S5 E23 - The Milk Carton That Changed America - The Etan Kalil Patz Story Part 1 - True Crime and Wine Time

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, Hello, Hello, Okay, I got things ready.

Speaker 2 (00:21):
I know. I'm like, I don't know what to do.
It tell me what to do.

Speaker 3 (00:26):
Welcome back, I guess you.

Speaker 2 (00:29):
For those who don't know me, I'm Terry. Since I
haven't been here in years.

Speaker 3 (00:34):
It feels like it's been three weeks. It feels like years.
It does, it does feel like years.

Speaker 2 (00:43):
But hello lovelies, guys, Hello everybody. Welcome to another episode
of the True Crime and Wine Time podcast. And we
are all going to give me a lot of grace
tonight because I'm way out of practice, okay, and I
think this is only my second or third time.

Speaker 3 (01:04):
To have wine.

Speaker 2 (01:06):
And I'm on my not my second glass of drink.
Half at the first glass and topped it off. But anyway,
welcome to the podcast where we uncork the most jaw
dropping true crime stories while sipping something smooth to take
the edge off. So, guys, poor glass, lock your freaking

(01:27):
doors and your windows, and let's uncork the truth behind
some of the darkest crimes.

Speaker 3 (01:34):
Yes, hello, friends, and thanks for watching us tonight. Now,
before we begin, you guys, some of you know the drill.
If you're watching us on YouTube, please hit that like button.
Bring subscribe to our channel and hit the notification bell
so you never miss when we go live or drop
an episode. You can also become a member, which comes

(01:54):
with all sorts of exclusive perks. There's a lot to name.
All you have to do is click the jow and
pick which tier works best for you. And you guys,
if you're listening to this as a pod, thank you,
thank you very much. But if you could please leave
a rating and a review and even a download, as
it helps our little pod get noticed. And if you
want to see all the eye rolls and snarks, you

(02:15):
should head over to our YouTube and watch the replay
of all of our ships.

Speaker 2 (02:22):
I guess I mean the eye rolls are epic, except
for people like to screenshot them and take snips, and
then all of a sudden, they show up on our
thumbnails for shows that show.

Speaker 3 (02:36):
Yeah, our staff is something else, aren't they. Well, Terry,
why don't you tell the fine folks this evening what
we will be covering tonight?

Speaker 2 (02:44):
Okay, I will, and I'm going to warn everybody. I
am going to try to keep my emotions in check
because tonight we are covering the case of Aton Pates,
a boy who's nineteen seventy nine disappearance captured the attention
of the world, and in my opinion, I think it
was the first missing person, missing person's.

Speaker 3 (03:06):
Childcase that really went bars to wall nationwide and global
Essex and global. Yeah. Well, before we get into drinking tonight, Terry,
you have something exciting coming up that you want to share,
So please tell.

Speaker 2 (03:24):
The folks I do is it exciting? No? I will
be live in downtown bashtrop Texas, which guys, it's a
little bedroom community outside of Austin. I want to say
it's eighteen nineteen miles. I'll be there on September thirteenth
at the CC Wine in Company. And guys, if you

(03:45):
know anything about this case and you're a member or
you live in the area, you want you're going to
want to catch this. I'm going to be covering the
Stacey Stites murder along with the controversy around the conviction
of Rodney Reid. Now, this is a very very small venue,
so it's going to be an intimate conversation with friends

(04:05):
and grape wine, and there's going to be dying for
some Q and A. So to be similar to what
we did in Ohio where we got to talk with
the audience. It's a smaller venue and I am very
very excited.

Speaker 3 (04:18):
I'm excited for you too. And if you can't make
a Divast Drop and you're a member, this is one
of those exclusive perks I was talking about. All of
our live in person shows are streamed live in real
time to all of our members. So if you can't
make it to Vast Drop Texas, join now and you'll
be able to watch it with us on the thirteenth.

(04:38):
And I am so excited to hear about about this
this case. Terry's told me a little bit about it,
and it's it's something, it is something. Well, before we
get into what we're drinking, I think we should say
hi to some people in the chat because it looks
like people have missed you.

Speaker 2 (04:55):
I see that Craig. I mean ya while I was gone?
Or did he only show back up because I'm here
because we didn't tell anybody I was back to day
since we weren't sure.

Speaker 3 (05:05):
I don't know I was watching I'm not here. Okay, hello,
lady and Gray there for.

Speaker 2 (05:12):
Some reason, the doctor's watching I'm not here. It's your imagination.
This is pre week.

Speaker 3 (05:15):
You're not lifting anything heavy on this show. It's fine. Hello,
Cappin did a fantastic job last week. Yes, I mean
for that.

Speaker 2 (05:25):
Show Happen, did a great job, Lady and Gray did
a great job. I was worried that I was going
to be fired from my own podcast because he did
such a great job. The glasses under my five pound ratio. Cappens,
I'm good.

Speaker 3 (05:41):
Good evening, Terri. It's yeah, good evening. By the way, y'all,
you have all better buckle up and get some sleep
tonight because I was going to be early tomorrow on
Couch Court. But I'll talk about that later. I'm miss WTF.

Speaker 1 (05:53):
Hello.

Speaker 3 (05:53):
She's one of the amazing mods over on our Girl
My Shorties channel. There's elbow feed. I told him about
this case. I did not give him very much information
about this case, but I was like, between this episode
and the next episode, you're gonna be pissed, so you're
gonna want to watch of them, and I'm not going
to tell you why. I'm not going to tell you why.

Speaker 2 (06:14):
So well before we get into what we're drinking and stuff,
just for those that have been following the Menindez stuff
with us, Oh yeah, they did go before the parole
board today. Lal and Eric one each day, but they
have four months to give us answers. Oh wow, But
I have said an alert and when we get the answers,

(06:35):
and of course Scott, who are our very good friend
who's been on the show, I will ask him if
he can give me a heads up because I'm sure
he will find out about it and I will at
least do a short or a quick update on that.
But the buzz from what I've heard this afternoon, it
went very well today.

Speaker 3 (06:53):
Oh wow, yeah, because the other brothers tomorrow, right, yes, yeah,
we'll see, We'll see see. Maybe we'll just have to
have mister Scott Hoover back on the show right too,
and on your best day to.

Speaker 2 (07:07):
It since I always make things long. But I find
it interesting that one of the Meninda's brothers, people made
a big deal because he had to go to the
hospital and they called him a wimp.

Speaker 3 (07:17):
Oh yeah, he did the area.

Speaker 2 (07:19):
It was a kidney stone, and I believe I read
it was like a ten or and eleven. The biggest
I've done is an eight and a half, which is
the size of a two and a half carrot diamond.
Oh imagine that coming out.

Speaker 3 (07:33):
No, thank you.

Speaker 2 (07:34):
So anybody who wants to give people crap for that
must hurts well on that.

Speaker 3 (07:42):
Why don't we just terry, what are you drinking today?
We're gonna move on.

Speaker 2 (07:45):
I'm drinking this. I am drinking one of my all
time favorites, thanks to Double H who gifted me a
case for my birthday and just now able to enjoy it.
So I opened the first bottle and I'm enjoying. It's
a twenty twenty two. I thought it to twenty three,
but it's a twenty two Napavella Estate seven Young Blanc,
and the tasting notes say it's an inviting seven Young

(08:08):
Blanc with right green wine and grapefruit. I taste none
of that in it.

Speaker 3 (08:13):
Oh okay, it's just.

Speaker 2 (08:16):
If you like seven Young Blank. It's just crisp, it's refreshing,
and it literally quenches your thirst, which I find a
lot of seven Young Blanks, or we'll talk. I don't, Yeah,
this one doesn't. So I just say it's yummy.

Speaker 3 (08:30):
Okay, that's a great review for a bottle, and they
may not appreciate it, but I do.

Speaker 2 (08:36):
I'll send a clip to them since we're talking to
them about doing a show there.

Speaker 3 (08:40):
Well, tonight, I'm finishing off this bottle of Bella Sarah. No,
I did not drink. I've been on this bottle for
a couple of days, y'all. Okay, So but I'm finishing
out and the bottle it doesn't really say much, but
it does tell me that Bella Sara apparently means beautiful
evening in Italian. So clearly I am now fluent in Italian.

(09:03):
So that's the way to share about that.

Speaker 2 (09:05):
Before we go past that. Did I remember hearing that
you drank the wine love Spells before we did a
show together.

Speaker 3 (09:16):
I did. I did. It was an emergency. It needed
to happen, ma'am. No. I was talking to upple Fee
because you said they don't sell it around here, and
I was like, I think we're going to have to
go up to Marian and buy They had a fantastic wine.
So I think one of these weekends he is off,

(09:38):
we're going to go back up to seven Wind Winery
and get a bunge of wine. Okay, Because I was like, good.

Speaker 2 (09:46):
All, did you love spell without me? I mean I
feel a little. I kind of feel like when Double
H watches a show, like when we were watching Yellowstone,
and we weren't allowed to watch it without each other.
I feel like you cheat it on me.

Speaker 3 (10:01):
Oh I did, just so.

Speaker 2 (10:03):
You know, spell, I thought you were supposed to be
in love with me.

Speaker 3 (10:07):
I did. I did. Don't worry, I'll get more.

Speaker 2 (10:09):
It was an emergency. If it was a wine emergency.

Speaker 3 (10:13):
It was. It was a much if.

Speaker 2 (10:15):
It was a wine emergency. No, no guilt.

Speaker 3 (10:19):
You know my life. You know my life. Well you guys.
With that, let's get into the story of Aton Pates,
shall we. I know it's spelled, not how it sounds.
It is, just didn't let everyone know. I learned that
the other day. So I'm not having a good week

(10:39):
on pronunciations. I guess I've just been replacing Terry.

Speaker 2 (10:44):
I could say, everyone's aware I'd never pronounce anything, okay,
and it's not trying to stole my thing.

Speaker 3 (10:49):
But but it is pronounced Aton pa in case nobody
else knew that, And that's okay. If you didn't know that,
it is not obvious that that's how one would say it.

Speaker 2 (10:58):
So now there, I think the best way to start
out the story is by you reading an excerpt from
the book after Aton, the missing child case that held
America Captive by author Lisa R. Cohen, because it really
captures the impact on society when shocking and horrific things

(11:19):
such as this one that we're covering tonight happened. And guys,
this was before we had the twenty four hour news
speeds that we have today. Yeah, yeah, let me read
that to you all. So it says, like another iconic
New York tragedy, Kitty Genovesi's brutal stabbing death in nineteen
sixty four, his neighbors turned a deaf ear to her

(11:41):
anguished cries for help. The Pate's case didn't touch most
of us personally, yet it somehow went beyond the purely
shocking to fundamentally alter our collective perceptions and like events
of more historical significance, the Kennedy assassination or September eleventh,

(12:02):
Aton pats its disappearance off his own street and broad daylight,
is a moment frozen in time, a bridge leading us
away from a more innocent world where such horror couldn't
possibly happen, to a darker one where it did. Today,
our president doesn't travel unprotected in an open car like

(12:24):
John F. Kennedy did in nineteen sixty three. Americans stand
acceptedly in long lines as the airport at the airport
and uneasily scrutinize the faces around us, And when a
scream is heard outside our window in the early morning hours,
we think twice about ignoring it. Thirty years after Aton Vantage,

(12:47):
his case has also changed our cultural landscape in ways
that we take for granted about our children's safety, their independence,
our peace of mind. That is so powerful and so true.

Speaker 3 (13:02):
It is.

Speaker 2 (13:03):
And I will tell you I've known this case, knew
this case. I didn't know about that book until we
started doing this. I actually ordered that book today. Oh nice,
because I'm scared to read it. Yeah, I'm like, I
need to read it.

Speaker 3 (13:18):
Also, before we are getting ready to go into the
background here, we are going to drop a trigger warning. Unfortunately,
this case does talk about horrible things that happen to children,
including sexual abuse. So this may not be the episode
for you. And if it's not, that is quite okay.

(13:39):
You can come back any other time. I mean, it's
not going to be overloaded and super detailed, but we
do want to preemptively say that it will be talked
about quite a bit, So just want to put that
out there for our listeners.

Speaker 2 (13:56):
Yeah, I just want to say, I will say, with
this being my first case coming back, we couldn't have
picked a better case, and if we didn't, I know,
if we didn't know for sure I would be back today.
I was hoping. But I am going to warn everybody
up front another trigger warning. Terry is still very emotional

(14:19):
after going through surgery and everything. And just today when
I was rereading through the notes and going through everything,
I ugly cried and I put on waterproof masscara. So
I just will let people know I am a little
more emotional than usual. And I will say it was
triggering to me because it reminded me of why I

(14:42):
didn't like missing person cases. Yeah, but now I have
the other side of the passion for missing person cases.
But Aton Khalil Pates was born October ninth, nineteen seventy
two and New York, Didy to Stanley and Julie Pates. Now, quickly, guys,

(15:04):
before we go any further, I want to draw attention
to the meaning of Aton's name. The name Aton is
a Hebrew English name, and it's a variation of Ethan,
which is what I think we're more familiar with familiar with,
and it means enduring, firm, or strong in English. Now
in Hebrew, his middle name Khalil means crown or perfection,

(15:30):
which I find cool. I think even despite his short life,
Aton's legacy changed the way society and law enforcement treat
child disappearances. And his legacy is an enduring crown that
lives on today.

Speaker 3 (15:47):
Okay, it does. So it tears me up. Just you've
sang it out loud. I've read it like a billion times.
It does, and it's just so, oh, what a cutie pie.

Speaker 2 (16:01):
I'm not. Oh, thank you on top for the super
chat waterproofskia. It's the stuff that makes the eyelashes black,
but when you cry, and you ugly cry, it doesn't
run down your face and make you look like you've
been out drinking all night.

Speaker 3 (16:25):
Thank you for the super check. Thank you for that.

Speaker 2 (16:31):
There's not often that you look at somebody's name and
you think, oh my god, how did how did the
universe make that name? They didn't know this. I mean,
they may have known crowd or perfection, but they didn't
know what it would mean this many years later.

Speaker 3 (16:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (16:49):
Now, Aton's father, Stanley, was a professional photographer and sadly,
a collection of photographs that he had taken and his
son would be used later in the search for Aton.

Speaker 3 (17:06):
I mean, I know, Oh, it's gonna be a long case.
You guessed it's gonna be a lot. Now. Aton was
the middle child of the Pates family. He had an
eight year old sister, Shira, and a little brother Ari,
who was two at the time of Aton's disappearance. Is

(17:26):
he where a playboy Bunnie shirt? He is?

Speaker 2 (17:30):
But that was cool back in the late seventies and eighties.
Remember I had shown Cassidy on my underwear and it
was his face and nobody thought that was inappropriate. So
a playboy bunny on a child back then was not inappropriate.

Speaker 3 (17:46):
I mean, yeah, okay.

Speaker 2 (17:47):
Today, probably not the best idea.

Speaker 3 (17:51):
Probably not the best. But it was different times. Everybody
needs to remember for sure, during this story it was
different times, different times, all right. So they also said
Ayton was said to be an easy middle child. He
actively tried to please, which was a refreshing change of
pace after Shira. But he knew the secret ways to
annoy his sister, as only a sibling can. My younger

(18:15):
brother who's staying with us can totally verify that he
was also both protective and jealous of his little brother Ari. Now,
Ayton was imaginative and full of stories, and he dreamed
of adventures with his imaginary playmate, Johnny France America, which

(18:35):
is such a funny and awesome name for an imaginary friend.
Like that's amazing photo.

Speaker 2 (18:44):
That photo just kills me.

Speaker 3 (18:47):
Don't worry, y'all, we'll be getting mad as getting romad.
Tell of a story. Don't worry, We're gonna feel all
the emotions.

Speaker 2 (18:57):
Yeah, Okay, Now, I think everybody needs to remember this
next part. We need to remember what it was like
in the seventies and that things were different. I mean,
I was born in seventies. I know things were different.
But I will tell you with revisiting this case, when
you guys decided that we should do it, my first

(19:18):
reaction wasn't great. I had a lot of nasty things
to say, like how could they? What kind of parents
were they? And then I was like, Okay, Terry, it
was the seventies.

Speaker 3 (19:29):
Different times, you know. And I'll be honest, I can't
imagine even thinking about taking the what we're going to
talk about next into consideration, let alone in New York City.
But it was actually fairly normal. So no victim blaming here,
because guys, it was a different time.

Speaker 2 (19:48):
We got to remember, it didn't become an issue until
it became an issue.

Speaker 3 (19:54):
Well I think, I mean this has always happened baby.

Speaker 2 (19:59):
Sat when she was nine. It's now illegal to leave
your nine year old home alone. Yeah, so I mean
it was just different times.

Speaker 3 (20:09):
Okay, Well what's next.

Speaker 2 (20:13):
So Aton frequently and I will just tell you, guys,
I so remember me doing this in the seventies, asked
his parents to let him walk alone to school to
the school bus stop because he used his six year
old logic that, well, my friends do it, and they're
all fine, what's the problem with Bob and Dad? So,

(20:37):
and with his first grade year ending soon, he decided
he was like, Okay, time's running out here, guys, I need.

Speaker 3 (20:45):
To do this.

Speaker 2 (20:47):
Yeah, I need to do this, And so he asked
his parents let him walk to the bus stop.

Speaker 3 (20:53):
Yeah. Recently, due to a bussing strike, Aton had been
walked to and from school by Andy Harmon, who was
hired by the Pates to do that, and Stan and Julie.
His parents were uncertain about Aton walking to the bus
up alone, but they eventually agreed. Now, there was no

(21:14):
specific moment when they decided. It occurred rather gradually, and
his parents considered that this experience could help him gain confidence,
as they had observed both cautiousness and curiosity in his behavior.
I mean, okay, I guess I mean now.

Speaker 2 (21:38):
Aton was especially afraid of getting lost, because guys, once,
at the age of five, he got stuck in the
elevator as his mother exited, leaving him briefly separated and
terrified until they reunited. Guys, can you imagine, I mean,
I lost my kids in the store, But can you
imagine the elevator doors closing and you're second the elevator

(22:01):
and you're not with your mom and you're five?

Speaker 3 (22:03):
Oh yeah, for sure.

Speaker 2 (22:05):
I mean, let's just think about it. And his mom, Julie,
said she saw the terrified look on his face as
he realized what was happening, and he screamed until the
elevator brought him back up to her. Guys, just thinking
about that makes me think and realize just how frightened

(22:27):
a Ton must have been when he was taken.

Speaker 3 (22:30):
Yeah. Now, the morning of excuse me, pardon, the morning
of May twenty fifth, nineteen seventy nine, six year old
eight and Pates was so excited and probably proud that
finally his mission was coming to Fruition. He's a big
kid now. He even remembered to bring the dollar bill

(22:51):
that he'd earned helping the neighborhood handyman. We'll get to
that different point. Despite his mother's advice to put it
in his pocket, though, he chose to carry it in
his hand, planning to buy a soda at the bodega
before catching the school bus.

Speaker 2 (23:09):
I mean, Mom, if I put it in my pocket,
my friends won't see that I have it, and I
can't show that I have it and show how mature
I am.

Speaker 3 (23:17):
And a dollar's a lot of money. I mean, that
was a lot of money, like a lot.

Speaker 2 (23:22):
So I am telling him Aton, no shame, honey, I
would have done the same. No shame. Now. Just before
eight that morning, Julie noted it was time to leave
for the bus. Aton walked ahead of her down three
flights of stairs to the door, waiting for her to
unlock the door, because guys, he was still still too

(23:45):
short to reach the lock to unlock the door.

Speaker 3 (23:49):
Yeah, I mean.

Speaker 2 (23:51):
Is that not just precious? Just precious. Now Aton left
his parents' Soho apartment at one thirteen Prince Street by
himself for the first time. Now, guys, it just hit me.
He lived on Prince Street. In his middle name means crown.

Speaker 3 (24:08):
I did not put that together.

Speaker 2 (24:10):
It just hit see add wine, It just hit my brain.

Speaker 3 (24:14):
Did not put that together.

Speaker 1 (24:15):
It's interesting.

Speaker 2 (24:17):
Sorry, there was that shiny ball. Now he was planning
to walk two blocks to board his school bus at
West Broadway in Prince Street. Now, this is normally about
a four minute walk for a kid. He was wearing
a black Future Flight Captain pilot cap, a blue corduroy
jacket that he had inherited from his best friend, Jeff Limbeck,

(24:40):
blue jeans, and blue sneakers with fluorescent stripes. Guys, we'll
find out he never got to the bus.

Speaker 3 (24:49):
Yeah again, guys. Oh look, can I get a little hat.
It's nineteen seventy nine and this was fairly normal behavior,
allowing young ChIL rend to travel without adults, particularly to
school bus stops or to schools themselves. Okay, and it
was a time's case and others such as Adam Walsh

(25:11):
in nineteen eighty one, when parents began to change this practice.
We talked a little bit about Adam Walsh's father, John Walsh,
the host of America's Most Wanted, in our Two Partners
episode about John list last month. So if you haven't
listened to that, go listen to that.

Speaker 2 (25:30):
I mean, everybody needs to remember if you weren't raised
in those times in the seventies. I mean, I lived
in Houston, it wasn't New York. I rode my bike
in seventy nine. That was nine at the time. I
rode my bike probably two miles to go to the
little corner store to get my mom's cigarettes. I mean

(25:52):
it was a thing.

Speaker 3 (25:54):
Crazy times.

Speaker 2 (25:55):
I mean it was a crazy time. So no judgment
on anyone now eight times. Mom Julie had spent the
day preparing for a family trip scheduled for the upcoming
Memorial weekend, and she had asked Aton in my thing,
My mom told me, when I ask you, I'm telling
you right. So I want to say Aton's mom told

(26:16):
him to come directly home from school to help her. Now,
he was expected to return from the best stop with
neighbor Karen Altman, whose daughter attended the same school as Aton.

Speaker 3 (26:30):
By three point thirty pm, Aton had not returned, and
Julie grew concerned with school buses just back in use
after a driver's strike. She thought, okay, there might be
a delay. That stuff is a nightmare even where I live.
So can't wait for a busing next Wednesday. It's going

(26:50):
to be great. So she watched from the front windows,
hoping to spot her children coming up the book.

Speaker 2 (26:59):
Now, Julie called Karen Autman, whose windows faced the Pate's Law,
to check if you know Aton was with her. Karen
said no, and she was thinking he might have gone
to a friend's house.

Speaker 3 (27:12):
Sounds horrible to me. Now.

Speaker 2 (27:14):
While talking to Julie, Karen asked her daughter Chelsea, if
she knew where Aton went after school.

Speaker 3 (27:22):
Yeah. And then you guys, you know what she says.
Aton wasn't in school today. That's what Chelsea had to say.
And at school, Aton's teacher had noticed his absence, but
she did not report it to the principal.

Speaker 2 (27:39):
So, I mean, I know it was the seventies, but
I do remember my parents getting calls if I wasn't
at school, So I don't know if that was just Houston,
but I want to know why the school didn't call
to say hey, aton's not here to want to check

(28:01):
in you know something, Yeah, my school did. Maybe they
just knew I was a rug rat and that I
was a problem child.

Speaker 3 (28:09):
I mean maybe, And unfortunately the paids had to do
the thing that all parents fear the most and report
their very young and vulnerable son missing in a city
of millions. The fear I could not even imagine that.

Speaker 2 (28:31):
I can't either, and especially it wasn't a common thing
back then. So Detective Bill Butler received a call at
five pint fifteen pm and arrived at Prince Street with
his partner by five point thirty. They were then joined
by three other detectives. Stand showed a tons photos to

(28:52):
the officers, and Julie described, you know, the day's event.
This is what happened in the morning, YadA, YadA, YadA,
And it was a story sadly she would repeat many
many times in the following days.

Speaker 3 (29:05):
In years. Yeah, that is a seventies suit, just saying so,
just saying.

Speaker 2 (29:12):
I love the you know, seventies and eighties, but we
don't need to bring that back.

Speaker 3 (29:17):
Well. While he empathized with the mother's dress, cases of
children failing to return from school on time were commonly
due to truancy or extended play in the park. It's
never really that big of a deal. Apparently, now, a
children's temporary absence might be overlooked by Pierre's parents during

(29:41):
routine activities such as preparing dinner, and typically these scenarios
resolved within hours when the child reappeared, so they kind
of thought, no, this is probably what's going to happen. However,
confirmation from the school that Aton was officially marked absence
suggests that the matter could not be dismissed as a

(30:02):
simple oversight or miscommunication. This was the real deal.

Speaker 2 (30:09):
I'm sorry to throw us off track. Kelly p Aquinet.
What I wouldn't give to have Aquinet again. I had
the biggest and best hair with Aquinet, and I am
the reason that the ozone is dying. Just had to
say that. When I saw Aquinet, I was like, oh
my god, there are some days I would love for that. Now,

(30:32):
the police needed to confirm a Ton's of absence from school,
but guys, no one was available on Friday evening of
Memorial Day weekend. But this officer was a finger. He realized, oh,
I know the custodian, and he you know, called him
up they went to the school. I mean that's a

(30:53):
good police you know, that's good policing, as they say.
Now at the PS three NX Police Station Annex, a
police officer checked school records to verify Aton's absence before
requesting backup. Now, the search for Aton began ten hours

(31:13):
after he was last seen, and they used nearly one
hundred police officers. They even used bloodhounds.

Speaker 3 (31:22):
And the bloodhounds quickly moved between the bus stop and
Paiates Loft before returning, sparking unproven theories that Aton missed
the bus, returned home, couldn't reach the door lock and
had wandered off. The dogs then searched nearby SOHO blocks,
including Ebidelli, Bruno Bakery and the local fruit stand. However,

(31:46):
the animals, the bloodhounds didn't signal anything useful.

Speaker 2 (31:51):
But they're still good boys, I say say, but we
also need to remember it was nineteen seventy and they're
still good. To have the technology, they didn't get the
training they get nowadays, and they were good boys.

Speaker 3 (32:04):
They're still good boys. They're still boys.

Speaker 2 (32:07):
Okay, something just hit my brain and somebody will tell
me in the chat. What was the dog's name on
Dukes of Hazards, because when that photo popped up, that's
who I thought of, Ruscoe Pico's dog from Dukes of Hazards,
the blood hat.

Speaker 3 (32:20):
Oh, Terry, I've missed you.

Speaker 2 (32:23):
I know, I'm sorry your.

Speaker 3 (32:27):
Picture.

Speaker 2 (32:28):
But there was at first, there was hope that Aton
had simply run away or was with a friend. Now, guys,
I have to be honest, and I say to this
day that statement that he had run away bothers me.

Speaker 3 (32:43):
Okay, I get not.

Speaker 2 (32:45):
Wanting to think that, you know, you don't want to
think the worst, but to automatically jump to that really
bothers me because we know it still happens today.

Speaker 3 (32:56):
We let's say it's Flash bye. We I mean producer Amy,
who's backstage?

Speaker 2 (33:02):
What's Flash the dog? Oh? The dog's name is Flash. Okay,
Oh my goodness, woman, and it's a weird name. Okay,
but that name when you say Flash, Never would I
have thought that was the dog's name.

Speaker 3 (33:16):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (33:17):
It did not connect in my brain. So I thought
Flash was Terry jumping over and asking the dog's name. Well,
it's my first day back, guys.

Speaker 3 (33:27):
People have graces. Fine's fine grace.

Speaker 2 (33:30):
Now what I was saying though I'm bored if you say, oh,
my son probably went to a friend's house, but don't
instantly jump to they ran away, because we still see
that in today's time and with doing midday missing it
just it goats me, Okay, it just misses me off. Now,

(33:52):
after an overnight search by police, including a helicopter in
harbor patrol units along the Hudson Rigs River from Greenwich
Village all the way to Lower Manhattan, guys, optimism faded
because there was no siding. Now in law enforcement, if
you follow true crime, you know that there's time markers

(34:13):
like nine hours, twelve or forty eight.

Speaker 3 (34:16):
They're crucial.

Speaker 2 (34:17):
Okay. After forty eight hours, recovery chances decrease sharply. But guys,
for a young child, twenty four hours is the marker. Okay,
So for getting through the night often signals the start
of facing reality. Yeah, and they didn't find out for

(34:40):
how many hours? I mean, So it's yeah, it's not great,
it is, Thank you, Kaptain. I'm glad somebody loves me
and missed me.

Speaker 3 (34:50):
And yes, I miss being able to be on the
bottom and be the top half of cabins.

Speaker 2 (34:56):
Oh you like to be.

Speaker 3 (35:00):
So rain started drizzling on the searchers, and by one
fifteen am, when bloodhounds were requested from upstate, any traces
of Aton, his prints, or his scent were being washed away,
because of course that would happen. Then. Now, back at
the paids loft, officers compiled names to identify possible connections

(35:25):
while reviewing neighborhood maps. Now the phone rang frequently, and
access to local properties was limited by holiday closures because remember, y'all,
it's Memorial Day weekend and businesses being closed, authorities concentrated
their efforts on residents and workers in the vicinity, particularly

(35:46):
individuals who had knowledge of Aton and his family. So
it's all looking great.

Speaker 2 (35:55):
And if you remember correctly, or if you were a
sex and the City fan like I was, people leave
New York and go to the Hamptons, they go other
placers because it's brutal in New York, and New York
kind of shuts down Memorial weekend.

Speaker 3 (36:09):
I didn't know that.

Speaker 2 (36:10):
So now the next morning, just three blocks away, Jack
Limbeck watched his sleeping son Jeff, waiting for him to
wake up. You now, Jeff was Aton's best friend and
his name was still sewn into the jacket a Ton
wore the day before when he went missing. Aton's mother

(36:32):
hadn't yet changed the name inside the jacket after getting
it from Jack. The boys often swapped clothes between each
other and were nearly in disguised indiscat even indisquinguished.

Speaker 3 (36:46):
I can't even talk distinguishable.

Speaker 2 (36:48):
You could not tell them apart except sadly, Jeff was
asleep nearby.

Speaker 3 (36:56):
I mean, look at that picture I'm saying there.

Speaker 2 (36:59):
It was finguishable, thank you, But I mean they could
have been twins.

Speaker 3 (37:04):
Twins. Yeah, So Jeff opened his eyes, and Jack hesitated
to explain, not wanting to worry his son, because how
do you have that conversation? And how how do you still?
He realized Jeff might have answers and decided he had
to act. After a few minutes, he quietly informed Jeff

(37:27):
that Aton hadn't returned home last night. Jeff looked anxious,
and Jack said, listen, we'll look for him now. And
the six year old remained still momentarily before rising and
proceeding towards the kitchen, and he said, we have to
bring him some food and water. He'll be hungry. M

(37:52):
that's I hate that. It's so sweet so sweet.

Speaker 2 (38:00):
Word spread about Aton's disappearance to Soho residents spending the
long weekend at home, prompting broader people getting together and
helping the Soho Cooperative Play Group, which had planned its
annual picnic that afternoon, quickly pivoted and they became the
Aton Pates Action Committee. I mean they flipped that switch.

Speaker 3 (38:24):
They sure did. Without access to Stan Pates's photos, about
twenty people independently created and distributed flyers with a sketch
of Aton, photocopping thousands and posting them around town or
handing them on the street, which is what you love
to see a community do. Oh, thank you on top

(38:47):
X for the super stigger. Thank you you're being so generous,
and I thank you so much. Are and I just
have to pay. I can't see your face your profile picture.
It looks like very clear. It looks very similar to
my tattoo on my back. So the tiger looking thing.

Speaker 2 (39:05):
With the wings, it looks like, oh, so I have
a heart with wings that's got stuff on top. Okay,
but I'm looking at it without my glasses on, and
I'm like, okay, maybe we could be friends.

Speaker 3 (39:16):
Well it's some kind of big cat with wings. On topics,
tell us more about your profile picture.

Speaker 2 (39:21):
Yes, please, and the chat tell us some more about that. Now,
law enforcement officers and local residents but they were participating
in the search, were now provided with photos from Stan,
you know, including that picture. Guys, you gotta remember he's
a photographer. You don't normally get that. I mean, yeah,

(39:45):
that's a that's.

Speaker 3 (39:46):
A really good photo. It is because you know, many
photos of missing children are very difficult to identify. Often
they are unclear images from photo boosts or outdated school
portraits that may not accurately reflect the child's current appearance,

(40:08):
because children literally change within a couple overnights overnight, and
I think, I know, I know, little mama, he's gone
on his dad's for a week, and it comes back
and he's like three inches dollar all the time, and
I'm like, what is happening? So that is a problem
with missing children, now, not Aton Pates. Obviously, Aton smiled

(40:30):
in his father's portraits, and his hair detailed by Stan's
camera at work, and his eyes just clearly sparkling. These
photographs rendered his presence more apparent than that of many
other missing children. I mean, these were gonna get people's
attention I mean they're very clear, especially in nineteen seventy nine. Okay,

(40:55):
but you.

Speaker 2 (40:55):
Can also meet I see a little bit of personality
in this picture.

Speaker 3 (40:59):
Oh yeah, I yeah, so.

Speaker 2 (41:04):
But I mean to think of your dad, you know,
as a parent, as a dad. You're a photographer. You
take these pictures of your children. Never did you imagine
what that picture would be used for?

Speaker 3 (41:16):
No, you know, side note, side quest here. You know
your show mid Day Missing that I watch all the time.
You know, they'll describe what that person was wearing. And
there have been many times where I've sat here, you know,
where my sons at school, being like, I have no
idea what he wore to school today, and I even
made him change his clothes and I have no idea.

Speaker 2 (41:38):
Oh anyway, I know, And it's something that you don't
think about, just like with Aton's case, nobody really thought
about what we needed to do when a child went
missing because it didn't happen. You had to do it
because something pivoted that. And unfortunately all of us go
about and live our lives until something happened to us.

(42:00):
And that's why we do give tips at the end
of Midday Missing to try, you know, to give tips.
But you're right if you ask me right now today,
what even my husband wore today and we're in the
same house and he was in the office next to mine.

Speaker 3 (42:16):
I have no idea, no idea, So I have no idea.

Speaker 2 (42:21):
Not saying that makes any of us bad parents or
bad people. It makes us humans. I mean it makes
us humans. Now, Julian Stance stayed at their home, Okay,
they were constantly filding all of these urgent calls and
hoping that Aton would walk through the door.

Speaker 3 (42:42):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (42:43):
Now, in today's time, social media would have thrown them
to the wolves for staying home and not being out searching. Guys,
we didn't have cell phones back then. It was the seventies.
We didn't have all that. Now, as Aton's absence grew longer,
suspicion shifted towards foul play, prompting police to closely monitor

(43:07):
both parents separately and assign each a detective when they
left the apartment. Guys, let's throw no shame at the police.
You have to start inwards and work outwards.

Speaker 3 (43:21):
That's true. We're all sorts of cases, not just it's
everything utually children for sure, but all cases or wivee's
gonna sing. I mean, statistically, there's a reason why now
at first, detectives consider the paids to be possible suspects.
And Julian stand understood that law enforcement were playing the percentages.

(43:47):
They knew that, of course they were going to be
looked at first, and they knew the thoughts of the
official right quote, parents kill their children, that's how most
of the cases end. And that's freaking true. Unfortunately, still
to this day, forty years later, I read about them
all the time and it makes me so angry. But anyway,

(44:09):
Julie was also aware that she was the last known
person to see Aton alive, another big check mark against you.
Julie and Stan also understood that with no other evidence,
they both had to be suspects, and they considered this
to be the least of their problems though, and they

(44:29):
didn't show any resentment to the officers at all. As
a matter of fact, they're pretty much an open book to.

Speaker 2 (44:37):
I will say, if you can look at some of
the old footage footage today, I mean the grace that
they give, I mean that is true. I don't know,
they have thrown no shade, no judgment they I mean, yeah,
they are amazed.

Speaker 3 (44:57):
I do find the Pads to be very admirable couple
after everything they've dealt with for the last four years.

Speaker 2 (45:07):
As I said, that's why I mean the grace they gave.
They never once said, oh, if police would have done more,
if this would have been done they I don't know
how they did it, but I am an admiration of them.

Speaker 3 (45:18):
I mean, we're going to disagree on things later in
the night episode, but either way, I still I mean,
you want to believe when you are in their position.

Speaker 2 (45:27):
Six s, especially in the early days. Is we're in
the early days of the disappearance, because perception changes as
time goes on, right, right, So now the couple spent
most of their time building phone calls, hoping to hear
anything that might help them find their precious a time,

(45:49):
you know, there was always the chance that one of
these phone calls would be that magic call. You know,
they were hoping for ransom call. But the majority of
the estimated five hundred calls a day were useless. They
were very nonspecific, and guys, it could have been anyone.

(46:10):
But I want to say, we tell everybody on midday
missing if you know something, even if it's a rumor,
and it's still call it in. So even though someone
called in and said I saw a blonde kid with
a woman, I saw a boy with an older black man,
it's okay. If that's all you saw. It might connect
to another tip from somebody else and they'd be like,

(46:33):
oh crap, we've got these two people. They saw that
this address and this address, and they piece it together.
So I just want to make sure.

Speaker 3 (46:42):
I think as long as it's done with good intentions
of thinking you're helping as opposed to wasting people's freaking
time because you have your own issues that you need attention.
Those are two very different things, and I don't think
there's anything wrong with the first one, being like, I
don't know, maybe it don't help, maybe it won't, but
you know, some people are awful.

Speaker 2 (47:03):
So I agree if it's done authentically in the right
thing to do it.

Speaker 3 (47:08):
Because you never know right now. Of course, some sightings
accurately described Aton coming from everywhere in the city, and
then beyond placing him in fifty different places all at
the same time. Then there were the awkward solace calls
as well, and the occasional vindictive frame jobs to falsely

(47:32):
accuse an enemy because those people are the ones that
talking about and they suck, suck, we do you do
not like them? Boo on you.

Speaker 2 (47:41):
And they're still out there today. They were there in
the seventies and they're sold there. But you also, when
you look at Aton's picture, he I could step outside
and see ten boys and they would similarly look the same.

Speaker 3 (47:55):
Right, Oh yeah, I think and children children, okay, they do.
They don't have as distinct facial features. Yeah, because yeah, exactly,
they're still growing, so like you could easily think five
or six kids look to say. I once had a
time where I was at a store with my kid

(48:17):
and it was a different kid that was not my kid,
and I was like, oh wait, never mind, you just
go over there. You're not mine because from behind they
it's exactly the same, you know, And it was just
like a quick like and they was like, oh you're
you're not mine.

Speaker 2 (48:31):
You're not mine right now. In addition, guys, their other
children weren't even at home. Okay, neither parents spent any
time with Ari r Shira. The whole weekend and the
days that come were no better. Okay, The two siblings,
rightfully so, in my opinion, were being you know, sent

(48:53):
off to neighbors and friends because they were trying to
shield them. Okay, all the while stand and Julie and
more questions. You know, they never planned to have to
go through this, but they were being asked to know
this guy, did atan know him? Could this have happened?
So they were trying to protect their other children.

Speaker 3 (49:13):
Yeah, And after Memorial Day weekend, when the local residents
started returning to town and becoming more aware of the
recent developments, this led to an increase in the search
party sizes. So it is a couple days later, but
more people came out for the cause. Community members gathered

(49:33):
on the street below one thirteen prints and questioned people
passing by and engaging both acquaintances and unfamiliar individuals. They
were out in full force, which is again amazing because
this is not the time where there was social media.
It was completely different. Well, you knew your neighbors, neighbors.

(49:56):
I knew all of my neighbors.

Speaker 2 (49:57):
They knew. I mean even in New York they knew.
And so that's the difference. Now the SOHO residents now
felt like they were banding together because they were fighting
in unseen enemy guys and sadly, it was with the
understanding that this could have happened to any of them.

(50:18):
You know, they weren't just looking for Aton, they were
looking for themselves or their children.

Speaker 3 (50:26):
Yeah. Now, the search for Aton moved block by block,
spreading and growing. The police examined city halls building blueprints
for guidance, but face challenges since most the structures were
centurial former factories that were not intended for homes. The
buildings were structural mazes, and the methodical sweep would be

(50:49):
unworkable according to law enforcement. We'll just put that out there,
according to law enforcement at the time.

Speaker 2 (50:58):
And now I bet you if we googled those locations,
those have now been turned into loft apartments.

Speaker 3 (51:05):
Oh they already were locked departments, I know, but like
what do you call them?

Speaker 2 (51:09):
Because they were the former.

Speaker 3 (51:12):
At purchase cabin like a modern day that pose. Oh
at purchase, Oh okay. I was like going, when they
bought it, that's what it looked like.

Speaker 2 (51:23):
Okay, Now that makes more sense to me because I'm
like going, oh okay.

Speaker 3 (51:29):
Because we see the price on that, which will come
next episode.

Speaker 2 (51:31):
So they turned it into the loft. It was still
the old factory settings. Yes, okay, because I was going
that A long way to go.

Speaker 3 (51:42):
Way I interpret that.

Speaker 2 (51:44):
So now, law enforcements spent thousands of hours looking for Aton.
Divers plunged into the East River searching for his remains.
I mean they were following up a tip from a psychic,
so things that they probably wouldn't normally look at they
looked at. Leads were chased as far as Israel, but

(52:06):
no arrest came from those tips.

Speaker 3 (52:09):
No, and when he still wasn't located, Pets's face graced
the side of a milk carton, one of the first
to do so. After Johnny. I'm meant to look up
how to pronounce his last name because I always see
it wrong. Is a ghost? I think it's go. I'm

(52:29):
very paranoid after pronouncing everything wrong this week. I'm pretty
sure it's Ghosh. My brain tells me Ghosh, so we're
going to go with that. I apologize if it's not.
I mean no disrespect, but between Johnny Gosh and Eugene Martin,
who both went missing after being abducted on their paper
routes in the early nineteen eighties, his photos were also

(52:52):
projected on screens in Times Square. You guys which I
don't know. I feel that if you knew what New
York Times Square I look like in the seventies, you'd
be like, Ooh, I don't know if you need a
picture of a kid up there, But I agree, But
that's amazing.

Speaker 2 (53:07):
But if you stop and think about it, maybe you
wanted up there because of the type of people that.

Speaker 3 (53:11):
Were hanging around that day in that area at the time.
Get there. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (53:17):
So, still with no sign of aton, more tension began
to focus on missing children as a whole, especially after
the abduction of Adam wash from Hollywood. You know, he
was abducted from a shopping mall in Hollywood, Florida, just
two years later, which gained national attention. Yeah, and went

(53:43):
on to create a whole whole thing. I would love
to do an episode on the Walshes. It's just it's tough.
It's so hard. Yeah, but again, that was a hard
one Kiro and I love him. I do too.

Speaker 3 (53:58):
I'm an amazing, amazing man. He has a nobody will
change my mind anyway. So four years in and still
no pates, and with thousands more children being added to
missing persons list. President Ronald Reagan at the time designated
May twenty fifth, nineteen eighty three as National Missing Children's Day,

(54:21):
which was marking the anniversary of Pates's disappearance and further
pushing the issue into the national spotlight. And so we
still celebrate that too this day. As a matter of fact,
this year five two five two zero two five. What
isn't that crazy? It happened now, that is what happened

(54:46):
during that Now, six years went by and Aton's body
had not been found and no arrest had been made.
Assistant United States Attorney Stuart R. Grebois received the case
in nineteen eighty five. Oh that was a year I
was born, and identified Jose Antonio Ramos. That where it's

(55:10):
a picture, Oh that's Stuart. Never mind, I thought that
was gonna be Ramos anyway. He identified Jose and Tonio Ramos,
a convicted child sexual abuser whose former girlfriend, Sandy Harmon,
who had worked for the paces, walking Aton to and

(55:30):
from school during a bus strike, as the primary suspect.
This is important, as you see, I'm getting worked.

Speaker 2 (55:37):
Up, very important.

Speaker 3 (55:39):
I also watched Joe eight five. Yeah, I didn't realize
I was that much older girl. I'm gonna be forty
in like a month. I could literally be your mom.
I live in the South, I could have been on
teen Moms. I suppose that's the case. But are younger

(56:00):
than my mom. She wasn't a teen mom, but.

Speaker 2 (56:03):
No, your mama.

Speaker 3 (56:04):
We still got to talk about those cheesecakes. But anyway,
she called me today and we talked about it. Actually,
but never mind, we'll talk about that after the show.

Speaker 2 (56:12):
I going to just say, guys, anyone who's watching this,
I am trying to work a deal so that all
of you, if you can come to our live shows,
figure out a way that you can taste a little
bit of Mama Lama's cheesecake. Kevin, and I'm very picky
about my cheesecake. It's amazing and it was heaven. So

(56:37):
now let's talk a little bit about Jose Ramos, okay,
because we have to. Unfortunately, and guys, this is gonna
make me real emotional. He was born in the Bronx
on July twenty third, nineteen forty three. I share a
birthday with this guy. Yeah, yeah, just saying I don't

(57:06):
like this, okay, but.

Speaker 3 (57:09):
Not the year just airfly, not like eighty ninety however,
many years old. Eighty years old just the day in
not the the day.

Speaker 2 (57:20):
But I mean, I'm sorry, I don't like that at all.
But he was the oldest of five boys in a
Puerto Rican family. Now, in nineteen sixty he dropped out
of high school and he joined the Navy, where he
served during the Cuban Missile crisis. Now he says he
was given three medals for his service. But guys, that

(57:44):
claim could not be verified. There was no no verification media,
nobody could verify that. He retired from the Navy and
said he worked for a New York ad agency earning
big money. Also another claim that can't be verified. Okay,
because guys, if he was an advertising executive, it'd be

(58:09):
hard to explain how he spent the early seventies living
like a nomad. He was traveling the country, befriending parents
of young sons, and his rap sheet grew quite extensively
burglary and battery in San Diego, vacancy and baton rouge

(58:31):
and contributed contributing to the delinquency of miners and Aniston, Alabama,
and exposing his person in New Orleans. This person and
guess what those claims are verified? Boom, Now, don't get
mad at me, Lama, please don't come through the screen.

(58:54):
I need to say, exposing his person does not necessarily
mean what we think it means. Because when I was
sixteen in Austin, Texas, I was down from visiting. I
had to take a little WII. I went behind a
bush and the cops ticketed me for exposing myself.

Speaker 3 (59:17):
Oh so indecent exposure.

Speaker 2 (59:20):
So I'm not paying that, like the case of him
isn't the same. But you know me, I always try
to be it could have been something as simple as
taking a whiz. His case, I don't think so, right,
I don't, man, but let's not be too judged. General.

Speaker 3 (59:39):
You know, he's innocent until proven guilty on that charge.
Well sure. Now, in nineteen seventy eight, the year before
Aton pays his disappearance, Ramos was hospitalized for a few
months in Bellevue Mental Hospital I'm familiar to some of

(01:00:01):
you to in New York. He claimed that he had
symptoms of confusion, disorientation, and auditory hallucinations. He also said
that it was these voices that would tell him to
harm others. Okay, that's that's great, great, good stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:00:21):
Yes, I mean yeah, So now, nineteen seventy Eightish seventy nine,
Ish Ramos met Sandy Harmon, the woman that we talked
about earlier who was hired by the Pates family to
walk their kids to school. They met at a welfare office. Okay,
the couple, I mean, their love language was different than
any love language.

Speaker 3 (01:00:41):
I know.

Speaker 2 (01:00:42):
They would go dumpster diving together for items that could
be resold. Yeah, I mean, I'm gonna call it early
day thrifting.

Speaker 3 (01:00:53):
Okay, I mean, yeah, nothing wrong with it, nother.

Speaker 2 (01:00:56):
But Sandy was in the Pates home on the day
of Aton's disappearance. And guys, we also need to know
she would house sit for the family when they were away,
so she had keys to the house on Print Street.

Speaker 3 (01:01:15):
Yeah. So Sandy would go on to say, quote, you know,
when I met Michael, which is what Jose called himself,
he was a funny, comical type. She continued, we slept together,
but sex wasn't the main part of our relationship. I
wonder why when I moved to the Lower east Side

(01:01:37):
near Fourteenth Street, he got a place in a tenement
near Tompkins Square Park. My son really seemed to enjoy
this guy's attention. I never saw my son afraid of
Jose Ramos, so I allowed my son to stay over
at his apartment so I could have a night off.

Speaker 2 (01:01:58):
Yeah, we'll get back to that, but I just have
to tell on top, I think all of my exes
are in the Bellevue's in Texas.

Speaker 3 (01:02:08):
Oh are they in multiple states? I was not familiar
with that.

Speaker 2 (01:02:11):
Yeah, oh, I the most popular, I think is in
New York, but there was small ones, but they would
like call it Bellevue Hills or Bellevue Mountain kind of thing.
But yeah, but I would like to stay all exes
are there from losing my love as well. Sorry, I
need a little lightheartedness because it's about get a little uncomfortable.

(01:02:36):
Yeah for me, So I'm sorry, but I'm trying to
find a little bit of lightheartedness. During Aton's disappearance, Remus
was still selling his dumpster diving fines. But what is
really interesting, guys, is shortly after Aton's disappearance was able

(01:02:58):
to go on a twenty two day trip to Europe. Okay,
he told a friend that he had ten thousand dollars, which, guys,
that is a shit ton of money in seventy nine
I mean, that's like forty five thousand in today is money.
That is a that is a buttload of money that guys.

(01:03:23):
I want to know who here thinks he ere in
that kind of money from finding stuff in the dumpsters.

Speaker 3 (01:03:31):
Not me, that's too not me.

Speaker 2 (01:03:34):
Unless somebody a shit threw away a diamond watch or something.

Speaker 3 (01:03:38):
Maybe I don't know about that. I'm suspicious as shit.
But you know what, twenty two days in Europe doesn't
cure psychosis, No, it does not. He still heard the voices,
and it would be those voices that would drive him
to live in isolation when he got back. For a

(01:03:59):
while he lived in the woods, but he eventually found
refuge and a drain pipe in the Bronx. Yeah. Yeah,
Ramos didn't really come on anyone's radar until nine. Oh.
I don't know how this is possible. He didn't really
come on anyone's radar until nineteen eighty two, when he

(01:04:21):
was arrested for allegedly trying to lure two young boys
into a drainage tunnel in the Bronx that he lived
in for a time. And no, it was not like
in a cool teenage mutant Ninja turtle way. It's not
like that. No, I'm a Ninja Turtle fan. I know
that one right. Also, do you think that Penny Wise

(01:04:44):
from It was based on this guy? Because it is
very much giving me those vibes, which is terrifying. I'm
just gonna put my hand over my screens like you.

Speaker 2 (01:04:57):
I hate Pennywise, I hate all client eunce. Yeah, and
let's do that photo and let's just get rid of that.
I would prefer to think of the drainage pipes and
sewers in New York to be where Splinter, Michelangelo, Rafaella, Donnatello,
and Leonardo hung out. Well.

Speaker 3 (01:05:19):
Fun fact, Cappin looked at up today when she saw
my joke, and I don't know if I'd call it
a joke, goes more of the shower thought. I guess
it turns out that you and King wrote it between
nineteen eighty one and nineteen eighty four or five. I
don't know where she wrote that.

Speaker 2 (01:05:35):
I still look it up, so it could be inspiration.

Speaker 3 (01:05:38):
Covey. I don't know it's wild anyway. Again, sorry to
interrupt you guys, but this part is so hard. We're
just trying. We're doing.

Speaker 2 (01:05:47):
What what is.

Speaker 3 (01:05:50):
Up with Kappin? We love her and everything that.

Speaker 2 (01:05:55):
She anywise is not funny and he's not cute. But yes, guys,
I give the trigger warning again, just you know, to
already it. It gets a little more triggering.

Speaker 3 (01:06:07):
Right, tell us more about his weird place.

Speaker 2 (01:06:13):
Now. His drain pipe was weirdly decked out, guys. I mean,
I get making the most of your space. I love
when people do that. But guys, he had a bed,
a nights stand, and a bunch of religious items like
bibles and crucifix inside that drainage pipe.

Speaker 3 (01:06:37):
I did not get wet. I don't understand how drainage
pipes work.

Speaker 2 (01:06:42):
I appear apparently I don't either, because I'm like, how
did you get the bed? I have so many questions,
But it's okay, guys. He also had decorated it with
peace signs and the rolling Stones tongue logo. Okay, Now
he did have some power, some electricity down there, and

(01:07:05):
it was enough to run a lamp. I mean, he
does get from me kudos for making the best of
his living situation and being created. That is as much
as he's getting from me.

Speaker 3 (01:07:16):
Okay, that drain pipe would go for like one point
four million dollars today, house hunters.

Speaker 2 (01:07:23):
Yeah, I'm assuming the drain drainage pipe was big enough
that the bed wedged in that the water went underneath theme,
So it was kind of like sleeping out on the water,
That's what I'm thinking. But that little bit of light
that he had he gained that because he tapped in
and was stealing the city's power supply.

Speaker 3 (01:07:42):
I mean, he's creative, and it just said.

Speaker 2 (01:07:45):
I will give him creativity and that's about it.

Speaker 3 (01:07:48):
Yeah, I don't how much you give this guy so unfortunately, though,
there were also some other creepy things in this drain
pipe makeshift home of his, such a as children's toys
and photos of young boys, most at the age of
ten or under. Yeah, the photos were taken in one

(01:08:10):
of those dime store strip machines that will print out
for in a row like this picture here. I don't
know how many of the young kids see these anywhere.

Speaker 2 (01:08:19):
They still have them. I don't go out that much,
so they still have them in movie theaters.

Speaker 3 (01:08:24):
Okay, Well they were not as cheap probably though.

Speaker 2 (01:08:26):
Oh no, it's like seven dollars probably.

Speaker 3 (01:08:28):
Yeah, they were cheap as shit when I was a
kid too, it was like super cheap. But in many
of those photos Ramos posed with the boys with his
arm draped around them or hugging them.

Speaker 2 (01:08:46):
Yeah, it's not great out here. To a two and
a half hour interrogation, Ramos did admit that some of
the boys in the photos did look like Eton.

Speaker 3 (01:08:55):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:08:56):
He also pronounced his name wrong, I mean, even worse
the mere Lama would do, because he called him eat
in pots, which.

Speaker 3 (01:09:07):
Is the only thing I'm not going to judge him for.

Speaker 2 (01:09:10):
I know, I won't judge him on that losing.

Speaker 3 (01:09:12):
Streak pronouncing people's names this week because I honestly thought
it was eating pets. I mean, why would you.

Speaker 2 (01:09:18):
Not, because that is the spelling. I mean, I mean,
I would think in the two thousands they would have
pronounced a different school.

Speaker 3 (01:09:29):
I don't know, but but I'm not going to hold
it against him that he didn't get the boy's names. Okay,
it's not that suspicious like they want to make it out.
Everything else is.

Speaker 2 (01:09:40):
So that would be suspicious as f because we pronounced
a lot of people's names wrong.

Speaker 3 (01:09:46):
We do we do now.

Speaker 2 (01:09:51):
He claimed that he never met Aton and that none
of those photos were of Aton, but instead of they
were instead of a boy named Jimmy Maamo said that
they were just boys that he mentored and acted as
a father figure two and that some were from New
York and one boy was from New Orleans.

Speaker 3 (01:10:13):
Who here believes that? Not me? That's who? Not me. Oh,
you're a mentor mister, living in a freaking drain pipe suit.

Speaker 2 (01:10:21):
I'm like, where do you take a shower to smell? Okay,
to be mentoring running waters?

Speaker 3 (01:10:29):
Running water, Terry, it's dirty water now. Stan Pete later
said that despite reports, he and Julie were not shown
the photos from the drain pipe, which bothers me. I know,
no parent really wants to see those, but they were
reported to kind of look like Aton and I have

(01:10:53):
other reasons why I'm upset with the police, but yeah,
put it as number one why. I'm like, I'm holding
all of that for next week. I was holding number
one there. They also said that the police had said
that there was no connection, despite the known connection to Sandy.
That's right, you guys, everything we just heard about this
freaking pervert. The police are like, no, it's fine, it's

(01:11:18):
not the great guy, because you know, sure.

Speaker 2 (01:11:24):
Grady asked mentor for what. I don't know. He was
just a father figure mentor so made me think of
Big Boys Big Brothers Club. Not Big brother that's the
TV show, but Boys and Girls Club.

Speaker 3 (01:11:38):
I gotta rush this up. Okay, boys and Girls Club. Yeah,
I know what you're talking about yet.

Speaker 2 (01:11:43):
Now, guys, another interesting thing found in his rain pipe.
I'm gonna call it his dream pipe COSA was a
letter from the Social Security Office dated nineteen seventy eight.
The address listed on this letter was that A residents
just six blocks away from the Pate's home on Print Street.

Speaker 3 (01:12:07):
Oh my gosh, I get all the circumstantial evidence. Oh
my gosh. Anyway, the following summer, a detective found Jose
Ramos allegedly propositioning three young blonde boys near an arcade
on forty second Street. And by allegedly, we mean the

(01:12:30):
cop saw him unzipping his fans, and one of the
kids later said that he'd threatened to hurt him if
they didn't perform certain things on him. You can fill
in the blink, you know what I'm saying. I don't
know if we're actually allowed to say that, so but anyway,
so hey, it's caught pretty red handed at a place

(01:12:51):
called Clayland. Oh there's well, allegedly yes.

Speaker 2 (01:12:55):
But allegedly the yeah. So a search of Romo's bag
turned up a hunting knife and more photos of young
boys and guys. This time there was a photo of
Sandy Harmon's son Bennett. Now a call was made to

(01:13:17):
missing Persons since once again the photos were of boys
who looked like a ton hates now. Amost was charged
with a tempted sodomy, but the chargers were dropped because
the three boys failed to respond to the subpoena.

Speaker 3 (01:13:38):
Just not their fault.

Speaker 2 (01:13:40):
It's not their fault. The parents were probably trying to
protect I mean, no.

Speaker 3 (01:13:45):
Forest reasons could be. They could not live at that
address anymore. How they could have been a lot of
because of what happened to their kids. There's a lot
of things.

Speaker 2 (01:13:52):
There's a lot of things.

Speaker 3 (01:13:52):
They may have gotten the heck out of Dodge and
left the state. It is frustrating, though, that a cop
witnessed this and that wasn't enough.

Speaker 2 (01:14:00):
I'm like a cop saw it is that not enough?
That's an adult. Wouldn't you think you had taken a
one adult over three children's.

Speaker 3 (01:14:10):
I mean, well, I don't know, I don't know if
we want to really bring up that point, it's an adult.

Speaker 2 (01:14:16):
We don't won't necessarily say a cop, but an adult.

Speaker 3 (01:14:20):
I just I found that to be extremely shocking, and
I was very annoyed about it. Now, you guys. The
next year, in nineteen eighty three, the police finally got
around the questioning Sandy Harmon. Why it took this long,
I don't know, but she was given a polygraph test
and when asked if she had ever been in a

(01:14:42):
car with Aton Pates and Hosey Jose Ramos at the
same time, she said no, and the results of her
polygraph indicated eception. Now for reference, Stan Pate also had
trouble pass the polygraph. But that is why polygraphs are

(01:15:03):
not used in court, because they are not really reliable.
Some people bank everything on them polease, sure love to
do that, but they are nowhere near as reliable as
people want to think that they are. Numerous things can
come into play, and it doesn't really mean a whole
lot of nothing to me anyway.

Speaker 2 (01:15:20):
And that's what I think we need to remember that
a light detector test measures physiological responses, not actual deception.

Speaker 3 (01:15:30):
I've seen those like body language experts on YouTube. Beyond
the what I'm talking about But I do not care
for body language experts. And here's why, because they will
sit there just watching somebody, you know, testifying or whatever
and be like X y Z And I'm like, that
is literally me all day because of my anxiety, like
all day. And I want to say that I'm lying

(01:15:52):
because I'm over explained, like, oh my anxiety and trauma
just comes exactly, and I'm like, am I I always
deceptive in what is happening. I don't like it. And
that's fine.

Speaker 2 (01:16:05):
If someone tries to get you to take a polygraph test,
just say no. Say just say no, because they're now
finding out even certain meds you take, if you take
anxiety meds, messes up your reactions and your heart beat,
it makes your heart I mean, just don't do it.

Speaker 3 (01:16:21):
Don't do it and get a lawyer. Ge't worry, it's
going to tell you not to do it. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:16:26):
Now, police also interviewed Sandy's young son Bennett, separately from her. Now, guys,
remember this was in the late seventies early eighties. Back then,
you didn't have to have a parent with the child
when they were being questioned. Okay, Now, After hours of interrogation,

(01:16:47):
Bennett told the police that Ramos had molested him. Okay,
When Sandy was told this, guys, she lost her mind.
She was distraught, and she insisted she had known. And
she also maintained that Ramos had never asked about Aton
or her mind. He never said anything suspicious after his disappearance.

Speaker 3 (01:17:13):
Yeah, yeah, Now, Sandy was described by journalist Edward Klein
as quote an alcoholic living on the margin of society,
a woman whose own mother said she had a tendency
to suppress things end quote. And no charges were brought
against Ramos for the alleged assault on her son. I mean,

(01:17:36):
she sounds like she has her own trauma as as well.

Speaker 2 (01:17:39):
It was the seventies, women weren't allowed to vote, have
their own credit cards. Why would we think that she
could open her mouth and say what she thought. She
was raised to be suppressed. Sorry, fair point. So now
soon Romost got his own polygraph test. It was especially

(01:18:03):
worthless since the paperwork wasn't filed for it, little administrative error.
Missing person's detective Robert Shaw said everyone wanted to solve
the case for the glory, okay, and detectives were gabbing
each other in the back. So basically CoP's pissing contests

(01:18:23):
were going on back then, okay, And when a cop
gets some information, he is supposed to type in a
DD five, which is a follow up report. But guys,
let me tell you, the detectives on the Pats case
would forget to do that because they didn't want the

(01:18:44):
other guys to know what they were up to.

Speaker 3 (01:18:46):
How convenient and wonderful love it.

Speaker 2 (01:18:49):
And there wasn't a DD five. And so I'm just
gonna say, law enforcement, stop the pissing contest. Justice is
what we're looking for. Who gives a shit? Who gets
the glory?

Speaker 3 (01:19:04):
Who gives a shit?

Speaker 2 (01:19:05):
Who gives a shit? It's not like you're gonna get
a raise.

Speaker 3 (01:19:09):
Well, no, it's not true. You can do a shitty
job and get a promo promotion in Massachusetts.

Speaker 2 (01:19:15):
That's if you go over to the con in the world.

Speaker 3 (01:19:19):
I mean, it's not like you know anyway. So maybe
that's why, despite all these coincidences and highly suspicious behavior
that the Bronx Bronx DA Mario Merola publicly dismissed Jose
Ramos's involvement, which pissed a lot of people off, including

(01:19:43):
Stan and Julie Pates and me too. Thank you. Yeah, what,
it's crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:19:53):
Yeah, so we're gonna get back to nineteen eighty five,
which was a good year. But the assistant US attorney Grebois,
who considered Ramos to be the prime suspect, Grubois, was
looking everywhere for Romos and guess where he was, guys,
anyone want to guess, ding ding ding?

Speaker 3 (01:20:15):
Anybody? Anybody?

Speaker 2 (01:20:17):
He was in a Pennsylvania parison and you guess what, guys,
per child Malla station.

Speaker 3 (01:20:23):
Oh my goodness, sure, Pikachu.

Speaker 2 (01:20:27):
Don't bring p Pikachu into it.

Speaker 3 (01:20:30):
Yes, you guys. Ramos was linked to the Pennsylvania Rainbow
family of the Living Light, which is a whole different
rabbit hole. Go down by yourself. We're not doing it today.
Oh I give a little snippet, Yeah, just a little bit.
But you can go do your own. Yeah, it's own
research on them. But it was there where he attended
and was removed twice in the nineteen eighties for being

(01:20:53):
a gross, disgusting piece of shit. I mean, that wasn't
the actual reason, but it's pretty much I summed it
up for you. He was convicted of molesting an eight
year old boy and a gathering in Pennsylvania now Rainbow
Elder Barry Adams helped to identify and convict Jose Ramos.

(01:21:14):
Ramos served a twenty year prison sent in the State
Correctional Institution in Dallas, Pennsylvania for child molestation. So he
eventually does get locked up, and it's just crazy. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:21:30):
Now, I had never heard of the Rainbow Family of
the Living Light, so I had to go look it up. Okay,
I had too, because I guys, I thought it was
a church. I thought it was gonna be a cult,
and I was so wrong. So here's what the official
thing is.

Speaker 3 (01:21:46):
It's kind of cold.

Speaker 2 (01:21:47):
The Pennsylvania Rainbow Family of the Living Light refers to
the Rainbow Family of Living Light, a counterculture group that
hosts a yearly large scale gathering and now gaining National
Forests in Pennsylvania. The group is a loosely organized collective

(01:22:07):
of people focused on peace, love, and spiritual expression who
come together to create a temporary, non commercial community in
the national forest. Now, guys, sounds like a sick, say cult,
but they only meet once a year. Can you be

(01:22:27):
a cult if you meet once a year?

Speaker 3 (01:22:29):
Of course? Of course. Okay, then they're a cult.

Speaker 2 (01:22:33):
Now, this will just tell you they're back. They found
themselves in child molestation scandals, which got detailed in Vanity Fair.
M hmm, okay, so we're just gonna leave it there,
and we're just gonna say it was Ramos's type of people.

Speaker 3 (01:22:56):
Oh, yeah, it was. I don't like them, hieat neither.

Speaker 2 (01:23:02):
I know you're pouring more and I'm like, why didn't
I bring the bottle in here with me?

Speaker 3 (01:23:05):
Don't worry a long eight thirty in the morning. Tomorrow
it's gonna be like you. I don't want to get
started on how my day's gonna be tomorrow. I'd make
it much sleep today, but was gratilator.

Speaker 2 (01:23:15):
That's okay, we'll all be watching you.

Speaker 3 (01:23:17):
I'll just do it. Yeah. So, by nineteen ninety, Grebois
was deputized as a deputy state Attorney General in Pennsylvania
to help prosecute a case against Ramos for again, you
guested sexually abusing children. Man, what a guy? What a mentor?
This guy was.

Speaker 2 (01:23:37):
Guys they do it once, they do it twice.

Speaker 3 (01:23:39):
Yeah, and they don't stop, no matter how many, how
much you want to convince yourself that they do, they don't.
It never happens anyway, greb Bla also hope that this
would help him obtain more information about Aton's case. Now.

Speaker 2 (01:23:55):
When he was first questioned by gur Buah, Ramus stated
that on the day when Eton disappeared, he had taken
a young boy back to his apartment and touched him inappropriately.
He claimed, after the boy's boy said, I quote wasn't interested,
Ramos walked him to the eighth Avenue subway and sent

(01:24:17):
him on his way to his aunt.

Speaker 3 (01:24:20):
Again, that's pretty good circumstantial evidence, okay. Now. Ramos also
said that he was ninety percent sure it was the
boy whom he later saw on television. As a matter
of fact, when as for more details about the boy's appearance,
Ramos replies referenced Aton. For example, when asked how tall

(01:24:44):
the boy was, Ramos responded, well, how tall was eight
in pets, He even said that the boy could have
been Aton. Pets. Yeah, you guys, this is what he
is telling Grabois. Hello, guys.

Speaker 2 (01:25:02):
The FBI looked into it. There were no other reported
disappearances or sexual assaults of a young boy that doubt. Now,
that's not to say that a young boy didn't tell true.
Not to say that.

Speaker 3 (01:25:17):
Thank you, yeah, oh, thank you for the supers. Thank you.
I'm gonna need it for all the coffee in the morning.
I'm like, oh my goodness.

Speaker 2 (01:25:30):
No, you just need to start with midday moscato.

Speaker 3 (01:25:35):
Ye I didn't even notice that capin in this picture?

Speaker 2 (01:25:38):
Oh did you not notice that?

Speaker 3 (01:25:39):
No, it says, imagine for our listeners, imagine having a
courtroom sketch of yourself framed. That's a boss right there,
and this guy indeed does have a courtroom, which is good.
Good courtroom sketch. By the way, that's impressive. Love that.
Where were we? Oh? Yeah? So in nineteen ninety one,
when Ramos was incarcerated, a jail house informant told Greboa

(01:26:02):
and the FBI agent Mary Gallagan that Ramos had told
him he knew what happened to Aton. Ramos even drew
a map of Aton school bus routes, indicating that he
knew that Aton's bus stop was the third one on

(01:26:22):
the routes.

Speaker 2 (01:26:26):
I'm holding it all in for next week. I'm really
trying to hold it all in for next week, Okay,
so infuriating. Every year, on Aton's birthday and the anniversary
of his disappearance, Stan pat sent Ramos a copy of
his son's missing child poster, and on the back he
typed the same message, what did you do to my

(01:26:47):
little boy?

Speaker 3 (01:26:49):
Yeah? In a special feature on missing children, the New
York Post reported on October twenty first, nineteen nine, that's
thirty years. Twenty years.

Speaker 2 (01:27:04):
Don't make don't we don't do math here at your
crimo one time.

Speaker 3 (01:27:07):
It's twenty years that Ramos was the prime suspect in
Aton's disappearance. And it makes sense why he would be hello,
I mean, how many flashing light signs do you need
about this freaking guy?

Speaker 2 (01:27:23):
I mean, my my criminal board would have him on there.

Speaker 3 (01:27:27):
Oh yeah, and I would have space on all time square.
That's what I would be doing. His face goes up.
There's not everyone, stay away from this guy. He sucks.
He's a horrible human being. Now, Ramos, though, has always
denied that he killed Aton, and no charges were ever
brought against him because, according to the Manhattan DA's office,

(01:27:50):
they declined to prosecute Ramos because of the quote absence
of physical evidence. Now make sure you all put a
pin in that right there, for when we get to
part two of the story. Remember, they didn't want to
prosecute this guy with all the red flags because there's

(01:28:11):
no physical set.

Speaker 2 (01:28:13):
It is so hard to not go there.

Speaker 3 (01:28:17):
Okay, I've been writing it all day, so it is fresh.

Speaker 2 (01:28:19):
Shut out. I was at it. I'm like, oh, Terry, yeah,
don't bring that into tonight.

Speaker 3 (01:28:25):
Now.

Speaker 2 (01:28:26):
Aton's body was never found, Okay, he was declared legally dead.
On June nineteenth, two thousand and one. Stanton Julie Pates
filed a lawsuit against Ramos in New York State Court
for wrongful death. Ramos refused to answer questions under oath
because yeah, anyway. In two thousand and four, the court

(01:28:48):
ordered a judgment in favor of the Pates and awarded
them two million dollars in damage, which, guys, we know
they're never going to connect I mean collect no that face,
I'm sorry, all right, every time I.

Speaker 3 (01:29:01):
Look at it, he's so cute, so cute, and you
know they were never going to collect that money. Okay,
but Ramos, you guys, what released from the Pennsylvania prison
on November seventh, twenty twelve, and also remember that day
for later. November seventh, twenty twelve, twenty twelve is a
big old year. Look at that, Oh God, look at

(01:29:23):
that guy that this fucking Santa Beard face. Oh I
hate that so much. Sorry, listeners, I'm see on our
YouTube channel looking at this picture of this guy.

Speaker 2 (01:29:34):
Knowing I hate to say this, I try not to
be overly judgmental on appearances. I am run if you
see that week I run run.

Speaker 3 (01:29:48):
Anyway. So he was released from prison in twenty twelve,
only to be immediately arrested on a Megan's law violation.
Now see you, when you're a sexophon there, you have
to tell the police where you're going to be staying.
And he said he'd be living with a cousin in
the Bronx, but it turned out that address was incorrect

(01:30:11):
and the cousin had no interest in having him as
a house guest. Can't blame them, Good for them. But
he was eventually released during the COVID nineteenth pandemic, and
the sex Offender Registry shows that his current address is
in the Philippines. If you know to place a lot

(01:30:36):
of people like this like to go.

Speaker 2 (01:30:38):
To, and the Philippines states they don't let in sex offenders.

Speaker 3 (01:30:45):
There you go, there, you go, there he is.

Speaker 2 (01:30:48):
There's a problem there.

Speaker 3 (01:30:51):
Yeah, ask yourself, how did he get into the Philippines. Yeah,
do they know? Do they know?

Speaker 2 (01:30:59):
They probably don't because this guy is he when he's
I hate that he even got out my very first
time I went to the Philippines because I've been there
for business. They didn't even check my passport. They just
opened it and stamped it. Uh huh, didn't even look.
I could have been using your past or Laman, they

(01:31:20):
would have never noticed.

Speaker 3 (01:31:21):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (01:31:23):
So there's also a disturbing allegation from Ramos's childhood.

Speaker 3 (01:31:29):
He was accused by.

Speaker 2 (01:31:30):
His brother Ronaldo of him being sexually sexually abusing him
when he was a boy. Now, guys, however, we're gonna
say the brother's not a totally reliable witnessed, okay, because
he was charged of child molestation as well. And guys,
it's not unheard of for abuse victims to become abusers themselves.

(01:31:54):
It's not the norm or the status quo.

Speaker 3 (01:31:58):
It does happen, does But it's oh that's his brother.
Oh good, I'm so glad. We're putting these fuck faces
pictures up for everybody. Fucking ye. So you see them, run, run,
keep your children away from these people, give them away anyway.

(01:32:19):
For what it's worth, here is the claim Rinaldo Ramos
told Florida cops after his own May two thousand and
one arrest for sexually assaulting four boys, that his older
brother abused him as a child, as written in a
document from the Broward County Sheriff's Department. So this is

(01:32:40):
in the record right now.

Speaker 2 (01:32:42):
Ronaldo's first, you know, he made a spontaneous statement regarding
how his brother killed that eight and pays, the document states, okay,
adding that Rinaldo told them that he had learned his
sibling was a suspect while reading an article in a
magazine the library. Guys, I don't think it looks like

(01:33:04):
a god's hanging out in the library to say.

Speaker 3 (01:33:08):
Now.

Speaker 2 (01:33:09):
Ronaldo then said it reminded him of himself because he
was the same age as Pate when his brother molested him.

Speaker 3 (01:33:20):
That's pretty convincing, just Sam. Yeah, Well, when Rinaldo Ramos
was approximately ten years old, Jose Ramos took him behind
a white castle and forced Rinaldo to perform oral deeds

(01:33:47):
on him and a friend, the document says, quoting Rinaldo's
interview with officers. When Ronaldo resisted, Jose Ramos slammed a
large rock on the top of his head. Knocking him out.
And you guys, if you don't believe that, well guess
what rinaldo then showed the detectives a scar on the

(01:34:10):
right on his right forehead area. At least that's what
the document says. I mean, I don't know why we
don't believe this guy. I mean, they're both pieces of shit.
It's say it makes sense, it does, it mean means plausible,
It seems reasonable. This guy's not gaining anything, His brother's
not even being charged or arrested for this, So what

(01:34:33):
would be the point of buying agreed now?

Speaker 2 (01:34:41):
On May twenty ten, Manhattan District Attorney Cyrus Vance Junior
officially reopened eighton Paates's case, and on April nineteenth, twenty twelve,
the FBI and the NYPD investigators began excavating the so
hoped basement of one twenty seven b Print Street, which

(01:35:04):
was near the Patess home.

Speaker 3 (01:35:06):
Yes, this residence had been newly refurbished shortly after Aton's
disappearance in nineteen seventy nine. So that's a big decade
jump there, but important to know, and we'll definitely get
into this more in the second episode, I promise, okay,
And the basement had been the workshop and a storage

(01:35:29):
space of a handyman, the handyman that gave a time
that dollar that we talked about earlier. Now, though after
a four day search, investigators announced that there was nothing
conclusive found the handyman Oath Oath Neil Miller had been
questioned by detectives for the whole previous year, but he

(01:35:53):
denies having to do anything with his disappearance. But as
I said, we will explore oth Neil Miller more in
part two. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:36:04):
Now, almost two years to the day, on May twenty four,
twenty twelve, New York Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly announced that
a man was in custody who had implicated himself in
Aton's disappearance.

Speaker 3 (01:36:18):
Also, I want to know, that's the day before what
National mistakes Children's Day, the day Aton disappeared. Coincidence it, guys.

Speaker 2 (01:36:29):
Yeah, I'm that person that tries to give people the
benefit of the doubt.

Speaker 3 (01:36:36):
I don't.

Speaker 2 (01:36:36):
But it doesn't necessarily pass the Smith Sniff test to me.
But a law enforcement official identified the man as fifty
one year old Pedro Hernandez of Maple Shade, New Jersey,
and said that her Nandez had confessed.

Speaker 3 (01:36:55):
Yeah, and interestingly, the whole world Collft collectively asked who
the fuck is Pedro Hernandez? Because it's been forty years,
who is this guy? Now? With that, that is where
we're going to end the story right there. I know,
list Mars, you're so mad at me right now. Well,
you're gonna have to listen to part two. That's right,

(01:37:17):
because you, Terry and I are going to ran a lot. Okay,
you guys, because this is bad news bears next.

Speaker 2 (01:37:24):
Week happens, I'm gonna have to pregame. I'm gonna have
to have a full glass before because it's we.

Speaker 3 (01:37:31):
May have to dedicate a whole episode to our rants. Yeah,
it's bad now, very very upset. I'm so upset.

Speaker 2 (01:37:38):
Oh it is. But before we go, we're not just
gonna jump off here, okay. In the story, yes, we
do want to take a few minutes to talk about
how Aton's case changed law enforcement's response to missing children
and the countless lives that I believe have been saved

(01:37:59):
because of his disappearance and the changes that have come about.

Speaker 3 (01:38:03):
Agreed. Agreed. Each year, approximately four hundred and sixty thousand
children are reported missing each year, you guys, based on
data from This is a Problem Missing Children's Network, which
averages to several thousand cases per day. Many missing children

(01:38:26):
are found and partially due to the reforms following Aton
Pats's nineteen seventy nine disappearance. Oh it's always the stuff
that really chokes them when something horrible happens, and good
things just come.

Speaker 2 (01:38:43):
Wow, to help enlighten you a little bit. The reason
why the change comes about. Law enforcement gets together when
big events like this happen. They do what is called,
oh my god, it just popped out of my head,
a debrief meeting to talk about what went wrong, what
they could have been done better, and what they learn

(01:39:05):
to help in the future, and all of it's documented.
So I try to think every time a bad tragedy happens,
I try to hold on to think, okay, think of
what's going to come out of this to maybe prevent
it from happening or help us get past it.

Speaker 3 (01:39:22):
Now.

Speaker 2 (01:39:23):
Pates was one of the first milk carton kids Okay,
appearing on milk cartons to help find missing children.

Speaker 3 (01:39:30):
Now.

Speaker 2 (01:39:31):
It was a method that was later criticized for its
limited effectiveness. According to the National Center for Missing and
Exploited children. However, they do say it paved the way
for improved efforts for like the Amber alert system in
nineteen ninety six. But I want to tell you, guys,
I lived in Houston, Texas. I saw flyers with this

(01:39:54):
milk carton kid photo. So I have a problem with
the fact that they say it was and widespread enough.

Speaker 3 (01:40:02):
Well, why was this so criticized Because if it's limited,
at least it was something exactly that wasn't there.

Speaker 2 (01:40:08):
But you're criticizing it now because we now live in
the twenty four to seven media society and we stop,
we don't stop to think, Okay, we're talking about nineteen
seventy nine, we didn't have cell phones. This to myself,
so I do not approve of that criticism. And I

(01:40:29):
am a huge advocate supporter honestly.

Speaker 3 (01:40:33):
Think anything you're doing that's advocating for finding missume people
who gives a shit?

Speaker 2 (01:40:37):
Exactly?

Speaker 3 (01:40:38):
Who gives a shit? If you're not out there doing
it yourself and you're just sitting over here to playing
on your keyboard, go fuck yourself. I don't have any
social media, so you can't really come after me, but
go fuck yourself. That's a problem.

Speaker 2 (01:40:49):
I don't care, And I mean it was something.

Speaker 3 (01:40:52):
The only problem I have with this picture and y'all
can come at me later why people think.

Speaker 2 (01:40:56):
They have to eat cookies with milk. But we're just
going to go on because that is just disturbing in itself.
Oh now that's where the hate comments are going to come.
That it's going to be about the cookies and milk,
not about love. Get a glass of water, soda now.

Speaker 3 (01:41:14):
Another was to educate children with the dangers of being taken. Now,
this is when I can kind of criticize here, but
also I don't think it should be criticized because it's
important too.

Speaker 2 (01:41:25):
No one what we knew at the time.

Speaker 3 (01:41:27):
One such program was the international program known as Stranger Danger,
which was created by the Global Children's Fund nonprofit organization.
And I have my qualms with it, but again, it
was the first of its kind and bringing awareness of
these things. It was important. It was something wasn't perfect,

(01:41:49):
it wasn't entirely accurate, right, but it did help. So
what do I have to say on that? Who cares? Now?

Speaker 2 (01:41:57):
Stranger Danger warns that a known adults may pose risk
to children. Now, guys, This message was and is widely
taught through books, films, and public service announcements. The primary
target of Stranger Danger campaign is child sexual abuse rather
than kidnapping for ransom kind of thing, but media coverage

(01:42:24):
has increased public anxiety by presenting strangers as potential padophiles guys.
Evidence shows that child sexual abuse occurs more often within
families or people you know.

Speaker 4 (01:42:43):
Every day, sixty kids some runaway on a lot of
kidnapped by strangers or even by people they know. Almost
twenty thousand kids, twenty thousand kids, one kid at a time.

Speaker 3 (01:43:01):
Maybe your kid on your street, just like Jenny. Oh boy,
what a time to be alive.

Speaker 2 (01:43:10):
I mean, rough of gruff. Oh my god, there it is.
Elbow feet said what I was getting ready to say.
It's in Kim. Do you know where your children are?

Speaker 3 (01:43:18):
Pim? Do you know where your children are?

Speaker 2 (01:43:21):
And I get it was a knee jerk reaction to
things that happened, but you know what, I would rather
you do something and maybe it's wrong and you make
a mistake, then sit back and not do a damn thing.

Speaker 3 (01:43:37):
I don't even think they did anything wrong necessarily, it's
just I mean the part that most of it comes
from people you know, but I don't think.

Speaker 2 (01:43:44):
We didn't have statistics and we didn't have all the
Mathew math.

Speaker 3 (01:43:46):
Then it's true. Well people, it wasn't talked about you guys,
it's a whole different time. Well, the fact that people
are even talking about bad shit happening kids like this
brand new. Really, it seemed like now as a result
of actual statistical data that I was talking about in
the early two thousands, these campaigns adapted to place greater

(01:44:10):
emphasis on the risk post by visuals known to the child,
while still educating children and parents on the need to
be wary of strangers because and again I'm not knock
getting the stranger danger because guess what, in the modern time,
we still do that. How do we do that with
our kids in the internet. I tell my kid, my

(01:44:31):
little Lama all the time. You don't know these people
on the internet. They are strangers. Do not tell them anything,
do not give them any information. They are stranger danger.
We just look at it differently now in our modern time,
but it still applies. So I don't criticize stranger danger
too bad.

Speaker 2 (01:44:50):
I will tell you monkey butt those of you that
have been here. That is my granddaughter. She was six
or seven and we were at walle and somebody said
hello to her, and she goes stranger, danger.

Speaker 3 (01:45:06):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (01:45:07):
And the gentleman, he was an older man, he was
probably like ninety. He looked at her and he goes, oh,
and he introduced himself with his name and told what
military branch had been part of, and he was a veteran.
He goes and now I'm not a stranger, and she
goes danger. I think of it still to this day

(01:45:27):
because I'm like, hey, if something fills off, just because
they introduce themselves does not mean they're no longer a stranger.

Speaker 3 (01:45:36):
Yeah, but you know, and law enforcement's response to missing
children has also changed. It's it's not still not the greatest,
but it is significantly significantly without it doubt much different
than at least I think it is. I don't know,

(01:45:58):
you're the one with a missing people. I'm not going
to speak on that.

Speaker 2 (01:46:03):
But now, in nineteen seventy nine, police in New York
City had a limited ability to communicate with other law
enforcement agencies about the case. Guys, that was not just
New York. That was everywhere. Everything was on paper. Cops
wrote things down in their notebooks. So let's not slam them.

(01:46:25):
They didn't have databases and stuff. Now, while we the
tools in place today helped quickly find and rescue misson children,
it's more of a commonplace that you have those, including
national and international registries for missing young people and emergency
abduction alerts. At the time of Aton's disappearance, the landscape

(01:46:50):
for missing and inducting children, they would to say it
was less coordinated.

Speaker 3 (01:46:55):
Guys.

Speaker 2 (01:46:55):
It was non existent, right, it was non exist. It's
not like you could just get back in your squad
car and pick up your cell phone and call queens.

Speaker 3 (01:47:06):
Well hell, I mean, we just learned that even within
its own precinct, it they had like they were going
to call another precinct, get out of here. So oh boy.
All right, well I think with that, let's get to
our closing thoughts for this show because we're a little

(01:47:26):
past but uh yeah, that's okay. It's a first show back,
and what a banger we started out with, right, So
I'll go first with my closing thoughts for part one here.

Speaker 2 (01:47:39):
Now, this.

Speaker 3 (01:47:41):
This case, I didn't really know too much about it.
I knew the basics, but that was about it until
I saw an article a couple of months ago or
literally a month ago, which you'll learn about in the
next episode, and I was like, holy shit balls, I'm
going to need to learn more about this, but I
can tell you in race searching this this case brings

(01:48:02):
out a spectrum of feelings for me. You know, child
cases are always the worst. You know, their lives ended
before they even had a chance to begin them, and
many of them having to see the darkest side of
humanity and what they have to offer before they pass on.

(01:48:23):
And I just I think that is truly one of
the saddest, most appalling things ever. Now, you know, I
also say here in wonder, like what would Aton have
grown up to be? Like? You know, he'd be I
don't know how old right now because I'm not the
best a myth so somebody did the.

Speaker 2 (01:48:39):
That for me. But he would be like in a
sixty two years younger than me. So I just had
fifty five, it'd only been fifty three. Don't you try
to put me at sixty Bach would be fifty three.

Speaker 3 (01:48:51):
Currently, by the way, he would have been a grown man.
And what would you have become? Would you become a
comic book author and write the Adventures of Johnny France America?
Because I hope, so I hope he would have I
opened a different alternate reality. That's exactly what he grew
up to do, because in this reality, it was just
it was very unfair, very unfair what happened to him,

(01:49:13):
you know. And would him and little Jeff Limbeck still
be best seats forty six laters years later?

Speaker 4 (01:49:20):
You know?

Speaker 3 (01:49:21):
Is there the things that I don't know these people,
but I still think about that, you know? And then
then I get pissed about Jose Ramos, all right, and
how that guy was able to reap havoc on lives
of numerous children across America. I know he only got
charged for some of them, but we all, we all know,

(01:49:42):
right allegedly, I'm gonna fear rize there were numerous children's
well before he ever ever got in trouble.

Speaker 2 (01:49:50):
Oh and he hasn't stopped. No, he hasn't stopped. You
don't just wake up one day.

Speaker 3 (01:49:56):
And how many charges there were numerous charges we didn't
even mention. I brought against him, but then dropped because
the victims didn't testify, which I'm not judging them. These
are young children, they were boys, which was a very taboo,
and that would have been very taboo. I mean, look

(01:50:16):
what they did with the Menindez and that was the
early nineties, let alone in the seventies and eighties. Get
out of here, you know. And I don't know that
guy is in the Philippines, and I hope no more
children are harmed because of him. But if he's still
walk in this earth, I guarantee you there are still
charge children being harmed because of that man. And I'm
not ashamed to say that. And I must say, knowing

(01:50:38):
what happens next in this story, it fills me with
disappointment and rage that perhaps justice was never truly had
for sweet little Aton Pets, and that his family is
having to entur all of this pain for all of

(01:50:59):
these years, you know, the wounds ripping open again and
again every couple of years, even now, as recently as
July twenty twenty five.

Speaker 2 (01:51:10):
So I just I mean, it's two years younger than me,
It was born two years after me. That is my
entire life that this family has had to deal with this,
That's an entire lifetime.

Speaker 3 (01:51:24):
People, And I got a lot of opinions about the
next this portion here the problem many and.

Speaker 2 (01:51:30):
My f mom, it's a problem Now, this case has
always haunted me. Like I said, I was nine when
he went missing and I saw his face on a
milk carton.

Speaker 3 (01:51:43):
Flyer.

Speaker 2 (01:51:44):
Guys, I was that obnoxious kid, I told my mom.
I was like, I don't ever want to be that
kid on the milk carton, mom. And it wasn't because
I hated milk, because I don't drink milk, never.

Speaker 3 (01:51:55):
Have, never will.

Speaker 2 (01:51:57):
It was it's it's it's me. I'm sure that this
kid just disappeared. Okay, So needless say, it never left me.
And then when you guys wanted to cover it, I
was like, oh, it brought up a lot of stuff,
but I believe in my heart that his disappearance has

(01:52:19):
helped changed so many things about missing kids. So I
try to look at that, Okay. I also think his
face beyond a milk carton made everyone stop and think,
oh shit, that could be my kid, that could be
my reality. And in my case, it was like, oh shit,

(01:52:41):
that could be meat, you know, and it made us
realize that children are not always safe. And guys, I
do midday missing. It's not just children. It's not just children, okay,
but children are the innocence, they are the innocence. They

(01:53:01):
are not making decisions that cause this to happen domino effect,
and unfortunately there are bad people out there who want
to take in her kids. So this this breaks my heart.
But I also think talking about this case we help
honor him and how we can keep advocating for a safer.

Speaker 3 (01:53:25):
World for children. Agreed.

Speaker 2 (01:53:30):
Agreed, So yeah, let's wrap up because yeah, I ulloa. So,
like I mentioned at the top, you can join me
at cc Wining Company for that life podcast recording because,
like I said, we're in coirking the chilling details behind
Bastrop's most infamous murder. I mean, I knew about this

(01:53:51):
case before I moved to Austin, so I knew about
this when I lived in Houston, so it is a
big deal. Tickets are now on sale, but if you
are one of our members on YouTube, you get to
watch the live stream yourself.

Speaker 3 (01:54:09):
And because Wah will be there to do the audio,
we should have a really good audio, really good audio
this time.

Speaker 1 (01:54:15):
I love that.

Speaker 3 (01:54:16):
Now you guys, before we go. If you like what
you heard today, please be sure to follow us on
all of our socials and subscribe to our YouTube channel.
It is free, or if you're listening to our podcast,
please follow, download, give us a rating, review, whatever, whichever
platform you're on, the whatever they ask for, just do
that because all of that helps us tremendously and getting

(01:54:38):
our channel out there. And again it's free, so please guys.

Speaker 2 (01:54:45):
But next week we're going to be covering part two
of this story, okay, and we're going to focus on
Pedro Hernandez, the man that eventually was convicted for the
murder of Aton. But's guys, it's not as simple black
and white, pink or red as it seems. No, I mean,
is he even the real killer? And guess what You're

(01:55:08):
gonna have to join us to find out.

Speaker 3 (01:55:10):
And I can promise you. I can promise you there
will be numerous Lomula rants like I am already ready
to rant right now.

Speaker 2 (01:55:17):
I'm already ready to rant, but I will.

Speaker 3 (01:55:20):
Hold off till next next Thursday. Now, if you need
more of Terry True Crime and Now, you can always
find us doing something on our True Crime and wind
Time YouTube channel. While Terry is making your way back
to the screen, and today was her first big night,
she is doing things in baby steps, so there will
be no midday missing until September first, but I almost forgot.

(01:55:42):
Tomorrow night, a pm Eastern, seven pm Central, we are
having a two thousand subscribers celebration party show. I don't
know what we're doing. Somebody's gonna plan it while I'm
sitting here in court all day tomorrow. But it's gonna
be a great time. It's for everyone, so make sure
you come, bring your part pants, your party drinks. It's
gonna be a good time.

Speaker 2 (01:56:02):
Break your ideas because as starts tomorrow.

Speaker 3 (01:56:06):
Yes, speaking of you, guys, Couge cordat lama Is Beck
and we are geared up for our next live trial coverage,
which is Florida versus Donald Donna Adelson. I'm gonna pronounce
names right this week. She's a pos I do not
care if you pronounce her name right. Just call her Donna.

(01:56:27):
That's right. It starts tomorrow morning. I will be live
at eight forty five am Eastern for the next two
weeks until like five or five thirty in the afternoon.
It's gonna be great. No, it is gonna be such
a highly entertaining trial, you guys, if you don't know it, though,
witnesses are characters themselves. We got a family murdered conspiracy.

(01:56:50):
Oh my goodness, it is something and you're unsure. If
you're unsure who the Adolsons are, I did a ketchup
stream this week as we were waiting for the jury
to be selected. They were selected tonight at six point
thirty around there. I watched it all day. It was crazy,
So be sure to check that out and get caught up.
I do say their names wrong, That's fine, leave a

(01:57:12):
comment if you want to. It's been a week. Okay,
it's been a week. People should spell their names how
they're pronounced. That's my only PSA for the day. But anyway,
go check that out. Who knows, maybe even some of
my besties and others might join me for these trials,

(01:57:32):
so you never know who might be on with me
at any given time. Now, if you haven't yet, please
like this video, subscribe and hit the notification bells so
you'd all miss when we go live or drop a
new episode. And Terry, is there anything you would like
to say before we go and sign up?

Speaker 2 (01:57:51):
I feel more human today than I have in probably
seven weeks. I mean, you know, I just had surgery
three weeks ago, but we also know there was kinney
Stone's tooth all on that and there. I am so
happy to be back, and I am just very grateful
for everybody who hauled the fork down and did all

(01:58:13):
of this stuff. And I'm glad I'm up so I
can watch the Adolpson trial because Donna, I need her
to give down.

Speaker 3 (01:58:23):
It's oh, I need her to get down.

Speaker 2 (01:58:26):
I mean, I'm a matriarch, but I'm sorry, she gives
matriarch a bad name.

Speaker 3 (01:58:32):
I'll just say this if whoever's listening, even if you're
not very into trials, if you were into the Karen
re trial, this trial too, is also going to be spicy.
Oh there, you got the same issues, but just as
equally like what what's Yeah? What is happening right now?
It's a lot of that. It is.

Speaker 2 (01:58:51):
I mean it's gonna be just like what Charlie's is, Like,
did that really just happen?

Speaker 3 (01:58:57):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:58:57):
Am I watching TV? Is this a big drama?

Speaker 3 (01:59:00):
No? It was real. I mean even today watching jury's
selection was entertaining. I didn't go live with it because
I had a lot of stuff I need to get done.
Since I'm gonna be sitting here in this chair every
day for like the next two weeks. But his lawyer
or our lawyer, I mean Donna's lawyer. He seems like
a really nice guy, but both him and the prosecution
sounded like they were teaching law one oh one to

(01:59:21):
the jurors. It was very it was very interesting. So
I can't wait for tomorrow. I'm excited about it. So well,
I'm so glad you're back, Terry. I know everyone else
as well. We are so happy. You're irreplaceable. Okay, you're irreplaceable.

Speaker 2 (01:59:37):
I know.

Speaker 3 (01:59:38):
I'm tired of holding things up. So I'm glad you're back.

Speaker 2 (01:59:41):
Yeah, so I appreciate it. I'm back, and now you
can I will start picking up my slack that you
picked up. But I will say it's perfect timing for
the trials starting tomorrow, and we have our two thousand subscribers.
It's going to be a full day. But what a
Friday to kick off the week again.

Speaker 3 (02:00:00):
Oh my god, I just realized I'm going to be
streaming for like fourteen hours.

Speaker 2 (02:00:04):
I said, you might want to start maybe mix just
get the coffee, put the Kolua in it, and the
Carolines are Bailey's up until maybe one o'clock and then
start the midday Moscata.

Speaker 3 (02:00:15):
Well, I just found out the big brother is doing
the wall comp which is an endurance competition. They could
be on that wall for hours, so I of course
have to be able to watch that.

Speaker 2 (02:00:25):
So oh my gosh. Okay, Well, I unfortunately am still recovering.
I will be going to bed all right.

Speaker 3 (02:00:33):
Well, thank you everyone for listening and supporting us. It
means the world to us. Until next time, take care
of your mind, take care of each other, and never
stop asking the hard questions. And until next time, go
forth and be amazing. Bye.

Speaker 2 (02:00:49):
Everybody, guys, to stay safe or not. Watch out for crime.
But most importantly, if you see something, say something, prayer,
enjoy your wine.

Speaker 3 (02:01:03):
Okay, are we good now? Yes? All right, all right
bye everybody, have a good night. M hm

Speaker 2 (02:01:10):
M m hm

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S5 E23 - The Milk Carton That Changed America - The Etan Kalil Patz Story Part 1

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}S5 E23 - The Milk Carton That Changed America - The Etan Kalil Patz Story Part 1