January 30, 2022 • 40 mins
In this episode of Training Montage, Mike and Lance take a look at the game behind the game with Bennett Miller’s Moneyball. They discuss how to make a sports movie without any sports, how Brad Pitt’s real-life counterpart Billy Beane changed the game of baseball, and what could have been if Steven Soderbergh had directed the movie.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:03):
Welcome to the Nerd Polite. Hello, and welcome to Training Montage, the
show on the Nerd Party where wetalk about sports movies. I'm Mike and
(00:29):
it's been a while since we've recorded. Sorry for the delay. You know,
we took the way you know,you know the holidays you know,
as I'm sure they were for youtoo. It's like holidays are rough,
but holidays during COVID are just it'sit's just a huge mess, right,
(00:52):
Yeah, I mean I feel likethis year was worse than last year because
last year it was like, well, we know what's going on on?
Do we know that? You know, basically nothing is going to happen.
But this year it's like everything's goingto happen or not, you know,
and it's just like this kind oflike middle ground of like what do we
do? And yeah, it's justa big mess. Yeah, it was
(01:18):
a lot um And for me,like I you know, I started like
a like a head Christmas gigs againfor the first time in like a long
time. Yea, So that wasthat kept me even more busy than I
normally am. So yeah, becauseI mean, you're you're you're on your
winter break, but you're not reallyon your winter break when and stuff like
that, right, Yeah, yeah, well that's cool though. Yeah,
(01:42):
And a lot of has happened inthe world of sports since last we spoke.
That is true. Football season isis wrapping up. We're into the
playoffs right now. Your Raiders havebeen on sort of a roller coaster over
the past few weeks. So thispast season, yeah, my goodness.
(02:05):
But yeah, I mean certainly,I mean what some people are considering like
the greatest game of all time lastweek. Yeah, and then yesterday,
as of this recording, they wereeliminated in the first round. Yeah.
Sorry, it happens. It's allgood. Yeah, it's all good.
You know, baseball doesn't exist,and no probably won't anytime soon. No,
(02:30):
there's been zero progress made in anyof the meetings or winter talks.
Yeah, it's it's ridiculous. Howlike they're like, oh, you know,
after after like four weeks, they'relike, or more than four weeks,
like six weeks, they're like,there's progress being made. We're getting
word that the owners have a proposalwhich they're going to pitch to the players
(02:54):
in a couple of weeks. It'slike, wow, that's the progress which
is being made. There is noway this season that's happening. That is
correct. But at least we havebasketball, right, that's well. I
mean you have basketball. Oh,I have college basketball. Basketball. Yeah,
(03:15):
college basketball is good. Right.You have the Bulls who are a
good team. They are. Yeah, I was, you know, I've
been you know, I don't knowmuch about basketball, but I'm starting to
learn. I followed them pretty closelylast year when they weren't good, and
now this year they are good.And you know, I see there at
the top of the conference and everythinglike that. And then you know,
(03:36):
they played the Nets, who arelike the number two team, and I'm
like, this is going to beamazing, and then you know they just
got crushed. Yeah, they gotblasted. And then the next day they
played Golden State, you know,also got So you know, that's what
it's like watching the Rockets because likewhen we lose, we lose. Um,
(03:57):
you know, I know it's Iget that it's a young team.
We have four kids on the teamwho are who are literally kids, they're
still teenagers. But like we can'taverage getting lot, you know, getting
beat by twenty Like it's annoying.Yeah. Yeah, I've been there for
sure, But I'm super excited aboutthis Bulls team, though I have to
(04:18):
say it's a it's it's very theylook good encouraging. Yeah. Yeah.
So you know, while we maynot have baseball to watch, we can
at least watch baseball movies for sure. And one of the very best,
in my opinion, is Bennett Miller'sMoneyball starring Brad Pitt from twenty eleven.
(04:44):
And yeah, this is a moviewhich is based on a non fiction book
written by Michael Lewis about the OaklandA's in two thousand and two, two
thousand and three, that area,yeah, the two thousand three season,
and you know, they take someliberties with it and everything, but essentially
it's about a team which had nomoney and needed to try to find a
(05:10):
way to compete with teams like theYankees, which have lots and lots of
money, like three times as muchmoney. And how do you do that,
Well, you use math to findplayers which are not properly valued in
order to you know, put togethera team of of misfit toys or whatever
(05:33):
and still have some success on thefield. So, Lance, I guess
my first question is what do youthink about the concept of moneyball and statistics,
which have sort of, you know, really now since this movie taken
(05:57):
a pretty big part in Yeah,well, I think like the use of
of this right, like the youknow analytics, you know, this is
kind of the catch all term forall of this now. Um, it
has definitely really taken off since themovie came out. But teams were some
teams were using it because sometimes that'sall they could do, right, But
(06:21):
now the good teams are using it. UM. At the end of the
movie, they you know, theyhave that little blurb about like how Billy
turned down the Red Sox offered tobecome GM and uh, the Red Sox
in OH four went ahead and weren'twon the World Series and they're like in
part using you know, the thesystem that he invented or that he that
he implemented. And I'm like whenI read that, I was like,
(06:43):
well, not really. I mean, the Red Sox were stacked. Let's
also not forget about that, Likeso uh they like David Ortiz is still
on that team, so as MannyRamirez, Pedro, uh, Keith Folk.
Uh, you know, they hadthey had players, So that was
that's the reason why they won.UM. But the use of analytics though
as as far as how a teamoperates, what they do and how they
(07:08):
perform and how like the system ofhow they they play the game, uh
is completely different now than it wasin twenty eleven because now teams, their
entire identity and how they perform intheir sport is based off of the math
and the science that gonna go intoit. UM. You hear all the
time on like you know, likein basketball for example, UH, you
(07:30):
know, on T and T theythey hate the use of analytics. But
there are certain teams in basketball,um they're all about using it. The
rockets up until a few years agowhen we had James Harden UH and Mike
DAYTONI, we're all about the analyticalaspect of everything. And there's like,
look, a three pointer is morethan two. So we're going to shoot
tons of threes, and we're andif we shoot a two, we're it's
(07:50):
only going to be the highest percentageones, which are layups. And then
and then if we you know,don't shoot those, we're just going to
get you know, we're just gonnago to the free throw line, like
you know, where you're unpat itin your progress to to make it make
a shot. So they're playing thepercentages to you know, gain points rather
than in like which is what theywere doing in this movie, like we're
trying to manufacture runs. And it'sin a lot of ways, it's the
(08:13):
same you know. Uh, it'sthe same strategy that you should have when
making your fantasy fantasy team, right, You're trying to you're trying to get
the most points that you possibly can, and so you're not always going to
be able to get the you know, the best player, but if you
can, if you can get whatyou would think would be the amount of
points that would get you a wineach week, then that is what matters.
(08:35):
Um. So it's just it's justit's crazy to think about how back
then this was a foreign concept butnow it's everywhere. Yeah, and that
was one of the things which youknow what when the book came out,
you know, which was I don'tknow, I'm guessing like two thousand and
five something like that, you know, because they had to be a couple
of years after the season. Umthere, it's not like the reality was
(09:01):
that you know, they had agreat team and then you know, they
got torn apart and they needed tofind a way to rebuild it and that's
when they adopted this strategy, likethey had been using it for years at
that point. And you know,but obviously this makes the for good drama,
you know, telling it in thisparticular way. I mean. The
(09:22):
other aspect which people always bring upis like nobody ever talks about their pitching.
I was, oh, man,I was just about to say that
because like because I had to,I had been when I was watching the
movie, I had to double checkthe rods because they're only talking about like,
they spent a lot of time talkingabout Scott Hadeberg, and they spent
a lot of time talking about DavidJustice, who wasn't in the end up
on the team at the end ofthe season. Um. But I was
(09:43):
like, wait a second. Theyhad mcguel Tahda on that team and their
pitching was stacked. They had zeroMark Muller and Tim Hudson, Like come
on, yeah, their pitching staffwas amazing. But you know, and
the book is way way, waymore like analytic, almost like a textbook.
You know, there's not any realdrama in there. It's you know,
(10:05):
all about this process, you know, and it's like, okay,
you're doing that, Yeah, yougot to figure out, you know,
and there was much more of afocus on offense and everything. And you
know, while all that's true,you know, there was like this reaction
like after the book came out fromthese smaller teams that were using this philosophy
(10:26):
where they were like you literally youlet someone follow you around and you told
them all of our secrets, likewhat's wrong with you? You know,
because then it did catch on,you know, and everybody started using it.
I mean the White Sox you know, obviously my favorite team even in
(10:48):
two thousand and five when they wonthe World Series with you know, small
ball, like that goes way againstlike everything that they were you know,
teaching in the book essentially, right, absolutely, Yeah, it's the same
way that the Royals won the WorldSeries in twenty fifteen. They wanted the
exact same way the White Sox wonit. Yeah, And they talk in
the book, they're like, youknow, like they talk a lot to
(11:11):
Bill James, who they mentioned inthis thing, who's kind of like the
guy who figured this out. Hewas a guy who, as they mentioned,
he was a security guard at afactory and he would he had a
lot of downtimes, so he wouldjust come up with all these you know,
theories and everything in stats and whatever, and then he would publish them
and it caught on, you know, and it really did. It was
(11:33):
sort of like, what you know, started this whole movement. And he
said that. I think in thebook they mentioned at one point they're like,
yeah, you know, we wentto the White Sox and we're like,
I don't know if you guys areaware of this, but like when
Frank Thomas is playing first base,he's batting like fifty points higher than when
(11:54):
he's dhing, but you guys alwayshave him dhing. You should probably just
be aware of that. And theWhite Sox were like, get out of
here, we don't need you,ye, And it's like why would you
not listen to this person who's pointingout something which you're obviously not paying attention
to, you know, And itis like this, you know. And
(12:18):
and like the head scout in themovie, who actually is a scout in
baseball, Like he was given likeinterviews and stuff after the movie and he's
like, yeah, I totally agreewith my character, like Billy Bean and
all this stuff. It's a bunchof nonsense. It's garbage. It's hilarious.
(12:41):
But that really is like the thinkingthat that people had, and yeah,
some people still have that though,like you know, like there are
people who's like man, like youknow, the common criticism aimed at people
who are in supportive analytics. It'slike, oh, these these nerds are
ruined the game. They never play, they're just using math, blah blah
blah blah. I was like,well, like, it's it's it's it's
such a an overstep in such ageneralization, so rude, but um and
(13:07):
it's like it's like they're, asthey say in the movies, like they're
they're afraid that their livelihoods are beingare being uh taken away, right,
it's the whole they took our jobstype of deal. But it's not,
it's not it's it's it's it's helpingyou at your job after like you know,
as Billy says adapter Die and andthat line. I mean when this
(13:28):
movie came out, like I lovedit. I thought it was the best
movie of the year. I thinkit's personally I think it's like the best
baseball movie. Um it was.This was nominated for Best Picture, wasn't
it. It was? Yeah,And you know the year that it came
out like basically right at that time, almost exactly at that time was when
(13:50):
the conversion from film to digital washappening in movie theaters. And I was
a projectionist and have been for youknow, over a decade at that point,
and this reality, which had sortof been peeking out, you know,
ever since I had started the jobtwelve years before, was like digital
is coming, and once it does, you don't really need projectionists anymore,
(14:15):
Like you don't need them to bethere. And this whole idea of like
I mean, like watching this movielooking at it through that lens as I
was kind of like going through itprofessionally, like you know, I am
sort of a dinosaur in this field, right, and they're not going to
need me but do And you wouldlook at like projectionist forums and stuff like
(14:39):
that, and there'd be a bunchof guys who had been doing it for
as long as those scouts had beendoing it, and they're all like this
digital is sorry as you can't saythat whatever, but you know, it's
it's like, you know, like, oh this it's it looks like crap,
it's garbage and everything. And Iwould sit there and look at it
and be like it's under eable thatlike this is a beneficial thing, you
(15:03):
know, not that I want filmto go away, but digital is a
positive and you know, to justsay like, well we shouldn't be doing
it because things are going to change, like that doesn't make any sense,
you know, adapt or die.I mean it totally. I mean that
(15:24):
is that is what it is,right, I mean that's yeah. And
yet now like these teams that youknow, the system that Billy being found
in order to make the as awinning team, like you're saying, it
really is gone because everybody's caught on. And now yes, the Red Sox
(15:45):
with their money, can use analyticsto buy the best players and it's just
no contest still again, so we'reback to where we were before essentially essentially,
Um, but you know they're theyou think about like teams like the
Rays right, who are are essentiallylike the the East Coast version of the
(16:08):
of the A's Um. They theyrun this that system almost to perfection.
Um, the Florida Marlins of thetime right at a very similar type of
strategy, right because they've only youknow, each time they made the postseason,
they've they've won the world series,so because they wanted in too,
because they wanted No. Three.Right, So uh, they were the
(16:32):
winners then. So it's you know, they like and they're the ones who
like blow up their team and thenstart from scratch, kind of like what
Billy was doing. And then theyand then after a couple of years they
got really good. But that systemwhile they still had them under contract and
they won the World Series. Happenedin ninety seven, happened in two thousand
and three, so you know itcan happen. Um. My team was
(16:52):
a you know, is a hugeyou know user and proponent of analytics.
I know, I know among otherthings. I know. Um, but
uh but you know we used ittoo, right, And it's not just
as you said, it's not justthe small market teams that are doing it.
It's the teams now that have money. The Yankees are doing it.
They're not They're just not good atit, which I think is hilarious.
(17:15):
Yeah. Yeah, I mean theother thing that it did is kind of
like change the way that the gameis played, you know, like just
from from watching it and everything.And you know theo Epstein, who's the
guy who essentially he's the guy whotook the job in Boston that that Billy
(17:37):
Bean turned down, and he's theone who's had the most success with it,
even though being may have been thesort of originator of it. You
know, as we see in themovie, Bean's desire to take that system
and prove that you can win ina market like Oakland, you know that
that's not what Epstein did. Epsteinwas like, let me use this to
(18:00):
actually win a World Series with ateam that has the resources. And that's
what he did with Boston, andthen he went to Chicago and did it
with the Cubs, and it's like, okay. And the interesting thing about
that, like, you know,I was watching some old videos of the
(18:21):
two thousand and five White Sox playoffrun and it is fantastic. I highly
recommend watching it, especially the WorldSeries is amazing. Anyway, I do
not recommend watch anyway. Like thefirst round, they played Boston and the
White Sox, who again were notone of those analytical minded things. They
(18:45):
you know, would employ a shifton the infield for players like David Ortiz
in particular, where they would putthree players on the first base side of
the infield instead of having two oneach It is traditional and um, the
announcers would comment on it like lookit what they're doing this. Yeah,
(19:10):
I remember watching that and like peoplelike people were blown away by that.
I was just like, this isnot this is not that big of a
deal. They did shifts in thethirties, right, they did this with
Ted Williams. Right, people don'tbut like people took issue with it.
Then I'm like, I don't,I don't understand. And they couldn't.
It's like and they couldn't run ashift on like Griffy in his heyday because
(19:30):
Griffy was knocking out of the parkso like and he just did everything so
but like for but yeah, likethe shift is not anything new. But
for some reason they were like Ithought it was like the greatest thing ever
they I don't know that they thoughtit was the greatest thing ever there was.
I mean, for one thing,I think the announcers were on ESPN,
and you know they're all about Boston, you know, Chris Berman and
(19:51):
everything. But you would see,you know, or tease hit what would
be like a clear base hit toright field and it would be right to
the second baseman who was there,and it would just turned into a groundout
and you could see the frustration onhis face, like this is not fair,
you know, like he was likereally mad about it. And it's
(20:14):
like, you know, it waslike a weird oddity at the time,
and now it is the thing todo. That's just what you do.
Everybody does it for every player.Every single player has their own like profile
and there's different things and this iswhere you're going to play that. It's
called a scouting report, right exactly. And the thing about it, which
(20:36):
is really kind of interesting now islike the fans have sort of turned on
it because the game's not as excitinganymore. Like they've found ways to get
more outs, right, so fansare like, there's not as much offense,
there's not as much scoring, it'snot as exciting. And you know,
(20:57):
theo Epstein who left the CUB nowhas a new role with Major League
Baseball where it's about reevaluating the rulesin order to essentially adapt the game to
make it more what it was before. And he like when they announced his
role, he's like, I realizethat I am largely responsible for changing the
(21:22):
game into what it is now,and I understand that it's not as exciting
as it was before and sorry aboutthat. Yeah, yeah, I think
the well, first of all,I think I remember that interview. And
then the second is I think youknow what the shift. I think that
when people say that it makes thegame not exciting anymore when you create outs
like that, it's what it takesaway, is like the excitement on what
(21:48):
happens when the ball is put inplay, right, Like you like to
see the amazing plays. You liketo see defenders diving for something or having
to reach you know, far intothe hole to get go get the ball,
those types of things. But ifit's just a routine pickup because like
you have four people over on oneside, that I get that that's not
exciting. But if you're if you'reobjective as a team is to win,
(22:11):
like and that helps you win,that's just what you do. Um.
The other aspect of it is theother flips on offense, Like you're talking
about the shift on defense, buton offense. The new thing in analytics
now is like you know the wholewell, no extra base hits, It's
like it's a home run or that'sit. Right, people are just like
(22:32):
you know, they've discovered the whole, like you know the whole launch angle
thing in baseball now and um andthey're you know, just using math with
you know, the velocity of theball coming in your launch angle when when
the ball is hit out and likethose the factors go into it, into
the geometry of everything. And nowlike if you can clear four hundred,
like you know, with what youdo on your swing, then that is
(22:52):
what we want you to do.Like we don't want you know, putting
the ball in play and moving andmoving the runners over. We don't want
anything that, like you swing forthe fences every single time, and that
is also not as exciting. It'snot and but it's it is also again
something which is not new. Imean the Orioles, you know, their
whole philosophy when they were you know, really good in like the seventies or
(23:15):
whatever was. You know, youwin with three run home runs, right,
you walk or whatever, get peopleon base, and then you hit
a home run and that's it,you know, So it is it is
strange. You know, all ofthis has happened before, and all of
this has happened again. And youknow, I while I love analytics,
(23:37):
and I'm you know, of coursein favor of teams using them and everything
like that. I do also seekind of like a value in doing what
you know, they're trying with Epsteinin order to kind of like course correct
and maybe make the game more likeit was before by implementing new rules,
(23:59):
you know, saying like you gotto keep two players on each side of
second base. You know, you'renot allowed to do that to to you
know, shift like that. Imean, I don't see any problem with
that, you know, changing therules of the game, because then you
know your teams are going to needto find different ways to to win,
you know, yeah, using analytics, And I think that that's cool too.
(24:22):
Yeah that's true. I don't know, but um so, okay,
as far as the movie itself isconcerned, I mean, what are your
what are your thoughts? I thoughtit was a really good movie. Um.
I love I'm a friend fan ofBrad Pitt, and I think it's
hilarious. Like everything that he's inhe's all like, I love his his
little quirk of finding it necessary toeat something. Yes, that is everything.
(24:49):
He loves that. And I alsolove the variety of the things that
he's eating, Like it's always youknow, it's it's sometimes it's a cookie.
Sometimes it's you know in this moviethere was twinkie, there's a cheeseburger,
Like, there's all sorts of thingsthat he's doing. Um, I
just thought that that was funny.Um. The I forgot that Robin Wright
was in this. Um. Iwas like, oh, that's that's interesting.
(25:12):
Um. You know she's had somelike you know what a career for
her. But like I I completelyforgot that she was in this movie.
Spike Jones as her husband. Thischaracter of being John Malkovich hilarious. Yeah,
he's really good in it too.Right. Oh, I love that
whole that that see with that wholedynamic is just very very funny. Um.
(25:34):
It's played up and like like yousee that a lot in other movies.
Um, and it's just as funnywithout it, uh going down the
normal roads that it goes down inother in other places. Um. But
it reminded me of like thank youfor smoking, the way that Aaron Eckhart
is to his his wife's her newhusband. Um, it reminded me of
(25:55):
that, but it was not asnot as crass. Um. So Jonah
Hill his character that it like thatcharacter does not exist because that person in
real life is it's Paul de Podesta, which I which I had completely forgot
about. I was because like Iremember thinking to myself, I was like,
wait, where did Peter Brand goafter this? Like what team did
(26:17):
he go? And then that waslike, oh wait, there is no
Peter Brand because it's Paul de Podesta. Yeah. Yeah, it was some
sort of thing where like Paul dePodesta was like not on board with the
movie or something like that, sothey changed the name of the character and
that's what it was. But Imean, I love it. I think
(26:37):
that it is, you know,like one of the best of the decade
and everything like that. Um,However, there's always always always going to
be this thing which just kind oflike nags at me regarding this movie,
which is what it could have beenbecause it was originally going to be directed
(26:59):
by Steven Soderberg. Oh and whathis plan was for the movie movie where
Brad Pitt is going to going tolike minor league camps and like stealing players
there you go. Yeah, no, it was insane. It was crazier
than that. What he was goingto do was he had Brad Pitt as
as Billy Bean. Everyone else inthe movie was going to be played by
(27:22):
themselves. So he had he hadDavid Justice, he had how he had
everybody on board to play themselves,and he was going and he's experimented with
things like this, like with somesmaller movies like Bubble and stuff, where
it's like, you know, goesto a small town, makes a movie
about a doll factory, has abunch of people you know who live in
(27:45):
the town, essentially play themselves,doesn't give them you know, scripts or
whatever, and just says, youknow, do what you would do,
or in this case, do whatyou did because you're playing yourself, you
know. And it's like this crazyexperimental movie which you know would have cost
like still sixty five million dollars.Right, they were gonna like take old
(28:06):
footage and you know stick people inand I do like all sorts of like
crazy stuff with this, and hisbig thing, because he's Soderberg, he's
like, I want this to beas realistic as possible. Like, you
know, they they had like someline in the movie, which I think
is in this movie where like youknow, just like hit hitting the ball
(28:27):
down to first base or something,and you know, someone saying like,
oh, maybe we should get youknow, fans to do whatever it was,
you know, like things like that, like even like little lines of
dialogue where it's like, oh,that's funny, and he was like,
no, they didn't say that backthen. We are not doing that.
It was going to be super duperrealistic. That was the goal. And
(28:52):
they were supposed to start shooting ona Monday, and the friday before the
studio was like, maybe this isn'ta good idea, and they they they
just stopped it. They fired Soderberg. They hired Aaron Sorkin to come in
and rewrite the script, which wasalready by you know, the Oscar winning
(29:12):
writer of Schindler's List, you know, but they were like, let's bring
in Aaron Sorkin to rewrite it andmake it more like a real movie.
And they did, and this isthe result. And I love the end
result. But when you hear aboutwhat Soderberg was going to do, it's
just like, I would love tosee Art how acting in a movie,
(29:33):
yeah, or David Justice or ScottHaddeberg ding in a movie that's really funny
and that's really interesting, so cool, because I think that's also another part
of the charm of this movie islike you know, for you and I
and other people who are are baseballfans, like some of these names and
stuff that they were talking about inthis, it's like it like it brings
(29:55):
you back right, like the nostalgiakicks in um of it. Like you
know, like the very beginning whenthey showed like the footage of the the
Oh three ds and you're like,oh, that's Johnny Damon and people are
like Johnny Damon. He was onthe A's. Yes, before he went
to Boston. He was on theA's So it was Jason is Isnhausen and
then Jason Giambi before he eventually wanderedup on the Yankees, who was over
(30:18):
there playing for a small market team. Um and uh, like in some
of the other names that you hearthroughout you know the movie, it was
just like oh yeah, that guy. Or when they talk when you're he's
getting the different gms on the phone, it's like, oh neat. So
I think that was that was aninteresting part of this as well. Um
that, plus you know, thethe introspection of Bean having been a player
(30:45):
who was scouted, highly touted andthen it just didn't work out and he
has this chip on his shoulder ofwanting to make something work when he was
not the thing that worked, likewhen he himself was not the thing that
and trying to find a way inin the game past your you know,
you're playing capabilities. I think thatwas that was another interesting recal to it
(31:10):
um, especially to a story thatwas already cinematic as it is. It's
like, if you know, weknew what happened in that O three season,
but they have the streak um theyhad gotten. They lost in heartbreaking
fashion the year before they lost inheartbreaking fashion again even though they had some
success, and then like the yearafter they you know, they have the
arguably the most wait, no,which year was it with the Jeter flip
(31:33):
play when that like that is likeone of the greatest plays in postseason history,
and it's just crushing that that happened, like that had happened to Oakland,
like it's it's it's absolutely crushing.I think it was the year before
because it was, Yeah, itwas. I think it was O two
when they when they lost it waswhatever the series was that they lost in
the Yankees Um, So yeah,it was O two UM because it happened.
(31:55):
It happened in Oakland, Yeah,because they dropped two there. Crazy,
but like it's just everything about wasit was cinematic. You know,
had a bird hitting the goal,the walk off homer for the twentieth game.
It's like you couldn't script that,like, but it's crazy that that
actually happened. And that's one ofthe interesting parts about this movie because it
really is like the drama of likewinning. It's not like your typical sports
(32:19):
movie where it's like, oh,Rocky, he's the underdog and oh he
turns the tables and went, youknow whatever it is. It's like it's
that story, but it's doing thatlike in like an office setting, right
yes. So like they'll have likebig dramatic music which leads up to like
paper coming out of a printer,you know, and it's like, oh,
(32:44):
look at that, right yeah.And yet like within this story where
you know, all of the theaction takes place like behind the scenes,
they do have that very sort oflike movie storyline, you know, like
sports movie storyline of the streak,you know, and and you they play
(33:07):
it up, you know, theway you would see it in any other
sports movie like Rocky or Miracle oranything like that. And then immediately followed
by you know, the main characteris saying like it doesn't mean anything,
you know, which is you know, that's and that's what he said in
real life too, right, It'slike it's it's fine, it doesn't mean
(33:27):
anything, which is really interesting becauseit's like that is what you know,
as they keep on saying, like, how can you not be romantic about
baseball? Like that is what peoplelove about the game, and yet they're
objective. It doesn't it's not ameasure of their success, right, because
they're not basing it on individual achievements. It's the overall the mathematical achievement,
(33:54):
which is really cool and interesting itis, and it also it also goes
to show you, like how muchdifficult it is for certain teams. Well,
first of all, how it isto like how difficult it is to
win like at the highest level,but also how much more difficult it is
when you do not have the resources. You know, it's stacked in your
(34:15):
favor, um, you know,in baseball, it's a huge it's not
necessarily a huge problem now because likeit's like because it's been proven that like
you can, you can you canmake it work with whatever your situation.
Is um, and this movie provesthat you can make it work with whatever
your situation is. Um. Imean, the race went to the World
Series a couple of years ago,for God's sakes, So um, you
(34:37):
know that's you know, that's that'sone example of it. But like you
think of like like college football,for example, with this past year,
Cincinnati makes it to the College FootballPlayoff and they didn't they and their their
prize for making it to the CollegeFootball Playoff was you get to play Alabama
and then they lost, and thenof course you know this soon that they
(34:58):
lost, the discourse immediately becomes wellthey didn't belong anyways. It's like no,
like, you know, they hadto go undefeated for two years in
a row to be able to havea shot at being getting a title.
But yeah, Alabama can lose agame or two and still peoples like,
well, they're the best team inthe country. Like, how is it
that it's okay for them to loseand this other team isn't. Like after
being undefeated for for whatever long reason, it's like like the roads are not
(35:21):
equal, um, And you knowit's it's it's hard to win, you
know. And I think this moviedefinitely highlights that that fact. Yeah,
yeah, no, that's definitely true. So I mean, going back to
to your point about the nostalgia forfor a minute. Have you have you
read the book or not? Uh? Not this one though. Yeah.
(35:42):
It is really interesting. I meanit's a really really really good book.
Um, but it's really interesting toum reading it now with the knowledge of
like what has happened, because likeone of the sort of like centerpiece things
in the book, which they kindof adapt into the Seen with the Scouts,
where they're like, you know,who are we going to get?
(36:04):
Oh, Giambi and Giambi you know, like like that like that like kind
of the way that they kick offthe book is with the amateur draft of
two thousand and three or whatever itwas, and you know, like they
and they go through the whole thinglike who are they going to get?
Whatever? And and and it reallyis this sort of thing where it's like,
(36:24):
Okay, we've got these draft picks. These are the people who everyone's
going to go after, but wewant this guy, this guy and this
guy, and everyone's like who Yeah, it's like it's perfect, yeah,
exactly exactly, And and and that'slike how this this um, this draft
(36:45):
plays out right, and it's reallyinteresting now that we've seen all these people's
careers, like you know, playout, and it's like how right were
they? You know? Yeah,And like the one guy who they were
like really really really going after whereit was like this is the dream.
This is Billy Bean's favorite player ofall time, you know, before he's
(37:07):
even a player, was Nick Swisher. They're like Swisher. Yeah, They're
like, we gotta get him number, like he's he's you know, and
like Billy Bean was just like inlove with Nick Swisher and they and they
got him, you know. Butthen you look at some of these other
players and some of them are like, oh yeah, well that guy actually
turned out to be like a reallygood player. And then other guys was
(37:29):
like, okay, yeah he nevermade it to the majors, you know,
and they're like we got such agreat deal on this guy, and
and and but it just goes toshow that it is all about like statistics
and stuff right where it's like improbabilityand it's like we're going to draft all
these people and they have a certainlevel of you know success that they could
(37:52):
you know, it could be orcould not be but this is why we're
going to draft them, like youdon't draft high school pitch or it doesn't
make any sense, you know,like things like that, and trying to
maximize the potential, you know,and it doesn't always work out. It's
really interesting, but I definitely wouldrecommend the book. I think that you
(38:13):
take it a lot. So.Yeah, champion, Yeah, and took
the or help to take the WhiteSox to the to the playoffs in two
thousand and eight. Yeah, althoughapparently everybody hated him, but you know
whatever, you seemed like a funguy to me. Whatever, you know.
(38:34):
Um, so, yes, Moneyballrecommended, I think yeah. All
right, So next time we're goingto be coming up on the Super Bowl.
Unfortunately, neither of our teams willbe in it, but it's correct,
you know, we'll see who endsup in there. Uh so we're
gonna watch off. I don't knowif it's a football movie, but it's
(38:59):
a super Bowl movie. Yeah,well, the super Bowl is football,
so it is it is. Youcan tell how excited Mike is about this.
I've stoked. All right, youwant to tell people what it is.
Absolutely we are in our next episodegonna be talking about the Cinema Classic
(39:20):
ace Ventura Pet Detective. There yougo. I'm excited, there you go.
You know it'll be it'll be goodto watch yet again. Yeah yeah,
oh yeah, we'll see. Ican't wait. Yeah, all right,
(39:45):
Well until then, a Lance,Where can people find you on the
internet. They can find me atSir Lance Laster on all of my social
media's, and you can find meover on the United Federation of Podcasts talking
about all the things that make ArrowArrow on Always Hold on the Arrow.
And you can find us on Twitterat Do Not Fail Our Pod. You
can find me on Twitter and letterboxat Mumbles three K, and you can
(40:07):
also find me on my website,film damagepod dot com doing a show called
film Damage, which we haven't donefor a really long time, but we
will sooner or later depending on howthings go. All right, So I
guess that's pretty much it. Yeah, thanks for listening, until next time
(40:27):
when the last game of the season. Join the Revolution, Join the Nerd Party.
Welcome to the Nerd Polite. Hello, and welcome to Training Montage, the
show on the Nerd Party where wetalk about sports movies. I'm Mike and
(00:29):
it's been a while since we've recorded. Sorry for the delay. You know,
we took the way you know,you know the holidays you know,
as I'm sure they were for youtoo. It's like holidays are rough,
but holidays during COVID are just it'sit's just a huge mess, right,
(00:52):
Yeah, I mean I feel likethis year was worse than last year because
last year it was like, well, we know what's going on on?
Do we know that? You know, basically nothing is going to happen.
But this year it's like everything's goingto happen or not, you know,
and it's just like this kind oflike middle ground of like what do we
do? And yeah, it's justa big mess. Yeah, it was
(01:18):
a lot um And for me,like I you know, I started like
a like a head Christmas gigs againfor the first time in like a long
time. Yea, So that wasthat kept me even more busy than I
normally am. So yeah, becauseI mean, you're you're you're on your
winter break, but you're not reallyon your winter break when and stuff like
that, right, Yeah, yeah, well that's cool though. Yeah,
(01:42):
And a lot of has happened inthe world of sports since last we spoke.
That is true. Football season isis wrapping up. We're into the
playoffs right now. Your Raiders havebeen on sort of a roller coaster over
the past few weeks. So thispast season, yeah, my goodness.
(02:05):
But yeah, I mean certainly,I mean what some people are considering like
the greatest game of all time lastweek. Yeah, and then yesterday,
as of this recording, they wereeliminated in the first round. Yeah.
Sorry, it happens. It's allgood. Yeah, it's all good.
You know, baseball doesn't exist,and no probably won't anytime soon. No,
(02:30):
there's been zero progress made in anyof the meetings or winter talks.
Yeah, it's it's ridiculous. Howlike they're like, oh, you know,
after after like four weeks, they'relike, or more than four weeks,
like six weeks, they're like,there's progress being made. We're getting
word that the owners have a proposalwhich they're going to pitch to the players
(02:54):
in a couple of weeks. It'slike, wow, that's the progress which
is being made. There is noway this season that's happening. That is
correct. But at least we havebasketball, right, that's well. I
mean you have basketball. Oh,I have college basketball. Basketball. Yeah,
(03:15):
college basketball is good. Right.You have the Bulls who are a
good team. They are. Yeah, I was, you know, I've
been you know, I don't knowmuch about basketball, but I'm starting to
learn. I followed them pretty closelylast year when they weren't good, and
now this year they are good.And you know, I see there at
the top of the conference and everythinglike that. And then you know,
(03:36):
they played the Nets, who arelike the number two team, and I'm
like, this is going to beamazing, and then you know they just
got crushed. Yeah, they gotblasted. And then the next day they
played Golden State, you know,also got So you know, that's what
it's like watching the Rockets because likewhen we lose, we lose. Um,
(03:57):
you know, I know it's Iget that it's a young team.
We have four kids on the teamwho are who are literally kids, they're
still teenagers. But like we can'taverage getting lot, you know, getting
beat by twenty Like it's annoying.Yeah. Yeah, I've been there for
sure, But I'm super excited aboutthis Bulls team, though I have to
(04:18):
say it's a it's it's very theylook good encouraging. Yeah. Yeah.
So you know, while we maynot have baseball to watch, we can
at least watch baseball movies for sure. And one of the very best,
in my opinion, is Bennett Miller'sMoneyball starring Brad Pitt from twenty eleven.
(04:44):
And yeah, this is a moviewhich is based on a non fiction book
written by Michael Lewis about the OaklandA's in two thousand and two, two
thousand and three, that area,yeah, the two thousand three season,
and you know, they take someliberties with it and everything, but essentially
it's about a team which had nomoney and needed to try to find a
(05:10):
way to compete with teams like theYankees, which have lots and lots of
money, like three times as muchmoney. And how do you do that,
Well, you use math to findplayers which are not properly valued in
order to you know, put togethera team of of misfit toys or whatever
(05:33):
and still have some success on thefield. So, Lance, I guess
my first question is what do youthink about the concept of moneyball and statistics,
which have sort of, you know, really now since this movie taken
(05:57):
a pretty big part in Yeah,well, I think like the use of
of this right, like the youknow analytics, you know, this is
kind of the catch all term forall of this now. Um, it
has definitely really taken off since themovie came out. But teams were some
teams were using it because sometimes that'sall they could do, right, But
(06:21):
now the good teams are using it. UM. At the end of the
movie, they you know, theyhave that little blurb about like how Billy
turned down the Red Sox offered tobecome GM and uh, the Red Sox
in OH four went ahead and weren'twon the World Series and they're like in
part using you know, the thesystem that he invented or that he that
he implemented. And I'm like whenI read that, I was like,
(06:43):
well, not really. I mean, the Red Sox were stacked. Let's
also not forget about that, Likeso uh they like David Ortiz is still
on that team, so as MannyRamirez, Pedro, uh, Keith Folk.
Uh, you know, they hadthey had players, So that was
that's the reason why they won.UM. But the use of analytics though
as as far as how a teamoperates, what they do and how they
(07:08):
perform and how like the system ofhow they they play the game, uh
is completely different now than it wasin twenty eleven because now teams, their
entire identity and how they perform intheir sport is based off of the math
and the science that gonna go intoit. UM. You hear all the
time on like you know, likein basketball for example, UH, you
(07:30):
know, on T and T theythey hate the use of analytics. But
there are certain teams in basketball,um they're all about using it. The
rockets up until a few years agowhen we had James Harden UH and Mike
DAYTONI, we're all about the analyticalaspect of everything. And there's like,
look, a three pointer is morethan two. So we're going to shoot
tons of threes, and we're andif we shoot a two, we're it's
(07:50):
only going to be the highest percentageones, which are layups. And then
and then if we you know,don't shoot those, we're just going to
get you know, we're just gonnago to the free throw line, like
you know, where you're unpat itin your progress to to make it make
a shot. So they're playing thepercentages to you know, gain points rather
than in like which is what theywere doing in this movie, like we're
trying to manufacture runs. And it'sin a lot of ways, it's the
(08:13):
same you know. Uh, it'sthe same strategy that you should have when
making your fantasy fantasy team, right, You're trying to you're trying to get
the most points that you possibly can, and so you're not always going to
be able to get the you know, the best player, but if you
can, if you can get whatyou would think would be the amount of
points that would get you a wineach week, then that is what matters.
(08:35):
Um. So it's just it's justit's crazy to think about how back
then this was a foreign concept butnow it's everywhere. Yeah, and that
was one of the things which youknow what when the book came out,
you know, which was I don'tknow, I'm guessing like two thousand and
five something like that, you know, because they had to be a couple
of years after the season. Umthere, it's not like the reality was
(09:01):
that you know, they had agreat team and then you know, they
got torn apart and they needed tofind a way to rebuild it and that's
when they adopted this strategy, likethey had been using it for years at
that point. And you know,but obviously this makes the for good drama,
you know, telling it in thisparticular way. I mean. The
(09:22):
other aspect which people always bring upis like nobody ever talks about their pitching.
I was, oh, man,I was just about to say that
because like because I had to,I had been when I was watching the
movie, I had to double checkthe rods because they're only talking about like,
they spent a lot of time talkingabout Scott Hadeberg, and they spent
a lot of time talking about DavidJustice, who wasn't in the end up
on the team at the end ofthe season. Um. But I was
(09:43):
like, wait a second. Theyhad mcguel Tahda on that team and their
pitching was stacked. They had zeroMark Muller and Tim Hudson, Like come
on, yeah, their pitching staffwas amazing. But you know, and
the book is way way, waymore like analytic, almost like a textbook.
You know, there's not any realdrama in there. It's you know,
(10:05):
all about this process, you know, and it's like, okay,
you're doing that, Yeah, yougot to figure out, you know,
and there was much more of afocus on offense and everything. And you
know, while all that's true,you know, there was like this reaction
like after the book came out fromthese smaller teams that were using this philosophy
(10:26):
where they were like you literally youlet someone follow you around and you told
them all of our secrets, likewhat's wrong with you? You know,
because then it did catch on,you know, and everybody started using it.
I mean the White Sox you know, obviously my favorite team even in
(10:48):
two thousand and five when they wonthe World Series with you know, small
ball, like that goes way againstlike everything that they were you know,
teaching in the book essentially, right, absolutely, Yeah, it's the same
way that the Royals won the WorldSeries in twenty fifteen. They wanted the
exact same way the White Sox wonit. Yeah, And they talk in
the book, they're like, youknow, like they talk a lot to
(11:11):
Bill James, who they mentioned inthis thing, who's kind of like the
guy who figured this out. Hewas a guy who, as they mentioned,
he was a security guard at afactory and he would he had a
lot of downtimes, so he wouldjust come up with all these you know,
theories and everything in stats and whatever, and then he would publish them
and it caught on, you know, and it really did. It was
(11:33):
sort of like, what you know, started this whole movement. And he
said that. I think in thebook they mentioned at one point they're like,
yeah, you know, we wentto the White Sox and we're like,
I don't know if you guys areaware of this, but like when
Frank Thomas is playing first base,he's batting like fifty points higher than when
(11:54):
he's dhing, but you guys alwayshave him dhing. You should probably just
be aware of that. And theWhite Sox were like, get out of
here, we don't need you,ye, And it's like why would you
not listen to this person who's pointingout something which you're obviously not paying attention
to, you know, And itis like this, you know. And
(12:18):
and like the head scout in themovie, who actually is a scout in
baseball, Like he was given likeinterviews and stuff after the movie and he's
like, yeah, I totally agreewith my character, like Billy Bean and
all this stuff. It's a bunchof nonsense. It's garbage. It's hilarious.
(12:41):
But that really is like the thinkingthat that people had, and yeah,
some people still have that though,like you know, like there are
people who's like man, like youknow, the common criticism aimed at people
who are in supportive analytics. It'slike, oh, these these nerds are
ruined the game. They never play, they're just using math, blah blah
blah blah. I was like,well, like, it's it's it's it's
such a an overstep in such ageneralization, so rude, but um and
(13:07):
it's like it's like they're, asthey say in the movies, like they're
they're afraid that their livelihoods are beingare being uh taken away, right,
it's the whole they took our jobstype of deal. But it's not,
it's not it's it's it's it's helpingyou at your job after like you know,
as Billy says adapter Die and andthat line. I mean when this
(13:28):
movie came out, like I lovedit. I thought it was the best
movie of the year. I thinkit's personally I think it's like the best
baseball movie. Um it was.This was nominated for Best Picture, wasn't
it. It was? Yeah,And you know the year that it came
out like basically right at that time, almost exactly at that time was when
(13:50):
the conversion from film to digital washappening in movie theaters. And I was
a projectionist and have been for youknow, over a decade at that point,
and this reality, which had sortof been peeking out, you know,
ever since I had started the jobtwelve years before, was like digital
is coming, and once it does, you don't really need projectionists anymore,
(14:15):
Like you don't need them to bethere. And this whole idea of like
I mean, like watching this movielooking at it through that lens as I
was kind of like going through itprofessionally, like you know, I am
sort of a dinosaur in this field, right, and they're not going to
need me but do And you wouldlook at like projectionist forums and stuff like
(14:39):
that, and there'd be a bunchof guys who had been doing it for
as long as those scouts had beendoing it, and they're all like this
digital is sorry as you can't saythat whatever, but you know, it's
it's like, you know, like, oh this it's it looks like crap,
it's garbage and everything. And Iwould sit there and look at it
and be like it's under eable thatlike this is a beneficial thing, you
(15:03):
know, not that I want filmto go away, but digital is a
positive and you know, to justsay like, well we shouldn't be doing
it because things are going to change, like that doesn't make any sense,
you know, adapt or die.I mean it totally. I mean that
(15:24):
is that is what it is,right, I mean that's yeah. And
yet now like these teams that youknow, the system that Billy being found
in order to make the as awinning team, like you're saying, it
really is gone because everybody's caught on. And now yes, the Red Sox
(15:45):
with their money, can use analyticsto buy the best players and it's just
no contest still again, so we'reback to where we were before essentially essentially,
Um, but you know they're theyou think about like teams like the
Rays right, who are are essentiallylike the the East Coast version of the
(16:08):
of the A's Um. They theyrun this that system almost to perfection.
Um, the Florida Marlins of thetime right at a very similar type of
strategy, right because they've only youknow, each time they made the postseason,
they've they've won the world series,so because they wanted in too,
because they wanted No. Three.Right, So uh, they were the
(16:32):
winners then. So it's you know, they like and they're the ones who
like blow up their team and thenstart from scratch, kind of like what
Billy was doing. And then theyand then after a couple of years they
got really good. But that systemwhile they still had them under contract and
they won the World Series. Happenedin ninety seven, happened in two thousand
and three, so you know itcan happen. Um. My team was
(16:52):
a you know, is a hugeyou know user and proponent of analytics.
I know, I know among otherthings. I know. Um, but
uh but you know we used ittoo, right, And it's not just
as you said, it's not justthe small market teams that are doing it.
It's the teams now that have money. The Yankees are doing it.
They're not They're just not good atit, which I think is hilarious.
(17:15):
Yeah. Yeah, I mean theother thing that it did is kind of
like change the way that the gameis played, you know, like just
from from watching it and everything.And you know theo Epstein, who's the
guy who essentially he's the guy whotook the job in Boston that that Billy
(17:37):
Bean turned down, and he's theone who's had the most success with it,
even though being may have been thesort of originator of it. You
know, as we see in themovie, Bean's desire to take that system
and prove that you can win ina market like Oakland, you know that
that's not what Epstein did. Epsteinwas like, let me use this to
(18:00):
actually win a World Series with ateam that has the resources. And that's
what he did with Boston, andthen he went to Chicago and did it
with the Cubs, and it's like, okay. And the interesting thing about
that, like, you know,I was watching some old videos of the
(18:21):
two thousand and five White Sox playoffrun and it is fantastic. I highly
recommend watching it, especially the WorldSeries is amazing. Anyway, I do
not recommend watch anyway. Like thefirst round, they played Boston and the
White Sox, who again were notone of those analytical minded things. They
(18:45):
you know, would employ a shifton the infield for players like David Ortiz
in particular, where they would putthree players on the first base side of
the infield instead of having two oneach It is traditional and um, the
announcers would comment on it like lookit what they're doing this. Yeah,
(19:10):
I remember watching that and like peoplelike people were blown away by that.
I was just like, this isnot this is not that big of a
deal. They did shifts in thethirties, right, they did this with
Ted Williams. Right, people don'tbut like people took issue with it.
Then I'm like, I don't,I don't understand. And they couldn't.
It's like and they couldn't run ashift on like Griffy in his heyday because
(19:30):
Griffy was knocking out of the parkso like and he just did everything so
but like for but yeah, likethe shift is not anything new. But
for some reason they were like Ithought it was like the greatest thing ever
they I don't know that they thoughtit was the greatest thing ever there was.
I mean, for one thing,I think the announcers were on ESPN,
and you know they're all about Boston, you know, Chris Berman and
(19:51):
everything. But you would see,you know, or tease hit what would
be like a clear base hit toright field and it would be right to
the second baseman who was there,and it would just turned into a groundout
and you could see the frustration onhis face, like this is not fair,
you know, like he was likereally mad about it. And it's
(20:14):
like, you know, it waslike a weird oddity at the time,
and now it is the thing todo. That's just what you do.
Everybody does it for every player.Every single player has their own like profile
and there's different things and this iswhere you're going to play that. It's
called a scouting report, right exactly. And the thing about it, which
(20:36):
is really kind of interesting now islike the fans have sort of turned on
it because the game's not as excitinganymore. Like they've found ways to get
more outs, right, so fansare like, there's not as much offense,
there's not as much scoring, it'snot as exciting. And you know,
(20:57):
theo Epstein who left the CUB nowhas a new role with Major League
Baseball where it's about reevaluating the rulesin order to essentially adapt the game to
make it more what it was before. And he like when they announced his
role, he's like, I realizethat I am largely responsible for changing the
(21:22):
game into what it is now,and I understand that it's not as exciting
as it was before and sorry aboutthat. Yeah, yeah, I think
the well, first of all,I think I remember that interview. And
then the second is I think youknow what the shift. I think that
when people say that it makes thegame not exciting anymore when you create outs
like that, it's what it takesaway, is like the excitement on what
(21:48):
happens when the ball is put inplay, right, Like you like to
see the amazing plays. You liketo see defenders diving for something or having
to reach you know, far intothe hole to get go get the ball,
those types of things. But ifit's just a routine pickup because like
you have four people over on oneside, that I get that that's not
exciting. But if you're if you'reobjective as a team is to win,
(22:11):
like and that helps you win,that's just what you do. Um.
The other aspect of it is theother flips on offense, Like you're talking
about the shift on defense, buton offense. The new thing in analytics
now is like you know the wholewell, no extra base hits, It's
like it's a home run or that'sit. Right, people are just like
(22:32):
you know, they've discovered the whole, like you know the whole launch angle
thing in baseball now and um andthey're you know, just using math with
you know, the velocity of theball coming in your launch angle when when
the ball is hit out and likethose the factors go into it, into
the geometry of everything. And nowlike if you can clear four hundred,
like you know, with what youdo on your swing, then that is
(22:52):
what we want you to do.Like we don't want you know, putting
the ball in play and moving andmoving the runners over. We don't want
anything that, like you swing forthe fences every single time, and that
is also not as exciting. It'snot and but it's it is also again
something which is not new. Imean the Orioles, you know, their
whole philosophy when they were you know, really good in like the seventies or
(23:15):
whatever was. You know, youwin with three run home runs, right,
you walk or whatever, get peopleon base, and then you hit
a home run and that's it,you know, So it is it is
strange. You know, all ofthis has happened before, and all of
this has happened again. And youknow, I while I love analytics,
(23:37):
and I'm you know, of coursein favor of teams using them and everything
like that. I do also seekind of like a value in doing what
you know, they're trying with Epsteinin order to kind of like course correct
and maybe make the game more likeit was before by implementing new rules,
(23:59):
you know, saying like you gotto keep two players on each side of
second base. You know, you'renot allowed to do that to to you
know, shift like that. Imean, I don't see any problem with
that, you know, changing therules of the game, because then you
know your teams are going to needto find different ways to to win,
you know, yeah, using analytics, And I think that that's cool too.
(24:22):
Yeah that's true. I don't know, but um so, okay,
as far as the movie itself isconcerned, I mean, what are your
what are your thoughts? I thoughtit was a really good movie. Um.
I love I'm a friend fan ofBrad Pitt, and I think it's
hilarious. Like everything that he's inhe's all like, I love his his
little quirk of finding it necessary toeat something. Yes, that is everything.
(24:49):
He loves that. And I alsolove the variety of the things that
he's eating, Like it's always youknow, it's it's sometimes it's a cookie.
Sometimes it's you know in this moviethere was twinkie, there's a cheeseburger,
Like, there's all sorts of thingsthat he's doing. Um, I
just thought that that was funny.Um. The I forgot that Robin Wright
was in this. Um. Iwas like, oh, that's that's interesting.
(25:12):
Um. You know she's had somelike you know what a career for
her. But like I I completelyforgot that she was in this movie.
Spike Jones as her husband. Thischaracter of being John Malkovich hilarious. Yeah,
he's really good in it too.Right. Oh, I love that
whole that that see with that wholedynamic is just very very funny. Um.
(25:34):
It's played up and like like yousee that a lot in other movies.
Um, and it's just as funnywithout it, uh going down the
normal roads that it goes down inother in other places. Um. But
it reminded me of like thank youfor smoking, the way that Aaron Eckhart
is to his his wife's her newhusband. Um, it reminded me of
(25:55):
that, but it was not asnot as crass. Um. So Jonah
Hill his character that it like thatcharacter does not exist because that person in
real life is it's Paul de Podesta, which I which I had completely forgot
about. I was because like Iremember thinking to myself, I was like,
wait, where did Peter Brand goafter this? Like what team did
(26:17):
he go? And then that waslike, oh wait, there is no
Peter Brand because it's Paul de Podesta. Yeah. Yeah, it was some
sort of thing where like Paul dePodesta was like not on board with the
movie or something like that, sothey changed the name of the character and
that's what it was. But Imean, I love it. I think
(26:37):
that it is, you know,like one of the best of the decade
and everything like that. Um,However, there's always always always going to
be this thing which just kind oflike nags at me regarding this movie,
which is what it could have beenbecause it was originally going to be directed
(26:59):
by Steven Soderberg. Oh and whathis plan was for the movie movie where
Brad Pitt is going to going tolike minor league camps and like stealing players
there you go. Yeah, no, it was insane. It was crazier
than that. What he was goingto do was he had Brad Pitt as
as Billy Bean. Everyone else inthe movie was going to be played by
(27:22):
themselves. So he had he hadDavid Justice, he had how he had
everybody on board to play themselves,and he was going and he's experimented with
things like this, like with somesmaller movies like Bubble and stuff, where
it's like, you know, goesto a small town, makes a movie
about a doll factory, has abunch of people you know who live in
(27:45):
the town, essentially play themselves,doesn't give them you know, scripts or
whatever, and just says, youknow, do what you would do,
or in this case, do whatyou did because you're playing yourself, you
know. And it's like this crazyexperimental movie which you know would have cost
like still sixty five million dollars.Right, they were gonna like take old
(28:06):
footage and you know stick people inand I do like all sorts of like
crazy stuff with this, and hisbig thing, because he's Soderberg, he's
like, I want this to beas realistic as possible. Like, you
know, they they had like someline in the movie, which I think
is in this movie where like youknow, just like hit hitting the ball
(28:27):
down to first base or something,and you know, someone saying like,
oh, maybe we should get youknow, fans to do whatever it was,
you know, like things like that, like even like little lines of
dialogue where it's like, oh,that's funny, and he was like,
no, they didn't say that backthen. We are not doing that.
It was going to be super duperrealistic. That was the goal. And
(28:52):
they were supposed to start shooting ona Monday, and the friday before the
studio was like, maybe this isn'ta good idea, and they they they
just stopped it. They fired Soderberg. They hired Aaron Sorkin to come in
and rewrite the script, which wasalready by you know, the Oscar winning
(29:12):
writer of Schindler's List, you know, but they were like, let's bring
in Aaron Sorkin to rewrite it andmake it more like a real movie.
And they did, and this isthe result. And I love the end
result. But when you hear aboutwhat Soderberg was going to do, it's
just like, I would love tosee Art how acting in a movie,
(29:33):
yeah, or David Justice or ScottHaddeberg ding in a movie that's really funny
and that's really interesting, so cool, because I think that's also another part
of the charm of this movie islike you know, for you and I
and other people who are are baseballfans, like some of these names and
stuff that they were talking about inthis, it's like it like it brings
(29:55):
you back right, like the nostalgiakicks in um of it. Like you
know, like the very beginning whenthey showed like the footage of the the
Oh three ds and you're like,oh, that's Johnny Damon and people are
like Johnny Damon. He was onthe A's. Yes, before he went
to Boston. He was on theA's So it was Jason is Isnhausen and
then Jason Giambi before he eventually wanderedup on the Yankees, who was over
(30:18):
there playing for a small market team. Um and uh, like in some
of the other names that you hearthroughout you know the movie, it was
just like oh yeah, that guy. Or when they talk when you're he's
getting the different gms on the phone, it's like, oh neat. So
I think that was that was aninteresting part of this as well. Um
that, plus you know, thethe introspection of Bean having been a player
(30:45):
who was scouted, highly touted andthen it just didn't work out and he
has this chip on his shoulder ofwanting to make something work when he was
not the thing that worked, likewhen he himself was not the thing that
and trying to find a way inin the game past your you know,
you're playing capabilities. I think thatwas that was another interesting recal to it
(31:10):
um, especially to a story thatwas already cinematic as it is. It's
like, if you know, weknew what happened in that O three season,
but they have the streak um theyhad gotten. They lost in heartbreaking
fashion the year before they lost inheartbreaking fashion again even though they had some
success, and then like the yearafter they you know, they have the
arguably the most wait, no,which year was it with the Jeter flip
(31:33):
play when that like that is likeone of the greatest plays in postseason history,
and it's just crushing that that happened, like that had happened to Oakland,
like it's it's it's absolutely crushing.I think it was the year before
because it was, Yeah, itwas. I think it was O two
when they when they lost it waswhatever the series was that they lost in
the Yankees Um, So yeah,it was O two UM because it happened.
(31:55):
It happened in Oakland, Yeah,because they dropped two there. Crazy,
but like it's just everything about wasit was cinematic. You know,
had a bird hitting the goal,the walk off homer for the twentieth game.
It's like you couldn't script that,like, but it's crazy that that
actually happened. And that's one ofthe interesting parts about this movie because it
really is like the drama of likewinning. It's not like your typical sports
(32:19):
movie where it's like, oh,Rocky, he's the underdog and oh he
turns the tables and went, youknow whatever it is. It's like it's
that story, but it's doing thatlike in like an office setting, right
yes. So like they'll have likebig dramatic music which leads up to like
paper coming out of a printer,you know, and it's like, oh,
(32:44):
look at that, right yeah.And yet like within this story where
you know, all of the theaction takes place like behind the scenes,
they do have that very sort oflike movie storyline, you know, like
sports movie storyline of the streak,you know, and and you they play
(33:07):
it up, you know, theway you would see it in any other
sports movie like Rocky or Miracle oranything like that. And then immediately followed
by you know, the main characteris saying like it doesn't mean anything,
you know, which is you know, that's and that's what he said in
real life too, right, It'slike it's it's fine, it doesn't mean
(33:27):
anything, which is really interesting becauseit's like that is what you know,
as they keep on saying, like, how can you not be romantic about
baseball? Like that is what peoplelove about the game, and yet they're
objective. It doesn't it's not ameasure of their success, right, because
they're not basing it on individual achievements. It's the overall the mathematical achievement,
(33:54):
which is really cool and interesting itis, and it also it also goes
to show you, like how muchdifficult it is for certain teams. Well,
first of all, how it isto like how difficult it is to
win like at the highest level,but also how much more difficult it is
when you do not have the resources. You know, it's stacked in your
(34:15):
favor, um, you know,in baseball, it's a huge it's not
necessarily a huge problem now because likeit's like because it's been proven that like
you can, you can you canmake it work with whatever your situation.
Is um, and this movie provesthat you can make it work with whatever
your situation is. Um. Imean, the race went to the World
Series a couple of years ago,for God's sakes, So um, you
(34:37):
know that's you know, that's that'sone example of it. But like you
think of like like college football,for example, with this past year,
Cincinnati makes it to the College FootballPlayoff and they didn't they and their their
prize for making it to the CollegeFootball Playoff was you get to play Alabama
and then they lost, and thenof course you know this soon that they
(34:58):
lost, the discourse immediately becomes wellthey didn't belong anyways. It's like no,
like, you know, they hadto go undefeated for two years in
a row to be able to havea shot at being getting a title.
But yeah, Alabama can lose agame or two and still peoples like,
well, they're the best team inthe country. Like, how is it
that it's okay for them to loseand this other team isn't. Like after
being undefeated for for whatever long reason, it's like like the roads are not
(35:21):
equal, um, And you knowit's it's it's hard to win, you
know. And I think this moviedefinitely highlights that that fact. Yeah,
yeah, no, that's definitely true. So I mean, going back to
to your point about the nostalgia forfor a minute. Have you have you
read the book or not? Uh? Not this one though. Yeah.
(35:42):
It is really interesting. I meanit's a really really really good book.
Um, but it's really interesting toum reading it now with the knowledge of
like what has happened, because likeone of the sort of like centerpiece things
in the book, which they kindof adapt into the Seen with the Scouts,
where they're like, you know,who are we going to get?
(36:04):
Oh, Giambi and Giambi you know, like like that like that like kind
of the way that they kick offthe book is with the amateur draft of
two thousand and three or whatever itwas, and you know, like they
and they go through the whole thinglike who are they going to get?
Whatever? And and and it reallyis this sort of thing where it's like,
(36:24):
Okay, we've got these draft picks. These are the people who everyone's
going to go after, but wewant this guy, this guy and this
guy, and everyone's like who Yeah, it's like it's perfect, yeah,
exactly exactly, And and and that'slike how this this um, this draft
(36:45):
plays out right, and it's reallyinteresting now that we've seen all these people's
careers, like you know, playout, and it's like how right were
they? You know? Yeah,And like the one guy who they were
like really really really going after whereit was like this is the dream.
This is Billy Bean's favorite player ofall time, you know, before he's
(37:07):
even a player, was Nick Swisher. They're like Swisher. Yeah, They're
like, we gotta get him number, like he's he's you know, and
like Billy Bean was just like inlove with Nick Swisher and they and they
got him, you know. Butthen you look at some of these other
players and some of them are like, oh yeah, well that guy actually
turned out to be like a reallygood player. And then other guys was
(37:29):
like, okay, yeah he nevermade it to the majors, you know,
and they're like we got such agreat deal on this guy, and
and and but it just goes toshow that it is all about like statistics
and stuff right where it's like improbabilityand it's like we're going to draft all
these people and they have a certainlevel of you know success that they could
(37:52):
you know, it could be orcould not be but this is why we're
going to draft them, like youdon't draft high school pitch or it doesn't
make any sense, you know,like things like that, and trying to
maximize the potential, you know,and it doesn't always work out. It's
really interesting, but I definitely wouldrecommend the book. I think that you
(38:13):
take it a lot. So.Yeah, champion, Yeah, and took
the or help to take the WhiteSox to the to the playoffs in two
thousand and eight. Yeah, althoughapparently everybody hated him, but you know
whatever, you seemed like a funguy to me. Whatever, you know.
(38:34):
Um, so, yes, Moneyballrecommended, I think yeah. All
right, So next time we're goingto be coming up on the Super Bowl.
Unfortunately, neither of our teams willbe in it, but it's correct,
you know, we'll see who endsup in there. Uh so we're
gonna watch off. I don't knowif it's a football movie, but it's
(38:59):
a super Bowl movie. Yeah,well, the super Bowl is football,
so it is it is. Youcan tell how excited Mike is about this.
I've stoked. All right, youwant to tell people what it is.
Absolutely we are in our next episodegonna be talking about the Cinema Classic
(39:20):
ace Ventura Pet Detective. There yougo. I'm excited, there you go.
You know it'll be it'll be goodto watch yet again. Yeah yeah,
oh yeah, we'll see. Ican't wait. Yeah, all right,
(39:45):
Well until then, a Lance,Where can people find you on the
internet. They can find me atSir Lance Laster on all of my social
media's, and you can find meover on the United Federation of Podcasts talking
about all the things that make ArrowArrow on Always Hold on the Arrow.
And you can find us on Twitterat Do Not Fail Our Pod. You
can find me on Twitter and letterboxat Mumbles three K, and you can
(40:07):
also find me on my website,film damagepod dot com doing a show called
film Damage, which we haven't donefor a really long time, but we
will sooner or later depending on howthings go. All right, So I
guess that's pretty much it. Yeah, thanks for listening, until next time
(40:27):
when the last game of the season. Join the Revolution, Join the Nerd Party.
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