Cosmic Conflict: Biblical Prophecy, History, and the Final Battle

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
We've got cosmic spiritual warfare between God and the forces
of the evil. Most Christians have a pretty good idea
of the history of Israel up to seventy eight, but
after that it just drops off the table. And that's
one of the big problems. We barkat the Ruvot. In

(00:25):
one point thirty five, when that was defeated by the Romans,
Emperor Hadrian said, I've had enough of these people. I'm
done with them. So they plowed the city of Jerusalem
under and he renamed Jerusalem Aleiah capital Alena, and also
named the region Palestine. It was actually named after the
Philistines to get rid of the Jewishness of the area.

Speaker 2 (00:56):
Welcome to the War Room.

Speaker 3 (00:57):
My name's Kyle milholland thank you for joining me on
the Word at War. My guest on the show today
is biblical research or teacher and author mac Dominic and
we're going to be discussing his book, Cosmic Conflict, Jerusalem
Versus Babylon takes readers on a journey through time, incorporating theology, history,
and geopolitics at tracing the flow of this cosmic war

(01:20):
from the Garden of Eden to today's Middle East conflicts.

Speaker 2 (01:23):
Fairly relevant.

Speaker 3 (01:24):
I would say anti Semitism and global politics are also
a part of the book, and we're going to get
into that a little bit today.

Speaker 2 (01:29):
Is how all that ties.

Speaker 3 (01:30):
Together along the way in the book, readers will be
urged to not just observe, but to become soldiers in
the battle for righteousness. It isn't just a retelling of
biblical events. It's a call to arms. So that is
the Amazon excerpt from his book, Cosmic Conflicts. So I'm
excited today to talk to my new friend Mac Dominic.

Speaker 2 (01:51):
Mac. Thanks for joining me, man.

Speaker 1 (01:52):
Oh, thank you, Kyl. It is such a pleasure.

Speaker 3 (01:55):
Yeah, brother, we were talking a little before we hit record,
and I'm really excited to get into this today because
you know, you do such a good job of highlighting
this ancient story that we can read in the Bible,
but you do it in a way to tie it
into and there's a lot of threads to that, right,
a lot of threads that need to be woken together
in order to get to today, because we're covering thousands

(02:16):
of years of history and you did such a beautiful
job of that. And I can't encourage everyone highly enough
to go pick up a copy of your book, and
you're gonna hear me say that a few times during
this show. So, but you know, getting to where we
kind of end the Bible just to kind of set
all this flow of conversation up today, you know, we

(02:37):
have all the way until you know Jesus's time, and
then you know, I think the latest thing that we have,
according to historians, is the Book of Revelation, which was
written around ninety a D.

Speaker 2 (02:48):
And we have seventy a D.

Speaker 3 (02:49):
Which Christ kind of highlights during his time with the
destruction of Jerusalem, but really after that, you know, the
thing that the book does a beautiful job of is
catching us up on the history. Was great for me,
catching us up on the history from that time in
seventy a d. And all the things that have led
up to today, and that history is so critically important

(03:13):
to understand the politics of today. You know, any any
person that has a desire to be stupid and wants
to go and get a flag and your yay Palestine,
let's create the mistate probably suffers from a lack of
understanding of history.

Speaker 2 (03:31):
We're going to get into that.

Speaker 1 (03:33):
Yeah, they have no understanding at all of what really.

Speaker 3 (03:36):
Happened zero yeah, or you know some of the groups,
like you know, you had made a mention for you know,
in the book Queers for Palestine, the lunacy of that thinking,
because they will literally kill you, you know, the religious extremists.
And again we'll get into this as we kind of
travel through, you know, kind of highlight points of the book.

(03:57):
Near the you know, end of the book, we get
more into that because it's more modern day. But you know,
the militants have been the one that have completely taken
over in every situation where there's been any attempt at
some kind of second state.

Speaker 2 (04:11):
It seems like that's right.

Speaker 1 (04:13):
Well, you know, as Chuck Missler said so many times,
Palestinians never miss an opportunity, to miss an opportunity.

Speaker 2 (04:22):
Yeah, that was that was the book. I love enjoyed
reading that. It's very true.

Speaker 3 (04:26):
Yeah, man, So you know, before we get started on
this journey, I do want to highlight you and just
kind of share your story man.

Speaker 2 (04:33):
You know.

Speaker 3 (04:33):
So the beautiful thing about this, just to kind of
set it up for everybody, is I met Mac at
a conference that was actually on the north side of Indianapolis.
So it's the Mysteries of the Bible verse conference. I
would highly encourage everybody to go check that out as well.
It travels around from year to year, so get your
tickets for next year. And you know, it was fun
because one of the things he said was this all
really started off is kind of a Sunday School study.

(04:57):
Ultimately it's route So Mac please do share your histor
there and a little bit more of that story.

Speaker 1 (05:02):
Well, let's start at the beginning. I was born again
as an eighteen year old, and when and I went
off to Christian College. And when I graduated, my pastor
immediately said, oh, you're a Christian college graduate, you need
to be teaching Sunday school. So I began as a
Sunday school teacher at age twenty one, and I've been

(05:24):
teaching Sunday school ever since. I started with I started
with young people and I am now doing an adult
class and it's really the highlight of my week to
teach Sunday school. I am called of God to be
a Sunday school teacher, and I believe that every Sunday
school teacher should be called to that job and not

(05:46):
just you know, doing it or going through a workbook
or whatever. So you know, I my Sunday school class
is a little bit different. It is. I'm not everybody's
cup of tea, because we make people think, and that's
the goal is to is to let people think about

(06:08):
the Word of God and meditate on the Word of
God and see what they've missed all their life. Because unfortunately,
in my opinion, and I hate to say things like this,
but in most Bible believing churches that I've been in
all my life, the adult sundayschool classes are about on
a third grade level. We hear stories that we've heard

(06:29):
over and over again, and people learn little to nothing,
and so we try to make our class more interesting,
more in depth. Most people tell me it's more like
a college level course, but a lot of people don't
want that, you know. I'll give you one example. I
had a lady back a few years ago. She had

(06:49):
been to my class for two Sundays, and she came
up to me after the class and said, you know,
you're really a good teacher, but this is just too
much for me right now. I've got too much going
on in my life to put all this mind space
into understanding what we're talking about here. And you know, I,
you know, I wasn't. I was okay with that because

(07:11):
if she came to me and said, well, because if
you talked, I'm leaving the church, that's one thing. But
she just left the class and so and so that's
kind of where we are and we uh and so
I've been doing this for a long time, over fifty
years now, and this book is actually my Sunday School

(07:32):
lesson from last year. I happened to be up at
Southwest Radio doing something with the guys, and I was
showing him the PowerPoint. This is a I think it's
four hundred and eighty PowerPoint slides in the lesson and.

Speaker 2 (07:47):
Chunky, yeah, a little chunky.

Speaker 1 (07:49):
And I was showing some of the slides to Micah
and Clayton and some of the guys up there, and
Matthew Hill came in and said, hey, this is good stuff.
Can you turn this into a book? That was of
last first of June last year? And I said, yeah,
I think I can because I've basically done all the research.
He said, good, can you get me a book uh
to our printing press by September first? Uh? And I said,

(08:14):
I don't know, but I did, and so that and
I and I fortunately uh I am retired, and so
I was. I spent ten to twelve hours a day.
I discovered that, you know, getting up and teaching is
one thing, but when you have to document, footnote, reference everything,

(08:35):
that's that was the biggest job of putting out the
book because I had, you know, I had all the
research done, I had all the pros pretty much in
my head. But boy, getting the references right. It's easy
to get up and say, well, Chuck Messinger said this,
but when did he say it, where did he say it?
Did he write it? What? You know? And those types
of things absolutely were the were the big part of

(08:58):
producing this. But but I put it out. I did
it in three months or four months whatever, June June
until the end of August. I finished up right around
September first, got it to them and they printed it,
and we got and we had it ready for a
conference where they wanted to introduce it. So that's that's
how that went. But I've been doing this, I've been printing,
I've been teaching Sunday School. That's basically what I am.

(09:20):
I'm not. I don't see myself as a great Bible scholar.
I am a The Lord has blessed me, and I
ask for illumination, and I asked the Father to lead
me into all truth so I can find the truth
and convey it to others. But I am more of

(09:40):
a I guess what you call a systems integrator. I
take all of all of the truth that the Lord
leads me to and I try to put it together
in a form that would be beneficial to my Sunday
school class and anyone else who would like to listen,
that we can learn more and get closer to the
Lord and get more in depth in his word. And

(10:02):
that's who I am and what I do.

Speaker 3 (10:04):
Yeah, man, that's beautifully said. And you definitely have the
heart of a teacher. There's no doubt about that. It
came very clear to me when I saw you speak
at the conference and even more so when I read
the book. You know, because I'm wired a lot like
you are. You know, I have a heart and a
passion for God's Word that finally came alive in me
about age forty. And I just love to teach people, man,

(10:26):
because I love to see them. I want to watch
someone else experience those light bulb moments that I had.
You know, I think that's so amazing to have that happening.

Speaker 1 (10:37):
It is. And if I can take one more minute
and give one more illustration here, I think it would
I think it would help you mentioned age forty, I
had the same thing happen about age forty. Now I'm
now seventy three, so it's just quite a number of
years ago. But in age forty, my son was going
to a private Christian school and my son and daughter

(10:59):
were both going to this Robert Christian School. And we
had a young man and his wife that were missionaries
that were going to a university that happened to me
where the high school was at the same place, and
they were carpooling. We were carpooling with them, and they
would take my son and daughter to school. And when
they graduated university and they went in full time with

(11:21):
Child of Angelism Fellowship, they would use our house as
a base of operation when they go out on deputation
to raise support to do their mission work with Child
of Angelism Fellowship. And I was about forty years old
and I had been here again. I've been teaching Sunday
School at this point for nineteen years, and this guy

(11:45):
left this book laying around my house by a lady
by the name of Johanna Michaelson, and the name of
the book was like Lambs to the Slaughter, and it
was it is a book about the effect of the
New Age Movement owned school children. And of course in
nineteen ninety this has just really been rolling up since
about nineteen eighty, so it was a little bit more

(12:06):
of a current event than it is now. But I
picked that book up and started reading it because it
just was laying around my house. And the book was
very interesting. But you know, I live in South Carolina,
and it was about what was happening in the schools
and everywhere, the effect of the New Age movement on children,

(12:27):
and I'm like, well, this is happening in California somewhere,
not here. This is the Bible Belt for after all.
But the really interesting part of the book that really
got my attention was there were appendixes in the back
where she wrote about the beliefs and the quotes of
the people that were actually involved in the New Age movement,

(12:49):
David Spangler and people such as that that were espousing
these philosophies and doctrines. And it blew me away because
I've always been interested in Bible prophecy, and reading those
appendances was like reading Bible prophecy from the opposite perspective.

(13:10):
It was as if Satan was saying, Okay, this is
what is going to happen, and this is how I'm
going to accomplish it. And that blew me away. So
I decided that since I didn't know anything about any
of this stuff, I was going to do a two
week series on the New Age movement for my adult
Sunday school class that I was teaching at the time.

(13:32):
And so I did my first lesson and after Sunday school,
between Sunday School and the worship service, people in my
class came up to me and said, Mac, this is
what they're teaching our kids in school. We didn't know
what it was, but it's exactly what you told us
this morning in class. And that broke my heart. And

(13:55):
I was sitting there before church and I was and
I was praying. I said, Lord, someone's got to tell
these people what's going on. And the Holy Spirit seemed
to say say to me, not an audible voice, no
Isaiah moment where or Ezekiel moment where he's spoke in

(14:15):
a still small voice, but in my heart, the Lord
seemed to say to me, yes, and you're going to
do it. And I was never so driven to do
anything in my life. And I started researching the New
Age movement. And when you start researching the New Age Movement,
you get into pagan religions, new world order, all kinds

(14:37):
of things that you didn't even realize was happening in
the world, you know. And so that's how I got
really on the path that I've been on for the
last thirty three years, was because that influenced me greatly.
We had a gentleman here in South Carolina by the
name Mike Fair. He was a state representative. He had

(15:00):
introduced an anti New Age teaching bill in the state legislature.
It didn't it didn't pass. But what I had what
I always did when I started reading people's names like this,
I called Mike Fair up and on the phone and
I said, Representative Fair, can you help me with this?

(15:23):
He said, I can more than help you. He said,
if you if you're interested in teaching and learning about
the New Age Movement, I've got a banker's box full
of stuff here in my office. Come on down here
and I'll give it to you, and so he had
all this research information and I went through that, and
I found other names and started calling those people up

(15:45):
and got and got into a network to learn more
about it, where I had, you know, have to way
to you what I was talking about basically. And it
was a very enlightening period of time. My friends thought
I'd lost my mind. I had my nose stuck in
a book all the time. But you know, and and

(16:07):
my family, fortunately they you know, they were willing to
put up with my eccentric, eccentric behavior, and and I
and we produced some articles and things along those lines
with the New Age. But that's how I met the
people that would eventually lead to my coming in contact

(16:28):
with Southwest and the publishing of this book.

Speaker 3 (16:31):
Wow, and funny how God puts the stones in the
creek it is, you know, to guide you across. It's amazing. No,
everything is intentional. And it's funny too, because everything that
has happened in your past God will use for your
president and your future. You know, as abstract as it
seems to you in the moment, God will use it

(16:52):
for his glory if you let him do that, and
you truly turn your life over to him. And that
there are you highlighted beautifully the excerpt that I'd asked
you if I could read, And I'll get to that
in a second, but before we do that, I want
to dive into this. I hadn't plan on this, but
I think it's important and I want to dive into
it a little bit more. Highlight some of the basic

(17:14):
precepts of the New Age Movement for someone who is
not familiar with this, so that because you know, obviously
there's gonna be a lot of people listening to this
that have children and have young children. So I think
it's really important for us to talk about.

Speaker 1 (17:25):
This, Okay. Uh. The New Age Movement began really in
the late seventies. In nineteen eighty I think or eighty one,
I can't remember the year. Marilyn Ferguson published a book
that became the New Age Bible, but it was a
it was a major work that really spurred a lot

(17:50):
of a lot of this. Maybe you can look it
up and find anywhere. Her name is Marilyn Ferguson, and
she and she became the pros of the New Age.
In a nutshell, the New Age movement teaches that we
are all really gods that you are God, I am God.

(18:10):
It's monistic. It's Pane's monistic. Pantheism is what it is.
And it infiltrated everything. And you see it, and we
saw it illustrated in the schools with teachers setting up
meditation chambers. Transcendental meditation was a way to contact your

(18:32):
spirit God. You listen to your spirit God, and your
spirit God directed your life. And the only thing this
was doing to people, it was putting them into contact
with demonic forces or the old gods. Really one or
the other. Demons and angels are different. I don't know
how many people realize that. But fallen demons are not

(18:55):
fallen angels. But demons dwell in the spiritual realm, and
they have a big effect because they're always looking for
a body to him to possess. Fallen angels can embody anytime,
they won't. That's the that's the big difference. But but
it led people into direct contact on a massive level

(19:18):
with with the demonic uh. And you had people like
the Beatles who introduced the marishi uh into the into
the United States. The Yogi what is Mauritia Yogi? I
can't remember his name, but they but they brought him
in and they brought Eastern religion into the into the culture,

(19:40):
into the hippie culture of the United States in the
nineteen sixties. Uh. And so we see that the hippie
culture was not just a rebellion against the against society,
it was also a religious movement. Uh. And then when
you get the drugs involved, because the way to ad
access to your spirit God is meditation, hypnosis, and drugs

(20:05):
and hallucinogenic drugs was was a were a big deal
in getting people in contact with the spirit world and
all of that was linked to the New Age movement.
And that's and it had such a huge effect on
our culture because we saw it in we saw it

(20:26):
in politics, we saw it, we see it all over.
And you have these people that that came along and
some of the notable names, you know, Charles Manson for instance,
in the Manson family that was a New Age drug fest.
Those those people in the Manson family thought Charlie was
was Christ because he said he was God and he

(20:49):
was the Christ. And they look at the and they
don't when they use that terminology the Christ, they're not
talking about Jesus Christ. They're talking about a Christ spirit
which was which which? Uh? The new Ager said Jesus had,
Buddha had and other people that actually ascended to that level.

(21:10):
And Charles Manson was one of the same ones. He
thought he was. He had the christ spirit and that's
how he got all those people to follow him. It
was a demonic culture that that he created there uh
and spawn ranch uh and and that's just one prime
example of how all that can go south for everybody

(21:31):
and for innocent people. But that's but that's the danger.
But when you get into when you had teachers teaching
children how to meditate and get in contact with their
spirit God. That's what was going on in the schools.
That was going on in the schools right here locally
we found teachers that were putting meditation chambers in the
classroom uh and uh. And they were claiming to be

(21:55):
good Christian people, but they were they were doing it
under the guise of Christianity, because after all, Jesus was
a christ figure. And so that's and that's what that's
what went on uh in the uh in in that culture,
and it threat spent spread through modern culture. And you know, anyone,

(22:15):
the problem we have now is the people that are
my age or maybe a little older, who were involved
in hallucig illucigens uh in uh, massive marijuana use and
all of that. And you don't and don't believe that
I smoked but I didn't inhale. Uh mister Clinton, remember

(22:37):
remember that Bill Clinton said, Yeah, I smoke marijuana, but
I never inhale those those people and you and you
look at and you look at the people that were
involved uh with uh with all of these movements and uh,
and it got into the political room world. They were
Barack Obama's buddies and all of these people uh that

(23:00):
did this, and they became they came under the direct
influence of the demonic and all of a sudden they
the the hippie culture and the New Age movement morphed
into this uh behind the scenes deal where these people
didn't give up on their plans to lead America to

(23:24):
a new world order and and all of those things
that went right along with it. They became teachers, politicians,
and journalists. And that's and that's the problem. That's why
we're facing the problems we're faced today.

Speaker 3 (23:38):
Yeah, no, that's that's absolutely true. It's just like you know,
the the it's this Babylonian spirit. And it's just funny
because that's that's exactly what it is, and that's exactly
what all of this discussion is.

Speaker 2 (23:49):
And it's so funny. It's really when you when you
talk about the essence.

Speaker 3 (23:52):
Of spiritual warfare, which is obviously what my big passion is,
and I think anybody that gets into the Word of
God recognizes that spiritual warfare at the heart of everything
we experience, even in the physical world. Right, it's always
comes back to spiritual warfare. And you know, there are
three seminal events that I feel like are huge components
to that, and it's the third event, the Babylonian event.

(24:13):
The first would be the Garden, second would be Genesis six.
The third event would be Babylonia and a Nimrod and
the Tower of Babbel, which is exactly what we're talking
about today. And we're going to get into more in
detail all of these things. But you can see already
Mac has done a beautiful job of, you know, kind
of highlighting how this spirit is still alive and well

(24:36):
and has only morphed through time. They have just adjusted tactics,
that's all this is. So the tactics might change, but
the spirit of this is still alive. And I did
look it up just for everybody's information. So the Beatles
guru was mash Maharishi Mahesh was his name, Yes, And

(24:57):
then Marilyn Ferguson. There are two two things that probably
you were referencing. One is her first book that I
think really came out in the seventies that started some
of this, was The Brain Revolution.

Speaker 1 (25:07):
Yeah, it was the second one.

Speaker 2 (25:10):
And the second one was the Aquarium Conspiracy.

Speaker 1 (25:12):
Conspiracy? How could I forget that?

Speaker 2 (25:14):
Yep?

Speaker 3 (25:15):
So there you go, easy, easy to forget, and everyone
should I just I just.

Speaker 1 (25:20):
I just need about another gig a ram in my
head and I'd be great.

Speaker 2 (25:23):
Bro, It is not you man.

Speaker 3 (25:25):
We got a lot going on in this life, in
this world, So don't feel bad, man, I would fall
victim to the same thing sometimes. But we do have
the we do have the use of tools today that
we did not have us several years ago, which is beautiful, right, right,
So but there you go, So yeah, talking about all
of this, and you know, we kind of need to
rewind a little bit and let's let's do some setup

(25:46):
of what we're actually talking about here. So we do
I think I've kind of already mentioned here, and I
guess before I do that one of the things you
had said earlier that I just wanted to read this
excerpt because I said it would come back to it
that I think is really important for where we are
as a church, because you had made mentioned earlier that
the church at large, not every church. I'm not trying

(26:08):
to say every church, but the church as a body
in America especially, but I think it could really goes
beyond just America is pretty much dead from the heart
up a lot of times, and definitely the head when
it comes to that depth of spiritual warfare. And instead
of people setting aside, you know, their desire to dogmatically

(26:29):
follow whatever they're taught and read for themselves and actually
have a relationship with God and dive into the word,
they do just cling on to that dogma and it
creates enormous problems. And we kind of get the Ostrich
effect from that, where people just stick their head in
the sand and they pretend that, you know, there's nothing
going on. And this excerpt that you have in your
book on page seventy six highlights this very well, and

(26:52):
it reads as follows, if we as Christians do our
homework and get past the shallowness that permeates the pulpits
of Bible believing churches. We must study to show ourselves approved,
seek the truth, dismiss our preconceived notions, and cling to
the text of the Word of God. So one of
those things that you did beautifully in here is, you know,

(27:14):
is looking beyond the masoretic text and looking to the
Septuagint and things like that to help us get a
thorough understanding of God's words. So but that verse right there,
that passage rather highlights beautifully the heart of what we have,
what we need to get to.

Speaker 2 (27:31):
And where we are in America. So I wanted to
just share that.

Speaker 3 (27:34):
But let's rewind things a little bit and kind of
go back to Babylon right the third event and after
the flood, that is monumentally huge in this cosmic war,
this cosmic conflict between the forces of evil and God,
and you know, just kind of highlight that if you would,

(27:54):
and some of the things that you know the importance
of that event in Babylonia in general.

Speaker 1 (28:00):
Okay, first of all, let me excuse me, let me
let me say that a lot of my information on
Babylon on the Table of Babylon as such came from
doctor Michael Heiser. His teaching opened my eyes to that

(28:22):
situation much more than I had realized. Now I had
a basic understanding of it, and I basically agreed with
what he said before I studied what he had, what
he taught, And and I did not agree with doctor
Heiser on everything I you know, I don't agree with
myself on everything I think.

Speaker 2 (28:42):
But but you know.

Speaker 1 (28:44):
We but we have to take all teaching, whether I
teach it, whether my pastor teaches it, whether Kyle speaks
about something. We have to take everything and compare it
to the Word of God and be good Bereans and
go back and study it for ourselves and let the

(29:04):
Holy Spirit speak to each one of us individually. So
I wanted to preface anything I say with that, because
and I will try to in the course of this conversation,
as I did in the book, anything that is my opinion,
I will state it as my opinion. And so you
can't you can't take my opinion as scripture or absolute truth.

(29:30):
But we can take scripture as absolute truth. And so
we need to take these opinions compare them to scripture
and then go from that point. So with that said,
I believe that the Tower of Babbel was a extremely
important event and a seminal event over human history that

(29:52):
affects us today in such a way that most Christians
have no concept of. And let's let's kind of start
from the beginning with it, so I don't get confused
or ahead of myself. Here, we know the Bible speaks
of Nimrod and the Tower of Babbel. Now, the Bible
does not say explicitly that Nimrod built the Tower of Babel,

(30:17):
but the implication is certainly there. Now, Josipha said, Nimrod
built the tower, was the building, was the leader of
the of the Tower of Babel. The Book of Jasher
says that there are other legends in other cultures that
speak of all this. But the let's be clear, the
Bible does not say in black and white. And I

(30:39):
don't care if you're reading the Masoretic texts, the set
to a Gent or the Samaritan Pentateuch, or whatever you're reading,
it doesn't matter. It does not say that Nimrod built
the Tower of Babel, but Nimrod the implication is certainly there.
But here's here's what I believe, and I'm going to
go by the set two age timeline. And and that

(31:03):
is a little bit of there's a little bit of
debate that goes on in that, but I am I
am convinced personally that the set Diaget time timeline is
the correct timeline. Here's the here's the thing. Let's I
want to get a little clarification on that. And by
the way, Kyle, I love to be able to do
stuff like this, and I have more than forty five minutes.

Speaker 2 (31:25):
Oh yeah, we can go as long as you are.

Speaker 1 (31:28):
But well, in the conferences, we're limited to forty five,
so we can't go in with this kind of details.

Speaker 2 (31:32):
Yea. And then they start they start kind of.

Speaker 1 (31:35):
Exactly yeah, sometimes sometimes not so politely. Oh but but
but what we what we what we have to understand
is that you you have this situation that occurred, and
you have the set tage a timeline that says one thing,

(31:56):
and you have the Massoretic text, which which is what
we get most of our English translations from, that says
something quite quite different. Because the Tower of Babbel, according
to the sept Tuagent timeline, would have had to have
taken place somewhere between twenty nine hundred and thirty one
hundred BC, So we can put it at, you know,

(32:18):
twenty nine fifty if you want to, if you want
to guestimate it, we can do it there. Now in
the Massoretic text, then you have to put the Tower
of Babbel somewhere around twenty to twenty one hundred BC.
So you've got almost a millennium difference there. And so

(32:39):
the problem is when you start comparing the Massoretic and
the sept Tuagent, you know, you have to understand that
the set Tuigent was the translation that Jesus and his
apostles used. Okay, now they also had Hebrew texts, but

(32:59):
the Greeks t Agent. The world spoke Greek in the
time of Jesus and the Apostles, and so the Greek
scept Tuigent is the main text that they used the
and it was it was composed starting about two fifty BC.
Is called the Septuagent because it was designates seventy seventy

(33:20):
Jewish scholars were called Alexander by one of the Ptolonies
to put out the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible. Now,
the Massoretic text was done by the mass of Rite
scribes after the time of Christ. It wasn't completed really
till about one thousand AD, so you've got about twelve
hundred twelve hundred year difference. Now, older is not always better,

(33:45):
but you have to feel, we have to feel and
understand that the that the text that they used for
the Greek sept Tuagent had to be a lot closer
to the original Hebrew. As a matter of fact, it
may have then the exact text that Ezra and the
scribes compiled there after the Babylonian after the Babylonian captivity.

(34:08):
But you know, in eighty seventy when the when the
Jews the temple was sacked by the Romans, the original
manuscripts that were kept in the temple were taken away
by the Romans. And we don't know where they went
that We don't know if somebody's got them, or if
they were destroyed or what happened. But the original, what
they call the vorlage of the Old Testament, was taken

(34:31):
away by the Romans. And now there were copies made
and they were in the synagogues all around the region,
but the original was lost and so we don't know.
We don't know whether this original was different from what
they came up with the Masoretic, but we kind of

(34:52):
think it was because the mass of Right scribes had
an agenda, and their agenda was to get rid of
Christian Chianity and have no Old Testament references to Jesus Christ.
Fortunately for us with our English Bibles, the translator, the
original English translators realized a lot of this, and they

(35:14):
used a lot of the septuage passages to translate our
English Old Testament, But the timeline in the Book of
Genesis and Genesis ten, in Genesis eleven was not something
that they used because they went straight by the Massoretic timeline.
And basically the theory is is that the scribes changed

(35:37):
the timeline in order to make shim Uh to be
alive during the during the time of Abraham, so that
shim could actually be Melchizedek, because you know, we know
that in the New Testament, in the Book of Hebrews,
we see that Jesus Christ is a high priest after

(35:59):
the order of Melchizedek. And so the the Jewish scribes
and the Jewish folks at the at the at the
gen mina school under a Rabbi Akiva, who put started
putting all this together about one fifty or thereabouts a d.
When they started putting all this together, they had to

(36:20):
make a melchizedek a a a Hebrew basically, and and
they had to give him. I had to give him
authority because because the Psalms talk about a high priest
after the order of Melchizedic, and then we have it

(36:42):
in the Book of Hebrews, a high priest after the
order of Melchizedic. I believe, and many good Bible scholars believe,
that Melchizedic was none other than a pre incarnate appearance
of Jesus Christ. So I said all that. I said
all that to say this. I believe that the Jewish

(37:04):
scribes altered the timeline, and that the timeline we see
in the Greek Sceptu agent. And the problem, and let
me back up. The problem is you've got the set
Tu agent, you've got the Masoretic, and both of them
can't be right. Okay, you can't say that both are right.
So one has to be right and one has to

(37:26):
be mistaken. I believe one was intentionally altered. So let's
go back now, to three thousand. If you say that
the Tower of Babel event occurred somewhere around three thousand BC,
that would put the flood about thirty two hundred BC.
And there are good Bible teachers and good Bible scholars

(37:47):
that say, well, the Tower of Babel couldn't have been
in Babylon as such, because Babylon didn't really appear in
history till about twenty one hundred BC. And that's exactly right.
Our first our first recording of Babylon in secular history
is somewhere around twenty one hundred BC, after Sargon the

(38:09):
Second Sargon the Great. But I believe what they miss
is the fact that when the Tower of Babyl was
built and God stepped in and scattered the nations the
city because the Bible says that Nimrod was they were
building a city and a tower. The city was deserted

(38:31):
and atrophied. It was deserted for a number of years
and came back on the scene under the same name
around twenty one hundred BC. So I personally believe and
this is my personal opinion, okay. So, and there are
a lot of people that are a lot smarter than
I am that disagree with me, But I personally believe

(38:55):
that Nimrod was the first king of Babylon. He became
own in legend in Babylonian legend as Marduk who and
he was later elevated to a god after the time
of Hamarubi. But he was elevated as the first king
of Babylon by Hamarubi, and then later than that he

(39:17):
was worshiped during the time of Nebukanezer as a god.
But I believe that Nimrod was the first king of Babylon.
He built the city right after the flood. They built
the tower, and the tower was destroyed by God somewhere
threey twenty nine fifty twenty nine hundred BC. And I

(39:39):
believe that's how it came down. The city was deserted.
And there there's a scholar that talks about this and says,
you know, the you have what was called what a
seriology is called the Uruk expansion. They said it took
place around three thousand BC, and basically Mesopotamia was evacuated

(40:06):
at that point in time. It is quite an enigma
for anyone that doesn't believe the word of God. But
quite honestly, if you take the Septuagic tomline, and you
look at what happened at the Tower of Babel. Mesopotamia
was evacuated and deserted somewhere around three thousand to twenty

(40:29):
nine hundred BC. Why did that happen because God scattered
the people based on changing of languages. The city of
Babylon itself was deserted, and they rebuilt on its foundations
somewhere I believe it was mentioned again somewhere in some
of the Chaldean writings, maybe around twenty five hundred is

(40:51):
a small village, but it came back to prominence somewhere
around twenty one hundred BC. So you have all of
that going on. But the interesting thing here is in
the passage right before the part that Kyle read in
the book on page seventy six speaks about that, is

(41:13):
that the is that the area was deserted around three
thousand BC. And guess what historical linguistics says that languages
that appeared somewhere in different places on the earth somewhere
around three thousand BC. And so imagine that must be

(41:36):
a coincidence, right, No, it's what happened. It's what happened
at Babble oh, and by the way, let me mention this.
We talk about this and I saw I'm sorry, I
keep going off of rabbit trails. There is so much
to this that people don't understand because they haven't really
dung into it. But do you realize the word that

(41:59):
we see in our in our English Bible for Babylon
and the word that we see from Babel is exactly
the same Hebrew word and it is only translated differently
when the when the Bible talks about the towero of Babble. So,
quite honestly, and from and from the research that I

(42:22):
did and what I put, what I transcribed into the
book is there is no reason why the Tower of
Babel should be called the Tower of Babel and not
the Tower of Babel Babylon. So because it is exactly
the same word that is used for the city of
Babylon in the Hebrew Bible some two hundred times, but

(42:44):
it's the only translated Babel, I believe two or three
times when it refers to the tower of Babbel. So
it is exactly the same word. It was exactly the
same city. And I personally believe that when you study
the history in the time I'm a nebicanzar and he
talks about the Timannankey tower that was the Tower of

(43:07):
Babel or what is more correctly termed the Tower of Babylon.
I don't know, I don't know how far you want
me to go with this, sir.

Speaker 3 (43:15):
Oh, well, it's a good pause point, because I was
actually just looking up the proper name for what you
just said, because I remember reading that in the book
where you had supposed that the into Monaki Tower was
actually the Tower of Babylon. But there are a couple
of things that you said in there that I just
want to highlight. And you did a great job explaining
the difference between the Masoretic and the septuagen and there

(43:36):
is a thousand years difference, give or take. And if
you guys want a copy of the septuogen a PDF
copy that's translated into into English, you can actually find
that if you go over to our Facebook page the
word at War, and you can get on there, and
I have a copy of PDF copy that you can.

Speaker 2 (43:54):
Get your hands on that's been translated.

Speaker 3 (43:56):
Which I would highly, highly highly encourage everybody to do.
Something else that I remember reading in the book, which
was a light bulb moment for me, and I so
appreciated it. Was funny, dude, when I was reading this book,
if you'd been sitting next to me, I'd have been
high five and united stopped because I was like, this
is fantastic. High five, you know, because a lot of
our thinking is is similar. But it just it helped
me kind of realize that I'm not at least there's

(44:18):
too crazy people.

Speaker 2 (44:18):
I guess is exactly, there's at least two of us
on the earth.

Speaker 3 (44:21):
But the one of the things that you had mentioned
that I love to use, especially electronically to study is
the es V. Yes, and I did not know that
the writers of the of the es V, the translators
for the es V, actually used the septuagint to help
bridge the gap between the Masoretic and the step Tuo agent.

(44:44):
They kind of used the sept two agent when it
seemed like the Masoretic had kind of gone off the rails.

Speaker 1 (44:48):
They also kind of the interesting thing is they also
used the Dead Sea scrolls and and that's and that's
really the event. To me, that's the event. Let me
let me say this. I I love the King James Bible.
I think that churches should use the King James as
their basic Bible for teaching and everything. I use it

(45:12):
in my Sunday school class. However, I do believe in
my own personal devotions in my personal Bible reading, because
I'm other than studying, I also read through the Bible.
Probably about every eight or nine months, I'll read through
the entire scripture. I will read through. I'll use my
King James Old Testament one time, the next time I

(45:33):
read the ESV, and then I read the English translation
of sept two of the third time. So I alternate
in those because because of what happened with the massoretic translation. Uh,
the New Testament, that's another story, and I really don't
want to get into that at this juncture because that's
a completely different subject. But the but the but the

(45:57):
but the Old Testament, the Old Testament, mass thereddit there
are there were definitely issues in our English translations because
of what Akiva and his group of scribes did, uh,
you know, around one hundred a d uh. And so
that and that's why I love, you know, I personally

(46:17):
my preference for the Old Testament is of the ESV. Uh.
I enjoy reading the septuagen Uh. And and I still
read my King James, but just you know, every third time.
But but there are there are issues there that were
caused not by the original language. Uh, it was issues

(46:38):
caused by the by the fact that Akiva and his
group made intentional changes to get rid of of references
to Jesus of Nazareth.

Speaker 3 (46:49):
Yeah, which is is you know, obviously a lot of
Christians would hear that, and they would just be a gas.
But if you do any kind of research at all,
you find out pretty fast. And I can provide ample
evidence to show that things have been altered, yes, and
people removed.

Speaker 1 (47:06):
And as I said, there's I think there's some. It's
in the twenties. I don't remember the exact number, but
over twenty times the English translators of the King James Bible,
well let's talk about Tyndale Coverdale, the guys that went
back and did the King James and the Geneva Bible,
the Great Bible, the Bishop's Bible, their early translators. Over

(47:30):
twenty times they changed the Massoretic to agree with the
Greek Septuagent because it because it was an intentional affront
to Jesus as the Messiah and it's over twenty times
that they did that, and so if they were being

(47:50):
good stewards of the original text, so should we. And
here's one of the things, and this is one of
the things that doctor Heizer taught me. If we are
going to say that we believe the word of God,
we need to do everything we can too to find
the truth of what the original tech said and then

(48:14):
live by it, stick to it, and teach it that
way and that and that's why I believe that. And
and I know I would greatly insult some people, and
I'm and I'm sorry for that, but you know I
I love the King James Bible. I stand on the
King James Bible. But we have to understand there were

(48:36):
things intentionally done that it doesn't diminish the inspiration of scripture,
but it's but it's an inhibitor to our understanding of
what was going on. And it's primarily in the and
it's in the Old Testament where I have the problem,
not in the New Testament. I'll let me just put

(48:57):
it that way.

Speaker 3 (48:58):
No, I agree with you one hundred and again. If
you get into your word and you study at all,
you're going to see the same thing I promise you
that you will well the other things that you had mentioned,
And I just wrote a note down because I think
it's really important to state this, you know, for anybody
that's maybe on the fence doesn't even know Jesus, doesn't
know if they believe in God, doesn't know if they
believe in the Bible. I just want to tell you,
and it's becoming more true every single day that a

(49:22):
lot of archaeologists use the Bible as a historical text,
as a historical document to find and have found places
that are reference that are of antiquity as part of
the Babylonian Empire, and which I believe that it says
very clearly in the Bible that Nimrod was responsible for,

(49:47):
you know, the creation of Nineveh. We have found Ninevah.
You know, we know where it is. We have started
to excavate the area that was the original palace grounds
in and this has played out more times than I
can tell you about. So the Bible is a historical document,

(50:08):
It has historical record, and I find it hilarious too.
I was talking with some friends last night about how
science fights so doggedly to try to disprove the existence
of God. And disprove the existence of the Bible. But
even their own scientific findings, more so now than ever,

(50:28):
reveal ancient knowledge that is written down for us that
we didn't understand that now make perfect sense. And one
of the things that I love to highlight is the
twenty nineteen finding of the vast ocean of water that
exists below the earth crusts that they have found. Here
we were dogmatically taught in school, there's a mantle, there's

(50:51):
a crust, there's a there's a core. You know, it's
this thick, no doubt about it. We've got it all
figured out. Oh what we missed? This huge, vast ocean
of water that has more water than can be contained
on the surface of the earth many times over. So
when we read in Genesis that the you know, great
depths of the of the Earth broke forth to help
cause the flood, now that makes perfect sense. But I digress.

(51:14):
We'll get back on track. But I just highlight that
because it's we know these things are real, because we
can find them in the world.

Speaker 1 (51:23):
So in my new book that I am working on,
uh we're uh, I actually uh do put in there
a quote by Chuck Missler, and I can't remember it exactly,
but paraphrasing, he said, you know, scientists are so determined
to prove there is no God, but if they would
base their findings on the fact that there is a

(51:46):
God and is a creator, things would start falling into place.

Speaker 2 (51:51):
It would really quickly, And just like just like.

Speaker 1 (51:53):
Our thing with the uh with the Rook expansion, it's there,
it's in the bibble, and but the sereologists can't figure
it out because they don't believe the bibble is the
word of God, and they don't believe it's a bunch
of fables and so forth. And so if they just
read the bibble and use that, they could establish their

(52:14):
theory as fact instead of a theory.

Speaker 3 (52:17):
That's right, amen, brother. One of the things that going
back to Babylon again, one of the things I wanted
to ask you about that I found so fascinating, and
this is maybe a little bit of a scient tangent,
but I think it could be interesting, is you had proposed,
potentially that the original location of Babylon and the plane
of Shinear might be in a different location than what

(52:39):
we think of today.

Speaker 2 (52:40):
So would you please expound.

Speaker 1 (52:42):
On that that's a theory that was put forth by
I believe the gentleman's name is Kenneth Griffith. He is
a researcher. You can find him on Academia edu if
you're familiar with that. He said, there is a plane.
There is a plane to the west of a Babylon.

(53:03):
It's called the plane of cn R c I N
E R n Ar instead of s H I N
A R. And as we know, there are linguistical differences
because when you for just to give you a current example,
you know, the German city of Munich, if you look
on a German map, it is mentioned in you in

(53:24):
c H g In and not Munich. It's just it's uh.
It's when the language changes, the name changes. Uh. And
he believes that we should be looking there and the
reason for that, but I but I don't, but I
do not. I don't think I agree with him. And
I'll tell you why. The reason for that, and it's

(53:45):
is scriptural. Uh. And he said that you know, the
Bible says that the people when they left Ararat journeyed
from the east. Okay, Well, the plane of Shinar, where Babylon,
ancient Babylon is located, is actually southeast of Ararat. If

(54:05):
you draw a line, it's almost directly south, it's a
little bit southeast. And so if they journeyed from the east,
they couldn't have gone southeast. Now, I've read Bible teachers
that say, oh, well, that's just that just means they
journeyed to the east, and so from the east. I
looked at the original language. It says from it says
from the east, and so that that's a problem. And

(54:28):
so he believed, he said, here's this possible solution. Here's
the and there are a lot of tales there where
ancient where ancient cities and such are are buried there,
you know, the mounds that come up as tales, uh,
with the with the burial of these ancient cities. And
he's and he said, here are the possibilities where the

(54:48):
Tower of Babyl may have been. But I believe that
Gerard Garteau, who is another scholar that that I read
on Academia e Edu, has a better answer to that,
to that uh, that quandary. He believes that that that
the people journeyed from Ararat to the west, encountered the

(55:12):
headwaters of the Euphrates River and followed the river south
and east to the plain of Shinar. So they did
actually journey from the east. They went to the west,
encountered the Euphrates, and followed the Euphrates down to where
they wanted to settle Uh. And I believe that's to me,
that's a better possibility than than Sinar. But but I

(55:36):
believe that Senar certainly is a possibility. I believe that
it's enough of a possibility. I believe that it was
enough of possibility to put it in the book because
I find it very interesting because we you know, we
have to understand again that if we're going to claim
the Bible is the inspired word of God and the
original language, to the best of our knowledge, says they

(55:59):
traveled from the east to the west. Folks, they went west,
and they either ended up turning back to the east
or that plane of Senor may actually be the place.
But I honestly believe when you get into when you
get into the Neo Babylonian Empire and the writings that

(56:20):
we have found from Nebuknezar and the Kaldean culture and
all of that, and when you get into the stories
of the building of the tower, how Mardu I incorporated
the help of the Anonaki to mold bricks, and I
believe the number was a one hundred and thirty six
million bricks to build that tower as it is described

(56:43):
in the Bible. That's incredible. I mean, to me, that's
just incredible light bulb type moments that are hidden in
this book. It's not my work, but I found I
found from other scholars, and that was actually written in
the Numa Leish, which is the Babylonian creation myth. So
it's a myth, but it really it's really fascinating when

(57:08):
you read it in light of what we know is
the truth and the word of God.

Speaker 3 (57:13):
Well, if you guys are enjoying this conversation and would
like to get a copy of Max's book, Cosmic Conflict,
or head over to the website The Word at warmedia
dot com and click on guests. There you can find
a tab specifically format with all of his information on there,
and you can actually get a affiliate linked copy as
well that will take you to Amazon to pick up
a copy of his book.

Speaker 2 (57:34):
So go ahead and do that right now.

Speaker 3 (57:36):
I cannot encourage you highly enough to get your hands
on his book, Cosmic Conflict. So as we continue back
with the conversation. One of the things that I wanted
to kind of get into is, you know, we have
this dispersement. We've kind of already talked about it with
the Yuruk expansion. We can see this after Babylon, and
for the most part, Babylon struggles for a little while

(57:59):
and then it just kind of dwindles and then is
rekindled by Nebukinezer that we can.

Speaker 2 (58:03):
Read about in the Bible.

Speaker 3 (58:05):
And then you know, things are going along for quite
a while there, and we have this conflict that starts
to get set up between the Assyrian Empire and Babylonia
and you know, Jerusalem and the Israelites, and just highlight
some of the high points of that for us, if
you would, because it's really in this conflict that we

(58:26):
can see this struggle that continues on over Jerusalem.

Speaker 2 (58:31):
Right.

Speaker 3 (58:31):
It's so huge because from the minute Jerusalem was basically
established and founded until today, there is this it's like,
you know, the piece of taffy in the pullar that
Satan wants to get his hands on and use the
enemies to do that of God, and it's God's sacred
territory right built on God's sacred mountains. So just highlight
some of that, if you would, and we'll kind of

(58:52):
take us up to that seventy eight d mark.

Speaker 1 (58:54):
Okay, yeah, yeah. As a matter of fact, I was
going to say, just mentioned we have to go back
really to the history of Jerusalem to get to that point,
because we find, you know, we find, and we're starting
the book all the way back to the Garden of Eden.
Now again, folks, this is my opinion. Now I did

(59:15):
get this from some scholars, and I can't recall their
names that is in the book, but I believe that
the Garden of Eden was located on Mount Zion, where
Jerusalem stands today. Now here's why I believe that, because
we read in the Book of Zihel, chapter twenty four,
in one of those famous Satanic passages about Satan, where

(59:40):
God said you were on my holy mountain. So the
Garden Eden was actually built on a mountain. And we
and this is the start of what we call mountain
theology that runs not only throughout the Old Testament, but
throughout the entire Bible. And we talk about mountain theology
in chapter one is kind of a baseline of what

(01:00:01):
we're going to be discussing. But this, This runs through
the whole through the whole Bible of how the mountains
were where the gods lived. Uh, and the gods lived
on the mountains, the people lived in the valleys. That
was just that was the that was part of their cosmology.
It was a three kied cosmology. And gods, you know,

(01:00:23):
the gods that were on the earth and lived on
the mountains. By the same token, God had his holy mountain.
And that holy mountain is Mountain Zion, where Jerusalem is located.
Now we start with the discussion of the Garden of Eden,
and it talks about these four rivers that flowed out
from a river in Eden, and so it was the

(01:00:46):
geehind the peace on the ka How do you how
would pronounce it h I D D E K E
L I believe? And the and the Euphrates. Well, most
scholars look at this and say, oh, well, we know
the Euphrates is so that means and the the hid
Deco is probably the pre flood name of the Tigris.

(01:01:08):
So the Garden of Eden must be marked with an
X somewhere there at at the mouth of the Persian
Gulf or maybe under the waters of where the Persian
Gulf is today, that's where the Garden of Eden.

Speaker 3 (01:01:21):
Well effectively just geographically for everyone modern day like Kuwait area.

Speaker 1 (01:01:25):
Yeah, that that area and and you know in you know,
and so X marks the spot right there. Well, in
the words of the world's most famous famous archaeologists, Indiana Jones,
X never marks the spot. So so so we have
to so so, but we have to look at scripture

(01:01:45):
and say, okay, and a lot of Bible scholars agree
that it's somewhere was somewhere around the mouth of the
Euphrates and the uh and the Tigris rivers. But how
about the Gihan and the Peace on what about what
about those are Here's what I believe. Number one, this
the Gihan is very interesting because what is the name

(01:02:07):
of the spring that bubbles up under under Mount Zion today,
the Gihan Spring. It's the same name. So let's go
back to pre flood, to the pre flood time, and
if the Gihan was a massive river flowing off of
a mountain and flowing to the north and to the south,

(01:02:32):
then you can have these four rivers flowing out of
the area of Jerusalem. Well, actually the location of Jerusalem
today because the Gihan said it went south into Ethiopia,
and the Peason went into Halof where there was gold. Well,

(01:02:52):
those areas are Africa, Eastern Africa, and the and the
around the bottom of the Arabian Peninsula. So if this
river flowed up as an as a massive water spring
up from the Mountain of God, the Holy Mountain of God,

(01:03:12):
it could have flowed north and south from the high
ground there off the Mountain of God and and followed
and followed the lines to become those four rivers. And
there is a system of rifts Uh that are that
it's in the trust of the earth that if you
follow the Great Rift system you find it goes into

(01:03:35):
Ethiopia and around in the Uh into the Persian Gulf,
and not the Persian Gulf but the UH, but into
the ocean there around the Arabian Peninsula. So the rivers
could the river behind could have flowed north and south,
branching in those two rivers, following that rift system. Because
that rift system, the Great rift system, goes up the

(01:03:57):
Jordan Valley and goes north from there. And then there
are other fault lines that would separate the Tigris and Euphrates,
which would be the hideco and the Euphrates River. And
so you have the proof that the Garden of Eden
was actually on the holy Mountain of God, which is

(01:04:19):
Mountain Zion, and that has been God's holy mountain all along.
I believe the fact that Jesus Christ came in his
pre incarnate form and appeared as Melchizedek. And where was
he He was in the city of Salem. That's where
Abraham encountered him. That was the ancient name for Jerusalem,

(01:04:42):
and he was the priest king of Salem. What would
he had been doing there? He was planning God's flag
after the flood, as this being my holy mountain, the
same holy mountain that God had before the flood when
the Garden of Ene was on top of it. It
was probably a lot higher before the flood, but it

(01:05:05):
was the same place where God had his holy mountain
before the flood. Jesus came and said, this is my
holy mountain, and why would he do that? He would
do that so David would know where to establish the
capital of Israel on God's holy mountain, where Solomon would

(01:05:27):
then build the temple, which, although it isn't mountain, miriahs
really the same mountain. It's just a little rift between
the two of them. So you have so you have
Melchizedek coming to claim that piece of ground as sacred
space or sacred geography, or even a cosmic mountain where

(01:05:48):
God would meet with men. And so you have the
mountain theology established as God's holy mountain. They're in Jerusalem
and going from there. So that's why we have Jerusalem
located there and owned God's holy mountain. And guess what
we read Psalm sixty eight and we find out that

(01:06:11):
Satan wants God's holy mountain. Satan has a holy mountain too.
He has a lot of holy mountains, the mountains of
the gods. But the most dominant Satanic mountain, if we
want to use that terminology, borders on the northern region
of Mashon and what today we call the Goland Golan Heights,

(01:06:33):
and that is Mount Hermon. Mount Hermon is the place
where the watchers descending in Genesis chapter six. Mount Hermon
is where archaeologists have found all kinds of evidence of
cultic worship patterns there on Mount Hermon. Mount Hermon was
the holy mountain of the Canaanite god l Mount Hermon

(01:06:56):
was the place that Gilgamesh went to went and defeated
the evil god whom Baba? Is that right? I keep
forgetting that now I believe that's correct. But where Gilgamesh
went and defeated that that god, Mount Hermon is at
the north of Bashon, which is the land of the

(01:07:18):
serpent Uh. And of course we know when Moses is
the children of Israel. It's so interesting when you start
just looking at a map that Moses and the children
of Israel came out of the wilderness. When when God
finally released them from their years of wondering, did they
come right across the Jordan River into the promised land. No,

(01:07:40):
they went up into Bashon and way north, over one
hundred miles north, to defeat og who was the last
of the Refayeen that lived in Bashon. And we get
into the whole Refayeen thing as well, but we will
not get there right now. But but but God sent

(01:08:02):
Moses and the children of Israel to defeat those wicked
entities that were controlling that area, which is very very
much of an area of wickedness. And anytime you see
the word Bashan in your Old Testament, you better underline it.
Take note of it because there's wickedness. There's a much

(01:08:25):
more to it than just a single just mentioning in
a geographical area. So Moses went up to Bashon to
conquer that, and that was right at the base of
Mount Hermon, which was the main mountain of the pagan gods,
closest to the children of Israel there in Israel. So

(01:08:46):
you have all this mountain theology enter and into it. Now,
in Babylon, they had a real problem because if the
if the gods lived on mountains on the plain of China,
are guess what that was all flatland. There were no mountains,

(01:09:07):
so they had to build their own sacred mountain. And
that's what the Tower of Babylon and all these other towers.
There are over twenty five cigarettes that archaeologists have found
in Iran and Iraq, in that area of Shinar between
the Tigris and Frate's River, they're over twenty five cigarettes.
What were those things built for? They weren't just built

(01:09:29):
as temples. They were built as holy mountains, the mountains
of the gods. Because the gods didn't have their own mountain.
This was see, this was all established at Eden when
God had his holy mountain Satan had to replicate and
duplicate or come up with a with a cheap imitation

(01:09:52):
of the real thing. Let's put it that way, of
anything that God did. We see that all throughout scripture
that Satan kind of tries to replicate or duplicate what
God does, uh, and come at it from the dark
side rather than the side of righteousness. And so the
Tower of Babel or the Tower of Babylon and all
of these other cigarettes they found in that area are

(01:10:16):
nothing but holy mountains built as artificial mountains and homes
of the Gods. And so that's what we've got. We've
got the spiritual, We've got cosmic spiritual warfare going on
between God and the forces of evil all over the place.
But yet we've seen in our modern church not to

(01:10:38):
have time to even start paying attention to what was
going on. And we miss so much of the good
stuff that goes on in the Bible because we don't
take the time to be good stewards of the work.
I don't know where do we start that conversation.

Speaker 3 (01:10:56):
Kyle, If you're good, it's just talking about this again.
It comes back to the words you use for the
title of the book. This cosmic conflict that is occurring,
and by this particular point, you know, you kind of
have almost in some ways, the the the satellite home
front for evil becomes Babylon, right, you know, and Jerusalem

(01:11:19):
has always been the home front for God, you know,
because God is consistent. But one of the things is
I was reading your book that I found, in kind
of tying into what you just said, was how God
works is so amazing, and there are when you understand
the depth and complexity of the story at a much
deeper level, like you just said, it just it riches

(01:11:39):
God's words so much for you and helps you unlock
more and more and more of the Bible so that
when you read things, you understand what's really happening on
a much, much deeper level. And one of the things
for me that kind of was unlocked reading the book
was how ultimately you know, here you have Abraham who

(01:12:00):
leaves this wickedness that is the whole land of Shinar, Babylonia,
the Chaldeans, you know, all of this is the same stuff,
right th worshiping the God seen. He leaves all of
this stuff and turns towards God, and God says, I'm
going You're going to be my portion. You guys, through
you I am going to take aside when the divisions

(01:12:23):
of these nations are set up the seventy, I'm going
to take you, and you're going to be my people,
and through you will be my line.

Speaker 1 (01:12:30):
That's that is so that's so that I'm sorry to
interrupt you, but that is so critical that we understand
that the dispersion of Babel or Babylon uh the when
the languages were changed. And this again I owe this
to daughter Heiser, because this is something I never saw before.
But in the in the es V and in the Septuage,

(01:12:51):
and we see that that God separated the nations according
to the number of the sons of God. God, he
set these sons of God over these nations. But the
real critical part is when God said, but Israel will
be my inheritance. And we have to understand that we

(01:13:15):
have this big, wide, beautiful world that has been turned
over by God to Satan's emissaries. But there is one
little patch of ground that is about less than the
size of New Jersey that has been set aside for
God's inheritance. But guess what. In Psalm eighty two, it says,

(01:13:41):
Rise up, o God, for you will inherit all nations.
But right now we are still living in a time
where every nation spiritually is overlorded by an angel that
chose to let themselves be worshiped. I don't know. I

(01:14:04):
don't know what that goddess is on top of the
Capitol building. Whether it's Are the Most, whether it's Athena,
whether it's whether it's whether it's Ishtar, I don't know.
But we have to remember, folks that, yes, we are
very privileged in the United States of America because we

(01:14:26):
had people in the beginning of this nation that had
a Judeo Christian worldview, and there were men like Roger
Williams and others that established Christianity in this nation. But
we have to remember we are not Jews, we are

(01:14:46):
not Israel. This is not God's chosen land. Israel is
God's inheritance right now, and we need to stand with
the Jewish people because that is God's inheritance in this
age and in time when the millennium comes, Jesus will

(01:15:09):
inherit the United States of America. Jesus will inherit all
the nations of the world. But right now, Israel is
God's inheritance, and we as Christians need to stand with
the nation of Israel.

Speaker 2 (01:15:23):
Yeah. Amen.

Speaker 3 (01:15:24):
That was one of the things too that was really
good for me because it's easy to get swept up
into the geopolitical nature of today, and I know we're
kind of leading up to that, and we'll get more
into the common modern day ties here in a second,
but it's really important to understand from a scriptural and
basic perspective of these this is God's turf, this is

(01:15:44):
God's chosen people, this is God's sacred space, and at
the end of the day, no one is going to
have final dominion over it but God and Jesus Christ. Period,
end of story, end of games. You know, I just
found it funny, you know, I started to say a
second ago, how not funny, But how God works, you

(01:16:07):
know here if you look at the history of his
people and their hard heartedness, you know, and their stiff nakedness,
and they just would not you know, turn to Him
and stay focused on him. How you know, first the
northern kingdoms, you know, get taken away by by the Assyrians,
and then the southern kingdoms go wicked. And who does

(01:16:29):
God use to come in It's like it's like God
finally said, you know what, your ancestor, I decided to
you know, have as my own and form all of
you guys from him who left Babylon. But you guys
just seem, for lack of a better term, hell bound
to go right back there. And so I'm gonna go
ahead and give you right back to the very place

(01:16:51):
that you guys originally fleed from. Have fun, right, And
so then they go into the Babylonian exile, and then
we kind of have everything that's from that after that
that period where you know, we have Cyrus the Great
comes onto the scene, and I believe it was actually
Cyrus that actually freed them, if do I have that right?

Speaker 1 (01:17:11):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (01:17:12):
Yeah, And so they they are allowed to go back,
and so they begin anew you know, they basically take
care of cleaning up the mess that they'd made. You know,
things get back on track, and we pretty much for
the most part, come out of the last bit of
the Old Testament with you know, we had the Assyrians

(01:17:32):
that were the power, then the Babylonians were the power,
and then the Meads and the Persians were the power,
and then the one that we don't see that gets
missed in between the Old Testament and the New Testament
are the Greeks. And that's really important because we need
to understand some of the history there. Well, we'll skip
over that for this discussion, but I just say that

(01:17:53):
to highlight there is a gap in between the Old
Testament and the New Testament of about four hundred years.
And by the time we come onto the scene in
the New Testament and we get into the story of Christ,
the Romans are now the power of the day. Yes,
and Rome has effectively kicked the Greeks out. That's why
you see the Romans are everywhere in the New Testament.

(01:18:15):
And you know Jesus prophesies about the seventy a D
event when Jerusalem would be destroyed and which was done
by the Romans. So that is another seminal moment for
the history of the Israelites and where we kind of

(01:18:35):
have a launch.

Speaker 2 (01:18:37):
Point of a long period of time.

Speaker 3 (01:18:42):
So just kind of highlight, if you would, and you
get into this beautifully in the book. You know, we
have the seventy a D. We have Titus wipe everything out,
and then we go a long time and just share
some of that history of what happened in there that
kind of led up to the founding and forty eight
of the state of Israel.

Speaker 1 (01:18:57):
That's a good point. You know, most most Christians have
a pretty good idea of the history of Israel up
to seventy a d. But after that it just drops
off the table. And that and that's that's one of
the big problems, because what what came to pass was
probably as big as the seventy eight event was the

(01:19:20):
Barcopper Revolt in one thirty five, because when that when
that was defeated by the Romans, uh Emperor Hadrian said,
I've had the Jews are nothing but troublemakers. I've had
enough of these people. I'm done with them. So they
plowed the city of Jerusalem under It was just plowed
to bare ground. They kicked all the Jews out of Jerusalem.

(01:19:44):
They were not allowed in the city period. There were
still a lot of Jews living in the area. A
lot of them have been slaughtered, but there were still
living there. They kicked them all out of the city,
and he renamed Jerusalem Aleiah capitalina U and also named
the region Palestine. So that's where the name of the

(01:20:06):
Palestinians come from. And it was, and the reason he
named it Palestine, it was actually named after the Philistines
to get rid of the Jewishness of the area. So
that's what's really interesting. People don't realize there is no
such thing as a Palestinian people. There is no Palestinian heritage.
There was no one called the Palestinian until the Yasser

(01:20:29):
Arafat called them Palestinians in the nineteen sixties. So that's
where the name Palestine came from. It was done by Hadrian.
He kicked all the Jews out of Jerusalem and there
were no Jews allowed back into Jerusalem til the Muslims

(01:20:49):
conquered Jerusalem in somewhere around six hundred eighty, so for
there was four hundred and fifty five hundred years there
there were no Jews allowed in Jerusalem. And it is
so ironic by today's culture that it was the Muslims
that let them back in. So but it was, you know,
it was a money thing because the Jews were good

(01:21:12):
merchants and so the Muslims were traders, they were they
were merchants, and so so they let them back in.
And so the so Islam or the Muslims pretty much
controlled the area all the way through the Ottoman Empire.

Speaker 3 (01:21:26):
UH.

Speaker 1 (01:21:26):
You know when in World War One, UH, the Ottoman
Empire chose the wrong side. They sided with Germany. And
of course it was the age of British imperialism and
British colonialism and all of that good stuff. And the
British ended up in charge of the UH, in charge
of Palestine UH after war after World War one, UH.

(01:21:48):
And there were there were highlights there where balle for
the Balfour Declaration and all of those things, you know,
and the and the and and wanting to give the
land back to the Jews. But the real interesting thing
that most people don't understand. And there's a book that
I highly highly recommend by a lady by the name
Joan Peters. And actually remember the title is and the

(01:22:12):
name of it is from Time Immemorial. UH. And it's
about just this thick uh. And it's like a textbook.
But it is so interesting because Joan Peters, and I
believe she was New York Times, but she was a
reporter for one of the major newspapers, and she set
out to prove that the Jews did not belong in

(01:22:34):
the in the Promised Land, that it wasn't the promised land,
that the land belonged to the Palestinians. Uh, and the
Jews should just leave uh and uh. And by the
time she finished her research, she had done a complete
one eighty and wrote a book on why the Jews
should have control of the area that is called Palestine. Uh.

(01:22:58):
And she detailed it so well and so so thoroughly,
but in a nutshell. The Jews started to feel the
call to come back into their land in the nineteenth
century and Jews started immigrating into the region of Palestine.

(01:23:19):
Nobody the area that is today Israel. Nobody wanted it.
It was a waste land in southern Syria, in the
southern part of the in the Ottoman Empire. For years
and years it was, you know, Mark Twain wrote about
what a what a disaster, and how the land was
absolutely good for nothing and people shouldn't even worry about

(01:23:40):
it because it was nothing but waste and desert. And
the Jews started moving in and made the desert bloom
and they and they made it this great land and
they started all these businesses in the in the nineteenth century.
And the people that are today call the Palestinians their

(01:24:02):
ancestors moved from other Arab countries, whether it was in Transjordan, Egypt,
Saudi Arabia, or Syria. They all moved into the land
why to work for the Jews, because the Jews were
paying more money than they could make anywhere else. And

(01:24:22):
so those people that moved into to the region of
Palestine in the nineteenth century, and the Arab population boomed,
because it's just like here in the South, you know,
the slave population boom in the South, we have so
many African Americans, had so many African Americans in the

(01:24:44):
South because they were the descendants of the slaves that
were brought in. It was the same situation in Palestine.
The population of the area boomed in Arabs, not so
much in Jews, because the Jews were the masters and
the Arabs were the workers, and so they needed the workers,
and that's why you had such a big Arab population

(01:25:06):
and so and so that's what happened. There was a
big Arab population moved in to work for the Jews,
and that's and that's what happened. But then when you
come into the twentieth century and they and there is
this this idea of a Jewish homeland all of a sudden,

(01:25:27):
the Arabs start getting pretty testy about it. That's that's
a vast understatement.

Speaker 2 (01:25:34):
And they they're still a little testy about it.

Speaker 1 (01:25:39):
Yeah, they're still a little testy about it. So they
so so they started rebelling against their Jewish overlords because
they did not want a Jewish state. And of course
then there was the Mandate for Palestine by the British,
and they gave this whole area that included not only

(01:26:00):
modern day Israel, but modern day Jordan, and that was
set aside for the Jewish homeland. But then in nineteen
twenty two they divided that up and everything east of
the Jordan River was given to the Hashemike Kingdom of
Jordan for a guess what a Palestinian state, what we
would call the Palestinian State, but at the time, a

(01:26:22):
separate homeland for the Arabs that didn't want to live
under the Jews. But none of them moved over there.
They all wanted to stay in Israel because they had
good jobs, they had good things going on for them there,
but they still did not want the Jews getting their
own nation. And of course this went on back and

(01:26:44):
forth throughout the nineteen twenties and the nineteen thirties, there
were Arab riots against against the mandate for Palestine, and
there were a gorilla There was guerrilla warfare going on.
There were constant attacks of the Jewish population by the
Arabs because they did not want the land turned over

(01:27:08):
to Israel for a nation. And of course, then nineteen
forty eight came along. And I'll tell you the thing
about nineteen forty eight as an American citizen, that gives
me such pride that we had one president that actually

(01:27:30):
stood for the word of God. When the Jewish, when
the Jewish people declared their state, I believe on May
fourteenth or May fifteenth, nineteen forty eight, no one, no
international entity recognized the state of Israel. They were waiting
to see what the United States of America would do.

(01:27:52):
And you had this little thing called the discovery of
oil in Arabia along that period of time. And the
President of the United States at the town was Harry Truman. Now,
Harry Truman had a lot of problems. He had a
lot of things that you and I would disagree with
that he did, and his policies and so forth and

(01:28:14):
so on. But Harry Truman was I think he became
a Presbyterian, but he grew up a Southern Baptist, and
he was a man that knew what the Bible said
about Israel being in their land in the last time.
And all of his advisers advised him, do not recognize

(01:28:38):
the state of Israel. Do not do it, because the
excuse was if you do that, they're going to be annihilated.
Within a day or two. The Arabs will go in
and they'll annihilate them. You can't do this, you'll kill
them all. But that was not the reason. The reason
was because these people, these advisors, wanted Arab oil and

(01:28:59):
they did not want to upset the Arabs in the region,
so they were heavily advising Truman not to recognize the
state of Israel. Harry Truman went into his office by
himself and rode out the acceptance of Israel as a state,
all on his own, against the advice of his advisers,

(01:29:25):
and put and brought it out without telling anybody what
he was going to do. And here was a man
that was in the in the White House that before
it that there would not be a man with that
kind of guts until Donald Trump came along. That we
had no Ronald Reagan included, there was no president in

(01:29:46):
the United in the in the Oval Office from the
time of Harry Truman that would have had the guts
to do what he did to recognize the state of it,
to recognize the state of Israel. Israel was recognized as
a state officially, and others and other nations then fell
in line behind the United States. The Arabs surrounding Israel

(01:30:07):
all immediately the Arab League declared war on Israel, and
of course Israel offered citizenship to all the people living there,
including the so called Palestinians. The Arabs who lived in
Israel were offered full citizenship in the new nation. But

(01:30:28):
the Arab League advised them, don't do that. Leave go
to this, Go flee across the Jordan River. Get out
of there, because we're going to wipe this nation off
the face of the earth. And guess what you will
not only be given your land and your home you have,

(01:30:50):
now you'll get what the Jews have got to. And
of course the Jews were you know, the Jews were wealthy.
They had the wealth of the land, a lot of them. Now,
there were some that were living in Paul, but for
the most part, they were the ones that were running things.
And so the idea was, hey, you guys, go over here,
let's let's start this refugee camp and you just wait

(01:31:12):
there a few days, because we're going to wipe them
off the face of the earth and you'll get everything.
It'll all be yours. And so they taught them. They
talked the majority of the Palestinians into leaving the area
becoming refugees. And that's how we got Palestinian refugees because

(01:31:32):
they they listened to the Arab League instead of accepting
Israel's offer, which was an offer for full citizenship. And
that is again thus the first time they missed an
opportunity to you know, to have an opportunity to do
what was the right thing and have have peace in

(01:31:53):
the in the region. But they but they left and
they became they went into the refugee camps and and
Jordan didn't want them, Egypt didn't wart them, nobody wanted them,
but they but they went there. Now they went into
the what is called the West Bank and Gaza. Because
when the when the Arabs all attacked Israel, that was

(01:32:17):
the that was the battle front, that was the front
line became the West Bank, and that territory was seated
to Jordan and the area which we know today is Gaza,
and all the things that's going on there came from
the fact that the Egyptian armies had that penetration into
the area, and those two places became places for Palestinian

(01:32:38):
the Palestinian refugees to take up residents there. In nineteen
forty eight when all of that happened, the rest of
the land was controlled by Israel. When the when when
the attacking nations pulled back and and and quote peace
was declared in the originally nineteen forty eight.

Speaker 3 (01:33:01):
Yeah, and and they were they were a state for
how many days before like they were attacked by how many?
It was like every nation around them.

Speaker 1 (01:33:09):
One it was ours, Yeah, it was ours, right, it
was ours.

Speaker 2 (01:33:14):
Russia. Russia was also a portion a part of that.

Speaker 1 (01:33:18):
Yeah, they were supporting them, they were they were supporting
and again it's all about the oil. Yeah, and that's
what was going on. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:33:28):
And obviously God, you know, held them together because this
is prophecy that's being fulfilled and God's not going to
have anybody trample prophecy. So God protects them divinely and
they they exist today, that's right.

Speaker 1 (01:33:41):
But it's you know, and how many and one thing
you mentioned, how many Christians in the United States will say, oh, well,
the nation of Israel is no fulfillment of prophecy because
they aren't worshiping God blah blah blah blah blah, therefore
we shouldn't support them. They all they have to do
is read about the miracles that took place in nineteen

(01:34:01):
forty eight and nineteen sixty seven, in nineteen seventy three,
are you read about the miracles God? This is the
hand of God and it's establishing a land for his
people as problemost in.

Speaker 2 (01:34:14):
His word, Yeah, and securing Jerusalem exactly mine mine, and
it's not anybody else's, that's mine.

Speaker 1 (01:34:21):
That's right.

Speaker 2 (01:34:22):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:34:22):
So it's it's very a very you know, kind of
interesting moment as you look through history and you know,
I can't think of another people group on this earth
that have literally been surrounded by everyone who wants to
kill them since their inception and since the beginning of
time like Israel has.

Speaker 2 (01:34:42):
I can't think of anyone.

Speaker 1 (01:34:43):
There's not one.

Speaker 2 (01:34:44):
There isn't there's just nobody, and.

Speaker 1 (01:34:46):
There's not and there's not no nation on earth that
disappeared for almost two thousand years and.

Speaker 2 (01:34:51):
Came back, right, Yeah, that doesn't happen.

Speaker 3 (01:34:53):
Bad doesn't typically have your day in the sun, and
then you just faded into the history books exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:34:59):
Yeah, and that's very much.

Speaker 3 (01:35:01):
You know, one of the things that I think we're
in danger of is a country if we don't watch ourselves.
I think God has been very clear about throwing some
pretty clear warning symbols out that we better, we better
straighten up or else. I'm actually going to be doing
a sermon on here in a few days. We're kind
of going through the minor prophets and I'm going to
be doing a sermon at the church on Jonah. And

(01:35:22):
there's some things that tie into that story on the
warnings that have been given to America and even through
Christ that are are very apropos But I digress.

Speaker 1 (01:35:31):
Well, well, well we can we can put one thing
into conent taste of what we're talking about. The Abrahamic
Covenant was number one, it wasn't conditional, and number two,
it wasn't temporary. God said. God said to Abraham, I
will bless them, to bless thee curse them that curse
the invintional, all the nations of the earth be blessed.

(01:35:52):
I was very concerned under the presidencies of Joe Biden
and Barack Obama, something terrible was going to happen to
this country because that Abrahamic covenant. God wasn't kidding, God
wasn't fooling around, and we had lead, We had leadership
at that point in time that was absolutely anti Israel

(01:36:16):
U and we and we were treading on fen ice
during those administrations. And that is the to me, that
is the main thing. You know, we are all sinners,
and our nation is, oh my goodness, corrupt in so
many areas. But that is the one thing that is

(01:36:37):
long as the United States stands with Israel, I believe
that is going to be our salvation and our sustaining force.
As long as that happens. But if anti Semitism goes
rampant and takes over, watch out, because God's judgment is
coming soon.

Speaker 2 (01:36:58):
Amen, brother Amen.

Speaker 3 (01:37:00):
Well, if you guys are enjoying this conversation, we'd like
to get a copy of Cosmic Conflict Babylon versus Jerusalem.
Head over to our website, The Word at warmedia dot com.
Or you can actually click the link on your screen
and get your copy of Cosmic Conflict today. So one
of the things that we see through this everything that
you just described, with the lack of a better term,

(01:37:23):
disbursement of the Palestinians, if you will, or what they
want to deem is the Palestinians kind of leads us
to another interesting point. Through all of this becomes militancy. Right,
we have all of these militant organizations that are beginning
to be birthed through this process. And correct me if
I'm wrong here, but it seems like historically time wise,

(01:37:46):
the PLO seems to be the first one that kind
of comes onto the scene and really declares, you know,
the term the Palestinian people is that?

Speaker 2 (01:37:55):
Is that an air?

Speaker 1 (01:37:56):
Yes, Sir, I believe I believe that it was Jasser
Arafat who first use that term.

Speaker 2 (01:38:01):
Yeah, you had said that earlier.

Speaker 1 (01:38:03):
Yeah, and there's and see when you when you learned
what is in the book and what we've been talking
about today, there's no such thing as a Palestinian people.
They're they are all Arabs that immigrated from other Arab
countries and they're you know, now, there there may be
a few that were indigenous, but they were still Arabs.
They were Syrians, uh, their their ancestors were. They were not.

(01:38:27):
There's no such thing as a Palestinian, has not been
and it was the term that was coined in the sixties.

Speaker 3 (01:38:34):
Yeah, the name Palestine, obviously, like we talked about earlier,
kind of goes back to the Roman times. Yes, but yeah, yeah,
So it's funny because there's a great interview and you
might can go look it up on YouTube. There's a
great interview with Gilda may Air, who was one of
the early prime ministers obviously of Israel, and she even
says because she was her family was from that area,

(01:38:56):
had never really moved away and believed she was there
all the time, and she said, there's no such thing.
It's like everyone in this area was just this was
what the area was known at. As a matter of fact,
her ID card that she carried for years actually just
had the name Palestine on it because that was what
the area was known as. It's not a people group

(01:39:16):
at all. And yeah, so through this whole Plo Yaser
era fat we now have tried to make this a
people group and that's just completely inaccurate. But then you
have the birthing of these other more militant organizations like
Hamas and Hesbalos. So please share some of that if
you would tell.

Speaker 1 (01:39:34):
Well, you know, the truth is all of that comes
from Islam, from radical in Islam. The in my opinion, now,
well let me back up. Most people today will tell
you that Islam is not a pagan religion because they're monotheistic.

(01:39:54):
In my opinion, Allah is the god in Lil for
ancient Babylon. I believe, I believe that that's who he is. Uh.
The uh, the interpretation of in Lil was the god.
Allah is the God. And I believe that Allah was

(01:40:15):
at one time, thousands and thousands of years ago in Lil.
And we also find that in Lil in all likelihood
was one of the monikers for Satan himself. So Satan,
Satan goes by many names, uh. And I believe that
that is the real problem. This is, this is not

(01:40:37):
this is not a political problem. And I you know,
I am sorry George W. Bush, I am sorry any
one that says our Pope John Paul the second he
knows better now, uh, that said that said that that
Allah was the same God that we worship. Absolutely not

(01:40:58):
Allah is in ill? Who was? Who is Satan? And yes,
this is a spiritual problem and what we see and
what we saw on October seventh, that was one of
the most flagrant displays of unimaginable evil. I can't even
verbalize it. Okay, uh, it was and I'll just leave

(01:41:19):
it at that, one of the most flagrant displays of
unimaginable evil that has come on on the face of
the earth in modern times. And there's only one source
for something like that, and that is the forces of
evil that is either Satan or the entities that worked

(01:41:40):
with Satan. That's where it came from. That's who they are.
And there's not a lot more to say about it.
I am.

Speaker 3 (01:41:47):
If you want to find out what ancient Babylon was like,
that's a taste of it.

Speaker 1 (01:41:51):
That's it. That's it.

Speaker 3 (01:41:52):
You know, the wickedness that was wrought on that day
to Infant's children, the despicable things that were done to them.
It's not just going in and shooting someone and they're dead.
This went well beyond, well.

Speaker 1 (01:42:04):
Way beyond that. And you see the other problem that
we have as modern twenty first century citizens. I don't
care what country you're in, we do not really understand
the extreme debauchery. I don't know what other term to use,

(01:42:24):
but the extreme debauchery that went on in everyday pagan worship,
and all of that is filtered into Islam. And they
may not do child sacrifice, they may not do those things,
but this is nothing other than a pagan religion. And
when these people give their hearts and their minds over

(01:42:51):
to the spirits of the ancient gods, or the spirits
of demons, or to the spirit of Satan, or to
Satan himself, this is what's going to happen. And that's
what we're facing. And I don't know any other way
to put it. I mean, I might be criticized for
saying that, you know, but but I'm not sorry because
that's that's what I see in the Word of God,

(01:43:14):
and what we're seeing play down in front of us
is the truth.

Speaker 3 (01:43:18):
Amen, brother, I can't I can't agree more. It's sad
and scary as it is. I mean, it's it's just
a fact, I mean, and it highlights, you know, how
much alive the Babylonian spirit truly is. It's alive and
well today. Man, It's alive and well in this cosmic
conflict coming back. It's a perfect title for the for
the book Between God and between the Enemies of God.

(01:43:41):
And you know, ultimately, you know, one of the other
things you get into in the book, and I think,
you know, for the last few minutes together, I kind
of want to highlight this because it's really interesting is
we see all of these little satellite organizations that become
big world players pop up on the map, and how
they're just a little flavor of the exact same spirit
that is anti semitic to that. But before we kind

(01:44:05):
of get into those organizations, I think it's really important
that we talk about something else that you did a
great job of highlighting in the book, which is the
difference between globalism and nationalism. Yes, because nationalism is like
becoming this dirty world. Oh yeah, and they they love
the one thing I've noticed that they do, and they
being the powers of evil, they love to associate nationalism

(01:44:30):
and specifically Christian nationalism. They they love to tie it
to Hitler and Nazism.

Speaker 1 (01:44:35):
Oh yeah, yeah, you tie it to Hitler and racism.
You know, Yes, it's racism, and it's Nazism, it's fascism, whatever,
whatever the term. They can come up with. But let's
go back to the Tower of Babble. Who was the
first nationalist. God was who separated, who separated the people
in nations? God did and so so is not an

(01:45:02):
ugly word. It is not it is not something to
be ashamed of to say that I'm a nationalist. I
am proud to be an American and I am a nationalist.
I want Donald Trump to put America first. I want well,
I want Donald Trump put God first. But politically from yeah,

(01:45:23):
from from a political perspective, you know, we should be
we should be nationalists. We should want to defend our
nation because God was the first nationalist. The first globalist
to from from if as it applies to monern Man Wasnimrod.
He wanted to gather all men together in one And

(01:45:47):
then we see, we see all of these people that
try have attempted world government. You know, the Assyrians tried it.
Uh Nimrod, Well, there was Nimrod. There were the Assyrians,
they were the Babylonians, they were the Persians that you know.
Then you got the Greeks, the Romans, uh Hitler tria It,

(01:46:10):
Napoleon trod It, Jengas Khon trod It. You know, men
over the ages have been trying to They have been
flying directly into the system that is implemented by God,
not to overcome God. And every one of these world

(01:46:31):
conquest endeavors have accessed the powers of evil. You go
to the Nazi. The case of the nazis our history books,
our history books did not tell us the deep, dark,
occultic nature of the Third Reich. You know, Hitler kept

(01:46:52):
a copy of Blavotsky's Secret Doctrine on his bedside table. Uh.
And Blavotsky's secret Doctrine is deeply deeply occultic. Arianism is
deeply occultic. Lavatsky said that the Aryan race came from Atlantis. Uh.
And of course Atlantis was ruled was ruled by Poseidon. Uh.

(01:47:15):
And of course and the and the gods are nothing
more than than the stories of the Nephelm from before
the flood. So you take it all back to its
origin and you find it's all extremely evil. And again
I can't, I'm not I'm not fluent enough to verbalize

(01:47:37):
what the you know, what the seriousness of all of this.
So we have to be we should be nationalists because
God is a nationalist. And again, if you don't agree
with that, I'm I'm sorry. I don't mean to offend you,
but that's that's the truth.

Speaker 2 (01:47:55):
Hopefully.

Speaker 3 (01:47:55):
You know, like as the remnant wakes up, because I
feel like there is I've said this several times on
this show, that there is a remnant that is a
that is awakening to things that are looking around and going,
this is something's wrong, Something's very wrong. Even outside of
the church. I think there are a lot of people.
You know, we hear the loud we hear the people
that have just been given over to a reprobate mind,
as the Bible says so very very well in Romans.

(01:48:19):
But we have a lot of people that are not
completely gone, that are sensing things are not adding up,
that two and two is not making four, and that
they're being lied to.

Speaker 2 (01:48:29):
Yeah, we haven't.

Speaker 1 (01:48:30):
You know, there there were there were secular people. They
came out when Joe Biden went off the deep end
and made that speech that was so critical of of
LAWA buying Americans, you know, when he was in front
of the red and black background in Philadelphia. Uh So,
there were there were secular people. They came out and

(01:48:51):
said this is not right, this is evil. And something
evil is going on here, and those are people that
weren't even Christians, that were that were coming out with
those kind of statements at that point in time.

Speaker 2 (01:49:06):
It reminded me of Nazi Germany.

Speaker 1 (01:49:09):
Yes, it was the color, the colors, It had a
very much of a Nazi theme.

Speaker 3 (01:49:15):
Yeah, it was. It was kind of kind of shocking.
It was spooky, bizarre, very bizarre. But yeah, you know,
going back kind of like what we highlighted a second
ago with this Babylonian spirit alive and will and a
lot of these organizations that exist nowadays, like the United Nations,
like the World Economic Forum, originally starting with the League

(01:49:38):
of Nations. So I guess rewind the clock a little
bit and the League of Nations was really the first
one to kind of come onto the scene. But kind
of walk us through these organizations that have really been
under under the underpinned and funded by the powers of darkness,
if you will.

Speaker 1 (01:49:55):
Yes, well, well, I believe what we saw in the
nineteenth century wasn't occult revival. When you had when you
had the when you had the House of Theosophy, uh,
the Order of the Golden Dawn, Uh, coming out of

(01:50:17):
fringe Freemasonry basically. Uh. And you had all these occult
organizations that were that were organized in Great Britain. Uh
and then came over to the United States.

Speaker 3 (01:50:28):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (01:50:29):
And then you and and you had this whole idea
that we were that mankind was going to be able
to establish heaven on earth and that was and that
was the real that was the real problem. Uh and
and so you had and so you had this idea
that was breaking forth all over the place. Right around

(01:50:50):
the turn of the twentieth century. UH. World War One
came along, and they claimed that that was the war
to end all wars. And the League of Nations, which
was was the logical conclusions from this philosophy, this occult
philosophy of a of a had man made heaven on Earth,

(01:51:13):
one world government kind of thing. So the League of
Nations came as the outpouring of that basic philosophy back
right after World War One. And it wasn't unfortunately for
US in the United States and for the rest of
the world. The United States rejected it. Even though Woodrow Wilson,

(01:51:35):
you know, was really one of the movers and shakers
in the in the movement. The US Congress and the
US Senate would have no part of it because they
recognized it for what it was. And so you had
so you had that come along and it was it
was squashed, but the spirit that went along with it
never was squashed. And so you know, nineteen forty seven,

(01:51:59):
nineteen forty eight came, the Great Depression came along and
people people actually turned back to God into depression because
they lost their homes, they lost their money, they lost
their livelihood, they had nowhere to turn and they turned
to God. And so there was a great there was
really a great spiritual revival right after the depression. But

(01:52:19):
the but the forces of evil and the occult were
kind of, you know, still working in the shadows during
those years, and they and they made a big out
pouring along. About the same time when the Nation of
Israel was formed, you had the formation of the World
and National Council of Churches, which was a modernist, despicable organization.

(01:52:43):
He denied all the basic doctrines of Christ and they
supported the people that like from the twenties and Harry
Emerson Falstick and those people that were against fundamental Christianity,
and that and fundamentalism gainst a bad name because of
the fundamental ISLAMI system such, but fundamental Christianity is a
good thing because that's just simply a holding to the

(01:53:05):
fundamentals of the faith that's taught by the Word of God.
And so you had all these revivals that came along,
but then all of a sudden, the forces of evil
had to counterattack with the United Nations. And I believe,
and you'll see in my next book that in nineteen
forty seven we had an event in California with a

(01:53:25):
couple of guys by the name of Jack Parsons and
l Ron Hubbard, which exercised this ritual by the name
of Babylon Working, and they claimed and the predecessor to
the OTO, after Crowley Kenneth Hill is that his name

(01:53:46):
I can't remember, came out and said that he believed
that Parsons and Hubbard actually opened a portal which started
this whole UFO phenomenon. And I also believe that it
opened the portal that allowed to act the access of
the old Gods to come through even more than they were.
And that's when you get the sixty the sexual Revolution,

(01:54:08):
and hell, it's more into the lgbt q x y
Z thing going on. And then the whole transgender as
as it as it has evolved into all these things.
This is the working of the ancient gods. But along
with that came the Global Organization of the United Nations.

(01:54:29):
And from that and under the United Nations, you know,
the United Nations has an NGO by the name of
Lucius Trust. And Lucia's Trust was originally formed by Alice
and Foster Bailey. Alice Bailey was the predecessor to Annie Bessant,
who took over the House of Theosophy for H. P.

(01:54:51):
Blovotsky and Alice Bailey wrote all of these occult books,
the the Externalization of the Hierarchy, Education in the New Age,
a lot of the basis for the New Age movement. Basically,
Alice Bailey wrote these books via automatic writing, and she
and her husband As started this organization and they called

(01:55:15):
it the Lucifer Publishing Company, And yes, it was it
was that Lucifer that they named it. After they found
that they had to change the name because too many
people didn't like the name Lucifer, so they changed it
to the Lucious Trust and the sub organizations under that.

(01:55:35):
This will all be in my new book, The sub
Organizations under that world goodwill. The new Group of World
Servers went hand in hand working with the UN and
other global organizations like the Club of Rome, the Council
for Foreign Relations, and those of which Rick Warren is
a member, by the way, or he may have retired.

(01:55:58):
You I go, figure, so you have all these occultic
this I mean dark occultic theosophy is dark occultism. And
so Alice Bailey and she founded in one of the
one of the the divisions under the Lucius Trust is

(01:56:20):
the Arcane School. Let me go on a rabbit trail
and tell you a little story. When I started researching
the U Age movement New Age movement back thirty years ago,
my brother in law knew a gentleman who was probably
the wealthiest man, or one of the wealthiest men in
his small town. And he said, he said, Mac, I'm

(01:56:43):
going to have this guy called. I'm not gonna call
his name. He's deceased now, but I still for the
sake of his family if anybody, I'll not call his name.
But he says, he says, Mac, this guy is researching
the New Age movement too, And he said you might
want to talk to him. And so I called him up,
and he said, what do you want to research that for.

(01:57:06):
I said, well, I'm called to God to do it.
And I said, that's that's the best I know to say.
And he said, well, I looked into it for a reason.
And he said, I probably shouldn't tell you this, but
I was a member of a certain fraternal organization that
and he didn't say this, but because of his wealth,

(01:57:28):
they wanted to promote me through through the organization and
make me one of the leaders. And he said, he said,
they sent me to this course and I and I
was reading all these Alice Bailey books, and he said,
you know, I wasn't even a Christian at a time,
and the man had since gotten saved and become a Christian.

(01:57:51):
And he said, I wasn't even a Christian at the time,
but I but I went to church when I was
a kid, and I knew for my third grade son
to school less and that what these books were saying
was not lining up with the Bible at all. As
a matter of fact, it was it was absolutely opposite.
And and he said, I just I just couldn't go

(01:58:12):
along with what Alice Bailey was saying. And I interrupted him,
because that blew my mind, and I said, and I said,
you mean to tell me that the local Masonic lodge
sent you to the Arcane School to promote you to
the thirty third degree. And there was dead size of

(01:58:35):
the fun they did so for about forty five seconds,
I thought he'd hung up, and he finally said, very hoarsely,
probably even more horse than I'm getting here, he said,
how did you know about that? You're not supposed to
know stuff like that. I said, well, I said, the

(01:58:56):
truth is, I knew. I know who Alice Bailey is was,
I know what the Arcane School is, and I'm thinking
the only fraternal organization that they would do that would
be the Freemasons. He said, well, you're exactly right. He said,
that's exactly what they wanted me to do. And they

(01:59:16):
wanted me to be a leader, and they wanted to
initiate me into this arcane black world, and I was
not going to do it. And so and so that's
what's going on behind the scenes here with these with
these globalist organizations, they are bowing down to none other

(01:59:39):
than Satan himself and the old gods, the false gods.
They're bowing down and giving place to the Babylonian spirit
in their lives. And the problem is these people are
the movers and shakers in the world today, and they
want to lead us into a one world government with

(02:00:02):
a one rural religion and a one world leader that
the Bible calls the anti Christ.

Speaker 2 (02:00:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:00:10):
Amen, brother, Yeah, it didn't surprise me that you had
said that he In the minute you started telling the story,
I was like, he's Freemason. In my mind, it's the
only thing that made sense from some of the religious
aspect of things. Could it could have been Nights of Columbus,
which is well basically eclipsement. But he could have been
a former Freemason myself, former freemason. I was only in

(02:00:30):
there about a year and a half and I saw
things and I'm like, nope.

Speaker 1 (02:00:32):
No, this is that.

Speaker 2 (02:00:33):
I'm out.

Speaker 1 (02:00:34):
He could have been. The House of Theosophy still exists. Yeah,
the uh, the Order of the Golden Dawns still exists,
to my knowledge. The Oto is still out there. Uh.
And so you do have you do have? These are
the other occult organizations that are even if it's possible,

(02:00:54):
even darker. But see, I believe that Freemasonry. Well, let
me back up a minute. And this isn't my new
book as well. When Jesus acquired the power that he
acquired at the resurrection, you know, we read the We

(02:01:15):
read the uh the great commission, Go ye therefore into
all the world and preach the Gospel, which is a
good thing to read and a good thing and a
wonderful thing to do. That's our charge. But it's said,
but the first word of that verse is therefore, go
ye into all the world and preach the Gospel. You know,
one of the things I learned in Christian College, one

(02:01:38):
of the one of the favorite sayings was whenever you
see a therefore in the Bible, you have to go
back to the previous verse and see what the therefore
is there for. And the previous verse says all power
is given to be in heaven and in earth. And
if if that is why we could go into all

(02:02:01):
the world, If all power was given to Jesus and
his resurrection, that implies that he intentionally limited his power
prior to that time. We can confirm that scripturally in
Daniel chapter ten, when the pre incarnate Christ is talking

(02:02:22):
to Daniel and said, well, I tried to get here,
but I was held up by the King of Grecia,
who was the King of Grecia, and he said, then
I got to go battle to the King of Persia.
Those were the fallen sons of God that had been
given authority over the nations. And so Jesus, God in
the flesh, God himself has intentionally limited his power to

(02:02:50):
the point to where he gave those entities power over
the gentile nations, because that's what they deserved, after all,
because of what happened at the Tower about So, so
we have this this situation where where Jesus, with his
resurrection now has all power at his disposal, even over

(02:03:17):
the nations if he chooses to even over these gods,
if he chooses to use it. But these false gods
that are the youth that are ruling the nations still
have a a quite a bit a lot of power
because he still lets him. He gives him a long leash,

(02:03:39):
quite honestly. And so and so we see that we
see that plane out in the whole spirit of babylon idea,
because the Babylonian spirit is a one world mindset, a
mindset to bring everybody together at the at the lowest
level is grouply, but it moves up from group the

(02:04:00):
into a worldwide situation. And that's why you have organizations
like the World Economic Form. That's why you have people
like Bill Gates, the Clinton's, the Bushes, and all of
these other guys that have given themselves over to this
spirit of Babylon, that it accesses the old guides to

(02:04:23):
bring them back on the scene.

Speaker 2 (02:04:25):
Yep, amen. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:04:27):
One of the other things through my study that I
have found too about Christ and about that verse specifically
about all power has been given to me and ultimately
it's been given to you to go do right, these
things right, because you'll do greater things than I. After
he was gone, he told us that. But one of
the things that I it's so funny, it never dawned

(02:04:47):
on me until here recently doing my own study, writing
my own book, that what happened was, you know, we
go back all the way to the garden, and the
minute that that event happened with Adam and Eve, we
lost our dominion over the earth. We were no longer
worthy to have that, and by default the dominion went

(02:05:09):
to Satan. And that's why he is the prince and
the ruler of this the earth right. And what happened
was when Christ died on the cross having lived a
sinless life, effectively because he was also fully man, there

(02:05:31):
was a human that was worthy to get the deed back.
So the earth and everything in it was deeded back
to Christ at that particular time. And we can see
this in Revelation with the Seventh Scroll or seven sealed Scroll.
That's right, no one is found worthy to open the
seven Sealed Scroll except for Jesus, and that is because

(02:05:54):
he was worthy to do that because of his sinless life.
So he became he he is the new deed owner
for the earth in my opinion, Well.

Speaker 1 (02:06:03):
They that seven seal Scroll is the title deed to
the earth. Yes, and yes he holds it, but he
is not implementing it until that point when he opens
those seals, he implements that authority. So we're still living
in a time that that while Jesus has been given

(02:06:24):
the power, that that uh that these false gods are
still reigning over over the nations. And that's and that's
and that's what we have to deal with on a
daily basis.

Speaker 2 (02:06:38):
It is.

Speaker 3 (02:06:39):
So my next follow up question I'm going to ask,
but I'm going to say that we're going to get
into this in our after hour segment with our members only.
So if you want to be a part of these conversations,
please please please, I can't ask you to help me
out enough. Become a member of the show, and this
is one of the perks that you get for doing
that and supporting me. Become a member of the show,

(02:07:00):
and you actually get access to these after hours, you know,
discussions with our guests, and the conversation will continue over
there with with what happens next. Right, we have a
regime change in America, We have a complete policy shift
in America. We have a president that is very pro Israel,

(02:07:22):
moved our embassy into Jerusalem, and so things have changed
a lot over the last six months, even since our
new president's been in office. So it's really the questions
are going to be what happens next after this, and
if you want to be a part of that, please
be a member of the show.

Speaker 2 (02:07:40):
Would really appreciate that.

Speaker 3 (02:07:42):
And really with that, if you guys enjoy this conversation,
check out this conversation with Doug Hamp. Doug Hamp is
actually a gentleman that Mac actually references several times in
his book. Doug is a fantastic linguist. But this conversation
that I had with him on satanic hybrids, which really
revolves around this second book in his series, Corrupting the Image,

(02:08:06):
You're definitely gonna want to check out that conversation with
Doug Hamp So with that, stay frosty until next time.

Speaker 2 (02:08:13):
Guys, take care,

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