S5E3: BIPOC Mental Health Awareness Month Series #1 of 2

Season 5 Episode 3 of The WeCOACH Podcast presented by Hudl features Part 1 of a two-part series dedicated to BIPOC (Black, Indigenous, and People of Color) Mental Health Awareness throughout the month of July. BIPOC Mental Health Awareness Month is intended to highlight the unique mental health challenges and needs of historically disenfranchised or oppressed racial and ethnic groups in the United States. With guests Megan Hankins-Maldonado [former HS & college basketball coach, now Licensed Mental Health Counselor, Executive Life Coach and founder of The R.E.C. Center (Reflect. Evolve. Conquer.)] and Michelle Bento-Jackson, Head Women’s Basketball Coach at Cal Poly Humboldt, we cover several issues related to mental health and emotional well-being along with a few other important topics as well.  Be sure to catch both episodes of this two-part series in July.

Host: Vanessa Fuchs

For more information, links and resources and hundreds more conversations from the world of women’s sport including articles, blogs, videos and podcasts visit wispsports.com.
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Episode Transcript

(00:14):
Hello everyone, and welcome to Seasonfive, Episode three of the Week Coach
podcast, presented by our partner Huddleon with Sports Radio. Huddle is leveling
the playing field for women in sports, both through the technology they create and
important events like Breakthrough Summit co createdwith week Coach. All podcast episodes are
inspired by collective input from our weekCoach community. Please join us every two

(00:38):
weeks for thought provoking discussions focus ontimely topics of national significance impacting the coaching
profession. I'll be your host,Vanessa Fuchs, CEO of week Coach,
a one of a kind nonprofit dedicatedto offering year round growth and leadership development
to recruit, advance, and retainwomen coaches and all sports and levels.

(01:00):
This podcast is a coproduction of WISSport and Week Coach. We look forward
to bringing you new shows dropping everyother Thursday. Well, I can't believe
it's July already. The summer isflying by as usual. July is BIPOC,
Black, Indigenous, and People ofColor Mental Health Month and tended to
highlight the unique mental health challenges andneeds of historically disenfranchised or oppressed racial and

(01:26):
ethnic groups in the United States.It's been absolutely tragic and heartbreaking to learn
of the multiple collegiate student athletes acrossthe country who have died over the past
several months due to suicide. Ourweak coach community stands with those families,
schools, and communities that have beenimpacted and are mourning the loss of these

(01:48):
young leaders. In light of themental health crisis in college sports, and
to do our part to create awarenessfor BIPOC mental health, we wanted it
to get to dedicate both podcast episodesin July to this critically important topic.
With me today are two guests,Megan Hankins Maldonado, a former high school

(02:09):
and collegiate women's basketball coach turned mentalhealth professional, and coach Michelle Bento Jackson,
head women's basketball coach of cal PolyHumboldt formerly Humboldt State University. Megan
actually coached on Michelle's staff for fiveyears before pivoting into her current career as
an executive life coach, licensed marriageand family therapist, and mental health counselor.

(02:34):
Thank you both for being here today. We're excited about the conversation.
Thanks Vanessa. Thank you Vanessa forhaving us absolutely and Megan, I wanted
to start with you, I'd liketo just get your thoughts, in your
perspective the current climate in college sports, what many are describing as a mental
health crisis in college sports, andit's not just in athletics. Mental health

(02:55):
and emotional well being our critical issuesimpacting our as a whole. And we
certainly understand and recognize that college athleticsis a pressure cooker. But then we've
also had the pandemic social injustices,the fight for equality for all people,
gun violence, comparison syndrome from socialmedia, and I'm sure I could list

(03:19):
off several several others, but Megan, you're a former college coach and college
athlete, and I'd like to justhear your thoughts on what you've observed as
the primary contributing factors to the crisiswe're facing in sports. Sure, I
think that it's always been I thinkmental health has always been something of a

(03:40):
concern for athletics. I think nowit's just had the platform to be out
there to say that it's an issue. But I think it's been there for
a long time. It's just somethingthat we've never talked about. And I
think all of the things that youjust talked about I think we're maybe the
things that brought mental health to theforefront because the pandemic press pause for all

(04:03):
of us to really maybe take alook at ourselves and look at the things
that maybe we're kind of going throughthat maybe we kind of say, ah,
we can just push that to theside and keep moving forward versus moving
on. I talk a lot tomy clients about that. You know,
I just want to move forward.I just want to move forward. Well,
sometimes it's not healthy to just continueto move forward because you're not looking

(04:24):
at what's going on right here infront of you to deal to be able
to move on. And so,you know, my heart and my love
goes out to anyone everyone who hasever lost someone to suicide. It is
not an easy thing to deal withas the person who is feeling suicidal or

(04:46):
the family members or coaches or friendsthat have lost a loved one and how
to process that grief when they decideor if they decide to take their life.
It is not easy on any onanyone. So my heart and love
goes out to all that have lostsomeone. Thank you for that, Megan.

(05:09):
You know, I personally have experiencedthe loss of a student athlete and
a loss of a full time staffmember when I was at Florida State,
and those memories still stay with metoday of just how difficult it was to
come to understanding if there is sucha thing, but also the support we

(05:32):
were offering to the families and seeingthe grief that they experienced after the loss
of their child, after the lossof their family member. But I am
grateful for the conversations that have beenstarted. I hope this continues to prompt
and advocate for change in college sports. I do think when I mentioned the

(05:54):
pressure cooker, we talk about itoften. It's a it's a twenty four
seven, three sixty five profession forour coaches, and I'd like to hear
if you've got any thoughts on justthe athletics environment and how that contributes to
maybe a higher rate or incidents ofstudents who are students, coaches and or

(06:15):
administrators who are struggling with either depressionor suicidal thoughts. Yeah, I think
that, like you said, it'sa pressure cooker, and there's a really
high i would say high depression,high anxiety to perform, right, the
pressure to win, the pressure toyou know, because a lot of coaches.

(06:39):
You know, salaries are are basedon winning and losing, right,
and so I think that if youknow, we took that away, would
that change the dynamic? Right?Would that change maybe some of the administrators
like as far as putting pressure ontheir coaches to potentially win so that they
can continue to have a job.It's probably like the most anxiety provoking job

(07:00):
I think I have ever had,because it is a I would call it
a twenty five by eight job.There's never a quote unquote off time because
your players could contact you if youneeded something. You know, your administrators
could contact you. Things, thingscould you know, happen all the time.
And like coach Benzo and I wehave conversations all the time about but

(07:24):
what about us coaches? What aboutus that are dealing with the day to
day and who is asking us ifwe are okay? Right? And on?
How and how do we balance that? How do we you know,
how can we be there for ourstudent athletes but also we need to be
there for ourselves as coaches? UmBut right now, like as far as
creating that space, it's non existent. One and then two, there's not

(07:48):
many potential professional mental health professionals thatmaybe have the experience of being a coach,
because it's a very intricate job.It's it's it's a job like no
other, and so if you maybehave never had the job, never done
the job, potentially it's hard tounderstand what that is on a day to
day basis. And I don't carewhether it's high school all the way to

(08:09):
Division one, there is somewhat sometype of pressure. And then also too,
you're you are on the front linesa lot for mental health or their
grades or the I mean, youname it. There's so many things,
and so you can't be an expertin everything. So who is going to
be that sounding board for the coachwhen they have questions or when they are

(08:31):
struggling with their mental health? Rightthey need to be allowed to say,
I don't know, but let mehave an expert help me, or let
me find someone that can help you. Vanessa, I'd like to chime in
there if I could. Absolutely youknow one thing that comes to my mind,
Vanessa. You know you mentioned anexperience that that you went through yourself

(08:52):
with a student athlete an administrator,and I have not as a coach.
I have not gone through an actualsituation where someone has unfortunately taken their life
but been close to those moments.And the thing I think about what you
just said about your experience at FloridaState was not only what Megan mentioned as
to how is that coach doing,But one thing that comes to my mind

(09:13):
is when we all signed up forcoaching in this profession, and I've been
in it for almost thirty years,we had we had no idea, you
know, that we are going toget to the point of the conversations that
we are having now, and ourUS coaches truly even equipped to give the
necessary guidance to these young athletes oradministrators whoever it is that we're working with

(09:33):
to to how to help them andhow to support them. And I've heard
so many coaches say, you know, I'm nervous about what to say.
I mean, everyone's you know,trying to protect ourselves from a from possibly
a legality situation, but at thesame time providing the love and support to
whether it be a co worker orto a student athlete. And so when

(09:54):
we go through those moments, who'steaching us on how to handle those situations?
And that something that I have found, not just with my own experience,
but in talking to colleagues that it'sjust not out there and we're trying
to go through this on our ownand we're not being coached, whether it
be for our own selves personally andour emotions, or how can we help

(10:15):
the individuals that we're working with toput them in the best situation for their
own personal life. Well said,and we're gonna talk a little bit more
about specific questions related to coaches focusingon their mental health. But Michelle,
to your point of the education,training and resources available for coaches, because
I think you know for me,I always encouraged our coaches when I was

(10:37):
an administrator at Florida State to notnecessarily take on all of these conversations yourself,
but learn the skills. There's anart to referring these young people to
the appropriate professional resources, and soI remember taking it was called QPR training.
Megan, I'm sure you've heard ofthat, but Question Persuade Referral training,

(11:01):
and it teaches you the appropriate languageto use the appropriate strategies to try
to help refer someone who might bedemonstrating signs that they may have a mental
health concern to to be able torefer them appropriately. And so Um,
We're also going to talk a littlebit about some resources available and I'm curious

(11:22):
to hear your take on that laterin the show. Um but Megan,
Um, you know I mentioned thelanguage. Could you talk a little bit
about what are some warning signs?We want to make sure our listeners are
kind of learning some some fundamental informationrelated to mental health and emotional well being?
And so what are some warning signs? What? What? What?

(11:43):
What? What is some appropriate languagethat you would suggest if you suspect or
you observe someone who might need toseek out mental health services. I created
a document and so if anybody isinterested, please you know, kind tax
me. But created a document thatI was did a talk with Jen Fry

(12:07):
which was an amazing opportunity, andtalked about language around depression and suicidal athletes,
and just to highlight a few becauseI know, you know, I
just want to give a little bittoo people is you know, asking the
hard questions. I know that alot of coaches, you know, it's
like, you know, Coach Bentowas talking about as far as like not
you're not potentially not equipped And Idon't think that you need to be,

(12:28):
but I think you do need tohave a couple of tools in your toolbox
to be able to then make thereferral. So asking the hard questions,
do you have a plan to hurtyourself? You are not putting that idea
in their head. It is alreadythere. If they say yes, then
you stop and you get them thehelp that they need. That's the first

(12:50):
thing I want to say is sometimesyou need to just cut to the chase
and hard to ask the hard questionsdo you want to hurt yourself? If
you don't, if you feel comfortableenough, you can ask do you do
you want to kill yourself? Doyou want to cut yourself? You are
again you are not putting those ideasin their head. They have already been
there. But after if they sayyes or no, or if they say

(13:11):
no but I have thoughts, Iwould still make the referral to mental health
right because again that's the stopping pointfor a coach. This is out of
what I would call scope of practiceand needing to refer out I think vot.
The next point I would say isvalidating their experience. It sounds like
you've got a lot on your shoulders. This must have been really, really

(13:31):
hard. When if they're top tellingyou things that are going on in their
life that must have been really hardfor you to experience those things, really
feeling that they are you are hearingwhat they are talking about. The next
one would be telling the truth onthe next steps. Don't be sneaky.
This is also a huge point,right and I do this in my own
practice with my with my clients,is that I let everyone know off the

(13:56):
top is that you know, thisis confident unless you say you're gonna hurt
yourself, you're gonna hurt someone elseor something else is gonna hurt you.
And then if you say those things, we potentially have to go down a
different road. So things like becauseyou told me you want to hurt yourself,
I need to get other people involvedand this potentially may invoked to anger
and that's okay. You've got tosit with that, right And again,

(14:18):
it's about their safety. So ifthey're angry, if they're sad, it's
sitting with them and saying, youknow, I only want to help you
through this. Or if you're anassistant coach, we need to let the
head coach know what's going on.Right, I can't keep this information.
I think that is huge to anycoach, any head coach, assistant coach,

(14:39):
dobos. You cannot keep this asecret. You cannot promise this athlete,
but you are going to keep thisfrom anyone. This is not something
you don't share. This is somethingthat you share automatically. I realize you
don't want this to happen, whateverthese next steps are, but these are
the next steps I need to take, you know, to keep you from

(15:00):
hurting yourself and to keep you frombeing you know, to keep you safe.
And lastly, I think it's importantto thank them because you know what,
this might be the first time they'veactually said it out loud, so
making sure I really appreciate you tellingme this. And I do this a
lot with my clients, even ifit has nothing to do with suicide.
But if it's a really hard thingthat they're having to tell me, I

(15:22):
tell them I appreciate how brave theywere to let me in in that way.
It takes a lot. I knowit was really hard to talk about
said thing. I really appreciate youletting me know. I feel privileged that
you feel safe enough to tell mewhat's going on, as I know that's
not easy. So so thank youso much. I think that goes a
long way, and so then itmakes them feel safe and they know at

(15:43):
the end of the day, whetherthey're bad, they're sad that you took
them seriously, and the next stepswill happen for them to keep them safe.
I think that those, to behonest, the four things that I
really think are really really important.If coaches are are interested, you know,
please reach out and I can sendyou this document of things to look
out for, um and just reallymaking sure that you know you are maybe

(16:10):
you know you are on the frontlines, so making sure that you know
you have enough tools in your toolboxto know when to refer out. Yeah,
I do you know? Again,going back to putting on my coaching
hat, the things that Megan justmentioned as far as potential questions to ask,
let's just use our example as astudent athlete. I guess you could

(16:33):
say I was fortunate in this mannerto have Megan on my staff. But
I remember vividly the day that shetold me, you know, these are
the type of questions to ask,and I was my jaw dropped. I
was like, what, That's notappropriate for me to ask those questions.
And obviously with Megan's background UM andcounseling and therapy, she she knew those
things. But what if I didn'thave Megan on my staff. I mean,

(16:55):
and I'm sure there's so so manycoaches out there that I personally would
have never thought. I would havethought that I could have been quote unquote
gotten in trouble for asking a questionto a student athletes such as, are
you do you have a plan?That just I was flabergasted by that,
And again going back to educating USadministrators and coaches on how to handle those

(17:17):
situations as compared to someone comes inyour office and maybe you know, tells
you something to very serious, havingokay, go to the resources on campus,
but finding that balance between showing thelove and support for our student athletes
because that's what we're all here about, and helping them, but yet giving
them the right tools. And again, I just always remember when Megan told

(17:37):
me that, and she kind oftook the lead on asking those questions because
we have gone through some situations togetherand supporting our student athletes, and I
would have never dreamed that those werequestions to be asked. Yeah, you
know, Michelle, we heard similarthemes. We just came back from our
Women Coaches Academies in Denver. Wehad about sixty women coaches there on site,
and I can tell you mental healthand how coaches best support these young

(18:02):
people and how to best have Theseconversations came up over and over and over,
and so I wanted to ask Megan, because obviously, Megan, you've
been a coach, You've been intheir shoes, you've been a student athlete.
I think your background is so uniqueand I'm really excited to get you
more involved as a resource for ourweek coach community. Megan, you founded

(18:23):
the REC Center, which stands forReflect, Evolve, and Conquer, and
you describe your work as helping othersto find balance when and how to say
no, how to set boundaries,how to recharge. My favorite is what
you said on one of the firstzooms that I listened to, that you
were a participant. You take therapyand counselor speak and turn that into coach

(18:48):
speak. So can you talk alittle bit about the services you offer to
coaches and student athletes And to CoachBento's point, are you available as a
resource or further education for coaches whoare wanting to learn more? Yes,
to answer your question, yes,I am, because I was just thinking
about, you know, what CoachB was talking about, and I was

(19:10):
thinking, you know, there's somuch training I remember as a coach,
we'd have to go through, likeyou know, training to drive, training
for sexual misconda, training for aconcussion protocol. Right. But there is
no training, at least in myexperience as a fifteen year veteran basketball coach
from all levels, that I hadfor mental health. Right. There was.

(19:33):
I was a part of the PositiveCoaches Alliance when I was coaching at
the high school level, but notmuch was talked about with mental health right.
And I can remember two of myathletes at the high school level.
One was potentially suicidal and one wascutting. And if I didn't have the
background in mental health, I don'tknow how those young people would have gotten
help. Right. I'm not tryingto say I'm the best, because I

(19:56):
know I'm not, and I haveso much more to learn, and I
know there are other colleagues out there, which are few that have the same
type of background that I have.But it's so so important that there needs
to be more training so that coachesfrom all levels have the you know,
the tools for all things not justsuicide and depression, but anxiety, eating

(20:17):
disorders, mood disorders, things thatare showing up that coaches are dealing with
on a day to day basis,and we're not talking about it right,
Um, it's the elephant in theroom, but we're you know, we
talk about it when things are happening, and then it kind of goes away
because we focus back on what,you know, what we actually are there
for. But it's a really it'sa really big thing that we need to

(20:38):
start having training. So yes,I'm a resource. I offer I coach
coaches through executive coaching. I'm alicensed marriage and family therapist in the state
of California, so I have clientsthat I see for therapy, and I,
you know, I really want toget more involved with universities with different

(20:59):
program rams, with whoever that feelsthat, you know, really really wants
more education around mental health. AndI think, like what you said,
I really I had a hard timewhen I was in grad school because sometimes
like therapy can really be like headyand using lots of big words that even
I was like, I don't knowwhat that means. And so for me,
it was really nice to kind oftranslate what that means and put it

(21:23):
in you know, lay person speakright or in this instant coaches speak,
I speak coach. I know whatit is to be a coach. It
doesn't matter what sports you play orwhat sports you coach. We all have
something in common as far as likehow we do the job and the amount
of time it takes to do thejob well. And so I think that
it's taking psychology and putting in interms that coaches can understand and coaches can

(21:48):
apply. It's the same thing Ido with my clients. I take what
I know from psychology and I putit in a way that people can understand.
I take that from my dad becausemy dad was talked a lot of
metaphors, and these a lot ofmetaphors in the way that I teach and
the way that I in the waythat I coach. I mean, when
I was a head coach, Iwould take the hole and break it down
and then teach the hole again.And then you know, being Michelle's assistant,

(22:12):
like she's very similar and how sheteaches and coaches the game. So
I take those things from what I'velearned as a coach. I apply them
as a therapist as an executive coachto help others really understand what's going on
for them on you know, onthe inside, and then potentially how do
they help their athletes or how administratorspotentially can help their coaches. Well are

(22:37):
we coach community welcomes you with openarms, Megan. We are so excited
to have you pour into our womencoaches and excited to also have you in
July with our high school academy coachessharing the importance of the focus on coaches
and their mental health. In additionto you as a national export and expert

(22:59):
and read source, I'm curious tohear from both you and Coach b if
there's other resources that you would recommend. I know at Florida State we had
a full time mental health specialist fulltime working in our athletics department, supporting
our student athletes. The problem wasshe was supporting over five hundred student athletes,
but she would provide education annually toour coaches. We also had a

(23:22):
campus counseling center, and so Iwas just curious, both within athletics or
on your campus, or within yourcommunity or even nationally, if there's resources
out there that you would recommend coachesturn to for that support that Coach B
is mentioning because it's certainly in ourweek coach community, a topic of constant

(23:42):
conversation. It is literally on theminds of our entire membership. You know,
I think that's a really good question. I know that, you know,
I've seen a lot on Twitter andI've seen, you know, where
coaches are really asking the NCAA toreally step up in this way of kind
of putting some some type of trainingtogether in this manner, right, And

(24:07):
I don't know if it exists onthe athletics like you know, world,
I mean, I know that it. You know, there are different trainings
that I go to as far aslike how to be a better therapist,
but like as far as like thosetrainings to be applied to you know,
said universities. I know that thereare a lot of on campus resources,
especially at the D one level,that have their mental health professionals putting on

(24:32):
different trainings for their coaches and thatand their administrators, which I think is
great, but let's be honest.Division two, Division three Naia high schools
AU programs, those resources are notthe same, and so it's really trained
to make it equitable that everybody getssay, the same education, so that
this is something that is the sameas if we were to get concussion training

(24:56):
or sexual misconduct training. It's allthe same cross the board, and I
think there needs to be more.The one resource I do want to give
is a National Suicide Prevention Lifeline,which is twenty eight hundred two seven three
eight two five five. If youare feeling suicidal and you do not have
a therapist, please please please usethat number reach out. But I think

(25:18):
there needs to be more out there. I'm you know, I'm currently trying
to work on some programming myself tobe a resource to those programs and with
we coach as well. I'm superexcited about, you know, working in
July and trying to put either groupstogether or some trainings together about how to

(25:40):
bring psychology to the sports world,like how to explain what anxiety looks like,
what they're seeing, how they're experiencing, experiencing as a coach themselves,
or potentially what they're seeing from theirstudent athletes, or if you had a
kid that was had an eating disorder, how do you deal with that.
Again, coaches are seeing mental healthshow up in their programs and feeling ill

(26:03):
equipped. I've had a lot ofconversations with a lot of different coaches from
a lot of different levels and feelingreally like just not unable to potentially help
their student athletes in the way thatI know that they want to and potentially.
But then the other thing, toois some resources are there they might,
like you were talking about, Vanessa, there's one therapist for potentially five

(26:26):
hundred student athletes, or if there'snot even a mental health professional that's with
the athletic community, there might justbe five for the entire the entire university
for some levels, and so it'sreally really difficult. I know that some
universities are using online platforms to potentiallyhelp with this situation, which is great,

(26:48):
but then it comes to the pointof, you know, do these
mental health professionals understand what student athletesgo through on a day to day basis.
And that's the other thing that I'vehad conversations with different athletes of yeah,
I have a therapist, Yeah Ihave a life coach, but they
don't really understand my sport. AndI spend more time explaining what I do
than really talking about the issues I'mthere for. And I've had that conversation

(27:10):
with coaches and a student athletes.So it's great having the mental health professionals,
but it's also having the right fitfor that specific community, for coaches
and for athletes. And that's whyI'll add to that is, you know,
again going back to resources, That'swhy Megan and I have spoken gosh

(27:30):
endlessly just about people such as ourselfwho have the unique background that Megan has,
because I'm certainly, with all duerespect all the resources that our universities
provide us. But but athletics isa different beast, and it's just so
many different components that come into playwith our student athletes and our coaches on
what we deal with on a dayto day basis that we need more people

(27:53):
such as Megan or Joan mcale.You know, people that have gone through
these situations and self, whether itbe an athlete or a coach, and
have a little bit more of anunderstanding of what goes on from a day
to day basis, and it's lackingin our profession. And I'm not just
speaking about basketball in my sport,but in all sports as a whole.
And again, as Megan also said, you know, just the different it's

(28:17):
it's a shame that financial resources arewhat is potentially stopping universities at the D
two D three level to provide thistype of care to our athletes. And
is it just seems so wrong thatbecause we have to provide, we're losing
lives to student athletes, and wejust we have to be better. We

(28:38):
have to do more from from UScoaches, from our administrators, from upper
administration at the universities to provide morefor these student athletes and coaches. And
if I can piggyback off a Ucoach, is that, Um, I
think you know, coaches are likehead coaches, right, are the are
the leaders? Right? And Ithink if head coaches think something's important,

(29:00):
it will be important for their entireprogram. And so there's a lot of
stigma around mental health and that youknow for different reasons culturally, you know,
men and men of color, it'snot something that they potentially reach to
first as a resource. But ifif said head coach is like, no,

(29:22):
we all need to make this apriority, then it will be a
priority. But if head coach,if said head coach is like, ah,
there's this resource, you guys canuse it if you want to.
But it's really not that important,then it won't be in that important.
So our whole thought process around mentalhealth has to change and has to be
It has to be important. Ithas to be important in order for us

(29:44):
to start seeing change in athletics andmaking it something that student athletes or coaches
feel comfortable about speaking out loud about. I'm not okay, and it's okay
for you not to be okay,and here are the resources you know to
help you well. We coach certainlywants to be a go to resource for
this topic because I have I've heardover and over from our women coaches this

(30:08):
is a significant concern for them knowingwhere to turn for resources so they can
best educate themselves to position themselves tobe able to then best lift up and
support their student athletes. You knowthe NSA, it does have multiple written
resources on their website, but asfar as national experts, presenters and speakers

(30:30):
with the proper credentials to speak onthe topic of mental health and emotional well
being, We're going to continue atwee coach to identify those experts like you,
Megan, and continue to connect themwith our wee coach community. And
again we can't thank you enough forthe work that you're doing to offer that
support for our coaches. You know, it is BIPOC Mental Health Awareness Month,

(30:55):
and Megan, I wanted to asksome specific questions here so that coaches
and administrators understand, specific to Black, Indigenous and persons of color, how
to best support those student athletes.Um, what are some factors that we

(31:15):
may not think about, particularly asa white ally, that impact the mental
health of our student athletes of color? And what are what are some best
practices or advice that you would offerto support those students. You know,
I saw this question and um,it really I thought a lot about it

(31:40):
because you know, you would notmentioned also that the Delaware State women's lacrosse
team being racially profiled on a trafficstop in Georgia as an example, and
um, it really brought up alot of emotion. Um, because I
am a woman of color. I'mhalf black, half white. My husband
is half Mexican half white, andso we have multiracial children. And the

(32:06):
helplessness that that coach felt being likebeing in that type of position is just
unreal. And that you know,coach coach Jenkins, she had said,
you know, if this was Coachk this would have never happened. And
I just sit with that for awhile because they're you know, they're right

(32:29):
and that it wouldn't and that thereis assume positive intent in this country.
If you are a white male andyou know any anyone else bipop, female,
LGBTQ, like it's already a negativeassume negative intent. And you know,

(32:49):
I can give some even personal examples. My family. We were on
the road and we were going througha small town and we were being pulled
over and we were going to speedlimits. So my husband and I were
really kind of like, this isweird, and so we're waiting. We
get we pull over to you know, a again, and here we are.
We're pulling over in a public placebecause you know, we are people

(33:13):
of color, we're nervous, andso the officer gets out who is Hispanic,
and starts screaming at us, rolldown your window, roll down the
back window. And we're both layingat each other like why and our son,
who at the time is four,you know, mommy, why is
he yelling at us? Mommy?Why is he yelling at us? And
you know, my husband is justlike I'm not rolling down my window because

(33:37):
I didn't do anything wrong. Butthe mother in me is like, please
roll down the window because I don'twant him to shoot our children in the
backseat, because this gun was drawnand it was very, very scary.
We're explaining that our children are inthe back seat and he slowly creeps up

(33:57):
and we're obviously are and we're like, what's the issue, and he said,
you haven't expired, you have expiredtags. I just was floored because
I thought to myself, if thiswas a white male or a white family
traveling across the country, it's assumedpositive intent, and that automatically looking at

(34:24):
us, you already assumed that wewere somebody of a threat. And I
will never forget my child's face.And I think that brings up a lot
of emotion because I think that alot of my white colleagues that are coaches

(34:45):
or therapists like don't understand like peoplelike SOT. If I bring it back
to the student athlete, there area lot of student athletes that come with
that experience. So then if theyget a professor, a white professor that
potentially is already assuming negative intent aboutcertain things versus their white counterparts, um

(35:05):
you know, it's very it's veryjarring. It's very scarring. It's you
know, and you're you know,we have to teach our young boys at
you know, at at young ages. I mean, my son is four
and having to deal with that.Another example is, you know, in
school, he was in school andhe he yelled at an adult, and
this administrator said that they were afraidthat he was going to become violent.

(35:30):
He's four. I don't think thesame administrator is saying the same thing about
white boys and girls that are inthis and this same institution. It's and
so to me, it's like youdon't want to pull the race card,
but the race card is always pulledout on us. And so to me,
it's like I want to I wantto assume that people are giving me

(35:50):
the benefit of the doubt, butsometimes it's in the back of my own
mind. So I think to mymy colleagues that are people of color,
I know that this is something thatthey also have encountered. And then also
thinking about, you know, we'redoing a better job of trying to hire
more people of color, but they'llhigher you go the less you see of
administrators of color. I can rememberbeing maybe one of two people of color

(36:15):
that we're head coaches. I canthink of institutions that I was maybe one
or two people of color in theentire athletic department. And this doesn't mean
it's just in rural America. Thisis also in predominantly white institutions that are
in big cities that you that acoach potential may be the only person of

(36:38):
color on the staff, right,And so then where you know, what
does that mean? How does thatfeel? Then? How do you know
having those athletes, you know,turn to that one coach and having all
those shared experiences, and then thehigher you go, like who do people
turn to? Right? You know, I can think of one time where

(36:59):
the president, the administrators, andat that time the athletic director we're all
people of color. That's only happenedone time in my whole career coaching,
and so I think that they're youknow, and this is happening across the
country. So I don't think myexperience with my family or with my son
is unique. But when you askme, those are the things that that

(37:22):
student athletes, coaches, and administratorshave to think about. It's an added
thing that they have to think aboutthat my white counterparts potentially may not if
they don't have children of color orthey're not married to a person of color,
that they don't have to think about, they don't have to talk about.
And I you know, I wouldtalk about that with my son's teachers.

(37:45):
We are having to have a wholeother lesson on top of learning numbers
and letters to our five year oldson that I'm sure his little friends are
not having to have those saved conversationsand then having then for me having to
go to work and having that onmy mind. You know, that's that's
an added thing, that's you know, wanting to keep my children safe and

(38:06):
that you know, when did myson become a threat? He was cute
at five, but now you know, at fifteen sixteen, he's a threat.
All those things I think compiled right, and then again just being you
know, just being cognizant of thoseexperiences and giving them space to be able
for people to be able to shareand to be able to process that pain

(38:31):
for themselves. One thing that comesto my mind is, you know,
we talk about people people of color, and whether it be a coaching staff,
whether it be an administrative and againI'm referring to athletic departments and how
many people of color, both menand women, are in these positions.

(38:52):
And I think back on during COVIDand during Black Lives Matters and the conversations,
and I sat in numerous zooms withAfrica and American men and women that
are in the coaching profession and sharingtheir stories. And I think back on
that and I think, you knowwhat, there were no administrators in those
zooms. It was just coaching andit was an opportunity for coaches to tell

(39:15):
their stories, which was phenomenal.But where is the administration? And again,
who is providing the support to thesein this case, people of color
going through just horrific situations in societyand then their own personal lives very similar
to the experience that that Megan justshared. And who's providing that support to
them? And in order to dothat, you have to have people that

(39:36):
can possibly relate to you. Soare we hiring people of color in upper
administration positions, whether it be staffsor administration. And I think that's a
key factor, both for men andwomen. And we have to provide in
all ways. And I mean hearhearing, you know, I can speak
of our teams here also, andMegan was with me at the time,

(39:58):
you know, the African American womenwho we had in our team and that
we're going through such emotional times intheir life, and the white individuals on
our team not understanding what that meant. And they were going through depression and
anxiety and just so incredibly emotional.And we had to have very very transparent,
open conversations within our team, andsometimes they you know, tears were

(40:20):
shed and anger was expressed. Butin my opinion, those were much needed
conversations, and I think it wasbeneficial to both the white student athlete the
African Americans people of color. Butwhat saddens me, Vanessa, to be
honest with you, is I feellike those moments took place during Black Lives
matters. My question would be howmany of those conversations are still taking place?

(40:45):
How many and I'm gonna say coaches, whether it be posts on social
media or had conversations with their teamduring that time. But what has continued.
This is an everyday thing, Thisis a life. This is not
just a fat as I say,this was not is. Are we still
having those conversations? Are we stillchecking in in this case with people of

(41:05):
color, and how are they doing? Are we naive to think that those
situations still don't exist. They happenevery single day, every single day,
and are we having those conversations.And that's where I feel like we're just
we're missing the boat. And Iget really discouraged, and I get frustrated.
I mean even here, you know, Megan and I started a few
different things when we were coaching,to provide for our student athletes, to

(41:28):
provide for administrators. And I getdiscouraged when I feel like that's just gone
by the wayside. Now that's onthe back burner, and I can only
speak of my own experiences. Ihope this isn't the case across the country
to the extent that I'm speaking of. But again, we have to do
better. We have to have theseconversations. We have to know communication,
and if we don't have these conversations, we're never going to get educated to

(41:51):
know how we can provide the supportand love for individuals that need it.
Well said, well said. Iwant to first both of you for sharing
your direct experiences and making yourself vulnerableto share those experiences that we can learn
and draw understanding. We coach.We want to continue those conversations, and

(42:15):
there's so much here in this podcastthat we've been able to touch on,
and we could probably spend another hourdiscussing some of these critical issues. But
you know, from mental health tosystemic hiring practices, to the lack of
representation at the highest levels and alllevels of athletes, not just in coaching,
and certainly we exist to serve andelevate women coaches, but we see

(42:39):
some of these challenges. There aremany. But what we strive to do
with we coach is not only discussthese challenges and continue to raise the awareness
and continue these conversations, but thenalso offer some strategies to help our coaches
and our administrators best navigate those challenges. To shift gears a little bit and

(43:01):
ask Michelle, you know, Ihad I enjoyed reading up on some of
the initiatives that you have done asas as a head coach. I read
about your Race for Change community serviceproject that you did with your team and
that you had collected donations for HumboldtsAfrican Americans Center for Academic Excellence. What
are some other ways and examples thatyou think might be beneficial for coaches to

(43:23):
think about not only as you goabout supporting the experience for your student athletes,
but also the experience for your coachingstaff and the support staff that's a
part of your Humboldt's program. Whatare some initiatives that you implement. What
are some things you intentionally do andthink about for your student athletes, coaches

(43:44):
and support staff that enhance their experienceand maybe they're their satisfaction of their job,
but also in many ways impact theirtheir well being is as individuals working
in athletics. Sure, first,in regards to the Race for Change,
I do need to give a lotof credit to UCSD and Heidi Vanderveer.

(44:08):
They kind of actually initiated that thatcause and that event, and Megan and
I we we absolutely jumped on boardright away as we felt that it would
be extremely beneficial in many ways.And yes, we got our team involved
and we did that event um whichwas which was tremendous, and again just
trying to get the word out reallyin our community and our community here in

(44:29):
humbold Counties is a pretty small community, but we wanted to not only in
the basketball world, but specifically ourcommunity. And you know, as I
mentioned a few moments ago, UhMegan and I were both also a part
of along with our tracking cross countrycoach, we started just a basically a
Sunday conversation UM with the African Americanstudent athletes here in our department, again

(44:52):
just to give them um a safespace for them to share and to and
to speak on whatever the case maybe, whether it was something in society,
whether it was their experience here atour university being an African American student
athlete. It was just kind ofan open forum. And along with we
have started what we call c SEA, which is social equity excuse me,

(45:15):
an accountability. And actually just recentlyI have connected with our VP for Diversity,
Equity and Inclusion and I had herjust she has a phenomenal background and
experience, and I had her speakto all of our student athletes so about
a month ago now, and itwas tremendous. I mean, she talked
about I think she could call itthe art of mindful inquiry and how to

(45:37):
handle conversations and some of the thingsthat us as coaches, you know,
can ask for example, you knowwhat I heard you say was or what
angered you about this? And justjust giving us all feedback. And when
I say us, one thing Meganand I again talk about a lot,
is it's our student athletes, butour coaches have to be Our coaches have

(46:00):
to be educated. You know,think about the white coaches who are dealing
with predominantly athletes of color. Dothey know how to handle these situations?
Do they know what type of conversationsto have? Are they conveniently avoiding conversations
that are necessary to help in thegrowth and development of our student athletes and
for mental support? Are those thingseven happening? And so to have these

(46:23):
open forms for discussions, that wasone thing that was really important to us,
to try to get not just withinour own team, but really through
our department, to educate everybody becauseand I don't mean this in a disrespectful
way, but I do think conversationsare conveniently not happening. And I say
that because individuals, in particular whiteindividuals, don't know how to stem a

(46:47):
conversation, don't know how to startthe conversations, and so it's avoided.
Whether it be because we're uneducated,whether it be because everybody is always so
I hear coaches say all the time. You know, I just I got
to protect my own but so tospeak, and not sure, you know,
everybody's so nervous on exactly what wordsare coming out of our mouths and
are we going to are we goingto be held accountable for something that we

(47:07):
had good intentions on but maybe itcame out in a in a disrespectful way.
So we've done a variety of thingsvan Essay and again right now,
my thoughts are these things have tocontinue, and I know we do it
within our team, and we're makingsteps here with our department and our university

(47:28):
and our upper administration is making thisa priority at our university, and I
think a lot of universities across thecountry are I just want to make sure
that they continue, that they're genuineconversations and not conversations because one feels that's
your duty. I feel that's that'sjust genuine. This has to be real,
open, transparent conversations. And Iwish, yes, I have my

(47:51):
department here, but just coaches acrossthe country and again in all sports,
you know, just having an opportunityfor us all to share. We all
go through so many things on howto handle things, and we can all
learn from each other and it's justsuch. You know, your organization,
We Coach is huge, and whenMegan first told me about you and I
read up on your organization, itjust I was excited because of the services

(48:14):
that you're providing in the conversations thatare having and we just have to continue
to do more and more. Thankyou, Coach b And we're just getting
started. This is month three forme at week Coach, and I've really
really enjoyed the work. But I'vebeen moved. I've been moved by the
honest feedback each time I have conversationswith our coach community, asking what their
needs are, what their concerns are, how we can best meet those needs,

(48:37):
how we can best support them.I've been really encouraged. There's so
much, so much important work aheadfor us, but certainly this is one
topic the many that we've discussed hereon this podcast that we want to continue
to address. And you know,again, we could go on for quite
some time. We've touched on somany great discussion and what I like to

(49:00):
do is conclude each podcast with thesame question. You know, we coach,
we exist to help move the numbersin terms of increasing and supporting women
and women and women coaches in alllevels of sport, And what's your advice
for continuing to move those numbers andcontinuing to build more women coaches in all

(49:24):
sports and levels. Well, Ithink you have people and I'm not just
referring to women that are now gettingtheir foot in the door in men's sports,
but just in general, I mean, we have some you know,
the Becky Hammonds, the Lindsay Gotliswe have. So you know, there's
a there's a list of women whoare really kind of paving the way,
in my opinion, just giving otherwomen the the courage and the strength and

(49:49):
the confidence to go for it basically, you know, to to apply for
those higher positions. And you know, I think, to be honest with
you, Vanessa, just you know, it's it's disheartening to hear the decline
of winning coaching now. But Ithink a lot of things that we're talking
about today UM play a part inthis. And I've heard so many coaches

(50:10):
say, you know, they're steppingaway from the game UM for a number
of different reasons. And so Idon't know if it's so much that the
positions aren't available, it's it's theposition itself and providing the support for the
coaches. Um, you know,I've I've heard coaches tell me that,
you know, in correlation to mentalhealth that you know, it's an NT

(50:31):
two, a Sweet sixteen game,and their best player wasn't playing because you
needed a mental health day. AndI think about that, and I think
we have to support We have toprovide the support for that student athlete,
There's no question about it. Butyou know as well as I do,
also that at that level, thosecoaches are help. You know, the
their livelihoods is on their win lossrecord, and where is that balance for

(50:53):
the coaches the pressure to win andlose? And here we are in one
of the biggest games. I couldaffect my contract, could affect my future,
and my best quote unquote best playerisn't participating in that game. How
do we handle that? How dowe still encourage coaches to want to stay
in this profession when these type ofthings are taking place. It's discouraging,

(51:17):
folks, To be honest with you, it's it's at least from my experience
and colleagues that I have spoken to. These are some of the examples that
I've been given as to why.And I'm going to specifically say women why
women have stepped away from the game, and that's that's heartbreaking. I mean,
they've spent their life in this professionand it's some of these obstacles that

(51:37):
are quote unquote pushing us women outthe door. And I think it starts,
you know, obviously, from thevery top, but we have to
have more conversations. One last thingI want to touch upon is look at
how many situations across the country wherewhere coaches are getting fired. And I'm
not just referring to when loss records. I'm referring to a lot of difference

(52:00):
situations that take place. And onceagain, where is the support for those
coaches that are going through very,very difficult situations, possibly with their own
student athletes. Where's that support forthem? Coach told me many years ago,
we should start a coaches group justto give the support because so many
individuals, at some point in yourtime, you're going to go through an

(52:20):
adverse situation in your coaching career,and how do we continue to provide the
support for those coaches to want themto continue to stay in this profession.
It's a million dollar question that I'masked all the time, and I think
things of that nature will give theconfidence for women to want to stay in
this profession. Yeah, Coach Ia thousand percent agree with you. And

(52:42):
I think another thing that is alsoI think for me was important to work
for Coach B was that she isa mom. And I think, you
know, we've seen it across thecountry. Regardless of job, women in
the workplace has climb drastically, uh, due to childcare and um and women

(53:05):
getting out of coaching because you know, whether head coaches that they work for,
it's not you know, there there'sum no space for a coach to
potentially have a family or um,you know, administrators not potentially you know,
making that same concession. And sopeople are having to choose their families

(53:27):
over potentially what they love to do. And and it's a lot more women
having to make that concession. AndUM, I have to say, you
know, working for Coach B,um, I was a new mom.
Um. I funny enough, Itook the job and then days later I
found out I was pregnant and CoachB was like, oh, congratulations.

(53:47):
Trying to do the math of like, okay, so are we gonna be
a postseason or what. So itwas really it was really cool um to
have her support, um as ayoung mom, as a coach that was
trying to make it work because you, like I said before, this job
does not stopped just because I wentto practice and came home. I still

(54:08):
got to make recruiting calls. Andthen by the way, I got to
make dinner, and then I gottachange a diaper, and then I gotta
put a kid down, and thenI probably have to call another recruit and
then potentially I'm texting um, youknow, coach at night. You know.
So to me, having you gotto have a partner, that's understanding
because there's so many sacrifices that Ithink women make as coaches and that they're

(54:30):
also their partners make that is nottalked about. And so I think for
me and my personal experience, likewithout coach B you know, being just
the rock that she was for me. I mean she was there when both
of my children were born. Sheyou know, allowed, you know,
and not allowed. But I justwas like, hey, I want to

(54:51):
go to my kids first swimming class. She was like go um, and
vice versa when she and know herson is in basketball and hey, man,
I need you to run practice.Okay, So you know, having
having support from administrators down with womenwanting to have families and not having to
get out of coaching because they wantto do that. UM, I think

(55:12):
is so so important. And havingpeople that will you know, include the
family. UM. You know,my children love coach UM and they you
know, they were around a lot, and you know, if I had
stayed, I'm sure this year myson, who's going to be six would
probably have been on the on thebench. I mean Coach B's sons on
the bench. So, you know, I think working for someone who is

(55:34):
a fan, whose family first andhas those priorities set to her players as
well. I think it's you know, trying to find, you know,
people that are family first to workfor if that is your priority, so
that we can we can keep morewomen in the game and they don't have
to choose family over over there whatthey love to do. Well said,
and you touched on. You bothtouched on a couple more topics that I

(55:59):
continue to hear over and over fromour our women coaches. You know,
women around the country being fired forabuse and harassment in the program, allegations,
support for mothers in coaching another bigtopic. I was just on the
phone with a coach last week,helping to support her as she was trying
to work with her administration to ensurethat her young child got to travel with

(56:22):
the team when she's away for fourand five days for team travel, right,
you know, support for women incoaching, we're we're working on a
toolkit right now as part of ourfiftieth anniversary title nine Resources that is going
to be shared here soon that helpsgive administrators, support administrators, athletics directors

(56:47):
best practices for how they best supportwomen in coaching, and a lot of
these topics that we've touched on throughoutthis podcast will be included in there.
But I can't thank you both foryour leadership and the work you do to
not only lift up our next generationof leaders, these student athletes that you

(57:07):
work with, but also to helpsupport these coaches who they need the support.
And so, Coach B, Ican't thank you enough for your leadership
of how you support your staff andpromote an environment where there is some semblance
of balance, integration, harmony betweenthe very busy job of coaching and the

(57:28):
work and their lives at home.And Megan, thank you so much,
you know, for you to pivotout of coaching and now be able to
serve coaches and student athletes in anothervery empowerful and impactful way. Just thank
you for what you do and thankyou for the time that you've committed to
Week Coach again, just can't thankyou both enough for being on the show

(57:51):
today. For you listeners, Thankyou for listening to episode three of the
Week Coach podcast. We're going tocontinue this conversation, Like Coach B said,
We're going to continue this conversation.Part two of our mental health series,
dedicated to BIPOC Mental Health Awareness Month, will come out July twenty eight,
and so we encourage you to tunein for that conversation as well,

(58:15):
and you can follow us and shareyour comments on Twitter at we coach and
at with Sports or on Facebook atwe coach sports and at with Sports.
Interested in learning more about our anyof our upcoming events, resources, membership
and donor options, please visit ourwebsite at we coach sports dot org.
And until next time, keep movingthe numbers. We teach, we inspire,

(58:39):
we motivate, we lead, Wecoach