June 30, 2024 • 25 mins
Guest: Dr. Jill E Sackman, DVM, PhD
owner, Animal Behavior Consultants of Michigan
Dr. Sackman is a board-certified diplomate, American College of Veterinary Behaviors; and a board
certified diplomate of the American College of Veterinary Surgeons. She is the owner of Animal Behavior Consultants of Michigan, PLC where she practices an approach to behavioral medicine that combines learning theory, skilled medical training, and experience along with compassion and effective communication to create an integrated treatment plan that is tailored to the individual patient’s needs. Prior to starting her private practice, Dr. Sackman spent several years in research and development at Johnson & Johnson where she led a team of veterinarians and engineers in developing cutting-edge medical products. She is sought after internationally as a speaker on behavior.
Among what you will learn in this episode:
What is a veterinary behaviorist and how is a veterinary behaviorist different from a regular vet
When would it be a good time to be referred to or seek the assistance of a veterinary behaviorist
What are some of the reasons why physiology can impact aggression,
anxiety, guarding
What signs should someone be looking for to indicate an underlying physiology problem
You can learn more about Dr. Sackman and how she can help at https://www.animalbehaviormi.com/
Learn more about your host Lisa Desatnik, CPDT-KA, FFCP, FDM, CPBC, at
www.SoMuchPETential.com.
owner, Animal Behavior Consultants of Michigan
Dr. Sackman is a board-certified diplomate, American College of Veterinary Behaviors; and a board
certified diplomate of the American College of Veterinary Surgeons. She is the owner of Animal Behavior Consultants of Michigan, PLC where she practices an approach to behavioral medicine that combines learning theory, skilled medical training, and experience along with compassion and effective communication to create an integrated treatment plan that is tailored to the individual patient’s needs. Prior to starting her private practice, Dr. Sackman spent several years in research and development at Johnson & Johnson where she led a team of veterinarians and engineers in developing cutting-edge medical products. She is sought after internationally as a speaker on behavior.
Among what you will learn in this episode:
What is a veterinary behaviorist and how is a veterinary behaviorist different from a regular vet
When would it be a good time to be referred to or seek the assistance of a veterinary behaviorist
What are some of the reasons why physiology can impact aggression,
anxiety, guarding
What signs should someone be looking for to indicate an underlying physiology problem
You can learn more about Dr. Sackman and how she can help at https://www.animalbehaviormi.com/
Learn more about your host Lisa Desatnik, CPDT-KA, FFCP, FDM, CPBC, at
www.SoMuchPETential.com.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hi.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
This is Lives Touched by Pets, a show for those
who love and are loved by pets.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
I'm your host, Lisa D.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Sadnek, a certified trainer with so much potential in Cincinnati, Ohio.
I am so glad that you're here.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Welcome.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
As part of my own dog training, I work on
a lot of behavior cases pets experiencing big emotions that
result in fears, anxiety, distance increasing behaviors. With these, I
may collaborate with my clients veterinarian or refer to a
veterinary behaviorist. So educating pet parents about the value of
(00:46):
including a veterinary behaviorist in our support plan is really
important to me.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Today.
Speaker 4 (00:53):
I'm thrilled to have with me a veterinary.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
Behaviorist to whom I have referred clients. Doctor Jill Sackmans
respective internationally. She's a Board certified Diplomat of the American
College of Veterinary Behaviors and a Board Certified Diplomat of
the American College of Veterinary Surgeons. She's the owner of
Animal Behavior Consultants of Michigan. You are going to learn
(01:19):
a lot today. This is a great discussion, Jill. This
is so great to see you today.
Speaker 4 (01:26):
I'm really glad that we're here talking about this. So
many people can benefit, and I think there's such a
misunderstanding and lack of knowledge about what a veterinary behaviorist
is and how people can benefit from that. So I'm
hoping this is going to be super helpful for a
whole lot of people out there. So I appreciate you
(01:49):
taking the time to talk today.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Lisa. I'm delighted to be here. It's really exciting to
have the opportunity to work with folks like yourself are
so in tune to behavioral challenges that pets have and
pots of certain family and situations have, and many times
families pet caretakers just don't know where to go to
(02:14):
get help, or they may be completely overwhelmed with what's
on the Internet and they don't know how to sort
through what's important what's not important. So hopefully we can
gover some of those things today.
Speaker 4 (02:26):
Speaking of Internet, there's so much out there, and I
can see that can be very confusing to a lot
of people.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
I he're fairly frequently when I'm meeting with the new
clients that they don't know what you know, where to
go for information. They've often done research, but it may
have been research that it's taken them down the wrong
pathway and this conflicting information, and then of course friends
and family weigh in on what's worked for them, and
(02:56):
they come in just completely overwhelmed on what's to think,
deal work to believe?
Speaker 4 (03:01):
Yeah, And so often when I'm working on a behavior case,
there is a some sort of a medical issue going
on in underlying current that it can be addressed and
that can really help with the process. So so important.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
I think it is an area that is it's time
to really highlight. I guess I would say, is that pain,
medical disability, you know, not feeling well from a gastritestinal problem,
the deritial logic problem, the skin infection, irritation. Neurologic or orthopedic
(03:38):
problems are incredibly important in both behavior change. So if
I see a behavior that's been stable in a dog
suddenly increase, That's where I'm going. Or if I see
a dog who has had no other signs of anxiety
or fear suddenly not wanting to do things, I'm thinking
(04:00):
orthopedic neurologic. And that is something that folks should know
is important because that's why you would seek out a
veterinarian who has specialized in behavior because we look at
these in a very integrated way and looking at health data,
doing a physical exam, evaluating for pain. It's part of
(04:23):
how we work with clients. So yeah, absolutely critically important.
Speaker 4 (04:28):
And I found we're kind of jumping ahead, but that's okay.
I feel that that's perfectly fine, and we're going to
get into what exactly is a veterinary behaviorist. But I
love this. So one thing, you know, when we talk
about analyzing pain, the dog may hide things or may
have some aggression issues, fear based issues, anxiety when they
(04:52):
go into the VAT, so I can see where it's hopeful.
A lot of times I recommend that to clients that
they take videos and have videos to share.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Videos are fantastic because you're right. A couple of things
can happen in a exam room. And as a better behaviorist,
our exam rooms are usually bigger, more spacious than an
exam room, say in a general practice might be. So
I may have more space, but I still don't see
(05:24):
that dog trot up and down them all way or
go up and downstairs, so I might see them jump
up or struggle to get up and off the couch
or how they sit in the room can be helpful
to me. But videos, if I am not able to
appreciate something in the room, videos are really really helpful,
particularly if the family can say, hey, I've been seeing
(05:46):
my dogs struggle in this environment. You know, to make
a video. Technology is so abcessible today, isn't it. You know,
maybe fifteen years ago it could have done that, but
really super helpful.
Speaker 4 (05:58):
Okay, let's back up a little bit and let's explain
to people what is a veterinary behaviorist.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
Well, veterinary behaviorists is an individual who has started their
career out as a licensed veterinarian, so they would have
gone through most veterinarians, I have a four year bachelor's degree.
Often in the science areas, they have a four year
degree from an accredited veterary in medical school, and then
(06:26):
most of the time before they start a residency in behavior,
they've already been practicing in a university or practicing in
a private practice setting for a number of years, so
they come in with a lot of experience as a
medically trained or surgically trained veterineerian. Myself, I actually have
(06:47):
had a multiple career switches, and I started off having
done a residency and boarded surgery and practice surgery for years,
both in academia and an industry, which is how I
ended up up in Cincinnati, but decided I really wanted
to go back into client contacting, working with pets and
love training well behavior and the residency requires a pretty
(07:12):
big commitment. You need a mentor or two. Sometimes folks
have two mentors who are already diplomats or boarded by
the American College of Vetterary Behaviorists, and in that program,
it's very well structured to the College of Veterary Behaviorists
that you see cases with your mentor, and then after
(07:35):
you've reached a certain point, that mentor has to review
every single case you see, so you're getting feedback and
red ink on all sorts of stuff and alternative thoughts
on how to treat or how to follow up the cases.
Over four hundred cases we have to see mentored during
a residency, which if you're really really quick at it,
(07:55):
you get it done in three to four years. The
more people take a little longer than that. Clinical cases
you are rotating if you haven't done it already, rotatingnything
like a dermatology, rotation, intereral medicine, radiology, to making sure
you're up to date on the latest approaches to treating
or advanced medical conditions. You have to structure and conduct
(08:18):
and write up and publish a research paper. Many people
present it as well at a national meeting. You have
case reports case report that has to get published as well,
so that's like a really what you'd feel is a
very representative case that demonstrates your knowledge around diagnostics and
treatment of a particular behavioral problem. And then you get
(08:42):
to sit the boarding exam. So the first part takes
your credentialing and then there is a two day formal
boarding exam that you take to be able to set
You're a diplomat of the American College of Better your Behaviors,
so it really is the most you know, I'm gonna
(09:03):
say advance and all as far as access to information,
we the undanded. We cover all species during our residency training.
So I had to be tested on birds. I am.
I love birds, but I am not in any way
an expert on avian medicine, but I had that. I
had to do zoo animals. I have horses and do
(09:24):
some horsework too. So we get horses and production animals,
so that's all part of your examination and of veterinary behaviors.
The reality I like to think of as in terms
of being a nary psychiatrist because I think we deal
with mental health issues and animals, and I really start
using that language with clients just to see how people respond.
(09:48):
And I've actually gotten very favorable response to that because
we are equivalent to a human psychiatrist because we integrate
We have a medical degree and we integrate medicine and
medical problem was in with behavioral problems and the use
of medication and other diagnostic treatments. So anyway, about one hundred.
Speaker 4 (10:08):
Of us in the world very much assured it. Yeah,
I think.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
We're getting I'm on the exam committee and we have
probably more and we definitely have more exam takers this
year than ever, which is really exciting. So hopefully we'll
see more folks with the certification. Currently there's not a
very behaviors in every state in the United States unfortunately yet.
Speaker 4 (10:29):
Yeah, and that makes it tricky then to find somebody
makes a.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Tricky sometimes and then knowing when should you call in
or ask for help wants or ask your regular veterinarian
for help or when should I think Honestly, if I
were to look at my practice, probably a half to
two thirds of live referrals come either self referral or
(10:54):
from really good traders and another third to me the
yeah with veterinarians, So they ways people get to us
is quite varied, which is different than if you went
to seek out a carreologist. Right, nice, I know I've
referred to you. Yeah, anyway, that's yeah, that's kind of
(11:17):
an a nut. Well maybe not, maybe I was a
little too long, but.
Speaker 4 (11:21):
Where you know what a lot wird analogy. Yeah, of view,
when the mental health and the psychiatrist, I think that's
great because we really are. We're dealing with mental health
issues and some also physiological things that are going on
that are impacting behavior. You know, sometimes I go into
(11:43):
a case and people just want their dog trained, and
you look and you see there's a lot going on
here with that dog that we need to address differently,
and in order to have some success, we need to
address those underlying issues that are going on. And to
be clear, then people, there's a difference between the veterinary
(12:05):
behaviors and going to see your vets. So You're not
replacing the VAT. It's a whole another whole specialty.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
Yeah, Lisa, it would be we are in a group
of veterinarians. They would be in the specialty college under
the ABMA American Betterny Medical Association, which means that we're
individual student's gone through advanced training in a specific area
to become board certified. So it would look very much
like if you went to a board certified dermatologist or
(12:37):
an internist for diabetes assistance. Suit. But we work collaboratively
with general practicing veterinearians, so I am the stopping point
for folks to help solve complex problems with behaviors. They
still go to the regular general practice for general practice
medical care. I work really closely with the general practice
(12:59):
community to help both them identify and treat. I don't
have to see every behavior issue, right There are some
that are relatively straightforward that I want them and hope
that they do treat or they can consult with me.
I have a lot of folks that will call a
text or email me or anybody think about this, or
(13:19):
I've tried this and it's not working. What do you
think is next? And the other area that I work
very collaboratively with veterinarians is in we have a lot
of pets, cats and dogs, but I've probably seen more dogs.
Would love to see more cats too, for these problems,
and that is fear based behaviors or fear based aggression
in the veterinary office where the pet can't receive care
(13:42):
because they're an anxiety and fear is so high they
can't touched or handled by the family or the veterinarian staff.
So that's another Sometimes that's the only reason people come
to me for is how do I get my pet
in the door to be able to be touched and
handled and treated, and that bus there's a lot of
anxiety on both sides. What if my pat tore a
(14:05):
nail or was hit by a car and I can't
if the men no one can handle them.
Speaker 4 (14:11):
So when would somebody all reach out to a veterinary
behaviorist versus going to their regular bat.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Well, you know, there's a variety of reasons. I think
that in one area it would be sometimes these a referral.
Sometimes the veterinarian will say, hey, I think we've done
all we can. You need to see a specialist. Those
are great that might be a case where that veterinarian
has tried something already and it's not working. There's been
(14:42):
a relapse of behavior, it's gotten more severe, there's a bite,
so behaviors have gotten worse, and there's a direct referral
or suggestion from the veterinarian. So that's an easy one.
So when you feel like you've run out of options
with the situation that you're working with, there will be
other options where I'll have There are many primary care
(15:03):
veterinarians who are not comfortable with, or do not want
to treat behavioral problems or can't they don't have time.
I'll tell you right off it that most veterinary schools
either do not have training for veterinarians of the curriculum
in veterary behavior or it's an elected course. Ohio's great,
(15:27):
and you've got to you got a colleague of mine
is a great behavior some faculty there. Michigan does not
have a veterinary behavior se faculty. So and that's just
kind of state by state. So a lot of veterinarians
get onto practiceing well, I don't understand these medications. I've
never been trained to identify behavior problem. I'm only try something,
(15:47):
but I'm really uncomfortable about it, So that would be
another reason someone should reach out if they're veterinarian. Either
does it feel comfortable with it or it says, you know,
I don't do this because it's not what I've been
trained to do. And then I see people reach out
on their own. I get people who say I need
more help because I'm not making progress. So there was
(16:09):
a bite in the home, and that's I'm the first
stop because they get on the internet and I see
a lot of cases that come in through folks like yourself, Lisa,
where you're working with a pet and you go like, wow,
there's been a bite in the home. There's a lot
of fear here. We've been working on aggression toward dogs
a leashwalks for a year. We're not making more unpress
(16:31):
They're too explosively angry or upset. There's too much fear
associated with a loud noises and we have to have
some a different evaluation. So if they're coming in from
follies of mind and who are in the training community,
it's usually because they can't. They don't seem to be able,
They've reached a plateau. They can't seem to progress with
(16:51):
the behavior is significant enough. You know, I feel like
the really good trainers like yourself know right off they go,
we're gonna work together, but you need to see the
behaviors first, and that's usually if the anxiety fear aggression
is significant.
Speaker 4 (17:09):
Yeah, and there are also times where we get the
sense that maybe it's better to have someone with more
the more advanced knowledge about the physiology side of it
and how that relates to behavior. And you also have
a much more in depth knowledge about the different medications,
(17:30):
and so there's just lots of benefits. So it's like
any specialty, because this is all I do every day,
right if I'm going to it'd be probably if you
or I went into.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
It interness or a GP and we ask them for
help with behavior medication. You know, they do a bazillion things.
And I'm so in all of people to do that
because I get the opportunity to focus in one area.
And when I get the opportunity with focus one area,
I start to really understand the lovers and dials of medication,
(18:03):
when it works, when it doesn't work, which to choose,
which and not to And there's that's kind of the
art I guess of practicing. So it's like there's certain
amount of book knowledge you learn when you're boarded, but
then there's also the knowledge of working with it. So
that's another good reason to refer. And as you mentioned,
the knowledge of the medications A most veterinarians do not
(18:24):
get that training in school at all, so help with
understanding which drug to use when if it's slide effects.
There's a lot of misinformation about medication and out there, Lisa,
which makes me sad when I see a family come
in and say, well, we weren't given being your medication
because we were told it increases aggression or it all
(18:47):
clause my dog to go to pidney failure. It's like
that's almost worse than no information in my book.
Speaker 4 (18:54):
Yeah, I don't want my dog seeming like he's drugged
or oh that's another one, and I yeah, either do
I that's not my goal.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
I'm not an anesthesiologist. So if you want to by
sleep all day, I got to get you to a
different specials.
Speaker 4 (19:08):
So I always tell people, you know what, all the
people that I've referred to back to their veterinarian or
vetinary behaviorists and really encourage them when they've had hesitancy
about the medication. First, I share my own personal story
with my dog and how that's really changed. But I've
(19:29):
seen so many times, because I do so many behavior cases,
how that can make a humongous difference. And I've never
ever heard anybody say I should never have done that.
What I hear over and over and over again is
why did I not do that? Sooner? Suddenly now their
dog can play, their dog can relax, their dog can
(19:53):
just enjoy life, and anxiety can take such big bandwidth
in their brain.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
We're not good learners slumber anxious all the time, are we.
It's helpful to think about a dog's anxiety or cat
it comes that initial panic in fear and rage or anger,
because I do think dogs experience all of those comes
from a very old part of our brain. So we
share that they don't put a lot of the creatrial cortex,
(20:20):
like gee, I'm gonna worry about getting in the airplane
when I go on to my long trip like subber
to California. So we start getting they I don't think
that they think that far that they feared anxiety and
arousal level, that that feeling is very similar to what
we have ourselves because it's it's also what keeps us alive.
(20:41):
So I it's a balance, isn't it. It's I tell
folks you know that fear and anxiety is what makes
you run fast away from danger, keeps you alive. So
that's some Unfortunately, some animals have a lot more of
that's more quickly actively.
Speaker 4 (20:56):
Yeah, GI issues or no, we could do a whole
thing on the GI issues and how that relates to questions.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
Look, got on medical pain. Some of the most painful
dogs I've been, the ones that have been the hardest,
have been the most aggressive. That sometimes families don't understand
how big a role that plays. And I also think
sometimes general practice veterinarians speaking again, and I'm not focused
(21:26):
in on the behavioral response of the dog, they can
underestimate how many dogs are painful and how pain plays
out in irritable behavior.
Speaker 4 (21:37):
I was just thinking today, you know, I'm a I'm
a huge pickle ball player, pickball huge pickleball player. I
had an injury about four months ago, and I had
a tough time get staying off the courts. But it's
gotten point. I finally got help, and so they're saying, yeah,
(21:58):
you need to take time off. But what I was
thinking about is that when I it was in paying,
it really changed my game because I think you're not
even thinking about it, but you're afraid to run for
balls because you're afraid of what that pain is going
to be like. So you have memory of that, and
(22:18):
that's probably gonna even when I heal, it's gonna that
pain memory is going to be with me.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
The guarden, aren't you.
Speaker 4 (22:27):
Yeah, you know, I think about that type of analogy
when we're talking about pets too, is if you've got
an injury, you're going to be very protected.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
That's so true and not an area we're talking about today,
But that's a huge, huge air apor horses because riding
and saddle fitting and bridle and shoeing, if you know,
the or the bigges problems at but you know, any
animal that uses themselves athletically going to even be harder.
(22:59):
I think I have actually seen a number of dogs
who are performance dogs agility tracking, and these families owners
are really attuned to how the dog is working. Many times,
look whereas maybe a family that like might it missed
for a while, but they're noticing, you know, like they
missed that jump a little bit, or there's they're not
(23:21):
quite right out of the wheatfoles, and I think that
pain and then pain cs into noise and sound sensitivity
gets amplified, and there's a lot of subtlety to this,
like you've described right, that may just start by dropping performance,
slowing at times, slowing a willingness to do something. I
(23:43):
encourage folks listening to us today to think about that
and make sure that they're asking their veterinarian to look
at medical and pain related or orsopedic or neurologic pain
related problems. We could just spend a full hour talking
about some cases I seen, and.
Speaker 4 (24:03):
I would love to do that. Yeah, and even the
GI stuff. That's kind of a hot issue for me
right now. So definitely would love to have you back
and have another discussion for people. That would be great. Well,
I so much appreciate you being here today.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
Oh it's been a delight, Lisa, Thanks for having me.
Speaker 4 (24:25):
Sure sure, So we're going to have your information on
how people connect can connect with you in the show notes,
So we really appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
I am always happy to, you know, answer emails. I
practice primarily in the state of Michigan. Detroit, Aura, Grand Rapids,
and Traverse City. But I do see cases also in
northern Ohio, and I consult with clients and they're referring
veterinarians across the United States and in Canada, so that way,
(24:56):
I usually work with the local veterinarian, but I see
client cases all over. So please if folks have questions
or I can put you in touch with another better
behaviors in their area too.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Thanks for listening.
Speaker 5 (25:08):
If you enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing to my podcast,
Come back often and tell your friends. If I can
be of any help to you and your pet.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
Please reach out.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
To me via my website www dot so much potential
dot com and for a lot more information, fun and videos,
please follow me so Much Potential on Facebook, Instagram and YouTube.
(25:41):
See you soon,
Hi.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
This is Lives Touched by Pets, a show for those
who love and are loved by pets.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
I'm your host, Lisa D.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Sadnek, a certified trainer with so much potential in Cincinnati, Ohio.
I am so glad that you're here.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Welcome.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
As part of my own dog training, I work on
a lot of behavior cases pets experiencing big emotions that
result in fears, anxiety, distance increasing behaviors. With these, I
may collaborate with my clients veterinarian or refer to a
veterinary behaviorist. So educating pet parents about the value of
(00:46):
including a veterinary behaviorist in our support plan is really
important to me.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Today.
Speaker 4 (00:53):
I'm thrilled to have with me a veterinary.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
Behaviorist to whom I have referred clients. Doctor Jill Sackmans
respective internationally. She's a Board certified Diplomat of the American
College of Veterinary Behaviors and a Board Certified Diplomat of
the American College of Veterinary Surgeons. She's the owner of
Animal Behavior Consultants of Michigan. You are going to learn
(01:19):
a lot today. This is a great discussion, Jill. This
is so great to see you today.
Speaker 4 (01:26):
I'm really glad that we're here talking about this. So
many people can benefit, and I think there's such a
misunderstanding and lack of knowledge about what a veterinary behaviorist
is and how people can benefit from that. So I'm
hoping this is going to be super helpful for a
whole lot of people out there. So I appreciate you
(01:49):
taking the time to talk today.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Lisa. I'm delighted to be here. It's really exciting to
have the opportunity to work with folks like yourself are
so in tune to behavioral challenges that pets have and
pots of certain family and situations have, and many times
families pet caretakers just don't know where to go to
(02:14):
get help, or they may be completely overwhelmed with what's
on the Internet and they don't know how to sort
through what's important what's not important. So hopefully we can
gover some of those things today.
Speaker 4 (02:26):
Speaking of Internet, there's so much out there, and I
can see that can be very confusing to a lot
of people.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
I he're fairly frequently when I'm meeting with the new
clients that they don't know what you know, where to
go for information. They've often done research, but it may
have been research that it's taken them down the wrong
pathway and this conflicting information, and then of course friends
and family weigh in on what's worked for them, and
(02:56):
they come in just completely overwhelmed on what's to think,
deal work to believe?
Speaker 4 (03:01):
Yeah, And so often when I'm working on a behavior case,
there is a some sort of a medical issue going
on in underlying current that it can be addressed and
that can really help with the process. So so important.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
I think it is an area that is it's time
to really highlight. I guess I would say, is that pain,
medical disability, you know, not feeling well from a gastritestinal problem,
the deritial logic problem, the skin infection, irritation. Neurologic or orthopedic
(03:38):
problems are incredibly important in both behavior change. So if
I see a behavior that's been stable in a dog
suddenly increase, That's where I'm going. Or if I see
a dog who has had no other signs of anxiety
or fear suddenly not wanting to do things, I'm thinking
(04:00):
orthopedic neurologic. And that is something that folks should know
is important because that's why you would seek out a
veterinarian who has specialized in behavior because we look at
these in a very integrated way and looking at health data,
doing a physical exam, evaluating for pain. It's part of
(04:23):
how we work with clients. So yeah, absolutely critically important.
Speaker 4 (04:28):
And I found we're kind of jumping ahead, but that's okay.
I feel that that's perfectly fine, and we're going to
get into what exactly is a veterinary behaviorist. But I
love this. So one thing, you know, when we talk
about analyzing pain, the dog may hide things or may
have some aggression issues, fear based issues, anxiety when they
(04:52):
go into the VAT, so I can see where it's hopeful.
A lot of times I recommend that to clients that
they take videos and have videos to share.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Videos are fantastic because you're right. A couple of things
can happen in a exam room. And as a better behaviorist,
our exam rooms are usually bigger, more spacious than an
exam room, say in a general practice might be. So
I may have more space, but I still don't see
(05:24):
that dog trot up and down them all way or
go up and downstairs, so I might see them jump
up or struggle to get up and off the couch
or how they sit in the room can be helpful
to me. But videos, if I am not able to
appreciate something in the room, videos are really really helpful,
particularly if the family can say, hey, I've been seeing
(05:46):
my dogs struggle in this environment. You know, to make
a video. Technology is so abcessible today, isn't it. You know,
maybe fifteen years ago it could have done that, but
really super helpful.
Speaker 4 (05:58):
Okay, let's back up a little bit and let's explain
to people what is a veterinary behaviorist.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
Well, veterinary behaviorists is an individual who has started their
career out as a licensed veterinarian, so they would have
gone through most veterinarians, I have a four year bachelor's degree.
Often in the science areas, they have a four year
degree from an accredited veterary in medical school, and then
(06:26):
most of the time before they start a residency in behavior,
they've already been practicing in a university or practicing in
a private practice setting for a number of years, so
they come in with a lot of experience as a
medically trained or surgically trained veterineerian. Myself, I actually have
(06:47):
had a multiple career switches, and I started off having
done a residency and boarded surgery and practice surgery for years,
both in academia and an industry, which is how I
ended up up in Cincinnati, but decided I really wanted
to go back into client contacting, working with pets and
love training well behavior and the residency requires a pretty
(07:12):
big commitment. You need a mentor or two. Sometimes folks
have two mentors who are already diplomats or boarded by
the American College of Vetterary Behaviorists, and in that program,
it's very well structured to the College of Veterary Behaviorists
that you see cases with your mentor, and then after
(07:35):
you've reached a certain point, that mentor has to review
every single case you see, so you're getting feedback and
red ink on all sorts of stuff and alternative thoughts
on how to treat or how to follow up the cases.
Over four hundred cases we have to see mentored during
a residency, which if you're really really quick at it,
(07:55):
you get it done in three to four years. The
more people take a little longer than that. Clinical cases
you are rotating if you haven't done it already, rotatingnything
like a dermatology, rotation, intereral medicine, radiology, to making sure
you're up to date on the latest approaches to treating
or advanced medical conditions. You have to structure and conduct
(08:18):
and write up and publish a research paper. Many people
present it as well at a national meeting. You have
case reports case report that has to get published as well,
so that's like a really what you'd feel is a
very representative case that demonstrates your knowledge around diagnostics and
treatment of a particular behavioral problem. And then you get
(08:42):
to sit the boarding exam. So the first part takes
your credentialing and then there is a two day formal
boarding exam that you take to be able to set
You're a diplomat of the American College of Better your Behaviors,
so it really is the most you know, I'm gonna
(09:03):
say advance and all as far as access to information,
we the undanded. We cover all species during our residency training.
So I had to be tested on birds. I am.
I love birds, but I am not in any way
an expert on avian medicine, but I had that. I
had to do zoo animals. I have horses and do
(09:24):
some horsework too. So we get horses and production animals,
so that's all part of your examination and of veterinary behaviors.
The reality I like to think of as in terms
of being a nary psychiatrist because I think we deal
with mental health issues and animals, and I really start
using that language with clients just to see how people respond.
(09:48):
And I've actually gotten very favorable response to that because
we are equivalent to a human psychiatrist because we integrate
We have a medical degree and we integrate medicine and
medical problem was in with behavioral problems and the use
of medication and other diagnostic treatments. So anyway, about one hundred.
Speaker 4 (10:08):
Of us in the world very much assured it. Yeah,
I think.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
We're getting I'm on the exam committee and we have
probably more and we definitely have more exam takers this
year than ever, which is really exciting. So hopefully we'll
see more folks with the certification. Currently there's not a
very behaviors in every state in the United States unfortunately yet.
Speaker 4 (10:29):
Yeah, and that makes it tricky then to find somebody
makes a.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Tricky sometimes and then knowing when should you call in
or ask for help wants or ask your regular veterinarian
for help or when should I think Honestly, if I
were to look at my practice, probably a half to
two thirds of live referrals come either self referral or
(10:54):
from really good traders and another third to me the
yeah with veterinarians, So they ways people get to us
is quite varied, which is different than if you went
to seek out a carreologist. Right, nice, I know I've
referred to you. Yeah, anyway, that's yeah, that's kind of
(11:17):
an a nut. Well maybe not, maybe I was a
little too long, but.
Speaker 4 (11:21):
Where you know what a lot wird analogy. Yeah, of view,
when the mental health and the psychiatrist, I think that's
great because we really are. We're dealing with mental health
issues and some also physiological things that are going on
that are impacting behavior. You know, sometimes I go into
(11:43):
a case and people just want their dog trained, and
you look and you see there's a lot going on
here with that dog that we need to address differently,
and in order to have some success, we need to
address those underlying issues that are going on. And to
be clear, then people, there's a difference between the veterinary
(12:05):
behaviors and going to see your vets. So You're not
replacing the VAT. It's a whole another whole specialty.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
Yeah, Lisa, it would be we are in a group
of veterinarians. They would be in the specialty college under
the ABMA American Betterny Medical Association, which means that we're
individual student's gone through advanced training in a specific area
to become board certified. So it would look very much
like if you went to a board certified dermatologist or
(12:37):
an internist for diabetes assistance. Suit. But we work collaboratively
with general practicing veterinearians, so I am the stopping point
for folks to help solve complex problems with behaviors. They
still go to the regular general practice for general practice
medical care. I work really closely with the general practice
(12:59):
community to help both them identify and treat. I don't
have to see every behavior issue, right There are some
that are relatively straightforward that I want them and hope
that they do treat or they can consult with me.
I have a lot of folks that will call a
text or email me or anybody think about this, or
(13:19):
I've tried this and it's not working. What do you
think is next? And the other area that I work
very collaboratively with veterinarians is in we have a lot
of pets, cats and dogs, but I've probably seen more dogs.
Would love to see more cats too, for these problems,
and that is fear based behaviors or fear based aggression
in the veterinary office where the pet can't receive care
(13:42):
because they're an anxiety and fear is so high they
can't touched or handled by the family or the veterinarian staff.
So that's another Sometimes that's the only reason people come
to me for is how do I get my pet
in the door to be able to be touched and
handled and treated, and that bus there's a lot of
anxiety on both sides. What if my pat tore a
(14:05):
nail or was hit by a car and I can't
if the men no one can handle them.
Speaker 4 (14:11):
So when would somebody all reach out to a veterinary
behaviorist versus going to their regular bat.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Well, you know, there's a variety of reasons. I think
that in one area it would be sometimes these a referral.
Sometimes the veterinarian will say, hey, I think we've done
all we can. You need to see a specialist. Those
are great that might be a case where that veterinarian
has tried something already and it's not working. There's been
(14:42):
a relapse of behavior, it's gotten more severe, there's a bite,
so behaviors have gotten worse, and there's a direct referral
or suggestion from the veterinarian. So that's an easy one.
So when you feel like you've run out of options
with the situation that you're working with, there will be
other options where I'll have There are many primary care
(15:03):
veterinarians who are not comfortable with, or do not want
to treat behavioral problems or can't they don't have time.
I'll tell you right off it that most veterinary schools
either do not have training for veterinarians of the curriculum
in veterary behavior or it's an elected course. Ohio's great,
(15:27):
and you've got to you got a colleague of mine
is a great behavior some faculty there. Michigan does not
have a veterinary behavior se faculty. So and that's just
kind of state by state. So a lot of veterinarians
get onto practiceing well, I don't understand these medications. I've
never been trained to identify behavior problem. I'm only try something,
(15:47):
but I'm really uncomfortable about it, So that would be
another reason someone should reach out if they're veterinarian. Either
does it feel comfortable with it or it says, you know,
I don't do this because it's not what I've been
trained to do. And then I see people reach out
on their own. I get people who say I need
more help because I'm not making progress. So there was
(16:09):
a bite in the home, and that's I'm the first
stop because they get on the internet and I see
a lot of cases that come in through folks like yourself, Lisa,
where you're working with a pet and you go like, wow,
there's been a bite in the home. There's a lot
of fear here. We've been working on aggression toward dogs
a leashwalks for a year. We're not making more unpress
(16:31):
They're too explosively angry or upset. There's too much fear
associated with a loud noises and we have to have
some a different evaluation. So if they're coming in from
follies of mind and who are in the training community,
it's usually because they can't. They don't seem to be able,
They've reached a plateau. They can't seem to progress with
(16:51):
the behavior is significant enough. You know, I feel like
the really good trainers like yourself know right off they go,
we're gonna work together, but you need to see the
behaviors first, and that's usually if the anxiety fear aggression
is significant.
Speaker 4 (17:09):
Yeah, and there are also times where we get the
sense that maybe it's better to have someone with more
the more advanced knowledge about the physiology side of it
and how that relates to behavior. And you also have
a much more in depth knowledge about the different medications,
(17:30):
and so there's just lots of benefits. So it's like
any specialty, because this is all I do every day,
right if I'm going to it'd be probably if you
or I went into.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
It interness or a GP and we ask them for
help with behavior medication. You know, they do a bazillion things.
And I'm so in all of people to do that
because I get the opportunity to focus in one area.
And when I get the opportunity with focus one area,
I start to really understand the lovers and dials of medication,
(18:03):
when it works, when it doesn't work, which to choose,
which and not to And there's that's kind of the
art I guess of practicing. So it's like there's certain
amount of book knowledge you learn when you're boarded, but
then there's also the knowledge of working with it. So
that's another good reason to refer. And as you mentioned,
the knowledge of the medications A most veterinarians do not
(18:24):
get that training in school at all, so help with
understanding which drug to use when if it's slide effects.
There's a lot of misinformation about medication and out there, Lisa,
which makes me sad when I see a family come
in and say, well, we weren't given being your medication
because we were told it increases aggression or it all
(18:47):
clause my dog to go to pidney failure. It's like
that's almost worse than no information in my book.
Speaker 4 (18:54):
Yeah, I don't want my dog seeming like he's drugged
or oh that's another one, and I yeah, either do
I that's not my goal.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
I'm not an anesthesiologist. So if you want to by
sleep all day, I got to get you to a
different specials.
Speaker 4 (19:08):
So I always tell people, you know what, all the
people that I've referred to back to their veterinarian or
vetinary behaviorists and really encourage them when they've had hesitancy
about the medication. First, I share my own personal story
with my dog and how that's really changed. But I've
(19:29):
seen so many times, because I do so many behavior cases,
how that can make a humongous difference. And I've never
ever heard anybody say I should never have done that.
What I hear over and over and over again is
why did I not do that? Sooner? Suddenly now their
dog can play, their dog can relax, their dog can
(19:53):
just enjoy life, and anxiety can take such big bandwidth
in their brain.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
We're not good learners slumber anxious all the time, are we.
It's helpful to think about a dog's anxiety or cat
it comes that initial panic in fear and rage or anger,
because I do think dogs experience all of those comes
from a very old part of our brain. So we
share that they don't put a lot of the creatrial cortex,
(20:20):
like gee, I'm gonna worry about getting in the airplane
when I go on to my long trip like subber
to California. So we start getting they I don't think
that they think that far that they feared anxiety and
arousal level, that that feeling is very similar to what
we have ourselves because it's it's also what keeps us alive.
(20:41):
So I it's a balance, isn't it. It's I tell
folks you know that fear and anxiety is what makes
you run fast away from danger, keeps you alive. So
that's some Unfortunately, some animals have a lot more of
that's more quickly actively.
Speaker 4 (20:56):
Yeah, GI issues or no, we could do a whole
thing on the GI issues and how that relates to questions.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
Look, got on medical pain. Some of the most painful
dogs I've been, the ones that have been the hardest,
have been the most aggressive. That sometimes families don't understand
how big a role that plays. And I also think
sometimes general practice veterinarians speaking again, and I'm not focused
(21:26):
in on the behavioral response of the dog, they can
underestimate how many dogs are painful and how pain plays
out in irritable behavior.
Speaker 4 (21:37):
I was just thinking today, you know, I'm a I'm
a huge pickle ball player, pickball huge pickleball player. I
had an injury about four months ago, and I had
a tough time get staying off the courts. But it's
gotten point. I finally got help, and so they're saying, yeah,
(21:58):
you need to take time off. But what I was
thinking about is that when I it was in paying,
it really changed my game because I think you're not
even thinking about it, but you're afraid to run for
balls because you're afraid of what that pain is going
to be like. So you have memory of that, and
(22:18):
that's probably gonna even when I heal, it's gonna that
pain memory is going to be with me.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
The guarden, aren't you.
Speaker 4 (22:27):
Yeah, you know, I think about that type of analogy
when we're talking about pets too, is if you've got
an injury, you're going to be very protected.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
That's so true and not an area we're talking about today,
But that's a huge, huge air apor horses because riding
and saddle fitting and bridle and shoeing, if you know,
the or the bigges problems at but you know, any
animal that uses themselves athletically going to even be harder.
(22:59):
I think I have actually seen a number of dogs
who are performance dogs agility tracking, and these families owners
are really attuned to how the dog is working. Many times,
look whereas maybe a family that like might it missed
for a while, but they're noticing, you know, like they
missed that jump a little bit, or there's they're not
(23:21):
quite right out of the wheatfoles, and I think that
pain and then pain cs into noise and sound sensitivity
gets amplified, and there's a lot of subtlety to this,
like you've described right, that may just start by dropping performance,
slowing at times, slowing a willingness to do something. I
(23:43):
encourage folks listening to us today to think about that
and make sure that they're asking their veterinarian to look
at medical and pain related or orsopedic or neurologic pain
related problems. We could just spend a full hour talking
about some cases I seen, and.
Speaker 4 (24:03):
I would love to do that. Yeah, and even the
GI stuff. That's kind of a hot issue for me
right now. So definitely would love to have you back
and have another discussion for people. That would be great. Well,
I so much appreciate you being here today.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
Oh it's been a delight, Lisa, Thanks for having me.
Speaker 4 (24:25):
Sure sure, So we're going to have your information on
how people connect can connect with you in the show notes,
So we really appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
I am always happy to, you know, answer emails. I
practice primarily in the state of Michigan. Detroit, Aura, Grand Rapids,
and Traverse City. But I do see cases also in
northern Ohio, and I consult with clients and they're referring
veterinarians across the United States and in Canada, so that way,
(24:56):
I usually work with the local veterinarian, but I see
client cases all over. So please if folks have questions
or I can put you in touch with another better
behaviors in their area too.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Thanks for listening.
Speaker 5 (25:08):
If you enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing to my podcast,
Come back often and tell your friends. If I can
be of any help to you and your pet.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
Please reach out.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
To me via my website www dot so much potential
dot com and for a lot more information, fun and videos,
please follow me so Much Potential on Facebook, Instagram and YouTube.
(25:41):
See you soon,
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