Unveiling The Shroud of Turin | The Burial Cloth of Christ [UNARCHIVED] - The Word At War

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
I was actually sat in the medwall when I first
came across the shroud touring, and I was just struck
by the image of the face. It didn't look like
an artwork. It looked like a real image. I just
remember reading A lot of people thought it was Leonardo
da Vinchet, so I just assumed, you know, that was that.
But I kept coming back to the image because I
took the magazine.

Speaker 2 (00:23):
Home with me.

Speaker 1 (00:23):
I went through a really rough patch in my life. Actually,
I'm just feeling really damn. I had jos A Clear
playing on him background and it was a song called
Silent And as this song was playing, the magazine just
dropped on the floor and it had opened up to
the actual face of Jesus on the shroud churing. I
just had this flood of emotions, and it's like Jesus
just gave me this desire for the lost. I just

(00:46):
felt his love, his compassion, which I had never felt
for and it just took my situation and just made
it completely irrelevant because I saw this love for what
Jesus had for the lost, and I just burst into tears.

Speaker 3 (01:09):
Well, hello, and welcome to the Tinfoil Hat Club. I'm Kyle,
and I'm Ben and thank you for joining us yet again. Well,
it is a special day on the Foil. Today we
have not one, but two guests, but one topic. So
I've been looking forward to this one for a while,
so me too. This one's a fascinating discussion. We're going

(01:29):
to discuss today the Shroud of Teren. So some of
you may know what that is and some of you
may not, but we're going to get into that today
because it is the burial cloth, or the supposed burial
cloth that we read about in the Bible that Jesus
was wrapped in, and so we're going to get into
this today. We're going to talk about the evidence that
people have tried to present that says it's not and

(01:51):
then a lot of the evidence that points to the
fact that it very well could be Christ's burial cloth.

Speaker 4 (01:57):
But joining us.

Speaker 3 (01:57):
Today our special guest, we have both Tony Kunlift and
he is actually a Christian author and speaker and he's
very enthusiastic about the shroud and he has some a
booklet actually that he's put together, an ebook that he's
put together on the shroud. He was kind enough to
send me a copy of that which is a phenomenal.

(02:17):
And then he also has some printed literature that would
be the same. And I guess we'll just kind of
cover it. Now. What is a good website, Tony for
them to actually go to to get that information?

Speaker 2 (02:29):
Don't know whether you can say it's on the screen.

Speaker 3 (02:31):
That yeah, yeah, that's great. So Tony dashcunlift dot square
dot site. And we will include that information too when
we actually put this out for everybody, so they'll have
an opportunity to get that. So perfect and also joining us,
you guys might have seen some stuff about this gentleman.
I think on TikTok would probably be his biggest platform,
but he's out there on all kinds of stuff Facebook, TikTok,

(02:53):
YouTube and probably everything else into the sun. It is
actually Paul Hanson, So Paul, thanks so much.

Speaker 2 (03:01):
Man.

Speaker 3 (03:01):
I appreciate you guys both joining us today and looking
forward to this conversation. Man.

Speaker 1 (03:08):
Yeah, look, so let's it.

Speaker 3 (03:09):
Yes, yeah, so people want to find you, what's the
best place that you would like to send them to.

Speaker 1 (03:14):
It's probably TikTok, but I'm mainly on Facebook, YouTube, TikTok,
and YouTube. Yeah, I've only got about ten thousand subscribers
on YouTube, but on TikTok it's like over seventy thousand.

Speaker 3 (03:29):
Wow, there's a part of me right now that wants
to tell you to shut up.

Speaker 4 (03:34):
Yea, No, that's awesome, brother, that is awesome. That's awesome.
Yeah it is. Man.

Speaker 3 (03:40):
That's a lot of eyes that are going to get
on your stuff that will help lead people to Christ,
because obviously all these discussions really revolve around leading people
to Christ, right, That's what matters. All right, So we
kind of talked about everything before we hit record, and
I guess for those that do not know what the
Shroud of Terrain is, let's start there, and let's just
start a little bit with you guys, and whoever wants

(04:00):
to go first, and how long you've kind of been
digging into this and what the shroud is. So I'll
let you guys kick it off.

Speaker 2 (04:07):
Whoever wants to go, Well, if I can maybe just
tell you my backstory of how I got involved in
the Shroud, it's not that long ago actually, and it
all started on a Sunday morning. I was out for
a walk with a close friend of mine called David,
and the conversation went something like this. He told me

(04:30):
that on the previous Friday he'd been to an atheist convention,
and the atheist convention was entitled the Evidence that there
Is No God, and David been a very sort of well,
he's an intellectual, no doubt. He thought he'd go along
to check out what the evidence was that there is
no God, and he wasn't very impressed by what he

(04:51):
kept found. And also he felt that a lot of
the presenters weren't very complimentary about religion beliefs, and in
particular Christianity, and in fact, one speaker said, believing in
Christianity is a bit like believing that these leprecorns or
fairies at the bottom of your guard. And David thought

(05:12):
to himself and he thought, well, how can they prove
that there aren't any fairies or leprechorns at the bottom
of my guard? And then almost instantaneously he said to me, Tony,
have you ever heard of the Shroud of Churin? And
when I thought for a moment, now you know, I've
been a Christian all my life and actually was brought

(05:33):
up in the Catholic Church, but when I look back,
I didn't really know that much about it. And he
told me about this faint image on this mysterious cloth
that science just couldn't prove how it got there. And
he talked to me about some radiation experiments that he'd
seen on a YouTube channel some time ago. And I

(05:54):
know it sounds a bit corny, but that's really what
sparked my interest in the Shroud of Churin. And one
of the things that struck me straight away was I
imagined or remembered the shroud to be a face image,
which is something that Paul will no doubt be focusing
on later on as he tells us about his work.

(06:17):
And I actually had that in mind, really, but one
of the first things I found out about it is
the cloth is around about fourteen foot long by three
foot nearly four foot wide, and that really surprised me
straight away that that's what it was. And as you
said before, that there are many people out there that

(06:40):
believed that the Shroud of Turin is the actual burial
cloth of Jesus from the Bibe. But as we're as
we I think we're going to allude to as well,
there's been a lot of controversy over the years about it, really,
so I think the first thing to say is that
it's a very It was a very expensive piece of

(07:03):
cloth that now resides clearly in the Saint John's Chapel insuring.

Speaker 3 (07:10):
Yeah, Paul, go right ahead and give us kind of
how you got on this train.

Speaker 1 (07:14):
Yeah. So I was actually sat in meadow Wall when
I first came across the shower turin Meadowall is in Sheffield.
It's like a shopping complex. I don't know what they
call them, mobab urine. But I just sat there and yeah, well, yeah,
so I've got it from the news agency and I

(07:38):
just sat there reading it while I was just having
my dinner, and I was just struck by the image
of the face. I mean, to me, it looked it
didn't look like an artwork. It looked like a real image,
looked like someone had just taken a photograph. And I
just remember reading it that it you know, a lot
of people thought it was Leonardo da Vinci, so I

(08:00):
so I just assumed, you know that that was that. Yeah,
we know that was it. It's done. So I just
left left it at that. But I kept coming back
to the image because I took the magazine on with
me and I went through a really rough patch in
my life. Actually, I just split up with a girlfriend,
so what kind of light? I was feeling a bit suicidal. Actually,

(08:27):
I had some suicidal toes. I didn't actually go out
and try it or attempt it or anything like that,
but I just feeling really damn And the funny thing
was I had Josh Claire playing on him background, and
it was a song called Silence by Joseh Clare and
this song was playing on and as this song was playing,
the magazine just dropped on the floor and it had

(08:48):
opened up to the actual face of of Jesus, you know,
the face on the shroud of chewing. And I can't
describe what happened next because it was just like overwhelming
the feelings and everything. It were like at that point,
I just knew because the in the song it was
saying where are you as opposed to asking God the

(09:12):
question and the actual song were playing, and I just
had this flood of emotions and it's like Jesus just
gave me this, this you know, desire for the lost.
So I just felt his love, this compassion which I

(09:33):
had never felt for and it just took took my
situation and just made it completely irrelevant because I saw
you know, this love for what Jesus had for the lost,
and I just based since tears and that was it.
That was my spiritual connection to the shod you were
in there. And then after then it took about another

(09:54):
fifteen years, so that was probably back in two thousand
and three, and then back around two thousand from fourteen fifteen,
I started really delving deep into Childs during and looking
at all the scientific evidence and everything. One thing I
did realize what was, which you know, quite astonishing, was

(10:16):
that the evidence supported the fact that it is authentic.
I expected that, you know, to be more evidence it wasn't.
But they were actually more evidence site was authentic, and
obviously the evidence that isn't authentic. You know, there were
a lot of questions around, you know, like they dated

(10:39):
the cloth back in the nineteen eighties and they put
it in there. I think it was Nature magazine they
put it in or was it Anyway, they put it
in a publish it in a magazine. Only about three
or four months after they published the date on the
news and they said it was from twelve sixty to
thirteen nine. Now for a lot of people, they just thought, oh,

(11:03):
you know that that proves it's a fake. But what
people didn't realize is they actually held back the road
data until twenty eighteen, when the road data was forced
to be released by the UK Freedom of Information Act.
They released the information. Scientists looked at the road data

(11:29):
and there's been two scientific papers wrote since on it,
you know, saying that this should have never been published
at all. So they should shouldn't have really published it
back in the nineteen eighties, I think the public in
nineteen eighty seven, I think it will Yeah, And it
just showed that the data was ambiguous, that the dates

(11:51):
were all over the place. You know, some dates were
like the sports, you know, from anything from seven six
did a you know, fifteen sixteenth century, So there were
a lot of dates out and they found that it
changed about two hundred years every two centimeters on the

(12:12):
shround during So really that's been made invalid, that that
dating test, But that that was the cough, that was
the the nailing the coffin. Really at that time.

Speaker 2 (12:26):
Paul's mentioned his experience there. I'm not somebody who particularly
says and God spoke to me, but I definitely believe
every now and then he gives me a nudge. That's
the way I look at it, and when I had
that conversation with my friend David, I just really got
stuck into doing some research into the Shroud and found

(12:50):
out things that we'll talk about this at these six
Mysteries on the Shroud, we've just basically covered one of
them at the moment, the six distinct different mission that
we need to have a look at. Really. But one
of the first things I did a little bit like
we're doing now, I actually found a YouTube presenter called

(13:10):
Guy Powell and guys probably interviewed anyone and everyone that's
been connected with the Shroud over the years, and has
produced an excellent book on the Shroud call The One Witness.
And I watched a program that he was doing with
a guy called Michael Kowalski. And Michael Kowalski was very
much involved in with basically what Paul's been talking about,

(13:33):
you know, refute the carbet dating and you know, kicking
it into touch completely. And when I watched the program,
something said to me, you need to contact Michael Kowalski.
Now sent him an email and it turns out he
lives quite close to me, and Michael has become a
good friend and he's actually written the forward for my

(13:55):
illustrated booklet, so he became my technical advisor. So that
was one thing. And then bizarrely, one of the videos
I watched was by a Catholic priest called Father Aimon Kelly,
and he was doing he was basically based at that
point in Jerusalem, and there's a museum there that's permanent

(14:18):
museum to the Shrouds, so he was basically showing folk
around his museum. And again I watched it, watch this
tour that he did, and I got another notice, you
better contact Father Aimond Kelly. And when I contacted him
to congratulate him on the video that I'd watched, he
said to me what video And it turned out that

(14:41):
I was watching was recorded twelve years earlier and had
only just been put up onto YouTube. Anyway, the end
result of that sort of contact was Father Aimon has
also done a forward for my book and he's been
was very very supportive in in the work I was doing,

(15:01):
and has shared the booklet with you know, people within
the Catholic Church who are considered to be experts on it.
So you know, it's just amazing how God works, and
I think sometimes we don't always stop and recognize what's
going on. And the fact that I'm sat here now,
I mean I didn't know Paul. I think we've known

(15:23):
each other for just over two months, my friend, and
again it was on Facebook that I noted and I
got the nudge, and the nudge was you better get
hold of Paul. Anyway, it turns out that we don't
live that far away from each other either, you know.
So we had cat coffee together probably less than two
and then we've got this collaboration going and that's resulted

(15:47):
in the two of us sharing this platform with you
with you today. So clearly God is at work in
all this. And I think into sort of balance of
the carbon dating, I think we need to go go
back to nineteen seventy eight when there was the STIRB investigation.
This was where I think, depending on which numbers you

(16:10):
look at, between thirty and forty American scientists actually went
tutoring and spent nearly five consecutive days studying the shroud.
They were given permission to do that, and the end
results of all their work it took about three years,
I think, to actually announce the results because their brief

(16:32):
wasn't to see whether the shroud is authentic or not.
And what the the brief was was to try and
find out how this image got on the cloth, which
is this superficial image that we will be talking about,
which is on the top one percent of the fibers.
How did it get there? And their conclusion was most
definitely it was not the work of human hands. And

(16:55):
that was in nineteen seventy eight, nineteen eighty one. What
would have been great for the shrouds of the time.
And then bringing it back to what Paul's commented on
about nineteen eighty eight, clearly that must have been a
real blow when you know the British Museum and it
was a headline using English newspapers that it was a
medieval fraud. Apparently somebody had faked it up and flogged

(17:18):
it off. That was that was a quote in the
newspaper at the time. Well, you know today, nobody's been
able to show how it was faked up. You know,
there's there's actually nobody had been able to to repeat
in any way the image on that on that cloth.

Speaker 1 (17:38):
Yeah, there's actually a BBC and he's offered a million
dollars for anyone who can applicate the image with the
same characteristics and rose to the.

Speaker 4 (17:53):
Challenge wolf, isn't it a three D image?

Speaker 1 (17:58):
Because it just cannot be done? Yeah, that's that's actually
we've got more interested in the first place, in back
in the late seventies the fact that it's a three
D image, so it's like roll like an holograph, but
the information is say, it's like a dotted image. So

(18:24):
the only way to describe it is like the fibrils
is actually part of the image, So the elements of
the fibrils have changed, and it's just right on the
top layer of the fibrils. You've got all these dots
on a On a normal photograph or a drawing, it's

(18:44):
usually shades, so you get darker and lighter shades. With
the shrouded churing, it's all the same color, exactly the
same shading all the way through. And the reason why
it looks a lot lighter and darker in certain parts
of the shroud is because it's an actual dotted image.
What do they call it? Aerial density image?

Speaker 2 (19:08):
I think as well. I mean, we've talked about the
superficial image, but let's let's look at the cloth itself
and what's on it. So the superficial image is obviously
what we've just been discussing there. But what is on
it is what appears to be evidence of a man
who has been crucified in quite graphic detail. There are

(19:33):
blood stains, there are scourge marks, you know, all over
the cloth, which correlates exactly to what you would have
expect to be seeing, you know, as somebody who had
been crucified. Yeah, and there are blood, you know, back
to the researchers of the Stir project, this human blood

(19:58):
on the on the shrouds, and also if we were
to look at it, we have obviously got an image
with us today. The shroud was actually damaged in fifteen
thirty two there was a fire. It was in a
chapel in France at the time, and it's I suppose
in a way miraculously it survives. But there are sixteen

(20:19):
burn holes up and down, up and down the cloth
which came about because of that fire. And there's actually
water stains on it because clearly they had to try
and put the put the fire out, you know. So
but most of the image, miraculously, I would again it's
still is still retained there.

Speaker 3 (20:38):
I believe, I'm right but you have a you have
a behind you in the in your image. You actually
have a copy of the shroud back. There isn't that
what that is? I see hanging behind you?

Speaker 2 (20:48):
So whatever he's pointing to is the hat is the head.
So what we should recognize here is where I'm pointing
now is the front of the mat, but the top
here the back of the mat.

Speaker 1 (21:02):
Have you got an image of it in your booklet?

Speaker 2 (21:04):
Of course?

Speaker 1 (21:05):
Yeah, you could show.

Speaker 3 (21:07):
Yeah, and I'll make sure too for those of you
that are listening and not watching, you might want to
go to the TFHC dot com and actually watch this
one because we're going to have some visual aids. I'm
going to drop in some good photos too of the
of the X ray imaging so everybody can see.

Speaker 4 (21:22):
But yeah, you can.

Speaker 3 (21:23):
Clearly see, especially when you run a negative on the photo,
the image just absolutely bursts off the page at you.

Speaker 2 (21:30):
What what is really amazing? And I think we you
can gloss over this that we're looking at the front
and the back. How on earth did that happen? Have
you guys ever come across the camera where you take
the front and back image of a person at the
same time that doesn't exist, right, we have an want

(21:52):
some bat. It's almost it's almost impossible to understand.

Speaker 1 (21:59):
Actually match up with the front, you know, perfectly, So
it's like exactly you know. I think what they're determined
was that it wrapped a real body. That's what they
turning back in the early eighties was all them scientists.

Speaker 3 (22:13):
And it wasn't how the images wasn't it almost it
was sort of levitated when the image was made. If
I remember seeing something, right, it was almost like it
was like lifted up.

Speaker 2 (22:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (22:29):
They wrote a few scientific papers on it with it
where they can tell just from the air that the
man was vertical when the image was taken. But he's
also got his feet. He's got his feet like that vertically,
so he's not standing, he's actually feet like in the
crust and position as though he's got one one you know,

(22:51):
behind the other. The actual back of the shroud, there's
no compression marks on the skin. I mean, it's so
detailed when you really look at it, there's no compression
marks to show that it was laying down at all.
So the man himself was either you know, in a
state of where there's no gravity, oh you know, it

(23:13):
was just still right.

Speaker 3 (23:15):
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(23:59):
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Thanks so much. Back to the show. Before we go
any further on some of the data. What I would
like to do again, just for those that maybe are
not as familiar with things as the four of Us,
and I'm the least familiar of the four of us.

(24:20):
Just historically, let's walk back to kind of the beginning,
because we obviously see in the Bible that the cloths
were set to the side, right.

Speaker 4 (24:30):
And we can read these in the gospels.

Speaker 3 (24:32):
What is the first time that these cloths reappear in
history that we are aware of?

Speaker 4 (24:39):
And where right?

Speaker 2 (24:41):
Well, there's a probable historical trial, which again I cover.
And if we obviously say that the journey of the
cloth started in Jerusalem thirty to thirty three AD, which
is fairly self evident. So the question is what happened
after that? Now there is a story, and it was

(25:05):
in no way there's no evidence of this in the Bible,
and it's the legend of King Abgar of Odessa, and
the Bible says that the news about Jesus spread all
over Syria, and people brought to him all who were
ill with various sicknesses, and he healed them. Now, King Abdar,

(25:26):
who had leprosy, sent a messenger to find Jesus and
ask him if he would come and heal the king.
And Jesus told the messenger he had other priorities, but
would send someone later to bring healing to the king
and his family. Now it's his thought the apostle Jude
took a cloth with a mysterious image on it to Adessa.

(25:48):
Abgar was healed of leprosy and became a believer, and
he eventually dies of natural causes. And then his second son,
Man who took over the throne, didn't like Christianity and
so his kingdom resorted to paganism. So we reckon that
the shroud was in a desert from between two hundred

(26:09):
and nine four four AD. I won't go into the
full details book. The history says that it probably went
from there to Constantinople from about nine four four to
twelve oh four. Then in twelve oh four we had
the Crusades, the Fourth Crusade, and it's believed that the

(26:32):
shroud disappeared around about that time, and seemed to reappear
in Chamboury in France in about fifteen oh two. And
the story goes there that they think that a French
knight basically got hold of thee of the shroud the cloth,
but the pope had said that anybody who steals any

(26:55):
any religious relics would be excute indicated from the Catholic Church.
So that's a plausible explanation as to why the cloth
seemed to disappear until fifteen oh two, And then we
could say that there's there's absolutely historical evidence from fifteen
oh two all the way through to fifteen seventy eight

(27:19):
when the cloth ended up in Turin. So we can
say that, but the journey that I've described isn't conclusively historical,
but it's probably the best guest that we can give.

Speaker 1 (27:33):
Yeah, I think if we back up a bit and
go to where first mentioned in a desert, there are
some scripture elements about the Turin that where the scripture
is actually sort of like a llude to it. There's
I think three Galatians. One pulls right into the Galatians

(27:56):
and he actually says, oh, foolish relations, who has deceived
you from the truth? Whose eyes? So the portrayal of
Jesus Christ crucified, So that to me, scholars have struggled
with that for many years because it's actually the actual
Greek word is like the trailers like showing him, showing

(28:19):
him something of Jesus Christ being crucified, and it was
that that powerful, this thing, what he showed him that
it would absolutely couldn't understand now they could stray from
the truth. So that's one mentioned in the scriptures. When
you come to a deasa, they were actually called the mandilion.

(28:41):
So another word for it was called the mandlion. And
all we know about the cloth of a deessa was
it was like a faced cloth, so they must have shroud,
you know, followed the shrouder put some time and there
are there are fall matsund you can see this. But Paul,
did you a word in the scriptures called and I

(29:03):
think I'm not the only person who's discovered this, but
I discovered something knew about it. It was the actual
Greek word mandylion. Paul used it. It actually means cloak.
There's no the word that Paul used was was not
actually a Greek word used at the time, so it's

(29:25):
not found in ancient Greek. So the word he used,
well like a code word for a cloak. I think
it's too timothy before I think it's he says it
in it says bring my cloak from Troas. But that
that word mandylion is actually very similar word Bishops then

(29:48):
use later and then they called the cloth of a
Dessa Mandylion, which was the more more or less very
similar similar word. So whether it's the same cloth, yeah,
it's speculation.

Speaker 4 (30:04):
And when was the fire again, fifteen.

Speaker 2 (30:06):
Thirty two, okay, so that was in Chambrey, France.

Speaker 4 (30:10):
And now the cloak was folded at that particular time.

Speaker 3 (30:12):
That's all the burn and the water marks are all uniform, right,
because the cloak was folded, Yes, and I think it
was actually kept in like a silver.

Speaker 4 (30:21):
Yes, the silver box.

Speaker 3 (30:22):
Yeah, and the silver dripped onto the cloth, right, and
that's how it gets to works.

Speaker 2 (30:27):
But also in this time period, particularly in France, the
shroud would have been on display many many times, you know.
And you know, we've alluded to the carbon dating and
et cetera. But the you know, the cloth that was
tested in nineteen eighty eight, the part of the cloth
that was tested had probably been held by hundreds, if

(30:51):
not thousands of people over the years in that very
corner you know, where the sample was taken, you know.
So yeah, because it was it was on display. There's
lots of paintings of the shroud on display, you know,
I think somewhere, you know, hundreds and hundreds of times
across the way ready.

Speaker 1 (31:10):
I think it was was it Joe Marino and his
wife that they they found out that the the actual
edge of the cloth looked more like an invisible reweek
from France, so it looked like it had been stitch
stitch back on invisibly. And I think Ray Rogers he

(31:31):
denied it. He was one of the scientists that worked
on crowding in the eighties and late seventies, and he
denied their claims until he took out the sample he
had already got. Because he's got a sample of it,
he found manoru dyeing it and things like that, so
that confirmed the theory. He also found cotton as well,

(31:52):
so it seems like a part of the shroud that
corner had been plared in the past. Yeah, obviously, that's
obviously one of the things that skewed the dates as well.

Speaker 2 (32:04):
Another characteristic of the you know a mistery, let's draw
it up street is the fact that the shroud is
best viewed from a distance. Now, the shroud is not
on display to the public and hasn't been for quite
some time. Twenty fifteen I think was the last time I.

Speaker 1 (32:22):
Think they showed it during COVID. Actually, of course, it
during COVID only televite of course. Okay, is that remember
I remember watching it. I watched it on right.

Speaker 2 (32:34):
But if you if you were present at the viewing
then to see it. Apparently it's best viewed from about
six foot away, and apparently the closer you get to it,
the less of the image that you can actually see
on it, which is which again is amazing unlike a photograph,
because it's the opposite. If you know, with a photograph

(32:56):
or a painting, even the closer you get, the more
detailed you will see. But the shroud is totally different.
You know, the the closer you get, the less that
you will see.

Speaker 1 (33:07):
I think it's been like six foot. Where you get
up to six foot, that's it. If you get closer
than six foot, it just disappears. The image just vanishes.
And it also vanishes under a back in light. So
when they shine the back in light the back of
the image, it also disappears.

Speaker 2 (33:24):
And I think the other thing you mentioned earlier was
about the image about the photographic negative which is there
displayed there. This is that in eighteen ninety eight there
was a second a peer but took the first photograph
of the shroud and he when he processed it and

(33:44):
developed it, this is what happened. So the negative looks
much clearer than the shroud cloth itself. So to think
that back in you know, that this cloth could have
the photographic negative quality again, is just I mean, that
is another amazing mystery. How that, how the how this

(34:04):
cloth could actually have that situation. The other thing about
the cloth as well, is that the we talked about
the blood stains, well, the blood stains on the cloth
are bright red. Now a lot with bloodstains, in most
cases blood turns either to brown or to black, but

(34:26):
it's gone, it's gone bright let. And that's because of
an element called billy rubin, which when when when a
person's had a real physical trauma, such as a crucifixion,
the blood is left in such a way that it
remains bright red. So that's another mystery that's there. And

(34:46):
in fact, I would sell the confirmation that clearly the
body on this cloth that had been crucified. And then
I think one more thing to mention, which will come
to later, that there on the cloth itself there are
no stains of decomposition. So if you think about it
for a moment, a body that's been Sorry, a dead

(35:09):
body that's been wrapped in a cloth, if it was
there for even a short period of time, the body
would start to decompose and water blood, you know, would
start to seep out of the body and clearly discolored
the cloth. This cloth has no stains of decomposition, so
that tells us if a body was in the cloth,

(35:31):
it wasn't there for very long.

Speaker 1 (35:33):
It's not as though they can it's not as good
wrapped it either, because they can check check their blood.
I mean, scientists have worked at the blood and they
thought that there's no there's there's no no, no marks
of where it's cracked or anything like that. Whereas if
instead of just took the body off off the cloth

(35:55):
within someventy two hours, there should have been some marks
and they should have been cracking off the blood. But
there's none of that. It's like the body just vanished.
So that's another mystery. I think one of the biggest
mysteries to me is like when during when they when
they dated the cloth, after they dated it to the

(36:17):
medieval times, the the British you know, the guy who
did the data and everything, and the British Museum received
one million dollars, So like back harsh money, one million
dollars and a lot.

Speaker 4 (36:36):
That's a great way to pollute the science pretty fast,
isn't it.

Speaker 1 (36:38):
So? I mean some people wanted that first place.

Speaker 4 (36:41):
I think the in for that, Yeah, go figure it.

Speaker 3 (36:45):
Ben.

Speaker 4 (36:45):
You had a question real quick. I just like that.

Speaker 3 (36:46):
Oh I was gonna say, isn't it one continuous piece
of linen, like woven together?

Speaker 2 (36:52):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (36:55):
Yes, yes, in the the pieces that like going back
to we'll say, if it's the time of Christ, then
they would have not mixed any kind of two separate
pieces of cloth like they wouldn't put cotton or with liden.

(37:17):
I mean they would have mixed that. So the fact
that they did a hidden seam on it was pretty
good when it was put on. Just to make sure
I'm understanding right, because it is fourteen feet long and
four feet wide. When it was put on Christ, it
was actually basically the center point at the seven foot
mark would have been put on Christ at the top
of his head and then draped over both sides, right,

(37:39):
So you're going to have seven feet on the front
and seven feet on the back roughly.

Speaker 4 (37:43):
Is that is that correct? How it was put on they.

Speaker 1 (37:46):
Do believe that Salure was wrapped up. I mean the gospels.
I think it's Gospel Marcos or one of the gospels
set the shroud, which they used the great word syndon,
which means shroud. It was wrapped over the body, so
wrapped over the shroud over the body. But scientists still
believe that they tied it up as well. He was on.

(38:08):
There's like a side panel down down the cloth has
been got off and then resow and off, resown on
back on now this side panel. They've looked at the
stitch pattern when it was being renovated back in the
early two thousands, and a textile experts that that it

(38:29):
matched almost matched the stitch pat of Masada for century.
So they've got a piece of cloth from Massada, first
century and it matched that particular stitch pattern, which obviously
puts it back in the first century.

Speaker 2 (38:44):
Obviously, we're aware from the Bible that the the cloth
belonged to Joseph of Aramathea. It wasn't originally meant for Jesus.
It was meant for Joseph of Aramathea, who was clearly
a very wealthy man. So he'd basically ordered and had
produce a very expensive cloth, which is back to this

(39:04):
herring bone weave, and I think it was based on
some Egyptian weaving technique, you know. I think if you
go back into the history, that there was a certain
type of weave that was produced along the way, which
presumably only was available to those who had plenty of

(39:24):
money at the time, which obviously Joseph clearly did. I
think the other thing about the way that the cloth
was a sort of good Friday, that there was a
bit of haste. Again, we might just touch on a
bit more detail in a moment. It wasn't the complete
burial because you know of the passover, so it was

(39:45):
a bit of a I'm going to say a rush job,
but it was really so. And that's why on the
Sunday morning that the women actually had gone back to
finish the job, if you like. So, so the actual
burial cloth was lot are complete am covering, you know,
as it would have been later.

Speaker 1 (40:07):
I think a lot of objections, A lot of Christians
have a lot of objections, and one of them is
that Jesus had been covered with a face cloth, and
it mentions the face cloth, but where's where's the face cloth?
And I don't know whether you have you guys heard
of the scenarium of Vida.

Speaker 4 (40:26):
Yeah, I was getting ready to ask that question, Yeah
I had.

Speaker 3 (40:28):
I had some questions too, of about the face cloth
as well, how that would have been applied, and where
is it now and some of that as well.

Speaker 4 (40:34):
So good job you're getting early. Who has it now?

Speaker 2 (40:39):
The Darum of all Viedo is actually in Spain, it's
in Orviedo. And just going back to the face cloth,
it's my understanding that when Jesus was brought down from
the cross, remember that the burial would have been a
typical Jewish burial at the time, and my understanding is

(40:59):
that the face would would have been immediately covered because
it was Jewish tradition that they didn't want any any
sort of any leakage from a body. They wanted to
bury everything, you know, because bodies decomposed quite quickly, as
we just mentioned before. So I think if we imagine
that this there was a face covering over Jesus as

(41:19):
they brought him down from the cross and took him
to the and took him to the two. But the
accounts on Easter Sunday morning says that there was a
face cloth was actually seen to be wrapped up and
somewhere separate. So that's why we reckon that that cloth

(41:41):
is as Paul was saying, the scenarium of Oviedo, which
is which actually directly matches a lot of the the
bodily fluids and the bloodstains on the on the shroud,
So that face cloth was not buried with Jesus, it
was separates, a separate thing that was only there for

(42:02):
that period of time bringing him down from the cross,
taking him to the two.

Speaker 1 (42:08):
And then they found like limestone dry on both cloths
that they found from Jerusalem. On both clothsdown Dale, they
found like mirror and allows the same mirror alows signature
and both cloths as well, and obviously the same type
of blood patterns on both cloths. So like a forensic

(42:29):
link to the shroud the scedarium, and the scenarium actually
goes back. It's got a documentary history back to the
sixth century. So you know, if people want to say
that the shroud is a medieval forgery, Abel, they've got
to explain, you know, how is it a forensic link

(42:49):
to this cloth? And we proved in a pot a
lot how is it a forensic link to this headcloth?

Speaker 3 (42:56):
Century isn't the blood pattern on the one that was
over his head to say, similar to that what was
on the shroud?

Speaker 4 (43:04):
Never remember? Right?

Speaker 1 (43:05):
Yeah, that's they match it up by kids, one hundred
and twenty congruents point congrates. So they matched it up,
and I think typically typically to match a face up
in a court of low it's about fifty or sixty
points of congruence. But they matched it up one hundred
and twenty. Yeah, so it's def So they are saying, it's,

(43:29):
you know, almost the same man.

Speaker 2 (43:31):
We can cover this point now if we like. So
if we go to the the crucifixion and Good Friday,
my view is that the apostle John, well, we know
he was present at the crucifixion. We know he was there.
So if we think about it for a moment, somebody

(43:53):
had to bring Jesus down from the cross and carry
the body to the two. That was probably Joseph for
aarromythea wanted too, maybe Nicodemus. I'm not sure, but I
would suggest John was probably present and probably helped carry
the body. And therefore, if he carried the body from
the cross to the tomb. He was probably present when

(44:16):
they actually put the buried cloths over the dead body
of Jesus on on Good Friday? Does that? Does that
sound reasonable? Would you go along with that? Okay? So
so then obviously the the stone is put over the
over the tomb, and off the go, and then we

(44:37):
know the story. On on Easter Sunday morning that Mary Magdalen,
you know, arrives. You know, I won't go over the
full story, but I think we know it quite well. However,
the first two apostles to come to the two as again,
you'll probably know that Pete and John. And John got

(44:58):
there first, but in deference to Peter, he let Peter
go in first. And then there's a line in scripture
that says and John looked in and he believed. Now,
I think what John saw was the burial cloths that
he saw Jesus wrapped in, wrapped up like a cocoon

(45:20):
with nobody in it. The body had disappeared completely. And
that really struck me when I was doing my research
that John looked in and he believed. So why would
he believe because he would have seen something there? And

(45:41):
he doesn't actually say that, you know that he didn't
mention the shroud directly. He does mention linens, et cetera.
But I think that's quite a dramatic sort of part
of the of the gospel that we don't always focus on.

Speaker 1 (45:57):
And it does say that the other disciples didn't know that,
they didn't know that Jesus arose from the dead at
the time, and it was just John, John ye, the
disciple who saw the linen cloths, and he does zone
in on the linen cloths. He does say, you know,
the linen cloths were lying there with the class wrapped
up to the side, and there is a What's interesting

(46:22):
is in the I think it's either six or seventh century,
but it's quite early on. There's there's actually a measurite text.
It's like like a vicar, you know, doing his sermon
notes or whatever. And the priest that did it, he

(46:43):
he actually interjected the scriptures and he put that John.
And when when Peter and John ran to the tomb,
they saw the linen cloths line now and the imprints
of the risen man on the cloths. So the is
actually it it early on. It shows that Christians new

(47:08):
on the worth bloss of Jesus Hey everyone.

Speaker 3 (47:11):
We'll get you back to the show in just a minute,
but I wanted to show you another way that you
can actually help out myself and the show. Heading over
to our website, THETFHC dot com and click on pod you.
This is actually going to take you to podcast University.
So if you or anyone you know has wanted to
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(47:35):
for you on here, both on demand or you can
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Speaker 4 (47:54):
You can head over to THETFHC.

Speaker 3 (47:56):
Dot com forward slash pod dash you and I look
forward to seeing you in the next session. It seems
like the first good forensic study of this was kind
of where we started, so we're kind of back back
to that was done in that seventy eight time.

Speaker 4 (48:14):
Prame.

Speaker 3 (48:15):
Now, what all did they do during that forensic study? Well,
I guess they were they weren't necessarily trying to prove
or disprove. They just were doing a deep forensic study
of everything. So what exactly what all did they do
at that time?

Speaker 2 (48:29):
Well, they were doing all sorts of measurements. So over
five days they performed photo mike cross could my cross
could be easy for me to say, and many photographs
would taken, including close ups of the fact rig at
different levels of magnification, low energy X ray, X radiography,

(48:51):
have to put my teeth back in. I think infrared
thermograph imaging and reflections spectronasy Well, you did ask me
to say what the site was and these tests, let's
go on. They can detect anything might result from trace
organic elements, anything metallic or organic compounds. They also performed scanning,

(49:16):
photographery from infrared to ultra violence, particle analysis, blood analysis,
and micro chemical analysis. An enormous amount of data was
gathered over one hundred and twenty continuous hours. So I think, gentlemen,
we could say it was a pretty thorough scientific research

(49:38):
that was done.

Speaker 4 (49:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (49:40):
I think the main thing is they found that they pigments.
They weren't enough pig from the cloth connect the England,
which they were expecting. You know, I think it will
Barish Wortz, who was a Jewish photographer on the team.
You know, he went and he here expecting just to

(50:00):
find the pigments on the cloth, say it's a painting.
They didn't. Then they sound nothing.

Speaker 2 (50:09):
There's a massive project as well. It's amazing really that
the Vatican allowed them to do it, really, but there
you go. It did.

Speaker 1 (50:16):
Also.

Speaker 2 (50:17):
I think one area we've not covered so far is
that so we had the controversy with the carbon dated
but of course subsequently there's been many other tests that
have been done to actually prove that the shroud is
clearly much older than the carbon dating results showed. So

(50:38):
it's quite a number of different Paul's mentioned one of them,
which was dirt analysis. There was also pollen analysis and
dirt analysis. So some of the limestone particles that are
on I think you mentioned on these the scenarium and
on the shroud can be traced back to the Damascus

(50:58):
Gate in Jerusalem in the first century, you know. And
the pollen as well. And there was a guy called
dr Abgen Daneen who wrote a book called the Botany
of the Shroud, and he's also showing that there was
pollen on the shroud that can only have come from

(51:19):
a place in the Jerusalem area again in the first century,
you know, So all sorts of different tests showing that
along the way.

Speaker 1 (51:29):
I think the biggest one was done in twenty twenty,
and that was X ray spectrotronomy test.

Speaker 2 (51:36):
Wide angle X lay scattering for angle X rays scattering.

Speaker 1 (51:43):
And they found that the date for that was between
thirty five. On the crowd vanilla and test, where the
chick vanilla and say you like vanilla ice cream, vanillain

(52:04):
is actually probably vanilla and ice cream. They don't actually
make ice cream out of fabric. But they checked the
vanilla and on the on the actual shroud, and vanilla disappears.
So after time it starts to degrade and disappears. They
found no vanilla on the shroud textile itself, which means

(52:27):
it gives it a maximum age of you know, a
minimum age of one hundred years. And what's interesting is
the sample they took to date the shroud back in
the eighties that does have vanilla and on it. So
whereas the shroud doesn't have vanilin the corner piece, what
they took the sample from does have the.

Speaker 2 (52:48):
M So now I think also gentle, But what we
need dress is can it be Jesus? You know, this
could be the shroud of anybody. So we need to
look at what evidence there is out there that the
points so, yes, it was, it was on the cloth,
was a crucified man, well, many people, many men were

(53:09):
crucified at that time. So how can we actually establish
that it is Jesus? H And it'll be pleased to
know that there there are pointers to that, and one
of them is the the earliest images of Jesus if
you go back to you know, the two the Catacombs.

(53:30):
Apparently in the early days, Jesus was actually shown as
a like a bit of an Adonist sort of figure
with without a beard or with you know, looking quite
a sprightly young chap and it was only sort of
around about the the sixth century that we started to
to get this sort of image that many of you
will be familiar with.

Speaker 4 (53:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (53:53):
I don't know whether Paul wants to comment on on
this this particular picture because it took because it fits
nicely into what you were saying about the mandilia at
the face image.

Speaker 1 (54:04):
Yeah, that's a coin image in it. They found many
coins back in I think eighth century, ninth century, sixth century,
and they all bear striking, striking resemblance to the face,
some of whom have even got the mark. So like

(54:25):
one coin as well on the fils right, each is
actually swollen and brutes, and there is actually a coin
where he shows that and the fork beard where his
woods been pulled out as well.

Speaker 2 (54:41):
But there's also here this is the fold mark. You know,
we said that. We've said already that the shroud for
many years, even in fifteen thirty two was folded well
in those early days. There's actually a fold mark on
the shroud which appears on the coin. It appears on
the coin which says that the person who did who

(55:05):
did that mold must have actually seen the shroud image
itself in order to do that the mold they guided
the cutting at that time, So that's around about five
or six hundred. I think. The other thing isn't going
back to scripture, that it was unusual for a criminal

(55:28):
to be to be flogged and crucified. What used to happen,
apparently is the Romans were were quite good additioning out punishment,
but they would usually only flog someone close to death,
but not to death as an example, So that would normally,
you know, that would be normally happened, or they would

(55:49):
crucify a man. Now, usually if they crucified someone, that
person was on the cross for several days. So yet
here in this situation we have a man who was
both flogged and crucified, which is most unusual. And I
think another point to Jesus is also that usually criminals

(56:12):
would end up in a like a paupers or a
common grain. But this particular criminal, Jesus, ended up in
a tomb buried in an expensive cloth, you know. So
again this points towards Jesus. It's not. One of the
problems we have in all this is that we'll never

(56:33):
ever be able to prove one hundred percent it is
Jesus in that clot Why we can certainly narrow it down,
but we can't prove it one hundred percent because we
don't have the DNA of Jesus. It's not to say
it's not, but I'm just saying from from that point
of view, we don't. Actually, that's one thing we don't
actually have available to us.

Speaker 1 (56:56):
They have done the computer models, computer model studying on
the shroud of Turin, and they found that the guy
is actually Semitic, is eighty five Semitic, So we know
that crucified you. Yeah, you know, that's one thing we know.
Like we also know from the airth stylites likely real

(57:19):
and green. We've got he's got the back and like
a like nae war ponytail, So look at the battlemage
of the shroud. He's got like a ponytail on the
back of the on the shround curing.

Speaker 2 (57:32):
The other thing about the marks on the body and
on the shroud is that we know, don't we that
the in the case of Jesus and the the thieves
that were crucified with it, and Jesus had already died,
so that the Romans didn't need to break his legs
mm hmm, so that the image on the shroud, the

(57:53):
legs are not broken. Also, we're aware that there was
a spear putting g jesus Is side and out came
blood and water. Now that blood and water is actually
on the shroud cloth in exactly the place you would
expect it to be, exactly the place you'd expect it

(58:14):
to be.

Speaker 4 (58:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (58:16):
One of the things that I think also for me,
points to the fact that this is Christ is the
crown of thorns, because that is not going to be
a typical injury, more than likely not. I mean, you
might get hit in the head while you're being scorged,
but they're going to scorge you and they're mainly going
to hit your mid section, your torso maybe some of

(58:39):
your legs, maybe your arms, but they're typically not going
to strike you in the face right or the head.
And you can clearly see when you look where a
lot of the injury from having the thorns pressed into
his head would be, and it shows up on the shroud.

Speaker 1 (58:56):
Yea, yeah, absolutely, I think they found they found the
pollen across the head as well, where all the marks are.
They found that it's come from a plant called Gundo
layer tone of Proteal's actually a plant native to Jerusalem
and it only blossoms in the spring. So the.

Speaker 4 (59:18):
Coincidence.

Speaker 2 (59:20):
Sure, you've all come across Mel Gibson's filmed The Passion
and at the time many people thought, you know, the
trail was totally unrealistic, it was over the top. Based
on what we see on this track, it clearly wasn't.
It was action.

Speaker 4 (59:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (59:38):
Well, I think they found like one hundred and twenty
scars mark back in France, correct of the shroud, and
I think they've they've narrowed it down to being a
typical gun bell shaped gage rooms done by something similar
to a Roman flav room. What was found in seventy
eight d up near mass they found this Roman slavery.

(01:00:01):
I think it's a museum where Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:00:05):
Is it?

Speaker 1 (01:00:06):
Is it in the Shroud museum? Tony the I think
you mentioned it the other day, something about the the
the Roman flavorp what the what used on the ground?

Speaker 2 (01:00:17):
Match?

Speaker 1 (01:00:18):
One match was the one in simplyd you're just looking
for it?

Speaker 2 (01:00:21):
Yeah, a shout that was on there actually horrific since
cinem music that was This is in the museum in Jerusalem.
Actually this one there, I.

Speaker 3 (01:00:35):
Know one of the one of the things that Ben
always says I never really thought about, which he's awesome
for that because he just comes from a different place
in his mind than I do. So it opens my
eyes to a lot of stuff. I'm very thankful for him,
which is the fact that Christ could have that happen,
that could be scorged like that, and we know, I

(01:00:56):
think historically speaking that a lot of times people would
never make it to the Cross, the Romans would literally
scorge them to death. So between blood loss and shock,
probably people would literally never even make it there. And
one of the things that Ben has always pointed out
is the fact that after he's scorged, he's actually taken

(01:01:16):
to pilot and is able to have a completely coherent
conversation just kind of speaks to the divinity of the
moment to me right and to you, which is just unbelievable.
So one of the things that I want to transition
to now if we could, is let's talk about you know,
we've already kind of hinted at a few things where

(01:01:38):
you know, the naysayers will point at stuff and go, Nope,
can't be the shroud because this doesn't match up. And
I know one of the things that I had, and
I want to talk about this, and I want to
talk about some other things as well. What are some
of the other big things out there that they tend
to use other than what maybe we've already talked about,
as far as Terry in the corner piece off and
you know, obviously trying to run you know, carbon dating

(01:01:58):
where everybody would have touched it. What are some of
the other things that they typically use to try to say, no,
this is a forgery and all that.

Speaker 2 (01:02:08):
Well, it's interesting you should ask that today because there's
a guy called Russ Brio who is one of the
foremost experts on the Shroud, and he's just actually published
a new book. In fact, Russ was instrumental in my
little booklet. I based it on one of his YouTube videos,

(01:02:29):
and I was reading an opening chapter about several attempts
to show how the shroud was actually made by human hands.
And I can't remember the detail of each one, but
he went through a number of them, and a lot
of it was trying to say that it could have
been painted on. But one thing that I picked up,

(01:02:53):
which I don't know whether poll's come across this, that
along the way, copies of the copies of the shroud
were actually done. I say copies, you know, very poor
quality copies were done, and apparently there was some sort
of ritual that they used to put the copy cloth

(01:03:14):
on the shroud cloth, and that could result in some
pigments or paint or something being transferred across. So there
are some people out there saying, oh, yeah, well there's
evidence now that it was clearly painted. But each each
one of the attempts to sort of come up with

(01:03:34):
an alternative just fails. And in fact, Paul mentioned earlier
on about the David Rolfs situation, that just isn't a
feasible explanation as to how this the Shroud image came there.
In fact, when I was doing research for my book,
there's very little out there. There's there's sort of things

(01:03:56):
that anecdotal, you know, so there'll be some folks will
say it's one of those Catholic relics, you know, the
Catholics you know, were famous for, you know, selling off
parts of the cross and all this lot. And I think,
I actually do think that you can be perished because
if you if if if we say to folk, this
is you know, an artifact you know that's from the

(01:04:21):
Catholic Church, straight away people say, well, it must be
a fake then, because all of those you know, are
full of all those situations you see. I think that's
we have to sort of find a way to it.
I think in today's world, from what I'm seeing, people
across denominations seem more open to the story of the

(01:04:42):
Shroud than maybe they were because it's easy to be
closed mind and say, well, that's a Catholic thing, So
you know that's down to the Catholic Church.

Speaker 1 (01:04:51):
Right, I think I think as well, like you know,
there is they have found some red door clipping on
the shroud, but as Tony was saying, it's it's been
transferred on there, but there's not nearly enough to cause
the image because even if you've got all of that
wager into one spot, you'd still need a micro look
at it. And also the the the image disappears under

(01:05:15):
a backing light, but that that proves that it wasn't
pain because it had shown straight away under a back
in light. He also it was a burn or anything
like that, and it proves that you know, you the
image itself is so superficial that even UV light goes

(01:05:36):
deeper than the actual image. So even if even if
people want to say it's a photograph, it's not a
photograph because U V like actually goes deeper than not
like two microns. So everything apart from particles, So I
think some kind of particle energy, you know, like a

(01:05:56):
burst at the Resurrection of Jesus, actually cause the image.
It's just a burst of energy and that's what caused image.

Speaker 2 (01:06:06):
I was going to say an answer to the sort
of general question about you know, what's out there to
counter it. I think we're left with we have the
world's greatest unsolved mystery, you know. But because if and
I'm saying that, because nobody's come out with anything in
any way, shape or form to get close to it.

(01:06:28):
So now my approach to this whole subject is I
think I mentioned I jokingly say I'm doing a world tour,
but it's mainly in the northwest of England. And when
I talked live to a group of people, I take
the view that I mean, I want to invite them
to join me in my investigation, and I want them

(01:06:52):
to try and to keep an open mind as to
what they think. And at the end of my presentation
I do a secret balance where I invite the audience
to vote whether they think it's authentic, a hoax, or
in my case, something else. And so far fifty are
saying it's authentic, ten or twelve percent a hoax, and

(01:07:14):
thirty percent of saying something else. Now I take the
view as well, I don't declare even to all or
to you, my good friends, whether I actually believe the
Shroud of Turin is authentic or not, I think it
suits my purpose to keep that balance view along the way.
What I want to do is encourage people to look

(01:07:37):
at the story of the shroud, because, as we mentioned,
I think before we got started that one of my
goals in writing my book and doing the talks is
to share the Gospel, the story of the Passion, the Crucifixion,
and the resurrection in a totally different way without coming down.

(01:07:57):
So I don't want to actually declare to anyone I
believe the shroud is authentic or not, because in no
way does that influence my own faith. So whether the
shroud is authentic or not, it wouldn't make any difference
to me in terms of what I actually believe. I
think it would be good. Paul's started as on the

(01:08:18):
sort of frame of looking at the possible explanation for
the image, and I mean, and that's amazing. I mean,
you know, when we think about it, what we're actually
saying now is that I'm trying to keep it nice
and short, that what could have caused the image was
a massive burst of energy. And we're talking a massive

(01:08:40):
burst of energy. It up to thirty two billion watts
in a very very short period of time in nano seconds,
that could have been what actually produced the image of
the clock. So what we're looking at is this massive
burst of energy hitting the dead body in that cloth,

(01:09:02):
causing the dead body, as Paul has actually said, basically
to rise up and out of the cloth. And that
is an explanation of what may have happened. It's not
we're not saying that is what happened, but we're saying
we've looked at all the natural explanations. Now let's look
at a supernatural explanation. So a supernatural explanation is the resurrection.

(01:09:29):
And then it's for people who learn about the shrowd,
read the books, come to the talks, for them to
decide whether that has had an impact on them, and
hopefully it has.

Speaker 4 (01:09:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:09:45):
I think it's like it's like that famous quote from
Schililah Combs where you know it says, I can't remember
the quote. Actually, it's something about deducting. Have you got it? Yeah,
So when you have limited when you read.

Speaker 2 (01:10:01):
It, when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable,
must be the truth.

Speaker 1 (01:10:09):
So we can say what the shroud isn't better then
what the shroud is and it's definitely not a pint
and it's not gorgeous.

Speaker 2 (01:10:18):
My question would be so based on what we've been
chatting about today, I think we all have this passion
that we'd like to get the story of the Shroud
of Turin out there in some way. And Paul, it's
did an amazing job you know, on TikTok and and
all that to do it, and got a tremendous number

(01:10:39):
of followers, you know, who follow what he's doing with
you know, putting the image together, particularly live image animation
that he's doing as well. But how do we get
beyond that group? How do we get beyond our group
out there? Because sadly, you know, evangelism, I don't know
whether it's a dying out or whatever, but I'm searching,

(01:11:01):
always searching for ways within my own family and friends too,
you know, to tell the story of the Gospel. And
I really do believe that this the story of the
shod if we can engage people as we've done this evening,
actually discussing talking about checking it out whatever by definition

(01:11:22):
we're talking about, you know, the story of the passion
and the resurrection.

Speaker 1 (01:11:27):
I think I think that's why the Lord left this
image on this cloth, you know, as a sign of
cous fiction, burial and resurrection, just as a sign to
the world. And I think it's it's like the sign
of Jonah that Jesus speaks and the ludes to, because
it's got everything on there. It's got all the marks,

(01:11:51):
it's got all the wounds, it's propably resurrected onwards, everything's
recorded on that cloth. Well, like a crime invest the year.

Speaker 2 (01:12:01):
I think there's another question as well, which is to
the Catholic as to say, my information was the last
public showing was in twenty fifteen, and there isn't any
plans as we know at the moment for any future showing. Now,
you would have thought, logically, I used to be a
financial planner or accountant in my career, you would have

(01:12:26):
thought logically that the Catholic Church would want to have
the cloth retested, because nineteen seventy eight was a long
time ago, and you would anticipate that with you know,
scientific developments whatever, there would be a case for it
being you know, re examined, you know, and then but clearly,

(01:12:47):
clearly they must have their own reasons for not allowing
that to happen, and it just sounds a bit. It
seems strange to me that there is no plan to
actually show the cloth in the future. Maybe they will be,
maybe they won't. But one of the popes, I forget
the actor, which particularly one, but I have seen a

(01:13:10):
quote from one of the posts quite a few years ago,
and he's basically saying, as I said earlier, that the
story of the Shroud is a mirror of the Gospel.
So that's where that and the Catholic Church itself doesn't
declare that the cloth is authentic. So I'm actually doing
a talk to a Catholic church in a month's time.

(01:13:34):
I'm guessing that the majority will probably believe it's authentic,
but not every Roman Catholic that I meet believes it's authentic.
And as we've said before, it doesn't really matter from
a faith perspective whether it is or it is.

Speaker 1 (01:13:48):
I think if we look at it from scientific consensus,
you know, there's no consensus because although it is, if
it were like a pharaoh or someone like that, I'm
sure they'd say, oh, yeah, it's that fair. Um, you know,
we we we dug up. I remember watching a program
where they dive up Richard the Third in England, and

(01:14:10):
it's barely got as much evidence that that's Richard the
Third than they you're in as evident sich Jesus. So
you know, I think it's definitely authentic in my book,
because I think if you could take the evidence to that,
you know, say a mock up court case or something
like that, the evidence is so overwhelming that you know

(01:14:33):
they don't undoubtedly rule in favor of it being Jesus.

Speaker 2 (01:14:37):
I think the other thing I noticed from my presentations
is that I always say at the beginning that I'd
like you to keep an open mind. You know, whatever
you believe, whatever you however, you've come to this evening
to keep an open mind. But I recognize in life
that's almost impossible because we've all got a particular world view.

(01:14:58):
The four of us will have our own worldview now.
And therefore, if you've got somebody who's one hundred percent atheist,
and one of my closest friends is exactly that he
will come along to my talk convinced before I open
my mouth. But it's it's got to be a hoax
or a fraud because he's an atheist, you know, And

(01:15:19):
that's the difficulty. So I'm wondering, really again, if we
can find a younger audience who've never heard of it.
I'd love to actually speak to a group of thirty
or forty young people who've never heard of it at
all and go through what we've just been talking about
now and just get there get their sort of feedback

(01:15:40):
as to what they think. Because most of the people
I'm speaking to are retired and have already made up
the mind, you know, so whether you know so, I
think when they come to one of my talks, it's
of interest to them. What maybe not going to have
a dramatic effect. But I think with the younger people,
and that's why I'm convinced actually what Paul is doing

(01:16:03):
with the marketplace he's working in, he's tapping into that
very age group. I think we'll look you know that
Christianity is looking for because we've got to engage with
the younger people and find a way to do that.
You know what, Well, I'm cracking on a bit now.
I'm a bit older than you guys. I'm running out

(01:16:26):
of a bit of steam. But I'll keep on going
as long as I can. Sort of thing. But I
feel as they won't hand the battle over to somebody
else to Hey, come on, let's get the message out.

Speaker 4 (01:16:36):
Right.

Speaker 3 (01:16:37):
Hey everyone, we'll get you back to the show in
just a minute. But I wanted to share with you
a great way that you can keep in the know
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(01:16:59):
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Speaker 4 (01:17:14):
The merch store.

Speaker 3 (01:17:16):
So head over to the website VTFHC dot com and
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updated on everything Foil. And now back to the show now,
Ben Ben, I know you had a question.

Speaker 1 (01:17:33):
Yeah, we'll say it in England.

Speaker 3 (01:17:35):
Now going back to the image, you know I was
thinking about when Jesus asked, you know what's.

Speaker 4 (01:17:47):
On your coin. Oh yeah, give to Caesar. What is
Caesar is?

Speaker 3 (01:17:50):
Yes, because they weren't the Jews weren't allowed to have
any graven image, and it was Caesar's image on the coin.
Because no, no image of God was supposed to be
made by man. There's only one person that can make
the image of God. Then that would be God himself.
So going through that logic, God created his own image

(01:18:17):
to show that he was here. That's that's what I've
always believed.

Speaker 1 (01:18:22):
That's that's one of the objections from you know, christ Christians,
mainly in the church, is that a commandment that we
shouldn't make a graven image? But as you say, God,
you know, this one created by human hands. The science
tells us, tells it one. But I mean it's even
Moses were commanded by God to make a serpent in

(01:18:45):
the in the wilderness and to lift it up as
a sign. And Jesus actually quoted on that and said,
just as the serpent was lifted up in the wilderness,
the son of Man. And I think it's it's kind
of a sign, and it's not. It's not it's not

(01:19:05):
something that people worship. I won't know anyone who worships
the crowd. You know, I don't even know Catholic will
bows down to it.

Speaker 3 (01:19:15):
We had a conversation a couple of weeks ago, now
we could go two weeks ago, hard to remember. We
have a lot of conversations with a lady by the
name of doctor Joy Pugh. And in the discussion we
got into a little bit of the shroud, not intending
to it, just kind of the conversation drifted that way,
which is really fascinating. But one of the things we
were talking about was really DNA, and you can't really

(01:19:38):
have that discussion without talking about conception. And one of
the things that we know scientifically for a fact happens
when the sperm enters the egg is there is a
small explosion right that we can actually measure and we
can see. And you know, she postulates that more than

(01:20:00):
likely that is when the soul and the spirit are
actually entering into conception and creation. And it just seems
to fit that when Christ was returned from Sheol to
his body, you may have had that same explosive moment
that would have produced that burst of radiation to cause

(01:20:23):
what you see on the shroud.

Speaker 1 (01:20:25):
Yeah, and I think it's funny how you know Jesus
says you must be born again.

Speaker 3 (01:20:31):
M h.

Speaker 1 (01:20:32):
I think you know, being born again is when when
we come to the resurrection, and I think, I think
that's that's what happened to Jesus. I think it were
born again, born in a brand new body, and it
got us a spiritual body. And the Bible tells us
that that's happened. So it was one day, you know,

(01:20:55):
all all the believers it will will receive new bodies.
And I suppose that's gonna you know, I think I
think it's going to be like being born again, but
like this is this is sort of like there light
well that that transfer meible, yeah, and I think that's

(01:21:17):
what causes stralaturing.

Speaker 2 (01:21:19):
And again, you know what what we've been talking about evening,
I think it's a fascinating you know, if even if
we put Christianity to one side completely, the topic is fascinating,
and that that that that encourages me all the law
to be sharing that with everyone. Really because the store,

(01:21:40):
I mean, the story of the whole story, all the mysteries,
the fact that it's an unsolved mystery even now, it's
a fascinating subject. And if we can partl it up
in such a way to make it attractive to a
greater number. Again, I keep coming back to it that
that's that would be I think that would be our

(01:22:00):
joint and goal anyway, from the feeling I've got talking
to you guys to save that we share that same goal.
We want to share the Gospel out there, you know,
and find ways to do it.

Speaker 4 (01:22:13):
Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 3 (01:22:14):
Also, when we were talking to Joy Pugh, she said
that she believes that the Shroud is the Holy Grail.
That's what she said, and so I thought that was
fascinating and that's what got us into the Shroud because
it was like, can you elaborate a little bit and
it makes sense. I mean, the legend has it that

(01:22:36):
it did? Hell people, Yeah, we had all these conversations.
The conversation with you guys well planned. When we had
that conversation, we had no intention whatsoever of really getting
into that at all with her, And it's just amazing how.

Speaker 4 (01:22:49):
You guys should talk to her.

Speaker 3 (01:22:51):
Yeah, that conversation has now informed this conversation. But yeah,
you guys, you guys would have fun with Joy. Yeah,
maybe we have another show and everybody gets together, because
that would be for a roundtable.

Speaker 5 (01:23:00):
Yeah, yeah, I think I think the only grail it's
I mean, what made it the only grail was it
contained the blood of Jesus and that's what the show contains.

Speaker 1 (01:23:10):
It contains the blood of Jesus. I mean it's ingritting
into the cloth, so you can't like prick it up
and right, but yeah, it's it could have the story
of the old Rail.

Speaker 4 (01:23:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:23:26):
Well, guys, this has been phenomenal. Thank you so much.
I really appreciate your time. We appreciate you guys carving
some late night out. I know it's almost what pushing
eleven o'clock there for you guys, So I'm not going
to keep you up past your bedtimes anymore.

Speaker 4 (01:23:39):
Especially when we get older, we don't stay up as late.

Speaker 3 (01:23:41):
Just so we just thank you guys so much for
carving out some time and talking to us about this
and really appreciate it.

Speaker 2 (01:23:49):
Thank you so much as well. You know, I've really
enjoyed the discussion, and let's hope it's making it'll make
a difference out there. That's why I hope it will
make a difference.

Speaker 4 (01:24:00):
Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:24:01):
Yeah, I've definitely enjoyed it. Thanks guys, and yeah, we've
only touched the tip of the ice bag book.

Speaker 4 (01:24:07):
Oh we could do it again. Yeah, Part two been brilliant.

Speaker 3 (01:24:11):
Shroud Part two now again just to kind of repeat
so everybody can get a hold of you guys, reach
out get some more information.

Speaker 4 (01:24:20):
Tony will start with you.

Speaker 3 (01:24:21):
Please do go ahead and hold your website up there
again for us and for those that are only listening
and out watching, I'll literally rattle off the letters. So
if you want to get more information on Tony's booklet
that he's got, which is really great, go to Tony
t O n y dash cunliff ce U n l
I f f E dot Square dot site and you
can find that out.

Speaker 4 (01:24:42):
And again we'll link that for.

Speaker 3 (01:24:43):
You guys in the description so that yeah, you guys
can click it easy and everybody can get to that.
And if you want to check out Paul, which I
would highly recommend you do because one of the things
we didn't touch upon today that I definitely want to
just kind of end with because it's phenomenal, because it
takes all this and really puts it into humanity is
Paul has a ton of great visual information. Where we've

(01:25:06):
taken the image on the shroud, and he's computer modeled
it and made it all three dimensional and even videos
and stuff, so you can literally see the image of
Christ come alive right before your eyes, which just kind of,
you know, kind of gives me goosebumps just thinking about it.
Or the image of this individual who I would highly

(01:25:27):
suggest is probably Christ. But again, you know, with the
thing that we've always said on this show is it
looks like Christ, it sure does.

Speaker 4 (01:25:37):
You know, the thing we've always sad it.

Speaker 1 (01:25:38):
Mizes me that it actually looks like Jesus as well.

Speaker 3 (01:25:41):
Yeah right, you're right, right, like what we would image
Christ to look like. But you know, again, the thing
that we've always said on our show to and Tony
you touched upon this is hey, you know, we have
our opinions.

Speaker 4 (01:25:52):
Obviously that's fine.

Speaker 3 (01:25:54):
But for anybody out there that's not sure, this is
all information, you can go dig into it yourself. Don't
take our word for it, right, dive into your Bible,
go read the end of the Gospels, go see what
happens with all the clothes, and then go do your
own research on the shroud and you can make up
your own mind. So but gentlemen, thank you so much
for joining us and.

Speaker 4 (01:26:14):
We really appreciate it.

Speaker 3 (01:26:16):
Thank you all right with that we will bid you
ado until the next time on the foil, take care,

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Unveiling The Shroud of Turin | The Burial Cloth of Christ [UNARCHIVED]

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