The Honest Editor: Bestselling Author Phoebe Morgan Reveals the Truth About Publishing and the Perfect Hook.

In this exclusive interview, we sit down with Phoebe Morgan, the rare publishing powerhouse who has seen success on both sides of the desk. As an Executive Fiction Publisher at Simon & Schuster and a Sunday Times bestselling author of psychological thrillers like The Trip and The Doll House, Phoebe offers unparalleled insight into the world of commercial fiction.What You’ll Learn:The Editor’s Secrets: Phoebe lifts the lid on the opaque world of the Big 5 publishers, revealing exactly what editors look for in a submission and how books truly get acquired, marketed, and turned into bestsellers.The Perfect Hook: Discover the critical element that separates a book club hit from a manuscript that fails to launch. Phoebe breaks down the commercial “hook” and how authors can use it to sell their stories.Mastering Psychological Thrillers: Get an inside look at her writing process, including how she plots (or doesn’t plot) her high-stakes suspense novels and balances a demanding full-time job with a prolific writing career.If you’re an author serious about navigating the industry, understanding the market, and writing a bestseller, this interview is essential viewing.Buy Pheobe’s latest book, The Trip, here.Podcast LinkListen to the full audio episode wherever you get your podcasts:Listen on Spreaker (The Writing Community Chat Show Podcast)Join our brand new community on our Stanstore! After conducting 360 plus interviews, we have compiled digital products to help your writing. Plus, community members get access to our live writing sprints where we write with you, keep you accountable, and give you free access to our 1-on-1 video coaching. There are forum like tabs in our community group where you can post work and receive advice, plus, much more. Join here: https://stan.store/TheWCCS

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit thewccs.substack.com/subscribe

Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-writing-community-chat-show--5445493/support.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello everybody, and welcome to the Writing Community chat show.
We've got a great guest for you tonight, someone who
walks both sides of the publishing world as an author
and as someone who works in the business and knows
a lot about it, so you're in for a real treat.
I am here without my co host tonight because he
is still in work.

Speaker 2 (00:17):
You know.

Speaker 1 (00:17):
We mentioned how we do our day jobs around this
and have done for nearly six years, so yes, we
put the graft in and we do the shows where
we can. So I'm sure he will catch up on
this as it's an interview. He's looking forward to consuming
and I hope you are too, So I'm going to
introduce our guests and get straight into it. So she
is somebody who has released five best five times best

(00:38):
selling I'll start that again. She is a five time
best selling author of psychological thrillers, including The smash Hits,
The Wild Girls, and the most recent page turn of
the Trip by Day. She's an award winning executive publisher
at a major UK house, responsible for acquiring and publishing
commercial fiction for some of the biggest names in the genre.
If that wasn't enough, she's also a decade a decoration.

(01:02):
She's also dedicated to domestifying the industry through a highly
popular substack newsletter, The Honest Editor. She has un paralleled
three hundred and sixty degree view on how to write
a book, how to get it published, and how to
turn it into a best seller. And I can't wait
to get stuck into it all. So please help me
in giving a nice, big, warm welcome to the amazing
Phoebe Morgan.

Speaker 2 (01:22):
Hello, Phoebe, Hi.

Speaker 3 (01:24):
Thanks for that nice introduction. That was very lovely.

Speaker 2 (01:27):
You're welcome.

Speaker 1 (01:27):
It was great until I stumbled a couple of times,
but yeah, thank you for joining us.

Speaker 2 (01:31):
I hope you're doing well.

Speaker 3 (01:33):
My pleasure, thank you for having me.

Speaker 2 (01:35):
You're welcome.

Speaker 1 (01:35):
I literally just not my speaker off, hence the reason
I was a little bit distracted. Yeah, you're welcome. I'm
so glad to get you on the show. We love
having people on hearing the stories. But as I mentioned,
you've done it on both sides, and you work on
both sides, and it's great to have all those sort
of all those sorts of bits of advice that we
can take from you and your vision in the two

(01:57):
different sides of the world. So yeah, I'm looking forward
to it great.

Speaker 3 (02:01):
Yeah, I am. Yeah, happy to talk about both sides.
So whatever works for you.

Speaker 1 (02:05):
Yeah, how's your week been? First of all, that's a
question I normally start with, So how has it been
for you?

Speaker 4 (02:11):
So, as I said before we start recording, it's just
been very busy. I joined my new job, Simon and
Schuster one month ago, so it's a brand new job
for me. It's very exciting, but I'm still in that stage,
you know, when you start a new job and you're
just getting to know everybody, having lots and lots of meetings,
meeting my team, meeting my authors. So it's been very invigorating.

(02:34):
But it has just been been quite busy. But other
than that, it is. Yeah, it's great. I like getting
my I like getting suck in, so I'm enjoying it.

Speaker 2 (02:42):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:42):
I can imagine stepping into something like that must be
quite overwhelming, but also at the same time very exciting.

Speaker 3 (02:48):
Yeah, exactly, I think it is.

Speaker 4 (02:50):
And you know, it's a really great list at Simon
and Schuster, and it's a brilliant team. I think what
it is is my previous job was at Hodder, which
was part of Hasche. So I start I finished that
job on a Friday a month ago.

Speaker 3 (03:02):
Then I had one weekend.

Speaker 4 (03:04):
Then I started the new job on a Monday, and
on the Tuesday, I went to Frankfurt to the Frankfort book.

Speaker 3 (03:08):
There for the rest of that week.

Speaker 4 (03:10):
So I was just you know, I didn't have very
much time to kind of settle in or relax in
between jobs, which is fine. I don't really need that time,
to be honest, it's fine, but I it's just a
change of pace because also when you're on your notice period,
as you probably know, like same with any industry, you
kind of slow down in the last three months and
then so it's like a real gisshift, sudden like oh okay,

(03:30):
now I need to really really speed up.

Speaker 2 (03:32):
Yeah, brilliant.

Speaker 1 (03:34):
Well hopefully we can get a bit more on that
in a little bit. But where are you from? Where
are you joining us from?

Speaker 3 (03:40):
I live in London. I live in South London near Brixton.

Speaker 1 (03:43):
Okay, And the question I love to ask, and it's
always interesting. The answer varies quite a lot. Generally, it's
about how the author connection is where you are. So
that's like people who might be reading your books or
you know, fellow work co workers, as the industry you
work in, but is there much of a connection there
physically or do you do most of your interactions online.

Speaker 3 (04:05):
I try to do lots of things in person. I'm
not originally from here.

Speaker 4 (04:10):
I grew up in Suffolk, so I often try to
go back and do bookshop talks in Suffolk, and I
do do some in London as well. You know, I
think in publishing a lot of people in the industry
that live in London and around London, so there's people
that live nearby, and equally there's there's writers that live nearby.

(04:30):
But I don't mind traveling. So for example, the other
weekend I went to the Stratford on Avon Literary Festival,
so I did a whole day there, which was really great,
and I have a few other.

Speaker 3 (04:40):
Things coming up.

Speaker 4 (04:42):
You know. I like to try and meet other writers
in person and meet readers in person where possible, but
it's also it's also good to have the online connections.
And you know, I think obviously we're a long way
past the pandemic now, thank thank goodness, but especially during
the pandemic, I just found it so great to be
able to use I guess that point it was in
a better place than it is now. So I remember

(05:03):
having like a lot of conversations with authors online then,
and you know, things like this really helpful for aspiring
writers and established writers and publishers to be able to
connect online if for some reason you can't get out.

Speaker 1 (05:16):
Yeah, it was during COVID that this show kind of emerged,
and Twitter was a big reason for that. But you know,
it's it's definitely a different place now. But I read
somewhere that you had raised a lot of money during
COVID for charity and to deal with books.

Speaker 3 (05:31):
I did, I did, I forgot.

Speaker 4 (05:32):
Actually I did this thing called Books for Vaccines, which
was essentially I just set it up as an auction.
It was inspired by somebody did one for Grenfell when
the Grenfell Tower disaster happened, and you can do it
was like an online auction, so I asked people in
the publishing industry to donate items or their time. So

(05:53):
it was like sets of sign books or it was
like one to ones with publishers or agents, and I
ended up having some really good stuff, like I had,
you know, signed stuff from JK. Rowling, Hillary Mantel, all
the kind of big publishers and agents gave their time
and we raised a thousand pounds for a charity that
was providing the COVID vaccine to underdeveloped countries.

Speaker 3 (06:16):
At that point.

Speaker 4 (06:18):
It was there were called Care International, the charity, and
I worked with their tea. You know, I did it
all by myself really, but then the team, you know,
they were really happy and they were very supportive still
and I sometimes still say hello to them. So yeah,
everyone from the industry was was really helpful. I think
it was at the time where we had the vaccine
and I was also really really anxious in the pandemic.

Speaker 3 (06:38):
I hated it.

Speaker 4 (06:39):
I was just really stressed out, not necessarily about getting ill,
but about near the world never being the same again.
I got very very in my head about it, and
so when we in the UK had access to the vaccine,
I just hated the idea that not everybody did. So
obviously it's only a drop in the ocean really, but
it was nice to try and do something to give back.
And I think the publishing industry can be really good
at that, Like when people valley around, they can they

(07:02):
can make it a bit of a difference. So that
was that was really nice.

Speaker 1 (07:05):
Yeah, it's amazing and congratulations and well done. Because that
sixty thousand pounds. There is no short you know kind
of fundraising efforts.

Speaker 4 (07:12):
It kind of spiral, to be honest, I was not
expecting to raise sixty grand. And I remember because when
you do an online auction, it was a really good platform.

Speaker 3 (07:19):
Actually it was really easy to do.

Speaker 4 (07:20):
But you could beard up until midnight on like the
last day, and I was so I was monitoring it.
I got really obsessed with it because it was growing
so much, and then you know, the Guardian covered it
and it got a lot of a lot of profile
from that, and then so the last five minutes, like
it jumped up maybe like fifteen grand or something like
in literally the last five minutes because everybody like swooped
in with these final bids and then it cut off

(07:42):
at mid night.

Speaker 3 (07:43):
But it was kind of exciting. I remember, I was like, oh,
what was it going to get to? But I was
very surprised by how well it went. But you know,
it's all for a good cause, so.

Speaker 2 (07:51):
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And you mentioned about, you know, sort
of literary festivals.

Speaker 1 (07:55):
There's something that I've only been to as a result
of doing interviews for about how I get crime Writers Festival.
We're looking to go to the London Book Fair to
do interviews in March. But I've found them to be
really good and for authors to get involved, I think
is a really big step and something that's very productive
for them.

Speaker 2 (08:14):
Although a lot of indie.

Speaker 1 (08:14):
Authors might not kind of want to step into that world,
but it's really worth doing. What's your experience being like
at these literary festivals?

Speaker 4 (08:21):
So I go and sort of dual capacities, so some
I go to as a writer and some I go
as a publisher.

Speaker 3 (08:28):
I mean I like them. It depends what sort of
person you are.

Speaker 4 (08:30):
I suppose not everybody likes to be in a big,
crowded space, but I do think they can be. You know,
I've met some brilliant authors at those festivals, so yeah,
I think they're good.

Speaker 3 (08:42):
I mean for authors, you don't.

Speaker 4 (08:43):
I think sometimes authors think they need to go to
the Frankfurt Book Fair or the London Book Fair, but
they do. You know, if you have a specific event
or something, then yes you can. But they're mainly like
trade trade fairs, so for authors, it's more beneficial to
go to literary festivals or events, you know, bookshops, libraries,
I really love library events. I love to try and

(09:05):
support libraries and if you can use them in the
right way and make connections. And sometimes it's just nice
to go and hear a great author speak. I mean
I still get very stylestruck by sort of really famous
authors or authors that I've particularly loved, so sometimes I
just go to hear them speak, And as I said,
sometimes I go as a publisher. At Stratford, I did

(09:25):
a mix I did a workshop on about how to
find your hook and commercial fiction, and then I also
did one to ones with some writers like ten minutes
of time where they pitch their ideas to me and
I just give them some advice. And then the last
thing I did was a panel discussion about book jackets,
about what makes a good book jacket with.

Speaker 3 (09:44):
It with a designer was shared by another writer, and that.

Speaker 4 (09:48):
Was nice because it was a bit different and we
had like show and tell behind us on the screen,
so we could give examples of book jackets that have
worked and bookjackets haven't worked, and also the journey of
how you get a book jacket, which I think people
did actually find interesting. It's a bit different from just
like here's how you write book so you know, you
can pick and choose the events that film is relevant
to you.

Speaker 2 (10:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (10:06):
Absolutely, and we really do as much as they say
you shouldn't judge a book by the cover, but we
really do.

Speaker 4 (10:11):
That, yes, and it's extremely important from our publishing perspective,
like it's very very essential to get that right.

Speaker 1 (10:18):
Is that something that you have to deal with a
lot in terms of what the suggestions are for a
book and do you have much sort of say on
how it should look in your role?

Speaker 4 (10:28):
Yeah, I do have quite a lot of say So
I for my authors that are just my personal list,
I brief the jacket, so I fill out the form
and I say, this is what I think it should
look like. Here are the other authors that could sit
alongside in the market. Here's some ideas for what the
design could be. And then the designers go away at
work on that and usually come up with a range

(10:48):
of visuals and then you know, I give feedback and
we look at them as a team with sales and marketing, etc.
And then we show it to the author once we're
happy with it. Sometimes they don't like him and we
have to go back to the drawing board, which is fine, and.

Speaker 3 (11:04):
Because I oversee the list.

Speaker 4 (11:05):
Yeah, I sit in on the meeting and I look
at all my colleagues jackets coming through and say, you know,
whether I think they're working or not. But yeah, it's
very very important because it's how we you know, it's
the sales team use the jackets as a tool to
get good support from the retailers, So you know, it's
very important that we get it right.

Speaker 3 (11:21):
It's also important that the author likes the jacket.

Speaker 4 (11:23):
But sometimes authors who we try to ask them to
just listen to us a little bit on like the market,
because they don't always know that it's.

Speaker 3 (11:30):
Not their job to know that.

Speaker 4 (11:31):
Maybe different for INDI authors because they've probably spend more
time research in the market, but for traditional authors, it's
kind of not really their job.

Speaker 1 (11:38):
Has there ever been a situation where you've got to
cover that you absolutely love but the author just doesn't
want just doesn't want it.

Speaker 4 (11:45):
Yeah, yeah, I mean maybe not that I like love,
love love, but there's definitely been jackets that I like.
In fact, this week I had very two very opposing
I said out two jackets yesterday. One I got like
the nicest response I've ever had, probably in one of
the nicest ones in my career being I think actually beautiful,
like so happy with it, and the other one was
like I hate it, like read. I was like, so

(12:07):
like they one of them like balanced the other out
a little bit for me, but it is really you know.
With the one they didn't like, I said, Okay, that's fine,
you know, we'll sort it out. Get something that you
like because it's your book, it's your name on it.
The one that they loved, I was like, hey, that's fantastic.

Speaker 1 (12:20):
Yeah, perfect, all right, I'm going to play a very
quick video which will be the introduction to the road
to writing, because we want to find out how you
got to where you are now and that includes your
professional career in the industry and your author journey. So
going to play this little video and we'll rewind the
tape a bit and get.

Speaker 2 (12:35):
Stuck into that. Really, So, Phoebe, take us back then.

Speaker 1 (12:53):
What point in your life did you think writing is
something I want to do well?

Speaker 4 (12:59):
I would. I always liked the idea of writing. I
was always very interested in books and reading. I grew
up without television. My mum was quite anti television, so
I became a huge reader party because of that. She
was also a teacher, so she taught me to read
really early. I was very lucky, and I always liked
writing stories at school. I used to make little books

(13:21):
out of paper and to my grandma, but nobody else
with them, obviously.

Speaker 3 (13:26):
And then, in all.

Speaker 4 (13:28):
Honesty, I didn't really know that writing as a career
was an option. So I thought, you know, what can
I do as my job? And I ended up training
as a journalist because it was either that, I thought,
or be a teacher, and my mom said not to
be a teacher, so I did not pursue that, which
I'm pleased about now. But no, just teachers are amazing.

(13:50):
I just would wouldn't have been good enough at it.
So I became a trained journalist, started work as a journalist,
and then I didn't really like it, and I wasn't
very good at it. I was always trying to write
like to march, like my my articles were.

Speaker 3 (14:06):
Too flowery, and I remember my news editor would be like, okay,
but like what tell us? Like what when?

Speaker 4 (14:10):
Where, where, why, and you know all those things, and
I was just like, oh, I wanted to write be
more creative. And so I eventually started to apply for
publishing jobs and that was really hard. I got a
job as a publishing assistant at Octopus Books, which is
part of Haschet UK, which is one of the big
five publishers in the UK, and I started working on nonfiction.

(14:34):
I just administrative stuff and very kind of basic editorial
stuff and I was there for a few years, but
it was very difficult to actually get into the industry,
like I got a lot of rejections. I applied for
like every publishing job under the sun at entry level,
which I do recommend because I think it's good to
not pigeonhole yourself too early because it is quite competitive

(14:54):
to get in and you don't want to limit that,
and also your skills can be quite transferable. So that
was my first job in the publishing industry. And then
when I was in journalism, I also started to think
about writing. And actually one time I was at a
party in London and I was talking to someboy and
he was like, oh, what do you want to do,
and probably as trying to impress him, and I was like, oh,

(15:15):
I would like to be a writ I would like
to be a writer. And he said, well, why don't
you write a book?

Speaker 3 (15:19):
Then?

Speaker 4 (15:19):
Why haven't you done it? And I was like, oh,
and I was like, I remember his name. You know.
He was noted to not become a significant figure in
my life, but he actually kind of changed my life
because I was like, well, why haven't I done it?

Speaker 3 (15:31):
Like it was such a good point. I felt so
stupid when he said it.

Speaker 4 (15:34):
So then I went away and I wrote the first
draft of what became The Dollhouse, which was my debut novel.
And it was not a great first draft, I would say,
but it did exist. And at the time I was
not only working as a journalist every day, but I
was working as a babysitter and a barmaid and a
tutor in London because London is so expensive to live

(15:57):
in and I had zerry money. I don't come from
a very maneyed background, particularly, so I was just writing
like all random times and trying to make it work.
And then I sort of rather naively sent it out
to like a huge batch of literary agents. I really
hope most of them don't remember me, because now I
know them. It's really embarrassing. But I didn't know anything

(16:18):
about the industry in the way that I do now,
and so I was very lucky I got signed by
my agent Camilla.

Speaker 3 (16:24):
So I've been with her for about ten years now.

Speaker 4 (16:27):
I saw her last week and she then managed to
sell the first book and then the subsequent four, So
that's kind of that kind of just carried on then
once we got the deal, and then I started working
in the publishing industry. As I said, so then I
ever since then I have basically just done both. So

(16:47):
there was a kind of varied route in and you know,
having started in nonfiction, I then moved into fiction in
a role at HarperCollins and have since worked in commercial fiction,
and that was really where my passion lies, in both
the publishing side and the writing side.

Speaker 1 (17:02):
Yeah, that's it's fantastic, and it seems like a very
busy you know, you transition all the way through is
lots of jobs, lots of multitasking, and I think that's
play well into what you're doing now and still working
on the publishing side of it and your writing side.

Speaker 2 (17:17):
Did you have any idea then when you made.

Speaker 1 (17:19):
That first not great draft as you kind of mentioned
that your books would go into the successes and award
winning sort of books that they have been.

Speaker 3 (17:28):
No, I don't know.

Speaker 4 (17:29):
I don't think I ever thought the books would really,
I just didn't really know. I just wanted all I
could see was getting it finished. So in the first
draft it wasn't really a thriller. It was called The
Architect's Daughters, and it was a sort of like family
led book, plubby type novel about a father and his

(17:51):
two daughters and what happens after you.

Speaker 3 (17:54):
And then my agent read it and we met.

Speaker 4 (17:57):
For a coffee and she sort of gave me some
feedback and she said, you know, I really like X
y Z, but like, there's quite well, it did become
kind of quite fryy, and you know what about making
it into more of a piller. And I had never
really thought of that or considered it. But I went
away and she didn't actually sign me. Then she just
gave me this feedback and said, do you have afually

(18:17):
work on it. I would love to reread it. So
went away for a few months. I wrote it, I
really redrafted it, and then I sent it back to
her and then I'll never forget And then she called
me and I was in foils on sharing Cross Ferris,
which is very kind of fortunate, and I was in
foils with my friend having coffee in the cafe and
she called me, or she emailed me. Actually I think

(18:38):
she emailed me, so I obviously have forgot an eleidence
and I think she emailed me and she said, I
read your new draft.

Speaker 3 (18:44):
I loved it.

Speaker 4 (18:44):
I would absolutely love to sign you. And I was
so excited. But I hadn't told anyone, so I didn't.
I saw the email and pop up on my phone.
I did not tell my friend. I went to the
toilets and foils and I was like, so excited to you,
you know, like you know, I could love actually where
she goes where she's making out with that guy. Then
she goes across to the stairway and she's like, oh,
just has an excited moment on her own.

Speaker 3 (19:03):
It was a bit like that, and then I kind
of yeah.

Speaker 4 (19:07):
So then I signed with CAM and she continued to
do editorial work on it and then sent it out
and then did sell it. It did not sell super quickly.
It sold after quite a long time. We had like
a second round of editors that we sent it to.
Oh my god, that's so gutting. Like the first round,
it didn't sell. I remember, for some reason, she sent
me all the rejections on Christmas Eve. One year, I

(19:28):
had asked to see them, so she like, I did
ask to see them, and so I got this two
pages of like really nice rejections. They were rejections, and
I remember reading it on the way back to Stuffolk
for Christmers and just crying and being like, I'm never
going to sell it.

Speaker 3 (19:41):
So no, I did not expect them to sell.

Speaker 4 (19:44):
But once they did, you know, I could have been
on a trajectory.

Speaker 3 (19:47):
But you know, it's always stup and down.

Speaker 4 (19:49):
And at the moment, I'm writing book six and I
don't know whether even that that was not in contract
yet because my contract finished with the last one, and I,
you know, I had the job and I had lots
of stuff going on, so I took a bit longer
to write this book. But obviously I hope it will sell,
but there's no guarantees, so I think it's good to
you just have to keep perspective and you have to
keep going.

Speaker 3 (20:08):
And everybody has a writer has lots of ups and downs.

Speaker 2 (20:11):
I would say, yeah, definitely.

Speaker 1 (20:12):
I mean, I did a video this week on TikTok
about procrastination, not procrastination, what's the imposter syndrome? So yeah,
and it happens for everybody, whether you're starting out or
whether it's your fiftieth book in an amazing career, it
still happens. And we've had people tell us that on
the show. So it's nothing natural, you know. It's we're
always expecting, you know, or maybe seeing the worst of

(20:35):
what could happen, because nothing's guaranteed in this industry. So
it's all about belief and pushing it forward. I'm interested
to think, do you think you're like kind of publisher brain?
Does it interfere with how you write?

Speaker 2 (20:49):
Now?

Speaker 1 (20:50):
You know, because you know what to expect and not
what makes a good book, does that change or put
pressure on how you write?

Speaker 3 (20:57):
And A'll honestly know, I don't think so.

Speaker 4 (20:58):
I think when I write, I get very like in
the flow of it, and so I sort of ignore
everything else.

Speaker 3 (21:05):
I tend to write.

Speaker 4 (21:06):
I can write a lot in one sitting, so if
I sit down for like five hours, I could write
a lot.

Speaker 3 (21:10):
I don't really write in like short bursts, just because
of the way my brain works.

Speaker 4 (21:14):
I guess I wrote prefer to have one whole Saturday
and just focus on it, and then I wouldn't say
that I really think about the market that much. I think,
you know, commit my agent, she thinks about the market.
So when we had lunch last week, it was to
talk about book six and she said, oh, you know,
it needs to appeal to this readership and that, and
I was like, oh, yeah, I guess so. But I
hadn't me thought about it, because you just get very

(21:37):
in the zone. What I would say is, I think
the writing side makes me a better publisher. I think
it works the other way around, because I think it
does give me another layer of empathy when it comes
to understanding how my authors that I publish feel. And
I'm sure I don't always get it right, but I
do try and communicate with them in the way that
I would like to be communicated with. And I, you know,

(22:00):
I know what it's like to be sat on the
other side of it, waiting for an edit, or waiting.

Speaker 3 (22:03):
For a cover, or wondering why you haven't heard back.

Speaker 4 (22:06):
So I try my hardest not to leave them in
the dark, and to you know, give them edits that
make sense. But I also always say, you know, you
don't have to do these. I'm not going to like
hold a gun to your head and make you do
these edits like it's a collaboration. This is what I think, Like,
what do you think, like, how can we work on
this together to get it into the best day it
can be? And so I hope that it makes me

(22:27):
a better publisher in that way.

Speaker 1 (22:29):
What's your advice then, for someone maybe a debut author
that's starting to work with an editor, what advice have
you got for them to have a good sort of
long lasting relationship with that editor.

Speaker 4 (22:39):
I think it's important that you do listen to your editor.
I mean, obviously I would say that, but it really
is meant to be a partnership. And I think that
we want authors who will work with us and meet
us halfway.

Speaker 3 (22:51):
And if an author is.

Speaker 4 (22:54):
If an author is really difficult, it will you know,
it becomes difficult for us as well, you know, being
as a battle and this does happen sadly, like everything
is a battle, and that we're always want you know,
it's exhausting, you know, with like with any.

Speaker 3 (23:07):
Industry, like any job, and this doesn't happen all the time.

Speaker 4 (23:09):
It is rare, but you know, we obviously want people
who are kind of privative and they're competing players, people
that are you know, able to meet deadlines, is great
and people that you obviously build a trusting, honest relationship.
So I don't need my authors to put me on
a pedestal, and I won't put them on a pedestal.
Like I think it's better to just be like, we're
all adults, Like, let's talk about this thing. If your

(23:31):
book hasn't sold, let's talk about why what can we do?
These are the factors that might have influenced it.

Speaker 3 (23:37):
You know, if it's an.

Speaker 4 (23:37):
Editorial point, let's explain why I think this, and you
say why do you think that?

Speaker 3 (23:41):
And maybe there's a third solution.

Speaker 4 (23:44):
You know, I always thinking for editors, part of your
job is not to fix the problem per se, but
identify the problem and then help the writer develop the answer,
because I really do want it to be the author's book.
And you know, it is so frustrating if you have
an editor to say like, oh, why don't you just
change this and do XYZ for note? And you're like,
well why, Like it's the same like why can't we
use mad? And so I want people to have that

(24:06):
kind of orthoial control.

Speaker 3 (24:09):
So I don't think I've answered the question.

Speaker 4 (24:11):
Really, I think I guess we just went on to
collaborative that is responsive, that is happy to meet us halfway,
and that you know that that that that realizes that
we're in a partnership.

Speaker 3 (24:21):
And of course yeah, we're paying the user, so there
is that power dynamic.

Speaker 4 (24:24):
But really, the long term careers of writers and editors
I think are based on real partnerships.

Speaker 2 (24:31):
Yeah, that's a good answer, thank you.

Speaker 1 (24:33):
I think I think it makes a lot of sense,
you know, to have that sort of open and transparent
relationship and communication, because that's the best way it's going
to work.

Speaker 4 (24:41):
Right.

Speaker 1 (24:43):
So from your point of view, do you see any
sort of common mistakes in say an opening chapter or
manuscript that might put you off like a good promising
sort of story.

Speaker 4 (24:55):
I think if the story is promising enough, then we
can change the first chapter.

Speaker 3 (24:59):
I do. Do you think a lot of writers.

Speaker 4 (25:02):
Fall into the trap of sort of feeling they have
to set up the story before going into the story.
So I don't mean you have to open with some
sort of car chase or something dramatic, but you can
open with something that has impact. And I think it's
very important to like consider your first line on your
first page because we do get a lot of submissions
and you want yours to stand out. I always reference

(25:23):
to Liz Nugent. She's the Irish crime writer of Lying
in Wait and Strange, Sally Diamond and Unraveling Oliver and
some others, and I just think every single book of hers,
the first line is incredible. I should I should actually
memorize them because I always refer to them, but I
actually can't think of them off my head.

Speaker 3 (25:38):
But they are really really good.

Speaker 4 (25:40):
So have a look at that if you want to
an example of a good first line. And I think
it's important to realize that, you know, you don't have
to start. You wouldn't believe how many submissions we get,
which is like the writer or the protagonist is like
stuck in a traffic jam and it's raining, and it's like,
oh my god, so like you know, like you know,
can you just get to something, like you know, whether

(26:02):
it's a great character observation or a great line of
dialogue or something. You don't really have to set up
the story and then do the story. You should be
able to do those simultaneously. I think that's the biggest
mistake I see.

Speaker 1 (26:12):
You know, I think a lot of people are may
be afraid to start with dialogue as the open.

Speaker 4 (26:19):
Yeah, I think and dialogue is really hard. I wouldn't
say I was a super expert a dialogue, but I
think it's just it's just trying to grab the reader
in straight away and not feeling like, you know, readers
a smart You know you haven't got to like set
everything up, and then you know it's no good saying oh,
but just get to chapter three, and then it all
gets really good because it's like, unfortunately you won't get

(26:41):
we as agents and editors, we will not get to
chapter three if your first chapter is not strong enough.
So you know, really, if you've got to pick I mean,
obviously the whole book should be good, but like if
you're going to put your energy anywhere, like really try
and hone the beginning. If you have a really strong
concept in the beginning doesn't work. But you know, for
some reason, I carried carried on reading.

Speaker 3 (26:59):
We can make changes. Your book hasn't got.

Speaker 4 (27:01):
To be perfect when it comes to us, because otherwise,
I mean, I wouldn't have a really a job.

Speaker 3 (27:04):
So is not perfect?

Speaker 1 (27:06):
Yeah, absolutely, And I've got a bit of a quote
here that I thought was really interesting, So I'm going
to try and pull a question out of it the
CEO with Simon and Schuster, I can never say that properly, Shuster.

Speaker 3 (27:17):
Yeah, I can't really say I'm honest.

Speaker 1 (27:19):
So I need to learn that you are sharp, creative
and commercially astute, with a brilliant eye talent and a
real passion for publishing books that connect at scale, which
is an amazing thing to be said about you. Yeah,
but what I see there is a brilliant eye for talent.
So this might help the people trying to get to
work with people like yourself. So what jumps out is

(27:42):
you as talent in an author? What is your draw
to them?

Speaker 3 (27:46):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (27:47):
I think some of it is subjective, like some of
it is the voice, And it's always important to remember
that when you're trying to get published, you do you
only need one person to say yes. So I might
love your voice, but another editor we might not love
your voice.

Speaker 3 (28:01):
And that's okay.

Speaker 4 (28:02):
You know, you haven't got to be the talk of
the town or like in a huge bidding or obviously
nice if you are, but realistically not many people are.

Speaker 3 (28:10):
So keep that in mind. Yeah. For me, I think
it's like, is there is there a strong.

Speaker 4 (28:15):
Enough concept here that I can turn into a book,
So a manuscript is not a book. So it's like,
is there something here idea wise or concept wise that
I can see a clear cover title, reach to market, sales,
pitch for in commercial fiction I'm speaking about. And then
in terms of the writer's style, like do I feel

(28:37):
in safe hands? Do I feel as though they are
in control of what they're writing, or does it feel
a little bit all over the place, So if they
haven't quite found their voice yet, what I don't want
when I'm reading is to feel like anxious that there's
going to be some sort of mad twist that doesn't
make sense, or you know, too many characters thrown in there.
Those are some of the common mistakes I see. So

(29:00):
you know it is important for you as a writer
to try and be true to your voice and also
practice like you're not going to necessarily be like a
brilliant writer on the first draft. As I say, my
first book, I'm not. I hate that book, like I
don't really read it. I did a book plubthing the
other day and people ask me about it. In all honesty,
I've forgotten the plot. I was like, I don't know
why I wrote that bit I was like twenty five
years old when I wrote it, you know, twenty four,

(29:21):
So like, I mean, I shouldn't say that. I'm grateful
for the book. I think what it gave me, but
it's not my favorite, you know. I think I became
a better writer as I carried on. And the book
i'm writing now, book six. I hope if I get
to the finish line, I will be proud of it
because it's I've tried to be a mature you know,
I'm writing it ten years later, so hopefully I'm more
mature and that's okay. And for you as a writer,
you can practice, you know, when I was in America,

(29:44):
I studied in America and I did a creative writing
module at the University of Illinois, and that was amazing
because I got proper feedback from the students and the teacher.
I was also a student from the rest of the class,
my peers, and that was really helpful just to know,
because you know, at that point I was like, can
I even write? And it was fairly positive, so I
was like, Okay, I can. But also some of it

(30:06):
was constructive, So be open to feedback. Join a writers' group,
you have to be able to share your work with
others if you cannot keep it all to yourself forever,
because if you never share anyone, well, you won't ever
get published and be you won't get a sense of
how to grow and develop. So I think it's I
think it's being you know, aware when when I'm looking
at talent, I'm looking at you know, does this person

(30:28):
have have the voice, do they have the tenacity? Do
they have what it takes? You know, I don't massively
want to buy loads of sort of one of books.
I would prefer to build all this book on book
over their career. And you know, for you know, you
haven't got to run any awards or you don't have
to do expensive courses, but you know, I do think
you have to take it seriously what you want to do.

Speaker 1 (30:51):
Yeah, that's something that's very apparent through the interviews we've
had as well. It's in the authors that treat things
like the writing is like a career, the ones that
kind of make it more successful. And I'm going to
ask this question because I know someone probably would have
thought that when you said it, you mentioned about not
having too many characters is kind of a bit of
a flag. What would that consist of how many characters

(31:12):
roughly do.

Speaker 2 (31:12):
You think that is?

Speaker 4 (31:14):
So there are exceptions, there are authors that can pull
this off, obviously, but in general, I think you don't
really need more than a handful, like realistically you would,
I would say more than more than five, you know.
I think if you're using different points of view, which
I do a lot on my books, you know some
of them. I think I have three or even four
points of view. But a lot of the time my

(31:35):
editor would tell me you need to differentiate these voices
for because they all sound a bit the same, sound
like you and I find it very hard abouting male voices.
So I challenged myself on that sometimes with certain books.

Speaker 3 (31:48):
Sometimes I've read it. In book six, I was like,
I'm just not going to bother trying male voice system.

Speaker 4 (31:52):
But yeah, so be aware of the points of view
and poiferal characters. Like of course you can have like
reference minor characters, but in terms of characters that feel
real and three dimensional. Say you're writing a book which
is like three hunred and fifty pages. When it's printed
out as a book, you don't have the space to
develop twenty characters in that book, and it's better to

(32:15):
have a smaller cast where the characters feel three D
and have the reading room on the page than it
is to have a large cast. So I would really
say it's basically a handful. Yeah, and you can just
have one and lots of books are just one main character.

Speaker 1 (32:28):
Fine, yep, absolutely, I'm going to play part two, which
is what's the story? And then when we come back
from that, hopefully you remember the trip.

Speaker 3 (32:37):
Yeah, Yeah, that's what that.

Speaker 1 (32:38):
Yeah, give us a sort of pitch for that, and
then I'll ask a few questions around that. So part two,
what's the story? Can write up, sophoebe the trip?

Speaker 2 (32:59):
What's that all about? Can you let us know? So?

Speaker 4 (33:02):
The Trip is my fifth book, my most recent one.
It is set in Thailand between Bangkok and Kosamit, which
is a small island off the coast of Bangkok, and
it's about two couples who go on holiday together. It's
supposed to be the trip of a lifetime. While they
are on holiday, a stranger from one of their pasts
appears one night in a hostel where they're staying in Bangkok,

(33:24):
and for one of those characters, this person's reappearance is
going to kind of ruin everything that they have set
up in their life that they have now. So I
can't spoil the ending, but it's a thriller and it
explores themes of class, friendship and also domestic abuse, so

(33:47):
it is essentially I hadn't written a book before about couples.
One before that was about four friends, female friends, and
I had written a lot about family in the first couple,
but this one I wanted the idea of two different couples.

Speaker 3 (34:03):
One couple is a lot more wealthy than.

Speaker 4 (34:05):
The other one, so there's sort of dynamics around like
what they can and can't afford to do when they
go out to Thailand, and like who's paying for everything,
and that creates tension as well, and then there's sort
of tensions within, you know, Like I was a bit
like white load to see, you know, like if there's
tension within each couple and then there's tension within or four,
it creates more dynamics for me as a writer to
play with. And it was really fun writing about Thailand,

(34:28):
like it was great to set it somewhere abroad. At
the time of writing, I had not been to Thailand,
But then last year I went to Thailand after I
had written the book because I wanted to check that
it was how luckily it was, and you know, mainly
but I had done a lot of research and these
days you can you know. I literally watched a video
that someone had taken of them getting off the plane

(34:50):
in Bangkok, and like they filmed themselves all the way
from the plane right to the outside. So I was
able to describe the airport. I read a guybook about Thailand.
I read lots of traveler blocks, you know, I looked
at the hostels online, so it's amazing obviously as amazing resource.

Speaker 3 (35:05):
So it's a quote quote of the other.

Speaker 4 (35:08):
So yeah, I was able to do a lot of research,
but it was great to go and see.

Speaker 3 (35:14):
It for myself.

Speaker 2 (35:15):
Yeah, I love it.

Speaker 1 (35:16):
That's kind of a backwards way of doing it, but
I love that, Yeah, because people would love to use,
you know, an excuse to go on a holiday for research.

Speaker 2 (35:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (35:25):
I did the same for my second novel. I based
it in weirdly in Quebec in Canada for no reason.
But yeah, I kind of use Google images and all
that for the street view and just really use that.

Speaker 2 (35:36):
For description side of things.

Speaker 1 (35:38):
So it is a real good tip for people who
were thinking I want to set something somewhere without you know,
going on the holiday.

Speaker 2 (35:44):
Well that's kind of a nice thing to do as well. Yeah,
we just talked about characters.

Speaker 1 (35:48):
So you've got four characters in this, all you know,
mixed up in secrets and betrayals and all of those
good things. So was there any character out those four
that were really tricky to sort of get hold of
and find their voice?

Speaker 3 (36:01):
Yeah, I would say so.

Speaker 4 (36:02):
So the couples are so THEO and Saskia are the
wealthy couple, and Saskia it's probably as obvious when you
start reading it. So Saskia is is hiding something and
it was hard to kind of feed that in at
the right moment and have which is always the case
with psychological thrillers. You know, you have to think, Okay,

(36:23):
at what point am I going to reveal things to
the reader? And is she a reliable narrator who knows so?
And she is someone who has kind of formed herself
a new identity. So she's now married to THEO, she's
come into a lot of money, she is, you know,
wearing a flashy engagement ring that the other woman is
sort of a bit like over and so it's sort

(36:46):
of about like how do we how do we shake
off the version of ourselves from twenty years ago? And
who do we become and how far can we escape
from the version that we were. That was the sort
of journey that Saskia goes on Abacan Fond of Saskia.

Speaker 3 (36:59):
And and I liked writing Lucas.

Speaker 4 (37:03):
So Lucas does have actually he does have a perspective
as a male in this yet but not in the
sixth one. But and so he's just meant to be.
You know, he's a teacher, he's not earning very much money.
He's very worried about money. So when they go to Thailand,
he feels like he can't keep up with THEO. And
so that was interesting for me to explore that idea
of I guess, masculinity and power and money and how

(37:23):
hard it can be to keep up with your friends,
the protagonists in the book at all in the early thirties,
and you know, that's the stage where some people have
bigger jobs than others, some people have higher salaries, some
people have children or different responsibilities, and you know, the
tensions can start to arise because some people you can't
keep up or you compare yourselves, and I thought that
was sort of interesting to explore, So that's yeah, that

(37:47):
was partly the inspiration for those characters. And again I
think it's you know, I hope there's something there to
appeal to lots of different readers who can see, like,
you know, elements of themselves in the characters. Don't always
write likable characters.

Speaker 3 (38:01):
I love.

Speaker 4 (38:02):
That's why I love this nusion because a lot of
her characters are just awful, like they're so awful to
each other, but they're so interesting psychologically. So yeah, for
you know as well, a lot of crime writers write
the psychical characters. But for me, when I'm speaking, and
I say this to authors as well, you know, your
characters haven't got to be likable, but you have to
understand them, so you don't have to love them, but
I think you.

Speaker 3 (38:21):
Have to empathize with them.

Speaker 4 (38:23):
And I struggle a bit with novels where you know,
someone is just a psychopathic and no real reason or
you know, and there's not really really a reason behind it.

Speaker 3 (38:32):
So I think that can be an issue in crime
novels as well.

Speaker 4 (38:35):
You have to take the time to think, Okay, why
is the person that's doing something wrong.

Speaker 3 (38:39):
Why are they doing it?

Speaker 4 (38:40):
Like?

Speaker 3 (38:40):
What is their around?

Speaker 4 (38:42):
Of course people are born. Some people are born, you know,
I want them to do about things. But I think though,
if you unpack it, you know there's usually something where
you can explore a bit of that.

Speaker 2 (38:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (38:52):
Absolutely, And interestingly, you know, going to the locations your books,
says your thriller has been set in the UK, Botswana
and of course tie. So why do you decide that
you want to change sort of locations for each of
your stories?

Speaker 4 (39:05):
Oh well, in the first three, I just wrote what
I knew. So the first one is set in London,
the second one is set in Essex, where I used
to live. The third one is set in Suffolk where
I grew up, and a bit in France. My ex
boyfriend had his uncle had like a beautiful house in France,
and I started writing it while we were on holiday there,

(39:25):
and so I basically just described the house. And then
the fourth one, The Wild Girls, I wrote in the
COVID pandemic. So to be honest, that was just a
response to feeling so desperately trapped, and that is the
easiest book I've ever written. In The Wild Girls, I
just kind of was so easy to write, and the
edits were really easy. It was the best experience, not
the same. I could not say the same for all

(39:46):
of them. And then after I'd done that, you know,
with the trip, I then was kind of I wanted
to explore somewhere further afield as well.

Speaker 3 (39:54):
Book six, I have come back to London.

Speaker 4 (39:55):
And I'm writing about areas that I have lived in,
So I wor have gone like, yeah, right, we know,
then do something else, then come back to what you know.

Speaker 3 (40:03):
So I guess it depends where you are in your
life as well. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (40:06):
No, it's really interesting, isn't it.

Speaker 1 (40:08):
And I think going from experience and writing off your
own experience can be really powerful because you know all
the feelings that come with it. So I think that's
a good advice for someone who's thinking about locations there.

Speaker 3 (40:19):
Yeah, I think it can help. And I'm not that
much of a stickler.

Speaker 4 (40:22):
I know some people, you know, they write Amazon reviews
and they say, well, that street does not connect with
that street, and I'm like, I don't really care about that, Like,
as long as it reads properly and it you know,
it feels grounded in reality. You know, it's difficult with London,
because publishing does have this elitist London problem and I
try not to set everything in London, but then if
you live in London, you do kind of want to
write about where you know in a way because you

(40:42):
feel so connected to it. But it's important that we
you know that as publishers, we publish a range of
voices from all different backgrounds, and I love things to
outside London as well.

Speaker 1 (40:51):
Yeah, you do a lot of stuff on your substack,
which is the honest editor, and that's really cool. A
substack is something we've been pushed in, not for anything
else other reason than I think it's great for authors
to kind of build that following it and showcase what
you need, what you do. And obviously that's what you're
do in terms of the editing side of things as well.

(41:11):
But you've also mentioned that you're going to release or
pre order your books on substack book six?

Speaker 2 (41:18):
Is that right?

Speaker 3 (41:20):
Have I?

Speaker 2 (41:23):
I thought it was.

Speaker 1 (41:24):
I read something that was about you're going to or
release preorders for on substack.

Speaker 2 (41:28):
Maybe I've got that.

Speaker 3 (41:30):
I don't think that's me, you know, I would like
to do that. I don't know, I don't know how
to do that.

Speaker 2 (41:33):
I was saying asking you about it, but.

Speaker 3 (41:37):
I literally don't know how to do that. I mean,
I think what I exposed, I could. I think I
know how to link, so I could be like you
can it.

Speaker 4 (41:42):
But it's not up for preorder yet because it isn't
under contract, so I don't think that that might be
something else.

Speaker 3 (41:46):
But yeah, I like subsack as a tool.

Speaker 4 (41:49):
I started my my substack a few months ago, and
it's saying that demestifying the publishing industry. So if I
do sell book six, I'm sure I will try to
get pre orders through it. And I think news letters
in general can be really effective for authors, So maybe
that's what you've read. There's a couple of authors that
I refer to who have brilliant newsletters that you know.

(42:09):
What it does is it builds like a kind of
like dedicated readership rather than sometimes like Twitter or Instagram,
where it's like a bit wider, you know, a bit
far flung, whereas subsec I think, and most news letter
platforms you're going direction to people's in boxes, and there's
you know, there's statistics showing that they are very effective
as a marketing tool. So I would like to know
more about subsect. In know, honestly, I don't really I

(42:31):
use it in a very basic way. So if you
find out how to do all this.

Speaker 1 (42:36):
Oh well, for us, we mentioned Twitter earlier, we built
a following up on Twitter for years when we started
the show, and obviously that kind of social side of
it is backed off a lot. So for us, having
lost a lot of fans off their followers of the show,
substack comes with its own emailing this. So that's the
benefit theme when it comes to authors using or updating

(42:56):
their work on there, or maybe just being social socially act.

Speaker 2 (43:00):
I I think that's a really good benefit. So there if.

Speaker 4 (43:04):
That, yeah, I agree, And it's a shame because I
honestly I use I loved like I used to really
connect with lots of people, fairly big following after a
few years and you know, not huge, but like you know,
I felt like it was following that I had built
and then I still have it, like I do use
it sometimes I promote subtect stuff onto there, but I

(43:25):
often you know, now when if I take my edifications
now it'll just be like loads of spam.

Speaker 3 (43:29):
I'm sure you get the same.

Speaker 4 (43:31):
And so it's not people that obviously are really using it,
and I do have a blue Sky account, but I
don't really use it, and I feel like people thought
it was going to take off, and.

Speaker 3 (43:38):
I don't really think it has.

Speaker 4 (43:40):
Maybe in the same way like so sub stuff, I
think a thought is great and I like the longer
form style of it for sure.

Speaker 1 (43:47):
Do you think, then, from your perspective, do do authors
need an author brands or an author of presence on say,
social platforms.

Speaker 3 (43:55):
I don't think they need one.

Speaker 4 (43:57):
I would say that if you can do it well
and you enjoy doing it, then I would advise that
you do do it because it allows you to connect
with with readers. And I think these days readers really
like to see behind the.

Speaker 3 (44:09):
Scenes and hear who their authors are.

Speaker 4 (44:11):
And you know, there are some people doing doing it
very well and successfully, I think in nonfiction, so the
nonfiction team in everywhere I have worked, they will often
buy books based on people's platforms, so you know, someone
will like huge, TikTok or Instagram and that will help
help them get a good book deal. It doesn't really
work so much that way in fiction. It can do sometimes,

(44:32):
but I always say it's really about whether you could
you think you can enjoy it. Like if you hate
it and you're bad at it, don't do it, Like
some people use it and it's not you know, it
doesn't look great, like, it's better just not to do it.
But if you can find the platform that works for you,
like it doesn't have to be you're on every single platform.

Speaker 3 (44:48):
But if you find a platform.

Speaker 4 (44:50):
Like I don't really use TikTok, for example, but I
do use Subsec and I do use Instagram a lot,
So those are the ones that I prefer. But find
the one that works for you and then explore it
and see how you go.

Speaker 2 (45:01):
Yep, awesome.

Speaker 1 (45:02):
Okay, we're going to go into part three of the show,
which is community questions. So I'm going to ask a
few staple questions and then we'll try and find out
a bit more about where people can find you and
all your books. But community questions coming up, so I phoebe.

(45:32):
This is where the questions get a little bit weird.

Speaker 2 (45:36):
In the best of way.

Speaker 1 (45:38):
Okay, if you could take any character from the word
of fiction and say drop it into the trip or
one of your novels, what character would you take him?

Speaker 2 (45:45):
Way?

Speaker 4 (45:46):
Oh gosh, that's hard, very hard. I'll take a character
I love. So I used to publish Kelly Taylor Cel Taylor.
She works out there and she knows this, but she
has a character called Ursula and have strangers, and I
mentioned it in a subsect the other day actually, And
I just think she was such a brilliant character.

Speaker 3 (46:05):
She was really well drawn. I think she's a keptooniac.
I just loved her.

Speaker 4 (46:11):
She was a great character, and so I would love
to like drop her in as like I think she
would make a cameo somewhere, like in the trip, they
go to all these kind of hot spots of Thailand
that people would recognize, like tourist spots, and it would
be fun if she was, like, I don't know, behind the.

Speaker 3 (46:25):
Counter somewhere when she walked past or something like that.

Speaker 4 (46:28):
Like I would love a cameo of like characters that
I have loved in fiction that I think are very
well drawn.

Speaker 2 (46:34):
So maybe yes, lah, yeah, cool? Okay, if you could
take the ending or something, whether this is a TV show,
a novel, or a movie and change the ending to something,
what ending would you change your way?

Speaker 4 (46:46):
Oh that's a good question too. So TV shows. One
of my favorite shows ever is The Affair. It was
on HBO, I think, and it had Dominic West and
Ruth Wilson, and what I liked about it was it
was almost like a novel. So it's about an affair,
but you see it from both the male and the

(47:06):
female perspective of the people having the affair. So part
one is the scene and then part two is the
same scene from Ruth Wilson's perspective. So it's all about
like how perspective works, Like we could both come away
from this call with different perspectives of how it went,
you know, and I'm very interested in that. And it
went for five seasons. I stuck with it. Seasons one

(47:26):
and two were amazing. Seasons three and four were bonkers.
They were just were so mad. They were not good.
Season five, I stayed with it. They pulled it back.
It actually was a good ending. But there was a
key character who was killed off, which I was I
think it must have been to do with the contract,
but I was very upset about it because it was
such a good series and I would definitely have changed that,
Like the character did not need to die. It made
no sense with what had happened before. But again, like

(47:49):
it's difficult with TV, and film, isn't it, because sometimes
there's things where you know, it's the actors contract all
financial reasons and it can ruin the story. But I
do still recommend it, and if you're interested in writing,
I do you think it's a good show to watch
because it's all about perspective and on the nuance of
of when people have affairs. You know, it's not always
that they're both bad people. It's just that there are

(48:09):
different things going on. I think, so yeah, worth a watch.

Speaker 2 (48:14):
Yeah. Interesting.

Speaker 1 (48:15):
It's really frustrating is that when you've got a big
series like five seasons and it just starts going off
the boil and it's like.

Speaker 4 (48:21):
Come on, yeah, but it was like, what was that
show that was his name was in House of Cards
where he suddenly was written out, So obviously that's a
bit unfortunate but well understatement, but yeah, it was. It's
tricky when when you've liked to show for a long
time and then it sort of has a bit of
a flat ending, and then same and same with novel.

Speaker 3 (48:38):
I can't think of a novel with a terrible ending
right now, but I'm sure that they do exist.

Speaker 2 (48:42):
Yes, I'm pretty sure they do.

Speaker 1 (48:45):
I'm interested then if your books say were optioned or
and another trip, have you got any sort of celebrities
that you would love to be cast as one of
your characters.

Speaker 4 (48:56):
I'm really bad at celebrities, I will just say, mainly
because I grew up without with out the TV, so
I have these huge gaps. Everybody, all my friends laughings,
have these huge cultural gaps of like, I don't know
who anyone is. I will say, so one of them
was optioned. I think it was the Babysitter. The third one.
I do think that would make the best film, The
World Girls, I was also speaking to TV people about,

(49:16):
but it's quite a bit cold, as always kind of happens.
None of them have been made yet. I would say
I love Flicity Jones in the theory of everything. I
think she's just a beautiful actress and really brilliant, brilliant actress.

Speaker 3 (49:28):
I do also love Dominiquest.

Speaker 4 (49:31):
So yeah, I suppose those are the two I would
say I can think of, although I don't think they
could be a couple, so it's kind of a big
age gap.

Speaker 3 (49:37):
Maybe I'm not sure now.

Speaker 2 (49:40):
Yeah, you never know.

Speaker 1 (49:42):
Okay, So back to sort of a bit about your industry.
Now and then I'll wrap it up with a little
other random question. What current trends in commercial fiction are
you most excited about and what trends do you think
are on the way.

Speaker 4 (49:56):
So at the moment in publishing, science fiction and fantasy
is enormous. So science fiction fantasy for our Q four,
like the fourth quarter of the year, has overtaken general
fiction as the second biggest category underneath crime and thriller.
It is crime and thriller, then SFF, then general fiction,
which is a sort of book club women's pick. That's
the first time that's happened in quite you know, it's

(50:18):
really sign kind of quite significant. It's up to twenty
percent year on years across the market, which is enormous.
So although SFF isn't like my go to, I'm really
interested by the boom in it and how well reading, particularly.

Speaker 3 (50:33):
Younger readers, are responding to it.

Speaker 4 (50:35):
And I think it's just very interesting to watch that
play out. And it doesn't show any signs of slowing
down after Frankfurt Book Fair, it was still very buoyant.
It's also nice to see romance having more of a moment.
I again am not like the biggest romance reader in
the world. But I think it's great. You know, I
used to read a lot more romance when I was younger,
and I have a lot of time for it, and

(50:56):
I think that it can be easily dismissed because it's
sort of like, oh, that's kind of fluffy easy to write.

Speaker 3 (51:00):
And actually it's not.

Speaker 4 (51:02):
I think it's really hard to write. And that's the
same I could say that about all commercial fiction. People
think it's easy, and it derives me in saying because
I'm like, well, you right, then, it's not easy. It's
you know, it doesn't commasure does not mean badly written.
It's small, PLoP focused and it sells in different retailers.
That's pretty much the definition I suppose. So those two
are booming crime and thriller. Obviously I write crime and

(51:24):
I endure crime. It's not having the most buoyant time
it's ever had, like compared to when I joined the industry.
It is kind of a bit flatter and it's very saturated,
but it is still you know, it's still an enormous
category and it still sells. So there's often you know,
it's often finding those subgenres within crime and thriller, which

(51:44):
you know, which which can be exciting.

Speaker 3 (51:47):
So you know, I don't.

Speaker 4 (51:48):
I wish I had a crystal wall and I could
see exactly what everyone was going to want. But you know,
I also believe in writers for long term. You know,
some some writers they might change genres, or they might
write in a genre that's not very popular.

Speaker 3 (52:00):
I mean, look at we published Killing Hubert.

Speaker 4 (52:02):
I said this, and you know everyone knows he actually
had this huge backlist that nobody was buying and then
is now like one of the biggest sporsors in the world.
So I liked that about self publishing and about TikTok
that it has sort of brought some backlist authors to
life and changed the trajectories of people's careers so hugely.

Speaker 3 (52:21):
That's quite exciting. And I also think it's worth saying
in this question.

Speaker 4 (52:24):
I know a lot of writers who who didn't have
success on their first book but have changed names, written
under pseudonym and then had like life changing novels that
you wouldn't even know as a reader because you don't
know that they've changed names. So people that you think
are sort of a one hit or even night success
or anything like that, like most of the time, they're
not so it's important to put the go after in
and to keep the faith.

Speaker 2 (52:46):
Yeah, that's really interesting.

Speaker 1 (52:47):
And yeah, the the fact that y, yeah, sorry, I
thought it was going mad then yeah, the fact that's
gone up in such a huge percentage is really interesting
to know. And it's things like that. Is that something
that authors can like find out and discover to. In fact,
the question should be is it worth writing to trends

(53:08):
that are on the app?

Speaker 2 (53:09):
Or is it is it? Just do what you need
to do.

Speaker 4 (53:12):
I think it's important that you write what you do
love because you do have to promote it and publish it,
publicize it for like two years when you're in it,
and then offaly forever. So I wouldn't encourage people to
write something they really weren't interested in. That said, if
there is something that's on trend and you think, oh,
I'd quite like to give it a go, nothing wrong
with that. I understand people want to make money. I
understand they want to write books that readers pick up.

(53:34):
So if you've always had an inkland to write romanticy like,
go for it?

Speaker 3 (53:38):
Why not?

Speaker 4 (53:38):
You know to your first point about how you find out,
So we get an updated through Nielsen, which is the
company that tracked book sales. You might hear it referred
to as the TCM on the Total Consumer Market. So
we can look up book sales, and they also give
us presentations about what trends are coming in and out
and which category every book is categorized behind the scenes,

(54:00):
and then we can see which categories are Apple, which
categories are down. You have to pay for that, so
like the publishers pay for it, so that information is
not necessarily publicly available to authors, but you know, they
often think piece is written. You know, we often get
asked by in the media to you know, I often
get called and said, can you comment on this trend?
And then there'll be a quote from me in the

(54:20):
in the newspaper or whatever.

Speaker 3 (54:22):
So you know, you can do a bit of research. Yeah,
you can find out for sure.

Speaker 4 (54:25):
And also you can just look like look what was
selling on Amazon, Look what's in the top one hundred,
Look in your local bookshop, which books are being stopped
in high quantity? Yeah, you can find out in that way.

Speaker 2 (54:36):
Yeah, some good tips there.

Speaker 1 (54:38):
Okay, we're running out of times, so I'll ask one
more question and then we'll find out a bit more
about where people can find you. What's your favorite data
onlind after a long day of writing.

Speaker 3 (54:48):
My favorite way to onmind?

Speaker 4 (54:49):
Yes, oh well.

Speaker 3 (54:55):
What is it I do?

Speaker 4 (54:56):
I do kickboxing, which I enjoy. Sometimes I take frustration
out on the path. What are you thinking about? So
I was like punched super hard, and I was like
thinking about this thing be an annoyed about and and
he was like, okay, channel that tunnel that that's good
for stressfulief. I'm also in a local drama group, so
I am involved in amateur dramatic plays, which I love

(55:18):
because there's nothing to do with publishing, and it's really
good for me to just go somewhere. We just finished
our latest show, you know, go and rehearse and then
perform and just do something that's totally different from the
publishing industry because it can be very all consuming industry
and it comes you like your identity. So it's good
to have hobbies that are separate to that.

Speaker 2 (55:38):
Nice. Yeah, didn't didn't see the kickbox income in there.

Speaker 3 (55:42):
No, no one ever does. Also, I like going to the.

Speaker 2 (55:44):
Pub yes, of course.

Speaker 1 (55:46):
Okay, this is the more big question we asked, so
be with it. You're on your deathbed looking back on
your career. What would success mean to you?

Speaker 4 (55:54):
Oh God, that is morbid. What would success look like
to me? You know what, I just really believe in
the power of books to change the world. So if
one person reads my book and they're in a really
bad place mentally and they just need to escape, and
my books are not self help, you know, they're not
going to change the world in that way. But for me,
books have always been such a resource. So if you're
feeling sad, you're feeling down, something terrible has happened, you know,

(56:16):
escaping into commercial fiction is partly why I love commercial fiction,
and it takes you away from what you're going through
for a few hours.

Speaker 3 (56:21):
Like for me, that will be success.

Speaker 4 (56:22):
And that sounds a bit tripe, but it is true
because I think, you know, it's so important that and
it's really sad to see the rates of literacy falling recently,
and there's a crisis with children's reading, and I think,
you know, if people don't realize they can read.

Speaker 3 (56:35):
These books to help themselves. And it doesn't have to
be physical.

Speaker 4 (56:37):
People have the sexier you know, you can listen to audio,
you can read e books, whatever you want. It's all reading,
so you know, that that for.

Speaker 3 (56:45):
Me is a success. And also what I would also say.

Speaker 4 (56:49):
Is for me being a published writer with something I
wanted and with the Dollhouse, that dream was achieved.

Speaker 3 (56:54):
So if I never sell another.

Speaker 4 (56:56):
Book or nobody ever buys anymore, that deal kind of
fulfills in me that you can never know. No one
can take that away from me. For all writers, is true.
So you know, if you've had one book out, you
should be so proud of yourself.

Speaker 3 (57:09):
Like most of the.

Speaker 4 (57:09):
Books that come across our desks, you know, they don't
get published and it's really sad. But if you have
got that far, you need to be proud of yourself
and that's an achievement. So yeah, I think that true.

Speaker 1 (57:19):
And I've got to squeeze this one in because I
should have asked it. What so give us three authors
that we should look out for from your perspective.

Speaker 4 (57:28):
Oh okay, So I'm publishing the next book by Sarah
Vaughan in the springtime. Sarah is the author of Anatomy
of a Scandal, which was a huge hit a few
years ago was also adapted for TV with Sienna Miller,
and this is her latest one. It's called based on
a true story, and it is about a children's writer
who hosts a lavish seventieth birthday party, only to find

(57:52):
that when all her family come home, there's somebody else
at the party who is threatening to destroy her whole career.
It's amazing. I think Sarah's a genie, a suspense writer,
so look out for that. So that's a plug for
my own list. Aside from that, I always love Liz Nugent.
As I said, that's a recommendation for me from the
crime site.

Speaker 3 (58:12):
Who else story I love.

Speaker 4 (58:14):
I also made this really lovely book the other day
by Safian Manny Coots, who is a friend of mine
and a journalist, and it's called The Year of the
Dog and it's about a breakup that she went through,
which she's public about, and the fact that in the
wake of the breakup, the puppy that they had brought
together kind of became hers and she got through the

(58:34):
year and the breakup with the support of the dog.
And it's written in a diary format, which I always
really loves. Funny, it's very heartfelt, but also you know,
smart and astute about grief and I guess the importance
of a pets sometimes, So that's sort of a different,
different recommendation, but I really loved it and thought it
was great.

Speaker 2 (58:54):
Yeah, amazing, Thank you for that.

Speaker 1 (58:56):
So just to finish off, then where can people find
you on social media? Where can they stalk you? And
where can they buy your books?

Speaker 3 (59:03):
So you can find me on Instagram?

Speaker 4 (59:05):
I'm on Instagram as Phoebe and Morgan A n N
I am on. I am still on x as Phoebe
underscore a Underscore Morgan. I think it's the same on
Blue Sky. My substuck is the honest editor which you
can find. You can be a free subscriber. You can
be a paid subscriber if you want, but you don't
have to be get pretty much the same access as

(59:26):
a free person, which is fine. And then what are
someone on social media? Those are probably the main ways
I don't. Yeah, I have Facebook as Phoebe Morgan author,
so I'm on there too, don't really have TikTok. You
can buy the books wherever you would like. They're in
bookshops and online. They were in the supermarkets when they
were published, but now they drop out as they were

(59:47):
published a little while ago, so yeah, you can. You
can order them online or your local indie orter Stones
and if you buy one then thank you.

Speaker 3 (59:56):
And I hope that you enjoy it.

Speaker 2 (59:57):
Brilliant.

Speaker 1 (59:58):
Well, thank you so much, Phoebe, and again congratulations on
the new role. I'm sure it's going to be an
amazing career for you.

Speaker 2 (01:00:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:00:06):
I loved you sharing your story with us and you've
put some amazing bits of advice and information in there,
so thank you so much.

Speaker 2 (01:00:12):
I hope you enjoyed yourself. But we're up for the hour.

Speaker 3 (01:00:15):
Okay, Well, thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 4 (01:00:17):
It's love you to be here, and thanks everybody for
watching anything.

Speaker 1 (01:00:20):
You're welcome. If you are watching this now, we're listening
back on the podcast. Thank you so much. Please give
the thumbs up, leave some comments, and if you have
any follow up questions, you know what email address and
our socials just send them along and we'd be happy
to answer them. So from us, it's goodbye, have a
great weekend and look after yourselves.

Speaker 2 (01:00:36):
Thank you. Bye,