September 22, 2025 • 43 mins
Simone Mueller, MA is a certified dog trainer and dog behaviour consultant (ATN.AG) from
Germany.
She specializes in force-free anti-predation training and is the author of the two books of the
Predation Substitute Training series “Hunting Together” and “Rocket Recall”.
Simone is proud to be an Associate Trainer at the Scotland-based Lothlorien Dog Training Club
(AT-LDTC) and a member of both the Pet Professional Guild (PPG), the Pet Dog Trainers of
Europe (PDTE) and the Initiative of Force Free Dog Training.
Follow Simone’s work on Facebook and Instagram: #predationsubstitutetraining
Learn more: http://www.predation-substitute-training.com
Among what you will learn by listening:
What IS predation and what does it mean to have a dog with high prey drive?
What are some of the breed tendencies and how do they affect walking on a leash?
How does this relate to decompression? Do dogs with high prey drive need decompression?
What are some general tips when it comes to walking your dog?
To learn more about your host: Lisa Desatnik, CPDT-KA, FFCP, FDM, CPBC,
visit: www.SoMuchPETential.com. Follow So Much PETential on Facebook and Instagram.
If this episode is helpful, please considering LIKING and FOLLOWING it.
Thanks!
Germany.
She specializes in force-free anti-predation training and is the author of the two books of the
Predation Substitute Training series “Hunting Together” and “Rocket Recall”.
Simone is proud to be an Associate Trainer at the Scotland-based Lothlorien Dog Training Club
(AT-LDTC) and a member of both the Pet Professional Guild (PPG), the Pet Dog Trainers of
Europe (PDTE) and the Initiative of Force Free Dog Training.
Follow Simone’s work on Facebook and Instagram: #predationsubstitutetraining
Learn more: http://www.predation-substitute-training.com
Among what you will learn by listening:
What IS predation and what does it mean to have a dog with high prey drive?
What are some of the breed tendencies and how do they affect walking on a leash?
How does this relate to decompression? Do dogs with high prey drive need decompression?
What are some general tips when it comes to walking your dog?
To learn more about your host: Lisa Desatnik, CPDT-KA, FFCP, FDM, CPBC,
visit: www.SoMuchPETential.com. Follow So Much PETential on Facebook and Instagram.
If this episode is helpful, please considering LIKING and FOLLOWING it.
Thanks!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hi. This is Live's Touch by Pets, a podcast for
those who love and are loved by pets. I'm your host,
Lisa Desatnk. I'm a certified trainer with so much potential
in Cincinnati, Ohio. It is my goal that you will
find personal, relatable discussions and stories aim to inspire and educate.
(00:26):
I'm really glad that you're here. Welcome. If you have
a dog, you more than likely are wanting to walk
your dog. Walking your dog may even be a reason
you got your pet. At the same time, you probably
know if your pet is high prey drive, that activity
can be a real challenge.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
This episode is for you.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
I'm talking with an international expert on dog predation and
predation substitute training about this very subject. I have a
feeling you're going to find it very helpful. Simone Mueller
is a certified dog trainer and dog behavior consultant in Germany.
I am so excited to have her with us today.
(01:11):
I've taken her webinars, I've taken a course from her.
She is just wonderful and I'm really happy that I
can talk to her virtually in person today. She specializes
in force free anti predation training. And is the author
of two books of predation substitute training.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
What is That.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Her books are called Hunting Together and Rocket Recall. Simone
is proud to be an associate trainer at the Scotland
based Lothlorian Dog Training Club and a member of both
the Pet Professional Build and the Pet Trainers of Europe.
(01:55):
So let's get this started.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
And this is so exciting.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
I've seen you online, I've taken your class, I've seen
you in webinars. To be talking to you, that's personally
so exciting for me, and I'm gonna learn I think
it probably as much as the listeners are. So this
is really going to be a great topic I think
for a lot of people. Thank you so much for
(02:22):
joining me from Germany.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Yeah, thank you very much, Lisa for the invitation. I'm
so glad to be here and talk about my favorite topic.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
You know what, why don't we start with you talking
about you know? First of all, so many people talk
about their dogs being reactive and impulsive and oh my
dog doesn't listen to me when we're out and about.
I can't get them to focus or do anything that
I want. And he's pulling on the leash and going
in all these different directions, and I think what you're
(02:58):
going to talk about today is going to be really
helpful information for all these people. Why don't you talk
about yourself? First of all? Predation substitute training?
Speaker 1 (03:09):
What is it?
Speaker 2 (03:11):
That's a good question. So, yeah, predation substitute training is
I thought, it's quite an artificial term, but it describes
best what I do with when I. When I, when
I teach dogs not to chase and not to hunt,
we basically have to come up with something instead that
(03:33):
they can do because you cannot teach a dog not
to do something. So it's very hard to teach a
dog to stop and do nothing. So it's always a
better option, more easy option, to give them something to
do instead. And the thing with predatory behavior, I think
we will come to this later in our conversation, is
(03:56):
that our dogs grave to do it. It's so exciting
for them, so highly rewarding for them, and just asking
them not to do it this is, uh, it's hard,
and it's a little bit unfair and frustrating for them
and also for the owner of frustrating because the dog
will will do it, but then the other day not.
(04:20):
So yeah, so I thought about giving them something else
to do, something safe, something better, something that they can
do together with their.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Owner, which and I love your approach so positive. So Forstree,
it's just wonderful. What got you into this? Let's hear
your story, because there's always a story behind this, right, Yeah,
what inspired you exactly?
Speaker 2 (04:50):
And I think it's so common among us trainers or
dog professionals that we all started with this one partarticular
special dog that had such a big impact on you
that you chose a career in this field. And it
was the same for me my very first dog. That
(05:11):
I mean, we always had a family dog when I
was a kid, but then I had this first dog
who I was responsible for and I was still at UNI,
and everything was yeah, new to me, so I had
for the first time, I had to care about a
dog on my by myself, and I had to do
(05:32):
all the training and stuff like that, and I wanted
to do everything right from the beginning. So clicker training
was just the new big thing in dog training during
that time here in Germany, and I wanted to learn
everything about it. But then my dog, at the age
of two, she developed such a big prey drive that
(05:56):
it almost Yeah, I was almost close to desperation, basically
because I was able to walk her in the forest
because we live near a forest. Everything here is forest
or field, and I was able to work her when
she was a puppy, and it was also okay during adolescence.
(06:18):
But then when she hit almost maturity, this prede drive
came up and I didn't know how to deal with that.
And during that time, we didn't have a lot of
trainers here in my area, at least not so. We
had some dog training clubs where it could do agility
and obedience and stuff like that, but this didn't really help,
(06:42):
and everybody had a different tip for me. So I
went on the internet on some forums and everybody was
giving some advice, but it was so random and so
not connected to each other that it really didn't work
out for me and my dog during that time. And
(07:02):
this was the first time and I thought, oh my god,
we need a structured approach, something that really like a plan,
like a structured plan to get from A to B.
And this is where it all started. I started to
yeah to investigate predatory behavior in dogs. I read a
(07:24):
lot of books, I went to a lot of seminars.
We didn't have webinars at that time, but we had
seminars and it was all so interesting and yeah, eventually
I even decided why not become a doctrine of myself?
And she, or this particular dog, Malinka was her name.
(07:46):
She got me into dog training.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
In the end, she's responsible for this whole She's responsible.
Speaker 4 (07:54):
Yeah, that's so neat, yes, because so many people can
rely relate to that story and I love hearing that
and how you got into it.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
So when we talk about predation and what it means
to we have a high drive dog, what exactly are
you talking about with that?
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Oh yeah, that's actually a very good question. When you
think about it on a superficial level, it's like, oh
my god, my dog is chasing, chasing wildlife, chasing lives dog.
Some people, when they refer to predatory behavior, they also
mean that the dog is killing, for example, sheep or
scrolls or mice or something like this. But this is
(08:46):
just the tip of the iceberg, the thing that is
really visible and scary. So we always refer to that
when we talk about prey drive. But prey drive is
so much more than just chasing or killing, and the
the everyday problems, the struggles that you have in everyday
(09:07):
life with your dog. They are beneath the surface, and
these are the behaviors that come before the chase and
before the grab and kill bite. It comes, for example,
when dogs put their nose down on the ground and
follow a track and nothing can get them their attention back.
(09:29):
Or when you have a dog that is completely disconnected
from you when you when you walk out of the door,
so the moment they are in their environment where they
were bred. For for example, a spaniel, when you walk
them through bushes and undergrowth, they are completely lost in
(09:52):
their dog world. This automatically triggers their their innate hunting
drive and prey drive. Or when you have, for example,
a hound scent hound who is uh nose down and
then nothing else can get you back, so pulling the lead,
(10:14):
we have this this this pulling, we have the that
the dog is completely unapproachable forre you that you just
feel like the other end of the leash, who is
just flying somewhere behind your dog, stumbling behind your dog.
And these are the the struggles that people have in
(10:35):
in everyday life, but it's often the case that they
don't really realize that we're talking about prey drive. Here
they report leash pulling, not coming back, not listening. These
are the things that they google when they when they
go on Google. But actually the underlying problem here is
the prey drive. So we need to address not the
(10:57):
leash pulling. Of course we kind of pull us that too,
but first we need to address the predatory behavior.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
And when you talk about that, there's actually a sequence
to this predatory behavior too. Do you want to talk
a little bit about that? And you touched on how
hounds and spaniels what they're doing, you know, with their
noses and things, but some great specific identifiers to this
(11:32):
is a predatory kind of behavior.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Yeah. Sure. So the predatory sequence or the predatory motor
pattern that you're referring to is a term that was
developed by Professor Coppinger Raymond Coppinger and his wife Lorna.
They have written a wonderful book that never never gets old.
It's called Dogs Very Simple, and I would recommend this
(11:57):
to every dog lover, dog owner, dog professional to read
this at least once in your life. And he was
the first to try to put this very complex behavior
that consists of so many single individual behaviors. He tried
to put this into one structure and in order to
(12:20):
explain what is happening here. And this is what we
now call the predatory motor pattern or the predatory sequence.
And he described that wild caneites go through a certain
protocol when they hunt. So it all starts with orientation behavior.
Orientation means the dog goes out, feels hungry and looks
(12:45):
out for something to hunt and there might be something
or might not be something. This is the very first stage,
so that the wolf the dog is looking around, is
there something worth hunting? And this all orientation behavior was
what I was referring to when I said when you
have a dog that is, for example, completely switched off
(13:07):
when you when you walk out of the door. So
it already starts here. And the next step on this chain,
on this ladder is that when the let's talk about
wolves here, he is uh, he can make out something
to hunt, and then he gets into a stork what
(13:28):
we call a storg, which means that he get really
fixated on this prey animal. We have these maybe you
know this from documentaries where a predator sees spray where
they get really tense and arrow shaped and the eyes
are glued on this on this pray animal, and then
they try to get closer and sneak up and close
(13:49):
the distance between themselves and the prey animal. Because when
you are a wild predator and you don't have a
human to feed you, you have to calculate laid your energy,
the calories that you have available, and what comes next
is the chase, and the chase is really energy consuming.
This is why wild predators try to get as close
(14:11):
to their prey before they go into the chase to
get a good head start. And then when the wolf
is lucky and able to make prey, then what happens
is that they grab this other animal and they hold
on to this other animal to make sure the prey
is really dead before they start to dissect and eat.
(14:36):
And then the wolf or the lion or whatever wild
predators we have is not hungry anymore. So the predator
sequence has come to an end. And this is what
Corpinger described in his book as well for pet dogs
or for domesticated dogs. But he also observed that our
(14:57):
domesticated dogs, our breeds, they we do not show the
whole sequence anymore. Every wild wolf will go through this sequence,
but for our pet dogs this is not true. So
some of them were bred to sniff, for example the spaniels,
(15:18):
and this is because we humans wanted them to do
this job. So we extremely highlighted this part of the
predatory sequence through artificial breeding. So we basically took the
individuals who were very good at tracking or sniffing or
whatever and made it them so that we got in
(15:43):
the end dogs that are very good at one task
because we needed for our jobs that we do with
our dogs. So, for example, the retriever is super at
memorizing where the hunter shot birds from the sky and
where the birds hit the ground. And then eventually when
(16:05):
the hunter is done shooting, they run out, they pick
up the birds, and then they bring the bird back
in their mouth and they hold onto it for dear life.
They do not let it go and bring it back
through water and bushes and everything. So we have highlighted
for them memorizing where something fell off the sky and
(16:31):
holding on to prey. So this part of the PREYERATORI
motor pattern was highlighted in retrievers for example, in bloodhounds
for example, or any hounds that work with the nose,
we have highlighted a lot of tracking, so they are
specialists in tracking, because we wanted a dog for when
(16:55):
the hunter has made a shot but the animal is
not dead, is badly wounded, but still runs off. So
then we'd bring in the hound and we get him
on the trail of blood, and then he will follow
this trail through the woods, through the forest, and while
(17:16):
he is following the prey animal, he's supposed to bark
because the hunter wants to hear where the dog is.
Because we didn't have GPS on our dogs one hundred
years ago, so nowadays, our hounds are still the same
when they find an interesting trail, nose glued to the ground,
(17:36):
and off they go and they bark, bark, bark, barks.
So this is what owners report.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Oh my god, he.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
Sniffs trailing all the time. He's dragging me around and
he's barking a lot, And I say, yeah, that's his job.
That's exactly what we wanted this dog to do. Yeah.
So every dog now has specific tasks that they engage
in and they do not show the full sequence anymore.
(18:07):
So we have a lot of dogs that do not
stand and stalk and creep, but they see something and
they go into the chase immediately. They don't care about
the rest. And they also do not stop because when
you think about a calorie intake from a rabbit, for example,
(18:27):
a wolf at some point would aboard the chase and say, okay,
this has no sense anymore. The calories that are lost
here are much bigger than the amount of calories that
I will get from a from a rabbit. So he
will at some point be reasonable, as every wild animal
has to do and stop the chase. But our dogs, no,
(18:49):
they just do it for fun, so they they go
into the chase again and again and again. I have yeah,
I have met a dash hound in the forest that
belongs to our local hunter. And I was out with
my dogs and this little dashhound came across the trail
(19:13):
that I was walking with my dog, and a deer
was running in front of it. I could just hold
on to my dogs and see them both run by,
and then I knew this dog. So I phoned the
hunter and I said, I just saw your dog here
we are at the moment, and he said, oh, that's
good to know, because I've been looking for him for
two days. So no wild predator would hunt a deer
(19:39):
for two days. Doesn't make sense. But because we have
bred dash hounds to chase and to run and to
follow and to be persistent because we want them to
do that, and this is the reason why they can
do that for two days.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Yeah, you know. And it's so important too for people
understand that so that when they're looking at enrichment, they
can help their dog to get these biological needs. Matt,
I always look at that when we're working with different
types of dogs, and a lot of times those needs
aren't being fully met in.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
The whole, which can lead to a lot of stuff. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
But you know, even and so we could go down
lots of ran but holes and go in different directions,
you know, even when we play with our dog the
way that you know, they would go through that motor
sequence and things can impact that. But so let's talk
(20:43):
about too, because something that I thought was really interesting,
you know what, more than interesting, I thought it was
really valuable because I've experienced it too, and so I'm
looking forward to learning from this too, is the what
you call predation over arousal and talk about what that
(21:05):
is when that can occur, what can people do about that?
Speaker 5 (21:13):
Yeah, yeah, that's a hard topic.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Yeah, predatory or predation over a rouser. Predatory over rouser
is something which is quite common in these working breeds
because we have bred dogs that are basically alert and
ready to go hunting all the time. So when you
think about two hundred years ago or one hundred years ago,
(21:42):
even a hunter or a shepherd or anybody who was
working with dogs on a professional level, they they didn't
want to ask the dog, are you ready? So they
felt like, Okay, today I need to go hunting, or
I want to go hunting, or today I need to
move my sheep from AH to B. So I need
(22:04):
my dog to be ready. And this led to breeding
dogs who are ready all the time so that they
are available for us when we need them. And one
hundred years ago, our dogs were in cages, so they
lived in canals. Basically the dogs didn't live at home
(22:26):
with the family, so they were quite separate from everything
that was going on in the home. And of course
it's not I'm not promoting keeping dogs in cages and canals,
but I have to say these dogs did not have
a lot of stimuli, so they were in a rather
(22:48):
secluded area and when they came out, they were ready.
And today we have dogs that are still ready all
the time. But we don't have them in a a
in a separate area any more. We have them in
the families and they have this feeling of needing to
be ready all the time. So we see a lot
(23:09):
of dogs that do not rest enough because they always
need think they need to hurt the children or the
guinea pigs. Or we have dogs that are triggered by movements,
like the hunting dogs, by sounds, by sense of course.
(23:29):
And now what happens is when we take them out
into the environment. A lot of these dogs are already
stressed and overstimulated. So what do those dogs do. They
engage into something that feels pleasurable for them and that
feels like an outlet for all this stress. And this
(23:53):
is hunting behavior. So we see dogs that get out
and immediately start to snow i frantically, or follow a
track frantically, or chase everything that moves. And when I
have dogs in my training where I feel, okay, this
is not the normal range of prey drive for this dog.
(24:18):
So of course you are a working dog or you
have a working dog, you have to have some amount
of prey drive. But this is a little bit weird,
a little bit too much. I always start with a
background check, so I ask how many hours does your
dog sleep? Did you change something, do you have a
(24:40):
new puppy, a baby? What about kids in the home?
How often or how long is your dog left alone?
Is your dog good with being left alone or is
he anxious the whole day walking around waiting for you
to come back. This all contributes to the behavior outside.
(25:02):
And when we do not address the root courses, then
we can train and train and train on the outside
as much as we want and nothing will really change.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
I love that perspective, I really do. So many people think, well,
he just needs to get out, you know, and get
the energy out. It always brings me back to this story.
I work on sattle now a lot with dogs that
I work with, but a couple of years ago, the
(25:37):
German short hair pointer, he was about a year old,
and the more tired, and they exercised him a lot,
and the more tired he got, the more amped up
he got. And I called because of a behavior case
because they were all open down, their arms just bleeding,
(25:58):
you know. They couldn't get him to settle. And so
that's one thing. We spent a whole hour and I
actually have a video of the last five minutes of
me just working on teaching him to be able to
turn off, and he was sleeping by the end of
the hour, and from that moment on when he got
really tired, he could go to the bed and sleep
(26:20):
and he couldn't do that before, and it made it
huge difference. So yeah, I'd love that you pointed that out.
Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. So the
reality for people that have a high prey drive dog,
a dog that experienced that you know, has these really
(26:43):
high tendency needs. Talk about walking their dog. You know,
everybody wants to walk their dog and take their dog
to cafes and and bring them to parks and busy
environments and things.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
Talk about the.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Reality of that and walking a dog that has these tendencies.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
Yeah, here you have to there is no blanket advice unfortunately. Yeah,
we are. We have a lot of time here on
the conversation, so I think it makes sense to go
a little bit more into into details so that everybody
can take out what they need for their dog. So,
first of all, we have to distinguish between reactivity and
(27:30):
prey drive. For reactivity, when I when I when I say, okay,
reactivity normally mean that the dog is anxious or let's
call it aggressive, but there is more behind that. Let's
call it aggressive towards people, children, other dogs, bikes, stuff
(27:51):
like that. Okay, so when you have a reactive dog,
of course you do not do them a big favor
when you take them to a cafe. So, how ever,
at dogs with high prey drive tend to be a
bit special. So of course we have dogs who are
both reactive and high prey drive. So this is a
special and very complicated case. Then, but when we only
(28:14):
have high prey drive in a dog, let's say, for example,
in a pointer, in a setter, in a typical hunting dog,
they are often pretty good with people. The hunting breeds
are often quite friendly. Think about black bar doors that goes.
They are the extreme or friendly. They don't have much
(28:36):
a problem when they meet children or people or something
like that. And for them, it can be quite good
to take them to places where there are people because
they don't have a problem with people. But however, in
these locations we hardly ever have wildlife. So yeah, a
lot of my clients they can take their hunting dogs
(28:58):
to cafes to part, and they are pretty good there
because they do not have those constant wildlife triggers like
scents or tracks or remains or residues of animals and
stuff like that, like like like pool or something or feathers,
and they are better in these areas. Yeah, So you
(29:23):
always have to to make this calculation what does my dog,
what bothers my dog, or what is my dog good with? Yeah?
But still of course, when you, for example, think of
a park where there are a lot of squirrells, so
this can can be the opposite effect, to be honest,
(29:44):
because squirrels and critters in general that turn up swiftly
and out of the blue and closely to to Normally,
a squirrel is much closer so then a deer. All
these are massive triggers for dogs. And when you have
(30:05):
this day after day after day after day, your dog
is on a level of arousal that is skyrocketing, so
there is not much time in between the next visit
to fully calm down again. And then we have a
dog that is always on hyper and high alert. So
here I would not recommend to take the dog to
(30:27):
the park when there are squirrels and everywhere, for.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
Example, okay, all right, and Helms, you know, somebody wants
to walk their dog in lluslation, not have their dogs
sniff at everything.
Speaker 5 (30:42):
Oh yeah, congratulations.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
So the decompression element to for a walk, And I
know I want to address that too, because I think
that's so important. And I talked about that always, you know,
and with finished working or doing anything, and you talked
about pastor versus active decompression, talk about that and with
(31:19):
with these you know dogs that tend to be more
in the hype drive.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Yeah, yeah, so for them it is important that they
have the opportunity to run it out of their system.
This does not mean that they don't have to sleep.
So we basically people both but I always compare this
to us humans. We are either active or passive stress types.
(31:48):
So I am a passive stress type. When I'm done here,
we finished the conversation, it's already evening, so I will
go to sleep, definitely, because this has been I have
been up all day and I have this appointment here
with you, and I maybe was a little bit nervous
in the beginning. It was a little bit stressful in
(32:08):
a positive way, but still stressful. So I need to
sleep afterwards. Maybe somebody else who is an active stress
type things, Oh my god, I've been sitting all day,
I need to go for a run. Yeah, I have
never felt that urge in my whole life to go
for a run. So I'm not an active stress type.
(32:29):
But our dogs with high prey drive, they are made
for physical movement and for yeah, movement in general, so
most of them tend to be active stress types. So
when they experienced something where they had to use a
lot of impulse control, had to hold themselves back, or
(32:49):
something was stressful for them, they need to run it
out of their system. And here it's really important to
realize that taking the dogs for a walk on a
two meda leache is not running it out for the dogs.
So it doesn't match their movement type, their movement pattern,
(33:10):
their natural gate, their natural the natural Yeah, how do
you say it in English? The Oh gosh, I'm lost
for one word. Could you say tempo in English?
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Speed?
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Sorry? That the next of course, I was thinking of
the word in in in German. So it doesn't match
their natural speed. And and it is very important for
getting your head cleared that you can, yeah, that you
can move in your own speed and and gate, and
(33:51):
and and and movement patterns. And this is why I
always recommend to dogs that pull on leash and are
really stressed and hyper that they need to have the
possibility at least two times a week, better three times
a week to be in an area where they can yeah,
walk in their own pace and there sometimes you really
(34:16):
need to become creative and and and get go out
and find these places for your dog, because you're doing
them and yourself a huge favor if you find such
a place for your dog. This can be. It can
be a dog park, but I would only visit the
dog park when there are no other people or not
a lot of other people. But this could also be.
(34:38):
For example, I have one client with a setter and
here is allowed to use the area of a company
of a of a big factory after the production is finished.
So he has the key. They have a nice fence
around the area. It's fence and they he can enter
(34:59):
a six o'clock and he can have his dog off
leash in this area. So he asked the manager and
the manager said, oh yeah, this is a win win situation.
Because I often work over time and then when I
sit in my office and nobody's here anymore, and I
look out of the window, I see this beautiful dog.
I feel really happy. So yeah, basically, people are often
(35:24):
open when you ask them for a favor for your
own dog. And yeah, you just need to be to
become creative and find a spot where a dog can
just be a dog. This is so important.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
I love that. I you know, I do a lot
of work with with dogs of behavior issues. And my
dog also it can be, you know, react pretty big
when he sees the big dog. So we look for
places and always tell people, you know, if you're Yeah,
if you look around, you can say, oh, look there's
a big e been grassy area on the other side
(36:02):
of that parking lot, or you know, just be very
very creative. There are streets and my neighborhood. We're not
going to see a whole lot of dogs. We see
a lot of geese. And I actually do the search
game that has gotten us past the geese. Now that's
really fun for Dawson. But yeah, be creative and look around.
(36:28):
So what do you think?
Speaker 2 (36:30):
What would you say like some.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
Very general first steps for somebody that has a dog
in this category.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
Yeah, So the first thing really is go and find
an opportunity for your dog with a dog can just
be a dog and take your dog there two times
a week, better three times a week. And then the
next big thing that you need to work on, and
it's really crucial, is teach your dog that they can
have a break when they're outside, because this is a
(37:04):
totally new concept for so many dogs that actually, we
can stay in this place, we can sit down here
on a bench, we can eat some treats, we can
maybe even lay down. And for a lot of dogs,
this is something mind blowing. They're like, no, we don't
(37:25):
have time for that. I cannot eat, I cannot take
a treat. I have to go forward, forward, forward, always
at the end of the leash. And this is something
that I teach my dogs this from puppyhood. So when
I take my puppies outside, we take breaks. We take
breaks every ten minutes every log that I see, I
(37:45):
sit down on the log, I scatter some treats or
sometimes even just sit there until my dogs lay down.
And yeah, so this is something that I really teach
my dogs from the beginning. But even when you have
a grown dog, you can still teach this to them.
And it's so important because no dog in the world
(38:09):
will be yeah, will be ready and able to come
back to you when you call them, when they cannot
even take the time to to to pause. So when
when they always have this perception in their mind it
has to go forward forward, we have to move on,
move on, move on. Why should they take the time
(38:32):
to turn around and come back to you. So it's
it's something that we have to teach them, and this
is the very first step. And using food here is crucial,
not to bribe them or something, not even to reward
them at that stage. It's because the act of chewing
(38:54):
and licking and swallowing and taking the time to either
treat is intrinsically calming. So this this comes from the
time when we were fed by the mom what's it
called in English? So when when when we we're all mammals,
(39:17):
and every mammal has intrinsic multi pressure to to chew
and to to lick and stuff. Because this is connected
from the very beginning with calmness and yeah, and and
and being safe. And this is a feeling of calmness
(39:39):
that that is created in the dog when they finally
are able to choose something outside and even when chewing
is not possible, I give them a tube with something
liquid that they can lick, and then eventually, when they
have licked a couple of times, they are able to
take a solid treat. So eating is something that we
always start with it. It's the first question I asked
(40:02):
any client, is your dog able to take treats outside?
And I so often hear nope, I don't need.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
Yeah, oh I love that too. It's settling and turning
off as something I work on with all you know,
dogs and puppies too. I think that's just so important.
People just take for granted. Oh you know, my dog,
when he's tired, he can.
Speaker 2 (40:27):
Go over there and lay down.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
But we're talking about something different about being able to
actually turn off. So yeah, oh my gosh. We covered
so much ground and there's so much valuable information. Thank
you so much for being here with me today. This
is really great. I really appreciate it, and I have
(40:49):
a feeling that a lot of people are going to
take a lot of this information and benefit from it,
So thank you. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
I really hope that there are some new idea or yeah, yeah,
but what you could do with your dog to help
them a little bit so thank you for the invitation
and for this opportunity.
Speaker 1 (41:08):
Lisa, Sure, and I want to mention that you do
do courses and webinars so for people to learn more
about this, and you're also on social media because you
do fantastic work with dogs with predatory predatory substitution training.
(41:31):
So yeah, well thank you, and yeah, maybe we'll have
you on again in the future. Another.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
Yeah, so if somebody wants to learn more, you're always
welcome to have a look at social media. As you said,
I'm yeah, my most favorite platform these days is Instagram,
but I'm also on Facebook, and of course on my
web site there are all the courses and there is
also we talked a lot about loose niche walking or
(42:06):
dogs to pull on diach. I have a webinar about that,
it's called Walking Together. I also have a book on this,
which is called Walking Together, available on Amazon, but the
webinars are available from my website. And if you want
to know more about predatroid behavior, the best starting point
is either my book Hunting Together or my course PST Principle.
(42:31):
So these two cover the basic information and already for
the first games that you can start straight away with
your dog so we cover all the important things that
you need when you when you want to start training
straight away, because I always feel when I hear something new,
(42:53):
I want to try this out. I want some real
practical stuff.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
So yeah, great, I'll have a length get to your
website and the show notes too, so everybody look at
the show notes. Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this episode,
please consider subscribing to my podcast, Come back often and
tell your friends.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
If I can be of.
Speaker 1 (43:15):
Any help to you and your pet, please reach out
to me via my website www dot somuchpotential dot com
and for a lot more information, fun and videos, please
follow me so Much Potential on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube.
(43:39):
See you soon,
Hi. This is Live's Touch by Pets, a podcast for
those who love and are loved by pets. I'm your host,
Lisa Desatnk. I'm a certified trainer with so much potential
in Cincinnati, Ohio. It is my goal that you will
find personal, relatable discussions and stories aim to inspire and educate.
(00:26):
I'm really glad that you're here. Welcome. If you have
a dog, you more than likely are wanting to walk
your dog. Walking your dog may even be a reason
you got your pet. At the same time, you probably
know if your pet is high prey drive, that activity
can be a real challenge.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
This episode is for you.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
I'm talking with an international expert on dog predation and
predation substitute training about this very subject. I have a
feeling you're going to find it very helpful. Simone Mueller
is a certified dog trainer and dog behavior consultant in Germany.
I am so excited to have her with us today.
(01:11):
I've taken her webinars, I've taken a course from her.
She is just wonderful and I'm really happy that I
can talk to her virtually in person today. She specializes
in force free anti predation training. And is the author
of two books of predation substitute training.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
What is That.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Her books are called Hunting Together and Rocket Recall. Simone
is proud to be an associate trainer at the Scotland
based Lothlorian Dog Training Club and a member of both
the Pet Professional Build and the Pet Trainers of Europe.
(01:55):
So let's get this started.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
And this is so exciting.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
I've seen you online, I've taken your class, I've seen
you in webinars. To be talking to you, that's personally
so exciting for me, and I'm gonna learn I think
it probably as much as the listeners are. So this
is really going to be a great topic I think
for a lot of people. Thank you so much for
(02:22):
joining me from Germany.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Yeah, thank you very much, Lisa for the invitation. I'm
so glad to be here and talk about my favorite topic.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
You know what, why don't we start with you talking
about you know? First of all, so many people talk
about their dogs being reactive and impulsive and oh my
dog doesn't listen to me when we're out and about.
I can't get them to focus or do anything that
I want. And he's pulling on the leash and going
in all these different directions, and I think what you're
(02:58):
going to talk about today is going to be really
helpful information for all these people. Why don't you talk
about yourself? First of all? Predation substitute training?
Speaker 1 (03:09):
What is it?
Speaker 2 (03:11):
That's a good question. So, yeah, predation substitute training is
I thought, it's quite an artificial term, but it describes
best what I do with when I. When I, when
I teach dogs not to chase and not to hunt,
we basically have to come up with something instead that
(03:33):
they can do because you cannot teach a dog not
to do something. So it's very hard to teach a
dog to stop and do nothing. So it's always a
better option, more easy option, to give them something to
do instead. And the thing with predatory behavior, I think
we will come to this later in our conversation, is
(03:56):
that our dogs grave to do it. It's so exciting
for them, so highly rewarding for them, and just asking
them not to do it this is, uh, it's hard,
and it's a little bit unfair and frustrating for them
and also for the owner of frustrating because the dog
will will do it, but then the other day not.
(04:20):
So yeah, so I thought about giving them something else
to do, something safe, something better, something that they can
do together with their.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Owner, which and I love your approach so positive. So Forstree,
it's just wonderful. What got you into this? Let's hear
your story, because there's always a story behind this, right, Yeah,
what inspired you exactly?
Speaker 2 (04:50):
And I think it's so common among us trainers or
dog professionals that we all started with this one partarticular
special dog that had such a big impact on you
that you chose a career in this field. And it
was the same for me my very first dog. That
(05:11):
I mean, we always had a family dog when I
was a kid, but then I had this first dog
who I was responsible for and I was still at UNI,
and everything was yeah, new to me, so I had
for the first time, I had to care about a
dog on my by myself, and I had to do
(05:32):
all the training and stuff like that, and I wanted
to do everything right from the beginning. So clicker training
was just the new big thing in dog training during
that time here in Germany, and I wanted to learn
everything about it. But then my dog, at the age
of two, she developed such a big prey drive that
(05:56):
it almost Yeah, I was almost close to desperation, basically
because I was able to walk her in the forest
because we live near a forest. Everything here is forest
or field, and I was able to work her when
she was a puppy, and it was also okay during adolescence.
(06:18):
But then when she hit almost maturity, this prede drive
came up and I didn't know how to deal with that.
And during that time, we didn't have a lot of
trainers here in my area, at least not so. We
had some dog training clubs where it could do agility
and obedience and stuff like that, but this didn't really help,
(06:42):
and everybody had a different tip for me. So I
went on the internet on some forums and everybody was
giving some advice, but it was so random and so
not connected to each other that it really didn't work
out for me and my dog during that time. And
(07:02):
this was the first time and I thought, oh my god,
we need a structured approach, something that really like a plan,
like a structured plan to get from A to B.
And this is where it all started. I started to
yeah to investigate predatory behavior in dogs. I read a
(07:24):
lot of books, I went to a lot of seminars.
We didn't have webinars at that time, but we had
seminars and it was all so interesting and yeah, eventually
I even decided why not become a doctrine of myself?
And she, or this particular dog, Malinka was her name.
(07:46):
She got me into dog training.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
In the end, she's responsible for this whole She's responsible.
Speaker 4 (07:54):
Yeah, that's so neat, yes, because so many people can
rely relate to that story and I love hearing that
and how you got into it.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
So when we talk about predation and what it means
to we have a high drive dog, what exactly are
you talking about with that?
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Oh yeah, that's actually a very good question. When you
think about it on a superficial level, it's like, oh
my god, my dog is chasing, chasing wildlife, chasing lives dog.
Some people, when they refer to predatory behavior, they also
mean that the dog is killing, for example, sheep or
scrolls or mice or something like this. But this is
(08:46):
just the tip of the iceberg, the thing that is
really visible and scary. So we always refer to that
when we talk about prey drive. But prey drive is
so much more than just chasing or killing, and the
the everyday problems, the struggles that you have in everyday
(09:07):
life with your dog. They are beneath the surface, and
these are the behaviors that come before the chase and
before the grab and kill bite. It comes, for example,
when dogs put their nose down on the ground and
follow a track and nothing can get them their attention back.
(09:29):
Or when you have a dog that is completely disconnected
from you when you when you walk out of the door,
so the moment they are in their environment where they
were bred. For for example, a spaniel, when you walk
them through bushes and undergrowth, they are completely lost in
(09:52):
their dog world. This automatically triggers their their innate hunting
drive and prey drive. Or when you have, for example,
a hound scent hound who is uh nose down and
then nothing else can get you back, so pulling the lead,
(10:14):
we have this this this pulling, we have the that
the dog is completely unapproachable forre you that you just
feel like the other end of the leash, who is
just flying somewhere behind your dog, stumbling behind your dog.
And these are the the struggles that people have in
(10:35):
in everyday life, but it's often the case that they
don't really realize that we're talking about prey drive. Here
they report leash pulling, not coming back, not listening. These
are the things that they google when they when they
go on Google. But actually the underlying problem here is
the prey drive. So we need to address not the
(10:57):
leash pulling. Of course we kind of pull us that too,
but first we need to address the predatory behavior.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
And when you talk about that, there's actually a sequence
to this predatory behavior too. Do you want to talk
a little bit about that? And you touched on how
hounds and spaniels what they're doing, you know, with their
noses and things, but some great specific identifiers to this
(11:32):
is a predatory kind of behavior.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Yeah. Sure. So the predatory sequence or the predatory motor
pattern that you're referring to is a term that was
developed by Professor Coppinger Raymond Coppinger and his wife Lorna.
They have written a wonderful book that never never gets old.
It's called Dogs Very Simple, and I would recommend this
(11:57):
to every dog lover, dog owner, dog professional to read
this at least once in your life. And he was
the first to try to put this very complex behavior
that consists of so many single individual behaviors. He tried
to put this into one structure and in order to
(12:20):
explain what is happening here. And this is what we
now call the predatory motor pattern or the predatory sequence.
And he described that wild caneites go through a certain
protocol when they hunt. So it all starts with orientation behavior.
Orientation means the dog goes out, feels hungry and looks
(12:45):
out for something to hunt and there might be something
or might not be something. This is the very first stage,
so that the wolf the dog is looking around, is
there something worth hunting? And this all orientation behavior was
what I was referring to when I said when you
have a dog that is, for example, completely switched off
(13:07):
when you when you walk out of the door. So
it already starts here. And the next step on this chain,
on this ladder is that when the let's talk about
wolves here, he is uh, he can make out something
to hunt, and then he gets into a stork what
(13:28):
we call a storg, which means that he get really
fixated on this prey animal. We have these maybe you
know this from documentaries where a predator sees spray where
they get really tense and arrow shaped and the eyes
are glued on this on this pray animal, and then
they try to get closer and sneak up and close
(13:49):
the distance between themselves and the prey animal. Because when
you are a wild predator and you don't have a
human to feed you, you have to calculate laid your energy,
the calories that you have available, and what comes next
is the chase, and the chase is really energy consuming.
This is why wild predators try to get as close
(14:11):
to their prey before they go into the chase to
get a good head start. And then when the wolf
is lucky and able to make prey, then what happens
is that they grab this other animal and they hold
on to this other animal to make sure the prey
is really dead before they start to dissect and eat.
(14:36):
And then the wolf or the lion or whatever wild
predators we have is not hungry anymore. So the predator
sequence has come to an end. And this is what
Corpinger described in his book as well for pet dogs
or for domesticated dogs. But he also observed that our
(14:57):
domesticated dogs, our breeds, they we do not show the
whole sequence anymore. Every wild wolf will go through this sequence,
but for our pet dogs this is not true. So
some of them were bred to sniff, for example the spaniels,
(15:18):
and this is because we humans wanted them to do
this job. So we extremely highlighted this part of the
predatory sequence through artificial breeding. So we basically took the
individuals who were very good at tracking or sniffing or
whatever and made it them so that we got in
(15:43):
the end dogs that are very good at one task
because we needed for our jobs that we do with
our dogs. So, for example, the retriever is super at
memorizing where the hunter shot birds from the sky and
where the birds hit the ground. And then eventually when
(16:05):
the hunter is done shooting, they run out, they pick
up the birds, and then they bring the bird back
in their mouth and they hold onto it for dear life.
They do not let it go and bring it back
through water and bushes and everything. So we have highlighted
for them memorizing where something fell off the sky and
(16:31):
holding on to prey. So this part of the PREYERATORI
motor pattern was highlighted in retrievers for example, in bloodhounds
for example, or any hounds that work with the nose,
we have highlighted a lot of tracking, so they are
specialists in tracking, because we wanted a dog for when
(16:55):
the hunter has made a shot but the animal is
not dead, is badly wounded, but still runs off. So
then we'd bring in the hound and we get him
on the trail of blood, and then he will follow
this trail through the woods, through the forest, and while
(17:16):
he is following the prey animal, he's supposed to bark
because the hunter wants to hear where the dog is.
Because we didn't have GPS on our dogs one hundred
years ago, so nowadays, our hounds are still the same
when they find an interesting trail, nose glued to the ground,
(17:36):
and off they go and they bark, bark, bark, barks.
So this is what owners report.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Oh my god, he.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
Sniffs trailing all the time. He's dragging me around and
he's barking a lot, And I say, yeah, that's his job.
That's exactly what we wanted this dog to do. Yeah.
So every dog now has specific tasks that they engage
in and they do not show the full sequence anymore.
(18:07):
So we have a lot of dogs that do not
stand and stalk and creep, but they see something and
they go into the chase immediately. They don't care about
the rest. And they also do not stop because when
you think about a calorie intake from a rabbit, for example,
(18:27):
a wolf at some point would aboard the chase and say, okay,
this has no sense anymore. The calories that are lost
here are much bigger than the amount of calories that
I will get from a from a rabbit. So he
will at some point be reasonable, as every wild animal
has to do and stop the chase. But our dogs, no,
(18:49):
they just do it for fun, so they they go
into the chase again and again and again. I have yeah,
I have met a dash hound in the forest that
belongs to our local hunter. And I was out with
my dogs and this little dashhound came across the trail
(19:13):
that I was walking with my dog, and a deer
was running in front of it. I could just hold
on to my dogs and see them both run by,
and then I knew this dog. So I phoned the
hunter and I said, I just saw your dog here
we are at the moment, and he said, oh, that's
good to know, because I've been looking for him for
two days. So no wild predator would hunt a deer
(19:39):
for two days. Doesn't make sense. But because we have
bred dash hounds to chase and to run and to
follow and to be persistent because we want them to
do that, and this is the reason why they can
do that for two days.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Yeah, you know. And it's so important too for people
understand that so that when they're looking at enrichment, they
can help their dog to get these biological needs. Matt,
I always look at that when we're working with different
types of dogs, and a lot of times those needs
aren't being fully met in.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
The whole, which can lead to a lot of stuff. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
But you know, even and so we could go down
lots of ran but holes and go in different directions,
you know, even when we play with our dog the
way that you know, they would go through that motor
sequence and things can impact that. But so let's talk
(20:43):
about too, because something that I thought was really interesting,
you know what, more than interesting, I thought it was
really valuable because I've experienced it too, and so I'm
looking forward to learning from this too, is the what
you call predation over arousal and talk about what that
(21:05):
is when that can occur, what can people do about that?
Speaker 5 (21:13):
Yeah, yeah, that's a hard topic.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Yeah, predatory or predation over a rouser. Predatory over rouser
is something which is quite common in these working breeds
because we have bred dogs that are basically alert and
ready to go hunting all the time. So when you
think about two hundred years ago or one hundred years ago,
(21:42):
even a hunter or a shepherd or anybody who was
working with dogs on a professional level, they they didn't
want to ask the dog, are you ready? So they
felt like, Okay, today I need to go hunting, or
I want to go hunting, or today I need to
move my sheep from AH to B. So I need
(22:04):
my dog to be ready. And this led to breeding
dogs who are ready all the time so that they
are available for us when we need them. And one
hundred years ago, our dogs were in cages, so they
lived in canals. Basically the dogs didn't live at home
(22:26):
with the family, so they were quite separate from everything
that was going on in the home. And of course
it's not I'm not promoting keeping dogs in cages and canals,
but I have to say these dogs did not have
a lot of stimuli, so they were in a rather
(22:48):
secluded area and when they came out, they were ready.
And today we have dogs that are still ready all
the time. But we don't have them in a a
in a separate area any more. We have them in
the families and they have this feeling of needing to
be ready all the time. So we see a lot
(23:09):
of dogs that do not rest enough because they always
need think they need to hurt the children or the
guinea pigs. Or we have dogs that are triggered by movements,
like the hunting dogs, by sounds, by sense of course.
(23:29):
And now what happens is when we take them out
into the environment. A lot of these dogs are already
stressed and overstimulated. So what do those dogs do. They
engage into something that feels pleasurable for them and that
feels like an outlet for all this stress. And this
(23:53):
is hunting behavior. So we see dogs that get out
and immediately start to snow i frantically, or follow a
track frantically, or chase everything that moves. And when I
have dogs in my training where I feel, okay, this
is not the normal range of prey drive for this dog.
(24:18):
So of course you are a working dog or you
have a working dog, you have to have some amount
of prey drive. But this is a little bit weird,
a little bit too much. I always start with a
background check, so I ask how many hours does your
dog sleep? Did you change something, do you have a
(24:40):
new puppy, a baby? What about kids in the home?
How often or how long is your dog left alone?
Is your dog good with being left alone or is
he anxious the whole day walking around waiting for you
to come back. This all contributes to the behavior outside.
(25:02):
And when we do not address the root courses, then
we can train and train and train on the outside
as much as we want and nothing will really change.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
I love that perspective, I really do. So many people think, well,
he just needs to get out, you know, and get
the energy out. It always brings me back to this story.
I work on sattle now a lot with dogs that
I work with, but a couple of years ago, the
(25:37):
German short hair pointer, he was about a year old,
and the more tired, and they exercised him a lot,
and the more tired he got, the more amped up
he got. And I called because of a behavior case
because they were all open down, their arms just bleeding,
(25:58):
you know. They couldn't get him to settle. And so
that's one thing. We spent a whole hour and I
actually have a video of the last five minutes of
me just working on teaching him to be able to
turn off, and he was sleeping by the end of
the hour, and from that moment on when he got
really tired, he could go to the bed and sleep
(26:20):
and he couldn't do that before, and it made it
huge difference. So yeah, I'd love that you pointed that out.
Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. So the
reality for people that have a high prey drive dog,
a dog that experienced that you know, has these really
(26:43):
high tendency needs. Talk about walking their dog. You know,
everybody wants to walk their dog and take their dog
to cafes and and bring them to parks and busy
environments and things.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
Talk about the.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Reality of that and walking a dog that has these tendencies.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
Yeah, here you have to there is no blanket advice unfortunately. Yeah,
we are. We have a lot of time here on
the conversation, so I think it makes sense to go
a little bit more into into details so that everybody
can take out what they need for their dog. So,
first of all, we have to distinguish between reactivity and
(27:30):
prey drive. For reactivity, when I when I when I say, okay,
reactivity normally mean that the dog is anxious or let's
call it aggressive, but there is more behind that. Let's
call it aggressive towards people, children, other dogs, bikes, stuff
(27:51):
like that. Okay, so when you have a reactive dog,
of course you do not do them a big favor
when you take them to a cafe. So, how ever,
at dogs with high prey drive tend to be a
bit special. So of course we have dogs who are
both reactive and high prey drive. So this is a
special and very complicated case. Then, but when we only
(28:14):
have high prey drive in a dog, let's say, for example,
in a pointer, in a setter, in a typical hunting dog,
they are often pretty good with people. The hunting breeds
are often quite friendly. Think about black bar doors that goes.
They are the extreme or friendly. They don't have much
(28:36):
a problem when they meet children or people or something
like that. And for them, it can be quite good
to take them to places where there are people because
they don't have a problem with people. But however, in
these locations we hardly ever have wildlife. So yeah, a
lot of my clients they can take their hunting dogs
(28:58):
to cafes to part, and they are pretty good there
because they do not have those constant wildlife triggers like
scents or tracks or remains or residues of animals and
stuff like that, like like like pool or something or feathers,
and they are better in these areas. Yeah, So you
(29:23):
always have to to make this calculation what does my dog,
what bothers my dog, or what is my dog good with? Yeah?
But still of course, when you, for example, think of
a park where there are a lot of squirrells, so
this can can be the opposite effect, to be honest,
(29:44):
because squirrels and critters in general that turn up swiftly
and out of the blue and closely to to Normally,
a squirrel is much closer so then a deer. All
these are massive triggers for dogs. And when you have
(30:05):
this day after day after day after day, your dog
is on a level of arousal that is skyrocketing, so
there is not much time in between the next visit
to fully calm down again. And then we have a
dog that is always on hyper and high alert. So
here I would not recommend to take the dog to
(30:27):
the park when there are squirrels and everywhere, for.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
Example, okay, all right, and Helms, you know, somebody wants
to walk their dog in lluslation, not have their dogs
sniff at everything.
Speaker 5 (30:42):
Oh yeah, congratulations.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
So the decompression element to for a walk, And I
know I want to address that too, because I think
that's so important. And I talked about that always, you know,
and with finished working or doing anything, and you talked
about pastor versus active decompression, talk about that and with
(31:19):
with these you know dogs that tend to be more
in the hype drive.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Yeah, yeah, so for them it is important that they
have the opportunity to run it out of their system.
This does not mean that they don't have to sleep.
So we basically people both but I always compare this
to us humans. We are either active or passive stress types.
(31:48):
So I am a passive stress type. When I'm done here,
we finished the conversation, it's already evening, so I will
go to sleep, definitely, because this has been I have
been up all day and I have this appointment here
with you, and I maybe was a little bit nervous
in the beginning. It was a little bit stressful in
(32:08):
a positive way, but still stressful. So I need to
sleep afterwards. Maybe somebody else who is an active stress
type things, Oh my god, I've been sitting all day,
I need to go for a run. Yeah, I have
never felt that urge in my whole life to go
for a run. So I'm not an active stress type.
(32:29):
But our dogs with high prey drive, they are made
for physical movement and for yeah, movement in general, so
most of them tend to be active stress types. So
when they experienced something where they had to use a
lot of impulse control, had to hold themselves back, or
(32:49):
something was stressful for them, they need to run it
out of their system. And here it's really important to
realize that taking the dogs for a walk on a
two meda leache is not running it out for the dogs.
So it doesn't match their movement type, their movement pattern,
(33:10):
their natural gate, their natural the natural Yeah, how do
you say it in English? The Oh gosh, I'm lost
for one word. Could you say tempo in English?
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Speed?
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Sorry? That the next of course, I was thinking of
the word in in in German. So it doesn't match
their natural speed. And and it is very important for
getting your head cleared that you can, yeah, that you
can move in your own speed and and gate, and
(33:51):
and and and movement patterns. And this is why I
always recommend to dogs that pull on leash and are
really stressed and hyper that they need to have the
possibility at least two times a week, better three times
a week to be in an area where they can yeah,
walk in their own pace and there sometimes you really
(34:16):
need to become creative and and and get go out
and find these places for your dog, because you're doing
them and yourself a huge favor if you find such
a place for your dog. This can be. It can
be a dog park, but I would only visit the
dog park when there are no other people or not
a lot of other people. But this could also be.
(34:38):
For example, I have one client with a setter and
here is allowed to use the area of a company
of a of a big factory after the production is finished.
So he has the key. They have a nice fence
around the area. It's fence and they he can enter
(34:59):
a six o'clock and he can have his dog off
leash in this area. So he asked the manager and
the manager said, oh yeah, this is a win win situation.
Because I often work over time and then when I
sit in my office and nobody's here anymore, and I
look out of the window, I see this beautiful dog.
I feel really happy. So yeah, basically, people are often
(35:24):
open when you ask them for a favor for your
own dog. And yeah, you just need to be to
become creative and find a spot where a dog can
just be a dog. This is so important.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
I love that. I you know, I do a lot
of work with with dogs of behavior issues. And my
dog also it can be, you know, react pretty big
when he sees the big dog. So we look for
places and always tell people, you know, if you're Yeah,
if you look around, you can say, oh, look there's
a big e been grassy area on the other side
(36:02):
of that parking lot, or you know, just be very
very creative. There are streets and my neighborhood. We're not
going to see a whole lot of dogs. We see
a lot of geese. And I actually do the search
game that has gotten us past the geese. Now that's
really fun for Dawson. But yeah, be creative and look around.
(36:28):
So what do you think?
Speaker 2 (36:30):
What would you say like some.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
Very general first steps for somebody that has a dog
in this category.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
Yeah, So the first thing really is go and find
an opportunity for your dog with a dog can just
be a dog and take your dog there two times
a week, better three times a week. And then the
next big thing that you need to work on, and
it's really crucial, is teach your dog that they can
have a break when they're outside, because this is a
(37:04):
totally new concept for so many dogs that actually, we
can stay in this place, we can sit down here
on a bench, we can eat some treats, we can
maybe even lay down. And for a lot of dogs,
this is something mind blowing. They're like, no, we don't
(37:25):
have time for that. I cannot eat, I cannot take
a treat. I have to go forward, forward, forward, always
at the end of the leash. And this is something
that I teach my dogs this from puppyhood. So when
I take my puppies outside, we take breaks. We take
breaks every ten minutes every log that I see, I
(37:45):
sit down on the log, I scatter some treats or
sometimes even just sit there until my dogs lay down.
And yeah, so this is something that I really teach
my dogs from the beginning. But even when you have
a grown dog, you can still teach this to them.
And it's so important because no dog in the world
(38:09):
will be yeah, will be ready and able to come
back to you when you call them, when they cannot
even take the time to to to pause. So when
when they always have this perception in their mind it
has to go forward forward, we have to move on,
move on, move on. Why should they take the time
(38:32):
to turn around and come back to you. So it's
it's something that we have to teach them, and this
is the very first step. And using food here is crucial,
not to bribe them or something, not even to reward
them at that stage. It's because the act of chewing
(38:54):
and licking and swallowing and taking the time to either
treat is intrinsically calming. So this this comes from the
time when we were fed by the mom what's it
called in English? So when when when we we're all mammals,
(39:17):
and every mammal has intrinsic multi pressure to to chew
and to to lick and stuff. Because this is connected
from the very beginning with calmness and yeah, and and
and being safe. And this is a feeling of calmness
(39:39):
that that is created in the dog when they finally
are able to choose something outside and even when chewing
is not possible, I give them a tube with something
liquid that they can lick, and then eventually, when they
have licked a couple of times, they are able to
take a solid treat. So eating is something that we
always start with it. It's the first question I asked
(40:02):
any client, is your dog able to take treats outside?
And I so often hear nope, I don't need.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
Yeah, oh I love that too. It's settling and turning
off as something I work on with all you know,
dogs and puppies too. I think that's just so important.
People just take for granted. Oh you know, my dog,
when he's tired, he can.
Speaker 2 (40:27):
Go over there and lay down.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
But we're talking about something different about being able to
actually turn off. So yeah, oh my gosh. We covered
so much ground and there's so much valuable information. Thank
you so much for being here with me today. This
is really great. I really appreciate it, and I have
(40:49):
a feeling that a lot of people are going to
take a lot of this information and benefit from it,
So thank you. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
I really hope that there are some new idea or yeah, yeah,
but what you could do with your dog to help
them a little bit so thank you for the invitation
and for this opportunity.
Speaker 1 (41:08):
Lisa, Sure, and I want to mention that you do
do courses and webinars so for people to learn more
about this, and you're also on social media because you
do fantastic work with dogs with predatory predatory substitution training.
(41:31):
So yeah, well thank you, and yeah, maybe we'll have
you on again in the future. Another.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
Yeah, so if somebody wants to learn more, you're always
welcome to have a look at social media. As you said,
I'm yeah, my most favorite platform these days is Instagram,
but I'm also on Facebook, and of course on my
web site there are all the courses and there is
also we talked a lot about loose niche walking or
(42:06):
dogs to pull on diach. I have a webinar about that,
it's called Walking Together. I also have a book on this,
which is called Walking Together, available on Amazon, but the
webinars are available from my website. And if you want
to know more about predatroid behavior, the best starting point
is either my book Hunting Together or my course PST Principle.
(42:31):
So these two cover the basic information and already for
the first games that you can start straight away with
your dog so we cover all the important things that
you need when you when you want to start training
straight away, because I always feel when I hear something new,
(42:53):
I want to try this out. I want some real
practical stuff.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
So yeah, great, I'll have a length get to your
website and the show notes too, so everybody look at
the show notes. Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this episode,
please consider subscribing to my podcast, Come back often and
tell your friends.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
If I can be of.
Speaker 1 (43:15):
Any help to you and your pet, please reach out
to me via my website www dot somuchpotential dot com
and for a lot more information, fun and videos, please
follow me so Much Potential on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube.
(43:39):
See you soon,
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