Just Banging Rocks on Trees

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is Twists. This Week in Science, episode number ten seventeen,
recorded on Wednesday, June fourth, twenty twenty five, Just banging
rocks on trees. Hey everyone, I'm doctor Kiki, and tonight
on the show we will fill your head with water tanks,
tiny violins, and garbage gulls. But first, thanks to our

(00:24):
amazing Patreon sponsors for their generous support of Twists. You
can become a part of the Patreon community at patreon
dot com. Slash This Week in Science disclaimer disclaimer disclaimer.
Don't let your confidence waiver. Although this bump in the
road looks like a monstrous cane toad, this moment can

(00:45):
be ours should we meet it. And if you despair,
remember we're always here at This Week in Science. Coming
up next, God, the kind of mind. I can't get enough.

Speaker 2 (01:02):
I want to learn everything.

Speaker 3 (01:04):
I want to fill it all up with new discoveries.

Speaker 4 (01:07):
It happened every day of a week.

Speaker 3 (01:09):
There's only one place to go to find the knowledge.

Speaker 4 (01:12):
Issich, I want to.

Speaker 1 (01:14):
Know what's happened.

Speaker 4 (01:18):
Happened this week in sciences?

Speaker 2 (01:26):
It's happened this.

Speaker 3 (01:27):
Week in science.

Speaker 2 (01:31):
Bood Science to you, Kiki, and a good science to
you too.

Speaker 1 (01:37):
Blair and everyone out there, Welcome to another episode of
This Week in Science. We're so glad that we could
be here to talk about science with you. It's one
of our favorite things to do. I mean, I don't know,
I'm talking for myself, Blair. Do you like it? I mean,
it's it's day for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:57):
I mean I choose to keep coming back for the
last thirteen years, so just a bit, I must enjoy it.

Speaker 1 (02:07):
Yeah, we do enjoy it. And we're so glad that
any of you who have been coming back over and
over again still enjoy the show, and that I do
hope that new people come to the show and decide
they want to come back and back and back and back,
just because it's a really good time. On tonight's show,
I have stories about a light limit, a tiny violin,

(02:31):
a garbage gull making violin, and something about mouth tape
will get you should say no to it.

Speaker 2 (02:40):
That sounds correct? Is this is this me playing the
smallest violin? Kiki?

Speaker 1 (02:47):
It could be. I mean it's very tiny violin. Okay,
I'm excited to hear about that. It's very exciting. Blair.
What is in the animal? Oh my goodness.

Speaker 2 (02:59):
I have some amphibians wet as they usually should be. Yes,
I have late breaking trash parent news I was looking
at a moment ago.

Speaker 1 (03:10):
I have.

Speaker 2 (03:13):
Orderly baboons and flighty climate change. Oh and also Keiki
and I are going to talk about chimps a little bit.

Speaker 1 (03:22):
I like chimps. Yeah, Leah likes chimps. Yes, yes, so
we're going to talk about it. Yes, lots and lots
of stuff. Yes, I'm so excited. I hope everyone here
is excited for all these stories and more, and that
you are subscribed to the Twist podcast everywhere you can
find us. We are pretty much on most all of

(03:45):
the podcast directories that are out there, and we are
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(04:06):
find out when that is. But you know, the podcasting,
that's great. If you want to find out more like
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that are there, follow links to subscribe to the show.
It's all sorts of fun stuff. That's where you get
the pot, the Patreon community, our Zazzle store, all that

(04:26):
kind of stuff. It's really great. Are you ready for
the science, Blair?

Speaker 2 (04:30):
I'm ready bring it to me.

Speaker 1 (04:33):
I will, I will serve it up on a platter
of disenchantment. Okay, there's been a lot of news this
last week coming out about what really is going to
happen to the future of American science. We have the
big beautiful bill that passed the House and is sitting

(04:53):
in the Senate right now and being debated, and it
currently is set to massively reduce science funding across the
institutions within our government. So National Institute of Health, National
Science Foundation, NASA, NOAH, CDC, you name it. These organizations

(05:16):
are being gutted. And for like a general sense that
it has been calculated by people and yeah, this is
a post on blue sky, but that the numbers would
take us backwards twenty five years.

Speaker 2 (05:31):
That seems low. Honestly, I think that. I mean, so, yes,
there's the initial take back, but then I feel like
there's the lag in progression that means we're going to
go back twenty five years. So we're going to be
in the year two thousand and then we won't progress
for the next four years, so we will stay twenty
five years, so then we'll be thirty years behind.

Speaker 1 (05:53):
Like I think that's that's the two pieces.

Speaker 2 (05:55):
Right, there's like the rollback and then there's the lag
of return.

Speaker 1 (06:00):
And I think it's not so this twenty five year
rollback of R and D is not the same as
the educational pipeline, the talent pipeline, the funding that is
being cut to grant programs, training programs, efforts to bring
more people into sciences to actually benefit American scientific research

(06:22):
and development. So yeah, you're right the timeline, although these
cuts will pretty much take us back twenty five years,
we're also going to have the leg because of the
talent pool and bringing it development back up, manufacturing our
ability to actually compete and to get collaboration with international

(06:45):
scientists to collaborate on oditional projects like the International Space Station,
which this week it was reported that NASA, because of
budget cuts, has pulled out of the annual International Space
Station Research and Developments and additionally another conference that's an
international conference for Astronomy and Space Science that they fund.

(07:12):
And so these two conferences that are international conferences where NASA.
It's an opportunity to for NASA to go, look, world,
look what we're doing. Maybe you should launch stuff. We
have contracts with us to do stuff. They're not doing that,
and so where's it going to go? Who is going
to pick up the slack? How is this? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (07:33):
I thought space was one of the things that like
this administration was all into because of Elon.

Speaker 1 (07:39):
But yeah, and so this is very interesting another bit
of NASA information. One of Elon's cronies, Isaacman, the the
business man who funded one of the recent the recent
SpaceX launch that did the high altitude EVAC maneuver to

(08:01):
test new astronaut suits. He was in line to be
the head of NASA, but Trump and Elon got in
a fight and so that didn't happen, and everybody was
kind of okay with Isaac min because he's really and everything.
I don't know, No, I don't know exactly what I

(08:21):
said that, but I don't know exactly went into that decision.
So there are going to be other people being considered
for heading up NASA. We've got a lot of issues
with NSF. NSF its budget is going to be potentially
reduced by fifty seven percent, so from a little over

(08:45):
nine billion to three point nine billion, and all of
it is pretty much from getting rid of STEM training opportunities.
So scholarships are reduced as sixty five percent cut, post
doctoral fellowships, a ninety one point four percent cut, NSF
Research Traineeship program completely eliminated, Broadening participation initiatives cut one

(09:12):
point six billion to one hundred and seventy one million,
and other programs zero being cut, our Advancing Informal STEM Learnings,
CISE education and workforce research experiences for undergraduates. And we're
going to see though a program remain that's the Tribal

(09:33):
Colleges and Universities Program HBCU Excellence in Research some other parts,
but massive budget cuts. So the tco UP, which aims
to increase the number of Native Americans in STEM careersill
received seven point one million compared to sixteen point five million. Additionally,

(09:54):
NIH is going to be severely cut. Indirect costs at
universities capped at fifteen percent, which is going to limit
the ability of universities to support research initiatives and labs
with equipment that could support collaborative opportunities. So there's a
lot going on here that is going to significantly and

(10:18):
severely reduce American potential for our future, for our scientific advancement.
And yesterday Marshall McNutt, the President of the National Academy
of Sciences, made her second annual State of the Science presentation.

(10:39):
She said, oh, look, huh. I didn't think I'd have
to do another one of these, but I guess I do.
She basically said, Hey, everybody, there's a lot going on,
but what we need to do is not a road
America's trust in science anymore. We need to work on

(11:00):
building trust, building communication, and push our ability to remain
a world leader in scientific innovation. She says that we
need to build a culture of innovation, so budget cuts
are not going to help that. We need a national
research strategy involving basic and applied research so that there's

(11:21):
data informed analysis that leads research efforts to maximize impact,
so strategically planned impact, saying that countries like China, Germany, Japan,
and Norway do this kind of strategic planning with a
political non governmental organizations with consistent funding as opposed to

(11:43):
funding that is from year to year and congressionally allowed.

Speaker 2 (11:48):
Yeah, political government organizations, what are those we don't have
those anymore.

Speaker 1 (11:54):
Well, supposedly, the National Categorist Sciences is supposed to be
one of those where the National Academy of Sciences is
external to the government. They do get governmental funding for
their research and reports that they do, but they have
to get external funding to maintain. But they are a

(12:15):
congressionally mandated organization of scientific leaders, of academics that are
supposed to advise Congress, that are supposed to advise the government.
That's the National Academies. Everyone, that's what it's supposed to
be doing. Yeah, she said we need more international collaboration,
so hey, don got those indirect costs we also need

(12:37):
She said this that red tape regulations need to be reduced.
So there's a lot of reporting. There's regulations involved in
nih NSF grants and a lot of these governmental fund
governmentally funded research programs that impact the ability of researchers
to actually do research, so that researchers are spending a

(12:58):
lot more time doing paperwork and making sure that formatting
is correct as opposed to actually doing work that would
be valuable. And it's true, but I think along with this,
as a science communicator, I would say that the government
should be prioritizing science communication funding so that there is

(13:23):
NSF NIH funding for budgets for universities for researchers to
hire professional science communicators to do communication work for them
when needed, so that that's taken care of, and it's
another bit of stuff that is off the researcher's plate.

Speaker 5 (13:39):
That's what I think.

Speaker 2 (13:40):
I think it's so strange. It's I mean, obviously it's
being heavily normalized all these strange things that are happening
all around us. But I just think it's so strange
that funding is being severely cut to things that no
one in the history of American politics would ever ever
consider cutting funding too, because you're physically doing harm. You

(14:05):
shouldn't physically be doing what feels like intentional harm to
other humans via legislation, and that shouldn't be allowed to happen.
And the idea that you're like, no, no more cancer research,
it's fine, Like, do you under that's so cool? That's
a crazy thing to say, we're spending too much money
on cancer research.

Speaker 1 (14:26):
Cancer research gets to stay. I think that's one of
the ones that gets to keep its funding. But there
are like three main areas that get to keep their funding.
It's like cancer research, nanotechnology, I don't know, there's.

Speaker 2 (14:41):
Okay, well anyway, but yes, disease in general, right, like
even if you want to put all the others, take
all the other science out the window, but like disease
based research, things that will say directly save lives, cutting
funding to those is wild.

Speaker 1 (15:00):
But you know we're also cutting funding that involves you know,
invasive species, invertebrates.

Speaker 2 (15:06):
How about climate change? All of the climate change research,
all of the climate change communications funding. NOCCHI lost a
huge NSF grant, like it just iah.

Speaker 1 (15:22):
Yeah, it's it's a big c change, and you know,
I think it's very interesting, and I will caveat the
National Academy of Sciences report or presentation with the information
that the National Academy of Sciences has been in the
red for the last two years by significant millions of

(15:46):
dollars and is probably going to have to cut some
two hundred and fifty people very soon and cut programs
of their own because of the changes in funding. And
you know, congression or administrative wants priorities. So it's a

(16:09):
very it's an interesting time to be doing science and
be a science communicator and wondering where this all is going.
And on that note, what I will say is that
this is in everyone's power to have a voice on
the big beautiful bill is not yet passed, and you

(16:31):
can call or contact your representatives, your senators. Five calls
dot Org is one great place to go. There are
places you can go. You can make your voice heard
and have a voice. You know, it may influence and
very often the senators they're just waiting to hear from

(16:52):
the people that elected them. And if there's a big
enough clamor, it might just change things. Because I think
there's enough happen right now that if people, if people spoke,
if people said things, then that it needs.

Speaker 2 (17:07):
To be more though than it's ever been before, because
for some reason, every day three times politicians are not
listening in the same way that they have historically. There's
different pressures, there's different things happening that are making Congress
make weird decisions, and so there is an opportunity to

(17:29):
sway them, but it's you have to try harder, like harder,
and there there are scripts, and like you said, you
can you can go to five Calls, they'll give you
a script. You can go to other places where they'll
give you a script. You don't even have to like
come up with what you're going to say.

Speaker 1 (17:43):
You write a letter to the editor, in your letter
to the utter, in your local paper, try and talk
to people. This is not about oh, progressive, lefty politics,
even though we're talking about politics. What it's about is
maintaining the research, development and economic future of this country.

(18:06):
If you destroy the knowledge creation engines, universities, labs, if
you destroy those, your ability to compete, to create, and
to advance goes away.

Speaker 2 (18:25):
I think a lot of these initiatives too, that are
that are being that are on the chopping block or
started by Republican president administrations.

Speaker 1 (18:35):
Right.

Speaker 2 (18:36):
So that's the other thing is like a lot of
things are being thrownal It's not a right left situation.
It's like a sense and decency and no sense and
no decency. It's just it's insane that Reagan himself would
not have made these since it's it's wild no, And this.

Speaker 1 (18:56):
Is what's fascinating. This is also the seventy fifth anniversary
of Van ofvar Bush's UH creation of the N I
H N I S N s F and the his
Endless Frontiers UH philosophy. So he Van ofvar Bush, the
first Bush he created. He came out of this big thing,
the Endless Frontiers, and we're gonna be a scientific powerhouse.

(19:22):
And he he created, you know, with a lot of
other people, created the beginnings of what has gotten us
to where we are now. And it's it's fascinating to
see that being erased in a moment. Yes, changes need
to be made. Yes, there's a lot of institutional issues,
but what's happening right now, what we're gonna it's gonna

(19:44):
take us so long to come back from this. You guys,
come on, call people, write letters. Let's do it. Not
just blue sky. Blue Sky's now where you want to
be Facebook, that's now where you you need to write letters,
talk to people, call people. Yeah, Nixon gave us the
epa thank you, joint specialist. Yes exactly, we got to

(20:06):
do it. I mean, that is the thing that I
think the reduction in civics education in our schools has
left us with is a disenfranchised public. People do not
think they have a voice anymore. They don't understand how
they can impact things. So Civics, you're a part of this.

(20:28):
You are part of our body politic, right, We're part
of it. So let's do something. Okay, Okay, now that
was it. That's all I want to say for that
right now, because we can do this and we don't
need to get all upset about it. I mean, or
if you need to get upset to do something, then
get upset. But like, seriously, come on, buddy, write your senators,

(20:49):
come on, call your senators, Blair. Let's talk about like
actual science. We're gonna move on now everyone. What do
you want to talk about?

Speaker 2 (20:57):
Is actual science? All right? Anyway, let's talk about some
news and frogs and toads and salamanders. Okay, So they
those are amphibians. Amphibian means double life or something like that.

Speaker 1 (21:12):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (21:13):
I haven't worked at a zoo in a while, but ultimately, no,
their name has to do with the fact that they
live on land and in water. They need to stay wet.
They do not have water tight skin. A snake or
a lizard. Reptiles have water tight skin, so they can
live in the desert. A newt cannot live in the desert.
So all that to say, they need to stay wet,

(21:35):
and so, especially in climate change in periods of drought,
Amphibians are impacted heavily. Also, because they breathe through their skin,
they're considered indicator species for pollution because they are impacted
very heavily by any contaminants in the water. All that
to say, amphibians are something to look at when you
are studying how an environment is doing, how an ecosystem is,

(21:59):
how how healthy it is. Right, and so in Portugal
they found that amphibians were spending a lot of time
in historical irrigation channels.

Speaker 1 (22:14):
Ooh, I would too, Yes.

Speaker 2 (22:17):
So this is hundreds of years old stone water tanks
and irrigation pathways that were used by traditional villages and
now they are critical breeding and refuge sites for amphibians
because the natural wetlands are under a lot of pressure
from climate change, from use and from contamination and so yes,

(22:45):
so they were doing kind of a general amphibian population
survey and they were able to look across one hundred
and sixty two bodies of water, which included natural sites
like ponds and streams, but also included are official structures
like tanks, fountains, and irrigation channels, all made of stone.
They looked at a species richness, abundance, presence, and breeding

(23:08):
activity and what they found was that while natural streams
and ponds supported a greater number of species, the artificial
water bodies had an unexpectedly vital and complementary role to
the natural bodies of water. So, specifically, the stone tanks
had extremely important breeding potential for amphibians. A lot of

(23:32):
them were breeding in these tanks, and they even supported
a higher diversity of species compared to natural habitatites in
the tanks. Specifically, the marbled newt and the Bosca's newt
were breeding in these historical structures more frequently than in
nearby ponds and streams. That being said, they didn't replace

(23:55):
the ponds and streams. There were some animals like the
Iberian frog and the fire salamander which only were found
in natural water bodies. They weren't scooching over to the
historical sites. But this is a case where the historical
site has to be included in the assessment of the

(24:16):
space and is important ecological territory. And so what this
reminded me of actually is when a shipwreck becomes a
coral reef.

Speaker 1 (24:25):
Yes, okay, yeah, so.

Speaker 2 (24:28):
That is a man made structure. Yes, yeah, it's an
artificial structure that feels like it shouldn't be there. It
has disrupted the natural space, but over decades or centuries
has become a habitat space. And so however, the historical
communities diverted water into these areas that has maintained and

(24:53):
they have been able to use this as fresh water
for actual amphibian habitats. And so it's important to know
this when you're doing ecological studies in general studying species health.
But it also is important to know that you have
to protect those man made structures alongside natural habitats because

(25:16):
the natural structures. Not only are the man made habitats
now in their own way natural structures, but the habitat itself.
The ecosystem is different than it looked hundreds of years ago.
So due to human impacts on the space and climate
change and drought and pollution and all these other things,

(25:39):
some of these species might have disappeared or moved, but
they did not because these man made structures exist, and
so that is essential to the assessment of the space
and the species.

Speaker 1 (25:51):
Now I want to know why, like why why do
some of these man made spaces become protective species? Why
are they great? And then not for others? Like the salamander,
and they're like, Nope, I'm going to be in the
natural habitat. That's it. That's the only place I can be.
Yet others are like, whatever, it's good.

Speaker 2 (26:10):
So I could wager some guesses, right, just based on
what I know about amphibians. For example, some of them
might require more depth in their water to breed, and
the natural habitat might not be able to provide that
depth because of erosion or drought. Right, So then that's
why they might prefer the historical manude structure. The animals

(26:34):
that are not venturing towards that might not be able
to go as far, and so they might not over However,
many generations have been able to make the adjustment because
also a lot of animals aren't staying in those spaces.
They're laying their eggs and leaving.

Speaker 1 (26:51):
Yeah, what is this? Is it the tiger salamander. It's
one of them where the salamanders they're born in one
little vernal pool and then they roll through the undergrowth
of the forest basically just they just they search for
another verna pool and so, yes, they're on a journey, right.

Speaker 2 (27:10):
Yeah, yeah, And so some of that could just have
to do with the radius. How far away are these
historical structures from the pools that they're born in.

Speaker 1 (27:19):
How many streets do they have to cross? This is
like not frogger salamander.

Speaker 2 (27:25):
Right, Is it a new that really needs to stay
pretty wet or is it a salamander that can walk
for a couple of days in moist soil and they're
wet enough.

Speaker 1 (27:34):
It all depends on that kind of thing too, for sure.

Speaker 2 (27:36):
Also, what do they eat? Yeah, is their food over
there in the historical spaces or is it not?

Speaker 1 (27:42):
Okay, this is something I was thinking of, so these
historical spaces though here in the United States, I'm looking
at some of these little pools of water. They look
like they would grow mosquitos really well, And like in
a lot of communities here in the US, it would
be like, oh, get rid of it, we don't want
the mosquitos, right.

Speaker 2 (28:04):
If there's enough the frogs and salamanders, right, yeah, absolutely,
And if there's enough amphibians, maybe it's not that bad
the mosquito problem. Maybe laying eggs in a pool that's
gonna have mosquitos in it means your babies are gonna
have plenty to eat. The second they hatch.

Speaker 1 (28:21):
Okay, so now what I want to do is take
a whole bunch of amphibians to Canada.

Speaker 2 (28:26):
Yes, absolutely, take amphibians everywhere except for cane toats. Don't
take cane toats.

Speaker 1 (28:34):
No, I'm not gonna know. We're not going to do
any kind of movement of biological species.

Speaker 2 (28:40):
No, just breed the natives and release a lot of
extra native frogs. That's not going to hurt anybody.

Speaker 1 (28:48):
But it's an interesting balance, right, It's like, we don't know,
and especially in all of these spaces where this study
is learning about this thing and is saying we have
traditionally ignored these spaces as habitat because it's urban, right,
so we need to learn more about this. But this
is also at the time where climate change is occurring.

(29:09):
A lot of these spaces are getting hotter more of
the year. There's also, you know, so across Europe you
have changes to these areas where the summers are longer
and hotter. They also have changes in mosquito movement. But
how is everything moving, Who's keeping up with whom? And

(29:30):
are they I don't know. I think this is a
really interesting beginning. I don't know, It's fun to come
in and get a snapshot every once in a while.

Speaker 2 (29:42):
Yeah, And I mean once again, talking to the people
who live in the space where you're studying native species
is really important because I don't know this for a fact,
but I would bet that people who live in this
area in Portugal know that these historic pools are full
of news, right.

Speaker 1 (30:03):
So, or at least all the kids do.

Speaker 2 (30:06):
Yeah, Oh, absolutely, And so you would you would expect
that that they would be aware of that. I don't
know if researchers would know to check there, right, And
so I think that's that's the other piece of this
is making sure that you're speaking with native populations who
know the history and also what's the bigger picture of

(30:29):
what's going on. They're not going to show up with
their PVC squares and and just kind of do their
their survey and then go back home. They're living in
that space, and so they have a more intimate knowledge
of what's going on.

Speaker 1 (30:45):
Yeah. I mean, I hope that all research is incorporating
communities these days. People powered science, come on, everyone speaking
of powering science. Artificial intelligence is doing so much much
these days. And this is actually a cool story. This
isn't the chatbot kind of stuff. This is algorithms models

(31:08):
based on neural networks. Researchers at tu VN and the
University of Glasgow and the University of Reno, Blue Glandoble
American accent. They have been trying to figure out how
can they make the best microscopes, how can you make

(31:31):
a microscope as accurate as possible, And similar to how
telescopes have to deal with diffraction and issues with the
light that's arriving at the detector in that telescope, microscopes
are the same way, but instead of you know, it's
it's enhancing, right, You're you're measuring something that is very

(31:54):
very small with microscopes, but often you're looking at cells
in a tissue. That tissue is maybe opaque, maybe you
need to differentiate different organelles from background stuff, and you're
going to be dealing with the limit of optical measurement technology,

(32:17):
the limits of optical of optical systems to be able
to actually detect light, and so researchers publish. These researchers
publishing in Nature Photonics this week have published their work
where they basically came up with a way for people

(32:40):
who have these microscopes, which now they call deep learning microscopes.
Deep learning microscopes are algorithm algorithmically based and you can
teach them things, so you give them a lot of information.
Look at this picture, this picture, this picture, this picture,
and because of the algorithm involved, it's abled to in

(33:01):
the case of neural networks, it's able to make correlations
and connections that are not just straightforward. So the researchers here,
what they've done is they took a microscope and they
took a laser beam and they shot it through a
liquid to hit a mirror, so that that light then

(33:23):
would bounce back go through the liquid, which is where
the microscope was like looking, and then the light from
that liquid would then emerge, be refracted and would get
to the microscope. Now the microscope is just getting images.
The algorithm, the neural network is what is being trained,

(33:44):
image by image by image. And so they slowly increased
what's called the turbidity, which is the opacity, the random
chaotic mix of stuff in the liquid, so that as
that laser reflection bounced back through the liquid, it would

(34:06):
be refracted in different ways, and it's a chaotic progression.
And so this algorithm is learning how it sees things
at a certain distance through a certain material, and it
was looking to see Basically, the researchers like, we're going
to tell the microscope to try and figure out where

(34:30):
that reflected light is coming from on the mirror behind
that liquid. But because that turgid fluid became thicker and
thicker and more chaotic, it got harder and harder and harder,
because it's like having an opaque filter in front of
a light and that light gets dispersed. When we look
at it, it's like, oh, it's a fuzzy light. We

(34:51):
can't actually say there's a laser being reflected from back there.
It's a pinpoint of light, a point source. We can't
say that. But a micro with an AI algorithm. I'm sorry,
I keep going to whatever the modern media is doing,
because I read it all the time. This neural network

(35:12):
algorithm trained over and over and over to learn how
it sees and to understand I mean, I'm using anthrop
anthromorphic terms, but to understand the limits of its detection
of light. Now they can take this microscope with this
algorithm and go, okay, we're going to put it in
front this one microscope that we taught to see through stuff.

(35:35):
This way, We're going to have it look at a
slide that's got you know, it's this thick, it has
this tissue in it. We're going to tell it to
look at this distance at this thing, and we're going
to train it to do that. But now this algorithm
knows its optical limitations. And so in the study, what
they really showed is that they were able to almost

(35:57):
reach what is considered the theory medical limit of optical
detection and measurement. And so this because it's almost almost
the best any opt out because of the algorithm, because
of the learning, the detection can potentially make other microscopic

(36:21):
systems all over the place way more accurate. So it's
kind of an interesting thing. So we might get better
optical detection, which could help us ce cells better, help
researchers understand how how things move in fluids or in tissues,

(36:43):
be able to do all sorts of measurement and detection.
It's kind of fun interesting, Do you really think so?
I'm not.

Speaker 2 (36:57):
I'm just I'm having trouble understanding why the fluid. I
just still don't understand that. Why the fluid? Oh why
did they have that because that's like, that's how an
eye works.

Speaker 1 (37:10):
Or so when so if you imagine, like imagine that
there is you're looking at an aquarium, right and there's
maybe a fish in that aquarium that you want to see,
but the aquarium is dirty and there's a bunch of
particulate matter in the water, and we cannot see that

(37:30):
fish necessarily or detect the colors that may be imaged.
But the light bouncing off of that fish and making
its way out through that turbid water because of the
way that light bounces and refracts off of different different solution,

(37:53):
different material or different elements in solution, different molecules in solution,
action gradient, the refraction, the refractive index of the fluid
that the detector, the microscope, the neural network that's trained
could know how light moves through that fluid and actually

(38:18):
kind of control for all that noise, so they'd be
able to see the fish. It would be able to
potentially see the fish. Yeah, I mean, I'm making this
kind of a more macro.

Speaker 2 (38:28):
Thing, and I appreciate that. Yes, yes, I understand, it's
like it'sy it's not fish sized, I understand, but.

Speaker 1 (38:36):
It could be Okay, all parts of thing. So it's
using The idea is that by having like if you
watch an aquarium get dirtier and dirtier and dirtier, if
you were to have a neural network observe that aquarium
get dirtier and dirtier and dirty, dirtier, but have had
a control and then also all the samples of looking

(38:59):
at light bouncing through that fluid as it got dirtier
and dirtier and dirtier. That neural network could then model
how light moves in that fluid and refracts within it,
and how and understand what it sees better than our brain.

Speaker 2 (39:17):
Okay, and so give me one more.

Speaker 1 (39:21):
Why why do we need this?

Speaker 2 (39:25):
What is this for? Is this just to test the
limits of sight?

Speaker 1 (39:29):
No, so this actually will help us do all sorts
of tissue sampling better and fast.

Speaker 2 (39:36):
That's what you're saying. Okay, I get it.

Speaker 1 (39:38):
So instead of having I mean we might we'll have
to have people do control observations and measurements for a
very long time. But right now, it's like you can
have an algorithmic microscope basically say I see this mitochondria
in this tissue over here, and we're going to do
and if you have a tissue that you sliced a

(39:59):
whole bunch of times whatever, that algorithm could then actually
give you information that is specific to that one particular mitochondria.
And it doesn't have to be a graduate student who
followed that mitochondria through that particular sample. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (40:16):
Oh my gosh. So it is interesting. I'm just like,
it's it's it was. It was very theoretical still to me.
So that's I get it now.

Speaker 1 (40:26):
And I mean, thanks for asking the question, because you know,
in my head, I was like, I think I understand it,
you know, and then you know what it's for. Tricorders Absolutely,
Misia Burrow is saying, I wonder if they could use
that yellow dye that they make Cheetos from that makes
you see through your skin. I actually asked my husband

(40:47):
that is this exact question earlier. I was like, why
do we need an algorithm when we have yellow dynamber five?
Come on? Yeah, oh my god. But anyway, Yeah, and
this is not one of those I think scary things.
I think this is actually improving our ability to detect

(41:10):
and measure and so by making things more accurate, and
I think I think, I think it's really fun and
could have the potential to give us lots of information
and save lives.

Speaker 2 (41:24):
Less AI for ads and scams, more AI for healthcare.

Speaker 1 (41:28):
Please AI to help science do science the science. That's
what I want. I want algorithms to help do the work.

Speaker 2 (41:41):
I want algorithms to find cancer a year before we would.
That's what I want.

Speaker 1 (41:49):
Yeah, there was some news out this last week. I
think are recently that detection or detection algorithms that where
doctors or people would go, oh, there's cancer in that,
or you know, trying to take like people are still
slightly better than the algorithms or the time, but algorithms

(42:09):
are also starting to become very very good. But I
don't know who else is becoming good with lots of practice. Blair.

Speaker 2 (42:20):
Oh, parrots is that we're talking about, So some of
you keen eared listeners will remember the trash parrots. This
is in Western Sydney and Australia. There are cockatoos who

(42:42):
have figured out how to open trash bins to scavenge
the sulfur crusted cockatoos, and they're so good at it
that they keep outwitting the humans who are trying to
lock up the cans, creating what the scientists describe as
an innovation arms and that's what I reported on I

(43:02):
don't know, probably two years.

Speaker 1 (43:03):
Ago, Yeah, I think so. But something interesting has happened since.

Speaker 2 (43:15):
Researchers have stumbled across cockatoos using the water fountains.

Speaker 1 (43:23):
And why not everyone needs water.

Speaker 2 (43:26):
These weren't like motion sensor water fountains. They weren't a
simple push. No, it was the spring loaded twist handle
that I remember from like elementary school that has the
little knobs on it.

Speaker 1 (43:42):
You have to try. No, they are not easy to use, and.

Speaker 2 (43:49):
This particular group of cockatoos are using both feet as
we see in the video that he's playing, to manipulate
the twist handle handle. Then they kind of use their
body weight, which is a lot because they're a bird
they weigh like a pound to turn the handle clockwise,
keep it from springing back, and then drink water. Around
fifty percent of the time this is successful, So it's

(44:11):
not guaranteed successful, and it's not easy, as Kihi was saying,
it's not an easy thing to do.

Speaker 1 (44:17):
They have to work for it.

Speaker 2 (44:18):
Yes, what's crazy is a lot of them are using
it as their primary source of water, and that they
will queue up to use it.

Speaker 1 (44:33):
They will wait in line. This is what we're seeing
in this video right now.

Speaker 2 (44:37):
They're waiting their turn, which is a whole nother thing
that they don't even talk about in this article that
like they're waiting. They're not fighting.

Speaker 1 (44:45):
They're not fighting. It's like, okay, I'll wait, it's my
turn next.

Speaker 2 (44:50):
They're waiting in line to use the water fountain, which
is more complicated than free standing water. So like.

Speaker 1 (44:58):
It's gotta be fun.

Speaker 2 (44:59):
It to be fun. That is the only thing that
I can imagine here is that it is enjoyable for
them to manipulate this water fountain.

Speaker 1 (45:07):
I wonder though. I mean, it's enjoyable, but it's also
we I don't know, they're social. This is a water source.
This is Australia. In this place area is probably very dry,
especially in the summer. I'd love to understand whether the
queuing the lining up is normal in the summertime or

(45:30):
it's more in the winter when water is more available elsewhere.

Speaker 2 (45:35):
So this hasn't been a full research paper or anything.
This is very anecdotal, but it looks like they do
it regardless of if there's other water available or not.
So there are other theories that maybe the water tastes
better because it's filtered.

Speaker 1 (45:56):
Oh, come on, yeah, it's filtered. There's no it's people water.
Oh my gosh.

Speaker 2 (46:03):
Yeah, so and and parents are not pretty good taste.
They have a pretty good sense of taste. So I
believe that for sure. But I also think the way
that parents are, I think it might be fun. They're smart,
like it's making them use their brain. It's a puzzle.

(46:23):
Their parents like to solve puzzles for fun.

Speaker 1 (46:29):
So I don't know.

Speaker 2 (46:31):
I kind of think it's like, oh, I can get
my water this way, and I get to like, do
this fun toy to get my water.

Speaker 1 (46:38):
Okay, But at the same time we see parents fight
over toys and also that scums a wrestling match. It
becomes a whole thing. Yeah. So I think that the
discipline to sit and watch and wait their turn, I
think is fascinating. I think it's important something some of

(47:02):
the researchers need to be thinking about. Why would birds wait?
Why did birds create their own que like?

Speaker 2 (47:10):
Yeah, truly wild.

Speaker 1 (47:14):
I thought that was a people created thing for like
elementary schools and the DMV and I don't know, you
want a tiny violin Blair.

Speaker 2 (47:25):
Of course I do.

Speaker 1 (47:27):
If you could play the world's tinest, smallest violin, who
would you play it for? Myself?

Speaker 2 (47:36):
Obviously?

Speaker 1 (47:36):
Isn't that the point of the small violin? I'm so
sad you are so so I play this violin for you.
It's tiny, you can't see it. Yes, anyway. Researchers at
Loughborough University have just published their work in creating the

(47:59):
world's smallest violin with nanotechnology nanolithography. So technically they didn't
like build a tiny violin, but they did create a
lithograph using nanotechnology to create a little tiny violin that

(48:22):
is so much smaller than a human hair. Thirteen microns wide,
thirty five microns tall. This, what they believe is the
world's smallest violin, is small enough to within the width
of a human hair.

Speaker 2 (48:39):
Jokes on them, I made one that was half the
size of a human hair, and I didn't tell anybody.

Speaker 1 (48:45):
I never just because I played it and it was gone.
It's made of platinum, and human hair is typically seventeen
to one hundred and eighty microns in diameter, target grades
between fifty and twelve hundred microns, so this is much
smaller than a Tartar Grade and this was a test project.

(49:09):
So what they wanted to do create this nanolithography system
that would allow research projects to develop next generation computing
devices and identify new materials and methods that would support that.
So the researchers say, though creating the world's smallest violin
may seem like fun in games, a lot of what

(49:29):
we learned in the process has actually laned the groundwork
for the research we're now undertaking. They're doing experiments probing
materials using light, magnetism and electricity and seeing what happens
and so at the nanoscale. Once they understand how these
different materials behave they can they can figure out whether

(49:50):
or not they can utilize them for computing efficiency, energy storage, harvesting,
et cetera. But anyway, why viol in? Mm hmm.

Speaker 2 (50:03):
For the title, Yeah, pretty much.

Speaker 1 (50:05):
They they figured, I mean, if we're gonna do something,
we're gonna make it really small and o ha ha
haa tiny violin. The entire laboratory the nano fraser. It's
a nano sculpting machine. It uses thermal scanning probe lithography.

(50:30):
So basically it's like a little teeny tiny uh not
a not a laser etcher, but it there's like a
needle like that writes the patterns, little nanoscale needle tip
that etches patterns in a nano in the nanoscale.

Speaker 2 (50:54):
Mm hmmm. So also, to be clear, this is not
a tiny violin. It is a tiny image of a violin.

Speaker 1 (51:05):
It is it was a needle etched image of a
violin that is so smaller than a human hair.

Speaker 2 (51:10):
Because I, of course I didn't expect you to play,
and I didn't expect you to be three dimensional. I
understand all those things, but I thought it was it
was like cut out in the shape of a violent
It was. It was the shape, its size, it's etched.
So it's basically there's there's this teeny tiny tape that's
like what twenty microns wide or something like that, and

(51:31):
so there is an image etched on this tiny tape.

Speaker 1 (51:34):
Yeah, but it's you know, it's like a computer chip,
but there's no chip stuff on it. It's a little
teeny tiny violin. So uh, little layer of platinum got
deposited on the chip and then h that is that
etched cavity was filled with the platinum and whoa, and

(51:56):
behold you have a platinum tiny VI.

Speaker 2 (52:00):
And even better.

Speaker 1 (52:02):
Yes, yes it is. Apparently it took about three hours
to create this violin once they figured out how to
get it to work. Hmmm, you can't see it without
a microscope. And here's a picture. And I know that

(52:22):
people in the audio podcast will not be able to
hear this, but there is an image of how the
tiny violin appears next to a human hair. Hm, that's cool,
little tiny etching of a violin tinier?

Speaker 5 (52:43):
Is that?

Speaker 2 (52:43):
Is that blonde hair or brunette hair, because they're pretty different.

Speaker 1 (52:48):
Well, I don't think it's curly, fair straight.

Speaker 2 (52:53):
I just remember in you know, high school or college
or whenever, taking one of my hairs and taking my
blonde friend's hair and putting them next to each other
under the microscope, and it's pretty like you were saying,
it's it's a difference of thickness almost ten times in
thickness or something like that. It's crazy.

Speaker 1 (53:10):
Yeah, no, not tenent. What was what did you say
to one hundred and eighty? I think was the U.

Speaker 2 (53:17):
Three?

Speaker 1 (53:17):
And some times it depends though, like some people have
thick hair, some people have thin hair, yeah, and curly hair.
The brunette like, ah, there's all sorts of things in there.
The science of hair is fascinating. But anyway, this was
about a tiny violin that doesn't play for you or anyone,

(53:39):
but it's just a picture. Everyone. Thank you for joining
us for this week in science. We have finished our
first bout of stories and I just want to say
that I really appreciate you being here. And if you
love Twists, please make sure you get friends to subscribe.
Make sure you are subscribed wherever it is that you
need to get your podcast or your video stream. We

(54:01):
love to have you as a subscriber. If you can
head over to twist dot org click on our Patreon link,
you can become a member of our supporting community. Any
amount is great, honestly, any amount you can give helps
us keep going. And ten dollars or more a month,
I will say your name, sometimes mispronouncingly or stutteringly at

(54:22):
the end of the show and I cannot wait to
read yours. Please add it to the list, Come on,
do it. There's also a zazzlelink at twist dot org
and that is where you can buy cool Twist merchandise,
so you can have a T shirt or a hat
or a mug or tote bag, or a towel or
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(54:44):
things over there. It's amazing. Blair's done some amazing work
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Click on the sasle link. Help support Twists because we
really can't do this without you. Thank you for your support.
All right, it is time right now to come back
to that time in the show. What time is it? Oh? Yeah,

(55:08):
it's time for Blair's Animal Corner.

Speaker 2 (55:14):
She loves hot creatures. Five pigs, fill a ped don't
want to hear about animals except more giant pat.

Speaker 1 (55:35):
What you got, Blair?

Speaker 2 (55:39):
I have baboons? Did you know that baboons often travel
in structured line formations known as progressions as they move
through their home range.

Speaker 1 (55:53):
I did not tell me this.

Speaker 2 (55:55):
They are organized. There seems to be a rhyme and
a reason to their order. And there have been lots
of different studies trying to explain what the order means
and how they come up with the order and why
there's an order, and they're all different, conflicting explanations. Some

(56:17):
propose that the order's random. Some propose that they position
themselves with vulnerable individuals in the middle, but there's really
not been any conclusive proof for anything. The one with
the vulnerable individuals in the middle especially is strange because

(56:39):
that's really an herbivore, like a hoved animal thing like
that's something an elephant might do or an antelope. It's
not really something you'd see a primate do very often. So,
using GPS tracking, researchers from Swansea University re examined the
behavior in a group of wild Chacoma baboons on South

(57:02):
Africa's Cape Peninsula. What they found was that their movement
patterns were driven by social bonds rather than survival strategies.
And at first mentioned you're like, okay, sure that makes sense.
They're primates, but it's not really something that we see

(57:24):
in the animal kingdom in animal movement in this particular way,
where there appears to be a very clear order to
how the baboons go. There's consistency, but that ultimately it's
just go find your friend and walk with them. So

(57:45):
they tested for four different potential organization methods. One protecting
the vulnerable. So I mentioned that before two competing for
resources that would be the most dominant in the front
so they could get to the resources fastest. Three following
the leaders for group decision making reasons the dominant or

(58:07):
is in the front to kind of call the shots
for the group. Or four patterns emerging from social relationships,
and that's the one that turned out to be the
correct one. They actually call that social spandrel hypothesis. I'll
explain what that means in a second.

Speaker 1 (58:24):
I love a good spandrel, so you know what a
spandrel is.

Speaker 2 (58:27):
I'd never heard this word before, so I learned about
it through this day, which is really interesting. So they
found that baboons movement were driven completely by social relationships.
The consistent order really was just where is my friend?
And that they all kind of drifted into similar spaces

(58:47):
at the same time. The first thing I thought of
was the kids who sit at the back of the
class to be with their friends.

Speaker 1 (58:55):
I'm a us back. I'll just drift back here. I
don't need yeah.

Speaker 2 (58:58):
And then there were people like me, sits at the front,
and I would sit at the front with my friends,
and all of us front sitters would sit together, and anyway,
I host a science podcast. Is that really surprising to
anyone that sat in the front of the classroom.

Speaker 1 (59:17):
Anyway in the have you a question?

Speaker 2 (59:21):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 (59:22):
Yeah, that's true today too.

Speaker 2 (59:24):
When I go into large meetings in the office, I
always sit in the front anyway. In the baboon group
that was studied, the more socially connected, high ranking individuals
walked actually in the middle of the group, while lower
ranking baboons were in the front or at the year,
at the rear. And that is because they knew where

(59:48):
they were going, they didn't need a leader.

Speaker 1 (59:51):
But they also weren't worried.

Speaker 2 (59:52):
About vulnerable individuals in the middle, like they were just
kind of going. Everybody knew where they were going. They
just sat where they wanted to sit or thing. And
so this introduces this concept of a social spandrel. So, Kiki,
what's a spandrel?

Speaker 1 (01:00:08):
A spandrel is an evolutionarily very interesting and confusing kind
of thing.

Speaker 2 (01:00:17):
Yes, so you're correct. This is what I learned. Is
the word is actually an architectural term.

Speaker 1 (01:00:25):
Yes, it's like it's a flare.

Speaker 2 (01:00:29):
Yes, it is the triangular space that emerges as a
byproduct of arches placed side by side. So it's the
flare in between two arches that doesn't have any function.

Speaker 1 (01:00:43):
But it does because if that weren't there, then the arches,
or if it weren't the flair that it was, the
arches would fall down right.

Speaker 2 (01:00:51):
But it's there because the arch is there. And so
the arch has been designed and erected in a particular way,
and as a result, there is a negative space that
looks a particular way. And so in biology, a spandrel
is a trait that arises because it is a side
effect of something else that was selected for. And so

(01:01:13):
in this case, travel patterns among baboons emerge naturally from
social affiliations and are not a strategy.

Speaker 1 (01:01:22):
So they so okay, So babboons terrify me. I think
they're beautiful, as they should. Yes, they're terrifying. And so
to find out about this, Oh, they line up like
the cockatoos for the water fountain when they go for
a walk. There's a little bit like spiders, you know, cooperating,
the kind of you know, are they like, is this

(01:01:44):
a strategy? What are they doing? How are they why
are they doing it like this? I was very concerned
for a minute. So I'm glad it's a spandrel.

Speaker 2 (01:01:51):
Yeah, they're just hanging out with their buddies, which, of course,
there is an evolutionary impact to that. There is improved reproductives, access,
and survival rates amongst baboons with strong social bonds, So
reinforcing those social bonds is an evolutionary advantage. So just
hanging out with your friends on the long walk is

(01:02:13):
an advantage. But the order is a complete byproduct. So
there you go.

Speaker 1 (01:02:20):
Cool. So it could be anybody in a certain order
depending on where your friends where, you all kind of
end up in them.

Speaker 2 (01:02:27):
So spandrel social spandrel Anyway.

Speaker 1 (01:02:31):
I think a lot of people here just learned about
social spandrels. Let's yeah, that's the word of the day everyone,
social spandrels. Yes.

Speaker 2 (01:02:41):
And moving from social spandrels yes, to climate change. I
have a study about birds and climate change, so we
talk a lot about how plants and animals cannot escape
climate change. But usually the one animal that could is
birds because they can fly. Their entire thing is flying

(01:03:05):
south for the winter, escaping the temperatures they don't like, right,
And so there's a narrative that it's like trees can't
migrate turtles can't migrate, slugs can't migrate, birds can migrate.

Speaker 1 (01:03:23):
A new Yale study actually looked at the escape.

Speaker 2 (01:03:27):
Abilities of birds from a warming world, and unfortunately the
news is not good. Research tells us they cannot move
fast enough or far enough to keep up with climate change.
That's essentially the whole story.

Speaker 1 (01:03:46):
But I'll give you a little bit of data. Yeah,
like trees, we've been talking for a long time about
climate change and how it's impact. It's moving faster than
species are able to. And this has been a big
question about birds, plant species, the insects, species that they
feed on, that they nest in that you know, is

(01:04:06):
it the ecosystems that are impacting the speed of the
birds or is it good questioned birds limiting themselves.

Speaker 2 (01:04:14):
Right, So we don't know. Also does it matter, because I.

Speaker 1 (01:04:21):
Mean, in the end it doesn't, but it's the kind
of thing where if we could influence it in some.

Speaker 2 (01:04:26):
Way, right, No, And for that reason, it does move
system Like the question is can the birds fly farther
than they're flying? But they're not because their niche is
not following them. So if they flew to a place
they've never been before, there's no familiar food, there's no
familiar habitat, there's no there's unfamiliar predators. You're out of

(01:04:51):
luck anyway, right. So that's a really important point, is
even if birds could escape climate change, would they ultimately
perish anyway because they're being thrust into a completely unfamiliar space, right,
So really it's how fast can the trees move? And

(01:05:12):
that can often be a limiting factor. So the data
is supporting that that either they're choosing not to go
as far or they physically cannot move as far. They
study the movements of four hundred and six species of
North American birds. This is this data was collected by
citizen observers over two decades and corresponding local temperature changes

(01:05:38):
during the summer. Bird species on average relocated between forty
and fifty miles north during the period covering the data,
and sometimes they relocated to higher elevations as well, which,
as I used to teach in my Zoomobile program about
climate change, when you use elevation as an escape from
climate change, there's an inherent problem and that you have

(01:06:00):
less space to move than if you were moving latitudinally. Yes,
so you can go north and north and north until
you hit the north pole, but if you're on a mountain,
you can only go so far up and you're.

Speaker 1 (01:06:17):
Still many reasons. Yeah yeah, so.

Speaker 2 (01:06:22):
AnyWho, A lot of these bird species relocated. On average
of the northbound movement helped birds avoid a temperature increase
of about one point two to eight degrees celsius. That's
a lot, but that was only about half of the
temperature increase they would have experienced if they stayed. So
that means, on average, they still experienced a one point

(01:06:45):
three five degrees celsius increase in temperature during the summer
months compared with the temperatures in their original home range.
So they still had a one point three to five
degree increase even with their movement, so they didn't outpace
climate change. Climate change is still caught up with them.
Even though they were adjusting their territory. During the winter months,

(01:07:08):
birds had only minimal success in limiting exposure to warming.
They experienced only an eleven percent less warming than had
they not moved at all, so winter, by and large
was unsuccessful for them to relocate. In the winter, birds
experience on average three point seven degrees celsius increase in
temperatures over the twenty years. That's huge. So overall, more

(01:07:36):
than seventy five percent of birds managed to reach slightly
cooler climates. But some species, like the cactus wren, which
is from deserts and arid systems in North America, didn't
move at all, so they were susceptible to climate triggered
changes in the terminal niches.

Speaker 1 (01:07:52):
So like.

Speaker 2 (01:07:54):
A desert bird didn't move.

Speaker 1 (01:07:58):
It's hot and the desert is already very extreme, right,
but if you if you see like the videos that
out of Death Valley in the summer, still bad.

Speaker 2 (01:08:08):
Though, Like even if you're used to the desert, it's
bad now.

Speaker 1 (01:08:14):
Cactus run are so wonderful and the mm hmm no,
there's canyon ren. Cactus rn are different, but the canyon ren,
but well, all runs are actually really cute. I think ivens.
They're just the cutest little they're like the mice of
the bird world.

Speaker 2 (01:08:31):
Yes, oh man, that's that's really good. Yeah. So, by
and large, the bird species capable of flying long distances
were the best at limiting their exposure to warm climates.
So that follows the hypothesis that capability, like physical capability
of movement, does factor in, because the ones that naturally

(01:08:53):
fly farthest were the best at relocating. Okay, makes sense.
But species that were less mobile they didn't go as far,
and so you know, they really had to. They had
similar movements to reptiles and mammals in the area. Actually

(01:09:17):
they did. They weren't that different even though they had wings.

Speaker 1 (01:09:22):
Some there's a lot of research in the bird like nomadism,
like migration or birds that just stay home. And what
they have found is that any bird can just stay
in one place, right, you can be that. But the
birds that are more likely to migrate are actually more

(01:09:44):
usually generalists, and they have larger habits and they have
those larger flight abilities. They have figured out how to
adapt to changing food availability and they instead of staying
in the same place and like a mountain chickadee maybe
or black hetchy storing nuts for the winter, they're like,

(01:10:07):
I got to get out of here, and they fly away.
And so the specialists are the ones that are in
trouble because they're the ones that kind of stay in
one place because they're specialized, and that is like they
don't fly as far. They're usually in that one little
place and that's like even though they have wings, they
are so specialized to their niche.

Speaker 2 (01:10:28):
The creatures of habit Yes, yeah, they're.

Speaker 1 (01:10:31):
Not going to go anywhere. And they're the ones, you know,
like like people who are.

Speaker 5 (01:10:35):
Like, you'll have to prime me out of my home,
you know, the ones that ignore the flood warning and
then end up on the roof. Yeah, yes, so yeah,
the researchers draw kind of a larger conclusion that this
is very concerning.

Speaker 2 (01:10:53):
Because even these animals that have the physical capability to
move out of these climate impacted areas are not able
to move as much as we would expect. And so
of course that means that less mobile species are obviously
at a large impact as well. And so this hour are.

Speaker 1 (01:11:13):
They going to They can fly a little bit, but
when are they going to be like I got to
get my energy and then fly a little bit further
and get my energy and fly a little bit further.
They still have to do that adaptation, They have to
do that population level change, which is not going to
happen fast enough.

Speaker 2 (01:11:29):
And if you're a lizard or a mouse or a tree,
you're really in trouble.

Speaker 1 (01:11:35):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:11:37):
So just it does the picture of climate change and
the movement of species that birds are not this kind
of like get out of true get get out of
tree free is what I was going to say. That's incorrect.
They don't have a free ticket to get out of
the climate change impact zone.

Speaker 1 (01:11:57):
Basically, I wish I will complicated some species did? Some
of them do, but not definitely, not all of them.
It's going to impact.

Speaker 2 (01:12:06):
Diversity, but you know, might as well cut all climate
change research funding. Who cares?

Speaker 1 (01:12:12):
Yeah, right now, it's time, let's do it.

Speaker 2 (01:12:17):
Yeah, sure, Kiki, you had wanted to talk about chimps
last week. Do you want to introduce this last story?

Speaker 1 (01:12:25):
No, it's your animal corners.

Speaker 2 (01:12:26):
Oh okay, all right, I'll do it.

Speaker 1 (01:12:27):
It's fine, Yes, it's yours this week. I was like,
I hope Blair brings it next week. Oh my gosh. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:12:33):
Perfect. Hey, chimps play the drums on trees. We knew
that are Yeah, No, we talked about again. I don't
remember how long ago.

Speaker 1 (01:12:44):
This was, but we we.

Speaker 2 (01:12:48):
Did talk on the show about how chimps kind of
drum with their hands on tree bases, and the research
concluded that it was actually a long distance communication method,
which is insane in and of itself.

Speaker 1 (01:13:04):
It just boggles my mind.

Speaker 2 (01:13:05):
Yeah, but this new study, it's a five year study.
They looked at video footage at five distinct locations where
there were chimp communities, and they found that they were
striking trees with rocks. It was adult male chimpanzees. They

(01:13:31):
were repeatedly hitting the tree trunks with rocks and there
would end up being these piles of stones at the
base of trees. They were like throwing these rocks at
the bases of the trees, and they called the stone
assisted drumming. Now what's interesting is the previous behavior that
they documented where they were hitting it with their hands.

(01:13:55):
They were very quiet before and after, but for this
one they got loud and like rocous, and they like
hyped themselves up before they threw the stones. And so
their theory is that this is meant to carry further.
So this is their way of kind of taking making

(01:14:17):
a long distance phone call.

Speaker 1 (01:14:19):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:14:19):
Maybe they're just psyching themselves up before they throw the
rocks so they can throw it really hard, kind of like.

Speaker 1 (01:14:24):
Yeah, I mean i'm gonna do it, I'm gonna do it.
I'm gonna do it, yeah yeah, and then you go
for it. But they didn't. They they found that there
were like certain patterns they were doing and things that
they it's not just throwing rocks at trees. That this
is a.

Speaker 2 (01:14:41):
Form the form of communication.

Speaker 1 (01:14:43):
Yeah, and that to me is the wildest part of this,
that these chimpanzees not just are you know, maybe close
up drumming a little beat, but using these trees. Yep,

(01:15:10):
there was that.

Speaker 2 (01:15:13):
Terrifying throw a rock, kick the tree.

Speaker 1 (01:15:19):
But you can hear that base in the trunk of
these massive trees. And you know, these root systems penetrate
the earth and there's probably some aspect to this that
other chimps are very interested in.

Speaker 2 (01:15:39):
I think it's interesting that these trees can take this.
Being also there are some trees that I've seen, particularly
in North America, that could not handle this.

Speaker 1 (01:15:54):
But I'm sure that this is not all trees, right.
This is a tree can take it, and the tree
is the video that goes along with this story has
a definite wound.

Speaker 2 (01:16:05):
Yes, it is a big old wound, but.

Speaker 1 (01:16:08):
It's a massive tree, so you know that too. It
could be like a marker, you know, a territorial display.
Like there's so much that could go into this, but yeah,
that sounds yes, And if a chimpanzee is attacking a tree.
You don't want to be anywhere near it.

Speaker 2 (01:16:29):
No, no, you don't want to be your near chimps
in general, but there they are calling this a cultural
transmission because young chimps adopt the behavior from older group members,
and particularly when there is something deemed as communication that
transmits from generation to generation, that is considered social learning,

(01:16:52):
that is considered culture when you're talking about animal behavior.
And so this is a pretty complicated and a pretty
a pretty specific thing that they are. They are communicating
down through generations of how to communicate with each other

(01:17:12):
long distance. So it's yeah, chimp culture via rocks at trees,
the learning.

Speaker 1 (01:17:26):
Book.

Speaker 2 (01:17:31):
What could you possibly be trying to say?

Speaker 1 (01:17:36):
I don't like the ketch up here?

Speaker 2 (01:17:44):
But when are you coming home later distance.

Speaker 1 (01:17:48):
Where you have?

Speaker 2 (01:17:48):
Yeah, exactly, I'll come up later.

Speaker 1 (01:17:51):
Hey I saw another chimpanzee over here. Oh there's a
squirrel or you know what. This is the thing. There
are so many bits of information being shared that we
do not understand yet, and I think it's fantastic.

Speaker 2 (01:18:10):
Yeah, that's what I.

Speaker 5 (01:18:11):
Want to know.

Speaker 2 (01:18:11):
What is what are they communicating via these roots?

Speaker 1 (01:18:16):
I mean, if it's important enough for the young chimpanzees
to pick it up and transmit it themselves from generation
to generation. Then this is something that is important socially.
Might be a spandrel, but it is. Yeah, it's socially important.

(01:18:38):
So that's yeah. I think that's that's fascinating. And what
I'd like to know is like, do how does it
differ between different little tribes of chimpanzees. Do different tribes
talk to each other this way? Or is it just
within group? Like what's going on there? I think there's
some interesting questions to be raised. I don't know. Chimp

(01:19:03):
rock mm hmm, it is there could be. There would
be that ad from like the nineties eighties, Hey, what
what was that?

Speaker 2 (01:19:15):
It was like whatever?

Speaker 1 (01:19:15):
What is that? It's whatever rock? Whatever? It was like
the you'd order all the cassettes.

Speaker 2 (01:19:23):
Oh sure, sure you're talking about.

Speaker 1 (01:19:27):
Somebody in the chat room knows what I'm saying.

Speaker 2 (01:19:29):
Oh my goodness, Yes, it's the it's that you pay
a penny and you get like one hundred CDs. Yes,
I know what you're talking about.

Speaker 1 (01:19:35):
Y it's rock. I don't remember what that was, but yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:19:42):
Nope, no Columbia House, Columbia House.

Speaker 1 (01:19:45):
No, but it was there was an advertisement that was
specifically like the advertisement was like this whole it's blah
blah rock like. It was a your I don't know,
someone will tell me later podcast people people watching later,
m please help me with this old social reference. It

(01:20:07):
was something rock. It was I don't know, No, it's
not the label, everybody. It was like this. It was
an in an advertisement, and it was the line in
the advertisement that was said by somebody who sounded like
cheech marine or something like that. Anyway, whatever, help me out, everybody.

(01:20:33):
This is gonna be I'll figure it out. I'm going
to move into my section of stories with an animal story. Birds,
no mar chimpanzees, and Blair. Honestly, this is my favorite
animal story from the last week. Researchers just published in

(01:20:56):
bio one, which is an open online the first GPS
observation of a western gull Laris occidentalis riding in a
long haul garbage transfer truck. So, okay, long haul garbage

(01:21:19):
transfer truck, what's the big deal. They had a tracking
device on this Western goal in San Francisco. They had
a bunch of them on these goals Western goals in
San Francisco, and so these GPS tracked. Goals have been

(01:21:41):
tracked during the breeding season at southeast Pharallon Islands off
the US West Coast. Lots of great white sharks out
there from twenty thirteen to present, and they do foraging
trips from the Pharallons to land, and they tend to
be longer than at sea trips. And so where do
the goals go. Very often they'll go get human food,

(01:22:03):
they'll get people, they'll get food from people. And so
this one instance they tracked a little lady Western goal
who got in the back or whatever, rode a long
haul garbage transfer truck, an eighteen wheeler garbage truck from

(01:22:24):
a waste transfer station in San Francisco, California, which is
probably just that garbage like right near Candlestick Park in
South San Francisco. This goal rode this garbage truck to
the Central Valley, California, to an outdoor compost facility, and

(01:22:46):
then she spent a day there and flew back to
the Farallon Islands, went back to the garbage truck rode
it again. So May twenty first and May twenty third,
this female Western goal got on an eighteen wheeler garbage
truck to a central valley compost station to go eat,

(01:23:10):
so she didn't. She flew from the Parolon islands to
the garbage got on a truck. The truck drove her
to a massive food source. She did what she needed
to do there, flew back to her babies at the
breeding grounds in the Pharolons, and then went back again.
She's like, oh, yeah, that was great. I didn't have
to fly. That was awesome. And so these foraging trips

(01:23:32):
were longer than average, so by about fourteen to eighteen
hours longer, and she went ninety five to one hundred
and thirty kilometers farther from the colony than most birds do.
And this is further than this individual's other trips during
the week long tracking period. And they haven't really noticed

(01:23:53):
this in a lot of goals, but they say it's
not been widely observed, which leads me to believe this
might be something that other birds are picking up and
so I hope to hear about it. And so they
don't understand the bird's intentions. And honestly, I think energy
is a big deal, Like, oh, how did she find

(01:24:14):
out that if she rode the truck she'd end up
in a compost facility, and then she would be able
to fly home and she would have half the journey
more of the food. I mean, this is efficiency optimization
at its finest. This is amazing. So the next time
you see a Western gull in a human garbage dumpster

(01:24:36):
or on a beach or wherever, you know, just give
them a nod and say, yeah, I know you're smart.
This bird figured something out. It's really amazing. Yeah, So
the question is will others learn it? And we don't
actually know that. So I find this one of the

(01:24:58):
most interesting stories of the week because it's a bird,
and everybody thinks that goals are just kind of like
the pigeons of California. But goals are amazing species of birds.
There are diverse and widespread and very often not necessarily coastal,

(01:25:20):
and so goals are generalists in terms of species that
are able to adapt and find new food sources and
create new behaviors like this one. Yeah. They have long
developmental periods, so most a lot of goal species will

(01:25:42):
not actually be mature until their fourth or fifth year,
and so they'll be with their parents for several years
before they're actually off on their own as breeding adults.
So goals are actually very interesting. And so when you
say seagull, it's not just a it's a gull, right, Okay,

(01:26:02):
So now I'm giving you burder geek advice. So we're
going to move on from the first time anyone has
seen a gull writing a truck to a compost station. Two.
A question that I find actually very interesting, which is
what is it in the brain, in the nervous system

(01:26:27):
that creates what is called the mile in sheath and
what impairs it from being repaired in situations like multiple sclerosis.
And so research out this last week published in Neurology, Neuroimmunology,
and neuro Inflammation. It's a study that's called pro inflammatory

(01:26:53):
Molecules implicated in multiple multiple sclerosis divert the development of
humandendrocyte lineage cells. So the interesting thing about this study
is we know that in multiple sclerosis, the milin sheath,
which is around the axon or the transmission part of

(01:27:14):
neurons within the nervous system that becomes damaged by the
immune system. The autoimmune system gets dysregulated and something happens,
and that's going on oligodendrocytes. They are a type of
glial cell, which is not a nervous it's not a neuron,
but they're one of the support cells. Oligosc goligodendrocytes are

(01:27:37):
one type, and there are astrocytes oligodendrocytes. You know, there
are a number of different glial cells and they have
different functions. This particular one it wraps the axon becomes myelin,
which is supposedly important for conductance and all this stuff. Anyway,
it gets damaged and then there's scar tissue and they

(01:28:00):
don't get fixed. But why not? What could fix it?
And this study is fascinating because they were able to
determine that the inflammation that occurs, this dysregulation to the
autoimmune system leads to an environment in which if you

(01:28:23):
put new oligodendrocytes, little baby oligangodendrocytes that could repair the
mielin become new myelin cells. They're supposed to grow into oligdondrocytes,
those glial cells in the inflammatory environment that is multiple sclerosis,
they turn into astrocytes instead. So there are signals involved

(01:28:48):
that actually stop the glial cells that would become myelin
from doing that, and they go off and they become
these other kinds of supportive cells. And so what the
study suggests is that if we could actually figure out
what that signature is, the cell signaling molecules are, that

(01:29:16):
we might be able to downregulate whatever it is, control
it and stop this differentiation into astrocytes and maybe turn
the cells into myelin actually, which would be really amazing.

(01:29:36):
So there's a basis a potential for being able to
repair myelin that is natural and that it's part of
what the body's doing, but it has to do with
reducing the impact of inflammation on these particular cells. The
other aspect of the study that I think is really
interesting is just the pathways that get shifted. So you

(01:29:59):
switch pull a lever, you go down a different track, right,
you get switched from one track to another, and that
this is the kind of thing that inflammation can impact
and control. So that if you have a stressful environment,
if you have autoimmune disorder, whatever it is, where an

(01:30:19):
inflammatory environment is the norm, then different cellular decisions are
being made than ones that would be more supportive for
long term survival. So I think this is a really
interesting study. I think it has implications for a lot
of things beyond just only get undercites, astrocytes and myelin,

(01:30:44):
but for sure they specifically may be able to go
down this path to support therapy for multiple sclerosis, which
I think is absolutely fascinating. Blair has run off somewhere
for a moment, and I have one last story so

(01:31:06):
that we can finish off the show, and I was
hoping that she would come back so that I could
tell her not to tape her mouth at night. What
am I talking about? Apparently there is a huge trend
on TikTok where people in videos are taping their mouths

(01:31:29):
shut at night to keep from getting wrinkles or to
help themselves with with jawnline definition, energy levels, sleep apnea,
oral hygiene. Anyway, it is a viral phenomenon where people

(01:31:56):
are taping their mouths that night because influencers on on
little video platforms are saying it's good for you, with
absolutely no support. So you know what, people have studied it.
Apparently there's a bunch of a few studies, right and

(01:32:17):
so yay. This week, scientists from London Health Scientists Center
and the University of Saskatchewan College of Medicine just published
a study where they reviewed a bunch of those studies
and oh, guess what, they're not very good studies. Great
the data. They looked at ten of the most relevant

(01:32:38):
research papers two hundred and thirteen patients in total to
even look at what was going on with this hyped
I don't know, self improvement therapy. Anyway, The studies were
looking at how the mouth taping might influence things that

(01:32:58):
people wanted to be treating sleeped apnia, nasal obstruction, mouth breathing,
jaw definition, et cetera. And in them, of course, these
people were monitored in controlled laboratory environments. In two papers
they did actually see a mild mild improvement in patients

(01:33:19):
with mild mild sleep apnea. And so this was basically
how many times did they kind of stop breathing during sleep?
How when was blood oxygen saturation dropping during sleep? But
it was not really significant, So there was a little
bit there, and really the researchers write in their paper,

(01:33:44):
which is the thing that I think is the most important.
Studies showed that mouth taping offered no differences and even
discussed potential risks, including asphyxiation in the presence of nasal obstruction.
And again I quote there are potential serious detrimental health
outcomes to those with nasal obstruction who seek oral taping

(01:34:08):
as a means to ameliorate their mouth breathing, obstructive sleep apnea,
or sleep disordered breathing during sleep. And really, you're sleeping, everybody,
Come on, you're sleeping. And here you are, here, you
are sleeping, and then you tape your mouth and the

(01:34:32):
only thing you can breathe with is your nose. And
if you have allergies, if you have any please don't
do this, Okay, don't do it. Just it. This is
not the way to do it, all right, Just I'm
just saying it right now. The conclusion from the abstract

(01:34:52):
of this paper, the social media trend of mouth taping
for individuals with mouth breathing, sleep disordered breathing, or sleep
apnia has been reviewed. Based on the data presented by
these ten different studies, it seems that there's this potentially
serious risk of harm for individuals indiscriminately practicing this trend.
Further studies are required to elucidate any clinical benefit this

(01:35:16):
practice may have. So, uh, everyone, I'm just gonna I'm
just gonna ask you to not just these aren't like
cinnamon challenges or whatever. It's like, Oh, you're gonna help

(01:35:37):
this is gonna help you. TikTok is not a place
to do research, Okay, Like, uh, I'm really really concerned
for people in the world today. I really am. Oh influencers,
thank you very very much for a need for researchers

(01:36:01):
to actually discover whether or not taping your mouth shut
while you sleep is advisable. Blair, are you gonna come
back for a second for the end of the show.
Are you done? Oh, it's the end of the show.

(01:36:21):
I think I've done it. I think I have done
all the stories, and Blair doesn't have any more stories,
so I don't know. I'm guessing there's a child. Oh,
Blair cannot I didn't know there was a heart out.
I'm guessing it was a child. So on that note,

(01:36:42):
thank you for answering the question. Blair. Thank you for
being here tonight, and everyone, thank you for joining us
for another wonderful episode of this Week in Science talking
about all the science that we declared fit for discussion
for this week. Really appreciate you being here. I've got
to give some shout outs to everybody tonight. Shout outs too,

(01:37:09):
everyone in the chat room right now, wherever you are.
Thank you for being here, for chatting and being a
part of this conversation. It's always so fun to be
able to see your comments and your questions and be
able to incorporate them because this is a whole conversation.
We are a community. Fada, thank you for your help
with social media and show notes, especially last week at
the last minute cancelation. Gord Ur and Laura, thank you

(01:37:31):
for manning these chat rooms helping to keep them great
places for everyone to hang out. Identity four, thank you
for recording the show. Rachel, thank you for editing the show.
And I would like to thank our amazing Patreon sponsors
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(01:37:53):
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(01:38:57):
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(01:39:21):
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(01:39:42):
sign up for our newsletter there. I keep thinking about it.
There might be one. I just sign up. It'll be great.
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(01:40:03):
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to that central California compost facility. Good grief, never find it.

(01:40:24):
We look forward to discussing science with you again next week,
and if you have learned anything on the show tonight,
remember it's all in your head.

Speaker 4 (01:40:41):
This week in Science, This week in Science, This week
in Science, This week in Science, it's the end of
the world. So I'm setting up shop. Got my banner refurled,
it says the scientist is in. I want to sell
my advice, show them how to stop and robots with

(01:41:03):
a simple device, I'll reverse all the warming with a
wave of my hand.

Speaker 1 (01:41:09):
And oh it'll cost you is a couple of grass.

Speaker 4 (01:41:14):
Because this week's science is coming your way.

Speaker 3 (01:41:17):
So everybody listens to what I say. I use the
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Speaker 2 (01:41:26):
Opinion all over the.

Speaker 5 (01:41:30):
Well.

Speaker 4 (01:41:30):
It's this week in science, This week in science. This
week in.

Speaker 3 (01:41:35):
Science, eScience Science Science. This week is science, This weekend Science,
This week in science, This week in science, This week
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