Scarlet Zanarkand

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Greetings and welcome to the United States Transhumanist Party Virtual
Enlightenment Salon. My name is Jannati stolier Off the second
and I am the Chairman of the US Transhumanist Party.
Here we hold conversations with some of the world's leading
thinkers in longevity, science, technology, philosophy and politics. Like the

(00:21):
philosophers of the Age of Enlightenment, we aim to connect
every field of human endeavor and arrive at new insights
to achieve longer lives, greater rationality, and the progress of
our civilization. Greetings, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to our
US Transhumanist Party Virtual Enlightenment Salon. Today is Sunday, August tenth,

(00:46):
twenty twenty five, and we have a fascinating conversation in
store for you. First of all, brief introductions of our
panel today, including our Director of Visual Art ar Tremone
Garcia and our Director of Scholarship, Dan Elton, and hopefully
other panelists will join us as they are able. Our

(01:09):
special guest today is Scarlett Zanerkand, who is a libertarian
activist who runs the Transformation HQ server on discord and
this is a server that you can join using the
link that is provided here. This is a server that

(01:32):
advocates for both transgender persons and transhumanists, and also seeks
to be a welcoming place for all individuals and allies
of LGBTQ plus and other trans identities. The Transformation HQ
Server emphasizes personal autonomy, bioethics, and informed consent as core

(01:55):
principles and both current and theoretical forms of transformation. So
Scarlett holds the view that all transhumanists are united by
a common goal of transformation, whether that is to revert
to our younger years, to gain an increase of health
and ability, or to achieve some kind of alteration such
as the idea of becoming a cyborg. In the future.

(02:17):
She believes that all transidentities will be made possible through
technology associated with transhumanism and looks forward to seeing the progress.
And I think it is important to have a discussion
to illustrate this connection because there are a lot of misconceptions,
especially among people who don't know very much about transhumanism.

(02:41):
And I think a lot of people who don't wish
us well either let's say, religious fundamentalist critics of transhumanism
or altright conspiracy theorists or trolls will say transhumanism and
transgenderism are the same thing, or they actually may think

(03:04):
that transhumanism is more nefarious than transgenderism and is some
sort of and transgenderism is some sort of gateway for
people to get into transhumanism, which they perceive as some
sort of demonic or global elite kind of ideology. And
I hope to use the salon as a way to

(03:29):
essentially clear the record what is the real connection between
transhumanism and the transgender movement or other kinds of transformation
oriented identities or pursuits, because they're not the same. But

(03:50):
the US Transhumanist Party platform is very much in favor
of individuals exercising their autonomy to make choices that improve
their quality of life as they see it. And in
Section two of the US Transhumanist Party Platform, we support

(04:13):
all acceptance, tolerance, and inclusivity of individuals and groups of
all races, genders, classes, religions, creeds, and ideologies. So the
US Transhumanist Party condemns any hostile discrimination or legal restrictions
on the basis of national origin, skin color, birthplace, ancestry,

(04:34):
gender identity, or any manner of circumstantial attribute tied to
a person's lineage or accident of birth. Furthermore, in section
six of the US Transhumanist Party Platform, the Transhumanist Party
upholds morphological freedom, the right to do with one's physical
attributes or intelligence whatever one wants, as long as it

(04:55):
does not directly harm others. And Furthermore, Section forty nine
of the USTP platform also specifically supports the rights of
transgender individuals and other individual choices of transformation. It reads
as follows. The United States Transhumanist Party supports efforts to
increase autonomy of individuals to decide over their own bodies,

(05:18):
and holds that individuals should have the legal right to
undertake procedures including gender reassignment, hysterectomies, the sectomies, technological augmentation,
cosmetic alterations, genetic enhancements, and physical supplementation at or after
the age of eighteen years. So that's a very important
qualifier there, as long as this does not create health

(05:40):
hazards or threats to other individuals. So I think it's
very clear where we stand. I wish more people learned
about transhumanism and read our platform, and then some of
these misconceptions that I alluded to would not be so prominent,
but I'm glad that we have Scarlett here to help

(06:03):
clear the record additionally and explain some of this connection
that I kind of previewed. So Scarlet welcome. We're pleased
to have you join us, and please proceed with your presentation.

Speaker 2 (06:20):
Yes, sir, thank you so much. And first of all,
I just want to say thanks to everyone for inviting
me here. I Tagnati and Art and nice to meet
you Dan, And yeah, I'm Scarlett Zynerken. I run the
server which I called Transformation ASQ. I'm not using it
using the name to make money or anything. I found
there was some business that uses the name as well,
but h yeah, I'm a trains ID activist. I know

(06:44):
that there are some identities under the trains I DA
umbrella that are they're considered harmful and may Violet couds
in and I don't support those, but I just don't
want to bring the light this new movement called trains
I D, which I started about a year ago or so.
When I created this a server a sort of based
on the same idea of just like bringing different peoples

(07:06):
together of like similar experiences, though not exactly the same
like transgender. You know, people want to change their race
or species and stuff. But I believe that in the
end that we're going to be stronger together in the future,
rather than like tokenizing ourselves to appeal to the larger society.
And so I guess without further ado and start with

(07:26):
my disclaimer. So I did not endorse any form of
harmful paraphilias, practices and delusions off and associated with the
transit D label or ally with self described transla D
under red queer groups who do so, and emphasized personal autonomy,
bioethics and consent is core principles in both current and
theoretical forms of transformation.

Speaker 3 (07:45):
Okay, And so for.

Speaker 2 (07:46):
Broad overview of trans identity, you can see it's the
website that I as that uphold from.

Speaker 3 (07:52):
So it's a fairly new term.

Speaker 2 (07:54):
I'm not sure exactly who coined it all those website
that does have some screenshots of an email showing the
supposed first use. But it's basically like an umbrella term
to describe to describe like something moving from one state
to another, and I could I mean pretty much almost anything.
And it covers a lot of topics that it isn't

(08:17):
really currently possible.

Speaker 3 (08:18):
It was current technology.

Speaker 2 (08:20):
And so I personally hold the belief that everyone has
what I like to call two faces. You know, there's
one that's that's external in the world sees that defines
our lived experience, and then there's what's earned internal defined
by your self perception and desires, or what I would
like to call the face of the soul or just
your true identity. And I believe that the goal of

(08:43):
every trans person you know, whether that be you know, transgender,
trans race, or alter human, is to align their lived
experience with the shape of their soul. So it doesn't
just have to be a physical transformation either. It can
be it could be mental. It's like that sometimes when
people are transgender and they go on different hormones, they
experience different emotions because of the result of the hormones.

(09:05):
And there's other ways that that could be, you know,
explored in the future on and see. Yeah, any anything
that you could think of as it relates from one
state to another could be considered trans id to an extent.

Speaker 3 (09:18):
But this isn't to.

Speaker 2 (09:19):
Say that you know, someone who like wants to lose
weight and therefore they have to identify as trans weight
and it's like you don't have to it's it's more
like a way which we use language to describe how
our identity and experiences changed or how we want it
to be changed.

Speaker 3 (09:36):
And so here's the next slide.

Speaker 2 (09:39):
And so the challenges, so the challenges related to trans
are DA are mostly beyond our current you know, our
societal focus. You know, the world is focused on things
like you know, trans people being able to use bathrooms
and whether they can join the military or playing sports
and stuff. But we really are just in the beginning

(10:00):
of all of this, and that there's going to be
some major changes in the future as it relates to
how technology and especially AI, you know, as we move
into artificial general intelligence and eventually superintelligence, will make it
possible to explore different our identities which weren't possible before.
And it's very likely that it is as fast as

(10:20):
AI accelerates in the growth, it is causing changes that
humanity may not be ready for. It's like, I mean,
religion has been stuck in the past for thousands of
years and they're still executing people for things like apostasy.
So we're gonna have We're so as much as even
just transgender people are discriminated against in society. We're going
to need an extra stronger big brother to keep up with,

(10:44):
you know, protecting the anthropomorphic cat girls in Afghanistan for example.
And so eventually I believe that society will catch up,
you know, as it always does, you know for other groups.
So here are the main trans identities as I've laid out.
You know, you would consider a transgender trains, race, and
ultra humanity to be like what i'd call the big three.

(11:05):
And someone can also have multiple trans IDs and they
could be transgender, trans racing, alter human like. Of course,
that only works for anthropomorphic like if you're a mermaid,
if you want to be a mermaid, then a transgender
mermaid you can be transgender. And let's say your race,
if you want to change your your racial appearance to
firm one race to another, you know, and h and

(11:25):
also being on ourself. So it only works with some things,
but there's there's some overlap there. And just to quickly
go over the different identities, you have theorians, which are
no non human animals such as cats, dogs, wolves, et cetera.
You know, fiction can often asked to do with intellectual property,
you know, such as like a fictional species and characters

(11:47):
that use that you knowl like from Star Trek or
something other can identify as other than or non human,
but a bit broader than theorians, and they can be
mythical like dragons, vampires, mermaids and angels, demons, et cetera,
and trained species. Of course, it's more specifically like the
literal biological transformation that not just having to do with

(12:10):
an ultra human identity in a spiritual way, but like
you literally want to change your bi logical makeup throopomorphic.
That means like and thropomorphic is a mix of vice
human and animal features, like if I want to have
cat ears or a cute little tailor our scales, and like,
it's like mixed to human and an animal. You're are

(12:31):
other species and cyborgs that we all know what cyborgs
are will probably hopefully we'll all be side works at
some point. You know, it's nanotech and the immortal and
you're indestructible and all that.

Speaker 3 (12:42):
Other heart.

Speaker 2 (12:43):
So this is other heart is when you get into
the more spiritual stuff, not really relayd with the transhumanism.
It's just it falls under it's a falls under the
alterra human umbrella other link. Other link is like it's
basically the same thing as like other can or fiction can,
but like specifically, like oh, someone believes that they have

(13:04):
total control over their feelings about their identity.

Speaker 3 (13:07):
It's like it's not like.

Speaker 2 (13:10):
Like I just decided to transition, you know, because I
just wanted to so, or for whatever reason other than
I just want to be a woman, kind of like transmaxers,
you know, I call themselves, and and you have shifting,
which is like like when you go into alter human
mode and it's like you are more in tune with

(13:30):
your theory or other identity and systems. Systems isn't like
totally like an alter human identity on its own, but
they're like people who experience dissociative identity disorder, and they're
often involved with the community, and they have their own
terms as well, like fictive instead of fiction can. And
they often get away with, you know, assuming the identity

(13:54):
of a literal person, such as a person in history,
because you're ended to like to fill that void where
where they didn't have an identity you know before, so
they can identify as like Abraham Lincoln even though they
know they're not really Abraham Lincoln. Okay, so quickly go
over that. The other transads, so try I'll just go

(14:16):
over these quickly. So transage means to identify within different
age group. And I see most people here want to
reverse age, want to be you know, forever young, no
young and beautiful at twenty, like the equivalent of a
twenty five year old.

Speaker 3 (14:29):
But of course we'll have to set rules.

Speaker 2 (14:31):
So that people don't violate age if you consent, like
someone doesn't go back to like the body of a
five year old.

Speaker 3 (14:37):
And transable your means to identify with the.

Speaker 2 (14:40):
Different set of abilities, like I support improving or gaining
new abilities, but not like becoming disabled such as going
blind or death intentionally, although it is possible that like
we could augment our abilities such as you know, like
you know, wilding without a mask by limiting our sensitivity
to light temporarily or tightening it where exposed.

Speaker 3 (15:00):
Too much light.

Speaker 2 (15:02):
Trans Orientation is when you want to change your sexual
orientation by you know, by force or possibly gender identally
and glad to be careful, the things such as religious
shame aren't used as raisons to change it, like internalized self.
Fate also generally oppose it because I think that people
you know, should be more focused on accepting their feelings

(15:26):
and altering our bodies to fit the mind, rather than
trying to alter the mind to fit the body. And
trans character is like when you'd want to be a
specific character. Well, of course, you know, you would be
only your version of the character, like you might become
a version of hatsname Mikou, but that's it. It Transplural
is like that someone wants to be a system.

Speaker 1 (15:48):
You know.

Speaker 2 (15:48):
I don't really support this either, but like maybe someday
a group of friends could consent to having their their
their consciousnesses, you know, all put in the same mind,
or maybe a system could separate into different bodies since
of merging.

Speaker 3 (16:00):
But I don't know.

Speaker 2 (16:02):
I guess like way in the future and trains experiences
very self explanatory, want different experiences, trains body, you know,
you want a different body tape now you want to
be thinner, fatter, trans mentality the self explained to explanatory
as well, although I said up post trans orientation. But
there are ways we could alter you know, the mind

(16:23):
and the future for more productive things such as increasing
or intelligence, confidence and social skills. And there's also I
had to delete it, but trains voice does another one,
like if you want a different voice, I'm using a
voice changer, and I think it would be pretty cool
if this is my real voice, but.

Speaker 3 (16:41):
That's what it is.

Speaker 2 (16:42):
And trains fashion is like, I don't know, you have
a bent fashion sense, so you wish it was better
he which you had a different fashion sense, sorry at
different set of clothes, and so transition. So I'm want
to start off by saying this, not all trains well,
I mean, not all transgender people are transsexual, but I

(17:04):
would say that most transactuals are transgender, and also not
all genders imply surgery, but can be associated with things
such as, you know, changes in the clothing, appearance, and personality.
And we do have a longer and more documented history
of gender people compared to others, but it always wasn't

(17:25):
so public, Like back in the nineteen fifties there were
but a few dozen trans people in America, and now
the community is in the millions, with a not so
small portion of them taking steps to transition medically. And
while things such as ultra humanity and transracialism may be
considered more extreme, like transgender people are currently the most

(17:47):
under attack legally and socially speaking, and we have to
push back against things like bathroom bills and military bands,
as well as attacks unequal opportunity in housing and employment,
among other things. And I believe the transgender acceptance still
has a long way to go and gender or firm
and care as well, because biology, you know, and anatomy

(18:07):
is complicated. I think that being able being able to
alter the skeleton completely would be a great improvements, like
being able to alter the hands and shoulders and things
like beyond you know, facial feminization or rasculinization we can
currently do, and we'll have newer surgeries, uh such as
you know, we're working on vocal feminizations and also working

(18:31):
on stem cell engineering and bioprinting to replicate the functions
I guess assist person would have.

Speaker 3 (18:40):
So yeah and yeah, yes.

Speaker 2 (18:42):
The age of consent is also important with as it
relates to transgender not eight dinities, because a minor cannot
consent to major H demeters ALC surgeries stuff. And I
think theoretically it could be possible, like if we have
shape shifting technology in the future that was fully safe

(19:03):
and revers a ball for a minor to like I
guess explore their transidentity young age like safely but that's
that's not gonna be for a long time. And puberty
blockers that's on. Oh can of worms anyway? Trans race
so oh and also also wanted to add there are

(19:23):
tons of resources for trans and trans questioning people across
the internet. So one of my favorites is the Genderness
for You Bible and the Ultimate Research Document, which is.

Speaker 3 (19:33):
Made by someone named Vosh.

Speaker 2 (19:34):
I guess before or like Noah's supported by a guy
named Vosh, And I'm also working on a thesis myself,
and I have resources for transgender people on my server
as well. So for trans race, you know, sometimes referred
to as our CTA, it may not be the most
biologically or ethically complex, but it is the most divisive,

(19:56):
mainly because race is sensitive and there has been a
lot of racism and history. So legally speaking, you know,
I see no reason why someone would make laws against
someone altering their appearance to where they could be seen
as trying to pass as another race. It's just it's
just really arbitrary, more so than trying to change your
sex or species. Now, I have a long list of

(20:18):
coins that can make about why I support transracialism, but
I'll just try to go over the main ones for
now and hopefully we can get into the more niche
topics later during conversation. So, race is a social construct,
and social constructs mean what we want them to, and
there's no universal consensus on what races, so I see
no reason not to go with the definition that promotes

(20:39):
universal freedom and prevents the centralizing people and trains to race.
People do vocalize a will to share in the real,
lived experience of others of the race they identified with,
so they are about you know that life and racial
dysphoria may not be a medical diagnosis, but the way

(20:59):
people for their identity as it relates to their culture
and internalized beauty standards is very real. And I believe
that to undo an identity because of political correctness and
current ideas about what races what would be like erasure,
Because although there's no medical basis for you know, someone
being a Christian or a Muslim, we agree that forcing

(21:20):
someone out of a religion is wrong. I also believe
that transracialism is valid because you know, no one really
has control over of how the things they immerse into
like and the shape their cultural interests and beauty standards,
Like if we put these beautiful K pop stars in
front of our kids and they come to think, you know,

(21:40):
this is what an ideal matter woman looks like, and
they internalize that and then they want to look like
a K pop star instead of someone from the race
they were born as. Then that's not their fault because
while Americans were too busy talking about privileged and oppression,
you know, all the Koreans and Japanese were over here
making awesome music and people actually want to be like them.
So it's like, and what trans race people are doing

(22:03):
it is gaining some racial pride that their parents failed
to them still in them. And lastly, I believe that technology,
you know, will make it possible for people to pass
as there identified race in the future, and that will
cause corctent of dissonance and so forcing people to accept
them as such, you know, less we devolve into race
investigations now, I think people will be forced to accept

(22:25):
them as they identify as once they see it with.

Speaker 3 (22:28):
Their own eyes.

Speaker 2 (22:29):
And there aren't a whole lot of resources about transracialism,
but I did finish my thesis on it as well
as right a GPT and the chat, GPT plugins and
and alside a ton of resources and thenfo about it
as well, like my fact, my feet frequently asked questions
on my discord server. Okay, so have some men who
have say for later, we can go off these news topics.

(22:51):
That's what we can talk about that later. But a
second ultra humanity so so so right now is where
things start to get a little complicated. So alter humanity
is an large umbrella, and trans identity, of course is
a larger one. But let me just say that any

(23:11):
identity like other than or non human makes for a
lot of variation and so a lot of There's a
lot of spiritual elements to alter humanity as well, such
as reincarnation, alternate universes, et cetera. But the big thing,
of course I'm here to talk about are the real
impacts of biological transformations.

Speaker 1 (23:31):
So.

Speaker 3 (23:33):
Cesair.

Speaker 2 (23:36):
The big problem with a lot of alter humans and
especially you know, theory and identities is that it may
risk dehumanization in different ways, like if someone words literally
become a lesser animal, like you know, without additional modification
to ensure intelligence and ability to communicate turn back, it
would sort of be like a form of extended suicide,

(23:57):
like becoming a normal cat or dog of similar intelligence,
you wouldn't have the means to communicate a desire.

Speaker 3 (24:04):
To change back.

Speaker 2 (24:05):
Now, theoretically, if you had something like the super dog
and Rick and Morty that was put in some soup
which gave him super intelligence and then created a superdog army,
you all the colonized another planet then, and theoretically that
might work, like you'll have some real life theorians who
can live comfortably, you know, without body dysphory yet but
also not completely lose their agency and also have a

(24:27):
capacity to change back or continue shape shifting or something.
Now that being said, now, I do believe in a
future where alter humans are able to live authentically with
you know, certain restrictions for safety. I have yet to
write my thesis for alter humanity, but I do want
to write one at some point, like in the their future,
after I finished my one for transgender identities. Now, the

(24:52):
first up for practical future species I believe will mostly
be mostly be anthropomorphic, and it'll probably be constrained to
an earthly atmosphere for a long time, especially above water,
without major evolutionary changes to their bodies and which I'll
get into with my next slides. And mammals especially of

(25:13):
all characteristics you know, which could make anthropomorphinism somewhat feasible
in the next century, I'll leave it. We'll have things
like horns made from keratin, tails which extend from the spine,
and of course fur, it's just hair that covers the body,
so you could have skin more scaly in certain spots
like you see hereiods that you have elaborate designs. They're

(25:36):
my character from Final Fantasy, that's my friend in the gang.
And of course to make the perfect esthetical may get complicated.
But the new body parts, you know, can't be pointing
random directions like deformed horns. Sometimes you see videos of
animals with horns that like grow back and go up
into their skull, and it's that happens in the wild

(25:57):
sometimes and it kills animals and it's really sad. But
so we integrate new animal parts into our system and
make it complicated. But I do think it will likely
be possible this century, and it'll unlock all sort of
new sensory experiences and ways to express our emotions, such
as you know, having control of a tailor ears that
I'll think it can wiggle, you know, and stuff like that.

(26:20):
So flying may prove to be more difficult, but perhaps
it could be done with some adjustents, and you know,
gliding would definitely be easier. Now, okay, for the next life.

Speaker 3 (26:34):
The sea.

Speaker 2 (26:35):
Now, the crossover from land to sea is definitely going
to require a rework of our biology.

Speaker 3 (26:41):
So we evolve for billions.

Speaker 2 (26:43):
Of years alongside other mammals to live on land, so
almost every aspect of our biology will have to be
altered to be suitable for the ocean. Now, dolphins do
get away with having lungs while being bound to water,
but we certainly won't be interested in sleeping with our
heads above the surface or you know, resurfacing fifteen minutes
for oxygen.

Speaker 3 (27:01):
No, well, we'll have to.

Speaker 2 (27:02):
We'll want to stick around our underwater cities and homes
for extended perions because I mean, as humans, we do
like our comfort and consistency. Uh, it will have will
have three D travel. That means that vertical communities will
become possible. And if there's one thing we can be
sure of, Mrfolk in the future is that we won't
look like this, But we won't look like this, But

(27:24):
we won't be ugly either. As people made for the ocean,
our bodies will be need to be sleek and slender,
and there won't there won't be a change in and consistently,
there won't be a change in skin tone between the
tail and the body. Yes, this is a a generated
aunt care that it'll be a bit very consistent like tone.

(27:45):
And our heads will probably be flatter with on the
rear rather than bean shaped, you know, bean shaped is
like curls around the back like that adin or blend
with the neck and shoulders to be sleeker more uh
you know, hydrodynamic, but it won't be deformed looking. And
if we have some kind of hair for aesthetics, it'll
probably be different than normal hairs, like, but we'll have

(28:07):
the freedom to choose the most ideal place for our gills,
and we might even have micro gills that are like
uh that like don't subtract from the appearance as well
as well as protected and you're really self regulating. I
imagine that we'll also be part cyborg as some kind
of nanotech maintains you know, our appearance and functionality, like
regulating our body temperature so that we don't have to

(28:29):
live with a tent of blubber like manatees or you know,
giving us far greater speed and strength than we otherwise,
you know, would have to make life enjoyable. Now, as
far as our lived experience, that living underwater means living
with the laws of physics in water, well, just as
we follow the loss of physics above land. So things
such as paper will be useless. You know, materials mold

(28:51):
and decay, a warp and dissolve faster. You know, liquids
run water, metals corrode and rust. You know, no fire
underwater that will have difficulty. We will definitely be able
to cook by boiling, and clothes will have to be
made carefully, and most materials except plastic you roade quickly,
and electricity and technology as well definitely will need to

(29:13):
be insulated. Uh. And sound doesn't travel the same neither,
so we'll have to communicate with clicks or sonar. And
this leads me to believe that like air, controlled bubbles
well for various purposes will be commonplace in birth folk
society right to uh, as we bring luxuries from the
land to the sea, and we'll want to maintain things biotech.

(29:37):
Biotech may have lots of potential for underwater life, and
there are marine organisms and coral which could be engineered
and adapted for many purposes. That is, he for homes, lighting, clothing, cleaning, hygiene, medicine,
and so on. And I truly believe that it will
feel as if your entire world is alive but also
full of technology and convenience. And by this time will

(30:00):
probably be past super artificial superintelligence. And you know, most
of the labor required for this reality offset to robotics
and automation. And in case I didn't already say it,
the ocean calls us so at about going into space
in the future. Yeah, there's really no limit to you know,

(30:22):
the sky isn't the limit here, right. The population growth
is unknown and will likely be limited to our local
galaxy group consisting of the Milky Way and some among others,
you know, due to the laws of physics and the
fact that galaxy groups are moving apart faster than lights,
so we'll never reach another galaxy group. But so we'll

(30:42):
probably peak at a type three civilization, which is what
Star Wars is actually and there's yeah, there's almost no
limit to the things we could evolve into. And as
we spread across space and adapt to different environments. You know,
we could become some kind of space Mrphulk and live
in the acidicos of Titan and so on, and becoming

(31:03):
full cyborgs may be necessary if you know playing it
or location is not suitable for organic life, but suitable
enough for a synthetic body well protected from the elements,
and deep hibernation will be necessary for travel, of course,
if you know across light years of travel. You know,
if if we even tried to go out so far,

(31:25):
and uh, I'm not sure if I've left this page
hoping long enough, X give you a second, and yeah,
I got this impage from.

Speaker 3 (31:33):
A source, and yeah, there's there's the rest of altra humanity.
Not going to go in the explanation of all the
different identities, but.

Speaker 2 (31:48):
In case I didn't say it trains rights baby, And yeah,
that's just about concludes my uh presentation.

Speaker 1 (31:56):
Yes, well, thank you very much, Scarlet. This is quite
fascinating and I'll leave up the slide on alter humanity
for a moment. And if people have any questions about
these terms, please post them in the chat. We might
have time to delve into them. But I think this

(32:21):
is quite fascinating because it's an illustration of a future
that is coming. In some respects, it is in progress already.
For instance, with regard to the cyborg identity, there are
cyborgs alive today. For instance, Neil Harbison has an antenna

(32:44):
that was surgically implanted into his forehead that enables him
to hear colors because he was born color blind. There
are famous cyborgs like Steve Mann, who was able to
implants to achieve a kind of telekinesis. Essentially his wife

(33:07):
was on one continent and he was on another, and
he was able to relate a thought to her using
these implants. And there are other notable examples. Of course,
people with prosthetics. Functional prosthetics especially can be considered cyborgs.
There are runners with prosthetic feet now who can in

(33:30):
some circumstances run faster than unaugmented runners. So all of
that is quite fascinating, and I would say it's important
for us to think about what a future with that
kind of diversity looks like, because for people who, let's say,

(33:53):
have a problem with the amount of diversity that exists today,
they haven't seen anything yet, and especially with technological applications, Yes,
as you pointed out, people could have gills, people could
have echolocation capabilities like whales do or like bats do.

(34:14):
To some extent, certain bodily transformations will become advantageous if
people have colonies on other planets with greater or lesser gravity,
and there will be questions about, well, does someone want
to get these modifications if they want to live on Mars,
or if they want to live on Titan, or would

(34:37):
they rather say, preserve their Earth body and have some
sorts of temporary adjustments that they have to go through
in order to be able to make it on those
other worlds if they visit, And then there would be
the question of alterability. So if you have a body
modification that's good for one environment be suboptimal for another,

(35:02):
how reversible do you want to make it? That kind
of way of thinking will be increasingly common as technologies
advance and as the reach of humanity expands. But I
wanted to ask you perhaps a more fundamental question. So

(35:23):
we have all of these identities, and I wanted to
ask you, what do you think is that the core
of the identity of an individual. The reason why I
say this is because let's say you have a person
who has undergone a particular transformation, and a familiar example

(35:48):
might be a transgender person. But in a very key sense,
that person is still the same individual before and after
the transformation, in the sense of what I call innis,
which is a person's own vantage point upon the world.
So just because a person has had, say, gender reassignment surgery,

(36:13):
doesn't mean their memories of the past are wiped out.
Doesn't mean that their awareness of the world, whatever they
took out of their lives from the past, are just
completely obliterated. It's right, the same person who has undergone
a change. It could be a significant change, but that
individual has been preserved, and that's what I call innis,

(36:37):
which persists through these transformations. But it seems that identity
as you described it is different from ius in the
sense that ius is very basic. It's the fact that
I exist and have subjective awareness of the world through
my vantage point rather than through your or art Ramon's

(37:00):
vantage point. But it seems this concept of identity in
the way that you've described it is a bit more
layered than that. It's a bit less basic, there's more
involved in it. So I'm curious what you think of
that I appreciate it. Yes, what is the identity of
a person that would stay constant through these transformations?

Speaker 2 (37:27):
Well, I believe that identity isn't always like perfectly you know, constant.
I believe that identity is fundamentally fluid for the most part.
It's it's more concrete to some people at less than others.
Like when you're a teenager and you're experiencing coremdal changes,
your identity can change a lot.

Speaker 3 (37:46):
You go through phases and.

Speaker 2 (37:50):
But and technology as well, like once we've reached the
point where you know, nanotech allows us to shape shift
more than we are currently able to. Uh. You know,
I believe it's possible that our internal like self perception
and our brain chemistry, uh, in combination with our lived
experience and interests, you know, causes our internal identity to change,

(38:12):
sometimes faster than technology can uh uh uh facilitate those
changes like uh like, which is why for gender identity
even today, we like uh you know, we set laws
against the minors like go undergoing surgeries before they reach
a certain age because their identity hasn't i solidified to
a point or they can consent to those procedures. And similarly,

(38:36):
you know as the as soon as we figure out
how fast technology, Uh, what's the peak of which technology
will allow us to, you know, change our identity, like
a thousand years in the future. Like if if I
need nanotech to transform into a mermaid, will that still
take like due to the laws of physics, like a

(38:56):
couple of months. Therefore, I need to give some thought
at least, you know, for a while before I train
change into a mermaid, because it'll at least take a
couple of months due to you know, the laws of
physics and safety rate reasons.

Speaker 1 (39:09):
You know.

Speaker 2 (39:10):
So that's what I think we'll know we have people
will need to be informed about reality of physical transformations.

Speaker 1 (39:19):
No, yes, so it's interesting.

Speaker 3 (39:23):
Does that answer the question?

Speaker 1 (39:25):
Yes? I think so. I think so, And I think
the insight here is ideally is stable, so each person
has the same iess that hopefully doesn't get interrupted or rased.
But identity can evolve over time. It can transform as well.

(39:51):
And then there's a question of what are viable physical
transformations given the state of technological advancement, So it could
be more feasible in the future to achieve certain transformations
than it is today. While some transformations only remain aspirational.

(40:13):
And I was thinking of the comment you made about
transage identities, and you mentioned that most transhumanists, the vast majority,
would like to become biologically younger at least to have
that off. Yet at the same time, currently I can't

(40:34):
say right now that I'm eighteen years old or that
I identify as being eighteen, even though there is this
concept it's possible to be biologically eighteen if you apply
the correct technological transformations. We just don't have them yet.

Speaker 2 (40:52):
So this is so there's in the trans age I
guess Steer, you have two groups of people. The one
that believes in chronological age reversal, which is, you know,
theoretically impossible because if I'm if I'm eighteen.

Speaker 3 (41:13):
Years old, then I'm eighteen years old.

Speaker 2 (41:15):
But if I am actually fifty years old in the
body of someone who has the equivalent of an eighteen
year old, that I'm still fifty years old, Like you
can't reverse time. And there's there's been a delesion in
some the transage community. But I would say that the
focus should be more on setting standards and you know,

(41:38):
ensuring reason, you know, when we.

Speaker 3 (41:42):
Approach it.

Speaker 1 (41:43):
Yes, I agree with you, so I think chronological age
is essentially immutable in the sense that you've been alive
for as long as you've been alive, that's just a
fact of existence. But biological age age could be and
hopefully will be reversible, and so somebody who is, say,

(42:09):
chronologically fifty, could hopefully become biologically eighteen at some point
in the future. It's interesting too, because I recently presented
on leev the game, the computer game on longevity Escape
Velocity that I am you'reheading the development of, and that

(42:30):
game specifically has for your character parameters of chronological age
and biological age, and the chronological age just increases with
each turn of the game, which is a year, and
biological age can be reversed. Now, what is interesting in
this game is the biological age can go below eighteen.

(42:52):
But what does that mean. It doesn't mean that the
person becomes a child or d grows in some way.
It means that the person cells become younger than a
typical eighteen year old cells today. So hypothetically, you could
be an adult in the future, but your cells could
be as youthful, which means us free of damage as

(43:16):
the cells of a child or an infant. And you
would still have your life, and yes, go ahead.

Speaker 2 (43:24):
And I was just talking with my sister about about
the still topic yesterday. There's like, you remember the Twilight
series when you had Edward is in high school is
like this fake seventeen year old but he's hundreds of
years old. And there's lots of vampire series where the
future around an actual teenage girl and this this ancient

(43:45):
man who's just in a body, and they create this
sort of sometimes a love triangles and like love stories
that would never work in the real world because they
violate all kinds of get synth ethics.

Speaker 1 (43:59):
You know, yes, and well, in fiction, of course there
is more latitude to explore this. I think actually a
lot of the ideas that you discussed have some roots
in science fiction as well. So for decades, science fiction

(44:22):
authors have explored questions like what would it look like
if a human society were to create an underwater settlement
or a settlement in space, and especially over the course
of generations, how would the populations diverge? So there have
been a lot of science fiction novels discussing, for instance,

(44:46):
spacer lineages.

Speaker 2 (44:48):
Let's say, yeah, I would to talk about cities underwater yes.

Speaker 1 (44:53):
Please do, please spend on the underwater cities.

Speaker 3 (44:57):
That's fascinating.

Speaker 2 (44:58):
I think that one thing I'm actually worried about is
that we're going to build a crap ton of air
bubbles and like underwater like and we're going to colonize
the ocean as normal humans and just destroy the ocean
before we actually evolve into Mrfolk. And instead of having
our beautiful, like natural biotech cities, we're going to have

(45:18):
like jiant glass domes that take up a bunch of
space and energy, so that just normal looking, you know,
people will add the ocean and colonize without actually having
diversity and experiences of life.

Speaker 3 (45:35):
Have you thought about that, Well.

Speaker 1 (45:36):
It's interesting to consider because for the first ocean settlements,
you're going to need to somehow, let's say, separate them
from the external ocean environment. Because I would presume that
the first humans who colonize the oceans aren't going to
have these adaptations. Yet these adaptations will come up.

Speaker 3 (46:00):
Suppose we'll have a transition period.

Speaker 1 (46:02):
Right and these transition periods will raise questions of their own. Indeed,
I think right now one of the reasons why let's
say the transgender questions are politically fraught is that a
lot of people don't really understand how to deal with

(46:26):
the transitional moment that our society is in. As you mentioned,
there weren't a whole lot of transgender people, or at
least openly transgender people, let's say eighty.

Speaker 3 (46:39):
And there wasn't a lot of gender firm and care
back in the fifties.

Speaker 1 (46:43):
Right, And there are more possibilities now for people to
actually have some degree of transformation, whether that be through
let's say medical procedures or even and through how they
present themselves. And a good example is, as people have

(47:06):
pointed out in the chat, you are using a voice changer.
But that voice changer is very plausible right now, So
that wouldn't have happened ten years ago. That technology just
wasn't there. So I think right as time progresses, As

(47:26):
technology progresses, people are going to have more options as
to how to present themselves. And it may even be
a question of degree, Like we currently choose to wear clothing,
or at least I hope we do, and we can
choose different styles of clothing. You even mentioned the trans

(47:48):
fashion idea, so that might even be a person who
may not have access to certain types of clothing or
certain fashions of clothing, but wish that they did, and
wish that they could.

Speaker 3 (48:03):
Oh can I just say something yes please?

Speaker 2 (48:07):
So, uh, the biggest grape I have with the Republican Party, like, uh,
well it isn't necessarily just that if they're discriminating against
us so much, but they want to define woman like
as like made and woman as social constructs, but like
under the guise of being biologically driven. Like they say
that a man and woman is a male or female
person that is assigned that assigned male or female at birth.

(48:30):
So this, you know, being born is uh, you know,
it's a social act. It's like, so then you have
to define what a male and female is. It's someone
who is bored. Male and female. Oh well that's kind
of circular. So if someone has to become male and female,
then you always say that.

Speaker 1 (48:45):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (48:45):
They say that a male produces the small gamebeat and
females produced the large game meats. So if science makes
it possible for trans people to they know, through bioprinting,
for trans people to like fully transition like myologically more
than we can now, then they're already moving the goalpost
to say, oh, you have to have been born that

(49:06):
way and that's a social construct, but just a conservative one.
And that's why I think that these transhumanists need to
push back to make sure that like, oh, if they're
going to be using terms like biological reality, then you
know that we should be sticking with that. And personally,
although I do emphasize, you know, internal identity is most important,
I would say that, uh, the like a transman a

(49:27):
woman is is someone whose internal identity aligns with that biological.

Speaker 3 (49:32):
Sex, not necessarily that sex it self.

Speaker 2 (49:34):
Even though like more progressive like people want to know
abolish gender say that abandon one can be anything.

Speaker 3 (49:40):
But that's sir, I'm going off track a little bit.

Speaker 1 (49:45):
Yes, I think, but that's it, and I appreciate those comments.
I think it is important from the standpoint of respecting
individual autonomy to not abolish ideas like but to allow
people to align with genders that they choose to align with.

(50:08):
So I am definitely not the kind of person who
would say no, erase all of this, and I'm also
the kind of person.

Speaker 3 (50:16):
Who would come on the side of more genders.

Speaker 1 (50:18):
Right. I'm the kind of person who would say, if
people want to have a very traditional gender identity, they
should have the right to do that, and I think
quite possibly ninety percent of people will select that, and
that's fine, but we need the ability.

Speaker 3 (50:35):
I just saw something thing, Yes, go ahead.

Speaker 2 (50:41):
I just saw someone in the comments say that a
full transition means to change your chromosomes. I don't actually
believe that, because chromosomes are like blueprints for the body,
and the chromosomes is what you know, is why your
body grows into the sex.

Speaker 3 (50:56):
It does you know from birth. But if you change every.

Speaker 2 (50:58):
Other biological aspect your body, than you are functionally the
other sex, even if your chromosomes are different. So it's
not necessarily not unnecessary.

Speaker 1 (51:08):
Yes, And that would be an interesting question, especially to
address as genetic engineering becomes more practicable and applicable to
a wider variety of transformations. So in the future, some
people may choose to change their chromosomes, and that is

(51:30):
also on that spectrum of transformation. And of course another question.

Speaker 3 (51:36):
Will be in the future, Oh, it becomes possible for sure, right,
and then in.

Speaker 1 (51:41):
The future, how reversible will these transformations be. So, for instance,
you mentioned one of the reasons for the importance of
the age of consent and having this let's say, minimum
age at which many of these transfers are let's say

(52:02):
conceivable or permissible is because they are very consequential, especially today.
So if they become less consequential in the future, how
is that going to change? So let me give you
an example. Right now, somebody could play as a computer
game character who is different from oneself, whatever that may be.

(52:23):
One can play as a Ward Yes Yes, and your
profile picture it seems to be from Final Fantasy, So
that's another example.

Speaker 3 (52:35):
So since she's called an ra Yes, so.

Speaker 1 (52:42):
It's generally seen as harmless for somebody to play as
a computer game character who doesn't reflect one's own identity
because it's not really even considered self transformation. It's more
like role play or a kind of participatory fiction, so

(53:03):
you can read fiction about other characters. There are even
transitional forms of fiction, like there are books where you
can make choices, and these are even older. These existed
decades before computer games existed, where you could make choices
for your character and if you make a particular choice,
you turn to page fifty. If you make another choice,

(53:26):
you turn to page sixty five and you figure out
what happened. And then there were early computer games that
were based on text where you could input the choices
for your character.

Speaker 3 (53:36):
Can hindle that? Yes, go ahead?

Speaker 2 (53:40):
So yeah, I started to think before, like, after I
had been role playing my character in the game a while,
I start having thoughts about like if I actually had
these features like the tail and the horns on the
side of my head. I was thinking like, oh, when
I try to sleep, I'm not going to be able
to sleep on my site. I'm going to have to
sleep on my back. It's siqueus they crowlerund around the
side and uh yeah, and also possibly turn my body

(54:04):
a certain way of gonna sleep, and all have to
have different accommodations in the real world, Like I'm not
gonna be able to wear ear plugs. It's like because
the horns themselves, you know, are used to uh to
sense sounds. So there's there's different not gonna be able
to wear the same kind of ppe And so the
world as the world changes, uh and new and throw

(54:24):
I throw upomorphic and other I didn'ty start emerging in
society that there's gonna be all kinds of neat products
and all kinds of new ways that that that they're
going to have to adjust to the world and uh.
But in the meantime, it's like before we can consent
to I mean, before we uh, we had to have
that kind of stop. It's like we were we all

(54:45):
playing in games and uh, we're figuring that stuff out
like in the books, as you were.

Speaker 1 (54:51):
Saying, right, right, And I think to some extent, books,
computer games, these kinds of fictional environments. It's they're more
innocuous because the consequences of doing something, implementing something, they're

(55:12):
clearly reversible, at least one would hope that they are.
Some people become computer game addicts, but most people don't,
and that gives people the ability to explore these questions
and a kind of safe or tentative environment. And in

(55:32):
the future, the transformations could be a lot more consequential,
like genetic engineering, like these physical changes, so the character
and your avatar could potentially exist in the future. And
then yes, maybe there would be an entire industry of
let's say, three D printing accessories for that kind of morphology,

(55:56):
and there will be markets for that, will be business considerations,
somebody will try to make a living doing it. There
could be a let's say, distinct approaches to safety depending
on what a character's morphology is so all of these
questions they open up fascinating possibilities that I think we

(56:21):
might not even have the complete vantage point to explore,
because often they emerge from other developments. It's like with
generative AI. So if five years ago I were to
try to have a conversation on generative AI, and I
actually wrote a paper on artificial intelligence and music in

(56:44):
twenty nineteen, that paper was not as far reaching as
what is routinely possible today, though, So I kind of
tried to get at that possibility of creating music through
AI systems, and I was fascinated with earlier, more algorithmic
approaches like Mozart's musical Dice Game as an example. But

(57:10):
the possibilities that are open today, and the kinds of
questions we can ask, in the kinds of combinations that
we can pursue and implement fairly and expensively, are much
vaster and more multifaceted. So Daniel Tweed says, interestingly enough,

(57:31):
greater creation is wondrously unfinished. Michael Lesine writes he would
suggest hair morphology. He would love to have hair for
even a little while, Like cloud Strife from Final Fantasy, seven.
He loves that character. Well, it's interesting because Michael, I
had a friend, an individual with whom I go on

(57:56):
trail runs on occasion, and he and I talked about
trans humanism after the trail run over dinner, and he said,
essentially he thinks that transhumanism is underway. He mentioned he
had a friend who was bald who has now regained
the ability to grow hair, and he uses, you know,

(58:19):
some combination of approaches. But yes, go ahead, Scarlett.

Speaker 2 (58:24):
So one thing that the final fantasy is definitely got
down and anibe is the good hair and they definitely
know the styles easy soa and Kingdom hearts with it.
The spikes go in all directions. He definitely take inspiration
from it.

Speaker 1 (58:42):
Yes, and I think again, fiction can inspire reality. There
are approaches today that have varying degrees of effectiveness for
people to either modify their hair. Obviously people can have
different hair, but even say people who experience hair loss

(59:03):
or hair graying have more options today than they used.

Speaker 3 (59:07):
To in the past.

Speaker 1 (59:08):
And I wouldn't be surprised if in the future there
were a greater spectrum of options. Now, one caveat that
I will pose here because we've had this discussion in
prior salons as well. The color or quality of your
hair does not correlate with your longevity, So you can

(59:28):
have any color of hair, including gray hair or no hair,
and your life expectancy with well you know what expected, Yes,
go ahead, you know what.

Speaker 2 (59:39):
Melanin also affects hair color, so in melanin also affects
skin color and hair color and eye color. So being
able to alter the amount of melinin that we produce
could help us with things like dealing with the weather,
and like darker skin is suitable for hot climates, and
now people in Russia really light skin. I sometimes think

(01:00:02):
it would be cool to see somewhat of a chameleon
and UH be able to al to alter my skin
color when I desire and hair color, Like a lot
of people dye their hair and hit hair dye costs
lots of money, and I've been able to alter your
hair color, big Berga.

Speaker 3 (01:00:15):
I wish I had blonde hair. I had I had beautiful,
like long blonde hair when I was a kid. My
parents made me cut it.

Speaker 2 (01:00:20):
As I grew up a little bit, and i'd started
out was like pushed into the stupid religion. But then
I'll laughed and they uh uh and uh now no,
hopefully I'll be able to turn a blonde again one day.
And yeah, green eyes, I love green eyes if I
see my character and then the game that's uh wise wanted.
And I guess that also sort of has to do

(01:00:41):
with trend the trends race topic a little bit, because
uh but different people have different natural skin tones, and
so they're gonna having those conversations that people are changing
their skin color too much. Other they're going to be like, uh,
you know, accused of appropriation of something, which, of course,
I hope that the sensitivity around raye, you know, decreases

(01:01:02):
as you know, people heal from the wounds of history
and it becomes a topic that's no longer off limits.

Speaker 3 (01:01:09):
It could change color.

Speaker 1 (01:01:11):
Well, this I think is a good bridge into that conversation, because,
first of all, I'll note changing hair color has become
quite acceptable culturally. Of course, a predominant way for people
to do that would be to dye their hair. And
historically a lot of people have either dyed gray hair

(01:01:35):
some other color, or gone the opposite. So if you
think of the eighteenth century, for instance, a lot of
people wore powdered wigs that were intentionally gray or white.
They considered those hair colors.

Speaker 3 (01:01:50):
And infested with bugs.

Speaker 1 (01:01:52):
Well, they wore the wigs to protect against the bug infestations,
but they were okay. Even young people were with having
gray or white wigs because they associated that with wisdom.
So those esthetic choices have varied throughout the different epochs
of history. Now, in terms of skin color, it's interesting

(01:02:15):
a lot of people pursue tannic. Now I don't because
I just watched UV exposure. But yes, go ahead, I.

Speaker 2 (01:02:26):
Just watched Marie Antoinette with my family yesterday. Actually, is
it's funny you talk about those old wigs and stick of.

Speaker 1 (01:02:33):
Yes, So Marie Antoinette was actually quite young, but she
wore these tall gray or white wigs, and a lot
of women, young women of that era, did so. Now again,
in terms of skin color, there seems to be a
certain extent to which today transforming one skin color is

(01:02:56):
considered acceptable, But there are other ways in which it's
either seen as strange or considered completely off limits. Now
on the strange part of the spectrum, super fin Guy
mentions Michael Jackson and Michael Jackson also came to mind
as well, because he could be individual.

Speaker 3 (01:03:22):
I'm sorry, go ahead, Michael Jackson.

Speaker 2 (01:03:25):
I believe, hey, I believe that he had vitaligo and
he whitened the rest of his skin to sort of
blend everything out. Hopefully, in the future will develop technology
to restore people's natural melonin levels so that they can
be comfortable without having to just you know, whitewash you
if they have vill iigo. And of course hopefully we'll
have total control over a melon and sell people can

(01:03:47):
have what have appearance they want. But Michael Jackson was
definitely not trans race.

Speaker 1 (01:03:53):
And it's interesting. I don't know, of course, what went
on in his mind when he performed the many cosmetic
surgeries that he did, but I think the reason why
people generally tended to have the response to it that
they did was that the quality of those surgeries wasn't

(01:04:16):
very good. And I think a lot of people will
recognize so Michael Jackson in his youth, he was a
pop idol, essentially, and he was a pop idol for
a reason in terms of his appearance being considered to
be quite palatable to a lot of people. And yet

(01:04:37):
after he went through these surgeries, yes, he lightened his skin,
but in the process it distorted the appearance. That distorted
the esthetic features of his appearance that a lot of
people found appealing. Now some people might say, well, he's
an early example of this, but again, I think the

(01:04:58):
question of how effic pacious the transformation is of Michael
You see something, yes, please go ahead.

Speaker 2 (01:05:06):
So about so this refers to I guess phenotype, like
racial phenotype is really difficult to change a white like
a Korean person that gets a plastic surgery in Korea
can do things like, you know, the double eyelid surgery,
and they can do a number of alterations, you know,
but what if they want But if someone wants to

(01:05:26):
look at a different race, you get into things like
alterations of the entire skull, and there's the racial phenotype
that's much more difficult to change. But hopefully that will
also become easier in the future. Like well, if Michael
Jackson was trying to get plastic surgery to look as
a white person, I don't know if he was doing
it because he identified as white, I guess. I don't

(01:05:47):
think he ever said anything, but maybe he was doing
it because he wanted to look more white. In addition,
to his skin lightening. But yeah, as you said, the
technology just wasn't there, and he ended up like that
shaving as those down to like really pointed and small,
and that's why it looked wrong.

Speaker 3 (01:06:03):
You had tons of uh and they just ken't And what.

Speaker 2 (01:06:07):
Plastic surgery with you know, with nose jobs does it
these days? It just removes more tissue and he just
kept removing it and trying to fix the problems, is
creating more ones and end up not looking right. Hopefully
well as is artificial intelligence takes over surgery in the
future will have much better results with Pete.

Speaker 1 (01:06:31):
Yes, and definitely I think the poor quality of his
surgeries contributed a lot to the public perception of what
he did. I will also say there is some disagreement
in the chat about what his actual motives may have been.

(01:06:51):
Was he really transraced? I just wish we could have
asked you, because what killed him were not these surgeries
or anything else that he was thinking in this regard.
What killed him was fentanyl. And I think when we
talked about ways in which individuals pursue whatever changes in
their lives they consider worthwhile, or whatever responses to the

(01:07:17):
way their lives have turned out what is essential as safety,
and I think what he was doing with ventanyl was
clearly not safe and a lot more let's say, problematic
than anything about his surgeries. But I just wanted to
make that point. As transhumanists, we value the life of

(01:07:37):
the individual and the continuation of that life.

Speaker 3 (01:07:40):
Please go ahead.

Speaker 2 (01:07:44):
It's really when you look up further and further back
into history, it gets difficult to decipher, like how someone
would have identified had they known that there would be
communities for things such as strange gender and race and species. Mike,
you look at people like Michael Jackson this like trans
of race, like what wasn't really a thing? There may
been someone like at that point or before who actually

(01:08:04):
identified it as such, but he like if he actually
was like on the inside and wanted to be white,
we wouldn't have known, because you know, he didn't. He
wouldn't have seen anything to base that off of or
discover that with him himself. I just like, when I
was really young, I had feeling I had feelings about
you know, becoming a girl and h and which emerged

(01:08:25):
in different ways.

Speaker 1 (01:08:27):
But.

Speaker 2 (01:08:29):
Uh, but never like accepted that I wanted it to
be a girl, and I didn't hear anything about the
transgender community until many years later. And and then I
and uh, and then that's when I started fully being
able to I guess self reflect. And so when you
look farther back in history, there's people who have shown
signs like, uh, there's this old ancient guy called ash

(01:08:52):
sure bib bonapaul if like the uh the Assyrian uh
dynasty or something, who allegedly were women's clothes and cross
dressed and stuff, but enacted effeminine among others like in
ancient Rome, but they didn't call themselves strange gender. And
there's you know people, there are people in history who

(01:09:12):
grew up and identified with different cultures and aesthetics, which
could attribute it to race. But uh and uh yeah,
when people who created like anthropomorphic deities that they like
idolized after then maybe sometimes wouldn't be which could be
seen as like trans species. But they didn't have the
word for trained species. They just thought that they just

(01:09:33):
thought that minotaurs were cool and uh. And so it's
it's it gets really uh. It's really difficult, but also
somewhat interesting when we look at history and reflect and
think like what would they identify as or what what
did their identify identity change like if they were alive today,
and and and with this information you know that, yes.

Speaker 1 (01:09:56):
Well, it's definitely fascinating to consider. Again, I these individuals
were alive today, and then we could ask them. I
do sometimes wonder what would various historical figures have thought
of our current moment in history. How would their choices
their incentives have been different if they had access to

(01:10:17):
the technology that we have access to now. So definitely
a lot of fascinating conversations could be had in this regard. Now,
I'll have one more question for you on the trans
race concept, and then we'll go to our our moment
and we'll go to questions and comments from the audience.

(01:10:39):
So you mentioned that race is a social construct, and
I agree with you on that in the sense that
there's no objective set of genetic attributes or even phenotypic
attributes as such, that identify a particular race. You have
certain phenotypic attributes present in people essentially of every so

(01:11:04):
called racial group, and how these racial groups have been
defined have varied throughout history as well. On the other hand,
of course, yes, skin color is an objective attribute, yet
again not really neatly tied to race, and somebody could
have even very different skin colors. Somebody could performatively take

(01:11:29):
on certain skin colors, like say the Blue Man Group.
Nobody has an issue with what the Blue Man Group
is doing, in part because I think there is no
population of humans that has naturally blue skin, and everybody knows, oh,
it's face pained, it's reversible, hopefully it's non toxic, and
they have their own act as the Blue Man Group.

(01:11:52):
So I'm curious if in the future, perhaps a better
way to think of it wouldn't be ass race, especially
as you pointed out, certain other attributes are more difficult
to change, but rather the ability for people to modify
their skin color as they choose in a way that

(01:12:15):
is seen to be as innocuous as modifying one's hair
color or putting on contact lenses with different eye colors.
Why is skin color seen as.

Speaker 3 (01:12:28):
Having cultural interests?

Speaker 4 (01:12:32):
Right?

Speaker 3 (01:12:33):
Right?

Speaker 1 (01:12:33):
And yes, I think intent matters. So another commentator mentioned, well, blackface.
Blackface is bad, and it's clearly recognized as bad today.
Why is it because there's a history of that being
used to demean people and we don't want that to happen.

(01:12:54):
But let's say positive appropriation I think is so yes.

Speaker 2 (01:13:04):
So there have been bad actors for sure, and the
uh you know, related to the trains race topic, such
as that there was this guy named Ollie London who
became famous for wanting to be Korean. He got a
bunch of surgeries, he spent hundreds of thousands of dollars,
and he later came out as a Christian reactionary and
went against all of that and even transgender people as well.

(01:13:24):
And so but during the time that he was identifying
as Korean and the Korean woman, he was acting excessively
stereotypical in the videos he made music videos where he
had poorly pronounced Korean, and there was a bunch of
videos of Korean's reacting to it, and it was all
rage bait. And there is also this girl on Doctor
Phil called Treasure, and she said that she knew she

(01:13:46):
was white, but it wasn't because she aligned with white
you know, like European phenotypes or like the culture. But
she thought that she it was more like white supremacy
and her and her family, and it is believed that
her and her family set it up as a to
gain attention on Doctor Phil, such as the uh you know,
the cash me outside girl. And so a lot of
the hysteria around trans race and people is uh, the

(01:14:09):
people who identify as trans race publicly are trolls and
they're perpetuating stereotypes. But I do believe in uh, and
I think fundamentally people who genuinely identify with trans race,
I do so uh in a way that just which
is often detrimental to themselves. It's like, we look to
this at Rachel Gullizol and she like lost her less

(01:14:32):
her scholarship or something from uh, from the university or whatever,
which is I mean and a separate issue on its own,
Like I like, I do believe that ancestry can play
a part when it comes to like reparations. But uh,
but I but her identifying like as blacks seemed a
lot more genuine and she went a bunch of interviews
and lost a bunch of like public support and ruined

(01:14:54):
a reputation and stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:14:56):
So and people put themselves out.

Speaker 2 (01:14:58):
There genuinely, they they don't end up like elevating their
platforms like Ali London moved on to be he just
twitched up and be keeping this reactionary you know, uh,
you know, people who are genuine about it often now
lose that support. Similar to how there's the stereotype the
transgender people like come out of strands for attention, but
transgender people on average face a lot more discrimination, the

(01:15:20):
hardshiped and are fired from their jobs.

Speaker 3 (01:15:22):
And among other things and the and so.

Speaker 2 (01:15:26):
Uh so, Yeah, but I fundamentally don't believed and predetermined
or fixed identities, and so if race must be absolute
and unchanging, like you know, contingent on ancestry, then I
would say the transracialism. What it really comes down to is,
you know, we don't have another word for redefining race,
so it's more like race abolition or race reforming, like

(01:15:48):
and there's a lot of there's also a lot of
uh uh philosophers as well who have advocated for the
abolishing race, and there's videos on it which I've watched.
Because it comes down to that they don't want their
identity to find to be defined by history and bout
privilege and oppression and uh and yeah, that that if

(01:16:09):
racist to me. Thing that it should be like there's
uh that should be a specific set of you know,
phenotypes and uh, you know that there's sometimes related to
geographic location or uh, you know, con crossing over with
cultures sometimes but not directly tied to it. And uh see,
yeah that's a getn't just said about somewhere is.

Speaker 1 (01:16:32):
Yes, yes, I think that's a good answer. And along
those lines, Daniel Tweed writes, race is not a scientifically
correct substitute for ethnotype when describing Homo sapiens sapiens. So
there is, let's say, a more scientifically rigorous way to describe, say,
the origins of certain populations and how populations moved and

(01:16:56):
merged and dissimilated and diverged over time. We all have
common ancestors by the way, as humans, and we we
all originated genetically from Africa, and again populations diverged, and
now in an age of globalization, of course, populations are

(01:17:19):
coming together again increasingly and moving around and people are
Yeah that's.

Speaker 2 (01:17:24):
Another point, Yes, what what arbitrary point? And history did
people become this other race? It's uh, Now, when you
think about that, it's like, at some point, at some point,
we were all Africans. So is it if our ancestry
is all African, then are we all blacker?

Speaker 1 (01:17:44):
Uh?

Speaker 2 (01:17:45):
Or just the people who migrated out of Africa's within
the last arbitrary amount of years.

Speaker 1 (01:17:52):
Yes, And I would say it is difficult, too impossible
to draw a bright line. And I think that will
raise implications for the future. So if we do have
situations where there are space colonies, particularly ones that don't
maintain as much contact with let's say, the majority of

(01:18:15):
the human or transhuman civilization, or underwater settlements in similar situations,
and then six hundred years later we come across people
from those settlements and they look really different from us,
but we clearly had common origins. So where do you
draw a brightline?

Speaker 3 (01:18:34):
Again?

Speaker 1 (01:18:34):
These questions would be very challenging to answer at the
very least, but I hope we will in those future
societies have the tolerance and inclusivity and understanding to really
try to figure out how we can all get along
in spite of those differences. As our friend the rev

(01:18:57):
Truth be told, right, we are all so one, as
essentially being of the same level of being worthy of
respect right now, the same species, though in the future
there could be multiple species of sentiententities, but that's what

(01:19:18):
the transhumanist bill of right.

Speaker 3 (01:19:19):
Have you ever heard that? Yes?

Speaker 2 (01:19:23):
Have you ever heard the joke that was like, what
did the Buddhists say to the bartender or would the
monk or the enlightened person say the bartender?

Speaker 3 (01:19:31):
What did they say, make me one with everything?

Speaker 1 (01:19:37):
Okay, yeah, that's a good one. That's a good one.

Speaker 2 (01:19:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:19:41):
So now I will invite art Ramon to ask a question, yes.

Speaker 4 (01:19:47):
Sir, uh yeah, a lot of places to start from,
So let me find a focus here.

Speaker 3 (01:19:54):
Uh.

Speaker 4 (01:19:55):
You know, if you go back far enough, we're all related.
You know, I did by ancestory on FamilySearch dot org,
which is the Mormon site, and I found out that
Donald Trump is my sixteenth cousin five Times of moved.
But we're all related.

Speaker 1 (01:20:14):
You know.

Speaker 4 (01:20:15):
Our common ancestor is is Johann von Brudenberg, some German
noble who one of his daughters went to marry off
into Spanish nobility, and somehow that tripped down to be
So if you go back far enough, we're all related.
I think one of the ways that sort of the

(01:20:36):
differences came about after leaving Africa is interpritting with Neanderthals.
The Neanderthals had left Africa much much sooner, like hundreds
of thousands of years before, so they had hundreds of
thousands of years to sort of adapt to the colder climates,
which lightened her skin. And then as Africans left out

(01:20:58):
and for bread with them, they sort of took the shortcut,
a genetic shortcut, and automatically got that lightened skinned after
several generations of integreeding. So but but there are no
more pure bread Neanderthals, So that source of that of
that phenotype is sort of God unless we genetically, uh,

(01:21:21):
you know, control our own evolution, you know, through.

Speaker 3 (01:21:24):
Therapy, and I think that's ready evolution.

Speaker 4 (01:21:27):
Yeah, We're we're going to do that. So I think
the meaning of race is just going to disappear as
everyone decides to self direct their own porphology and their phenotypes.
So I think it's really the end of exactly. Everyone
is going to their own thing, and you know, you're

(01:21:50):
going to have this tribalism come about. You'll have people
who want to be who want to be those dragon people.
You know, you find out there are reptillions of the
planet where they want to sort of idolize and become
like these reptilians, and then they're going to turn themselves
into dragon like people. And then you have other people
who want to emulate the Nordics because the Nazis were

(01:22:15):
doing secret deals with alien species that look Nordics. And
you're just going to have all sorts of divergence going everywhere.
Eventually you'll have that divergence and you'll it'll converge again
on what's more practical and as culture changes, so you're
going to have a lot of fluidity.

Speaker 1 (01:22:34):
Uh.

Speaker 4 (01:22:35):
The difficult part will be as it starts to happen
is you know you have a trench cultural. How do
you say, uh, culture like like religious that is going
to try and restrict people from doing these things. Oh,
it's Satanic, don't do that. If you do that, you

(01:22:56):
know it's against God's word and you know you'll be
condemned to hell with with Satan. So I think that's
where I see the next big fight is with a
trench culture.

Speaker 3 (01:23:09):
My hope is that.

Speaker 4 (01:23:11):
Who wants to sort of evolve into that future that's
coming And you know, some say that there are other
you know, alien beings among us, and some that are
coming take over the planet because they don't want My.

Speaker 3 (01:23:27):
Hope is that.

Speaker 2 (01:23:31):
My hope is sort of that asi artificial superintelligence will
eventually take over and sort of push the reactionary ideologues
and movements out of the way so that people can
truly be free. You know, that would, but it also
depends on who's controlling it, I suppose.

Speaker 4 (01:23:49):
Yeah, that would be a good a good direction, especially
if it's not control by people who just want to
outright control everything out of their own ego. But yeah,
it's we're in very interesting times. You know, even at
my age of fifty three, I'm gonna live long enough
to see the strangest, strangest things happen and be part

(01:24:12):
of it. Uh So, yeah, my kids, who are still
in their twenties are going to live long enough to
see all this, you know, come about. And you know,
the life I lived was not the life that my
father lived, and so forth and so forth, and just
so just like that, my son is not living the
life I do up with. I mean, just radical differences

(01:24:37):
between the generations. So yeah, it's it's gonna be very
interesting times. I personally, as a transhumanist, I'm thinking more
of long term survival and whatever helps me get that,
you know, not necessarily morph into something for a cosmetic reason.

(01:24:58):
It's more all about Bible uhh. And you know I've
had my own experiences with a paranormal which I'm trying
to sort of integrate into my thoughts of just just
how real is it and how much of an effect
he will have, oh you know what in the future.

Speaker 2 (01:25:16):
Yes, it reminds me of an idea for a story
that I explored where I Sai over gets strained them
an island and comes across a mermaid and there's no
way for the Murmury to help him reach a land
like the like one hundreds of miles away, so she
helps him turn into uh Murph folk as well and

(01:25:39):
uh and and then survive all the resources of the
ocean so uh and then go to their underwater city
or whatever.

Speaker 4 (01:25:47):
Yeah, well, I mean the legends of murpho are are
our many and some say, you know, there they could
be alien or they could even be some previous uh
spece that lived on a planet and decided to sort
of break away to the underwater world and they have
since directed their own evolution to become these Myrrh type people.

(01:26:12):
And they don't really care to interact with us. They're
they're far beyond us. But occasionally, you know, not everyone
takes same and they have individuals that do come to
the surface to interact with us.

Speaker 3 (01:26:25):
But do you want to know something crazy?

Speaker 2 (01:26:28):
Sure, there's there's like no Mermaid video games like it
because all the video games.

Speaker 3 (01:26:34):
That we have are on land and it's like gard
like like basic physics for some.

Speaker 2 (01:26:38):
Reason, like vertical building and environments. There's this one level
in Kingdom Hearts called a Lane, which is made fairly well,
but there's like no more video games for some reason,
because I guess because even in that simulate environment, the UHB,
that sort of full three D like outplaying is just complicated.

Speaker 4 (01:27:01):
What I find interesting is that a certain sam amo
like killer whales and wells and dolphins, are rather the
friendly to humans. I think maybe they confuse us for murfolk.
That's why they don't attack us. It off there.

Speaker 2 (01:27:18):
I've heard about penguins confusing I've heard about penguins confusing
the humans for other penguins before.

Speaker 1 (01:27:27):
There is a video game that I am aware of
called Aquaria, which actually does try to essentially emulate that
kind of aquatic experience, So Scarlett, you may want to
check that one out if that interests you. Now. I

(01:27:51):
would also imagine that the Little Mermaid franchise would have
games of the sort. But that is, I think more
interestingly an early tale of transidentity. So, and I'm not
even talking about Disney's version of the Little Mermaid. I'm

(01:28:11):
talking about the Hans.

Speaker 3 (01:28:13):
Christ She went from mermaid to human?

Speaker 1 (01:28:15):
Yes, yes, so this is a a mermaid who wanted
to transform into a human woman. Now what's interesting is
the Hans Christian Andersen fairy tales are often much more
let's say, grim than the Disney versions. The Disney versions
were sanitized and made appealing to children. But I actually

(01:28:39):
read some of the Hans Christian Andersen fairy tales as
a child, and the Little Mermaid's fate is not pleasant
in that story. But it doesn't it was.

Speaker 3 (01:28:51):
Actually Christian propaganda, I believe.

Speaker 1 (01:28:55):
Well, I don't think that story condemns her attempts to
become human. I think it actually, to some extent, views
them favorably. But it's a tragic story. Nonetheless, there wasn't
the same idea of a happy ending on what she
has to go through to experience that humanity ends.

Speaker 2 (01:29:18):
Up dislike glorified silence. It like glorified silence and suffering,
like silence and suffering and just being obedient and not
really sticking up for yourself. And what really tick me
off about the original Little Mermaid is that she had
all kinds of ways to like play charades and like
emphasize somehow that she was actually the one who saved

(01:29:40):
the prince, but she never did so even would give
it a whole month, you know, while Ariel was able
to you know, get things wrapped up with with Eric
in like a few days.

Speaker 3 (01:29:49):
Yeah, and uh.

Speaker 2 (01:29:52):
Yeah, she had a whole month to do something something
to show that she was actually the one that saved him,
and he ended up believing that it was some other
girl who said who's saved them and married him. And
even after that, she even after he came back and
was like, all right, I'm marrying this to this other
girl and she's the one who saved me.

Speaker 3 (01:30:07):
She didn't try to protest and be like like point.

Speaker 2 (01:30:09):
All she had to know was point to herself, like
you know, like point to herself and then point to
the sea, you know, and like charade like swimming you know.

Speaker 3 (01:30:17):
Saving is I don't know as.

Speaker 2 (01:30:19):
Crazy, but yeah, it was just like a suppose it
was like glorifying, you know, the the idea of a
perfect Christian wife.

Speaker 3 (01:30:28):
I believe.

Speaker 2 (01:30:29):
Uh so, I don't know if it's if he was Christian,
but it's just like glorifying the idea of like a
perfect subservient like woman who'd say, like sacrifices and doesn't
like a win in the end supposed.

Speaker 1 (01:30:43):
I'm not sure if glorification. I think it was intended
to be tragic.

Speaker 2 (01:30:47):
Hey, soh so it was like a point against it.
It was a point against Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:30:54):
Yes, maybe so maybe if it was, it wasn't intense
to show her as a role model in terms of
how she acted. It was intended to just tell a
kind of tragic tale that this happened despite her attempts.

(01:31:15):
She was put in this impossible situation. So that's how
I see.

Speaker 3 (01:31:21):
It wasn't the worst of right, and the Disney's version
wasn't bad either, right.

Speaker 1 (01:31:28):
And the Disney version of course reflects, let's say, some
of the transformations that have happened culturally since the nineteenth
century and the sense that, yes, audiences overwhelmingly wanted a
happy ending for the Little Mermaid and Disney.

Speaker 2 (01:31:45):
The Disney's Little Mermaid I think did really good at
emphasizing like personal control over your life and like taking
charge and even at great, great risk, like your own transformations,
doing what's necessary to succeed and make your goals. You know,
that's a great message for transhumitists.

Speaker 1 (01:32:03):
Yes, indeed, so we've had quite a fascinating conversation already,
ranging from let's say, the future of space settlers to
the Little Mermaid, and we have so much more that
we could discuss. First of all, another comment from the
Reverend Truth be told, mind blown. Thank you Scarlet for

(01:32:25):
shedding like to me on this very hot topic. Being
an episcopalian, I thought I was so woke and understood
the trans thing, but I knew nothing. Feel better soon,
So yes, thank you very much for that comment. Now,
Jason Geringer has an interesting question that I think you
could provide some insight on. How do you feel about

(01:32:47):
parents genetically altering their unborn babies to change their race?
So my view is, because race is a social construct,
I don't think you can do that. I don't think
it's really feasible to do that. I would not because
there's not one gene. Okay, so switch on or off?
But what do you think?

Speaker 3 (01:33:09):
Okay?

Speaker 2 (01:33:10):
So I saw that Japan recently put some news out
on Twitter that they had successfully eliminated the gene that
causes Down syndrome, and I think that's awesome and that
no child should be born with Down syndrome or even
like extreme like if we have the ability to remove
like extreme like autism and Down syndrome and other like

(01:33:30):
physical deformalities.

Speaker 3 (01:33:32):
I think it would be.

Speaker 2 (01:33:33):
Great if we have a standard, a universal standard, so
that all babies can be born, you know, without setbacks
and compared to others, so that we're all like coming
out of the race on an equal footing. However, they
should be able to, you know, make more arbitrary decisions
about their identity and appearance, like if they want to
change their race, which really has not shouldn't have an

(01:33:53):
effect on their life like later in life for that,
you know, of their appearance. Then they should be able
to do that later. But I wouldn't to alter I
don't think it would be acceptable to alter aesthetic things
about like mostly aesthetic things about a baby before they're born,
or to like make them, you know, or like some
kind of gene that makes them grow up to be

(01:34:15):
you know, super strong and fast in comparison to other kids,
or that they're gonna grow like you're gonna edit the
gene to make sure they grow up to be eight
foot tall and Greek god goddess or something.

Speaker 3 (01:34:27):
I think that's we should.

Speaker 2 (01:34:28):
We should have, you know, limits, you know, eliminate diseases,
you know, and then let people pursue their own destiny
as they grow up, you know.

Speaker 3 (01:34:40):
But I also wouldn't say we should. Yeah, but of
course there's also a.

Speaker 2 (01:34:46):
Worry that you know, we would use it to eliminate
uh to like I guess eternal kids, uh I guess
sis head or sis or like. It could also enforce
this heateron normativity. But I wouldn't want to uh to
make any alter now to like brain chemistry, to like,
you know, fix an idea proceed like predetermined identity. It's

(01:35:10):
like that's and they should also figure out on their
own as they grow up, just in case that came
up next.

Speaker 1 (01:35:16):
I think it's definitely a lot less questionable to have
somatic gene editing that people can undergo as adults to
change whatever attribute they like, then for those changes to
be let's say, implemented without the consent of a child.

(01:35:39):
But I agree also that if the changes are unambiguously
helpful or they remove an unambiguous harm, like removing a
genetic illness or a predisposition toward a genetic illness. The
elimination of Down syndrome is an excellent example because there's
no way in which yes, person having Down syndrome is

(01:36:02):
better off than an otherwise identical person who doesn't have
Down syndrome. Now, in the realm of other changes, Jason
does have a follow up question, so how far does
it go? How much can parents change their kids? Because
he says, somebody is going to want to get crazy
with it.

Speaker 3 (01:36:20):
So my thought is, I think it might be inevitable.

Speaker 1 (01:36:26):
Right, it might be inevitable, And I think the question
is one of are they unambiguously helping that child or
removing a harm? And to a certain extent, esthetic modifications
they can be performed in a different way. So even

(01:36:47):
right now, there is such a practice as embryo selection.
If there's in vitro fertilization, for instance, and the couple
can decide which if several embryos gets implanted, and they
could have some idea of the genome of the embryos
or the viability of the embryos, and they can choose

(01:37:07):
the embryo that they like the best. But of course,
right now, with today's level of technology and understanding, they're
not going to be able to know perfectly what characteristics
that child is going to have. Now, in the future,
we will hopefully have ectogenesis artificial wounds, and it might
be possible for a couple or parent to decide, right,

(01:37:34):
So that could be any sort of couple. So, for instance,
a gay couple could decide to have a child through
an artificial womb, and they could decide, well, here are
the attributes we want, here's the genetic code we want
for this child, and it could be somewhat related to
the genetic code of the parent or not, and they

(01:37:56):
could essentially place an order with the company that hosts
these artificial wombs and have a child incubated with that
genetic code. So, in that situation, yes, the parents have
a very explicit kind of ability to influence the genetic
makeup of the child, but they're not really altering an

(01:38:19):
embryo that already came about, their kind of custom tailoring
and entirely new embryos. So what are your thoughts as
to that distinction?

Speaker 2 (01:38:33):
So, like the kid will grow up and have a
different color eyes or hair, or are different slightly shaped
features or something right embryo.

Speaker 1 (01:38:44):
These parents hypothetically could decide to have a child that
looks very different from them. So let's say they both
have dark hair and they want the child to have
blonde hair, they both have blue eyes and they want
the child to have of brown eyes, or whatever the
case may be. They could hypothetically put in the characteristics

(01:39:07):
as long as it's known what genes code for those characteristics,
hypothetically in an artificial womban the kids.

Speaker 2 (01:39:16):
Sometimes, I mean, I think people like to relate to
their family and for there not to be a huge
variation of differences, like I guess sometimes you can have
genetic splits or something, and that there was at some
point in history where people didn't have modolids while they
were in China, and then they suddenly did have modolids,

(01:39:37):
and and so there was so there was like their
parents said, I guess didn't have modolids, but.

Speaker 3 (01:39:42):
They did or maybe or oh no, maybe it's more gradual.

Speaker 2 (01:39:46):
But yeah, I'm not sure how I feel about kids
having physical features that are too different from their parents,
but I can I can see there being like you know,
I guess I can see there being like reasonable at differences,
but I think kids like to not have cognitive distance

(01:40:08):
dissonance and like I guess unless they decide later on
that they want to have some kind of transidentity and
uh and the change aspects about themselves. But uh, you know,
when we look at then then again we also find
it's acceptable to have transracial adopt these and the of
course there's a difference between them and trans race people,

(01:40:29):
like transracial adoptees, they're adopted by the parents of a
different race, and uh, sometimes they you know, they see
that different that contrast between their parents of themselves and
also the community and themselves, and you know, there's got
to be a lot done to ensure their mental comfort,
uh and so on. So not really sure.

Speaker 3 (01:40:49):
I feel like the line is.

Speaker 2 (01:40:50):
A bit possibly a bit arbitrary of what we could say,
like whether we should be allowed to alter their eye
color uh before they're there. And I'm sorry, I can't
you know, the defend the definition. But I feel like
there could be some acceptance, like to a degree, but
not like change their entire racial appearance, like if there

(01:41:11):
would otherwise be born you know, with similar you know
structure appearance as their parents, you know, like they maybe maybe,
just maybe their eye color and hair color would be okay,
because I mean, my parents didn't have blonde hair, and
I was I live with blonde hair as a kid,
and I thought it was awesome and it turned back
later on, and uh, I love my blonde hair.

Speaker 3 (01:41:33):
So I guess there are things that can be acceptable
and others like the Sara's chicks.

Speaker 2 (01:41:38):
But I mean, that'll that'll though, though those will probably
be really long drawn out, like legal conversations. When we
were writing the you know, the uh you know, the
ifs and butts you know about genetic about designer babies
in the future, but that that is really fascinating a
subject though, and uhs I wish I was.

Speaker 3 (01:41:57):
A designer baby though.

Speaker 2 (01:41:58):
There would be so cool everyone and without aconemy, I
can sit at the cool kids stainable, you know, but
uh it's uh sort of.

Speaker 1 (01:42:07):
Yes. I think these are definitely questions that deserve a
lot more discussion, and it's fine not to have an
extremely well defined answer to each possibility, because I think
very few people do. There are some intuitions that people
have as to what would or wouldn't be acceptable, Like

(01:42:31):
clearly it would not be acceptable to give your child
a disability or a handicap. Like let's say there are
two parents who are deaf. Their child doesn't have to
be deaf. If they genetically engineer deafness into that child,
that would be a travesty.

Speaker 3 (01:42:45):
But going the other way is fine.

Speaker 1 (01:42:47):
So if two parents are deaf, but they don't want
their child to be deaf, engineering deafness out of that
embryo would be fine and would be an improvement. So
I think there are.

Speaker 3 (01:43:00):
That's also why I.

Speaker 2 (01:43:04):
That's also why I oppose uh uh trains IDs such
as trains harmed and uh, I guess anything else like that.
There's some ultra human identities like uh, plant can and
object can, which essentially it could correlate to dying because
if you've become a plant, then you lose your brain and.

Speaker 3 (01:43:25):
Uh, and it's I guess it's fine on a spiritual level.

Speaker 2 (01:43:28):
It's like you identify as a graceful Secoia tree, but
if you literally become one, then that's it's like dying.
So but and yeah, I guess we would apply the
same principles to UH to being born. You know a
lot of reactionaries say like use the slippery slope argument,

(01:43:48):
like if we allow transgenderism, there what happens when people
can change their race or even their speech. It it's like,
it's just it's just so crazy. And it's like, it's
not about whether it's crazy or so weird or whatever.
It's about liberty. It's about I'm a libertarian, and it's
about principles. It's like, it's about harm and consent, you know,
and that's what not all I should be about. But yeah,

(01:44:12):
the designer pay me things, I was I wasn't expecting
that the conversation that's a really good that's a really
good topic.

Speaker 1 (01:44:17):
I didn't think of absolutely, and I think it is
a topic that's relevant to the broader conversation that we
have been having. But the emphasis on harm and avoiding
harm is crucial, and I think that is indeed where
the line gets crossed between modifications that we welcome and

(01:44:38):
modifications that we oppose. And there are many, let's say,
routinely performed modifications today that are harmful that we shouldn't
accept as a culture, whether or not they're legal. So
sentinel abuse, Can I see one more thing? Yes, please
go ahead.

Speaker 3 (01:44:57):
There's also a difference.

Speaker 2 (01:44:58):
There's also a difference between an identity that's inherently harmful
like trains harmed, and also like all it may cause
the potential for harm to be done, like a lot
of trains. Folks will say, like someone shouldn't change their
gender because it subtracts from the experiences of you know,
women's like if they're forced to you know, share spaces

(01:45:18):
and stuff in prisons, that like all women may be
more salted in prison are uh and stuff. But you
know that's just you were just talking about risks that
shouldn't subtract from one's ability and right to transition. Yeah, Similarly,
I'm on trains race people. Sometimes people will say like
if someone's allowed to change the race, then they'll perpetuate stereotypes.

(01:45:41):
And it's like, okay, but what if they don't, What
if they don't perpetuate stereotypes this like, that's not inherently
you know, perpetuate that. We don't agree, that's not inherently
perpetuating stereotypes change your race or doesn't inherently, you know,
subtract from women's rights for me to be a trains woman,
or it doesn't horror animals to become an animal. Then

(01:46:02):
on the you know, we're a super intelligent dog from
Rick and Morty or whatever then or mermaids, and then
there shouldn't be any.

Speaker 3 (01:46:12):
There should be any issue, you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (01:46:15):
Yes, I do think it's a question of, let's say,
not categorizing these kinds of transformations as generally harmful or
not harmful, but looking at the individual cases. So yes,
I agree, it's quite possible for people to undergo these
transformations and be perfectly harmless respect the rights of others.

(01:46:38):
That's what we want, yes, as long as it is
indeed sincere. But there are some people who have ulterior motives,
and I do think sometimes the critics fixate on those,
like people who like, let's say, males who pretend to
be frands women in order to abuse women, and that

(01:47:00):
of course should not be acceptable in any society. But
I think it's very important to be individualists about this
and to see not just how to characterize a broad
category of people, but what are the motivations of a
particular person. And there's a spectrum, and some people are

(01:47:22):
frankly just unhinged, and they're going to want to inflict
harm no matter what identity they assume or try to
represent themselves as being, or they might not make any
assertions about their identity. They might just be bad people.
So I think we should judge people based on what

(01:47:44):
they do, what they intend to do, and if what
they do is peaceful, if what they do respects the
rights of others, then I'm fine with it, as long
as essentially I'm afforded that same respect. So we have
about six minutes left in our virtual Enlightenment salon, and

(01:48:10):
there are still so many different questions or concepts that
we could explore. Now. Rudy Hoffman, our friend wrights that
his mind was being blown by the panoply of options
on the menu that you provided, Scarlet, And yes, I

(01:48:33):
think there's a yeah that that is probably a sampler
of what the future is going to look like. But
I think the broader point is, to a certain extent,
each person can fit into one or more of these

(01:48:53):
options in the sense that they want something fundamentally to
change about who they are or their identity at present
for whatever reason. And I think for most transhumanists it's
because they perceive limitations to their bodies, to their biology,

(01:49:14):
to for instance, what aging does to their organisms, and
they want to alter that they want to have more
autonomy years. Yes, and they want to live longer too,
and they are frustrated by the fact that right now
there are certain involuntary constraints imposed upon them that threaten

(01:49:39):
to literally erase their identities. And through science and technology,
we can influence that at least delay it hopefully prevented.
I think there should be greater acceptance of that as well.

Speaker 2 (01:49:55):
And I think where philosophers, if only Asian philosophers talking
about the Fountain of life and writing books about that,
knute all these other things that we'd be talking about
in the future. It's not just about living forever, it's
about all the possibilities with it.

Speaker 1 (01:50:13):
Yes, And a lot of transhumanists have discussed body modifications,
not just in terms of cyborgism or having non biological parts,
but even through genetic engineering having biological parts, other kinds

(01:50:33):
of functionalities that animals may have. And for instance, somebody
may want the ability to breathe underwater without identifying as
another animal species, but that could be a human with gills,
for instance, and the gills just offer that person the
ability to, for instance, dive underwater without diving equipment. Or

(01:50:58):
somebody might want to have the ability to fly. I
wouldn't be surprised if there would be humans who try
to have some sorts of wings. I would probably say, can.

Speaker 3 (01:51:10):
I tell you something?

Speaker 1 (01:51:11):
Yes, please go ahead.

Speaker 2 (01:51:13):
My first, my very first inspiration that was sort of
like trains in nature. I guess I was a little
kid and I used to play Spiral and crash Bandicoot
all the time, and I came up with an idea
of something called I called it button turned into when reback,
And it was like idea I had that I could
just press a button and turn into my favorite video

(01:51:33):
game characters when I wanted to and run around and
breathe fire into cool stuff, or could do col spins
or be come a princess and U and then when
I was done, I would turn back into me.

Speaker 3 (01:51:45):
Now, I mean, of course, of course I wanted to
turn back into that version of me.

Speaker 2 (01:51:49):
I didn't consider that self is a strange gender or
any other thing then. But then, I mean, as time
went on, I started like having stronger feelings about actually
wanting to uh and change my real identity.

Speaker 3 (01:52:01):
And so a lot of self exploration sort of happens
for me a young age. And then we sort of
close ourselves off to.

Speaker 2 (01:52:14):
This exploration as we age sometimes, but I feel like
that's changing as as more identities are becoming acceptable.

Speaker 1 (01:52:23):
Yes, I think that has to do with neuroplasticity as well.
Aging tends to reduce neuroplasticity, and if biological aging can
be reversed, I think people will have younger biologically younger
brains that would be more open to exploration. But also

(01:52:44):
to your point, at least with certain modifications, reversibility is
important or at least advantageous. So I was going to mention,
I think it would be very interesting to have wings
and to have the ability to fly essentially unaided, but
it would be better to have those wings in the

(01:53:06):
form of a wing suit rather than wings that are
permanently affixed to one's body, just because if you're on
land and you're interacting as a terrestrial being, those wings, well,
they can get in the way. And that's just a
fairly basic observation about physical constraints. So I would imagine, yes, yes,

(01:53:29):
and those practical considerations will lead to a lot of permutations,
a lot of different let's say, modular and reversible transformations
that people might undergo in the future. And art Ramone
points out wings get in the way of scuba diving
as well. So yes, if you want to be an

(01:53:51):
aquatic being, yeah, we have about a minute left. But
if it's a quick question, please go ahead.

Speaker 2 (01:53:57):
Okay, Yes, if there is one major development, yeah, among
all the things I talked about, like you able to fly,
or anthropomorphism or becoming merphulk or going out into space
or anything else, like the one development that you want
to see, Like, like, what would what are you most
excited for people to be able to explore in the future.

Speaker 1 (01:54:20):
Well, I would say the range of worlds that people
could explore is ever expanding, whether these be the outer
worlds like space or undersea habitats, or even new landscapes
or new cities that haven't been built yet. I think
I would be excited to explore future cities and futuristic architecture,

(01:54:43):
or inner worlds, worlds of the intellect or fiction or
virtual reality. All of those would be fascinating. But for
all of those, there's one common aspect, and that is
you have to be alive to explore them. And that's
why I would say expansion of lunge devity is what
I'm most looking forward to. But I hope yes, and

(01:55:05):
I hope that that will be for all of us. Yes,
just if you could do it in like fifteen seconds
and then we will conclude.

Speaker 3 (01:55:16):
Yeah. Yeah, trains rights and transhumanism is the future.

Speaker 1 (01:55:19):
Yes. Yes, that's a great statement to end on and
for everyone. Thank you for tuning in today. I hope
we can all live long and prosper

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