S5 E19 - The Brutal Murders at Hinterkaifeck Farm - True Crime and Wine Time

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:13):
Yep. Oh there we are. There, we are. Hello, Hello everyone,
and welcome to another episode of True Crime and Wine Time,
where we dive into the most jaw dropping true crime
story as well something sipping something smooth to take the
edge off, because I'm going to need that today. I'm

(00:33):
your host, Lama and the lovely Terry true Crime couldn't
be here tonight because she is all celebrating her birthday
with her besties. So I hope you're having a great
time Terry, hold on the four down, and if you
happen to see her, tell her happy birthday, because yesterday
it's her birthday. But because she couldn't be here, I
brought on fantastic this way. I think it is Lady

(00:54):
and Gray. Some of you may have seen her in
chat as she's one of our lovely mots nice also
one of our case researchers, including tonight's case. She'll always
research and I'm like, hey, I have this bizarre, weird
foreign story. Let's tell it. I'm like, Lady and Gray,
what do you think about this? And you may have

(01:16):
seen her in one of my many other shows, Couch Confessions,
where we talked about her jury duty experience, but before
she begins, everybody, poor glass, lock your doors and let's
uncork the truth behind some of the darkest of crimes.

Speaker 2 (01:33):
How you all, I'm a little nervous, so please be
patient and forgiving, especially when I butcher the German words
with my hill billy accent, because it's gonna happen. I'm
feeling and tonight we're going to do some traveling as
this case happened one hundred and three years ago, time
craving artists and then around halfway around the world. The

(01:56):
Hindri Kaifak family massacre is considered one of the most
gruesome and puzzling unsolved crimes in German history.

Speaker 1 (02:04):
That it is and it was definitely one of those
where as soon as I saw it and I was like, hey,
I think you're gonna lick this one, and she said, yes, yes,
sign me up. I got that one. But before we begin,
let's say hi to our chat friends real quick. We
got dope meditations, cough cop, Hello and welcome Polly Prissy Pants. Hi, Hey, Groy,

(02:33):
there's the Mama Lama herself. Hope you're doing good, Mama Lama. Yes, yes,
I know, it's been it's been a busy week to
the LA since the winery, I can say words, this
is what happens when you don't do shows for like
a week and a half. You're like, how does my
mouth work? I don't know. But anyway, before we begin, guys,

(02:53):
I think you kind of know the drill. Okay, if
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(03:15):
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download on some of them, as it helps our little
pod get noticed. Also, last weekend, Terry Truchime and I

(03:39):
performed live in Marion, Ohio to a packed audience and
we covered the case of Andy Chapman and Joey LaBute Junior,
and it was an absolutely wonderful experience. We've been talking
about this for like two months and it finally happened.

(04:01):
It was wonderful. I know, I can't wait to do
another live show again. So if any of you would
like to see True Crime and Wine Time perform live
in your area, you can fill out one of our
forms of locations around you, or you can email a
list of venues to Terry at Terry t E. R

(04:23):
I at tcwtmedia dot com. Because we're ready to go.
I get one live show up under my belt, and
I'm like, let's do more. Something I thought I would
never say, and probably was still saying up until like
five minutes before we went live last Saturday, just me

(04:44):
in a corner with Terry like I don't want to
do it inside anyway, it was oh thank you. It
was a wonderful time. It was it was amazing. But
with that, why don't we get into what we're drinking tonight?
I ain't? Shall we? So I somehow still have a

(05:04):
few bottles of this Kirkland signature Vada BOBINDI. I don't
know how to say it. I am look it up
because it's Kirkland signature, because we're classy. Anyway, it's for specco.
It's been It was left over from our live show
last weekend. Again somehow, I don't know, because we're of
us drink a lot, but I also have put some

(05:28):
simply strawberry juice. On this unbearably hot summer day.

Speaker 2 (05:37):
Well, I'm drinking. This is gonna be interesting. A non
alcoholic beverage. It's called you can see it. Yes, I
call it liars.

Speaker 1 (05:50):
I was I was gonna looks like liars to but.

Speaker 2 (05:53):
I call it liars because it's lug, it's large, and
it's not real gene, right, but it I'm not sure
exactly what's in it, except I know it has natural
flavors and botanicals and you have to refrigerator and as
an expiration date because it's not really alcohol, right. But
it does make a really nice refreshing drink on another

(06:15):
hot day. It's a hot day in Tennessee too.

Speaker 1 (06:18):
It's a hot day everywhere. From when I heard you,
I heard our southern friends. It's like one hundred and
twelve down there.

Speaker 2 (06:23):
It's hot.

Speaker 1 (06:26):
Yeah, no, thank you, no, thank you, Well you guys.
Let's get into this, shall we. So what's interesting about
this case is that the German police remember this all
happened one hundred years ago. Okay, but the German police
have already admitted that they know who the suspect likely was,

(06:50):
except they won't tell us. It's like cute, It's not cute.
I think it's very weird considering that it was over
one hundred years ago, and I think it's safe to
assume at this point all potential suspects would in fact
be dead. But here we are, and tonight we're going
to go through the crime. We're going to explore the

(07:10):
mini theories and potential suspects, and we want you to
leave a comment on our video or podcast if you're
listening to Report podcasts, and let us know what you
think or who you think may have committed this egregious crime.
And by the way, before I turn over to Lady
and Great, you guys, this kind of reads like a spooky.

Speaker 2 (07:32):
Story, just to let you know it is.

Speaker 1 (07:36):
It's like it's spooky.

Speaker 2 (07:37):
Halloween time is so let's set the scene for you guys.
The form at hinter Kathak, this is in the Bavarian
area of Germany, was built around eighteen sixty three and
was about a mile north of Kafak Germany and was

(07:58):
bordered by very dense and fields, so it was a
very rural area. And the nearest neighbor farmers by the way,
was about a third of a mile away from this
house the property. And I will say it's creepy and
it would be perfect for a Netflix psychological thriller. I

(08:18):
mean you just wait, agreed. In eighteen seventy seven, the
matriarch of the story, Cecilia, married a man named Joseph
Ossam and they were in the hinter Kaifak farm by
his father and together they had four children, but only
two of them survived, Infancy Martin and Cecilia the second

(08:45):
or is it junior.

Speaker 1 (08:47):
That's a good question.

Speaker 2 (08:49):
Yeah, And Joseph died of pneumonia in eighteen eighty five,
and then at the age of thirty five, Cecilia the
elder began with laship with Andreas Gruber, a twenty seven
year old farm hand, and the two married in eighteen
eighty six.

Speaker 1 (09:07):
It's quite the age difference mm hm, but okay. Well
after their marriage, Andreas owned fifty percent of the worth
of the farm, which was probably his motivation for marrying her.
It appears that the customs at the time did not

(09:27):
permit a subsequent marriage to take the property of the
original heirs of said property, in this case Joseph Asam
and Cecilia's two children. So it doesn't work like how
we're used to Basically they get nothing. It's now Cecilia
and Andreas right.

Speaker 2 (09:48):
Well, Andrea Cecilia would go on to have three children
of their own, but only Victoria survived infancy. Now, there
were many rumors about this family we'll discuss later tonight,
and one of the first ones is that their other
two children died by starvation and neglect. But there's no
documentation of this, it's just a rumor. This seems unlikely

(10:11):
to have been anything nefarious, as it wasn't a rare
occurrence back in around the turn of the century where
children didn't make it to adulthood and the youngest baby
died on the day it was born. So maybe Andrea's
is off the hood with this rumor.

Speaker 1 (10:28):
And this rumor.

Speaker 2 (10:31):
We got our.

Speaker 1 (10:33):
Many of the rumors seem to have been fueled by
Andreas's character because he was just he was just not
a nice guy. It wasn't great as id knowing to say,
Andreas was extremely abrasive not very social and he had
an explosive temper, and he abused his wife and his daughter,

(10:55):
as well as Cecilia's children from her first marriage. And
of these children, Joseph and Cecilia the second left the farm.
But it's unclear if they left because they grew up
and sorry their own lives, or if they left to
get away from Andreas. So I can't believe them if

(11:17):
they did.

Speaker 2 (11:18):
No, it's possible that the son left when he got drafted,
because in Germany that was a big thing. You had
to do your military service and if you wanted to
get married later on in life, you had to prove
you served when that was a big thing. But I
don't know that it was the case. Now let's talk
about Victoria Andrea Sinsys, who's only child together, who made

(11:42):
it to adulthood. She also lived on the farm. Victoria
was beautiful, smart, very outgoing and about in her religion.
She attended church twice a week and was a member
of the choir. She had seemed to have good friends
at the church and by all appearances the picture of
a well adjusted social girl. But behind closed doors, he

(12:06):
was leaving a nightmare. Yeah, her father, Andreas was abusing her,
and at age sixteen, he began an incestuous relationship with her.

Speaker 1 (12:21):
We're not gonna like Andreas. No is not great.

Speaker 2 (12:25):
No.

Speaker 1 (12:26):
But Victoria did confide in a neighbor, Lorenz Shitlindenbauer, Yeah,
who will become a very important person later in the story.
But she confided in him about the abuse from her father,
and Lorenz later went to the police and told them
that it was a well known fact that Andreas had

(12:48):
a relationship with his own daughter. Lorenz told them that
Victoria told him how it all started when she was sixteen,
and that Victoria had told his first wife she was
unable to stand the sight of her father because he
was always forcing himself on her. This guy, I know.

Speaker 2 (13:11):
In April nineteen fourteen, Victoria married Carl Gabriel. She was
twenty seven, he was twenty six. The groups were considered
well off, and Carl's family wanted to improve their social status,
so they encouraged the marriage in order to move on up.
They knew that when Victorian Karl married, she would inherit

(13:33):
the farm as sort of a dowry, and the Hendrik
eifect farmeddn't in fact passed to Victorian Carl, but nothing
really changed, Andres and Cecilia still lived there and worked
on the farm. However, all was not peaceful, But then
how could it be peaceful. Daddy dearest was still there,

(13:54):
don't you imagine?

Speaker 1 (13:56):
No, Andreas was extremely jealous. Weird, but he was extremely
jealous of the relationship between his daughter and her new husband,
and he began to act out in petty ways. He
had picked fights and bully Carl, like not giving him
any food. And Carl was like, f this noise and

(14:20):
went back to his parents. But his parents were all like, no,
we want that farm, so you need to go back
and try to make it work. Weird but okay. However,
after four months of marriage in August nineteen fourteen, Carl
was out done finished. But was he really? We'll see

(14:44):
more intrigue about Carl later in this story. Everyone of
these pictures just looks so pissed all the time.

Speaker 2 (14:54):
There's no joy in that Bavaria.

Speaker 3 (14:58):
Is there?

Speaker 2 (14:58):
No beer? I don't know?

Speaker 1 (15:04):
Well, so Carl, hy Terry, Sorry, the girls in the.

Speaker 2 (15:10):
Birthday girls here, Hi, Terry, have a good time.

Speaker 1 (15:18):
Tell me about Carl.

Speaker 2 (15:19):
Carl, Well, he thought he came up with a really
good plan, so enlisted in the army. But yeah, world
War War, World War one, the Great One had basically
just begun, so it's a big telling that he would
prefer to take his chances in war rather than remain
married to Victoria and live at hinter Kaifak, despite the

(15:42):
fact that Victoria, Wow, what a mustache on that guy.
Is it a requirement, you know, in the army. I
don't know. But Victoria had just told him she was pregnant,
but he went anyway, So maybe he questioned the baby's paternity.

(16:05):
Who wouldn't knowing about Andres and Victoria, and that's why
he said, I'm out of here, right, he'd left.

Speaker 1 (16:12):
He high tailed it out of here, out of there. Well. Interestingly,
some unknown person filed a complaint either in nineteen fourteen
or nineteen fifteen against Andreas Kruber and his daughter Victoria
for their incestuous relations, and at that time Victoria would
have been pregnant or would have just given birth to

(16:36):
little Cecilia. Yes, this is the third one who was
named after her maternal grandmother. If you haven't noticed, everyone
in the story seems to have the same names, so
if their kids will refer to them as litl to
keep track because it's everybody has the same name.

Speaker 2 (16:54):
It's yeah. So a big question is who was this
unknown person that filed the complaint in nineteen fourteen or fifteen?
Was it Karl Gabriel and or his family. Was that
the neighbor Laurence Schlittenbauer, who knew what was going on.
It's unclear if Laurence is the person who filed the
complaint in nineteen fourteen nineteen fifteen, or if he only

(17:19):
reported the question of a relationship when he is actually
documented to have filed a complaint in nineteen nineteen, which
we will get later to in the story, and it's important.
It seems the most likely source of this earlier complaint
in nineteen fourteen nineteen fifteen is a maid who left
the employment of the Groovers after she witnessed Andreas abusing Victoria.

Speaker 1 (17:41):
I think that line sounds about right. Oh, look at Terry,
True crime, super sick Terry.

Speaker 2 (17:49):
She's doing that because she's making us feel better, because
she's gone skinny dipping. She said that.

Speaker 1 (17:54):
I'm gonna say it's her skinny dipping. Kind yeah, played
Matt Terry, and I wouldn't put it past her. She
is everything you think she is in person, which is
fabulous and extra in all of the best ways, all
of the best ways. She's exactly the same, and I
love her for it. She's off to drink even more. Well,

(18:16):
Happy birthday, thanks babe. Be safe, all right, don't go
chasing black rat snakes. All right. So now this next
part of the story really pisses me off. But it
was a different time than so regardless of who it

(18:36):
was that reported them, the court found Andrea's and Victoria
guilty and both of them served one year in prison.
Mm hmm, yeah, that's right. She served time too, although
there is a conflicting report that Victoria only served one month.
Maybe her pregnancy or having just given birth was the
reason she only served one month, though we don't know.

(18:59):
It's unclear as to why Victoria was also charged and
imprisoned along with Andreas, although local officials were in charge
of prosecuting fornication laws. Yeah, I just I don't understand why.
But okay, I suspect it was probably due to her
age at the time, because she would have been around
twenty seven years old, and perhaps the court thought she

(19:24):
was a willing participant because Obviously, course of control wasn't
a thing in nineteen fifteen, because I'm gonna go with no.

Speaker 2 (19:36):
I'm going to go with either. Well, after Victoria was
released from jail, after her month or her year, I
tend to think it was probably the month, because after
she got out she started looking for a husband with it.
Before Andreas was released from custody in nineteen fifteen, this

(19:57):
was a valid plan for her and probably her her
only valuable option to escape her father's unwanted attention. And
Victoria didn't look too far, and she tried to begin
an affair with that neighbor, Laurence Schlittenbauer. Laurence was thirteen
years older than her and he was wealthy in his

(20:20):
own right, but there was a slight problem. Reportedly, he
refused her advances due to his marriage and children. So
if at point you're wondering if this is a German TELENOVELA, yes,
yes it is.

Speaker 1 (20:38):
Oh boy, I don't think he did, but whatever. However,
after his wife, who was also named Victoria, which I
would say is weird if apparently there were more than
five names back then. Anyway, Victoria died in nineteen eighteen,
and he actually did quickly take up with a life Victoria,

(21:04):
maybe a bit too quickly. I'm questioning his honesty about
his claim of refusing Victoria previously anyone else, because I'm
just saying, I'm also curious how the wife died. You know,
it is the time of the Spanish flu and whatnot,
so maybe that's the reason. Or is this something more nefarious.

(21:28):
I mean, the farm is technically victorious, so that could
be a motive to kill your wife and marry her.
I'm just saying, I'm just saying, do we know how
Victoria died?

Speaker 2 (21:42):
Well? Lauren soon proposed marriage to Victoria, and she agreed,
as this would provide her an escape from her father
and additional financial security as well. However, when Laurence approached
Andre's and said he would only marry Victoria if in
Victoria both totally ended their insistuous relationship, Andreas replied that

(22:08):
he would think about it. Really, Daddy DearS wants to
think about it.

Speaker 1 (22:15):
Gross, Just this whole conversations gross. But before Andreas could
give Lorenz an answer, Victoria and now she was pregnant
with Lorenz's baby. Don't don't know that's right, She's pregnant again.

(22:38):
And Lorenz was not happy as he very well knew
that Andreas, her father, could be the father of that baby.
And according to Lorenz, though he and Victoria only had
sex five times, search it takes exactly one time, one time, sure,

(23:06):
whatever you have to tell yourself, like.

Speaker 2 (23:11):
To convince himself that you had to be more than once?
Oh boy, well, Laurence. So, Laurence knew that Victoria and
Andres had been continuing in their relationship and openly accused
of accused Andreas paternity of the baby, his own grandson
child at this time. In return of this accusation, andre

(23:35):
started demanding child support from Lawrence and forbade Lawrence and
Victoria from marrying because yes, in those days in Germany,
a parent could do that, especially if there's property involved.
And uh I also found out that the town council
had to approve the marriage too, So what do you
think about that?

Speaker 1 (23:56):
Well, and this is a very different kind of game,
but it's most it's kind of close. We'll see, we'll
see what kind of the weddings go. It's never a
good time, well you guys. Little baby Joseph was born
in nineteen nineteen, and Andreas kept pushing Lorenz for child

(24:18):
support as well as for Lorenz to accept paternity, and
the Lorenz was like, nope, not unless Victoria was allowed
to marry him. Okay, I guess. But also I didn't
even know that, like child support was even a thing
at this time in history. I found that to be

(24:39):
very interesting.

Speaker 2 (24:42):
Yeah, and it's probably wasn't called child support, right, it
is the same thing. Yeah, And so I found it
weird too. I was like, well, okay, I don't know,
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (24:57):
That this kind of seems like it could be a
Moury episode.

Speaker 2 (25:01):
Yeah, and the DNA just says, you.

Speaker 1 (25:08):
Are I hope it's Lorenza's.

Speaker 2 (25:11):
Yeah. Little baby Joseph was born in nineteen nineteen, and
oh did you I'm sorry, You're right, I'm sorry, I
forgot the colors confused. Later that year, Lawrence had had
enough of Andre's nagging and went to the authorities about

(25:32):
little Joseph and told him that Andreas was the father. Now,
remember Andreas started being convicted of this crime before so
Andres was again arrested, but this time Victoria wasn't. I
guess they didn't want to do children on welfare, right,
you know, Andreas was in prison for about two weeks,
but was released when suddenly Lawrence retracted his statement.

Speaker 1 (25:58):
It turns out the groupers offered Lorenz two thousand marks,
which was about like sixty dollars in nineteen nineteen, which
is a lot of money. Okay, it is for nineteen nineteen.
At this time, this modest sum could be buy a
tailored suit or two, a bicycle, or even a modest

(26:19):
used motorbike because those were very popular during this time.

Speaker 2 (26:23):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (26:24):
But Andreas then okay. Andrea's then demanded eighteen hundred marks
be returned back to him for a lump sum child
support payment and requested that Lorenz sign over paternity and
make Andreas the legal guardian of Joseph.

Speaker 2 (26:47):
Well, what I know what they I have whiplash from
these people. Oh my gosh, I mean I just do
just like well, I mean, it's like then I thought
Andre's wanted Lawrence to take responsibility, and now he's wanting
him not to.

Speaker 1 (27:05):
And but if andre is oh to make him a
legal legal guardian, not necessarily the father, but like I
would think you wouldn't want to put your name on
that birth certificate when people keep saying, hey, he's banging
his daughter, you know, like.

Speaker 2 (27:20):
I think legally that uh she put Lawrence down as
the father.

Speaker 1 (27:26):
Yes, that is correct.

Speaker 2 (27:27):
He had he had to sign over his guardianship. I
guess that's what you were saying, but it was I'm trying.
It's just so weird because and I wonder if it
has something to do with the farm. If Lawrence was
the father of the heir to the farm or one

(27:48):
of the you know, heirs to the farm, maybe that
changed his mind and he didn't want to be able
to for Lawrence to get more of his farm. I
don't know, could be, I don't know. So he grew.
Lawrence agreed, he said, I've had enough you people, and
he returned eighteen hundred marks, and then he gave the

(28:09):
Groovers back the final two hundred marks because he said,
if this noise, I don't want anything to do with
this money at all. So somehow Lauren's going to be
a Gray's convinced Lawrence, who seemed to have the upper
hand in the situation, to give up everything he had gained.
But in time the men seemed to lose some of

(28:30):
hostility toward each other and were able to be civil
and converse. His neighbors. Eventually, Lawrence did marry a twenty
nine year old widow named Anna Dick. Again the whiplash
from these people Another Victoria.

Speaker 3 (28:45):
No, okay, it's a new name, right Ooh, I knew
she might be Lauren.

Speaker 1 (28:55):
In spring nineteen twenty one, Cresence Raiger have been made
at the time went to the barn to find Andreas
to help her with a rain barrel, but she found
more than she was looking for. Presence found Andreas and

(29:16):
Victoria engaged in a sex act. Growth Crimsons ran off,
but not before she caught Victoria's eye, and this meant
Crimson Crimsons knew that Victoria knew that Crimsons knew the

(29:36):
dirty little gruber open secret rumor to be a fact.

Speaker 2 (29:44):
Well later, yeah, that's crazy, and so I mean everybody
knew it, but I guess nobody knew it knew it,
So now there's people who know it. It's not just
it's been witnessed, it's not just been talked about. But
Victoria later approach presents and told her both made that
if she'd know the maid was walking into the barn,

(30:07):
she Victoria would not have given in to her father's advances.
If she had known someone walking on them. That's when
she was not given in. I don't know what the yeah,
I don't understand this, dollars. That's the only reason. Because
somebody's coming. I gotta say no.

Speaker 1 (30:24):
Now, we don't know that, we know that, we know
they know.

Speaker 2 (30:29):
I know, I mean Cresins. Rager left the formula long
after this, which left the Gruvers without a living maid
for six months or so.

Speaker 1 (30:43):
Okay, so now that we have covered some of the
people and the really fucked up relationship dynamics, let's get
into what happened before, during, and after March thirty first,
nineteen twenty two, because it's been reported that there were

(31:06):
several strange occurrences in the days leading up to the massacre.
It it's gonna get real spooky.

Speaker 2 (31:15):
Yeah, yeah, this is where it gets spooky. Andreas found
a strange new pet newspaper from Munich on the property
at some point in that month of March. He couldnot
remember buying it because he normally didn't, and he initially
believed the postman had just lost a newspaper, but this
was not the case because no one on the surrounding

(31:35):
farm subscribed to the paper, and the carrier denied the delivery,
so he didn't accident the draw it at the wrong.

Speaker 1 (31:41):
Farm, right kind the weird. Victoria had also told friends
that she had recently seen a man dressed in army
gear standing in front of the trees that were a
distance away from the house, and when she approached him
to see what he wanted, he fled into the woods,

(32:04):
which I think is a very important clue from my theory.

Speaker 2 (32:08):
I think you're right, And this is the part that
makes me think of the others that movie.

Speaker 1 (32:13):
Right, So interesting thing is that all of the family
members had noticed keys were going missing in the house.

Speaker 3 (32:26):
Sorry.

Speaker 2 (32:27):
Yeah. And then on Wednesday, March twenty nine, things started
getting weirder. This is just two days before the murders.
Andreas told his neighbors, and remember this is not like
a neighborhood, these are all farmers. Yeah, that he discovered
tracks in the fresh snow that led from the forest

(32:48):
Todma to Adore with a broken lock that led into
the family's machine room. But there weren't any tracks leading
away from the machine room, just going to it, not
somebody leaving no tracks back out. And he found that

(33:09):
to be confusing and a bit unnerving, so he's He
spoke to some of his neighbors that day, but none
of them reported seeing anything or anyone suspicious.

Speaker 1 (33:22):
Hmmm, I'm already creeved out. Andreas refused offers of help
because of course he did, including a gun from Lorenz
Shittling Bouer, who had offered it to him for protection,
and the details went unreported to the police. I think

(33:43):
it's weird that he was asked that he was going
to give the guy a gun, but we'll get into
that later. One of the neighbors reminded Andreas exactly why
Presence Raiger, the family's previous maid, had quit six months prior,
because she thought the help was haunted. I don't think
it was the only reason she left, but it may

(34:05):
have been her public answer for why she left. You know,
she did just see that stuff in the barn, That's
probably the big reason. Yeah, but no, she was freaked
out about this place.

Speaker 2 (34:18):
Yeah, she really was. And in this small town like Kathe,
everyone knew that Christis was deathly afraid of the house,
claiming that she would offer her footsteps in the attic
even though she knew all of them numbers were already asleep.
In their rooms.

Speaker 1 (34:37):
Hmm, like creepy good. I don't like them. No, though
Andreas brushed her off as Eurotic. Seven year old little
Cecilia may have been inclined to agree that the house
was haunted because she would often fall asleep in school
after being kept awake all night by her mother Victoria.

Speaker 2 (35:01):
So after finding the footprints in the snow during the
morning later that evening or that not everyone in the
house heard footsteps coming from the attic, but Andrea's found
no one when he searched the building the next morning
after sunrise. And I don't blame him for waiting until

(35:22):
the sun came in rebattic.

Speaker 1 (35:27):
It tell you well. The next day, Thursday, March thirtieth,
Andreas and Victoria went to town to do some shopping,
and Andreas he went to the hardware store and he
told the shopkeeper about all the recent strange occurrences that
was going on. They probably thought he's freaking crazy. And

(35:48):
Andreas had even told him that when he returned home
after talking to the neighbors, that he had found two
of his cows out of their pen, which is suspicious.
Victoria told other shopkeepers about the noises in the attic,
as well, and they all said she was clearly rattled
from this, like they were telling everybody spun some weird's happening.

Speaker 2 (36:14):
So that means, at least right now we know they
had creepy noises in their attic the night before or
two yeah, two days the other day before, okay, and
so on March thirty first, which is the day of
the merse, although they didn't happen ntil that night, a
school friend of Little Cecilia's said that Little Cecilia had

(36:35):
told her that Victoria had fled the farm the previous
night after a fine quarrel, and only hours later they
found her in the forest. What that was about exactly,
we don't know. It just seems like another disturbing, normal
day at the room warm. But I wouldn't run out

(36:55):
in those woods because it looks creepy.

Speaker 1 (36:58):
So the same day, a new maid, Maria Bougardner, arrived
at the farm in the afternoon. She had been hired
after Andreas decided he couldn't handle the maintenance of both
the farm and Victoria, who appeared to have severe emotional problems.

(37:19):
You don't say, what a surprise I couldn't be because
of you, Andreas you sick mofo.

Speaker 2 (37:26):
He just knows, like, yeah, no wonder breakflags everywhere there.
Marie was forty four and she had never married nor
had any children, and had been a maid most of
her adult life. Maria's sister, Francisca, had a esquorter there
to the farm and left the farm after about an
hour or two helping Maria settled in, and as Francisca

(37:51):
walked the path from the house, Maria ran after her
gave her a big hug. Francisca said, Maria had seen
uncomfortable and so you promised to visit the farm the
next day. Francancio was most likely the last person to
see anyone on the hintercoffec form alive other than the perpetrator.

(38:16):
Maybe we don't know. Maria Vaumgartner had worked for only
a few hours before the murders.

Speaker 1 (38:24):
You imagine. It appears that sometime in the late evening, Victoria,
little Cecilia, and her parents Andre and Cecilia were lured
to the family barn through the stable, where they were
murdered seemingly one at a time. The perpetrator used a

(38:47):
mattic belonging to the family and killed them with blows
to the head. The perpetrators then moved into the living
quarters and using the same murder up and they killed
little baby Joseph sleeping in his boats and nuts, and
the maid Maria in her bedchamber. The bodies, however, would

(39:11):
not be found for four days. That is weapon is horrifying.

Speaker 2 (39:18):
I know, I was looking at that. That's one wicked
living weapon, isn't it.

Speaker 1 (39:24):
Yikes.

Speaker 2 (39:25):
Yeah, Well, little Cecilia had attended a primary school that
was in session for six days a week, So tell
your children they're lucky they only go five, right, with
only Sunday off. The girl didn't show up for class
on Saturday, which would have been April first, and this
was a bit unusual for her. However, everyone knew of
the issues with Victoria and thought that there may be

(39:47):
just some family problems, so they didn't think it was
worth worrying about her being absence.

Speaker 1 (39:55):
Yeah, coffee sellers Hans and Eduard Schrubowski arrived at hinter
Kaifek to take an order at some point on Saturday morning.
When no one responded to the knocks on the door
and the window, they walked around the yard but found
no one, and they noticed that the gate to the

(40:16):
machine house was open. However, they opted to leave. And
you know what I thought about when I was doing
this the other day, when I was putting this together,
I was like, Oh wow, they had the coffee, because
I'm out of coffee. Actually, I got to grind a
bunch of coffee up tonight tonight because I ran anyway, buddy.
I was like, oh wow, they bought coffee to their door.

Speaker 2 (40:38):
The coffee guy came door to door, and.

Speaker 1 (40:40):
I was like, oh man, girl, you got Amazon, Like
it's the car. What are you even saying right now?
But which I never used those things ever, I know,
just like.

Speaker 2 (40:51):
You know, I can remember the milkman. I was real little,
but I can remember that. And so I never had
a coffee man before. That's pretty cool. Well, after they
left the farm, they next went to Lauren Schlintenbauer's farm.
This is the one this closes, is about zero point
three miles away. He wasn't home, but they left a

(41:11):
message regarding the empty hintrag ephic form with his wife, Anna,
who failed to give him the message until much later.

Speaker 1 (41:20):
Yeah, And for those of you that can't see the
visual very closely, or maybe you're watching on a phone
or something. Down in the left hand corner is like
a red lettering that says Gruber gabriel where the lovely
a miss a circle in it. That is where the
farm is. And then all those other words at the
top is where everyone else lives. So it's quite a distance,

(41:42):
you know, nineteen twenty two, so so if it's far.
But anyway, so Sunday came and the Groo Gabrielle family
did not attend church, which was also very rare considering
Victoria was a member of the choir, and the other
members of the choir expressed surprise, but no one thought

(42:02):
there was a real problem that needed to be investigated.
Which there's like twelve people in this town, so like,
I don't know why people aren't concerned, But okay.

Speaker 2 (42:13):
It's well, and it was probably the only church, so.

Speaker 1 (42:15):
That's what I get.

Speaker 2 (42:16):
Yeah, everybody went to the one church they.

Speaker 1 (42:18):
Had, which was also probably the schoolhouse.

Speaker 2 (42:21):
Probably okay, probably why build a different building, there's no need.
We'll uh, let's see, okay on Monday. This will be
the next day. April third, the postman Joseph Meyer left
the normal newspaper and noticed that the kitchen door was
left ajar, but he thought I family member just stepped

(42:45):
out and didn't shut the door all the way it happens.
So he went on his way, and again little Cecilia
fell to attend school, where her absence was noted, but
it still wasn't particularly concerning to the.

Speaker 1 (42:56):
Teacher then and stops by the house because apparently these
pew are always stopping everywhere in this story. Yeah, anyway.
A local mechanic, Albert Hoffner, went to hender Kaifek on
Tuesday for a scheduled appointment to repair an injured He
stated that he had not seen any of the family

(43:17):
and had heard nothing but the sounds of the farm
animals and the dog locked inside the stable, and after
waiting for an hour, he decided to start his repairs,
and he completed these in about four four and a
half hours and then just left.

Speaker 2 (43:37):
When he finished the repairing the machine, he doesn't have.

Speaker 1 (43:43):
Really good cheekbones his one.

Speaker 2 (43:45):
Yes, and look at that hair.

Speaker 1 (43:47):
Yeah, he's got a good set of hair. He had
hair there.

Speaker 2 (43:52):
Now. When he finished, Hawker noticed the dog was no
longer in the barn, but tied up in front of
the house.

Speaker 1 (43:58):
Hmmm, that's weird. Mm.

Speaker 2 (44:00):
Hmm, I got fluffy because dogs bark. My neighbor had
won they bark. The dog was barking and acting scared,
which was not normal for this dog. Because Hawker knew
the dog well, he also knows that the dog had
a gash over one eye.

Speaker 1 (44:20):
He began to look around and he noticed that the
barn door was wide open, which he didn't think to
be the case when he arrived. But he didn't want
to go back there, which I don't blame him, and
instead he knocked on the door of the house, thinking
he and the homeowners had just missed each other, and
he tried the door, but it was locked. So Hoffner

(44:44):
then just like left without further investigation, but he decided
to tell Lorenz Shitlumbauer, who lived down the street. I'm
guessing that's probably like on his way back into town,
but okay.

Speaker 2 (44:56):
Probably, I don't know eitherbody could have been So around
three point thirty, Lauren said his son Johann who is sixteen,
and his step son another Joseph, to hinterric Eifect to
see whether they could make contact with the family. When
they were reported they not seen anyone. Laurence headed to

(45:18):
the farm that afternoon with some neighbors Michael Pole and
Jacob Siegel.

Speaker 1 (45:26):
Upon entering the barn, they found the bodies of Audres Gruper,
his wife Cecilia Cruper, his daughter Victoria, and granddaughter Little Cecilia,
and soon after they found the chambermaid Maria Baumgardner him
the youngest family member, little Joseph, All murdered in the home.

Speaker 2 (45:50):
Hm, that is the actual made room. No, that's the baby.
That's the best inmen.

Speaker 1 (45:57):
Think, Yeah, I think that's the Victoria's ma'am.

Speaker 2 (46:00):
No, I don't know. There were some color ones too,
colorized ones that showed up better. Yeah, but anyway, all
of them showed signs of massive head trauma and their
skulls and faces were crushed. The older Cecilia showed strangulation
marks on her neck, and poor little Cecilia had ripped

(46:23):
her hair out of her head, suspected have happened as
she lay in agony for several hours before her death.

Speaker 1 (46:31):
When he first entered the barn ahead of his two neighbors,
Lorenz pulled Little Cecilia across the barn and propped her
in a sitting position against the wall. The neighbors walked
in then and told him to stop because it was
a crime scene. I didn't know if they had crime
scene etiquet during these times, but I guess so.

Speaker 2 (46:53):
Don't patch the bodies, man, you.

Speaker 1 (46:55):
Know, Inspector Georg Ryan and grew I'm look at me
and doing look at that facial hair I know was
blocking that man. Anyway, this guy and his department were
charged with the investigation. The investigations took place, at least initially,
under difficult conditions, which had several causes.

Speaker 2 (47:20):
Well, Hendri Kaife was far away from the Munich police headquarters,
and there were and there the forces of the police
were being they were tied up with all kinds of
political assassinations that were going on. It was, after all,
deal war time in Germany. The lead investigaar gettered gay
Or Ryan Gruber was only able to stay in person

(47:44):
on the site for just a few hours, and then
he controlled the investigations for Munich with the only means
he had disposed left that time, which would be a
telegraph probably crappy telephone calls and the mail.

Speaker 1 (47:57):
Yeah, no Internet, I'm not gonna solve crap, Yeah, not
at all. Well, the initial investigation was also hampered by
the contamination of the crime scene by neighbors such as Lorenz,
who moved bodies and items. Good job, Lorens. Some even

(48:20):
cooked and ate meals in the kitchen. There was also
an undefined period of time that day of hours between
the discovery of the bodies and contacting the authorities, so
it was kind of just ft.

Speaker 2 (48:38):
They just it must have been a thing to walk
around the houses of murdered people before you called the cops,
because it seemed like the whole town did. The day
after the discovery, court physician Johann Baptiste a'muller performed the
off tops. She's out in the open in the barn,

(48:58):
open air. Oh, sterilization, I guess didn't matter back then,
related to know, it did, and it was established that
a mac was the most likely murdered weapon, although the
weapon itself was not found at the scene where they
found the bodies, despite the use of search dogs.

Speaker 1 (49:19):
Well. Little Cecilia, just seven years old, was found with
severe head injuries that left her skull smashed and her
neck gaping open. She was gripping a clump of her
own hair in her right hand that she had torn
out of her head. Some speculate this was from being

(49:41):
in pain, while others think it's possible she did this
as a witness to seeing her elders murdered. The court
physician speculated that the young girl may have survived if
she had been found sooner, which means she probably died
slowly and painfully. I just want to say, how did

(50:01):
they expect her to survive all this in nineteen twenty two?

Speaker 2 (50:05):
I wondered that too, But I think maybe he's said
that because he could tell that she led out or something.
You know what I'm saying. If you look at the
injury on her skull and her jaw, I don't know
what kind of condition she would have been if she
did survive, Yeah, because that would have been a massive
brain injury. Oh yeah, yeah, Okay, she seemed to have

(50:30):
gotten the worst injuries. Do you feel like that too?

Speaker 1 (50:33):
I do feel that way.

Speaker 2 (50:34):
Yeah, And that's kind of creepy to me too.

Speaker 1 (50:36):
And she's only seven.

Speaker 2 (50:38):
Yeah. Well, now we'll go to Cecilia Gruber or.

Speaker 1 (50:44):
I'll just say maybe it seemed more severe because her
skull is smaller. It could have maybe the power and
the force that was used it was different. Yeah, because
she was a child. Maybe I don't know.

Speaker 2 (50:56):
I don't know either. It just looks bad, but this
one doesn't looking better.

Speaker 1 (51:01):
They're also horrible.

Speaker 2 (51:03):
Cecilia grew he was seventy two years old when she died.
She was strangled, her skull was cracked through to seven
blows to the head. And then Victoria, she was thirty five.
She was also strangled. They were the only who that
had stranglation marks, smashed skull and star shaped wounds left

(51:23):
on her head.

Speaker 1 (51:26):
It's interesting that it was the two females that were stranger.
You think they were assaulted too.

Speaker 2 (51:32):
I didn't. I don't know. Did they look for that
back then?

Speaker 1 (51:36):
It probably not.

Speaker 2 (51:37):
Maybe it didn't matter if she was dead. I'm probably
at this point from their thinking. You know what I'm saying, Well, they.

Speaker 1 (51:42):
Were INVESTIGATID from Munich, so I know, I know they
didn't need didn't even bother.

Speaker 2 (51:48):
Well it was four days too, could they you know?

Speaker 1 (51:51):
Yeah? I don't know.

Speaker 2 (51:52):
There was no DNA. How would they know. Maybe.

Speaker 1 (51:53):
I just think it's weird that they got close contact
with the two females to be able to do that,
but then do that to their head. That seems why
the overkilled for those two. That's interesting, but anyway, I'm sorry,
I don't know it.

Speaker 2 (52:06):
Is the whole Yeah, it's like if this had happened now.
I don't want to say you want to happen, but
it's like there's so much that they couldn't do back
then that they can do now.

Speaker 1 (52:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (52:17):
You know, then Maria Baumgardner was forty four years old
when she was killed. She was killed with by blows
to the head with a sharp, whole lot object, so
it could still be the mats with the other end
if it was stabby. Joseph was two and his face

(52:39):
was smashed in and he was asleep in his bass nets.
Would have had a cover, and the force came down
through that bassinet cover, so I mean it broke it
to hit him. They had to break it. So yeah,
that was like bad too. And then Andres Gruber sixty three,

(53:00):
the right side of his face was smashed and stripped,
stripped of the flesh in the process, revealing the cheekbone.
His wound doesn't look as bad as the others.

Speaker 1 (53:11):
No, but I wonder like, was he the first or
the last? You know, maybe they didn't. I'm gonna go
with he was probably the first because he was too.

Speaker 2 (53:21):
And maybe they thought they just tried to stun him
and ended up killing him by luck or something. I
don't know.

Speaker 1 (53:26):
Yeah, he's old. He's old, right, like sixty Yeah, well.

Speaker 2 (53:28):
See that's the thing the mother cecilia.

Speaker 1 (53:31):
I mean, not that that's old, but.

Speaker 2 (53:34):
Yeah, hey, I'm sixty three, watch it right, So it's old.

Speaker 1 (53:42):
Anyway, The skulls of the victims were removed and sent
to Munich for further examination. However, the skull's leader went
missing during the bombings during World War Two. So no,
that's great, very great. So first, suspecting the motive to
be robbery, the police interrogated traveling craftsmen, vagrants, and several inhabitants,

(54:08):
inhabited inhabitants. What was inhabitants I know, words from the
surrounding villages, But they abandoned this theory when a large
amount of money was found in the house.

Speaker 2 (54:26):
M I just have thought maybe if those schools had
survived until later, which we'll get to, you know, with
the police academy, that might have made a difference with them.
You know, maybe, I don't know. Maybe it was clear
that the perpetrators had remained at the farm for several days.

(54:48):
Someone had fed the cattle, consume the entire bread supply
from the kitchen. It had recently cut meat from the pantry,
but with and there was no clear motive to be
gleaned from the crime scene, and so the police began
to formulate a list of suspects. They had over one
hundred suspects and repeated rests over the years, a high reward,

(55:13):
and they even consulted fortune tellers, but no murder has
ever been found. The case was closed in nineteen fifty five,
but there were final interrogations up to and including in
nineteen eighty six. Nineteen eighty six, mm hmm, that's crazy. Yeah,
No would they talk to in nineteen eighty six, seventy

(55:35):
years later?

Speaker 1 (55:37):
Right? Who are they? I don't know, some neighbors. I
don't know how I think the whole hundred suspects is
literally everyone that lives in Kaifek.

Speaker 2 (55:43):
But okay, I think so.

Speaker 1 (55:47):
Yeah. So the Groovers had no recent enemies that could
serve as obvious suspects, and we combined this with their
former needs, fear of the homestead being haunted, and a
lot of people then and now, well this part, I'll
take my hand down for this one because I should

(56:08):
have finished because I was like that. But then and
now people were inclined to think that the hens are
Kaifak murders were paranormal in nature.

Speaker 2 (56:18):
So I'm not on that. Uh, I'm not on that
plane on that bus.

Speaker 1 (56:22):
Right, I don't think so, not in this circumstance.

Speaker 2 (56:24):
If you look at that picture, I don't know how
well they can see it. But the house is the
probably what is that four rooms and all away in
the kitchen down on the on the left. All the
rest of that is the stable, and in the bar
and whatever. It's all under one roof, and there is
a The attic runs the entire length of that. Yeah,

(56:48):
and used it for storage of grain and hay and whatever.

Speaker 1 (56:53):
Yeah, it was very interconnected.

Speaker 2 (56:55):
Yeah, it is creepy. There was of the lord, but
nothing stuck except this. The crime was committed by someone
who knew how to run a farm, was forbuning with livestock,
was comfortable enough to stay at the farm after the
murders in the company of the family dog, was strong

(57:17):
enough to wield domatic so many times, did not care
for money, and most of what we had a personal
reason for this crime.

Speaker 1 (57:28):
I'm only gonna put this.

Speaker 3 (57:30):
Well.

Speaker 2 (57:30):
See I'm thinking thinking personal might not be personal. It
might be just personal to them, you know what I'm saying.
It might not be a relationship thing. It might have
been they had their own personal reason for doing it.
That may not have been because I don't like this person.
It may it well, which we'll get to.

Speaker 1 (57:51):
That well. During the investigation, police heard about all about
scandalous thirty laundry about the groups that's their related over
the previous years, and the scandal only grew after neighbors
noticed that Andreas was extremely jealous with regard to Victoria,

(58:12):
often forbidding her from leaving home aside from when she
would go to church, and he had also forbidden her
from remarrying. So could that be a motive for someone?
Maybe maybe maybe.

Speaker 2 (58:27):
Early on, it was thought that the victims were probably
drawn at the barn by restlesss with the in the stable,
which because of animal noises from the animals, But this
theory was probably not plausible because investigators discovered that the
noise from the barn could not be heard in.

Speaker 1 (58:44):
The house, which I think is weird.

Speaker 2 (58:47):
Because they're connected.

Speaker 1 (58:48):
They're connected. It's not like these were soundproof walls or
it's nineteen twenty two.

Speaker 2 (58:53):
But what if they were made of like mud or something.

Speaker 1 (58:56):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (58:56):
Okay, I don't know either. I mean, I'm like you,
I was like, really they got cat it like you
hear ever move there was out there.

Speaker 1 (59:04):
It's not that far now, That's what I would think,
but I guess not anyway. So on the night after
the crime, three days yes, On the night after the crime,
three days before the bodies were discovered to be the
first April First artists in michel Plocool happened to pass

(59:25):
by hinter Chaifect as usual on his way home from work.
He observed that the oven had been heated by someone,
and that person had approached him with a lantern, which
blinded him, so he quickly continued on his way. Clocal
also noticed that the smoke from the fireplace had a
revolting smell, and there was no follow up to this incident,

(59:50):
and no investigation was conducted to determine what had been
burned that night in the oven. I don't know what
A cold man maybe, I guess that could be a
bad smile.

Speaker 2 (01:00:04):
I don't know. At three am on April first, a
local farmer and butcher Simon Rosslander, on his way home
near Brunen, saw two mysterious figures at the edge of
the forest. So this would be him going not necessarily
right by the house for the farm, but somewhere close by.

(01:00:26):
And when the strangers saw him, they turned so that
he couldn't see their faces, so their faces can be seen.
And later when he heard the murders in hinder Kaifek,
he thought it possible that these strangers might be involved
because they were in the area of the woods.

Speaker 1 (01:00:42):
Well in mid May nineteen twenty seven, about five years later,
a stranger was said to have stopped a residence of
Widenhoffen at midnight, asked him questions about the murder, before
shouting that he was the murderer, and then went running
into the woods. But this stranger was never ident I

(01:01:05):
think it was probably just some crazy person. So let's
really get into though, what we're all here for at
this point. Some the suspects and the theory is because, sir,
some of you are like, I have some theories.

Speaker 2 (01:01:22):
Yeah, everybody should have a few right now.

Speaker 1 (01:01:25):
All right, let's dive into a couple of weeks.

Speaker 2 (01:01:27):
Okay. One of the more popular suspects is helpful neighbor,
Laurence Schlittenbauer. He was the one who found the bodies,
and he seemsis authorities discovered the Laurens Victoria Andre's relationship

(01:01:47):
and became suspicious of the neighbor. And he also had
some interesting actions immediately after discovering the bodies.

Speaker 1 (01:01:55):
Well, when he and his neighbors arrived to investigate, they
had to break a gate to enter the barn because
all of the doors were locked. However, immediately after finding
the four bodies in the barn, Lorenz apparently unlocked the
front door of the house with a key and suspiciously

(01:02:17):
entered the house alone.

Speaker 2 (01:02:20):
So and yeah, well that doesn't look so good for Lawrence.
As mentioned previously, keys had gone missing a few days
before the murders. But it also that Lawrence, as a
neighbor or as Victoria's potential lover, might have been given
a key.

Speaker 1 (01:02:38):
Yeah, I mean, Lorenz already having keys to the place
doesn't really surprise me, no at all.

Speaker 2 (01:02:42):
Doesn't mean either that that seems like something you would do,
especially if you need somebody, you have to go to
town and you somebody look at your livestock or something. Whatever.

Speaker 1 (01:02:52):
They known each other for years.

Speaker 2 (01:02:53):
Yeah. When asked by his companions why had gone into
the house alone when it was unclear where the murder
must still be there, Wren's allegedly stated that he went
to look for his son, Joseph. It was known that
Lorenz disturbed the bodies at the scene, thus he contentionally

(01:03:16):
potentially I can't say that word, potentially compromised investigation.

Speaker 1 (01:03:21):
Yeah. The Munich police department figured that Lorenz was the
suspect for the hinter Kaithak murders because he had the
easiest access to the groups and a strong possible motive,
especially compared to some of the other suspects they considered,
which okay, but like, what would be his motive to

(01:03:42):
kill everyone, including his own son? Like, it just doesn't
He's remarried. It doesn't make any sense to me.

Speaker 3 (01:03:48):
What motive he could possibly have had to Yeah, I mean,
and he signed over a guardianship, so it wasn't like
he was expected to provide for the boy, which he
might have happened to Andre's.

Speaker 2 (01:04:01):
But you know, at this point in time, he didn't
have that concern. I don't either. Strange For many years after,
local suspicion remained on Lawrence because of his strange comments,
which were seen as indicating knowledge or details that only
the killer would recall. For example, according to information in

(01:04:24):
the official file for this case, local teacher Hans E.
Blogger discovered Laurence vis ruins of the demolished hinterri Kaifek
in nineteen twenty five. Laurence stated that the perpetrator's attempt
to bury the deceased remains in the barn had been
hindered by the frozen ground.

Speaker 1 (01:04:45):
This was seen as evidence that Lorenz had intimate knowledge
of the conditions of the ground at the time of
the murders.

Speaker 2 (01:04:57):
How would he know that?

Speaker 1 (01:04:59):
How would he? No, that is so suspicious. However, he
was a neighbor and familiar with the local land, so
he may have been making an educated guess. And I'm
sorry that is the most outlandish reason someone seems suspicious. Ever,
Like when you live in the sort of environment where

(01:05:19):
the ground freezes, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to
know that like at all. But was it smelling?

Speaker 2 (01:05:27):
You know what it might have been?

Speaker 1 (01:05:31):
How's hard was the frozen guard ground in winter? He
was an experienced farmer and listen, it literally just said
that he was suspicious because he visited the room ruined, like.

Speaker 2 (01:05:45):
He probably walked by it every day.

Speaker 1 (01:05:48):
His maybe son was killed. He did know these people,
and also he was like, hey, look it looks like
somebody tried to dig holes for bodies, but the ground
was too frozen.

Speaker 2 (01:05:59):
Not like it's not frozen over at my farm on
March thirty first in Bavaria, Germany.

Speaker 1 (01:06:07):
You know, yeah, I'm sorry, but not.

Speaker 2 (01:06:14):
Another speculation was that Laurence murdered the family after Victoria
demanded financial support for young Joseph. I don't think that's
I don't I don't see that as behind. I saw
no facts of that. No, No, that's just speculation, and
he'd already signed over. They couldn't make him pay anything,
I don't think at that time. Before his death in

(01:06:37):
nineteen forty one, Lawrence conducted I Love that word and
won several civil claims for slander against different people who
described him as the murderer of Hendrik Kifek.

Speaker 1 (01:06:50):
So yeah, you're winning those civil lawsuits. I know, not
something you know. I don't know Lorenz being the killer.
It's just doesn't make much sense to me, you know,
noe are the reasons that people find him suspicious. I'm
gonna need more. I'm gonna need a lot more for

(01:07:10):
it to be him. So that's that's where he is
on my list. He is not high, He's like, no, yeah,
he really is. I mean I didn't say anything that
maybe be like nothing is There're all seen reasonable things
for somebody who that's down the street from you, that
you've known for years, who's also a farmer. But anyway, okay,
who's next on our list of suspects Here.

Speaker 2 (01:07:31):
Next center suspect lineup is Carl Gabriel. Remember him? Yes,
he was married to Victoria for a few short months
and then left her and signed up to go fight
in World War One. Well, he had reportedly been killed
in December nineteen fourteen by shell attack in Aris, France,

(01:07:51):
early in World War One, but his body was never recovered.
M he's illless, I'm kidding. After the murders, people being
a speculate about whether he had, in fact or not
in the war.

Speaker 1 (01:08:05):
So yeah. After the end of World War two were
captives from Schrobenhausen region of Bavaria who had been released
prematurely from Soviet captivity. Stated that they had been sent
home by a German speaking Soviet officer who claimed to
be the hinter Chifact murderer. However, some of the men

(01:08:31):
later revised their statements, which diminish their credibility.

Speaker 2 (01:08:37):
It would yeah, some theorized that the Soviet officer in
question might have actually been Carl Gabriel, because those who
claimed have seen Gabriel after his reported death testify that
he had wanted to go to Russia. However, when investigators
spoke to a few soldiers who said they had actually

(01:08:57):
seen Karl's dead body, they stop pursuing the matter.

Speaker 1 (01:09:03):
I mean, I suppose one we could have a war
ghost in the story. It makes sense, but I mean, yeah, okay,
maybe he could have wanted to maybe seek revenge on
the family and blame them for him going to war.
But would he kill the children because little Cecilia could
have been his daughter? Remember that? And this is like

(01:09:27):
six years after him and Victoria's marriage. So why then,
you know why? Nineteen twenty two? I don't know, I don't.
I don't think I'm gonna put him on my murder board.
I'm sorry, I'm sorry. World War one ghosts not on
my murder board for this.

Speaker 2 (01:09:42):
I don't think that ghost needs to be on there
either next step are the very interesting Gump brothers.

Speaker 1 (01:09:50):
Mmm, Gump, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:09:55):
Adol Gump.

Speaker 1 (01:09:57):
That's not great.

Speaker 2 (01:09:58):
I'll look at him. He looks so German.

Speaker 1 (01:10:05):
That's true. No, you're you're all correct and that.

Speaker 2 (01:10:07):
Yeah. Adolph Gunp was listed as a suspect as early
as April April ninth, nineteen twenty two, due to his
connection to the Flight Corps. I can't say it's not
bought frob, It's Oberland or translated would be Highland's Free Corps.

Speaker 1 (01:10:28):
Right. So this was a voluntary paramilitary organization that, in
the early years of the Weimar Republic fought against communists
and Polish insurgents, and it was successful in the nineteen
twenty one Battle of Anenburg and became the core of

(01:10:50):
the Sturma tailing in Bavaria, although several members later turned
out turned against the Nazis.

Speaker 2 (01:11:00):
So well, least some had some sense, didn't they.

Speaker 1 (01:11:03):
They turned against them.

Speaker 2 (01:11:04):
I know, That's what I'm saying, those the ones that
turned against them. As a Fly Corps member, Gunp was
said to have participated in the murder of nine farmers
in Upper Silesia during the fight against the nineteen twenty
one polished uprising in the region. He had a warn
for his arrest issued by the district wart of Opel,

(01:11:27):
so was he on the run from authorities.

Speaker 1 (01:11:31):
In nineteen fifty one, several years after this massacre, Prosecutor
Andreas another one I Cambers hey Day Sybet Young Guad
Prosecutor Andreas pop investigated brothers Adolf and Anton Gump in
the hinter Kaifak murders. Their sister Crescentia Mayor claimed on

(01:11:53):
her deathbed that Adolf and Anton had committed the murders.
As a result, in Ton Gump was remanded to police custody,
but Adolf had already died in nineteen forty four, I imagine,
probably because the war. After a short time, however, Anton
was dismissed and in nineteen fifty four the case against

(01:12:15):
him was finally discontinued because he could not be proven
to have participated in the crime. Okay, I will put
these two on the murder board. Okay, they actually as
a matter of fact, I will say Aidolf specifically is
very high on my murder board, and that's because it

(01:12:37):
matches some of the eyewitness statements and you know, such
as Victoria maybe seeing somebody in military here, you know,
somebody that can hide and go unprotected and live off
the grid. Anyway, We'll get into that later, but I
do think that the family was being watched and studied

(01:12:57):
and that this was more than likely a two person jobs,
right though, based on Adolph's history, it could have easily
been just him, it really could. You know, he he
has a history of you know that.

Speaker 2 (01:13:15):
Yeah, and I think, yeah, it's not a reason to
think that he would hide out in the attic. He
would be the kind of he would be more than
willing to do that if he was.

Speaker 1 (01:13:27):
You know, it's still cold, even in the march in Germany,
it's still cold.

Speaker 2 (01:13:33):
I mean, it's probably cold in the attic, but at
least it's shelter and you've got a lot of straw
in it. I don't know, it's supposed to be warm.
I don't know. But anyway, I agree that these two
need to be on your mord board. I understand why
Lorens and even supernatural ghosts, ghost Lawrence or ghost Karl
I'm sorry, uh would have been considered suspects initially right

(01:13:56):
at the beginning, but they make zero sense when you
look below this because neither one of them had anything
to gain from it. It just didn't make sense for them.

Speaker 1 (01:14:05):
No.

Speaker 2 (01:14:06):
Now, this next theory didn't come out for many years.
In nineteen seventy one, That is forty nine years later
for those of you playing the home game and who
don't math that's us. A woman named Therese Schnirtney, Yes

(01:14:26):
it's cluse enough, wrote a letter citing an event in
her youth. At the age of twelve, she witnessed her
mother receiving a visit from the mother of the brothers
Karl and Andres Heather one Frier. So is that name
number five? Ors at six?

Speaker 1 (01:14:46):
It could be like fifteen at this point, I know, couldn't.

Speaker 2 (01:14:50):
The woman claimed her signs from Saddleberg were the two
murders of Kendrick Kaifek. During the overheard conversation, the mother
allegedly said, Rice regranted that he lost his pen knife.

Speaker 1 (01:15:04):
Hmmmm, I do agree. So in fact, you guys, when
the farm was demolished in nineteen twenty three, a pocket
knife that one there was found that could not be
clearly assigned to anyone. However, the knife could have easily
belonged to one of the murder victims or somebody that
worked on the farm at one point in time. It

(01:15:26):
doesn't necessarily mean it belonged to the killer. And this
track was followed without result. Presidence Rager, the former maid
of kinder Kai effect, was certain she had already seen
the penknife in the yard during her service. So that's
the old may had being like, m Nope, Arnie saw it,
not it now? Certainly that is a very interesting theory.

(01:15:49):
You know, for a mother to admit that her sons
or the actual killers would be probably something shocking to overhear,
memorable even but unfortunately the when was twelve at the
time she heard this and didn't say anything about it
for decades. So it's kind of hard for me to
give this very much credits. And you know, I'm not
saying the lady's lying, but memory is are fickle things,

(01:16:14):
especially over decades of time.

Speaker 2 (01:16:20):
From Yeah, she could have had a dream she convinced
herself was real. But perhaps she simply created a false memory,
you know, as we know that can.

Speaker 1 (01:16:30):
Happen, or emerging a bunch of different stories.

Speaker 2 (01:16:33):
Yeah, she knows.

Speaker 1 (01:16:38):
Nice, nice, Oh man, that's officer Devers in case nobody knows, yes, well,
is she former officer Yeah, at this point.

Speaker 2 (01:16:48):
I don't know. She's technically a former she's on sabbatical maybe,
I don't know. Next is Peter Webber, who was named
a suspect by Joseph Bebts. This story's looking to The
two men worked together in the winter of nineteen twenty,
nineteen nineteen and nineteen twenty as laborers together, and they

(01:17:10):
shared a room. According to Betts, Weber spoke at that
time of a remote farm hinterra kaifec Weber knew that
only one old couple lived, they're with their daughter and
her two children. It's also possible that Weber knew about
the incests between Andre's and Victoria, but I don't know
that that would have made a difference motive wise, if

(01:17:33):
there was a motive. But Betts testified in a hearing
that Weber had suggested killing the old man to get
the family's money. When Betts did not respond to the offer,
Weber stopped talking about it.

Speaker 1 (01:17:47):
Yeah, I mean, it's certainly an interesting conversation. But if
the motive was money, nothing of value was reported stolen,
including the cash. So I don't know. I don't know
about that story. I don't mean now Cresentsiger the former
maid remember her worked from November nineteen twenty to about

(01:18:09):
September nineteen twenty one at hinter Kayfek. She suspected the
brothers Anton and Carl Bickler to have committed the murders. Now,
Anton Bickler had helped with the potato harvest at Henter Kayfek. Okay,
and therefore knew the premises. That's interesting, okay, Crescin said.

(01:18:31):
Anton talked to her often about the Gruberg Gabrielle family.
Anton reportedly suggested that the family ought to be dead
because she's never talking about you know, the rumors right now.

Speaker 2 (01:18:48):
The maid also emphasized in her interrogation at the farm
dog who barked at everyone, never barked at Anton. In addition,
she reported speaking with a stranger through her window, not
we're gonna get more in the habit later too. Yes,
the maid believed that it was Carl Bickler, brother of Anton.

(01:19:10):
She thought that Anton and Carl Bickler could have committed
the murder together with it. Gay org Ogel, No, sorry, Sigle,
that looked like a with my glasses. See Sigle, who
had worked at here Kopik and knew of the family fortune.

Speaker 1 (01:19:26):
Now suppose supposedly gay Org Sigel what's his name had
broken into the home in November nineteen twenty, that's when
the maid was still there, and stolen a number of items,
though he denied it. He did know, however, that the
murder weapon when he was working at henter Kaifect and

(01:19:47):
knew that the tool would have been kept in the
barn passage, but he said he didn't make it because
it was like a homemade handsl right. He was like,
I didn't make that. As a matter of fact, it
was Andrea Skruber who carved that handle, and that Andreas
did such a shit job, you would recognize that handle anywhere.

Speaker 2 (01:20:09):
Which is about the shade from an official statement, because
I'm licking.

Speaker 1 (01:20:15):
That that was paraphrase.

Speaker 2 (01:20:18):
I think maybe not, maybe not, I think it was.

Speaker 1 (01:20:24):
All of these names are something they are let's see, okay.
I will say that this theory could be a possibility
that these two brothers, especially coming from the former maid,
hired help. He usually knows everything that's going on, so

(01:20:46):
I do give her a little bit more credit than
I might some others. And Anton's comment about the family
should be dead. Plus they knew the farm very well
that does put them higher on the list from me.
But again, nothing was stolen that we know of, so
what exactly their motivation would have been behind it. I

(01:21:07):
don't know. If it was them, I don't know. But
they're on there again, two people, so.

Speaker 2 (01:21:13):
You're right, two people. They probably would work together. So
far we are flushed with suspects, but the motivations are thin. Yeah,
that's true. The Thaler brothers were also suspected. According to
a statement by again Christens Riger, the brothers had already

(01:21:36):
committed several minor burglaries in the area before the murders occurred.
Rager said that Yosah Thaylor stood at her window at
night and asked her questions about the family. Oh look,
there's all off, there's more on races and josephs Yeah,

(01:21:56):
but she did not answer his questions about the family.
In conversation Yosa's stay, they had a lot of money
and during their conversation, where I go, not that there
was another person nearby. I guess she could see him
over to the side from where through her window. According
to her statement, Joseph, Joseph Stater and the stranger had

(01:22:17):
looked at the machine house and turned their eyes upward,
and I think that means probably a way.

Speaker 1 (01:22:22):
I don't know, why does she keep talking to people
through a window at nights, like, especially when it seems
like she doesn't really know any of them. I also,
I don't know. It's weird to me, It's weird, why
are you doing that? But I guess when you're in
the middle of nowhere, you'll try to talk to whoever
comes by me. But I also, I really don't think

(01:22:45):
that this set of brothers are auspicious, are as suspicious
as they're not even I don't even think they're on
my list? Yeah I murder board. Nope.

Speaker 2 (01:22:55):
Yeah, Well, in my one thing in my research of
the story, most of these houses are like pretty close
to the past, so people would walk by your front
door and it wouldn't be like ten feet away. But
it was also pointing out the area residence is pretty
rural and they didn't have you know, television or even radio,

(01:23:17):
no internet, and so their entertainment was visiting and talking
with each other.

Speaker 1 (01:23:21):
I mean, I checks out.

Speaker 2 (01:23:23):
So maybe present's talking with strangers through her window at night,
wasn't that strange in action for them? Or maybe she's
just a window hole. I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:23:32):
Window A window, A window, all right? So our last
theory for the night Guys is Paul Mueller, Okay. In
his book The Man from the Train, Bill James alleges

(01:23:54):
that a man known as Paul Mueller, a German migrant,
may have been respond before the murders. Mueller was the
only suspect in the Night ab second eighteen ninety eight
murder of a Massachusetts family and James. The author believes
Mueller killed dozens of victims based on research in American

(01:24:18):
newspaper archives.

Speaker 2 (01:24:21):
Mmm, the Intercothek murders. There are some similarities to Mueller
suspect froms in the United States, including the slaughter of
an entire family in their isolated home. You said, Blonai's
farm tools as a weapon, a pickaxe, moving stacking, the

(01:24:42):
bodies of the victims, and the apparent absence of robbery
as a motive.

Speaker 1 (01:24:47):
Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot of similarities.

Speaker 2 (01:24:50):
Were really I know, yeah a lot.

Speaker 1 (01:24:54):
So the author James suspects that Mueller, a German immigrant,
might have departed the US for his homeland by nineteen twelve,
after private investigators and journalists began to notice and publicize
patterns in family murders across state lines, so they're like,
you got the hell on here and probably went back home,

(01:25:15):
which nineteen twelve is a wild time to travel back
to Europe. But okay, yeah, so that must mean you're
running from something to go over there then oh really so.
There is, however, nothing official to support the author's theory,
and while it seems highly unlikely that this was the

(01:25:36):
work of a serial killer who found his way back
to his home country after murdering it dozens of families
in the United States, okay dozens, this theory actually goes
pretty high on my murder board. I would never usually
say that until I've learned more about this book. I

(01:26:00):
wish I could we could get more into depth to
Night about Paul Mueller, because then I went and started
researching him and like, I read the wiki of this book,
which I encourage you all to go read the wiki
of this book Command from the Train and see all
of the very eerie comparisons. I know, I need to
get this book and read it because I'm fascinating. I've

(01:26:21):
never even heard of such a thing.

Speaker 2 (01:26:23):
I'm going to get that book too.

Speaker 1 (01:26:24):
Yeah, and if it's true that Paul Mueller did do
all of these family massacres in the United States. He's
responsible for what they believe to be fifty nine murders,
but they actually think that numbers in the hundreds, which
would make him, as I think, higher than serial killer

(01:26:45):
Samuel Little. He'd be the most notorious serial killer in America.
But that's the only reason why he's high up on
my list is because, yeah, he kind of disappeared. VMO
is pretty much it's the same. And he would have
went to Germany with nothing probably.

Speaker 2 (01:27:05):
And he would probably be somebody that would hide out
a lot too, even if he was in Germany, because
they knew he was from there. I mean, America knew
he was from there.

Speaker 1 (01:27:14):
So yes, so I urge everyone to go deep dive
Paul Miller. I know, I'm going to look more into.

Speaker 2 (01:27:20):
Him a forcire It.

Speaker 1 (01:27:21):
We'll probably cover him in an episode eventually.

Speaker 2 (01:27:24):
I think we should eventually. Yeah, Okay. The police interviewed
in released many suspects without a motive or further leaves
the case dragged on with no resolution. The police finally
close the file in nineteen fifty nine. Although the case
was used as a thought exercise for the police Academy.

Speaker 1 (01:27:44):
Sorry, those are really nice coffins. Look how well crafted
those coffins are.

Speaker 2 (01:27:52):
Well, people might have liven making those by him.

Speaker 1 (01:27:55):
Yeah, I have the interesting shape and I got those
are really craftsmanship. I'm sorry. So in two thousand and seven,
the first Enfeldbrook I hope that was right. Police Academy
reopened the investigation. Fifteen students examined the case using modern

(01:28:16):
criminal investigation techniques. In their final report, they confirmed the
meticulousness of the investigation at the time, but criticized the
lack of professional forensics. It's nine two.

Speaker 2 (01:28:33):
Is this Canton, Massachusetts?

Speaker 1 (01:28:35):
Did they even know to wash their hands for surgery
in nineteen twenty two? I don't think so. I don't
know if that was even a thing then, but okay,
sure in particular, in particular, the failure to take fingerprints
was criticized as this was already common practice at the time,
which I did not know.

Speaker 2 (01:28:56):
I didn't either, I didn't realize it went back that far.

Speaker 1 (01:28:58):
But okay, But also would you have had that many
fingerprint compared like m sure they should have taken them
for I guess now in modern daytime, but like the
investigator was like hours away in Munich. Okay, right, anyway,
They also criticized the lack of crime scene sketches, which
I do agree with. I agree with that because if
he's headed back to Munich, like and where's all the photographs?

(01:29:22):
Clearly they had cameras then well they had We saw
a few, but well, that's true.

Speaker 2 (01:29:27):
We probably didn't see them all. They probably didn't have more.
But sketches also can show a layout like I could
do overhead.

Speaker 1 (01:29:36):
You know, yeah, the bird's ivy. Oh, that's true, so
they have they not have drones.

Speaker 2 (01:29:43):
Back then, however, actual evidence had become lost and witnesses
had passed on, which made it impossible for them to
solve the hinter Gothic murders. Interestingly enough, all all authors
of this report independently. They came to their conclusions on

(01:30:03):
their own, but they all agreed on who the main
suspect was. However, his name was not mentioned out of
considerations for his descendants. I am, yes, this is where,
this is where.

Speaker 1 (01:30:20):
That's that is where it all happened.

Speaker 2 (01:30:24):
That's where.

Speaker 1 (01:30:26):
Our closing thoughts. I just want to say, but this
this whole what we think we know, but we're not
gonna say becausin care about and defendants Like okay, but
like what about the descendants of this family? Yeah, you
know remember Cauzilia the mom had two other children from

(01:30:48):
her previous marriage. Yep, you know. Did they not want
or need answers? And this excuse just really bothers me.
I mean, yes, I am nosy. I'm not gonna lie.

Speaker 2 (01:30:58):
I am no. I know you do.

Speaker 1 (01:31:00):
But is this is this possible that the perpetrator's descendants
are important people in the community or something, you know,
like that they just they don't want their name tarnished
to have the truth out there, because I mean, like,
even if it was, how is this their fault? This
is one hundred years ago? Like I'm sorry, I just

(01:31:20):
I don't feel bad about anything. The people whole you know,
generation before me did I didn't do it, you know, like.

Speaker 2 (01:31:28):
Why we maybe politicians, I mean, you know, a lot
from a local police department and their families grew up
the attorneys or district attorneys or government. I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:31:39):
Yeah that's true. Now, as you guys all see, there
are many possible theories and there's more than what we covered.
There are lots more. And I think for me, the
two that really stick out to me for being the
most realistic and matches a lot of what is known
about the case is Adolf Gump and maybe his brother Anton,

(01:32:07):
followed by the alleged serial killer Paul Mueller. And because
I don't think this was done by amateurs at all,
I do think this had to be probably done by
somebody who had killed previously and felt comfortable doing what
they were doing. And also the brutality inflicted upon the
children leads me to believe that whoever did this had

(01:32:30):
probably killed before and wanting to possibly stay in the
house leads me to believe this is somebody that's in
kind of like a transient lifestyle, somebody that might have
had military experience. And that's where my head is going
on the theories for there now. Why they want to drop
those names, I don't know, but those are my two

(01:32:53):
top contenders for what I think happened to this the family.

Speaker 2 (01:32:58):
I think you're right. I think maybe the person thought
they could stay there for a while because of how
there is, but then people did start coming around, maybe
more than they expected.

Speaker 1 (01:33:10):
Yes, remember they took care of the animals they were cooking.
They knew how to survive too, and as Amy said
they had to practically live among the dead. Well, yes,
you were in World War one or two. Yes, what
you'd sleep in the trenches with the bodies like it's
really disturbing to say, but that's very true. So I

(01:33:34):
could see. I think whoever it was needed a level
of brutality. Those petty burglars we talked of, no.

Speaker 2 (01:33:40):
Way, Yeah, they would have taken the money it was
left behind.

Speaker 1 (01:33:44):
Yeah, And if it was either Adolf Gum or Paul Mueller,
they were both wanted by authorities, So they're going to
try to keep a little profile. They're going to move
from place to place, and that those are my two
high suspects in this case.

Speaker 2 (01:34:03):
I agree with you with regards to Anton Gun and
his brother, Adolf Gum and Anton. The paramilitary organization that
Adolf was a member of was known to sanitize area
of farms during World War One, especially if they were

(01:34:24):
suspected of being subversive to the government, or if they
had if they thought they had a large cash weapons
and they might be involved in with an uprising, which
we don't know, we don't have any indication of that.

Speaker 1 (01:34:36):
But without how war works exactly everywhere and every work
in other.

Speaker 2 (01:34:41):
Acts, erect other stuff that they didn't like what they
were doing that seemed to go against the government, and
so they just take all those And maybe he did
have a gun, get a cachet of weapons, and that's
what they took instead of the money. We don't know that.
I don't. You know.

Speaker 1 (01:34:56):
What's interesting was back then, back while in the beginning
of the story, Lorenz offers Andreas a gun for his protection.
But I don't understand why Andreas needed did he not
have a gun? You're a farmer and you don't have
a gun at all. This doesn't make any sense, any

(01:35:17):
sense to me at all that he wouldn't have had
a gun of some like everyone has a farm had
a gun. You know, this is in nineteen twenty two.
There's like wolves and shit, you know, like they're happening.

Speaker 2 (01:35:29):
And there are vagrants too, especially you know, during wartime
you've got all kinds of people coming around you. I
don't that is kind of funny to me. Also, maybe
he had a gun and that's why he said I
don't need yours, thank.

Speaker 1 (01:35:43):
You, Rell. And I also think that is how one
person could have potentially controlled the whole family, is that
they probably had a firearm as well. No amos, that is,
I think they're they're showering the fields.

Speaker 2 (01:36:00):
Oh oh yeah, I mean the sprinkler that looks like
a ghost. They're taking a picture up back there. I
think I think it was interesting that the perpetrators stayed
on the farm, like, you know, were they on the

(01:36:23):
run where they're trying to hide. I don't believe it
was just a vagrant or a petty criminal either. It
seems to organized to be an amateur who's just trying
to commit a crime, or even if it's necessary, you know,
he's on the run and he needs a place to stay.
But nothing was taken, and there was cash. It's not

(01:36:44):
like it's not like they had paper stuff that would
be hard to use. This money, we had a cash
in that farm. It's all there. We don't know that
it was all there. There was a large sum there.

Speaker 1 (01:36:55):
That's true. So that is true.

Speaker 2 (01:36:59):
And I also believe that the descendants of the group
were deserved know the truth because if authorities really didn't
know who they suspect, And.

Speaker 1 (01:37:08):
Like I know, everybody wants to chalk Victoria as being
a hot mess. And I don't blame the girl, Okay,
I don't. All right, But two things she said is
one she thought she saw somebody in military fatigues out
in the woods. Yeah, all right. And the other was
the night before the murders, she runs into the woods. Yeah,

(01:37:30):
so she's freaking out and they had to bring her back.
What was she freaking out about? Could it have been
she saw this man or men or something. And then
at that point, the perpetrators it was like, all right,
tomorrow's gonna have to be the day.

Speaker 2 (01:37:47):
Like, yeah, I didn't gonna have to do something because
they've seen me or.

Speaker 1 (01:37:49):
She saw yeah whatever, Yeah, like I have to do
what it do what I do or whatever. I don't know.
I feel like whatever happened with Victoria the night before
is very important.

Speaker 2 (01:38:00):
Yeah. Well, the way I read that story from the
Little Girl's report, her Victoria being a hot mess, like
you said, wasn't unknown to the people. But I don't
believe that action was a normal thing that happened.

Speaker 1 (01:38:17):
Just because somebody seems crazy, it doesn't mean everything they
say is crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:38:22):
Gontre paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get you.

Speaker 1 (01:38:24):
That's right, That's right. That's how I feel about Victorian.
This yeah thing, well, you guys are listeners, let us
know in the comments what your theory and possible suspects
you think were responsible for the hinter Kaithek family massacre.
Oh boy, that was a story. That was a story,

(01:38:46):
all right, you guys. Before we go, If you like
what you heard tonight, please be sure to follow all
of our socials and subscribe to our YouTube channel. It's free.
Or if you're listening to our pod, please download and
give us a rating or review whatever it is they
ask you to do, just please do it because again
it's free and all of that helps us tremendously and

(01:39:07):
getting our little channel out there. Now, you guys. Next
week on True Crime and Wine Time, we will be
covering the man who vanished after killing his family, the
John List Nightmare.

Speaker 2 (01:39:20):
Our faces that one of Terry is like perfect, perfect, perfect,
because that's what I was. That was what I had
on my face when I was researching.

Speaker 1 (01:39:33):
Like, yes, the Lovely Lady. If you've enjoyed this the
recession on this show, Lady and Gray is researching the
next case for us as well, and it's greatly But
if you're not familiar with John List, I won't do
too many spoilers, but he murdered his entire family, laid
them out like porcelain dolls, and then disappeared without a trace.

(01:39:58):
It's a good one, you guys, a good story. Not
want to miss miss this one. Now, if you need
more of Terry True Crime and I, you can always
find us doing something on our true crime and one
time YouTube channel. Terry. We'll be doing Midday Missing next
week on Monday and Wednesday, but then she will be
on a break for a few weeks. Now, you guys,
some really good news because I had a very busy month.

(01:40:21):
But couch Court with Lama is back. That's right. Tomorrow
we'll be watching the sentencing of Lori Valo day Bell
tomorrow and at like eleven thirty eastern, Yes, eleven thirty eastern.
I won't be late this time. And then for the
next few weeks we'll be watching the trials of Brooks

(01:40:43):
House and Joseph Lawson as well as Steven Lawson. These
are the people who have been tried in the disappearance
and murder of Crystal Rogers. Their trials have concluded, but
just recently all the videos of the trial have been released,
so we're going to watch them all so we can

(01:41:03):
hear our in their own words and make up our
own decisions on what the verdict should be. So, if
you're unfamiliar with the Crystal Rogers case, I did a
huge deep dive covering everything about her case as well
as other unsolved cases in Bartown, Kentucky. So go to
our Crystopher Rogers playlist to catch up. Now, if you

(01:41:25):
guys having yet, please like this video, subscribe, hit the
notification bell so you don't miss when we go live
or drop an episode. And before we go, I want
to thank the lovely Lady and Gray for being a
fantastic co host tonight. Yes, round, applause everybody for her.
She did great. Everyone let her know that she did
an amazing job in the comments as well. And is

(01:41:48):
there anything you would like to say before we go
or sign off? Share Lady and Gray?

Speaker 2 (01:41:54):
Sorry, yes, okay, First I want to sign em both
eat for helping us with the pronunciations of these German words.
It's true, you guys, I was trying to get them
all online and sometimes that's not always.

Speaker 1 (01:42:12):
Actually, he said, mostly yours were correct. Actually, he said,
good job for her.

Speaker 2 (01:42:19):
But yeah, he but he did get some of those
that I was dread trying to figure out, like that
one has that funny letter looks like. I was like,
I don't want to mess with that one. But I
want to thank you for having me on as a
co host, and the Lovely Amos for all her background
stuff that she does with the slide show that cap

(01:42:42):
and pulled together and some of her pictures or her
slides are always amazing to make.

Speaker 1 (01:42:46):
They are they.

Speaker 2 (01:42:47):
Are, and it was a real pleasure to be here,
and I want to encourage all the other members of
the team to step up and give it a try.
But before I give it any brush for blaime, I
just want say thank you everybody for being here with
us tonight. We love all of you, We appreciate all
of you, and good night all y'all.

Speaker 1 (01:43:09):
Yes, once again, thank you everyone for listening and supporting us.
Until next time, take care of your mind, take care
of each other, and never stop asking the hard questions.
Until then, go forth and be amazing.

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S5 E19 - The Brutal Murders at Hinterkaifeck Farm

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}S5 E19 - The Brutal Murders at Hinterkaifeck Farm