S5 E24 - The Milk Carton That Changed America - The Etan Kalil Patz Story Part 2 - True Crime and Wine Time

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Hello, Hello, Hello, hello, hello.

Speaker 2 (00:18):
I put pink on just for the show tonight because
I didn't wear pink today all day.

Speaker 1 (00:22):
You're gonna warm pink all week, rumor has it, I.

Speaker 2 (00:25):
Haven't, and I guess I'm not sure. I'm okay, but
I at least put pink on tonight. And I'm not
feeling the pink, but I put it on hoping that
it would seep into my blood.

Speaker 1 (00:37):
I just thought your blood was pink instead of red.

Speaker 2 (00:39):
I thought it was too, but apparently this week my
blood doesn't know what's going on. But hello, everyone, Hello,
I've here, I'm alive.

Speaker 1 (00:55):
Yay.

Speaker 2 (00:56):
Are you still wearing your cute little socks?

Speaker 1 (00:59):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (01:00):
Are they helping?

Speaker 1 (01:01):
I think? I don't know. I haven't taken them off yet,
so I think so they don't hurt as much as
they have the last two days, So I do think
they've been.

Speaker 2 (01:13):
Cute.

Speaker 1 (01:14):
Lama, old lady socks.

Speaker 2 (01:15):
Hey, you know what, they're not old lady socks because
they're really cute. Nobody would know what kind of sucks
they were if you didn't tell them.

Speaker 1 (01:23):
That's probably true. My outfit today is hilarious because I
have on I've been wearing the dress we wore for
our live Ohio show. And then I on my compression socks. Right,
the skirt doesn't like the dress doesn't go all the
way to the floor, you know, so then I have
these like Lama compression socks on with my like winter booties.

Speaker 2 (01:43):
Okay, the fact that you're wearing winter booties when it
was one hundred here today is just only.

Speaker 1 (01:52):
It was the highest sixty four today, maybe sixty seven. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:57):
See, I agree with Lady and Gray just say you
have cute socks. Nobody knows, right, and they aren't old
lady socks. That's right because you're not old, so they
can't be old Lady's song.

Speaker 1 (02:09):
It's true, that's right. I'm cool, cool you old person.
It's fine anyway.

Speaker 2 (02:14):
Hello, everybody that's in the chat, and mostly just I
want to welcome everyone to another episode of True Crime
and Wine Time, the podcast where we n cork the
most jaw dropping true crime stories while slipping something smooth
to take the edge off. And guys, I'm gonna just

(02:35):
warn you you want to pour a glass, lock your doors,
and we're gonna uncork the truth behind some of the
darkest crimes. But with this case tonight, this is going
to be the rant episode. I've decided this one and
the next one. If you do not like it hearing
me and Mama rant, might be a good time to

(02:58):
just hit mute.

Speaker 1 (02:59):
Yeah, but we're justified, you'll see as we tell the story,
don't I.

Speaker 2 (03:04):
Mean, I think we're justified. I don't want to tell
anyone else what to think.

Speaker 1 (03:08):
Yeah, that's true, I won't, but your opinion will be wrong.
Now I'm just kidding. I know, I'm just kidding. All
opinions are always welcome no matter what. Everybody's respectful here.
So anyway, before we get into it, thanks for watching tonight.
If you're watching us on YouTube, you guys know the drill,
press the like button. It lets everybody know that we

(03:29):
are live. Subscribe to our channel, and hip the notification
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We're going to be dropping some big news in the
next couple of weeks or so about membership perks and tears,

(03:50):
But lips are sealed, secret secret secrets. All you got
to do is click the joining button and pick which
here works best for you. And if you're listening to
this as a pod, please leave a rating, download a review,
whatever it is on whichever platform you use, do it.
It helps our little pod out tremendously. And it's free,

(04:12):
So we love that. I love free because I am cheap,
so i'd like love that free.

Speaker 2 (04:18):
Free is the best price.

Speaker 1 (04:20):
The best, the best, Terry. Why don't you tell us
what we will be covering?

Speaker 2 (04:25):
So tonight, guys, we are bringing you part two of
the Aton Paid Story, and I want to warn you
guys at a time that this episode will discuss child
sexual abuse, not in detail, of course, and if you
find that subject hard or disturbing orch triggering, then this
is not going to be the episode for you. And guys,

(04:47):
that is okay. We will see you next time.

Speaker 1 (04:52):
That's right, we will, And I can tell you there
will be rants, of a lot of them, a lot.

Speaker 2 (04:58):
I guarantee there will be a lot of rants tonight.
But before we start tonight's show, I want to tell
everyone that I will be live in downtown Bastrop, Texas,
which is this charming, little cute town outside of Austin,
on September thirteenth, at the CC Wine Co and Company.

(05:21):
My eyes are like so blurry.

Speaker 1 (05:23):
And as far as you went to the eye doctor today,
I did.

Speaker 2 (05:26):
I did, And I will be covering the Stacey Stits
murder along with the controversy around the conviction of Rodney Reid. Now,
this is a small venu, so it will be an
intimate conversation with friends and great wine and guys. Tickets
are on sell now and I'm kind of excited about

(05:50):
this because it's it's a case that oh it's a lot.
I mean, I even reached out to Kim Kardashian because
she met with Rodney Reid, not that she will ever respond,
but hey, you don't know if you don't.

Speaker 1 (06:08):
Ask, right, Harry will literally reach out to anybody. Yeah,
and I love her for it.

Speaker 2 (06:13):
And said, hey, would love to know why you think
he's innocent.

Speaker 1 (06:18):
So but and you guys, if you're members of our channel,
like I just talked about, you can watch this live show.
It'll stream to all of our members only. All of
our live in person shows get streams, So just another
another exciting reason to become a member of our channel
and help support us. There.

Speaker 2 (06:36):
So yeah, and there will be Q and A with
this because the venue is so intimate there in the
tasting room, it's gonna be there's gonna be a lot
of interaction, I think, so it'll be. It'll be fun
now and tonight. I am even drinking a bottle that
I got that I picked up from CC Wine and Co.

(06:58):
So it is I'm gonna have to put on my glasses.
I'm enjoying a Jean Laurent Blanc de noir champagne. And
they say it wraps around the palate with rich resonant fruit, honey, almonds,
dried flowers and spices, a hint of ash, smoke and

(07:19):
licorice developing the glass, adding feather complexity and guys, wow,
I taste a little bit of smoke, a little bit
of licorice, and I taste honeydew melon.

Speaker 1 (07:33):
Interesting. That is a lot of different flowers. That's interesting.

Speaker 2 (07:37):
I'll come at once. It's like it starts with one
and then it ends with another, and.

Speaker 1 (07:43):
I kind of like it. I love that. What are
you drinking to night? I'm drinking, Well, I'm almost done,
don't judge me. I'm drinking oliver Our Winery. Well. I
had a glass when I was in court earlier, and
then with dinner. So you know. Anyway, I'm drinking Oliver

(08:06):
Winery Camelot mead orange blossom honey wine. Whoa, that's quite
the sentence there. But it's quite delicious and smooth. I
think it's pretty good. But it is sweet. I don't know.
It tastes like it has the honey after no more
than orange. I don't really taste any of the orange blossom.

(08:28):
Oh I just sound sweet. I had this on my
floor like a dingus, and there was dog hair that
touched the bottom.

Speaker 2 (08:37):
Oh right, it's just hair. It's okay.

Speaker 1 (08:42):
Oh it's keta, you know, or in her hair. But no,
it's delicious. I think it's smooth. It's not too heavy.
I was like, oh, mead, but it's not. It is
kind of like a light meat now that I think
about it. If you ever had mead, which is it'll
do the job. Let me tell you what I haven't.

Speaker 2 (09:02):
I don't even know what meat is.

Speaker 1 (09:04):
Oh it's it's very strong.

Speaker 2 (09:06):
Its christ yes, Captain cork screw. She does like them
sweet ones, and the reason why is because she is
so sweet. She needs that to keep her sweetness level up.

Speaker 1 (09:19):
That's it. Yeah, I don't know what you're buttering me
up for but I like it all right? Well, you guys,
with that, let's do a quick recap of where we
left off in the Aton Pates story, shall we?

Speaker 2 (09:38):
Yes, so, guys. In our last episode, we covered the
disappearance of eight and Pates, who was six years old
and vanished on his walk to catch a school bus
in New York City. Aton's body has never been found,
and for decades this case went unsolved, though it was
no secret the main suspect was a man name who's

(09:59):
the Ramos, who at the time was in a relationship
with Sandy Harmon, who is a caregiver hired by the
Pates family. And that little face chest breaks my heart
every time I freaking look at.

Speaker 1 (10:13):
It, so so cute. I hate this story so much. Well,
after Aton's disappearance, he would go on and spend several
decades incarcerated for sexually abusing young voice, even though he
seemed like the most likely candidate, and Aton's parents won

(10:33):
a two point four million dollars wrongful death lawsuit against him.
He was never charged for the kidnapping and murder of
Aton Pates. Somehow, that's that's what happened. Now we show you.

Speaker 2 (10:48):
The difference between criminal and civil.

Speaker 1 (10:51):
Yes, very much.

Speaker 2 (10:52):
The burden of proof is much lower.

Speaker 1 (10:55):
That is true. Now, we ended that episode talking about
the re opening of Aton's case in twenty ten. What
is that forty years ish later? Thirty thirty ish? I
have to remember something like that. Anyway, they reopened the
case in twenty ten and eventually would lead to the

(11:16):
arrest of Pedro Hernandez. So let's start there.

Speaker 2 (11:22):
Will and just a reminder, we don't math here at
true crime in one time, okay. So during the two
thousand and nine Manhattan District Attorney's race, Aton's father, Stampads,
had met with different candidates, asking them to reopen the
case and bring justice to whoever kidnapped and murdered their
son so that they could get closure. Now, Stan and Julie,

(11:46):
after all these decades, still lived in their Print Street loft,
and they never changed their phone number just in case
their little boy called home.

Speaker 1 (11:57):
Oh guys, that just yeah, that's it breaks my heart too.

Speaker 3 (12:05):
Now.

Speaker 1 (12:06):
The winner of that election was Cyrus cy Vance Junior.
You captain word to Stan Pates and officially reopened Eaten
Aton Pates's case on May twenty fifth, twenty ten Vance
met multiple times with the patess and the former federal

(12:26):
prosecutor Stu Garbois, who we talked about in episode one
of the story, who was hell bent on Jose Ramos
being the man responsible for Aton's death led the cause.

Speaker 2 (12:40):
Yeah, but I also want to point out not only
was reopening Aton's case a campaign promise, so was the
calling for the mandatory videotaping of interrogations in New York
to prevent wrongful convictions, which, guys, is very important to
keep in.

Speaker 1 (12:58):
Mind, super important, super important.

Speaker 2 (13:03):
Yes, you are so right. Their life is for ever
on hold waiting on that call. I mean, I think
of all the people who don't even have home numbers anymore,
and they keep it just in case, just in case.

Speaker 1 (13:19):
Well, with this renewed investigation, the focus was not on
Jose Ramos. Instead, it was on oath Neil Miller. Now,
he was a carpenter with a basement workshop located between
the Pates's apartment and the school bus stop, and he
had done work in the Piates home. Interestingly enough, his

(13:42):
workshop floor had been reconcreted around the time of Aton's disappearance.
What h Miller himself and his workshop had never really
been significantly investigated. One reason investigators from the time recall
was that Julie Pates described him as a family friend. Okay,

(14:06):
and you see that little stairwell there where that bikers
parked down there, there was his workshop. I think for sure.

Speaker 2 (14:14):
Yeah, Now, I do want to say, guys, we have
to remember when this was okay, So no judgment on
the family or anything, because back then we trusted our neighbors,
we trusted family friends. It wasn't until later that people
started realizing that sometimes the evil is right there. Now. Yeah,

(14:39):
as to say, we're finding most of the time right
with him being a family friend. He was also a
familiar person to Aton. The night before Aton disappeared, Miller
spent approximately forty five minutes alone with Aton in the
basement workshop. He later told the FBI that he had
been changing out of his work clob when he gave

(15:01):
a dollar to Aton in exchange for helping him with
the carpentry. He also admitted to having sexual intercourse with
a girl who was approximately ten years old in nineteen
seventy nine. Sure, okay, if that's not enough red flags
for you, guess what, who's a romos? Not only frequented

(15:22):
Miller's workshop and did odd jobs for him. He had
a freaking key to that basement as well.

Speaker 1 (15:30):
Uh huh Yeah.

Speaker 2 (15:32):
Can I just say there are so many people in
this story, in this case that are perverts, Yeah, I
mean all in one little area. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (15:49):
Yeah, it's that's part of the reason why this also
makes me fired up. But we'll we'll get there, we will.
It definitely gets there now. On April nineteenth, twenty twelve,
the FBI brought a scent dog to Miller's basement at
one to seven B Prince Street, near the Pates's home.

(16:11):
The dog was trained to detect the odor of human decomposition,
even after many years. The scent dog indicated by barking
that he detected the scent of human decomposition in two
areas of Miller's basement. The next day, Miller was brought
to the basement and told that the dog had alerted
to the scent, to which he replied, what if the

(16:35):
body was moved? Ib eaten?

Speaker 2 (16:39):
Not even when it finds that question? Odd? Who asked
that question?

Speaker 1 (16:42):
Right? Right?

Speaker 2 (16:45):
I mean, who asked that question now? Also, because this
was down in twenty twelve, what if it was an
Aton's body. What if it was someone else's I thought
the same thing. Okay, yeah, Now for several days, authority
stop traffic in Lower Manhattan, and I'm going to tell you,
Lower Manhattan, I bet you was pissed. Just gonna say it,

(17:08):
because if you've ever been to Manhattan, you do not
need traffic being stopped. Now, Miller's former workshop was excavated.
Despite the scent dog's positive identification, investigators announced that there
was nothing conclusive found and off nil Oathnel Miller was
never charged in connection with Aton Pates's disappearance. Oath Now

(17:33):
Miller died January twenty fifth, twenty twenty, at the age
of eighty three.

Speaker 1 (17:39):
I'm sorry. I just do not feel like they investigated
him nearly enough at all to just be like, nope,
it's fine, we're done here.

Speaker 2 (17:48):
I like I said, what if it was another You
do not get dcomp smell unless there was dcomp there.
Something happened.

Speaker 1 (17:58):
Yeah, yeah, so that passes me off. Now. The excavation
at one twenty seven B Prince Street had drawn an
extensive amount of media attention for good reason. This is
a huge, high profile case here we have going on now,
after seeing the press coverage. A man named Jose Lopez,

(18:24):
who lived in New Jersey, reached out to investigators because
of rumors that his brother in law, Pedro Hernandez, was
involved in the disappearance of Aton Pates. There's a lot
of people with the same name in this too, like
many of our cases.

Speaker 2 (18:40):
Now, I just want to remind you, especially because I
do Mid Day Missing, that it is tips that help
solve cases, even many years later, even if it's just
a rumor, even if you're not sure, call in the tip.
So I mean, I say, good job for calling in
about your brother in law. Just don't do it if

(19:00):
you're mad at somebody and trying to get them in trouble.

Speaker 1 (19:02):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (19:04):
Now, just a few days later, almost two years of
the day, Aton's case had been reopened. On May twenty four,
twenty twelve, New York Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly announced that
a man was in custody who had implicated himself in
Aton's disappearance. Okay, guys. A law enforcement official identified the

(19:28):
man as fifty one year old Pedro Hernandez, a disabled
former construction worker of Maple Shade, New Jersey, and said
that he had confessed Wow okay, getting ready for the rants.

Speaker 1 (19:42):
I just kind of fell into their their lap like that.
Oh my goodness. Okay. Well, now, up until this point,
nearly thirty years since Aton's disappearance, Pedro's life was quiet
and arrest free. It's important. Pedro was one of twelve

(20:03):
children born into Puerto Rican to a Puerto Rican immigrant
family who moved to the United States in the early seventies.
He grew up in New Jersey attended Woodrow Wilson High School,
but he did not end up graduating.

Speaker 2 (20:18):
Now guys, in nineteen seventy nine, Pedro Hernandez was eighteen
years old, living in New York City and working at
a little neighborhood bodega right beside a Ton's Best Stop.
Now Pedro was interviewed in nineteen seventy nine along with
other employees at the bodega, which had also been thoroughly searched.

(20:38):
That he was never identified or treated as a person
of interest or a suspect.

Speaker 1 (20:46):
Yeah, and he's eighteen years old, so anyway. He ended
up leaving New York City and returned back to New
Jersey and found work doing construction in nineteen ninety three,
though during his career he got injured and was in
and out of medical facilities for years because of that.
He was also very religious, always sitting in the second

(21:09):
row at church and attending prayer groups regularly.

Speaker 2 (21:14):
Now, Pedro got married to Daisy Rivera, and I'm not
sure if that's her maiden name or she got remarried,
but they had two children together. Now, their relationship was
rather volatile, and at one point she had obtained a
protective order against him.

Speaker 1 (21:32):
Yeah, she says, quote. I divorced him because he was
too possessive, too violent, disrespectful. Rivera said during a series
of interviews with Pro Public of it to him, everybody
as a whore, everybody's I don't think I could say
that word on YouTube. Slander or what's a slur for

(21:54):
a gay man? Everybody's a lesbian. He was so judgmental.
I think he had a mental problem, but I just
dealt with it because I thought it was normal. You
never beat me like with a bloody nose in black eyes.
She said. He was more verbally abusive.

Speaker 2 (22:11):
Okay, mimes are like clowns. They are just as bad. Okay,
just saying mimes. Yeah. No. Now, after their marriage ended,
Daisy was constantly taking him to court over him not
paying child support. Now, guys, Pedro doesn't sound great, But
let me tell you, Daisy was a little spicy too, Okay.

(22:36):
When Pedro remarried in nineteen eighty eight to a woman
named Rosemary, who would still be his wife at the
time of his arrest, Daisy showed up uninvited to the
wedding as a reminder to Pedro about his responsibilities to
their children. Yeah, and Daisy, ma'am, this is not a

(22:57):
good look for you. And I'm gonna say it's not
the role model you want to be for your kids
in my opinion.

Speaker 1 (23:03):
Yeah, no, that's not great.

Speaker 2 (23:06):
That's all creepy.

Speaker 1 (23:08):
Yeah, and very selfish, I think. I mean, come on, anyway,
Pedro and Rosemary would go on to have a daughter together, Becky,
who was twenty three at the time of his twenty
twelve arrest. Rosemary would later tell a psychiatric expert hired
by the defense about her and Pedro's relationship over the
last twenty five plus years. Pedro did abuse cocaine in

(23:33):
the late eighties and early nineties, and this led to
psychological and sometimes physical abuse by Pedro. I mean it
usually does it usually does.

Speaker 2 (23:45):
And I'm going to say a lot of people during
that time were using cocaine.

Speaker 1 (23:50):
I mean, it was the eighties, it was so.

Speaker 2 (23:53):
She said every time Pedro would grow frustrated or angry,
he would hit me in the head. She also talked
about how one time he punched her and wrapped a
vacuum cord around her neck. Oh, Pedro. There was also
a time in two thousand and three where they when
they were in the car together and Pedro purposely tried
to wreck the car, telling Rosemary, I'm going to kill

(24:18):
us all I hate my life.

Speaker 1 (24:21):
Yeah, kind of befed up. Yeah. Well. Rosemary also told
the psychiatric expert that after Pedro stopped doing cocaine, their
relationship improved significantly, which go figure, that makes sense. Her
attorney told the public that she continues to support him

(24:43):
a thousand percent and believes that it is ridiculous to
have charged her husband with the murder.

Speaker 2 (24:51):
Now. While Pedro had done many bad things, Rosemary did
not think he was a child killer. As a matter
of fact, Rosemary helped the defench as much as she could,
including appearing at several hearings in the case.

Speaker 1 (25:05):
Yeah, even Pedro's ex wife Daisy insisted repeatedly to Pro
Publica that Pedro never talked about hurting a child when
they were together. Quote if he said, listen, Daisy, I
have a confession to make. I killed a six year
old child. I have it in my heart that I

(25:26):
wouldn't have gone forward with the marriage. She said, I
wouldn't have proceeded with the marriage. Why would you hurt
a six year old child. Now, these statements Daisy made
to Pro Publica were made before Pedro's first trial, which
again I think is important to note.

Speaker 2 (25:44):
So now, in a felling from the state regarding bail,
the prosecution makes a claim about possible sexual abuse towards
a family member when he was a child. They do
not go into any further details other and a footnote
that says that Pedro admits the behavior and that a

(26:04):
family member and neighbor confirmed it, but the alleged victim
denies it. I mean, sounds kind of thin. Pedro's attorney,
Harvey Fishbeine fin so that Pedro had told him that
the allegations arose from his childhood when he and relatives
were sleeping in the same room.

Speaker 1 (26:26):
Yeah, it doesn't really sound like Uh, the other guys situation. Yeah, no,
you know, and there's nothing confirming it, So you're upsessed
with the way.

Speaker 2 (26:40):
Terry says further, I'm glad I can entertain.

Speaker 1 (26:45):
I love that. I love it too. Now, Pedro did
have an extensive history of mental illness and a low IQ,
all of which doctors documented. Before nineteen seventy nine, doctors
said that he had obsessive thoughts, hallucinations, and borderline impaired intelligence.

(27:09):
Doctors had diagnosed him with a myriad of disorders, including
psychotic disorder, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, chronic mental illness, and memory impairment. Then,
between nineteen ninety two and twenty fourteen, various intelligent tests
placed Pedro's IQ between sixty seven and seventy six, meaning

(27:36):
that Pedro was functioning at the lowest level of intelligence
compared to other people. Which let's make a note of
that for later.

Speaker 2 (27:46):
And I said in the chat, maybe he used the
dreads and the cocaine to self medicate.

Speaker 1 (27:52):
Oh for sure, I mean that's very common. For sure,
it didn't.

Speaker 2 (27:55):
Help, didn't help.

Speaker 1 (27:58):
That's what you're suffering from, going to make things worse. Yeah,
but for sure.

Speaker 2 (28:03):
Yeah, Now, in the decades that followed his nineteen seventy
nine interview with police, Pedro allegedly told multiple people, including
various church members at a religious retreat, his neighbor Mark Pike,
and his first wife, Daisy, that he had killed someone
in New York City, but none of them ran to
the police. I just need to throw that in there.

Speaker 1 (28:25):
We'll get more into that later, But either Mark Pike
or Daisy rare Vieira gave any credit to Pedro's statements
that they made to them. And again, none of these
people he supposedly shared this information with reported them to police.
So these would have been statements from thirty freaking years ago. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (28:47):
Now, Based on the tip from Pedro's brother in law,
investigators executed a self described tactical plan to interrogate Pedro.
On May twenty, twenty twelve, at seven forty five, four
or five police cars pulled up outside of Pedro's home
in New Jersey, where he was living with his second wife.

Speaker 1 (29:09):
Yeah. NYPD detectives Jose Morales and David Ramirez identified themselves
to Pedro as from the NYPD Missing person squad and
told him that his name came up in an old
case and that they wanted to speak to him about it.
Pedro agreed and accompanied them to Camden County Police Department.

(29:31):
I don't ever do that.

Speaker 2 (29:33):
I'm like, don't ever do that. But before Pedro got
into one of the police cars, the police patted him down,
asked him to empty his pockets and place his possessions
in a box in the trunk of the car. Now,
he asked the police if it would be a long
time because he needed to take medication at noon, and

(29:53):
a detective was sent to his house to pick up medication. Oh, said,
that's so so Weed.

Speaker 1 (30:01):
I'm surprised they did that.

Speaker 2 (30:02):
To be quite honest with you, I mean, I kind
of am too. But furthermore, we don't know.

Speaker 1 (30:09):
Now, I want to stop right here and say that.
In New Jersey, where Pedro was initially being questioned, taping
interrogations in homicide cases has been required by law since
two thousand and five. This was because of the growing
movement supported by experts and numerous others in the legal

(30:30):
field who believe that fully videotaping and interrogation from the
minute a suspect enters the room to the minute they
leave was the single most important factor in preventing false
confessions that lead to wrongful convictions, just putting it out
there in New Jersey.

Speaker 2 (30:51):
Into legal Now Pedro is about to be interrogated by
New York detectives and eightya and it would be argued
in court later that the law doesn't technically apply to
them since it's not their jurisdiction. But guys, I still
find it shady as hell when the whole room is

(31:11):
decked out or ready to go. I mean, especially in
a case like this.

Speaker 1 (31:17):
Agreed, agreed, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (31:21):
Now, the interrogation began at about eight ten am. Now
why the detectives questioned Pedro about his upbringing. Other officers
purposely walked people from Pedro's past within his view to
frighten him. And it was two hours before the detectives
brought up a ton paates.

Speaker 1 (31:43):
Guys.

Speaker 2 (31:44):
I know, please use all kinds of tactics when interviewing people,
but I'm sorry, I don't think you should be able
to walk people by because you don't know if one
of them is triggering. If I just.

Speaker 1 (31:57):
Don't like it, I just don't hoping it was triggering,
that's all you're hoping it was. Now, Manhattan Assistant District
Attorney Armand Durisstanti arrived around ten thirty am, observing the
interrogation via a CCTV monitor. Darra Santi asked an investigator

(32:19):
if the interrogation was being video recorded. The investigator replied
that it was not, and asked Duris Stanti, sorry, I
cannot say his last name. I apologize, but if he
wanted the recording device in the room turned on Daras
Stanti responded by saying, why don't we just wait to

(32:40):
see what happens? Okay, Okay, that makes sense.

Speaker 2 (32:46):
Bullshit. I'm sorry, this is bullshit. If you had the
ability to record, should damn well record? And you're selling
New Jersey turf and it's the law.

Speaker 1 (32:59):
Yeah, and you're the Manhattan Assistic Assistant District Surney. Okay, okay.

Speaker 2 (33:08):
Now. Around noon, detective Morales brought in Pedro's medication after
he placed a fentanyl patch on his chest and took
some pills. He explained to the detectives why he was
taking medication. He discussed it had been diagnosed with and
treated in the past for schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, and other

(33:29):
mental illnesses. Now, guys, I have to say I have
a little confused about the ventyl patch. I know he'd
been injured, but the only time I've ever had a
fentyl patch was after cancer surgery, and it is for pain.
So why would he be prescribed this because it doesn't
just last a couple of hours, it lasts several days.

(33:50):
And why the fudge sickles would you question someone while
under the influence of fentanyl?

Speaker 1 (33:59):
Agreed?

Speaker 2 (34:01):
I mean, guys, I was just taking pain meds after
my surgery just several weeks ago. There were times you
could have gotten me to confess to anything. I don't remember.
A couple of days I would have probably confessed to
killing JFK.

Speaker 1 (34:15):
Yeah. The fact that they go on to question him,
watching him put the patcheck, like, come.

Speaker 2 (34:21):
On, and he tells you he's schizophrenic, he's bipolar. No, yeah.

Speaker 1 (34:28):
Now, At around one pm, Pedro said that he had
told the detective everything that he wanted to go home.
The detectives responded by leaving and sending an NYPD detective
James Lamondola, who focused on Pedro's childhood and cyclical patterns
of abuse. Pedro began to sob complained of stomach pains,

(34:52):
and eventually laid on the floor in the fetal position
and started to shake again. He asked to go home.

Speaker 2 (35:01):
I mean, guys, excuse me. If he has to go
home and he's not under rest, I thought you had
to fucking let him leave.

Speaker 1 (35:10):
Yeah, and that's why you don't get in the cop
car with cops unless you're under arrest. All right, you
drive yourself to the police station. Say if they say no,
you can't, then guess what, They're probably gonna try to
arrest you.

Speaker 2 (35:22):
So soon Pedro became angry and accuse Lemondola of trying
to trick him. As Pedro cried, Lemondola continue to tell
him that everybody needed to know the truth and that
the truth had to come out. Now, I don't like
this guy.

Speaker 1 (35:41):
Oh yeah, I don't like any of these guys. Guy.
We do like on Top X for the supersticker. We
love on Top X, don't ye. Thank you for the
supersticker on Top and your support. You're amazing and and
I don't know who the mean mommy is, but we're
all the good one. Why didn't his office call a lawyer?

(36:04):
Oh we're yeah, we'll get we'll get there. We'll get there. Yeah,
so at around two pm? No, wait, is that where
we are yeah, okay. At around two pm, detectives Morales
and Ramirez returned, joining Lamondola in the interrogation room. They

(36:25):
continued asking him if he had anything to tell them
about what happened in nineteen seventy nine. Pedro asked them
if they were trying to pin what happened to that
kid on.

Speaker 2 (36:36):
Him, guys. Pedro then repeated for a third time that
he wanted to go home. The detectives told him, Hey,
we have a few more questions to ask you, and
then after that he could leave. Pedro then asked to
speak Tolla's wife, to which Detective Ramirez replied that they

(36:57):
wanted to hear what he had to say first.

Speaker 1 (37:02):
Yeah. At that point, after more than six hours of interrogation,
Pedro Hernandez told the detectives for the first time that
he did it. According to Detective Lamondola, Pedro said that
he had seen Aton Pate standing outside the bodega and
asked him if he wanted a soda, that Pate said

(37:24):
yes and accompanied him into the basement of the bodega.
That Pedro choked him and put his body in a
garbage bag, and that he placed the bag in a
box and left it in a trash area around the
corner from the bodega. Hernandez could not explain his motive,
but he denied it was sexual.

Speaker 2 (37:47):
Guys, I just want to point out about this timeframe
that Fentol patches kicked in. Okay, just want to point
that out now. Immediately after obtaining Pedro's confession, I have
read him a six question miranda warning. You know that
thing that you're supposed to advise on when you first
get there, not after at this point eighty eight or

(38:12):
sisturist dunty, I don't know. I don't like you. I
think you're prick. So who was still observing from another room,
requested that the video feed be recorded. Guys, this is
sketchy at shit. You read the miranda warning at the beginning, Okay,
And guys, just reminder if any police want to question you,

(38:36):
ask for an attorney, even if you're not guilty, because
we see way too often how sketchy some law enforcement
are in agencies. Now just think of the Commonwealth and Proctor.
If you want a recent reminder of shit that law
enforcement likes to pull.

Speaker 1 (38:54):
M this one's a good old reminder too, because this
wasn't too long ago, kids.

Speaker 2 (38:59):
I know.

Speaker 1 (39:00):
So they've been tit talking since about eight ten am,
and their recording begins at two fifty three pm with
Detective Ramirez asking Pedro the final miranda question. Now that
I've advised you of your rights, are you willing to
answer questions? After Detective Morales interjected with obviously, yeah, is

(39:24):
that right, Pedro responded yes.

Speaker 2 (39:29):
Guys, let's stop and think we know where his IQ
level is. This man had no clue what the hell
was going on.

Speaker 1 (39:41):
I don't think so.

Speaker 2 (39:44):
In my opinion.

Speaker 1 (39:45):
Now.

Speaker 2 (39:46):
Detective le Mondola then asked Pedro to repeat the statement
he had given before being mirandized, instructing him to start
from the beginning and tell us again exactly what you
just told us about what.

Speaker 1 (40:00):
Yeah, it's funny how that happens. Huh. When Pedro did
not immediately reply, the detectives began to prompt him. Pedro
then provided an account almost identical to what he told
the detectives before receiving his miranda warnings.

Speaker 2 (40:17):
Now, the detectives once again presented Pedro with Aton paids
missing person's poster and asked, is this the guy? When
Pedro said that it was the detectives handed him a
pin and asked him to write a confession on the poster.
Pedro asked the detective how to spell choke before writing

(40:40):
on the poster, I am sorry I choke him and
signed his name.

Speaker 1 (40:47):
This visses me off because this was for pr uh huh.
That's all this was for, was for pr or rest
propaganda for the courtroom. To put it right now there
like this. This is the kind of bullshit that pisses
me off. Yeah. Right, and again, this man, I forget
how old they said, he went fifty one?

Speaker 2 (41:08):
Yeah, is that what they said?

Speaker 1 (41:10):
He doesn't know how to sell the word choke.

Speaker 2 (41:12):
Guys, that tells you. I mean Scorpion three says. Back then,
a lot of New York City was on the take.
This changed all of New York City kids. I remember
the movie Big they did a milk carton in all
the New York City mom's went nuts.

Speaker 1 (41:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (41:30):
I mean they were not doing this for justice. They
were not, in my opinion, and I have goosebumps and
I hate it. I just hate all of it.

Speaker 1 (41:42):
Well, at around at four pm that day, detectives finally
allowed Pedro to call his wife, Rosemary and his daughter Becky.
He told them that quote a long time ago, he
killed a child, a boy, and that he did not
know why he did it, and that he would be

(42:02):
in jail for the rest of his life.

Speaker 2 (42:07):
The detectives then drove Pedro from the New Jersey Precinct
to Soho. At around ten pm. They arrived at the
corner where the bodega was located in nineteen seventy nine.
Pedro pointed out where he had first seen a ton
paid and identified two different street addresses where he might
have left the box containing the garbage bag.

Speaker 1 (42:29):
Shortly after, at about eleven PM, the detectives then drove
Pedro to the Manhattan DA's office. And he's still not
arrested yet, I don't think No. For the next three hours,
Pedro intermittently slept on the couch and ate in the
presence of police officers. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (42:53):
Now, At around two am, Pedro was taken to an
interview room where he was interrogated by eighty A. Durisdanti
off and on until a little after seven am. Now
Durisdanti did advise him of his Miranda rights and then
told Pedro Pedro, sorry, I know that you spoke to
detectives yesterday. I want you to understand that the statement

(43:16):
you're making here to me today has nothing at all
to do with that statement. I want you and I
to start brand new. Okay, guys, I need to remind
you he still has on that fentnel match that works
for several days. And once again, how is this okay?
This Ada should know better? M H.

Speaker 1 (43:37):
I agree. Pedro once again stated that he killed Aton,
although certain details deviated from his prior confessions from earlier.
He also made several additional statements that were inconsistent with
one another. For example, although Pedro had told the detectives
that he could not remember what Aton was wearing, he

(44:00):
told Dorastante that Aton had a jacket that was black
or blue.

Speaker 2 (44:08):
Now, near the end of the interrogation, Doristante asked him
about his mental health. Pedro explained that his family had
a history of mental illness and that he was bipolar
and schizophrenic. He then told Dourrostante a detailed account of
seeing and talking to a vision of his dead mother's ghost.

(44:28):
He said, however, that he was unsure if this actually
happened or if it was his imagination.

Speaker 1 (44:36):
Yeah. At the very end of the interrogation, Pedro asked
him about his right to counsel. That led to the
following exchange that Terry and I are going to role play.
I am going to be Hernandez and you are going
to be Dorisante. Okay a yes, all right, Now, can

(45:00):
I ask you a question? Now? I know you read
my rights. Now, when you read my rights, you said
that if I need an attorney. Does that mean when
I was talking to you that if I didn't want
to answer you, yes, Oh that's what it meant.

Speaker 2 (45:19):
Yes, Oh that if you know, if you need you
can have an attorney. If you want an attorney.

Speaker 1 (45:27):
I would like to have an attorney to represent me,
you know, when if I were to go to court.

Speaker 2 (45:35):
Okay, right, if you were to go to court, yeah,
I want that.

Speaker 1 (45:41):
Right.

Speaker 2 (45:42):
No, you will have an attorney to represent you if
you go to court.

Speaker 1 (45:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (45:48):
But the question, the question that I was asking was
whether you wanted one now.

Speaker 1 (45:54):
When I was talking to you, yeah, no, because I
don't have nothing to hide no more at this the
whole well, yeah, you'll have one of court shame.

Speaker 2 (46:12):
That is deceitful, and I just yeah, so at this point,
at this point, guys, approximately twenty four hours had a
lapse since the investigators first arrived at Pedro Hernandez's house.
Okay now, Pedro was immediately arrested. Following his arrest, Pedro

(46:34):
was taken to Bellevue Hospital for psychiatric treatment.

Speaker 1 (46:41):
After a month later, in June twenty twelve, Pedro was
transferred to Rikers Island and was evaluated by doctor Flavia Roboti,
who does not have a good Google review. By the way,
Pedro told it doctor Rabadi that he had her child
and that he had confessed this to his first wife, Daisy.

Speaker 2 (47:05):
He also told her that at the time of Aton's disappearance,
he had command hallucinations telling him exactly what to do
and started hearing other voices talking amongst themselves.

Speaker 1 (47:19):
Now.

Speaker 2 (47:19):
Doctor Robodi's assessment was that Pedro needed intensive psychiatric treatment,
and she referred him to the Mental Observation Ward at
Riker's Guys, this fucking nightmare. I'm just thinking you're not
getting a lot of help. Pedro was then evaluated by
doctor Michael First, who diagnosed him with schizotypical personality disorder.

(47:45):
Doctor First testified that the disorder was marked by an
inability to differentiate between what is going on in your
mind versus what is occurring in the external world, because
I know when I want to confession by somebody, I
want them to not be able to know the difference
between two.

Speaker 1 (48:06):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (48:07):
Now. During a multi day evaluation, Pedro stated several times
that he approached a little boy outside of the bodega,
lured him into the basement, and choked him. He insists
that there were other people in the basement with him,
including older, gray haired people wearing nightgowns like a nursing home.

Speaker 1 (48:30):
Guys, it's been a little little crazy kelly. As time
passed after his arrest, Pedro began to express doubts about
whether the events he had confessed to had actually occurred.
Doctor First testified that changes in Pedro's confessions, along with

(48:53):
his varying degrees of doubt, were the results of a
weakening in his delusional conviction. All right, because he's trying.
He's starting to being a little lucid, and he's like,
wait a second.

Speaker 2 (49:05):
Yeah, And one thing I wish we knew, and I
tried to do a little side research. Were they giving
him antipsychotic meds.

Speaker 1 (49:15):
He was on anti psychotic meds when he was arrested.

Speaker 2 (49:17):
Yes, I know, but were they changing them once they
evaluated him, Probably started doing something to probably.

Speaker 1 (49:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (49:25):
Now, according to doctor First, Pedro's delusional conviction was particularly
strong after his arrest in May twenty twelve, such that
he then completely believed his statements were true. However, within
a few months, his confidence in those memories had notably diminished.

Speaker 1 (49:45):
Yeah, while Pedro was in jail, his attorney, Harvey Fishbein,
was doing everything he could to get his confession thrown out. Hell,
Pedro hadn't even been indicted.

Speaker 2 (49:58):
Yet, which just makes my head sped.

Speaker 1 (50:04):
Mm hmm. Yeah, haven't even been indicted.

Speaker 2 (50:07):
So you see, prosecutors made a highly unusual agreement with
Fishban They agreed to hold off on going to the
grand jury to give both sides more time to investigate,
and according to court records, the two sides were in
frequent contact with one another for the next six months.

Speaker 1 (50:30):
Yeah. If that's not showing a rush the judgment, I
don't know what is, because I've never heard of a thing.

Speaker 2 (50:37):
Arrest and ask questions later and then we'll go to
the grand jury.

Speaker 1 (50:41):
Yes, that's exactly the game that they're playing now. Fish
Bean would share all of Pedro's medical history with the prosecution,
as well as all the reports from their psychiatric experts
who examined him and his alleged confession.

Speaker 2 (51:00):
So I just have to say, Scorpion three, I am
glad that you and your brothers and Scissors all survived
because you're right, son of Sam Slasher. New York City
was crazy in the seventies. It was crazy in the seventies,
went wild time man now. Fishbeing even made a fancy

(51:24):
formal presentation to DA sy Vance's office that fall, going
over everything as to why Pedro shouldn't be charged. As
a matter of fact, someone who knew about the meeting,
said fish Being came out of it confident that he
had persuaded the prosecutors to use their discretion and abandon

(51:46):
the case. But Fishbeing never heard back from the DA's
office and starting for the chopping sound guys instead.

Speaker 1 (51:57):
On November fourteenth, a New York grand jury indicted Pedro
Hernandez on charges of two counts of second degree murder
and one count of first degree kidnapping. I can't even
believe it at this point, but okay, quote, this indictment
is the outcome of a lengthy and deliberative process involving

(52:23):
months of factual investigation and legal analysis. Eric Dugan, a
spokesman for Vance, said in announcing the indictment, let me dogson.

Speaker 2 (52:37):
I'm sorry, but h Eron Dugan. I know you're just
doing your job and you're reading what you were told
to read. But all of that is lies in my opinion,
So we believe the evidence that mister Hernandez killed Aton
Pates to be credible and persuasive, and that his statements

(52:58):
are not the product of any mental illness. The grand
jury has found sufficient evidence to charge the defendant, and
this is a case that we believe should be presented
to a jury at trial. Excuse the hell out of me, Okay, sure,
I mean did you get your medical degree? Are you

(53:21):
a psychiatrist? Because for you to make that statement that
is not a product of any mental illness bothers me,
like Kelly b Yeah, just bothers me. Well, how much
thinner he's getting. I don't know if you've noticed in
the progression of the pictures.

Speaker 1 (53:40):
Oh yeah, when he was indicted. He was indicted in
twenty twelve. Yeah, we should have known that in seventy nine.
We should Yeah, at this point, you know, I'll give
the nineteen seventy nine I will tase some grace, I suppose,
but this is not okay. You know better, you know better?

(54:05):
Where were we? Okay? So Fishbean had said in a
court document filed a month later. Quote In the six
months since mister Hernande's arrest, the NYPD and the New
York County District Attorney's Office have conducted an intensive investigation
attempting to collaborate mister Hernande's statements. However, I am told

(54:27):
by the District Attorney's Office that they have found nothing.

Speaker 2 (54:34):
And my thought is when mister Pates went and talked
to the DA, you know, when they were going to
get elected and all that, they saw this as an
easy way to say I fulfilled my campaign promise, We
reopened the case, and look we caught the guy.

Speaker 1 (54:56):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 2 (54:59):
So now Fishbein has said any such attempt will only
cause more pain and disappointment for the Pates family and
the city that was consumed with their tragedy. The really
sad part of this case, Fishbein said, is that it
will take time, it will take money, and it will
not tell the city what happened to Aton Pates.

Speaker 1 (55:22):
And he wasn't wrong. Pedro would continue undergoing psychiatric psychiatric
exams by experts on both sides. He met again with
doctor First in December twenty fourteen. He's been in prison
or jail now for over two years, when within the
same day he stated both that the people in the basement,

(55:45):
including some kids and some business people, some dressed up
in hospital clothing, elephant colors, clowns, terry cloth type people
all over the place.

Speaker 2 (55:58):
Yeah, because I don't know what eleph colors are, and
I'm an elephant girl, so I don't know. But I'm
going to tell you that basement is creepyer shit. I
don't like basements. It's nothing like what we saw in Ohio.
That basement was cool. This kind of creeps me out.

Speaker 1 (56:17):
Sad. Yeah, I think I thank you. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (56:21):
Now. In twenty fourteen, while detained at Riker's, Pedro provided
similar conflicting statements to doctor Michael Welner. Pedro stated that
he had not seen the face of the child he choked,
but that he nevertheless recognized his photograph on the news.

Speaker 1 (56:39):
All Right, we have a confession clip.

Speaker 3 (56:42):
I went down to the basement. He followed me into
the basement, and whatever happened. There is choking. It was
something that just happened, like quick. I don't know why
I did it.

Speaker 1 (56:58):
I don't know how you have Does you talk about it?
Are you surprised?

Speaker 3 (57:09):
I don't even know if he happened.

Speaker 1 (57:16):
Yeah, I think that's the end of that. There yet
said he doesn't even know if it happens again. A
man whose reality he doesn't know what is real and
what's not real the majority of the time. But according
to the state, there's nothing wrong with him. He's fine, guys,
he's fine. He's fine. All right. Let's get into my

(57:40):
favorite part here, the problems with Pedro's confession. Now. Alison Redlick,
who is one of the nation's top experts on false
confessions and is a professor at the State University of
New York, has identified several factors that occur and produce
false confessions.

Speaker 2 (58:02):
Now, A suspect with a very low IQ yep Pedro's.

Speaker 1 (58:06):
This is between sixty seven to seventy.

Speaker 2 (58:09):
Six check, a suspect with a history of mental illness.

Speaker 1 (58:14):
Check Pedro had decades of diagnosis and had been taking
antips psychotic medication for more than ten years.

Speaker 2 (58:24):
A crime that has gained prominent media attention.

Speaker 1 (58:29):
Aton's case was headline news and all over the internet
because of the FBI dig in off Neil Miller's former
basement workshop just the month before.

Speaker 2 (58:41):
Check a long interrogation where issues of fatigue or desperation
can play a role.

Speaker 1 (58:49):
His interrogation and confession was over a non stop twenty
four hour period, and he complained of being in pain,
being tired, and wanting to leave.

Speaker 2 (59:02):
Check check, check that one gets three checks from me now,
and a confession that, however compelling, is at odds with
some known facts about the case.

Speaker 1 (59:15):
For example, it had been established that investigators never believed
that Aton made it as far as the bus stop
where the bodega was. None of the bodega employees saw
him there either, So check yeah, check now, guys on

(59:37):
top X, thank you. I'm a super sticker again. I
appreciate you. You are so generous and kind.

Speaker 2 (59:44):
You are so generous and kind. Thank you. It's because
Lama is a celebrity, now right, Okay, Now I'm going
to just say, everybody enjoy this. Jesse Lee, Hunis Koo Johnson.

Speaker 1 (01:00:06):
Good job.

Speaker 2 (01:00:07):
How did I do there? He'd agree it as a
founding figure of the field of forensic psychology and an
expert on the reliability of confessions, determined that without cooperating evidence,
relying on the statements Hernandez made to police and prosecutors
would be profoundly unsafe.

Speaker 1 (01:00:31):
I wonder why, HM, Let's talk about a few more
discrepancies in Pedro's confession. Okay. Pedro said during his confession
that after he strangled Aton, he tossed the boy's backpack
behind a freezer in the bodegas basement, but that backpack

(01:00:52):
was never found. Former NYPD officer Robert McKenna helped in
the search for Aton ben night of his disappearance, and
said that cops were all over the bodega that night
because it was one of the only places you could
get coffee and how to pay phone. Because it's nineteen
seventy nine, y'all. He said that the area behind the

(01:01:14):
freezer in the basement would most assuredly have been searched.
So yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:01:22):
Now. In his confession, Pedro said that he had been
bringing store products from the basement when he lured Aton downstairs.
Some have said this possibility was rather improbable. Apparently, the
owner of the bodega, who had long passed was vigilant
about who had access to the basement. There was a

(01:01:44):
lock on the sidewalk, trap doors and a locked gate
underneath those. No one but the owner had keys to
the basement, and the owner was very protective of the
beer stored in there, that he accompanied anyone who went in.
Has also been said that it was highly unlikely Pedro

(01:02:04):
would have been stalking anything because he would have been
buttering roles instead.

Speaker 1 (01:02:10):
Hmm, that's pretty damning.

Speaker 2 (01:02:11):
That's pretty damning.

Speaker 1 (01:02:15):
I mean, it makes sense, right, the basement is from
like the sidewalk, like the beer.

Speaker 2 (01:02:22):
Really, can we just save the wine?

Speaker 1 (01:02:24):
But you know, that's some pretty damning reasons of why
Pedro's story simply couldn't have happened the way that he
said that it did, and there doesn't seem to be
any other opportunity for him to create it differently. Now,
let's circle back to these so called witnesses that Pedro
apparently confessed to. We hadn't really gotten into them yet,

(01:02:47):
but we're about to. Now let's start with Tomas Riviera. Now,
he was the leader of a charismatic Christianity group at
Saint Anthony of Padu. I don't know what something I
think we have a picture of it too. A Roman
Catholic church in Camden, New Jersey, Okay. He indicated that

(01:03:09):
Pedro publicly confessed in a prayer group in the early
eighties to having sodomized a kid in the basement of
his workplace and then stabbed the child many times with
a pointy stick. Rivera said that when he heard the
confession that he immediately told Pedro's family, who told him

(01:03:33):
they would report it to the police. One of Pedro's
sisters claims she told police in Camden, New Jersey twenty
five years ago that Pedro admitted to killing a little boy,
but there is nothing backing up her claims.

Speaker 2 (01:03:47):
So I looking at her photo. I'm not judging, but
I'm not. I'm sorry. Guys, if the leader of church
hear something like that, they are mandatory reporters clergymen, unless
it's told to them and a confessional type thing. Why

(01:04:12):
wouldn't they go and tell? Why would you just tell
the family because the family's not gonna go tell.

Speaker 1 (01:04:18):
Yeah, well, let's learn some more about comas.

Speaker 2 (01:04:22):
Now, what Rivera said Pedro confessed to really doesn't match
with his police confession. Obviously, according to Rivera. Pedro said
he killed and chopped the boy into pieces. He said
he got him into the basement, chop him up into
pieces and put it into the trash bag. Rivera said

(01:04:43):
he was sad, like when you cry, start crying. It's
a motivation of repent. I guess what he did.

Speaker 1 (01:04:53):
Now. If his recollection isn't enough to make you question
his credibility, then maybe the fact that Tomas Riviera is
also a publicly registered sex offender who pled guilty to
two counts of sexual assault and one count of endangering
the welfare of a child. Riviera had at least two victims,

(01:05:18):
one six years old and the other nine. It really
really repulses me the number of child predators in this story.
It's disturbing. It's so disturbing.

Speaker 2 (01:05:32):
But yeah, it is so disturbing.

Speaker 1 (01:05:37):
It is. Yeah, and he's leading this this these church
prayer groups. Yeah, this fucking guy.

Speaker 2 (01:05:45):
And now now that I'm thinking about it, a prayer
group might be considered.

Speaker 1 (01:05:50):
Oh, I don't think that's predicted at all. Actually, even
if you confessed in the eighties, I don't think there
are mandated reporters in the eighties.

Speaker 2 (01:05:57):
Well, because there's still a lot more. Yes, Scorpion III,
it does get more crazy. Let's move on to Mark Pike,
Pedro's early eighties Camden, New Jersey neighbor. Pike's recollection was
that Pedro told him a story about a black child

(01:06:17):
who threw a ball at him when he was working
behind the counter of the bodega, and told Pike that
he had lost it strangled the boy, disposing of his
body in a rolled up rug that he hid behind
the bodega.

Speaker 1 (01:06:35):
Pike said he didn't believe the story at all, and
that Pedro was just trying to be a tough guy,
and he laughed at him even when writing up his report.
In twenty twelve, he stated that he had doubts that
this story was true. After Pedro's arrest, investigators went back
to talk with Mark and showed him a picture of

(01:06:56):
Aton Pates and then.

Speaker 2 (01:06:59):
He said, and I thought this must have been the kid,
because they came back and said he confessed, said he
confessed in a conversation he had with me. Pike said, obviously,
this confession by Pedro doesn't make any sense either. Aton
was obviously not black or even bi racial, and guys,

(01:07:21):
where would Pedro had even been able to discreetly find
a rug to put his body in, and once again,
everywhere around that bodega was searched.

Speaker 1 (01:07:32):
Yeah, sorry, doesn't check it. I don't think Mark, by
the way, I don't know anything bad about Mark. Just
he's like the only person in the story where I'm like, okay,
he sounds like just he's just been brought in. He
he doesn't seem nefarious to me. No, because he didn't
take it seriously.

Speaker 2 (01:07:50):
I don't like that red balloon or red ball in
that picture, just saying a little too much. I'm sea bells.
You see what I'm thinking about. I'm going pennywise down there.
Why are we showing that boy?

Speaker 1 (01:08:02):
Well, Jose Ramos was a five living in that dream pipe.
Didn't forget about that. But anyway, apparently it somehow made
a lot of sense to the state, as they had
Mark Pike testify before the grand jury that indicted Pedro
with a story that doesn't match up at all at all.

(01:08:25):
Hasn't testified you and I just thought of something.

Speaker 2 (01:08:29):
Did you notice Thomas Rivera it's the same last name
as Daisy's.

Speaker 1 (01:08:36):
Oh did they?

Speaker 2 (01:08:39):
It just hit me and I've been looking at this for.

Speaker 1 (01:08:42):
I don't know weeks. Did they are they related in
some way?

Speaker 2 (01:08:45):
Are they related some way? Or did she get remarried
to him?

Speaker 1 (01:08:51):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:08:52):
Question I'm gonna Okay, Kapan noticed it too, Okay, I'm
gonna have to that incidence there's so many names is
pretty popular. But you know what, in New York, I'm
going to just say their name's the same, they must
have been married, they must be related, because that's how.

Speaker 4 (01:09:12):
Much evidence she needed. And for this case case, that's all.
You know, It's enough they've been married this whole time.
That's all you need for for New York.

Speaker 1 (01:09:22):
Apparently, so he testifies before the grand jury, and then
there's Daisy rivieras Riviera. Speaking of Daisy, who I don't
think it's too unfair to say most certainly had a
contentious relationship with Pedro over the last several days. I mean,

(01:09:44):
she's one of the people that the police walked past
him when they were interrogating him. And Pedro's first statement
when he sees her walk down the police hallway was
is this about child support? When their children would have
been grown by this time. And he's like, oh, that
bitch hasn't in here for child support. Yeah, anyway.

Speaker 2 (01:10:06):
That tells you he has some trauma over child support
that she put him through. I mean, I get it,
but also get it now, let's sorry. She repeatedly told
Pro Publica that Pedro never talked of harming a young
child in his past. So I'm gonna let's pull up
her quote again from Pro Publica. If he said, listen, Daisy,

(01:10:32):
I have a confession to make I killed a six
year old child. I have it in my heart that
I wouldn't have gone forward with the marriage. She said,
I wouldn't have proceeded with the marriage. Why would you
hurt a six year old child?

Speaker 1 (01:10:46):
Right? Okay, okay. Oh on top of IM sending another
super sicker Okay, you are so nice tonight, sir. Oh
thank you for all your support. I'm just clicking all
the time. Oh, thank you so much. We love that.
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:11:05):
We have to remember she showed up at his wedding. Hey,
let's not forget that.

Speaker 1 (01:11:11):
Now. Daisy would go on and tell investigators and eventually
jurors that in nineteen eighty two, shortly before the couple
got married, Pedro told her that he had killed a
man in New York. I mean, I don't know about you.
But I don't know if I would have still married
somebody who said that they just murdered somebody.

Speaker 2 (01:11:32):
But I personally wouldn't. But we all have different levels
of what we're willing to live with.

Speaker 1 (01:11:38):
I guess, I guess, and for her, I guess that
was fine. Quote he said this person had approached him
and he had felt violated. He said had gotten out
of hand and ended up that he had his he
had put his hands around the person's neck and he
had strangled him. Then he had put him in the dumpster,
and that he had covered him with some Plasus bags.

(01:12:01):
He threw something over the body. He was emotional, he cried.
Daisy testified, sorry, but really yeah. So.

Speaker 2 (01:12:13):
She also said that over a year later, she found
a shoe box of Pedro's that contained a black and
white image of Aton torn from one of the iconic
missing posters of him. She said she confronted Pedro about it.

Speaker 1 (01:12:30):
He became nervous. He explained to me that the child
had disappeared within the area where he worked. So I
asked him why did he take that photo, and he
said he just took it because he knew the family.

Speaker 2 (01:12:43):
Now, interestingly enough, when it came to the photo of Aton.
When Daisy was interviewed before Pedro's arrest, she said nothing
about finding the photo. Okay. It wasn't until after his
arrest that she mentioned it as if it was some
you know, trophy he had kept. Oh I forgot.

Speaker 1 (01:13:07):
I'm sorry. I'm not team Dasy. I'm not saying she's lying.
I'm just I have questions. I have a lot of
questions regarding her, her motivation. The thing she said, and
here's the thing too, is I don't think that her
interviews with police were taped either. Yeah, and I do

(01:13:29):
have a problem with that as well, you know, because
how much info did they feed her or feed Mark
or feed you know, anyone else that they talked to.
I can't trust him because of the dumb shit they've
already pulled.

Speaker 2 (01:13:44):
So that's great, Okay, talk can you if it's another
SISTI or thank you, I'm going to put on a
pink shirt.

Speaker 1 (01:13:53):
I'm pink nice no one of our wonderful supporters.

Speaker 2 (01:13:58):
Yes, you are amazing, But there is so many problems
with all of these inner just there's something wrong with
all of them.

Speaker 1 (01:14:08):
Yeah, and him having a picture of that because he
knew the family. I mean, he may not have known
the family on like a level, but I'm sure they
frequented the Bodeta quite often. Absolutely could have somewhat been familiar.
But also, this is how many years previously, even at
this time when she finds this box, like, and we're

(01:14:28):
talking about a man who is pretty much an unreliable narrator, right, Okay,
So anyway, you guys, so, as we hint kind of
hinted at previously, this two parter is now going to
be a three parter. Yes, we're gonna have to stop
right here on the story because we couldn't really gloss

(01:14:51):
over the evidence against Pedro Hernandez or his confession because
it is going to be a big factor in next
week's story where we discuss his trials. Oh did I
say trials spoilers? Yeah, yeah, you heard, you heard. So

(01:15:12):
with that, let's and I hope you guys don't mind
that we wanted to spend a whole episode talking about
the confession. But it is really important to go bit
by bit by bit because it just keeps getting more
outlandish the more that this goes on. And if you
think the trials are any better, Nope, we're getting a

(01:15:32):
whole episode to those trials. So it does not get better,
all right, So let's get into our closing thoughts for
the nights I will. I think it's pretty obvious that
there's nothing that pisses me off more than situations like
this one where I don't feel like Aton Pates in

(01:15:54):
getting justice for him, was ever really the focus here.
I don't. I don't all this very much. Feels like
this is about local politics and power, where for a
select few, the end justifies the means. I mean, to me,
it is plain as day, but I understand it's not
for everybody. But you see this one time, you start

(01:16:16):
seeing it more. And at this point in twenty twelve,
everyone involved in this story knows better, and shame on them.
Shame on them. They knew better. You know that Pedro
Hernandez seemed to fall into their lap, and that once
they realized he's a simpleton for lack of a better term,

(01:16:37):
the case closed campaign promises met where all heroes nothing
to see here. Oh my god, it's infuriating. And I'm
going to save the rest of my rant for part
three when we tie everything in together, because then I
will probably have like a page of my closing thoughts like,
oh really, and I will too, So you'll definitely want

(01:17:00):
to watch next week because it's very relevant even in
twenty twenty five. I think some of you might be shocked.

Speaker 2 (01:17:07):
I mean, the fact that this happened in twenty twelve.
I'm not sure I think about this because, like I said,
in the seventies, I could be a little more forgiven.
Okay I could, but I can't. Just the way they
handled this, the way they screwed up everything. The police

(01:17:29):
took advantage of Pedro, and I think they broke the law.

Speaker 1 (01:17:35):
I ag in court they didn't.

Speaker 2 (01:17:38):
I know, but I'm sorry. If you are questioning someone
on New Jersey soil, you follow New Jersey law. I
don't care where the police is from. That's just my
two cents, because if you give police that little bit
y scapegoat, they're going to be using it all over
and you've got the technology. They knew they were doing

(01:17:59):
something wrong, is the reason the guy said, oh no,
let's just see how it's.

Speaker 1 (01:18:04):
Going to go. What happens.

Speaker 2 (01:18:05):
He knew they were doing it wrong, and that just
shame on you, and I hope all of them can't sleep.
And I'll save the rest till next week. I don't
want to go to bed mad tonight.

Speaker 1 (01:18:20):
Yeah, they were being shady, they wanted the glory.

Speaker 2 (01:18:23):
They were shady, and the politician who got elected, shame
on you. You made a promise to do the right
thing and give the family justice.

Speaker 1 (01:18:35):
Well, and remember he also ran on the campaign to
record all interviews. And it's fun, so much fun, wait
till we open up next the next episode regarding sidebands.
So anyway, let's wrap up the show for.

Speaker 2 (01:18:55):
Tonight, and remember you can join me at cc Wining
Company for Gripping Live podcast recording of true crime and
wine time. And guys, we are talking at the chilling
details about Bastrop's most infamous murder. Okay, it is the
nineteen ninety six killing of Stacey Stite and the decades
long controversy surrounding Rodney Reid's conviction. I'll be there September

(01:19:19):
thirteenth from six pm to eight pm. Tickets are on
sale now. Guys, this is a case that it's kind
of like what we're talking about tonight. There's a lot
of stuff in there that you're going to be like,
how when the hell did this happen? And it's been
appealed right now, so.

Speaker 1 (01:19:42):
Yes, yes, I can't wait to hear it all laid out.
I don't know much about it. I've only heard bits
and pieces from Terry, so I cannot wait to hear
her presentation on this for sure. Now before we go,
if you like what you heard tonight, be sure to
follow all of our socials and subscribe to our YouTube channel.
It's free. Or if you're listening to our pod again,

(01:20:03):
please download, rate, leave a review. Whatever the platform tells
you to do so they can vary depending on so
whatever it's needed, please do that. It helps us tremendously
in getting our channel out there.

Speaker 2 (01:20:18):
And guys, because you're here tonight, Lama knows this and
I think we said it on Couch Court. But there
will be more details and tickets will go up soon.
We have another live show coming up that I will
be doing in November. On November twenty second, it will
be covering the Chase Lackey case, and it is Chase

(01:20:39):
Lackie's birthday and we will be in his town and
his family will be there. So that is coming. So
instead of doing a live update and recap in September,
we're going to hold on to it and do a
full two hour show in November.

Speaker 1 (01:20:57):
Oh wow, are you sure? Two hours? No?

Speaker 2 (01:20:59):
Mean no, it's not going to be nus now for
our members, we will not be able to live stream
because the venue doesn't have the band with to do it,
but we will record it and release it immediately to
our members. Yes, Bells, it will be in Crossbrey, Texas.

(01:21:19):
That is close enough for you to drive and come
and see me as just a hop, skip and a jump.
In fact, Bells, the guy who owns the restaurant we're
having it lives important hures. It's a whole little thing.
So now, next week on True Crime and Mine Time,

(01:21:39):
we are going to bring you part three of the
eight and Paid's case and we will be exclusively talking
about the trials of Pedro Hernandez. And guys, if you
thought we ranted tonight, you're in for a treat. Okay,
it's on Ranting Steroids next week. So you want to
be sure to set your alarm for Thursday. Hit that

(01:22:03):
notification button because next Thursday at eight pm Eastern seven
pm Central, we are going to be back and bring
you some more insanity.

Speaker 1 (01:22:15):
Yeah, it's a damn shame. It makes me angry. The
whole thing. Boy deserves so much.

Speaker 2 (01:22:21):
Smart facial expressions are just priceless, just saying.

Speaker 1 (01:22:26):
I really are. Now, if you need more of Terry,
True Crime and I, you can always find us doing
something on our True Crime and wind Time YouTube channel.
While Terry is making her way back to the screen,
she's doing things in baby steps. But you know what,
Midday Missing's returning this coming Monday at one pm Eastern

(01:22:46):
twelve pm Central, Mondays and Wednesdays. I'm very happy for
you to come back with that show. It's so important
and has such a great message. Now, while that's going on,
couch Court with Lana is back right now covering the
Florida versus Donna Adelson's trial, and oh boy, it has
been something. And I'm usually live around eight forty am Eastern,

(01:23:12):
but Court can be cordy some days, but it's usually
before nine. So be sure you subscribe and hit the
notification bells so you don't miss when we go live
or drop an episode. Is there anything else you'd like
to say before we go for.

Speaker 2 (01:23:26):
Us, I just want to say, with Midday Missing coming back, oh,
there's no Court on Monday, so we don't have to
worry about Yeah, that on Monday.

Speaker 1 (01:23:34):
Right, No, I dont have to worry about Wednesday, so.

Speaker 2 (01:23:37):
We only have to worry about Wednesday. No, I just
want to say thank you everyone for listening, watching, and
supporting us. It really means a lot. I got all
sappy the other day and told y'all how much I
really missed you guys while I was out, And you
guys are just amazing. So please stay safe, watch out

(01:23:58):
for crime. If you see something, say something, and enjoy
your wine time because we need it.

Speaker 1 (01:24:05):
Yes, thank you everyone for listening and supporting us. Until
next time, take care of your mind, take care of
each other, and never stop asking the hard questions. Now
everyone go forth and be amazing. Bye guys, Thank you

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S5 E24 - The Milk Carton That Changed America - The Etan Kalil Patz Story Part 2

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}S5 E24 - The Milk Carton That Changed America - The Etan Kalil Patz Story Part 2