S5 E25 - The Milk Carton That Changed America_ The Etan Kalil Patz Story Part 3 - True Crime and Wine Time

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hmm, hello, Hello, Oh my gosh, look at us looking
so vibrant and colorful tonight.

Speaker 2 (00:21):
Well, I know, and I'm like going, okay, I'm not sure.

Speaker 1 (00:23):
I like this new look. I love it for you.
I feel like I look like a vampire.

Speaker 2 (00:29):
Wow, the glasses are taken a little bit to get
used to.

Speaker 1 (00:32):
Well, you look fantastic.

Speaker 2 (00:34):
Well, thank you, you do too? Could you always look
good even when you're on camera all damn day?

Speaker 1 (00:42):
I don't know how you have I don't either. I
guess I don't know you've got those new glasses. Now
we'll see what your opinion is in a couple of days.

Speaker 2 (00:50):
So we'll see now that I could actually see right
and it's not all blurry, and I'm not like.

Speaker 1 (00:55):
Terry, I'm gonna need you to break your glasses. Please.

Speaker 2 (01:00):
How are you? I feel like it's been forever in
a day.

Speaker 1 (01:04):
I know it does feel like it's been forever. Day.
I'm good, I am very good. I'm excited to wrap
this case up tonight, and I'll tell you what I
think about this case.

Speaker 2 (01:13):
Way too much, I know, I have to say I'm ready.
And tonight's a long one, it is.

Speaker 1 (01:20):
It is gonna be a long one. So everybody, if
you only have one bottle of wine, get two. Okay,
I got to sitting right here beside me, which we'll
get into. Ah, thank you, lady and gray.

Speaker 2 (01:30):
But yes, what your glance is quite the word I
would use. I only have to use them working on
my computer.

Speaker 1 (01:38):
I think they look at me. I'm honestly a little
surprised they're not pink. I'm gonna be honest with you.
The not pink now, that's okay, I'm not pink tinted
or anything. Oh no, let's do a part for well.
I mean there will be eventually.

Speaker 2 (01:53):
There will be eventually, just not today.

Speaker 1 (01:56):
Just not today, not now or in the next few weeks.

Speaker 2 (02:01):
Yeah, I mean our calendars are pretty booked through the
end of the year. But we'll talk more about that
in the coming days.

Speaker 1 (02:10):
That's true. Why don't you kick us off?

Speaker 2 (02:12):
Terry? Of course, of course, everybody. I am Terry True
Crime and I want to welcome you all to another
episode of True Crime and Wine Time, which is the
podcast where we in Cork the most jaw dropping true
crime stories and when we let Lama pick the cases,

(02:33):
also the most disturbing cases while sipping something smooth to
take the edge off, or in some cases where you're
doing shots because it's just that bad, it's just okay,
so you're going to want to pour a glass. Lock
your doors, people, please lock your doors, and let's get

(02:53):
ready for an episode that I can promise, like all
of our episodes is going to include eye rolls and
then lots of ryots, because there's a lot of ryots
coming tonight, a lot.

Speaker 1 (03:10):
I'm still gonna probably be ranting, like a month from now,
all my friends are gonna be like, Lama stap and
I'll be.

Speaker 2 (03:16):
Like, no, I see it.

Speaker 1 (03:18):
We're gonna talk about it. Well, Hello, besties, and thanks
for watching tonight. Before we begin. If you're watching us
on YouTube, please hit that leg button because guess why
Alama earns her gavel and Terry earns a glass of wine.
Just kidding. It helps the algorithm recognize us and be like,
this is where the party is. So while you're doing that,
if you haven't yet, also subscribed to our channel and

(03:39):
hit the notification bells so you never miss when we
go live or drop an episode. You can also become
a member, which comes with all sorts of exclusive perks
we'll get into the perks after later in this episode
for sure. Just click the joining button and pick which
here works best for you. And if you're listening to
this as a pod, please leave a rating and a

(04:00):
review or a download, as it helps our little cod
get noticed. And if you want to see all the
eye rolls and snarks, you should add over to our
YouTube and watch the replay at YouTube dot com slash
True Crime Wine Time. This is where we are like
all of the time.

Speaker 2 (04:18):
Okay, Sammy and Amos. I'm gonna have to start sending
you all money if you just keep saying nice things.

Speaker 1 (04:26):
So okay, so I appreciate.

Speaker 2 (04:30):
It, Thank you.

Speaker 1 (04:31):
I didn't know there would be compensation for that.

Speaker 2 (04:35):
Well, I mean maybe you maybe you compensated them or
told them, Hey, just be extra nights to Terry today
because I'm wearing pink and Settle black as I wearn't black.

Speaker 1 (04:47):
We're finally back to our normal selves.

Speaker 2 (04:50):
Yeah we are now, I mean tonight, just say y'all know.
We are covering part three of the case of Aton Paid,
a boy who's nineteen seventy nine disappearance captured the attention
of the world then and still captures our attention today.
Tonight's episode is going to be a little bit longer

(05:12):
because we want to make sure we get everything in.
But we didn't want to have an episode four. Okay,
So okay, now, captains, tell me I look like Ella
McPherson in the nineties. Okay, guys, now, guys, snuggle in.
Let you let me tell you what I'm drinking. But

(05:34):
first be totally honest. We postponed this episode last week
so we could do the Donald Atison verdict. Yeah, rank
the bottle of line that I had paired with this case. Yeah,
but lucky for me, I still have my good old
reliable Saint Supri seven young Bloc.

Speaker 1 (05:56):
Oh, it has got you got me?

Speaker 2 (06:00):
Wh got me a case for my birthday?

Speaker 1 (06:03):
And that's the birthday. Oh. I love that.

Speaker 2 (06:09):
I am down to six bottles because it is only
set tenth.

Speaker 1 (06:19):
It's been like seven weeks. I mean, that's that's fun.

Speaker 2 (06:22):
But remember I didn't drink for five Okay, because.

Speaker 1 (06:27):
You want to tell everybody your secrets, Terry, Hello, Kelly. Yeah, last,
I mean, it's not our fault. Last Thursday, we're sitting
here behind the stage getting ready to go live in
like twenty minutes for True Crime and wine time. Then
they're like, there's a verdict for Donna Atolson. We had

(06:48):
already opened our wine. We had no choice. We didn't
want the wine to go bad.

Speaker 2 (06:53):
We didn't wet.

Speaker 1 (06:56):
Yes, So tonight I am drinking all of winery a
blueberry moscato. It's it's it's not very strong. Okay, it's delicious,
but it's basically like a large size adult juice box.
Juice box, not jukebox. Maybe it's working. Maybe it's stronger
than I think. What's the alcohol content like six pointing

(07:19):
or something like that. Yeah, but I got two, so
don't worry about it. It'll be fine, alicious. I mean
where there's like eleven.

Speaker 2 (07:33):
Minus thirteen point five? Yeah, girls, and I've already had
a glass.

Speaker 1 (07:39):
Okay, Well it's going to be a fun time.

Speaker 2 (07:43):
Well hello, yeah, we're gonna need it. Hello, everybody that's here.

Speaker 1 (07:48):
I mean, it's very delicious. It's just you're gonna need
more than one I'm going to do.

Speaker 2 (07:53):
So does it taste like blueberries or does it taste
like wine?

Speaker 1 (07:58):
It tastes like juice, blueberry juice. It doesn't even really
taste like wine. It tastes like blueberry juice. So Okay,
I mean, I guess not that strong. I know, right,
So just.

Speaker 2 (08:12):
You know, when Finland, a popular drink is real blueberry juice,
Like on the flight over, you don't get orange juice.
You get blueberry fresh squeeze blueberry juice. And it's really
good with Tito's.

Speaker 1 (08:26):
I bet it is. Oh, I'm jealous of that. Tastes
like snosberries. That's right, it does taste like snospberries. Well
you guys with that, let's get into the story of
Aton paints showy Terry. Why don't you catch us up
where we left off.

Speaker 2 (08:41):
Yeah, so so far. In our coverage on the disappearance
of Aton, we went over the events that took place
on that fateful day May twenty fifth, nineteen seventy nine.
We talked about two very troubling possible suspects, Jose Ramos
and a Miller, and we don't like either one of them. Okay,

(09:05):
both of them were child predators and both had some
interaction and accessibility to Aton in his family. Now, neither
of those men were charged, and the case went unsolved
for thirty three years yep.

Speaker 1 (09:22):
And then in twenty twelve came the arrest of Pedro Hernandez,
who at the time of Aton's disappearance was eighteen years
old and worked out of Bodega not far from the
Pais's home. The only evidence they had that pointed to
Pedro Hernandez was a series of questionable, very questionable confessions

(09:46):
Pedro told to others over the decades, and then Pedro's
in my opinion, extremely coerced confession to the police, which
we'll get.

Speaker 2 (09:56):
Yeah, you put it nicely. I am give you kudos.
You put it nicely. Girl. Do you have some more?
Have some more that moscato and.

Speaker 1 (10:08):
You're gonna tell us how you really feel? And I'm
to tell you I really do.

Speaker 2 (10:11):
Oh so yes. Trigger warning for everyone, because it's it's
not a great story. So many people, including ourselves, began
to question if Pedro was even the right guy. Guys.
First and foremost, Pedro had serious mental illnesses and had

(10:37):
a very low IQ between sixty seven and seventy six,
making him quite the unreliable narrator. Second, there were serious
issues regarding the reality of the reality of his I'm
gonna say confessions and the tactics that were used to
obtain it. We can't go over all of them now.

(10:57):
So please go back and watch part two of this
series where we examined it under a microscope because it's
bashit crazy. But Lama, why don't we get into it
this week?

Speaker 1 (11:12):
All right? So we have so at this point in story,
we have Pedro in jail for the murder and kidnapping
of Aton Pates, that little qutie patuity right there. Now,
one would think that for the most part, the case
is solved, right, I mean, Aton's parents had him legally
declared dead and according to the State of New York's narrative,

(11:34):
he is no longer alive as well.

Speaker 2 (11:40):
So this thirty year old American man who had been
living in Europe for two years received a very strange
email from none other than the FBI. Now, the email
stated that the man may not be who he thought
he was, that his parents may not be his parents,
and that maybe he wasn't where he thought he was,

(12:02):
that he may in fact actually be Aton Pates.

Speaker 1 (12:06):
Can you imagine having a bomb drop like that on you,
like on a Wednesday, Like, what everything I've known about
myself may not be ye? No? Real? Wow? Now, this
guy had no idea who Aton Pates was, and he
did what any of us would do and went to Wikipedia.

(12:28):
He agreed to talk to the FBI agent over the phone,
who asked him questions about his life, like where he
grew up and went to school. The man, however, still
found this to be very strange, because, after all, he
was thirty and twenty fourteen, and that means he was
born in nineteen eighty four, eleven years after Aton was born.

(12:50):
So the math amthin, and we're not great at mathere,
but we know that mathiny mathin.

Speaker 2 (12:56):
We not good at math, but even I can say
that math doesn't work. So when this guy was doing
his research into Aton's story, he saw that Pedro Hernandez
had been arrested for murder of you know, the little boy.
So he apparently asked the FBI agent, Hey, so, like,

(13:18):
if there's a guy getting ready to stand trial for
this murder, why are you guys still looking into tips
that Aton was still alive. Of course, he did not
get an answer.

Speaker 1 (13:31):
I mean that's a good question, I mean a very
good question.

Speaker 2 (13:36):
But if you don't have a body, do you ever
really close that door?

Speaker 1 (13:41):
One? I mean, that's true, and I think we get
into that a little bit. But either way, I would
I would be asking that question too, like what anyway, Now,
this man saw that Pro Publica had published articles about
this case, so he reached out to them and he said,
I thought you might want to know that the FBI

(14:01):
may be working to prove the child is alive. He
also went on to say, obviously I was surprised. I chuckled.
I thought it was funny because it was so unlikely
that it would be possible that I could be this person,
and I had no idea who Aton Pates was. And
to be honest, I thought it was a hoax, which

(14:23):
I would too.

Speaker 2 (14:24):
I would too, but I just also think of the family.
So and yes, maybe the FBI was just being super
duper thorough okay, which I do appreciate in checking out
this tip and finding that man living in Europe, because,
like I said, Aton's body was never found. But it

(14:46):
also kind of implies to me that maybe the FBI
still considered the Aton Pates case still open.

Speaker 1 (14:55):
I mean, it's interesting.

Speaker 2 (14:58):
Now, before we get into all the courtroom arguments in drama,
I just want to revisit our maybe least favorite elected
district attorney. Favorite depends on who you talk to. Sivance
Junior the one who reopened a TONS case. Okay, after

(15:18):
he took office in January twenty ten, there were several
instances that kind of blew up in his face and
just a little bit mud everywhere.

Speaker 1 (15:30):
Just a little bit.

Speaker 3 (15:31):
So.

Speaker 1 (15:31):
One instance in particular happened in twenty eleven, the year
before Pedro Hernandez was arrested. Now, he and his chief
assistant rushed getting an indictment against Dominique strauss Khan, the
former chief of the International Monetary Fund and a candidate
in the twenty twelve French presidential election. They got him

(15:53):
on sexual assault and attempted rape charges. Oh that is
a big fish trying to catch there.

Speaker 2 (16:01):
Yeah, it is. Hold on, guys, my computer just decided
to do something very interesting and I don't know why
it did that, but it's okay.

Speaker 1 (16:16):
Yeah what.

Speaker 2 (16:24):
Okay, I totally lost my place. But it all ended
up being an embarrassment to the DA's office. The hotel
maid who was the accuser turned out to not be
very credible. Okay. A few months after stress Comm's arrest,
Vance dropped all charges against him and put out a

(16:45):
public statement explaining that he dropped them because our job
is to seek justice. Not convictions at any cost.

Speaker 1 (16:55):
Let's just keep that quote in the back of our
minds for the next two hours. Okay, just remember that.

Speaker 4 (17:03):
Now.

Speaker 1 (17:03):
We're not going to go into all the details of
that specific case, but I will say it was pretty
interesting from what I read, and it's it's really too
complex to get into tonight, so feel free to look
it up for yourself and come to your own conclusions
about it. But it was very I went down the
rabbit hole and it was very interesting.

Speaker 2 (17:23):
Well, thank you for going down the rabbit hole for us.
But also important for you guys to know is that
DA Vance and Police Commissioner Kelly served together on a
task force about legally requiring the recording of interrogations and confessions. Okay,

(17:43):
they both endorse the overall ideal, but what concerned about
the financial cost of requiring the police or the prosecutor's
office to tape every single interrogation.

Speaker 1 (17:55):
I mean, fair, I guess, but I mean, come on,
but just remember those two together were like, we should
definitely record things, we should probably do that.

Speaker 2 (18:06):
And let's just remember that when they questioned a certain person,
the equipment was already there, so the financial costs had
already been handled.

Speaker 1 (18:16):
Yeah, right, isn't that? Is that interesting? Now, just four
months after after Pedro Hernandez's arrest and mostly not recorded interrogations,
Police Commissioner Kelly spoke at the Carnegie Council and it
was there that he proclaimed that he would begin implementing
mandatory taping as a way to regain the public's confidence

(18:41):
and trust in the integrity of prosecutions. Oh oh, fancy
that four months after the biggest case. Okay, interesting, Okay.

Speaker 2 (18:51):
Now we also got to say, at the same time,
former Governor Andrew Kumo announced he was authorizing a significant
out amount of money to this cause.

Speaker 1 (19:04):
Yeah, and then da Vance then said, quote recording police interrogation.
Interrogation in the most serious criminal cases is an extremely
valuable tool for law enforcement. By allowing prosecutors to know
exactly what the defendants say during interrogations, video recordings help

(19:28):
us to convict the guilty and better evaluate claims of
involuntary confessions. Oh. So it seems like these people who
are in charge to understand the severity of situations like that,
And remember, they don't want to get justice set at

(19:48):
any cost. That's right, not how they do things, you guys, No, no,
not at all, even if it was their campaign promise. Right. Anyway,
the Moscato's kicking in, y'all, we're not even that exciting.

Speaker 2 (20:05):
Why don't we just say, talking out of both sides
of their mouth.

Speaker 1 (20:09):
Yes, Now, let's get into some pre trial shenanigans. Now,
Harvey Fishbein, Pedro's attorney, was zealously fighting for his client
in court like any good public defender would do. I mean, yes,
thank you.

Speaker 2 (20:28):
But guys, generally prosecutors do not have to disclose grand
jury testimony until shortly before trial. But Fishbain said that
this was a very special case. Fish Spain was asking
the judge to force the prosecution to disclose exactly what,
if any, corroborating evidence they presented to the grand jury,

(20:52):
including what he called inconsistent and unreliable witness statements. In
other words, he needed the good goods.

Speaker 1 (21:00):
Yeah, and he goes down to say, quote, as a
matter of law, he wrote in one filing, a person
may not be convicted of any offense solely upon evidence
of a commission or admission made by him, without additional
proof that the offense charge has been committed. End quote.

Speaker 2 (21:24):
Yeah. Now, in a separate filing, Fishpain called out the
prosecution's inability to produce additional evidence. He pointed out the
numerous dead ends they provided, such as searching Pedro's computers,
personal papers, and polygraph guys, none of which implicated Pedro

(21:45):
in any way. Remember, investigators had dug up the basement
of the bodega as well, and guys, there was nothing there.

Speaker 1 (21:55):
Nothing now prosecution of course, right for prosecution, of course,
So there was no additional evidence, and refused to turn
over anything about the grand jury. They also said that
under New York law, very little evidence is needed to
satisfy the coroboration requirement. Why have they been so cagey

(22:15):
for you know it? It's not a good look.

Speaker 2 (22:21):
It's not a good look now. In fact, wrote Joan
Lucy or Bone, the lead prosecutor assigned to the case,
the only corroboration needed was to establish so that a
crime in fact had happened.

Speaker 1 (22:38):
Can you do, Joan?

Speaker 2 (22:40):
To meet that standard, prosecutor simply offered a well known narrative.
Aton Pates left for the school bus, stopped one morning
in nineteen seventy nine, and never came back.

Speaker 1 (22:52):
That's all that you need.

Speaker 2 (22:54):
That's all you need.

Speaker 1 (22:55):
That's it. That's enough to satisfy them in New York.
Apparently allegedly, I don't know, I called bullshit on all this.
I mean, on that argument. The judge, of course ruled
in the prosecution's favor. Okay, fine, we're not lawyers. Okay,
we're not, but I don't know. It stinks. The smell

(23:16):
is strong and it's stinking.

Speaker 5 (23:19):
Now.

Speaker 1 (23:20):
The biggest hurdle for fish Being, of course, was Pedro's confession.
His main goal was to get it thrown out, because
without that, the prosecution really had very little to go on,
if anything really.

Speaker 2 (23:33):
Now, But we also have to stop and think. By
not taping the first seven hours of Patro's confession, it
was impossible to say whether Pedro had ever asked for
a lawyer or how getting this confession went down.

Speaker 1 (23:49):
Yeah, In regards to the it all should have been
taped argument, the prosecution was basically like, so, this is
clearly a New York matter, and we didn't have to
honor the mandatory recording law that New Jersey has, So
that that's just their stance. We don't have to doesn't
apply to us too bad. Now in regards to Pedro,

(24:10):
as her Miranda wrights. They also said since Pedro came
to the prosecutor's office voluntarily, he wasn't technically in custody, which.

Speaker 2 (24:23):
Excuse me at like that is shadiest shit, And did
anyone to help Pedro? He was free to get up
and leave whenever he wanted.

Speaker 1 (24:34):
They drove his ass.

Speaker 4 (24:36):
I know.

Speaker 2 (24:38):
Who, Why would he have thought he could just get
up and leave.

Speaker 1 (24:40):
I wouldn't have no, not when you're in the back
of the cops they take you to the place like no,
I'm sorry, but no no now.

Speaker 2 (24:50):
Hearing regarding Pedro's confessions was held over two days in
September twenty fourteen. Both Stan and Julie Pets appeared, though
Julie would later leave the room when Pedro's confession played.
And guys, I just have to tell y'all my heart
hurt for these parents. Having to listen to a confession,

(25:14):
whether it's real or not, has got to be gut
wrenching and just ripped her.

Speaker 1 (25:19):
Soul out absolutely. And by the way, I just want
to make it perfectly clear, I am in no way
shape or for I'm angry with the paids Oh god
it all. I don't blame them for feeling how they feel,
trusting what they want to feel, like, oh, I have,
but I have problems with a whole lot of other
people agree. Just want to make that clear, like I
do not feel that way now. Pedro's defense attorney Fish Being,

(25:43):
opened the hearing by stating that he intended to make
clear the confession's details in no way matched the accepted
facts of the case, and he has a lot of points,
and some of his points.

Speaker 2 (25:56):
Were Pedro was the only person interviewed who placed Aton
outside the bodega that morning. Pedro's claimed that he tossed
Aton's backpack behind the freezer in the basement. Guys, doesn't
check out, since the entirety of the bodega had been
searched at least four times in the days following Aton's disappearance.

(26:22):
I mean, come on, and he doesn't remember there ever
being a large police presence for several days. Wild yeah, Now,
Pedro said he put Aton, still alive, in a trash bag,
into a box that was no bigger than the length
of his own arms and no more than two feet high.

Speaker 1 (26:44):
Again, we're not good at math, but the math ain't
math in yeah, ainy mathon doesn't make any sense it's crazy. Now.
He also there's some more points, guys. If that's not
meeting facts, no, don't worry, there's some more. The spot
on the street that Pedro told he told police he
placed the box that supposedly held Aton's body was actually

(27:06):
a very busy bakery at the time, so that doesn't
seem likely. He also provided no reason for killing Aton,
and like, okay, they don't always give reasons, Okay, but
I feel like we would have gotten one if that
was the case. You know, in chorus confessions. Guess what's

(27:26):
really hard to get reasons because they didn't do it. Now.
Pedro also never discussed the case with his coworkers, two
of whom were close relatives that he lived with. Now,
none of this makes any sense to me.

Speaker 2 (27:45):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 1 (27:47):
I mean there were police everywhere. We know that for
a fact. So and I again, if you didn't catch
part two, this guy again has serious He doesn't live
in reality a lot of the time. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (28:02):
So, and let's not forget during those statements, he was
also under the influence of heavy medical narcotics that were
it just it smells really bad, guys.

Speaker 1 (28:16):
Yeah, I mean, even his own lawyer said he's wrong
all the time. He's inconsistent, and he is a terrible historian,
because yeah, yeah, I wouldn't expect this guy to be
accurate about the weather outside, to be quite honest, Yeah,
I mean you would be look.

Speaker 2 (28:38):
For yourself what world he's living in in the moment, right.

Speaker 1 (28:42):
And that's not I mean, that's just the reality of it,
you know.

Speaker 2 (28:47):
Now, there is a point in one of the recordings
where Pedro is sobbing and the detectives in the room
bring up his religious faith as a reason for him
to come clean about what he did. One of them
even goes as far as saying that strength, that's the
strength of the Lord.

Speaker 1 (29:08):
O growth really gross. Now, Fishman argues that the behavior
of the detectives is manipulative, yes, and that what we're
actually seeing is the consequence of what can happen when
a mentally ill man is interrogated for hours, almost twenty

(29:29):
four hours to be specific. I mean, I wouldn't make it,
I can tell you that, right, Okay.

Speaker 2 (29:38):
I wouldn't make it. And I'm not suffering the same
mental illness he is. And I'm not under the influence
of a fedel patch. Yeah, and fucking forget about that
after twenty four hours, I don't even know now the
prosecution was all like, Actually, Pedro's raw emotions are evident

(30:00):
of his authentic guilt, a logical and natural consequence of painful, shameful, unburdening,
and the detectives only brought up his faith to get
the truth of what had happened.

Speaker 1 (30:20):
Yeah, yeah, yes, oh yeah, I just made though too, Joe,
watch a face girl. Now. The confessions and the legality
of them ended up being taken to the New York
Supreme Court, who denied the motion to suppress them, saying
that Pedro did have the mental capacity to waive his

(30:41):
rights to have an attorney present and understood that he
had the right to remain silent.

Speaker 2 (30:49):
I mean, how can a judge make that decision if
he wasn't in the room and there's no video typing.

Speaker 1 (30:56):
I mean, Zara is very low apparently so now.

Speaker 2 (31:02):
In his written opinion, Judge Wilie said that Hernandez's performance
on psychological tests, along with evidence of his actual waiver
of his rights and his basic ability to make his
way in the world over a period of almost forty years,
led the court to conclude that he was capable of

(31:23):
appreciating the nature of his rights he was giving up
when he spoke to the police and assistant district attorney. Really,
twenty four hours of this kind of stuff, and you think, I.

Speaker 1 (31:38):
Mean let alone again, I mean, no offense. But somebody
with an IQ of that does not understand the complications
or the consequences. It's I mean, regular people, don't They
do it every freaking day, you know, like you expect
him to actually understand that complex kind like, get out

(32:01):
of here, Get out of here now, his lawyer goes.
Pedro's lawyer goes on to say, this decision doesn't go
to the reliability of the facts. It's about whether they're
legally admissible. With that, both sides began rigorously preparing for
the trial that was just two months away. By the way, Justine,

(32:26):
do you still live in New York? Just carious, just
curious if you still live there. I know you're from there.
Just curious, just wondering somebody might have to show up
to court in a couple of months. Yes.

Speaker 2 (32:41):
Now, while we could go into the psychology of juries
for hours, we won't.

Speaker 1 (32:47):
Okay, we don't have time for that.

Speaker 2 (32:49):
But I do want to briefly talk about juries and confessions,
particularly false ones. Guys, there have been several studies that
have used mock juries that have clearly demonstrated that confessions
carry an extraordinary weight, even over eyewitnesses and character testimony.

(33:14):
Let that sink in, guys.

Speaker 1 (33:16):
I mean, there's another reason why I wanted to bring
this up, and that's because we watch trials a lot
of time on couch court with Lama, and it's always
remembered to keep this in the back of your mind
constantly when you hear things. So that's another reason why
we're talking about it. Two Birds, one stone. Now, there
are some very fascinating and fascinating insights that came from
that two thy and ten study, one of them being

(33:40):
that jurors believe they can better judge a confession's truthfulness
if it has been videotaped as opposed to audio taped
or written out. I'm not saying it makes sense, but
that's just humans, right, That's just how we are. Not
everything we do makes a lot of sense. Now, another
point is that forty percent of jurors interviewed were confident

(34:04):
they could determine whether a videotaped confession was truthful. Okay, no,
that's no. Sorry, just admit you don't know. It's fine,
It's fine. Now. Jurors were more likely to regard a
videotaped confession as truthful if the tape involved only the accused,

(34:25):
which is very interesting. They were less inclined to accept
the confession when the tapes included the accused interrogators, which
is very interesting. That is very interesting. Now.

Speaker 2 (34:41):
The SETI also showed that jurors tended to believe that
police officials were better equipped to evaluate confessions than ordinary citizens,
even though a two thousand and five SETI showed police
actually performed less well then college students and a led

(35:02):
detection experiment. I find that interesting, right.

Speaker 1 (35:07):
I mean I only find it a little in surprise.
But I will go into my rant about that now.

Speaker 2 (35:14):
The four hundred and sixty one mock jurors used in
the study said there was a better than fifty to
fifty chance that a jury would convict a suspect who
falsely confessed to a murder even when there was no
other evidence that he or she was guilty.

Speaker 1 (35:33):
That should scare the shit out of everybody.

Speaker 2 (35:35):
Exactly what the actual fuck? That should scare you? Yeah,
if there is no evidence and the person's confession doesn't
even match the investigator. That should scare all of you. Now,
in another one, it says and at least one case,

(35:56):
prosecutors chose to believe a confession even when the accused
seemed categorically cleared by DNA evidence. Yeah, yep, So basically
I'm going to trust your word not science.

Speaker 1 (36:14):
Well, I mean, prosecutors don't look to like to look
like dumbasses either, because if they're wrong, that's what happens.

Speaker 2 (36:21):
Like that, they're there to uphold the law as they
should be, do what's right, not oh zeng your own.

Speaker 1 (36:31):
Okay, Now, I just want to be clear. There are
very good prosecutors out there, but then there's sumbags. Scumbags
so the same. They'll do anything close the case. But anyway,
so you guys, that's just some fun facts to help
you sleep tonight. It's not great. So with that, let's
get into the trial now. Pedro Hernandez's trial began on

(36:55):
January thirtieth, twenty fifteen, which was expected to l two
to three months. That's double a Karen retrial, you guys,
like that is a long act? Can you imagine? Oh
my gosh, I've watched trials that long. It is daunting
on everybody. That's very long trial. That is a very

(37:18):
long trial for something that has no physical evidence.

Speaker 2 (37:23):
And it's crazy. And guys, for this trial, we're obviously
we're not going to be able to go over each
and every witness and every piece of evidence because it
was two to three months, guys, so we are just
going to hit some of the key parts.

Speaker 1 (37:39):
Just man, I would love to talk about this for
like ten hours. We can't later at a different time.
We can later, but tonight is not the night now.
In her opening statement, Manhattan's Assistant District Attorney Joan ill Ello,
I can never It's just say Joan. Let's just call
her Joan. Okay, yellow Z or bond. There we go.

(38:01):
We tried it. I said it good for a while,
but no, we're done. Joan began asking the jury to
imagine the New York moment in which Aton Pates went missing. Atari,
she said, was the video game of choice. In nineteen
seventy nine, there were only five television channels, and parents
had to put up with the daily squabbles of their

(38:24):
children over what to watch because quote, there was no TiVo.
I don't have TiVo still exists now to be honest,
ten years later, but.

Speaker 2 (38:34):
Whatever, I sick say, I think we had VCRs before
we had TiVo.

Speaker 1 (38:42):
Well, yeah, no, she's saying in the year twenty fifteen
at the trial.

Speaker 2 (38:48):
Did we even have TiVo?

Speaker 1 (38:49):
Then? Yeah? I guess so I never had TiVo. I didn't, now, guys.

Speaker 2 (38:57):
So ho was an area where hippies, not hipsters, strolled
the streets. Okay, New York, she said, was a city
that looked more like a small town than a metropolis.
That you knew your neighbors and they knew you.

Speaker 1 (39:13):
She said that Aton was rather small for his age
and that he was towered over by all of his friends,
but despite his petit nature, he had big dreams. He
was known for his infectious smile and bright eyes, noting
that when he grew up he wanted to be a
real construction guy. She said Aton was a tiny man

(39:37):
with a big heart.

Speaker 2 (39:39):
He is, Yes, he's just so cute.

Speaker 1 (39:42):
Look, I think he's wearing Bigfoot on his shirt. Is
that Bigfoot? I feel like it is.

Speaker 2 (39:47):
It does look like Bigfoot.

Speaker 1 (39:49):
Or a gorilla. Maybe it's King Kong. I don't know,
but I.

Speaker 2 (39:52):
Don't know he's just adorable. The little flip of hair
on the side, it's just yeah. Now, this was Aton's
first day as a big boy, guys, first day he
was able to take himself to the bus stop into
the all important bodega. To him, it was the best day.

(40:12):
It turned out to be the worst day. Now, I'm
going to try not to get sad with this, his
mom said. His beautiful little life was snuffed out the
very day he achieved that childhood freedom in nineteen seventy nine,
calling the case a crime that changed the face of
the city forever, a cautionary tale, a defining moment, a

(40:35):
loss of innocence. And it wasn't his mom who said
that I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 (40:39):
It was the prosecutor. I know.

Speaker 2 (40:41):
Well, I'm sure she heard it, just the words, just
as a mom. I can just my whole heart. I'm sorry, I'm.

Speaker 4 (40:46):
Just like.

Speaker 1 (40:49):
Of course. Now. Lucy Orbon told the jury that Pedro
Hernandez was working in the bodega at the time, stocking
shelves and carrying heavy crates of soda in beer up
to the shop from the basement below. He was a quiet,
observant person who did not have many friends, an odd
person a loner. She said, Okay, are.

Speaker 2 (41:14):
We trying to shade him, because there's nothing wrong with
being that way. I mean, I just want to go
on record and say that does not automatically make you suspicious. No. Sorry,
I am struggling since my office isn't completely set up
on finding my comfy spot now. According to her, Pedro

(41:37):
was the only person in the shop at the time
that Aton came into it, and he asked the boy
if he wanted a soda, and when Aton readily agreed,
Pedro led him down fourteen stairs into the basement, and
that's when Hernandez choked him to death, placing the body
in a black bag and then into a box, which

(41:59):
he carried on his shoulders one block to Thompson Street,
where he left it amongst the garbage.

Speaker 1 (42:08):
Sense that's that's a long ass and carry.

Speaker 2 (42:15):
I mean, yeah, yeah, fucking to going to that.

Speaker 1 (42:19):
I mean, I've had a five year old. Five year
olds are heavy, okay, they are.

Speaker 2 (42:23):
They are Okay.

Speaker 1 (42:27):
While Pedro never gave a motive to anyone, a Lucy
Orban argued that sexual gratification was his motive, which is
fucking bullshit. Joan, all right, I'm gonna call you out
right now in your opening statement, it's fucking bullshit and
you know it, Okay, Now, even though he vehemently denied
it in his confessions, she had no reason to say

(42:49):
that or bring it up. By the way, there's no
proof of anything. Just want guys.

Speaker 2 (42:55):
The Moscato's kicking in it is that.

Speaker 1 (43:00):
I haven't looked at this in you know, a couple
of days, and I'm like, oh, yeah, that's right. I
remember why I was so pissed. Now. She goes on
to say, quote, why would the defendant do this? Although
you can probably imagine that in reality that choking was
not the first thing that happened to Aton, it was
the second. He literally never said that. Joan, you're making

(43:24):
that it's more salacious. I'm more so. You're not gonna
this is your opening statement. You're gonna say nothing for
the rest to try about it. I don't like Joan
in case y'all don't know, I don't like her.

Speaker 2 (43:37):
Okay. Sorry, I had to hold back some comments while
you're reading, and now it made me sneeze because I'm sorry.
He never said that anywhere. No, she basic, I mean,
I know, opening statements do not they're not fact. It's
but that is salacious, is shit, and that is like
a clickbait headline, and today it is.

Speaker 1 (43:58):
And I'm sorry, but as a pro prosecutor, you should
fucking know better, Joan agreed. Disapointing.

Speaker 2 (44:04):
Why would you say that if there's no proof? Why
put that thought in the parents?

Speaker 1 (44:09):
Hey? Exactly? Anyway, Anyway, Now she goes on to tell
you through opening statements, you.

Speaker 2 (44:19):
Will see and hear his chilling confessions. What you will
see is someone who very keenly controls the information that
he puts out. Lucy or Bond close up her opening
by telling the jury that for three decades the Pate's
family and many others had been looking for Aton. Their

(44:41):
search ends here.

Speaker 1 (44:43):
She said, you guys, it's gonna be a long night.

Speaker 2 (44:47):
What is she smoking?

Speaker 1 (44:49):
I don't know, but I don't like Joan in case,
I don't like Joan either, hm mmmmmm. Shady. You only
lie when you don't have a good case, Joan now.
In his opening statements, Defense attorney Harvey fish Being urged
the jury not to be tempted by the numerous alleged

(45:09):
confessions made by Pedro into assuming his gift. Don't let
the passage of time allow you to say, uh, I
will accept what is being said today as what actually happened.
Keep this in context, or this is not going to
be a fair trial. Also, before we move on back
to Joan real quick, when she's like, well he's a mastermind.

(45:33):
Now with that IQ you think he's some fucking genius mastermind,
that's uh huh. Get out of here. I mean, get
out of here, Joan.

Speaker 2 (45:42):
And look at his writings. I'm not saying he's illiterate,
but he can't spell no.

Speaker 1 (45:48):
But he does have nice penmanship. I will say that
does considerably.

Speaker 2 (45:52):
But yeah, lady in Gray, I agree with you about
questioning the judge. I cannot believe the judge did not
say something. I don't know if they can, we would
have to ask lama judge. But to me, I don't
think that's acceptable.

Speaker 1 (46:15):
I mean, it's missy now, it is now.

Speaker 2 (46:21):
Harvey goes on to say that Pedro had confessed to
act that could not possibly have happened or were improbable.
He's the only witness against himself. Guys, if that a
reasonable doubt, please somebody explained to me what reasonable doubt is.

Speaker 1 (46:46):
Maybe, I mean it's good in there for me. I
don't really pay confessions much mind, to be honest, especially
from people who have these issues. All right, I'm not
listening to somebody standing on the corner telling me the
end of days is coming and ranting about God because

(47:07):
they're having an episode.

Speaker 6 (47:08):
Why would I believe them in a confession about a case.
Why makeap makes sense? Make it makes sense? I kep, Well,
don't worry.

Speaker 1 (47:18):
His lawyer. Call up Joe get it either, Call up
Joan if she could come on the show. Now. Guess what.
His lawyer doesn't quite get it either. He says, why
should he say such things? He's inconsistent and unreliable, not
because he's a calculating, planning individual, as the prose computer

(47:40):
would have you believe, but because of his mental status
that makes him inconsistent and unreliable. I mean, the only
person making sense in this whole thing.

Speaker 2 (47:54):
I mean, if you didn't see episode two or listen
to it, go back, because you will hear some of it.
I mean, Pedro was there were people with Pedro that
were not there. I mean, so he said that Pedro's

(48:14):
confession is fiction dreamed up by a mentally ill man
with a low IQ and a history of hallucinations, who
is under the influence a finnel and fueled by over
six hours of police questioning before he was read his rights. Yeah,

(48:35):
hm and that. After confessing, Hernandez told a defense psychologist
his memory of the killing feels like a dream and
he wasn't sure if it had really happened. He went
on to say, Pedro Hernandez cannot distinguish between what is
real and what is not. This is why New York

(49:04):
did not want this video taped.

Speaker 1 (49:07):
In my opinion, I mean certainly seems suspicious. I don't
want to sell your fried chicken box.

Speaker 2 (49:19):
What do I hear elbow feet?

Speaker 1 (49:21):
You do hear an elbow feet? Yes? I asked him
to heat the oven up to make me some shrimp,
cut some drink shrimp.

Speaker 2 (49:27):
What you guys and shrimp?

Speaker 1 (49:31):
We love shrimp. Okay, this is a shrimp love and house.
We love all the shrimp, bread and shrimp, fried shrimp, shrimps.

Speaker 2 (49:39):
I these pars still smells shrimpy.

Speaker 1 (49:41):
Then, no, it does not smell his box on it. No,
he has fried chicken, which does not good. But I
don't like fried chicken, so I just like smelling it.

Speaker 2 (49:54):
What do you not like about fried chickens.

Speaker 1 (49:56):
It's like fried chicken. It's a whole thing I don't want.

Speaker 2 (49:59):
I like fried chicken. I just can't eat it on
the bone. I have to peel it off the bone.

Speaker 1 (50:03):
I don't like any of it. I don't like that.
I'm freaking little of the smooth.

Speaker 2 (50:07):
What about we mustard on it?

Speaker 1 (50:08):
No, why would you say these things? It's my mom
messaging you or something. Right now?

Speaker 2 (50:12):
What are you saying, Terry, Hey, I'm trying to win
brownie points with her so I can get a whole
cheesecake to myself.

Speaker 1 (50:22):
All right, back to our frustration here. I don't even
know now. He told jurors that all I'm sorry, let
me start over again. He told jurors all about Jose Ramos.
Remember that, oh fucker, We're gonna call him that all
night because he sucks. It's a fact now, that is

(50:43):
who he said is really the man responsible for the
disappearance and murder of Aton, telling them that when Ramos
was shown a picture of Aton, he had said he
was ninety nine percent sure that was a boy. But
apparently the state's not believing that because that makes too

(51:05):
much sense. So let's listen to the crazy guy.

Speaker 2 (51:10):
Yeah, because it's easier to take down the crazy guy.
Let's just be honest, path of least resistance, they thought.
Now at this point, Fishmain paused in front of the
jury and said, if you believe this story, then a
Ton Pates certainly wasn't on the corner when my client
says he saw him. This is just another sad twist

(51:34):
and a tragic saga train time.

Speaker 1 (51:37):
Sorry and agreed, that's exactly what this is now. He
also urged the jurors to focus on what he called
a lack of evidence against his client. There is no evidence,
there's nobody, there's no crime scene. You will hear, there's
no DNA, there were no fingerprints. Are there eyewitnesses that

(52:02):
could connect Pedro Hernandez to the disappearance of Aton Pates
and guys.

Speaker 2 (52:11):
Let's also remember, if you try to verify Pedro's confession,
it can't be verified. There was no backpack in the Bodeka.
I'd bed. That's the whole thing that I'm like, there's
no DNA, but you can't even verify the confession because

(52:31):
it didn't happen.

Speaker 1 (52:34):
Nope, that's our opinion, I guess, just my opinion. Joan.

Speaker 2 (52:41):
Now, yeah, Joan needs to go be with Joan Crawford
and mommy dearest. So on the first day of testimony,
Julie Pates, Aton's mother, now seventy two, took the stand.
She told the jury how there was an incident the
night before Aton's disappearance that caused her to fly into

(53:02):
a panic when Aton wandered off their block. Can I
just say real quick next night, Amy, Besides Aton being
a victim, Stan and Julie were traumatized over and over
and over.

Speaker 1 (53:21):
Yes, And that's another thing that disgusts me about this,
to rip open those wounds on this fucking bullshit. Shame
shame on these people, not the page, shame on everybody else. Yeah,
they don't want to be fucking heroes. Might you, Joan,
talk about you?

Speaker 4 (53:40):
Joan.

Speaker 1 (53:41):
You know, she's not the one who officially rolled the charges.
There were several others.

Speaker 2 (53:44):
But she went with it.

Speaker 1 (53:46):
She could have stopped it, exactly. She didn't need to
say that bullshit, she said, exactly.

Speaker 2 (53:52):
I'm like, she doesn't get I'm sorry you didn't do
the charging, but you went with it. It's a relay
you took running and you got the thing passed to you.

Speaker 1 (54:01):
You could have just said, it's kind of like felonious murder,
like you don't need to be the one to shoot
the gun necessarily, but like you're still you're still responsible
for this. Agreed. But anyway, we are biased as shit
about these kids.

Speaker 2 (54:16):
You know, I am willing to go on record and
say I have biased as shit.

Speaker 1 (54:20):
Okay, I did my research, Okay, I've earned my biases
in this, and I.

Speaker 2 (54:26):
Listened to both sides, and I tried to look at
I even went down the rabbit hole of fake confessions
and went down a whole psycho. Yeah. So Joan didn't do.

Speaker 1 (54:37):
That, No, no, she said. She left Aton playing outside
they're so ho loft with a downstairs neighbor on the
evening of May twenty fourth, nineteen seventy nine. While she
briefly went inside. Quote, when I went back onto the
fire escape to see how they were doing, Aton was gone.

(54:59):
He was nowhere in sight.

Speaker 2 (55:01):
She said, Oh, every parent has experienced something like that,
whether it's five minutes in a grocery store. Oh, lady,
and Gray, you're right his siblings as well, now, she says.
She then raced downstairs and started searching for her son.
I went around the corner heading north, my heart pounding.

(55:24):
He was nowhere in sight. I tried going around the
block in the other direction, still no Aton. I was
getting pretty panicky at this point in time.

Speaker 1 (55:36):
Ultimately, he came back around the corner from the west,
and I, of course, being the typical calm mother, I
screamed and yelled at him and chastised him severely for
almost giving me a heart attack. She said. Aton was
quite upset by the scolding, which she called certainly overkill,
especially for a child like Aton who never needed discipline

(56:00):
because he was so sensitive and eager to please. Oh, I, I'm.

Speaker 2 (56:07):
Like, I, you did nothing wrong. No, you did nothing wrong.
I don't think the majority of moms would have reacted
any different.

Speaker 1 (56:17):
I mean that's your instinct, right, I.

Speaker 2 (56:19):
Mean yeah, I would be like.

Speaker 1 (56:21):
You know, yeah, well, I think too. A lot of
people really gave her a lot of shit oh and
blamed her for a lot of things. And I never
thought that was fair. It was not fair at all,
you know, I'm sorry. I get it.

Speaker 2 (56:36):
It could happen to any single mother in the world.

Speaker 1 (56:43):
That can happen.

Speaker 2 (56:45):
So now, Julie did choke up and had to wipe
away tears as she told of being ostracized when she
would venture out with her other son and daughter after
Aton's disappearance.

Speaker 1 (56:58):
Shame on you people in New York. Yep, you're going
in the jone pile. Whoever she's talking about. Next, you're
going in that pile.

Speaker 2 (57:07):
Yeah, because I'm going to get emotional. I was on
the street with them, going around, trying to play like
we used to do, and a group of women came
up to me and said, if I could laugh so
soon after my son's death, obviously I had been responsible
for the murder. That happens more than once. Guys, that

(57:30):
is bullshit. And she still had other children. She had
to still try to fake it until she could make
it and hold it together for them, for them, So
fucking anyone who said that to her, because I am
here to tell you you deserve to go. Just say

(57:54):
a confession, Penance, you're the problem.

Speaker 1 (57:57):
Mm hmm. That is terrible. That is Fuck those bitches,
whoever they are.

Speaker 2 (58:03):
Yeah. Now. She then told the jurors about the fateful
moment Aton left home for the last time that was
just as heartbreaking to her. Thirty five years later, she
lives with this guys every moment of her life.

Speaker 1 (58:19):
How could she not? How could she not?

Speaker 4 (58:23):
Now?

Speaker 1 (58:23):
She said, Aton had been insisting he was big enough
to go off by himself like his big sister, and
was clutching a dollar he earned doing Quote some very
easy non work for a local carpenter. I mean, I
have some dollars.

Speaker 2 (58:40):
In nineteen seventy nine.

Speaker 1 (58:44):
Is from the carmenter of off Neil Miller.

Speaker 2 (58:49):
Like if the tooth Fairy only brings twenty five cents,
why are you getting a dollar?

Speaker 1 (58:58):
Just my thoughts, But my problems was off Meal, not her.
So she goes on to say, quote, when he was ready,
I walked Adon down the stairs on to the sidewalk.
It was kind of a damp and missy morning. I
told him to go straight to the bodega and get
his drink quickly so he didn't miss the bus. It

(59:19):
was about ten minutes to eight when we're finally down
at the sidewalk, and I reminded him to come directly
home from school because we were going away for the
weekend with the Altman family. He was wearing a blue
corduroy jacket and airline pilot cap. The bag and the sneakers.
I don't remember which that was the last time I

(59:42):
saw him. I watched him walk one block away, heading west,
approaching Worcester Street, and I turned around and went back upstairs,
and it was the last time I ever saw him.

Speaker 2 (59:59):
So Sammy Unshine share that I panic so bad that
I was screaming my little names in my front yard.
Who's playing hide and seek? And found a new hiding
spot in our home?

Speaker 1 (01:00:09):
At three years old.

Speaker 2 (01:00:11):
It was all of two minutes, pure torture.

Speaker 1 (01:00:13):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's any parents worst nightmare, I know.
For me, Yeah, it is. Now.

Speaker 2 (01:00:21):
She wanted to say that Aton was totally outgoing and
trusting of everyone, totally non judgmental about people, like most
five year olds. They haven't, you know, learned that. But
at the same time, he was very fearful of being
lost or left alone by himself. Julie said, the bodega

(01:00:44):
where Pedro Hernandez worked was a safe haven for kids.

Speaker 1 (01:00:51):
Yeah. Now, now we're going to start calling some more witnesses, guys,
so buckle up now. On February third, twenty fifteen, the
prosecution called sixty nine year old Juan Santana to the stand,
covering his face there. He was the brother in law
of Pedro Hernandez and the man who managed the bodego

(01:01:15):
where Pedro worked when Aton disappeared. One of the most
important witnesses in my book book.

Speaker 2 (01:01:23):
I have so many questions about Santana. I'm sorry, I
I okay now. Santana's, speaking through a Spanish interpreter, denied
having told investigators that Pedro's last day of work was
May twenty fifth, nineteen seventy nine. He testified he could

(01:01:47):
not remember when Hernandez had started working at the bodega,
and or how long he had worked there, or the
deity left all of a sudden.

Speaker 1 (01:01:58):
You can't remember shit. I mean it was in fairness though,
if this is thirty years, thirty years just saying, I'm
just saying now. After a series of invasive and cont
contradictory answers from Santana, Lucy Orban asked the judge to

(01:02:20):
declare Santana a hostile witness. Love that for you, Joan,
I love that for you because it's your witness. She
then went on to read several statements that he made
to investigators, stating that Pedro's last day of work at
the bodega was the same day Aton vanished.

Speaker 2 (01:02:46):
Okay, my question, sir, is what day did Hernandez leave
to move back to Camden, New Jersey, She asked Santana,
who sarcastically replied, I don't remember. Whoever remembers what they
had for lunch two weeks ago should raise their hand.

Speaker 1 (01:03:07):
I mean, yeah, I'll just say it. I I can't
tell you anything that happened thirty years ago.

Speaker 2 (01:03:19):
On this day, thirty years ago. If I stop and
think about it, I could and just see y'all. No,
I don't know if y'all are hearing the little pings.
Monkey Butt had her first volleyball game tonight.

Speaker 1 (01:03:32):
She made the volleyball team, and.

Speaker 2 (01:03:36):
I my daughter in love is just blowing me up
with videos and I'm like, it's a life stream.

Speaker 1 (01:03:43):
My mac A just keeps popping up like Lily don't
hear the dings. But finally you let her know. Lama
is so proud of it. Don't let her launch this
show because I cuss a lot in this one, but you, oh,
I already super proud of her, and that's anodding right
for tonight. But I will let her know that. And
just on the side note, cappen.

Speaker 2 (01:04:04):
You're right. If you aren't following the bodega cad account online,
you really need to reconsider your social media followings.

Speaker 1 (01:04:13):
I don't know what that means.

Speaker 2 (01:04:15):
And somebody, well, you're not on social media, so maybe
a YouTube. No I followed them. I think it's on
the top. Oh, but I will record screen, record a
video and post it because it's adorable.

Speaker 1 (01:04:31):
That's amazing. Now back to Santana here. So he goes
on to say he also said the basement entrance was
routinely kept locked and that it was unlikely Hernandez could
have gained access. You cannot remember whether the police had
searched the bodega the first night of the boys disappearance,

(01:04:53):
perhaps because he customarily left the store in the early evening.
Look at that, that's un as creepy, creepy.

Speaker 2 (01:05:01):
I'm like, that is duel?

Speaker 1 (01:05:03):
Is creepy?

Speaker 4 (01:05:06):
Shit?

Speaker 2 (01:05:09):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (01:05:11):
They do? They do.

Speaker 2 (01:05:14):
Also in New York, I hear that there is a
cafe where you can go and have coffee and a
spot of tea and some sandwiches, and they have cats
and you can just love on the cats.

Speaker 1 (01:05:25):
We have a cat cafe here, And you didn't take
me I'm allergic to.

Speaker 2 (01:05:31):
Cats, and that's my problem.

Speaker 1 (01:05:33):
How well, I wasn't taking you like what you now.

Speaker 2 (01:05:40):
Guys, buckle up because during cross examination, he remembered police
searching the bodega all of a sudden, including the basement.
Days later. Now, as soon as the jurors were dismissed
for the day, Fishmane jumped up and demanded a mistrial,

(01:06:01):
arguing that Santana was set up on the stand. I mean,
think about it, but Judge Wiley was Wiley and denied
this motion.

Speaker 1 (01:06:15):
Sulley is the worst. She just s crashed at the
door to go side. So because my brother's outside, right,
he opens the door, she just walks back into the kitchen.
It's just being nosy. I guess.

Speaker 2 (01:06:29):
I'm like she's got fomo mama.

Speaker 1 (01:06:32):
No, I didn't include it here, but I think we
talked about it in one of the other episodes that
it like it was known that like nobody was allowed
in the basement.

Speaker 2 (01:06:41):
Right, it was at all we talked about it. Yeah,
you had to have a key. They even had an
extra gate or something that so.

Speaker 1 (01:06:48):
You couldn't get in.

Speaker 2 (01:06:49):
So it is very likely.

Speaker 1 (01:06:53):
The maedro at a key that he had a key. No,
I don't think he did exactly. So how oh, I'm sorry,
I haven't misheard what you said. Yeah, I was like, no,
he definitely did not. You ain't give him some eighteen
year old you know, he's the word.

Speaker 2 (01:07:09):
I'm going to just tell you, if I had to
work downstairs and go into that basement, I would quit my.

Speaker 1 (01:07:15):
Job right now. Next up on the witness stand is
Raymond Rodriguez, who is now seventy five at the time
of this trial. He took the stand now he was
a one time church friend of Pedro's, and said that
in the summer of nineteen seventy nine, just months after

(01:07:37):
Aton's disappearance, he and Pedro were walking on a farm
at a church retreat in New Jersey when Pedro confessed
to him that he lured the child into his family's
Soho badega and then stabbed him to death with a broomstick,
which okay doesn't check out real, okay, okay?

Speaker 2 (01:08:00):
Now said he said that Pedro said, every day I
see the kids walking by, and I took one of
these kids to go to the basement and offered him
a soda. I took a stick and shove him a lot,
and this is what Ramon said Pedro told him. Is

(01:08:21):
he also, excuse me, acted out th resting a sharp
object up and down. Why would you need to enact this?

Speaker 1 (01:08:33):
I mean.

Speaker 2 (01:08:35):
He has something in his heart he had to get out.

Speaker 1 (01:08:39):
Yeah, did he tell you he did something else to
the boy asked a loozy orban. It came to my
mind he may have abused the kid then got rid
of him, said Rodriguez, who then said Pedro didn't admit that.
I'm sure there was an objection to that comments. But now.

Speaker 2 (01:09:08):
Yeah, Devin's attorney, Fishbain brought up Ramone's conflicting accounts to
investigators over the years. Now, I wanted to say, the
man is seventy five years old. I am not expecting
his mental capacity to be as what it was thirty
years ago, but his conflictions are interesting. In June twenty twelve,

(01:09:33):
Ramone told investigators that Pedro claimed he'd enticed the boy
with candy, then abused him. A few months later, he
told authorities that a friend at the retreat told him
the details of abuse, not Pedro.

Speaker 1 (01:09:48):
So cross this guy off your fucking list.

Speaker 2 (01:09:51):
Of like, not a good person for a witness, Not credible.

Speaker 1 (01:09:58):
Right, Sammy. Now, when Fish being confronted him about the discrepancies,
Roman became uncomfortable and admitted he might have said abuse.
At some point, I did the very best I could.
He blurted, there's no reason to kill a kid. There's
no reason. I agree. I agree, but no, you are

(01:10:23):
not now on my list of witnesses that don't matter.

Speaker 2 (01:10:27):
Next, let's just say you're irrelevant to me.

Speaker 1 (01:10:30):
Sorry, Raymond. Maybe it's telling the truth. But even if
he is telling the truth, right, Pedro is eighteen years old,
we know that he has mental health issues that he
doesn't even know that he probably has quite yet, maybe
because he was like he did have troubles in school.

Speaker 2 (01:10:46):
But like the nties, it was not what it is today.

Speaker 1 (01:10:52):
You know the fact honestly, the fact that I even
heard he got a bunch of treatment during this time
is how you know how bad it is it was
for him. I mean, otherwise it just wasn't available.

Speaker 2 (01:11:06):
So well, okay, before I get into my next session,
I just have to say cap'in, I love you, because no, Google,
she did not mean patio conception. Just has to share
for you guys what I'm reading on the back end.
Because every now and then I get little comments or

(01:11:27):
my son or somebody will say, why are you snickering
at that place? You shouldn't have been snickering because I'm
reading things that say, no, Google, I did not mean
Patty of Conception.

Speaker 1 (01:11:39):
Yes, Capin makes the best titles. First, Like it's like
seeing her consciousness in like real time. She's putting stuff together,
and it's fantastic.

Speaker 2 (01:11:48):
It's so great because this stuff is so dark. I mean,
it really helps. But seventy nine year old Motto Concepcion
told jurors that Pedro also told him at the New
Jersey nineteen seventy nine religious retreat that he had killed
a child.

Speaker 1 (01:12:08):
At the Small Mustache.

Speaker 2 (01:12:11):
Pedro was cried, Yeah, said Pedro was crying. He said
that he worked in a budeka here in New York.
He grabbed a child. He gave him a soda. He
took him to the basement, and in the basement he
said that he abused him. He said I cut him.

(01:12:31):
After I cut him, he said, I put him in
a plastic bag and I threw him in the garbage. Now,
when loser Joan Luzy Orbone asked him why he hadn't
called the police when he heard this. Patio said that
he thought the man wasn't well as he did the

(01:12:52):
crazy gesture around the side.

Speaker 1 (01:12:54):
Of his head, so he didn't believe shit that he said,
and what he did say doesn't make any sense. Essex say, Yeah,
I mean, there's the first of all, even if he
had done this and did stab Aton or whatever, there's

(01:13:16):
no way this guy cleaned up that. SCEAT likes to say,
how did he clean up the There's no time. There's
no time anyway.

Speaker 2 (01:13:26):
And I don't think he had the wherewithal to know. Yeah,
I'm sorry, guys, they are selling me a story that
I'm not yet buying.

Speaker 1 (01:13:38):
No now. Next up was Daisy Riviera, Pedro's ex wife,
his old neighbor Mark Pike, and his brother in law
Josey Lopez, who all took the stand and recounted confessions
that Pedro had told them in the early eighties. Now,
we pretty much covered everything that they ended up testing

(01:13:59):
testifying to in part two of the stories, so we're
not gonna repeat their testimony. Go watch that and find
out what they they had to say about that. And also, uh,
you know, it doesn't matter really. Daisy is gonna.

Speaker 2 (01:14:18):
I'm just gonna say, Daisy.

Speaker 1 (01:14:21):
Is that who he was looking like? And reminded me
of because I was starting who is who? Me too?
Me too?

Speaker 2 (01:14:29):
Thank you, Kavin. Now, for the first time in the trial,
jurors got to hear Pedro's taped confession with the eighty
A armand Doris Dante Drews watched the video intently in
several vigorously scribbled notes.

Speaker 1 (01:14:48):
Yeah, I asked him if he wanted something to drink,
a soda or something, and he said yeah. And I
told him to come down to the basement with me,
and we actually video of that that we're going to listen.

Speaker 4 (01:15:02):
To anyone behind me then if they told us were
on this side. So he was in front of me,
So when you were in front of me, I grabbed
him by the neck.

Speaker 7 (01:15:17):
H and I said, choking him. I was nervous. I
was my little was joking. And what did we let go?

Speaker 4 (01:15:27):
Was I just couldn't let's go. It was like something
I felt like something just took over me and I
don't know, it was like I felt like some something
just took over me. And I just choke him. When
I was shocking him, he was going and he anyone

(01:15:51):
looked at that, Yeah, and then he wasn't down to
the floor.

Speaker 1 (01:16:03):
No, I never expect that voice either. That's very so.
I know we've heard this thing before, but it always
surprises me as well.

Speaker 2 (01:16:13):
Well, before you go on, I have to ask if
you were a juror and you saw this, because you
know we heard that study earlier, you feel like you
can determine if somebody's telling the truth from that.

Speaker 1 (01:16:27):
From that, not really, I mean now they saw a
much longer. They watched the whole thing in the fifty seconds,
not really, so, I mean I would love to sit
and watch the whole the whole thing for sure, But
I mean that doesn't it doesn't really do it for me.
But I am very like particular about even taking things

(01:16:55):
into consideration. So Angie says, can you summarize what he said? Yes,
Angiecaus goes, what, That's what I'm going to do next.
So thank you for bringing us into our nice little segue. Now,
he says, when he was in front of me, I
grabbed his neck and I started to choke him. I
was nervous and his legs were jerking. And that's when

(01:17:17):
he's using the hand around his neck to demonstrate how
he strangled Aton allegedly.

Speaker 2 (01:17:26):
Then he went on to say, when I choked him,
I tried to let go, but my body was shaking
and jumping at the same time. I wanted to just
let him go, but there was something that took over
in me, and I squeezed him more and more, and
then he went like this, Hernande said, dropping his head

(01:17:49):
to the side as though it had gone limp.

Speaker 1 (01:17:53):
Now, although Aton collapsed from the surprise attack, he didn't
die and was still gasping for air, Hernandez said, as
he mimicked the final utterance of the desperate child. He
then went on to describe putting PTA's still wriggling body
into a plastic bag, tying it and then pushing the

(01:18:17):
bagged body into a cardboard box. Makes that make sense.
He's still live in a box and he carries him
for a whole block in the morning in New York City.

Speaker 2 (01:18:31):
Even in seventy nine. Yeah, I yeah, so.

Speaker 1 (01:18:41):
Right now, it makes sense.

Speaker 2 (01:18:44):
Dir Santi asks, what did you think when you put
him in the back? Pedro replied that he would suffocate.
Dir Santi continued, did you want that? Pedro said at
the time, yes, because I was afraid of what I did,
so I figured that if he'd be alive, he could

(01:19:07):
put me away. He said he'd put the box on
his shoulder and carried it a few blocks away from
the bodega and dumped it at the entrance.

Speaker 1 (01:19:17):
Of a narrow alleyway.

Speaker 2 (01:19:21):
Right, you must have been thinking about something when you
approach this boy. It was just something. It was just
like something snapped in me, he answered. Guys, look at
this man. He is not a whole cogan, Okay, Captain.

(01:19:44):
I had to remind myself when I heard this sound,
I'm like, she's born wine, she's not ping, because all
of a sudden, I got the feeling that I needed
to go to the restroom when I heard it. But
I mean, even an eighteen year old stout gully, this
is excuse the term dead weight in a box just

(01:20:05):
up on one shoulder. I don't think it's possible.

Speaker 1 (01:20:13):
I mean, I don't know. I don't buy it. I
don't buy it. And Hernandez told Durasdanti he felt bad
for what he did, but showed no emotion until he
began talking about his abusive alcoholic father. Maybe it's because
one of those was real and the other one wasn't good,

(01:20:34):
not a professional quote. He used to beat us with
the horse's whip, you know, the leather one. And he
used to beat us with a belt buckle until we bled,
he said, weeping and sniffling. I mean, look at that.
He is capable of real emotions. Yeah, oh goodness, you guys.

Speaker 2 (01:21:02):
Okay, I just have to say, chat is really bringing
the game. I'm just gonna say, because we need some
of these things now, Simmy ask why would he make
this up? Simmy, I don't know if you were here earlier.

(01:21:23):
He is mentally challenged. His IQ is what sixty seven
or something, It is low, so he is very easily
you can suggest things to him. He also, at the
time he made these statements, he had a fentanel patch
on his shoulder to help with body pain.

Speaker 1 (01:21:46):
So that's and in twenty twelve, Oh this was twenty twelve.
I'm sorry. Yeah, no, when he this this interview happens,
it's twenty twelve, so like we all know that's what
he was. Well, yeah, but no, but like they were
just giving a shoot out to everybody, you know what

(01:22:07):
I mean, Like that's true for all sorts of things.
We don't even know how long he had been on
that patch for as well.

Speaker 2 (01:22:14):
And with his mental thing once he got that story
in his mind, just oh my gosh. So weeks into
this multi month trial, the court was notified that three
boxes of Aton Pates his investigation material, turned up in

(01:22:36):
a Harlem by the NYPD cleaning out a storage space,
including one box that both prosecution and defense knowledge might
include important information about Jose Ramos.

Speaker 1 (01:22:51):
Always great when this pops up in the middle of
a trial. Oh, it's great, it's great.

Speaker 2 (01:22:56):
Now I just have to ask, why didn't the judge
just say, we're going to declare a mistrial.

Speaker 1 (01:23:05):
It's more complicated than that.

Speaker 2 (01:23:08):
That is a lot of fucking evidence, it is.

Speaker 1 (01:23:13):
I'll say it's more complicated than that. I mean, I
agree at this point, and he.

Speaker 2 (01:23:19):
Waited this here, tell us some of the stuff that's
in the box.

Speaker 1 (01:23:22):
All right. So some of the stuff that was in
the box was a police interview of Jose Ramos, index
cards for everyone interviewed in the case, a card for
every psychic used in the case, which makes sound like
a lot, which is interesting. Okay, we didn't give up

(01:23:43):
after the first few that were wrong, but okay, then
they also had alleged sightings of Aton Pates in there.

Speaker 2 (01:23:51):
Guys. They also had letter to the Pates family that
they gave police over the years, including reports of citing
and notes of condolences, the debris things of an informant
in the case mm HM case notes from a detective
who lived in Jose Ramos's building as a child in

(01:24:14):
years later interviewed tenants who had been Ramos's neighbors. Many
people were called seeing Aton Pates in the building with
Ramos and his girlfriend Sandy Harmon. If you haven't seen
the previous two episodes, you need.

Speaker 1 (01:24:32):
To go back. You need to know where those people are.
Oh my god, what's so frustrating.

Speaker 2 (01:24:37):
It's like you need to go back because I feel
like there was also a civil suit.

Speaker 1 (01:24:44):
Yes, where Jose was found liable and responsible for the
wrongful death of Aton Pates, but not criminal charges. Now,
the discovery of this new possible evidence raise a lot
of questions. Would defense call for a mistrial, would witnesses

(01:25:07):
who have already testified need to be recalled, and would
new possible witnesses be required to appear. I mean, this
is a mess.

Speaker 2 (01:25:19):
I'm like this just like a circus. Now, in court
on watch fourth, our lovely prosecutor Joan Lucy Arbon told
the courts that a man contacted them saying he could
be Aton Pays.

Speaker 1 (01:25:36):
She said she show expectives.

Speaker 2 (01:25:38):
To interview the man and handed the defense team a
police report. He had thought in his head that maybe
he's Aton. We get calls from people and sometimes people
are concerned that they may be Aton Pays.

Speaker 1 (01:25:57):
I can't imagine if this trial was streamed, watching it
like this is a crazy trial.

Speaker 2 (01:26:02):
By the way, I have to tell you, if we
streamed this trial, I would be an alcoholic at the
end of those three months, because.

Speaker 1 (01:26:12):
Yeah, yeah, I would be too. I would be too,
and I'll be honest. It's say I'm a shamed that
it wasn't because it should be now. Next up was
Becky Hernandez, Pedro's twenty five year old daughter, took the
stand as the defense's first witness. She talked about how

(01:26:35):
her dad was an obsessively overprotective dad. He'd hold my
hand even when I was fourteen or fifteen old enough
to walk across the street by myself. God, I love
her Jackets. I'll that's weird.

Speaker 2 (01:26:54):
But she said that he required her to provide two
weeks written notice before or he'd even allow her to
see friends. And the college graduate wasn't allowed to be
home alone until she was twenty, and her father drove
her and picked her up from all of her classes.

Speaker 1 (01:27:13):
It's weird.

Speaker 2 (01:27:14):
I mean, it's a little over protective. But I have
to say, you have a fourteen year old now, don't
you want to hold his hand?

Speaker 1 (01:27:22):
Sometimes? Yes, I was still hold his hand crossing the street.

Speaker 2 (01:27:28):
Okay, of like go and go. I don't find that weird.
And I have to tell you, even when I was twenty,
my mom's I didn't live at home, I was about
to have a child. My mom still didn't want me
being home alone when my husband worked.

Speaker 1 (01:27:50):
I mean, he's alone, so over protective.

Speaker 2 (01:27:54):
It's a little over protective. But if we look at
what happened in Pedro's life, exactly been abused. And I
mean it.

Speaker 1 (01:28:02):
Was a very strict religious childhood. So it's actually not.

Speaker 2 (01:28:07):
Saying it was okay, But I'm just saying that it's.

Speaker 1 (01:28:14):
Yeah, Becky is cute.

Speaker 2 (01:28:17):
Becky is so cute, And all I know is that
Mama Lama is just sitting there going yep, I should
have locked Llama up until she was twina.

Speaker 1 (01:28:32):
Now, Defense attorney Fishman asked her whether she loved her father. Yes,
I know he's protective because he loves me, she said tearfully.
It's the little things that show that he cares, and
that's why I love him now.

Speaker 2 (01:28:51):
She did talk about her dad being a bit of
a loner, that he would often talk to himself and
he had difficulty breaking from routine. After Pedro confessed to
cops in twenty twelve, he admitted the horrific crime to
his daughter.

Speaker 4 (01:29:08):
She said.

Speaker 1 (01:29:10):
And cross examination, prosecutor Joan Lusey Orban asked Becky whether
she understood that her father's overprotective behavior was abusive, and
she replied yes.

Speaker 2 (01:29:25):
I mean.

Speaker 1 (01:29:27):
Yes, but your point being relevance, Joan. But that's his
own kid. Of course he's gonna be overprotected.

Speaker 2 (01:29:39):
I'm Mike. I guys, I have a problem with that
statement because when you take into account is low iq.
Nobody is taking in the whole peicture, their picture peakschew.
They're just taken in little bitty bits and pieces. They're
just not seeing the whole picture. And I have a

(01:30:00):
problem with that to call that abuse.

Speaker 1 (01:30:03):
Yeah, Hi, Kathy.

Speaker 2 (01:30:06):
So, defense expert witness doctor Michael First, was one of
the first people to talk with Pedro Hernandez after his arrest.
He said that at first, Pedro didn't say anything about
seeing hallucinations on the day of Aton's disappearance.

Speaker 1 (01:30:27):
Yeah, now, okay, there's Michael. There's Michael First. I was
waiting for a picture of him because I actually didn't
know what he looked like, and I was like, hmmm,
is this gonna make me anyway? But Pedro would then
describe that there were more than a dozen ghoulish faces

(01:30:49):
staring at him as he choked little Aton pat Paige
to death. Quote, there were fifteen people in the room
with him. In addition into elderly men and women dressed
in nursing home gowns, there was also two little girls,
one boy, one man dressed in a suit, and a

(01:31:11):
woman in a pearl necklace with business clothes. Because you
know that makes sense?

Speaker 2 (01:31:20):
Do you want to know what just popped in my head?
This is why I do not look at the visuals
before we go live.

Speaker 1 (01:31:33):
I love this, It's perfect.

Speaker 2 (01:31:34):
I love this. I love this. But hearing you say this,
even though I've read all of it, it makes me
wonder if at some point he had been locked up
in what they call the asane asylums. I know, I
don't know what the proper term was back in the days,
because that's what my mind visions them to be.

Speaker 1 (01:31:57):
Oh no, I believe he was in and out of them.

Speaker 2 (01:32:00):
Harvey or.

Speaker 1 (01:32:03):
The family feud guy, Steve Harvey.

Speaker 2 (01:32:06):
Yes, Steve Harvey.

Speaker 1 (01:32:07):
Yes, Okay, there's a little something for everyone in there.

Speaker 3 (01:32:11):
Six.

Speaker 2 (01:32:12):
Yeah, there's a whole lot in there now, she Shu did.
When he walked up the stairs carrying the boy in
the bag in the box, he said, they all parted
on the steps to let him pass by. Then they
followed him up out of the basement and left him
at the bodega as he walked.

Speaker 1 (01:32:34):
Makes sense now. Doctor First had interviewed Pedro for a
total of eight hours and just diagnosed him with schiziotypical disorder,
which he described as a milder version of schizophrenia. It's
it's not much better, mildest, still not great. Okay, So

(01:32:55):
to Pedro, the people in the room and the confession
were equally real, he testified. Now. Pedro claim also claimed
to have superpowers that can detect evil spirits and predict
the future. Guys, this doesn't work, This doesn't look great. Okay,

(01:33:17):
would you be taking anything this shit or Valo? I
have way more sympathy for Pedro than her, and that's her.
Damn sure.

Speaker 2 (01:33:29):
I going to just say that Laurie is a whole
different kind of creak crap mm hmm. Pedro is truly
suffering mental illness, has a low eye. Let's just thought
even think about her. Okay, yeah, so he believed. Okay,

(01:33:52):
now that we're seeing BORI vallow see, guys, this is
where shiny balls pep pep in my own mind? Did
you see that she's her son a message during crime
Con because her living son was part of the crime
con panel. She sent a message to the guy interviewing

(01:34:14):
him and asked him what he thought, and it was
a biblical thing and he said, oh, that's just her
being her.

Speaker 1 (01:34:23):
Fuck her.

Speaker 2 (01:34:25):
Yeah, so now he believed that he has the power
to know someone has an evil spirit or good spirit.
Doctor First testified he believes he can see something and
that means it will happen in the future. Okay. He
also said that Pedro was intensely paranoid. He believes people

(01:34:51):
can read his mind and that people are trying to
get in his head, and he believes he has the power,
ability and skill to block that from happening.

Speaker 1 (01:35:02):
Yeah. So totally a reliable narrator for something that happened
thirty years ago. Yes, sign me up for this fucking
guy and get out of here now. The defense played
a nineteen eighty two videotape of a police interview with

(01:35:24):
Jose Ramos. That's not Jose, that's Pedro. That's not that's no.
Noos is a crep. That's that's Pedro.

Speaker 2 (01:35:34):
Next as to say, that's patrol.

Speaker 1 (01:35:37):
Yeah. Next. Now. In that video, prosecutors questioned him about
the disappearance and the numerous photos of children that were
plastered across his hideout.

Speaker 2 (01:35:54):
Like, the number of petals in this episode is disturbing.

Speaker 1 (01:36:05):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:36:06):
Now. In the grainy black and white video, former Bronx
prosecutor Frank Carroll asked, did you know about a Todd? Yes,
he answers. Susan used to take care of him. Ramos
once dated Susan Harrington aka Sandy Harmon, who is an
occasional caretaker for the Pats. I know, why do you

(01:36:31):
need two names?

Speaker 1 (01:36:32):
I don't know. It's very confusing. So I don't know
why she has two names. Also, so it's very hard.
This is a side note, all right, it is very
hard to get a third party culprit defense. Okay, you
cannot just go into court and blame it on somebody

(01:36:54):
else's that's you can't do that, right. You have to
file for a third paridy defense. You have to provide
sufficient evidence that that person maybe could maybe could to
be approved for that. So it's very important in this
case that people understand how hard it is to have

(01:37:14):
a third party culporate defense and how solid that has
to really be.

Speaker 2 (01:37:21):
It has to be.

Speaker 1 (01:37:22):
So just want to if case you didn't know, now
you know, thank you, jo You're welcome. You're welcome. I
got a gamble here and everything. I am ready to
rule on Joan. Now anyway, where were Yeah, there we go.
That's Tozy fucking Ramos. Hate that guy. Now remember Stuart

(01:37:45):
graboas right, that guy, the former assistant US attorney who
was hell bent on Jose Ramos being the killer. Well
he testified for the defense.

Speaker 2 (01:37:58):
That's right.

Speaker 1 (01:37:59):
A a federal prosecutor is testifying for the defense. Hy bells,
hy Bell. Sorry, I had to say hi to my
Texas girl. No, that's fine. Hi.

Speaker 2 (01:38:14):
So he testified that Jose Romos told him in nineteen
eighty eight, oh this year graduated high school, that he
was ninety percent sure he met the boy near Washington
Square Park the day he disappeared. Disappeared. Garba said that
Ramos claimed he had taken Aton to his East Village

(01:38:35):
apartment and tried to have sex with him, but that
the child rejected his vile advances and Ramos put him
on a train. Okay, I just have to say, you
do not try to have sex with a five year old.

Speaker 1 (01:38:55):
No, no, But Jose Rollins is a piece of shit,
so he would say something like that.

Speaker 2 (01:39:02):
But the fact that he thought that was okay to
say yeah, because he's tells you what kind of person
he is.

Speaker 1 (01:39:09):
Exactly exactly he said, I want to tell you this,
I want to get it off my chest, but I
want an attorney first, which okay, fine. But but after
asking for a lawyer, Ramos stopped talking to I mean,
I just listen, this is this is insane that a

(01:39:33):
federal attorney, prosecutor attorney is testifying in the defense for
this trial. Who was I means crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:39:42):
It says a lot because you don't see that very often.

Speaker 1 (01:39:46):
No at all.

Speaker 2 (01:39:49):
At all.

Speaker 1 (01:39:50):
I mean that person be like jeopardizing his potentially jeopardizing
his career, his cases. It's a federal you know, employee
that is way more credible than pretty much all of
the prosecution's witnesses. Like, in my opinion, that holds a

(01:40:11):
lot of weight for me.

Speaker 2 (01:40:12):
Oh for me, I take him as more credible.

Speaker 1 (01:40:15):
Than days Santana.

Speaker 2 (01:40:20):
Let me just start my list now. The defense asked
the judge if they can do a demonstration for jurors,
which I love.

Speaker 1 (01:40:31):
They wanted to show the jurors.

Speaker 2 (01:40:33):
The difficulty of carrying fifty pounds on one shoulder by
bringing in a banana box filled with potatoes and trying
to lift it in a similar manner that Pedro had
allegedly carried a ton's body two blocks away. Guys. The

(01:40:54):
judge denied this, and I'm sorry, I think that was
a very reasonable demonstration. I don't know if you should
put it in a banana box. Maybe you make it
a nondescript box.

Speaker 1 (01:41:09):
Well, Pedro specifically said banana box, I know, but for
scientific purposes.

Speaker 2 (01:41:16):
Banana box with brown paper, because it's the visual for me,
would have been like why are you carrying potatoes in
a box? I would have never.

Speaker 1 (01:41:26):
But right I think it's just saying no, because he
was like, that's not scientific enough, and it's like, well, sir,
you need to take that up with MythBusters. Okay, because.

Speaker 2 (01:41:40):
Hound child who's willing to get in a box and
try to be carried.

Speaker 1 (01:41:46):
Or just stick with the potatoes, Terry, we don't need
to bring brings small child.

Speaker 2 (01:41:50):
If the judge felt that the potatoes weren't scientific enough,
why can't you get a child?

Speaker 1 (01:41:56):
I don't know. I mean, I don't think they necessary
really needed to demonstrate it, but maybe for some people
maybe they did. I mean me, carrying anything on one
shoulder for two blocks is a hard No. Fifty pounds
for ten pounds, I'm not doing it.

Speaker 2 (01:42:15):
I mean, I just think about carrying my kids or
my grandkids when they were fifteen or twenty pounds and
you're constantly flipping from hip to hip.

Speaker 1 (01:42:24):
Yeah, fifty pounds, yeah, I would be a making sense.
I'd be laying on the streets. Who see is alive?

Speaker 2 (01:42:36):
Get a child actor from the rehearsal exactly, and they
would be moving.

Speaker 1 (01:42:42):
I didn't picture the rehearsal type Terry the show fly.
That's a show.

Speaker 2 (01:42:49):
I know what you're talking about, But why would you
imply that I wouldn't.

Speaker 1 (01:42:54):
I don't know. I just didn't see you as a
Nathan Fielder fan, It's all I'm saying. I love that now.
I love that for you.

Speaker 2 (01:43:00):
A lot of things you don't know about me.

Speaker 1 (01:43:02):
And I love that too. I learned new stuff about
you every day.

Speaker 2 (01:43:08):
So now tell me about the next guy.

Speaker 1 (01:43:11):
All right, So the next guy is Jeffrey Rothschild. Now,
he was a career conman. Okay. He shared a cell
with Jose Ramos in an Orange County prison in nineteen
ninety one. Now, after weeks of gaining his trust, Ramos
showed him on a hand drawn map where he picked

(01:43:35):
up pates near his Soho home. I think we talked
about this in like part one, but we didn't name
the guy, but we're naming him now now. Ramos said
he'd taken the child to his East fourth Street apartment
and sodomized him. He said the boy was dead, but
didn't necessarily admit that he killed him.

Speaker 2 (01:44:01):
Now, I just need to point out I don't think
this Rothschild is part of the Rothschild family. Dim in
is he I didn't go down that.

Speaker 1 (01:44:12):
We're not gonna go down to Rothschild right now, but
don't leave us in any comments. Please think about that.

Speaker 2 (01:44:20):
So he said that bastard knows I did it. Ramos
told Rothschild about a federal prosecutor who was trying to
build a case against him for the boy's murder. He said,
he can't prove it, and it's killing him. Good, let
it kill him. Let it kill him.

Speaker 1 (01:44:42):
We'll both be buried next to Aton.

Speaker 2 (01:44:46):
Hmm. And I said, is the boy dead? And he said,
what the fuck do you think? Of course he's dead,
but there's no proof.

Speaker 1 (01:45:00):
How does that not hold more weight than the other
bullshit we've heard by other people. I mean, one of
those actually sounds amendment and possible.

Speaker 2 (01:45:12):
But he's also a con man and he could be
conning people. So I hold the prosecutor more.

Speaker 1 (01:45:21):
I mean, greb what worked hand in hand with this guy?

Speaker 4 (01:45:25):
Right?

Speaker 1 (01:45:26):
So that's the only reason why these informants I am
giving a little bit more credibility with That's just me.
That's just me. Not everybody's like that. But he also
was like, he's a con he's not a predator, you know,
what I mean.

Speaker 2 (01:45:40):
Right, that's true. He was one of the non petos.

Speaker 1 (01:45:44):
Yeah, he was in there for I think fraud charges,
which like, okay, I mean, he's in federal prison for
basically white collar crimes. It sounds like, you know, and
he's rooming with a fucking pedo. So I don't know.
He didn't get any time off of anything, because that's
not how federal works. So I'm just.

Speaker 2 (01:46:05):
Saying, sorry, I'm laughing at Captain that she's talking about
Yodro clown. I'm like, okay, it does look like a
Yadro clown.

Speaker 1 (01:46:17):
Now let's get into closing arguments, shall we.

Speaker 2 (01:46:21):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (01:46:22):
Now, In Fishman's closing argument, he argued that convicted child
molester Jose Ramos is the real killer and that Pedro's
videotape confessions are unreliable and inconsistent. We did not hear,
nor can they prove that he's a child killer. There's

(01:46:45):
no evidence to support it. You did find out why
Aton Pates disappeared because it was not but it was
not because of Pedro Hernandez. It was because of Jose Ramos. Powerful.

Speaker 2 (01:47:02):
Yeah. Now, Fishman spent more than a third of his
five hour closing I know of like five freaking hour.

Speaker 1 (01:47:15):
For a closing, yo alike.

Speaker 2 (01:47:19):
That judge didn't say, you've got an hour and a half.

Speaker 1 (01:47:25):
I don't know if I've heard a longer. I mean
there are longer ones, but holy crap.

Speaker 2 (01:47:29):
Now, but he spent that time pointing the finger at
Ramos while the pedophile's creepy black and white mugshot was
up on the TV. I mean, what we know about
Ramos is that he is the person described by the
prosecutor in her opening. He is a manipulative person. He

(01:47:53):
is cunning, he is keen, he had opportunity, he had motive,
he has history.

Speaker 1 (01:48:02):
Yep, jege Lama.

Speaker 2 (01:48:04):
What I want to know from you is why couldn't
he add that he was also found liable in a
civil court for the murder.

Speaker 1 (01:48:18):
I believe that it's either at this time, I think
the family withdrew that verdict because it would have been
brought up in the trial. And I want to say,
before the trial started, they withdrew it and did away
with it memory wise on that I.

Speaker 2 (01:48:42):
Because they firmly believe that Pedro did it.

Speaker 1 (01:48:45):
Yes, switch, I think it was. I think it was
taken back or canceled whatever you want to call him
vacated before the trial. It definitely was before or after
the trial. I can tell you that. Also, it could
have been banned from talking about well, so I think
that's happened. Sometimes it should.

Speaker 2 (01:49:06):
Have been relevant because a previous jury.

Speaker 1 (01:49:10):
And I think it was one st bar for million dollars.
It's crazy. Okay, thank you check, Yeah, you're well now.
Fishman argued again, argued that the investigators coerced the confession
from a man with low intelligence and a history of
mental illness during a six and a half hour interrogation

(01:49:33):
before it was filmed.

Speaker 2 (01:49:35):
Was like this, It was twenty four hours total.

Speaker 1 (01:49:37):
People, yes, consecutively. Really. Now, this is a case with
two confessions. One is by Pedro Hernandez, the other by Ramos.
Both cannot be true. You must exclude Hoosey Ramos in

(01:49:58):
order to convict Pedro Hernandez. I mean he did.

Speaker 2 (01:50:09):
I mean he was impactful because he makes absolute sense.

Speaker 1 (01:50:14):
I mean he does. Yeah. Now comes Razor says, it's
jose or even Neil Miller. The simplest answer is you are.
The simplest result is.

Speaker 2 (01:50:28):
Yeah. Now in prosecutor Joan eluci Or Bond, also known
as incompetent. Her closing argument, she deconstructed the defense's claim
that a convicted child molester was Aton's true killer and
put the flame back on Pedro Hernandez. You have evidence

(01:50:55):
beyond a reasonable doubt that Pedro Hernandez murdered pay on
that morning May twenty fifth, nineteen seventy nine. Day after
day he saw this beautiful little boy alone, and one
day he acted on his impulse and did something terrible
to this little boy. And for the rest of his

(01:51:17):
life he was waiting to be discovered.

Speaker 1 (01:51:22):
She did concede that a longtime suspect in the case,
Jose Ramos, is a despicable pedophile. You don't say, Joan, Oh,
you don't say. But that doesn't mean he's guilty of
this crime. Oh yeah, right, of course you can't say that, Joan,
because if you say that, then you have fucking case. Okay,

(01:51:44):
of course, sure to say that anyway. So Eluzy ORBN
challenged the credibility of former US attorney Graboas and the
two informants. Girl, but you're gonna rely on fucking daisy.

(01:52:07):
Get out of here, Get out of here, Joan, Get
out of here.

Speaker 2 (01:52:13):
Joan was looking for an easy win.

Speaker 1 (01:52:21):
Anyway. She also said that Pedro's disturbing twenty twelve videotaped
confession wasn't a mentally ill man's fantasy, but that of
a keen and cunning child killer. I wonder what kind
of I you it does take to even be considered

(01:52:42):
keen or cunning, because I like a seven year old,
eight year old or something like that. You were keen
and cunning for thirty years. This fucking guy did that
to all of you normal functioning people. Get out of here, Joan.

Speaker 2 (01:53:01):
She is the piece of work, is all I'm gonna say.
Because with that IQ level, his hallucinations everything. Oh could
she possibly believe this? I meaning, but went on to say,
for everybody who wants to see justice done, most people

(01:53:22):
hope justice can be done by some other people some
other place, at some other time. But you're the people,
this is the place and this is the time. She
told the jurors.

Speaker 1 (01:53:41):
Really, Joan, that's a bet she got it, Like, oh,
you guys haven't done anything in the last thirty years,
but now now we got it. You know, we saw
U date now whatever Jones now. Jurors began deliberations on
April fifteenth, twenty fifteen team. On April twenty ninth, that's

(01:54:03):
several days later, the jury sent a note to the
judge saying, we the jury, after ten days of deliberations,
want to let the court know we are unable to
reach an unanimous decision.

Speaker 2 (01:54:25):
But guys, guess what. The judge encouraged the panel of
seven men and five women to go back and try harder.
Given the nature of this case, I don't think you've
been considering this case long enough to conclude you can't
reach a verdict, the judge told them, over the objection

(01:54:48):
of the defense lawyer, who insisted that a mistrial be declared.

Speaker 1 (01:54:56):
Then on thank you, babe, look at that. Just fine?
All both feet?

Speaker 2 (01:55:02):
Where's mine?

Speaker 1 (01:55:03):
I got shrampy, shramp mobo.

Speaker 2 (01:55:06):
Fate, I got nutting.

Speaker 1 (01:55:11):
My thought he liked me. I think they're good, Fine,
they're fine. Okay, Well anyway, So on May eighth, the
jurors told the judge again that they were deadlocked. But
despite the arguments from the defense lawyers against sending them
back once again to deliberate, Judge Wiley did just that.

(01:55:35):
You guys, they're like several weeks in a deliberation here.
This is crazy. The jurors sat stonefaced as the judge
told them, I'd like you to keep deliberating, noting I'm
not asking any of you to violate your conscience or
abandon your best judgment. I'm pretty sure at this point

(01:55:56):
that's exactly what is happening. After how many weeks is this?
They went back April fifteenth, it's now May eighth.

Speaker 2 (01:56:05):
I think the judge is saying, I do not want
to mistrial on my record.

Speaker 1 (01:56:09):
To fucking bad bro. Maybe Joan should have done a
better job.

Speaker 2 (01:56:13):
I don't know happened. He better not have left shirt
and put my car better not better, not now, guys.
Just a few hours later, the judge did declare a misstroll.
The votes weren't close, okay, as there was only one

(01:56:36):
not guilty holdout.

Speaker 1 (01:56:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:56:39):
Prosecutor Prize Joan Alusi or Bone immediately asked for a
court date to set a new trial, and an appearance
was set for June tenth.

Speaker 1 (01:56:50):
Of course, she fucking did now. Aton's dad, Stan Pates,
was left angry by the deadlock and said his and
extended family were convinced of Hernandez's guilt. All right. Aton
was a beautiful, outgoing, friendly curious little kid. He said,

(01:57:13):
he would have made a great adult. That's what got
him killed, because he was willing to go with this
asshole down the stairs. I mean, I don't disagree with
him on all of that. I just think it's the
wrong asshole. Aton is all of those things.

Speaker 2 (01:57:34):
I agree, and I think Ayton unfortunately had I a
lot of those kind of asshole people in his near circle.

Speaker 1 (01:57:44):
I mean, yeah, what he's gonna go off with some
fucking bodega worker that he barely knows instead of his
babysitter's boyfriend or the handyman of the building that he
sees every day, which one of these is more likely.
Who gave me a dollar? Well, he was changing close
the ninth Uh huh.

Speaker 2 (01:58:02):
A's I said, there's yeah, get nowt He also said
the family of Aton Paids has waited thirty six years
for a resolution as to what happened to our sweet
little boy back in nineteen seventy nine. We now have
had about three months of trial testimony in jury deliberations.

(01:58:23):
Let me make it very clear that we are frustrated
and very disappointed that the jury has been unable to
come to a decision. Our long ordeal is not over.

Speaker 1 (01:58:37):
I'm getting he's not wrong, but you know, you mind
this stay having a week fucking I mean it wasn't
super weak though they did, but whatever. Anyway, He also added,
we have analyzed all the testimony, debated the merits of
various witnesses, and come to the conclusion that Pedro Hernandez's

(01:58:59):
is guilty of crimes to which he confessed. Beyond any
reasonable doubt. Pedro Hernandez kidnapped and killed my son. He
is a guilty man who had been conscious stricken due
to his deeds and haunted by demons since that day.
I just want to just want to point out that

(01:59:20):
the Pizzas believed and trusted in Graboa and Jose being
the suspect so much they filed a twelve point four
million dollar lawsuit. But you want to believe these fucking
snake oil salesmen prosecutors who are doing it for their
name instead of in your son, Sir.

Speaker 2 (01:59:40):
What I have to say, after working with and talking
with families on midday missing that I absolutely can understand
why they believe that they want answer you could probably

(02:00:02):
they're kind of like if you've ever heard this saying,
oh that salesman is so good he could sell ice
to an Eskimo disappearent.

Speaker 1 (02:00:12):
These families just want answers. Oh yeah, great, it's very powerful.
You just want it to be over. And I have
nothing wrong with the pads. I'm just clarifying for the audience. Yeah,
just reminders of what just reminders you know, ten years ago,
not even that. Yeah, in the story. Yes.

Speaker 2 (02:00:33):
After the mistrial, many of the jurors broke their silence
on what it was like spending eighteen days deliberating. They
spoke of having long debates regarding whether someone could be
convicted on their confession alone, whether Jose Ramos was the
more likely killer, whether Pedro Hernandez was severely mentally ill

(02:00:59):
and his confession bogus, and whether the bodega had been
properly searched.

Speaker 1 (02:01:09):
Yes, Adam Sarah, I think that's a sorry Sarah's time.
So was the loan juror who refused to budge and
voted for an acquittal. Come in you, sir. He talked
about Aton's book back and the search of the bodega.
No police account introduced at trial, in testimony or through

(02:01:31):
department records unequivocally stated that the Bodega basement had been searched.
That's a whole frickin' thing. There were things, but there's
awesome not things, and that led to some pretty spicy
debates in the jury room. Here we do have an
interview clip from Adam after the verdict was canceled.

Speaker 5 (02:01:56):
Ultimately, I couldn't find enough evidence that wasn't circumstantial to convict.
I couldn't get there. For me, his confession was very bizarre.
No matter how many times it happened, it got more
and more bizarre. And I feel that the initial confession,
there were lots of issues surrounding custody, surrounding Miranda rights,

(02:02:18):
surrounding the fact that it wasn't video for six or
seven hours, and I felt I felt like mental health
issues were a huge part of this case.

Speaker 1 (02:02:32):
Thank you, Adam. And you know what, Adam, I agree.
I agree with you. I'm standing standing strong for eighteen days.
I mean, that's that's tough. You know, you really do
have to believe that to stand there when you have
several other people that are probably really fucking money.

Speaker 2 (02:02:50):
You imagine I believe he got in that jury room.

Speaker 1 (02:02:55):
Oh well, you're about some of it, don't you. Worry.

Speaker 2 (02:02:57):
I know, but I'm like, can you just imagine.

Speaker 1 (02:03:01):
Exactly exactly now, about seven of the jurors who thought
Pedro was guilty met with prosecutor Joan A. Losey Orbin
and her team to share insights from the trial.

Speaker 2 (02:03:18):
Now, obviously eleven of us voted to convict, and we
felt strongly about Pedro's guilt. We know what's likely this
is going to be retried, so we want to do
our best to help the prosecution fine tune the testimony
as they go into the next trial, said Chris Giliberte.

Speaker 1 (02:03:41):
Okay, Chris, I mean, he's entitled to his opinion, but
I think he's wrong. Now another juror, Jennifer O'Connor, remember
that name. So the former jurors did most of the talking.
We just had a lot of information and we just

(02:04:02):
let it flow. We just talked about all the different
elements of the crime and how we got past resemble doubt.
And just by the way, I just want to clarify,
this is a very normal thing after a trial, no
matter the outcome, both sides do try to talk to
jurors afterwards, whether even if verdict was found or not.

(02:04:22):
So this part isn't weird.

Speaker 2 (02:04:24):
No, it's not because I like it, because I look
at it this way, like an emergency management. We look
how could we have done better? How can we improve?

Speaker 1 (02:04:36):
Totally normal?

Speaker 2 (02:04:37):
That is all they are doing. There is nothing shady
or weird about that.

Speaker 1 (02:04:42):
Yeah, no, that's totally normal.

Speaker 2 (02:04:45):
Now, several of these jurors were not happy about the
media attention that Adam Cyros was getting, seeing the amount
of pressed he's giving. It makes us very sad because
the emphasis on this should be on Aton and justice
for Aton's family, and it shouldn't be about one rogue.

(02:05:08):
Juror O'Connor said, so he's considered rogue because he didn't
go their way as why.

Speaker 1 (02:05:19):
He didn't have the same opinion as everybody else. There's
something wrong with that guy, right, and that's why we
have cures and a jury team. Or maybe Chris, you're
a level seven susceptible who just easily believes bullshit. But whatever, whatever, Chris, Sorry,

(02:05:40):
I don't like somebody.

Speaker 2 (02:05:41):
I don't want to make you feel bad.

Speaker 1 (02:05:42):
But it was Jennifer who said that, Oh it was
even better because she's the worst. She's the worst.

Speaker 2 (02:05:47):
Because you're getting ready to tell us about Chris, But no,
that was a general comment.

Speaker 1 (02:05:51):
You're right, Chris, name is under for the next one.

Speaker 8 (02:05:54):
Jennifer, she's a talk about want somebody wanting this, but
like good old Jennifer O'Connell's come on down.

Speaker 2 (02:06:05):
Like Cory True Crime trying to be a drama queen.

Speaker 1 (02:06:08):
Oh my god. Anyway, So Chris, I apologize Chris for
accusing you of that woman's statement earlier. But you were
saying now, Chris GILBERTI said, it's frustrating the pieces we've
been seeing about Adam Ciros being depicted as the Henry Fonda.
That's twelve anger angry men for those of you don't

(02:06:28):
know of our jury, when in fact, there's a strong
feeling among us that he kind of came into the
room with an agenda and the testimony didn't support that.
The theories that you need to dive into to discount
all the corroborating testimony are just so remote and wild.

(02:06:54):
None of us could go there.

Speaker 2 (02:06:58):
What So, what do you think Chris would say to
us if he was on with us right now? Because
we're on Adam's side, Chris. So Chris, if you want
to reach out to us, please, You were in the
jury room you were in court. Maybe we didn't get

(02:07:19):
anything because I think going into a dury room you
need to see evidence to back up improve the charge.
From everything we've read, the rabbit holes we've gone down,
I hadn't seen that ship.

Speaker 1 (02:07:37):
How dare you? How dare Adam?

Speaker 3 (02:07:40):
Thank you?

Speaker 2 (02:07:43):
You've said it in a few words instead of my ramblings. Guys,
they shouldn't shame this guy in my opinion, now Pedro.

Speaker 1 (02:07:54):
I wouldn't shame I wouldn't shame these jurors either if
they weren't assholes about it. But quite frankly, they were huge, huge,
huge assholes. Oh about Adam afterwards? Like they were very
vocal and they were rude, and they do some more
things that I very very much disagree with. So just
that's the only because I do always say, the jury's

(02:08:16):
verdict is is what it is like. You have to
respect that, and I do respect.

Speaker 2 (02:08:21):
I do respect. Huge shouldn't if you respect it, you
shouldn't fault. Everybody comes in with their own stuff, and
I love that.

Speaker 1 (02:08:35):
I'm going to just be a bitch here. A miss
put up.

Speaker 2 (02:08:41):
My email at the bottom because we wouldn't want him
to know her name. Is really amos. But we're just
going to go.

Speaker 1 (02:08:47):
With that now.

Speaker 2 (02:08:49):
Red Pedro's second trial began in October twenty sixteen. Now, guys,
we're not going to go over all of the testimony
and evidence because it's mostly the same. There's a few exceptions.

Speaker 1 (02:09:05):
Okay, very few, but they're there.

Speaker 2 (02:09:09):
One a new prosecutor joined the team, Joel Seedman. Okay,
I'm not going to tell.

Speaker 1 (02:09:17):
You what time my brain, what that ties. It's just
so I do.

Speaker 2 (02:09:23):
But seed Man, I just think of the doctors that
get in trouble for running fertility clinics and they impregnate
all of their patients with their seed because they're the
seed man. That is what I thought of.

Speaker 1 (02:09:41):
That's funny.

Speaker 2 (02:09:43):
Yeah, So.

Speaker 1 (02:09:46):
He had won a.

Speaker 2 (02:09:47):
Conviction against you light up My Life trust fun playboy
Nicholas Brooks for the murder of his swim suit designer
girlfriend in twenty thirteen.

Speaker 1 (02:09:59):
Shut the shut up, Capin, shut up?

Speaker 2 (02:10:05):
What is that?

Speaker 1 (02:10:06):
Luigi's Yes. Wow, And that's.

Speaker 2 (02:10:13):
A federal case and we can't stream it.

Speaker 1 (02:10:17):
Oh yeah, no, no, no, no, no, interesting cabin I didn't
know that. Wow.

Speaker 2 (02:10:22):
You know what I will see though, if anybody has
airline miles and they want to shut up me. What
don't covered Harvey?

Speaker 7 (02:10:38):
Well?

Speaker 2 (02:10:38):
I mean did she do him? Or was she his attorney?

Speaker 1 (02:10:43):
I mean a broken clock is right twice a day.
So whatever I'm gonna say.

Speaker 2 (02:10:48):
If anybody has free airline points, I have some free
hotel points, I'm willing to go to New York.

Speaker 1 (02:10:55):
Is the case that got overturned and got a whole
new trial out of it? Oh? I think it was okay,
see find out so I can give her a thumb.

Speaker 2 (02:11:11):
Good job, Joan, good job, Joan, Joan. It might be
time to change careers. We all keep clicking the same button,
I know now. The second thing was that the judge
band mentioning that there was a previous trial. That's not uncommon, guys.

(02:11:35):
No what she left to run for office?

Speaker 1 (02:11:41):
Which time the time we're about to talk about? Or
should go and do it again? Because of course she did.
Of course she probably did talk about a cloud chaser
Joan a lose oh aorbon or whatever your name?

Speaker 2 (02:11:54):
Can we just call her Joan lose Obo.

Speaker 1 (02:11:59):
Lose Obo since the elections. Yes, I don't like.

Speaker 2 (02:12:07):
Her, and I've just opened Joel got a better tie
in a fashion helper because that tie is bad. And
I try not to judge people's appearance, but that tie
is just bad. His wife should not have let him
out of that. Joan, Oh, Jude, Joan email para. You

(02:12:29):
know what? All right, Chris, come on, Joan, come on,
we will do a joint show.

Speaker 1 (02:12:35):
Let's go on, listen. I have no problem being proven wrong,
Like I really don't, Okay.

Speaker 2 (02:12:41):
Amy, what I've gathered sitting with their email addresses, and
I will reach out to them directly and buy the show.

Speaker 1 (02:12:49):
Oh my god. Anyway, back to the second trial. So three,
all right, there's the first two things that were different.
The third thing that was different, and this is where
I really start to have some problems, is that several
members of the first jury regularly attended the second trial. Specifically,

(02:13:15):
there were two jurors who were always seated close to
or next to stand pets. I wonder who one of
those people are. Don't worry, we'll find out. At least
one of them took notes and would share them with
the prosecution when the jury was out of the room.

(02:13:35):
They actually told another spectator that she made notes when
it appeared that the second jury was confused and offered
suggestions on what needed to be made clearer. By the way,
in case you're wondering, neither one of those people have
a lot of great Okay, just by the way, before

(02:13:58):
you go, button, Karen read one of the old noe.

Speaker 2 (02:14:01):
Alright, a law degree in Karen Reid, there was a
law degree involved.

Speaker 1 (02:14:07):
I think Jennifer decorates shit or whatever.

Speaker 3 (02:14:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:14:11):
Anyway, so we're gonna fast forward, guys to about four
months later, in February twenty seventeen, when the new jury
began their deliberations. Okay, on the second day, after having
sent two prior notes, the jury sent a third note
to the trial court, which reads s follows.

Speaker 1 (02:14:34):
Sorry, it takes me longer to chew a shrimp than I.

Speaker 2 (02:14:36):
Thought to that shrimp.

Speaker 1 (02:14:43):
All Right, we the jury requests that the judge explained
to us whether, if we find the confession at CCPO
before the miranda writes was nonvoluntary, we must just regard
the to later videotaped confessions at CCPO and the DA's office,

(02:15:07):
the confessions to Rosemary and Becky Hernandez, and the confessions
to the various doctors. So let me just summ it
up before you real quick. They're saying, if we find
that the very first time he talks to the police,
his rights were violated and it was not voluntary. Do
we then carry that over to every every other confession

(02:15:30):
he has. Okay, that's that's the question. Great question, great question,
fantastic question. I will say that.

Speaker 2 (02:15:37):
Great question. Now, the judge asked each party's position. The
state said that the appropriate answer was no. The defense
considered that answer to be both misleading because it failed
to give the jury guidance on the rules governing unmarandized confessions,

(02:16:01):
and legally incorrect because there was no question that Pedro's
post warning confession at the CCPO was improperly obtained, as
it occurred within moments of the involuntary unwarned confession. That's

(02:16:23):
a big deal, guys, that's a very very big that's
a big deal.

Speaker 1 (02:16:26):
Sorry, it's one of the biggest deals actually that you
could you could have. Now, the defense urged the court
to at the very least instruct the jury that it's
up to them. They don't have to disregard them, but
can if they choose to. Ultimately, the judge, however, read

(02:16:47):
the jury back its question and then said the answer
is no. That's it. That's all.

Speaker 2 (02:16:54):
He said, No, I wonder if the judge and bever friends.

Speaker 1 (02:17:03):
Just the thought.

Speaker 2 (02:17:05):
But anyway, following the courts, I should say the judge,
but that's the court's response. The jury continued to deliberate
for another seven days. On the worst day in my opinion,
February fourteenth, twenty seventeen, which is a day for love,

(02:17:27):
the jury acquitted Pedro Hernandez of intentional murder in the
second degree, but found him guilty of felony murder in
kidnapping in the first degree.

Speaker 1 (02:17:42):
Rights so guilty, yes, but we'll get to that. You
can finish the last part.

Speaker 2 (02:17:49):
Yeah. At the sentencing hearing, Stan Pets addressed Pedro Hernandez.

Speaker 1 (02:17:56):
Before we get into to that, though, I will say this,
the fact that the jury deliverted as long as they did,
they came back with notes. They actually acquitted him of
of second degree murder. Okay, that means that case was
not as solid as right. So like, could the judge

(02:18:17):
or could the judge's response to the jurors have completely
changed their verdict. We'll find out. We'll find out. To say, now,
Stan addresses Pagro, Now, I know what the face of
evil looks like. After all, these years, we finally know

(02:18:38):
what dark secret you kept locked in your heart. You
took our precious child and threw him in the garbage.
I will never forgive you. The god you pray to
will never forgive you. You are the monster in your nightmares,
and will join your father in hell. Okay, I mean.

Speaker 2 (02:19:08):
I think whatever Aton's Mohammed dad wants to say that
is well within. I mean, I have never walked a
minute in their.

Speaker 1 (02:19:20):
Shoes for thirty seven years.

Speaker 2 (02:19:23):
Yeah, I Pedro Hernandez was sentenced to concurrent terms of
twenty five to life in prison.

Speaker 1 (02:19:32):
Now.

Speaker 2 (02:19:33):
After the verdict, jurors spoke out and were very passionate
in their belief that Pedro was in fact guilty. Several
of them even ended up forging relationships with the Pates
and the prosecution.

Speaker 1 (02:19:50):
Team that day outside of the courthouse. Previous trial jur
Jennifer O'Connor, who talked about embraced Michael Castillon, a juror
for the from the second trial. Oh what, Jennifer, that's
the weird. Why would you do that at Jennifer. When

(02:20:14):
asked by Newsweek how the two knew each other, Castilian
said that he had been told by a court officer
that one or more jurors from the first trial were
in attendance and sometimes sat with Stan Pates. He didn't

(02:20:36):
say when he was told that or if anyone else
had heard, and he tried to take that comment back,
asking the reporter not once, but twice to not report
his comment. Oh, Jennifer, I meant to just bite my

(02:20:56):
tongue now.

Speaker 2 (02:20:58):
Michael Castillon isn't in interesting jurer because guys, here's a
law degree from Duke University.

Speaker 4 (02:21:06):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (02:21:08):
He was also one of several jurors who stayed in
the courtroom after the verdict to talk with the reporters.
He spoke at length about the deliberations and the evidence
they weighed, calling them thoughtful and logical. He described the
evidence presented by fish Vein as the equivalent of throwing
spaghetti against the wall.

Speaker 1 (02:21:32):
I'm curious. I'm just curious. Who does I don't know this,
but did did Michael Castilion ever get a job with
the New York City District Attorney's Office. I'm just wondering.
I'm just wondering if, like.

Speaker 2 (02:21:48):
I, whatever happens, we have some people who can find
that out for us. I can just see them in
my brain going right. But the fact that the judge
said nobody could know there was a previous trial, and
yet somehow he knew that Jennifer Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:22:10):
Okay, right, they embraced. Would you get let a brandam
stranger hug you. No, especially in New York, they don't
do that shit. I mean, I haven't been there, but
I've heard and it's not a knock to New Yorkers.
I just I just hear. That's just how it is,
you know, like, no, you ain't doing that now. When
Fishbain got word of this, he said he would soon

(02:22:34):
ask the judge to order a hearing into what he
called the extent of the jury contamination, and he sent
out his investigators to speak with all the jurors. Guess
what they didn't like that. One of the jurors who
did speak with Pro Publica said that, to their knowledge,
none of the jurors were aware of the jurors from

(02:22:55):
the first trial in the courtroom. That doesn't mean anything, now,
it doesn't. That could have just been like not paying
attention at all, or they were in the.

Speaker 2 (02:23:06):
Gospel called out, tried to call back his comment. I'm
going to just know right, so Fisherman said, the initial
vote taken by the second jury broke down almost evenly,
which is crazy guilty and five not guilty. Guys, that's huge.

Speaker 1 (02:23:30):
That is very huge.

Speaker 2 (02:23:32):
That's huge if they got a conviction, if they were
had a mistrial, that would be like, okay, that makes sense,
but yeah, he said. His concern is that the presence
of the former jurors, particularly their support and accompaniment of
stan pet might have influenced their verdict and the highly

(02:23:55):
emotional case.

Speaker 1 (02:23:57):
You think, yeah, He said.

Speaker 2 (02:24:01):
He was especially concerned because Castillon was outspoken regarding the
guilty verdict at the press conference.

Speaker 1 (02:24:10):
I am sorry, but Castilian has so much to gain
from this. Oh, he's absolutely much. Again, I don't think
I've ever thought that about a juror before, but like, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (02:24:23):
Hello.

Speaker 1 (02:24:27):
Now, the judge denied fish Vein's motion to dismiss the
guilty verdict over jury contamination. The motion also claimed an
alternate juror in the case had said he too became
aware of the earlier jurors during the course of the
second trial, so that not just one, more than one

(02:24:49):
person has said that now. Defense investigator Joe O'Brien reached
an alternate who said he knew about the first jury
well before deliberations.

Speaker 2 (02:25:03):
How did he know? Did they investigate that? Did they
look into that?

Speaker 1 (02:25:08):
Oh, look at the construction litigation. Oh wait, isn't there
a group of people in New York for in New
York with constraints. Isn't there like a group of people
that are notoriously known? Oh, my gosh, is that.

Speaker 2 (02:25:25):
I can't you know, my brain doesn't work so well
these days. We're gonna have to think about it.

Speaker 1 (02:25:31):
We'll get back to that now.

Speaker 2 (02:25:34):
He could not recall if it was a general announcement
to the jury, if it was just a comment passed
between the two of them, But he assured me that
other jurors knew this as well. The investigator didn't reach
anyone who deliberated in the case. And guys, I'm going

(02:25:54):
to tell you, I'm not an attorney, but this is
sus as shit.

Speaker 1 (02:26:02):
Yeah, I agree.

Speaker 2 (02:26:03):
After serving on a jury earlier this year, I think
hevin the jurors from the first trial did influence And
the fact that you have more than one who has
said they knew yeah about the first trial, that is
a mistrial in my.

Speaker 1 (02:26:21):
Books, And like I get it, they're alternates, so they
didn't really go into deliberation. But that should be enough.
That should be enough a riad because that information should
not have.

Speaker 2 (02:26:31):
Been known until after the trial.

Speaker 1 (02:26:35):
Yeah, but it seems like Jennifer didn't really keep a
low profile, did it. No, she didn't anyway, So we're
almost wrapped up, guys, I promise. Okay. So arguments were
held on April twenty fourth, twenty twenty five, that's right,
this year, you guys, This year in front of the

(02:26:57):
Second Circuit State of Appeals Court asking that Pedro Hernandez
should get a new trial. Pedro's appellate attorneys argued that
an instruction given by the court in response to a
jury question was improperly ignored. They believe that this clearly

(02:27:18):
established a Supreme Court precedent and prejudice the verdict. Well,
I told you all this was going to be coming
back into real time and be relevant.

Speaker 2 (02:27:29):
Yeah. Now, the president they were referring to was a
case decision in two thousand and four which held unconstitutional
the law enforcement tacted of intentionally obtaining a confession without
giving miranda warnings, then administering the warnings, and finally asking

(02:27:52):
the suspect to repeat the confession. It is asked backwards.

Speaker 1 (02:27:59):
In two thousand, an in four hag backwards was in
twenty twelve. You guys okay now? A reverse decision was
ordered by the appellate court on July twenty first, twenty
twenty five, meaning that now, right now, sixty four year

(02:28:22):
old Pedro Hernandez would get a new trial or even
be released. They wrote, we concluded that the state trial
court contradicted clearly established federal law, and this error was
not harmless because they knew better. They all knew better.

(02:28:47):
Everybody knew better. Shame on all of them now.

Speaker 2 (02:28:53):
In an email to Pro publica former DA Syvance Junior
said it was exceptionally chewing, giving the passage of time,
but also very strong, and that the recent decision came
is a surprise to him.

Speaker 1 (02:29:10):
Oh God, whatever, Sorry, should have been no surprise, I'm
like dude. Clearly, the jury heard substantial expert testimony from
both the prosecution and the defense to socide again by
the advance, by the way, and considered both and the

(02:29:32):
legal instructions by the court during deliberations and before the verdict,
he said, adding that he continues to believe Hernandez is guilty.
Remember that last bullet point and that study with doctor earlier.
He continues to believe that Hernandez is guilty and that

(02:29:54):
his thoughts are with the Pets family and with Aton,
are they because you're the one who opened this wound
sirt for your campaign? You you, sir?

Speaker 2 (02:30:09):
Yeah, I will give him this small credit. I think
he set out initially, I don't wanting to do the
right thing. Maybe not, he just wanted to win votes.

Speaker 1 (02:30:23):
M h. Yeah, because all the other opponents of that race. Yeah,
they're asked by Pates as well, and some of them
were like, there's just not enough evidence, and that's like
the can't.

Speaker 2 (02:30:35):
I always try to find good Yeah, I'm sorry I can't.
So now Van's successor, Alvin Bragg, will have to decide
whether to retry Pedro Hernandez for the third time. In
a statement from Bragg's office said only we are reviewing

(02:30:57):
the decision as of today. The state has asked delay
sending this case back to trial court and instead are
debating about taking this to the US Supreme Court. Of
course they are Pedro Hernandez. Oawyer said they would oppose
prosecutors requests to put this case on the hold. Why

(02:31:19):
they contemplate an appeal because that means Pedro stays behind bars.

Speaker 1 (02:31:25):
Yep, yep ye, and a bunch of people want to
ruin a man's life for their own fucking egos. Because well,
we're about to get into closing arguments. But just to
be known, as Kaptain said here, every single da before
Vance said there wasn't enough, we don't have enough evidence,

(02:31:46):
and then then Vance went after that French guy and
made to be look like a fucking idiot and asshole.
So let's try to solve this other high profile case.
Oh what this this person just fell into to our lap.
Oh my god, I'm going to be a hero after
I just made a fucking fool of myself to the world. Yeah,

(02:32:07):
who has the most to gain from this? Ask yourself
that that's why this case makes me so freaking angry.
But I'll do my closing thoughts. Man, I got way
more worked out tonight than I thought I was going
to expected it.

Speaker 2 (02:32:30):
I have done well. And my tongue actually is like
got little blood spots because I've tried to bite it
because I am Then I'll save it for my closing thoughts.

Speaker 1 (02:32:41):
You give a shores all right now? I didn't really
know much about this case at all at all until
I saw Pedro was getting a new trial a few
months ago in July. I saw that the day it happened,
Terry was about to have surgery, and I was like, well,
we're gonna have to wait till she's back to cover

(02:33:01):
this one, because you know, it's one of the biggest
missing person's cases ever, and like that's your thing. And
then I was like, oh, this is very interesting. I
don't really know anything about this, and the more I
looked into it, the more I found myself getting angrier
and angrier, like all of the people involved that God

(02:33:26):
us to this point should be ashamed and they should
be shamed for what they have done. Now. I know
many people are going to disagree with me many things,
and that's fine. We're all entitled to our opinion. But
I very much believe in justice and I want nothing

(02:33:48):
more than justice for Aton and his family. And it
is my opinion that there was no justice done here,
and I don't believe there ever will be. I do
think that Pedro is factually innocent. I do not think

(02:34:09):
he had anything to do with this. You had two
known child predators that interacted with Aton regularly. Knowing what
we know now in twenty twenty five, we should know
better right now, Nothing Nothing was found on any of

(02:34:31):
Pedro's devices about Kittie's stuff. Think about that, Knowing what
we know, you're telling me a fifty year old man
who apparently is a child predator killer, according to Joan,
doesn't have shit, because believe you me, bet your ass,
if there was, the prosecution would have been yelling from

(02:34:55):
the rooftop about it. That's how you know it doesn't exist,
all right, In my experience of cases and whatnot, you
don't just stop being a child predator and you don't
just start being one and you just don't like it,
just you know, just.

Speaker 2 (02:35:12):
Wake up one day and say, oh, by the way.

Speaker 1 (02:35:14):
Oh yeah, no, no, that's not how it works. And
I believe that this was all politically motivated, every single
ounce of it, because the investigation from nineteen seventy nine
to twenty ten when it was reopened by Vance, every
single prosecutor so they didn't have the evidence they needed

(02:35:36):
to take it to trial, you know why, because it
would be ethically and immral to do that. But not
for Vance, not for the Assistant DA that did his interviews,
not for Joan. No, this is all about politics, and

(02:35:56):
we didn't even go into I don't think or was
it the part two where Joan ran for office afterwards
and she lost. She came back get a little bit,
but not much, you guys. As soon as that first
trial was over, she left and ran on this trial
as part of her campaign.

Speaker 2 (02:36:16):
This was a stepping stone for her career, it.

Speaker 1 (02:36:20):
Was, and for what mentally and a mentally ill man
who's borderline mentally handicapped, that's what you want to put
your high heels on while you go up climbing the
stage for your fucking political bullshit. It's unbelievable, it's disgusting.

(02:36:41):
And the problem with New York is that we don't
get to see trials. There's no cameras in New York,
all right, no cameras in state court, not in their
federal court.

Speaker 2 (02:36:53):
We know why, and we can't know why they don't
want to do interviews. Why would they want to do trials?

Speaker 1 (02:37:01):
Exactly exactly, this was zealous prosecution, just like fucking Karen Read.
It's the same thing to make the careers of everyone
involved in I call bullshit. That is not just people,
innocent people. This is not our.

Speaker 2 (02:37:20):
Becoming victims along with the other victims. It's just yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:37:26):
Now I will be covering this stream trial. Oh be
your ass.

Speaker 2 (02:37:32):
I am.

Speaker 1 (02:37:33):
I'm gonna be covering. It won't be televised, but I
will put together all updates every single freaking day to
find out what is going on in that courtroom. When
it does. I don't know when it's going to be,
We don't know, but I'm not gonna let these assholes
just hide in their shadows where there's no no cameras

(02:37:53):
and hoping that nobody's paying attention. Because we have to
pay attention to this. We absolutely they have to. And
maybe I'll be wrong. I don't know, maybe I won't be,
but I think everyone's eyes need to be on this
trial when it does happen. If if he is factually innocent,
then it is up to us as citizens to ask

(02:38:15):
the hard questions, shine a spotlight on this case, make
the people who earn their money from us answer some
fucking questions. And as I said, I want justin for Aton,
but I don't want justice just for justice sake. I'm
not that kind of person.

Speaker 2 (02:38:33):
I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 (02:38:34):
Justice to me isn't justice if it's factual, exactly exactly,
it's not.

Speaker 2 (02:38:44):
Well, I better tell you I hate every fucking thing
about this case because Aton. The only way I feel
he and his family are going to get justice is
if his body is found and there's DNA. I don't

(02:39:09):
because confessions can't be believed because the pedophile who confessed,
who had direct access to Aton, wasn't believed to be
a confession. And then a mentally challenged person's confession is
taken as the act of God to some degree. So

(02:39:36):
I personally also have a huge problem with the judge.
I believe the judge should have given more weight to
the concerns raised about the you know from the jury.
I mean, especially the fact that the jurors from the
first trial were present at the second is known for me, but.

Speaker 1 (02:39:58):
They weren't allowed to mention the first trial exactly girls
could sit.

Speaker 2 (02:40:02):
There, but yet then they also knew.

Speaker 1 (02:40:07):
Girl.

Speaker 2 (02:40:08):
I mean, I just.

Speaker 1 (02:40:11):
That to me.

Speaker 2 (02:40:13):
Should have been carefully considered by the judge. Okay, but
I am also pissed off about the way investigators the
DA Office went after a mentally handicapped person to get

(02:40:36):
an easy win. Yep, I feel it is once again
another slash on our system. Now, if I would have
seen or heard evidence from all of the documents we
went through the court stuff saying there was true evidence,

(02:41:00):
his confession was total bullshit. None of it could be
proven legitimate. How you can be convicted with no evidence
but your words. I could tell you I killed a man.

Speaker 1 (02:41:19):
Yesterday, doesn't mean it happens, doesn't.

Speaker 2 (02:41:24):
Mean it fucking happened. It maybe happened in my mind exactly.
There's no evidence, Hi, Kelly. I also have a problem
that he was questioned for more than twenty four hours straight.
That is whatever the dark side place is called. That
we take terrorists to guantanamobey, that's guantanamobey shit to me.

(02:41:50):
Twenty four hours questioning someone who's not under arrest. You
picked up and they voluntarily came with you. They're mentally challenged,
they don't understand. They can say, hey, could I get
a ride home?

Speaker 1 (02:42:05):
Mm hmm yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:42:08):
I let's also throw in the fact that he was
on pain medication.

Speaker 1 (02:42:13):
Okay, And this is a modern day like the nineteen
seventy nine cops, like, yeah, this piss up a lot
of shit, Okay, But in twenty twelve. All these mofos
knew better, all of them. I don't want to hear
their dumbas excuses.

Speaker 2 (02:42:30):
You know, it was nineteen seventy nine. I would be
so forgiving.

Speaker 1 (02:42:35):
I wouldn't be that forgiving.

Speaker 2 (02:42:36):
Well, okay, let me rephrase it. I'd be kind and
hope they learned their lesson. Okay, a lot of.

Speaker 1 (02:42:43):
A lot of good did. It's horrible to say that,
but if he didn't seem to learn a lesson, though there.

Speaker 2 (02:42:50):
A lesson is being learned. But considering they haven't jumped
up and said we are not prosecuting him again, tells
me they haven't learned their lesson, because why look at
Karen Reid after that first trial, they should have said done,

(02:43:11):
I'm walking away. They need to do the same damn
thing with Pedro.

Speaker 1 (02:43:15):
Yeah, yeah, So.

Speaker 2 (02:43:22):
I also have a problem with Ramos. You should have
been investigated more. And I bet you there is a
whole lot more that that man is done that we
don't know about.

Speaker 1 (02:43:34):
Oh for sure, for sure.

Speaker 2 (02:43:38):
But most importantly, at the end of the day, my
thoughts are with Aton's family because unfortunately they are being
re victimized over and over. Guys in nineteen seventy nine,
I was nine years old. I am fifty five fucking

(02:43:59):
years old this year. Think about that they are still
being traumatized to this day over this ship, and that
is injustice across the board.

Speaker 1 (02:44:15):
And I'm sure it is very difficult for them to
hear opinions like mine, and I'm sorry. The people should
have done a better job. I don't know. I don't know,
and I do hate this for them. I hate this
for them so freaking much.

Speaker 2 (02:44:35):
I do, and.

Speaker 1 (02:44:41):
It's very frustrating. It is, but news exactly. Don't let
this case go in the shadows when it starts happening.
Keep an eye out, put it on social media, get
people to put it out there, to cover this, because
that's also just as for Aton. Okay, if we unravel

(02:45:03):
this whole new trial and that's exactly what happened, justice okay,
But if it's not what happened, also justice for Pedro.
And it's hard concept to understand, but it's also justice
for Aton two.

Speaker 2 (02:45:18):
It is because I am sure Aton's family, if it
has proven that Pedro didn't do this, they would not
want someone else to be.

Speaker 1 (02:45:30):
Oh yeah, I don't believe that they would be a
victim I.

Speaker 2 (02:45:33):
Don't believe that. Unfortunately, I don't think until there is
scientific proof, they will ever get the answer.

Speaker 1 (02:45:42):
They doesn't, and I can't judge them for that. I
can't either bullshit that people have fed them over the years.

Speaker 2 (02:45:49):
I would look at this is just a small piece.
I look at the stories back in my twenties when
you're dating and stuff, the gas lighting, the lies you
just because you wanted to believe that your husband wasn't eating.
Of course, can you imagine what you would believe after
your child went missing? You could sell me lakefront property

(02:46:13):
in Arizona. As George Strait would say. Yeah, so I'm
glad you're covering this case when it comes to fruition,
and we will do a big wrap up.

Speaker 1 (02:46:26):
Mm hmmm, Yes, let's wrap up the show. We've been
here so long. I know we one you guys boys room,
I know we did more on y'all. It was gonna
be a long one. So with that, let's wrap up
the shows. Which apparently man's that we're gonna be having
somebody join us.

Speaker 2 (02:46:47):
Oh I just saw that, I know.

Speaker 1 (02:46:50):
Right, like I don't know, Oh my gosh, it's an a.

Speaker 2 (02:46:55):
Miss say it is amos, not a miss what it.

Speaker 3 (02:47:01):
Is, hiauty, I came on to make a little announcement
of my own. Uh, neither one of you know about this.

Speaker 2 (02:47:14):
So shit, I got fired.

Speaker 3 (02:47:17):
No, it's just you know, our special Lama is having
a birthday coming up, Oh.

Speaker 1 (02:47:27):
Jesus, twenty seventh.

Speaker 3 (02:47:32):
And I want to uh make sure where why isn't
it showing? And there it is? Oh?

Speaker 1 (02:47:42):
Oh wow.

Speaker 3 (02:47:43):
So I wanted to ask all of our viewers if
they had a special message to send into our lovely
Lama for her birthday set up, to email it to
me or send me a DM and discord and we'll
share your message with her as a surprise on a
future show.

Speaker 2 (02:48:03):
And if you have screenshots or pictures for anywhere, please
share those elbow feet.

Speaker 1 (02:48:11):
We are expecting photos. It's true. It will be my
fortieth birthday.

Speaker 2 (02:48:18):
It is. It is the Big Four. Oh it is
it is. And I believe we have a show the night.

Speaker 1 (02:48:27):
Before your birthday. That's true, it will Yeah, Joe, please
please some of your thoughts Shoe Gwinn didn't forget about you,
our girl, Gwenn. Well, that is so kind. Yep, love
for you.

Speaker 3 (02:48:48):
My first time ever nighttime appearance on True Crime li time.

Speaker 1 (02:48:52):
Just for our mama. Yeah, that's our lovely producer Amos. Yes,
all I wanted to come on and say, well, thank you.
I guess we'll see what birthday messages. Wait, I got
you last year.

Speaker 3 (02:49:09):
I'm gonna get you this.

Speaker 1 (02:49:10):
That's true, you did. You got me freaking Lisa Wilman
over in Wales. My gosh, there's some special stuff.

Speaker 3 (02:49:19):
I gotta get used to looking at the camera if
I'm going to be on the show.

Speaker 1 (02:49:22):
I know, right, speaking of I think you should stick
around while we wrap it up. Don't go anywhere, all right.
You're gonna get some practice because you're gonna need it,
all right. All right, well you guys before we go.
If you like what you heard tonight, be sure to
follow all of our socials and subscribe to our YouTube channel.

(02:49:44):
It's free, you guys, just a subscribe. It's great to
catch you nothing, but it does a tremendous amount for us.
Or if you're listening to our pod, please download and
give us a rating. All of that helps us tremendously
in getting our channel out there.

Speaker 2 (02:49:59):
So do that, guys. Next week I am be odd
excited And that's weird because next week on True crime
and wine time. We will be covering the Aaron Patterson
what is known is the Legata mushroom murders. Okay, guys, Yes,

(02:50:21):
it's going to be an adventure and I am so
freaking excited about it because I will be going mushroom
hunting in Finland in just a couple of weeks, which
I did last year in the year before, and I
am so excited to take my knowledge from what I
learned next week to make sure I don't pick the

(02:50:44):
wrong mushroom.

Speaker 1 (02:50:47):
Well, interestingly, this went to trial literally when Karen Reid
started and I was like, oh, I just heard of it.
I wanted to cover it, but obviously Karen Read just
over shadowed everything. Her trail didn't even wrap up until
after Read was over. It was a big deal. It's
a big deal, so do not yes, don't go eat

(02:51:09):
in mushrooms speech.

Speaker 2 (02:51:10):
I go with people who know. They pointed out, and
we took it back to the resort, the hotel, and
we gave it to the chef there to cook.

Speaker 1 (02:51:20):
Some her closings were a week they were a week long. Wow. Wow, Okay,
I can't wait. I don't I only know it's not
the United States opening statements and maybe like the first
day or two of trials. So I mean, I get
the gist, but all the details I don't know. So

(02:51:40):
I'm very excited to study up on this and bring
this next Thursday eight pm Eastern seven pm. Now, if
you need more of Terry, True Crime and I, you
can always find us doing something on our True Crime
and Wine Time YouTube channel. Just go YouTube dot com
slash True Crime Wine Time and that's where you'll find

(02:52:01):
all of our amazing shows. Now, you guys on our
other shows they've heard this, but our true crime fans
may not have. Mark your calendars for Monday, September fifteenth,
seven pm Eastern, six pm Central Rights. It is yes

(02:52:22):
for our new merch and membership launch party. We have
been working behind the scenes, these little little ladies, putting
together the cutest and affordable merch we could come up with.
With new releases coming at the end of each month,
I know I'm personally going to be ordering a bunch. Basically,
I made a bunch of stuff of like what would
I want to buy that.

Speaker 2 (02:52:42):
Six say Lama basically made stuff and she said, hey,
you're gonna want to order this. You're gonna want to
order that you want to order this. I'm like, okay,
I'm have to get a job because.

Speaker 1 (02:52:52):
There's a convenient.

Speaker 3 (02:52:55):
Birthdays.

Speaker 2 (02:52:57):
That's true, Naked, That's why they did it.

Speaker 1 (02:53:04):
But now not only are we doing merch, but as
our members, it's because of you guys and your support
that we're able to keep the lights on over here
and do what we love. We will be announcing our
six new membership tiers that I can promise you have
more perks than many of the other creators we've looked at,

(02:53:25):
and by being a member of our YouTube channel, you
will get your money's worth by investing in us. Do
we have merch with aj on it? Oh? Yeah, I
better have friendship bracelets.

Speaker 2 (02:53:39):
I to say, I Kelly, I am going to have
to talk to Lama because I just got an idea
of a merch we could possibly do with it.

Speaker 1 (02:53:50):
Oh oh I love that. Well. I was going to
do the next part, but Amos, would you like to
go Oh no, no, no, you're not ready for I'm
not ready that You're not ready for that. But Amos
is going to be making appearance because the only thing
we can't talk about and I'll allowed to talk about
because I can't guess spoilers about too Much is that

(02:54:11):
our new show TMI Too Much Internet will start airing
every Friday night Live at nine pm Eastern eight pm
Central on Friday September nineteenth for all members and then
the first Friday of every month for non members. You guys.
TMI is a show where our team of brave chronically

(02:54:32):
online hosts have curated the best weekly roundup of the strangest,
funniest and most confusing things that have happened on the Internet.
So it's going to be a good time. And well,
Amos may be joining us for the first show probably,
but you know who else is joining so far with
me and Terry elbow feet. That's right, elbow feet, the

(02:54:56):
man you guys hear about all the time to join us.

Speaker 2 (02:54:59):
For our me with his face, no elbows and no feet.

Speaker 1 (02:55:04):
Well, I make no promises, it is elbow feet.

Speaker 2 (02:55:08):
It is elbow feet. But what I love about it
every week you have different hosts. You're not gonna have
to just look at me a lama.

Speaker 1 (02:55:20):
I know, right, you guys got to get tired of me. Sometimes,
y'all got to get tired.

Speaker 2 (02:55:24):
Of us and our voices. There's going to be there's
gonna be a whole lot of TMI on TMI.

Speaker 1 (02:55:32):
Yes, that's very true, and that's.

Speaker 2 (02:55:34):
What we do need to have a disclaimer for when
Elbow feeds on that we are not responsible for anything
he says or anyone he of fence.

Speaker 1 (02:55:43):
That's true. Good thing is is we can like mute
him and went out. He just take him off and
we just don't see anything. He won't even know. Nobody
keep his secret. I'm just kidding. No, it's going to
you know, right, all right? Is there anything you want
to say say before we go or sign up? Terry?

Speaker 2 (02:56:03):
I do. I always want to thank all of you
guys for joining because guess what, even those that are
listening later, Without you guys, we would just be talking
to ourselves and then we would be answering ourselves and
then our other partner, our partners would have us committed.

Speaker 1 (02:56:26):
I mean, it would be a lot.

Speaker 2 (02:56:29):
So it's great and I have to tell you guys,
being back has been amazing, and I'm also very sad.
I'm gonna be going on a trip soon because I
just got back. I know, I am like trying to
figure out I may be taking a portable microphone with
me just in case I'm up in the middle of

(02:56:51):
the night to jump on and join. You should because
I don't know if I can go without.

Speaker 1 (02:56:57):
This group again. I mean, I need live videos of Finland, so.

Speaker 2 (02:57:01):
Josh, I could do my videos.

Speaker 1 (02:57:03):
Strap a GoPro to your head, okay and give us
that I'm not sure at the.

Speaker 2 (02:57:08):
Top of my head as well, do it, but yeah,
so I will stream from there. It's just so right
now in Finland it is six am.

Speaker 1 (02:57:18):
So see it's fine.

Speaker 2 (02:57:20):
So but it will always be there for the replay crew.
So I just want to say thank you guys, and
as always, please stay safe, watch out for bad people,
and enjoy your wine time because it helps us deal
with all of that shit in the world.

Speaker 1 (02:57:41):
Thank you all everyone for listening and supporting us. Until
next time, take care of your mind, take care of
each other, and never stop asking the hard questions or
calling people out the bullshit. Now he needs his own
sugar command. Yes, all right, guys. Now, as we always say,

(02:58:02):
I say, whatever we all do, we all know how
it goes by now go forth and be amazing all right,
bye guy m hm.

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S5 E25 - The Milk Carton That Changed America_ The Etan Kalil Patz Story Part 3

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}S5 E25 - The Milk Carton That Changed America_ The Etan Kalil Patz Story Part 3