August 11, 2021 • 43 mins
Welcome to Training Montage, the new show about sports movies on the Nerd Party Network. In each episode, co-hosts Lance and Mike will look at a different sports movie, as well as the sport it portrays. In the premiere episode, they look at the Citizen Kane of sports movies, Martin Scorsese’s Raging Bull. Lance and Mike discuss their personal relationship with boxing, how it is portrayed in the movie. They also break down what makes Raging Bull one of the best movies ever made.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:03):
Welcome to the nerd polity. Welcomeeverybody to Training Montage. I'm Lance,
(00:24):
I'm Mike, and today we aregoing to be discussing some boxing. I'm
gonna be talking Raging Bull, aclassic. Yeah, yeah, our very
first episode. It seems like itmakes sense to do a boxing movie for
the first episode of Training Montage.Yes, you know, most boxing movies
(00:47):
I think have training montages. Thisone doesn't. Course, no spoilers,
but still well, I mean,yeah, this is kind of like I
wouldn't want to say the granddaddy ofthem all, but what a film though,
I would say it is the granddaddyof them all, which I think
is you know why it's the perfectchoice to start up this series because if
(01:08):
you look at like any list,whether it's the AFI, the Director's Guild,
the anything like you know, thethe Citan sound List. You know,
I mean like, this is consideredto be one of the greatest movies
ever made period. Yeah, youlook at the movies which are above it,
and none of them are sports movies. So it is not it is
(01:32):
not a stretch to say this isthe Citizen Kane of sports movie. You
know, that's true. Now tothink about it, a little bit more.
Yeah, I was just kind ofI guess going, going, you
know, chronologically with with things whenI was thinking that. But your explanation
is a good one. That's thatmakes sense. Yeah yeah, So so
what are we doing here? Whatis this show? Why are we not
(01:55):
talking about news? Well? Youand I are both in the interesting our
Ben diagram is an interesting one becausewe we can we can talk about sports
as we normally do, but beforewe started recording the news, before we're
back, you know, a coupleof weeks ago, and we also can
(02:15):
talk about movies and the industry andall this other stuff. And so that's
when we had the ideas like,hey, well let's just do this little
bit of our our Ben diagram asa show. And so here we are
because there's not that many sports fanswho are also like in the nerd community,
you know, correct, I mean, sports ball is a thing for
a reason, right, Yes,And that's okay, you know, I
(02:38):
mean certainly I get it. Imean I I my absolute favorite story is
at the music Box the night thatthe Cubs won the pennant back in whatever
it was, twenty yeah, whateverit was. I don't I don't pay
attention to the Cubs. Um,but music boxes in Wrigleyville, like literally
(02:59):
within walking distance of Wrigley Field,and they have their own custom jersey over
there at music Box. No,they don't, those awful jerseys. I
think I think that the music Boxtends to dislike the Cubs because when there's
a Cubs game, there's absolutely noparking for the music box. You know.
But regardless of that, you know, yes, the Cubs were winning
(03:22):
the pennant, but also simultaneously,the music Box was showing a thirty five
millimeter print of Highlander, which wasbeing introduced by like Nick Offerman or something
like that. So as the Cubswere winning the pennant, there there was
a line going down the block ofthe music Box waiting to get into Highlander.
(03:47):
And as all these drunk frat boyswere running around going crazy because the
Cubs are finally going to the WorldSeries, the Highlander line started chanting spots
sports sports, you know, andyet perfect. It's sort of like the
the the perfect, um, Idon't know, representation of of what it's
(04:12):
like to be a nerd in sportsworld. Yes, but but we we
cross over. I mean, ifit was leading socks, I mean,
I don't know if I would godown to the cell to it, you
know, I mean I went downthere, I guess the night that they
wanted the pennant to try to buya hat store was closed, so I
came back and then that was it. But um, yeah, I don't
(04:35):
know. It seems like it seemslike there's there's a gap in that in
that thing, right. Yeah.It's almost like it's almost like it's like
a unwritten rule that you can't can'tserve two masters, you know what I
mean. It's like you have tokind of pick a lane. And so
the people, the people that thatwalk both, they're they're kind of like
(04:56):
Blade, right, They're like theDayWalker. They exist in both worlds.
It's absolutely true. Yes, Soyeah, I mean, or if we
want to go the sports root,it's it's kind of like bo Jackson,
Yes, exactly either analysis, right, yeah, but but half the people
(05:18):
listening wouldn't get one or the other. You know that I'm not true,
I know, right, but weget both, and we figured like,
hey, well that's unique. Solet's talk about some sports movies. Let's
do it all right, So,yes, Raging Bowl, right, I
mean, how do you not startwith that it's the greatest of all time.
(05:41):
It's not not my personal favorite,but yeah, yeah, and that's
and that's the thing like when whenrewatching it, because I I saw this
so long ago, and then it'sit's funny, I never really revisited it.
I like except for maybe a sceneor two here or there, right,
and I think you know which onesthat like you revisit, but like
watching you know, the movie fromstart to finish. I haven't done that
(06:02):
so long, and so when Iwatched I was like the entire time,
I was like, dang, thisis really good. The entire time.
This is just really good. Likeeverything about it. I was like,
this is just really good. Andlike even from the beginning and we'll get
into that later, but like justjust the opening title card and the opening
(06:23):
shot though that you get there,everything that goes into that sequence, everything
from there to the very last scene. It's just like this is such a
well made piece of art from startto finish. It's it's incredible. And
you know, the boxing aspect ofit, Like, what is your relationship
to boxing? I basically have norelationship to boxing. It's my My relationship
(06:45):
to boxing is basically through the movies, you know. Yeah, I mean
in a lot of ways. Itis like I think, you know,
kind of what we're talking about withnerds relationship to sports being through the movies,
okay. And you know part ofthat is because you know, I
mean my parents would not let mewatch boxing when I was a kid.
My mom was was very much aboutpeace and love. She wouldn't let me
(07:08):
play with g I Joe or anythinglike that. And you know, the
idea of like a sport where youknow, the the the goal is to
knock your opponent unconscious, to beatyour opponent unconscious like that is you know.
I guess they felt that was inappropriatefor kids. So because of that,
(07:30):
I never I never got into it, you know. And it's it's
really through movies that you kind oflike see to me anyway, the um
the human element to it, youknow, I mean, like Rocky being
like the prime example of that,right. But you know, I think
Raging Bull and the way that itportrays boxing is kind of like the reason
(07:55):
why I have no interest in it. I can get into that a little
bit and later on. So,so what about you, what's your relationship
with boxing? I grew up watchingboxing all, you know, with my
dad, Like you know, Iwould hear he would tell stories about,
you know, going to all thesebig time fights, like he got to
see Muhammad Ali fight. Right,Like he had three things on his wall
(08:18):
in his office. He had hishis his diplomas, and the poster of
Muhammad Ali with his fist both fistsup over dude who's unconscious. Like,
those are the things that were onhis wall, right, And so we
and we would watch like a tapedold fight of all these people, right,
and then we will watch ESPN's Fridaynight Fight Night. And then we
(08:39):
would pay per view fights. Andthen my uncles would have parties for for
big time pay per view fights.And some of the times when I was
allowed to go, I would goand be like you know, and I
would just be watching all these thingseverything from like all the Tyson fights,
holy Field, Lennox, Lewis,like all these people. I would watch
(09:01):
all these things at of course,like the like you know that whole night
the undercard. I'd stay up andwatch these grown men watch these these fights,
and just it was just enthralling,right, And then that fueled my
love for you know, boxing moviesas well, and in particular Rocky,
Like, you know, probably myfavorite film franchise, and I've loved those
movies from the jump. Right.A lot of it had to do with
(09:24):
the fact that I would watched Boxingwith family for as long as I did
when I was young. Yeah,yeah, that makes sense, you know,
and it is I mean, youknow, bringing up Rocky again.
You know, it is weird thatthat is sort of like the crossover point
for a lot of people. Likemy mom, who wouldn't let me watch
Boxing, loves the Rocky movies becausebecause she loves the character so much,
(09:46):
you know. So it's kind ofinteresting that that there is that that sort
of like crossover um Raging Bull.Uh, maybe not so much, but
yeah, I mean it it's it'sa really interesting movie in a lot of
ways, because I mean it iskind of like the the anti Rocky in
(10:07):
a sense, right, I meanwatching it again now, and I mean
like like you're talking about like seeingit before and and thinking that it's,
you know, a masterpiece and yetnot wanting to revisit it, Like it
totally makes sense. I mean,I'm kind of the same way, Like
every time I watch it, I'mlike, this is one of the best
movies I've ever made. But everytime I have to watch it or I'm
(10:28):
about to watch it, I'm like, this is going to be rough,
you know, because it's not.And it's a movie to watch, you
know, it doesn't it doesn't havethose little beats where you're like, you
know, let me, let meskim through it, like I was skimming
you know. Yeah, yeah,and like a lot of it, you're
just like, I don't necessarily wantto see this, you know, like
all the sort of like domestic scenesare just like uncomfortable and everything, and
(10:54):
I mean, but that speaks tohow well they're done in a lot of
ways. But like, when wasthe first time you saw this movie.
I was young. I think Isaw this this after I saw Rockies one
and two, I believe. Yeah. Now granted we had all the tapes,
but I like we watched the firsttwo Rockies and then I think my
(11:15):
dad was like, well, let'swatch a different one. This is completely
different. And I was like allright, and I was like it's black
and white, and I was like, all right, this is definitely different.
This is definitely not Rocky. Andlike you've tried to, you know,
explain some things in there too,and I think, you know,
this was what early nineties I believe, and like, you know, my
(11:37):
dad always had a point in showingme certain things, and I think this
is this might have been after weprobably watched this, if I'm thinking correctly
on this, after the first likeTyson incident. Yeah, came out because
I was asking, you know,I guess I was asking questions about certain
things and he's like, well,I think let's use this. This is
the way to kind of teach youabout it, and like this is what
(12:00):
was kind of going on. Iwas like, oh, yeah, I
do remember the first Tyson incident andit was one of those things where like
at that point in time and itis weird, and we were talking about
like staying in lanes of like nerddumb or sports dumb or whatever, and
that that is like something that Isort of like, did I guess unintentionally
in my life or maybe it wasbecause of peer pressure, but you know,
(12:22):
like the trajectory of whatever is likeI was a huge Star Wars fan
and Transformers and he Man and allthat stuff up until like the age seven,
and then I started playing t balland my world just became sports from
seven till about eleven, and thenI rediscovered Star Wars, and Star Wars
(12:48):
led to Star Trek, and StarTrek led to comics, and comics led
to you know, movies and allthat stuff, and you know, nerd
stuff became my world from age tento like I don't know, I guess
through college really, you know,not not that I wouldn't watch sports on
occasion, but I was focused onyou know, whether it was studying film
(13:09):
or whatever. And it was reallyyou know in the early aughts, you
know, actually like right before theymade their World Series run that I got
like really into baseball again. Andyou know, I went to like thirty
games in two thousand and five whenthe White Sox won the World Series and
all that stuff, and I've beenyou know, a fan of both ever
(13:31):
since. I guess I finally foundthat that middle ground when I was like
twenty five years old, so Itook it took a while, but you
know, um, but because ofthat, because of my my my age
at that time, like I waswatching you know, Sports Center every morning
before I went to school and allthat stuff, and you know, I
was just I just wanted to seesome cool, you know basketball highlights or
(13:54):
whatever it was. And you know, now all of a sudden they're talking
about like sexual assaults and stuff likethat, and I'm like, this isn't
really what I signed up for.I don't even know what's going on here,
but you know, like you're saying, raging ball, it really kind
of I don't know. I mean, I don't think it's necessarily a unique
(14:15):
story. It No, I don't. I don't know what it is.
But for some reason, it seemslike boxing attracts, ah, you know,
toxic personalities. I don't know what. Maybe it's because beating each other
to tad I don't know. Maybewell I think I read I read something,
you know, a long time ago, but it always kind of stuck
(14:35):
with me. And this is somethingthat's been reiterated, like in documentaries about
boxing um that I've seen, orinterviews with boxing people or people like that
that I've heard, like listening tosports radio and stuff, and it's like,
you don't, like, it takesa certain type of person to be
a boxer, right, or anyfighter of that of any kind of caliber.
Right. It takes a certain typeof person to be willing to step
(14:56):
in a ring and to be ableto not only dish out punishment, but
to take it because like it it'sit's it's not normal, right, And
like these people are wired differently,and athletes are wired differently from most other
people because like it takes as areas our musicians as our artists right there,
we're wired differently and they are artistsin their own type of type in
(15:20):
specific way. And with boxers,like they have to be in such a
violent mode for so often, butthat some of them, unfortunately, I
guess, in a lot of ways, just can't turn it off. And
that's what leads to the problems thatyou see in certain ways. Now it's
it's not it's regardless of the reasons, still not acceptable, right, but
(15:41):
there is that that is at leastan explanation as to the why in certain
in a lot of cases. Andyou know, with boxers, you know,
their hands, like you know,those are those are weapons, right,
like the way that the way thatthey because the way that they can
use them right when they when theyhit you, it's not just the like
(16:02):
you know, like oh he hitme, Like they can they do damage
with those fists. It's it's it'sit's crazy. And like in the movies,
that show the repercussions of what happensafter a fight as always interesting because
like He's like, we see thefighters when they come into the ring.
We see some training things every nowand then on highlight stuff. We see
them come in, we see themfight, and when we see the winner,
(16:26):
but we don't see them in thelocker room afterwards. We don't see
them at the doctor's appointment that thevery next day, we don't see him
in the recovery, right, Andthat has to be hell because like they
have to and then for a lotof them, they have to do that
again, and because for a lotof them, this is what they do
for a living, so they haveto in order to put food on their
tables. In a lot of ways, they have to recover from taking a
(16:48):
beating and get stronger so that waythey can not take a beating the next
time, so that way they canget paid to live. It's crazy.
It's a crazy mindset and not theaverage person would not be able to survive
in that mode of thinking. Yeah, yeah, no, I mean that's
definitely true. M yeah, Imean, and it is interesting to kind
of like think because like when youdo think about like boxing in the real
(17:11):
world. You know what you kindof usually think of I think is you
know, like the heavyweight champions orwhatever, you know, the people who
are boxing like once every six monthsor whatever you know or whatever it is.
Well, the thing is, theheavyweights are dead. Man. I
don't know if you knew that.I don't know that. Yeah, well
because he because I still I stillwant the heavyweight division is is pretty it's
(17:33):
pretty dormant right now. It's allabout the middle weights. Okay, all
right, the middle weights and thewelterweights. Okay, middle weights kind of
like like like our Boilmata. Yeah, yeah, Jack Lomata. I mean,
it's interesting that this is a realperson, you know, this is
a real story and the source materialfor whatever that's worth. For this this
(17:55):
movie is like his autobiography. Hewas a consults and everything like that,
and yet this does not paint himin a favorable light. Absolutely, at
least I don't think so. Idon't know, I don't think so either.
And honestly they left out things.Yeah so yeah, I mean,
I'm I'm not too familiar with,you know, the the whole story.
(18:18):
But well, for I mean,for example, like I mean, he
did way worse things, especially whenit came to his domestic violence towards towards
women. He was married seven times, Vicky was only his second wife.
Yeah, so and then like youknow, the you know, his kids
were with through an abuse, likethe arrest record his uh he started off,
(18:41):
you know, on the wrong pathand then got kind of straightened out
in a reform school and that's whenhe learned to box. So there's lots
of stuff that they leave out.They kind of drop you in when he's
already a professional fighter and somewhat somewhatwell to do, somewhat famous before he
gets his first title shot. Theydo they drop you in a particular point.
They don't. They kind of overlooka lot of things, which I
(19:03):
think is kind of what you haveto do. I mean, you know,
like the the biography movies where youstart at the very beginning and go
until the person is dead. Youknow, like those usually aren't that great,
right, I mean, because it'sjust too much and it's not you
know, I mean that's what CitizenKane is about, right, Like,
is there a particular moment that cansum up a person's life? And maybe
(19:27):
there's not, but you know,there might be a series of moments,
and it's not about like everything thatthey did, but just a couple of
key things and trying to pick youknow, just like you know, a
section or whatever, which which kindof sums up that person. I think
is an interesting challenge. And Ithink it's something that they do really well
(19:47):
here. And you totally get thefeeling for all of that stuff that went
on without them having to like explicitlysay it, right, you still realize
like that this is you know,a terrible person and everything like that,
and and I mean it is interesting. And I don't know, like his
(20:07):
involvement, I don't know if he'syou know, remorseful or was remorseful or
anything like that, but I wonderhow much of it he thought was like,
yeah, this is this is cool, this is me and this is
my story and I like this.I mean, I don't know. I
mean, I'm just I'm super curiousabout that. But like, you know,
(20:30):
you get in there and and you'reyou're just kind of like you see
this. This the recurring theme,I guess kind of is is this idea,
at least from his perspective of like, man, I just can't catch
a break, you know, whetherit's this thing or that thing. Everything,
just the ball always bounces the wrongway. But I think the movie
(20:52):
does a really good job of sayinglike, well, yeah, the ball
bounced the wrong way, but that'sbecause you did X Y, right.
Yeah, It's like you're not Thiswasn't just bad luck. I mean,
they say like nobody wants to fighthim because everybody hates him. It's like,
yeah, if if you weren't sucha jerk, maybe things would be
(21:15):
better for you, you know,But that type of thing still, this
is what comes out. That typeof thing still exists, you know today
in the fight game, especially likean MMA, it's like, you know,
people don't want to fight, youknow, for example, like Connor
McGregor, for example, a lotof people don't want to fight him because
they don't want to deal with allthe antics that come with fighting Connor McGregor,
(21:36):
right, because it's you know,and some people, like a lot
of the ones that do, it'smost mostly high profile guys who know that
there's a title shot coming and it'sit's good for their brand and you know,
but other people like, you know, oh, they're average fighters.
Is like they're not gonna they're notgonna get on that card, because why
would they. Yeah. Yeah,So the first time that I saw this
movie was I guess I was probablylike in like just starting college, and
(22:02):
the reason why I saw it wasbecause I was like, like Boogie Nights
had come out, like maybe ayear before, and I was so in
love with Boogie Knights. You know, it's not I mean, not as
much as I am now, butyou know, I mean it could it
could be the best movie ever made. I'm not sure, but it's probably
like top three or four for sure. And at the time I was just
(22:22):
there. There's a revolving list onthat just kind of depending on a mood,
you know what I mean. Yeah, definitely definitely, and we'll get
to your your favorite I think probablyin the not too distant future because it
falls into the same into the purviewof this of this series. But yeah,
because of that, you know,like I heard people talk about how
(22:45):
Raging Bowl was like a huge influenceon Boogie Nights, and I'm like,
Okay, I'm gonna need to checkout Raging Bowl. I mean, I
like Scorsese and you know, Imean I was I was only like eighteen
years old whatever, So you'll haveto forgive me for not having seen every
Martin Scorsese movie yet, but I'mlike, okay, let me, let
me check out a Raging Bowl.And as I'm watching it that first time,
(23:08):
and as I was watching it,you know, today, I all
I could think about was, like, man, like, Boogie Nights just
rips off this thing, beat forbeat, shot for shot. I mean,
they're not even pretending, right,And I guess it's okay to steal
from the best and everything, butlike it's all there, like everything,
(23:32):
and it's the funny thing. It'snot the first thing to steal something like
beat for beat. Oh no,yeah, it's not the first steal from
the best. You know. That'sthat's perfectly reasonable. And certainly Boogie Knights
has a lot going on and whatever, it's using the the Raging Bowl formula
to you know, talk about acompletely different subject and that's cool. Um.
(23:55):
But yeah, I mean, itdoesn't surprise me that I like this
movie so much, considering the factthat I like Boogie Nights so much,
but getting into that, like everythingabout it, I mean something that you
alluded to, Like, this movieworks on every single level, like but
it's like next level stuff, likeit lost the Oscar that year to ordinary
(24:25):
people. I don't know how thathappens. It doesn't make any sense to
me at all. But whatever,Um, I think history has has sided
with Raging Bowl in this debate.And yeah, I mean it all goes
back to the direction of course.But you know, you break down the
individual elements, like the script youknow, is perfect, the way that
(24:48):
it, like we're saying, tellsthis the story, um in little you
know, bits and pieces, butgives you, you know, definitely a
a I think, a a prettysolid portrayal of a person's life. Right.
DeNiro's performance, I mean toward aforce considered to be one of the
(25:10):
best ever. Yeah, And thefunny thing is, like, I think
he's one of the people, especiallynowadays, I think people forget how great
he was. Slash is right,and I think people forget like how great
his some of the roles that hedid were. And it's like, I
have this feeling every time I watchgod Father Part two, I'm just like
(25:30):
Jesus, like, like, youwatch this whole thing, it's just like
my like, my god, dude. And then you watch something like this
and she's like, oh man,you watch the Deer Hunter you're like,
my god, Like it's like it'sjust like it's just it's a snowball.
It's just like he just keeps It'slike he either keeps getting better or it's
like he's always at this like this, this this incredibly high plateau all of
(25:51):
the time. And I think,you know, like I can't even remember
the last thing I watched him in, or like you you look at things
like you know, like a Rockyand Rocky and Bullway Girl, like Meet
the Parents and the Fockers, thatmovie he did with Anne Hathaway, the
Intern, Right, you see someof this stuff and you're just like,
wait, my boys in this Okay, I guess dirty Grandpa right, like
(26:15):
he's doing this stuff. It waslike no, but like it's like nah,
like people you need to remember andrealize he was Jake Lamata like he
was he's vitok or Leo and hewas at the Deer Hunter. He's doing
all this other stuff like watch thisif you want the real full experience.
Yeah, and I think that thisperformance tops them all. You know,
I mean so many great ones,you know, Casino and everything, right,
(26:37):
you know, yeah, but butthis one I feel like tops them
all. And to me, thething that really makes it stand out.
I mean, part of it is, you know, the sort of like
the heavy, you know, realisticstuff that that's going on, like on
the domestic side of things. Butwhere it really shines to me, where
I'm just kind of like in aweis the stuff that takes place like in
(27:00):
the sixties or whatever, in thefifties and sixties when he's got the nightclub
and he's like doing the one manshow, yeah, or rehearsing his act,
and it's like for an actor ofthat caliber to act that poorly and
make it seem like he's acting poorly, yeah, Like, how do you
(27:21):
possibly do that? How do youpossibly flob those lines the way that he
does? Yeah, I mean it'sinsane, it's it's it's it's just incredible
work. And the funny thing islike when I was watching those scenes of
him, like, you know,doing his act and whatever, I like,
I've been two shows like that,and I've been too a Star Trek
convention. Yeah, well exactly right. Well, but but but keeping it
(27:47):
in in you know, in thesports van, Like I went to Tyson's
one man show like this, It'slike I was like, holy crap,
this is basically the same thing.He's just all he's missing as a lisp.
Like it's it's very similar. Also, I think Tyson's funnier, like
intentionally funnier. But but like alot of that, a lot of that
was very similar. I mean,yeah, it's I totally. I mean
(28:10):
I've never been to one of thosethings particular, but yes I can.
I have certainly been to things likethis, and it seems spot on.
I mean, you know, youknow another movie which does a fantastic job
at this one which we should talkabout at some point, is The Wrestler
with Yeah Mickey Rourke. I mean, God, that does such a good
job of sort of like capturing thatthat's sort of like celebrity, like Okay,
(28:36):
down on your luck, like you'renot quite getting the work like you
used to, and now you're tryingto find a way to make ends meet,
and like the things that you're doingwhich you wouldn't have dreamed that you
would be doing like ten years agoor whatever. But you know, this
is the reality of the situation.I mean, it's they do a great
job of that here and and youknow also in The Wrestler, but yeah,
(29:00):
I mean it's it is pretty prettycrazy. And you know, I
mean the performances obviously, that that'ssomething which which everyone always you know,
mentions, but like everything else too. I mean, the Editors Guild did
a poll of their members a fewyears back for their seventy fifth anniversary.
They ranked the top seventy five bestedited movies of all time, and number
(29:26):
one was Raging Bull. Oh wow, And I can see that. I
don't agree with it, you know, but I can definitely see it.
You can't really argue it, youknow, Yeah, I got you.
And and then you know, youlook at everything else, I mean,
like the sound design or whatever,like in those domestic scenes, like recording
that like in a real room andgetting that sort of like natural echo that
(29:48):
you don't get like on a soundstage. That just adds to the tension,
you know. Yeah, the photographyobviously, you know, I mean
that plaque and white photography is gorgeous, yea. Not to mentioned like that
shot you know where he's going,you know, when he's fighting for the
World championship and he's like it startsoff in the dressing room and takes them
all the way out and it goesup onto the thing I mean, that's
(30:11):
like one of the best shots inmovie history. Yeah, I agree.
I mean, and that's all,you know, all of those things together,
of course, you know, broughttogether by by the direction Martin's corse.
Yeah, he's pretty good, boy, He is pretty good. I
I disagree with his current Uh.I take lots of shots at him,
(30:32):
a lot, and some of themare deserve it. But I'm not going
to say that, you know,homeboy is not the master of his craft,
because he is. But uh,yeah, this is you know,
this is this is excellent work.I mean, I can't I can't deny
that. I can't hate on that, like, like not even a little
bit. He's just not a verybig fan of comic book movies. You
(30:52):
know, that's that's whatever. Youknow, well, I mean comic book
movies and anything that's not you know, a prestige thing. Like he just
he completely dismisses anything that's not AndI disagree with that. Did you see
that thing um at Christmas? Ithink it was after all that controversy came
out, his daughter posted a thingon on Instagram. Yes, he rapped
(31:15):
all of his presence in Marvel.I love that. It's good. Also,
how about like the supporting characters likelike Pesci. Yeah, like we
also I think forget that he's agood actor sometimes. Yeah, I think
we just kind of think of himas just being this like you know,
we think of him as we thinkof him more as Leo gets and like
(31:36):
a caricature of himself rather than youknow the fact that he was he was
a legit actor in his prime.And also like his story is an incredible
one as well, like you knowwhere he started, how he got started,
and everything I think is incredibly interesting, and it's like it like you
know that dude has a been diagram, Well how did he get started?
(31:59):
I don't think I familiar with thisthrough the through the Four Seasons and friend
and and he was friends with thoseguys. Oh and then they were just
like, hey, you're cool,come and be in our movies. Essentially,
well he was, you know,he was also had like he had
some mob connections, right, likeyou know, like you know that's that's
an ever present thing and in alot of these movies. But you know,
(32:20):
like he kind of you know workedhis way into into things through that,
like you know, being friends withFrankie Valley in them, and helping
them get started. Being there atthe beginning of them definitely helped him in
his career endeavors. That's interesting.Yeah, I mean there's one moment in
here with him which is I meanit's so understated, but again it's something
where it's like that is so real. How does he does he do something
(32:43):
that well? And that's um atthe end of the movie when um Uh
Jake Lamata sees him at the store. Yeah, and he's coming out of
the store and he like he walksout of the store and his brother is
like hey, and he he giveshim that look but like pretends like he
(33:05):
didn't see him. And it waslike one of those things where it's like,
I mean something where we I thinkall of us have done that or
maybe I'm just a terrible person atsome time in our lives where it's like
someone's like hey, and you pretendthat you didn't that you didn't hear that
person say hey, right, I'vedone that before, and and just and
it's like so obvious and yeah,I mean, because it's not just like
(33:27):
you walk by and completely ignore it. You gotta like acknowledge that you saw
them, but pretend that you didn't, right, Yes, And it's such
a small little I mean, it'slike a turn of his head, and
yet he does it so well,you know, yeah, I mean,
you know, he does a bunchof other stuff in the movie too,
but that's the moment that always standsout to me, that one. Yeah,
a little random moment. Yeah,yeah, it's funny. Like you
(33:52):
know, his relationship with with Jake, it's it's very much the opposite.
You know, we talked about howthis movie is like the opposite of Rocky
in a lot of ways. Well, their relationship is definitely the opposite of
Rocky and Paully, right, becauseyou know those two are are our brothers.
They become brothers in law for realspoilers for Rocky, uh Rocky two
(34:15):
to be exact. But you know, Paully was always kind of jealous of
Rocky for a good long while forseveral movies, right before he finally admits,
you know, admits it in fourand here, you know, Joey
lamata Is is his manager, likethe guy that's taken care of him and
helping him, and like it's ait's a completely different type of relationship.
(34:36):
Like it's more it's uh it's moretransactual in a lot of ways, but
at the same time familial. It'svery it's very complicated, and they the
two of them, you know,Peschi and de Niro play that's so so
well, like you could really likeyou really believe that this is what it
was and and it's and it's abelievable situation because like this is this happens
all of the time, you think, you know now, like you know,
(34:57):
people like athletes and they're like theirbrother is there is their manager,
their handle of their agent or whatever. Right, you know, there's countless
athletes that you can name that that'sthe situation. Yeah, yeah, that's
true. That's true. Yeah.So it's a good movie. I think
we're both in agreement here that thatis a good movie. Definitely worth checking
out. Yeah, watch it withthe family. I uh, my family
(35:22):
and I like we would do thesemovie nights, um and we were watching
like all of the AFI movies likein order, and this one's like number
three or four on the list,you know, so like we started up
and it's like you know, me, my mom my aunt and uncle,
my you know, ninety five yearold great aunt who's a big movie fan
(35:45):
but had never seen it before,right, and she's just like, that
was the most violent movie I've everseen in my life. I can't I
can't handle that, you know.Whereas with The Godfather, another movie which
she had never seen, she waslike, that's one of the best movies
ever made. That's funny. Soyeah, she's not wrong. No,
she's not wrong, but you know, not either really, but yeah,
(36:07):
it's true. Speaking of they,we've come a long way with fight choreography
in in movies in general, butalso boxing movies as well. We've come
a long way, Like because thisis not it's not bad, it doesn't
take you out of it, butit's like it's more sophisticated now, like
because there's more there's more attention todetail in how boxers fight and how to
(36:30):
choreograph fights to where it's like thepeople who are fighting are actually the people
we are fighting. Like so inthis case, like they would have like
a boxing consultants work with the peoplewho are going to do the fight scenes,
like this is how this is howit should look. I think we
have a This movie definitely fits thebill of you know, boxers gonna fight,
(36:51):
so this is what we're just gonnado as opposed to like a boxing
person being like, well, thisis actually how it would actually look.
It's like somebody like kind of tellingyou based off of what they saw,
like they went to a live boxingaction that had to describe it to you.
That's kind of what the the thefight scenes kind of look like in
here. Yeah, and their theiraction packed, but nobody really does the
punches that that that that Jake wasthrowing, like the multiple like you know,
(37:14):
machine gun type shots to the body. Nobody really does that in real
life. Uh. And then someof the punishment that people were taking,
Nobody really takes that amount of punishmentwithout going down, like you know the
you know that famous scene where he'stelling Sugary Robinson He's like, hey,
hey, I didn't go down.I didn't go down. Great scene,
right, but like in real life, because you know, Sugary Robinson is
(37:37):
by many accounts and by many listsand by many smart people in in the
sport, the greatest boxer who everlived, right, and and if he
if he was, if Ray Robinsonwas going to give that type of punishment
out, you'd be like, especiallythe ones that that was showcased in this
film, you'd be dead. Yeah, I think that movies like this have
(37:58):
kind of ruined like real boxing forme, because like I see this and
I'm like, oh man, youknow, it's so well done. It
seems so realistic and everything. Andthen like I see a clip from like
a real boxing match and someone likepunches someone else and they go down,
and I'm like, that's it,Like that was it? Like he barely
touched him, you know, Imean, that's what. Well, here's
(38:20):
the thing. That's what it lookslike to us. They barely touched him,
but right, exactly. But I'msure it feels a bit differently.
But but I mean, I guessto the movie's credit like this felt like
I said, this looked like itfeels right. So I mean it's certainly
stylized. I mean, I meanone of the things which of course everyone
talks about, which is just imperceptible, but such a I mean, it
(38:44):
speaks again to Scorsese's like genius islike the way that he would change the
size of the rings based on thescene in order to make it seem more
claustrophobic or whatever, like you're supposedto be uncomfortable in the ring. Yeah,
and that's that's that's a brilliant that'sa brilliant notion. Yeah, I
mean it's so so interesting just thedetail there, so it's crazy. But
(39:05):
yeah, yeah, oh well allright, so favorite do you have any
favorite scenes? I mean, definitelythe shot where he's going in to fight
the championship, the one where hewins, you know, where it takes
you from the locker room to thering and then upon the crane. That
that's definitely my favorite scene in themovie. What about you, Well,
(39:25):
not so much because it's not ascene really, but honestly my favorite part
of the movie. For as foras many wonderful things that happened in this
movie, my favorite part of themovie is the title card. And and
that's all I mean because it's beautiful. Number one and number two. The
music underneath it is one of myfavorite pieces ever. It's the intermedzo from
(39:47):
the Cavalier Roustakania. It's an operaPietro Mascagni, and it's one of my
all time favorite pieces of music thereis. I've had the the good fortune
of quote unquote playing it in ain a region orchestra concert, and I
have quotation marks around me playing itbecause there is no trombone part on that
(40:08):
or I was just on stage,but I got to sit there and just
like soak it in and listen toit because it's funny because like I had
when when we did that piece,this is when I was in high school,
I had no idea what it wascalled. I just knew it was
like a song from Raging Bull.And so like they start rehearsing and of
course I'm not doing anything because Idon't play on this piece at all.
There's no trombone part. And Iturned the dude next to me. I
(40:30):
was like, oh, it waslike, dude, this is the song
from Raging Bull. And he lookedat me, like what are you talking
about? And I was like inthe boxing movie and he just kind of
looked at It's like I don't knowwhat you're talking about. And so again
this is this is you know,this is a snippet into my life.
Like I my ven diagrams are likeare very multiple and very specific. Like
(40:52):
I've seen the opera of Cavalleria Rustakania. I can talk about this movie,
and I watched like all these othersports other things. So that's that's a
snippet into my life there, you'reyou're you're a renaissance man apparently. Okay,
all right, just like wasn't you? Isn't that Joe Pasty? Especially
in that movie Man? All right? He is? He is tying it
(41:14):
all together? Yeah, alright,any final thoughts on Raging Bull. It's
it's a ten out of ten.It's a knockout. Agreed, agreed,
alright. So, uh, nextepisode, we're gonna tie some stuff into
some real world stuff. Um,there's a movie which was based on a
(41:42):
real live sporting event, and nowthere's going to be a real live sporting
event based on that movie. What'sgoing on? Crazy? But yes,
Field of Dreams, there's going tobe a Field of Dreams game coming up
in a not too distant future,and in order to prepare for that,
(42:04):
we're gonna take a look at Fieldof Dreams. Yeah, all right,
should be interesting. It should beinteresting. Until then, Lance, Where
can people find you on the Internet. They can find me at Sir Lance
Laster on all of my social media'sand you can also find me over on
the United Federation of Podcasts talking aboutall of the things that make Arrow Arrow
on. Always hold on to Arrow, and you can find us on Twitter
(42:28):
at Do Not Fail Our Pod,and you can find me on Twitter and
letterbox at Mumbles three k. Andyou can also find me on my website
film damagepod dot com, where Ido a show called Film Damage. Haven't
done much recently, but we're goingto be getting into it soon because new
episodes of Star Trek Lower Decks areright on the way, so can't wait.
Yep, new commentaries for all those. It'll be fun, all right.
(42:52):
Should we wrap this up? Let'sdo it. Thanks for listening and
we'll talk to you soon. Yeah. Join the Revolution, Join the nerd Party.
Welcome to the nerd polity. Welcomeeverybody to Training Montage. I'm Lance,
(00:24):
I'm Mike, and today we aregoing to be discussing some boxing. I'm
gonna be talking Raging Bull, aclassic. Yeah, yeah, our very
first episode. It seems like itmakes sense to do a boxing movie for
the first episode of Training Montage.Yes, you know, most boxing movies
(00:47):
I think have training montages. Thisone doesn't. Course, no spoilers,
but still well, I mean,yeah, this is kind of like I
wouldn't want to say the granddaddy ofthem all, but what a film though,
I would say it is the granddaddyof them all, which I think
is you know why it's the perfectchoice to start up this series because if
(01:08):
you look at like any list,whether it's the AFI, the Director's Guild,
the anything like you know, thethe Citan sound List. You know,
I mean like, this is consideredto be one of the greatest movies
ever made period. Yeah, youlook at the movies which are above it,
and none of them are sports movies. So it is not it is
(01:32):
not a stretch to say this isthe Citizen Kane of sports movie. You
know, that's true. Now tothink about it, a little bit more.
Yeah, I was just kind ofI guess going, going, you
know, chronologically with with things whenI was thinking that. But your explanation
is a good one. That's thatmakes sense. Yeah yeah, So so
what are we doing here? Whatis this show? Why are we not
(01:55):
talking about news? Well? Youand I are both in the interesting our
Ben diagram is an interesting one becausewe we can we can talk about sports
as we normally do, but beforewe started recording the news, before we're
back, you know, a coupleof weeks ago, and we also can
(02:15):
talk about movies and the industry andall this other stuff. And so that's
when we had the ideas like,hey, well let's just do this little
bit of our our Ben diagram asa show. And so here we are
because there's not that many sports fanswho are also like in the nerd community,
you know, correct, I mean, sports ball is a thing for
a reason, right, Yes,And that's okay, you know, I
(02:38):
mean certainly I get it. Imean I I my absolute favorite story is
at the music Box the night thatthe Cubs won the pennant back in whatever
it was, twenty yeah, whateverit was. I don't I don't pay
attention to the Cubs. Um,but music boxes in Wrigleyville, like literally
(02:59):
within walking distance of Wrigley Field,and they have their own custom jersey over
there at music Box. No,they don't, those awful jerseys. I
think I think that the music Boxtends to dislike the Cubs because when there's
a Cubs game, there's absolutely noparking for the music box. You know.
But regardless of that, you know, yes, the Cubs were winning
(03:22):
the pennant, but also simultaneously,the music Box was showing a thirty five
millimeter print of Highlander, which wasbeing introduced by like Nick Offerman or something
like that. So as the Cubswere winning the pennant, there there was
a line going down the block ofthe music Box waiting to get into Highlander.
(03:47):
And as all these drunk frat boyswere running around going crazy because the
Cubs are finally going to the WorldSeries, the Highlander line started chanting spots
sports sports, you know, andyet perfect. It's sort of like the
the the perfect, um, Idon't know, representation of of what it's
(04:12):
like to be a nerd in sportsworld. Yes, but but we we
cross over. I mean, ifit was leading socks, I mean,
I don't know if I would godown to the cell to it, you
know, I mean I went downthere, I guess the night that they
wanted the pennant to try to buya hat store was closed, so I
came back and then that was it. But um, yeah, I don't
(04:35):
know. It seems like it seemslike there's there's a gap in that in
that thing, right. Yeah.It's almost like it's almost like it's like
a unwritten rule that you can't can'tserve two masters, you know what I
mean. It's like you have tokind of pick a lane. And so
the people, the people that thatwalk both, they're they're kind of like
(04:56):
Blade, right, They're like theDayWalker. They exist in both worlds.
It's absolutely true. Yes, Soyeah, I mean, or if we
want to go the sports root,it's it's kind of like bo Jackson,
Yes, exactly either analysis, right, yeah, but but half the people
(05:18):
listening wouldn't get one or the other. You know that I'm not true,
I know, right, but weget both, and we figured like,
hey, well that's unique. Solet's talk about some sports movies. Let's
do it all right, So,yes, Raging Bowl, right, I
mean, how do you not startwith that it's the greatest of all time.
(05:41):
It's not not my personal favorite,but yeah, yeah, and that's
and that's the thing like when whenrewatching it, because I I saw this
so long ago, and then it'sit's funny, I never really revisited it.
I like except for maybe a sceneor two here or there, right,
and I think you know which onesthat like you revisit, but like
watching you know, the movie fromstart to finish. I haven't done that
(06:02):
so long, and so when Iwatched I was like the entire time,
I was like, dang, thisis really good. The entire time.
This is just really good. Likeeverything about it. I was like,
this is just really good. Andlike even from the beginning and we'll get
into that later, but like justjust the opening title card and the opening
(06:23):
shot though that you get there,everything that goes into that sequence, everything
from there to the very last scene. It's just like this is such a
well made piece of art from startto finish. It's it's incredible. And
you know, the boxing aspect ofit, Like, what is your relationship
to boxing? I basically have norelationship to boxing. It's my My relationship
(06:45):
to boxing is basically through the movies, you know. Yeah, I mean
in a lot of ways. Itis like I think, you know,
kind of what we're talking about withnerds relationship to sports being through the movies,
okay. And you know part ofthat is because you know, I
mean my parents would not let mewatch boxing when I was a kid.
My mom was was very much aboutpeace and love. She wouldn't let me
(07:08):
play with g I Joe or anythinglike that. And you know, the
idea of like a sport where youknow, the the the goal is to
knock your opponent unconscious, to beatyour opponent unconscious like that is you know.
I guess they felt that was inappropriatefor kids. So because of that,
(07:30):
I never I never got into it, you know. And it's it's
really through movies that you kind oflike see to me anyway, the um
the human element to it, youknow, I mean, like Rocky being
like the prime example of that,right. But you know, I think
Raging Bull and the way that itportrays boxing is kind of like the reason
(07:55):
why I have no interest in it. I can get into that a little
bit and later on. So,so what about you, what's your relationship
with boxing? I grew up watchingboxing all, you know, with my
dad, Like you know, Iwould hear he would tell stories about,
you know, going to all thesebig time fights, like he got to
see Muhammad Ali fight. Right,Like he had three things on his wall
(08:18):
in his office. He had hishis his diplomas, and the poster of
Muhammad Ali with his fist both fistsup over dude who's unconscious. Like,
those are the things that were onhis wall, right, And so we
and we would watch like a tapedold fight of all these people, right,
and then we will watch ESPN's Fridaynight Fight Night. And then we
(08:39):
would pay per view fights. Andthen my uncles would have parties for for
big time pay per view fights.And some of the times when I was
allowed to go, I would goand be like you know, and I
would just be watching all these thingseverything from like all the Tyson fights,
holy Field, Lennox, Lewis,like all these people. I would watch
(09:01):
all these things at of course,like the like you know that whole night
the undercard. I'd stay up andwatch these grown men watch these these fights,
and just it was just enthralling,right, And then that fueled my
love for you know, boxing moviesas well, and in particular Rocky,
Like, you know, probably myfavorite film franchise, and I've loved those
movies from the jump. Right.A lot of it had to do with
(09:24):
the fact that I would watched Boxingwith family for as long as I did
when I was young. Yeah,yeah, that makes sense, you know,
and it is I mean, youknow, bringing up Rocky again.
You know, it is weird thatthat is sort of like the crossover point
for a lot of people. Likemy mom, who wouldn't let me watch
Boxing, loves the Rocky movies becausebecause she loves the character so much,
(09:46):
you know. So it's kind ofinteresting that that there is that that sort
of like crossover um Raging Bull.Uh, maybe not so much, but
yeah, I mean it it's it'sa really interesting movie in a lot of
ways, because I mean it iskind of like the the anti Rocky in
(10:07):
a sense, right, I meanwatching it again now, and I mean
like like you're talking about like seeingit before and and thinking that it's,
you know, a masterpiece and yetnot wanting to revisit it, Like it
totally makes sense. I mean,I'm kind of the same way, Like
every time I watch it, I'mlike, this is one of the best
movies I've ever made. But everytime I have to watch it or I'm
(10:28):
about to watch it, I'm like, this is going to be rough,
you know, because it's not.And it's a movie to watch, you
know, it doesn't it doesn't havethose little beats where you're like, you
know, let me, let meskim through it, like I was skimming
you know. Yeah, yeah,and like a lot of it, you're
just like, I don't necessarily wantto see this, you know, like
all the sort of like domestic scenesare just like uncomfortable and everything, and
(10:54):
I mean, but that speaks tohow well they're done in a lot of
ways. But like, when wasthe first time you saw this movie.
I was young. I think Isaw this this after I saw Rockies one
and two, I believe. Yeah. Now granted we had all the tapes,
but I like we watched the firsttwo Rockies and then I think my
(11:15):
dad was like, well, let'swatch a different one. This is completely
different. And I was like allright, and I was like it's black
and white, and I was like, all right, this is definitely different.
This is definitely not Rocky. Andlike you've tried to, you know,
explain some things in there too,and I think, you know,
this was what early nineties I believe, and like, you know, my
(11:37):
dad always had a point in showingme certain things, and I think this
is this might have been after weprobably watched this, if I'm thinking correctly
on this, after the first likeTyson incident. Yeah, came out because
I was asking, you know,I guess I was asking questions about certain
things and he's like, well,I think let's use this. This is
the way to kind of teach youabout it, and like this is what
(12:00):
was kind of going on. Iwas like, oh, yeah, I
do remember the first Tyson incident andit was one of those things where like
at that point in time and itis weird, and we were talking about
like staying in lanes of like nerddumb or sports dumb or whatever, and
that that is like something that Isort of like, did I guess unintentionally
in my life or maybe it wasbecause of peer pressure, but you know,
(12:22):
like the trajectory of whatever is likeI was a huge Star Wars fan
and Transformers and he Man and allthat stuff up until like the age seven,
and then I started playing t balland my world just became sports from
seven till about eleven, and thenI rediscovered Star Wars, and Star Wars
(12:48):
led to Star Trek, and StarTrek led to comics, and comics led
to you know, movies and allthat stuff, and you know, nerd
stuff became my world from age tento like I don't know, I guess
through college really, you know,not not that I wouldn't watch sports on
occasion, but I was focused onyou know, whether it was studying film
(13:09):
or whatever. And it was reallyyou know in the early aughts, you
know, actually like right before theymade their World Series run that I got
like really into baseball again. Andyou know, I went to like thirty
games in two thousand and five whenthe White Sox won the World Series and
all that stuff, and I've beenyou know, a fan of both ever
(13:31):
since. I guess I finally foundthat that middle ground when I was like
twenty five years old, so Itook it took a while, but you
know, um, but because ofthat, because of my my my age
at that time, like I waswatching you know, Sports Center every morning
before I went to school and allthat stuff, and you know, I
was just I just wanted to seesome cool, you know basketball highlights or
(13:54):
whatever it was. And you know, now all of a sudden they're talking
about like sexual assaults and stuff likethat, and I'm like, this isn't
really what I signed up for.I don't even know what's going on here,
but you know, like you're saying, raging ball, it really kind
of I don't know. I mean, I don't think it's necessarily a unique
(14:15):
story. It No, I don't. I don't know what it is.
But for some reason, it seemslike boxing attracts, ah, you know,
toxic personalities. I don't know what. Maybe it's because beating each other
to tad I don't know. Maybewell I think I read I read something,
you know, a long time ago, but it always kind of stuck
(14:35):
with me. And this is somethingthat's been reiterated, like in documentaries about
boxing um that I've seen, orinterviews with boxing people or people like that
that I've heard, like listening tosports radio and stuff, and it's like,
you don't, like, it takesa certain type of person to be
a boxer, right, or anyfighter of that of any kind of caliber.
Right. It takes a certain typeof person to be willing to step
(14:56):
in a ring and to be ableto not only dish out punishment, but
to take it because like it it'sit's it's not normal, right, And
like these people are wired differently,and athletes are wired differently from most other
people because like it takes as areas our musicians as our artists right there,
we're wired differently and they are artistsin their own type of type in
(15:20):
specific way. And with boxers,like they have to be in such a
violent mode for so often, butthat some of them, unfortunately, I
guess, in a lot of ways, just can't turn it off. And
that's what leads to the problems thatyou see in certain ways. Now it's
it's not it's regardless of the reasons, still not acceptable, right, but
(15:41):
there is that that is at leastan explanation as to the why in certain
in a lot of cases. Andyou know, with boxers, you know,
their hands, like you know,those are those are weapons, right,
like the way that the way thatthey because the way that they can
use them right when they when theyhit you, it's not just the like
(16:02):
you know, like oh he hitme, Like they can they do damage
with those fists. It's it's it'sit's crazy. And like in the movies,
that show the repercussions of what happensafter a fight as always interesting because
like He's like, we see thefighters when they come into the ring.
We see some training things every nowand then on highlight stuff. We see
them come in, we see themfight, and when we see the winner,
(16:26):
but we don't see them in thelocker room afterwards. We don't see
them at the doctor's appointment that thevery next day, we don't see him
in the recovery, right, Andthat has to be hell because like they
have to and then for a lotof them, they have to do that
again, and because for a lotof them, this is what they do
for a living, so they haveto in order to put food on their
tables. In a lot of ways, they have to recover from taking a
(16:48):
beating and get stronger so that waythey can not take a beating the next
time, so that way they canget paid to live. It's crazy.
It's a crazy mindset and not theaverage person would not be able to survive
in that mode of thinking. Yeah, yeah, no, I mean that's
definitely true. M yeah, Imean, and it is interesting to kind
of like think because like when youdo think about like boxing in the real
(17:11):
world. You know what you kindof usually think of I think is you
know, like the heavyweight champions orwhatever, you know, the people who
are boxing like once every six monthsor whatever you know or whatever it is.
Well, the thing is, theheavyweights are dead. Man. I
don't know if you knew that.I don't know that. Yeah, well
because he because I still I stillwant the heavyweight division is is pretty it's
(17:33):
pretty dormant right now. It's allabout the middle weights. Okay, all
right, the middle weights and thewelterweights. Okay, middle weights kind of
like like like our Boilmata. Yeah, yeah, Jack Lomata. I mean,
it's interesting that this is a realperson, you know, this is
a real story and the source materialfor whatever that's worth. For this this
(17:55):
movie is like his autobiography. Hewas a consults and everything like that,
and yet this does not paint himin a favorable light. Absolutely, at
least I don't think so. Idon't know, I don't think so either.
And honestly they left out things.Yeah so yeah, I mean,
I'm I'm not too familiar with,you know, the the whole story.
(18:18):
But well, for I mean,for example, like I mean, he
did way worse things, especially whenit came to his domestic violence towards towards
women. He was married seven times, Vicky was only his second wife.
Yeah, so and then like youknow, the you know, his kids
were with through an abuse, likethe arrest record his uh he started off,
(18:41):
you know, on the wrong pathand then got kind of straightened out
in a reform school and that's whenhe learned to box. So there's lots
of stuff that they leave out.They kind of drop you in when he's
already a professional fighter and somewhat somewhatwell to do, somewhat famous before he
gets his first title shot. Theydo they drop you in a particular point.
They don't. They kind of overlooka lot of things, which I
(19:03):
think is kind of what you haveto do. I mean, you know,
like the the biography movies where youstart at the very beginning and go
until the person is dead. Youknow, like those usually aren't that great,
right, I mean, because it'sjust too much and it's not you
know, I mean that's what CitizenKane is about, right, Like,
is there a particular moment that cansum up a person's life? And maybe
(19:27):
there's not, but you know,there might be a series of moments,
and it's not about like everything thatthey did, but just a couple of
key things and trying to pick youknow, just like you know, a
section or whatever, which which kindof sums up that person. I think
is an interesting challenge. And Ithink it's something that they do really well
(19:47):
here. And you totally get thefeeling for all of that stuff that went
on without them having to like explicitlysay it, right, you still realize
like that this is you know,a terrible person and everything like that,
and and I mean it is interesting. And I don't know, like his
(20:07):
involvement, I don't know if he'syou know, remorseful or was remorseful or
anything like that, but I wonderhow much of it he thought was like,
yeah, this is this is cool, this is me and this is
my story and I like this.I mean, I don't know. I
mean, I'm just I'm super curiousabout that. But like, you know,
(20:30):
you get in there and and you'reyou're just kind of like you see
this. This the recurring theme,I guess kind of is is this idea,
at least from his perspective of like, man, I just can't catch
a break, you know, whetherit's this thing or that thing. Everything,
just the ball always bounces the wrongway. But I think the movie
(20:52):
does a really good job of sayinglike, well, yeah, the ball
bounced the wrong way, but that'sbecause you did X Y, right.
Yeah, It's like you're not Thiswasn't just bad luck. I mean,
they say like nobody wants to fighthim because everybody hates him. It's like,
yeah, if if you weren't sucha jerk, maybe things would be
(21:15):
better for you, you know,But that type of thing still, this
is what comes out. That typeof thing still exists, you know today
in the fight game, especially likean MMA, it's like, you know,
people don't want to fight, youknow, for example, like Connor
McGregor, for example, a lotof people don't want to fight him because
they don't want to deal with allthe antics that come with fighting Connor McGregor,
(21:36):
right, because it's you know,and some people, like a lot
of the ones that do, it'smost mostly high profile guys who know that
there's a title shot coming and it'sit's good for their brand and you know,
but other people like, you know, oh, they're average fighters.
Is like they're not gonna they're notgonna get on that card, because why
would they. Yeah. Yeah,So the first time that I saw this
movie was I guess I was probablylike in like just starting college, and
(22:02):
the reason why I saw it wasbecause I was like, like Boogie Nights
had come out, like maybe ayear before, and I was so in
love with Boogie Knights. You know, it's not I mean, not as
much as I am now, butyou know, I mean it could it
could be the best movie ever made. I'm not sure, but it's probably
like top three or four for sure. And at the time I was just
(22:22):
there. There's a revolving list onthat just kind of depending on a mood,
you know what I mean. Yeah, definitely definitely, and we'll get
to your your favorite I think probablyin the not too distant future because it
falls into the same into the purviewof this of this series. But yeah,
because of that, you know,like I heard people talk about how
(22:45):
Raging Bowl was like a huge influenceon Boogie Nights, and I'm like,
Okay, I'm gonna need to checkout Raging Bowl. I mean, I
like Scorsese and you know, Imean I was I was only like eighteen
years old whatever, So you'll haveto forgive me for not having seen every
Martin Scorsese movie yet, but I'mlike, okay, let me, let
me check out a Raging Bowl.And as I'm watching it that first time,
(23:08):
and as I was watching it,you know, today, I all
I could think about was, like, man, like, Boogie Nights just
rips off this thing, beat forbeat, shot for shot. I mean,
they're not even pretending, right,And I guess it's okay to steal
from the best and everything, butlike it's all there, like everything,
(23:32):
and it's the funny thing. It'snot the first thing to steal something like
beat for beat. Oh no,yeah, it's not the first steal from
the best. You know. That'sthat's perfectly reasonable. And certainly Boogie Knights
has a lot going on and whatever, it's using the the Raging Bowl formula
to you know, talk about acompletely different subject and that's cool. Um.
(23:55):
But yeah, I mean, itdoesn't surprise me that I like this
movie so much, considering the factthat I like Boogie Nights so much,
but getting into that, like everythingabout it, I mean something that you
alluded to, Like, this movieworks on every single level, like but
it's like next level stuff, likeit lost the Oscar that year to ordinary
(24:25):
people. I don't know how thathappens. It doesn't make any sense to
me at all. But whatever,Um, I think history has has sided
with Raging Bowl in this debate.And yeah, I mean it all goes
back to the direction of course.But you know, you break down the
individual elements, like the script youknow, is perfect, the way that
(24:48):
it, like we're saying, tellsthis the story, um in little you
know, bits and pieces, butgives you, you know, definitely a
a I think, a a prettysolid portrayal of a person's life. Right.
DeNiro's performance, I mean toward aforce considered to be one of the
(25:10):
best ever. Yeah, And thefunny thing is, like, I think
he's one of the people, especiallynowadays, I think people forget how great
he was. Slash is right,and I think people forget like how great
his some of the roles that hedid were. And it's like, I
have this feeling every time I watchgod Father Part two, I'm just like
(25:30):
Jesus, like, like, youwatch this whole thing, it's just like
my like, my god, dude. And then you watch something like this
and she's like, oh man,you watch the Deer Hunter you're like,
my god, Like it's like it'sjust like it's just it's a snowball.
It's just like he just keeps It'slike he either keeps getting better or it's
like he's always at this like this, this this incredibly high plateau all of
(25:51):
the time. And I think,you know, like I can't even remember
the last thing I watched him in, or like you you look at things
like you know, like a Rockyand Rocky and Bullway Girl, like Meet
the Parents and the Fockers, thatmovie he did with Anne Hathaway, the
Intern, Right, you see someof this stuff and you're just like,
wait, my boys in this Okay, I guess dirty Grandpa right, like
(26:15):
he's doing this stuff. It waslike no, but like it's like nah,
like people you need to remember andrealize he was Jake Lamata like he
was he's vitok or Leo and hewas at the Deer Hunter. He's doing
all this other stuff like watch thisif you want the real full experience.
Yeah, and I think that thisperformance tops them all. You know,
I mean so many great ones,you know, Casino and everything, right,
(26:37):
you know, yeah, but butthis one I feel like tops them
all. And to me, thething that really makes it stand out.
I mean, part of it is, you know, the sort of like
the heavy, you know, realisticstuff that that's going on, like on
the domestic side of things. Butwhere it really shines to me, where
I'm just kind of like in aweis the stuff that takes place like in
(27:00):
the sixties or whatever, in thefifties and sixties when he's got the nightclub
and he's like doing the one manshow, yeah, or rehearsing his act,
and it's like for an actor ofthat caliber to act that poorly and
make it seem like he's acting poorly, yeah, Like, how do you
(27:21):
possibly do that? How do youpossibly flob those lines the way that he
does? Yeah, I mean it'sinsane, it's it's it's it's just incredible
work. And the funny thing islike when I was watching those scenes of
him, like, you know,doing his act and whatever, I like,
I've been two shows like that,and I've been too a Star Trek
convention. Yeah, well exactly right. Well, but but but keeping it
(27:47):
in in you know, in thesports van, Like I went to Tyson's
one man show like this, It'slike I was like, holy crap,
this is basically the same thing.He's just all he's missing as a lisp.
Like it's it's very similar. Also, I think Tyson's funnier, like
intentionally funnier. But but like alot of that, a lot of that
was very similar. I mean,yeah, it's I totally. I mean
(28:10):
I've never been to one of thosethings particular, but yes I can.
I have certainly been to things likethis, and it seems spot on.
I mean, you know, youknow another movie which does a fantastic job
at this one which we should talkabout at some point, is The Wrestler
with Yeah Mickey Rourke. I mean, God, that does such a good
job of sort of like capturing thatthat's sort of like celebrity, like Okay,
(28:36):
down on your luck, like you'renot quite getting the work like you
used to, and now you're tryingto find a way to make ends meet,
and like the things that you're doingwhich you wouldn't have dreamed that you
would be doing like ten years agoor whatever. But you know, this
is the reality of the situation.I mean, it's they do a great
job of that here and and youknow also in The Wrestler, but yeah,
(29:00):
I mean it's it is pretty prettycrazy. And you know, I
mean the performances obviously, that that'ssomething which which everyone always you know,
mentions, but like everything else too. I mean, the Editors Guild did
a poll of their members a fewyears back for their seventy fifth anniversary.
They ranked the top seventy five bestedited movies of all time, and number
(29:26):
one was Raging Bull. Oh wow, And I can see that. I
don't agree with it, you know, but I can definitely see it.
You can't really argue it, youknow, Yeah, I got you.
And and then you know, youlook at everything else, I mean,
like the sound design or whatever,like in those domestic scenes, like recording
that like in a real room andgetting that sort of like natural echo that
(29:48):
you don't get like on a soundstage. That just adds to the tension,
you know. Yeah, the photographyobviously, you know, I mean
that plaque and white photography is gorgeous, yea. Not to mentioned like that
shot you know where he's going,you know, when he's fighting for the
World championship and he's like it startsoff in the dressing room and takes them
all the way out and it goesup onto the thing I mean, that's
(30:11):
like one of the best shots inmovie history. Yeah, I agree.
I mean, and that's all,you know, all of those things together,
of course, you know, broughttogether by by the direction Martin's corse.
Yeah, he's pretty good, boy, He is pretty good. I
I disagree with his current Uh.I take lots of shots at him,
(30:32):
a lot, and some of themare deserve it. But I'm not going
to say that, you know,homeboy is not the master of his craft,
because he is. But uh,yeah, this is you know,
this is this is excellent work.I mean, I can't I can't deny
that. I can't hate on that, like, like not even a little
bit. He's just not a verybig fan of comic book movies. You
(30:52):
know, that's that's whatever. Youknow, well, I mean comic book
movies and anything that's not you know, a prestige thing. Like he just
he completely dismisses anything that's not AndI disagree with that. Did you see
that thing um at Christmas? Ithink it was after all that controversy came
out, his daughter posted a thingon on Instagram. Yes, he rapped
(31:15):
all of his presence in Marvel.I love that. It's good. Also,
how about like the supporting characters likelike Pesci. Yeah, like we
also I think forget that he's agood actor sometimes. Yeah, I think
we just kind of think of himas just being this like you know,
we think of him as we thinkof him more as Leo gets and like
(31:36):
a caricature of himself rather than youknow the fact that he was he was
a legit actor in his prime.And also like his story is an incredible
one as well, like you knowwhere he started, how he got started,
and everything I think is incredibly interesting, and it's like it like you
know that dude has a been diagram, Well how did he get started?
(31:59):
I don't think I familiar with thisthrough the through the Four Seasons and friend
and and he was friends with thoseguys. Oh and then they were just
like, hey, you're cool,come and be in our movies. Essentially,
well he was, you know,he was also had like he had
some mob connections, right, likeyou know, like you know that's that's
an ever present thing and in alot of these movies. But you know,
(32:20):
like he kind of you know workedhis way into into things through that,
like you know, being friends withFrankie Valley in them, and helping
them get started. Being there atthe beginning of them definitely helped him in
his career endeavors. That's interesting.Yeah, I mean there's one moment in
here with him which is I meanit's so understated, but again it's something
where it's like that is so real. How does he does he do something
(32:43):
that well? And that's um atthe end of the movie when um Uh
Jake Lamata sees him at the store. Yeah, and he's coming out of
the store and he like he walksout of the store and his brother is
like hey, and he he giveshim that look but like pretends like he
(33:05):
didn't see him. And it waslike one of those things where it's like,
I mean something where we I thinkall of us have done that or
maybe I'm just a terrible person atsome time in our lives where it's like
someone's like hey, and you pretendthat you didn't that you didn't hear that
person say hey, right, I'vedone that before, and and just and
it's like so obvious and yeah,I mean, because it's not just like
(33:27):
you walk by and completely ignore it. You gotta like acknowledge that you saw
them, but pretend that you didn't, right, Yes, And it's such
a small little I mean, it'slike a turn of his head, and
yet he does it so well,you know, yeah, I mean,
you know, he does a bunchof other stuff in the movie too,
but that's the moment that always standsout to me, that one. Yeah,
a little random moment. Yeah,yeah, it's funny. Like you
(33:52):
know, his relationship with with Jake, it's it's very much the opposite.
You know, we talked about howthis movie is like the opposite of Rocky
in a lot of ways. Well, their relationship is definitely the opposite of
Rocky and Paully, right, becauseyou know those two are are our brothers.
They become brothers in law for realspoilers for Rocky, uh Rocky two
(34:15):
to be exact. But you know, Paully was always kind of jealous of
Rocky for a good long while forseveral movies, right before he finally admits,
you know, admits it in fourand here, you know, Joey
lamata Is is his manager, likethe guy that's taken care of him and
helping him, and like it's ait's a completely different type of relationship.
(34:36):
Like it's more it's uh it's moretransactual in a lot of ways, but
at the same time familial. It'svery it's very complicated, and they the
two of them, you know,Peschi and de Niro play that's so so
well, like you could really likeyou really believe that this is what it
was and and it's and it's abelievable situation because like this is this happens
all of the time, you think, you know now, like you know,
(34:57):
people like athletes and they're like theirbrother is there is their manager,
their handle of their agent or whatever. Right, you know, there's countless
athletes that you can name that that'sthe situation. Yeah, yeah, that's
true. That's true. Yeah.So it's a good movie. I think
we're both in agreement here that thatis a good movie. Definitely worth checking
out. Yeah, watch it withthe family. I uh, my family
(35:22):
and I like we would do thesemovie nights, um and we were watching
like all of the AFI movies likein order, and this one's like number
three or four on the list,you know, so like we started up
and it's like you know, me, my mom my aunt and uncle,
my you know, ninety five yearold great aunt who's a big movie fan
(35:45):
but had never seen it before,right, and she's just like, that
was the most violent movie I've everseen in my life. I can't I
can't handle that, you know.Whereas with The Godfather, another movie which
she had never seen, she waslike, that's one of the best movies
ever made. That's funny. Soyeah, she's not wrong. No,
she's not wrong, but you know, not either really, but yeah,
(36:07):
it's true. Speaking of they,we've come a long way with fight choreography
in in movies in general, butalso boxing movies as well. We've come
a long way, Like because thisis not it's not bad, it doesn't
take you out of it, butit's like it's more sophisticated now, like
because there's more there's more attention todetail in how boxers fight and how to
(36:30):
choreograph fights to where it's like thepeople who are fighting are actually the people
we are fighting. Like so inthis case, like they would have like
a boxing consultants work with the peoplewho are going to do the fight scenes,
like this is how this is howit should look. I think we
have a This movie definitely fits thebill of you know, boxers gonna fight,
(36:51):
so this is what we're just gonnado as opposed to like a boxing
person being like, well, thisis actually how it would actually look.
It's like somebody like kind of tellingyou based off of what they saw,
like they went to a live boxingaction that had to describe it to you.
That's kind of what the the thefight scenes kind of look like in
here. Yeah, and their theiraction packed, but nobody really does the
punches that that that that Jake wasthrowing, like the multiple like you know,
(37:14):
machine gun type shots to the body. Nobody really does that in real
life. Uh. And then someof the punishment that people were taking,
Nobody really takes that amount of punishmentwithout going down, like you know the
you know that famous scene where he'stelling Sugary Robinson He's like, hey,
hey, I didn't go down.I didn't go down. Great scene,
right, but like in real life, because you know, Sugary Robinson is
(37:37):
by many accounts and by many listsand by many smart people in in the
sport, the greatest boxer who everlived, right, and and if he
if he was, if Ray Robinsonwas going to give that type of punishment
out, you'd be like, especiallythe ones that that was showcased in this
film, you'd be dead. Yeah, I think that movies like this have
(37:58):
kind of ruined like real boxing forme, because like I see this and
I'm like, oh man, youknow, it's so well done. It
seems so realistic and everything. Andthen like I see a clip from like
a real boxing match and someone likepunches someone else and they go down,
and I'm like, that's it,Like that was it? Like he barely
touched him, you know, Imean, that's what. Well, here's
(38:20):
the thing. That's what it lookslike to us. They barely touched him,
but right, exactly. But I'msure it feels a bit differently.
But but I mean, I guessto the movie's credit like this felt like
I said, this looked like itfeels right. So I mean it's certainly
stylized. I mean, I meanone of the things which of course everyone
talks about, which is just imperceptible, but such a I mean, it
(38:44):
speaks again to Scorsese's like genius islike the way that he would change the
size of the rings based on thescene in order to make it seem more
claustrophobic or whatever, like you're supposedto be uncomfortable in the ring. Yeah,
and that's that's that's a brilliant that'sa brilliant notion. Yeah, I
mean it's so so interesting just thedetail there, so it's crazy. But
(39:05):
yeah, yeah, oh well allright, so favorite do you have any
favorite scenes? I mean, definitelythe shot where he's going in to fight
the championship, the one where hewins, you know, where it takes
you from the locker room to thering and then upon the crane. That
that's definitely my favorite scene in themovie. What about you, Well,
(39:25):
not so much because it's not ascene really, but honestly my favorite part
of the movie. For as foras many wonderful things that happened in this
movie, my favorite part of themovie is the title card. And and
that's all I mean because it's beautiful. Number one and number two. The
music underneath it is one of myfavorite pieces ever. It's the intermedzo from
(39:47):
the Cavalier Roustakania. It's an operaPietro Mascagni, and it's one of my
all time favorite pieces of music thereis. I've had the the good fortune
of quote unquote playing it in ain a region orchestra concert, and I
have quotation marks around me playing itbecause there is no trombone part on that
(40:08):
or I was just on stage,but I got to sit there and just
like soak it in and listen toit because it's funny because like I had
when when we did that piece,this is when I was in high school,
I had no idea what it wascalled. I just knew it was
like a song from Raging Bull.And so like they start rehearsing and of
course I'm not doing anything because Idon't play on this piece at all.
There's no trombone part. And Iturned the dude next to me. I
(40:30):
was like, oh, it waslike, dude, this is the song
from Raging Bull. And he lookedat me, like what are you talking
about? And I was like inthe boxing movie and he just kind of
looked at It's like I don't knowwhat you're talking about. And so again
this is this is you know,this is a snippet into my life.
Like I my ven diagrams are likeare very multiple and very specific. Like
(40:52):
I've seen the opera of Cavalleria Rustakania. I can talk about this movie,
and I watched like all these othersports other things. So that's that's a
snippet into my life there, you'reyou're you're a renaissance man apparently. Okay,
all right, just like wasn't you? Isn't that Joe Pasty? Especially
in that movie Man? All right? He is? He is tying it
(41:14):
all together? Yeah, alright,any final thoughts on Raging Bull. It's
it's a ten out of ten.It's a knockout. Agreed, agreed,
alright. So, uh, nextepisode, we're gonna tie some stuff into
some real world stuff. Um,there's a movie which was based on a
(41:42):
real live sporting event, and nowthere's going to be a real live sporting
event based on that movie. What'sgoing on? Crazy? But yes,
Field of Dreams, there's going tobe a Field of Dreams game coming up
in a not too distant future,and in order to prepare for that,
(42:04):
we're gonna take a look at Fieldof Dreams. Yeah, all right,
should be interesting. It should beinteresting. Until then, Lance, Where
can people find you on the Internet. They can find me at Sir Lance
Laster on all of my social media'sand you can also find me over on
the United Federation of Podcasts talking aboutall of the things that make Arrow Arrow
on. Always hold on to Arrow, and you can find us on Twitter
(42:28):
at Do Not Fail Our Pod,and you can find me on Twitter and
letterbox at Mumbles three k. Andyou can also find me on my website
film damagepod dot com, where Ido a show called Film Damage. Haven't
done much recently, but we're goingto be getting into it soon because new
episodes of Star Trek Lower Decks areright on the way, so can't wait.
Yep, new commentaries for all those. It'll be fun, all right.
(42:52):
Should we wrap this up? Let'sdo it. Thanks for listening and
we'll talk to you soon. Yeah. Join the Revolution, Join the nerd Party.
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