C. J. Leede on 'AMERICAN RAPTURE', Writing Horror & New Book 'HEADLIGHTS.'

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello, everybody, Welcome to the Writing Community Chat show. I'm
extremely excited to talk to today's guest. Obviously, we had
a brilliant guest in the week with Alexis being on
the show and that was fantastic. And then we had
an exclusive interview from Sir Tony Robinson that dropped yesterday
that you can go and watch and binge watch if
you like Baldrick, though you probably hate me for saying that,

(00:21):
because he is now a professional writer and he writes
books as well. He's not just a comedian, so please
go and check those out. But tonight's show, we have
a fantastic author if you're into horror writing, if you're
into horror slash sci fi, or just an absolutely brilliant novel,
and tonight's guest ticks all of those boxes. So she's

(00:42):
the brilliant author of May Flight and American Rapture, which
is one of my favorite books of this year that
I've read. So I'm really excited to chat to her
on the show tonight. And I'm sure if you're watching
this now or you're listening back live, you're going to
enjoy this conversation and hopefully pick up some really good
tips and advice as well. So without further ado, because

(01:03):
obviously it's not with us today unfortunately, still not well,
so good luck to you, Agat. I'm recovering, but I'm
going to bring CJ. Lead out because I'm really excited
to talk to her. So, ladies and gentlemen, the fantastic CJ.

Speaker 2 (01:15):
Lead. Hi, Hey, how's it going great?

Speaker 1 (01:19):
How are you very good? Thank you? Thank you so
much for coming on and chatting to us. Really excited
to talk to you.

Speaker 2 (01:26):
Yeah, thank you for having me. I'm stoked, brilliant.

Speaker 1 (01:29):
So one of the first things that we always ask
our guests when they come on is what's where you're
coming from and what's the writing scene like where you are.

Speaker 2 (01:38):
I'm in Los Angeles right now. I've been kind of
living on the road this year all over, so the
writing scene is literally like me with my laptop. But
when I'm in LA I do have a lot of
author friends who I meet up with and write with,
and it's like super groovy. I actually went out to
book events every night last week, which, yeah, it was fun.

Speaker 1 (02:03):
Yeah, those book events can be pretty crazy. Did you
are you drinking on those book events? Because every night.

Speaker 2 (02:12):
We have to I think it's required.

Speaker 1 (02:14):
Yeah, celebrate the hard work, definitely, Yeah, exactly. Have you
got any good stories from those events that you've been to,
or like fans coming up to you and things.

Speaker 2 (02:23):
Well, so all the ones I went to last week
were not mine, which actually is kind of like I
prefer that because then I just get to like go
celebrate my friends and like, uh, be the be the
introvert I am until we go to the bar. No,
I don't know. There are tons of tons of fun
times stoker Con this last year. Have you ever been

(02:46):
to a Stoker Con? I have no. No, it's so
like if anybody doesn't know, it's kind of like this
big gathering of horror authors and like booksellers, librarians and
like and a handful of readers, and it's wild in
the best way. It's really just like such a celebration
of the community, and like it's really like bar con,

(03:07):
you know, like we do panels and things, but it's
really about seeing everyone. So it gets pretty lively. I'll say, Yeah, I.

Speaker 1 (03:15):
Can imagine lots of people in the comments already saying
jealous about the book events, and everyone's saying hello to
and stuff, which is fantastic. So yeah, obviously, with you
on the road a lot with your laptop, do you
find that's always been the way that you've written or
you have to adapt to obviously how your success is
of change the way that you're write.

Speaker 2 (03:37):
Well, so I'm on the road, not I'm on the
road because of the fires. So that is a little
bit of like a separate thing. But in terms of
just I mean, I guess I've lived on the road before.
I don't know. I'm so inconsistent, like I think, like
the only consistency I have is that is that there
is none. Like all for weeks, I will work sixteen

(04:01):
hours a day and not sleep, and then like I'll
take a week off and then I'll work only from
four to six am, and then I'll work only in
the evenings. It was fun being on the road this
summer because I could go I could go to things
like Stoker Coon, I could go to like whatever, and
then you know, I do think it's very inspiring being

(04:22):
around other authors when you can be and even last week,
like the events I went to were Chuck Tingle, Brian
McAuley was here, Alexandra Chang, who wrote a Ya novel,
I feel like I'm forgetting some I've got one with
Rachel Harrison next week. There's so much happening right now,

(04:43):
like it's exciting. But yeah, no routines. I'm a mess
I'm a messy author. I don't know.

Speaker 1 (04:51):
Yeah, we look like you say instead of Booker on
being barbercon because we've been to a few events in
the UK and that definitely like that.

Speaker 2 (05:02):
That's how it should be. I think, you know, it's like,
especially because it's such a solitary craft, which I love,
but like it really is fun to come together and
just celebrate the fact that especially in horror, but in
most all writing, you know, like we're just kind of
like looking the beast in the eye every day, Like
we're just like staring into the void by choice somehow,

(05:24):
and so it's great to like just get to chill
with your friends and kind of celebrate it.

Speaker 1 (05:30):
Yeah, definitely more of that in the book world, definitely,
so CJ. What we normally do is you play little
video and the first part of the show is the
Road to Write in So we asked you to sort
of tell us how writing became a thing in your
life and how you've got to where you are so
I'll play this little video and then when we get back,
we'll do that. So CJ, if you can take us

(06:04):
back to those very first moments when you thought about writing.

Speaker 2 (06:09):
My story is kind of like an odd one, so
like I didn't I wasn't planning to be an author.
I had like an open class my last semester of
undergrad and I took a writing class, and then it
ended up being that I graduated and my professor had

(06:31):
like sent what I had written to some people in
the industry, who then requested full manuscripts, and I wrote
a book very fast. It was like basically a very
early draft of what would become American Rapture, and it
was like so bad. It was the worst book ever.
I didn't know what I was doing. And then I
just kind of like life went on, nothing happened with it,

(06:54):
and I was twenty three, but I kept thinking back,
and I was like, you know, I really liked that
time when I was writing, even though that was something
I never considered for my life, and I kind of
couldn't get it out of my head. And then I
was going back to school anyway I had planned to
because I wanted to be a career academic like a historian.

(07:17):
And I thought, you know what if I just applied
to a writing program instead, And I applied three times
before I got in anywhere. And by the way, like
nobody needs a writing program to be a writer. I
feel like I always have to say it's like very important.
But I went and it was awesome. And I got
there and I was handing in stories and a professor said, okay,

(07:40):
so you're a horror writer. And I was like, oh no,
I don't like horror. I've never read horror in my life.
And he goes, okay, but everything you've ever handed in
is horror. So I read my first Stephen King when
I was twenty four and kind of like got an
education and kind of gained a community in writing. It
was the first time I ever really found I feel

(08:01):
like this is like my theme today. I don't normally
talk this much about the community, but it was I
found my community, I found my partner, Like writers are awesome.

Speaker 1 (08:10):
Mm, so how was that then? Obviously you said it
was it was amazing going to this down this academic
route if writing. And we've had a lot of authors
on the show that have talked about taking the academic
route and it taken some of the joy away and
then they had to kind of go away and then
come back to it after they've been away from academia.
So how did you navigate that when you were first

(08:32):
you know, understanding fiction and how it's crafted and how
you get certain ideas on the page. It can be
quite a lot to take in, So how did you
sort of manage that process and did you enjoy it
all the way through or was there any bits where
you're like, oh, this is not for me.

Speaker 2 (08:48):
Honestly, for me, like, I loved every second it never
I kind of went in with like zero ego because
I was like, I definitely don't know how to do this,
Like I knew on day one. I was like, I
need help. I want to learn this. So I think
in some ways it was probably easier for me. I know,

(09:08):
like just other people in my cohort would come in
and be like I'm used to being whatever, as if
there's a best like there's like all writing is good
and it's just different. But I know there was a
bit of that culture, but I didn't really experience a
ton of that mostly. I mean it was in the
particular program I was in it was like unfathomable to

(09:30):
people that I was doing horror or like genre in general,
So that was always kind of funny. But I just
I loved I loved learning. I loved getting to like
experience these other writers and come across works that I
wouldn't have otherwise. I loved like sort of analyzing what
story means. I don't know, it just like it lights

(09:51):
me up, it gets me going. But it was a
good culture overall. It was just like I got really lucky.
It was a very good vibe.

Speaker 1 (10:00):
That then, like obviously talks about finding your community, what
was it like to sort of share your writing with
people that you knew were going to sort of pick
the bones off your writing and sort of like give
you tips and advice. Can you remember what that first
feeling was like when you handed in that manuscript for
other people?

Speaker 2 (10:16):
I mean, you want to throw up, like you're so
you know, it's like terrifying. But I think, of course
there are people who are assholes in this world, but
in general, if you're showing up to learn how to
do a thing, it's like you support other people and
give them notes because it helps them, you know, Like
I like getting notes on my work because I wanted

(10:38):
to be like the best that it can be. So
I don't know. I liked the whole format. It was. Seriously,
our program was very like you know, it very much
romanticized the life of the writer in a way that
I just every day was like, I can't believe I
get to do this, Like I can't believe this gets

(10:59):
to be my life. And I honestly still feel that way.

Speaker 1 (11:02):
So when you said before about it being the sort
of early version of American Rapture, what do you think
was different about that draft? That it just wasn't quite
ready and it wasn't quite where you wanted it, And
how did you sort of navigate that from go in
with that first draft. So then obviously right in Mayfly,

(11:23):
having success with that and then going back to the
idea for American Rapture.

Speaker 2 (11:29):
It so drastically changed. I was very young, and with
American Rapture in particular, well, first I wrote it as
like dystopian Ya, which is so funny. It's what I
was reading at the time, and I was I was young,
you know, So a lot of my like Sophie, the

(11:49):
main character is sixteen. Two of the other main characters
are quite young, but the rest of them are adults,
and so I think it's very difficult to write like
an adult perspective when you're I've not been an adult
in this world, and I'm not even like sure I
count as one now. But some of the big scenes
in which the adults like really impart something to Sophie,

(12:13):
those were the last things I wrote or re wrote,
Like there's a scene in a hotel room with Cleo
talking to Sophie, and what she says to her is
actually the last thing I ever put in the book.
And it's like it was cool because it really took
this entire time span of a decade, I think, to
be able to like tell the story the way I

(12:34):
really needed to, and it would have been so hard
to access now that sixteen year old self, Like I
don't remember what it's like to be a teenager, you know,
and I don't want to. It was like awful, So
I think it was it happened the way it was
meant to. And then in terms of like what led
to Mavee, I mean, so there was American Rapture, which

(12:54):
was not called that until the very end, and then
I wrote a whole other book during grad school, well
this Vampire Trucker novel that was like six hundred pages long,
and it's just sitting in a drawer and I don't
know if anything will ever come of it. But I
shopped those books everywhere, like I probably got seventy plus

(13:15):
agent rejections on both. It was many years, and I
just got to the point it was COVID and I
was like, Okay, this may or may not be happening
for me, but like I want to. I love writing.
So I just wrote like my screw It book and
that sold very quickly and I was extremely lucky and

(13:37):
it kind of changed everything. So it's kind of like,
on the one hand, you look back and you think like,
oh God, I didn't need to be so miserable for
so long. But on the other hand, if I hadn't
been that miserable, I could not have been in the
headspace to write MAVE. So I think for me personally,
it kind of feels like it just all happens when

(13:59):
and how it's meant to.

Speaker 1 (14:01):
Yeah, no, Halo says hell yeah for script books. So
how how did you how was you writing process during
those books that you would you would sort of trying
to get off the ground, and you were you had
an original idea, and then you moved on to your
script book. What was your writing process like in those

(14:22):
moments and how has that changed over the course of
time for you?

Speaker 2 (14:29):
It I think it changes all the time.

Speaker 1 (14:31):
For me.

Speaker 2 (14:32):
So both the Vampire Book and American Rapture, I probably
started from a blank page, like I don't know, fifteen
times maybe more each, like I just knew. I think
I just was still learning how to write a book,
you know, And they were also like I other than
may Have, I actually write pretty complicated like road trip narratives,

(14:56):
and so it's a lot of moving pieces and I
don't necessarily like read or watch what I write, so
like I didn't really like like pandemic things or like
apocalyptic things, and I had to go like get an
education on that, which was great. I think what I'm learning.

(15:17):
I just finished my third book, renown copy of it,
so it's finally off my third published one, I should say,
fourth book. I think that what I'm learning is that
each book kind of like really demands something different. And
like with Mayve, I would sometimes like close the curtains
and pour whiskey in the middle of the day and

(15:38):
just like I found myself like moving at night mostly,
you know, like I would go out for like pre
sunrise walks, and there's something about that book that just
I needed that and only listen to certain types of
music and only sort of like interacted with people in
a certain way. With American Rapture, I ended up kind

(16:01):
of like revisiting places that were kind of difficult for
me younger and having to really confront a lot of
like you know, like young person wounds and truths and things.
And it seemed to require a bit more like sensitivity,
and like, I don't know, I had to be kind

(16:22):
of gentle with myself in a way that obviously may
it was very different. I don't know, I almost I
think I think every book kind of demands its own
like care, routine feeding and nurturing and whatever that looks like.
So I think, I say, I quote this all the time,

(16:43):
but I had a professor who once said, like, you
never learn how to write a book. You only learn
how to write the book you're working on right now.
And I think, like that's so true. Is just like you,
I don't know how to write a book. I'm relearning
every time.

Speaker 1 (17:00):
That's fascinating. Again, lots of people in the comments, Alo
again says my whole life for the school, which is
really love that. But yeah, and he says as well,
professor gives good advice. Yeah, it's good advice. So with
that in mind, like, what's a good day for you
writing White? And obviously you talked about, you know, needing

(17:21):
to do different things for different books, but do you
have like a set goal when you sit down at
the laptop and think, do you know what I need
to do this today in order to be consistent? And
obviously if you've written like six hundred page book that
is just sat on a shelf, for some people that
would be like, oh god, this is infuriating and I'm
not going to stop until this gets out in the world.
But obviously you just cracked on and written another book,

(17:44):
and that seems to be your process. So what is
a good day for you? What are you happy with
at the end of the day.

Speaker 2 (17:51):
I think when i'm you know, there are so many
different like when you get on the cycle of publication,
which I'm lucky to be on, very lucky, Like there
I do have days now that I do just only
promotion or like interviews or social media or like organizing

(18:13):
events or any of those kind of things. So those
those times exist more like clerical and administrative kind of stuff.
And then there are editing days. Editing is when I'm like,
I don't sleep, I don't see people, I barely take
care of I've become like a full like cave troll,
and just it's not I actually am like probably unhealthy

(18:36):
about it, but like I won't I won't sleep. I
just I have to get it done. And then the
writing is my favorite, like the initial drafting, and that
I'll do like I'll plot. Usually I'll plot the book
for like about a week. Sometimes it takes longer. With
May of it took like two days. And then I

(18:59):
try for like ten pages a day something roughly like that.
It's kind of like if you do ten pages a day,
five days a week, you know, it's two hundred pages
in a month. It's like pretty good. But I'm like
a vomit draft writer, you know. I don't I don't
get precious about sentences. I don't get precious about anything.
And I just figure like getting the thing done in

(19:20):
the first place is the hard part. And then going
back and seeing what works and what doesn't is uh,
that can come later. There I should say there's a
book I really like that I actually really like utilize
a lot anytime I'm stuck. It's called Anatomy of Story
by John Truby, and the they're like exercises all through it.

(19:42):
They can be quite tedious to actually do, but every
time I'm stuck, I pull it out and I'm like, okay, fine,
I'll try it, and then I'm like, oh, okay, that's
exactly what I needed. So I definitely recommend that.

Speaker 1 (19:56):
Yeah, I love that was good. That was partly leading
on to my next question, an't you because we I
have a lot of people who watch the show and
listen to the show that writers themselves or are looking
to start writing. So what would your advice be to them?
And what do you wish that you now know that
you knew at the start of your writing journey.

Speaker 2 (20:14):
I think the one thing I had going for me
coming into like being a writer is that I read
so much. And I like I was reading dystopian Ya
when I was in my early twenties, but I mean, like,
you know, minimum one hundred books a year, and I
think if there's something you like personally, I feel like

(20:37):
it's very useful to consume as much of it as
you can and find your favorite book and say, what
do I think makes this book really special? What's really
working about this? And then part of what I like
in this Truby exercises is that he kind of has
you like or you could, if you wanted, take your

(20:58):
favorite book and kind like break down the structure of
it and see exactly how it functions so that you
can start to say, Okay, I could use those same
more similar building blocks and then you know, tell my
own story through it. And I think that's very useful.
And then as far as just like fortitude, like I
would just say, like, uh, in the best possible way,

(21:22):
being miserable, like is a part of this job, and
I think to expect otherwise can lead to like existential
crises that I think are unnecessary. Like you're alone all day.
You are creating entire worlds full of characters who have
like wants and needs and histories and fears and whatever

(21:44):
else and often conflicting wants, you hope, right, and you're
creating like all these rules. It lights up like every
part of your brain at once and you're alone doing it,
so you're creating these worlds and living in the completely
separate from anything else happening in your life. It's hard

(22:04):
to do. It takes a lot of energy. People have
jobs and kids and animals and responsibilities and so, like,
I just think you got to be like prepared for
moments in which you think, why am I doing this?
You know, is this ever going to get easier? And
you know, the querying process is horrible. It is brutal,

(22:28):
and I don't think it should be as hard and
demoralizing as it is, but it is. And then like
one day it's done, you know, and somebody says yes,
and it's like it's so cliche, but it really only
takes one yes. Even with me, I couldn't get a
book agent. I found a manager here in La through

(22:51):
meeting someone at a bar, or someone else met someone
at a bar and he saw an Instagram post of
mine and he helped me find an aide. But even
with me, I've only one agent wanted to be a
part of it. And yeah, it really just takes one
person to and he was somebody, by the way, who
had passed on one of my other books. So you

(23:12):
just like never know.

Speaker 1 (23:14):
Yeah, definitely. I mean, like you say, it only takes
one person to take that chance and then your whole
career can take off. Definitely.

Speaker 2 (23:21):
Yeah, that so.

Speaker 1 (23:24):
Exactly. And the time is flying. So we are going
to get over to the second part of the show,
which is what's the story. So when we get back
from this video, CJ, what I'm going to ask you
to do is give us the elevator pitch for American Rapture.
If you're okay with that, Yeah, brilliant. Right, I'll play
this little video and then we'll get into what's the story?

(23:57):
So CJ, take it away. Can you give us the
elevator pitch for American Rapture? Please?

Speaker 2 (24:02):
Yes. A very sheltered sixteen year old Catholic girl in
the Midwest begins to come into her sexual awakening at
the same time as America explodes with a violent, sexually
propagating viral epidemic, and she has to cross the state

(24:25):
to reach her family and stay alive and learn about
the world very quickly, and also sort of grapple with
these feelings that are beginning inside her, which may or
may not be a sign of illness figuratively and literally.

Speaker 1 (24:44):
Yeah, brilliant, absolutely brilliant elevator pitch there, and if you've
not read it, you definitely need to go and get
a copy of this book. I was kind of as
soon as I saw the cover, I was like, this
is going to be a book I'm going to enjoy.
And then I started in people talking about it in
terms of like there was the stand was mentioned, and
there was like American Gods from the critical side of

(25:08):
their take on America, and then the whole religious aspect
of it as well. I was like, yeah, I need
this book. As soon as this comes out, I'm getting it,
and it doesn't disappoint. It's absolutely brilliant. If any of
those things sound like your cupetique, even just one of them,
you need to go and pick up American Rapture. And
so with that in mind, obviously you talked before about
having the initial idea but it wasn't quite ready. What

(25:31):
did you sort of tweak out in the version that
we have now that you didn't have previously. I know
you briefly mentioned about the sort of coming of age
and being able to write from a different perspective, but
was there things that were always in your mind that
have stayed and things that maybe have disappeared as a
result of you coming back to it at a later stage.

Speaker 2 (25:52):
Yeah, for sure, and thank you for your kind words.
I think religion, there are a few things we can
talk about, you know, like it. I did find it
hard to narrow it down. I had at one point
more of a possession element in the story, and my
editor was like, why are we going over here? Like

(26:13):
I get it, but we don't need that's not this book.
And she was right. So there's a lot like that.
I ended up like really rounding out the in particular
like the parents later on, or at least like the
mother and her story, like I ended up adding quite
a bit to that later. And I revisited a lot

(26:36):
of these places. If if you do havepen to read
the book, and if you're ever like in the American Midwest,
like I highly recommend going to a House on the Rock,
which it you know, is in American Gods too. But
but all these places. The Cheese Castle is real, although
it's in a different spot than I put it, But
there are just kind of amazing, like very very American

(27:00):
locations that I think we It's like the double billboard image.
I use it a lot through the book. But I
think it's like the perfect metaphor for America when talking
about these things, which is like we always have like
a billboard on the side of the highway that'll say
like Triple X store this exit, or that will advertise
some kind of like you know, adultery, dating app or

(27:24):
I don't whatever, like have an affair, and then you'll
have one right below it or next to it or
behind it that's like sinners go to hell, you know,
Jesus saves there's only one blah blah blah. So that
those two billboards side by side is like American culture
to me. It's like we teach our young people that

(27:45):
their whole value and worth lies in their sexuality, but
like it's also their greatest sin and shame and they
have to like cover it up and repress it in
order to not like incite violence against them or any
unwanted attention or anything else. So, yeah, it turns out
ten years later I still had things to say about that.

(28:06):
But did I answer the question.

Speaker 1 (28:09):
Yeah, No, definitely. Halo says, that's so accurate. It's funny
you sh'd mention that billboard team because that obviously does
stick out in my mind when Sophie's I'm not going
to give too much away, but stranded in a difficult situation,
and she does look at those billboards, and again I'm
not going to go into it too much, but exactly
what you just said there about the contrast between the

(28:30):
two sort of messages really does stand out. So I
suppose the question from a writing front is like, obviously,
you've got so much in American culture to talk about,
and this book does feel a little bit like a
critique of a lot of American culture, So how did
you decide to what you were going to sort of
critique in that respect and what you're kind of going

(28:52):
to leave out? If that makes sense.

Speaker 2 (28:55):
Yeah, I think I tried to keep it kind of
kept to like obviously a fictionalized version, but like something
closer to my experience, which is just like I grew
up very Catholic, not anywhere near a sheltered as Sophie
and I had. I would say, probably much better parents,

(29:19):
but you know, uh, the church when I was a kid,
and I know it's a lot of people, it works
for a lot of people, but like I was terrified
all the time in childhood, and even even like getting
into adulthood of this idea that any thought that I
ever had or question or anything was heard by like God, Jesus, Angels, demons, devil,

(29:47):
and also there were consequences for any thought. I think
that is like for me, it was a very difficult
way to move through the world, because we are imperfect
humans who have all kinds of thoughts and certainly sexually,
and it's just to feel that there's something inherently wrong
with you for you know, having any sort of thought,

(30:09):
and then also that it's kind of like recorded somehow
in this like indelible way in the universe, and there's
going to be great consequence. I think it's a not
to be too heavy handed about it, but I think
it's a beautiful way to subdue people and also to
kind of lessen their power and also reinforce the idea

(30:33):
that they might need to then go to a father,
a priest, a bishop, whoever, all the way to the top, right,
But you're not absolved on your own. So yeah, it
was kind of that hierarchical structure that I was trying
to kind of speak about and say that maybe ultimately

(30:55):
with this book, I'm saying this like life is hard,
and we live with mortality and that is like a
cruel and difficult thing, and sin and shame are not
really maybe things that we need to spend our time
on because maybe like they don't need to exist, you know.
So that's what I chose to focus on. But yeah,

(31:17):
America is a broad topic. We have a lot going
on here, and my kind of project as a writer
is like, I do kind of want to catalog this
place in whatever way I can, and I'm kind of
moving through state by state right now, so we'll see
if I can pick up my pace a little bit.

Speaker 1 (31:36):
Nice. Yeah, it definitely sounds exciting. Halo again stas ex
Catholic Gill is stronger than Bokush. Yeah, I definitely feel
like with this book, CJ. Like, I've read a few
books recently that have been like, and I say this
in the best way, difficult reads in parts because they're

(31:56):
so brutal. Like I read a book called Crooked Little
Vein that I thought, wow, this is this is like
a writer just not holding back on a page. But
some of the scenes in American Rapture, even just talking
about it now, I'm seeing them again and I remember
reading them thinking, whoa that is brutal, like in terms

(32:17):
of the sort of level of unease that you create
in the reader when obviously they're fearful for Sophie in
the situations that she's that she's in. And then when
you think some writers go into it and you think
they're not going to describe that, they just there'll be
a little cutaway scene and then no, you just go
full in. So I suppose my question in and around

(32:40):
this is like, how how do you do that? How
do you write horror in such a convincing way and
not necessarily pull back and leave it to the reasoner's imagination?
How do you describe it and do it so well?

Speaker 2 (32:55):
I don't know, because everything scares me. I think there
is truth to that. I mean I think I did.
I grew up afraid of the world. But also like, uh,
you know, like anyone with an imagination. I mean, like
I have nightmares. I think, I think for whatever reason,

(33:17):
I also don't talk about this a lot, but I
have I like like diagnosed OCD, and so like it's uh,
thinking of like the worst possible thing that could happen
in any given moment is like very easy for my
brain to do, which is very lucky for this job,
because that's basically what it is, is like, what's the
worst thing that could happen in my characters right now?

(33:39):
And I find it to be a very like cathartic,
useful way to channel that kind of thinking so that
I can kind of move through my life in a
more like balanced way and not be thinking that so
much when I leave the house or whatever else.

Speaker 1 (33:58):
Yeah, and with the virus, obviously that's going through this book.
Obviously it's very unique in terms of what it does
to people and how they react. And so I suppose
my question is what made you go down that route
as opposed to having just the sort of standard zombie
mode or you know, trying to eat you rather than

(34:20):
obviously what happens in American rapture.

Speaker 2 (34:23):
I think it just kind of made sense to me, right,
like like part of the fear with sexuality when you're
growing up and anytime is like illness, right, And then
you know within the church the idea of like desire
as the sort of illness too, And so I started
reading about a lot of like sexually transmitted diseases and infections,

(34:46):
and like interestingly with syphilis, it's been a long time
since I did this research. So I might sound like
a total idiot now, but there I was finding things
about like brain lesions, and obviously any kind of issue
in your brain is gonna, can, you know, affect behavior.
I liked the idea that in syphilis there can be

(35:11):
a hand rash, and obviously, like stigmata, it's pretty on
the nose, but it was like it was fun kind
of playing with these ideas. And obviously a virus just
wants to stay alive like anything else, so the idea
of a sexually propagating virus like did make sense to me.

(35:31):
And assault is probably a lot of people's, you know,
one of their greater fears, so it's it was just
a way to externalize like all of the sort of
terrifying things about like learning to be a human in
a human body when you're that age, and to interact
with other humans with human bodies and think like do

(35:53):
I have control over my own? Might someone try to
overpower me? What do I want? What do I not want?
Like all of that is really terrifying, and especially growing
up in like certain religious settings. So I just sort
of made it the monster externally that I think it

(36:13):
already kind of is internally.

Speaker 1 (36:17):
And again with this book, obviously Sophie, it's it's kind
of becoming of age novel as well. So how do
you how do you do that as a writer in
terms of like drip feeding that evolution of a character
over a number of pages and knowing like, oh, she
needs to experience this to develop a little bit more here,

(36:39):
and this is a good moment for me to expand
her horizons here. And you know she's going to learn
this from this moment, and she's going to feel more
confident about herself and she's going to realize like she
can do it, and she can do these things. So
how do you navigate that as an author?

Speaker 2 (36:56):
That's a good question. I think I just think it's
my feet, you know. I think that's at least for me,
that the pacing, And that's the one part that I
don't know that I get particularly like academic about. It's
like it's like when you close your eyes and you
just sort of like extend invisible feelers, Like that's kind

(37:19):
of that feeling to me. I like that part. I
like kind of moving things around. But you know, editors
help and beta readers help, and I think every now
and then like somebody you know on my team or
something will read and be like, Okay, this just came
out of nowhere, and you're like, oh oops, okay, and

(37:40):
then it's I find it easier and easier to figure
out where to see things early on. But I do
to the just grain of salt. Like I get criticized
by readers who don't like my work that I have
slow beginnings of my books, but I personally just esthetically
like that, Like I like reading books that sort of

(38:01):
have a slow I shouldn't say slow, have a have
a longer build up to the big, big action.

Speaker 1 (38:09):
Hmm, yeah, I mean I'm just going to say right away,
those readers are wrong on one of the key values
obviously that you have in the book is Sophie's love
that she has for a brother and what she's willing
to do in order to reignite with him. And again
not going to go into any spoilers, but why was

(38:31):
like family love such a big thing that you wanted
to include, and obviously sibling relationships as well.

Speaker 2 (38:40):
Well. I am an only child or I have step
siblings now, but I didn't growing up have any siblings,
and so for me, that always seemed like some kind
of like beautiful thing. But I think in general, from
a craft perspective, I think it's very important for protagonist

(39:00):
or any character to have things that they love. I
personally am not interested in writing like nihilistic characters like
even May I like really has things that she loves
and cares about, because I'm like a very passionate person
and I like passionate people, and I'm interested in someone
if they're interested in whatever they're interested in. So for Sophie,

(39:22):
I just I needed her to have something to live
for and to fight for, and somebody you love who
sees you and who is kind of like potentially your
partner in like a difficult situation, you know, which would
be growing up in their house together. I mean, what
more is that or what more is there than that
in this world? You know? So I gave her kind

(39:46):
of an ally and someone to like cheer her on
from Afar a little bit, I think, and someone to
love because she didn't really get the opportunity in her
upbringing to like love too much besides like him and books.

Speaker 1 (40:01):
Yeah, no, brilliant love that all right. So again we're
flying for it, but we're going to go to the
final part of the show, which is Community question Time,
So there's plenty of people watching. If you've got questions
for CJ, please send them in because the next twenty
minutes is when we're going to ask those. So I'm
going to play this quick little video and then we
will ask some of those questions. So CJ, I'm going

(40:40):
to ask a few staple questions while the questions come in.
And one of the first staple questions that we have
on the show is if you could take any character
from fiction and make that character your own, which character
would you choose and what would you do?

Speaker 2 (40:51):
Then I would love at one point to write any
kind of Star Trek novelization and any original series character
I would have a ball with brilliant.

Speaker 1 (41:05):
Yeah, I love that. That's a good answer. We've never
had that before Star Trek. Yeah no, I mean, was
it Amazon recently that produced a new series?

Speaker 2 (41:14):
So maybe there's Here's the best thing about Trek is
like there's literally always like two or three series at
any given time playing. It's amazing, there's always.

Speaker 1 (41:24):
More exactly lots of people saying again, yes, Star Trek,
So lots of fans of that again, send you questions
in now, because this is just time that we can
ask those questions directly to the CJ. Another question that
we have that's a staple is if you could change
the ending to any fiction, what would you change the

(41:45):
end to and what would you do with that.

Speaker 2 (41:49):
I recently saw a movie that was very good and
doesn't need a change, and they did a great job,
and so just whatever that's worth. Alien Romulus. Did you
see it?

Speaker 1 (42:00):
I haven't seen it.

Speaker 2 (42:01):
When it came out, like last year, I thought it
was so good, I'm spoiling can I mean, it's the ending.
I thought it's perfect. Whoever worked on it, if you're like,
ever come across this, you crushed it? Had I like,
if I were doing a similar story, there's this amazing
alien human spoiler everyone okay, but there's this amazing like

(42:24):
alien human hybrid that comes about, and it becomes clear
that it is probably gonna be like the big baddie
of the universe, Like this is the pinnacle, this is
the top of the food chain, and I think that
just should have been the ending. But there's a victorious
human ending because that's typically how those movies go. But

(42:46):
I thought it was I just thought it was the
best like Final Boss we possibly could have and I'm
okay with a not happy ending.

Speaker 1 (42:56):
Nice. Yeah, we don't always need to beat the Final Boss. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (43:00):
Yeah, it's a great, great movie.

Speaker 1 (43:02):
Yeah that sounds good. Good answer. And so we have
got some questions coming in. They all seem Star Trek related.
Let's go, which is great, but who would you go
drinking with? And Klingon's rooms and ros.

Speaker 2 (43:21):
And Bajorans Klingons for sure, I don't want to eat
the worms, but like you know, they're the best time
of everyone.

Speaker 1 (43:30):
And again we have another question about Star Trek episode.
Favorite Star Trek episode and why is it in the light?

Speaker 2 (43:41):
Amazing question? Uh, impossible to pick favorites, but I do
love obviously, like Arena in the original series is really great.
And then there was a kind of response to Arena
called Down I think it was called Down in Enterprise.
That is so underrated and it is really really great
and it's an They're one of those sort of like
interspecies communication amazing episodes, I think.

Speaker 1 (44:07):
Yeah, And this is from C. J. Agart. So he
is the the he is the host of the show,
but he's unwell and on the scream but he's still
chipping in with some questions, So he said, who would
be your horror idol to write a book.

Speaker 2 (44:22):
With if she were alive? And Rice also like Stephen
King obviously also I hope you feel better.

Speaker 1 (44:33):
Yeah, I mean yeah, things still knocking around, so you
never know.

Speaker 2 (44:42):
Maybe you never know. I got a lot of good
horror writer friends these days. I wonder if we'll ever
end up any of us collaborating on something.

Speaker 1 (44:50):
So from your like inner circle of horror writer friends,
and if we expand the question a little bit, if
you had to write with one of them, Let's say
you did a Mary Shelley thing and you went away
for the weekend and your publishers said, you've got weekend,
you need to bash out a book. Who would you be?
Who would your partner in crime be in that moment?

Speaker 2 (45:09):
Can I pick two?

Speaker 1 (45:10):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (45:13):
I write with I write and hang out with Liz
Karen and Chuck Tingle a lot. So I think I
think we could the three of us come up with
something pretty.

Speaker 1 (45:23):
Wild, nice, brilliant. Love that. So again, keep the questions
coming in that these have been great, and obviously ask
about American rapture as well, because that would be good.
I know, we mentioned Star Trek, but.

Speaker 2 (45:37):
Four Star Trek episodes too, you know, beautiful writing in
that show.

Speaker 1 (45:43):
Yeah, exactly, that would be cool. One of those staple
questions that we have is a little bit morbid. But
you're on your deathbed, you're looking back at your writing career.
What would you be happy with? What is success to you?

Speaker 2 (45:59):
I don't know if this is the most annoying answer ever,
but like, honestly, I feel like I've got it, you know,
I get to I have experienced what it feels like
to walk into bookstores and see my books on shelves,
and that to me is like all there is, you know,
feel like nothing beats that feeling. I will say, if

(46:20):
anyone's like on this journey, all the things sort of
change and things that I thought would be like so
would feel a certain way. Maybe don't or you know,
but the one thing that never gets any less and
never feels like work, and never feels like anything other
than just this miraculous, wonderful thing is getting to see

(46:43):
my book on shelves and in this many I mean,
I guess I've only been published for a few years,
but it hasn't gone away yet.

Speaker 1 (46:53):
No, definitely, when You're write in such brilliant books. It's
definitely not going to go anyway away anytime soon. Russia.
Thank you for this question. What is your personal worst
horror and is it normal to be frightened ET something?

Speaker 2 (47:09):
I'm afraid of ET And I was just talking about
this with Liz Karen the other day. Yeah, no, like
really scared me.

Speaker 1 (47:18):
Yeah, And that's why you said that question, because I've
said multiple times on this show I was terrified of ET. Really. Yeah,
I've I've been able to watch it as an adult
and it freaks me out.

Speaker 2 (47:31):
Like freaks me out too. I just I think I
feel sad for him in a way, you know, like
I almost think like that's the thing of fears, Like
it gets so tied up with the other feelings. That's
so funny. Personal worst horror, I mean, I'm not just
saying this because we're like talking about American rapture, but

(47:51):
like possession stuff has always been very very frightening to me,
Like sort of losing control over your mental state and
your body is not not my favorite.

Speaker 1 (48:07):
With that and an American rapture, one of the scenes
that I keep coming back to is obviously your parents
are meant to protect you, and that scene early doors,
and again I'm not going to go into it, but
it really did stick with me. And all day I've
been thinking about that scene because obviously I knew this
interview was coming up as well, and I was like, yeah,

(48:30):
just that having that idea that the people who are
supposed to protect you in your home maybe don't protect
you so much. And even worse, like like you said before,
in terms of what's the worst thing that can happen,
if you'd have asked me a million times, what's the
worst thing that can happen, I would have never thought
of that with that idea, And what happened really, to me.

Speaker 2 (48:52):
That's like the worst. I mean, I think none of
us are exempt from I think what I was trying
to say, uh, is that we're all human beings in
these incredibly fallible human bodies, and so we're all susceptible
to most of the same things, you know, and we're

(49:14):
all like equally imperfect, including our parents, which is terrifying.
And yeah, that scene is.

Speaker 1 (49:21):
I won't spoil it, No, don't spuy it. It's worth reading.
Go and read it. Ross says we're both wrong for
being afraid of bet but Ross. There's multiple scenes in
that film terrifying. The one where he's running through the
corn field being chased, the one where he's in the bath,
like they are just.

Speaker 2 (49:42):
Like really scares the shit out of me. That's not
supposed to be scary. Is Willy Wonka?

Speaker 1 (49:47):
Oh yeah, he's creepy.

Speaker 2 (49:48):
I don't like it at all. Any really really meets
me uncomfortable.

Speaker 1 (49:53):
Yeah, and then Tim Burton did it with Johnny Depp
and just trying to elevate the creepiness and like, don't
need that, Timm, We.

Speaker 2 (49:59):
Had it ready. Also, like everybody everything about that movie
was insane, but the grandparents just sort of like staying
in the bed like bossing everyone around. I mean the
whole thing was just crazy.

Speaker 1 (50:13):
Yeah, you need Tara when you got rolled out. So
this is another question from Anya. If your main character,
so Sophie from American Ranch Up, is against Catness in
a competition, your choice of competition, who would win.

Speaker 2 (50:29):
Catus would win everything unless it had to do with
like being bookish. That is literally the only thing that
Sophie would win. Catus is tougher.

Speaker 1 (50:43):
Yeah, I mean people are saying about clowns as well.
Clowns being scary. Yeah, that is a factor. And yeah
Ross has also said, but yeah, a lot of rolled
out is adults shorts are very terrifying. Yeah, they absolutely
are so with Oar in mind. Then, obviously you mentioned briefly.

(51:03):
I don't know how much you can talk about this,
but your next book is written you talk about going
on an American road show. Perhaps, can you give us
any sort of insight into that without going too much
into detail.

Speaker 2 (51:16):
Yeah, I'm like officially allowed to talk about it as
of like a couple of weeks ago. This is exciting.
It's called Headlights and it is my Colorado winter book.
Goes Cannibals detective novel has a lot I guess I

(51:38):
could like kind of people start to come to consciousness
on the side of the highway, naked, barefoot and wearing
the skin of someone they've never met, with no memory
of how they got there, and with a hair tied

(51:59):
around in their tongues. And our main character is the
detective who has to come back and finally solve the case. Maybe.

Speaker 1 (52:09):
Wow, I mean that's terrifying but also amazing in the
same breath. I can't wait for that. Brilliant. We love
an exclusive on the show, and it's not an exclusive
because you've been allowed to talk about it for two weeks.

Speaker 2 (52:22):
But this.

Speaker 1 (52:27):
Yeah, well yeah, people again say say the same thing. Well,
that sounds a whole lot of WTF but brilliant at
the same time epic, and so yeah, we're really looking
forward to that as well.

Speaker 2 (52:42):
Thank you. I hope people like it. It's totally very different.
I have a male protagonist, like we kind of I
just wanted to kind of do do something totally new.
So I'm curious to see how it will be received
by readers.

Speaker 1 (52:59):
Do you have any then, obviously with the success that
you've had so far, when you're releasing the next book,
does it sort of play on your mind, because obviously
you talked about the OCD aspect and that can happen.
Does that often come out when you're just about to
release a new book or you've handed it in.

Speaker 2 (53:16):
It did with Mayvee An American Rapture. But I think
now it's like anything, it's just you get more comfortable
with it. I think now you'll see if you read
the third book, it's about some really big ideas more
than the other two. And I was dealing with a

(53:38):
lot of grief stuff just from my personal life that
I kind of was working out in this book. And
I think for me, just getting to finish this one
like felt so good and I feel pretty at peace
with like, folks are going to have. Everyone's going to
have their favorite and least favorite, right, And if you're
putting out a book a year, which I am supposed

(53:58):
to the next however many years, you know, it's just
at a certain point you just got to like move
on and just hope that it resonates with someone, because
that's kind of the ultimate. That's the dream. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (54:14):
Absolutely, Halo says, you say, Cannibal isn't take my money.
Ross says, you say, take my money. I say take
my kidness at all. Ye take a lot. No, Absolutely
love that and it sounds amazing. Obviously, I think a
question off the back of that. Then you're talking about
the idea of doing this American road trip, and you've

(54:36):
talked about having more ideas and more things that you're
going to try and discuss. We had somebody on the show.
It was actually a Harrogut and we were interviewing somebody
I can't remember. Chris. If you're still watching in a chat,
let me know who it was, but she lived in America,
and she said that the landscape and the things that

(54:57):
are happening, you kind of see the novels that are
about that time in about five years time. So have
you got ideas that are going around your mind from
what you're experiencing at the moment that you think, Oh,
I'm definitely going to have a little look at that
in the future.

Speaker 2 (55:15):
I think that in terms of like what's happening in
our country, I think it's all going to be in
every book a little bit. My third book has to
do with ecosystems and the ways in which we interact
in the national parks and all of that, and land development.

(55:41):
I think it's always going to be everywhere. In terms
of like looking at it head on, it's a pretty
rough time over here. We're probably like as divided as
we've ever been, and I think it's kind of like
we have whiplash every day, you know. So in terms

(56:03):
of like being able to really write about it, I
think she's probably right, and probably it does kind of
show up five years later. I don't know that I
would be conscious of doing it, but it is such
I mean, it's it's like the air that we're breathing.
You know, it's everywhere, it's it's where we are.

Speaker 1 (56:19):
Yeah, attic a lot, Thank you, Iget, that's who it
was a lot. So yeah, is there anything that you've
thought about writing that you have not yet written that
sort of like Stephen King said this himself. I think
when he was attempting to stand the first time round

(56:39):
that he didn't feel he was ready for it. He
had the idea, but he didn't kind of know how
to put it together, and he wasn't ready for it.
Is there a bulk out there for you that's like
on the back burner because you've thought the idea, it's
really good, but you just not ready yet.

Speaker 2 (56:54):
I've got one some I'm kind of going state by state.
My Oregon book is definitely like I think I need
to mature of it to finish it. But also I
just it's another behemoth, which my second and third are,
so I need a little break from that. But the
Vampire Trucker book I wrote before too, which is my
Massachusetts book. If I were to, if I were to revisit,

(57:18):
it's like I need to be in a certain headspace
to do it. But one day I want to but
that's my big If there were like one singular head
on America book, that's the one. So I think I will.
I'm going to go back to it one day, and
that's like three perspectives. It's a big book.

Speaker 1 (57:35):
Nice. Yeah, I mean it does sound amazing. Vampire Trucker book.
I'm pretty sure we talked about vampires at some point
on the on the show in recent weeks, and we
have mentioned that idea. Because you've got that whole the
truck and narrative running through it sounds Yeah, sounds brilliant
wrote for it. And that's what he says as well.
Vampire Trucker book sounds awesome if you ever excavate it.

(57:56):
So we hope that you do because I remember reading
one of your reviews actually for American Rapture before I
read it, and they said this book was amazing. The
only thing that disappoints me is that CJ is early
on in a career and there's not a whole backlog
for me.

Speaker 2 (58:11):
To I've got to pick it up. I think I
need to start just doing a lot of drugs or something. Also,
I'm sorry speaking of I've been like mainlining coffee today,
So if I was a little like chaotic. I apologize,
but it's I've enjoyed talking.

Speaker 1 (58:29):
No, it's been perfect, thank you. And so before you go,
we've just got about forty d seconds or whatever. Can
you just tell people where they can find you on
all the socials and where they can pick up American Rapture.

Speaker 2 (58:40):
Yeah, Instagram is best. My handle is Siege the Moment
and American Rapture is I think it's I think it's
everywhere there is in the UK. The special edition that
I think everyone can order from Black Crow Books. If
you haven't seen it, it's unbelievable, like sprayed edges art

(59:01):
on the end pages. It like a really kind of
incredible faded American flag killer. And yeah, if you're in
the States, I'm about to do nine eight or nine
tour stops for the paperback released on Tuesday, Brilliant.

Speaker 1 (59:16):
We have a lot of listeners from the States, So
if you're in and around, go and pick that up.
And we'd love to see your little videos or your
little pictures of you picking up American Matcher all meeting CJ,
because that'd be great. Right well, thank you very much, everybody.
I'm going to end the show there hopefully I get
it right because I played the exit video twice last week.

(59:36):
But yeah, it's been an absolute pleasure talking to you, CJ.
We're very much looking forward to more things from you
in the future, and yeah everyone's saying lots of really
good things as well. So thank you everybody, and we
will see you at the same time next week. Anything else, CJ, No,
that's it.

Speaker 2 (59:51):
Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (59:53):
Thank you. This is a bit then where we just
wave and then the video place. Fine.

Speaker 2 (01:00:07):
Bish

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