Episode 53 - Dr. Rene Wiedner, University of Warwick - The Women in Vinyl Podcast

Episode Transcript
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(00:03):
Welcome to the Women in Vinyl Podcastwith Jen Dugenio, founder of Women in
Vinyl, and contributor Robin Raymond.This podcast facilitates conversations with those working in
the vinyl record industry to educate,demystify, and diversify the vinyl community.

(01:30):
You're listening to episode fifty three ofthe Women in Vinyl Podcast. Thanks for
joining us. You just heard Goaby Gia Low off the album We Are
Lo Fi Volume two via the indielabel Patiotic Records. Find this and more
at Instagram dot com, slash Gadot l lo Music, and Patiotic Records

(01:52):
dot com. We're taking a littlebreak from our Virtual Vinyl World tour to
talk with doctor Renee, the Associateprofessor of organization theory at Warwick Business School.
We're discussing his paper The Custodianship acrossGenerations Preserving the Practice of Vinyl record
Manufacturing. He is currently writing anacademic paper and a book on the topic

(02:15):
and joins us to discuss the importanceof craft and why we should be concerned
with the preservation of skill, sharingknowledge and how we learn and share these
manual skills. Reminder to grab acopy of our book Women in Vinyl The
Art of Making Vinyl Out Now goto Women Invinyl dot com slash book.
As a reminder, we have commercial, free and high resolution versions of this

(02:38):
podcast, along with our membership andtons of other discount codes available at patreon
dot com slash Women in Vinyl.Thanks to you, we're number eleven on
Featspot's Top Vinyl Podcasts. Please continueto like and subscribe enjoy the episode.
Rene, thanks so much for joiningus. No, thank you for having
me. Robin has actually been talkingabout your work for a minute, and

(03:02):
so we were excited to be ableto share what you've put together. So
it's not often a lot of likesmart people want to talk about records and
record collecting and you know, bringit to the academic space. I mean
other than like friend of the podand Lovely Women and Vinyl board member of

(03:23):
Veronica as well, but like thistakes it to another dimension which is like
super needed. And I mean withall of that exposition, like let's jump
in. Yeah, so why don'tyou tell us a little bit about you
and how your journey with records began? Okay, yeah, sure, So

(03:46):
I'm an organizational sociologist and I'm basedat Work Business School, which is kind
of a department at the University ofWarwick. And then so you know,
I basically I study things like changeprocesses and organizations and industries, and I
also look at relations between meaningful workand technology. Those are kinds of my

(04:11):
you know, those are my areas. But in terms of how I specifically
got into Vinyl, I think that'skind of a detour and a long story.
Do you want me to tell it? Yeah, yeah, okay,
we'll all about long format here,come on, yeah, okay, okay
LP. So basically, I meanI was if we go back to the

(04:32):
year twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen orso, I was just finishing my PhD.
I was doing a PhD in managementstudies that I had nothing to do
with vinyl or the music industry oranything like that. It was it was
about healthcare systems management, okay.And so I was finishing my PhD,

(04:53):
I was looking for a job andbasically I had this deal where I could
do a one year post doc positionat Cambridge. So so Cambridge in the
UK, not Cambridge in the US. And basically, I mean, during
that time I had to do someteaching. It was basically there for me

(05:13):
to look for a proper job,but I also got some research funding.
And I remember I had these conversationswith a really good friend of mine.
His name is Stefan Kakovic, sovery easy name to pronounce, uh hard
case, I love, yeah,exactly. So he's a very good friend
of mine. He was living inLondon at the time. He's got a
recording studio now in Frankfurt in Germany. So just to shout out to Stefan

(05:40):
and his electronic memory studio. Butessentially, back then he was telling me
these stories about just how weird thevinyl record industry was, and he was
talking about supplying chain issues in youknow, with respect to uh mass you
know, laquer discs and things,and I knew nothing about this. I

(06:01):
just thought, Okay, this soundssounds quite interesting, and so I started
looking into it, and I waslike, it'd be really interesting to study
kind of an industry that, youknow, how an industry has survived when
you know it basically had been writtenoff as obsolete. And I wasn't interested,
you know, I personally wasn't interestedin the demand side. I was

(06:24):
very interested in the supply side.So I was thinking it's easy to tell
the story. Okay, now peoplekeep buying Vinyl records. That keeps the
industry alive. End of story.And I thought, no, it's probably
a little bit more complicated than that, right, And so that that kind
of got me interested, and Ithought, okay, I've got a little
bit of funding to do some someinterviews, to travel a little bit.

(06:46):
So I did. I did sometravels. I went to Well, it
started off being really confusing. Bythe way, this was back in twenty
twenty fifteen. I think, Vinyl, do you be like that? Yes,
I mean just trying to find outwhere the pressing plants were back then,
you know, I was researching.I was just trying to compile like

(07:09):
a directory of you know, vinylrecord pressing plants. At that point,
I didn't even know what the relationshipwas between mastering studios and pressing plants,
and whether pressing plants had their owncutting rooms, or whether mastering studios were
affiliated with pressing plants. All thatI was, you know, I had
no idea, and I you know, I couldn't even begin to talk about

(07:30):
Calvanis and the electure plating and thatkind of stuff. Welcome to our world.
Renee. It's so nice to haveyou with that even twenty four Yeah,
yeah, I mean, but nowyou know, we've got we've got
your great podcasts, so I mean, people can kind of get up to
speed, you know. But itwas really it was a steep learning curve,

(07:54):
and so I remember just trying tojust figure out how things were working,
getting really confused because so many ofthese so called pressing plants were actually
brokers. Why why are they Whyare they pressing plans? That's the Herman
word of the day. Yeah,So it was I actually got together with

(08:16):
because at that time there was thisthing there's now there's this website right called
Vinyl Pressing Plants not something, sothere they've been trying to basically also compile
you know, a proper list andeverything, really trying to distinguish between brokers
and pressing plants. So I wasactually working together a little bit with the

(08:37):
person who was the main researcher atthe time, who was who was also
trying to figure things out. Sowe were kind of working together a little
bit, but but really independently,so you know, we weren't working together
academically. But then yeah, Istarted going out and actually talking to people
and it was funny. Actually thefirst place I went to because I'm originally

(09:00):
from Austria. Okay, that's that'swhere I'm originally from. And so I
thought, you know, there's thisthere is this one place. They're calling
themselves kind of a pressing plant,but they don't sound like they're a real
pressing plant, and they're called doctordub Oh. I love those guys.
Yeah. And the funny thing isthey're they're in they're the Alps there the
mountains. They're really in the middleof nowhere. I mean they're actually in

(09:22):
the skiing resort basically, and nowherenear my relatives or anything. And so
I was, you know, Istupidly said, oh, okay, next
time I'm over there, you know, we'll just do a short trip and
we'll just go over there, andnot realizing that it would actually take a
full day to get there. Butit was interesting because you know, then

(09:43):
I suddenly started to learn about theworld of dub plates, and because I
had no idea what a dub platewas, and you know that people were
actually making them one by one likeyou are, Robin, and that was
kind of of eye opening. Sothe more I looked into it, the
more interesting things I suddenly started tosee. I mean, the biggest surprises

(10:09):
in all of this was that,you know, if you look at the
data right in terms of vinyl recordsales in North America but also worldwide,
I mean, they really did decreaseby over ninety percent actually, I think
even ninety nine percent over a periodof maybe you know, a couple of
decades or so. And the interestingthing is that I then looked at,

(10:35):
Okay, what happened in terms ofpressing plants, and between nineteen ninety and
twenty ten, when really there wasn'tany talk about a vinyl revival or anything
like that, there were at leastnew thirty pressing plants that opened up during
that period. And that is justbizarre. That is just really strange.

(10:56):
So I thought, I mean,on the one hand, if you started
a new venture, like people thinkyou're a little bit crazy, but still
they're like, because most ventures fail, right, but still people are generally
in awe of like, you know, an entrepreneur, somebody who takes on
a risk and everything. But ifyou start a venture in an industry where
everybody says this is already obsolete,I mean, people think you're completely mad,

(11:18):
right, So that was really interestingthat there were people who were actually
setting up pressing plans during that time. And then the other interesting thing that
I started to learn was that therewas actually a lot of innovation that was
happening. I mean when sometimes whenyou hear people say, Okay, you
know, what's the difference between makingviolent records now compared to the nineteen seventies,

(11:41):
and people say nothing, nothing haschanged. And to some extent that's
true, right, because the processis still kind of the same. But
if you really look at what happenedduring that period now between let's say nineteen
ninety and twenty ten or so,there were some really interesting things actually,
and that did play a big rolein keeping the industry alive. And so

(12:07):
that's kind of what I started toreally look into. Did your record collection
before that? That's exactly what Iwas gonna ask. Yeah, did have
a big record collection? Yeah?No, not really, I mean in
terms of vinyl records, So Iwasn't actually a big collector and not really.
I mean, I think the interestingthing is, so I did my

(12:28):
undergraduate studies in Vienna, and Ialways kind of so in Austria, but
that's after actually having lived abroad,and I was always kind of a little
bit of an outsider, didn't haveyou know, many close friends. But
I went to university the I rememberreally being into like, you know,
quite you know, alternative acts.Like I was a big Sonic youth fan

(12:48):
and big fan of the Melvins andall kinds of stuff like that, and
I was the only one who wasinterested in that stuff. And then I
found that actually there was a recordstore which was being operated out of somebody's
apartment in Vienna, and that becamekind of the hangout, you know,
the place where I would I wouldgo to every week to kind of hang

(13:09):
out. Then there you could seethat, you know, the people who
were there, you know, theperson was living there, who was who
owned the records store if you cancall it a store, and and and
the people who were working there andjust kind of hanging out. I mean,
they really did value vinyl records.And so I suddenly, you know,
I kind of got back into well, I kind of got into records.

(13:33):
That must have been around the yeartwo thousand or so, maybe a
little bit before then. And thisis basically also when people were saying,
like you know, vinyl records aredead, yeah, but there was there
was always that underground niche, right, there was always and and me feeling
more part of the underground. Ithink that kind of spoke to me absolutely.

(13:54):
Yeah. I mean, if youif you look at your like academic
published record, like it's it's kindof like a funny left turn, right,
because like you're talking about leadership andthe Jesuits and like practitioners and the
medical system and everything. So Imean sociologically, like I did a little

(14:16):
bit associated Uni too, So I'mlike, okay, like I understand,
I understand, but the through lineis kind of a funny thing. So
how did that academic line get kindof distorted little mastering humor there into this

(14:37):
space because you met up with allof my buds with the egg News and
those guys to talk about actual likecutting records and like mastering and lates and
like innovation and ingenuity in that kindof space, and then now we're talking
about propagation of knowledge, and like, can you tell me a little bit

(14:58):
about that journey? Well, Ithink, I mean, yeah, it's
not it's not a linear journey inin in any you know, real real
sense. I mean it's it's basically, I mean, I'm really privileged in
that I can basically do any kindof research that I find interesting as long
as I can somehow connect it totopics which are of interest, you know,

(15:22):
to academic communities which are somehow relatedto a business school, then it's
all foun I love that. So, I mean that's I'm a hype guy.
I love that I can always figureout a way to s and then
I mean this, that's I mean, I'm I'm kind of lucky because in
business schools we do have the sowe're not that rigid. We can we

(15:45):
can easily move between topics, betweentheories, between disciplines, which you can't
do. I mean, if Iwas purely, if I was really in
sociology itself, it probably would bea little bit more difficult because I probably
have to be a little bit morekind of narrow in terms of my topic
and kind of really be an expertin that. But you can kind of
get away with doing lots of differentthings and then retrospectively connecting them with one

(16:10):
another, which is kind of whatI do. So, I mean,
when I gave you that little introductionabout you know, the kind of stuff
I do. I mean, Ican work out I can kind of pull,
you know, put these things togetherand some kind of a narrative where
it's about you know, meaningful workand technology and stuff. But you're right,
I mean there are some detours.Like the paper you just mentioned about

(16:33):
the Jesuits. I wasn't the leada researcher on that that was. That
was just because I, you know, happened to be kind of involved in
that project more indirectly. But itdoes speak to something that I've become more
and more interested in, which islike historical studies. So I mean the
real first historical study was for methis you know, looking into vinyl record

(16:57):
manufacturing. But since then I've beeninvolved in some other stuff, which I
haven't I haven't published everything yet,but I think you might have seen.
I've looked at a case of youknow, an entrepreneur, you know,
one of the best potters of thetwentieth century. And so these kinds of
based historical studies are really interesting.And you know, I think in terms

(17:22):
of vinyl record manufacturing, I alwaysmade the conscious decision not to go back
in time too far. I wantedto kind of really just narrow it down
to that window I was talking aboutwhen you know, people were like,
this is dad, who cares aboutvinyl? I thought that, Okay,
if nobody cares, that's the rightthat's the right time to you know,
to really focus on because you know, probably nobody else is looking into this.

(17:45):
So I've got I've got a nichewhere I can kind of be the
one who can can become the experton that. Well, and what do
you think for it? Yeah?Yeah, and looking at your research there
and then now where people may arguelike, you know, well, it's
the number one selling physical format,so why talk about the decline in the
past. What do you see assome of the reason for that previously that

(18:08):
could then lead to where we arenow. Yeah, I mean I think,
I mean this is also the thingwith being an academic. I remember
I'm not going to name names now, but there was at least one person
who was like, you know,you're going to be way too late with
publishing this because everything will are verychanged by then, and that's and I

(18:30):
was saying, like, that's that'snot the point, Like I'm just trying
to kind of understand what happened andthen we can learn from that potentially in
terms for sure, maybe you know, in other cases, maybe not even
in vinyl record manufacturer. Maybe maybein completely different cases. You know,
what I'm generally interested in is thesurvival of crafts, and so that going

(18:53):
back to that first ever kind ofresearch interview or that field work I did,
doctor dub I remember when I wastalking to the owner at that time,
who is no longer the owner.He said, you have to understand
one thing, Renee, this isa craft. Okay, this is not

(19:17):
an art, this is not ascience. This is a craft. And
when he said that, I waslike, yeah, okay, whatever.
And then and then after that Iwas like, hmm, okay, maybe
there is something here about craft andthat became one of the things that got
really interested in. So Ever,since then, I have been looking at

(19:37):
the survival of crafts more generally,and and the thing with vinyl is,
unlike other crafts, it doesn't it'snot necessarily associated with a very particular region.
It's not like a traditional craft likeyou know, the people who are
like making I don't know, handweaving, some kind of what I went

(20:00):
to college for. Yeah, youknow, you can basically say, well,
this is you know, the traditioncoming from this particular region in the
world or whatever. Like vinyl recordmanufacturing doesn't really have that, so it's
it's actually difficult to to support likeUNESCO would not say, Okay, we're

(20:21):
going to preserve the craft of vinylrecord manufacturing, whereas they do try to
preserve all kinds of other local traditionalcrafts, right. Yeah, So from
that point of view, I foundI've always found it interesting because because yeah,
you can't actually get like a regionalor a national body to support,

(20:42):
you know, the preservation of vinylrecord manufacturing. It has to happen almost
like from a grassroots a level,and it kind of and this is what
I found. I mean, itjust it's like tiny pockets everywhere around the
world people who are just fascinated by, you know, making records. I
mean you you you probably know mostof these people, right, especially you

(21:03):
Robin in terms of like, youknow, there's a guy in Argentina who
I was chatting with who makes Ibelieve he does you know, electro plating
in his kitchen. Well probably notkitchen, he still uses for you know,
but yeah, and then there's like, you know, people in New
Zealand in Australia. Yeah, ohyeah, I love it. I love

(21:26):
the dudes in New Zealand shout outto downbeat of these. Yeah. But
I mean that is I mean aquestion that Jen and I get all of
the time and that we feel,as the women in Vinyl kind of organization
constantly, is well, like howdo we get more people into these spaces

(21:47):
and how do we educate people inthese spaces? Because I mean when I
was learning how to cut records,like that was kind of it's kind of
the only way that you can learnhow to do it is by cutting records.
So there's this like gigantic barrier toentry because you need this gigantic piece
of equipment and then the infrastructure tosupport that. And I was just fortunate

(22:07):
by having a separate career where Icould jump off and finance myself that I
could launch this. But I meanthat's not the case for everybody, you
know. I mean, it's notannoyment and it's not a scully. But
I get by with my little lateand it's fine. But like you know,
my friend Nick Townsend, like hebought his he bought a scully and

(22:30):
he bought like he bought an annoymentand launched his mastering career. But like
that's that's kind of the way thatlike our generation, our age bracket is
kind of getting into this. Likethere's some people that are getting jobs at
mastering studios, like the levely andtalented j At Galindo and the levely and
chalented Bobby gil that are going intoplaces with that infrastructure existing, but that

(22:56):
are trained like mastering engineers. Butthen somebody needs to teach them how to
cut right, which, yeah,which is like a huge part of what
we're trying to do. I mean, I'm sitting on local boards here at
like Austin Community College that has areally good opportunity to bring these into being
actual parts of their programs, becauseI'm like, why not teach this at
a college level? Because it isa trade, there's no other way for

(23:18):
people to get into it. Andso we are hoping that with our info
sessions and some of the things thatwe're trying to do, that we can
kind of be the custodians as youmentioned, into this industry so that it
can continue to grow. Yeah.Absolutely, I think, you know,
I think there are a few thingsthat should be done, and it can
be done. I mean, firstof all, I think it's important also

(23:41):
to recognize that it's always kind ofbeen a closed industry in a way.
So it's not like it's not like, oh, in the good old days,
anybody could kind of, you know, get into this, and you
know, it's it's always kind ofbeen a struggle I think for people,
so unless you have connections and whatever. But you know, having said that,

(24:03):
I mean it's funny. When haveyou come across Flow Kaufman. Yeah,
I mean you would love to bein Flow's pocket at any moment in
time to absorb. And I meanthat's one of the biggest things is because
like Flows over in Switzerland, Leoand oh jeez uh, I'm blanking on

(24:26):
their names right now, but they'rethe guys that Horowitz Len and Jacob Horowitz
like, they're the guys that knowhow to repair like all of the Noymans
and the Scullies like there. Youwant to talk about pockets of information that
are isolated from each other, likethose are like the three major dudes in
yeah, that world. And Imean I don't know that anybody like Jacob

(24:48):
and Lenn are kind of you know, they've got that like familial knowledge transfer,
but beyond that, like I don'tknow that flows training anybody or like
taking understudies. No, exactly,And yeah, I mean the only reason
I mentioned flow is because he saidhe once called like the nineties or the
early two thousands, like the goldenage of vinyl, which is kind of
ironic, right, but he saidthat it was the worst. Well,

(25:11):
it was the worst, but hesaid, at that point, I mean,
if you were if you were smart, you could get your hands on
second hand equipment or if you knewabout how to do that, which whereas
now it's impossible, I mean toget annoyment, you know, but at
that point they were still kind ofaffordable in a way, but you had
to know how to actually get yourhands on these things, right, I

(25:33):
know that they existed, and Imean, like he were saying, at
the beginning, you know, youdidn't know, And I mean until you
actually like dive into this or likestumble across a genius podcast that walks you
through every step of manufacturing progestion,you're not going to know those terms.
Like I didn't know about like Ihad a bitchin record collection since I was

(25:55):
a little kid, and I didn'teven know like what these crazy lads were,
and I was like, what isthat? That looks fun? And
what? Yeah? Now I completelyagree. I think you know, educationally,
you know what you were saying before, By education, I think that's
really important. And I think itkind of has to already begin in in
school, so not not not atcollege level, but before. And you
know, when I hear people talkingabout doing demonstrations in schools about you know,

(26:18):
cutting directly onto disk and the kindof reactions you get from from you
know, from kids, you know, completely amazed. How is it that
you can get my voice onto youknow, into these grooves or whatever.
I mean, that's that's how youcan already attract attention, I think from
an early age. And I thinkit's it's a shame that also college level,

(26:38):
as you were saying before, youknow that a lot of these things
they just stopped teaching you know,basic analog, you know, recording methods,
and which is really yeah, ashame because I think one of the
questions you sent me before, Jenabout what was it about why we should
even care about you know, preservingthis this stuff. I mean that's often

(27:03):
the question I get, like whyshould we care right, I mean,
so wide a vital record, youknow, making dies out, and I
think it comes down to a basicquestion that you know, what is actually
progress? You know, is progressjust replacing the old with the new or
is it about you know, increasingpossibilities, you know, and having a
coexistence of different you know, differentoptions, different different techniques, different things.

(27:29):
And that's kind of ultimately what Iwould argue really in richest society,
right. So I think from thatpoint of view, I think a lot
should be done in education more broadlyabout just making people aware of these different
options. And sometimes you can't predict, you know, what's going to come
out of that. So you know, there are interesting like even even when

(27:55):
I talk with people about like sometraditional crafts and then they find that actually
some of that knowledge that was almostbeing lost can suddenly be applied somewhere else
in a different area, you know, so sometimes these things are totally also
transferable. I mean that's something thatI've really been trying to push for in
something that I really wanted to happenat our conferences this year, is to

(28:15):
bring in outside perspectives into our industry, to bring their knowledge and expertise to
sort of hear some of the thingsthat we're doing in order to innovate,
because looking at you know, whatyou're talking about in your paper and everything
is like we have to have thosedifferent perspectives and we have to continue to
innovate in order for this industry tocontinue to grow and evolve, because it
isn't the same as it always hasbeen. I mean, they unveiled what

(28:38):
you could use that attachment splatter forexample, through Phoenix at the at the
conference, So like that's already innovationthat we're seeing happen. But what if
we didn't all have to start atzero? Yeah, yeah, I completely
agree. And I think, Imean, governments have a role to play
in all this as well. IMean, I just I think it's interesting,

(29:00):
like just going back to that youknow, supposed golden age of you
know, vinyl record making, whenyou know, people like Flow and others
were kind of really almost digging stuffout of the trash and then kind of
restoring you know, some of thisequipment. You know. I think it
also kind of just it tells usthat actually this repair work and restoration work

(29:25):
and that kind of stuff really shouldbe incentivized, right, And I mean,
from my point, of view,like you shouldn't tax any of that.
Like, you know, if ifyou're doing some kind of you know,
if somebody's doing some repair work forsomebody else, I mean government should
basically say that is you know,that is providing value to society, and
we want to encourage that, youknow. So I think those kinds of

(29:47):
things should really be encouraged in anyway possible so that we don't lose we
don't lose the skills, and wealso don't actually lose the actual equipment,
so that we don't just let ityou know, rotten and basically just throw
it away and then make something newagain, but that we actually try to
you know, use the stuff that'sthat's been out there for a while.

(30:07):
I mean that's the incredible thing aboutsome of these machines right from that people
are still using machines that are almostone hundred years old in some cases to
cut records. Yeah, that isI mean, you know, if you
think about doing the same thing witha machine that was made maybe in the
nineteen nineties, that probably wouldn't bepossible because of in built upsolescence, right.
Yeah, well, I mean it'sit's like if you liken it to

(30:29):
cars, right, Like some ofthose engineers, some of those incredible mastering
engineers, are working on a ModelT every day, and I mean and
and having to understand how to domaintenance on their Model T because exactly,
like I mean, I didn't thinkthat I was ever going to have to

(30:51):
be more mechanically inclined than I wasbefore. And maybe now I've got an
entire like tool chest, like moreAllen keys than Nikia, Like like,
I understand how to do things thatI never would have thought of before five
years ago, and now I haveto kind of do them on the daily
so that I can make sure thatmy machine operates. And like, yeah,

(31:14):
I didn't absolutely have to do that. I was like, what,
but I think these are really likereally valuable skills, right, I mean
I was you mentioned Jesus Agnew before, right, And so I mean he's
somebody who works he works with machinesand he restores them that are sometimes really
one hundred years old. I thinkhe even has a machine which is over
one hundred years old as well workshopand he he you know, he actually

(31:37):
uses them, which is incredible.And one of the things he mentioned as
well is that I mean he kindof started doing that because he just went
to a machine shop and said,hey, can you make you know one
or two or three of these specificparts? And the people the machine shop
were like, first of all,we don't know how to do this.

(32:00):
Secondly, we don't want to doit. Like if you want to have
a thousand, okay, we canhave a look at that and we'll program
our C and C machine or whatever, and then we'll you know, we
can talk and then of those athousand, you know, maybe if you
will meet those specific you know,specifications that that you're after in terms of

(32:22):
the tolerances and whatever. And thenyou think about how crazy that is,
right that you know, to makeyou know, a small volume of something,
you're basically just throwing a lot away. And that again goes to the
point of, you know, Ithink it would be really great if people
have that knowledge and could actually youknow, do these things themselves, which

(32:45):
would be much more sustainable. Yeah, it's easier to take on like a
person too, because I mean thatthat's one of the things I keep I
think that keeps a lot of masteringengineers, record cutters from having more assistance
and interns is because it's so specialized. It's so expensive that we can't afford

(33:09):
in our livelihoods to have a rookiejust like willy nilly on our lates,
because we don't know what's going tohappen. Like notwithstanding, like I cut
plastic, that's fine, there's lotsof plastic too, emotion plastic. But
you know, there's only one providerof laquers. So anybody that is a

(33:30):
mastering engineer that is actually making lackers, you know, they have to get
from a limited supply and then tryand impart that knowledge on someone that's just
gonna, you know, maybe dropthe cutter head too quickly, so AI
they're breaking a stylus, b they'reruining a laquer you know. So that's
just like a very expensive endeavor altogether. And that's why again I think

(33:51):
it needs to start at least formastering and cutting in the college level,
where you know, they can cuttheir friends bands, local bands, they
can cut the marching band whatever,to have that practice in order to get
in. Because it's true, likethere's somebody and I won't name who,
but that sent me a job recommendationthat they were looking for an apprentice,

(34:12):
and the apprentice that they were lookingfor may as well have been Chris Mara.
I mean like there was absolutely noway that they were ever going to
find somebody for that apprenticeship because thatperson studio tape experience back. I mean,
that person would have been had tobuild their own machinery that It's just
that person doesn't exist, and soI don't think that those kind of careers

(34:32):
are going to be filled. Butthen when you look at the pressing side
where I'm at, I want someonethat we can bring in and start teaching
so then they can go somewhere else, and then that innovation and actually pressing,
you know, we get more ofthe Heath wax Mage of the world
happening because they already come in knowinghow to press, and that's something that

(34:54):
can be done, you know,in the workforce level. But it's all
it's all different because electroplating, like, where does that fit? That's the
whole kitchen. In the kitchen well, I mean the thing that electroplating is
interesting as well. I mean thefirst time I came across it, it

(35:15):
was like, whoa, this isso specialized. Nobody in the world does
have to do this, and thisis so weird. Growing metal, and
then you do talk to people youknow who know a little bit about other
industries and they're like, well,you know, this is totally common in
other industries if you want to,you know, make flat metal parts exactly.
Yeah. So it's it's not like, you know, this is so

(35:36):
esoteric, even though it's often calledlike the dark arts, you know that's
electroplating is like no, I mean, it's it is super interesting. What
do you think is the biggest threatto all of this? Is it?
Because like these pockets are going todie out? Do you think it is
the like the regional separation of things? Like I'm actually quite optimistic about it,

(36:00):
don't even I don't think there isactually, you know, this this
big threat that it's going to dieout. I think as you were saying
before, I mean today people haveresources that weren't available before. You know,
you can there's stuff on YouTube nowand on the Secret you know Society
of Late Trolls for them which andwhich is a secret. It is a

(36:22):
secret. But we love everybody tocome in and join and donate to Steve
Espinola to keep it going because thatis one of the only commercially global accessible
places about cutting records, mastering andall of those, all of those wonderful.
Yeah, I mean it also takesa while to actually get into.

(36:44):
Right. It's not like super userfriendly, is it. But I mean
neither is mastering lol. But womenin Vinyl is and you can donate to
us too, exactly do that.But I think I think you know today
there are certain resource versus that areavailable which do make it easier for people.
So we shouldn't we shouldn't forget that, and including of course your your

(37:07):
initiatives, and so I think Ithink we should be optimistic about these things.
And sometimes, I mean, thiswas also some of the interesting stuff
that I found. I mean,sometimes these things are completely unexpected, like
you've mentioned at least in one episode. Of course I didn't write down which

(37:28):
episode it was, but you mentionedthe scientologists for instance. Yeah, and
we have a bunch of the there. Yeah, you said, you know,
they're kind of they're taking them,they're taking them out of the industry,
so to speak, right, andso that's kind of bad for the
industry. And and I'm not goingto speak in defense of the scientologists,

(37:49):
okay, but I'm also not goingto say anything negative about them because I
don't want to hear a knock onthe door. Yeah, but funny story
book the spirit. But funny story. They actually, inadvertently like they did,

(38:10):
actually play a role in preserving viralrecord manufacturing in a way. And
so you might already know this story. I actually originally had it in my
publication in my paper, but thenI had to take it out because we
didn't have enough space. But theinteresting thing is, so, you know,

(38:30):
if we're talking about skills that wereat risk of dying out, one
of them was actually making you know, the diamond stylusts for for dm M,
And there was literally one person inthe world who was making them around
up until fairly recently actually, andthis is before Stephen of my you know,

(38:53):
my Shank, who you're also familiarwith, and started doing the same
thing, and they were experiments byother people. But there for for a
certain period, for a certain timeperiod, there were there were no other
people doing it. There was oneelderly person, I think he was in
his eighties. He was changed,you know, a chain smoker and people

(39:15):
are really worthy. He was goingto die any second, basically. But
the funny thing is, so thisone guy was basically supplying the entire world.
I mean, there weren't that many, you know, clients who were
into DMM. It is basically uh, you know, pressing plants and continental
Europe uh and and the scientologists basically. And so the funny thing was,

(39:42):
so the story goes that he wasbasically making one or two of these stylight
a month and that was good interms of supplementing his pension. And he
was doing that and suddenly he getsthese two huge orders and one of them
is from g Z in the CzechRepublic and one of them is from Scientology.
And so suddenly he gets he getsan order of like he has to

(40:05):
do forty, and he was like, I don't know how to do forty
and and and apparently he was gettingworried as well that if he did actually
make forty, he would because eachone he sold like for at least a
thousand euros or something, and sothat would actually be a substantial source of
income which he'd have to declare andand you know, he'd have to deal

(40:30):
with the tax authorities and all thatkind of stuff, and he didn't want
to do that. And so actuallyby placing these large orders, he became
more open to actually showing somebody else, uh, you know, and basically
selling this business to somebody else,selling that knowledge and his equipment and flow
and and a friend of his inGermany. His name is no Martin.

(41:00):
Oh yeah, okay, I knowMartin in Hamburg. They kept trying to
get his knowledge. They kept saying, please show us how to do this,
you know, and we will reimburseyou, and we're going to support
you and everything. We're not tryingto compete with you, but we really
do want, you know, kindof to preserve this. And and then

(41:20):
he kept say no. And thenat some point when he got this huge
order, he was like okay,you know, he kind of like,
okay, I'll show you how todo this, and and then and then
Flow and Martin basically got this diamondgrinder to be his apprentice. So they
established that relationship between you know,this diamond grinding business and and this guy.

(41:43):
And so that's how that was keptalive. So today there is a
company in Germany called Indie Mont,which now is the successor of this you
know, this elderly guy whose namewas Lemann. Oh yeah, anyway,
so that was kept alive, youknow, and that was purely coincidentally,
because it yeah, because the scientologistsand GZ both placed large orders at the

(42:08):
same time. I mean, yeah, coming back to like, you know
what, what is keeping these thingsalive? You know, I mentioned Japan
earlier, and it's not a coincidencethat the only lacquer manufacturer, the last
one standing, is in Japan.And actually the only maker of the sapphire

(42:29):
styley is also in Japan, whichis now owned by well the company they
renamed themselves. They're called Orbray now. And it does come down to I
mean, those companies are interesting becausethey are family businesses. They're traditional family
businesses, and they they have thesense of commitment to their founder and to

(42:53):
their customer base. So it wasreally interesting. I mean when I went
there, it was was really youknow, a great adventure to go to
this, to that lacker manufacturer,which is really in the middle. It's
really in a rural area in theso called Japanese Alps. So again from
the Austrian Alps to the Japanese Apps. Now we're just a bunch of hermits

(43:15):
like that at the end of theday. That's what it is, like,
leave me alone. I just wantto say, but it's a wonderful,
wonderful place. I mean, yougo there and they have a local
whiskey distillery they have they make theymake like really you know, things from
from that region. So it's reallykind of a craft based you know,

(43:37):
community or town you could say,over there. And so it kind of
really fits right in there for somereason. And and I was speaking to
the CEO, who doesn't speak anyEnglish, by the way, so I
had an interpreter there who's a youknow, really really nice person who's who's
working there. And and then itwas it was typical you know, lost

(43:58):
in translation moment where you ask questionthe answers you know, gives a very
long Japanese answer, And so Iasked, you know, so would you
keep going or what would make youkeep making these, you know, lacker
discs if if they weren't you know, very profitable, like would you still

(44:19):
keep keep making them? Or whydo you still keep making them? Because
they actually also have other divisions,they have other businesses, and I don't
even know if that's their most profitableit might be their most profitable division.
I have no idea, but it'sa very small family business. And and
so anyways, I asked him,you know, why why do you keep
doing this? And then he gaveus long answer, and then the interpreter

(44:42):
said, because if we stopped makingthem, people would be sad. That's
a very Japanese answer, but it'salso a culture that's very tradition and craft.
Yeah, and it's the same thingwith the with the sapphire stylist manufacturer.
I mean they it's literally less thana handful of people who are actually

(45:07):
you know, polishing these things orwho know how to grind and polish them.
And it's actually quite a big companyand they could easily just divest that
or just say we're not doing thisanymore. But again I asked them,
like why do you keep why doyou keep doing it? And they were
like, no, we are justso committed to doing this. You know,
it's it's like one percent of ourbusiness, but we are completely committed.

(45:30):
That's very different from like the NorthAmerican tradition where like it's not profitable,
let's just get rid of it.Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yes, this is why we're tryingto make the kiddo's excited so that
we can all still love jobs.Well, so, because we're getting close

(45:51):
on time, and we want toask you our traditional last question to sum
it up, what do you feelis the way forward or what is your
hope for how the industry will continueto grow? Yes, I mean I
probably don't have a super answer forthis. I think, you know,

(46:13):
I think what we were talking aboutbefore, you know, those are some
of the most important things. It'slike, it does come down to education,
it does come down to basically showingpeople that, you know, keeping
these things alive is valuable, evenif they're not super money making operations,
and just for the sake of doingthat. I mean, I think,

(46:37):
yeah, Robin, you mentioned SteveEspinola before I visited him in New York
and he also said the same thing. He said, like, yeah,
you know, I like having recordssimply because I have the option of having
vinyl records. It's yes, youknow, there might be scratched and they

(46:58):
might not sound you know, great, but I have the option and it's
just wonderful to have that. AndI think, you know, kind of
again reinforcing this message that you know, it's it's it's good if people have
all these different options to explore,to play with, because a lot of
interesting things can come out of that. So yeah, that's I'm actually quite

(47:21):
optimistic. I think that there wasa period in the nineteen nineties and early
two thousands when people were pretty muchthinking, hey, you know what,
we don't need all these manual craftsand all these old technologies. We're just
going to go switch to you know, new highly automated stuff. It's better.
And then people realize that, actually, you know, that you lose

(47:44):
something, right if you just kindof get rid of all that old stuff.
And so it's not totally coincidental that, you know, I'm looking at
other crafts, you have the samething that happened in many other industries for
some reason. The end of thelast century was a period where a lot
of these things went down, andthen we started seeing rebound, you know,
seeing these things rebound again fairly recently. So I think in general people

(48:09):
have realized that there is value,you know, and in keeping these things
alive. So yeah, I wouldactually be quite optimistic. So I like
that. That's a good place towrap it. I think. I mean,
we're definitely going to have to havea part two because I have a
big questions. Yeah, we didn'teven talk about about embossing and and all

(48:32):
that stuff, which is you know, interesting as well. But you did
have Mi Mike Dixon on your onyour podcast, and so the weird uncle
of all of our record cutting community. But he's he's he's somebody who also
I mean, he's a he's aformer teacher, right and and he you

(48:54):
know, he did tell me aboutdoing cutting demonstrations and schools and so I
think he probably plays a big rolein all of this as well. And
he's also somebody who makes you know, restored mono lads available to people.
So he's he's the good Mike DixonRecordlathparts dot Com host the Lathe Cutting Camp.

(49:17):
We send people to it to justlike get their feet wet, you
know, it's it's a it's agood time. I've never even been there.
I wish that I would have knownthat it was a thing before I
jumped into to just be like whatam I doing? Okay? But instead
I went to the making final conferenceand I found him and I was like,
let's be best friends, and he'slike, who are you? So,

(49:39):
I mean I took it to theextreme, as I do with everything,
But I mean, I think there'sthere's a lot to be excited about
and it's it's reinforcing, I think, for us in our message and what
we're trying to do to see thatsomebody in academia sees it the way that

(49:59):
we do, yeah, because Imean it gives it a little bit more
legitimacy. But it also is justlike, oh okay, like we're not
the only ones, which is great. You're absolutely right, And I do
get objections often where people are like, you know, so why should we
care? Because that is kind ofeven in my field, you know,
because it's a business school. Peoplelike to talk about creating new things and

(50:22):
growth, and it's just like keepingthings alive is like not really interesting to
most people. And I think that'swrong, because I think that I found
it, you know, when Iwas doing the study very very interesting,
because to keep something alive you needto put in a lot of work and
it doesn't just happen by itself.And actually understanding what that work entails is

(50:45):
I think really really important too tounderstand. Yeah, I mean it's kind
of kind of beautiful too, withthe history of recorded sound and like we
get the luxury of having these artifactsfrom the nineteen hundreds and before, and
just like seeing we're well our globalculture has come from and what we valued
enough to put into a physical medium. Like they were compelled by music that

(51:09):
they loved so much that they werelike, how can I have this in
my house to listen to it wheneverI want to, Like, we need
to kind of get back to thatrather than this like passive background, you
know, les a fair version ofbeing fans of music, in my opinion,

(51:30):
so that we can also keep havingjobs, which would be great.
But I mean, like I thinkthat's like that's part of the thing,
right to understand where you are,you have to understand where you've come from,
and like there's all of this.I mean, I have a seventy
eight in my collection from like nineteenoh four and it's like two British ladies
talking over tea, and I meanit sounds horrific, but I think it

(51:52):
is awesome. Like, I thinkit's an important thing that we're kind of
neglecting in that story too. Butto wrap this up because we have to.
Unfortunately, as a as a listenerof the podcast, you are well
informed of what is coming, sir, so I am interested to see what

(52:14):
this is going to sound like.I mean, it might be sonic youth,
then that would be okay with me. If you could make a seven
inch record in your basement, cuttingan A side and cutting a B side
just for your own little pause tohave, what would that seven inch record
look like? Okay, So Ihave thought too long about this. I

(52:35):
love this and I'm gonna I'm goingto become all nerdy now because all the
way to eleven I love it.Yeah, there was there was. You
had this guy Stephen Coates who talkedabout the X ray. Yeah, yeah,
now it was episode twenty two.I wrote this down in case anybody
wants to go back to that.We've come so far, and he was

(53:00):
talking about, you know, kindof hypothetically if he could find, you
know, a lost recording some presenter, and I was thinking, yeah,
you know, I'd like to dothe same thing. And I what I'd
really really like to get my handson and what I would cut onto a
record if I could, would bean excerpt of a lecture This is why

(53:22):
it's super nerdy of a lecture bythe Austrian British philosopher Ludvig Wittgenstein. So
you probably never heard of him,but one of the some people would argue
the most you know, important philosopherof the twentieth century. And first of

(53:45):
all, because there is no knownrecording of him, even though he was
actually he was an engineer. Hewas interested in all kinds of things.
I'm sure. I'm pretty sure helistened to two records as well, and
he was a you know, anaccomplished p and all kinds of stuff.
But there's no known recording of him. So if I could find one out,

(54:06):
that would be fantastic, not leastbecause I'm sure he had a really
funny accent, So having kind ofArnold Schwarzenegger type accent reading out some deep
philosophical statements, that would just behilarious. I mean, I feel like
we need to do that on theAI generator. Think just I love that.

(54:28):
So many Arnold Swarzenegger videos going onsay you can have both technology and
analog. Yeah, no, that'sright, you probably could, I think,
I think, I mean, thatwould be funny, but it would
also just be really interesting if thatcould be salvage from some Apparently I did
do too much research on this.Apparently people have really tried to find recordings

(54:50):
of him and have always failed,and even the the the composer Steve Reich
tried and failed. So there's alot of interest in this. So if
I could find that and cut it, of course I would. And then
in terms of the B side,there is a famous argument between Wittgenstein and

(55:12):
his and another Austrian British philosopher.His name is called Popper, and they
apparently got into an argument in Cambridgeand almost it almost became violent. And
I'd like to have that altercation.There would be two men who have weird
Arles Schwarzenegger type accidents talking about somephilosophical you know, argument and then almost

(55:39):
coming to blows this track in realtime. I love it. I love
it. That's great. That mightbe my favorite seven inch hypothetical sevenage that
we've ever come across. Awesome,Rene, thank you so much for blessing
us with your research and your timeand into our space two, I mean,

(56:04):
help show all the world that weknow what we're talking about over here.
Yeah, and to expand past ournetwork, you know, into the
academic world. I think that's reallyawesome and important. So thank you,
No, thank you, awesome,Well, thank you again, and we'll
talk soon. Yeah, have thebest day, man, Yeah, thank
you so much for having me andthanks for making this work. I mean

(56:25):
with the time differences, it's it'snot it's not easy. Well, thank
you again. Thanks to the bestday. Thanks for listening. Don't forget
to like, subscribe and leave usa review on your favorite podcast platform.
Join the conversation on social media atWomen in Vinyl. We want to hear
from you, Shoot us a messagefor topics you want to hear, feedback

(56:50):
and more to info at Women inVinyl dot com. Huge shout out and
thank you for all our supporters,affiliates and sponsors like Marshall Headphones at our
website Womenanvinyl dot com for ways toget involved, and you can always contribute
to the education, demonstification and diversificationof the vinyl industry by donating at Women

(57:10):
Invinyl dot com slash donate. Seeyou next time. This episode has been
brought to you by Women in Vinyland Red Spade Records. Thank you for
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Episode 53 - Dr. Rene Wiedner, University of Warwick

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Episode 53 - Dr. Rene Wiedner, University of Warwick