Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to the Wellness and Healthy Lifestyle show on your
VOCM Now, here's your host.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Doctor Mike Wall.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
Welcome to the show. I'm your host, Doctor Mike Wall.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Today we're diving into organ donation, recovery and the incredible
journeys that follow. There's a story dis rooted right here
in Newfoland and Labrador that I wanted to share today.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
And joining us are.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Two amazing local guests, Jonathan Hickman, the only organ transplant
recipient from the province to compete in the World Transplant Games,
and his wife, Alison Hickman, who serves as the team's
national manager. We'll explore Jonathan's story of resilience from receiving
a kidney from his sister to competing internationally in the Games,
and now Allison helps build a support of inspiring global
(00:49):
community for transplant recipients and their families. We'll also uncover
how the Games offer more than competition. They offer connection, gratitude,
and a reminder to live life to the fullest. So
let's get to our conversation with Team Canada manager Alison Hickman. Hi. Also,
welcome to the show.
Speaker 4 (01:07):
Hi Mike, nice to see you.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
That's great to have you here. This is an interesting topic.
It's something I've been hearing about. I've known Jonathan quite
a while. But the World Transplant Games, this is a
really interesting thing that we actually have representation from right
here in New Flatta, Laborador, and with me today we
have the team manager. Why don't you give our listeners
a bit of a background on yourself.
Speaker 5 (01:28):
Okay, Well, I have been part of the Canadian Transplant
Association since twenty seventeen. I sit on the national board
as team manager for Canada. And what that means is
I travel with the team and represent the team on
the board, but I travel with the team to the
World Transplant Games in the summer and in the winter,
(01:51):
and I take care of the Canadian Transplant Games as well.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Wow, that's fantastic. So as team manager, tell me about
the team, like, who's it made up of?
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Where are the athletes from?
Speaker 2 (02:01):
From what you're saying this summer of winter, So I'm
thinking like Olympics here where there's different events associated with
each season.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
When you give me the lowdown.
Speaker 5 (02:07):
Well, we have the Summer Games every two years and
the Winter Games every two years, and they're on opposite years.
There are athletes that participate in both the Summer and
the Winter Games, and pretty.
Speaker 4 (02:20):
Much the athletes are made up of anybody from.
Speaker 5 (02:22):
Age four to eighty plots that has either been a
recipient of an organ donation or since the twenty sixteen
now living donors and donor families can also participate in
the Games.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Wow, how many athletes actually get to go to this event?
Speaker 5 (02:45):
Well, worldwide it's about probably twenty five hundred athletes. There's
no real limit on the number of athletes. Some countries
have limits, but last time there was fifty one countries
at the Summer Games. The Summer Games is busier than
the Winter Games because there's more different sports that are offered,
so it can accommodate more athletes, and there are obviously
(03:06):
more athletes that come from warm countries, so it had
its bigger draw.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Oh, that makes sense. Do they tend to choose locations
that have had big sporting events before that have this
infrastructure already in place.
Speaker 4 (03:17):
They do, but it moves around.
Speaker 5 (03:20):
At the last Games twenty twenty three, we were in
Australia and now this year in twenty twenty five will
be in Germany.
Speaker 4 (03:27):
So in Dresden, Germany for the Games and.
Speaker 5 (03:29):
Previous to that, we've been in Spain and we've been
in Newcastle. But the Games have been going on since
nineteen seventy eight, the Summer Games, so every two years
it's changed.
Speaker 4 (03:38):
Career.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
I can tell you everybody that's forty six years depending
on when they started, because that's how I was the
year I was born, So that's.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
Quite a while.
Speaker 4 (03:46):
While how many athletes do we bring from.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
Canada and how many come from Newfoundland?
Speaker 5 (03:50):
At Laboratory, we've only had one World athlete that's comes
from a Newfoundland and Labrador. But this year it looks
like I'm going to have fifty plus athletes going from Canada,
which will probably be the biggest number date. I think
the biggest number before was in Argentina and that was
around forty three athletes.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Well that's incredible. That's such an amazing opportunity to see people.
I guess the question would be like, what's it like
watching athletes? These people have overcome life threatening illness, They've
had surgeries, you know, in order to have organ transplant.
They get to now not only step out of a hospital,
they get to step on a world stage and compete.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
What's that like to watch as Avenger.
Speaker 5 (04:27):
It's honestly, every time I come back from the Games
that people ask me how did it go, I always say,
my heart is happy because it's such an inspiring event
to see these athletes participate, and everybody participates at their
own level, so sometimes it takes longer.
Speaker 4 (04:44):
Than a normal athlete would to run a race. And
then we have athletes that are.
Speaker 5 (04:49):
Actually on the world circuit for triathlons or mountain biking
or something like that, so they're super athletes and they're
still competing in what they were doing before they had
they're transplant.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Yeah, that's interesting, and so I think about it from
attending sporting events before seeing the Olympics on TV and
things like that, I'm guessing the vibe there or the
scene atmosphere is a little bit different. You know, if
we haven't attended the Games, how would you describe the atmosphere,
both in the form of competition but also in the
community of these people that had these shared experiences.
Speaker 5 (05:20):
Everybody's just always happy, like everybody's supportive, they're happy, they
are so encouraging. Everybody wants to hear everybody's story if
they want to tell it, if they don't want to
tell it that's fine too, but they're there cheering them on.
Speaker 4 (05:34):
Well, whether they're first or last in the race, everybody
cheers everybody.
Speaker 5 (05:39):
On, and it's it's really, it isn't very inspiring to
see them do that. And now that they've added the
living donors who can compete and the donor families, it's
added a whole different perspective to the game because.
Speaker 4 (05:51):
It's these donor families who have made this big.
Speaker 5 (05:53):
Choice to donate organs can see how beneficial it has
been for these recipients to get these organs, and they're
very thankful.
Speaker 4 (06:05):
It's they think their donors, their living donors all the
time through the whole.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
GAMEH that's wonderful. I think that's such an incredible thing.
I mean, you know, I think there's probably you say
it's very so happy, is that they're probably very appreciative
given the challenges that they face to now be able
to do something like this. I mean, I feel like
sometimes we get a little bit guilty of a bit
of pessimism in our lives. Is that what you get
when you come out of this, you just feel this
sense of optimism, wor you just get to see people
(06:30):
that are extremely grateful for the opportunity to be able
to move and compete and see the world at the
same time.
Speaker 5 (06:37):
Oh, it's exactly how you feel when you come back.
You're just you're just so happy. They're so happy. Everybody
wants to meet everybody. A big part of it is
that it's such a community that it doesn't matter where
you come from.
Speaker 4 (06:49):
People want to.
Speaker 5 (06:49):
Talk to you, get to know you. The countries mingle together.
They have events for everybody to tend together, and so
you can get to go know more and more people.
So and people go back every year to see It
becomes like a family, to see your transplant family, and
that's how they look at it.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
I love that. I love that. I bet that's changed
the way that you look at the importance of organ
donation and health in general. Really and further on too,
that topic of inspiration resilience. Obviously you weren't an organ recipient,
but being involved with it right here, has your perspective
changed on just why this is so critically important.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
Definitely, it definitely has.
Speaker 5 (07:35):
These people that are waiting for organ transplants, they may
have been healthy before, they have families, they have young kids,
they have.
Speaker 4 (07:44):
This will to continue and.
Speaker 5 (07:48):
Live their lives to the fullest, and having this organ
donation lets them live and continue this life beyond their illness.
And sometimes they waiting years for a transplant, or it
might have been a few months, and they know how
they're so sick when they're waiting that it's just so
(08:09):
they feel so inspired and so grateful at how well
they feel after it happens. That you see the importance
of giving that gift of life, because it really is
a gift of life to somebody else, and that's what
you're giving when you donate an organ.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
We're talking with Alison Hickman about the world transplanting games,
the power of community, and how organ donation is changing lives.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
We'll be right back after the break.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Welcome back. We're here with Alison Hickman talking about organ transplant,
the international competitions that athletes compete in and finding purpose
through sport.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
Let's get back to the interview.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
And that's one of the reasons I wanted to have
you on today. Number One, Obviously you're super active and
involved with the organization. You've got a huge amount of responsibility.
You're making a big difference with that. But also you
have lived experience, then we're gonna be interviewing here today
as well as your partner. And you were able to
see him recover from what you just talked about and
(09:10):
then be able to go and compete. So when you
were saying there was one athlete from New Flanta Labador,
I'm guessing that is Jonathan it Ends.
Speaker 6 (09:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Yeah, So how did that feel to see him be
able to compete and to get from this stage of
being sick I suppose to being at a stage where
he's actually competing and doing something he loves.
Speaker 5 (09:30):
Yeah, it's it's very it's it's always a very inspirational Yes,
he was. He was sick before and then since the
trans but I can barely keep up with him some days.
Speaker 4 (09:43):
He's very active now, he lives life to the fullest.
And going to see him compete for the first games,
actually the whole family went.
Speaker 5 (09:50):
We all participated in and watched him compete and it
was very, very emotional for him and emotional for the
rest of us in the family.
Speaker 4 (10:00):
But he Yeah, he's great. And just see his quality
of life.
Speaker 5 (10:04):
Now and how much he does and how much he
is able to be part of our kids' lives and
all that it's great, It's very inspirational.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
That's interesting, right, Sweet isn't sweet without sour. Sometimes those
experiences that are so challenging end up shaping and changing.
Speaker 3 (10:21):
The whole entire direction of how you go.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
And I'm sure he was grateful before, but you can't
help but think you've got to have a view of
a little bit more optimistic after you get through something
challenging like that.
Speaker 5 (10:31):
Oh, definitely. And I think they you have a different
perspective on life. I always say that that Oregon recipients
have a different perspective on life, and I think they
realized how special life is and how much you have
to value every day. I believe, I really believe, and
I see that when I go to the games that
(10:51):
they really value every day and are so grateful for
that extra time that they've had.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
That's that's true. And was there a stand up moment
for you? There's something you witnessed that really really moved
you and sort of encapsulated the whole thing in one story?
Speaker 5 (11:07):
I was thinking about this and I was going to add,
this is the story that comes to mind.
Speaker 4 (11:11):
We were just at the Canadian.
Speaker 5 (11:12):
Games this past summer in Ottawa, and when we are
the Canadian Games. It's you compete by prominence, so your
province is competing against other provinces. And one athlete who
was in a cycling time trial had a flat tire
on their bike and then put in another tire and
that blew up.
Speaker 4 (11:32):
They overinflated that so they had no bike.
Speaker 5 (11:35):
So another athlete took their shoes off, gave them their
bike and let them compete. And that's what it's all about.
Nobody minds helping somebody out. You're not trying to win
against somebody else. You're just trying to have everybody participateate
to the best of their ability.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Oh that's that's a great story, and that's really what
it's all about. I guess it's that whole You realize
it's a long game and and for somebody else that
might mean an awful lot. That's good karma right there too.
If there's anything, if the karma exists, that person get
good karma. Now, there's definitely people that are listening here
that have gone through an organ transplant and are thinking, hey,
(12:15):
maybe I can participate in something like us. It sounds
like something that's very inclusive, something that brings the community together.
How do people get involved as athletes or as volunteers
or even supporters to help you guys on your journey
or even participate.
Speaker 5 (12:27):
Okay, well, definitely you can reach out to either Jonathan
or myself. I can be found for the Canadian Transplant
Association website to let us know that you're interested in
getting involved. We do have a provincial board level here
and we're always.
Speaker 4 (12:44):
Looking for volunteers.
Speaker 5 (12:45):
We do have transplant trots that we have ongoing every
year as well as you know, if you're interested in
coming to the Games, I say, you know, it's a
great experience and there's something for everybody at the Games.
Speaker 4 (12:59):
And that's how I explain it to everybody.
Speaker 5 (13:01):
You can play darts, or you can do a triathlon,
and there's everything in between, and you can just participate.
Speaker 4 (13:09):
At your level. So there's something for everybody.
Speaker 5 (13:12):
You can volunteer at the Games, you can take part
in the Canadian Games.
Speaker 4 (13:16):
The Canadian Games. Supporters can now take part.
Speaker 5 (13:19):
So this was the first year this past summer that
I had competed at the Games because as a supporter,
even though I'm the team manager, I still had the
ability to compete. So I competed and so there's you know,
there's an opportunity for everybody, and it's nice to kind
of go and actually be able to take part too,
because Jonathan's always been taking part, So for me to
(13:39):
get an opportunity to take part in one event, it was.
Speaker 4 (13:42):
Kind of fun.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
What event did you've just stayed in?
Speaker 5 (13:45):
I did the one hundred meter dash just because I
was so busy organizing all the events. We had seventeen
different events at the Canadian Games that I said, if
I could run for thirty seconds, that's all I.
Speaker 4 (13:56):
Got time for.
Speaker 6 (13:57):
That's good.
Speaker 4 (13:58):
But yeah, by the time it's that up and ran
the race, I had thirty seconds.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
No, that's fantastic. Actually, that's an amazing thing. Just you know,
they're just like statistic to show that most people over
thirty five never sprint. So just by saying that we're
sprinting is like a huge thing for anybody at any
age in life. And I think that would be the
last thing would be that you have such a broad
perspective on different ways this impacts people. What message would
(14:22):
you share to people that are going through the same
transplant journey you guys went through as a family, and
you know, and and and may not see the possibility
of what we're talking about today because they're still in it.
Speaker 3 (14:35):
What's your advice to them?
Speaker 5 (14:37):
My advice to them is that you know, the journey
can be long, but there is such a positive outcome
on the other side after you receive your transplant.
Speaker 4 (14:54):
And it is a gift and value that gift give moving.
Speaker 5 (15:00):
To at whatever level you can get moving and get
active and appreciate and live every.
Speaker 4 (15:05):
Day to the fullest.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
That's fantastic advice. And I think I got one last question.
I'm pretty sure I know what the answer is. Should
we all be organ donors?
Speaker 5 (15:14):
Definitely, I'd say recycle those organs exactly.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
I'm not using them at that point, so that's great advice.
Thank you so much for sharing your perspective. It's really
interesting to hear how people are taking this challenging situation.
You guys are making is so positive, great community around
it as a shared accomplishment. Allison, thanks so much for
joining me today.
Speaker 4 (15:36):
Thanks Mike.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
That was Alison Hickman talking about the incredible impact of
the world transplant gains and the importance of living every
day to the fullest.
Speaker 3 (15:45):
When we come back, we'll chat with her husband, Jonathan Hickman.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
An organ transplant recipient from New flann And Labrador who
competes at the Games. He'll talk about his personal journey,
the gift of life and how he went from surviving
to thriving on the world stage.
Speaker 3 (15:58):
We'll be right back after the break.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
We're now joined by Jonathan Hickman, a kidney transplant recipient
a New Filena, Labrador sole athlete who competes at the
World Transplant Games. Jonathan's story is one of resilient's family
and finding new purpose through sport, and he's here to
share how receiving the gift of life changed everything. Let's
get to the conversation. Hey, Jonathan, welcome to the show.
Speaker 6 (16:23):
Oh thank you for having me.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
It's great to see you.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
And we're going to talk about something that we both
love and that's physical activity and sport. But we're going
to put a different lens on it today. I'm gonna
put a lens on it from a lived experience you
had when it comes to Oregon Transplant for our listeners,
I mean, I know you can give us a bit
of background on yourself.
Speaker 6 (16:40):
Oh my, I'm Jonathan Hickban and currently the director of
the Canadian Transplant Association, New Flan Chapter and ten years ago,
in January, I received a kidney transplant from my sister Kim.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
When you when you start at the beginning, we talk
about needing a transplant. You know, what was that like
to hear at a young age that you needed to
have this transplant? It had to be hard physically and emotionally.
Speaker 6 (17:06):
Well, it's interesting, so I did I So I don't have.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
A kidney disease.
Speaker 6 (17:13):
Uh, so I was. I was born in what was
called reflux. My bladder was sealed over from birth and
that my first operation was when I was one day old,
and then over the next three four years, I had
numerous operations. And we always knew that I was going
(17:35):
to need a kidney transplant at some point in time.
So for me, it was always just part of my life.
It was never a shock that, hey, you're going to
need a kidney transplant when you're forty five years old.
It was one day you will You'll need to get
a transplant. So for me it was a little differently.
(17:56):
I was always knew I was going to be getting
a transplant. It was just how long could I go
before I needed to find a donor? Who could help
me out.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Huh, that's interesting. And you know, you're the second person
I know whose sibling has been able to donate a
kidney to help them out of this situation. When you
did finally get to the point where they were like, okay,
you're going to need this transplant, you had to have
that conversation with your sister. How was that, like, how
what does that feel like to be able to say, Okay,
now I'm finally going to be facing this thing that's been.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
Sort of looming over me for a long time.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
You know.
Speaker 6 (18:28):
It was interesting because even though I had appeared for
a long time for it, and we knew well in
advance that Kim was going to be my donor, I
really struggled with taking her a kidney. And the struggle
was that what if she has two children and what
(18:50):
if down the road one of them needed a kidney
for whatever reason. In by me taking the kidney, I
would affect her family, her kids. So for me, it
was that was the biggest challenge. It wasn't a challenge
for my doctors, it wasn't a challenge for my sister,
was a challenge for anyone else in my family. Was
more just something that really played on my mind. But
(19:13):
once I decided, yes, this is it, I am gonna
avail of Kim's generous donation and have a transplant. After
that everything went smooth. Really, you know, the pressure, I
guess was off my mind. I had come to terms
with what could happen down the road. But you know,
as we know, who knows what's going to happen down
the road, So live and enjoy for today.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Yeah, and I guess that once the surgery is getting
ready to go and you've a prep for it.
Speaker 6 (19:39):
You kind of know what to expect.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
What happened after the surgery was at a relatively quick recoverage.
Did you notice in precent function? Were you're getting better automatically?
So it's it's funny because I had gone to the
bitter end. Uha was a very active person and I
never slowed down prior to but in the end, because
I had basically worn my kidneys.
Speaker 6 (20:02):
Out what was left of them, I was quite yellow
and at parents and so went for the surgery. Kim
went into the operating room at twelve o'clock and at
three o'clock I went into surgery.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
And then.
Speaker 6 (20:20):
My mother, my brother, and my wife Allison came to
visit me in the recovery room and they walked past me.
They didn't even recognize me because I had gone from
being yellow to normal color. And the doctors said afterwards
that as they were putting me back together, they saw
everything changed. My color changed, my raid, anything they had
(20:44):
me hooked up to keep an eyami was changing by
the minute. Then they said afterwards that a perfect transplant
is from a twin, and Kim and I, who are
four years apart from each other, were actually as close
to twins as they've seen in years. So I was
(21:04):
extremely lucky that first I was able to have a
living donor, and secondly that we were so closely matched
that I was recovering even before I was waking up
from the surgery.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
Oh the cow, that's unbelievable.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
And for people listening, you know, like your kidneys have
such a vital role in your body. They're filtering your blood,
they're pretting urine, they're helping your body get rid of
all these things that can be quite debilitating for people.
But then when you got back, you got better. You
said you were starting to get better like during the surgery,
So I'm sure your recovery was quite fast. And this
is where you got back into your physical activity, right,
(21:41):
And you've had quite a journey when it comes to
physical activity. When you started to feel better and you
were able to participate again, did you ever think that
you'd be going and competing at these games that were
international in nature or are you just happy to be
back out on the bike or.
Speaker 6 (21:55):
Whatever you were doing. I was just happy to be
able to get back into sports. I was happy that
when I did get back into sports because of because
of the kidney failure, I was was very tired. You know,
I play at sports and hockey be a good example,
and on the goalie and hockey that by the end
(22:17):
of the game, I had no energy very well skate
off the ice. And it was nice to get back
on the ice and actually play a game and be like, hey,
I might be able to play another game. And so
having having the fact that I wasn't so tired. You know,
it's funny I talk about it, and I say, and
my mother used to say, you know, you never knew
(22:39):
you were a sick child. My parents never treat me
anything differently. I was expected to do all the chores
around the house that the other family members were expected
to do. It was never a poor little jumping and
you know he can't do because of his kidneys. But
I didn't realize how much energy I lacked going until
(23:00):
after the transplant. And I joke about it all the time,
and they say to people, people I would say, are
there any side effects? And I tell them, yeah, there's
only one side effect, and that is I sleep with
one eye open. What do you mean, I said, Well,
before I used to combine from work and I'd have
to have a nap and then we'd have dinner and
I have a nap and I sleep, And after transplant,
(23:24):
me to my way, thou sid, let's swak the dogs,
let's go play another sport, Let's pick this up, Let's
do that. And I I always pray she was going
to cut the kidney out of me, so to the
point for making a very litharagic person to let's go,
let's go, let's go.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
Yeah, that's good, but you found an outlet for it, right. So, like,
I know you're very active and you play a variety
of different sports. You just mentioned hockey, or you're in cycling,
and you exercise regularly. How did you hear about the
World Transplant Games, like did this come up in your
radar because you were getting involved with organ transplant like
the societies and organizations locally or what.
Speaker 6 (23:57):
No, it it was interesting. I was invited to hike
now Krimagier with a bunch of friends and so when
I said that's perpect I'm going to do that, now
says I can do it. And so I saw my doctor.
Some of the medications you take for transplant or anti
rejection drugs actually are when you take medication for out
(24:21):
to sickness, can affect them. So that's been my doctor said,
did you ever hear about the Canadian Transplant Games? And
she told me about that that that definitely peaked my
interests of now I can go be active and compete
for team Newfland. And so that's how I got onto
(24:42):
the games. And I was actually over the founder that
there was no one who represented Newfland for the Canadian
Transplant Association, and I guess I got volunteered and volunteered
quite happily to be the representative for New Fland. And
then from there they're found out that pay not only
can you compete in the Canadian Games, that now you
(25:06):
can go and compete in the World Games.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
My first World Games were over in Spain and.
Speaker 6 (25:13):
That was for someone who I who I loved watching
sports on TV, International sports, Uh, you know, the Olympics
and that kind of stuff. To be able to represent
Canada and then not only in Canada, but and be
the new planning representative for Canada at the Games was
right up my alley. This was something that that I
(25:35):
couldn't wait to do. Canada new flying on the world stage.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Yeah, that's incredible, That's an incredible honor. And it's such
an interesting way, like such a turning a situation that
could be perceived as being so challenging into something that
becomes really beneficial for for your your health and making
yourself healthier. And so I'm guessing that you know, uh,
there's there's summer and winter games. You have to pick
a sport and then you have to start training. What
(26:00):
was that process like, how did you determine what you
wanted to compete in and then what did you do to.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
Get yourself prepared?
Speaker 6 (26:07):
Always I really in cross country in school, so running
was always a big part of my life. I pedaled, biked,
my bike never went away in the wintertime. I biked everywhere,
so biking has always been big for me. So when
I got, you know, for my first Games, it was
definitely going to be cycling, and it was going to
(26:28):
be running activities. My wife swam in university, my daughter swam,
my son swam, so I figured why not swimming too.
So I I was always able to do the dog
paddle amazingly, but now I had to refine to to
be a bit better. So I started to learn how
to swim, and I had my daughter teach me the
(26:49):
proper technique. So I decided I was going to swim
and bike and run, and that was going to be
my introy actually into into the game. But then since
then the Games opened up to having sprint triathlon, so
take all three events that I enjoy and make them
into one, which I always wanted to do one but
(27:11):
never felt like I could, So this was a great opportunity.
But then I got there and this started seeing all
these different events that I could be part of, and
so I've expended. I've expanded to snowshoe racing and expanded
into learning the curl and my newest one as a
(27:34):
I don't know why, but I always want to throw javelin,
and so I decided when I went to the Canadian
Games last summer, I was going to learn how to
throw a javelin. And I've now taught myself, with some
help from other people, how to throw a javelin. In fact,
this summer coming up, we're in Germany for the World
Games and I am going to throw a javelin internationally.
(27:55):
So for someone who can, who's never thought about being
a javelin athlete, this has given me an opportunity to
do sports that I want to get to dream about
and watch. On TV.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
We're talking with Jonathan Hickman about an incredible journey from
transplant surgery to international competition and how he's now inspiring
others to get active and live life to the fullest.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
We'll be right back after the break.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
As you're listening to what we broadcast up The Wellness
and Healthy Lifestyle Show with Doctor Mike Wall. Listen live
Thursday nights at seven pm and Sunday's at four pm.
Speaker 3 (28:34):
Welcome back.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
We're here with Jonathan Hickman talking about his life after
transplant and what it means to represent New Flanna, Labrador
and Canada on the.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
World sporting stage. Let's get back to the interview.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
Quite often we don't realize how lucky we are until
we get faced with something and you it's almost like
you woke up after a long period of time of
not being able to do these things, and now you're like,
I'm free to be able to do it. I feel
like other people only realize this because they is that function.
They realize I'll ever get it back. You kind of
with the opposite way, And I think that's really fascinating.
What would you encourage people that actually have this full
(29:07):
function now that may not be taking advantage of it
when it comes to being active.
Speaker 6 (29:12):
You know, I just think that for me, it's it's
a I don't want to say a second chance in
life because I had. You know, my life has always
been I've enjoyed my life. I've never regretted having all
these surgeries.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
You know.
Speaker 6 (29:28):
The funny thing is is that I joke about it.
My lucky numbers thirteen and my transplant was my thirteenth operation.
But I never I never I never felt like I
had a bad life because I was limited to some
of the things I could do. But this is this
open myself up to so many different opportunities. But and
(29:51):
what's really becoming interesting and fun is because when you
travel to the World Games or even the Canadian Games.
I have friends all over Canada now who you know,
we talk and we meet up once a year or
every second year in Canada, every second year in the
World Games. I've got friends in Australia. I got friends
from England, I got friends from Germany, and we meet
(30:13):
at the Games. And that's really been kind of a
really interesting part of it is the people you meet
that have similar issues that you've had. You know, so
you know, I was a kidney recifcan but you know,
there's hurt, there's lungs, there's liver, there's stem cell, there's corny.
(30:35):
There's so many different athletes that come to the Games
and you hear their stories in it and some of
the issues that they went through and how their life
has changed. I always sometimes think that mine wasn't that
exciting when you started listening to some of these, you know,
other athletes who were waiting for a deceased donor and
(30:55):
I didn't know, You didn't know if they were going
to to be able to be a lot know, live
from one day to next. And now here they are
traveling the world, as are their their teams, and like
you say, we've got great friends because of it.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
Creating community, right, And I think the community is probably
the most underestimated aspect of health, and we have that
here a new flat of laborator. It's one of the
reasons why we have the health we do have, because
a lot of the time we may fall short on
some of the scales when it comes to illness, but
you know, overall, we're quite happy people.
Speaker 3 (31:28):
We have that community.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
I think that's so important, and I think it's really
great that you were able to take this new lease
on life, this physical activity that you value so much,
and then turn it into a community and then try
new things like javelin. Like you said, things you've played
done your whole life, but now you're doing new things.
When you think about how it's benefited you personally, like
outside of the competition itself you just mentioned friends and
(31:49):
everything else, has it actually changed you as a person
to be able to complete in this type of event.
Speaker 6 (31:54):
Yeah, you know, I think in some ways has given
me more self confidence. And you know I was always
like I say, Mom, Dad never treat me as a
sick child. But you know, there were certain sports I
wanted to play that probably weren't the right sports for
someone who whose kidneys were not a great shape to
begin with. And so I sometimes fel like I might
(32:16):
have been held back for the right reasons. And now
I'm you know, basically, whatever I can do, I'll do.
You know, I've I've got a a second and second
lease on life, and I'm going to go out and
I'm going to do whatever i can to get joyed.
And and you know, thanks to people like yourself, I'm
(32:38):
out here to promote or in donation and which but
even more importantly, after the don't after the transplant, what happens.
And it's it's interesting because you know, I've known people
who have had transplants and have been, like me, very active,
out going, love to talk about love to promote it.
And I have other people and friends who I've had
(33:00):
transplants who will never tell anyone had asurance plant. And
that's a second that was my previous life, and I
don't talk about it. Yes, organ donation is so important,
and I will always talk about the importance of signing
your MCP cord. I will always talk about how you
have to have a regular conversation with family members telling
them this is your final wish in life or what
(33:21):
I really love talking about is being part of the games,
being part of the community after the transplant, and you know,
getting out and.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
Celebrating the year second.
Speaker 6 (33:34):
And I don't want to keep calling the second life
because it's not what the opportunity you have to to
just grow so much more, meet people and hang out
with people that have similar similar stories that you do.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
Maybe it's maybe the better way of phrasing it is
to take full advantage of the gift you've been given. Yeah,
and there you goo and be grateful for it. And
I think that's that's a really nice message.
Speaker 6 (33:57):
And see, and that's what they call it, you know,
it's the gift of life when someone it receives an
organ it's it's the gift of life you're getting.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
So yeah, it's a good way to put it, the gift. Yeah,
and I'd be remissed. You know that you obviously are
involved with organization here in the province. How can people
make sure that they are an organ donor? And why
should they make sure that they are because I am well, you.
Speaker 6 (34:19):
Know, as I said, you know on sign your MCP
CURD and make sure it is known by your families
because unfortunately, even if you sign your MCP card, a
family member can still overrule the decision in your past,
you know. And so you're in the hospital and unfortunately
(34:41):
something has happened to you. The doctors will ask the
question to your family members. Are your the husband, wife,
whoever want to donate the organs? Are you still okay
with that? And if they say no, it's all over.
Speaker 2 (34:58):
They can't continue.
Speaker 6 (35:00):
So you know, if you have signed your MCT KURD,
thank you very much, but have this conversation yearly, relying people.
This is your final wish and don't don't have it
taken away from you. And then, you know, for anyone
thinking about why should I some of the stats out there,
you are eight times more likely to need an organ
than to donate an organ. And the amount of people
(35:25):
you can save as an organ donor between all your organs,
stem cells and all the other things you can affect
up to twenty families, I believe is the number to
do it. And you know, some people say, oh, I'm
too old. I know. The oldest organ donation in Canada.
(35:46):
It was made by an eighty three year old person.
There you go. And actually it's funny. We have a
lady out of Quebec who had a liver transplant and
cheeky Pete and I last, I think her organ is
now one hundred and thirty one hundred and forty years old.
Speaker 7 (36:05):
Until the person was so old when they don'ated she
was so young when she received it that she we
figured for what we know, she's the has the longest
organ in Canada.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
That's unbelievable.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
Wow, that's an interesting story.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
That's fantastic. One last question I'll ask you before we
put up your found It's really fascinating conversation from somebody
who didn't have health at one point or dealt with
health challenges. What does the work health mean to you?
Speaker 6 (36:36):
You know, what does work health need mean to me?
You know what health means one of the different things.
I guess for me, health is being able to compete
in any sport I want to try, and I'm willing
to try any sports. So when you listeners say hey
we got a new sport that so MU should try,
I'm probably your victim.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
But health is also.
Speaker 6 (36:54):
You know, being being out there in your community talk
about things and you know, for me, I think I
have a great story in organ donation, in life after donation,
I think.
Speaker 3 (37:05):
That has helped.
Speaker 6 (37:06):
And on top of that, the mental health of being
able to be active and be out in the community
is important to me, and I think that helps me
in my business career as well, to know that I've
got more to offer than just you know, the fresh
eye work in but also in the ability to help
(37:29):
others understand it, be part of it. And it makes
me feel good. And you know, I guess, like anything
in life, that it makes you feel good, you should
do it and do more of it. So now this
is why I really thank you for rearing me get
on and tell my story to whatever scent and hopefully
that someone may be sitting there saying I've had an
organ donation and I'd love to be more involved and
(37:52):
more active and how do I find out more Well, I,
as you've just heard for the last few minutes, I
love to talk about this stuff, so I'm always an
open air impact. It's funny friend of mine, his good
friend in Ottawa, was doning his kidney to his wife
and they asked me to talk to And I've never
(38:13):
met these people I don't know what they look like,
but I on the phone for about an hour just
talking about or donation and life after organ donation. And
I think that's the That's the thing sometimes people think,
is what happens after? What happened? What happens to me afterwards?
And you know what's also interesting, You know, these games
(38:33):
have all kinds of different sports. I think the toughest
one is the springt triathlant, but we do lawn bowling,
we do darts, we do ky walks. So it's it
really opens itself to people of all different athletic abilities.
And yeah, and so that's I think what makes it
so much fun is that you go and compete against
(38:57):
people all over the world, but you don't It's you
don't have to win the medal. You just get to
go and enjoy the community that you're now proard of.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
Yeah, exactly, you've all won if you're at those games,
because you've been in the recipients of a very special gift.
And I think that your definition of health is perfect.
I think that health is the ability to do what
you want in life. It's about being able to engage
and contribute and give back. And you've done a great
job doing that today and sharing your story. John, thanks
so much for joining me today was really great chat.
Speaker 6 (39:26):
No, thank you very much Mike for letting me tell
my story and hopefully maybe get some other people in
a New Fland who say I I would like to
join the new Flann team and compete. And it looks
like we're going to be in Quebec next in the
summer of twenty twenty six, so I'd love to have
some fellow New Flanders compete with me to do the
(39:47):
problems proud.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
Well, that's perfect. We'll have you guys back on to
show off all your hardware when you come back.
Speaker 6 (39:53):
Thanks so much, Thank you very much, Mike.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
I want to thank Jonathan and Alison Hickman for joining
us today inspiring learning about the road to recovery from
organ transplant all the way to competition on the world stage.
We've gained insights into the life changing impact of organ donation,
the recovery journey after transplant, and how physical activity and
even international competition can play a powerful role in healing
(40:17):
and hope. It was especially moving hearing how Jonathan, the
only organ transplant recipient from new plantat Labrador to compete
at the World Games has turned his gift of life
into a mission of advocacy and action. For those interested
in learning more about organ donation or how to get
involved with the Canadian Transplant Association, you can reach out
to Jonathan or Alison Hickman through the Canadian Transplant Association
(40:39):
website at www dot Canadian transplant dot com. Whether you're
a transplant recipient looking to compete, a living donor looking
to learn more, or someone who wants to become an
organ donor, there's a place for everyone when it comes
to giving the gift of life. Well, thanks for tuning in.
I'm your host, doctor Mike Wall. We'll see it back.
(41:00):
Thank here next week for another episode of the Wellnesce
and Healthy Lifestyle Show on the Stingray Podcast Network and
your VIOCM
Welcome to the Wellness and Healthy Lifestyle show on your
VOCM Now, here's your host.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Doctor Mike Wall.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
Welcome to the show. I'm your host, Doctor Mike Wall.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Today we're diving into organ donation, recovery and the incredible
journeys that follow. There's a story dis rooted right here
in Newfoland and Labrador that I wanted to share today.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
And joining us are.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Two amazing local guests, Jonathan Hickman, the only organ transplant
recipient from the province to compete in the World Transplant Games,
and his wife, Alison Hickman, who serves as the team's
national manager. We'll explore Jonathan's story of resilience from receiving
a kidney from his sister to competing internationally in the Games,
and now Allison helps build a support of inspiring global
(00:49):
community for transplant recipients and their families. We'll also uncover
how the Games offer more than competition. They offer connection, gratitude,
and a reminder to live life to the fullest. So
let's get to our conversation with Team Canada manager Alison Hickman. Hi. Also,
welcome to the show.
Speaker 4 (01:07):
Hi Mike, nice to see you.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
That's great to have you here. This is an interesting topic.
It's something I've been hearing about. I've known Jonathan quite
a while. But the World Transplant Games, this is a
really interesting thing that we actually have representation from right
here in New Flatta, Laborador, and with me today we
have the team manager. Why don't you give our listeners
a bit of a background on yourself.
Speaker 5 (01:28):
Okay, Well, I have been part of the Canadian Transplant
Association since twenty seventeen. I sit on the national board
as team manager for Canada. And what that means is
I travel with the team and represent the team on
the board, but I travel with the team to the
World Transplant Games in the summer and in the winter,
(01:51):
and I take care of the Canadian Transplant Games as well.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Wow, that's fantastic. So as team manager, tell me about
the team, like, who's it made up of?
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Where are the athletes from?
Speaker 2 (02:01):
From what you're saying this summer of winter, So I'm
thinking like Olympics here where there's different events associated with
each season.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
When you give me the lowdown.
Speaker 5 (02:07):
Well, we have the Summer Games every two years and
the Winter Games every two years, and they're on opposite years.
There are athletes that participate in both the Summer and
the Winter Games, and pretty.
Speaker 4 (02:20):
Much the athletes are made up of anybody from.
Speaker 5 (02:22):
Age four to eighty plots that has either been a
recipient of an organ donation or since the twenty sixteen
now living donors and donor families can also participate in
the Games.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Wow, how many athletes actually get to go to this event?
Speaker 5 (02:45):
Well, worldwide it's about probably twenty five hundred athletes. There's
no real limit on the number of athletes. Some countries
have limits, but last time there was fifty one countries
at the Summer Games. The Summer Games is busier than
the Winter Games because there's more different sports that are offered,
so it can accommodate more athletes, and there are obviously
(03:06):
more athletes that come from warm countries, so it had
its bigger draw.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Oh, that makes sense. Do they tend to choose locations
that have had big sporting events before that have this
infrastructure already in place.
Speaker 4 (03:17):
They do, but it moves around.
Speaker 5 (03:20):
At the last Games twenty twenty three, we were in
Australia and now this year in twenty twenty five will
be in Germany.
Speaker 4 (03:27):
So in Dresden, Germany for the Games and.
Speaker 5 (03:29):
Previous to that, we've been in Spain and we've been
in Newcastle. But the Games have been going on since
nineteen seventy eight, the Summer Games, so every two years
it's changed.
Speaker 4 (03:38):
Career.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
I can tell you everybody that's forty six years depending
on when they started, because that's how I was the
year I was born, So that's.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
Quite a while.
Speaker 4 (03:46):
While how many athletes do we bring from.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
Canada and how many come from Newfoundland?
Speaker 5 (03:50):
At Laboratory, we've only had one World athlete that's comes
from a Newfoundland and Labrador. But this year it looks
like I'm going to have fifty plus athletes going from Canada,
which will probably be the biggest number date. I think
the biggest number before was in Argentina and that was
around forty three athletes.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Well that's incredible. That's such an amazing opportunity to see people.
I guess the question would be like, what's it like
watching athletes? These people have overcome life threatening illness, They've
had surgeries, you know, in order to have organ transplant.
They get to now not only step out of a hospital,
they get to step on a world stage and compete.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
What's that like to watch as Avenger.
Speaker 5 (04:27):
It's honestly, every time I come back from the Games
that people ask me how did it go, I always say,
my heart is happy because it's such an inspiring event
to see these athletes participate, and everybody participates at their
own level, so sometimes it takes longer.
Speaker 4 (04:44):
Than a normal athlete would to run a race. And
then we have athletes that are.
Speaker 5 (04:49):
Actually on the world circuit for triathlons or mountain biking
or something like that, so they're super athletes and they're
still competing in what they were doing before they had
they're transplant.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Yeah, that's interesting, and so I think about it from
attending sporting events before seeing the Olympics on TV and
things like that, I'm guessing the vibe there or the
scene atmosphere is a little bit different. You know, if
we haven't attended the Games, how would you describe the atmosphere,
both in the form of competition but also in the
community of these people that had these shared experiences.
Speaker 5 (05:20):
Everybody's just always happy, like everybody's supportive, they're happy, they
are so encouraging. Everybody wants to hear everybody's story if
they want to tell it, if they don't want to
tell it that's fine too, but they're there cheering them on.
Speaker 4 (05:34):
Well, whether they're first or last in the race, everybody
cheers everybody.
Speaker 5 (05:39):
On, and it's it's really, it isn't very inspiring to
see them do that. And now that they've added the
living donors who can compete and the donor families, it's
added a whole different perspective to the game because.
Speaker 4 (05:51):
It's these donor families who have made this big.
Speaker 5 (05:53):
Choice to donate organs can see how beneficial it has
been for these recipients to get these organs, and they're
very thankful.
Speaker 4 (06:05):
It's they think their donors, their living donors all the
time through the whole.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
GAMEH that's wonderful. I think that's such an incredible thing.
I mean, you know, I think there's probably you say
it's very so happy, is that they're probably very appreciative
given the challenges that they face to now be able
to do something like this. I mean, I feel like
sometimes we get a little bit guilty of a bit
of pessimism in our lives. Is that what you get
when you come out of this, you just feel this
sense of optimism, wor you just get to see people
(06:30):
that are extremely grateful for the opportunity to be able
to move and compete and see the world at the
same time.
Speaker 5 (06:37):
Oh, it's exactly how you feel when you come back.
You're just you're just so happy. They're so happy. Everybody
wants to meet everybody. A big part of it is
that it's such a community that it doesn't matter where
you come from.
Speaker 4 (06:49):
People want to.
Speaker 5 (06:49):
Talk to you, get to know you. The countries mingle together.
They have events for everybody to tend together, and so
you can get to go know more and more people.
So and people go back every year to see It
becomes like a family, to see your transplant family, and
that's how they look at it.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
I love that. I love that. I bet that's changed
the way that you look at the importance of organ
donation and health in general. Really and further on too,
that topic of inspiration resilience. Obviously you weren't an organ recipient,
but being involved with it right here, has your perspective
changed on just why this is so critically important.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
Definitely, it definitely has.
Speaker 5 (07:35):
These people that are waiting for organ transplants, they may
have been healthy before, they have families, they have young kids,
they have.
Speaker 4 (07:44):
This will to continue and.
Speaker 5 (07:48):
Live their lives to the fullest, and having this organ
donation lets them live and continue this life beyond their illness.
And sometimes they waiting years for a transplant, or it
might have been a few months, and they know how
they're so sick when they're waiting that it's just so
(08:09):
they feel so inspired and so grateful at how well
they feel after it happens. That you see the importance
of giving that gift of life, because it really is
a gift of life to somebody else, and that's what
you're giving when you donate an organ.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
We're talking with Alison Hickman about the world transplanting games,
the power of community, and how organ donation is changing lives.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
We'll be right back after the break.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Welcome back. We're here with Alison Hickman talking about organ transplant,
the international competitions that athletes compete in and finding purpose
through sport.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
Let's get back to the interview.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
And that's one of the reasons I wanted to have
you on today. Number One, Obviously you're super active and
involved with the organization. You've got a huge amount of responsibility.
You're making a big difference with that. But also you
have lived experience, then we're gonna be interviewing here today
as well as your partner. And you were able to
see him recover from what you just talked about and
(09:10):
then be able to go and compete. So when you
were saying there was one athlete from New Flanta Labador,
I'm guessing that is Jonathan it Ends.
Speaker 6 (09:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Yeah, So how did that feel to see him be
able to compete and to get from this stage of
being sick I suppose to being at a stage where
he's actually competing and doing something he loves.
Speaker 5 (09:30):
Yeah, it's it's very it's it's always a very inspirational Yes,
he was. He was sick before and then since the
trans but I can barely keep up with him some days.
Speaker 4 (09:43):
He's very active now, he lives life to the fullest.
And going to see him compete for the first games,
actually the whole family went.
Speaker 5 (09:50):
We all participated in and watched him compete and it
was very, very emotional for him and emotional for the
rest of us in the family.
Speaker 4 (10:00):
But he Yeah, he's great. And just see his quality
of life.
Speaker 5 (10:04):
Now and how much he does and how much he
is able to be part of our kids' lives and
all that it's great, It's very inspirational.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
That's interesting, right, Sweet isn't sweet without sour. Sometimes those
experiences that are so challenging end up shaping and changing.
Speaker 3 (10:21):
The whole entire direction of how you go.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
And I'm sure he was grateful before, but you can't
help but think you've got to have a view of
a little bit more optimistic after you get through something
challenging like that.
Speaker 5 (10:31):
Oh, definitely. And I think they you have a different
perspective on life. I always say that that Oregon recipients
have a different perspective on life, and I think they
realized how special life is and how much you have
to value every day. I believe, I really believe, and
I see that when I go to the games that
(10:51):
they really value every day and are so grateful for
that extra time that they've had.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
That's that's true. And was there a stand up moment
for you? There's something you witnessed that really really moved
you and sort of encapsulated the whole thing in one story?
Speaker 5 (11:07):
I was thinking about this and I was going to add,
this is the story that comes to mind.
Speaker 4 (11:11):
We were just at the Canadian.
Speaker 5 (11:12):
Games this past summer in Ottawa, and when we are
the Canadian Games. It's you compete by prominence, so your
province is competing against other provinces. And one athlete who
was in a cycling time trial had a flat tire
on their bike and then put in another tire and
that blew up.
Speaker 4 (11:32):
They overinflated that so they had no bike.
Speaker 5 (11:35):
So another athlete took their shoes off, gave them their
bike and let them compete. And that's what it's all about.
Nobody minds helping somebody out. You're not trying to win
against somebody else. You're just trying to have everybody participateate
to the best of their ability.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Oh that's that's a great story, and that's really what
it's all about. I guess it's that whole You realize
it's a long game and and for somebody else that
might mean an awful lot. That's good karma right there too.
If there's anything, if the karma exists, that person get
good karma. Now, there's definitely people that are listening here
that have gone through an organ transplant and are thinking, hey,
(12:15):
maybe I can participate in something like us. It sounds
like something that's very inclusive, something that brings the community together.
How do people get involved as athletes or as volunteers
or even supporters to help you guys on your journey
or even participate.
Speaker 5 (12:27):
Okay, well, definitely you can reach out to either Jonathan
or myself. I can be found for the Canadian Transplant
Association website to let us know that you're interested in
getting involved. We do have a provincial board level here
and we're always.
Speaker 4 (12:44):
Looking for volunteers.
Speaker 5 (12:45):
We do have transplant trots that we have ongoing every
year as well as you know, if you're interested in
coming to the Games, I say, you know, it's a
great experience and there's something for everybody at the Games.
Speaker 4 (12:59):
And that's how I explain it to everybody.
Speaker 5 (13:01):
You can play darts, or you can do a triathlon,
and there's everything in between, and you can just participate.
Speaker 4 (13:09):
At your level. So there's something for everybody.
Speaker 5 (13:12):
You can volunteer at the Games, you can take part
in the Canadian Games.
Speaker 4 (13:16):
The Canadian Games. Supporters can now take part.
Speaker 5 (13:19):
So this was the first year this past summer that
I had competed at the Games because as a supporter,
even though I'm the team manager, I still had the
ability to compete. So I competed and so there's you know,
there's an opportunity for everybody, and it's nice to kind
of go and actually be able to take part too,
because Jonathan's always been taking part, So for me to
(13:39):
get an opportunity to take part in one event, it was.
Speaker 4 (13:42):
Kind of fun.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
What event did you've just stayed in?
Speaker 5 (13:45):
I did the one hundred meter dash just because I
was so busy organizing all the events. We had seventeen
different events at the Canadian Games that I said, if
I could run for thirty seconds, that's all I.
Speaker 4 (13:56):
Got time for.
Speaker 6 (13:57):
That's good.
Speaker 4 (13:58):
But yeah, by the time it's that up and ran
the race, I had thirty seconds.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
No, that's fantastic. Actually, that's an amazing thing. Just you know,
they're just like statistic to show that most people over
thirty five never sprint. So just by saying that we're
sprinting is like a huge thing for anybody at any
age in life. And I think that would be the
last thing would be that you have such a broad
perspective on different ways this impacts people. What message would
(14:22):
you share to people that are going through the same
transplant journey you guys went through as a family, and
you know, and and and may not see the possibility
of what we're talking about today because they're still in it.
Speaker 3 (14:35):
What's your advice to them?
Speaker 5 (14:37):
My advice to them is that you know, the journey
can be long, but there is such a positive outcome
on the other side after you receive your transplant.
Speaker 4 (14:54):
And it is a gift and value that gift give moving.
Speaker 5 (15:00):
To at whatever level you can get moving and get
active and appreciate and live every.
Speaker 4 (15:05):
Day to the fullest.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
That's fantastic advice. And I think I got one last question.
I'm pretty sure I know what the answer is. Should
we all be organ donors?
Speaker 5 (15:14):
Definitely, I'd say recycle those organs exactly.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
I'm not using them at that point, so that's great advice.
Thank you so much for sharing your perspective. It's really
interesting to hear how people are taking this challenging situation.
You guys are making is so positive, great community around
it as a shared accomplishment. Allison, thanks so much for
joining me today.
Speaker 4 (15:36):
Thanks Mike.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
That was Alison Hickman talking about the incredible impact of
the world transplant gains and the importance of living every
day to the fullest.
Speaker 3 (15:45):
When we come back, we'll chat with her husband, Jonathan Hickman.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
An organ transplant recipient from New flann And Labrador who
competes at the Games. He'll talk about his personal journey,
the gift of life and how he went from surviving
to thriving on the world stage.
Speaker 3 (15:58):
We'll be right back after the break.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
We're now joined by Jonathan Hickman, a kidney transplant recipient
a New Filena, Labrador sole athlete who competes at the
World Transplant Games. Jonathan's story is one of resilient's family
and finding new purpose through sport, and he's here to
share how receiving the gift of life changed everything. Let's
get to the conversation. Hey, Jonathan, welcome to the show.
Speaker 6 (16:23):
Oh thank you for having me.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
It's great to see you.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
And we're going to talk about something that we both
love and that's physical activity and sport. But we're going
to put a different lens on it today. I'm gonna
put a lens on it from a lived experience you
had when it comes to Oregon Transplant for our listeners,
I mean, I know you can give us a bit
of background on yourself.
Speaker 6 (16:40):
Oh my, I'm Jonathan Hickban and currently the director of
the Canadian Transplant Association, New Flan Chapter and ten years ago,
in January, I received a kidney transplant from my sister Kim.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
When you when you start at the beginning, we talk
about needing a transplant. You know, what was that like
to hear at a young age that you needed to
have this transplant? It had to be hard physically and emotionally.
Speaker 6 (17:06):
Well, it's interesting, so I did I So I don't have.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
A kidney disease.
Speaker 6 (17:13):
Uh, so I was. I was born in what was
called reflux. My bladder was sealed over from birth and
that my first operation was when I was one day old,
and then over the next three four years, I had
numerous operations. And we always knew that I was going
(17:35):
to need a kidney transplant at some point in time.
So for me, it was always just part of my life.
It was never a shock that, hey, you're going to
need a kidney transplant when you're forty five years old.
It was one day you will You'll need to get
a transplant. So for me it was a little differently.
(17:56):
I was always knew I was going to be getting
a transplant. It was just how long could I go
before I needed to find a donor? Who could help
me out.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Huh, that's interesting. And you know, you're the second person
I know whose sibling has been able to donate a
kidney to help them out of this situation. When you
did finally get to the point where they were like, okay,
you're going to need this transplant, you had to have
that conversation with your sister. How was that, like, how
what does that feel like to be able to say, Okay,
now I'm finally going to be facing this thing that's been.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
Sort of looming over me for a long time.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
You know.
Speaker 6 (18:28):
It was interesting because even though I had appeared for
a long time for it, and we knew well in
advance that Kim was going to be my donor, I
really struggled with taking her a kidney. And the struggle
was that what if she has two children and what
(18:50):
if down the road one of them needed a kidney
for whatever reason. In by me taking the kidney, I
would affect her family, her kids. So for me, it
was that was the biggest challenge. It wasn't a challenge
for my doctors, it wasn't a challenge for my sister,
was a challenge for anyone else in my family. Was
more just something that really played on my mind. But
(19:13):
once I decided, yes, this is it, I am gonna
avail of Kim's generous donation and have a transplant. After
that everything went smooth. Really, you know, the pressure, I
guess was off my mind. I had come to terms
with what could happen down the road. But you know,
as we know, who knows what's going to happen down
the road, So live and enjoy for today.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Yeah, and I guess that once the surgery is getting
ready to go and you've a prep for it.
Speaker 6 (19:39):
You kind of know what to expect.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
What happened after the surgery was at a relatively quick recoverage.
Did you notice in precent function? Were you're getting better automatically?
So it's it's funny because I had gone to the
bitter end. Uha was a very active person and I
never slowed down prior to but in the end, because
I had basically worn my kidneys.
Speaker 6 (20:02):
Out what was left of them, I was quite yellow
and at parents and so went for the surgery. Kim
went into the operating room at twelve o'clock and at
three o'clock I went into surgery.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
And then.
Speaker 6 (20:20):
My mother, my brother, and my wife Allison came to
visit me in the recovery room and they walked past me.
They didn't even recognize me because I had gone from
being yellow to normal color. And the doctors said afterwards
that as they were putting me back together, they saw
everything changed. My color changed, my raid, anything they had
(20:44):
me hooked up to keep an eyami was changing by
the minute. Then they said afterwards that a perfect transplant
is from a twin, and Kim and I, who are
four years apart from each other, were actually as close
to twins as they've seen in years. So I was
(21:04):
extremely lucky that first I was able to have a
living donor, and secondly that we were so closely matched
that I was recovering even before I was waking up
from the surgery.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
Oh the cow, that's unbelievable.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
And for people listening, you know, like your kidneys have
such a vital role in your body. They're filtering your blood,
they're pretting urine, they're helping your body get rid of
all these things that can be quite debilitating for people.
But then when you got back, you got better. You
said you were starting to get better like during the surgery,
So I'm sure your recovery was quite fast. And this
is where you got back into your physical activity, right,
(21:41):
And you've had quite a journey when it comes to
physical activity. When you started to feel better and you
were able to participate again, did you ever think that
you'd be going and competing at these games that were
international in nature or are you just happy to be
back out on the bike or.
Speaker 6 (21:55):
Whatever you were doing. I was just happy to be
able to get back into sports. I was happy that
when I did get back into sports because of because
of the kidney failure, I was was very tired. You know,
I play at sports and hockey be a good example,
and on the goalie and hockey that by the end
(22:17):
of the game, I had no energy very well skate
off the ice. And it was nice to get back
on the ice and actually play a game and be like, hey,
I might be able to play another game. And so
having having the fact that I wasn't so tired. You know,
it's funny I talk about it, and I say, and
my mother used to say, you know, you never knew
(22:39):
you were a sick child. My parents never treat me
anything differently. I was expected to do all the chores
around the house that the other family members were expected
to do. It was never a poor little jumping and
you know he can't do because of his kidneys. But
I didn't realize how much energy I lacked going until
(23:00):
after the transplant. And I joke about it all the time,
and they say to people, people I would say, are
there any side effects? And I tell them, yeah, there's
only one side effect, and that is I sleep with
one eye open. What do you mean, I said, Well,
before I used to combine from work and I'd have
to have a nap and then we'd have dinner and
I have a nap and I sleep, And after transplant,
(23:24):
me to my way, thou sid, let's swak the dogs,
let's go play another sport, Let's pick this up, Let's
do that. And I I always pray she was going
to cut the kidney out of me, so to the
point for making a very litharagic person to let's go,
let's go, let's go.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
Yeah, that's good, but you found an outlet for it, right. So, like,
I know you're very active and you play a variety
of different sports. You just mentioned hockey, or you're in cycling,
and you exercise regularly. How did you hear about the
World Transplant Games, like did this come up in your
radar because you were getting involved with organ transplant like
the societies and organizations locally or what.
Speaker 6 (23:57):
No, it it was interesting. I was invited to hike
now Krimagier with a bunch of friends and so when
I said that's perpect I'm going to do that, now
says I can do it. And so I saw my doctor.
Some of the medications you take for transplant or anti
rejection drugs actually are when you take medication for out
(24:21):
to sickness, can affect them. So that's been my doctor said,
did you ever hear about the Canadian Transplant Games? And
she told me about that that that definitely peaked my
interests of now I can go be active and compete
for team Newfland. And so that's how I got onto
(24:42):
the games. And I was actually over the founder that
there was no one who represented Newfland for the Canadian
Transplant Association, and I guess I got volunteered and volunteered
quite happily to be the representative for New Fland. And
then from there they're found out that pay not only
can you compete in the Canadian Games, that now you
(25:06):
can go and compete in the World Games.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
My first World Games were over in Spain and.
Speaker 6 (25:13):
That was for someone who I who I loved watching
sports on TV, International sports, Uh, you know, the Olympics
and that kind of stuff. To be able to represent
Canada and then not only in Canada, but and be
the new planning representative for Canada at the Games was
right up my alley. This was something that that I
(25:35):
couldn't wait to do. Canada new flying on the world stage.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Yeah, that's incredible, That's an incredible honor. And it's such
an interesting way, like such a turning a situation that
could be perceived as being so challenging into something that
becomes really beneficial for for your your health and making
yourself healthier. And so I'm guessing that you know, uh,
there's there's summer and winter games. You have to pick
a sport and then you have to start training. What
(26:00):
was that process like, how did you determine what you
wanted to compete in and then what did you do to.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
Get yourself prepared?
Speaker 6 (26:07):
Always I really in cross country in school, so running
was always a big part of my life. I pedaled, biked,
my bike never went away in the wintertime. I biked everywhere,
so biking has always been big for me. So when
I got, you know, for my first Games, it was
definitely going to be cycling, and it was going to
(26:28):
be running activities. My wife swam in university, my daughter swam,
my son swam, so I figured why not swimming too.
So I I was always able to do the dog
paddle amazingly, but now I had to refine to to
be a bit better. So I started to learn how
to swim, and I had my daughter teach me the
(26:49):
proper technique. So I decided I was going to swim
and bike and run, and that was going to be
my introy actually into into the game. But then since
then the Games opened up to having sprint triathlon, so
take all three events that I enjoy and make them
into one, which I always wanted to do one but
(27:11):
never felt like I could, So this was a great opportunity.
But then I got there and this started seeing all
these different events that I could be part of, and
so I've expended. I've expanded to snowshoe racing and expanded
into learning the curl and my newest one as a
(27:34):
I don't know why, but I always want to throw javelin,
and so I decided when I went to the Canadian
Games last summer, I was going to learn how to
throw a javelin. And I've now taught myself, with some
help from other people, how to throw a javelin. In fact,
this summer coming up, we're in Germany for the World
Games and I am going to throw a javelin internationally.
(27:55):
So for someone who can, who's never thought about being
a javelin athlete, this has given me an opportunity to
do sports that I want to get to dream about
and watch. On TV.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
We're talking with Jonathan Hickman about an incredible journey from
transplant surgery to international competition and how he's now inspiring
others to get active and live life to the fullest.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
We'll be right back after the break.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
As you're listening to what we broadcast up The Wellness
and Healthy Lifestyle Show with Doctor Mike Wall. Listen live
Thursday nights at seven pm and Sunday's at four pm.
Speaker 3 (28:34):
Welcome back.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
We're here with Jonathan Hickman talking about his life after
transplant and what it means to represent New Flanna, Labrador
and Canada on the.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
World sporting stage. Let's get back to the interview.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
Quite often we don't realize how lucky we are until
we get faced with something and you it's almost like
you woke up after a long period of time of
not being able to do these things, and now you're like,
I'm free to be able to do it. I feel
like other people only realize this because they is that function.
They realize I'll ever get it back. You kind of
with the opposite way, And I think that's really fascinating.
What would you encourage people that actually have this full
(29:07):
function now that may not be taking advantage of it
when it comes to being active.
Speaker 6 (29:12):
You know, I just think that for me, it's it's
a I don't want to say a second chance in
life because I had. You know, my life has always
been I've enjoyed my life. I've never regretted having all
these surgeries.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
You know.
Speaker 6 (29:28):
The funny thing is is that I joke about it.
My lucky numbers thirteen and my transplant was my thirteenth operation.
But I never I never I never felt like I
had a bad life because I was limited to some
of the things I could do. But this is this
open myself up to so many different opportunities. But and
(29:51):
what's really becoming interesting and fun is because when you
travel to the World Games or even the Canadian Games.
I have friends all over Canada now who you know,
we talk and we meet up once a year or
every second year in Canada, every second year in the
World Games. I've got friends in Australia. I got friends
from England, I got friends from Germany, and we meet
(30:13):
at the Games. And that's really been kind of a
really interesting part of it is the people you meet
that have similar issues that you've had. You know, so
you know, I was a kidney recifcan but you know,
there's hurt, there's lungs, there's liver, there's stem cell, there's corny.
(30:35):
There's so many different athletes that come to the Games
and you hear their stories in it and some of
the issues that they went through and how their life
has changed. I always sometimes think that mine wasn't that
exciting when you started listening to some of these, you know,
other athletes who were waiting for a deceased donor and
(30:55):
I didn't know, You didn't know if they were going
to to be able to be a lot know, live
from one day to next. And now here they are
traveling the world, as are their their teams, and like
you say, we've got great friends because of it.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
Creating community, right, And I think the community is probably
the most underestimated aspect of health, and we have that
here a new flat of laborator. It's one of the
reasons why we have the health we do have, because
a lot of the time we may fall short on
some of the scales when it comes to illness, but
you know, overall, we're quite happy people.
Speaker 3 (31:28):
We have that community.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
I think that's so important, and I think it's really
great that you were able to take this new lease
on life, this physical activity that you value so much,
and then turn it into a community and then try
new things like javelin. Like you said, things you've played
done your whole life, but now you're doing new things.
When you think about how it's benefited you personally, like
outside of the competition itself you just mentioned friends and
(31:49):
everything else, has it actually changed you as a person
to be able to complete in this type of event.
Speaker 6 (31:54):
Yeah, you know, I think in some ways has given
me more self confidence. And you know I was always
like I say, Mom, Dad never treat me as a
sick child. But you know, there were certain sports I
wanted to play that probably weren't the right sports for
someone who whose kidneys were not a great shape to
begin with. And so I sometimes fel like I might
(32:16):
have been held back for the right reasons. And now
I'm you know, basically, whatever I can do, I'll do.
You know, I've I've got a a second and second
lease on life, and I'm going to go out and
I'm going to do whatever i can to get joyed.
And and you know, thanks to people like yourself, I'm
(32:38):
out here to promote or in donation and which but
even more importantly, after the don't after the transplant, what happens.
And it's it's interesting because you know, I've known people
who have had transplants and have been, like me, very active,
out going, love to talk about love to promote it.
And I have other people and friends who I've had
(33:00):
transplants who will never tell anyone had asurance plant. And
that's a second that was my previous life, and I
don't talk about it. Yes, organ donation is so important,
and I will always talk about the importance of signing
your MCP cord. I will always talk about how you
have to have a regular conversation with family members telling
them this is your final wish in life or what
(33:21):
I really love talking about is being part of the games,
being part of the community after the transplant, and you know,
getting out and.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
Celebrating the year second.
Speaker 6 (33:34):
And I don't want to keep calling the second life
because it's not what the opportunity you have to to
just grow so much more, meet people and hang out
with people that have similar similar stories that you do.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
Maybe it's maybe the better way of phrasing it is
to take full advantage of the gift you've been given. Yeah,
and there you goo and be grateful for it. And
I think that's that's a really nice message.
Speaker 6 (33:57):
And see, and that's what they call it, you know,
it's the gift of life when someone it receives an
organ it's it's the gift of life you're getting.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
So yeah, it's a good way to put it, the gift. Yeah,
and I'd be remissed. You know that you obviously are
involved with organization here in the province. How can people
make sure that they are an organ donor? And why
should they make sure that they are because I am well, you.
Speaker 6 (34:19):
Know, as I said, you know on sign your MCP
CURD and make sure it is known by your families
because unfortunately, even if you sign your MCP card, a
family member can still overrule the decision in your past,
you know. And so you're in the hospital and unfortunately
(34:41):
something has happened to you. The doctors will ask the
question to your family members. Are your the husband, wife,
whoever want to donate the organs? Are you still okay
with that? And if they say no, it's all over.
Speaker 2 (34:58):
They can't continue.
Speaker 6 (35:00):
So you know, if you have signed your MCT KURD,
thank you very much, but have this conversation yearly, relying people.
This is your final wish and don't don't have it
taken away from you. And then, you know, for anyone
thinking about why should I some of the stats out there,
you are eight times more likely to need an organ
than to donate an organ. And the amount of people
(35:25):
you can save as an organ donor between all your organs,
stem cells and all the other things you can affect
up to twenty families, I believe is the number to
do it. And you know, some people say, oh, I'm
too old. I know. The oldest organ donation in Canada.
(35:46):
It was made by an eighty three year old person.
There you go. And actually it's funny. We have a
lady out of Quebec who had a liver transplant and
cheeky Pete and I last, I think her organ is
now one hundred and thirty one hundred and forty years old.
Speaker 7 (36:05):
Until the person was so old when they don'ated she
was so young when she received it that she we
figured for what we know, she's the has the longest
organ in Canada.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
That's unbelievable.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
Wow, that's an interesting story.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
That's fantastic. One last question I'll ask you before we
put up your found It's really fascinating conversation from somebody
who didn't have health at one point or dealt with
health challenges. What does the work health mean to you?
Speaker 6 (36:36):
You know, what does work health need mean to me?
You know what health means one of the different things.
I guess for me, health is being able to compete
in any sport I want to try, and I'm willing
to try any sports. So when you listeners say hey
we got a new sport that so MU should try,
I'm probably your victim.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
But health is also.
Speaker 6 (36:54):
You know, being being out there in your community talk
about things and you know, for me, I think I
have a great story in organ donation, in life after donation,
I think.
Speaker 3 (37:05):
That has helped.
Speaker 6 (37:06):
And on top of that, the mental health of being
able to be active and be out in the community
is important to me, and I think that helps me
in my business career as well, to know that I've
got more to offer than just you know, the fresh
eye work in but also in the ability to help
(37:29):
others understand it, be part of it. And it makes
me feel good. And you know, I guess, like anything
in life, that it makes you feel good, you should
do it and do more of it. So now this
is why I really thank you for rearing me get
on and tell my story to whatever scent and hopefully
that someone may be sitting there saying I've had an
organ donation and I'd love to be more involved and
(37:52):
more active and how do I find out more Well, I,
as you've just heard for the last few minutes, I
love to talk about this stuff, so I'm always an
open air impact. It's funny friend of mine, his good
friend in Ottawa, was doning his kidney to his wife
and they asked me to talk to And I've never
(38:13):
met these people I don't know what they look like,
but I on the phone for about an hour just
talking about or donation and life after organ donation. And
I think that's the That's the thing sometimes people think,
is what happens after? What happened? What happens to me afterwards?
And you know what's also interesting, You know, these games
(38:33):
have all kinds of different sports. I think the toughest
one is the springt triathlant, but we do lawn bowling,
we do darts, we do ky walks. So it's it
really opens itself to people of all different athletic abilities.
And yeah, and so that's I think what makes it
so much fun is that you go and compete against
(38:57):
people all over the world, but you don't It's you
don't have to win the medal. You just get to
go and enjoy the community that you're now proard of.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
Yeah, exactly, you've all won if you're at those games,
because you've been in the recipients of a very special gift.
And I think that your definition of health is perfect.
I think that health is the ability to do what
you want in life. It's about being able to engage
and contribute and give back. And you've done a great
job doing that today and sharing your story. John, thanks
so much for joining me today was really great chat.
Speaker 6 (39:26):
No, thank you very much Mike for letting me tell
my story and hopefully maybe get some other people in
a New Fland who say I I would like to
join the new Flann team and compete. And it looks
like we're going to be in Quebec next in the
summer of twenty twenty six, so I'd love to have
some fellow New Flanders compete with me to do the
(39:47):
problems proud.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
Well, that's perfect. We'll have you guys back on to
show off all your hardware when you come back.
Speaker 6 (39:53):
Thanks so much, Thank you very much, Mike.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
I want to thank Jonathan and Alison Hickman for joining
us today inspiring learning about the road to recovery from
organ transplant all the way to competition on the world stage.
We've gained insights into the life changing impact of organ donation,
the recovery journey after transplant, and how physical activity and
even international competition can play a powerful role in healing
(40:17):
and hope. It was especially moving hearing how Jonathan, the
only organ transplant recipient from new plantat Labrador to compete
at the World Games has turned his gift of life
into a mission of advocacy and action. For those interested
in learning more about organ donation or how to get
involved with the Canadian Transplant Association, you can reach out
to Jonathan or Alison Hickman through the Canadian Transplant Association
(40:39):
website at www dot Canadian transplant dot com. Whether you're
a transplant recipient looking to compete, a living donor looking
to learn more, or someone who wants to become an
organ donor, there's a place for everyone when it comes
to giving the gift of life. Well, thanks for tuning in.
I'm your host, doctor Mike Wall. We'll see it back.
(41:00):
Thank here next week for another episode of the Wellnesce
and Healthy Lifestyle Show on the Stingray Podcast Network and
your VIOCM
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