How Peter Gibbons Went from 9–5 to Viking Bestseller.

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Hello everybody, and welcome to the Writing Community Chat show.
We've got a special episode for you on a Monday night,
as we're as opposed to by usual Friday night, and
just like a Friday night, I am still slightly here
waiting for my co host mister Hooley, who is notoriously
late for the show. But yes, it's going to be
an excellent show with our guests.

Speaker 2 (00:27):
Tonight.

Speaker 1 (00:27):
We've got a guest who has been writing sagas of
Viking series, which I love. Not I haven't read his
books yet, but I'm definitely we've been chatting pretty sure
about that. They're going to be on my TBR very soon.
And yeah, he has won in twenty twenty two the
Kindle Storyteller Award, which we've talked about in the show recently.

(00:47):
You may have seen a couple of our ads, and yeah,
we're going to be getting into that. So I on
the show right now. I'm going to leave Chris Hooley
a live message to see if he realizes this is
a first as well. Hello, Chris, do you realize we've
just gone live? The show is at half past seven.
I hope you do realize that, As you said, do
you realize the time and you need to hurry up.

Speaker 2 (01:09):
So there you go. So there's my message to him.

Speaker 3 (01:12):
Live.

Speaker 2 (01:13):
You all heard that, and we'll hold him to a camp.

Speaker 1 (01:16):
So let me get Tonight's guest on straightaway, and that
way you can get involved with the conversation as well,
and he will turn up when he likes to turn up.
So Tonight's Guest is living proof that passion, perseverance, and
good a good Viking battle scene can change your life.
He's the author behind the action packed Viking Blood and
Blade Saga, the Saxon Warrior series, and the Chronicles of

(01:38):
Arthur and in twenty twenty two, he was Crammed the
winner of the prestigious Kindle Storyteller Award, taking home at
twenty thousand pounds price. He discovered Kindle Direct publishing during
the pandemic, and in just over a year, between raising
three kids and working full time in financial services, he
wrote and published four historical fiction novels that captured the

(01:59):
imaginations readers worldwide. He's a fan of Bernard Cornwell and
David Gemmel and all things epic and Tonight. He's here
to share how self publishing helped him unlock the author
career he's always dreamed of. So please give a nice,
warm welcome to the brilliant Peter Gibbons.

Speaker 3 (02:15):
Hello, Peter, Hey there, thanks being great, great to be on.

Speaker 4 (02:20):
Thanks for having me.

Speaker 2 (02:21):
Oh, you're very welcome. Thank you for joining us.

Speaker 1 (02:23):
I can't wait to chat about everything you've been through
because it's it's a wonderful journey.

Speaker 4 (02:28):
Thanks.

Speaker 1 (02:29):
Yeah, how are you doing today? How is how is
the How are you dealing with the heat?

Speaker 4 (02:34):
Good?

Speaker 3 (02:35):
I'm suffering with it, but enjoy it and suffering it
while I'm working, but enjoying being so sat out in
it with a drink, if you know what I mean.

Speaker 4 (02:43):
Just working weather, let's put it that way.

Speaker 1 (02:46):
It certainly not and we talked about this just before
you came on. But you're sat in a wonderful writing shed,
which I'm very jealous of.

Speaker 2 (02:53):
Have you kitted that out with air, carm I mean
that's not a very British thing to do.

Speaker 3 (02:57):
No, well, I've kitted it out with the most fru
dementary air CONNN to man, which is one of them
kind of twenty quid white fans kind of just blows
the hot air around the blows the hot air around
the room.

Speaker 5 (03:09):
Now.

Speaker 1 (03:10):
Yeah, definitely, So for all the people watching and the
people watch this back and listen back. Whereabout say you're
coming from where you're joining us from tonight?

Speaker 3 (03:19):
I live in killed Air, County killed Air, in Ireland
with my wife and three children, in a small village
called Calverstown. But before that, I was born and grew
up in Warrenton in the Northwest. But I've been living
in Ireland now for about eighteen years something like that,
and I'm desperately clinging to my.

Speaker 4 (03:40):
Original accent.

Speaker 1 (03:42):
Yeah, I bet is that an accent the local struggle
to understand when you first moved there?

Speaker 3 (03:48):
Not really, because I think we up north we kind
of talk quite slow, whereas the Irish people kind of
talk quite fast.

Speaker 4 (03:54):
So it's kind of it's not a hard one. It's
not a hard one to understand.

Speaker 2 (03:59):
Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 1 (04:00):
So I'm always intrigued to note that, you know, as
a writer, whether it be an Indiana author or traditionally
published or highly successful, traditionally published New York Times bestseller,
if they engage in like a local writing community, and
the answer generally is no, But is that the case
for you?

Speaker 6 (04:17):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (04:17):
It is the case.

Speaker 3 (04:18):
Yeah. When I when I first started out, I engaged
with kind of an online writing community, like a writing group,
because you know, in your first kind of when you
first start going, it's a strange thing, isn't it.

Speaker 4 (04:31):
It's a very personal thing.

Speaker 3 (04:32):
And your big worry is that what you're writing is
rubbish and you don't want to you don't want to
show it to everyone. So that was a really good
way of kind of you know, you'd send a chapter,
say the six people in the group, somebody would read
it and give your feedback and stuff like that, and
you would do the same for them. But in the
early days, that really kind of helped me to understand
that what I was writing was rubbish and then start

(04:55):
tweaking it and making it better. But no, there's no
kind of there's no writing groups here that I'm like.
There are probably is, but there's none that I'm aware
of or that I participate in.

Speaker 4 (05:05):
Unfortunately.

Speaker 1 (05:07):
Yeah, like I said, I think that is the case
for most people. And you know, being authors, we often
spend a lot of time in these seats and in
the shed, so mingling is not always like the case
for that. So the online sort of communities, you know,
what the show is built on, is kind of the
way to go. So for your time engaging with those
online communities, were there any sort of real good bits

(05:28):
of advice you remember from that community that helped you.

Speaker 4 (05:32):
Yeah, I think there was.

Speaker 3 (05:33):
I think some of the key bits were around. The
big thing for me in the early days was then
the naivety of wanting to have a go at writing something,
but without any kind of skill or experience in the craft.
So I always thought I had good ideas for stories,

(05:55):
so I'd write something and it would just be a
mess in terms of no plan or structure or anything
like that.

Speaker 4 (06:02):
And through the writing community, I understood quickly that I
needed to learn more.

Speaker 3 (06:09):
And it was on the back of that then really
I had I wrote like what was then kind of
a first quart of my first book, Viking Blood and Blade.
But it was like one hundred and fifty thousand words,
kind of crazy, kind of meandering mess with like seven
point of view characters and stuff. And I actually got
I actually got a year paid for a structural edit

(06:32):
on that manuscript, and that was what really changed everything
for me, because the structure edit came back and she
was kind of like, this is good, this is good,
but all these things are bad. So cut this out,
cut that out, cut that out, and I ended up
whittling that down then to about one hundred and ten
thousand words and cut in a good only having two
point of view characters. But then understand it, I'd never

(06:54):
been exposed or understood what story structure was, what the
three act structure is, is what saved the cat is
or any of those kind of things. So I was
just right in a way, you know. So that was
really the big game changer for me, was understanding you know,
plot and story structure. And once I understood that that
was a big that was a big game changer. But

(07:15):
I wouldn't have got there without the kind of writing community,
you know.

Speaker 1 (07:19):
Yeah, there's a lot of people out there that would
really get taken back by that thought of Hi, Chris,
by that thought of having to restructure and take a
lot of that work away. You know, how did you
first feel when that information was brought to you and
then did you use it as like a constructive force
to take that forward or was it a bit kind
of nerve wracking?

Speaker 3 (07:39):
Yeah, Hi, Chris, I kind of at first I felt
bad because I'd spent so much time writing this thing,
and I thought it was kind of a great or
an interesting story with good characters and all that, but
it was all over the place, you know, like they
go from here to there and they do that.

Speaker 4 (07:58):
There was no real kind of structure. So at first
I was kind.

Speaker 3 (08:01):
Of gutted to get the feedback, but then it was
really kind of a launchpad then to start learning about
all these bits and pieces and learning about structure. Yeah,
chopped up that first book then and made it work,
but then used that as a platform for all my
subsequent releases. So that was just a massive, a massive
game changer for me in terms of planning. Instead of

(08:23):
just being a pants it was more like planning then,
not not rigidly, but making sure that.

Speaker 4 (08:28):
I kind of followed.

Speaker 3 (08:29):
So I had an act one and Act two, Act
three that I had twists in the right places, that
I had an inciting incident, and that had all these
these things that you have to have to keep people's
keep people's interest in the story, you.

Speaker 2 (08:41):
Know, absolutely, Hi, Chris, Hello, how are you? Yeah?

Speaker 4 (08:47):
Good?

Speaker 2 (08:47):
How are you doing?

Speaker 4 (08:49):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (08:49):
So I thought I was on time?

Speaker 2 (08:52):
Ah, yes, half past seven, were.

Speaker 5 (08:55):
Starting, Yeah, which is half an hour earlier. But I'm
very glad to be here, and I'm very glad to
hear Peter's nice northern accent. It's nice to hear. It's
very comforted to me.

Speaker 2 (09:10):
Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 1 (09:12):
We were just talking about the start of his writing
really and using the writing community online. So what we
have established is that Peter during COVID set up this
amazing writing shed that you set in, and we chatted
about that before we start the show. So, Peter, do
you want to let everybody know how you started that
writing shd up? And you know, obviously it's been a

(09:34):
big asset for your writing since.

Speaker 3 (09:36):
Yeah, So I was able obviously I won the Kinder
Storyteller Award and it was the prize money from that
that really that funded the building. But once before that,
I was kind of writing out the kitchen table before work,
and it was after I won the award then I
quit my job and this got this kind of got
the cabin bill and really became a lot more professional.

(09:58):
So since then I've been been full time, so I
kind of sit out here all day on my own
making up stories, you know, which.

Speaker 4 (10:05):
Which is great.

Speaker 3 (10:07):
But without winning the award, I would never have been
able to get that going because it's not an easy
thing to go to your other half and ask them
to invest savings in a shed for you to go
out and indulge your writing dreams in when there are
other things that need doing, like bathrooms need replacing and

(10:28):
kitchens need updating.

Speaker 4 (10:30):
And stuff like that.

Speaker 3 (10:31):
You know. So it's great to win the award and
have that prize to be able to do that.

Speaker 5 (10:36):
Yeah, COVID, Yeah, I mean I think I put that
three stone on in COVID and that was about the
only thing that I managed to do. Peter, What what
made you then take that massive jump because you said
there about quitting your job building the shed, getting down
to it every day, every day breast as I'm just

(10:57):
going to start writing. What what made you take that
lead of faith?

Speaker 4 (11:01):
Well, i'd written the book.

Speaker 3 (11:04):
The novel that won the Storyteller Award was my fourth novel.

Speaker 4 (11:09):
So but it was called King of War.

Speaker 3 (11:10):
So by that time I'd obviously written three and they
were going quite well on on on the KDP service,
they were kind of they were selling well. But at
the time I had a job where I worked for
a big financial services company and I was responsible for
kind of international sales, so I did a lot of
traveling and stuff.

Speaker 4 (11:32):
And I've got a family.

Speaker 3 (11:33):
I've got three kids and a wife, and you can't
just quit your job on a whim when you've got responsibilities.
So it was only really when we went to the
award ceremony. Met my wife and I went to London
for the award, the Kind the Storyteller Award ceremony, and
before that time, I'd never met writers before because probably
a bit like you guys, when you're growing up in

(11:54):
your background, none of your friends or people you socialized
with their writers. There are just people who have kind
of normal jobs. So that was the first time i'd
ever met or the writers. And I met a few
kind of successful crime authors like J. D. Kirk, who
I know you guys have had on and a few
other guys, and they were just like, nah, you have

(12:15):
to quit and get it going because it is it
is the frequency of releases does really help drive drive
the income, you know. So I did, and luckily she
was with me and able to buy into that because
these guys were kind of selling, selling what the opportunity
was and that's what really did it then and everything

(12:36):
kind of everything took off from there then, you.

Speaker 1 (12:37):
Know, so we know that the Amazon KDP Kindle Storyteller
Award is something that has massive potential. I mean, winning
twenty pounds is huge for any author. We know how
much it costs to get basic things done as an author,
So let everyone know just about how difficult that process
is to made you take that step in the first place.

Speaker 3 (13:03):
How difficult it is to get the book finished, you mean, or.

Speaker 2 (13:07):
Just to enroll. I mean, I'm saying difficult, but it
really isn't is it.

Speaker 3 (13:10):
No, it's the like. So when you set your when
you're engaging it with Amazon KDP, with their service, you
have to obviously you have your manuscript and you have
your cover, and you load that stuff up whether you
use kind or create or whatever it might be, and
you load it into the platform for people who don't know,
you have to set on your kind of set up pages.

(13:32):
You have to set up a certain amount of categories
that your book will appear in, and then some keywords.
And what they're really around is what people will search
for on Amazon. So say, if it's my books, they'd
be searching for historical fiction or you know, Viking books
or books about Vikings, or books with battles in and
variations on that and all you have to do to

(13:54):
enter the award is you use Kindle Storyteller and whatever
year is, So what kind of storyteller twenty twenty five?
Now as one of your keywords, I think you get
eight keywords something like that, and that's literally all you
have to do. So you have to put keywords in anyway,
and all you have to do to enter is put
one of them is the Kindle Storyteller Award, and then
you're in the competition, and if you're not successful afterwards,

(14:15):
you can just change it out and put another keyword in.

Speaker 4 (14:18):
So it's and I was surprised, so I did that.

Speaker 3 (14:23):
This was my fourth book, so I just put it
in because it was within the release window, which I
can't remember what it was, but at the time, I
think it was March to September or something. And then
I was surprised then three or four months later to
see that I was on kind of the shortlist, do
you know, Because obviously there's a lot of books entering.
A lot of them are kind of in big genres

(14:44):
like crime and romance and all that kind of stuff.
So I was really surprised to see my kind of
historical fiction book in there, you know.

Speaker 1 (14:54):
So tell me then, when you first did that, did
you have any expectation that you would make that shortlist?

Speaker 5 (15:00):
No.

Speaker 3 (15:01):
I did it because I thought that it would garner visibility,
because I knew that Amazon were kind of pushing the
competition and they have their own page, and I kind
of thought if people were searching through it, it'd just
be another way for them to see my book, just
a piece of like a bit of free marketing, you know.
I had no ambition, So I was delighted to get

(15:22):
on the onto the shortlist. And then I got a
call then from kind of the top man at Amazon
a little while later to say that I was on
like the final shortlist of five or whatever, and that
was to go to London for the for the award,
which was kind of crazy, and I was I was
up against a couple of really good crime books, like

(15:45):
a lesbian romance book and a roman and a pure
romance book.

Speaker 4 (15:49):
So I thought I had no chance, no chance of winning.
And that's in the book.

Speaker 3 (15:55):
In the book that was up there, King of Wars
like the central thing, and it is like this huge
battle on a fjord in Denmark, or the Battle of
Half as Fiord and there's like a valkyrie warrior woman
in it with one eye.

Speaker 4 (16:09):
And all this kind of crack.

Speaker 3 (16:11):
So I thought for the judges they'd be like, they
couldn't really go from reading a cozy romance or a
crime you know, like you get a UK crime thriller
to reading my book.

Speaker 4 (16:22):
I thought it was kind.

Speaker 3 (16:23):
Of a bridge, a bridge too far, But that turned
out not to be the case, which was great.

Speaker 1 (16:28):
And that's really interesting, the fact that it's open to
any genre. So the judgment panel has to really be
able to converse between them how much that book affected
them and how to put one book aby the other.
That must be a very difficult process for them.

Speaker 3 (16:43):
It is, and so the following year I was a
judge then for the next round, and it's very difficult
because at that point a lot of the books that
are kind of at the end of the process then
they're all going, really it's very hard to choose between them.
What you're really looking for is kind of something that
resonates with your good characters, good story, do you know,

(17:03):
like what you want to read yourself when you're reading
a book.

Speaker 4 (17:06):
You don't want to be reading something boring.

Speaker 3 (17:08):
You want something kind of impactful and some of the
stays with you, you know, definitely.

Speaker 5 (17:14):
So take us back then if you can to that
moment when you're on the short list, because I can
imagine myself in that moment. I'd be buying those books
straight away, reading the competition, going what am I up against?

Speaker 4 (17:24):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (17:25):
And then what was the process like there in terms
of being on that final five and that journey through
going to the awards ceremony and stuff.

Speaker 3 (17:33):
So yeah, so you kind of got the notification that
you were down to the year.

Speaker 4 (17:37):
I think I still have.

Speaker 6 (17:38):
To think, yeah, so I have kind of the thing
actually there they were the final five actually stole that
from the event on the evening, so it was me.

Speaker 4 (17:48):
It was The Woman in Room nineteen.

Speaker 3 (17:50):
Which was like a murder mystery, City of Scars by
j D. Kirk, Midsummer House by Rachel Lucas, which I
think is like a cozy romance, and then it started
with a Kiss by Claire Lyden, which is a lesbian
romance novel.

Speaker 4 (18:06):
So I was up against them.

Speaker 3 (18:07):
So yeah, so I did buy them and read them,
and obviously JD is a great, a great writer, So
when I read his book, I was like that that's.

Speaker 4 (18:17):
Not happening. So we just went.

Speaker 3 (18:19):
So my wife and I just went. It was at
the Houses of Parliament in London, so Amazon arranged for
a hotel and everything. It was great and never experienced
anything like it. Went to the evening, met loads of
writers for the for the first time, like I never
met writers before, like I said, And it was a
real eye opener because you know, you and I'm probably

(18:41):
speaking out a tournament, but you expect writers to be
a bit artif art.

Speaker 4 (18:45):
You don't.

Speaker 3 (18:45):
You know that they're going to be kind of a
bit aloof and have tweed jackets on and tw early
mustaches and stuff. But now everybody was really normal and
really nice, and it was It was good. So we
got up to the thing and they went through all
the ceremony and then when they read out that I
was the winner, it was a surprise to say, to
say the least. So yeah, and I was blown away.

(19:08):
I was blown away by it. It was unbelievable. And it
turned out all the judges had really enjoyed the story
because it was so different I suppose to what they've
read before, and like that there's really distinctive characters in it.

Speaker 4 (19:20):
And yeah, so it was trilling.

Speaker 3 (19:23):
And then like that, what people probably don't realize is
it's not just the cash prize you get when you
win the award.

Speaker 4 (19:31):
You also get like a marketing support package.

Speaker 3 (19:35):
So Amazon do loads of nice things for you, like
they put your book on their head, you know, I
think you get like an editor's choice page. They do
all kinds of different things to promote your book. And
that probably in the in the grand scheme of sending
my series into greater sales, was probably worth more than
the cash prize because people then went back and started

(19:57):
reading book one, two, and three, and it really kind
of it really lifted up the series. I know you
guys are both self published as well, Like the hardest
thing is trying to get visibility, right, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (20:09):
It is one of the most well, it is almost,
if not more difficult than writing the book in the
first place. So it is a huge, huge, you know,
massive price. But I was going to say, you know,
having that full book collection to win it on the
fourth book must have been a really good thing for
you in that series. Then, as you mentioned, people were

(20:31):
going back to read the rest of the series, so
you know, it's it's great to enter this with a
Deaby book or with the series. Either way, I think
whatever stage you're at, this is a great competition to enter.
And as Peter said, it's so simple to do just
by putting that keyword in.

Speaker 2 (20:47):
Yeah. Absolutely, I just.

Speaker 3 (20:49):
Think that when I look back, I just think for
the state, that's only one keyword. Just stick it in there,
and like that, if you don't, if you don't get
down to the chart list, you can just switch it out.

Speaker 5 (21:00):
And m hm, did you find Peter there put more
pressure on you though? After you'd won such a big
award and you knew obviously that new influx of readers
was coming. Did it put more pressure on the next book?

Speaker 4 (21:13):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (21:13):
It did.

Speaker 3 (21:14):
But also then because I'd gone from having a salary
like like like I'd always had like a job with
a salary to buy food and clothes children so they
don't end up in the workhouse. And then to go
from that then to be relying on your royalties was
kind of a squeaky bue time for want of a
better phrase, you know, But yeah, like that.

Speaker 4 (21:37):
Lucially, the award kind of brought.

Speaker 3 (21:39):
Readers in, and so when I released the book after that,
the pre orders did really well and it continued on
from there. So I have ten so far in that
original series, and I have a series of three kind
of prequels on the go now, and then I have
a series of four thrillers under under a different pen

(21:59):
name like Thrillers.

Speaker 4 (22:00):
So yeah, I'm just going at it every day like
I used to work.

Speaker 3 (22:03):
I just come out here and try and name for
four thousand words a day and that's it. Just worked
like I used to work, you know, kind of just
work all daily until it's time.

Speaker 5 (22:15):
So can you talk us through the differences then, because
obviously a lot of people may be in a similar
boat to you in terms of their working. They're writing,
but they've got the job that they need to go
to and they may be writing at the kitchen table.
What was the sort of major learning curves that you've
had from making that transition to somebody who was writing
every day or whenever you could around your job, to

(22:38):
then working full time as a writer, you know, going
in your shared finding the motivation there, because I should
imagine they're quite different experiences that you have to try
and motivate yourself for.

Speaker 3 (22:49):
Yeah, and that's a good question, Chris, because it is
a weird thing when when you're writing.

Speaker 4 (22:53):
I used to get up really early and write before work.

Speaker 3 (22:57):
That was my whole thing, was I'd get up early
and try and bang out a couple of hours before
the kids woke up. And that kind of makes you
really disciplined and focused, you know, And throughout the day
then and in the evenings you're kind of thinking about
what you're going to write the next day, and in
two hours you can actually write quite a lot, you know,
if you have a plan and you know that you're
going to be writing X scene in chapter whatever it is,

(23:21):
you can be really focused. Whereas when you're doing it
every day, you can let yourself slip a little bit,
do you know what I mean? Because you've got all
day to do it. So sometimes it was difficult at
first to try and be disciplined and stick to it
every day. Whereas I try and be a bit more
like I used to be these days, and that I
come out and start hammering it out kind of straight away,

(23:43):
because the mornings for me are always the best, the
best time to get the words done and then leave
the other stuff like editing and accounts and market into
the afternoons.

Speaker 5 (23:55):
And did you find as well that once you'd met
all those writers that, like you said, you'd never met
any before, that sort of add to your productivity and
what sort of things did they bring to the table
that helped you be a better riot.

Speaker 3 (24:06):
It definitely helped me with the ambition and to see
what was possible when I saw what they were doing
and what they were selling, and the opportunity that was
out there in self publishing, because when when I originally started,
I didn't know anything about self publishing. I just like
with my first manuscript, I was sending that off to

(24:29):
agents and publishers in its original form, which was crap.
So obviously I was getting no, no pickup from that.
And then it was only after I understood about self
publishing that really changed my life. But like that, and
then when I met those authors, I was kind of
blown away that it was possible to make a living
and to be successful if you could be disciplined. So

(24:52):
I kind of felt like then I was chasing them
to try and make that dream work, do you know
what I mean? Because what I understood after meeting those
guys was there's a few key elements you have to
kind of get right. So you've got to have your
book cover on point, you've got to take some pride
in your manuscript. Get properly edited, so get a copy
edit and a proofread on it. You've got to have

(25:15):
your marketing right, so make sure that your categories and
your keywords are right for your book, and that your
covers on genre that you can see the covery I've
got up there now, like that's the book that I'm
just finishing. Now it's out later this year. But when
you look at that, you know that's going to be that.
There's a million books with a ship on like that.
But when you look at that, you know it's going
to be about Vikings because it's a Viking ship and

(25:37):
it's no good having it's no good having a book
cover there's kind of great and it's all different.

Speaker 4 (25:44):
Well, you don't want a big thing.

Speaker 3 (25:47):
For me in the early in the early days was
you actually don't want your cover to be different. You
want it to be the same, so that when people
are looking at the thumbnails and they seeing the big
guys that your book kind of looks like it's it's
it's similar to them, do you know what I mean?
And then work on your blurb make sure that's right
it's got the right metadata in make sure if a

(26:08):
person is reading it that they understand what they're going
to get out get out of the book.

Speaker 4 (26:13):
Yeah, and that's it.

Speaker 3 (26:14):
So I learned a lot meeting those guys and it
took it to a new level in terms of Professionalism's.

Speaker 1 (26:22):
A there's a big commonality between the people we've had
on this show who have been successful in the authors
and yourself is the way they talk about it being
a business and treating it like a business, not you know.

Speaker 2 (26:35):
Hoping that that book will do well.

Speaker 1 (26:37):
It's actually putting things in place to make sure that's
working in the right direction and working hard at it
as well. So there's a message there for everybody. It
depends what you want from being an India author. But
if you want that sustainability and that success, it's only
going to come from the hard work you put in
as well.

Speaker 3 (26:52):
So yeah, the writing is only is only one part
of it. You've really got to invest time, understand in
the KDP service, Understanding Amazon, understanding what can be done
to promote, to promote your book to give it the
best chance of success. And it pays off, Like if
you can get that right early doors with your first

(27:13):
couple of books. Then you start getting followers on Amazon,
you start getting signed up to your mailing list, and
it all kind of rolls on rolls on from there,
so that time spent up front pays dividends. Then as
you series grows, do you.

Speaker 4 (27:26):
Know what I mean?

Speaker 5 (27:28):
So you're talking obviously about the beginning when you were
sending out to publishers and stuff. What what made you
take that jump and say, do you know what? This
book is good enough? You know I'm going to I'm
going to put it out there myself. What made you
do that?

Speaker 3 (27:42):
It was kind of a last It was the last ditch,
Like I'd sent it off to loads of agents and
stuff and nobody really wanted to so I have any
bit of it, and it was probably a bit rough
and ready. And if you read my first book now,
Viking Blood and Blade, I've never gone back and re
edited it, so it's still rough and ready, like you
would still find the odd spell.

Speaker 4 (28:02):
All I got on that I think was a copy edit.

Speaker 3 (28:05):
I couldn't at the time, I couldn't put any more
money into it because I already bought a cover and
paid for a cover design and all that. So I
didn't want to invest more money in something that wasn't
gonna I wasn't going to make any money, you know.
So yeah, and it was I've been off to ages
and then I kind of stumbled across self publishing and

(28:26):
then I was kind of blown away by the opportunity.

Speaker 4 (28:29):
And I don't know why. I'd never heard of it.

Speaker 3 (28:31):
I'd actually read some published books before and not realized,
but my mind was blown then.

Speaker 4 (28:37):
And as you know, there's.

Speaker 3 (28:38):
Kind of a million YouTube videos out there of how
to do it and what to do and what's possible.
So I kind of then started soaking up all that
all that information and put my first book out and
for the first week, I put it for free.

Speaker 4 (28:53):
So put Viking Blood and Blade out, and I.

Speaker 3 (28:55):
Was like, right, that's it. This is kind of the
last ditch thing. At least people if anybody wants to
read it. I might get a few people reading it,
and that'd be great, and I'll put it to bed.
Because I'd always wanted to be a writer. I always
thought I could do it. But it's a weird thing
starting to write. It's kind of a it's a bizarre
thing to do, is to sit there and write and
you worried that people are going to be like, what

(29:16):
are you doing right? Why are you doing that? Like
it's a complete waste of time. It's strange, it's a
strange thing. But I had the thing done, so I thought, right,
let's do it, let's put it out. And that day
I kind of went off. I can't remember where.

Speaker 4 (29:30):
I was doing.

Speaker 3 (29:31):
I think I was bringing two of my kids to
football or whatever. It was, left the phone in the car,
came back and just checked to see and there's been
loads of free downloads on it, and that kept going
then and reviews started coming in, and then when I
put it to paid, I.

Speaker 4 (29:47):
Set it for like two ninety nine or three, you know,
and I think it was.

Speaker 3 (29:50):
And then it took off and sales went really well
with that first book, so I went straight in to
writing the second one, which was a direct follow up
to that book. The first one was kind of set
in eight sixty five AD, and it's about kind of
the Viking invasion of England and the Sack of York
and Eva the Bondless and all that kind of cool stuff.

(30:11):
But there's kind of characters within that who have their
own problems in that kind of big that big war
and people seem to resonate with that, you know, And yeah,
it just I was blown away and it just took
off then from there, Like I was, I wouldn't have
been surprised if it didn't sell any to be honest,
but it.

Speaker 4 (30:31):
Did and it just kicked on from there.

Speaker 1 (30:34):
Do you think that was in timing with anything out
at the time. I know you mentioned Bernard come Well
and the Viking series and then The Last Kingdom were
quite big a.

Speaker 2 (30:45):
Couple of years back.

Speaker 1 (30:46):
Yeah, do you think that that book was also well
timed to get that kind of engine?

Speaker 3 (30:50):
So Vikings was kind of still hot of the original Vikings,
you know, with Travis fimalin that that was kind of
only really just out and there was a few things.
Is like, by the time I got to book three
or four, the north Man came out, remember that, So
it was it was kind of popular enough at that time,
So that kind of I think, I think really helped.

(31:11):
It's like if you was probably releasing a Roman, but
when Gladiator came out, you know, it's a bit it's
a bit like that, isn't it.

Speaker 4 (31:17):
We need a bit of look, you know.

Speaker 1 (31:20):
Yeah, And the whole time I've been watching you in
that seat. There is just see right, there's a gap
between the bookshelf and the wall and on. I keep
seeing these people on Facebook who do blacksmith work, and
they do amazing Viking axes with inscription and stuff on.
I think that would be brilliant. That right, that's what
you need to get there.

Speaker 4 (31:40):
I need to get that.

Speaker 3 (31:41):
I have an idea to get you know, like a
shield or a sword or something.

Speaker 4 (31:45):
When no one's looking, I can go around in the room.

Speaker 1 (31:49):
Well, I've got a funny story about the sort the shield.
I ordered one on a website a while back, and
I expected this lovely decorated shield to turn up and
it turned out to be about this big. Yeah, it
was unbelievable. So that's sat in my in my garage
now hidden away what I actually saw. Do you know

(32:11):
John Gwyn Do you know what he writes?

Speaker 3 (32:12):
Like fantasy stuff that's based in like like a Norse
alternate universe, if great books. Actually, if you've never read him,
you should give them a try. I think of the
name of the you know if you see it, because
the cover on it is unreal. It's got like this
huge dragon on it and this tiny little guy with
a shield and a sword anyway, but he had when

(32:34):
he was being interviewed in his room, like a full
set of chain mail, a full shield and a full sword.
And I was thinking, that is business mate, Like you
can put that on when no one's in.

Speaker 2 (32:45):
A few beers on a Friday night. What's one thing?

Speaker 1 (32:49):
Then he must have done a lot of research in
regards to the Viking series that you wrote. So what
was one thing that really surprised you out the stories
that you read?

Speaker 3 (32:58):
I think about the Viking the real surprise for me
was the daring of it, the daring of what they
were able to do. Obviously they were brutal people, but
everybody was at that time. But sometimes I like to
try and put myself in their position and try and
imagine what it would take two you have, like I

(33:22):
went on our way my thirtieth birthday, I think it was,
it was a long time. On my fortieth maybe seven
years ago, we went to the Viking Ship Museum in
dem Martiney, Copenhagen, and there's a big reconstruction of this
ship that they found sunk, sunk beneath the ground. And
this thing is unreal, like it's huge.

Speaker 4 (33:44):
It's so shallow.

Speaker 3 (33:46):
Yeah, so I always kind of think like for them,
for them blokes like at that time, just to courage
to get on that and row and sail across the
sea like the North Sea, do you know, to come
south where it's to France or to England or Scotland.

Speaker 4 (34:02):
Or wherever you're going.

Speaker 3 (34:05):
Yeah, fully knowing that you could either die at sea
or when you got there, everybody was going to be
trying to kill you.

Speaker 1 (34:12):
It must be very interesting facts that we probably have
no idea about in reality that how many ships did
attempt that you know, some did manage to get to
places like Iceland, And if you look at it on
the maps, in those sorts of ships without real direction,
it's absolutely crazy.

Speaker 2 (34:27):
So wonder how many ships exactly just vanished.

Speaker 4 (34:31):
Just didn't make it. But like that when the.

Speaker 3 (34:35):
At the time of my first book there in eight
six five, like a whole fleet of them came. So
you're talking three or four thousand warriors came from Norway
and Denmark to landing near York. And that that's a lot.
So that's a lot of ships. And you know, like
you're coming, you're leaving your home and your family and
you go into a different place. But obviously in their

(34:57):
heads they thought completely different, so we do. They believed
in gods that were kind of ultra violent and encouraged them,
encouraged them to battle into violence.

Speaker 4 (35:06):
So it was a completely different.

Speaker 3 (35:09):
Mindset and all that stuff is fascinating, Yeah, it really is,
so Peter, I'm.

Speaker 5 (35:15):
Interested in time scale. So obviously you said about your
first book, how long did that take to sort of
fashion and put together? And then what have you learned
and what tips could you give to people about improving
that time scale over you know, experience.

Speaker 3 (35:30):
So the first one took a while because, like I
said earlier, it was just kind of a meandering, a
meandering mess. It was kind of like these lads are
here and they go there and they do this, and
there's a battle and blah blah blah. And I was
part of a writing group at that time sending chapters
and getting feedback on chapters, which was great at improving

(35:51):
style and all that kind of thing, But it really
only kicked on after I got after I paid for
a structural edit where I got some really canned did
candid feedback, which improved my writing. So I'm saying, in
all told, to get to that point was probably about
eighteen months to get to that finished version. Then I
was kind of sending it off and getting blown out

(36:12):
by all the agents and publishers, and then I self
published it. But then after I saw the success of
the first book, I kind of launched into the second
one aggressively. Aggressively, so I wanted to get that out
then within another year, which I did. But what I
did then the key learning them was planning and plotting,

(36:33):
So I can't for the first kind of three or
four books, I stuck rigidly to the three act structure,
kind of stuck to that like glue. So I had
the story that I wanted to tell and the characters,
and then I fit that story rigidly into that kind
of thing. So twenty seven chapters, with each chapter having
you know, a build up to a point of action,

(36:54):
and you've got an inciting incident at the start, you've
got a twist in chapter eight, and you've got a
mid point build up to the midpoint, you've got another
All that kind of stuff I made sure was kind
of rigid, and that really helped me. Then when I
was writing in the morning, I knew exactly what I
had to kind of write and get done, and that
discipline really helped me to keep.

Speaker 4 (37:15):
The releases going, you know.

Speaker 3 (37:18):
And after that I was able to kind of keep
them going quickly and quickly, and then when I finished work,
I was able to speed up then and get about
four books a year out.

Speaker 1 (37:27):
I was going to say, because on your Amazon list
of books, we've got quite a few that are coming
out soon as well, so you've obviously got quite a
good rhythm of getting these books out in time.

Speaker 3 (37:36):
Yeah. I also have as a consequence of winning the
Storyteller Award, I also was offered a tried publishing deal
after the fact I have a series, or I have
two series with a publisher, but I also keep doing
my own self published stuff. So what you see on
there is kind of I have a series about King

(37:56):
Arthur and a series about the Saxons and the vikings
with them, so sometimes the release is kind of.

Speaker 4 (38:04):
Roll over, do you know what I mean?

Speaker 3 (38:05):
But self published, like the one you have up there,
is a self published book and that that will be
out I think end of August. And the last book
I published was a self published book, which was the
first book in that prequel series.

Speaker 4 (38:19):
But yeah, you have to keep the Unfortunately, you have
to keep the releases.

Speaker 3 (38:22):
Going because with Amazon, as you know, when you release,
you get a spike and then it kind of it
kind of tails off. So what you're really trying to
achieve is like a like wave, so you're trying to
get your next release out before that one dips too far.
And when you get your next release out, all the
other books in the series get a bump as well.
So it kind of that's the way it works, you know.

Speaker 1 (38:43):
And interestingly, quite a few of them have been translated
into German.

Speaker 3 (38:47):
Yeah, yeah, it's great so that they're they're self published
as well using the KDP service in Germany. So Germany
is after USA and England and you, Germany is the
next biggest market for KDP and self published books. So
I had them translated myself at my own cash Founder

(39:09):
translator and got them done and they're.

Speaker 4 (39:11):
Actually going really well.

Speaker 3 (39:12):
So we just released book three in Germany, same cover,
but obviously with the with the German with the German
words on it.

Speaker 4 (39:20):
But they're going really well. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (39:22):
So what happens in regards to reviews? Do you do
you read your reviews tool? And if so, what about
the German ones. Do you have to get them translated?

Speaker 2 (39:29):
Do you know what?

Speaker 3 (39:30):
The Germans are kind of a bit more brutal, you know,
the way like normally your book would be kind of
four and a half. If you're lucky four point eight
out of five, and people are normally quite generous in Germany,
you're doing well. If you get a four, that's that's decent.
Because they're a bit more kind of they're a bit
more brutal. I actually got a very funny review on

(39:50):
one of my own, my normal English books there about
a month ago. I had a book out. It's been
about about a month, so you know, you're checking it
every day to see if the first age of reviews
are going to be decent or not, because you don't
want a bad one. On that first kind of Amazon page,
some feather had gone on there and and said not
read this yet, can't wait to read it? Two stars? Wow,

(40:14):
you know I mean, And it was there on the
on the first page.

Speaker 2 (40:18):
Well at least at least the review written review is positive. Yeah,
don't do that, people, please?

Speaker 3 (40:24):
Oh man different if he'd read it, you said he
was being positive, saying you couldn't wait to.

Speaker 4 (40:29):
Read it, but then gave it to because he's not
even read it.

Speaker 1 (40:32):
So all the Viking stuff you've written, is there any
part of that history now, or you know, maybe some
other aspect of history that you want to write about
that you haven't so far.

Speaker 3 (40:44):
Yeah, Lords, I kind of have, like when I'm kind
of done with the Vikings, and I'm probably going to
write something about about Rome, do a.

Speaker 4 (40:52):
Series about that.

Speaker 3 (40:54):
But at the moment, they kind of still staying in
that kind of Viking genre because that's where all my
that's where all my readers are, of course, Yeah, and
they're kind of very loyal sock back at the start.
I'm a big fan of fantasy books, so I wrote
like a historical fantasy book which was kind of about

(41:16):
these time traveling warriors that if they die, they kind
of get resurrected again in the future, and they always
kind of appear when there's a big significant battle, so
like say in the Time of Alexander, the time of
Julius Caesar, World War two or whatever it might be,
which I thought.

Speaker 4 (41:32):
Was awesome, right, and everybody was going to love it.

Speaker 3 (41:35):
Everybody hated it because all the people that were reading
it were all the Viking people, So they were all like,
it's not as good as the others, blah blah blah,
what's the story with all the magic and time traveling?
So what I do now is I give that out
for free when you sign up to my mailing list,
you know. But at the time I thought that was

(41:55):
going to be great and people would love it. But
so when I write the series of action thrillers self
published as well, under a completely different name, with a
completely different website and a completely different mailing list. They're
under the name Dan Stone. One of the books is
called Legal Target and Hidden the Enemy, and they're like
kind of classic action James Bond type thrillers, you know.

(42:17):
But yeah, I'd love to write about Rome. I'd love
to write about Napoleonic era and all that kind of
stuff ancient Greece, you know. But I'm just worried. I'm
just really worried about what's the word, like, if it
ain't broke, don't fix it kind of thing.

Speaker 2 (42:36):
You know. Yeah, definitely, I was going to say, yes,
I was going to say.

Speaker 1 (42:43):
All the different stories you've written in the different kind
of histories and different periods, I guess if any of
your stories could be picked up an option, which one
would you decide would be the best one?

Speaker 3 (42:59):
Probably the Viking one because I think the stories is
probably the best and the characters are quite good. I
think that one would probably be would probably be the
best one. I'm not sure how realistic any of that
stuff is, but I'd say that they would probably make
the best probably because it's ten books, it's too much

(43:19):
for a movie, but hopefully it would make.

Speaker 4 (43:21):
A good TV show. But we'll see.

Speaker 3 (43:24):
That's kind of a that's a dream that you kind
of have to banish to the back of your mind,
isn't it.

Speaker 4 (43:28):
You know?

Speaker 1 (43:29):
Yeah, definitely, I mean Coolwell, as you mentioned, he's his
series are quite long, and they made a good series
on TV.

Speaker 3 (43:37):
So that he had his sharp novels made remember with
Sean Bell, and he was they were brilliant. Then he
had The Last Kingdom, which was good. They also made
a thing about his King Arthur books, but the series
was not great.

Speaker 2 (43:51):
Man.

Speaker 1 (43:51):
Yeah, but yeah, you never know, it's a possibility.

Speaker 5 (43:56):
Yeah, definitely. My question Pete was going to be around,
like being a professional writ into a particular genre, Like
what advice would you give to somebody in that field,
because there's probably a lot of people out there that
have that idea for a book that they love, like
the fantasy one that you really enjoyed in the time
travel element and stuff, and then it doesn't do as

(44:19):
well as they expect. So they might think, oh, this
genre is something that I like, but I've never written
in that genre. How do I do it properly? I
suppose there's the question that they would have, So what
advice would you give to somebody in that instant?

Speaker 3 (44:37):
I would say, write what you know and your love first,
and don't try and cross genres because it's messy. So
I would say, if you like detective stories, write a
detective story, and said it in your home city, like
if you're from I don't know, leads, set it in leads.
If you're from Dublin, said it in Dublin or wherever

(44:59):
you're from, because you know the city. And I always
try and think, and I think it was Bernard Comer
that gave this advice in a really old interview, And
this is what I always try and do in my books.
Is obviously you have the research to make sure that
everything is on point in terms of what they're wearing,
the weapons, the ships, they sail in the way the
land looks, what they eat and all that stuff. But

(45:21):
try and have like the big conflict, so big war
that's kind of true and actually happened, and then within
that have a mini conflict that your characters are engaged in.

Speaker 4 (45:31):
So they've got this big conflict.

Speaker 3 (45:34):
So you know, if it was a detective thriller, you've
got the murder or whatever it is, but then you've
got the team interacting with each other as well and
all those kind of nuances, and in my books, is
kind of the big drama of the war they're involved in,
but also then the little things that are going on
and within the crew or within their rivalry with another

(45:54):
ship's crew or whatever it might be. But I would say,
don't try for your first book, certainly, don't try and
be as boring as this sounds is. Don't try and
be new and inn I try and stick to a
genre and write what you know, because you're trying to
think about what your goal is. If your goal, however,

(46:16):
is to write something that's artistically brilliant, and that's what
your goal is, then write what you want, go for it.
But if your goal is to make sales and try
and turn your right into a into a business.

Speaker 4 (46:30):
Then do some.

Speaker 3 (46:31):
Research on the genres, which genres sell well, where they
in the Amazon rankings, which particular books are selling the best,
and try and fit within within that because I sometimes
think people can be a bit naive in that they've
created something that's that's brilliant, but it doesn't fit into
the right pocket, if that makes sense.

Speaker 4 (46:52):
But it very much depends on what your goal is.

Speaker 3 (46:54):
If your goal is creativity and fulfilling that creative need,
then do whatever, do whatever you feel, as long as
you don't care about sales. But if you want to
be if you want to sell and turn your writing
into your life, then you need to think about the
business stuff.

Speaker 2 (47:11):
Unfortunately, that's great advice.

Speaker 5 (47:14):
Yeah, that one, because I always find myself like, I
love reading crime, and I'm like, every time I've sat
down to write a traditional crime book, I've just got bored.
I've been like like, oh, I need to throw someone
else in there, and like I need a bit of
magic or a bit of something different. And like you say,
it's very rare that you find one that kind of

(47:35):
does blend those genres and get it right and take off.
So yeah, it's great advice. I'm going to try and
take it.

Speaker 3 (47:44):
It's hard, isn't it. Like in those detective thrillers, people
want that. They want a detective who's a bit grizzled
and has got you know, the used to be an
alcoholic or they've been divorced and blah blah blah. They've
got a team around them that have got dynamic between them.
They need like a murder that's taken place in a
city somewhere, and it is a little bit of formulaic,
but that's what people want to think. If you're right

(48:05):
in that, give give them what they want, do you
know what I mean?

Speaker 5 (48:09):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, good advice.

Speaker 1 (48:13):
What we're going to do now is we're going to
play our KDP advert, which is going to tell you
exactly how you can get involved in the Kindles Storyteller Award.
As we've learned so far in this interview, it's very
very easy to do, and we've got the proof of
what happens if you win that award right here. So
we're going to play the ad and after that we're
going to talk to Peter about well, we're going to

(48:35):
ask him our staple questions of course. So here comes
the ad, and if you are considering it, just do it.
Here's the push you need it. It's a little keyword.
That's all you've got to do. And here comes the
rest of the information and the link is in the description.

Speaker 5 (48:49):
And if you've got any questions, to think about them
now and send them in after this ad because we
can ask them.

Speaker 1 (48:55):
To Peter absolutely, So here you go, Hey, wright, is
what if it in published could earn you a massive
twenty thousand pounds?

Speaker 5 (49:13):
Yeah, imagine. Well you don't need to imagine because that's
exactly what's on offer with Amazon's Kindle Storyteller Award twenty
twenty five. This amazing only three prize is back for
its ninth year and it's open to anyone who self
publishes a book like Kindle Direct Publishing in any genre.

Speaker 2 (49:30):
Any genre.

Speaker 1 (49:32):
Yeah, whether you've written your first or your tenth novel,
it doesn't matter. If it's unpublished and written in English,
then you can enter that award with a chance of winning.

Speaker 5 (49:40):
Yeah, and it's really easy to enter. So just publish
your book through Kindle Direct Publishing between the first of
May and the thirty first of August and make sure
it's enrolled in KDP select.

Speaker 1 (49:53):
Yep, I think you'd be absolutely mad not to, as
a twenty thousand pound prize would help any author boost
their career massively.

Speaker 2 (50:00):
And our previous guest and last year's winner, JD.

Speaker 1 (50:02):
Kirk said that is took his career to the next
level after winning that award and taking it home.

Speaker 5 (50:08):
Yeah, and it did. These books are everywhere, so in
order to enter, head to Amazon dot co dot uk
forward slash Storyteller to find out more. The Kindle Storyteller
Award is open now, so publish enter, okay, story out there.

Speaker 2 (50:24):
Yeah, we'll support you all the way. You know, we
will do that. So we'll leave you with this. Good luck.
The WCCs together as one, we get it done. Oh
there you go. That's weird. Let's go back. Yes, there
you go. Enter the competition.

Speaker 1 (50:39):
Please do so, and you know, let us know if
you have done, and we'd like to know your progress
and we'll support you with the best we can. So yeah,
with that, Chris, do you want to start us off
with the staple questions?

Speaker 5 (50:51):
Yeah? So one of our staple questions, Peter, is if
you could take any character from fiction and make that
character your own, which character would you choose?

Speaker 3 (50:58):
And why I think for me right, I was listening
to some of your previous episodes, so I thought you
were going to ask this question. But I love kind
of Bernard Cornwell's books and David Gammel's books, and Joe
Abercrombie and people like that, so I was kind of
thinking I might stretch it and have one of each
of their So I kind of have a wo Trede

(51:19):
of Bebenberg from the Last Kingdom. I'd have Dross from Legend,
which is the David Gammel book. I'd have Logan nine
Fingers from Joe Abercrombie's books, and I'd put them all
into a scenario with some of my characters where either
they're battling against each other or they're all on the
same side and they've got to defend the fortress against.

Speaker 4 (51:40):
Kind of unbelievable odds.

Speaker 3 (51:42):
Try and pinch those amazing characters and put them all
into one into one story.

Speaker 5 (51:48):
That's a great answer. I think you never know in
the future that could happen. We've had a lot of
writers on the show where they've been entrusted to write
people's books or take people's characters on so finger across
that you maybe get to do that with at least
one of those characters in the future, maybe hopefully.

Speaker 2 (52:05):
Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 1 (52:07):
Okay, if you could take the ending of anything story ways,
whether that be a TV show, a film, or a novel,
and change the ending, what ending are you going to
change and.

Speaker 4 (52:16):
Why it has to be The Sopranos?

Speaker 2 (52:20):
Nice?

Speaker 4 (52:20):
Did you watch The Sopranos? Yes, you know, at the.

Speaker 3 (52:23):
End and it's just like Tony's in that cafe or
restaurant thing and then it just goes to black and
it kind of looks like the guy is going to
shoot him, but you know, you don't know if that
happened or not or what like, you just left it
kind of bizarrely hanging like that.

Speaker 4 (52:40):
And I think No Country for Old Men ended quite
badly as well the main ones.

Speaker 5 (52:46):
What is then, Peter with getting the twist right? Because
I'm watching a show at the minute called Mobland.

Speaker 4 (52:53):
Yea watching it?

Speaker 5 (52:55):
Yeah, I've been thinking on episode six and I've been
thinking about it all day, and I'm like, is this
person gonna survive? I want to know if he's going
to get him It's I won't reveal any spoilers because
it's relatively new, but it's when Tom Hardy's character goes
abroad to get some people back, and I'm like, is
it I need to know? And obviously the episodes end

(53:18):
on like a cliffhanger, Yeah, what is that? What's the
key there? To write in a really good cliffhanger way?
I want to read the next chapter and then you
want to read the next one.

Speaker 3 (53:29):
I always try and build it out into my planning.
Like I was talking to you before about the structure,
so I always know you're going to have to have
a twist about chapter eight. You're gonna have to have
your midpoint which changes everything, and then you've got your
final twist before kind of the final battle.

Speaker 4 (53:45):
So I like to have those in my head.

Speaker 3 (53:47):
And I think the final twist has always got to
be kind of something unexpected or something that is a
bit of a surprise. And in terms of cliffhangers, used
them wisely, So don't be like Dan Brown, where every
chapter is a fin it loses its it loses its
hook to get the reader to say, oh.

Speaker 4 (54:07):
Just I'll just read one more. You know, you use
them wisely, but I do try and.

Speaker 3 (54:11):
Have a good few of my chapters kind of so
say if there's going to be a big battle, or
the character is going to face off against their great enemy.

Speaker 4 (54:21):
Don't have that happen in the middle of a chapter.

Speaker 3 (54:23):
Have it that, you know, they face off and blah
blah blah, and they're ready to go, and that's the
end of the they're going to win kind of thing.

Speaker 4 (54:29):
That's the all like that you.

Speaker 3 (54:31):
Go abroad to rescue somebody and you leave the chapter
there and the reader wants to know, then are they
going to be successful against insurmount of ball odds or not?
But use you if you're a right use those tools wisely,
because it's the twists and turns that keep people interested.

Speaker 4 (54:49):
And when and when I was learning.

Speaker 3 (54:50):
About story structure, like this stuff goes back to kind
of like ancient Greek plays, so like it's been around
for thousands of years, and therefore people's minds are kind
of pre coded to expect these things to happen. So
they're expecting to see an inciting incident, they're expecting to
have a midpoint, and they're expecting to have a twist

(55:11):
at the end and a final confrontation. And if you
don't have that, I think you can feel a bit unsatisfying.
You really need to make sure that you're giving that
to what they subconsciously want.

Speaker 4 (55:23):
You know that makes sense or is that a bit kind.

Speaker 5 (55:25):
Of no, Yeah, no, it makes sense. You've got some
questions from the audience. I'm going to say, we've still
got a little tiny bit of time. So if you
have got a question, just send it in in any capacity.
In myself and Crystal try and get it answered for you.
But Sarah is someone here says, what advice do you
have for somebody writing a historical fantasy fiction novel?

Speaker 3 (55:47):
I would say to make sure that the to make
like it's a bit like that. There are historical fantasy
fictions that have been hugely successful, like Outlander, for example,
which is on TV, and you know, the time travel
back to kind of medieval Scotland. What I'd say is
to try and pick a time that people are interested in.

(56:10):
So whether they're going back to the Titanic or whether
they're going I don't know, whatever, whatever time period you're
setting it in, make sure it's one that has popularity.
When I wrote my historical fantasy novel, I set it
like in ancient kind of Mesopotamia because it was the
first one which I thought was cool, but everybody else thought.

Speaker 4 (56:29):
Was stupid because they weren't interested in it.

Speaker 3 (56:31):
If I could write that again, I would have started
it off in Rome or with Alexander, which is a
time that people are already kind of super interested in,
So that would be my main bit of advice, is
to set it in a time or a place in
history that people are already invested in, so that you
know it's going to appeal to that bank of readers.

(56:54):
And that goes back to a little bit about what
I was saying before about just having an understanding of
what you're trying to First, if you're just trying to
write for your own enjoyment, then write what you want.
But if you're trying to write something that's going to
sell and lead to something, try and have a little
bit of a think about how it's going to sell,
Like what readers are going to read my book?

Speaker 4 (57:16):
How am I going to market this?

Speaker 3 (57:18):
Can I market it's if it's on the Titanic, easy,
there's loads of books on that, and you can try
and drag some of those readers over to yours. If
it's in World War two, happy days, because that's a
whole genre on its own. If it's in the you
know what, I don't know, American Revolution, or if it's
about people settling in America in you know, early New York. Great,

(57:41):
So try and pick a time in history where you
can kind of suck some readers across or with.

Speaker 4 (57:48):
Your fantasy element.

Speaker 3 (57:50):
Have that fantasy element a sub genre of fantasy that
has an existing readership that you can draw in. But
don't try and be all things to all men. Try
and pick where you're going to target your book so
you can market it to those readers. I know that's
probably a bit boring, but that that would be my answer.
Somebody else might say different and write what you love

(58:11):
and all of that, but that would be my advice
for I think.

Speaker 1 (58:15):
That's refreshing advice to hear. Where do you how do
you blow the line between the fantasy element and then
the historical element without maybe dragging it too far from
one side the other.

Speaker 4 (58:30):
It's a hard one, isn't it.

Speaker 3 (58:31):
I think what you're trying to do is not change
the events that happened at the time, but have your
your your fantasy stuff realistic enough that it could have
happened that at that time. Like I don't know, like,
if you're going to try and put dragons into World
War Two, that's a completely different that's a completely different thing.

(58:54):
But if you're trying to have it that to say,
you know, a coven of witches or wizards working in
Henry the Eights Court to undermine his wives, that's entirely possible,
you know, depending on what their powers might be and stuff. So,
I don't know, it's a difficult one, isn't it. I
think if you you can, if you want to write
pure fantasy, write pure fantasy. But if it's going to

(59:16):
be historical fantasy, you have to be cognizant of the
historical stuff as well as the as well as the
fantasy elements.

Speaker 4 (59:24):
Again boring, sorry, but that.

Speaker 2 (59:26):
Was not at all, not at all. I think dragons
in World War Two would have been the game changer.

Speaker 4 (59:30):
I'm going to write that down because.

Speaker 3 (59:35):
Brilliant Winston Churchill riding on the back of a big
red dragon going over to Natis.

Speaker 2 (59:42):
Would not be good. Good Blay again, this camera is terrible.

Speaker 5 (59:48):
Yeah, So obviously we've come to the alum right now,
so we'll ask one of our final questions and if
anyone does throw any in, we'll probably be able to
just squeezele one in. But of our final questions is
it's a bit morbid. But you're on your deathbed, you're
looking back at your writing career, what would you be
happy with? What is success to you?

Speaker 3 (01:00:11):
Success to me is to be able to do what
I love and also support my family, so to keep
doing what I'm doing, so to be able for them
to do everything they want to do and have what
they want, And for me to be able to do
what I want to do, which is to come out
here and write stories all day. I think that's probably

(01:00:32):
maybe a bit of lack of ambition on my part.
Somebody might say they want like a big movie, or
they want like a best seller and a front window
of waterstones or whatever it might be. But I'm really
happy to have what I have, which is doing what
I love doing and being able to support.

Speaker 4 (01:00:50):
My family and make that work.

Speaker 3 (01:00:52):
Because I have a little theory on this lad right,
which is a bit of a tangent. Right, So if
I'm being a bit mental, let me know, I think, like,
you know, you get these, you know you get lottery winners, right,
I think you can go past what's a healthy amount
of success you know the way if you won the lottery.

Speaker 4 (01:01:07):
Now in your own life, everything.

Speaker 3 (01:01:10):
Changes, you move where you live, all of a sudden
you're driving a sports car and speedboat, and as women
throwing themselves at your wife's goot, men throwing it never
ends well. So I think like a modicum of success
where you're comfortable, where you're getting to do what you
love every day, I think is quite healthy. Hopefully, Sorry
for giving you some of my life theories there. That's

(01:01:31):
probably not what you're expecting.

Speaker 2 (01:01:33):
Right, that was very reasonable.

Speaker 5 (01:01:37):
I think you're right as well, obviously to a certain point,
if you suddenly have all those things. And I've seen this.
Actually we had.

Speaker 4 (01:01:46):
S. J.

Speaker 5 (01:01:47):
Watson on the show and his first book sold millions
of copies. It just went straight out of the gate.
And he's talked to us and on other podcasts about
how difficult that was because every book after that has
not at the same level of success. He's constantly striving
to hit that again. And it's like, like you said,

(01:02:09):
it's almost like winning the lottery. So's he's had so
much success, been won so many awards with that first book,
and then he struggled to capture that sort of same feeling,
and he's discussed himself about how difficult it is to
write that next book and you know, get it out there,
and then when he did do that and it didn't

(01:02:31):
sell anywhere here as well, he really knocks his confidence massively.
So I think you're right in terms of keeping that
extramental sort of like balance between you know, slowly building
on that success and seeing the progress. I think it's
definitely something to be said there about that.

Speaker 2 (01:02:47):
Absolutely. Yeah, really good.

Speaker 1 (01:02:49):
Okay, So just to wrap this up then, Peter, where
can people find more information about you? Where can they
stalk you on social media and all that kind of
good stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:02:59):
Yeah, you can find my website at peteremgibbons dot com.
You can also find me on my Amazon page. If
you search up Peter Gibbons Orter, you'll find my Amazon
page there where you can follow, where you can follow
my stuff and all my work as well. And if
you look in the historical fiction or the Viking genre,
you'll see they'll see my books popping up there, and

(01:03:21):
luckily some of them are some of them are still
best sellers, thank god.

Speaker 4 (01:03:24):
So yeah, you can find me at all those places.

Speaker 2 (01:03:28):
Well, you will be finding yourself a new reader.

Speaker 1 (01:03:30):
From from my side of things, definitely I will be
delving into that saga of Viking stories. And just before
we do wrap this up, when more little comment about
KDP the storyteller would what final message you have for
somebody who's on the fence right now.

Speaker 3 (01:03:51):
I would just say if you, I don't understand why
you would not enter it when all you've got to
do is use one of your seven or eight keyword
slots and just write Kindle Storyteller Awarding it, Like it's
as simple as that. You don't have to pay anything
or go to any crazy lens to enter the competition
or write a synopsis or any of that kind of

(01:04:12):
head wrecking stuff.

Speaker 4 (01:04:14):
All you've got to do is put a keyword in that.
That's what I did and I ended up winning.

Speaker 3 (01:04:19):
And there's lots of people with that same story. So
if you've got a book coming out within the timeframe,
go for it. Because the award isn't decided by the
way they come to the shortlist is they look at
kind of readers' reviews and stuff. So a lot of it,
like getting to that final five, is based on if
people like your book or not, not, if the judges

(01:04:41):
like it. So I'd say, if you've got a good
story and people are people are going to enjoy it,
then to just put the keyword in definitely amazing.

Speaker 5 (01:04:51):
Anything else with me, Chris, Yeah, I was just going
to pick your brain one last time in terms of
being a professional and bringing the readership towards you. I've
read a really good book by c. Cam Down recently
and at the end of it, he had a little
QR code that you could scan with your phone and
it took you to a video and then he explained

(01:05:12):
some of the decisions behind how he created his characters
and stuff. And it was like a ten minute video,
but it took you to his website and then it
had links to all other books and stuff. I was
just wondering what sort of tips you have in terms
of putting them in your book to sort of generate
more interest in you as an author.

Speaker 4 (01:05:30):
So what I do.

Speaker 3 (01:05:32):
My go to thing is referring people to my mailing
list because I find that that is the best. So
whenever I have a new book coming out, I'll send
an email to all my subscribers and most of those
guys will pre order the book straight away, you know.
But the way I get my subscribers. Is in every
book I kind of have at the start. You know,

(01:05:53):
if you're going to enjoy this book, please subscribe to
my mailing list if you and I have something to
give away. So like in the Viking but and Blade series,
if you sign up to my mailing list on there,
you get the historical fantasy book for free. And in
my thriller series, I wrote like some short stories featuring
the characters, so and then I have that same page

(01:06:16):
at the end of the book, so if people liked it,
and on the KDP service, when you're loading it up
at the end, you can the link is a clickable link,
you know, so someone's on their Kindle or whatever it
might be, they can click that link and go straight.

Speaker 4 (01:06:30):
To your mailing list and just sign up. And that
for me has been that for me has worked really
really well.

Speaker 3 (01:06:37):
And I also try and put them at the back
of every book, the link to the next book.

Speaker 4 (01:06:42):
So even if it's not ready at the start, I'll
leave it.

Speaker 3 (01:06:45):
But when the book eight or book seven is ready,
I go back to book six and put the page
in and re reupload it, you know. So those two
things have always worked really well for me. So it's
the mailing list at front and back, and then it
is the it's the blurb and the link to the
next book at the back of the book, you know.

Speaker 4 (01:07:04):
And I find that those simple things work really well.

Speaker 3 (01:07:07):
But I love that idea, Chris, about the video and
the discussion about the character.

Speaker 4 (01:07:11):
That's good.

Speaker 5 (01:07:12):
Now, Yeah, it was really good. And the reason I
mentioned it is I would love more authors to do it,
because yeah, it was just brilliant. It was obviously, I
just finished reading it. It was a nice little surprise at
the end. It did give me a bit more insight
into the characters. It made me laugh and things like that,
so and I was like, yeah, when that next book
comes out, I'm definitely getting it.

Speaker 4 (01:07:31):
So that's it.

Speaker 3 (01:07:32):
And that's what you want, mate, That is all you
want is when someone's finished your book, you hope, and
you want that they've enjoyed it enough to read the
next one.

Speaker 4 (01:07:41):
You know. That's really what we're all what we're all
aiming for.

Speaker 2 (01:07:44):
Absolutely brilliant. That's a great advice there, Chris.

Speaker 1 (01:07:48):
I haven't heard about that either, So yeah, that's something
we should look into. Peter, Thank you so so much
for joining us and telling us your story. It's it's
a wonderful story, and you know, I hope it continues
and that success that you've worked on so hard continues
to go forward, and I'm sure it will do.

Speaker 2 (01:08:04):
So thank you for sharing all that with us.

Speaker 3 (01:08:06):
Thanks, guys, I enjoyed that. Thanks for your time, and
thanks for having me on. I appreciate your support.

Speaker 2 (01:08:11):
Thank you, very very welcome. So from us, guys, we
have no show this Friday because we'll.

Speaker 1 (01:08:17):
Be live from the Hurrogate crimewrit As Festival Thursday through
to Sunday. You'll be expecting to see a lot of
live streaming from us from there, and we'll be doing
lots of all the interviews as well, So yeah, keep
an eye out on social media.

Speaker 2 (01:08:29):
Is that we're going to go and have ourselves a
great time.

Speaker 1 (01:08:32):
So we'll see you back on this platform for another
interview in two weeks. But between now and then, if
you haven't caught up with three hundred and sixty plus interviews,
I'm sure there'll be something there you haven't seen that.

Speaker 2 (01:08:43):
You can catch up with.

Speaker 1 (01:08:44):
But don't forget to leave a light to this video,
leave a comment, and go and find Peter on social
media and buy his books today, all tomorrow.

Speaker 2 (01:08:52):
Whenever you see this so from us, it's thank you.
Have a great week everybody. Bye to back

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