Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Uh, if you want to maybe they've become a bit
stale and you want to do something new with them,
or maybe it's or maybe it's Sometimes it's a matter
of finding out or trying to see if someone's better
suited to that role. Like The Rock, for example, comes
to mind. When the Rock was a white meat babyface
as Rocky my Via, and the fans hated him so
(00:21):
much and they didn't buy the gimmick. And there's Rocky,
Rocky is very adorable, adorable dog. But when the fans
weren't buying it, we're in bying in the Rocky my villa.
And then he turned heel, joining the Nation of Domination
and all that. It turned out he was a fantastic heel,
so good at being a heel that eventually he had
to turn face again because the fans found him to
(00:42):
be so entertaining in this new new role. And that
happens to you sometimes.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
I think the big thing with the Rock, and that's
a very good one to bring up, is it was
just such a shitty gimmick when.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
He was a baby face initially.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Yeah, yeah, it was just that it was bad, Oh
my goodness, it was bad. You know.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
There there are ideas that you hear some wrestlers talk
about as this was their original idea for me, and
I'm like, no, Like they wanted it turn the ring
master into the iceman Steve Austin and they had him
(01:30):
wear ice suit like mister Freeze.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Yeah. And he had the good sense to reject that idea.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
Physically told Bill.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
He said, point blank, Vince, that's the ships, yeah, which
is wrestling for I'm not doing that.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
That is a bad idea, right.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
They originally had called McK foley mankind the mutilator. I
didn't know that, yeah, and then mix like, well, that's
a lot for me to get out.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
Why don't we.
Speaker 4 (02:06):
Just short yeah? Yeah, I mean kid yeah, And he
was wrong, he was. I mean most of it.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Look, most of the time, the wrestlers are right because
they are in front of the fans nightly and it's
what are they gonna feel comfortable?
Speaker 3 (02:29):
What?
Speaker 1 (02:30):
What?
Speaker 3 (02:30):
What are they going to be comfortable? Do?
Speaker 5 (02:32):
We?
Speaker 3 (02:33):
M h If they're not comfortable, it's not going to
be believable.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Mm hmm. Like I he.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
Was harken back to the night on.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Thursday, Raw Thursday, most known for when Shawn Michaels lost
his smile.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
Yes, but something else happened on that that was rather
his story.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Rocky my Via beat Triple H for the Intercontinental title
then hurts him. Helmsley doc Hendrix is interviewing him and
the Crowns booming.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
You're in the interview. Yeah, that's when you know.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Yeah, well because at that point you've got nothing to
lose if you try. If you've got a babyface who's
being booed to that extent, you've got nothing to lose, right,
you might as well try him as a heel because
obviously what you're doing isn't working.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Or god, until he got injured, he injured his shoulder.
I think was the was the overwhelming story or what happened? Sorry,
the Rock injured his shoulder, came back and here we
(04:04):
are and he came back as a member of the
nation and domination.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
M yep yep, and got over huge. What's interesting about
that too, about the Rock is so if you fast
forward to years later, you know he's he becomes a
part timer because he's making movies, he's spending a lot
of time in Hollywood, and then he comes back as
(04:30):
a babyface because now he's this big Hollywood actor, and
the fans were starting to boo him, and they did,
and they ended up turning him again. But this time
it was interesting because they'd done something they'd never really
that I can recall really done before where the Rock.
(04:51):
So he's turning, but he's actually like acknowledging, I'm turning
heel this time because you guys clearly want me to
be a heel. Remember that promo where he said he
says to the audience, he says, do you realize where
we're all gonna go? If? I forget exactly how he
said the rest of it, but if because obviously he
didn't say if I turn heel. But he's like, you know,
(05:12):
you really want that version of the Rock or something
like that, and that's what they wanted, and that's what
he gave them. And then because he gave them that,
what happens Now he's a heel. But now some of
the crowd is cheering him as a heel because this
is the version of the Rock they wanted and now
they're getting it. So it's interesting. It's different than when
when when I first started watching it when I was
(05:33):
a kid, because you know, at some point it became
a lot of people would cheer, Like, if the heel
is entertaining enough and you're enjoying him as a heel,
you're going to end up cheering him even though he's
supposed to be a heel. The dynamics have changed a
lot over the years, but yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
They have, and.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
A lot of it is due to dirt sheets.
Speaker 3 (05:59):
The fans have become smartened up.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
But the detriment to that is the fans think they
know better than the wrestlers. And I think that was
a big thing that the Rock did when he did that,
is you don't really because I'm gonna you think you
caused this heel. Turn no, no, no, no, turn it,
(06:23):
and it's gonna be on you. And you know what,
I've been in Hollywood. I've been making movies. I don't
have to come back and be a professional wrestler. I
can just make movies. You all suck. Yeah, And it
worked perfectly, I mean because I first time he took
a hiatus to do movies, he came back and was
(06:45):
over like Rover as a babyface. Then the second time
he did it again over like Grover.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
He had in the match with Eddie Guerre on Raw.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Off of that that had a It was kind of
the precipice that built towards the office realizing Eddie can,
Eddie can run with this ball here and you sit
there and you're watching it. And the time it happened,
(07:27):
he came back dropped the belt to He had dropped
the belt to Brock and it was the night after
WrestleMania and he had finally been stone cold at WrestleMania
mm hmm. And he's like, who's next bil Bergadies, And
(07:52):
you know the rock is. I don't know if there's
a better professional wrestler at being able to play, to
be able to play.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
To the crowd no matter what they do.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Yeah, you can whip it like that. That's why I
feel not having him. And you've agreed with this. For
the John Cena heel turn was what killed the John
Cena heel turn.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
Sort of we'll get to that. We'll get to that.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
Under the when don't they work?
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Yeah, well we'll get to that because that's complicated. I
have some some feelings on that, but.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
What's episode on why that didn't work?
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Then I do agree that he'll turns happen because you're
really trying to generate new buzz into someone. That's also
why they That's also why conversely they may not work.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Mm hm, you know, yeah, if it's if it's forced.
A great example. When you say a heel turn that
doesn't work, the first thing that comes to mind for
me is Goldberg. When they tried that in WCW. That
did not work at all.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
It was one before it.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
One before w CW did and even the night had happened.
It wasn't a why the hell are they doing this?
I'm mad they're doing this.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
It was doesn't make sense. Dusty Rhodes, Oh.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
Yeah, yeah, that one was strange too. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
Well they did it.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
To be fair, their heart was in the right place
as to why they did it. They wanted to have
a veteran influence around Scott Hall and Louise Speccolei at all. Yeah,
even on the road. So how else do you explain
(10:15):
why Dusty is traveling with these two?
Speaker 1 (10:20):
Right?
Speaker 6 (10:21):
Uh?
Speaker 1 (10:22):
For those who don't know, uh, Scott Hall and Louis
Pacoley obviously both had pretty severe issues in terms of
I guess alcohol, right, I don't know, not so much pills,
but maybe I'm not sure you would know better than me.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
Definitely with Scott it was pills.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
It was pills, okay, yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
Him and Sean would take.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Yeah, that's right. Yeah, the Dusty Rhades one was was strange.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
That was so bad, and then it was still bad
that it was one of them that they just moved
him back to the announced booth with no explanation.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Yeah, they just aban, which isn't very satisfying.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
Fans were totally cool with it.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
Yeah, yeah, that was Yeah, that was a strange one.
I'd actually forgotten about that one.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
That was old Berg's was bad because they did it
after they ended the streak. And if you were to
end the streak, wide him off TV, take him off
TV for a while. No, they still wanted him around
because he was a draw. The problem is what do
(11:43):
you do with him the streak has ended? You want
to you should want to strap a rocket to Kevin
Nash's ass straight to the top.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Yeah, but they did.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
They did the finger poked.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
Oh that was dreadful. But but the other the other oh,
go ahead, thin.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
The golder heel turned because they tried it twice, but
it is second. The second I think it would have
worked because fans were starting to turn on him, but
he had to go and punch his hand through that
car window.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
I remember that. Yeah, yeah, he almost he almost severed
his hand. Yeah, yeah that.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
I mean that would have been the time to do.
And you haven't.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Joined you have him joined the nWo, and it would
have made sense.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
Yeah, but the problem and that.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
Incarnation of the nWo, had they went that route, would
have made a lot of sentence. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
The problem with the first one.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
You had Goldberg got injured shortly after Brett got injured
ironically by Goldberg.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
Yeah, so about Brett, and.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
Without Goldberg you had Steiner, Nash and Jerry.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Well, the biggest problem with the first one to me
was when I remember that the promo, the big, the
big promo, Goldberg comes out and we're gonna hear from
him now is a heel and he goes, uh, he
says something like, so everyone's asking me, why'd you do it?
I'll tell you why, why the hell not? And it's like, oh,
that's great, okay. I mean that literally is what he said.
(13:40):
And it's like, this is some lazy writing here, and
there was never any he never offered an explanation. It
was stupid, very very stupid.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
It was, And that's the interesting thing about it is
it never made sense.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Yeah, yeah, just.
Speaker 3 (14:00):
Was never done right.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
So do you have a favorite heel turn?
Speaker 3 (14:09):
Yeah, it's got to be Brett. Yeah, it's gotta be Brett.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
When uh Now, I assume you're talking about the double
turn with Austin that happened in the ring during their match.
Speaker 5 (14:23):
Is that?
Speaker 1 (14:24):
Is that? What are you referring to that specifically? I
assume you're not referring to any of the several however
many that happened in w c W where they had
him turning almost as often as the Big Show. I
assume you're not talking about that.
Speaker 7 (14:37):
I'm Austin one because that one and then the next
night that promo he cut, Yeah, and to.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Come out and cut the promo with Owen and Davey
in the middle of their match.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Yeah Jesus.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
And then it was great and you that there he
gives like that cold callous stare is Davy and Owen
are hugging him?
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Yeah? Yeah, god, this is yeah? Yeah, No, that was
that was excellent. Of course.
Speaker 3 (15:25):
My favorite Hogan joining the nw.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
O Yeah yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
And one thing that I'll say about that is a
lot of people have said that this is a detriment
to it, but I think it actually made it better.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
It was a little nuanced part of it.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Mm hmm, what's up.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
A little nuanced part of it is when Hogan's will
walking down and Bobby Heenan on Commentary goes, but who
side is he on?
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Yeah, I didn't care for that, Bud it because.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
That Bobby Bobby for he did Bastagan in Cities. If
he said something like that, I think it would have
spoiled it.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
See, I think, uh, well, I liked one of the things.
I didn't like that he said that, but I don't
think it ruined it by any means either. But I
do think that one of the things that made the
Hogan turn so effective was Bobby Heenan then on commentary,
not just then, but but week after week saying, you know,
Bobby Heenan, the classic heel manager, saying over and over
(16:49):
he'd say it every week. I told you, I told
you who this guy really was all these years, I
told you who hul Cogan really was, and you didn't listen.
And I was, and he was. He was kind of vindicated,
and it was That was a cool part that I
think a lot of people missed a lot of people
missed that because nobody ever brings that part up. But that,
to me, that's a key element in what made the
(17:11):
Hogan turn so effective.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
It wasn't for Bobby Heenan.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
I don't think hul Cogan would have been as over
as he was.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
Yeah, Bobby Heenan.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
As much as the Iron Cheek and Rodny Piper jump
started whole comania, Bob.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Heenan carried it. Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
For it to be successful, you have to have that
monster heel and a lot of the moles WWF had
at that time as it was in the eighties, you don't.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
You don't sit there and how do I want to
word this? They didn't have great mic skills mm hmmm.
Who had to have a mouthpiece with him? That mouthpiece
for a lot of them was Bobby Heenan.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
Yes, oh yeah, yep.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Bobby Heenan is what really made the Andre Hogan feud work.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
Oh yeah, absolutely, yeah, because and didn't talk much him.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Yeah, Bobby, you don't have that prespice for Andre turning. Uh,
you have the person that was in Andre's ear.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Oh, it was so great when when Andrea and and
Heenan walk out on Piper's pit and Hogan's like, what
are you doing with this guy?
Speaker 2 (18:41):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (18:41):
It was perfect. It was so well done.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
What's that the contract signing?
Speaker 1 (18:49):
Oh yeah that was good too.
Speaker 3 (18:52):
If you're gonna sign it, brother, sign it. I don't
mean to hear him.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Yeah. No, the whole thing was so good. The match
was shit, but the build up was incredible. I mean
to me, I mean that was just you know, and
I was a kid. I was like, Wow, I was
just enthralled by all of it. Should we talk about uh,
(19:20):
should we talk about John Cena? We can, because there's
a lot to unpack with that one.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
I I think it goes back to my original point.
M hm, sena mh is uh. The original point I
had with in regards to John Cena in the Heel
(19:52):
Turn or anyone doing He'll Turn I'm sorry, is the
talent has to believe in it, and I don't. John
fully was fully committed.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
To being a heel.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
I think that hurt it.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
I think a key element of it was the Rock
in not having the Rock there after the heel Turn
killed it because the in this started is the Rock
wanded Cody's soul, right, John sold his soul to the Rock, right, But.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
Yeah, it just made the whole thing bad.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
So here's what I what I think, and this is
I and again, and we talked about it before. I'm
definitely in the minority. I'm on an island on this.
I know. Within the IWC. I liked the heel seeing
a turn, well, I love the I think everyone liked
the turn like that moment. That moment was seismic, but
I liked that. I don't agree that he wasn't committed.
(21:07):
I think he was. I think that, but I think
that what people didn't like, what a lot of people
didn't like, I think they wanted seeing it to be
more sort of overtly evil, or they were looking for
something that he wasn't quite giving us. And this is
what I think. I said this to you before I'll
say it again. I liked that he didn't overplay it.
(21:28):
He underplayed it, and I thought that was cool. It's
like when he came out and he said, what you
expect me to go back to my old music or
have new music, or you expect different outfits or whatever,
you get nothing and that minimalism. I liked that whole thing.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
I think the promos were very good. Oh you do okay, yeah,
I just think not having the Rock killed it. John
Seml could have on anything. John Tena is a great
mic guy, one of the best.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
To absolutely absolutely, but you.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
If you're going to have a person be a prespice
for a heel turn, that person consistently be around.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
It helps. I think they could have gotten around that though,
I really do. And part of why I think if
they needed to tweak as much as I was enjoying it,
I would have tweaked a couple things, one of them
being and I think because Sina is so good on
the way, he could have pulled this off, you know
if really because they didn't play up enough the element
(22:44):
of spin it a little bit as I didn't sell
my soul to the Rock. I sold my soul to Hollywood,
and they could have even with the Rock not being around,
they could have drawn on the past and said, you know,
this is what they could have done. And Sina totally
could have pulled it off. They could have had seen
(23:06):
out there saying listen, I criticized the Rock all those
years ago, but now I get it. Now, I understand
why the real reason he sold his soul to Hollywood,
now that I'm in that position, I finally get it.
So now I'm doing the same damn thing and you
all don't like it, but this is who I really
am something like that. So even without the Rock around,
(23:30):
if you adjust the narrative, he didn't sell his soul
to the Rock. He's just following the Rocks example. He's
now sold his soul to Hollywood. I think with that
little adjustment, I think it would have worked better. But
they didn't do that. And listen when I see all
the stuff he's doing now now that he's gone back
(23:50):
to being a babyface, it is all really good. I
loved his match with aj Styles, so I get it.
So maybe it is just as well that it didn't
work out and they changed him, because we are getting
some really good stuff. But I will say this to
everyone who says, oh, it was a failure. They should
never have done the heel turn to begin with. I
would just say this, Think about this, even if you
(24:13):
hated everything about it. If they hadn't if in an
alternate universe, says no, John Cena, heeltern right, If they
hadn't done that, we would have been deprived of an
awesome moment because Seena's heel turn in my opinion that
moment it was seismic. It was people were talking about
it on par with the Hogan heel turn, and everything
(24:36):
about it was so perfectly done. The way they zoom
in on his face when he's hugging Cody and the
Rock is looking at him and they make eye contact
and seen his expression changes and he goes from smiling
to that sinister look, and oh my god. It was
so so good, and we if they hadn't gone for it,
if they hadn't at least tried that, we would have
(24:57):
been deprived of that amazing moment, which, by the way,
they got a lot of mainstream media attention. I'm sure
you did.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
I know.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
I talked to people. I heard from people who are like, hey, Matt,
what's this all about. I saw something on the news
about John Cena is a villain now, and I haven't
watched wrestling in a long time, so I haven't kept
up with what's going on. Tell me about it. I mean,
we would have been deprived of all of that if
they hadn't gone for it.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
I had people come up to me at work and
they're like, what they do with John Cena?
Speaker 1 (25:25):
Yeah, isn't that cool?
Speaker 2 (25:31):
But you then have to I felt any way that
I had to go into nuances of the business.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
It's a lot to explain. Like if you're talking to
somebody who either has never really been into wrestling or
they just haven't watched it in a really long time,
it is a lot to explain to somebody. Yes, it's
a lot to get into at the water cooler.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Yeah, yeah, we only have a fifteen minute break.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
Well why would they do that. Well, he's wiring, but
wrestling's fake.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
Well yeah, it is a lot to get into. But anyway,
the point being, I'm really glad they at least tried it, because,
no matter how you feel about it, that's one of
those awesome moments that we're all gonna remember for the
rest of our lives.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
You know, when he told the kid, we're in a
toxic relationship.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
Oh my god, Yes, I love that. But I even
loved I even loved just the subtle things, like I said,
because he underplayed it, just the things like, oh, you
know what I loved was that backstage promo where he
encounters Jay Uso and he just just totally deadpan just
says to him, you know, if you lose to Logan Paul.
(26:50):
That would almost ruin wrestling, just the way that he
delivered the lie. It was so deadpan, like I know,
and people were like, I heard Brian, and uh what what?
He's talking like a robot. There's not even in any
emotion there. It's like, dude, don't you get it. That's
the thing he's he's he's under playing it. And it's awesome.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
Getting the hustle, loyalty, respect, John Cena, We're getting Sina.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
He's going through the motions. He's just giving us just
enough because that's all he has to do.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
Yeah. Yeah, I loved it, but but again I'm in
the minority.
Speaker 5 (27:31):
To it is to have his first promo why happened
at an international show.
Speaker 3 (27:40):
Yeah, I think that kind of killed it too.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
I think that that should have been saved for really
big ww market like New York City, somewhere on the
Upper East Coast, or like a wrestling town like Chicago,
or uh, you know, even Dallas Fort Worth area could
have done it well.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
I also, and we talked about this before too, I
also would have tweaked that a little bit too, because
I wouldn't have I think they should have waited what
I think they should have. I think he should have
maintained being a heel going into that match with Cody,
and then after losing the title to Cody, then maybe
turn babyface by you know, raising Cody's hand and being cool,
and then the next night do a promo where instead
(28:28):
of saying because I didn't like when he I didn't
like when he turned back and he said, you know,
I let somebody, he made an obvious reference to the Rock,
which was cool, you know, I believed in somebody who
abandoned me or however he said it, and then he
but then he said something about they talked me into
making shocking television. Because then it was almost like he's
coming out and saying, you know, I just did this
(28:49):
to make good TV, which is kind of borderline breaking,
k fabe. He could have said something like he could
have been a little more vulnerable, and he did show
some vulnerability saying I was afraid you would all forget
about me and this and that. But what he should
have said something, I think, something like I felt like
I had to do this, like I had to be bad,
I had to cheat to get because I was so
(29:10):
obsessed with with with you know, winning this title one
more time. When he getting to seventeen. I was so
obsessed with it. I let that take me over, and
I realized I was wrong now and I'm sorry. Something
like that would have been better, like.
Speaker 3 (29:25):
The whole good TV line.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Because keep in mind, around the time he said that
was when the controversy regarding untold had occurred. Oh unreal, Yes,
when that controversy really started kicking out. So I think
the line there, but I get I see your issue
(29:48):
with it. It was kind of like I never thought
John Cena would be a sellout. That's almost kind of
a detriment.
Speaker 6 (29:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
Like, I'm cool with you saying you were tempted by
winning seventeen, you didn't think you could do it without
hell YadA, YadA, YadA, yah YadA. But then when you
went to that line, I get it. It's like, oh,
so Johnsen is a sellout?
Speaker 3 (30:11):
Are there are there ever any real heroes anymore?
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (30:15):
I guess not. It's the end of the Night of
the Living Dead, right.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
Oh So I have a question. Uh, And if you
don't want to speak for him, I get it, but
I'll ask you, Uh, how what about Austin? How does
how did he feel about it?
Speaker 3 (30:34):
I looked it. I'm pretty sure. Yeah, you liked it.
Speaker 8 (30:40):
I think he got kinda tired of it, yeah, the
midway point, like okay, yeah, but.
Speaker 3 (30:51):
Look, I'm even to be I fought.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
Similarities between Austin and I at them when Brett turned.
Speaker 6 (31:02):
I didn't turn on Brett right, of course, I like
wanted to wear clothes with the Canadian flag on it
in school.
Speaker 3 (31:15):
Always when I.
Speaker 5 (31:16):
Was in uh eighth grade, telling him it sucks yeah,
and copying Brett Hart's statements from wrong about why America
sucks from.
Speaker 3 (31:33):
The United States of America. I'd stick it right here
in Taft Middle School.
Speaker 4 (31:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
Wow, Yeah, I loved it.
Speaker 3 (31:46):
I loved it.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
I was upset that we didn't get Heart Foundation shirts.
Speaker 3 (31:53):
Yeah, you know, Brett. I loved every minute of it.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
And I thought, and I think a lot of it
because to me it made sense.
Speaker 3 (32:05):
It's like, you're booing this guy. Why are you booing in?
You're booing in?
Speaker 2 (32:10):
Because any heel turn also has to resonate in reality.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
Yeah, it has to. There has to be a logic
to it. It can't just be. It can't just be, oh,
this person is evil all of a sudden, right.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
You can't people can't sit here and say, oh, well,
you can't just do it. People heard the booze for
Brett people. Brett become kind of a cry baby, so
it made sense. But you could also argue, but Brett
(32:44):
is getting screwed constantly. Yeah, like me, why he's mad?
How dare you boo this man? The injustice is being
done to him?
Speaker 1 (32:56):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Yeah, so yeah, if you are true, Brett Hart Pay
definitely were well ride in that wave.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
In some ways, Brett was ahead of his time or
and that that whole storyline was ahead of its time
in the sense that you know, because we've talked about
how you know, I to me personally like we're in
the golden age of wrestling right now because we see
a level of nuance with characters, uh and and their
stories and that we have not seen very much before
(33:30):
now in my opinion, but I feel like that was
a that was like a precursor to all of that,
because Brett Hart had become he was never one dimensional,
but now he was this really nuanced character where yeah,
you know, he's a heel, but you could definitely be
sympathetic and see that he has a point. And they
did this innovative thing. Of course, where he's a heel
(33:52):
in the United States, but he's still the hero everywhere else,
not only in Canada but internationally. So so that was
really innovative too. And he was absolutely fantastic through all
of it. I mean his promos, those were the best
promos of his career. I think, just fantastic.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
America, they say loving or leave it, Well, I'm loving
leaving it.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
Oh yeah, all of it was so good. All of
it was so good.
Speaker 3 (34:26):
In Canada, we care about family values. Brett. Three years ago,
you were bashing your brother's face into his steel cage, right.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
No, everything about it was. Everything about it was great.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
That's my favorite heel turn is because I didn't think
it was amazing. I think, uh, another one I loved.
He wasn't really a heel turn. It was more of
a tweener.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
Thang sting when.
Speaker 3 (35:04):
They thought he was going to defect to the nWo.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
Well yeah, I mean but he never actually.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
But it was a tweener promo and I loved it
because and then they then he didn't see him for
like six months.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
Yeah yeah, yeah yeah, And.
Speaker 3 (35:23):
It was how they did that was awesome.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
Yes, very good.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
The entire build up because even going into Starcade. I'm
sure you remember this. There was a little undercurrent, what
if he really is a member of the nWo and
this is all boy by Hogan, is like they do
for stages, lays down for Hogan. How ironic that that
(35:52):
would end up being the final male inn w CW's coffin.
Speaker 3 (35:57):
Somebody laid down for Hogan, right A couple two three
years later?
Speaker 2 (36:06):
Yeah, so yeah, that's that was I love the tweeen sting.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
Yeah yeah, yeah, that's another great example too, where they
were able to really present a character in a nuanced
way and in a complex way and not just one dimensional. Yeah, yeah,
that's a that's a great example. Any other notable US
heel turns we haven't talked about. I mean, I feel
(36:37):
like we've talked about the biggest ones.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
But yes, yeah, I'm trying to think we talked about
andre one one that never just it just went over
like the Titanic hitting an Iceberg.
Speaker 3 (36:54):
Stone cold Steve Austin.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
Yeah, that ones complicated too, though.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
Example of whenning does it work, never should have done it.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
I agree with you, except for one thing. You know how,
when I talked like I talked about sina I talked
about some of what we would have been deprived of,
deprived of if we didn't get the turn. So with Austin,
if we hadn't gotten that turn, we would have been
deprived of things like, Oh, I'll tell you one of
Jenny's favorite promos that she stumbled upon YouTube one day,
(37:31):
the promo where they're they're doing the uh, you know,
the invasion storyline, and and Vince's backstage and he's talking
like you know that, guys, guys, this is an invasion,
and Austin goes invasion and Fitz is like, we got
to support each other, and Austin's like support each other
and it's so funny.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
Undertaker the whole time is biting his lower lip because
he's trying.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
So that's the thing, is like, yeah, I agree with you.
The turn was terrible, but we we would have missed
out because Austin.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
Turns out that is some favorite theme music is a
lion Stone Cold Steve Austin theme music.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
Yeah, yeah, that was good too. That was good. But
but he did like some of the stuff he was
doing with Kurt Angle. I mean, he he really Austin
got to really kind of show off his comedic chops.
What's that? Oh the hell? Yeah, yeah, there's a lot
of so, you know, people people should on the Austin turn.
(38:36):
And I do think in the broad sense it was
a bad idea, but we did get some good stuff
out of that, We really did, So.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
I just think that I think there was probably a
better way they could have done it. I don't think
they needed events for it happened. I think has had
Austin just beat the hell out of the lock and
screw him over in that match. Yeah, I think that's
(39:09):
one way.
Speaker 3 (39:10):
But if you don't have Vince, then you don't.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
I think it went off the rails when Triple H
blew his squad out m I think had Triple H
not gotten injured, you could have salvaged it.
Speaker 3 (39:27):
And that's one of the.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
Biggest what its ever in pro wrestling history, because what
if Triple H would have been part of the invasion angle?
Speaker 3 (39:35):
What what it? I mean?
Speaker 2 (39:38):
If Triple H would have been involved, you might argue
they could have gotten haul in Hatch right in Sean
Michaels and done something, or you could have had a
third group. You could have had the Click come back
and say hey, we're back right right.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
Yeah. Also, It's interesting with the Austin heel turn. You know,
there's the inevitable face turn, and I honestly don't even
remember how the face turn happened. I cannot all all
I can recall, so obviously it wasn't very memorable. All
(40:23):
I can really remember is it almost was like like
like a gradual sort of they just sort of phased
him back into being a babyface after a while. I
don't even remember anything particular about it.
Speaker 2 (40:38):
How it happened is they had that Winner Take All
It Survivor series. Okay, they had Kurt Angle turn on
the Alliance to cost them the match. Okay, they had
Angle over Austin in the rock pinned Austin and it okay.
Speaker 3 (40:59):
So then the next night is.
Speaker 2 (41:01):
When Rick Flair returned and because Vince was just gonna
give Kurt Angle the WWF Championship, and uh Ric Flair
is like, no, I'm a co owner with you because
kids sold their stock to me. I remember that, I'm
rehiring stone Cold. Then you're gonna face stone Cold for
(41:22):
that title?
Speaker 1 (41:23):
Okay?
Speaker 3 (41:25):
And that got him back over and then you know,
about six months later, stone Cold walked out.
Speaker 1 (41:33):
Oh yes, yep, yep, you know, it's funny when I
think about Flair in that whole angle. Flair comes in
and supposedly he's co owner, and all I remember about
that is I remember, like, I remember Flair coming in.
I remember as a big moment, and I remember Vince
pulling his ear like Carol Burnett used to do when
(41:54):
he was upset when Rick Flair came out, and uh,
and I remember Flair saying something to him like that,
remember when your kids sold their stock to a consortium. Well,
the consortium is me, and now I'm your good. You know.
It was all very confluted. But that's all I remember.
I don't even remember the Stone Cold part of that.
Speaker 3 (42:15):
Yeah it was. And then at Vengeance they had a
four million tournament.
Speaker 2 (42:23):
Rock took on Chris Jericho for the big gold bell,
Stone Cold took on Kurt Angle for the WWF title.
The winners advanced, Stone Cold took on Chris Jericho for
the undisputed WWF Championship. Yeah, and Uo screwed over stone Cold.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
That okay that I remember now, Yeah yep.
Speaker 2 (42:51):
Then that began the downfall because instead of putting Austin
with Hogan, they put him with Haul.
Speaker 1 (43:01):
Yeah yep. Oh, I just thought of a heel turned.
I can't believe I didn't think of this one till
just now, because it involves my favorite wrestler of all time,
Macho Man Randy Savage. Even though it was predictable the
mega power is exploding, but it was still great. I
(43:22):
loved it. I loved that that whole thing, Hogan versus
Macho Man.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
I gave two the promos. The promos we got out
of Macho Man were just amazing.
Speaker 1 (43:35):
Yes, oh yeah, oh Cogan, I hate your goods. Those
promos are incredible.
Speaker 3 (43:45):
Yeah, lost in your eyes.
Speaker 2 (43:48):
Yeah, especially that last It's to my right, no Puka
Maniacs to.
Speaker 3 (43:55):
My left, Yes, and everyone of them.
Speaker 2 (43:59):
He was, which is bust and sweat or you're like.
Speaker 1 (44:08):
And the very last promo, the very last promo that
ared on television right before He's like it was it
was him at his absolute most intense, like.
Speaker 3 (44:20):
Old Googan, I hate your guts.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
Yeah, oh so good, so good. And Hogan, you know,
to give him credit, I mean he played his role
well and all that too. Macho Man was just untouchable,
so good.
Speaker 2 (44:36):
I I'm a minority I and we've talked about this
in our Macho Man episode.
Speaker 3 (44:44):
Yeah, Macho Man should have went over.
Speaker 1 (44:49):
Oh, I would have loved that. Well, he was my favorite,
so I wanted him to anyway, but I knew that
he wouldn't, But I would have loved if he had.
Speaker 2 (44:56):
It would have made perfect sense. You have n't dropped elbows.
But at that time they were thinking not just of
WrestleMania five, but WrestleMania six, and we can play you're Hogan.
Speaker 3 (45:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:13):
Well also, I mean at that time, it was unthinkable
for the heel to go over in the main event
of WrestleMania. You know what I mean. I mean that
didn't happen n till Triple H with Triple H was
the first heel to go over in a main event
at WrestleMania. And I remember even when that happened. Which
one was that because I get confused on the numbers, but.
Speaker 2 (45:37):
You could argue nine was the first one where a
heel went over.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
Is that the one? I'm thinking? Wait, who went over
and beat Brett? Oh Stone called beet Brett. No, I'm
talking about in the main event though.
Speaker 2 (45:55):
At WrestleMania nine at Caesar's Palace, Yokozuna beat Brad Hart
for the w WFG.
Speaker 1 (46:02):
Oh, I'm sorry, Eric, your my cut out a little bit.
I thought I thought you said when h I thought
you said something else. Oh yeah, yeah, well yeah but
that doesn't. But but you still have Hogan come out and.
Speaker 3 (46:15):
He's still happy and over in the main event.
Speaker 1 (46:19):
Well that's true, that's true. But you know what I mean,
when the when the final when the final image of
the show is a heel victorious. I mean Triple H
was the first one. Oh it was WrestleMania two thousand,
wasn't it.
Speaker 2 (46:37):
I'm trying to think because I watched every WrestleMania. Yeah,
so I'm trying to think back nine ten, Brett eleven,
uh bam eleven was Lawrence Taylor because a Lawrence Taylor
(46:58):
was in the main event that year.
Speaker 3 (47:00):
Yeah, with Bambagh.
Speaker 2 (47:03):
Twelve was Sean, thirteen was SID No. Thirteen Sid was
the heel No. Thirteen Taker one. Yeah, yeah, super Beats
fourteen Austin fifteen Austin two thousand, Triple.
Speaker 1 (47:24):
H Yeah, yep, yep, in that Fatal four way because
I was and I remember being very surprised. I remember
watching it live with a friend and we were very surprised.
It was like, Wow, the bad Guy won.
Speaker 2 (47:37):
He said, Uh, going into it, I said, either Triple
H is gonna win.
Speaker 3 (47:43):
Or Mick Fully.
Speaker 1 (47:44):
Oh really yeah?
Speaker 2 (47:46):
Fully drop it the next night hmm. But when Fully
was the first one eliminated, I'm like, Okay, this.
Speaker 3 (47:58):
Is where we're going. Sense Triple H was a white
was white hot?
Speaker 2 (48:04):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (48:04):
Yeah? Absolutely?
Speaker 2 (48:07):
I think you could have argued you couldn't have went
wrong going with the Rock there.
Speaker 3 (48:12):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (48:13):
I think the greater crime was it being a fatal
four way.
Speaker 1 (48:20):
Yeah. I wasn't a big fan of that.
Speaker 2 (48:22):
McMahon in every corner too, No, I think it should
what it was overkill was?
Speaker 3 (48:33):
I think you just have it the Triple.
Speaker 2 (48:36):
H in the Rock, and because that then I think
you could argue you have Rock go OVERCA was moreover.
In the next month anyway, you had the Rock win,
and then the month for that, you had Triple H
(48:56):
win in the one of the sk iron Man matches
outside of Breton Sean Ever.
Speaker 1 (49:04):
Yeah, yes, yes, yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:07):
The Iron Man match between Triple H and the Rock
does not get talked about enough. Is like a wrestling Yeah.
Speaker 1 (49:17):
Uh, so much so that I kind of forgot that
it even happened until you mentioned it just now. But
you're right. Yeah, nobody ever talks about that one.
Speaker 3 (49:24):
You're right. Shawn Michaels was the special guest referee.
Speaker 1 (49:29):
Yeah, yeah, you're right. Nobody ever mentions that one. Nobody
thinks about it. It's interesting.
Speaker 2 (49:34):
Yeah, big things happened in that. That was Shawn's last
appearance until two thousand and one. Undertaker returned as the
American Badass. Yeah, and then in June at King of
the Ring, the Rock pined Shane mc mahan to become
(49:54):
WWF champion.
Speaker 9 (49:56):
H's a company, and I think you avoid all of
that if you just would have done Rock Triple H
WrestleMania two thousand, Rock goes over and then you can
do it.
Speaker 2 (50:13):
Then at Summer Slam you can have Triple H beat him,
wrangle beat him.
Speaker 1 (50:19):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 3 (50:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (50:21):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (50:22):
By the way, you mentioned the Undertaker. There's there's another
heel turn that I felt was a failure was when
uh when uh McMahon wanted Jim Ross to kiss his
ass to enter the Kiss Kiss My Ass Club and
and he didn't want to do it.
Speaker 2 (50:38):
The Darkness and I'm like, no, ministry a darkness. Undertaker
was amazing.
Speaker 1 (50:48):
Yeah, No, I liked that, but but I didn't like
when when as the American badass he turns on Jim
Ross and and uh and aligns with Vince and that
was it was very weak. And I thought at that
point in Taker's career, I was like, why do you
want to make him a heel now? Because at that
point I felt like he had reached that point where
(51:09):
the fans really didn't want to boo him. And I
think I was right. I don't think the fans ever
really did want to boo Undertaker at that point. And
I don't think that that particular heel run was effective.
And I don't think it lasted that long either. I
mean a little bit, but I remember, I remember he
started to turn, although his face turn back was somewhat gradual.
(51:30):
But I remember he had the match with Jeff Hardy
where he ended up showing respect to him at the end.
Speaker 3 (51:37):
What's that shook his hand?
Speaker 1 (51:40):
Yeah yeah, and that was like, oh, Taker, he's it
looks like he's going to be turning babyface and then
he did. And but yeah, that particular heel turn I
didn't think was effective at all. I was like, Ah,
what are you doing that with Taker for? At this point?
You know, that's how I felt about it, but
Uh, if you want to maybe they've become a bit
stale and you want to do something new with them,
or maybe it's or maybe it's Sometimes it's a matter
of finding out or trying to see if someone's better
suited to that role. Like The Rock, for example, comes
to mind. When the Rock was a white meat babyface
as Rocky my Via, and the fans hated him so
(00:21):
much and they didn't buy the gimmick. And there's Rocky,
Rocky is very adorable, adorable dog. But when the fans
weren't buying it, we're in bying in the Rocky my villa.
And then he turned heel, joining the Nation of Domination
and all that. It turned out he was a fantastic heel,
so good at being a heel that eventually he had
to turn face again because the fans found him to
(00:42):
be so entertaining in this new new role. And that
happens to you sometimes.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
I think the big thing with the Rock, and that's
a very good one to bring up, is it was
just such a shitty gimmick when.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
He was a baby face initially.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Yeah, yeah, it was just that it was bad, Oh
my goodness, it was bad. You know.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
There there are ideas that you hear some wrestlers talk
about as this was their original idea for me, and
I'm like, no, Like they wanted it turn the ring
master into the iceman Steve Austin and they had him
(01:30):
wear ice suit like mister Freeze.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Yeah. And he had the good sense to reject that idea.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
Physically told Bill.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
He said, point blank, Vince, that's the ships, yeah, which
is wrestling for I'm not doing that.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
That is a bad idea, right.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
They originally had called McK foley mankind the mutilator. I
didn't know that, yeah, and then mix like, well, that's
a lot for me to get out.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
Why don't we.
Speaker 4 (02:06):
Just short yeah? Yeah, I mean kid yeah, And he
was wrong, he was. I mean most of it.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Look, most of the time, the wrestlers are right because
they are in front of the fans nightly and it's
what are they gonna feel comfortable?
Speaker 3 (02:29):
What?
Speaker 1 (02:30):
What?
Speaker 3 (02:30):
What are they going to be comfortable? Do?
Speaker 5 (02:32):
We?
Speaker 3 (02:33):
M h If they're not comfortable, it's not going to
be believable.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Mm hmm. Like I he.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
Was harken back to the night on.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Thursday, Raw Thursday, most known for when Shawn Michaels lost
his smile.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
Yes, but something else happened on that that was rather
his story.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Rocky my Via beat Triple H for the Intercontinental title
then hurts him. Helmsley doc Hendrix is interviewing him and
the Crowns booming.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
You're in the interview. Yeah, that's when you know.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Yeah, well because at that point you've got nothing to
lose if you try. If you've got a babyface who's
being booed to that extent, you've got nothing to lose, right,
you might as well try him as a heel because
obviously what you're doing isn't working.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Or god, until he got injured, he injured his shoulder.
I think was the was the overwhelming story or what happened? Sorry,
the Rock injured his shoulder, came back and here we
(04:04):
are and he came back as a member of the
nation and domination.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
M yep yep, and got over huge. What's interesting about
that too, about the Rock is so if you fast
forward to years later, you know he's he becomes a
part timer because he's making movies, he's spending a lot
of time in Hollywood, and then he comes back as
(04:30):
a babyface because now he's this big Hollywood actor, and
the fans were starting to boo him, and they did,
and they ended up turning him again. But this time
it was interesting because they'd done something they'd never really
that I can recall really done before where the Rock.
(04:51):
So he's turning, but he's actually like acknowledging, I'm turning
heel this time because you guys clearly want me to
be a heel. Remember that promo where he said he
says to the audience, he says, do you realize where
we're all gonna go? If? I forget exactly how he
said the rest of it, but if because obviously he
didn't say if I turn heel. But he's like, you know,
(05:12):
you really want that version of the Rock or something
like that, and that's what they wanted, and that's what
he gave them. And then because he gave them that,
what happens Now he's a heel. But now some of
the crowd is cheering him as a heel because this
is the version of the Rock they wanted and now
they're getting it. So it's interesting. It's different than when
when when I first started watching it when I was
(05:33):
a kid, because you know, at some point it became
a lot of people would cheer, Like, if the heel
is entertaining enough and you're enjoying him as a heel,
you're going to end up cheering him even though he's
supposed to be a heel. The dynamics have changed a
lot over the years, but yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
They have, and.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
A lot of it is due to dirt sheets.
Speaker 3 (05:59):
The fans have become smartened up.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
But the detriment to that is the fans think they
know better than the wrestlers. And I think that was
a big thing that the Rock did when he did that,
is you don't really because I'm gonna you think you
caused this heel. Turn no, no, no, no, turn it,
(06:23):
and it's gonna be on you. And you know what,
I've been in Hollywood. I've been making movies. I don't
have to come back and be a professional wrestler. I
can just make movies. You all suck. Yeah, And it
worked perfectly, I mean because I first time he took
a hiatus to do movies, he came back and was
(06:45):
over like Rover as a babyface. Then the second time
he did it again over like Grover.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
He had in the match with Eddie Guerre on Raw.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Off of that that had a It was kind of
the precipice that built towards the office realizing Eddie can,
Eddie can run with this ball here and you sit
there and you're watching it. And the time it happened,
(07:27):
he came back dropped the belt to He had dropped
the belt to Brock and it was the night after
WrestleMania and he had finally been stone cold at WrestleMania
mm hmm. And he's like, who's next bil Bergadies, And
(07:52):
you know the rock is. I don't know if there's
a better professional wrestler at being able to play, to
be able to play.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
To the crowd no matter what they do.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Yeah, you can whip it like that. That's why I
feel not having him. And you've agreed with this. For
the John Cena heel turn was what killed the John
Cena heel turn.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
Sort of we'll get to that. We'll get to that.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
Under the when don't they work?
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Yeah, well we'll get to that because that's complicated. I
have some some feelings on that, but.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
What's episode on why that didn't work?
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Then I do agree that he'll turns happen because you're
really trying to generate new buzz into someone. That's also
why they That's also why conversely they may not work.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Mm hm, you know, yeah, if it's if it's forced.
A great example. When you say a heel turn that
doesn't work, the first thing that comes to mind for
me is Goldberg. When they tried that in WCW. That
did not work at all.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
It was one before it.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
One before w CW did and even the night had happened.
It wasn't a why the hell are they doing this?
I'm mad they're doing this.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
It was doesn't make sense. Dusty Rhodes, Oh.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
Yeah, yeah, that one was strange too. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
Well they did it.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
To be fair, their heart was in the right place
as to why they did it. They wanted to have
a veteran influence around Scott Hall and Louise Speccolei at all. Yeah,
even on the road. So how else do you explain
(10:15):
why Dusty is traveling with these two?
Speaker 1 (10:20):
Right?
Speaker 6 (10:21):
Uh?
Speaker 1 (10:22):
For those who don't know, uh, Scott Hall and Louis
Pacoley obviously both had pretty severe issues in terms of
I guess alcohol, right, I don't know, not so much pills,
but maybe I'm not sure you would know better than me.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
Definitely with Scott it was pills.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
It was pills, okay, yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
Him and Sean would take.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Yeah, that's right. Yeah, the Dusty Rhades one was was strange.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
That was so bad, and then it was still bad
that it was one of them that they just moved
him back to the announced booth with no explanation.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Yeah, they just aban, which isn't very satisfying.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
Fans were totally cool with it.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
Yeah, yeah, that was Yeah, that was a strange one.
I'd actually forgotten about that one.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
That was old Berg's was bad because they did it
after they ended the streak. And if you were to
end the streak, wide him off TV, take him off
TV for a while. No, they still wanted him around
because he was a draw. The problem is what do
(11:43):
you do with him the streak has ended? You want
to you should want to strap a rocket to Kevin
Nash's ass straight to the top.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Yeah, but they did.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
They did the finger poked.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
Oh that was dreadful. But but the other the other oh,
go ahead, thin.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
The golder heel turned because they tried it twice, but
it is second. The second I think it would have
worked because fans were starting to turn on him, but
he had to go and punch his hand through that
car window.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
I remember that. Yeah, yeah, he almost he almost severed
his hand. Yeah, yeah that.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
I mean that would have been the time to do.
And you haven't.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Joined you have him joined the nWo, and it would
have made sense.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
Yeah, but the problem and that.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
Incarnation of the nWo, had they went that route, would
have made a lot of sentence. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
The problem with the first one.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
You had Goldberg got injured shortly after Brett got injured
ironically by Goldberg.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
Yeah, so about Brett, and.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
Without Goldberg you had Steiner, Nash and Jerry.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Well, the biggest problem with the first one to me
was when I remember that the promo, the big, the
big promo, Goldberg comes out and we're gonna hear from
him now is a heel and he goes, uh, he
says something like, so everyone's asking me, why'd you do it?
I'll tell you why, why the hell not? And it's like, oh,
that's great, okay. I mean that literally is what he said.
(13:40):
And it's like, this is some lazy writing here, and
there was never any he never offered an explanation. It
was stupid, very very stupid.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
It was, And that's the interesting thing about it is
it never made sense.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Yeah, yeah, just.
Speaker 3 (14:00):
Was never done right.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
So do you have a favorite heel turn?
Speaker 3 (14:09):
Yeah, it's got to be Brett. Yeah, it's gotta be Brett.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
When uh Now, I assume you're talking about the double
turn with Austin that happened in the ring during their match.
Speaker 5 (14:23):
Is that?
Speaker 1 (14:24):
Is that? What are you referring to that specifically? I
assume you're not referring to any of the several however
many that happened in w c W where they had
him turning almost as often as the Big Show. I
assume you're not talking about that.
Speaker 7 (14:37):
I'm Austin one because that one and then the next
night that promo he cut, Yeah, and to.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Come out and cut the promo with Owen and Davey
in the middle of their match.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Yeah Jesus.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
And then it was great and you that there he
gives like that cold callous stare is Davy and Owen
are hugging him?
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Yeah? Yeah, god, this is yeah? Yeah, No, that was
that was excellent. Of course.
Speaker 3 (15:25):
My favorite Hogan joining the nw.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
O Yeah yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
And one thing that I'll say about that is a
lot of people have said that this is a detriment
to it, but I think it actually made it better.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
It was a little nuanced part of it.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Mm hmm, what's up.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
A little nuanced part of it is when Hogan's will
walking down and Bobby Heenan on Commentary goes, but who
side is he on?
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Yeah, I didn't care for that, Bud it because.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
That Bobby Bobby for he did Bastagan in Cities. If
he said something like that, I think it would have
spoiled it.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
See, I think, uh, well, I liked one of the things.
I didn't like that he said that, but I don't
think it ruined it by any means either. But I
do think that one of the things that made the
Hogan turn so effective was Bobby Heenan then on commentary,
not just then, but but week after week saying, you know,
Bobby Heenan, the classic heel manager, saying over and over
(16:49):
he'd say it every week. I told you, I told
you who this guy really was all these years, I
told you who hul Cogan really was, and you didn't listen.
And I was, and he was. He was kind of vindicated,
and it was That was a cool part that I
think a lot of people missed a lot of people
missed that because nobody ever brings that part up. But that,
to me, that's a key element in what made the
(17:11):
Hogan turn so effective.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
It wasn't for Bobby Heenan.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
I don't think hul Cogan would have been as over
as he was.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
Yeah, Bobby Heenan.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
As much as the Iron Cheek and Rodny Piper jump
started whole comania, Bob.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Heenan carried it. Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
For it to be successful, you have to have that
monster heel and a lot of the moles WWF had
at that time as it was in the eighties, you don't.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
You don't sit there and how do I want to
word this? They didn't have great mic skills mm hmmm.
Who had to have a mouthpiece with him? That mouthpiece
for a lot of them was Bobby Heenan.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
Yes, oh yeah, yep.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Bobby Heenan is what really made the Andre Hogan feud work.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
Oh yeah, absolutely, yeah, because and didn't talk much him.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Yeah, Bobby, you don't have that prespice for Andre turning. Uh,
you have the person that was in Andre's ear.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Oh, it was so great when when Andrea and and
Heenan walk out on Piper's pit and Hogan's like, what
are you doing with this guy?
Speaker 2 (18:41):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (18:41):
It was perfect. It was so well done.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
What's that the contract signing?
Speaker 1 (18:49):
Oh yeah that was good too.
Speaker 3 (18:52):
If you're gonna sign it, brother, sign it. I don't
mean to hear him.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Yeah. No, the whole thing was so good. The match
was shit, but the build up was incredible. I mean
to me, I mean that was just you know, and
I was a kid. I was like, Wow, I was
just enthralled by all of it. Should we talk about uh,
(19:20):
should we talk about John Cena? We can, because there's
a lot to unpack with that one.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
I I think it goes back to my original point.
M hm, sena mh is uh. The original point I
had with in regards to John Cena in the Heel
(19:52):
Turn or anyone doing He'll Turn I'm sorry, is the
talent has to believe in it, and I don't. John
fully was fully committed.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
To being a heel.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
I think that hurt it.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
I think a key element of it was the Rock
in not having the Rock there after the heel Turn
killed it because the in this started is the Rock
wanded Cody's soul, right, John sold his soul to the Rock, right, But.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
Yeah, it just made the whole thing bad.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
So here's what I what I think, and this is
I and again, and we talked about it before. I'm
definitely in the minority. I'm on an island on this.
I know. Within the IWC. I liked the heel seeing
a turn, well, I love the I think everyone liked
the turn like that moment. That moment was seismic, but
I liked that. I don't agree that he wasn't committed.
(21:07):
I think he was. I think that, but I think
that what people didn't like, what a lot of people
didn't like, I think they wanted seeing it to be
more sort of overtly evil, or they were looking for
something that he wasn't quite giving us. And this is
what I think. I said this to you before I'll
say it again. I liked that he didn't overplay it.
(21:28):
He underplayed it, and I thought that was cool. It's
like when he came out and he said, what you
expect me to go back to my old music or
have new music, or you expect different outfits or whatever,
you get nothing and that minimalism. I liked that whole thing.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
I think the promos were very good. Oh you do okay, yeah,
I just think not having the Rock killed it. John
Seml could have on anything. John Tena is a great
mic guy, one of the best.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
To absolutely absolutely, but you.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
If you're going to have a person be a prespice
for a heel turn, that person consistently be around.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
It helps. I think they could have gotten around that though,
I really do. And part of why I think if
they needed to tweak as much as I was enjoying it,
I would have tweaked a couple things, one of them
being and I think because Sina is so good on
the way, he could have pulled this off, you know
if really because they didn't play up enough the element
(22:44):
of spin it a little bit as I didn't sell
my soul to the Rock. I sold my soul to Hollywood,
and they could have even with the Rock not being around,
they could have drawn on the past and said, you know,
this is what they could have done. And Sina totally
could have pulled it off. They could have had seen
(23:06):
out there saying listen, I criticized the Rock all those
years ago, but now I get it. Now, I understand
why the real reason he sold his soul to Hollywood,
now that I'm in that position, I finally get it.
So now I'm doing the same damn thing and you
all don't like it, but this is who I really
am something like that. So even without the Rock around,
(23:30):
if you adjust the narrative, he didn't sell his soul
to the Rock. He's just following the Rocks example. He's
now sold his soul to Hollywood. I think with that
little adjustment, I think it would have worked better. But
they didn't do that. And listen when I see all
the stuff he's doing now now that he's gone back
(23:50):
to being a babyface, it is all really good. I
loved his match with aj Styles, so I get it.
So maybe it is just as well that it didn't
work out and they changed him, because we are getting
some really good stuff. But I will say this to
everyone who says, oh, it was a failure. They should
never have done the heel turn to begin with. I
would just say this, Think about this, even if you
(24:13):
hated everything about it. If they hadn't if in an
alternate universe, says no, John Cena, heeltern right, If they
hadn't done that, we would have been deprived of an
awesome moment because Seena's heel turn in my opinion that
moment it was seismic. It was people were talking about
it on par with the Hogan heel turn, and everything
(24:36):
about it was so perfectly done. The way they zoom
in on his face when he's hugging Cody and the
Rock is looking at him and they make eye contact
and seen his expression changes and he goes from smiling
to that sinister look, and oh my god. It was
so so good, and we if they hadn't gone for it,
if they hadn't at least tried that, we would have
(24:57):
been deprived of that amazing moment, which, by the way,
they got a lot of mainstream media attention. I'm sure
you did.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
I know.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
I talked to people. I heard from people who are like, hey, Matt,
what's this all about. I saw something on the news
about John Cena is a villain now, and I haven't
watched wrestling in a long time, so I haven't kept
up with what's going on. Tell me about it. I mean,
we would have been deprived of all of that if
they hadn't gone for it.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
I had people come up to me at work and
they're like, what they do with John Cena?
Speaker 1 (25:25):
Yeah, isn't that cool?
Speaker 2 (25:31):
But you then have to I felt any way that
I had to go into nuances of the business.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
It's a lot to explain. Like if you're talking to
somebody who either has never really been into wrestling or
they just haven't watched it in a really long time,
it is a lot to explain to somebody. Yes, it's
a lot to get into at the water cooler.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Yeah, yeah, we only have a fifteen minute break.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
Well why would they do that. Well, he's wiring, but
wrestling's fake.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
Well yeah, it is a lot to get into. But anyway,
the point being, I'm really glad they at least tried it, because,
no matter how you feel about it, that's one of
those awesome moments that we're all gonna remember for the
rest of our lives.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
You know, when he told the kid, we're in a
toxic relationship.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
Oh my god, Yes, I love that. But I even
loved I even loved just the subtle things, like I said,
because he underplayed it, just the things like, oh, you
know what I loved was that backstage promo where he
encounters Jay Uso and he just just totally deadpan just
says to him, you know, if you lose to Logan Paul.
(26:50):
That would almost ruin wrestling, just the way that he
delivered the lie. It was so deadpan, like I know,
and people were like, I heard Brian, and uh what what?
He's talking like a robot. There's not even in any
emotion there. It's like, dude, don't you get it. That's
the thing he's he's he's under playing it. And it's awesome.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
Getting the hustle, loyalty, respect, John Cena, We're getting Sina.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
He's going through the motions. He's just giving us just
enough because that's all he has to do.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
Yeah. Yeah, I loved it, but but again I'm in
the minority.
Speaker 5 (27:31):
To it is to have his first promo why happened
at an international show.
Speaker 3 (27:40):
Yeah, I think that kind of killed it too.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
I think that that should have been saved for really
big ww market like New York City, somewhere on the
Upper East Coast, or like a wrestling town like Chicago,
or uh, you know, even Dallas Fort Worth area could
have done it well.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
I also, and we talked about this before too, I
also would have tweaked that a little bit too, because
I wouldn't have I think they should have waited what
I think they should have. I think he should have
maintained being a heel going into that match with Cody,
and then after losing the title to Cody, then maybe
turn babyface by you know, raising Cody's hand and being cool,
and then the next night do a promo where instead
(28:28):
of saying because I didn't like when he I didn't
like when he turned back and he said, you know,
I let somebody, he made an obvious reference to the Rock,
which was cool, you know, I believed in somebody who
abandoned me or however he said it, and then he
but then he said something about they talked me into
making shocking television. Because then it was almost like he's
coming out and saying, you know, I just did this
(28:49):
to make good TV, which is kind of borderline breaking,
k fabe. He could have said something like he could
have been a little more vulnerable, and he did show
some vulnerability saying I was afraid you would all forget
about me and this and that. But what he should
have said something, I think, something like I felt like
I had to do this, like I had to be bad,
I had to cheat to get because I was so
(29:10):
obsessed with with with you know, winning this title one
more time. When he getting to seventeen. I was so
obsessed with it. I let that take me over, and
I realized I was wrong now and I'm sorry. Something
like that would have been better, like.
Speaker 3 (29:25):
The whole good TV line.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Because keep in mind, around the time he said that
was when the controversy regarding untold had occurred. Oh unreal, Yes,
when that controversy really started kicking out. So I think
the line there, but I get I see your issue
(29:48):
with it. It was kind of like I never thought
John Cena would be a sellout. That's almost kind of
a detriment.
Speaker 6 (29:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
Like, I'm cool with you saying you were tempted by
winning seventeen, you didn't think you could do it without
hell YadA, YadA, YadA, yah YadA. But then when you
went to that line, I get it. It's like, oh,
so Johnsen is a sellout?
Speaker 3 (30:11):
Are there are there ever any real heroes anymore?
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (30:15):
I guess not. It's the end of the Night of
the Living Dead, right.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
Oh So I have a question. Uh, And if you
don't want to speak for him, I get it, but
I'll ask you, Uh, how what about Austin? How does
how did he feel about it?
Speaker 3 (30:34):
I looked it. I'm pretty sure. Yeah, you liked it.
Speaker 8 (30:40):
I think he got kinda tired of it, yeah, the
midway point, like okay, yeah, but.
Speaker 3 (30:51):
Look, I'm even to be I fought.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
Similarities between Austin and I at them when Brett turned.
Speaker 6 (31:02):
I didn't turn on Brett right, of course, I like
wanted to wear clothes with the Canadian flag on it
in school.
Speaker 3 (31:15):
Always when I.
Speaker 5 (31:16):
Was in uh eighth grade, telling him it sucks yeah,
and copying Brett Hart's statements from wrong about why America
sucks from.
Speaker 3 (31:33):
The United States of America. I'd stick it right here
in Taft Middle School.
Speaker 4 (31:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
Wow, Yeah, I loved it.
Speaker 3 (31:46):
I loved it.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
I was upset that we didn't get Heart Foundation shirts.
Speaker 3 (31:53):
Yeah, you know, Brett. I loved every minute of it.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
And I thought, and I think a lot of it
because to me it made sense.
Speaker 3 (32:05):
It's like, you're booing this guy. Why are you booing in?
You're booing in?
Speaker 2 (32:10):
Because any heel turn also has to resonate in reality.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
Yeah, it has to. There has to be a logic
to it. It can't just be. It can't just be, oh,
this person is evil all of a sudden, right.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
You can't people can't sit here and say, oh, well,
you can't just do it. People heard the booze for
Brett people. Brett become kind of a cry baby, so
it made sense. But you could also argue, but Brett
(32:44):
is getting screwed constantly. Yeah, like me, why he's mad?
How dare you boo this man? The injustice is being
done to him?
Speaker 1 (32:56):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Yeah, so yeah, if you are true, Brett Hart Pay
definitely were well ride in that wave.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
In some ways, Brett was ahead of his time or
and that that whole storyline was ahead of its time
in the sense that you know, because we've talked about
how you know, I to me personally like we're in
the golden age of wrestling right now because we see
a level of nuance with characters, uh and and their
stories and that we have not seen very much before
(33:30):
now in my opinion, but I feel like that was
a that was like a precursor to all of that,
because Brett Hart had become he was never one dimensional,
but now he was this really nuanced character where yeah,
you know, he's a heel, but you could definitely be
sympathetic and see that he has a point. And they
did this innovative thing. Of course, where he's a heel
(33:52):
in the United States, but he's still the hero everywhere else,
not only in Canada but internationally. So so that was
really innovative too. And he was absolutely fantastic through all
of it. I mean his promos, those were the best
promos of his career. I think, just fantastic.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
America, they say loving or leave it, Well, I'm loving
leaving it.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
Oh yeah, all of it was so good. All of
it was so good.
Speaker 3 (34:26):
In Canada, we care about family values. Brett. Three years ago,
you were bashing your brother's face into his steel cage, right.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
No, everything about it was. Everything about it was great.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
That's my favorite heel turn is because I didn't think
it was amazing. I think, uh, another one I loved.
He wasn't really a heel turn. It was more of
a tweener.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
Thang sting when.
Speaker 3 (35:04):
They thought he was going to defect to the nWo.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
Well yeah, I mean but he never actually.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
But it was a tweener promo and I loved it
because and then they then he didn't see him for
like six months.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
Yeah yeah, yeah yeah, And.
Speaker 3 (35:23):
It was how they did that was awesome.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
Yes, very good.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
The entire build up because even going into Starcade. I'm
sure you remember this. There was a little undercurrent, what
if he really is a member of the nWo and
this is all boy by Hogan, is like they do
for stages, lays down for Hogan. How ironic that that
(35:52):
would end up being the final male inn w CW's coffin.
Speaker 3 (35:57):
Somebody laid down for Hogan, right A couple two three
years later?
Speaker 2 (36:06):
Yeah, so yeah, that's that was I love the tweeen sting.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
Yeah yeah, yeah, that's another great example too, where they
were able to really present a character in a nuanced
way and in a complex way and not just one dimensional. Yeah, yeah,
that's a that's a great example. Any other notable US
heel turns we haven't talked about. I mean, I feel
(36:37):
like we've talked about the biggest ones.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
But yes, yeah, I'm trying to think we talked about
andre one one that never just it just went over
like the Titanic hitting an Iceberg.
Speaker 3 (36:54):
Stone cold Steve Austin.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
Yeah, that ones complicated too, though.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
Example of whenning does it work, never should have done it.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
I agree with you, except for one thing. You know how,
when I talked like I talked about sina I talked
about some of what we would have been deprived of,
deprived of if we didn't get the turn. So with Austin,
if we hadn't gotten that turn, we would have been
deprived of things like, Oh, I'll tell you one of
Jenny's favorite promos that she stumbled upon YouTube one day,
(37:31):
the promo where they're they're doing the uh, you know,
the invasion storyline, and and Vince's backstage and he's talking
like you know that, guys, guys, this is an invasion,
and Austin goes invasion and Fitz is like, we got
to support each other, and Austin's like support each other
and it's so funny.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
Undertaker the whole time is biting his lower lip because
he's trying.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
So that's the thing, is like, yeah, I agree with you.
The turn was terrible, but we we would have missed
out because Austin.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
Turns out that is some favorite theme music is a
lion Stone Cold Steve Austin theme music.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
Yeah, yeah, that was good too. That was good. But
but he did like some of the stuff he was
doing with Kurt Angle. I mean, he he really Austin
got to really kind of show off his comedic chops.
What's that? Oh the hell? Yeah, yeah, there's a lot
of so, you know, people people should on the Austin turn.
(38:36):
And I do think in the broad sense it was
a bad idea, but we did get some good stuff
out of that, We really did, So.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
I just think that I think there was probably a
better way they could have done it. I don't think
they needed events for it happened. I think has had
Austin just beat the hell out of the lock and
screw him over in that match. Yeah, I think that's
(39:09):
one way.
Speaker 3 (39:10):
But if you don't have Vince, then you don't.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
I think it went off the rails when Triple H
blew his squad out m I think had Triple H
not gotten injured, you could have salvaged it.
Speaker 3 (39:27):
And that's one of the.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
Biggest what its ever in pro wrestling history, because what
if Triple H would have been part of the invasion angle?
Speaker 3 (39:35):
What what it? I mean?
Speaker 2 (39:38):
If Triple H would have been involved, you might argue
they could have gotten haul in Hatch right in Sean
Michaels and done something, or you could have had a
third group. You could have had the Click come back
and say hey, we're back right right.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
Yeah. Also, It's interesting with the Austin heel turn. You know,
there's the inevitable face turn, and I honestly don't even
remember how the face turn happened. I cannot all all
I can recall, so obviously it wasn't very memorable. All
(40:23):
I can really remember is it almost was like like
like a gradual sort of they just sort of phased
him back into being a babyface after a while. I
don't even remember anything particular about it.
Speaker 2 (40:38):
How it happened is they had that Winner Take All
It Survivor series. Okay, they had Kurt Angle turn on
the Alliance to cost them the match. Okay, they had
Angle over Austin in the rock pinned Austin and it okay.
Speaker 3 (40:59):
So then the next night is.
Speaker 2 (41:01):
When Rick Flair returned and because Vince was just gonna
give Kurt Angle the WWF Championship, and uh Ric Flair
is like, no, I'm a co owner with you because
kids sold their stock to me. I remember that, I'm
rehiring stone Cold. Then you're gonna face stone Cold for
(41:22):
that title?
Speaker 1 (41:23):
Okay?
Speaker 3 (41:25):
And that got him back over and then you know,
about six months later, stone Cold walked out.
Speaker 1 (41:33):
Oh yes, yep, yep, you know, it's funny when I
think about Flair in that whole angle. Flair comes in
and supposedly he's co owner, and all I remember about
that is I remember, like, I remember Flair coming in.
I remember as a big moment, and I remember Vince
pulling his ear like Carol Burnett used to do when
(41:54):
he was upset when Rick Flair came out, and uh,
and I remember Flair saying something to him like that,
remember when your kids sold their stock to a consortium. Well,
the consortium is me, and now I'm your good. You know.
It was all very confluted. But that's all I remember.
I don't even remember the Stone Cold part of that.
Speaker 3 (42:15):
Yeah it was. And then at Vengeance they had a
four million tournament.
Speaker 2 (42:23):
Rock took on Chris Jericho for the big gold bell,
Stone Cold took on Kurt Angle for the WWF title.
The winners advanced, Stone Cold took on Chris Jericho for
the undisputed WWF Championship. Yeah, and Uo screwed over stone Cold.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
That okay that I remember now, Yeah yep.
Speaker 2 (42:51):
Then that began the downfall because instead of putting Austin
with Hogan, they put him with Haul.
Speaker 1 (43:01):
Yeah yep. Oh, I just thought of a heel turned.
I can't believe I didn't think of this one till
just now, because it involves my favorite wrestler of all time,
Macho Man Randy Savage. Even though it was predictable the
mega power is exploding, but it was still great. I
(43:22):
loved it. I loved that that whole thing, Hogan versus
Macho Man.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
I gave two the promos. The promos we got out
of Macho Man were just amazing.
Speaker 1 (43:35):
Yes, oh yeah, oh Cogan, I hate your goods. Those
promos are incredible.
Speaker 3 (43:45):
Yeah, lost in your eyes.
Speaker 2 (43:48):
Yeah, especially that last It's to my right, no Puka
Maniacs to.
Speaker 3 (43:55):
My left, Yes, and everyone of them.
Speaker 2 (43:59):
He was, which is bust and sweat or you're like.
Speaker 1 (44:08):
And the very last promo, the very last promo that
ared on television right before He's like it was it
was him at his absolute most intense, like.
Speaker 3 (44:20):
Old Googan, I hate your guts.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
Yeah, oh so good, so good. And Hogan, you know,
to give him credit, I mean he played his role
well and all that too. Macho Man was just untouchable,
so good.
Speaker 2 (44:36):
I I'm a minority I and we've talked about this
in our Macho Man episode.
Speaker 3 (44:44):
Yeah, Macho Man should have went over.
Speaker 1 (44:49):
Oh, I would have loved that. Well, he was my favorite,
so I wanted him to anyway, but I knew that
he wouldn't, But I would have loved if he had.
Speaker 2 (44:56):
It would have made perfect sense. You have n't dropped elbows.
But at that time they were thinking not just of
WrestleMania five, but WrestleMania six, and we can play you're Hogan.
Speaker 3 (45:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:13):
Well also, I mean at that time, it was unthinkable
for the heel to go over in the main event
of WrestleMania. You know what I mean. I mean that
didn't happen n till Triple H with Triple H was
the first heel to go over in a main event
at WrestleMania. And I remember even when that happened. Which
one was that because I get confused on the numbers, but.
Speaker 2 (45:37):
You could argue nine was the first one where a
heel went over.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
Is that the one? I'm thinking? Wait, who went over
and beat Brett? Oh Stone called beet Brett. No, I'm
talking about in the main event though.
Speaker 2 (45:55):
At WrestleMania nine at Caesar's Palace, Yokozuna beat Brad Hart
for the w WFG.
Speaker 1 (46:02):
Oh, I'm sorry, Eric, your my cut out a little bit.
I thought I thought you said when h I thought
you said something else. Oh yeah, yeah, well yeah but
that doesn't. But but you still have Hogan come out and.
Speaker 3 (46:15):
He's still happy and over in the main event.
Speaker 1 (46:19):
Well that's true, that's true. But you know what I mean,
when the when the final when the final image of
the show is a heel victorious. I mean Triple H
was the first one. Oh it was WrestleMania two thousand,
wasn't it.
Speaker 2 (46:37):
I'm trying to think because I watched every WrestleMania. Yeah,
so I'm trying to think back nine ten, Brett eleven,
uh bam eleven was Lawrence Taylor because a Lawrence Taylor
(46:58):
was in the main event that year.
Speaker 3 (47:00):
Yeah, with Bambagh.
Speaker 2 (47:03):
Twelve was Sean, thirteen was SID No. Thirteen Sid was
the heel No. Thirteen Taker one. Yeah, yeah, super Beats
fourteen Austin fifteen Austin two thousand, Triple.
Speaker 1 (47:24):
H Yeah, yep, yep, in that Fatal four way because
I was and I remember being very surprised. I remember
watching it live with a friend and we were very surprised.
It was like, Wow, the bad Guy won.
Speaker 2 (47:37):
He said, Uh, going into it, I said, either Triple
H is gonna win.
Speaker 3 (47:43):
Or Mick Fully.
Speaker 1 (47:44):
Oh really yeah?
Speaker 2 (47:46):
Fully drop it the next night hmm. But when Fully
was the first one eliminated, I'm like, Okay, this.
Speaker 3 (47:58):
Is where we're going. Sense Triple H was a white
was white hot?
Speaker 2 (48:04):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (48:04):
Yeah? Absolutely?
Speaker 2 (48:07):
I think you could have argued you couldn't have went
wrong going with the Rock there.
Speaker 3 (48:12):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (48:13):
I think the greater crime was it being a fatal
four way.
Speaker 1 (48:20):
Yeah. I wasn't a big fan of that.
Speaker 2 (48:22):
McMahon in every corner too, No, I think it should
what it was overkill was?
Speaker 3 (48:33):
I think you just have it the Triple.
Speaker 2 (48:36):
H in the Rock, and because that then I think
you could argue you have Rock go OVERCA was moreover.
In the next month anyway, you had the Rock win,
and then the month for that, you had Triple H
(48:56):
win in the one of the sk iron Man matches
outside of Breton Sean Ever.
Speaker 1 (49:04):
Yeah, yes, yes, yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:07):
The Iron Man match between Triple H and the Rock
does not get talked about enough. Is like a wrestling Yeah.
Speaker 1 (49:17):
Uh, so much so that I kind of forgot that
it even happened until you mentioned it just now. But
you're right. Yeah, nobody ever talks about that one.
Speaker 3 (49:24):
You're right. Shawn Michaels was the special guest referee.
Speaker 1 (49:29):
Yeah, yeah, you're right. Nobody ever mentions that one. Nobody
thinks about it. It's interesting.
Speaker 2 (49:34):
Yeah, big things happened in that. That was Shawn's last
appearance until two thousand and one. Undertaker returned as the
American Badass. Yeah, and then in June at King of
the Ring, the Rock pined Shane mc mahan to become
(49:54):
WWF champion.
Speaker 9 (49:56):
H's a company, and I think you avoid all of
that if you just would have done Rock Triple H
WrestleMania two thousand, Rock goes over and then you can
do it.
Speaker 2 (50:13):
Then at Summer Slam you can have Triple H beat him,
wrangle beat him.
Speaker 1 (50:19):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 3 (50:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (50:21):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (50:22):
By the way, you mentioned the Undertaker. There's there's another
heel turn that I felt was a failure was when
uh when uh McMahon wanted Jim Ross to kiss his
ass to enter the Kiss Kiss My Ass Club and
and he didn't want to do it.
Speaker 2 (50:38):
The Darkness and I'm like, no, ministry a darkness. Undertaker
was amazing.
Speaker 1 (50:48):
Yeah, No, I liked that, but but I didn't like
when when as the American badass he turns on Jim
Ross and and uh and aligns with Vince and that
was it was very weak. And I thought at that
point in Taker's career, I was like, why do you
want to make him a heel now? Because at that
point I felt like he had reached that point where
(51:09):
the fans really didn't want to boo him. And I
think I was right. I don't think the fans ever
really did want to boo Undertaker at that point. And
I don't think that that particular heel run was effective.
And I don't think it lasted that long either. I
mean a little bit, but I remember, I remember he
started to turn, although his face turn back was somewhat gradual.
(51:30):
But I remember he had the match with Jeff Hardy
where he ended up showing respect to him at the end.
Speaker 3 (51:37):
What's that shook his hand?
Speaker 1 (51:40):
Yeah yeah, and that was like, oh, Taker, he's it
looks like he's going to be turning babyface and then
he did. And but yeah, that particular heel turn I
didn't think was effective at all. I was like, Ah,
what are you doing that with Taker for? At this point?
You know, that's how I felt about it, but
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