Is it time to panic? Taking stock and evaluating the early season results

TTO takes a listener question about evaluating their team and discusses the advice in the latest emails from Scoresheet about when it is time to start making drastic changes to your team. Is it time to panic? Tune in to find out how to take stock of your team in the early part of the season, and listen to us chat about the best things we saw this week and how we can connect food and musical theater.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Howdy and welcome to the Three TroutcomesBaseball podcast, presented by Baseball Prospectives.
I'm your host, Ian left Quoitzand joining me as always from suburb,
Michigan. It is Ben Murphy.Ben. How are you doing? I'm
doing well? How are you doing? I'm doing wonderfully, delighted to be
here, which is the same placeas always, which is in your ears?

(00:21):
Dear listener, that too? Yeah? Right? Doesn't that seem terrifying
that you are literally in like somebody'searhole right now? I'm not gonna think
about it. Yeah, just ponderthat. Oh my god. Um also
pondering that from our nation's capital.It's Jared wise Darted. How are you
doing a little weirded out right now? That's the way I like it.

(00:45):
Um, Happy Paystock Happy? Someonehas asked me, do you say happy
Paysock? I don't know what theright Burgridge there? Great question? Is
it a happy holiday? It feelsmixed? Yeah, it was are though
I can think about it. Yeah, that's true, it's true. I
am. I didn't celebrate any holidaysthis past weekend, but a lot of

(01:10):
people wish me Happy Easter, andit really bothers me that people assume that
I'd be celebrating Easter, and Iwanted to respond with something like, uh,
you know, happy Passover, whateverthe like ecalent was, and I
realized, like I didn't know whatthat was. And then that's just like
me being even worse than that,because it's just like a disingenuous double down

(01:32):
on the religious assumptions. But umknow, like obviously throwing it in their
face that they made a mistaken assumptionabout me. Um, probably it's much
better to have an actual civilized adultconversation, but like, it's probably not
good to assume that everybody celebrates Easterand blah blah blah. But the main

(01:55):
reason I didn't was because I didn'tknow what the right thing to say was.
So this is like of us doLike I know, I know,
fasts need to be meaningful and notevery holiday is happy. Most holidays aren't,
I guess, well most, sorry, I should say most most of

(02:15):
the Jewish high holidays right are likenot about rejoicing necessarily, They're about like
reflection and things. They're all mixed, I think, Um, I you
know, again, like I amnot a religious studies major either, but
I've always kind of based how happya Jewish holiday is based on the amount

(02:38):
and type of food that you getto eat. So if it's a good
holiday, you eat a ton andit's really delicious. Shoot right, yeah,
like awesome, We'll fry everything andjust like stuffing on it. Yeah,
because if it's good, that meansyou eat more. Terrible day you
don't eat. Does that mean Christmasis one of the best Jewish holidays?

(03:01):
Yes, there's a really sacrilegious responseto that, but at least listener to
draw those in. I've gotten thishorribly off track. I apologize, Yeah
I don't. I don't know whatthe track was, but um, yeah,

(03:22):
there's pivot to baseball. So weare delighted to have those of you
left. Right. That might havebeen the fastest we've ever lost listeners in
the beginning of the podcast new recordevery week half our listeners one of them

(03:42):
just turned it off. But allright, we are happy to be back
for another week. Um and asalways, I'd love to start our show
with some emails, So let's let'sturn over to the mailback captain, See
what's what's on deck? Oh that'sactually a baseball pun. Sorry, sorry,

(04:03):
everyone, I don't respond to those. Yeah, we got an email.
It's very exciting. Thanks Jacob forwriting back. In Jacob is asking
about his team in Public League,an L three forty, which I can't
think of a good nemonic for that. It's three of four to zero.

(04:23):
I don't know. Look it up. He's a team eleven and wants to
know if he should start selling now. This was he wrote in before the
supplemental or could he make some goodmoves in the supplements and be a competitive
team this year? So I'll turnit over to you guys who have a

(04:45):
similar But I think the interesting thingabout this question from Jacob is that I
know for if you guys would agreefor me personally, I don't know that
a supplemental could is likely to swinga team too much like I wouldn't.
It's hard for me to imagine twomy teams that are going to be completely
revamped by a supplemental picks. ButJacob's team, this one in particular,

(05:06):
is light on depth, So tome, it's a more reasonable question.
Say hey, this is an easyway for me to pick up depth.
Depth is the one thing I'm missing? Is that going to be enough to
swing the tide? Turn the tide, and do you want to go first
or do you want me to gofirst. I think you should go first,
because you actually respond to you.I did actually responded. My response

(05:31):
was like two sentences, and Ibasically said, I think the team lacks
enough depth that even if everything breaksright and you could add some depth through
the supplementals, you're not gonna becompetitive enough this year to make it worth
trying to make that push, andit's better to pull the plug on this
year and focus on strengthening the core, or trading this year supplementals for picks

(05:56):
and next year spring draft or somethinglike that. Yeah. So I think
one of the things that's interesting hereis that between when Jacob wrote it and
I think where the team is now, the writing is on the wall here,
you know. I think sometimes youcan, let's say, start the
season like ten and six, oreven like eight and eight, or and

(06:19):
kind of say, okay, Ican dream my team to a championship,
but this team is now, Ibelieve six and sixteen. So the question
kind of answered itself between then andnow. But he does have a strong
core, especially in pitching. AndI think what's interesting if we take this

(06:39):
over to the the Rob McCune MemorialTaking Players Report, which is a fascinating
tool, again, a Baseball Perspectusfantasy tool for all subscribers. Again highly
recommended on AD. Just the thingthat's true. Um, you can see

(07:05):
that in terms of like his topfive keepers he has, he's in the
top half of the league, whichI think is probably accurate. You know,
he has Aaron Nolan, he hasLouis Castillo and some stars coming up,
so Corey Seeger, Victor Robless Playerand Anthony Randon. So you have

(07:28):
players who are projected to oh JPJ T room, you know. So
you have players who are really goingto deliver power this year, an impact.
But the more and more you goout, you just see the lack
of depth get exposed. So youknow, by thirteen thirteen keepers still third

(07:49):
actually in the league, but thenyou go to eighteen and it drops to
second to last. So like rightafter the keeper line, the tails off
completely, and that's actually an awesomeplace to be in. I think that's
the way you want to set upyour non contenders in a continuing league is

(08:13):
to just think, like, howdo I get the best core of thirteen
players that I can for now andfor the future. One of the things
that's interesting to me is that inaddition to this core of players who are
providing present value, you do havea number of minor leaguers and a large
number of minor leaguers. What Iwould probably recommend is letting go a little

(08:43):
bit of some of the minor leaguersand just being very judicious about what you
get back. Look for a bunchof consolidation trades. Maybe try to trade
one star player and two to threeprospects for the prospect of your dreams.
Just you know, I think evenbe willing to take a loss on the

(09:05):
trade, just because you know,I think adding more minor leaguers to the
situation is really not you know,there's dimission returns in terms of your tenth
eleventh keeper. You are really sacrificingdepth next year, and at some point
you want to get off this treadmill, especially since you already have what's probably

(09:26):
a pretty solid contending core. SoI think in the email you mentioned like
they can't let go Tony Gonsolin,which is fine. I mean, you
know, I have dumb keepers onall of our teams as well. You're
welcome, and I'm not even sayingthat's the dump keep. I think it's

(09:48):
fine. Just you know, asthe eleventh or twelfth keeper on a team,
you're really cutting into what else youcan do in your flexibility, both
in season in getting more minor leagueplay years and after the season, you
know, keeping them. I thinkit's not just you know, the opportunity
costs, because the twenty sixth roundpick is not really anything. It's just

(10:11):
you know, you basically you makeit much harder for your team to win
a championship if you're only in keepingtwenty four twenty five players will be a
recurring issue in that case. Sothere are there specific minor leaguers in his
league that you think he should betargeting. Yeah, um targeting. I

(10:33):
didn't look closely, Okay, soprobably honest, But um, you know,
I think you probably know the playersyou like. I would look for
players on contending teams. Um,you know, maybe look for players who
dropped out of it this year ifanyone gets hurt for the rest of the
year and is a you know,as a regular, Um, you know,

(10:56):
we've definitely done the Lands of theColors gambit in a bunch of leagues.
But as players like that, pileup in you're in our league,
you know, take a look.I would say as well, Um,
you know, because I don't thinkthis this team is going to be bad
this year, but I don't thinkit's far from contention. And we have

(11:16):
a couple of teams like that,so you know that's. Um, that
is the advantage of a continuing league. It's very hard in one year league.
And I think we'll talk about thatin a second too, um,
because I think we have some morethoughts on this kind of topic. But
that's all I have on this,Jared, anything to add, No,

(11:41):
I think it's good. I stillthink it's better than than you guys think
it is. But it's not thatit's not a good team. It's that
this isn't the year right the waythat it's currently constituted, Like the stuff
that he got the spring draft isn'tit's not enough. And and even if
he had a great outlook on things, he's already lasted the division. He's

(12:03):
already behind by ten games. Youknow. It's like he'd have to have
more depth, playing better and outplaying those other teams by enough that it
doesn't make sense to me to tryto win this year. When as Ian
was saying, it's in a greatposition to try to contend for next year
because the core is really good,the keepers are pretty solid, and if

(12:26):
you take the opportunity now, youcan really build something that will be pretty
solid next year. And I thinkshow pretty well and like make the playoffs,
maybe not win anything like championship.But it would be a huge missed
opportunity to try to go for thisyear and spoil the good position that he's

(12:48):
in to be really good next year. I think that's fair. Yeah,
And it's interesting because because so muchof the talent is in the starting there,
there's also kind of a time limitthe other way, so you know,
either consider maybe trading out you're startingpitchers for fixing up holes in your

(13:11):
lineup, maybe an outfielder again,even if you're losing trades that way.
It's just things that things that youcan take into twenty twenty and be confident
in by the end of the year. So all right. I think this
is one of the reasons that scoresheetis kind of fun though, because this
is a line of a team thatand say a standard rotor league could be

(13:33):
fairly competitive right now, I think, But Scoresheet is all about the depth,
which is a fun twist for thosebut feel like that sort of thing,
right, a team that's struggling primarilybecause the eighteenth for thirty fifth positions
on the roster are weak. Yeah, yeah, which is the thing.

(13:56):
The thing that separates Scoresheet from fantasyis just trolling those like relief pitching depth
charts, looking looking for the setupman who are out of options in the
middle of March, maybe on abeach somewhere. Who knows the thing that
says, I have made a choicewith my life and I'm going to see

(14:18):
it through. That's all the questionswe had scores you to a Baseball perspectives
ian. Do you think there areother people that are in similar positions,
say three or four weeks into theseason, trying to figure out what to
do about their team that's not performing? Well, wow, that is quite

(14:39):
a segue. Whoa um, whatshould they do? I think I think
I got some good advice in myinbox this week from Jeff Barton. He
says it's time to painting. Yeah, so we we eat all us and
you the listener got an email thisweek from the Barns that kind of got

(15:03):
pinned on their topic board, soI will I guess at some level this
is a mail back Captain, SoI don't know, Jared if you want
to read it, but I dohave it in front of me if you
think to go ahead, because thiswasn't sent to me. Okay, that's
fair, thank you for making mea saysy captain. Anyway, Hi,

(15:26):
y'all. As far as performance ofplayers who are still healthy, I generally
do not worry too much if oneof my players has a slow start the
first week or so. But ifafter twenty games a guy is still performing
poorly, then I start to thinkit might be time for that player to
ride some pine, especially if he'sgetting up there in age. Of course,

(15:48):
that doesn't always work out well either. We know the sinking feeling of
benching a guy just before he getshot. Decisions such as went to start
a guy who's been hot, orto bench a guy even if he was
one of your higher draft picks,or what makes us playing playing this game
fun? Hey and air quotes aroundfun just for verse similitude. Overall,
though, while I always preach patientsthe first week or two, at three

(16:11):
week mark, I think drastic changesare often called for best of luck in
your decision making, Ben, Doyou think this is good advice? Man?
That's a setup. No, ButI think so it's an interesting It's

(16:32):
interesting to contrast the email with Jacob'steam because I don't think my answer about
Jacob's team changes a whole lot nowthan it would have before the season started,
like based on the depth that hehas, right, Like, he
came into the season with two relieversand you know, only one catcher,

(16:52):
really only one first baseman, onlyyou know, like two or three middle
infielders. So he was going tohave a tough go over the long haul
of the full six month season becausedepth is so important in scoresheet, like
you guys are saying. And Ithink there's a big difference between changing your
evaluation of the team between the startof the season and now, which is

(17:15):
what Jeff Barton is talking about,and being realistic with yourself when you're taking
stock of your team, which iswhat I was hoping to do for Jacob.
And so I think, like Jeff'sadvice is not something I would agree
with. I think we're definitely tooearly in the season to change, you
know, in the big picture sense, like your evaluation of whether you thought

(17:37):
your team was going to be competitiveor not. And I think it's really
too bad that Jeff's email isn't morecareful about describing like the ways that you
might be able to tell whether theperformance that you've seen in the win lost
column is indicative of the talent onthe team and what you should expect going

(18:00):
forward. Right, And we've talkedabout this a little bit before, but
you know, you can even diginto just on a very cursory level for
your scoresy team, like have theybeen you know, quote unquote lucky,
You're unlucky in terms of sequencing,in terms of like the runs they scored
and allowed? How closely does theirPythagorean win percentage, Like how close is
that to their actual you know,like one loss for the scoreshy team.

(18:21):
But then you can also look atcomparing the players as scoresy performance to their
real life performance, and something liketeam Tracker on Baseball Perspectives site can be
really helpful for that too, whereyou can sort of look at real life
performance season to date and compare itto the sim performance season to date and
say, like, well, doI have some luck balancing or other like
balance back stuff that might be comingmy way down the road. And and

(18:45):
I think if you have seen somethingnotable in the beginning of season, like
like Jeff mentioned, like an injuryor something like that, Yeah, yeah,
that's maybe a reason to change youroutlook. But borrying something major like
that, I think it's it's waytoo early. And I think, um,
I think a lot of people areprobably savvy enough to see that,

(19:06):
and so it's a little bit Idon't know. It's interesting to me that
Jeff would give that advice in thatemail newsletter that you can't opt out of
if you want to. All Right, we're learning a lot of best practices
today and a lot of different fields. Um. Any any thoughts, so

(19:30):
Ben, when is the time hewould start making That's a good question.
Um, I guess maybe a thirdof the way into the season is when
I would like take stock of itand think about changing course. You know.
One of the things too, iseven if you wait until a third

(19:55):
of the way to the season,which is like two months, so that's
you know, what end of Maysomething like that, you're still gonna have
plenty of time to make any tradesor change your approach for your supplemental picks.
And I think way too often wehave this emotional reaction to our team
like, oh, this stud likethese guys are the suckiest bunch of sucks

(20:19):
that ever sucked, Like I'm gettingrid of them. But stop reading.
But you have but you have to, like you have to like take that
emotional reaction set aside, try tobe a little bit rational about it and
be like, Okay, like what'sactually changed in terms of like preseason projections
or what I was expecting this teamto do. And and I guess maybe

(20:44):
people just feel like that it's likeI have to do something, but you
don't. And yeah, I wouldwait at least two months. And even
if you waited like another month ortwo after that, you're getting an extra
like two weeks after the Major LeagueBaseball trade deadline going into August to make
trades and score sheet. You know, it's like there's a lot of time

(21:04):
left to try to move the playersthat are going to be helpful to contenders.
And because the September performances waited soheavily in score sheet in the playoffs,
those playoff contenders are going to besuper interested in those players that you
have that are you know, closerto the one hit wonder side of the
value spectrum in terms of, youknow, gonna be good this year,
maybe next, but not really greatin the long run, that a team

(21:27):
that wants to rebuild for the futurewould be happy to deal to a playoff
contender. And a lot of timesthe playoff contender is going to be more
interested in August because they're going tohave more cost certainty run what they're getting
right now. People are like,I don't know if that hot start is
for real or not, and you'reprobably not going to get great value for
the guy that you have that you'dlike to trade because you want to punt

(21:48):
on the season, because the team'splaying terribly. There's all kinds of great
reasons to wait. And I think, yeah, I would wait at least
two months, even three or four. I think you're as long as you're
giving yourself a couple of weeks beforethe trade deadline, you'll be fine.
So to give Jeff the benefit ofthe dead here, or to play the
advocate, maybe is it possible thatwhat he means by drastic changes is not

(22:11):
blow up your team, because,like earlier in the paragraph, he's talking
about Benching, a guy who isnot hitting it, well so is So
do you think by jestic changes it'spossible. He's meaning, you know,
rejigger your lineup or you know,put someone on the bench and bringing someone
in, as opposed to deciding,oh, my team is not going to
compete this year. So by drasticchanges, you mean the opposite of drastic

(22:32):
changes. Well, the thing isthat, like in score sheet, there's
not that many ways because without awaiver wire, there's not many ways you
can change your team, right,There aren't a ton of levers in score
sheet, right, Benching, somebodyis a relatively I mean, not drastic.
I won't use the word drastic,sure, but I mean, is
it possible. That's what he's suggesting, as opposed to deciding, Oh,
your team is not going to becompetitive this year. Yeah. Well,

(22:55):
especially you know with score sheets.I guess origination as kind of a one
year league. I think, youknow, there's still sometimes the one year
mentality and like, oh my god, I have to win this year,

(23:17):
and you know, I I alsolike, I know we were teaming this
up, but there's a part ofme that definitely feels what Jeff feels and
agrees with it. You know,there was an article that came out this
week in Baseball Perspectives by former guestMark Marry which kind of got into this
very same kind of feeling. Youknow, the it's just start as team

(23:45):
starts six to nine and then youhave that one six week right at the
top, and then you know,are you are you okay with that or
do you just you know panic?And I feel it too. We're in
a league where we are you knowagain SSSIM if you if you go all

(24:06):
the way out, you know,we have the top SSIM in the league,
but the team is in last place, and it's last place in a
twelve team league. It's nine gamesout of first it's you know, four
games out of the playoffs with amillion teams in front of us. I
don't know, you know, youmaybe maybe there's some panicking going on,

(24:32):
Maybe there's something drastic that we haveto do. Um. You know,
I think there is tremendous pressure topunt because you know, one of the
other things men that you talk aboutis it's it's good to wait and good
Um that value kind of stays thesame. But I think there's also benefit
to being the first mover. Isthat right. Yeah, I think it's

(24:56):
good to be able to set themarket for some of this stuff, but
a lot of continuing leagues are goingto have enough history that you don't get
a ton of variability and say,like what kind of draft pick you're going
to get for a good reliever orsomething like that. And I think it's
it's definitely better to be first tomarket if you feel like you're going to

(25:17):
have a little bit of an advantagein terms of leverage with trading partners or
something like that. But you know, there's also situations where you know,
if you're the last one in andyou've got the last really good player and
there are three teams that are ina dog fight for that last playoff spot,
then you're in a really good positionto trade. So I don't think

(25:38):
it's obviously always best to be firstin. My personal preference is usually to
be first in because I like thefeeling of like sort of control or whatever
you want to call it in termsof setting setting the price on some of
those types of things. But that'sI think more of a personal preference than

(25:59):
it is like general guideline that Ithink everybody should try to follow. Yeah,
so it's interesting. So in termsof like advice for a team that
is like ours, let's say eightor nine games out in a league where
you thought you were competing, orlike maybe Jacob was, you hoped you

(26:22):
were competing. You know, there'strading, there's the supplemental market, but
I feel like it's very tough togain an advantage in a supplemental market.
And as you were saying, Jared, I think it benefits a very specific
type of team, right, ateam who's collapse is due not to let's

(26:44):
say, the complete failure of theirbest players, but injuries and or lack
of depth. Right, if thereare one or two holes that are just
if the team is just like leakinginnings or something like that and you need
to paper it over, or youare literally the worst team in the league
and you get that one Max Munciebump, right, which can sometimes happen

(27:11):
in the first draft or two.You know, I think it's interesting to
think of in terms of one yearleagues as well, because there are leagues
out there that don't have luxury ofhunting and they're you know, we did
plenty to talk more about it.So let's say it is a situation like

(27:32):
we are in let's say, inour in our actual league that is pretty
close functionally to a one year leaguewhere we are six games out of all
of a sudden. Are there waysthat you can think of to kind of
help your team mid season if somethingbad has gone wrong? I mean,
I think you have to have asense for what the weakness is on the

(27:55):
team. And if you're if yourbullpen is the weakness, like, that's
something that's easy to show up.If it's you know, lack of power
or something on offense, well Iguess that doesn't really happen anymore. But
if it's lack of you know,lack of depth in the middle infield or
something like that, you know,a lack of top end talent in the

(28:18):
corners, you know, those thingsare all going to have different prices,
and you have to have some otherrelative strength at least within your team that
you can try to deal from totry to address it, to make the
team, you know, maybe alittle bit more balanced. But honestly,
I think a lot of times inwhen year leagues you're sort of stuck because
unless you get a really good opportunityfor a challenge trade that helps you shift.

(28:44):
You know, you've got eight greatstarting pitchers and you're okay with dealing
one or two to you know,add another outfield or something like that,
and there's a team that is inthe converse situation. You know, those
types of situations don't happen very often, and it makes it tough, I
think, to be able to pulloff something that's going to actually have a

(29:04):
meaningful impact on your team's performance thatseason. Yeah, I think there are
two things potentially that I would recommend, although I will say, like I
agree with you that the reason wedon't talk about one year leagues as much
is that so much of them aredecided in March and then through injuries that

(29:26):
you know, if you end upin a hole, it's just incredibly difficult
to get out of it. Butso two things that I might recommend if
you are an active owner and youwant to try to change your fate.
One is to trade your solid starsfor like incredibly risky investments and maybe crack

(29:48):
your crack your lineup a bit.If their depth is the problem, just
trade your starter for two people whomay have playing time issues and just hope
and pray. You know, Ithink minute a lot of the time,
it might go worse, but Ithink you're just looking for the chance that
you know, Ryan McMahon grabs thejob and runs away with it, or
Alex Rodugo somehow becomes a starter,or you know, they call up whoever.

(30:15):
I guess all the stars are inthe major leagues at this point.
But you know, if if somebody, if somebody actually gets called up,
you know, look for kind ofmid level prospects. I don't know,
I would just start accepting more andmore risk into your team. The other
strategy that I might suggest is,you know, just there is one form

(30:40):
of time value in a one yearleague, and that's you know, you
trade your players who are of moreuse in the playoffs for players who might
be of more use in the regularseason. So it's really like trading off
over performer for underperformers and just hopingthat they bounce back. I would say,

(31:06):
almost no matter how bad they are. But uh, you know,
I can think of a major leagueteam that has really tested those out of
boundaries recently. But um, youknow, I think again like that I'm
saying earlier because because some of thatSeptember value is locked in. You know,

(31:30):
I think if you well, ifyou're a terrible team with Christian yellits,
you have made some mistakes in life. But you know, I think
if there is anybody who has hada hot month of the season, I
would just flog them now to ato a contender and get that underperforming player
and just hope. Like if you'reif you're in last, if you're second

(31:52):
to last and won year league.You know, I think you're just looking
for things to bounce back your way, and you want to get into the
playoffs, and you can deal withU looking stupid later. Makes sense,
all right? So any anything else? Are are we ready to panic?

(32:15):
I'm glad you said that word becauseI have a Joe Panic segue digression.
I want to make sure yes,my favorite type of pandic is Joe panic.
I just read this book Infinite Baseball. I'm holding up to the camera
but only gets can see. It'sfrom a philosopher at the ballpark by Alvin
No. I don't know that Iwould recommend it necessarily to anyone in particular,

(32:37):
and I think a lot of oneover my head because I don't do
philosophy. But he had a storyabout Joe Panic in there, and Joe
Panic's name was spelled wrong. Itwas spelled like the word panic rather than
like the last name Joe Panic.And this is like multiple times in an
index too, but so one.I don't know if maybe it's just a
philosophy thing that's going over my head, but why he misspelled it? But

(33:00):
too, Like it made me thinkof how hard it has to be to
be an editor for a book onphilosophy and baseball and like to get that
right, like to be to besomeone who could get all the philosophical stuff
down but also know how like JoePanic is an actual person and not just
this construct that this author came upwith, like Joe cool, but yeah,
like how is how is an editors? Oh? I don't know.

(33:23):
He could type Joe Panic into Google, but like if you don't know that,
nothing would come up. It wouldall be the other Joe Panic philosophical
construct. It's like the anti clutch, like not Jeter. Uh, that

(33:45):
is funny, that's it. It'sa slim volume. Like I don't know
if i'dn't necessarily recommend it, Buthow did you end up reading a philosophy
philosophy book about baseball? Uh?My mom got it for me so there
you go. That'll do it,all right. She got it for me,
and she's like, you know,this didn't even get that great reviews,
but here you go. Yes,I'm right always the way I like

(34:07):
to get Again, I don't thinkpeople appreciate how much your mother loves books
and like media in general. Butlike, yeah, that's a very that's
a very quintessential story of your motherthing. It's like the only reason that
she hasn't left her job yet isbecause part of her job entails ordering thousands

(34:29):
of dollars of books each year,and that's like her favorite thing in the
world, and she takes a lotof crap in order to like just hang
on to that. Basically, allright, whatever joy um. So,
I think other than that topic,where I think we decided it is not

(34:52):
tied to panic unless it days umyou know the kind of advice we always
like to get. Um D.We are going to extend our best thing
we saw this week topic a littlebit because just just some bigger things that

(35:13):
we saw this week. I wouldnot say this is the best thing I
saw this week, but one thingI saw this week very recently over the
weekend was um, the Tampa BayRays playing the Boston Red Sox and the
Tampa Bay Raise. UH. Idon't know if you heard of this,

(35:34):
if you heard from this game,but the Tampa Bay Rays um set the
team record for triples in one gamewith four UM and it was it was
very interesting to me. UM weirdgame. The Rays Raise actually lost six

(35:55):
five to the to the Red Sox. UM, but I was struck by
this feeling when um, let's seeg MANCHOI hit the first triple in the
fourth inning and uh Yandi DS wasup and I was like, oh,
this will be um, you know, this will be fun. The the

(36:20):
Rays are gonna get back at it. And then U Yandi d has grounded
out and I realized, oh,everyone is right. It doesn't matter what
base you are on too, Likeit may as well be first base.
You gruns out like a lot.Yeah, well, Yandi D has hit

(36:45):
another home run. This is allhappening for him this year. But yeah
no, I realized, like,oh runner on first because there were actually
two instances of this in the UHin the game with a leadoff triple,
and both times like the first playergranted out and then a player was out
and I could just see you know, the strikeout happening, and I'm like,

(37:07):
oh god, this is like It'sbeen a long time since I've had
to calibrate my expectations after a triplewatching modern baseball, so um, you
know, I feel like it wasa real strange thing. And actually half
of them scored, so it wasin both cases it was a triple with

(37:30):
one out, then a triple scoredthe run, and then that player was
stranded on third. We twice.Yeah, I know it was a strange,
strange experience, but it kind ofjust brought to mind, Um again,
we've been talking about this, uhrabbit ball for the past couple of
weeks, how the game is changing. And I don't know if we've assed

(37:53):
like Jared, especially since you watchedbaseball uh pretty regular or you know,
like effects Emily thereof do you likethis not the team like the concept of
like the baseball that we're watching rightnow. Well, I mean it's putting

(38:15):
the o's in position to set somepretty spectacular records. So in that sense,
sure, what record would that be? Most time runs given up by
a team in a season? Ever? They said the one for I obviously
saw this one. I think itwas in that article. Yeah, who
sports one. The Os have givenup the most home runs through the end

(38:37):
of April, and so the recordthrough the end of April was fifty and
the O's broke that with ten gamesto go in so it's been a good
season. Yeah. Yeah. Thepitching is not holding up as well as
I thought it was. And Idid think they were gonna be the worst

(38:59):
team in league by a lot,So ups and downs. They're hitting better
than I thought. They're hitting homeruns, sure everyone, Yeah, um,
you know, is it? Iwas just curious, like aesthetically,
are you happy with baseball in themoment um? You know. I think

(39:21):
one of the things that has happenedbetween last podcasts and this is, uh,
we've seen kind of Rob Arthur articleson baseball perspectives that first, the
the coefficient drag is back down right, so balls are flying everywhere. And
then the Triple A ball was replacedby the Major League ball. I assume

(39:43):
most people have heard this, andthen home runs are up in Triple A
by thirty percent, which, asa person who watches a lot of Triple
A games is a real bummer becauselike, um, they already play most
of those games on like the moonin the PCL though, that's just gonna
be like a thousand home runs.Um yeah, is this uh you know,

(40:05):
is a game where Gi Monchoy,a player not you know, should
not be hitting a triples does hita triple. It's amazing, you know,
the whole like it was. Itwas great because it was like the
first thing that happened to the raysand four innings, so everyone was like
a top step and cheering him on, and you know, Tropicana Field was
rocking. The DJ was like fakeplaying music. That's an insight joke.

(40:29):
Sorry, we went to Tropicana Fieldonce. The DJ was like spinning the
whole day and nothing was coming out. It was very strange and we have
talked about it for a decade since. Um, but the whole day it
was just the second thid to seventhinning just standing there just like spinning a
thing and like listening, but nosound was coming out. I don't get

(40:50):
it, just okay, but youknow, so it was like this moment
whereas like everyone's excited, but hedidn't get home and you know, it
wasn't a home run. And thenI was like, oh, that's right.
I don't know that anything's going tohappen like, yeah, that's not
a run necessarily, or it's likeit wouldn't even be a surprise if it

(41:14):
wasn't a run, right, Ithink it's less esthetically pleasing for me personally,
if that's your question. Yeah,I mean maybe just because it's a
different front I'm used to and Istill think of it in the old terms.
But yeah, right right. Isit like a kids these days thing?
Yeah, like with their bull hoopsand their singles or you know home

(41:38):
runs. Where's the day where youcould you know, drive knock a runner
over. It's interesting to me becauseI'm of two minds. Like, you
know, I do feel I dofeel the inertness a little bit, like
it does feel like there's an aspectof home run or bust that you know,

(41:59):
it's pervasive. It's not just likewhen it happens, It just like
pervades your thinking. It's like,oh, this team has to hit a
home run here, you know,which is kind of different even than like
or let's just let them, youknow, get the bay or you know,
runners a scoring position, let's geta single drive over And it's like,

(42:21):
well you can, but that's justlike less likely than ever. Um,
you know, but there's an aspectlike the way I watch games too
is I don't know if it's changedif it was the way I always watched
it, But you know, Ifind myself much more interested in the batter
pitcher interaction than before. And Ithink, to me, that is the

(42:45):
thing that has been compensating that.That's kind of what I've been realizing in
this world, Like why am Inot completely turned off by baseball? Um?
You know, I think I likestrikeouts more than most people. And
I think I like home runs morethan most people, Like I think most
people like home er But you know, I I think there's this aspect of

(43:07):
um, the part of the gamethat I most focus on is that like
interaction. And I've never liked throwsto first. I've never really liked you
know, hitting behind the runner andpositioning and all that stuff. Like I
don't really enjoy stolen bases as muchas most people. Maybe it's just because

(43:27):
I grew up, you know,kind of pre saberized in the early nineties
way like, or mid nineties waylike. I was a kid when I
first discovered saber metrics. So likeme and the people younger than me are
all like we never cared about RBIsand winning winning is a function of hitting

(43:50):
oh run sun, Um you knowthat. Um. I think I I
do think of myself as being likea slightly younger generation that way in terms
of fandom, like a post youknow, the right way to play,
And I think on some level ithas been kind of interesting to see this

(44:15):
like being pulled to an end andsaying, Okay, it just really narrows
down the focus of what a gameis because you have the position. You
know, I think all the shiftingthat's going on, and it's just not
as compelling to me as like,you know, is this a player like
swing changing, a player pulp goingto the pulse side, or just you

(44:36):
know, I think the types ofpitches that are being thrown. And you
know, I think I've spent muchmore time focusing on the micro than the
macro of the game as well.Do you think you would feel similarly if
we had more certainty about like theintegrity of the baseball like you're talking about
before, or like the the consistencyof some of those things that we had

(45:00):
previously assumed we're going to be thesame, so that you could, like,
for example, chock all of itup to usage pattern changes and like
you know, like the way thatlet's stry pitching pitch or usage pattern changes.
You know, like it do youthink do you think it makes sense

(45:22):
that that's the big part of it? And how much of the like unknown
ball juicing types of things are aproblem, right, because to me,
that's like outside the game in away, right, Like that's the thing
that's like that shouldn't that shouldn't change, right, Baseball shouldn't be making those

(45:44):
tweaks without um like having a goodreason or like having a little bit of
transparency about it. But the likestrategic shifts are like defensive repositioning or only
having pitchers face you know, abatter or two, Like those things are
more like well, if that's theway that the manager thinks is best around
the team, then you know that'stheir prerogative. Does that make a difference

(46:05):
for you in terms of like howyou how much you enjoy what's going on
and whether like the changes are thingsthat you can feel good about watching or
like still are entertained by. Yeah, it's interesting, like the thing the
changes over the years that have reallyupset me or you know, not you
like relatively obsessed me. Yeah,exactly. We all understand those table stakes

(46:29):
here. Um, you know,I think losing the power of the starting
pitcher has been upsetting to me.I understand it esthetically. I do think
probably the best rotation is just like, there are you guys going one time
through the order. I think eventuallythat's what baseball will be. But you're

(46:51):
not telling me to bring it backto the Orioles. But tonight was the
first oriol starter who lasted seven inningsin a game. Okay, partially that's
on the Orioles. But yeah,who was it? Um, Andrew Kashner?
Wow, all right, wasn't hethe opening day starter? Yeah?
Well, you do want your teammatesto really soak up some innings where you

(47:15):
he's leading by example. Yeah,that's fair. H No, I think
I feel like that has been aproblem. I feel like, um,
some of the inertness of like thelack of substitutions I find much more upsetting.
You know, I think in especiallyAmerican League games, you'll go the

(47:35):
entire game and no, there's nobatter substitution, no pitch hitting. Pinch
hitting is probably losing strategy, butthere's no like optimistic like somebody is coming
in like this changes everything heavens,Like, yeah, it's just like,
you know, a picture throws threeinnings and then they bring in another picture
throws three innings, and then theybring in another picture throws three innings and

(47:57):
then it's done. Um for so, I feel like that's the part that
is a little alienating to me,Like the moment to moment thing, the
actual ball itself, I'm mostly okaywith. I feel like, if the
alternative is just nineteen sixty eight,I would rather have this, you know,

(48:22):
I don't know what would happen ifthe ball was deadened, Like would
people, would the sinker come back? I don't know, would like one
run strategies come back. It doesn'tfeel like one when run strategies are going
to come back. If the ballis deadened, it feels like they were
always losing strategies right, Like you'dhave to make bigger changes to the game

(48:43):
in order to make that acceptable.I think you would just have a game
where no one's scored ever, whichmay have its own charms. But I
don't know. Um, you know, Jared, I don't know how you

(49:05):
feel about that. I don't wantto keep monologueing because you were also watching
games pretty regularly. What you're tryingto say, I'm saying, Ben that
you don't watch games all that regularlyand this thing to you exercise, I
don't watch baseball games all that bigthings. Well, let me ask Ben,

(49:27):
um, because you grew up amongthe thee of us playing baseball,
yes, in an organized manner.Yeah. I was reflecting on that when
Ian was talking about like how hewas raised on sacred metrics. Actually,
yeah, you were raised on actuallyplaying the game and getting outside and seeking
the sun well and like all thatstupid traditionalist shit like hitting behind the runner

(49:47):
and all the other things that yousaid. Like you were saying that,
and of course that's a podcast,but I was sitting here like nodding along,
like yep, I remember being taughtthat, and I remember being taught
that. You know, it's like, oh yeah, like doing little thing
like you get the ice cream conewhen you're six, and then you get
the slap on the back when you'refourteen or something. I guess I don't

(50:08):
know. I don't reflect on thatas much as like the actual on the
field stuff that you were talking about, Like I remember very vividly my high
school coach telling me, like,you should swing at the first fastball.
You see, Like that's like that'sour hitting approach, is like hit the
first fastball you can. And youknow, I learned a long time ago

(50:30):
that that's a kind of terrible approach. But I was also never a great
hitter, so it didn't it didn'tmatter for me personally. No, Lend
Powell, I heard, Oh,you have to explain that a little bit.
He was in he was in yourarea, right, Yeah, I

(50:50):
played on the junior legion team whenhe was on the senior legion team.
I like knew him, and hisdad coached the junior legion team. His
dad was a good old boy anyway, hopefully, yeah, hopefully I said
that with the appropriate intonation that everyunderstands how I feel about that. A

(51:15):
slight dramatic pause there. I wasreally worried about what's going to come.
I mean, I was trying tofigure out what's like, what's the right
word, Like a second, we'regetting pulled, right, It's not that
bad, uh, Jerry, whatwere you actually going to ask? As
I sort of interrupted you as youwere framing your question, and then I

(51:35):
interrupted you as you were answering atso that's why we make good podcasts.
No, I just think that's likeUni was saying, he doesn't care as
much about the not stacy instation kindof approach, but like it's fine if
the game is just entirely strikeouts andHomer's And I was just wondering if you
had a different sentiment. I realizedyou don't hu that close to the traditionalist

(51:57):
point of view, but like ifyou you know, growing being brought up
in word, that's what you weredoing, and there's more emphasis on the
moving the runners around. If that'ssomething that you would miss. It's hard
because I've I've not been enamored bybaseball in so long, you know,
like I don't even remember what itis that I guess I remember some of

(52:20):
what it was that like drew mein, but it's not something that I
appreciate like I once did. SoI don't have like a a good answer
for you in the present. Ido think that one of the things that
I remember feeling is that baseball wasone of those things that if you didn't
play it, I always understood whypeople didn't like watching it on TV because

(52:42):
there aren't enough opportunities watching it onTV to appreciate some of the little things
that happen, like the middle endfielders talking to each other like in between
pitches, or the coaches from thedugout like giving hand signals to the catcher
or to the outfielders or whatever.You know, Like there's all kinds of
little things that you can see likethat if you're at the game in person

(53:06):
or if you know, like sometimesthey show it on broadcasts and stuff.
But you know, generally, especiallyfor people that aren't baseball players or haven't
been watching baseball games with baseball players, when they watch baseball games on TV,
it's like, oh, this isnot as exciting as you know,
basketball or whatever, because the actionis a little bit less frequent and it's

(53:30):
harder to appreciate those like nuanced things. I guess, I don't know if
those nuanced things are still present ornot. You know, like, just
because just because the outcomes on thefield are different, doesn't necessarily mean that
the left fielder isn't still trying tobe in the best position that they can
be in. It just means thatthe number of situations where it matters what

(53:52):
position they're in are lower. Andis that better or worse, Like I
don't know, you know, likeyou could still see value. In fact,
it might be even like enhanced valuein you know, that coach having
a sense for where that left fieldershould be, and you know, when

(54:12):
that one opportunity comes and that leftfielder is able to get to a ball
that's you know, in the gapor in the corner or whatever because of
that positioning. Like, I thinkthat's interesting, you know, and all
that still happens, right, Ifanything, we've gotten better at that with
all of the defensive metrics and spraycharts and stack cast and everything that's happened

(54:34):
over the less twenty years or whatever. So I don't know, I don't
think it changes too much. Ialso think as a fan, like I
I like high scoring games enough,you know, like I think generally that
means more stuff is happening, andthe stuff that is happening is more likely
to be exciting, and I thinkthose are good things. Yeah, I

(55:00):
you know, I think especially fromour generation, like the generation before us
had this reverie for one nothing pitchingduels, right that was like the game
that they grew up in. Andthen you know, the two to one
games and I don't know that neverreally I like them as a as a
spice, but not as the flavor. Okay, that's a funny way to

(55:25):
describe it. Yeah, I thinkI like I think I like my flavor
being like lots of two run homeruns. Yeah. Yeah, there's a
part of me that like really didcome of age in nineteen ninety eight as
much as I Yeah, you know, I don't want to say it's like
I do like the giant offense ballto some degree. I mean, that's

(55:51):
also how I prefer to build fantasyteams. We have like the sort of
a running joke about the King's teambecause you know, the only way they're
gonna win as if they score Brazilionruns because there's only one picture. But
even going back to when before westarted teaming up, I think I mentioned
this on the pod before, butlike before we teamed up to run teams,

(56:12):
I ran a team by myself ina league where you guys ran a
team together, and like my wholeteam was basically predicated on just having the
best possible offense, Like I didn'teven care how good the pitching was.
Is like, well, I willroster some pictures and try to avoid like
Triple A picture. But I'm gonnadraft like my first trend. Draft picks

(56:34):
are all gonna be hitters. AndI love that team I had, like
peak Albert Poohles and Evan Longoria andJoe Mauer and I don't know, yeah,
I just remember it very fondly.It's interesting, like well first first
bent. Just to correct the record, Carls Martinez was activated today. We
have two pictures on our team.Nice, So look out, King's League,

(57:01):
We're coming for you. Um didyou guys see the dig that Nate
put at us in his like emailtelling like reminding people about the supplemental Yeah,
Nate thinks that we uh Nate,Nate Steven's former guest thinks that we
might in fact be intentionally losing,or at least the one of our team

(57:22):
is bad by design, our onein twenty one team maybe in the tank.
I don't know, you know,I can neither confirm nor deny.
It's not like we've gone on playto win each game. We tell our
boys to go out there and trytheir hardest, like a picture. Triple
A has gone out there and givenhis all, Damnita after game several times

(57:46):
he's there and ready to go.Um hang, I have one thing about
that. I'm glad that we finallygot beyond the like, uh discussions about
tanking, where like the implication wasthat the players weren't trying. It's like,
no, no, everybody realizes now, it's not the players that aren't
trying, it's the management. It'slike every player that ever goes on the

(58:12):
field is competitive and is always goingto try to win. And that's fine.
That's why you put terrible players onthe field if you don't want to
win. Sorry, no, that'sfine. Um, you haven't seen Major
League so you mean it's the ownership. Do you want to move your team
to? Is it Las Vegas?It's been a very long time since I

(58:34):
watched Major League Miami. This isa thing Google, And you know,
people are yelling at us if weassuming we had listeners who haven't turned this
off in protest yet, big assumption. But we turned off a protest.
Why would this turn now? Andthe pointism I make is they try to

(58:55):
field intentionally terrible players, but theyended up winning, sure because the players
wanted to win. Oh my god, so many will win. He just
knows how to win. Yet,you fucking swarm more than the other team.
It's the dumbest shit in the world. Sorry, yeah, so we

(59:20):
are we are also caught between twoplanes here. You know. I think
we're a little disturbed by the changesin offense and the slowing of the game,
but we are also children of thenineties and we take the long ball.
Yeah, so, um, youknow a lot. We will be
monitoring that going forward, as wellas eventually singles are removed from the game

(59:46):
entirely and we just watch home inDerby the platonic ideal. I think the
Orioles are well set up for thatfor that event. With with twenty three
first baseman your roster. Didn't thisall start with you saying we are going
to extend the best things we sawa segment? Yeah? Yeah, okay,

(01:00:08):
so the best thing I thought,No, I mean okay, yeah,
go ahead, Sorry, yeah thatwas a baseball game. Yeah,
okay, So the best thing Isaw this week was the launch of um
non factor baseball game. The launchof Imparatory Rome, which people either are

(01:00:34):
cheering for or going including here.For those who should not know. Imparatore
Rome is a game from Paradox Studios. The developers who created such games as
Crusader Kings two, Europa Universalist forStilarius and others. Essentially, these are

(01:00:55):
giant paint the world war game gamesslash development builders. If you have played
Civilization you would be somewhat familiar withthe concept, and this one is set
in the Roman era. Um.So I watched it. Jared, who

(01:01:16):
is also a fan of these gamesand these type of games, watched it
preview and Jared, what did youthink. I'm super excited. I need
to buy it right now. Ineed to be playing. I want to
stop talking you guys and just startplaying this game. Yeah. I believe
it is out this week um orif not soon the embargo is lifted.

(01:01:38):
It is. It is a delight. What makes what makes these games compelling
to you? So? I don'tknow which one is your favorite? Actually
are you? That's a good question. I mean probably europe Universalis let's say,
Okay, it depends for it's usuallyjust whicheveryone I played most recently.

(01:02:00):
M yeah, so there. Sotheir Grand strategy games is sort of what
they're described as, which means there'sall sorts of interlocking systems that you have
to manage it. It's basically atits core. It's just like a super
big spreadsheet with lots of buttons andknobs that you're twittling. So I like
that. I don't know if you'regoing for the sandbox aspect of it.

(01:02:20):
For me, that's actually one ofthe things that's hardest for me to get
into. The sandbox aspect. It'sone of the cool things about the game,
but I'm someone who tends to liketo be a little bit more directed
in these sorts of games, soit takes a wall for me to adjust
to that. So for me,it's just cool seeing how all the different
systems interact with each other. Yeah, so you know, I do feel

(01:02:43):
like you know, I do feellike this is not so far afield from
simulated baseball or even real baseball.It's like a combination of interlocking systems.
I think is the thing that iscompelling to both of us. I think
what I like most is the narrativewhere you're crazy king you know, I

(01:03:05):
don't know, sends your rival tothe Ubliet and conquers another country, and
then all of a sudden it's strickenwith small pox vers sins, which is
why I'm a kind of crusader ofkings. Too fan at heart, just
like marrying different people. Yeah,exactly. So for me, it is
always the combination of moving things onthe spreadsheet and a bunch of narrative stories

(01:03:27):
about a bunch of random people,which is exactly what I like about baseball,
knowing way too much about like sevenhundreds and nine hundred people, some
of whom may be fictional at anyone time. So this also sounds like
everything I've ever heard you guys talkabout pop culture. So yeah, very

(01:03:50):
much. But you know, Ithink I think it's interesting because one of
the things that is compelling to memost about the Paradox type gains is their
use of well, like you said, interlocking systems, and they have a
lot of levers, and you know, I feel like, as you were

(01:04:13):
saying earlier, I think in thepanic section even it's it's tough to find
a lot of decision points in scoresheet, which I think is to some degree
of benefit. It means you canrun more teams at once, it means
you can have a more casual gamein season. But I do feel like
something of that is missing from thegame is would you agree, Yeah,

(01:04:39):
I agree that I think that's somethingwe've talked about this year just in general.
I think I think that definitely dependson the context that you're coming from,
right, because like if you're comingfrom Rhodo or something like that,
then scoresheet feels like there's a lotof lovers to pull in some ways.
I think Rhodo's waiver wire allows forcompulsion a little bit more that kind of

(01:05:02):
day to day Yeah, it's umroster machinations. But I guess my impression
of what you were talking about interms of lovers was more like in game
strategy or I guess like big pictureroster changes, trades and stuff like that.
Yeah, I think, to me, I feel like my ideal game
marries the two. Yeah, that'sjust reality or outside the park, I

(01:05:27):
guess, out of the park,right, and then it's impacted by the
current year, which out of thepark is not so the exit my ideal
game does not exist on the marketright now, I would say not yet,
not yet, But but you know, it was because I just watching

(01:05:47):
that and I was like, oh, this is just fun to me,
this type of game, and youknow, I don't know where I would
start, and somewhere in grace,I don't know, I did like we
watched we both watched a start inCrete. I feel like Crete was a
great place to spend your four hundreds. AD. Yeah, well that's I

(01:06:10):
mean, that's a stereotypical kind ofeurope universal. It's starting point, just
like an isolated place where you cantake over. Is that like starting risk
in Australia? It is. Yeah, it's Australia, And I guess,
yeah, just to declare for onepoint in Arli or not they're going to
get too deep into paradox interactive games. But these games they tend not to

(01:06:30):
be a say, specific winning condition. Um, like how in sieve there's
nowadays there's you know, six orseven ways you can win in this game.
You don't really win so much asyou get a start wherever you want
and sort of whatever province you want, and you can sort of make your
goal whatever you want it to be. Um, which, like I said,
that's what took me a little bitto get into it. But it's

(01:06:53):
kind of an interesting approach to agame. Same you know it it is.
It does feel like something when Ienjoy it. It is more in
the vein of baseball, like athing that watches over me without a like
specific goal in mind, possibly becauseI don't have a team that I root
for more or less, so Ijust kind of, you know it is.

(01:07:15):
I do kind of watch baseball aslike an observation World Builder kind of
scenario in general that I very littleimpact on. I guess Dared you had
more rooting interest, but also doesn'treally result in, like you set your
own goals in base That's what I'msaying. That's sir, so just to

(01:07:39):
keep from going crazy, yeah,but very compelling. I certainly recommend at
least watching UM. If this atall intrigues you, you can watch the
creaked opening or search for many atrue nerd um up imparadoor Rome on YouTube.

(01:08:08):
I highly recommend that as a introto the game UM and to give
it a try and maybe buy itfor us. I don't know. I'm
not gonna start up We're not gonnastart up Patreon, but we'll start to
go fund me for Ian to havenew video games. And as I as

(01:08:29):
I consumer video games, but notgames like these. I think that's fair
to say, right, Sure,I'm I'm interested by games like this.
I just feel like it's like Iwould play this game to play with you
guys, probably more than anything else. So and I I don't know.
I've told Jared a few times,like I'm willing to get into it.

(01:08:49):
It sounds like there's definitely a learningcurve though, so it's like, uh,
you know, Red, Like Ishould clarify, I do not know
how to play any of these games. I do play, though, I
just don't know how because there areso many systems. And yeah, the
learning curve to play it well isstaggering. I might someone who has not

(01:09:10):
advanced up that curve at all.It's I mean, like you can read
on these forms of people like tugging, like how many hundreds of hours you
have to play before you have likea basic grasp of what you're doing?
Interesting? It might be difficult,but yeah, yeah that sounds interesting.
It sounds like it's like the simson Supersteroids. Yeah, with a few

(01:09:35):
more like cheval Rick Knights mhmm,more death, slightly more incessed, depending
on how you want to play.I guess that's weird. Okay, yeah,

(01:09:56):
it definitely. Um, you definitelyhave to set up your own value
system and arrange it to the MiddleAges or um, you know, I
guess in this case, feudal oryou know, Republic of Rome and the
probably grace because certainly I would saysome of the some of the actions that

(01:10:19):
you take are not ideal for twentynineteen has chromatic Oh dear, I know
I would probably struggle with that.Yep, okay, okay, but you
don't have to. You just haveto pay the cost so you can you
can set the society you want,so you know there there is something interesting

(01:10:43):
to that as well. Um.Meanwhile, while we were building society,
Ben, you also had the bestthing that you saw this week, right,
Yeah. I wouldn't saw Hamilton inDetroit because that's the place that you
go if you live in suburban Michiganto see Hamilton. Um. I went
with my wife and her parents.It was it was great. I don't

(01:11:04):
I don't go to the theater aton. I probably am like on the
low end of the spectrum in termsof people that appreciate live theater. I
guess we could get into why thatprobably is if we wanted to, but
irrelevant. I really enjoyed it,and I think for me it was especially

(01:11:26):
gratifying because when Hamilton's first burst onthe scene and was, you know,
super popular, I was coaching collegeultimate frisbee, and a bunch of the
players on the team were super intoHamilton's. So I had heard the whole
soundtrack and a few of the songsa good several dozen times before I ever

(01:11:46):
wanted to, And so there arelike some things that I was familiar with,
but it was so much different seeingit in person. Of course.
You know, It's like I don'tthink I appreciated going into it, how
much more immersually have been entertaining,and you know, just awesome, how

(01:12:06):
much more awesome it would be toexperience it in person. So it was
great. So I encourage everybody togo. I also was thinking about this
in terms of like my daughter,because now this is how I think of
almost everything. It's like everything isreframed through this. And I don't know
if you remember, Jared, butwhen we were in grade school, I
think we went and saw lay Miss. Do you remember going to see ley

(01:12:30):
Miss? I do not. Wheredid we see it? Like Kennedy Center?
Yeah, maybe I don't remember whereit was, to be honest,
and it could have been that,it could have been that it wasn't when
we were in school together. ButI have this like lasting memory of seeing
ley Miss in grade school, andto me that marked ley Miss as like

(01:12:58):
the musical you know, like especiallyas like a kid that wasn't into musical
theater. L Miss was like thebe all end off for musicals because it
was the one that I most vividlyremembered seeing in person, that was like
the most impressive when I saw it, the one who's like songs I actually
still know a little bit of,despite you know, basically never going out

(01:13:23):
of my way to listen to LMSsongs. And I figured Hamilton has to
be that for like our kid's generation, right, Like, like it seems
like it's going to be not justa short term sort of thing, right,
It's going to be like an enduringthing. That's my sense of it.

(01:13:46):
I don't know, right, Ithink the same way Rant was,
but even more durable. Let's say, sure, well, I guess I
will have to defer to you becauseI don't know anything about Rand. They're
not going to pay it. That'slike Benny's a hero through Mark all right,

(01:14:10):
Sorry, getting all my rent hottakes. Out? Um, Yeah,
I saw, I know what youmean. I saw, And I
think I actually mentioned this on thepodcast once, so I will not tell
the story to bore any long timelisteners. But um, I saw Hamilton
relatively early on, which is abenefit of being in New York and interested

(01:14:33):
in theater. You know, Imissed it in the public theater, unfortunately,
but I did. I did getto see it with the original cast,
which was very fortunate. And Ialso got to see it cold without
having heard any of the songs.UM. How familiar were you with like
the personal history of Alexander Hamilton tendollar Bill Duel broad Strokes going in?

(01:14:59):
Yeah, you know, I think, I know, I probably knew a
little bit more than average, justbased on you know, me being interested
in history, but I had notread the biography and I was not okay,
I was. I was not superinto that. UM. And I
had also seen In The Heights andso I you know, I knew of
Lynn Manuel Miranda. I did likeIn The Heights, but I wasn't over

(01:15:23):
the moon about it, um.And you know, I saw it at
the point where it was already likemassively hyped. UM. But I think
before it hit the culture in thatsame way. And you know, walking
in like I don't know, there'sa little bit where there's so much expectation

(01:15:43):
on something and you're like, okay, impressed me show. Yeah, And
then I went there and I sawit and it was like magical. It
was transcendent, and I remember therewas a point I was like, I
just like tears came to my eye, Like I couldn't believe I like something
this beautiful existed in the world.And I will tell you exactly is when,

(01:16:12):
um it is when the Skylar Sistersare out there thinking about New York
and I was like, oh,this is this is amazing, this is
like legitimately. Um, that wasnow when I would have guessed that tears
came to your eyes, but no, it was, well, it's always
about how amazing New York is mybed, but now it's that combination of

(01:16:33):
like, uh, you know,I think Beyonce and US history just really
did it for me, um,because you know, it was just a
version of America that felt like itincluded me, you know, and I
say like not obviously, um,not a personal color, but you know,

(01:16:55):
my grandparents came over on a boatnot too long ago. You know,
the stories of America. Like I'mpretty late in the game on that,
and you know, I feel likethere are a lot of people in
America who don't like super appreciate beinghere, don't see it, you know,

(01:17:19):
don't see that as like and thethings I value as being important.
And sometimes it's hard to feel,you know, it's hard to feel like
an American when the phrase American istied up with so many things that are
you know, that feel intentionally designedto alienate you. And to have a

(01:17:45):
true American story and experience that helpsme understand it really was like a I
would say, the most American I'veever felt in that month. And that's
interesting. Yeah, it didn't.It didn't strike me in a patriotic way,

(01:18:10):
but I think that's probably my ownpersonal shortcoming, Like I don't.
I think it's just like a differencein the way that I think of my
patriotism or whatever. I don't know, whatever how you want to describe that.
Maybe patriotisms even the wrong word anyway, Yeah, interesting, Yeah,

(01:18:33):
And you know, I think liketime dulls the impact of even the greatest
of musicals. Sure, Like youknow, I think Lams was incredibly powerful
when it came out, and Iwould say, La midstill whole somehow,
but you know, eventually everything feelslike Harisel or you know that, and

(01:18:59):
I feel that happened to Hallton,like these songs are becoming standards, and
you know, I feel like onsome level it will not have the immediacy
that it does or like Rent,which feels like a museum piece at this
point, I wasn't such a fancontemporaneously, but like it struggles to hold

(01:19:20):
up. But you know, Ithink on some level, just I don't
know that it will impact other peoplethe way it did me then, But
like you said, I think it'sgoing to have a tremendous just this tremendous

(01:19:40):
like cultural dominance. I think itwill be the story of the aughts,
and you know, they some likeweaving an American tale. Eventually, the
movie will come out in a decade, and you know, substitute teachers will
put it on the same way.I watched seventeen seventy six the musical,

(01:20:04):
which is, by the way,pretty great. I highly recommend seventeen seventy
six. It is wacky, umthere and there there is a seventeen seventy
six call out by the way,in h Hamilton. So really yeah,

(01:20:26):
it's a combination of like musical theater, modern hip hop and like uh improv
and it was really like placed justright at the core of my being.
So I did appreciate that. Butyeah, again, like saying go to
Hamilton is almost tautological, like everyoneknows that, but it really is a
special thing, like if you arein the position where you can consider it.

(01:20:51):
Yeah, um, yeah, agreat Glen's seen it. Yeah,
I'm a terrible person. I ampolish. Have you have you heard any
of the soundtrack? I've actually avoidedit for the most part. I mean
I'm not going to say I've neverheard any bit of Hamworthoni that's not true,

(01:21:12):
but I mean partially intentionally, soI haven't listened to it, right,
I agree, you know, it'sinteresting, like the soundtrack was definitely
released in order to get the musicalin front of everybody, so I think,
you know, very intentionally it isa song opera, the same way
m le mass in order to beunderstandable end to end. So it's like

(01:21:35):
a complete experience that way. Butyeah, I am personally happy that I
did not see it. But Ithink Ben, like you said, I
think you can have experienced it andthen see it and still feels different.
Right. Well, yeah, andI guess maybe this is just me.
And again I'm fully willing to acceptthat I experienced musical theater much different than

(01:21:57):
others. But I don't think Igot the meaning from listening to the soundtrack
in any way the same like magnitudeas I did from like seeing the performance.
Yeah, I would say the samething, you know, having watched
or like the other order. Um, they stand alone. But yeah,

(01:22:21):
I do um, Jared, Ihope it comes to DC at some point.
It has, I'm kidding. Yeah, I mean, it's certainly you
know, um, it ain't cheapprobably anywhere, and it's definitely a decision

(01:22:41):
that you have to make. ButI do also concur it's pretty pretty great,
Jared. What musical do you recommendinstead? Guys and Dolls? Guys
and Dolls that's pretty solid too.I love Guys and Dolls so much.
No, I mean, I don'tknow, I haven't. Part of it
was the price part of it.It's just been so hyped that like,

(01:23:02):
I don't want to. I feellike if I saw it now, I
would not like it, and Idon't want to do that. Yeah,
I don't know how to mitigate that, but it's very it's very very tricky
um, because like it. Ithink it was one of the things that
actually stood up to it for me. But the hype at this point is
so it's so tough that I don'tknow that anything can withstand that. Yeah,

(01:23:28):
but um, you know if if, if you are in the right
frame of mind, I don't know. At some point, Um I do.
I do recommend seeing it on thesooner side, just again, like
to with the power of the momentjust dissipates over time. Yeah, that's
fair. Yeah, I think thoseconcerns or whatever that you were describing aren't

(01:23:50):
going to get better as time passes. So yeah, like like your hesitation
is only going to grow. It'slike, well, I guess it's okay
to say you're never gonna see itif that's I mean, I want to
see it, but also I don'twant to spend like two hundred dollars to
go in being like, oh,I'm just not gonna like this because it's
not as good as I wanted tobe. M Okay, Yeah, my

(01:24:16):
thoughts about that are too lengthy tocontinue to talk about. See you next
week and report back. Um,let's do all right, So, Jared,
what is the best thing you sawthis week. Oh man, we
can. That's all three of usstop for eight this week? Yes,

(01:24:38):
so we uh it's pass Over.We did our saders and pass Over is
my least favorite and most favorite holiday. I think least favorite and because I
can't eat anything, I like allthe stuff. I like the you can
a pass over it's awful when Ihate it. But the sad there's are
always a lot of fun. Andin particular our Sadiers because my brothers and
I have edited are hagatta Um.It's the blend of things that we like

(01:25:01):
in hagata Um. So it startsoff with a song to the theme of
the Muppet Show, and um mydad has introduced finger puppets into a couple
parts of the thing. So Imean we get like the good parts starts.
But yeah, it's like it's afun time. This year. This
year, we um, we actuallywandered around the desert, so like we

(01:25:24):
got up out of the table andwander around our house like we're water around
the jets. So it was fun. It was a good time. I
always like saders. I like thatyou lark your saders. We just ad
this year and I highly recommend it. Okay, anyway, I also really
like it because usually our stadiers arepretty like big saders and usually invite lots
of like nan jush people and justsort of shared with them. This year,

(01:25:45):
you know, for family stuff,we just kept it. We kept
it really small, which was fine, but it was nice to just type
I went together anyway. Um.The the other best part of the sader
is the food, because my momalways cooks really good food, and even
though pass they were as awful,the FRUGI makes the first couple of nights
are good. But this year wewere blessed to add some brisket courtesy of

(01:26:12):
Ben. So thank you Ben,who sent us brisket from Franklin, Austin.
And we've all been there in person, but I think we can all
attest that frozen and then reheated Franklinholds up. Yeah. I was gonna
say, like, it's surprisingly closeto what it's like having it at the
restaurant, right like like when Ifirst heard of this. So this is

(01:26:35):
the second time I've partaken of thecooked and then vacuum sealed and then recooked
or reheated I guess brisket. Likethe first time, I was like,
uh, it's so good. Thatlike, even if it weren't as good,
it would still be worth it.But it was better than I was
expecting. I don't know, wasthat your experience to Jared? Yeah,

(01:26:58):
no, I agree completely. Brisketis something that my family takes very seriously.
It has driven us apart. Mymom a couple of years ago made
two different kinds of brisket and Iliked one. My brother's like the other
version, and like, this issomething that comes up many times over the
course of the year about how Ilike the run brisket, Like it's a
brisket is a serious thing in myfamily. So we had it the first

(01:27:20):
night and there were zero complaints aboutthe brisket, which is just something that
does not happen in my family.We complain about everything. So I don't
know how it happened, but yes, everyone everyone liked it, and I
agree it held up really well.I was super worried and it was really
tasty. Yeah, there's an aspectto it, which is like Hamilton,

(01:27:40):
which is that when we all wentto Franklin barbecue it. If you have
not heard of it, you knowyou can google it. If you have
heard of it, you probably heardof the massive hype behind it, and
you're like, oh, this thingcannot possibly stand up to this level of
hype, like everyone telling you,oh, this is the best thing I
ever, and they were like,okay, well I'll prove it. Yeah.

(01:28:01):
And then when you go to thesethings that are massively hyped and they
turn out to actually be the bestthing ever, Yeah, it's like actually
exceed your expectations somehow. It's likemagic. You're like, oh yeah,
and like, you know, atleast the way Jared and I experienced it,
we were on a road trip throughTexas and we had spent the week

(01:28:26):
I won't say like exclusively, butmassively eating brisket, each one, you
know, better and better. Honestly, like where East Coast kids, this
was all the best brisket in ourlives, I think, right, yeah,
I mean Mom's brisket aside of course, yeah naturally, but yeah,

(01:28:47):
like without question. And then youknow you're like, well, how much
better can this be? Like whyare people waiting six and a half hours
for this brisket? And then yougo and you're like, oh, because
it's so much better everything else,which until today I thought was like mind
blowing. Yeah. I think it'sbecause I like food more than I like

(01:29:11):
musical theater, but Franklin's was definitelya bigger deal for me than Hamilton.
It was like, and the waythat I first experienced Franklins was like,
you're gonna get up freaking early ona Saturday because your buddy wants to do
this thing. And if we're beinghonest, the buddy that we're doing it
for is not known for having greatideas about stuff. So I was like

(01:29:31):
very skeptical and it turned out awesomeand it was like, Wow, that
was even better than I expected itwould be, which I guess was true
for Hamilton too, But I reallylike that parallels the fun parallel. Yeah.
And by the way, if youare ever going to Austin and you
are a meat eater, if youif you're a vegetarian, I am so

(01:29:54):
sorry there's nothing for you. Butif you if you are a meeting my
one Frankly barbecue hack, which isa little easier than it used to be,
just order online. Yeah, youwill spend too much. You will
get too much back. You canbring it back with you in a you

(01:30:15):
know, on the plane, butum, even spending too much on brisket
is not a ridiculous price for let'ssay, a nice meal anywhere else and
you just get to skip the line. I generally agree with that, but
I do think that there's something tothe line experience. And if you listen
to I don't even what podcast thatwas, you send us a podcast link

(01:30:38):
to Aaron Frankston actually talking about thiswith David Chang. Yeah, yeah,
he talks about it, but youknow, part of part of what he's
about is the like experience of beingthere and like the waiting in line and
being with the other people that arewaiting in line, and that that shared
experience aspect to it is definitely partof what he's about. So I guess

(01:31:04):
if you do order online, tryto go early enough that there's still going
to be people like outside waiting andmaybe just imagine what that is like.
Yeah, what I am about islife hacks well, And so I mean,
I totally agree with you that generallyit's a better use of your time
to order online. That's what Idid this time, but I didn't even

(01:31:27):
personally go and pick it up.I had I had help, fortunately from
somebody that was willing to go andpick it up for me. So I
didn't I'm very much a hypocrite inthis regard, but I think that like
part of the experience is that beingthere. But yeah, if you,
if you can have brisket, Ithink all three of us would highly recommend

(01:31:50):
in touring Coston and doing this oncein your life, making a pilgrimage.
Yeah, all right, anything else? Did we for everything this week?
Sure to join us again next weekor two weeks for whatever. This is

(01:32:11):
scoresy plus. We told you,we told you this was going to go
this way. Yeah uh, andit has um Email us your thoughts or
questions about your scoresy team Hamilton andor life at scores at Baseball Perspectives dot
com. We would love to hearfrom you. We'll definitely talk more about
baseball if we get more questions.Yeah, oh boy, that's either a

(01:32:33):
threat or a promise. That's verytrue. Why not both? All right?
On that note on behalf of BenMurphy and Jared Wise, I am
eating leftwitz. Thanks again, andhave a great day.