S5 E27 - When a Firefighter Becomes an Arsonist_ The John “Pillow Pyro” Orr Story _ Part 1 - True Crime and Wine Time

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Hello, birthday princess.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
Hello, thank you, thank you everybody. I got a tiara
and a fortieth fabulous sash on.

Speaker 1 (00:24):
Since that's because you are stunning and it's your birthday week,
I just realized I should turn my ring off. I
do think you should wear a tiara daily. It looks
so good on you.

Speaker 2 (00:38):
I doo hi emo, shit him, I think so too.
I'm thinking since it says forty, I should just wear
it every day for the next year, like really good.

Speaker 1 (00:47):
I agree.

Speaker 2 (00:48):
My money's worth it. And it's really good quality too,
it is, I think. I mean it's sturdy.

Speaker 1 (00:52):
I have mine sets fifty five and fabulous and it's
the same thing on Amazon and it is really good quality.
I mean I even wore it in the pool.

Speaker 2 (01:02):
Oh wow, and it didn't change out. I told Albok
he had to be careful because he put it on.
And then I also got this really fancy wine glass
that well you can't see, but it says stuff about
forty and I was like, you are not allowed to
even be in the same room as this wineglass.

Speaker 1 (01:19):
Are you saying he's clumsy and he would break it?
Is that what I hear?

Speaker 2 (01:22):
Yes, yes, I have a bunch of stimless wine glasses
for a reason, and he still breaks those. So I
was like, you're not allowed.

Speaker 1 (01:29):
You're not You're getting out of a row one tonight too,
And looks like we have lady in gray motion to
scream here you've had a busy day.

Speaker 2 (01:39):
I have, Yes, I've been watching Court all day and
now we're here.

Speaker 1 (01:44):
Birthday week, so I should probably, you know, do the
thing and say hello everyone, welcome to another episode of
true crime in one time. I am tiery true crime.
In case you didn't know that and you just showed
up and you accidentally. Can you imagine if someone accidentally

(02:05):
landed on our channel, they see you and Tiara and
a sash, they see this crazy lady in old librarian glasses.

Speaker 2 (02:16):
I mean they they get what the This actually all
makes a lot of sense for us.

Speaker 1 (02:22):
So it does. So just stick around if you're new here,
because it will make sense. Okay, now we dive into
the most draw. I can never do this jaw dropping
true come stories and dark stories while sipping something smooth
to take the edge off. So guys, I'm gonna tell you,

(02:44):
pour a glass of something cold. Doesn't have to be wine,
but it helps. But it's gonna get hot tonight. Okay,
lock sleeping doors, people, lock your doors. Okay, I heard
someone in my nameghborhood someone broke into their house.

Speaker 2 (03:05):
No, thank you.

Speaker 1 (03:06):
Last week. It's a delivery person because their front door
was unlocked, so.

Speaker 2 (03:13):
The delivery person went inside a house.

Speaker 1 (03:16):
Uh huh, who does that? Exactly? If your door's locked,
they can't come in.

Speaker 2 (03:23):
But still I don't like that.

Speaker 1 (03:25):
Well I don't either. I think they knew it was
an old person living there. But let's uncork the truth
behind a very dark, dark story tonight.

Speaker 2 (03:37):
Yeah it's a two parter tonight, guys, by the way,
but we'll get to that in a second. Because I
want to thank you all already for watching tonight before
we begin. Do I need you all to do something
for me? I need you to hit that like button.
Let everybody knows that we're live, that we're celebrating Lama's birthday,
which we'll be celebrating tomorrow as well. We're just going
to celebrate it all the time every day because we're

(03:58):
probably not. If you haven't yet, please hit the subscribe
button to our channel and hit the notification bell so
you never miss when we go live or drop an
episode because we are always busy up in here. There's
something going on like every day, always pretty much. You
can also become a member of our channel, which gives
you all sorts of exclusive perks for as low as

(04:18):
ninety nine cents. All you gotta do is just click
the join button and pick whichever tier works best for you.
And if you're listening to this as a pod, please download,
leave a rating or a review, whatever the platform you're
listening to ask you to do. It helps our little
pod out so so much. And it's free. And share
on social media too, because sharing is caring. Sharing, Yes, Terry,

(04:44):
why don't you give them a little sneak peek of
what we're going to be talking about tonight.

Speaker 1 (04:49):
So, guys, tonight we are literally going into the inferno
of hell. I did not pick this case. No, you
did not, I did. I did in this case has
fascinated me for so long. But if you don't know,
we are covering the case of John Orr, who is

(05:13):
a firefighter, he was a fire captain or a fire chief,
I don't remember which right now, who was an arsonist
and it's the psychological which we're not going to get
into a lot tonight. But in part two I have
added probably a good two pages about the psychology behind it.

Speaker 2 (05:36):
Good because I want to really talk about that, not tonight,
but I am ready. I'm ready to talk about this, man.

Speaker 1 (05:43):
I mean, and that's one reason why I was very
interested in this case. Because of that.

Speaker 2 (05:50):
I'm fixing a sash. I've never worn one before.

Speaker 1 (05:54):
Probably a hint on the sash. If you get a
little bobby or not a Bobby pinac fafty pen, go
underneath your shirt and pin it right here on your
shoulder like this, then it'll stay while you're dancing.

Speaker 2 (06:10):
Oh so you don't pin it at the bottom.

Speaker 1 (06:12):
You pin it at the bottom. Two, but you do
it on the top where it slides off your shoulder
when you're dancing on the bar at Coyote, Ugly it
falls off.

Speaker 2 (06:19):
You know me so well, Terry, Hell damn Hello.

Speaker 1 (06:24):
Yeah, we're gonna have to work tomorrow night because there
might be some dancing involved.

Speaker 2 (06:29):
Dance what okay? All right, I mean, I'm going I'm
wearing this to court tomorrow when we show up for
couch court with Lama at nine five am tomorrow, I
will be a.

Speaker 1 (06:40):
Sporting that is Eastern time.

Speaker 2 (06:42):
People Eastern time, yes, earlier for you guys and my sash,
so I'll be wearing this all day because my birthday's
officially Saturday.

Speaker 1 (06:51):
Girl, I've got to teach you how to celebrate birthday
week and then we'll start next year with birthday month.
Birthday should be more than just one day when you're fabulous.

Speaker 2 (07:03):
I agree, I've earned it. At this point, I decided
I've earned a wear a tiera every day.

Speaker 1 (07:08):
And I mean, you are the big four to zero.

Speaker 2 (07:11):
Don't tell me what I can't do. That's from my
lasty friends. Well, uh, Terry, what are you? What are
you drinking tonight?

Speaker 1 (07:19):
So tonight I pulled out something I hadn't tried before.
I've got a couple of bottles of it. It is
a twenty eighteen Apollini couve Pino no War. They say
the toast tasting notes are red fruit and black cherry notes,
and they offer supple flavor and elegant tannin structure. Now

(07:42):
I'm trying to embrace fall by pulling out the reds,
even though it's still a hella hot in Texas. And
I have to say, very seldom do the tasting notes
nail it for me. They nailed it. I taste some
type of red fruit, but I definitely taste black cherry,

(08:04):
but I also get a little bit hint of spice.
So this palm fruits are there from Oregon.

Speaker 2 (08:13):
Strawberries, apple, these cherries rab ray berries, but those aren't
really red. We all know that. They just call them
red if they're not. Stop the games.

Speaker 1 (08:28):
But yeah, we need to do a show on the
Oregon and I'm going to reach out to a couple
of wineries there because I have really got two wineries.
This one. I'm loving that. I like an organ.

Speaker 2 (08:42):
Oh I hate to do this in public, but we're
going to have to fire Lady and Gray just to
let you know happening. She watched all of season six
of Loss without us fired.

Speaker 1 (08:55):
Okay, you know what, I believe that on the merch
order I have to do tonight. I think she wont something.
I think we may need to redraw that. Well, you
know I'm not going to do that. And the reason
why she owned up to it infests true. That's true
because I will tell y'all a little secret because I

(09:16):
know Double H isn't watching tonight. We do not we
have certain shows we don't watch without each other. Chicago
and Law and Order. I watch them without him and
just don't tell him, and that I act like I
don't know what's going on.

Speaker 2 (09:34):
I've done that too, We've all done that.

Speaker 1 (09:39):
Lady and Gray says she wants her slippers. So, Lady
and Gray, you are gonna have to take some feet photos.
When you get those, I'm going to take some better
pictures of me and my midday missing leggings. I have
decided since to travel to my company event, I need
to wear pink because our company colors. I'm gonna wear

(10:01):
my midday missing leggings.

Speaker 2 (10:03):
Oh.

Speaker 1 (10:03):
I love that, and I ordered me some new black
sketchers to go with them.

Speaker 2 (10:09):
Nice.

Speaker 1 (10:10):
So I need to know what you're drinking, because Sammy
Sunshine thinks you're drinking the elixir of youth.

Speaker 2 (10:20):
Well, that is a very kind of you, sam. Well,
since it's my birthday birthday weekend, it's my weeking birthday
week as Terry licks to call it, I'm not drinking wine.
I went for the hard stuff, so I got a
bottle of astral tequila, which is a brand that elbow

(10:41):
feet and I usually pick. It's pretty smooth. I don't
really do shots.

Speaker 1 (10:46):
Anymore.

Speaker 2 (10:47):
But if you do, you could pretty smooth. You cut
in the free. Yeah. Well, my used to be shot
of choice was patron chilled with lime lime juice.

Speaker 1 (11:00):
My we I used to like patron, but now lollow
is what a thing gets called lollow. It is smooth.
There's no like that. Like I could sit and just
drink it and drink it. You don't even need lime.

Speaker 2 (11:19):
Nice. I mean, I don't do that anymore, but you're close.

Speaker 1 (11:24):
Your mine still fall off.

Speaker 2 (11:25):
And that's how I have my little lama. And then
I also have a Jose Quervo Tropical margarita mix. Although
if you thought he grabbed the mango on which is
my personal faith, but instead he grabbed a tropical, which
is it's all right, but whatever, I'll drink it. I
don't okay.

Speaker 1 (11:41):
When you said that, I thought you were telling me
that you mix tequila's. So now that it's the margarita mix,
I feel much better.

Speaker 2 (11:48):
Oh well, I mean it's Hose Quervo, so there is
tequila in it as well.

Speaker 1 (11:52):
And then you add at this is going to be
fun night.

Speaker 2 (11:56):
Of course, how else does one drink margarite? Always add
more to guila?

Speaker 1 (12:03):
So dote I'll tell you that's a strip for you.
I use vodka in my margaritas because then my clothes
stay on.

Speaker 2 (12:14):
Well, that's too bad for age age.

Speaker 1 (12:16):
I mean, if it's just me and double H, I do.
But like if I go out with the.

Speaker 2 (12:19):
Girls you, Oh well, I'm not making any promises for
our listeners tonight.

Speaker 1 (12:26):
That's not happening. I got Okay, keep your clothes, it's
all I'm asking.

Speaker 2 (12:30):
I mean, I got a sash too. Anyway, you know
what with that, Let's get into the story of John
or before we go places we don't need to go tonight,
shall we? Oh?

Speaker 1 (12:44):
Boy, you are right, Sammy. It is the pregame party
before the party party.

Speaker 2 (12:49):
That's right, all right.

Speaker 1 (12:53):
His nose is so red. It's a black and white picture.
But look, you can just tell it's red.

Speaker 2 (12:59):
I guess, so, yeah, that's true. That's true. Maybe it's sunburnt,
I know, all right. So let's talk about John Leonard Orbs.
He seemed on the surface like an ordinary family man,
don't they all, don't they all? He was born in
nineteen forty nine and grew up in Los Angeles, later

(13:20):
serving in the United States Air Force. After his service,
he dreamed of becoming a police officer, applying to the LAPD,
but after failing the entrance exam, he settled for other work,
eventually taking a job as a security guard in a
department store where he had a knack for catching shoplifters. Now,

(13:43):
I'm just going to start off right away. How hard
could an entrance exam be in the seventies? I mean,
even now they're not that difficult and we have a
much higher standard. How were they so difficult in the seventies.

Speaker 1 (14:00):
Well, I kind of wonder did they have some type
of psychological exam as part of the entrance exam? But
then again, I think maybe back then they didn't.

Speaker 2 (14:09):
Yeah, but I don't know, I don't know how. I
don't know how, but he did so that that you.

Speaker 1 (14:17):
Somebody can find a copy of the entrance exam from
the seventies and we could take it and see if
we would pass. Yes, Yes, she's so community. That is
so great at finding things, and Jim talking to you
because if you could find that, because would that not
be a fun thing to do next week for part two?

Speaker 2 (14:39):
Yeah, I'm curious. I don't know what interest exams and tails.
I just feel like from the seventies, it probably was
not as as not as robust. No, no, it's not
their own shade. It just was the time, right, you
know so?

Speaker 1 (14:59):
But guys, he he was still determined to make a
career in public service. So John Orr entered the Glendale
Fire Academy in nineteen seventy four. I'm guessing their entrance
exam was a little easier, so he did graduate as
a firefighter.

Speaker 2 (15:16):
What it's crazy to me, I feel like firefighters like.

Speaker 1 (15:20):
That would they don't have as many laws to learn
as police officers.

Speaker 2 (15:26):
I guess so.

Speaker 1 (15:28):
But he graduated as a firefighter and soon proved himself
capable and ambitious. Now, by the early nineteen eighties, he
had built a reputation as an aggressive enforcer of fire prevention,
often going after homeowners who ignored weed abatement. Now those assholes,

(15:49):
I mean, look at him there. I would say, normally
that would irritate me. But considering it's California, you have
to freaking do that people, you have to so fair pass.

Speaker 2 (16:04):
California.

Speaker 1 (16:05):
So okay, But he was passed out there, stubborn, and
he had the drive of someone who still wanted to
be a cop.

Speaker 2 (16:12):
Hm. Right, seems a little power hungry, a little authoritative yearning,
if he will now to friends and neighbors, or appeared
to be a devoted husband and father. He lived with
his wife and their two children in Eagle Rock, which
was a suburb just northeast of Los Angeles. His colleagues

(16:35):
sometimes saw his family at department events, and on the
outside he played the part of the family man who
had worked hard to provide stability and a respectable career
for his wife and kids, which yes, that is more
than a respectable career, of course.

Speaker 1 (16:50):
And a lovely house, Essex say. In a lovely house.

Speaker 2 (16:54):
Yeah, I love that little privacy patio with the lattice
they got going on there.

Speaker 1 (17:00):
I think it's adorbs.

Speaker 2 (17:02):
I did too. Look at that old house car in
the driveway.

Speaker 1 (17:05):
What are Pepper Potts, Pepper Potts.

Speaker 2 (17:10):
Angie is like, Oh, Pepper Potts, Pepper, that's Marvel. Okay,
that's that's Tony Stark's wife and girlfriend, Pepper. But okay,
I thought we were we're going to be doing We're
going to be doing a Marvel marathon soon. I'm making
it happen in the discord on the courtyard. We're going

(17:30):
to start with Marvel. We're going to do it all, okay,
freaking love it, And I got a bone to pick
with bells, so I'm making it happy.

Speaker 1 (17:42):
Oh well, then this go on because we don't want
to pick any bones with bells tonight.

Speaker 2 (17:46):
That's true. But behind the domestic picture was a man
restless for recognition. Firefighting was not enough for some reason.
I mean, how why nobody hates firefighters, you know? But anyway,
Or craved the investigative side. He immersed himself in the

(18:06):
psychology of arsonists. Hmm, interesting, writing articles and studying cases
with a passion most colleagues didn't share. He spoke at
training seminars, trained new investigators, and enjoyed the spotlight when
people praised his ability to detect considerary devices. In nineteen

(18:27):
eighty one, when Glendale formed its first arson investigation unit, Or,
of course, was the standout candidate. Interesting.

Speaker 1 (18:38):
Interesting. One thing I did not include in our notes
is that no other firefighters wanted the roles. They wanted
to fight fires. So he truly was the perfect candidate.
Because gotta think he wanted to be a cop, couldn't
make it, so this was his way to be a

(18:59):
fire cop. But yeah, I had no other cops because
you didn't have your normal shift two days on, three
days off, those kind of things. You It was a
different schedule.

Speaker 2 (19:11):
Okay, all right, I mean that, you know, investigation's not
for everybody either.

Speaker 1 (19:16):
It's not, but it is for Severai. Sorry, okay, that's
a Chicago fire thing. Y'all have your marvel and lost stuff.
I can throw in my Severai every now and then.

Speaker 2 (19:26):
It's fine, I'll allow it, thank you.

Speaker 1 (19:29):
Now. It was a dream position. He finally had the
detective's badge he had always wanted, and oh my god,
that was crazy. And for wow, and for years it
seemed he was thriving. Okay, Glendale's arson's clearance rate rose

(19:50):
inn Or earned respect as a top fire investigator in California.

Speaker 2 (19:56):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (19:57):
So he was described as diligent, always willing to show
up at fire scenes even when he was off dude duty. Dude, dude.
The other thing about red wine, it hits me so
much faster.

Speaker 2 (20:11):
That it does that it does.

Speaker 1 (20:13):
In fact, I haven't even drunk a glass and I
all of a sudden am feeling it. Wow.

Speaker 2 (20:19):
Well, I'm so nervous about tipping this glass over.

Speaker 1 (20:24):
But he was fewed as someone who took his job seriously,
but those closest to him later admitted that something darker
simmered under the surface. His marriage was strained, eventually endingan divorce. Now,
his drive for attention, his obsession with fires, and his

(20:44):
long hours all created distance at home. I get that, yeah,
I mean I any wife of a firefighter, police officer, military,
you got yeah. Y'all are amazing because I couldn't do it.
I'm too needy. Now, his colleagues also notice an intensity

(21:08):
in him that sometimes felt more like ego than dedication.
I agree. He wanted to be seen not just as
a firefighter, but as an expert, a leader, and in
his own mind perhaps a hero.

Speaker 2 (21:27):
What could have been? What could have been? If that's
exactly probably what he would have been remembered as. I mean,
he continue to look at that photo.

Speaker 1 (21:37):
I mean this guy right, yes, but he looks respectable.

Speaker 2 (21:48):
M But you know, power and ego do crazy things.

Speaker 1 (21:53):
Now, lady and Gray said something. Let's see. Oh I
can't click on it. There it goes. I think he
didn't have the power that cops have, or the true authority,
well not necessarily the case, so they do have. Fire
investigators have a lot of the same authorities as law
enforcement officers in California. He could arrest an arsonist or

(22:19):
a person.

Speaker 2 (22:21):
They can, Yeah, they can arrest people here, but the
head not like a regular.

Speaker 1 (22:27):
Ye, but you could. So in reality, the man who
swore to protect his community was secretly betraying it because
he is a man. But while his family believed he
was working to keep people safe, or was setting hundreds

(22:48):
of fires himself. Guys, you heard me, Let me get closer,
hundreds of fires himself that destroyed property, devastating neighborhoods, and
ultimately took innocent lives. Guys, I'm going to warn you
buckle up because it's about to get insane. So I

(23:13):
suggest a big glass of wine or something cool to
drink garrita, because it's going to be hot and it's
just crazy, and I am going to try to keep
my rants in check.

Speaker 2 (23:27):
I was gonna say, remember too, we have a part two.
I remember that. That's how insane the story is. That
it really does take two parts to tell this whole story.

Speaker 1 (23:37):
Yes, Cap, and he likes Shiny's shoes. He was in
the Air Force.

Speaker 2 (23:42):
Oh that Thomas Sweat Arsenis case. So we covered a
couple months ago, unforgettable. If you have heard that story
of that arsenist, please go find our Thomas Sweat.

Speaker 1 (23:53):
Okay, so when did we do that?

Speaker 2 (23:54):
I want to say late May, June, June. I think
it was. It was a doozy, It was a jozy. Well,
you guys. So October tenth was a hell a busy
day for the firefighters. Okay. So on October tenth, nineteen
eighty four, that's right, your little lama wasn't quite into
this world yet. It would be a whole nother year.

(24:17):
Or had been called to a small fire at Albertson's
Market in Pasadena. It started in a rack of potato
chip bags. Yeah, potato chip bags. Who knew the oil
and packaging making perfect fuel which I did not? Did
not know that or determined it was intentionally set now

(24:42):
Or left the Albertsons fire and on his way home,
while driving through Raymond Hill in South Pasadena, Or saw
the chaos on fire Or on Fair Oaks Avenue where
the Ole's home center was burning hot, and Or being

(25:02):
a firefighter, stopped and although he didn't have his gear
in his personal vehicle to assist with the fire, he
started taking pictures because he often used live fire pictures
and videos in his training seminars, which makes sense to me.
This is a picture of the the Olie's fire. By

(25:25):
the way. South Pasadena Fire Chief Jean Murray saw Or
at the fire and asked him if he could go
check out the report of another fire at Vaughn's Market.
So this is three, right? Are we up to three?

Speaker 1 (25:43):
Already?

Speaker 2 (25:44):
Albertson's, Ole's and now Vaughn's O one to not.

Speaker 1 (25:51):
And I call it alays well, it's O. I know
it's but I spell. It's just me. We have Ali's wich,
I do because I call it Ali's. While the Allie's
fire was steadily growing, Or reported to the Vaughn's Market
fire just three blocks away from Allie's. Now Or investigated

(26:12):
and said it too, began in a rack of potato
chip bags, like the Albertson's fire he had reported to
earlier that evening. Now he once again declared at Arson
after his investigation, Oh wow, that yeah, I mean chip bags.

(26:34):
They have changed what the bags are made in now
so they're not as flammable. But back in the day
when I was in Girls Scouts in the seventies, one
quick way to start the campfire was with the back
of potato chips.

Speaker 2 (26:50):
I imagining, Wow. For you know, we really need to
work on making one of those. Somebody put that on
one of our to do lists for this weekend. By
the way, I think it should be me and Terry
riding a rainbow to a star. That says, the more
you know, the more you know. That just went out
there for a creative team. Okay, not that you don't
have enough stuff to do, yes, something like that, but

(27:20):
I want to be riding the rainbow in the star.

Speaker 1 (27:22):
Yeah okay, and then cappens right a little wasp spray.
But you know what, back in the day, aquinet, you
could light a torch with the Aquinet and a cigarette lighter.

Speaker 2 (27:37):
Oh my gosh, can we side bar for just a second,
you said, lunette, because you know, I'm from the country
and that's where people used to burn trash. And I
remember being very little, like under five or six, and
there would just be like this big burn pit at
my grandparents' house and my boy cousins would take the
Aquinet kids just like like light light stuff on on fire.

(28:03):
Uh so, yeah, that definitely checked out.

Speaker 1 (28:06):
I did that in my house. And I will never
forget the switch that my dad made me go cut
off of the front tree.

Speaker 2 (28:15):
Mmm.

Speaker 1 (28:17):
I got a whoopin.

Speaker 2 (28:19):
I bet you know what because I didn't learn from
it on the wall. You didn't learn from it, did you?
Well maybe you did. You did it outside. But you
remember when you were in Ohio and I.

Speaker 1 (28:28):
Started that fire. To make fires, you used spray. Yeah,
you got fire started. That's how I with that. But
I do it safely now.

Speaker 2 (28:42):
Amos and I were just sitting there like that seems
like a horrible idea.

Speaker 1 (28:46):
Okay, guys. The wood was wet, it was everything was wet,
so it needed some heat. Okay, it needed some heat. Now.
While the always fire, like I said, he reported, there
was another rack of potato chips. He declared it arson
after his investigation. Thankfully, like the Albertsons fire, the Vaughn's

(29:10):
Market fire was easily contained and incurred no less of life,
thank goodness. Unfortunately the same could not be said for
the devastating Ali's Home Center fire.

Speaker 2 (29:25):
The Olies Home Center in South Pasadena was quiet on
October tenth, nineteen eighty four. The eighteen thousand square foot
hardware store set at a very busy intersection, but many
people were home that night watching the World Series between
the Detroit Tigers and the San Diego Padres. Big deal

(29:47):
during the time, guys, remember we're in the eighties. People
stayed at home and watched all the sports, so it
was a very big deal. At around seven thirty PM,
Billy and Ada Deal arrived with their two year old grandson, Matthew. Inside,
employee Jim oh Deim noticed smoke rising from a display rack.

(30:12):
At first, there were no flames, only a dark pillar
of smoke thickening rapidly. Jim ran through the aisle, shouting
for customers to get out. Way to go, Jim, Billy,
and Ada were separated. Billy saw the smoke racing towards him,
but couldn't find his wife or grandson. The smoke choked

(30:37):
his lungs until he was forced to flee. Jim passed
Ada and Matthew and the aisles, urging them to leave,
but moments later a wall of fire erupted. Steel fire
doors dropped, cutting visibility. As the power failed, Jim crawled

(30:58):
on the floor until he escape through a rear exit,
and his arms were badly, badly burned.

Speaker 1 (31:08):
Guys, I have the biggest fear of burning, Yes, to death.
So this just freaks me the.

Speaker 2 (31:14):
F out anybody else, I mean fires, I am not
to fuck around and find out it's honest.

Speaker 1 (31:19):
I mean I like to build fires. I don't want
to be on the fire. Fires are scary as they
should be. Now the fire exploded into a flashover, igniting
everything at once. And that is just footage, real footage, Yes,
there is live footage. Engines arrived within minutes. The station

(31:42):
was only three blocks away, but the blaze was already uncontrollable.
The roof collapsed, trapping to anyone still inside. By the
nights in four people, we're dead. Add a deal age
fifty two. Her grandson mat Matthew Trudell too.

Speaker 2 (32:08):
Oh what a cutie.

Speaker 1 (32:10):
Jimmy Settina, seventeen, employee and promising baseball player. Carolyn Krause
twenty five, an employee and mother of two ough. It
took one hundred and twenty five firefighters until midnight to
control the blaze.

Speaker 2 (32:33):
That sounds like an enormous amount.

Speaker 1 (32:35):
I mean, it's a eighteen thousand square foot and they
had so much stuff in there that's flammable. It's like
a bomb waiting to go off.

Speaker 2 (32:47):
Goodness.

Speaker 1 (32:48):
Now, investigators ruled it accidental, saying it likely was an
electrical short in the attic, and guys, I did not
know grocery stores had addicts. I mean, they're probably not
like attic addicts. Okay, then why do we call it
an attic? Can we just not stay in the ceiling?

(33:10):
I mean maybe they did.

Speaker 2 (33:11):
I don't know. I don't build these places.

Speaker 1 (33:13):
They because to me the attic, I'm thinking they're store
and stuff up there.

Speaker 2 (33:19):
It's probably more like a crawl space I bet you
know sort of thing.

Speaker 1 (33:25):
So we Okay, hold on, I can't see. But somebody
said they know this story. Sammy said she knows the story.
I try not to look anything up, but I recall
a documentary a few years back. Yes, I found out
there is a documentary. I have downloaded it and I

(33:45):
am going to watch it on the plane Saturday.

Speaker 2 (33:50):
Oh, I see uh over in our our server, our
Steff's her for Angie's found a twenty five fun tests
some for your police office selection tests. So maybe we
might have to do that to Mama.

Speaker 1 (34:06):
You weren't on midday missing, I don't think. But I'm
also why I'm in the LA area I am trying
to go to these locations and take pictures of what's
there now, and I'm going to talk to Scott at
dinner on Sunday night to see if he knows any
inside information since he lives there, and if he heard anything.

(34:27):
But I am going to go take pictures.

Speaker 2 (34:29):
I'm very jealous that you've got to actually meet Scott
in person. I'll be honest. He seems lovely. Scott Hoover,
author of Beverly Hills Noir. Yes, fantastic guy. He comes
on sometimes.

Speaker 1 (34:41):
Any of us helped us with the Menindaz Brothers.

Speaker 2 (34:44):
Yes, we should just have him on just to hang out.

Speaker 1 (34:48):
We s facinating. Is he's fascinating?

Speaker 2 (34:51):
All right, you guys? Well sadly for this now in
this story now. Or went back to the Ali site
on his own and spent six to seven hours investigating
the scene, which sounds totally normal to do. Why would
he not. He believed that the fire likely originated in

(35:15):
highly combustible polyphone products, which he said was the same
as the Albertson's and Vaughan's fire on the same evening.
Look at that devastation.

Speaker 1 (35:27):
Oh goodness, no, but Lama, he was not the investigator
on that fire.

Speaker 2 (35:33):
No, but I can imagine though, like it's a huge fire.
If you're going to want to teach other people.

Speaker 1 (35:39):
About I forget he's a teacher.

Speaker 2 (35:42):
Yeah, Like to me, it makes sense for him to
just go. And I don't think this is that weird.

Speaker 1 (35:49):
I'm going to give I'm going to go with you
on that one.

Speaker 2 (35:51):
It's the a that they don't have the internet, so
it was still being created. Yeah, and this is and
devastating and I'm sure there were things to learn. But anyway, now,
John Orr, though, was convinced that all three fires were
arson and was not happy when the Olies fire was

(36:17):
declared to be an accident. Okay, Or challenged Sergeant Palmer,
the official investigator that declared the Olie's Home Center fire
an accident caused by an electrical short. Oh, we know
is wrong. But he began pushing his theory that there

(36:38):
was a serial arsonist in Greater LA and was not
quiet about it, or even discussed his theory with another
investigator from the LA Fire Department named Dennis Foot, who
trusted Orr and believed him and made him more aware. Hmm.

Speaker 1 (36:59):
I mean I would have believed in he's a very
well respected investigator who I would have been like, dude,
I believe you. So I'm Dennis. I get it now.
Several days after the devastating Ollie's fire, another small fire

(37:20):
broke out about seventeen miles away in a North Hollywood
hardware store in the polyphone section, just like the fires.
On October tenth, investigator Dennis Foot started agreeing with Or
that there could be a serial arsonist in the Greater

(37:41):
LA area. This pleased John Or immensely. Ivery dom Can
I tell you when researching this the first thing I
thought of when I was writing that comment. This pleased
him immensely. That it's like a kid on Chrism this morning.

Speaker 2 (38:02):
I mean, we'll get into the next We'll be honest.
I do like when people agree with me and I'm like, yeah.

Speaker 1 (38:11):
I know, but yeah. So two months after the deadly
Alays blaze, another ALWAYS location in Pasadena had a scare.
Staff discovered a partially burned incendiary device. Okay, I love that.
I put I had written a fire device because I

(38:32):
knew I would have trouble saying insendary advice and Captain
changed it back. Thank you, Captain, you just wanted to
make me have trouble pronouncing it, but thank you. Good job.
So a cigarette and three matches bound with a rubber
band in a pile of polypoam. Now it had failed
to ignite and had just smoked. Now, this type of

(38:56):
device is used to give the arsonist time to flee
the scene before the fire erupts. It takes roughly fifteen
minutes for the cigarette to burn down and light the matches.
Now we're going to see a video of a device
burning because I wanted to try this because I like

(39:17):
to do science experiments. And then Lama just let me. No,
cigarettes no longer burn like they used to.

Speaker 2 (39:24):
That's true, they stopped doing that because of fires. Well,
but here's an example of how it would go. Yeah,
I mean you could probably still, but you're not getting
like fifteen minutes. Okay, that's not happening, but yeah.

Speaker 1 (39:37):
I mean that to me. We's just yeah. So because
the octobers our Ali's fire was officially ruled accidental, the
December fire was not linked to it, despite proximity. Now,

(40:00):
then just hit my brain, m and please tell me
my brain is just warped. Well, you think they wanted
to call it accidental, so that Allie's would be responsible
for taking care of the families.

Speaker 2 (40:19):
Mm ooh that's that's uh interesting.

Speaker 1 (40:23):
Also, that just hit my head because if it's Arson,
the company's not responsible.

Speaker 2 (40:31):
Yeah to pay.

Speaker 1 (40:33):
That's see where my brain goes.

Speaker 2 (40:35):
Hey, I don't think that's warped. That's no, that's been
a very interesting, interesting question. I don't know, because you know,
the thing with arsonist is they are serious. You don't
just ever just light one fire and be done. You
light numerous for a very long long time. And I mean,
there just seems to be a lot of these. I

(40:59):
don't understand why this is not obvious to everybody, Like I'll.

Speaker 1 (41:02):
Just play and I'll just wait. It's going to get more.

Speaker 2 (41:08):
But that's a good I wonder.

Speaker 1 (41:10):
But that I just wonder that.

Speaker 2 (41:12):
So I mean, hmm, that is now question for me
to ask Scott, and that is Yeah, I'm interested in it.
I've been thinking about it. Now I might go down
the rabbit home myself.

Speaker 1 (41:29):
Now.

Speaker 2 (41:30):
In January nineteen eighty seven, Arson investigators from all over
California met up for a conference in Fresno. Now two
hundred and forty two conference goers attended with intendees including firefighters,
Arson investigators, insurance investigators, lawyers, and some police officers. Now,

(41:53):
I also just want to put out there if you
are a fire investigator or anything about this, I would
love to talk to you. I really would because fire
we don't talk about that a lot in true crime,
and I find it fascinating and I want to know
all about it.

Speaker 1 (42:06):
So I do too.

Speaker 2 (42:07):
It happen to be one, give us an interview, because
I would love to hear it.

Speaker 1 (42:11):
If you know one, yeah, I want to.

Speaker 2 (42:16):
They just don't get as much coverage as police officers do,
but they do important work too. Anyway, you would think
that while they're having this whole convention, you would think
that the area would be safe from fires because who
wants to start a fire near hundreds of firefighters and investigators,
right Like, why would you do that? Well, if that

(42:37):
was true, we most likely would not be discussing this
case tonight. Would Wait, No, is that their logo? Because
that's pretty bad ass. I'm going to be it is okay,
like with the fire ring around it, and this is
the fire ring. It's all right, Yeah, good job to
those people designing that. That's It's good.

Speaker 1 (42:58):
Now. During the son of the conference, a fire started
at Payless Drugs in Fresno, California, with the fire starting
in a bin of sleeping bags. The store was outfitted
with the overhead sprinklers, which promptly were activated by the fire,
and the blaze was quickly extinguished, thank god. Now. The

(43:24):
very next day, directly across the street from Payless Drugs,
another incident occurred when a customer noticed smoke rising up
in the corner of the Hancock Fabric store and alerted
the store employee. Now, they evacuated the store and all

(43:44):
stood outside watching as the store erupted into a full
burning fire that destroyed the building. This is live video
from that fire.

Speaker 2 (43:55):
Yes, all the video, I think most of the videos
we have tonight that were Yes. If you're listening on
the podcast, please come to our YouTube channel, True Crime
in One Time. Yes, we do visuals for all shows.
But this is massive.

Speaker 1 (44:09):
I mean it was discovered by the firefighters that the
fire started in a storage bin filled with styrofoam pellets
that are used to stuffed beanbags. Ugh. I mean, guys,
I've been on the front line of a fire in
my emergency response thing, and I can tell you the

(44:33):
heat is insanity. Oh.

Speaker 2 (44:37):
I bet and yeah, I could never have.

Speaker 1 (44:40):
A child now. Also, while investigating the remains of a
delayed device made from a partially burned cigarette with three
matches attached with the rubber band were found. The same
as the others.

Speaker 2 (44:58):
But nothing to see here, nothing to say, it's all.

Speaker 1 (45:01):
They're all. They're not the same. What are you talking about.
They're in different counties, they're in different parts of California.

Speaker 2 (45:08):
Oh my goodness. Now, just down the street at a
house of fabrics, an employee noticed burn marks on the
wall behind a bend filled with foam pillows. And guess
what else he found? Anybody guesses? Yep, it was another
delayed device made of a cigarette, matches and a rubber band.

(45:29):
It was just pure luck that the device burned out
and didn't ignite and start a fire, like literally across
the street and then down the street.

Speaker 1 (45:40):
No coincidences, guys, because I don't believe in quinktings. And
these are fourties literally.

Speaker 2 (45:46):
On the same street. Oh my gosh, it doesn't take
a freaking rocket scientist. But now on the final morning
of the conference, because remember this is all going on,
when all those firefighters and investigators are all in this
exact area. On the final morning of the conference, a
fourth fire broke out, this time about an hour away

(46:08):
from Fresno into Larry, and I wish you guys saw
the pronunciation that I think cap and put for me.

Speaker 1 (46:16):
I know it is literally too dash Larry. Okay. I
don't know if Kelly p is on here tonight, but
I know when I lived in California it was called
too Larry. Well, we're going with too Larry because I
like the sound, because I like the way to Larry.

(46:36):
I like Larry.

Speaker 2 (46:38):
It's fine. I'm from Ohio, so I can pronounce it wrong.
It's I get it passed now. Around ten forty five
in the morning, a fire erupted in a display of
sleeping bags at Outdoor Adventure retail store. Another one thirty
to forty five minutes later, also into Larry. An employee

(47:02):
at the Family Bargain center noticed smoke coming from a
display of foam pillows and alerted his manager, who was
able to put the fire out with the store's fire extinguisher.
Now at the bottom of the display, guess what they found.
A burn cigarette tied to two matches, and excuse me,

(47:24):
a yellow piece of legal pad paper. That's right, there
was an extra addition that they found in this one.
And uh, you know, at this point, I don't know
about you guys, but I'm gonna say that these seem
pretty pretty connected. This just seems like he's targeting like
poor stores.

Speaker 1 (47:46):
Okay, Kappains, I'm gonna go with you. And maybe it
was because of the San Francisco people talking, because I.

Speaker 2 (47:53):
Like to Larry, I want to make it happened.

Speaker 1 (47:58):
With the other thing that I find interesting about these stores.
If you stop and think these stores, Hancock Fabric, the
outdoor stores, they all had petroleum based products to burn.

Speaker 2 (48:12):
That's true. They also sound like they don't sound like
corporate businesses. You know.

Speaker 1 (48:18):
Well, Vonn's is okay, Vaughn's Supermarket is part of Safe Way,
Albertson's Okay, I think maybe part of Kroger's or Randall's.
But yeah, So we had Vaughn's in Vegas and in
California and they are part of safe Way.

Speaker 2 (48:34):
Okay, So these aren't like mond.

Speaker 1 (48:36):
No in Handtock Fabrics is a huge fabric store kind
of like Joeanne's if you've ever heard of that, or
like a hobby lobby.

Speaker 2 (48:44):
Well, we had both of those.

Speaker 1 (48:47):
No, no, they're big stores. But this is back in
the eighties. They weren't the conglomerates they are today, and
they weren't totals, girdles and yo yo's.

Speaker 2 (48:54):
But I forgot all about girdles, turtles and yo.

Speaker 1 (48:58):
Yo et I was a brit thing and they were
in other places.

Speaker 2 (49:02):
If somebody add that to my lama learns about show
for October, you want to learn all about this turtles, girdles.

Speaker 1 (49:10):
And but you I could get some people I grew
up with on all different ages who can tell you
about things from t gmy, I believe you now something interesting.
In California, each city has their own fire departments and
at that time they did not share fire data with

(49:34):
other departments or cities.

Speaker 2 (49:37):
You you I have sovia doing well?

Speaker 1 (49:39):
Hi? You too, Hi?

Speaker 2 (49:44):
I mean that's here too. I mean even in my
city there's numerous.

Speaker 1 (49:48):
They can share data. So like in Texas, they shared data.
They literally faxed it to each other to check because
they know that arson is something that is habitual, like
a serial killer. You share that kind of information. But yeah,

(50:08):
so that you know. But like where I live currently,
a lot of fire stations are by county oh okay,
and not by cities, because there's so many cities. Okay,
so I see. But now, a couple of hours after

(50:28):
the Tularry fires, I like saying it that way. Now,
in about an hour south, the fire department in Bakersfield, California,
I've been stuck there, don't go there, was dispatched to
a fire at the Craft Smart after an employee noticed
flames in a display full of dry material used for

(50:48):
making floral arrangements. So guys like very flammable like foam.

Speaker 2 (50:54):
Wow. Okay.

Speaker 1 (50:55):
But thankfully that fire too was put out with a
fire extinguisher and no major damage was caused. Now, I'm
going to introduce you to my hero fire Captain Marvin Casey.
So he investigated the fire at the Craft Smart and

(51:18):
once again a delayed device was discovered. This time it
was the same type of device as the Tularry fires,
which included a cigarette, three matches, and a piece of
yellow legal paper. Wow.

Speaker 2 (51:35):
I love mister Casey's tie. First of all, I love that. Also,
is mister Casey still with us as adults? We should
ask him to come. I would love to hear what
you has.

Speaker 1 (51:50):
To say, Captain Angie. Somebody will you send me a
message on the discord and tell me to reach out,
because maybe I can try to reach out while I'm there,
and maybe.

Speaker 2 (52:02):
Because you will see fascinating. You don't know all about
mister Casey yet, but I do.

Speaker 1 (52:09):
And I love the fact that one of my favorite
characters that used to be on Chicago Fire his name
is Matt Casey. I've now decided that they got the
name from here.

Speaker 2 (52:19):
You gonna say, is he based? Oh?

Speaker 1 (52:21):
Juju is signing out? Now? Oh no? Does that help?

Speaker 2 (52:26):
Want to get sleep so happy?

Speaker 1 (52:28):
Well?

Speaker 2 (52:28):
No, I see her above comment there, she's dealing with
vandalism at her house. Oh no, we'll get them, don't
you worry?

Speaker 1 (52:37):
Yeah, we will get.

Speaker 2 (52:38):
So sorry, you have to deal with that, that's yeah.

Speaker 1 (52:41):
Just send me any of the information and I will
be more than happy to help you dig into it. Okay,
that's right now. Captain Casey got lucky as the piece
of paper was mostly unburned this time and they were
able to collect it for evidence.

Speaker 2 (53:05):
M hmmmm, dun dundum now. About thirty minutes later, the
Bakersfield Fire Department received another call. This time an employee
at Hancock Fabrics heard hissing noises coming from a display

(53:25):
filled with phone rubber batting. Then the bin erupted into flames,
spreading up the walls and triggering the overhead sprinklers, which activated.
Oh I'm sorry, my headphone just said low battery. That
was weird. Sorry, um anyway, the sprinklers, which were activated

(53:46):
and put out the fire. Now, Captain Casey was sent
to the second fire, and he was confused because two
fires occurring in retail stores within hours of each other
was beyond unusual. He began suspecting that the fires were
started by the same individual. Yes, yes, mister Casey is like.

Speaker 1 (54:12):
I know, he's like going captive apius people, Hello, right right?

Speaker 2 (54:16):
I mean to me, I don't know much about fires
and how often they are, but this seems like way
more fires than there should be during a given period
of time, Like was just everything flammable in the eight like,
which is just fires all of the time. For this
did not seem like a big deal that this many

(54:37):
huge fires happening. That's very weird to me. Also, this
method that's being used, it's not seeming like a very
reliable one because he's striking out more than no pun
intended with the matches.

Speaker 1 (54:53):
But there.

Speaker 2 (54:55):
I have some issues with him setting these fires. One
you think he would have that they're sprinklers. It's not
hard to notice them, right. But also this method is
getting put out numerous times. So surely though an experienced
firefighter would no better ways to start fires for more

(55:15):
impact if that was your goal. But I guess maybe
this wasn't so much about causing damage for him as
it is being more like, look what I can do,
Look at what I can do. That's what I'm thinking,
because how you know exactly what? Obviously he set certain

(55:38):
things on fire for a reason, but numerous of them.

Speaker 1 (55:43):
I agree with you. He wasn't doing it to destroy stuff.
He was doing it to be the hero, to be
able to say I told you there was a serial arsenist.
And Captain says, it's a game. I agree, it's and
that is why I am so excited next week to

(56:04):
share the psychological stuff I found.

Speaker 2 (56:06):
At this point, it does feel like a game.

Speaker 1 (56:09):
And Gie, thank you.

Speaker 2 (56:15):
Yes, sure, it's seeming like it. Huh, I'm sorry, it's hilarious.

Speaker 1 (56:24):
Okay, that is funny. That is funny.

Speaker 2 (56:28):
That is funny.

Speaker 1 (56:29):
Uh So, I mean I do agree, I mean, you
would think you could do a better job. But Captain
Casey spoke to an investigator in Fresno and learned about
the fires from that week. He was convinced that it
was a serial arsonist based on the fires all being

(56:49):
similar retail stores and the delayed device is found in
the world of serial killers. That is abso freakoutely. Yeah. Absolutely,
I mean, come on, I don't know. Maybe in the
fire world they don't call it that, but that is
an m O, guys, that is anmo how many different people.

(57:13):
The Internet wasn't around, so it's not like you could
just go to YouTube and figure out how to make
an incendinary divice.

Speaker 2 (57:19):
Exactly. Very good point, Terry.

Speaker 1 (57:21):
And I don't think the encyclopedia Britannica's had that.

Speaker 2 (57:29):
Some people may not know what an encyclopedia is. It's
the internet, but in books, it's in books.

Speaker 1 (57:36):
And let me tell you, we still have a set.

Speaker 2 (57:39):
Do you have a whole set? I wish I did,
I wish I did. I remember reading I.

Speaker 1 (57:44):
Could Devil Dragon had them at her house, so we
kept them.

Speaker 2 (57:49):
I love me a good encyclopedia.

Speaker 1 (57:51):
So, now, since the fires took place in multiple cities,
there were jurisdiction issues and I'm going to just say
probably ego issues. And the case was handed over to
the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms also known as
the ATF ADF. Now, the only evidence that gave them

(58:13):
any hope was the piece of unburned yellow legal paper
and guess what, guys, guess what they got lucky and
a fingerprint was found on the paper.

Speaker 2 (58:29):
Now that's the best you can do during this time, really, yeah,
And we didn't have that brand new technology DNA, and.

Speaker 1 (58:37):
It was one run through the small codas that they
had then, but no matches were found. So basically they
had a fingerprint but no name or evidence at this time,
kind of like today when you hear we've got DNA
but we don't know the person's name, so kind of
the same thing.

Speaker 2 (58:57):
Kind of yeah, okay, At that time, it was a
huge break.

Speaker 1 (59:00):
I'm sure, Amos a miss you you are on fire tonight.
I had to call you, amos a miss.

Speaker 2 (59:14):
I mean, oh boy, oh boy. Well you guys. The
investigators then decided to focus on the locations of each
fire and see what, if anything, was the common denominator.
The identical devices and Highway ninety nine routes suggested a

(59:36):
single offender. Now, Captain Casey believed the arsonists had targeted
the area due to the fact there was the arson
conference going on, and that maybe the arsonists had attended
the conference in some capacity and lit the fires while
traveling home. However, the ATF disci it's Sirian I want,

(01:00:01):
which makes me wonder what is ATF's theory in all
of this then, like when they were like, that doesn't
sound likely. This sounds more likely, or like what.

Speaker 1 (01:00:12):
Maybe they were more focused on alcohol sales.

Speaker 2 (01:00:15):
I don't know, nah, because this, as you said, these
were corporate businesses and we all know.

Speaker 1 (01:00:22):
No, I mean that matter busy dealing with alcohol. I'm
not worrying about fires. Oh alcohol tobacco fire, never mind
my joke.

Speaker 2 (01:00:30):
No, I get it.

Speaker 1 (01:00:31):
I'm sorry, Wow, but that's okay, Terry's crush. Captain Casey
was not deterred. Now, I do not know why the
headlines is not or nice, but I am here for
it because when I first read what Captain called the list,
I thought she was talking about Captain Casey, and I

(01:00:52):
was like, are you telling me I have to be
a naughty or nice with him? Anyway?

Speaker 2 (01:00:57):
It's a list of names.

Speaker 1 (01:00:58):
I know that, but I didn't go handwriting. I did
not go look at the picture. I just saw the title.
He's got good penmanship.

Speaker 2 (01:01:06):
He does. If that's his handwriting, Yes, that.

Speaker 1 (01:01:09):
Is good penmanship. Now, he contacted the conference managers and
obtained the list of all the attendees. He then looked
at the list to determine who would have driven home
on the Highway ninety nine and passed through to Larry
and Bakersfield. He narrowed the list down from two hundred

(01:01:31):
and forty two to fifty five. That's a lot of
work for the year. Yeah, I didn't. There was not
the internet people.

Speaker 2 (01:01:41):
No internet database is really a whole lot in none
of that.

Speaker 1 (01:01:45):
Yeah, and he turned it over to the ATF. But
guess what, guys, they were not interested. They were not. Now,
I mean, who wants to think that maybe your arsonist
is a firefight? I mean I get that. But maybe

(01:02:05):
it was someone besides a firefighter who went to the convention.
Maybe that's true.

Speaker 2 (01:02:10):
It could have been there were other people there that
were not firefighters.

Speaker 1 (01:02:14):
What if it was a cop who failed out from
being had become a cop?

Speaker 2 (01:02:23):
Yeah, now, shut up, amos shut up.

Speaker 1 (01:02:30):
Amus, just changed the picture and stop being hilarious. But
I'm here for it.

Speaker 2 (01:02:37):
Sorry.

Speaker 1 (01:02:38):
So, like I said, who wants to think that maybe
your arcisis is a firefighter girl? Sorry? With no match
to the fingerprint, did you see that? Or solid evidence
found on the delayed device, the case soon became cold. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:03:02):
In March nineteen eighty nine, it was time again for
the California Arson Investigation Conference, which I have no reason
to go to this conference, but I'm actually really intrigued
to go to one of these conference. Can we just
go if we buy tickets? That's what I want to.

Speaker 1 (01:03:18):
Know, and we probably could.

Speaker 2 (01:03:22):
But I mean, I've seen some firefighters lately.

Speaker 1 (01:03:25):
All I'm saying, Okay, she's forty, she's feeling it. Guys
needs a fire. Fine, Lama is on fire and she
needs a fireman to come put out her fire.

Speaker 2 (01:03:36):
I'm just saying. I'm just saying. Now. This time it
was held in Pacific Grove. Yeah sounds familiar, huh, in
Oceanside City in Monterey County. Beautiful freaking place. I must say,
that's freaking gorgeous. We don't have places in Ohio that
look anything like that. Many of the antendees plan small

(01:03:58):
getaways around this conference because Monterey is absolutely setting and
there is so much to see and do, and I
want to go really bad. I'm going to strap a
GoPro to you, Terry.

Speaker 1 (01:04:11):
Okay, well, I will tell you I have been to
Pacific Grove and I can tell you it is absolutely
freaking beautiful, and along with Monterey Proper, these are two
of my favorite places. Now we all know napis my
top favorite. But I'm going to ask you know what do.

Speaker 2 (01:04:31):
You mean by Monterey Proper? What does that mean?

Speaker 1 (01:04:34):
So there's Monterey County and then there's actually Monterey. Oh okay, Okay,
I see what you mean. All of Monterey is beautiful.
Pacific Groves than Monterey County. I mean, it's all.

Speaker 2 (01:04:46):
I see what you Yeah, you mean it.

Speaker 1 (01:04:48):
Okay. Now I'm going to ask you all to bear
with me for a minute because I love all animals
and h H and I fell in love with Skeezy
while visiting Monterey County. I do not remember exactly where
we were, but we got out of our car and
we're walking by the water and I wanted to share
this video with you.

Speaker 2 (01:05:08):
Okay, let's do it because I've been waiting to see
what this is. We're in Mona REYUSA. Yes, okay, this
looks like water some pure.

Speaker 1 (01:05:19):
Where's the sound action?

Speaker 2 (01:05:21):
It might not have something?

Speaker 1 (01:05:22):
Oh, there it is.

Speaker 2 (01:05:31):
You're saying what something?

Speaker 1 (01:05:40):
Wait?

Speaker 2 (01:05:40):
Is that an otter? Is that an animal there in
the middle?

Speaker 1 (01:05:43):
Oh? And every time I would say what it would
talk to me back. Oh okay, I'm sorry. At first
I just thought it was trash, and then I realized
can't turned the volume down because it was so loud.
Oh see there's more.

Speaker 2 (01:06:01):
Oh my gosh, there's more otters are So she's talking
to elbow feet about otters. The other night.

Speaker 1 (01:06:06):
It's her baby. She came to get her baby.

Speaker 2 (01:06:13):
Okay, those are adorable because I didn't realize the other
night that otters had like pause in the front. But
then they have like seal flippers on the bottom, and.

Speaker 1 (01:06:26):
I was like, wait, what all?

Speaker 2 (01:06:29):
I don't know this about otters. That's so adorable.

Speaker 1 (01:06:32):
But we were just walking by a pier and I
saw it and I said, what is that? And it
way e and that's what we called it, skeezy. And
he even bought me a stuffed otter that I have
and it's got a little shirt that says my name
is skis Oh. I love that I had made for it.
So that is one of the things that just walking
randomly in Monterey or Pacific Grove you can find.

Speaker 2 (01:06:55):
I love that. Thank you for sharing that, Terry.

Speaker 1 (01:06:57):
So we needed something lighthearted there.

Speaker 2 (01:07:00):
Yes, I agree, that was a wonderful idea.

Speaker 1 (01:07:04):
Skeezy, is that what you said is easy?

Speaker 2 (01:07:07):
Excusey? Okay? Oh that's adorable. Well, thank you for sharing that.
If you're listening to this podcast, you need to come
over to our YouTube channel and look at those freaking
cue orders because that's adorable. Now. On March third, nineteen
eighty nine, just two days before the start of the conference,
you know, guess it, guys, a fire erupted at the

(01:07:29):
Cornette Variety store in Morrow Bay, which is about one
hundred and forty five miles from the conference site south.
If you're seeing the visuals, it is on the southern
part of California. Kind of boy, where a certain so
and so lives. Now, the fire started and of course

(01:07:53):
a ben of foam pillows before being put out by
a fast acting store in employee.

Speaker 1 (01:08:01):
Who I hope got a bonus, a gold star, a
day off something.

Speaker 2 (01:08:06):
He works at a five ten, twenty five cents store.
You think is happening. That's crazy that things were even
five ten or twenty five cents.

Speaker 1 (01:08:16):
What a time to be alive.

Speaker 2 (01:08:19):
Oh my goodness, yes, but good gold star to that
employee knowing what to do now. Then the next day
at Woolworths, Hey, I've heard of that place, and Selena
is about nineteen miles from the conference location, a fire
erupted in the store's betting section and damaged a large

(01:08:41):
portion of the store. Now there weren't There were not
any reports of delay devices being found at these two fires,
but it's still pretty pretty suspicious to me. I think
we should include them anyway. So that's just my opinion.
So now it's like five ten to fifteen dollars, I agree.

Speaker 1 (01:09:06):
But the fires were not over. On March ninth, nineteen
eighty nine, the day after the conference ended, another fire
spree hit several towns. First was at the fire at
the Pacific Home Improvement Center and at Tescadero, which is

(01:09:26):
a little over one hundred and twenty miles away from
Pacific Grove where the conference was held. Now at the
Pacific Home Improvement Center, foam products once again ignited into flames,
but were extinguished quickly. Just down the road, guys, A
little bit later, another fire broke out at the Coast

(01:09:50):
to Coast Hardware store. He has a type in a
in an m. Let's just say that, okay, Oh.

Speaker 2 (01:10:00):
I like their logo. It's a little like nutt and
bolt for that's clever. That's clever. I like that. Sorry.

Speaker 1 (01:10:11):
So, once again, the fire started in a bin of
foam products, but was put out. Guess what, guys. A
couple of miles away, another Cornet variety store had a
display of foam filling start smoldering and was also put
out by the store employees. Guys, so many fires you
can't even count. It's just insane now. During the investigation afterwards,

(01:10:38):
one delayed device was found at the Pacific Home Improvement site,
which you guess contained a cigarette, three matches, and a
yellow piece of legal paper bound with a rubber band.

Speaker 2 (01:10:51):
You think he would up the number of matches. I'm
just saying maybe the other day. So it's just kind
of like.

Speaker 1 (01:10:58):
I'm just thinking, this arsonist needs to find new method
because he is leaving a trail of droppings like that.

Speaker 2 (01:11:04):
You know what I think is interesting is that with
the first because this is important. The first conference that
they had, there were a lot of fires very close
to the conference center, but this time at the conference center,
there was not as many and they were actually kind
of further away between his coming and going from the

(01:11:26):
conference center. And I wonder if that's because our good hero,
actual hero of the story, Captain Casey, became more suspicious
and had this theory about the ur Sentisen convention center,
so he was being more careful. I wonder if that's

(01:11:47):
might have what been going on here.

Speaker 1 (01:11:50):
But Lama, you would think this was the last fire
of the day, but it was not. That's why it's
a two parter. Now we had over, okay, caappen? Just
close your ears. San Luis, Obispo, which is about twenty
miles south to the Party Exchange store where a fire

(01:12:11):
destroyed the in Tire building and there is a little
clip of that one as well. Investigators suspected that this
was not an accidental fire and that the fire had
been set once again in a bind, but this time
with packing material. Actually news yeah, I mean.

Speaker 2 (01:12:37):
The whole building was destroyed, but no loss of life,
thank goodness. Oh I hate fires.

Speaker 1 (01:12:47):
Suspicious Hey, guy's hair.

Speaker 2 (01:12:51):
It's fantastic freaking hair man. Oh my goodness, Wow, look
at him?

Speaker 1 (01:12:58):
What if?

Speaker 2 (01:12:59):
What a time caps that?

Speaker 1 (01:13:00):
Uh? Look at all the little yellow tags on this.

Speaker 2 (01:13:06):
Ye, Captain did an amazing job.

Speaker 1 (01:13:08):
With Cappain just did an amazing job.

Speaker 2 (01:13:12):
Yes, as always, it's rounded a plus everybody.

Speaker 1 (01:13:15):
What happened now?

Speaker 2 (01:13:18):
As you can imagine, when word hit Captain Casey, he
started looking into the fires. He found that, like nineteen
eighty nine, every fire targeted foam or pillow displays and
all coincided with the conference. Now, Captain Casey once again

(01:13:40):
pushed the theory that the arsonist was among the attendees.
He then reached out again to get the conference attendee
list we're showing right over there, and began comparing this
conference guest list with the previous one, narrowing the list

(01:14:01):
down to ten suspects. That's right, just ten, And once again,
once again, Captain Casey, the real hero of the story,
turned that over to ATF, who was not any more
thrilled than last time. Again, what in the f was

(01:14:21):
their theory? Then, mister ATF people, Because I am not
an expert, but this seems pretty freaking obvious. To me
so anyway, however, well, they may not have been thrilled
though this time the ATF did agree to quietly check

(01:14:46):
the fingerprints of the tense suspects. That's or I think
Captain Casey won them over a little bit with his charm.
And this included John orr Now against the public safety
database and oh, I'm sorry I read that wrong. My apologies.
They ran that against the public Safety Employee database, which

(01:15:08):
was something they had at the time. Yet though, no
matches were returned, so the ATF sent Captain Casey on
his way and dismissed his theory, which I'm had to
have been devastating for mister Casey.

Speaker 1 (01:15:27):
I know, but I'm like you when you wonder what
is their theory? They're not sharing it. No, i'd be
Captain Casey is giving you information and a theory. I
just don't get why you wouldn't listen. I mean, they
did agree to check the fingerprints, so are.

Speaker 2 (01:15:45):
The FEDS is all uncertain, so they might think they
know better. Yeah. No, it's the seventies or eighties. It's
a wild time. There are crazy things going on for
the ATF. By the way, during this time, if you know.

Speaker 1 (01:15:59):
Sammy I love that you like to see the naughty
list dwindle down. Oh girl, do not start the Christmas stuff.
I saw a post either today or yesterday, you're of Christmas,
and I saw that we have one hundred days left
in this year.

Speaker 2 (01:16:17):
She I know for a fact, Sam right now is
jumping up and down and being like Terry. But it's
my favorite time, so I know it's your favorite time
of the year.

Speaker 1 (01:16:25):
Can we just can we just get past Halloween and
then you can deck the halls, peppermint patty, everything you want.

Speaker 2 (01:16:37):
Just let's get through Halloween Halloween. My little Lama told
me yesterday that in orchestra class they're learning the This
is Halloween song from The Nightmare before Christmas. And I
was like, oh, that's cool. I hope you're going to
play that at your Christmas concert. But he didn't know.

Speaker 1 (01:16:52):
But I love that.

Speaker 2 (01:16:55):
My little Lama knows how to play this, So I'm
going to make him play for me all weekend for
my birthday.

Speaker 1 (01:16:59):
I I love that, Toll. Could you record it and
not tell him and then share it with us long?

Speaker 2 (01:17:04):
I mean, he'd play it for you. I think it
was last year on my birthday. Yeah, it was last
year on my birthday, we were hanging out with my
friends on Discord and he came out he had.

Speaker 1 (01:17:13):
Learned how to play Happy Birthday on his violin. For okay,
could we set up a thing on members only or
alive or something where he plays for us? Maybe?

Speaker 2 (01:17:25):
Maybe, Okay, I'll ask him about it tonight. He'll be
here this weekend.

Speaker 1 (01:17:29):
You know. Monkey Bed still keeps getting mad at me
because she's like, could you stop trying to set me
up with baby Lama. That's just not funny.

Speaker 2 (01:17:38):
Yeah, probably not. Yeah, but I will see if he wants.

Speaker 1 (01:17:44):
To do that now. On June twenty seventh, nineteen ninety,
temperature soared over one hundred degrees fahrenheit and winds gusted
at thirty five miles an hour. Guys, this is the
kind of day every firefighter dries, I mean dreads because
everything is right for a fire. I mean here in

(01:18:07):
the Austin area, we're on burn bands because we've got
the hot winds, no water, and the temperatures.

Speaker 2 (01:18:16):
So we've only recently, in the last few years have
had burn warnings in Ohio. It was not a normal
thing until a few years ago.

Speaker 1 (01:18:25):
We are kindling right now, so it's not good. Like
my Amazon boxes are stacking up because I can't burn them.
That's okay. Now, around three point thirty, a brush fire
ignited in Glendale's College Hills neighborhood, and the Glendale Fire
Department was called out. Now, guys, John Orr had recently

(01:18:46):
been promoted to fire captain at the Glendale Fire Department. Yes,
you heard me right, he got a promotion. Now, fueled
by scorching weather in dense, overgrown bushes, the blaze tore
through the hillsides with a speed that stunned even the
most seasoned firefighters. Flames raced upward in walls of fire

(01:19:12):
them lapped across the Glendel Freeway in a matter of minutes.
Now the site quickly became a scene of chaos, with
fire engines from every jurdis jurisdiction in the San Gabriel
Valley arriving clogging streets as columns of black smoke blotted

(01:19:33):
out the sun and drifted down like snow. Look at
the sky's this is horrific.

Speaker 2 (01:19:43):
Yeah? Is that? Is that the same area as the
flat fires from recently in different different area?

Speaker 1 (01:19:52):
So La proper caught on fire?

Speaker 2 (01:19:55):
Okay, yeah, I'm not the best with California and geography.

Speaker 1 (01:19:59):
Yeah, let me those tires burning right now in California
as well, really there is They're not They're controlled right now.
But that's what I say. It is very important there
because they get the Santa Anna winds and the heat
and not having the moisture. They have got to keep

(01:20:21):
all you see dried leaves, dried bushes. You got to
cut those suckers. You cannot have leaves in your yard.

Speaker 2 (01:20:31):
Wow, that's crazy.

Speaker 1 (01:20:33):
Okay, now lady and Gray is piping in. Guys, I
love you, I just love you. I just love all
of you. We have to.

Speaker 2 (01:20:44):
I know some people are very turned off when people
laugh while telling these stories. We're not laughing at the stories.
We're doing what we can to make lay of what
is truly something horrific.

Speaker 1 (01:20:55):
Right, house burned down when you were nineteen?

Speaker 2 (01:20:58):
Yeah, I know fires is terrifying and horrifying, But I
will say this. In mental health support groups I used
to run, we embrace humor as healthy because actually it is.

Speaker 1 (01:21:12):
It is.

Speaker 2 (01:21:13):
It is actually healthy.

Speaker 1 (01:21:15):
That's why police officers, firefighters, people that first responders, they
say some jokes that you're like, I can't believe you
just said that they've got to find humor where you can.

Speaker 2 (01:21:28):
Yeah, shut upright, I'm a sucker for puns to our friends.

Speaker 1 (01:21:36):
No, that's absolutely I mean luckily I didn't said any
wars on fire.

Speaker 2 (01:21:47):
Now at this point, I'm sorry, Where are we again,
San Gabriel Valley? Okay, okay, Now. Sirens wailed, air horns blasted,
and police scrambled to throw up barricades, holding back desperate
residents who shouted the names of missing children and pets

(01:22:08):
into the choking haze. This is like one of my
worst time years. I'm so glad it's not really a
thing here, but oh my god, above the chaos, helicopters
hovered in tight circles, unleashing torrents of water onto the
inferno below. And this is something we now get to
see lots of times on news. I know a lot

(01:22:29):
of us don't bat our eyes anymore when there's a
fire in California.

Speaker 1 (01:22:34):
But if y'all ever want live pictures, when I responded
to a fire last year, the counter Powder Keck fire,
I actually whipped out my phone and took pictures of
the helicopters and planes dropping water on the fire. Where
was rehapping firefighters.

Speaker 2 (01:22:50):
I just you know, I think it's something too. A
lot of the rest of the country and people living
in other places. It's really hard for us to comprehend it, really,
really it is.

Speaker 1 (01:23:00):
But like I should get flooding, some places get fire,
someplaces get hur encountering. Some of you get these things
called real blizzards, not like the Massachusetts blizzards.

Speaker 2 (01:23:13):
I will take any of that over fires, please and
thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:23:17):
Hi, I would agree, but I think we all get
our own things. Yeah, And that's how you should travel,
people and visit someplace other than yours, because you will
meet great people and you will learn something.

Speaker 2 (01:23:33):
Yeah, for sure, for sure. Now amid this frenzy, John
Or moved with a singular focus. While firefighters fought to
contain the flames, he immediately began tracing the fire's destructive path,
which doesn't sound too weird because that's kind of his jobs.

(01:23:55):
It's kind of that's a job is literally to find
out where this fire happened, which I've also learned is
normal for fires, such as was it caused by a
lightning strike? Was this done by a civilian? Purposefully? I
learned is a very important thing.

Speaker 1 (01:24:14):
In lighty and gray. You're absolutely right, volunteer firefighters. I
mean they are even bigger badasses because they're doing it
without getting paid for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:24:26):
For sure. Now, as he was following the blackened trail
to its beginning, he closed off the area and declared
it a crime scene, because again they can do that.
The burn patterns told a chilling story. The fire had
ignited at the bottom of a ravine, where power of

(01:24:49):
powerful winds had carried it uphill, turning a spark into catastrophe.
I also saw the I didn't know why fire hawks
were named firehawks until.

Speaker 1 (01:25:02):
The other day.

Speaker 2 (01:25:03):
Oh really, yes, I didn't know that, because we don't
have that problem in Ohio, right. So for everybody else
that doesn't know about fire hawks, side tangent lamas notorious
for them. They caught fire hawks because these hawks learned
to pick up burning embers in a forest fire such
as this or any large fire, and to pick up

(01:25:25):
the burning embers and place them somewhere else to catch
that on fire because all of the live food runs out,
and they've learned how to do that to hunts. And
I was like, I just thought fire hawk was a
cool name. I'll be honest, I just thought that was a.

Speaker 1 (01:25:42):
Reason they call their hunters. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:25:47):
I was like, wait, they do what Now, that's amazing. Sorry,
the more you know.

Speaker 1 (01:25:56):
I appreciate that. I didn't think of turning that, but
yeah they do.

Speaker 2 (01:25:59):
I know we have hawks here, but not that now.
Amid this frenzy, John Or served with a oh no eight,
I already said that air mind. Sorry, I highlighted the
wrong part. Okay, So we got this fire going. Okay.
The blaze then raced up till jumping rooftops, spreading faster

(01:26:23):
than most firefighters had ever seen, which seems so sorry.
Y'all didn't see Dan kiss Amy in the background, but
I did.

Speaker 1 (01:26:35):
Love, so I didn't have to interrupt you. But kid,
you just remind Dan you're on camera and looks like
a too frisky. I mean, I know it's hot in
there and all that we're talking about fires. But he
can George fire man later, and he can put your
flight out.

Speaker 2 (01:26:55):
Grossing control of yourself. I'm sorry anyway, you guys, I apologize.
So the firefighters are having a hell up a time now.
By the time the winds died down, forty six homes
were destroyed, twenty more damaged, and losses totaled fifty million dollars,

(01:27:17):
which I imagine is way more in today's prices.

Speaker 1 (01:27:23):
And think about that fifty million dollars price tag. Forty
six homes in twenty were damaged and it was fifty million.
That means the homes are Hella price cy in this
well in nineteen ninety.

Speaker 2 (01:27:38):
But it's not just about the homes. It's about the
infrastructure as well, you know, all of the power facilities,
all of all. As somebody who's with a utility locator,
you'd be surprised to know it's true. You know, roads,
there's many things besides homes.

Speaker 1 (01:28:00):
Showed that from my but I'm like, I still just
like to think that's just those are expensive.

Speaker 2 (01:28:06):
Oh if he marks something wrong and it's a damage,
it could cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. So it's
it's serious.

Speaker 1 (01:28:14):
You were going to have to talk one day to
see if he uses the same markings that we do
as first responders that show up before the responders get there,
and we have to do certain things to not go
in and we have certain protocols. I have to talk
to him, Yeah you should.

Speaker 2 (01:28:30):
I don't know that. I mean he has you know,
Marking says, I know what you refer.

Speaker 1 (01:28:35):
Tech's no listening. He's probably to be quite honest with you.
Well he should be. He's had a rough couple of days.

Speaker 2 (01:28:41):
Yes, very busy now.

Speaker 1 (01:28:43):
Mister John Orr quickly declared it arson and identified the
point of origin. But interestingly enough, after the initial investigation,
he shelved the case abruptly interesting shut it down now.
His partner Don Yeker was disturbed by his lack of

(01:29:06):
follow up Don me too, Okay, me too? And this
isn't the me too movement. This is me saying yes,
I'm on your side, dude. Other colleagues were equally upset
when Or started talking to the press and giving out
information that they had hoped would stay confidential and not

(01:29:26):
alert the arsonists that they knew this was not an
accidental fire.

Speaker 2 (01:29:32):
Quick question, Yes, why do you think he did this?

Speaker 1 (01:29:38):
Because he wasn't getting the notoriety from burning stores.

Speaker 2 (01:29:46):
No, I've been giving the information.

Speaker 1 (01:29:48):
To Oh why because I think he screwed up something
and scared he realized he screwed up and he was
going to get caught, or he thought it was going
to be very small and he didn't realize the Wines
were going to pick up and damage that much.

Speaker 2 (01:30:03):
Or do you think maybe he actually enjoyed how much
it did, or.

Speaker 1 (01:30:08):
Maybe or getting in front of the camera.

Speaker 2 (01:30:10):
People don't know it's him, but hey, it's.

Speaker 1 (01:30:14):
Just wait till you find out what he was doing
and it will all make sense next week. That's why
there's a part two, I mean, not going to part
three has been hard. So now, during the investigation, one

(01:30:35):
witness that they saw man about five foot ten with
the dark hair in khaki pants across the street right
before the fire started. Or decided to hand over the
interviews and the investigation to the local police department so
he could focus on other fires. Guys, His partner, Don

(01:30:59):
Yeager was once again not happy, okay, and he was
upset about this. Yegger felt that the fire should be
investigated by them and not the police department. I mean
police department do not know how to work fires, okay. Sadly,
despite the witness's description of a man, the lead did

(01:31:22):
not help them and the case went cold. But do
not worry people, there are still more fires to come.

Speaker 2 (01:31:31):
Oh so the surprise of no one.

Speaker 1 (01:31:35):
He's done. He hasn't done enough damage yet. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:31:38):
Now, between December nineteen ninety and March nineteen ninety one,
nineteen fires ravaged Los Angeles retail source. Two thrifty drug
stores suffered fires on the same day, with one of
the fires damaging the Bank of America doore to thrifties. Yes,

(01:32:01):
these are home videos, I mean wors home videos by
the way, in case y'all were wondering, mm hmm. Now,
several of the fires were within hours of each other
and in the same area. The pattern was identical. Bends
of foams, pillows, blankets, and plastic products were used as

(01:32:23):
a starter. Several stores were completely destroyed. The damage ran
into the millions, and dozens of employees were left jobless.
And I think that's very important to point out these
most likely weren't employees with the backup or anything like that.

(01:32:46):
These were people that it really really probably yeah, it infected,
affected their their day to day lives for sure. Now
at multiple scenes, though investigators recu for the same delayed device,
go figure, cigarettes, matches, rubber bands, and yellow paper. The

(01:33:11):
reality of these fires forced authorities to form a multi
agency task force atf LAFD and others combined resources to
catch the arsis. They now called the Pillow Pyro flyers

(01:33:32):
were circulated with details of the devices, because you should
do that. I don't think that was a good idea.

Speaker 1 (01:33:38):
But in the.

Speaker 2 (01:33:39):
Meetings, investigators began to connect the current Los Angeles spree
to the Central Valley fires of nineteen eighty seven and
the Central Coast spree of nineteen eighty eight. Amos, you
were out of control.

Speaker 1 (01:33:57):
I love it, okay, and then I love this better.
I mean a cigarette, three matches, and a rubber band.
It is the dollar tree to mistake hed it worked.
Now the Pillow Pyro task Force members were excited to

(01:34:18):
get started, and they reached out to my hero, Captain Casey.
Now the investigator was the investigator from Bakersville who had
put together this suspect list of the ten conference attendees
who had found the evidence that gave them a fingerprint.
Now Captain Casey was relieved that finally someone was listening

(01:34:41):
to him, as he laid out his full theory to
the task force and told them he believed that the
arsonist was an attendee of the fire investigation conference. He
was deflated when the task force didn't support his theory

(01:35:01):
since the ten fingerprints didn't match anyone in the Public
Safety Fingerprint database. This, I know, it really frustrates me,
it does. But I love that he stayed the course
and he did not give up on his conviction. He
did best, and that's what I love. The task Force

(01:35:23):
ran the print through COTIS again, just in case the
suspect had been arrested since the last time the print
was run. Now, the interesting thing I found about that
back then they only put prints in when you were convicted.
They ran them. But what I learned about COTIS back

(01:35:44):
in the nineties is when they started sharing all fingerprints run,
which I did not know.

Speaker 2 (01:35:51):
I didn't even know COTIS was a thing then, I'll
be honest with you. Yes, so that was impressive to
learn now, or at least I didn't remember.

Speaker 1 (01:35:59):
Yeah. Now, this time though, they also ran it through
the La County Laboratory, which also held fingerprints of all
county law enforcement officers, including anyone that had plot applied
for a job in law enforcement.

Speaker 2 (01:36:19):
You don't say, you don't say, well, it was in.
It was within the next week that the task Force
received a call from the La County Laboratory warning them
that the arson investigators needed to be more careful when
handling evidence. Hmmm, oh really, why is that?

Speaker 1 (01:36:43):
Well, D kind of like your court today. They were
going through the evidence bags without gloves and I was
losing my shit, right, I was losing And I was like, okay,
I know, ooh it's humped back crooked letter, cricket letter ara,
but no, uh uh, they needed to be wearing gloves.

Speaker 2 (01:37:07):
I agree, I agree, even it was just handling the bags.
Just to be sure.

Speaker 1 (01:37:11):
Air Force prints are government military. They are not in
codis and not in La County Public service.

Speaker 2 (01:37:19):
Oh the more you know?

Speaker 1 (01:37:22):
Did you know this? You guys adorable? Sorry, we have
the best chat ever.

Speaker 2 (01:37:30):
We're awful and I love it now Okay, So the
lab technician had run the print through the databases and
discovered that the print on the piece of paper belonged
to a member of the Glendelle Fire Department, and he
suspected the evidence had been contaminated because of course, why

(01:37:55):
why wouldn't if that just been the case, I'm.

Speaker 1 (01:37:58):
You wouldn't want to go to the worst scenario. They're
not like us. They don't instantly go full brottle.

Speaker 2 (01:38:06):
To the worst, I think, and well, at this time, anyway,
the print matched the highly respected fire investigator John Or,
because of course it did. The Task Force was like, great,
Vera goes are one lead because stop, surely this couldn't

(01:38:29):
be couldn't be it.

Speaker 1 (01:38:31):
I mean I just have to say, is Or trying
to look adorable sexy? Is this like his version of
a farming calendar?

Speaker 2 (01:38:45):
Oh my gosh, you got our monds are out of control.

Speaker 1 (01:38:49):
They guys, do not change. I love you all, Okay, okay,
see Sammy also did a face plant today watching them
touch the evidence.

Speaker 2 (01:39:01):
Oh you all saw my face When they brought out
that kind of counterfeit money.

Speaker 1 (01:39:05):
He fucking grabbed it. I was like, I was yelling. Yeah,
I was yelling, and I said something when the dentist
was having me sit for a minute and he goes,
did you say something, I'm like, yeah, they're not wearing gloves,
and he just looked at me and I was like, nevermind.

Speaker 3 (01:39:23):
So so, when Captain Casey found out about the match,
he informed the Task Force that it could not have
been a contamination issue, as John Orr had not reported
to the scene in Bakersfield where the finger print was found.

Speaker 2 (01:39:46):
Oh yes, did you see hello monkey butt, Hello monkey?

Speaker 1 (01:39:55):
Have you in your volleyball game tonight? Yes, I hope
you one tonight. I haven't been on the time you
to find out. So, and just so you know, monkey
butt Lama, it's her birthday week. She's going to be forty,
see her tiara in her sash, So send her lots
yes of birthday loves. Yes.

Speaker 2 (01:40:17):
But I heard you doing great in volleyball and we're
all rooting for you, I promise every Thursday.

Speaker 1 (01:40:20):
Oh they did win.

Speaker 2 (01:40:22):
Yeah, good job, Monkey bub Or.

Speaker 1 (01:40:25):
So she's also in band. Are y'all learning how to
play the Nightmare before Christmas? Because if you are, we're
gonna need to hear it.

Speaker 2 (01:40:36):
That's true.

Speaker 1 (01:40:38):
Okay. Now, what Captain Gacy found puzzling was the fact
that Orr's fingerprint had been checked back in nineteen eighty
nine when they checked public safety employees fingerprints and it
was not a match. So he was like, how did

(01:40:58):
that happen? But before we get into that, okay, I
know y'all perform tomorrow night and we are leaving to
go to California. But on a good news, I'm seeing
your brother this weekend. I'll be sure to take pictures

(01:41:20):
with them. But y'all are going to do great at
the game. I am so sad. But before we get
into how that happened, I want to talk a little
bit about how Or's name made the list. Okay, Or
attended both the nineteen eighty seven and the nineteen eighty
nine conference, and that based on where his residence was,

(01:41:41):
he would have had to travel along the highways where
the fires were started in both eighty seven and eighty nine.

Speaker 2 (01:41:50):
Interesting.

Speaker 1 (01:41:51):
He also added order the list because he knew an
arsonist would want to be solo in. Or had not
taken his wife to either conference, unlike others.

Speaker 2 (01:42:04):
Hmmm, interesting. Interesting indeed, So how did Or's fingerprint get
missed in nineteen eighty nine, Well, you guys, it's actually
it's pretty simple, all right, because back when ors fingerprints
were put into the employee database, the technology wasn't what

(01:42:26):
it was in nineteen ninety one. No, it was like
some guy in a room with one of those jewelry
things being like, I think, I think, so, I don't know,
that's what he was doing, and the technician had made
an air when doing a manual comparison. His air caused
Or not to be identified earlier. Now, the task force

(01:42:51):
was in shock, to say the least. You know, it
wasn't a shock freaking Captain Casey.

Speaker 1 (01:42:55):
He was like, no, shit, right, my boyfriend, Captain Casey. Yeah,
I hope he's not married because his wife's gonna not
be happy with me. I say, boyfriend and the fact
that I'm fangirling over him because he was smart and
nobody listened to him. I'm happily married, and I will
be happy to take you and him to dinner.

Speaker 2 (01:43:17):
Oh right, oh right now. It was hard to imagine
or wrap your head around the idea that a well
respected arson investigator, trainer, and fire captain could be a
serial arsonist. But as we can all imagine, this revelation
had to be handled and investigated discreetly, right, I mean,

(01:43:42):
a man's entire career is on the line here. You
better be sure and the faith of the public.

Speaker 1 (01:43:49):
What's your point care? What's your point?

Speaker 2 (01:43:54):
He would share arrangements, would share her entanglements.

Speaker 1 (01:43:59):
I can just add I could add him to my
safe one. Okay, I'm not the only one that heard
her say captain instead of captain, it's always cap I
heard it. I was like, no, you're just used to
hearing that. No, it's not all hot and bothered thinking
about that whoa.

Speaker 2 (01:44:18):
I'm you need to calm down, all right, Kayla.

Speaker 1 (01:44:21):
Time to go to bed now.

Speaker 2 (01:44:23):
John Orr was considered an esteemed member of the firefighting community,
a man who had built his reputation on pursuing arsonists
and protecting the public. Many of his peers had attended
his training seminars, finding his insights into the psychology and
behaviors of fire setters invaluable. I mean, I'm sure it was.

(01:44:49):
I am sure it was invaluable. Now Or was especially
admired for what seemed like a sixth sense, if you will,
an uncanny ability to detect evidence at arsen sights that
even seasoned investigators overlooked, Like yeah, of lady and Gray,

(01:45:14):
I mean, if you've stopped and.

Speaker 1 (01:45:18):
A lot of police officers try to get in the
minds of a killer, John Orr was in the mind
of an arsenist because he was an arsenist.

Speaker 2 (01:45:30):
Yeah, I feel like all this started to start way before.

Speaker 1 (01:45:32):
Then, but oh yeah, so yeah, we'll talk about that
next week now. Colleagues often remarked that he could determine
the cause of a fire faster than most frequently low
dedicating in sceninary devices with remarkable ease. Yeah, because he
set the people anyway, I don't look at it when

(01:45:59):
flames erupted, or had a tendency to appear quickly, sometimes
even before the first responders arrived. Not good John. It
was no surprise to anyone that he showed up at
scenes while off duty as well, driven by an eagerness
to investigate. Yet in hindsight, the very qualities that set

(01:46:24):
him apart also raised quiet suspicion. His relentless presence at fires,
his swift conclusion, and his apparent instinct for uncovering hidden
clues seemed at times to be precise maybe coincidence, quinky inks.

(01:46:46):
Still without hard evidence, members of the task force recognized
the risk of letting speculation guide them. Guys, I will
let it guide me. Just don't worry about it. I
will put my name on the line and I will
say he did it. Okay, I'm willing to go out
there on that lamb. So, for all they knew, then,

(01:47:08):
the oddities surrounding John Orr could just as easily have
been explained as the habits of an exceptionally dedicated fire investigator.

Speaker 2 (01:47:19):
Mm hmm. For the Pillow Pyro Task Force, love the name.
I just want to say you don't see very many
good task force names, but I enjoyed the Pillow Pyro
Task Force anyway. For the Pillow Pyro Task Force, identifying
their prime suspect was only one milestone, but transforming that

(01:47:43):
suspicion into a full scale investigation, oh and eventually an
arrest Spoilers was an entirely different challenge. Because of the
seriousness of allegations against John Orr. The United States Attorney's Office.
That's all right, the big dogs here quickly become involved,

(01:48:07):
and trust me, you do not want them involves.

Speaker 1 (01:48:09):
You don't want it at all.

Speaker 2 (01:48:10):
It's bad newspaars.

Speaker 1 (01:48:11):
You don't want it. You don't.

Speaker 2 (01:48:13):
You ain't beating it. Okay, it ain't happening. Their goal
was to establish an air tight chain of evidence that
could withstand scrutiny in court and support the most compelling
case possible. Prosecuting a California fire official for setting the

(01:48:34):
very blazes he was sworn to prevent was no ordinary undertaking.
It was a high profile criminal case that demanded meticulous
attention to detail because what would the public think, you know,
and just needed to be right about this.

Speaker 1 (01:48:56):
Just a reminder that took four lives is still considered
an accident at this point in time, which is crazy fine,
and I mean that's the thing that I can't wrap
my head around that at this point you're not going, oh, well,
I think we missed what you know. Now. Although Or's

(01:49:20):
fingerprints found on an incedinary device was damning, the attorney's
office knew it wasn't enough to carry the weight of
their prosecution. That single print tied him exclusively to the
nineteen eighty seven craft marked fire in Bakersfield, but investigators

(01:49:41):
and all of us strongly suspect his involvement stretch way
beyond that. Okay, The distinct signature AMO is how they
called it, used in the blaze suggested Or could be
responsible for countless other arson attacks, including the death the
Stating fire outbreak in Los Angeles, the Central Valley spree

(01:50:04):
of nineteen eighty seven, and the Central Coast spree of
nineteen eighty nine. Each of these incidents bore hallmarks of
the same calculated fire setting style, yet linking them definitely
to Or would require evidence. Can't just have circumstantial.

Speaker 2 (01:50:25):
Guys, not in a case like this.

Speaker 1 (01:50:28):
I mean, and not back in the nineties. I mean,
and I mean.

Speaker 2 (01:50:33):
I've heard that urson investigation is a tricky area of investigation,
if you will. So I can't imagine how much difficult
it would be during this timeframe, because it's still difficult
now in oh yeah, twenty twenty five. So now, Recognizing

(01:50:54):
both the gravity and sensitivity of the case, the US
Attorney's Office arranged a confidential meeting with ores Immediate Server
Supervisor Battillion, Chief Christopher Gray. His hair? You heard me?

Speaker 1 (01:51:10):
What did you say? You heard?

Speaker 2 (01:51:12):
We're moving on, Terry Battalion, mind my words?

Speaker 1 (01:51:18):
Also, why is part of slide? What is that? I'm
not sure what is going on here.

Speaker 2 (01:51:30):
Anyway, Christopher Gray looking good there.

Speaker 1 (01:51:33):
Look at all that gray hair.

Speaker 2 (01:51:35):
Battalion? Is it not Battalion? What did I say?

Speaker 1 (01:51:38):
Battillion?

Speaker 2 (01:51:40):
All right?

Speaker 1 (01:51:40):
You know what? I thought it was adorable because normally
it's me that can't say it's say motion to scream.
Wants you to say it again? You said it. It
was adorable.

Speaker 2 (01:51:53):
Anyway, So Chief Christopher Gray, uh, it brought to his attention.

Speaker 1 (01:51:58):
Now.

Speaker 2 (01:51:59):
In that meeting, they delivered the shocking news his top
ar is an investigator, the man celebrated for solving some
of the state's toughest fire cases was now the focus
of the pillow pyro probe. And that's not a shut
up amus, You're fired. I'm firing everybody today.

Speaker 1 (01:52:22):
Okay to me, can I say that Captain? Do you
see what she titled Battalion Chief Grays picture.

Speaker 2 (01:52:33):
Lady and who's so highlighted on the on the Is
this your man?

Speaker 1 (01:52:42):
I mean, is this your brother? Is this your man?
I need the deats because Captain says it's a lady
and who you guys?

Speaker 2 (01:52:50):
Yes, right there, it is right there, it is. Captain
is a label genius when it comes to ours.

Speaker 1 (01:53:00):
I want her to label my funeral service pictures, not
my kids will just be falling on the floor. I
don't have any relatives that like me, but hopefully a
few friends will show up. We'll be there as long
as we can party. Oh absolutely, here's been wine served.

Speaker 2 (01:53:21):
Do you remember this tomorrow night? Okay, just keep that
in back in your mind for tomorrow. I know Gilly
P's not here talking about her face, but anyway, now
back to this story, all right. So, at the same time,
federal prosecutors caution Gray that much investigative work still lay ahead,

(01:53:45):
and a rest was not imminent and building a case
strong enough to convict John Orr. Would take patience, precision,
in time, and if you know anything about the Feds,
they got a whole lot of those three things.

Speaker 1 (01:54:00):
Okay, let's come after you.

Speaker 2 (01:54:03):
They put in a lot of patient's precision and dime.

Speaker 1 (01:54:08):
So now, although Ors, is it what battillion I think?
Shall we say it? Sorry? Although Ors Battalion chief initially
refused to believe the allegations, he nevertheless agreed to provide
whatever sistance he could. I just have to say, Battalion
Chief Gray, the fact that your first instinct was to

(01:54:30):
protect your man and have his back. I respect that.
And I like the fact that you said, you know what,
I'm still going to give you what assistance. Maybe I'm wrong,
I respect that, Okay, Okay. So he handed over call
out sheets and phone records from the Glendell Fire Department,

(01:54:52):
hoping they might shed light on OARS activities. Gray also
revealed that John Orr was scheduled to attend and a
five day peace officer safety training course in San Louis
Obispo at the end of the month. To the US
Attorney's office. This detail was heart breaking. Excuse me, it

(01:55:17):
was a breakthrough. Not heartbreaking, okay, and well it becomes heartbreaking.
But a multi day training course John would be away
from his department. In history suggested that such occasions were
prime opportunities for the pillow Piro to strike again.

Speaker 2 (01:55:38):
And that's right, I mean two conventions already and guess
what happened. Surely this would happen a third time. Right, No, girl,
I know.

Speaker 1 (01:55:49):
Now.

Speaker 2 (01:55:50):
On the morning of April twenty eighth, nineteen ninety one,
just one day before the training was set to begin,
John Orris set out or San Luis Obispo, the coastal
city nestled roughly halfway between Los Angeles and San Francisco.
I see what I did there? Never mind, probably not.

(01:56:12):
He had no idea that investigators were prepared for him
and watching him. That's right, eyes on, mister or there's
some ATF surveillance video for you.

Speaker 1 (01:56:26):
I look that.

Speaker 2 (01:56:27):
This is the nineties.

Speaker 1 (01:56:28):
Imagine the biggest camera.

Speaker 2 (01:56:35):
Even though the camera is half the size of a
human being.

Speaker 1 (01:56:38):
Yeah, you can't see us.

Speaker 2 (01:56:41):
Secret now. A tracking device had been planted beneath his car,
and a massive surveillance operation shadowed his every move. Six
unmarked vehicles, a fixed wing aircraft air fucking around and

(01:57:02):
a team of undercover agents still tailing him was no
easy feat. Once or hit the freeway, he practiced being
Mario Andrew because, of course, of course he did. Okay,
wait that name again, Andretti. It says Indrotti, but we

(01:57:26):
pronounced it Mario and Mario Androtti. No, not in Ohio.
I'm sorry, you're wrong.

Speaker 1 (01:57:32):
Okay, I'm a Texas girl, but that is Mario Androtti.

Speaker 2 (01:57:35):
It is literally the only way I've heard his name pronounced.

Speaker 1 (01:57:39):
Ever. That's right, hyo, y'all. Also, Mario Andretti, you also
have black eyed piece of some college mascot, so you're
fine going honestly, guy, I thought that was his name.
I'm not.

Speaker 2 (01:57:53):
That's literally how I've always heard it, Mario Andretti.

Speaker 1 (01:57:57):
Mario Andretti is how it is, just people. I was
gaslighting you, honey, and you fell for it.

Speaker 2 (01:58:05):
You know what? This is why I don't drink tequila
in public.

Speaker 1 (01:58:10):
Hairy, you all can't be trusted. Your clothes are still on,
so you were fine. We say Andretti too. I was
just gaslighting you and you fell for it.

Speaker 2 (01:58:23):
I mean, honestly, it should be Andreatti. If you see
the way it's.

Speaker 1 (01:58:27):
Say, Sammy, he's a NASCAR guy.

Speaker 2 (01:58:29):
He's not a Nascar guy. I know he's not a
Nascar guy.

Speaker 1 (01:58:36):
He's a Prala guy in me, yes, because he's a
Patrick Dempsey level Patrick, like the actor Patrick Dempsey drives
Formula cars. Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (01:58:49):
Yeah, no shit, I didn't know that.

Speaker 1 (01:58:51):
Oh my god. He does the thing in Paris where
they go over the thing, Bob.

Speaker 2 (01:58:57):
Why did you come out to look at me?

Speaker 1 (01:58:58):
Out he goes the Monaco.

Speaker 2 (01:59:00):
Oh okay, really I did not know that about Oh
my god.

Speaker 1 (01:59:04):
Him and his wife almost got divorced for that, besides cheating.
But yeah, because he slept with me.

Speaker 2 (01:59:11):
I'm sorry, Amy, just put in our notes a Mario
and draw you were out of control. This is what
happens when I don't talk dame as for a whole week.
She apparently has a freakin' life. She's out of control.
And I do see her again now. Anyway, he's being

(01:59:32):
Mario and Dretty, Okay, dodging through traffic in LA somehow,
I imagine traffic in LA was just as bad during
this time as it is now. Anyway, So despite his
reckless driving, though, the tracker showed he made it directly
to his hotel without any suspicious detours. The task force

(01:59:56):
began thinking maybe we made a mistake, but they had
to say the course. I mean, did he get a
hints up? You think.

Speaker 1 (02:00:07):
I don't know?

Speaker 2 (02:00:09):
I don't know either.

Speaker 1 (02:00:12):
Now. The next night, one of the task force members
followed Or into a thrifty drug store, and they had
to keep an eye on him as he went through
the entire store, and they did not want to be detected.
The agent stayed back as Or checked out at the
front of the store.

Speaker 2 (02:00:31):
But they were open twenty four hours. Sorry, that's impressive
for that time, is all I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (02:00:36):
Okay, amos. She is now changing the words in the
spelling on the notes store. Okay. So once Or left
the store, the agent got a copy of the receipt

(02:00:57):
so that he could verify Or's purchase. Or didn't purchase anything, crazy, guys,
just two packs of Marlboro Lights cigarettes.

Speaker 2 (02:01:05):
Yeah, which is fine in the eighties and nineties.

Speaker 1 (02:01:08):
That's to them, of course, this purchase was not normal
and got them excited because guys, to the best of
their knowledge, Or was not a smoker. I mean, I
would think a firefighter smoking. I would find that to
be an oxymoron, just saying. But it was the eighties

(02:01:31):
or nineties. I oh, she is being honory ornery ornery.
So this is not instantly a red flag for me,
because what if he only smoked when he was away
from his wife at a conference and stuff. Yeah, I

(02:01:51):
have to be honest. I go to my besties house, Cheryl,
she smokes. I've been known to steal a cigarette or two. Okay. Now, However,
the task Fars felt different. They saw this purchase as
a big deal. They continued tracking ors every move over

(02:02:13):
the remaining training days.

Speaker 2 (02:02:20):
Oh my gosh, we are to throw people off, Sam, right,
I know.

Speaker 1 (02:02:28):
So it's true, not a spot. They were just waiting
for him to strike again, which guess what.

Speaker 2 (02:02:38):
He didn't strike. It's not that's my brand, lucky strike.

Speaker 1 (02:02:45):
What's that sponsor? Okay? We sponsor our boro Okay. Now.
John was headed to his car on his last day
of training when we stopped at his car and bent
down to look under the back end. Guys, there was
no fires during this time, but the Task Force members

(02:03:08):
who were following him begin to panic as they saw
or looking under the car at the tracking device they
had placed there. They were like, shit, he knows someone
is following him? Yeah, I mean, didn't they have air

(02:03:34):
tags back then? Okay, guys, what is a Lucky Strike?

Speaker 2 (02:03:38):
It's a brand of cigarettes.

Speaker 1 (02:03:40):
Oh okay, I did not know that. I'm sorry. Okay,
I was just wondering where all those Lucky Strikes were
coming from. Identify the smoker's chest Ockay, does anyone smoke
clothes cigarettes?

Speaker 2 (02:03:57):
That's the only time we're all grown adults?

Speaker 1 (02:04:01):
Sorry? What the fuck? I'm sorry? Are you saying adults
do not smoke clothes cigarettes?

Speaker 2 (02:04:12):
That's exactly what I'm saying. I never met an adult
that wasn't in high school or the early cult before there.

Speaker 1 (02:04:19):
Guess what. I smoked one in July at Catherine's birthday
party because the DJ had some at Gillies, and I
went up and flirted and he gave me one, and
double H was okay with it? Motion distream, I called, so,
do you smoke clothes? If so, we can be besties
and just leave all these life the.

Speaker 2 (02:04:41):
Only two adults in all the world.

Speaker 1 (02:04:47):
Oh, I'm done.

Speaker 2 (02:04:50):
I love you, guys, even if.

Speaker 1 (02:04:51):
I love you, go on, Oh my god, here we go.

Speaker 2 (02:04:57):
Oh is it my turn? Okay? Two of shocked.

Speaker 1 (02:05:02):
Amos.

Speaker 2 (02:05:03):
Now it's not the time to play games. Two of
their shock Or didn't do anything. He just stood back
and got into his car, which is very weird when
you think something's going on with your car. But okay,
the team followed him and got another shock when Or
drove straight to the San Luis Obispo Police Department.

Speaker 1 (02:05:30):
Mm hmmm.

Speaker 2 (02:05:31):
Or went inside and the task Force members waited in
their vehicles until Or left them.

Speaker 1 (02:05:46):
So any knew people who are listening to this, We're
not always the sunhinge. But let me just say, Mama's
been on camera all day. It is our Truthday week,
and I have now had half a bottle of a
Pino noir, so I have been ams. I mean, if

(02:06:08):
you're not here for this insanity, we're probably not the
people you want to listen to, because guess what, We're
gonna have horores and wars all night long.

Speaker 2 (02:06:15):
Hors and wars. What a birthday for me? Oh my gosh,
I don't know what that means.

Speaker 1 (02:06:21):
But your hor is gonna show up soon.

Speaker 2 (02:06:23):
E motion.

Speaker 1 (02:06:24):
This is literally the best. If you guys saw our notes,
oh man, anyway, let me start. So Or left the poor.

Speaker 2 (02:06:38):
Oh my goodness. They then went to walk to sorry
compose myself. They then went to talk to lieutenant on
duty to inquire about Or's visit. You see, Or didn't
think it was a tracking device like a normal person. No, Instead,
he thought it was a bomb. Because if I think

(02:07:03):
there's a bomb on my car, I know I'm going
to drive it around everywhere.

Speaker 3 (02:07:11):
I know what that was my thought.

Speaker 1 (02:07:14):
I'm like, who gets in a car it's because it's
a bomb and drives it somewhere to the police and
you call the police.

Speaker 2 (02:07:28):
Oh, this is gonna be a very long and side joke.

Speaker 1 (02:07:32):
Okay, happen No, no, no, no to it in the show.
M hmm, yeah, who would do that? That to me
is sus I think.

Speaker 2 (02:07:50):
I think honestly at this point, he's he knows he's
being followed and he's playing games with them. That's what
I think is going on, because no respectable person who's
in the field he's in is gonna fuck around and
find out with the bomb on the car. Okay, I wouldn't, No, no,

(02:08:14):
not at all. Can I get a highlight because I
went on a ramp there? Oh okay. The lieutenant wanted
to call the bomb squad to come there to the station,
but Or, as a firefighter, knew the damage a bomb
could do, and instead he would drive it to the

(02:08:36):
closest bomb disposable unit, which was only a couple miles away.
How do you dispose of a bomb that's on a car?
Isn't the whole car a bomb? I don't know? While
was driving and he got back, okay, So he stops
at the police, right He's like, I think I got

(02:08:58):
a bomb in my There was a disposal site and
they're like, well, I don't know, you better drive it
to this another place because I'm getting back in a
vehicle that I think, what if it's a speed situation?

Speaker 1 (02:09:11):
Speed was not out yet a hero?

Speaker 2 (02:09:17):
That sounds silly to me anyway, So he drives it
to this disposable unit.

Speaker 1 (02:09:22):
With the world.

Speaker 2 (02:09:27):
The task force called the unit and filled the orificer.
It doesn't say that, but I added it who answered
in on their investigation. The officer agreed to help the
task force, So that's very I don't know. I think
he knows he was being tailed the entire time.

Speaker 1 (02:09:49):
So I don't know about that, but I know there
was a movie I don't remember who the actor was,
but there was a bomb in an ambulance. Instead of
letting the bomb squad come, he drove it to the
bomb disposal site because he was a cop, because he

(02:10:11):
didn't want innocent people to be hurt.

Speaker 2 (02:10:14):
Okay, you think that was kay?

Speaker 1 (02:10:17):
Eye roll was serious. Okay, Well, what's the.

Speaker 2 (02:10:23):
The there's the Rock movie. It's named after Son Andreas.

Speaker 1 (02:10:29):
Oh have you ever seen what is the movie? Son Andreas?

Speaker 2 (02:10:34):
I have not.

Speaker 1 (02:10:35):
Okay, I have to look because I can do me
some rock.

Speaker 2 (02:10:40):
Okay, But in this movie, the rock drives every vehicle
you can imagine, all right, every single one, including air ones.
Any vehicle you can imagine, the rock drives, okay, but
in this movie, the rock cannot land any of these vehicles.

Speaker 1 (02:11:01):
Ever.

Speaker 2 (02:11:02):
It's hilarious and amazing.

Speaker 1 (02:11:05):
Thank you, lady and Gray. It was my chocolate lover
who drove it to Central Park, so you're real, absolutely right, hey,
it was real. Okay. Now, upon arriving at the desporsal.

Speaker 2 (02:11:22):
Side you get, speaking of rock, can I tell you
a quick side note? So elbow feet Grandma, Okay, she's
she's in her eighties at least, I don't know exactly
how old she is. But she's definitely in her eighties
and ninetyes. She's amazing, Dorothy. I want to grow up

(02:11:43):
and be like Dorothy. I really do. So we were
at a wedding for his brother's wedding in June, right,
and we're all sitting at a table. But I noticed
a phone was left at the table and a bunch
of people were missing, and I was like, oh, my god,
who's one? Is this right? And I look at it.
In the background of the phone is a picture of
the Rock, a very suggestive pictures.

Speaker 1 (02:12:06):
I love the Rock, if you will, right.

Speaker 2 (02:12:09):
So then, uh, missus Dorothy comes to our table and
she was like, oh, there's my phone. And I was like,
excuse me, Dorthy, Dorothy, what do you mean this is
your phone? The background of your phone is the Rock?
And she looks at me straight faced. She was like, yeah,
and that's my boyfriend. Oh Dorothy, love you, Dorothy. You're amazing.

Speaker 1 (02:12:37):
Okay, I love that. And I have to say the
great thing my grandmother, Yes, Dwayne Johnson the Rock. Hello,
is there another rock? Sorry, we're not talking about Rocky. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:12:53):
I think she had a picture of dad. Oh oh
so then okay, that was at the wedding all right.
A couple weeks later is the fourth that you love.
We go to Breton's parents' house and I see a
car there I don't really recognize, okay, and on the
back they have a decal of Deadpool all right, riding
a Ynicorn. We're huge Marvel Deadpool nerds. Okay, it's a

(02:13:16):
younger kid. It's not everybody's favorite, right, And I'm assuming
that must be his brother's new wife because I don't
really see her. Well whatever, I assume that's her because
why not, right, So we go into the house and
nobody's there but his parents and lovely Miss Dorothy. We're like, oh,

(02:13:40):
we thought so and so was here and they're like no.
Dorothy like is like, that's my car, and we're like
with the Deadpool thing, and.

Speaker 1 (02:13:49):
She was like, yeah, I love Deadpool. Oh my god,
I love that.

Speaker 2 (02:13:58):
I am obsessed with. I'm moving together for you know,
thirteen years now.

Speaker 1 (02:14:02):
Okay, I need to meet Dorothy next time I come
to visit because I want to be her now. I
just while we're on a side note, the reason I
say chocolate lover. I will never forget the day that
my mother looked at me and I can never say
his name, Sydney Portier. I think how you say? Yes?

(02:14:26):
My mom, he came up on TV and she was like, oh,
that is chocolate that could melt all over me. Huh,
And I'm talking, I'm in my forties. And I look
at her and I said, excuse me. She goes, oh yeah,
and there wouldn't be any left lick off. Oh oh, my's.

(02:14:51):
And that's why I call Schmarmore my chocolate lover, because
my yes, and I have Sidney Poortier melt on her.
I can have Scham arrow More, Derek Moorean, whatever he
wants me to cast him. Oh, I can add hard
to say names to my repertoire. I can even say repertoire.

Speaker 2 (02:15:14):
Oh.

Speaker 1 (02:15:16):
Now, Once he arrived at that disposal site, Or informed
the officer that he thought there was a bomb in
his car, and the officer looked under the car, removed
the item and told Or that it was just a harmless,
fake explosive and that most likely some kids looking for

(02:15:36):
a thrill placed it on his car.

Speaker 2 (02:15:40):
What kind of excuses that I'd be like, what the
fuck do you mean? This is not some harm.

Speaker 1 (02:15:44):
No, it's California. Yes, So Or was not convinced, and
the officer agreed to send the fake bomb to the
LAP to confirm it was fake. Or then agreed, but
first he took several pictures of the device, including the numbers,
which would lead the task force to realize Or did

(02:16:07):
not buy that whole fake bomb story, and they were
worried that he would track the devis back to the ATF. Yeah,
you need to do a better job of sticking it. Now,
Or got back in his car and went to his
final day of training. Now, the task force was able

(02:16:29):
to gain entry into Ors hotel room on that last day,
and they did not find any evidence that he had
smoked any cigarettes in his room, and since they had
been watching him, they had never seen him take a
cigarette break, leaving them more convinced that he bought the
cigarettes to start more fires.

Speaker 2 (02:16:51):
Yeah, that's real suspicious.

Speaker 1 (02:16:54):
I mean maybe he bought them there so he wouldn't
get seen locally. I don't know. Lady and Greg.

Speaker 2 (02:17:01):
He was like, we'd whack a hot he was hot,
We'd whack a hunt.

Speaker 1 (02:17:08):
Honey. He could make me sin and go to confessional
on Sunday.

Speaker 2 (02:17:12):
Jamar more, please come on a guest show. Jamar more anyway. Okay,
so the task force got another surprise when Or's wife
showed up on the final afternoon of the training surprise.

(02:17:33):
They suspected that Or would not be starting any fires
while he was spending time with his wife, but they
stayed the course and followed the couple everywhere over the
next few days. Maybe you think he called her and
was like, hey, babe, why don't you come up. I
think this would be great, just to fuck with the
people trailer I do.

Speaker 1 (02:17:55):
I think they were having marital issues and she wanted
to go, and that's why he bought the cigarettes, and
he didn't start any fires because he knew she was
coming up.

Speaker 2 (02:18:08):
I don't know. Maybe that could be either or.

Speaker 1 (02:18:11):
Or separate cars going home.

Speaker 2 (02:18:15):
That's true. That's true, So his wife comes up. They
stayed the course, the investigators and followed the couple everywhere
over the next few days. The task force was, of
course frustrated when Or returned home without any new fires.
They also were panicked because they feared Or had realized

(02:18:39):
it was a tracking device and that he was being watched.
And it's my personal opinion. I have nothing to base
this off of, but I think the same thing. I
think he did know that he was being watched, so
wanted a divorce. That's what I was wondering too. I
don't know how we got here, but that's what I thought.

Speaker 1 (02:19:00):
Well, guys, I have good news for you. Yes, this
is where we will stop for this week because I
know it is. I mean, this has been two hours
and twenty minutes of insanity and we have probably lost
every subscriber and follower we have after this insanity, and

(02:19:20):
I'm like, you know what, it's okay. We have fun
and we love it. But guys, next week we are
going to continue the Pillow Pyro Part two. We're going
to dive deep into his arrest, the trial, the aftermath,
and the psyacology because the thing that you guys need

(02:19:45):
to understand. And I thought I had a good handle
on arsonist psychology, I actually learned some things. And it
took me longer to write and do research for part
two because I learned so many new things that they
have learned since all of this happened about firefighters Arsonist psychology.

(02:20:14):
It is a little bit different than just your normal arsonist.

Speaker 2 (02:20:18):
And that is true.

Speaker 1 (02:20:19):
I find fascinating so motioned this is I'm glad you
think that. Thank you, We are so glad. Oh boy.

Speaker 2 (02:20:30):
But mess, we are in the same area they wanted
to get intel, but also made a mess trying to
throw them off. Maybe so, yeah, I mean maybe so.

Speaker 1 (02:20:39):
Shown he's not so smart, makes me realize why I
didn't pass the police academy. Sam. Okay, yeah, now, so
next week will not be as long okay thing either,
but here we are. It might be, but it will

(02:21:02):
be the last. Next Thursday will be the last time
y'all see me on camera for three weeks.

Speaker 2 (02:21:08):
Which is even more reason why it'll be later. But
join us next week for more see what we did there. Yes,
leave all of your orer pun comments in the comments
section because I love puns. I love puns so much.
In case you couldn't tell, tonight, I do a lot.

Speaker 1 (02:21:29):
Join us for.

Speaker 2 (02:21:30):
Four two next Thursday, after his fortieth birthday.

Speaker 1 (02:21:35):
Seat.

Speaker 2 (02:21:36):
I mean, come on, it's hilarious. It writes yourself and
you guys again, we're not laughing at the devastating fires
and the dusts that it costs. We're laughing at John
Orr because John Orr is a piece of shit. Okay,
so we're making fun of him. Abecifically not necessarily his crimes,
which some people have a difficulty understanding.

Speaker 1 (02:21:59):
But besides the people he killed, the property damage, the
people's homes, childhood photos, that's so important. Everything he also
destroyed and hurt his wife and his children. I mean,
I agree this sky caused so.

Speaker 2 (02:22:23):
Many problems or is gonna have to replace its haslog?

Speaker 1 (02:22:30):
I agree. I can't wait. No, how long until I
don't know, we're gonna have to put them together.

Speaker 2 (02:22:37):
No, this definitely caused long lasting drama for a lot
of people. You know, when fires happened, people are like, well,
it's just things, but those things can be very sentimental,
important things. For example, I can't picture stuff in my head.
I have apantasia. I have no visual memories whatsoever. I

(02:22:58):
can't close my eyes and even picture my own kid's face.
It doesn't work that way. So a fire to take
all of the photos I have would be absolutely devastating.
I know some people think that it is just things,
but it can be a lot, a lot more of priceless.

Speaker 1 (02:23:19):
Some of those families did not have fire insurance because
fire insurance is very expensive in California, and it's also
the eighties and nineties for Pete's sake. But you know, so,
not only did they lose everything, they didn't have money
to rebuild. And let's not forget the sweet little baby

(02:23:40):
and the people died because of this man. I mean,
he should be sitting in the smallest gel cell. Yes, yes,
so give me your clothes and thoughts.

Speaker 2 (02:23:56):
All right, closing thoughts one. I have a a lot
of questions, because of course I do, but I'm pretty
sure that they're all going to be answered in part two,
or most of them of this story. Be sure you
watch this next week for part two, because I'm pretty
sure that's where a lot of my answers lie. But

(02:24:17):
I just want to say I've said this before when
we are covering Thomas Sweat. I find arsonists to be
very fascinating to learn about. I don't love what they do,
but why they do what they do is very very interesting.
And you might be thinking like, oh, this must be

(02:24:39):
a one off case of a firefire being an arsonist,
but oh no, turns out no, there are approximately one
hundred arrest per year of firefighter arson. Okay, yes, firefire
are one hundred a year, and there are all sorts

(02:25:03):
of prevention groups pamphlets, photocol or protocols, studies everything about
this very subject. It's a very real problem. Even to
this day, even before John pillowpyro or, this has been
a very big problem. And it's not even close to

(02:25:26):
being a new phenomenon. I know a lot of people
to be like, well, today things there are so much more. No,
it's always been around, always, uh, for a very long time.
And it's a fascinating rabbit hole to go down a
firefighter arsonists, It really really is. But I think we're obviously,

(02:25:47):
as Terry said, we're gonna explore more of the psychology
of that with part two next Thursday, and you guys
don't wanna, don't want to miss it because it's it's
really truly I don't understand it, I'll be honest, but donascinating.

Speaker 1 (02:26:05):
Either in going down the rabbit hole of psychology reading
stories about firefighters who became arsonists who never had the
tendencies because of PTSD and trauma. I mean, it's it's great.
It's I mean not great.

Speaker 2 (02:26:25):
Well, it's it's like Munchausen by pros, right, it's usually
women with their children. I feel like this is kind
of the similar thing, right.

Speaker 1 (02:26:37):
I mean, and that's why it is so fascinating to me.
It is so fascinating now, guys, this story hits me
on so many levels. If y'all couldn't tell. And the
reason I picked it. I grew up being told that firefighters,
like police officers, are the people who will save us
in who can trust us. My favorite aunt, Hollie, who

(02:27:01):
I spent summers with her husband, my uncle Red, was
a fire captain. My family's full of law enforcement and stuff,
so I grew up that if you need something, or
you need a safe person, you go to a firefighter,
a cop, or a priest.

Speaker 2 (02:27:19):
And you should still should. Don't let bad apples, and
you still should.

Speaker 1 (02:27:23):
But this does make you stop and think that you
need to still be a little cautious now, John, Or
could a young kid have gone to him for help? Yes,
you would have been safe. You know. He just liked
to set fires, Okay, But to me to learn that
someone who wore the firefighter's uniform, who trained others was respected,

(02:27:50):
and that secretly he was one of the most prolific
arsonists is not only shocking, it is devastating to my
little lego. I'm going to be honest, it's it is
hard to comprehend because he took an oath to protect us. Yeah,
and yet he was setting fires and destroying property. I

(02:28:13):
do not think he set out to intentionally kill anyone.

Speaker 2 (02:28:17):
I don't think so either.

Speaker 1 (02:28:18):
Yes, what your actions made you a.

Speaker 2 (02:28:22):
Murderer, And I will say I don't think he actually
intended to kill anyone. I didn't really don't because so
many after that fire didn't turn into big things, right,
And I really do believe.

Speaker 1 (02:28:37):
That was I think he felt it back.

Speaker 2 (02:28:39):
I really really do that they were made to not
be what happened at a lead captain.

Speaker 1 (02:28:46):
He did keep going after and I think the reason
is because at that point, to me, it was an addiction,
and once you light that internal fire, so to speak,
he needed that. I think that it was a drug.
He needed it.

Speaker 2 (02:29:05):
Common for our senates are fascinating to learn about because
things apply to them that don't necessarily apply to other
people of crime, let alone. Firefighter at arsenists are even
more fascinating too.

Speaker 1 (02:29:23):
And to me, it's even worse that he's in California
because they already have severe wildflowers. You know, if it
would be somebody in Ohio or Montana, it probably wouldn't
have been as shocking to me, but California tries so
hard to minimize fires. They spend a lot of money.

(02:29:44):
And to know that he was supposed to protect it,
train others and he was actually destroying it, and at
the same time he was being called a hero.

Speaker 2 (02:29:55):
John ore Is. I'm not going to say he's a
simple man. I really don't a simple man. I think
it is a very complex. It's very interesting. I cannot
wait for part two. So you, guys, part two you
want answers. We can give you some, can't give you
all of them, because that's not how that works. But
part two, you don't want to miss that for sure, Birthday.

Speaker 1 (02:30:18):
He's not Potskam. He's not just an arsonist. We need
to remember he's a murderer.

Speaker 2 (02:30:24):
That is true.

Speaker 1 (02:30:25):
That is something to die because if remember he is
not just an arsonist, he is a murderer.

Speaker 2 (02:30:33):
And I hope that haunts him, and I hope you're
a little boy, Matthew.

Speaker 1 (02:30:38):
Wait until next week. I'm going to tell you it
does not haunt him. That's all I'm going to tell you.
Do not go do research, guys, you have no spoilers.
It does not haunt him.

Speaker 2 (02:30:51):
That's true. Well, let's wrap up tonight's as so, shall
we can. We've been here way longer than honestly I
thought we would be. But in fairness, it's my birthday.
We've been We've had a lot of fun. There's a
lot of story to tell. So whatever, we don't.

Speaker 1 (02:31:03):
Care, go wait guy up, elbow feet and get some
birthday eleven.

Speaker 2 (02:31:11):
Now, you guys, before we go. If you like what
you heard tonight, be sure to follow all of our
socials and subscribe to our YouTube channel. It's free. I'm
pretty sure you're probably gonna see a lot of more
funds finding them their way in next week's promo for

(02:31:31):
our social media. If you're listening to our pod, please download,
give us a rating or a review, whatever the platform
you're listening to on us ask for It helps tremendously
in getting our channel out there. Not just out there,
but lets us know that we're doing stuff that you

(02:31:51):
guys do want to hear right instead of us, just
which we will do at all points during the day.
So please go follow TCWT Media carry true crime and
true crime wine time at all of those please. Oh
why do I have the social media I don't even

(02:32:13):
have social media.

Speaker 1 (02:32:14):
That's why I'm hilarious that you have down. But guys,
we also have some new ways for you to support
the channel. They're new membership tiers. We just rolled them out,
so be sure to check out your options and make
sure you're joining and all of the members only fun.
I mean, you even get me all up in your DMS.

Speaker 2 (02:32:35):
That's true for as low as ninety nine cents, yo, just.

Speaker 1 (02:32:43):
I mean yeah. So, Also, we have merch at tcdwtemedia
dot com. Let me tell you, I got in my
midday missing Legends. They are buttery soft.

Speaker 2 (02:32:59):
I love it.

Speaker 1 (02:33:00):
My cous and I don't know how because they're not
those really really expensive ones. No cameltoe either, So buttery soft,
no camel toe.

Speaker 2 (02:33:09):
I love that.

Speaker 1 (02:33:11):
I was shocked because I was worried. But they are amazing. Okay,
now next week guys on True Trum and Wine time,
guess what we are going to be doing more oorsonist.
How did I do there?

Speaker 2 (02:33:31):
That was good? That's a good way.

Speaker 1 (02:33:34):
So why don't you, oh tomorrow, Oh that's for you.
You tell them tomorrow.

Speaker 2 (02:33:43):
Yes, Now, guys, if you need more Tarry True Crime
and I, you can always find us doing something on
our true crime in a Wine time YouTube channel. Now
Tomorrow is a very busy day again for me. I
can't wait to stream for like twelve mo our hours.
Tomorrow nine forty five am Eastern Time, we'll be starting

(02:34:07):
day three of the Mississippi versus Jeffrey Spence case.

Speaker 1 (02:34:10):
And y'all, if you.

Speaker 2 (02:34:11):
Haven't watched it yet, what a Place to Be has
not been disappointing.

Speaker 1 (02:34:17):
Miss Spy is more interesting than I knew?

Speaker 2 (02:34:22):
Right?

Speaker 1 (02:34:22):
Who knew? I had?

Speaker 2 (02:34:24):
No?

Speaker 1 (02:34:25):
I mean, it is like clutch your pearls and bless
your heart. Oh I love it. I am obsessed, Well
I love I'm loving it.

Speaker 2 (02:34:33):
Yes, I am obsessed with everyone involved in this case.
It's it's truly it's another family let's plot a murder
or somebody case, but it is very interesting. So we'll
be doing day three at nine forty five am Eastern
tomorrow and that less up till six o'clock and then
guess what four at for our lovely members or hire

(02:34:56):
of our YouTube channel, We're going to be doing our
first Zoom Room happy hour at seven pm Eastern. We'll
release the code for the room right before that. It
will not be recorded in any way, shape or form.
You are welcome to get on cameras on Mike's be yourself.

(02:35:18):
You get to hang out with us for an hour
for my birthday, but also with us we get to
know you better before our live TMI Too Much Internet
show for our members at nine pm Eastern, which will
be apparently the Leavel Lava Lama Levels Up fortieth edition

(02:35:43):
with me, Terry, the Lovely Amas, and of course Elbow Feats.

Speaker 1 (02:35:49):
Thank you for reminding me about the Zoom meeting because.

Speaker 2 (02:35:52):
Darrylccome, you're welcome. This is like Lama runs the calendar.

Speaker 1 (02:35:59):
It's on my calend. I would have known tomorrow when
I have my first call at seven am.

Speaker 2 (02:36:03):
Well, members, you will get the link for that. Again,
you do not have to be on camera or audio
at joint.

Speaker 1 (02:36:11):
If you've never done Zoom, you don't have to download
an app. You can do it from a web browbrowser.

Speaker 2 (02:36:16):
There's an option right at the bottom, by the way,
because that's what I do. It says it right when
you pull up the room.

Speaker 1 (02:36:23):
By the way, there is no recording, no transcript, nothing.

Speaker 2 (02:36:28):
You're in there or be square that didn't work.

Speaker 1 (02:36:34):
Score yeah, be there or be score.

Speaker 2 (02:36:37):
Score of just that's embarrassing.

Speaker 1 (02:36:41):
Let's not listen now.

Speaker 2 (02:36:46):
That's what we'll be doing tomorrow. So tomorrow night we're
doing that. If you haven't yet, please do like this
video and hit the notification bell so you don't miss
when we go live or drop an episode because I
told you we're on like literally all the time. If
you're listening on the podcast app, please download and leave
a review. It's my birthday, Can you just do it

(02:37:08):
this one time?

Speaker 1 (02:37:09):
All right? Fortieth birthday? Birthday?

Speaker 2 (02:37:13):
All right? Just do it for me, all right? And
it really helps other people find the show. Now, is
there anything else you would like to say before we
sign up?

Speaker 1 (02:37:24):
Terry, I would like to tell everyone thank you for
joining us live, those for watching us on the replay
or listening us on the podcast apps. I really appreciate
you not dropping your phone, throwing it against the wall
or hitting the end button because you thought we were crazy.

(02:37:44):
You appreciate it, but we are crazy, and guys, sometimes
these stories are so dark and so hard, and when
you live in the true crime world and the missing
person world, we need to find levity where we can.
And I needed this tonight because tomorrow I have seven

(02:38:05):
episodes to pre record for Midday, Missing that and a
call with a mom of a missing person. So I
needed this tonight. So thank you for not canceling us,
for not hanging up on us, and for being okay
with all of our stuff because that's where we are.

(02:38:31):
That is well.

Speaker 2 (02:38:33):
Thank you all everyone for listening and supporting us in
all the numerous ways that you do. Until next time,
take care of your mind, take care of each other,
and never stop asking the hard questions like in this
case Captain Casey, our hero, who will learn more about
next in part two. Now you everybody, as I always say,

(02:38:57):
go forth and be amazing.

Speaker 1 (02:39:00):
Thought of something If you would like to send a
happy birthday greeting oh jeez or Lama, if you could
please email that to Amy at tcwtmedia dot com, or
if you snipped it or something that you just found
so funny you couldn't live everyone, please be sure to
send that.

Speaker 2 (02:39:21):
Bye everyone, and bye everyone. Yes, please send that to
Amy so she stops harassing me or John send anything
either way.

Speaker 1 (02:39:34):
Thank you guys so much. Bye,

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S5 E27 - When a Firefighter Becomes an Arsonist_ The John “Pillow Pyro” Orr Story _ Part 1

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}S5 E27 - When a Firefighter Becomes an Arsonist_ The John “Pillow Pyro” Orr Story _ Part 1