REconstructing The Faith | Defeating Bad Doctrine & Understanding Spiritual Warfare - The Word At War

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
In twenty thirteen, I started questioning the things that I
had learned. I want to find a chapter and verse
for these things that I believe, and I was alarmed
how many things were not there at all, or it

(00:24):
was a misunderstanding of the culture or the context of
the actual scripture, or it was just being wittingly or
unwittingly distorted.

Speaker 2 (00:36):
What I learned is that as I pulled out more
and more Jenga pieces, my faith in God got more honed.

Speaker 1 (00:48):
In on.

Speaker 3 (00:57):
Welcome to the War Room. I'm Kyle, and thank you
for joining me once again on the word at War. Well,
my guest today is return guest I guess I should say,
is my friend Vicki Joy Anderson. So, Vicky, thanks so
much for joining me again.

Speaker 1 (01:11):
Hey, thanks for inviting me. Good to be here.

Speaker 3 (01:14):
Yeah, absolutely, I'll read you all. If you're not familiar
with Vicky, we'll get into her story a little bit
more here in a second. Just to kind of do
a little prelude, though, I will give you a quick
bio and introduction so you have a little idea of
who we're speaking with today. So, Vicky Joy is an
author and public speaker. She tackles the topic of spiritual
warfare and other topics on the fringe, Near and Dear
to my Heart. Of course, she enjoys writing and researching

(01:35):
topics the average American church ignores or denounces again Near
and Dear to my Heart, and comes at them from
the bedrock of scripture and an intimate relationship with the
God of the Bible. She believes she's called to address
these issues that plague so many believers and non believers alike,
shining light in the darkness, providing scriptural tools and weapons,

(01:57):
helping people to break free from the dark ties that
bob and leading the unsaved to Jesus. Amen. So her
latest book, which we are probably going to talk about
some things from this but is not going to be
our main topic today. We have another show for that,
and I will reference that at the end. Her latest
book is Actually They Only Come Out at Night, which
deals largely with unspoken or dismissed phenomenon of sleep paralysis,

(02:20):
in which entities present themselves as angels, spirit guides, or
dearly departed loved ones. While often misunderstood, these entities have
the same end game as their historic demonic counterparts, to
lure us into the arms of an awaiting Messiah, which
is their messiah and not our messiah. So I'm excited

(02:41):
to speak with my friend today and talk to her
about the topic of spiritual warfare in general. We're kind
of have a generalized topic today because it gets into
so many different avenues. And obviously you could see in
the bio that there are a lot of things that
she feels called to and that she is doing. The
book is one of them that I just held up
that we're going to get into. You can actually find
more about her at Vickijoyanderson dot com, and if you

(03:02):
want to send her an email, you can do that
VJA a U T h O R. So that's VJA
author at gmail dot com. And you can also head
over to our website, The Word at warmedia dot com
to find out all of her info, bio and links
to all of her stuff as well. All right, so
let's dive into spiritual warfare today. So my first question is,

(03:23):
and I guess for anybody that it maybe doesn't know
you that well, isn't familiar, what is kind of your
background into how you kind of stepped into this world
and started diving in deeper.

Speaker 1 (03:36):
It wasn't anything I ever would have chosen. In fact,
when I would hear people talk about it, you know,
the rust istars and things, I would have a little
bit of anxiety over it. And I remember one day
my dad and I were driving home from one of
these conferences, and we had been to many of them,
and my dad said, you know, there must be a

(03:56):
reason why the Lord wants to know us, to know
all this in depth information about sleep paralysis. And I
had one of those here, I am Lord, send somebody
else moments, you know, like oh no, yeah, what is
this for? But I'll tell you this. You know, this
is the flip side to forty years of sleep paralysis.

(04:22):
You can look at it from the perspective of anyone
who's under that violent of an attack for that long
must be out of the will of God, must have
secret sin, must not really be a Christian, must be
dabbling with the occult. But you can look at it
from a flip perspective as well. Because Satan's going to

(04:44):
harass and attack believers, that's what he does. You can
look at it this way. I have been learning firsthand
spiritual warfare since I was three years old. Yeah, maybe
even before then, but three four years old. Was the
first incident of sleep paralysis that I very clearly remember.

(05:07):
So was it scary, yes? Was was it you know, consistent? Yes?
Did it happen a lot, yes, hundreds of times. But
what it wound up doing, unbeknounced to me, is it
was teaching me spiritual warfare. So you can read all
the books in the world you want on spiritual warfare,

(05:29):
and I've read many, and you can listen to the sermons,
and I've listened to many, and you can study the
old books and you know, the Montague Summers and the
old Guys and who else, the Derrek Prince's and all
these these things. You know, russ Is are all these
people that I had listened to. But it was the
on the job training that taught me the most. So

(05:51):
if you if you go into the back of my book,
you're going to see endnotes. You're going to see hundreds
of endnotes, and you're going to see all these books
and things that I'm reference. But the bulk of the
material that made it into print came from forty years
of facing these entities, whether I could see them or not,

(06:16):
and testing and testing the spirits and tasting and seeing
that the Lord is good seeing first hand the power
of his name and how demons flee in terror when
you know your authority, and when you believe the word

(06:37):
of God, and when you see things that other people
don't see, when you understand this is more than a dream,
I'm interfacing with something real. And Kyle, I knew that
instinctively as early as three years old. Now, I didn't
have all the theological terms of the seraphs and the
cherubs and the fallen angels and the watchers and the nepheline.

(06:57):
I didn't. I don't even think I knew it demon
was at that at that point, but I'd been to
Sunday School, and I knew that when I had those experiences,
it was the devil. And the reason I knew it
was the devil is because when I instinctively, out of
my innocence, said Jesus helped me, they instantly went away.

(07:21):
And so I just I was learning beyond what my
little Sunday School education was at that time, and so
forty years of that on top of all the regular
spiritual warfare that we all experienced, righty.

Speaker 2 (07:38):
It just.

Speaker 1 (07:40):
I never intended to do this, Kyle. I never would
have volunteered for this. I never would have known that
I had the kutzbah for this. Especially, I still feel
so underqualified when people call me and want help. I

(08:01):
am so dependent on the Lord. I have to pray before, during,
and after those calls. I am so dependent. Every call
is different every circumstance. You know, when someone gives you
a five to ten minute synopsis of what's going on.

(08:23):
I'm not a dream interpreter. I'm not a prophet. I
don't have these amazing spiritual gifts where I can talk
to a person and pull things out of a hat
like Daniel did. I can't sit and guess what people dreamed,
or what happened to them, or what the trauma was.
And so that makes me, even with all of my

(08:46):
own personal experience in interfacing with these things, that doesn't
make you an expert. Here's a good metaphor. Here's a
good example. I can drive a stick shift, but I
don't know if I could teach someone how to do it.
It's a tricky thing. It's intuitive your brain and your

(09:09):
muscle memory, and you're working with how the pedal feels
under You can't explain to someone when to shift gears.
It was very intuitive, and it's so I can understand
in my mind sleep paralysis and what's sort of happening
to me. But to have another person with all of

(09:31):
the intricacies and the complexities of their life and not
knowing how much of the scriptures they know, or what
they believe, or what their paradigm is or what their
worldview is, I will just tell you, I just cringe
when I'm on podcasts and people introduce me as the

(09:52):
expert in sleep paralysis or none of us know a thing.
For everything that I figure out, Kyle, for everything that
the spirit reveals to me, it just becomes for every
piece of the puzzle, I get the camera pans out

(10:12):
and it becomes more and more and more wide angle,
like there's no figuring some of this stuff out. It
just boggles my brain. And so I just try to
make it clear to people that we are all in
this together. And part of the amazing organic discussion that
we're having online on all of these podcasts is that

(10:35):
all of the people that have these experiences now have
the opportunity to share their notes, and in sharing the notes,
maybe you're going to figure out a few things you
didn't know before because Vicky said said it, and it
was like, oh my gosh, she's right. But for every
one thing I tell people that make sense to them,
I'm getting hundreds of people writing me and telling me

(10:57):
things that are adding to my bigger picture of this.
So I am never going to get to the point
where I think I've got this figured out.

Speaker 3 (11:07):
Yeah. No, I can totally relate to that, because you know,
I've said this so many times, but it just keeps
coming up over and over again because it's just the
truth is sitting at this intersection point, having all these
different conversations about these different topics with these different people
who have experience in that those particular topics, what you
really get is exactly what you just said, is you
get this this unbelievable feeling of not so much overwhelmed,

(11:33):
but almost overwhelm, of realizing just how monumentally huge this
war is that goes largely unspoken by the church, you know,
and all of the aspects and facets to it. And
it's so multifaceted, you know, like sleep paralysis is just
one facet of this spiritual war that we're all engaged in,

(11:56):
and largely we just almost ignore these things and pretend
they don't exist, and the scope we're so far behind,
I guess is really what I keep coming back to is,
you know, how can we fight in a war? And
this is what I feel like I've been called to
do as well, is to highlight the different aspects of
the spiritual warfare that we're engaged in, because it plays

(12:16):
out every single day in the world and we see it,
but we don't often connect the dots to the underpinnings
of what it truly is. And it always, always, everything
that plays out comes back to spiritual warfare. And one
of the things that I have noticed and I've you know,
been thankful, Thanks be to the Lord for you know, longevity,

(12:38):
and you know, some praise there to him for you know,
just whatever success has been had through this process of
having over one hundred episodes, which is you know, awesome,
But none of the episodes that we that have been
done have had the kind of responses that I have
seen from people on our first episode where we spoke

(12:59):
to you about this particular topic. It is amazing to
me how many people are searching for answers because this
one especially just goes really especially untouched and there seems
to be a really concerted effort to dismiss it and
bury it. So I guess my first follow up question

(13:21):
to you there is, you know, you mentioned this in
the book, and it's definitely something that I have seen
as well. Why do you think there is such a
concerted effort to deliberately dismiss this as some kind of
ubiti gubity, just make believe nonsense thing.

Speaker 1 (13:37):
Yeah, I think because there is an agenda behind it,
and if the agenda is exposed, they probably have to
come up with a Plan B. And Plan A has
been working for centuries, if not millennia, and so they
don't want people figuring it out because you know, then

(13:58):
they'll have to regroup. You know, it was really interesting
just this morning in my devotions talk about obscure. I
was reading in the book of hav A Cook.

Speaker 3 (14:09):
The off book Off book, and.

Speaker 1 (14:15):
In chapter one, verse ten, and now it's talking about
physical armies. It's talking about the enemies of Israel, right,
So it's talking about all of these armies, and it
says they so that they here is these literal armies,
they laugh at every fortress and heap up rubble to

(14:37):
capture it. So, in other words, in the in the physical,
tangible sense of war. You have got enemies. So you're
building walls, and you're building ramparts, and you're building you know,
the cannons inside of the crow steps, and you've got
the oil that you're dumping. You've got all of these

(14:58):
methods that if someone comes to seize your city, and
it's saying that the knowledge of warfare, that all they
have to do is pile up rubble and they can
climb over your walls. And so, if you want to
get esoteric, where did man initially learn warfare? We learned

(15:22):
it from a zasl, and we learned it from the watchers.
You know, go back to Enoch if that is interest
of interest to you. But we if we learned warfare
from fallen angels, then that means that the angels on
a spiritual level know how to make war with believers.
So if we're building up spiritual fortresses, let's just go

(15:46):
with the metaphor of sleep paralysis. And so many Christians.
I talk to VICKI I've done everything. I'm a genuine believer.
I love Jesus, I'm walking in covenant with him. I'm
a real Christian. Okay, I follow his commands. I repent

(16:07):
of my sin. I am. You know. It's it's sad
how much of the phone calls have to be prefaced
with them begging me to believe that they really are
a Christian. And the reason why that's necessitated is because
if you tell the average pastor or Christian that you're
suffering with this, their immediate reaction is that you've opened

(16:30):
a door, or you're a sinner, You've got a secret sin,
you're playing with Luigi board. Yeah, yeah, you know, you've
got a pornography addiction, you're cheating on your wife, like whatever.
And so what's let's carry the spiritual metaphor. If the
demon world knows how to pile up rubble and climb

(16:54):
up over our walls, they are laughing at our fortress.
And so this is why we have so many Christians
that say, I pray before I go to bed. I
go to bed like with an audio Bible playing. I
have you know my husband pray over me. I haven't,
like I have a friend pray over me. I anoint

(17:17):
my bedroom door with oil, I anoint my four bedposts
with oil. That we're doing all of these things and
they still come. They're laughing at the way we're heaping
up these fortresses. So they've had a real stronghold over
humanity with this for a very long time. And so

(17:38):
if they can cloak themselves behind disinformation like it only
happens to, you know, people dabbling in the occult, it
it's a mental illness, it's narcolepsy, it's schizophrenia. Just as
an aside, Kyle, because as believers, we really want to

(18:01):
come off credible in our knowledge, and this age old
trope that sleep paralysis is schizophrenia, if I can just
speak on that for one moment, Even the medical experts
in the secular fields are beginning to abandon that idea.

(18:23):
If you go on to credible medical websites that not
necessarily the ones that talk about sleep paralysis, because those
are still filled with misinformation. But if you go on
to credible medical websites that talk about schizophrenia, if you
go on to schizophrenia message boards, if you ask AI

(18:46):
what's the link between sleep paralysis and schizophrenia, what it
will tell you once it has gathered all of the
algorithms and put together a summary for you, is that
about fifteen percent of diagnosed schizophrenics people diagnosed with schizophrenia,

(19:11):
fifteen percent of them will tell you they have sleep paralysis.
So that leaves eighty five percent of diagnosed people with
schizophrenia that don't have it right. And so we have
to get away from these Neanderthal copy pasted narratives that
we've just heard our whole lives. The fact of the

(19:32):
matter is sleep paralysis and schizophrenia have some similar experiences.
People with sleep paralysis will have visualizations, they'll hear voices,
and so will people who are diagnosed with schizophrenia. But
that doesn't mean every single person who has a sleep
paralysis attack is schizophrenic, or every person who's been diagnosed

(19:54):
schizophrenia is going to have sleep paralysis. So that's just
one example, and I want to slip that in there, Kyle,
just be because I'm getting a lot more comments like
that on my social media, you know, from people trying
to be helpful. I presume, you know, we all have
to be good Brians. But it's like, no, no, no,
this has nothing to do with trauma. It has nothing
to do with PTSD, it has nothing to do with
abuse or ritual abuse. It has nothing to do with

(20:15):
the demon world. You are schizophrenic, and we just have
to start becoming intellectually honest. In an age now where
so much information is available to us, we have to
start in the medical field as well as in the church,
as well as consumers of information. We need to start

(20:35):
being more intellectually honest about these types of things. There's
definitely a physiological aspect to all of this. We're mind, soul,
and body. We can't separate and compartmentalize that. If we
experience something, our mind, our soul, and our body are
all going to participate in that in some way. Yes,
sleep paralysis absolutely has physiological elements to it. It has

(21:00):
mental side effects to it. There's physical aspects to it,
but that does not mean there's nothing spiritual about it.
And likewise to the church, I'll say that even if
you can one hundred percent scientifically method prove that these
are demonic entities, you still can't strip the fact that

(21:21):
the body and the brain are experiencing this along with
the soul.

Speaker 3 (21:27):
Yeah. Yeah. One of the other things too that came
to mind as you were just sharing that, and I'm
glad you did, is because it kind of takes us
down another road that I want to go down. And
I have some other questions on what we've already talked
about and spiritual warfare today may wind up just being
on this topic because there's so much in here that
goes unaddressed. But have you found a correlation? And it
sure seems because it seems to be the case. And

(21:50):
I know my conversation with our mutual friend David Heavener,
he kind of gets into this as part of his background.
Is it seems like all the things we do to
treat these things, the drugs and all of the natural
pathways that we have not natural from a naturalistic standpoint,
but the normal paths to treat these things with pharmaceuticals

(22:12):
only seems to exacerbate the issue. Do you find that
to be the case as well?

Speaker 1 (22:19):
Yeah, absolutely so. Many of the online council. If you're
having paranormal activity or sleep paralysis or night tares, not
only are they completely ineffective, and I'm going to go
into that in a second, not only are they ineffective,

(22:40):
you're actually digging yourself deeper, and in fact, some of
these things you're actually summoning or covenanting with. So example,
the salt along the threshold, that's a salt covenant. You're
actually inviting the things in, not keeping them out. Or

(23:01):
if they're already in and you're putting the salt there,
you're keeping them in. And demons aren't afraid of sage,
they're not afraid of hawthorn on your nightstand.

Speaker 3 (23:13):
You know, where do we get this stuff from?

Speaker 1 (23:15):
Like?

Speaker 3 (23:16):
Where does this where does this stuff come from?

Speaker 1 (23:18):
This is what I think it is. It's really clever.
What these entities do is they create these little rules
and then people perform them. They dutifully perform these rituals,
which is in essence, you know, saying I'm you're doing

(23:38):
a ritual, you know what I mean? And so what's
happening then is the demons will lay off and they
won't present themselves in that manner anymore. So after you
do the sage or the salt or the hawthorn on
the night stand, or you click your heels three times
and say there's no place like home or whatever it is, right,

(23:59):
they cease and desist the paranormal activity or the poultrygeist
activity or the sleep paralysis activity, so that you go
on thinking that they are gone. And then they lay
latent for a while, and then they re manifest in
a completely different, usually more subtle, non paranormal way, so

(24:22):
you will never put two and two together that it's
the same entities that never left. So later on it's
going to manifest, maybe as a physical illness, maybe it's
going to manifest in a troubled marriage. And I've gotten
numerous emails I've talked to people as well as you'll
read these sort of things in nineteenth and twentieth century literature,

(24:47):
and that is that there is an aspect of these
entities that attach that will destroy marriages. I don't really
like the phrase spirit spouse because it's so associated with shamanism,

(25:07):
and it just sounds it's very new wage, it's very Hollywood,
and so people immediately get the cognitive distance and they bristle.
So it let's just explain it in a way that
might make more sense to someone who reads scripture Ephesians
six twelve. You know our battle is not against flesh
and blood. So if we know that we're in a

(25:29):
battle with these things, these entities, once you have given
them an invitation, they will attach, and they will dig
their claws, and they are not going to just let go. Now,
if you say in the name of Jesus, they might
kind of like shrink back. But if you're if you
don't know how to break those covenants, they are jellouss

(25:52):
and they are not going to just let go of
someone like, oh, well, so what can happen is someone
will go online, they'll do their little sage, or they'll
light their candle, or they'll do whatever, and the thing
will go away, and they're not necessarily going to put

(26:15):
two and two together that three years later when the
marriage all of a sudden goes crazy or you know,
the rebellious child occurs, or the illness and the family
or the whatever. And it's really hard to explain this
stuff to the church because it's not talked about, like

(26:37):
when we talk about spiritual warfare. Now, for the most part, Kyle,
I've heard a lot of spiritual warfare sermons in the
last ten fifteen years, and it's all this. My car
didn't start on the way to church. I laid hands
on the hood of my car, and you.

Speaker 3 (26:57):
Know, well, it really stems It stems from the fact
that in my mind, and you know, you obviously get
your take on this, but it really stems from the
fact that we don't dive into I think we dive
into the garden. I don't know that that's necessarily a problem,
because it's kind of the root of everything that happens
after that point. But what we totally whiff on in

(27:19):
the church is we wiff on Genesis six. I've never
heard a pastor to even to this day, I've never
heard a pastor speak on Genesis six. Never. And the
other one that we don't really spend much time on
is the Tower of Babel, and I think those three
events are completely seminal to understanding the essence of spiritual warfare.
And the really sad part about it is is, in

(27:39):
a lot of ways, the way I view this may
be controversial, but whatever it is, what it is, I
really truly feel this way. But when we don't understand
those things, we're left completely unprepared. One but two, we
almost devalue the gift of what Christ, or the understanding
of what Christ was doing here while he was on

(28:01):
the earth. And you know, it wasn't just the redemption
of us from a salvatory standpoint, which was awesome, and
that's yeah, that should be the focal point of the
main thing, but it was the combating of the spiritual
warfare that he was engaged in, and we totally miss
that because we just don't have a deeper understanding of
the spiritual war that led up to that moment. We

(28:23):
have no understanding of what he's doing when he goes
to Cesero Philippi and it's just so sad. And know
that the church just till he misses that.

Speaker 1 (28:32):
Absolutely so. If a Christian does not understand spiritual warfare,
and I'm not talking I broke a nail, I couldn't
find a parking spot at the mall kind of stuff, right,
I mean, I mean, be sober minded, be vigilant your adversary.
The devil is a prowling lion seeking someone to devour.

(28:53):
That's the spiritual warfare I'm talking about. I want to
destroy you. I want to destroy your faith. I want
to destroy your mental health. I want to destroy your family,
utter soul destruction. That's what I mean when I say
spiritual warfare. If the believer doesn't believe in or recognize
spiritual warfare, if they don't understand covenants, if they don't

(29:18):
understand thresholds, and they don't understand the context, culture, history, language,
and geography of the text, they will be sitting ducks
when Satan decides it's time to sift you like wheat.
We live in a country where we've had very little persecution.

(29:40):
Our persecution is people get on Facebook and tell us
we're morons. We get on social medium, people talk about
are you eating paint chips and you have a tinfoil hat?
That's our persecution, right? Who cares? That is? You know,
in one ear out the other. We haven't had to
lay down our lives. We haven't had our own family
member hunt us down and kill us or disown us.

(30:03):
We don't know, and so we have never really been
able to test where we are at. How resilient are
we going to be if something like job happened to us?
At what point would be our breaking point? Would we
make it all the way to our house being destroyed,

(30:24):
all of our children dying and being in physical pain?
Like how resilient as Americans would we be? I mean,
and still praising the Lord? Yeah? I mean we got
people that are freaking out if they're you know, in
an unair conditioned church building. I mean, this is where

(30:45):
we're at. And so how resilient are we really going
to be? If we have been out of practice for
over two hundred years as a culture of being inconvenient
or having to defend our faith, So it's never really

(31:07):
been tested. And if we go into an era like
that and we don't understand our enemy, you know, let's
we can go into art of war analogies here. If
we don't know our enemy, I could go in so
many directions right right now, Kyle. But the fact is

(31:29):
the Church is so absolutely unprepared for what's coming, and
we have to the way the Bible is so consistently
militaristic in its metaphors, right, there's so many military terms

(31:51):
in scripture. Even our Great commission, the word commission is
a military term. And so this idea of being prepared
for battle, we're told in Revelation to be prepared, you know,
have your oil lamps ready and all of this, and
that in a military sense, being prepared for war means

(32:18):
you have seriously considered the realistic notion that things could
be bad, they could be worse, or they could be
worse than you imagined, and you prepare for every single possibility.
So in that sense, whether there's a rapture, a pre

(32:41):
trip rapture or not, doesn't even matter to me, Kyle,
because if is we have not prepared for a mid
trip or a post trip, if we have failed to
prepare for the other options, we've already disobeyed God. We're
supposed to prepare. So when I go on a picnic,
I don't want it to rain. And I can tell

(33:03):
everybody for months and months, it's not going to rain
on my Fourth of July picnic. It's not going to rain.
It's not going to rain. So I can show up
without any sort of canopies or umbrellas, but that that
means I didn't go prepared. And so this idea of
a best case scenario, I mean, it even says it
in the Proverbs that you don't build a building until

(33:25):
you've drawn out the blueprints and you've counted the cost,
and you know the budget. And anybody who's going to
buy a house or build a house, or do anything.
When you're putting together a budget, you put together a
range of Okay, my rent might be a thousand, it
might be fifteen hundred, my groceries might be two hundred
a month, they might be five hundred a month. So

(33:46):
when you're actually preparing the budget, you pick the high
end on everything so that in a worst case scenario,
you've got enough money, and in a best case scenario,
you've got money left over. And the way that we
are eschatologically budgeting our souls is jaw dropping to me.

(34:09):
I don't want to suffer, Yeah, I don't. I don't
want to have to theologically try to reconstruct the character
of God in my mind, which well I would have
to do if God would allow this. I can't face that.

(34:29):
It's insurmountable to think of that kind of fear. So
it's not going to happen. So, Kyle, I hope, I
hope I don't have some sort of death wish. I
don't want to get pulled into a FEMA camp and
have my toenails pulled out and have my fingers cut off.
I'm not looking forward to that. I don't want that
to happen. But am I prepared if it does? And

(34:57):
that's where the obedience lies. It never says, as pick
and ask, you know, come up with a solid eschatological
battle plan and stick to it. Nowhere in scripture does
it say figure out when I'm coming back. All it
tells us is to prepare. And if we're not prepared,

(35:21):
for every potential outcome, we're in disobedience. We've been commanded
to be prepared. And because we're dealing with an unfathomable mind,
this mind of God, and because Jesus never seemed to

(35:42):
fulfill the predictions that the human beings in the first
century had for him. Well, he's going to overthrow Rome
and he's going to do this, and he's going to
set up a kingdom, and he never fulfilled what they expected.
So if that's what we're dealing with, if that's the
kind of God, we're dealing with one that human beings

(36:03):
have failed for thousands of years to properly predict, and
he has said be prepared, then I think we need
to understand from a military standpoint what being prepared for
that battle means. And you know, if we're going to
talk about spiritual warfare, you know, sleep paralysis, whatever, that

(36:23):
that's just a flea on your arm you can flick
away when we're talking about spiritual warfare. If we're not
going to have some honest discussions about the painfully unprepared
state the Church is in right now, oh my goodness.

(36:47):
And if we're on the battlefield and we've got our
armor on and we've we've been trained, and we know
how to load our weapons and we know how to
fire them, and we've learned how to you know, kick
the horse with the spurs. And we're on a battlefield
filled with thousands of other soldiers who never even learned

(37:10):
how to load their weapon because they didn't think they're
gonna need it. We are dead meat.

Speaker 3 (37:15):
Yeah, you nailed it, man. That's exactly where I think
we are too. I mean, you and I see this
exactly the same. Matter of fact, what I just wrote
down that I wanted to follow up with is we're
divided and blind because I think one of the main tactics,
especially in America that has happened, It's happened throughout the world,
but here you can really see it is we have
all of these different denominations and all of the soldiers

(37:36):
are literally scattered on the battlefield. You know, in the
minute you get everybody running in different directions and scattered
and there's no uniformity and there's no you know, working
together to you know, be a stronger unit. The enemy
has you right where they need you, and we need
to understand. I can't overemphasize this point. We need to

(37:56):
understand who the enemy combatants are. On the other side,
the leader of that is one of the smartest entities
that has ever been created. Okay, we hate to give
him his due, but we need to be honest about
what we're up against. This entity has been around for
at least thousands of years. If you've subscribed to a

(38:17):
longer timeframe than that, then it only gets more terrifying.
And all of the things that Christ says about this
entity that we can read about in the Bible, about
this entity and the things that we can see this
entity is involved with, and all of the evil around him,
demons and everything else. They are masters at warfare. Masters.

(38:45):
They have perfected it. And as the technology increases, we
just get more and more on the short end of
the ability to fight back. So for us to be
so woefully underprepared from it, even a base nine college
perspective of the enemy combatants on the other side, most
Christians can't even tell you what the origins of a

(39:05):
demon is. Well, why can they not do that because
they're not taught about Genesis six. If you're not taught
about Genesis six, you're never going to have a really
good solid understanding of what a demon is. So how
can you have an understanding of how to combat it
if you don't even know what it is. The other
thing too, and I wrote this down when you were
talking about spiritual warfare or sleep paralysis specifically, I think

(39:27):
one of the things that really plagues us, whether it's
sleep paralysis or any other spiritual warfare. The Church also
doesn't teach us because they don't teach us the hierarchical
structure of just who we are in the Kingdom of God.
The Church and doesn't teach us that we have dominion
over these things. They do not have dominion over us.

(39:50):
We are of a higher created place than a demon.
A demon is the lowest wrong man. So know who
you are in God and in Christ. And if you
do that and you stand firm, they don't stand a chance.
But they have us so convinced that we are weaker
than they are. It's just shocking to me.

Speaker 1 (40:13):
Yeah, yeah, it is. And to your point, Kyle, not
only are they masters of warfare, but they are merciless.
Oh so this whole American idea where oh you know, okay,
there's rules of war and we're going to follow them, okay,
because we're a civilized country. And I'm not being sarcastic here,

(40:35):
it's not politically correct. We're not going to waterboard our hostages.
We're not going to torture them, you know, allegedly off
the record. You know, we believe this isn't happening. But
we we as Americans at least believe that the government
is keeping the rules of warfare and that when we
have hostages and things, we're not torturing them and we're

(40:56):
not waterboarding them and all that. Now, whether we really
are or not behind closed doors is anyone's guess. But
the enemies of God are mercy less. They're not going
to let you off the hook. They're not going to
say we'll give you. You know, I think about the
last scene in Brave Heart, where hey, if you just

(41:18):
admit you were wrong and kiss the ring will kill
you very quickly. You're going to die either way. But
we've got this little loophole for you that will you
have your choice. You can die quickly or we can
do this the hard way or the easy way. Right
there is no easy way with the enemy. They are merciless.

(41:39):
And so this idea that we're going to plead for
our life and they're somehow going to feel sorry for
us or make it easy on us. Doesn't work that way.

Speaker 3 (41:50):
Let me say sorry really quick. I just wanted to
read this because as you were talking, you know, it
made me think of this first, which is Revelation twelve twelve. Therefore,
rejoice so Heaven and you who dwell in them. But
woe to you, o earth and see, for the devil
has come down to you in great wrath because he
knows his time is short. Imagine if you had the
gun put to your head, just how much more diligent

(42:13):
you would be if you knew that you have to
win the game or else. And they do believe that
they can win the.

Speaker 1 (42:20):
Game, which is terrifying, insanity.

Speaker 3 (42:23):
Sorry, I mean no, that's great.

Speaker 1 (42:24):
I'm glad. I am glad you interjected that. So I'm
gonna give an analogy, and hopefully I won't be belaboring
the point, but I want people to understand this will
culminate in something encouraging. I believe. Uh. When most people
think about living through the end times, the predominant motivating

(42:45):
factor is fear. And so let's talk a little bit
about fear and the proper way to overcome it you
don't overcome fear in the heat of the battle. It's
something that you have to profess before you suit up
and go to the battlefield, learning on the job, training

(43:07):
in the midst of a war, how to not be
afraid for the first time. It's probably not going to work.

Speaker 3 (43:11):
No, probably not.

Speaker 1 (43:12):
So I'm going to give an analogy, and hopefully this
won't become obnoxious. But let's say I'm going to have
a physical fitness test and my personal trainer gives me
five different exercises, and he said, when you come in
for your physical fitness test, and you're not going to
get your your dream job if you don't pass this test,

(43:36):
I'm going to test you on three of the five.
But I'm not going to tell you which five. So
I look at this list of five and I see
a couple of things on there that I do not
like doing. So I'm going to, let's say planks, because
I hate planks. You know, a ten second plank feels
like an hour to me. I'm such a baby when

(43:57):
it comes to planks, And so if one of the
things on that test is three ninety second planks, I'm
gonna say, oh my gosh, I can't even father. That's horrible,
he said, I was only going to get tested on
three of the five. I don't like planks, so I'm

(44:19):
not going to practice the planks because I'm just going
to assume he's not really going to put that on
the test because he's a nice guy and he knows
I hate planks, so he's gonna, you know, err on
the side of favoring me and be merciful. So I
show up for my test and the first thing he
tells me to do is three ninety second planks. And

(44:40):
I never practiced a plank because I don't like them.
So I fail that test and I become filled immediately
with anxiety and panic because he's now asking me to
do these planks that I didn't practice. For Now, on
the flip side, I look at this list and I think,
oh my gosh, I hate planks. There's no way I'm
going to do thirty, you know, three ninety second planks.

(45:03):
So I practice, and I practice and I practice, and
every day I'm doing multiple planks and my body is
shaking and I'm hating every single second of it. And
I get to the point where I practice so much
I can do a three minute plank. So I show
up for the test and he says, you're going to

(45:25):
do three ninety second planks. And I am filled with
confidence because I now know I can do twice that amount,
and I conquer it. So here's the deal. When you're
prepared for something, you become fearless.

Speaker 3 (45:45):
Amen.

Speaker 1 (45:46):
And so we can eliminate fear by ascribing frail human
emotions to an almighty god we don't understand. Or we

(46:06):
can prepare for every single possible outcome, and we can
practice suffering every day, every day of our life. We
can practice doing things we don't like to do every day.

(46:28):
We can fast, we can skip a meal, we can
do a media fast. I can say, okay today, I'm
not going to go on social media one time today.
I'm not going to play any video games today. I'm
not going to drink any pop. I'm not going to
drink a morning cup of coffee. Every day, we can
do one thing that we don't want to do, and

(46:49):
we can get our flesh used to whining and complaining
and kicking against the goads, and we can teach the
flesh shut up. I'm in charge. We can do hard
things every day, even if they're dumb little things like
I'm not going to have my morning coffee, or I'm
going to go to the gym, you know, or I'm

(47:10):
going to make that phone call I'm dreading. If every
day we do a simple thing we don't want to do,
we will accumulate, over the course of our life, decades
and decades of mastering the flesh. And if in a
worse case scenario, we might have to face what tens

(47:31):
of thousands, hundreds of thousands of godly people had to
face before us, and that is dying for their faith,
being put in concentration camps, being tortured, seeing their family
members shot before their face. If the worst case scenario
happens and we too have to do that, we are

(47:56):
going to face it as someone who's spent our lives
telling the flesh, shut up, you can do this. You
can do this anytime you're at the gym. You can
do this anytime you're at the dentist. Anytime we face
something scary, instead of running away from it, we just
face it, and we face it consciously understanding that Jesus

(48:23):
Christ did that for us. And I know this seems melodramatic, Kyle,
but I honestly do this. Going back to the plank analogy,
there's things at the gym that I hate doing. Sometimes
it's hard even going to the gym because I can't
even face the thought that I've got to do that,
like that's on the agenda for the day. Right when
I'm in the midst of these things where it's more

(48:45):
reps than I can handle, or it's more weight than
I can handle, or it's the plank or whatever, I
legitimately go to a place in my mind where I
think of Jesus on that cross. He had no option
of getting off yep, and he was there for hours.

(49:06):
And I think, if I can't sit here for ninety seconds,
if I can't endure ninety seconds, what am I going
to do? Even if we get spared from all the
bowls of wrath and all the like, the really bad

(49:27):
stuff which I think we are going to be, Even
if let's let's just paint this scenario, Kyle, what if
what if the end of the world doesn't happen until
both you and I are dead? What if we don't
live to see that? But what if the United States
of America crumbles as a world power and we become

(49:49):
a third world country because of our disobedience and are
walking out of covenant and we aren't being possibility. I
do too. So let's say that we don't even have
to talk about FEMA camps and being tortured and martyrs
and getting our heads chopped off in guillotines. Like, let's
say we never face that, but all we face is

(50:11):
losing all of the economic freedoms and constitutional freedoms. What
if we become a socialistic country and we get moved
into smart cities and we're told every day how much
we can run our air conditioning, and we're told what

(50:32):
kind of cars to drive and how many miles a
day we can drive. We're not used to that. We
can't even handle that. And so how do we prepare
for the fact that, you know, we as Americans are
the Disney World on the map, right, we don't know

(50:53):
what it's like to go hungry. You know, there's a
verse in the Psalms as a pants for the water,
so my soul long it's after the How do we
know what depth of longing we should have for Jesus

(51:15):
if the metaphor the thing that we compare it to
is something we've never experienced. Have you ever been thirsty?
And I don't mean okay, we're at the gym when
we chug back water, I mean, have you ever gone
three days in a desert without water? We're all you're
thinking about is a drop of water on your tongue.
If we don't even know what it feels like to

(51:37):
be hungry or thirsty, how do we know if we
are meeting the biblical expectation for how deep our longing
for Christ is? We don't even know.

Speaker 3 (51:53):
Yeah, no, we're not prepared for the least bit of suffering.
I mean, I think we all got a really good
example this when we went through COVID. You know, not
to drag it back out of the closet, but I
think it's really relevant to what we're we're talking about,
because I mean, my gosh, people went psycho over toilet paper.
And it wasn't just the non Christians, okay. I mean
we watched churches that completely folded and shuttered doors and

(52:15):
completely kowtowed and told their parishioners that if they didn't,
you know, go get a vaccine, then they were horrible
people that were killing everyone. And I mean, look what
we did that was a I think for me, that
was an awakening point that really pushed my faith in
this whole process, This whole whole reason I'm doing what
I'm doing to another level was because my faith exponentially

(52:37):
grew as that was the first time in my life,
and I think for a lot of us kids that
grew up in the eighties. Man, we had a good
It was a good time, and my wife, yeah, it
was awesome on it. My wife and I have conversations
now where we look at each other and we're like,
I can't believe we're having these conversations about what is
happening now and what could be happening soon, because you

(53:01):
can see it coming. Whether that means that Christ's return
is five minutes away or fifty thousand years. To me,
I am fond of saying it doesn't matter, because the
mission never changes. We are to spread the gospel and
try to get that in front of as many people

(53:22):
as humanly possible. It is not our job to save anybody,
because that's free will. That's their choice. But that is
the great commission, right, that is what we are commissioned
with doing. And again, it doesn't matter five minutes or
fifty thousand years. The mission never changes. Now do I
have eschatological belief system based on what I read in
the Bible and my understanding? Well, sure I do. Hey,

(53:45):
if we wind up with something I like the fond
of say, if we wind up with some kind of
pre tribulation rapture, I like your version better than mine,
you know, because that's not where I land. But at
the end of the day, it shouldn't make any difference,
much to your point earlier, because the mission never changed. Yes,
and are we still prepared much to your point again
just a moment ago, Are we still prepared to fulfill

(54:07):
that mission and be faithful when someone takes our family
away from us, kills our children, breaks into our home
church that we're not supposed to have, and executes everyone
in the room in front of us because one by
one we failed to denounce our Lord and Savior. And
that's completely out of the realm for people in this

(54:30):
country to think of. But probably while we're talking today,
that scenario will have played out for one of our
brothers and sisters somewhere else in the world.

Speaker 1 (54:42):
Occupy till he comes more military jargon, right, occupy, What
is that? That's a military term. I'm going to say
something about the toilet paper you mentioned in hopes that
this will encourage because some people are going to reflect
on how they handled twenty twenty and they're gonna they're

(55:08):
going to feel like they could have should have done
things differently. So good news, bad news. You're going to
have a second chance and.

Speaker 3 (55:15):
The fourth probably.

Speaker 1 (55:17):
Yeah, So take twenty twenty as a litmus test for
how the church would probably react if the end times
all of a sudden broke loose. That was that was
a test run for the church as well, what what
did we do? Let let's evaluate what we did right
and what we did wrong. So when the when the

(55:41):
whole toilet paper scare came out, which was really very
much at the beginning, as luck would have it, we
were running out of toilet paper. We had like two
roles left in the house when that happened, and I
told my dad, Dad, let's do an expair. Let's put
God to the test, meaning not that we don't believe

(56:05):
and we want him to prove his existence, but meaning
it says all over in scripture not to worry about
what to eat or drink or where. It says that
He'll provide all of our needs. It says, not don't
worry about tomorrow. And there's all these things. Don't say
in today or tomorrow we will go into such and
such a town and buy toilet paper.

Speaker 3 (56:22):
You know today problems of its own believe is what
scripture says.

Speaker 1 (56:26):
Exactly. So I said today, I said, even though we're
going to be out of toilet paper pretty soon, and
I don't know how long this is going to go on,
let's not buy toilet paper because the only reason we're
buying it is out of fear. And I don't want
to be conditioned by the television and what it tells

(56:51):
me to do. And I don't. If I run out
right now and buy toilet paper because I want to
alleviate my fear, then the next thing they take away
from us, and the next thing they take away from us.
I mean, I'm going to have to continue if I'm
if I'm teaching myself that the only way I can
alleviate fear is if I fix my problem right now.

(57:13):
And so we ended up not buying toilet paper throughout
the entirety of that time that it was nowhere to
be found, and you know, it was like the widow's jar,
the toilet paper. No, not really, but it.

Speaker 3 (57:32):
Just keeps rolling and producing more ept.

Speaker 2 (57:37):
You know.

Speaker 1 (57:39):
I think actually the supply we had lasted until the
shelves were full of it again. But it it empowered
us that the next time the news came and said,
now there's not going to be any you know, dad,
or like whatever, we just we we didn't care because
it was like, if we run out of that, we'll
go without. Hey, if you run out of toilet paper,

(58:03):
you get the rag bag and you throw it in
the washing machine. I mean, women use cloth diapers for
zillions of years, you know, and so you adapt, and
you know, we just we have to learn to not
knee jerk and react to all of all of the fear.

(58:24):
And one thing I'm just going to suggest this will
be a little challenge for people, you know, when I
say to practice doing one hard thing a day, one
thing that utterly changed my life. I went through a season,
it was a good like five year season, and I
read tons and tons of missionary biographies. I couldn't get
enough of them. They were so inspiring, be fascinating. It

(58:49):
was fascinating, and man, they don't they don't build human
beings the way they used to. These these men and
women were resilient, they were fearless. They would be down
by mission agencies and they would go off on their
own and they would be being chased down in jungles,
and they would go days without eating, and they'd be
talking to people who don't speak their language and all

(59:11):
this stuff. But it really puts into perspective how much
love former generations had for the Gospel. There were socialites
who in their teens gave up their lush life in

(59:35):
England and went to India and the most barren places
in the hills of China, And it's a testament to
how much some people have loved the Gospel more than
their own lives and their conveniences. And so it is
extremely convicting and sobering. And I'm just going to challenge

(59:57):
people listening right now, you've got how much is left
of twenty twenty five, like four months, four and a
half months and thing like that at the time of
this recording.

Speaker 3 (01:00:07):
Crazy to think, but yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:00:10):
Read or listen to one missionary biography. It's life changing.

Speaker 3 (01:00:23):
Yeah, for sure. I would, you know. I was kind
of sitting here thinking and I wrote down something to
share as well. And you know, one of the things
that every house in America would be better served by
because one of the things that you know, I'm kind
of taking out of our conversation today is I don't
want it to be all doma gloom. I think you're
in the same boat of what can we do to

(01:00:43):
be better? Right, because it's like, well, we can sit
here and point our finger at the problem all day long,
but okay, so what are the solutions to the problem?
And I cannot encourage folks enough to do this. We've
started doing it in our home. Is shutting off the television.
Shut it off. Man. There's a reason why they say,
when there's an interruption, now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

(01:01:06):
You know, we put it right in there. They don't
hide and it is. It's fear mongering, and it's fear programming,
and a lot of it. If it's not fear programming,
it's satanic programming that's carefully and very very very intricately
disguised as not that. But shut the television off and
read a book. You know, make sure you're getting good
things to read. But there's a ton of stuff out

(01:01:28):
there that you can get your hands on. That will,
you know, grow you spiritually and emotionally, and you will
find that your mind is so much more at peace.
And the other thing too. Take it from me that
now has grown children. And my kids grew up in
the beginning of the age where you know, they had

(01:01:48):
a device in front of their face, practically out of
the womb. Here's an iPad. Don't do that. Take take
that away from your kids. You don't have to take
it all the way away, but I would, h I
encourage you to really severely limit daily the amount of
time that they spend on those devices, and be very
careful what they're spending their time on the device is doing.

(01:02:10):
But have them read a book or use their imagination
in some way. I feel like we were the last
generation that really had any good imagination in a lot
of ways, because we played outside and we did the things,
and we didn't have a television in front of our
face all the time. We didn't necessarily have all the
video games until the Nintendo, and then all of us

(01:02:30):
were ruined. You know Atari, If you're old like me,
you remember the Atari. But in television, yeah, in television, Okay,
there you go. Commodore sixty four. Baby, there you go
rocking the old school stuff. And it was fun and
it was awesome. But looking back, I can also see
where my parents didn't really know what they were walking into.

(01:02:51):
They didn't understand that they really should have probably limited
some of the time that I spent on those things.
I would have been better off for it. So if
you're a younger parent out there, you're a great parent.
I would encourage you to do that. And the other
thing too is, you know, part of my faith journey,
in my growth path has been to and I don't
like the term deconstructing faith because it also feels very
new agy and you know, I don't want to say that,

(01:03:14):
but evaluate things that you've been taught, you know, things
that you believe. Do you believe them because you've been
taught them and you've went in and you've verified God's
word for yourself, or have you actually gone and you
believe what you believe because when you read the word
of God, here's what it speaks and says to you, right,
and then you've verified that with other people, you know,
making sure that you're on the right path there. So,

(01:03:37):
because I think a lot of times One of the
things we have that we're really up against in the
church when it comes to these issues is we just
have people that have been spoon fed and they never
do any I was one of them. I speak from
personal experience being spoon fed my belief system and then
just going out there in marching and sharing my belief
system that I was taught and never verifying the word myself.

(01:03:58):
And honestly, I have found that a lot of the
things that I was taught were either incorrect or completely
fabricated completely, And so spend time in the Word of God.
Find whatever the fascination point for you is. For me,
it was nefhelo man. That was my That was my,
for lack of a better term, gateway drug, all right,
but it was the best drug.

Speaker 1 (01:04:18):
Right.

Speaker 3 (01:04:18):
It's God's God's God's serving, So that was my gateway
into understanding scripture. And He will honor that because what
you're doing as you're approaching him just like a little
child wanting to know more about your father. And He
used that to speak to me in my life and
guide me and still does. So. I would encourage everybody

(01:04:40):
to find whatever your fascination point is, because it's in
the Bible and start to use that as you as
you're launching off point and dive in.

Speaker 1 (01:04:47):
Yeah. Absolutely, I want to just say a word on
deconstruction as well, because it's getting more and more prevalent
in the Christian world, and it's it's devastating seeing the
Christian leaders, pastors, pastors, sons, Christian artists, musicians. It's devastating

(01:05:08):
seeing their testimonies crumble in front of the world. Talk
about have a kick, talk about them laughing at the
fortresses that we've built up. But I like to promote
constructive deconstruction. I had something happened similar Kyle. I didn't

(01:05:33):
know it was what was happening.

Speaker 3 (01:05:35):
But I didn't either. I had never heard the term
until I kind of had already started to do what
I just shared.

Speaker 1 (01:05:40):
Yep, same thing with me. In twenty thirteen, I started
questioning the things that I had learned, and I thought,
I want to find scripture and verse. I want to
find chapter and verse for these things that I believe.
And I was alarmed how many things were not there

(01:06:00):
at all, or it was a misunderstanding of the culture
or the context of the actual scripture, or it was
just being wittingly or unwittingly distorted, and how much of
it was just traditions of that denomination or traditions of

(01:06:21):
our culture even And what I learned is as I
was deconstructing my evangelical modern Christian Christianity, is that as
I pulled out more and more and more Jenga pieces,

(01:06:43):
my faith in God got more and more and more
honed in on, and He became greater and greater and
greater to me once all of this silliness had been
taken away from it. So I think that we have
to really be honest with our intentions. As there's two

(01:07:04):
different ways you can motives for deconstructing.

Speaker 3 (01:07:08):
Where you're going here.

Speaker 1 (01:07:09):
You can deconstruct because you smell a rat and you
want to know the biblical Jesus and you are going
to strip off all the fat and get down to
the bone. What is really required of me? Where does

(01:07:31):
freedom in Christ start and end? What does freedom in
Christ really mean? That type of deconstruction will lead you
on a path so narrow you'll have to turn sideways
the rest of your life to get to the finish line.

(01:07:52):
But the kind of deconstruction that isn't being honest is
my flesh wants something that God prohibits, and if I
can find a bunch of loopholes, yep, then I can
prove that this is a bunch of man made nonsense.

(01:08:15):
And if it's all man made nonsense, my flesh can
do what I want. So the difference is, I think
it's absolutely okay to deconstruct Evangelical American Christianity. But when
you start deconstructing the living, breathing word of God that
when all things pass away, his words will remain. When

(01:08:39):
you start deconstructing the only indestructible thing in the universe,
the words of God, and if you wind up at
the end of that deconstruction no longer believing the indestructible
words of God, you are in trouble.

Speaker 3 (01:08:59):
Yeah, big time, because you're going to slide further and
further down the path, and the more you give yourself
over to the enemy, the more you're going to be his,
and the harder it's going to be for you to
get out. Yep, yep, yeah, I completely agree with you.
The one image I had is, you know, while you're
sliding out the wood jinga God is replacing it with
iron beams. You know, that's that's exactly what's happening, is

(01:09:21):
you're you're building a firmer foundation.

Speaker 1 (01:09:23):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (01:09:24):
The other thing too, is that for me, being more
of a fiery personality, it's tempered that a lot in
me in a positive way, because you know, all of
our strengths are a double edged sword. It's always that
way with everybody, right, and it just matters which side
is sharper because of how you use it. And for me,
the side that it tempered for me is when someone

(01:09:45):
has an opposing viewpoint to what I staunchly believe in,
I don't get so fired up. Matter of fact, the
basis of this show. I have conversations with people all
the time who believe things. All of us are rooted
in the foundational belief system of salvation in Christ is
the only method and the only way to get to
Heaven right and the only way that you're going to
experience eternity on a positive side. But I have conversations

(01:10:11):
with people all the time who have belief systems, and
after having studied the Bible, it speaks to them differently
than me, and to be able to provide each other
some space for that where it's not so combative. I
think is really important, and that's really where we find
that iron sharpens iron. I recently had a conversation with

(01:10:32):
a younger pastor who had just kind of gotten out
of school, and I think a lot of the belief
system having gone through that process. Spiritual warfare is kind
of a foreign concept. We believe in a Sethite view
of Genesis sixty four. But what's happening is this particular

(01:10:54):
individual is experiencing spiritual warfare on a very real level,
and what they're seeing in front of them doesn't match
up with what they were taught. And so I think
that they're kind of going through a little bit of
a struggle point right now to go back and do
a positive deconstruction of what we were taught in order

(01:11:17):
to actually reevaluate spiritual warfare and the nature of it.
So we had a fascinating conversation. It literally went for
four hours. We didn't plan on this. Yeah, it was
awesome because you know, here, I've been just bathed and
steeped in this world now for probably the last four years,
two of which doing the show and having all these
amazing conversations, which is just iron, you know, sharpened me

(01:11:40):
as well, and hoping to help pass that along because
you know, if we can teach the younger generation properly,
how much more effective are we going to be as
a church. Because one of the things that I have
found is, you know, the tactic is to poison the

(01:12:01):
roots of the tree. You know, go after kids, poison,
poison the younger generation, go after the roots of the tree.
Because if you can kill the roots of the tree,
the whole tree dies. Right. You can go up and
chop on some of the branches, and yeah, you can
kill the tree that way, but the root system is
still intact. You know, it's a lot harder. But if
you poison the roots, tree is dead. And so doing
this with the younger generation, teaching them properly and combating

(01:12:24):
some of these things that are not correct clearly in
scripture that are really important, I think is really important
from the spiritual warfare perspective.

Speaker 1 (01:12:34):
Yeah, I've had the same experience. I mean, if you
knew me in college, anytime someone would go against you know,
one of the tenants of my faith, it was a fight,
I mean, and.

Speaker 3 (01:12:45):
Prepare for the dog fight.

Speaker 1 (01:12:47):
Oh my goodness, I look back on it now and
I just cringe. All these stupid theological debates where you're
screaming at each other. But one of the things that
really changed my ability to listen to other people who
are saying something different from me is I ask myself

(01:13:08):
the question, Okay, if they are right and I'm wrong,
what changes for me? Why would that be feared? Why
am I afraid of that being right? Like how would
my paradigm shift, or how would my salvation or my
relationship with God? Or how how would the Gospel be altered?

(01:13:33):
Ultimately if they were right and I was wrong? And
I really realized in now doing that for over twenty
years that a lot of the things that people bicker
over have nothing to do with the Gospel or salvation.

Speaker 3 (01:13:44):
It's all these others and winds up coming back to
a comfort.

Speaker 1 (01:13:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:13:47):
Yes, they're comfortable with whatever belief system they have, and
they don't want to leave the box exactly. It becomes
about them and not about God.

Speaker 1 (01:13:54):
Yes, so I the only hell I'm going to die
on at this point, especially now with all the quantum
intelligence and the Mendela effects and the fringy stuff and
the frequencies and the astral the only hill I'm going
to die on now is Jesus Christ is the son

(01:14:15):
of God. He's the Way, he's the truth, he's the life.
No one comes to the Father except through him. Now,
if someone is saying something that is a Galatians one
in fraction, this is a gospel that was not preached.
If someone is going to lose their soul because what
they believe is is not the gospel, I will argue

(01:14:42):
with them. Now, that doesn't mean I'm going to be
mean or nasty or condescending. I'll show them scriptures. But
that's really the only fight I want to fight these days.
I honestly absolutely have zero emotion when people talk about
eschatology or free will or what are some of the

(01:15:05):
buzzy things election, you know, some of the the doctrines
are prerastination.

Speaker 3 (01:15:12):
Yeah, all kinds.

Speaker 1 (01:15:13):
Of stuff, Like I don't I don't care, you know
what I know.

Speaker 3 (01:15:19):
I always laugh at all the all the man made
terms we've come up for all these different things too,
and how we've taken God's word and we've overcomplicated it.
And I know, and there's a lot of people that
do a lot of great work in this and I'm
not trying to discount that, but one of the one
of the terms that drives me the absolute most insane
is the term apologetics. It's like, what are we apologizing for? Man?

(01:15:40):
And I know that's not what it means. It means,
you know, being able to defend your faith to get it,
you know. But it's just one of those man made
things where it's like, I'm just you know, we get
into the weeds too much, and we do. I'm guilty
myself and this I will share a story of where
I'm guilty of this. Even within the last probably year
and a half year, year and a half, I got

(01:16:02):
so fired up one night over eschatological stuff over at
friend's house where we were having this wonderful, you know, discussion,
and they happen to be pre trip. I'm not. I'm
a different different system there, and I just started to
get so fired up and I had to apologize to
them the next week, you know, where I just I

(01:16:23):
had to kind of eat my crow pie and realized
that I was stupid. I was stupid, you know, and
I reverted back to some of the childish ways that
I had before I learned to strengthen my faith, and
you know, I shared with them how sorry I was,
and I hugged my brothers. It's all good now, you know,
water under the bridge. But you know, it was just silly.

(01:16:46):
It was a silly moment, and that's probably the single
greatest one where people get so fired up. The only
thing that with that that I challenged folks on sometimes
is the apathy. Much to your pointer here, don't let
the idea if you believe in a pre tribulation rapture,
you know, like you had said, prepare for the worst,

(01:17:08):
hope for the best, you know, don't let a spirit
of apathy set in where you just kind of lean
back in the saddle and you don't really go out there,
you don't share the word of God, and you're just
you kind of throw your hands up in the air
and go, well, I'm not going to be here for
any of it anyway. So that's for you guys to

(01:17:28):
figure out. When I'm when when when I get called home.
There's just a spirit of apathy that I fear sometimes
gets set in with that that I think we just
need to be careful of. Not not always, but but
I've seen it.

Speaker 1 (01:17:41):
No, no, absolutely well. And I often ponder the intent
behind the words in the Lord's prayer. Thy Kingdom Come.
When the Kingdom of Christ comes to this earth, it
will be World War three times a thousand. Jesus Christ

(01:18:04):
is not going to penetrate this dimension and make his
godhood known without a war breaking out. So if we're
going to pray Thy Kingdom come, but then throw up
our hands and resist it when it looks like the
signs are all there and he's coming soon. If we

(01:18:26):
think he's coming soon, we should be screaming and doing
cartwheels and blowing little party blowers. And Paul longed to
be on the earth when that happened. I want to
see Jesus flashing from east to west and coming in
the sky, and it'll like and there's something sort of

(01:18:47):
revealing about not wanting to see that. I'd like to
see it without suffering, you know what I mean?

Speaker 3 (01:19:01):
Like, right, Yeah, I say I like their version better
than mine because mine involves suffering.

Speaker 1 (01:19:07):
I know, I know, right, But but yeah, I think
that there is a double mindedness behind saying maranatha. Okay,
if the only time you're saying maranatha is when you're
going through a trial, or you're stressed out, or you've
lost your job or your boyfriend dumped you, or your

(01:19:27):
marriage is going hard. If the only time you say
Maranatha is when someone you love got cancer, or you
don't want to face getting old, or if the only
time we want Jesus to come back is to relieve
us from something uncomfortable or difficult, that's not the same
thing as Maranatha. Jesus, establish your kingdom on earth, vanquish sin,

(01:19:52):
take everything evil and disgusting and gross and murderous, and
wipe it off of the face of the earth. I
long for purity. I long to have my heart purified.
I want my resurrection body. I'm sick of being double
minded and sinful and fleshly and worldly. Jesus like, come

(01:20:14):
and fix everything we can't pray Thy Kingdom come, and
then flip on CNN and freak out because it looks
like he's coming. What do you want? Which one?

Speaker 3 (01:20:31):
Yep, I agree with you. I call it toque tourniquet Jesus,
tourniquet God. That's exactly how I was for years. You know,
I grew up in the church. As a matter of fact,
you know I've said before in the show writing a book,
and this is one of the things I get into
with my own upbringing. And if people can learn from
my own mistakes, then i'm you know, better for it.
I can prevent somebody else from walking a similar dangerous

(01:20:52):
path as me. But that's how I treated God for years.
God was the tourniquet that I grabbed four in the
drawer when i'd get shot up and won a life's
battles and I'm bleeding out right, and so then I
would apply the tourniquet to the wounds and a desperate
attempt to save me, Save me, God, save me, Save me, Jesus.
And then the minute that they would, I would just
take the tourniquet off and throw it back in the

(01:21:14):
drawer and go, Okay, thanks, I got it now. And
that was my relationship with them for a long time.
And you know, I'm just thankful that ultimately God didn't
pren me off during that time frame. And about forty
was when I started to finally, you know, waken a
little bit. Right around that timeframe, about forty years old, roughly.

Speaker 1 (01:21:34):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (01:21:35):
And you know, once you once you start to live
a life and you start to actually have works. Now,
I'm going to stop here because this is another one
where the church gets into a fistfight over the concept
of works. We need to understand what that means. Works
not from a means of salvation. You cannot work your

(01:21:55):
way into the kingdom. It is not going to happen.
The only way to the kingdom, as Vicky said a
second ago, with the verse speaks very clearly, I am
the way, the truth in the life. No one gets
to the Father except through me. Period end of story,
Close the chapter, close the book. But what works does

(01:22:15):
and I am a living testament to this in my
own life. Works actually breathes life into your salvation, into
your faith. Salvation should be the beginning of your journey,
not the end of it. Because if you just lean
back in the saddle again and go, Okay, I had
a sincere moment, I'm saved, and then you do nothing
to advance the kingdom. After that, you do nothing to

(01:22:39):
strengthen yourself and go to the gym, which is your
Bible right, and actually use your giftings that God gave
you for advancement of his kingdom. You are going to
have a very hollow and empty faith and you're going
to find a lot of problems at your doorstep.

Speaker 1 (01:22:57):
Yeah, yeah, you know. You can look at it. Life.
You can have a slave, you can have a paid
servant like a maid that you pay an income to,
or you can have a like a spouse. So let's
let's let's do this analogy. In all three cases, you've
got someone who are performing duties around the home. They're

(01:23:18):
washing floors, they're cooking, they're cleaning. Okay, with the slave,
they're doing it because they're being forced. With a paid servant,
they're doing it in exchange for a wage. A spouse
is doing it out of the overflow of love and
wanting to please that spouse. Because the happier the spouse is,

(01:23:43):
the happier they are. It works together. So to say,
once you have entered into a bride bridegroom relationship with
Jesus Christ, to begrudge doing things for him. Uh, we're

(01:24:04):
like you said, we're not doing it. We're not being forced.
We're not slaves. He's a gentleman. Behold, I stand at
the door and knock if anyone answers. He doesn't barge in,
he doesn't break in. He's not a robber. If we
have come into a covenant with him, and we have
died to the flesh and now we're living in the spirit,

(01:24:24):
and we're living in Christ. We aren't even going to
think about whether we're doing works or not. Out of
the overflow of that, we're being sanctified, we're being made new,
We're we're doing these things out of an absolute desire
to please Him.

Speaker 3 (01:24:43):
Amen.

Speaker 1 (01:24:44):
So I agree with the whole the whole works thing.
Justification is is wrought by God. There's nothing we can
do to earn that or have it taken from us.
But once that justification has taken place, we spend the
rest of our lives developing the fruits of the spirit

(01:25:07):
and doing things to please them.

Speaker 3 (01:25:10):
Yeah, one of the things I think we're woefully again
going back to the church, and this is something we're again.
You can step in, you can do this. You can
make a difference here, huge difference. If you're a mature
Christian and you're listening to this, please mentor someone, please
mentor a newer, younger brother or sister. And I would
recommend that men actually take men under their wing and

(01:25:32):
women take women under their wing. I think that's probably
the best way to do that. But please, let we
are so we are losing so many brothers and sisters
that have a sincere desire to turn their life over
to Christ fall away because there is no mentorship after
the moment we have the moment we hand them the Bible,

(01:25:56):
we dunk them, we pat them on the head, we
dry them off, and then we go, Okay, see you
next Sunday. And that is not going to produce much.
And it doesn't produce much. That's why we have churches closing.
That's why we have weakness in the Church of many reasons,
but a big part of it, and that is really

(01:26:16):
a huge struggle point in the church.

Speaker 1 (01:26:20):
Yeah, I agree, and we need bold mentors and I
don't mean loud, aggressive, judgmental, but we have to be
able to say the hard things when they come up,
when the unbiblical things are being spoken, or they're still
living in sin. And you know, we have to understand

(01:26:41):
that God doesn't take care of everything overnight. And sometimes
what you would prioritize is the most important thing might
not be what the Holy Spirit's prioritizing that person's life.
But there's going to have to be hard conversations. Truth
is truth, and when you're guiding someone who doesn't know

(01:27:04):
the Word of God, it really is important to be
an iron sharpening iron type of a mentor.

Speaker 3 (01:27:14):
Yeah, now, we don't understand that either. As a church.
On how to handle conflict, it's a huge, huge issue
in the church on how to handle conflict, and that's
why we have you know, the church is going sideway
is a huge part of that. While we've had the
fracture in the Methodist Church right now is because we've
allowed sin to get in the doorway, right we haven't
stood up and said no, that's absolutely not going to happen.

(01:27:35):
We are called to handle our fellow brothers and sisters
much more directly than the world. We're supposed to handle
the world with kid gloves because they don't know any better.
Fellow brothers and sisters who profess to know Jesus Christ
and profess to follow Jesus Christ should know better. And
if they refuse to do better, then, you know, we

(01:27:56):
have to have tough conversations. And if we have those
tough conversations and they continue to willfully, you know, operate
in an unrepentant manner, we're called to kick them out
of the church. We don't. We don't like to say
that because people just are aghast at that, like, how
could you how could you deliberately kick them out of
the church. And I'm like, well, go read Corinthians man.

(01:28:17):
I'm like, that's exactly what Paul is saying in there.
I mean, Christ even talks about how to handle conflict
among brothers and sisters. But and there's a difference between
struggling with something and complete unrepentance. Yes, right, willful will
I guess willful unrepentance is a completely different issue. Right.
If if I want to just live a life, I

(01:28:37):
want to have my cake and eat it too. I'm sorry,
that's not how this works. And you're leading others astray
if we continue to allow you to do that in
front of everybody in their midst, how are we going
to lead other new brothers and sisters on a proper
path if we're allowing you to continue with this huge
sin that's undealt with in your life, and you definitely
don't need to be in leadership. I mean, like, that's
that should be a complete no brainer. But unfortunately we

(01:29:00):
have no brains sometimes when it comes to how we
operate in the church, and that's why we have what
we have.

Speaker 1 (01:29:06):
It's so true. So you know works you mentioned Works
is sort of misunderstood. That's another hot button word is
the judge. And what do we hear all the time
every day like don't judge me, You're not my judge.
You know all this kind of stuff. If you actually
do a word study and you pick out every verse
in the Bible that talks about judging, Just like you.

Speaker 3 (01:29:29):
Said, there's a lot.

Speaker 1 (01:29:31):
There are groups of people that Christians are called to judge.
So if someone comes to me and says, don't judge me,
I would say, do you consider yourself to be a
professing born again believer?

Speaker 3 (01:29:43):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:29:43):
And if they if they say yes, then I'll say
it is biblical to judge you. The word of God.
One of the things, one of the things that the
Book of Timothy tells us that the book that the
Word of God is designed to do is to judge.
That's right, and so it's what the Word of God
is there for in one respect. And so now is
there a right and a wrong way to do it? Yeah?

(01:30:06):
Is there a condescending, holier than now way to do it? Yes?
But if someone is is in sin and you lovingly
point out biblically and they have a strong visceral reaction
to that, that's on them.

Speaker 3 (01:30:23):
That's right.

Speaker 1 (01:30:23):
We have done what we're supposed to do. And that
comes then back down to fear of man, which is
a sir.

Speaker 3 (01:30:30):
Yeah, I fear not the one who could take your life.
You're the one who can take your soul. You know,
we ultimately answered, I don't work for man. I work
for God. And you know, if you're going to get
mad at me, I'm sorry about that. You know. Again,
if I've done things properly, and I've done it in
a loving way, right, albeit a direct way, but a

(01:30:51):
loving way, and I haven't done anything that's been outside
of God's purview in my redirection of whatever sin, you know,
then that's on the person. Much to your point, the
other one that we love to get out of the
drawer and we love to smash everybody in the head with.
And the other one that we use is a crutch
because this happens a lot because people naturally don't want
to engage in conflict, right. Conflict. Conflict stinks, And if

(01:31:13):
you like conflict, then you're a jerk, right, and nobody
wants to be around you anyway. But natural conflict is
going to occur. It's just it's it's inevitable when you
have people involved. And one of the things that we
do is we like to crutch on the idea of well,
I'm just supposed to love everyone, love unconditionally, never address

(01:31:33):
the sin. And the other one that they love to
get out is, you know, how can you remove the
speck of sawdust from your friend's eye when you have
the plank sticking out of your own And we take
that whole thing out of context, you know, and a
lot of you know, do not judge or you two
will be judged what the proper context of that versus like,

(01:31:55):
if you are struggling with pornography, you can't go to
your fellow brother and go, hey, you're struggling with pornography.
You really need to quit doing that. You have a
huge plank sticking out of your eye. So it's a
matter of hypocrisy, not a matter of being sinless right
or without flaw, I guess is really a better way
to put it. You know. Of course we're supposed to

(01:32:16):
address things with one another, but if you've got your
own houses in disorder, you know, then clean it up
and then you can help, you know, your brother's sister
do the same. That's what that's talking about.

Speaker 1 (01:32:27):
Yeah, well, and we've made judgment such a cussword. And
if you really look at it in its judiciary sense,
all a judge is doing is looking at the law
and telling you whether you've kept it or you haven't.

Speaker 3 (01:32:46):
Yeah, there's a reason why there's a book called Judges.

Speaker 1 (01:32:49):
So when we look at when we look at scripture,
you're either following it or you're not. And so to
simply point out this behavior has a direct correlation in scripture,
you're not supposed to do it. And if you do it,
these are the consequences. Because I love you, I don't

(01:33:10):
want you to suffer these consequences. So just making a
judiciary statement of whether or not someone has kept a
law or not kept a law, it should not be
that controversial.

Speaker 3 (01:33:22):
No, it's really not. But it has. It's been a
carefully designed tactic by the enemy to destroy us from within.
You know, when I look at history, and I'd love
to hear your take on this too. You know, I
don't know how far into the weeds because I'm a nerd,
so I've gone with this. But one of the thing
that seems to me is from the minute that things

(01:33:45):
happened in the garden when it came to spiritual warfare,
Satan knew from that moment, Okay, it's on. I know
that you're going to produce something through man's lineage that
is going to defeat me along the way. So I
have to snuff that out every chance I can, I
any opportunity I can. I got to get rid of it.
And murder was the weapon of choice for a long time.

(01:34:06):
But then when Christ died on the cross, that completely
changed because now I've failed, I can't do that anymore.
So now I have to change tactics, and the Satans
tactic changed to corruption of the church. It took a
little while because murder was still the first on the
agenda until about three hundred a d. When there was

(01:34:28):
a change, because as you said earlier, and as we
can see throughout the world, the church dies in prosperity
but grows in persecution. And so as the persecution and
the murder continues, the church thrives right. And this goes
on for three hundred years, and then Constantine comes along

(01:34:49):
and everything flips over and we stop persecuting the church,
and we can almost instantly see the corruption start to begin.
And so ever since that time, murder is still used tactic,
but corruption and lying and deceit and half truths have
been much more useful tactics and probably have done much
much more damage. And I think that's exactly what we

(01:35:13):
have going on today in the church.

Speaker 1 (01:35:15):
Yeah, it goes from the literal to the figurative. Now
let's kill their soul.

Speaker 3 (01:35:21):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I have I have one final question
for you, because I want to be respectful of your time,
and this is going to go back to a little
bit of the early part of our conversation, but it's
just a fascinating question that I want to see if
you have drawn a similar correlation to me, or if
I'm just kind of off on the moon. Do you

(01:35:41):
find that people that suffer from demonic attack, whether that's
sleep paralysis or whatever the case is, do you find
that some people are more prone than others and the
reason for that is because they're more naturally spiritually attuned
than other people.

Speaker 1 (01:36:00):
Yeah, so specifically with the sleep paralysis the dream warfare,
because there's many different tactics. It's not just sleep paralysis.
It can be night teares, it can be astral abductions,
it can be out of body experiences, and now you've
got all of the new stuff, you know, the reality shifting,
the back rooms, them all world, all that stuff. Right.

(01:36:22):
So the people that tend to be pulled into that
at a very very very young age and suffer from
it for decades or a greater portion of their life,
there usually are there's like an m for the particular
people that get targeted for that. You're almost always going

(01:36:47):
to see some sort of dramatic childhood trauma, yea. And
it doesn't just have to be abuse or ritual abuse.
It can be the death of a parent, being given
up for adoption. It could be your high burning down
as a kid and losing all your stuffed animals and
your toys, you know, like something traumatic in the mind
of a child. It can be a whole bunch of

(01:37:08):
medical procedures, being sick, you know, that kind of a thing.
You're going to see that pretty much across the board.
In other cases, you're going to see that these people,
whether they know it or not, are of a particular bloodline.
You are going to potentially see generations of witchcraft or

(01:37:31):
generational satanism. You're going to see high ranking military officials.
You're going to see secret society, memberships in the ancestry,
vows and covenants that were made generations before that, unless
identified and broken, are going to continue to pass on
through the generations. So you see all that kind of stuff. Now,

(01:37:53):
where Christians get into trouble with all of the presumption
is that if you tell the average Christian or pastor
that you've had sleep paralysis your whole life and demons
are attacking you and sexually assaulting you and all this stuff,
they will naturally assume that you're under attack because you're

(01:38:15):
sitting duck and you've opened doors and you've you know whatever.
But what I have seen, and it's not a large percentage,
Kyle and I always like to forewarn people, we all
want to be the one job in a sea of peters, right,

(01:38:37):
we all want to be the one that's suffering because
we're so righteous that Satan just wants to, you know,
make sport of us. The fact of the matter is
that there is a small percentage of people that I
talk to who are very tormented, and they are some

(01:38:59):
of the most faithful, godly, biblical sojournals I've ever met.
They're not for this world. They are people of whom
the world is not worthy. And I do think that
sometimes when you've got someone leaning that far into the

(01:39:26):
bosom of Christ, they're going to be more hated than
the average lukewarm, purewarmer.

Speaker 3 (01:39:37):
That was me for years.

Speaker 1 (01:39:39):
Another thing that I am seeing is because the Church
has not been teaching and training up the generations in
spiritual warfare. What's happening is I think that God is
raising up an army if we get to the end,
if we need an end times r me, then we

(01:40:01):
need to get to a place where an army is
raised up. How are how is Christ going to have
an army prepared to face these returning fearful sights, these monsters,
these these entities, the Nunaki, with the nepheline, whatever you

(01:40:25):
want to call it. How are we going to have
people prepared, boots on the ground, ready to go to
fight that war if we're not teaching it in the church.
So what's happening is I think in some cases, and
again check yourself, not everybody who's continuously having sleep paralysis,

(01:40:46):
it's because they're a job. You might have an open door.
But I am seeing, especially among young young men that
contact me that was wh that they realize it or not,
they're being trained for war, and because they can't learn
it in the church, and because they don't have mentors

(01:41:07):
and they're not being discipled, they are learning warfare in
the dreamscape.

Speaker 2 (01:41:15):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (01:41:15):
It's like a job training is not the way to go.

Speaker 1 (01:41:18):
It's a war simulator.

Speaker 3 (01:41:20):
Yeah. Wow. I asked that question because it just seems
like a lot of the people I've spoken to on
this show over time, and even in my own experience
with my own mom and my wife, which you know
you've met, they are very naturally gifted and attuned to
the spiritual and it just seems like the higher you're

(01:41:42):
natural gifting there, the more you're turned up towards the
ten side, the more that gateway is open for either
good or bad to pass through. If that makes sense.

Speaker 1 (01:41:53):
It makes total sense, and I see it all the time,
And in fact, Kyle, I used to struggle with it
because so many people that contact me that have all
the bad stuff, all the sleep paralysis and all this,
they also have these wonderful, biblical like visions and they
have prophetic abilities, or they have the ability to interpret dreams,

(01:42:16):
or they see angels and all this stuff, And I
don't get any of that. So I've thought for a while,
I'm like, I'm just a dud man, Like when if
I go to sleep, I'm getting attacked, Like I'm not
getting all this nice stuff. But what I realize is
that my spiritual giftings are they're cloaked and other things,

(01:42:40):
so they're not noticed. If you're looking for all the
exciting things, you're not going to see it in me.
But I have noticed, like I used to always think, oh,
I don't have discernment, Like when someone walks into the room,
I don't. I can't tell right away they're a Satanist,
They're a troll, you know, like all this stuff like,
and I know people that have that ability they can
if I'm out, like immediately. But it took me a

(01:43:03):
long time to notice it because I was looking for
that gift to look the same way in every single person.
And what I have noticed, and the enemy has spent
a good deal of my life convincing me that this
isn't a gift. This is actually evidence that you're a jerk.

(01:43:24):
When certain people walk into the room, I will have
an instantaneous, very very visceral reaction, but it's usually extreme
irritation or dislike, and it doesn't happen often, but when
it happens, it's over the top. And what I've found

(01:43:46):
out through the years is what I'm interpreting as irritation
or anger or dislike or judgment is actually my spirit
absolutely reacting to this person is dangerous, and so I
think that I probably have more of these things than

(01:44:08):
I realize. But I will be the first to admit,
on a mental and a spiritual and a physical level,
I am the most unlike, non self aware person you've
ever met in your life. Like everything goes over my head.
People will tell me after something's happened, like did you
see that? And did you hear this? And do what what? Like,

(01:44:29):
I am just not I'm not very in tune even
with with myself sometimes. So I think that there's some
of that stuff there, because I think that everyone who
truly is walking in covenant with Jesus Christ will have
discernment and they will have spiritual gifts, but it doesn't
necessarily mean we are quick to recognize what they are.

Speaker 3 (01:44:52):
Yeah, I think that that's another thing that the church
is obviously lacking, is the focusing on spiritual giftings, because
obviously it's kind of a byproduct of fo you know,
not focusing on the spiritual side of things at all anyway,
So why would they focus on giftings a matter of fact,
you know, I think for our generation and probably our
parents and grandparents, you know, we were taught and I

(01:45:12):
think this still remains today that it was almost if
you dared to even tread into that world at all,
then you're going to wind up just in the hands
of the enemy, and it's all witchcraft, and you're going
to just wind up being a crazy you know, Satan
worshiper and all these things, which is is hilarious because
it's completely contrary to the Bible, right, and it's just
completely contrary. I mean, Paul talks about spiritual giftings for

(01:45:35):
a reason, you know, and how to properly use them,
and that's just an area where I've seen in my
own life and my own direct experience. My wife is
very similar to you in that regard. She will get
an instant kind of ping on the radar, right, there's
just something that is pike, you know, spiking the needle

(01:45:55):
for whatever reason on a person, and she'll tend to
dismiss herself because she feels like she's being judgmental, yes,
which is natural feeling, right, you have the person hasn't
necessarily provided you anything to give that feedback necessarily, But
you know, she's finding more and more that she's been
right more than she's been wrong. It may take a
while for it to reveal itself, yes, but she's dead

(01:46:18):
on so exactly. I lack that. So I lean on
her a lot there, and I'm like, what's your vibe here?
And it's awesome because we're very you know, awesome when
it comes to that puzzle pieces fitting together. I'm strong
in areas that she's not, and she's strong in areas
that I'm not. So that's a beautiful thing that God's
done there. But yeah, I just was curious because I've
seen that in my own life.

Speaker 1 (01:46:39):
Definitely, And I just wanted to delineate really quickly here too,
because this is a place where I think scriptures are
are misunderstood. There are scriptures that tell us to expose
the deeds of the devil, and we can't expose what
we're ignorant of. And Ezekiel chapter eight really good example.

(01:47:00):
Ezekiel was ignorant of what was going on inside and
outside of the temple, and he had to be taken
up in the spirit and brought to the temple and
shown the women weeping for Tamus on the steps, and
he was taken behind the walls and underground in that
temple and shown the rituals and the things that were
going on. So in order to expose where Israel was

(01:47:26):
at by way of walking in covenant, Ezekiel had to
be shown what they were doing. Now there's a verse
that says that we shouldn't even talk about what evil
people do in private, And so now we've got this
gray area of what about all of these YouTube channels

(01:47:50):
and news shows and all news shows that talk about
trafficking and adrenochrome and all this horrible stuff ritual abuse
is isn't that an infraction of this verse where we
are not supposed to talk about what the wick could
do in private? And can people get so deep down
those rabbit holes that they get titillated with it or

(01:48:11):
they get intrigued, or they become desensitized to it. Yes,
there are dangers in going down some of those rabbit
holes if the Lord hasn't called you to do it,
and there's not a purpose in doing it. But I
think what's different about understanding, like not perishing for lack

(01:48:33):
of knowledge, understanding how evil the world really is so
that you can expose it and that you can inform
your church, so the intercessors will get on it and
the fasters will get on it. That's different than sitting
around and going, oh, my gosh, did you hear about
what Hollywood a lister a did and oh my goodness,

(01:48:54):
oh yeah, exactly, and where you are vicariously getting some
sort of enjoyment out of that, or pleasure or ar
titillation out of it. And so I think that we
have to be careful that when God has called certain
people into deliverance ministries, or I believe that there are

(01:49:17):
young men full of zeal, there are men like Phineas
that God is raising up to actually go into the
woods and prayerfully desern where there are principalities and where
there are ancient Canaanite altars, and they're being called to

(01:49:39):
break these strongholds. But I don't think that that means
every single guy who thinks Bigfoot is cool should be
taking camping trips into the woods. And so we really
have to make room for the fact that there are
people that God is raising up to do some of

(01:50:00):
this more fringy work. And so just because you're not
called to something or you couldn't handle it, like Kyle
Good example, not everybody has the stomach to read books
written by survivors of satanic ritual abuse. And it would

(01:50:21):
break the average Christian to read those details. It would
mortify them. But there are Christians that are called to
do it. And they're also the Christians that are called
to go into those dark places and rescue those people
and to pray for them and to help them integrate
their dissociative altars and things like that. And so this

(01:50:45):
is just an area where we have to understand that
some people are called to dance around the fringes of
these darker places, and it doesn't mean that they're being
titillated by it. Uh, Somebody's got to do some of
these places, like, there are people out there to be rescued,

(01:51:08):
and somebody's got to do it, and God does call
up people to do it. So, going back to your
question about the sleep paralysis church, Christians, pastors, there are
people in your congregation that are being hounded, hunted, and

(01:51:28):
harassed by demonic forces and it's not because they have
a pornography addiction. It's because they're being raised up and
that when when the fullness of their training comes into fruition,
they're going to be used to defeat the devil. Yeah,

(01:51:49):
we need to stop putting the scarlet letters on everybody
that is in this field.

Speaker 3 (01:51:55):
Amen. Well, my friend, I know you got to run,
so I just want to throw this up there early quick.
If you'd like to support Vicky, please get a copy
of her book They Only Come Out at Night. You
can find that over her web site Vickyjoy Anderson dot com.
You can also find it on our website the word
at ormedia dot com. Either place. Please take that, pick
it up. You will not regret it as a fantastic read. Vicky,

(01:52:18):
Thank you so much anytime. The other thing, too, is
if you enjoy this conversation today and you want to
listen to more with Vicky Joy, check out our original conversation.
You're going to see that pop up on your screen,
which is actually titled the same as her book, They
Only Come Out at Night, and you'll find out more information,
specifically on the topic of sleep paralysis. So with that,

(01:52:40):
until we meet again, stay frosty

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}REconstructing The Faith | Defeating Bad Doctrine & Understanding Spiritual Warfare