S5 EP20 - The Man Who Vanished After Killing His Family_ The John List Nightmare Episode 1

Tonight, True Crime & Wine Time is uncorking one of the most chilling family annihilation cases in American history—the story of John List.
In 1971, a seemingly mild-mannered, church-going father from New Jersey vanished into thin air… right after methodically murdering his entire family. He left behind a note, some eerie classical music, and a lot of questions. And get this—he wasn’t found for nearly 18 years.
How did he pull it off? Why did he do it? And how was he finally caught?
Pour a glass, lock your doors, and let’s get into this jaw-dropping case of deception, identity, and cold-blooded calculation. You’re not gonna want to miss this one.
#TrueCrime #JohnList TrueCrimeCommunity #JohnListCase #TrueCrimeStory # JohnListStory #CrimeDocumentary #WestfieldMurders #MurderMystery #CrimeStory #FamilyAnnihilator #JohnListFamily


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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:13):
Hello. You could say words, Lady and Gray, Hi, just.

Speaker 2 (00:21):
Use your words.

Speaker 1 (00:22):
Hey, love the Internet. Just hitting Hello everyone, and welcome
to another episode of True Crime and Wine Time, where
we dive into the most jaw dropping true crime stories
while sipping something smooth to take the edge off. So
before we begin, poor Glass got mine, lock your doors

(00:43):
and let some core the truth behind some of the
darkest of crimes. I'm your host, Lama and the Lovely Terry.
True Crime is out for the next few weeks, so
if you see her in chat, give her some love.
So I'm gonna be bringing some co hosts and some
guest co hosts over the next couple of weeks. And
I brought the lovely point this way. I think the

(01:05):
Lovely Lady and Gray with me again tonight. I am
so good at the peer pressure apparently.

Speaker 2 (01:10):
Yes you are. I'm trying to spread it too. And
how y'all I had so much fun last week. I
just had return and talk about a very interesting case
that took decades to reach resolution.

Speaker 1 (01:23):
Yes, oh, I'm so excited about tonight. But before we begin,
if you're watching us on YouTube, please hit that like button, subscribe,
turn on the notification bell. So you never miss when
we go live or drop an episode because we've got
a lot of shows going on in this channel. Now
you can also become a member of our channel, which

(01:43):
comes with all sorts of exclusive perks. Well hi emotions,
Oh hey, I know you from the comment section. Hey girl,
sorry shout out there. Just click on the join button
and pick whichever it's here works for you. We have
a lot of stuff coming our way for our members,
including a brand new show. It's mostly going to be

(02:07):
for members only, So become a member. You can awe.
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Liking and subscribing does wonders for us. But you can
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your gifts because we have a lovely chat who loves

(02:28):
to gift memberships all the time because they're very generous
like that. Now, if you're listening to us on as
a podcast on whichever platform you're on, please leave a
rating and review as it helps our little podcet Notice,
Lady and Gray, why don't you tell us what we'll
be covering tonight.

Speaker 2 (02:47):
Well, okay, you got me missed up here. We are
covering part one of the story of John lest It
was a devout Lutheran father and his beautiful wife and
mother in a quiet New Jersey mansion, very nice place,
that is, until he murdered them all. Well, it would

(03:08):
take eighteen years, a clay bust and an episode of
America's Most Wanted to finally unmask the man who thought
he could outsmart time and get some long awaited justice.
This is the story of faith control and one of
the most cold blooded family annihilators in American history.

Speaker 1 (03:27):
Just chilling. Just the opening is just no chilling, Yeah,
because means chills thinking about it. But yes, and you guys,
this in order to tell the story in the best
informative way, this is going to be a two part pod. Okay,
So tonight we're just doing part one and we will
be doing part two next week, so you'll have to
join us for that to find out the conclusion. But

(03:51):
Leading and Gray, what are you drinking tonight?

Speaker 2 (03:53):
Well, tonight, I'm just having my normal tonic water with
lime in my what I call my doctor Spencer Reed
Tumblr because I see it looks like my cap.

Speaker 1 (04:05):
Oh I almost thought that was Doctor Spencer reed.

Speaker 2 (04:07):
No, but it looks like when I talk about doctor
Spencer read. This is what I'm talking about, and I
prefer believe it or not A store brand, Okay, Kroger
Tonic Water. You can't see it. I don't know if
you can or not.

Speaker 1 (04:22):
Yes, yes we can.

Speaker 2 (04:24):
As you can see, this is a regular, just like
a soda. It's just tom skinny nice. It's pretty reasons
surprise you get like eight for likes a lot.

Speaker 1 (04:34):
I think I've ever had a tonic water before.

Speaker 2 (04:36):
This tonic water alone, that's what I usually drink.

Speaker 1 (04:39):
Well, then, why are you now? Well? I today was
already decided for me from earlier today. But tonight I'm
finishing off our last bottle. Oh there's doll care on
the bottom because they said it on the floor. Oh.
I don't want to show you guys that. But tonight
I've been a finishing off our last bottle of leftover
Elfeat's brother. I think prosecco known as the Kirkland brand

(05:05):
of something big long word I cannot pronounce. So I'm
not even going and going to oh yeah, like you know,
it's very word, what scarier superior anyway? Okay, well, thank

(05:27):
you babe. Anyway, I already cracked this bottle open a
few hours ago on couch court with Lama. I couldn't
let go to waste. Here we are, I got oh
with a splash of simply strawberry juice.

Speaker 2 (05:41):
So rawberry juice.

Speaker 1 (05:44):
Yeah, it's really good. It's very refreshing and light. But yeah,
that all came from his brother's wedding. We are not
bougie and just having prosecco and champagne in our house
all the time.

Speaker 2 (05:56):
Yeah, you must be doing well on your podcast.

Speaker 1 (06:01):
We're not doing champagne. Well all right, well let's get
in to the story for tonight. Are you guys ready? Chats?

Speaker 2 (06:12):
Hey?

Speaker 1 (06:13):
All right, why don't you kick us off? Lady?

Speaker 2 (06:14):
All right? Will? This is John emil List. He was
born to a German speaking family in Bay City, Michigan,
on September seventeenth, nineteen twenty five, one year after his
parents were married. His father, John Frederick, was sixty four.
At sixty four, was twenty five years older than his wife, Alma.

(06:35):
Of German descent, they belonged to the German Lutheran Church.
The age difference of twenty five years wasn't the only
curious aspect of this marriage. John and Frederick John, Frederick
and Almah were also second cousins legal but just you know,
and full disclosure, my grandparents are fourth cousins, which is
also legal. A bit weird, but a good conversation starter.

Speaker 1 (07:00):
Yeah, that fourth is acceptable at a certain point, like, okay,
second cousins, and that big of an age difference is okay,
how did they get there? It's what I'm.

Speaker 2 (07:13):
Well.

Speaker 1 (07:14):
The List family lived in a Victorian house in which
they rented out the upstairs apartment. That's like one of
the houses I've always wanted to live in. But so
John slept in the parlor and had no privacy or
space for his personal effects, which makes no sense. Look
how big that house is, he can have his own room.
He's the only child. Get out of here now. As

(07:35):
a result of his living space being a public space,
which is what little boys love, right, just especially in
those teen years just a okay. Anyways, though, he learned
to be neat and to always put his things away
so he could blend into the background. Before you go,

(07:55):
Sammy Sunshine became a member again. Thank you, Sam him,
Welcome to the member fam.

Speaker 2 (08:07):
This is going to be this is going to mean
a lot more later. But John's father only dealt with
him through his wife, referring to him as the boy
he was expected to behave, expel at school and uphold
the faith of their church. John rarely spent any time
with his father, who was considered to be the neighborhood crank.

(08:30):
That apple won't fall from the church, fall far from
the tree. His father, who ran a local store, apparently
disliked children.

Speaker 1 (08:38):
Her face really creeps me out. Well, oh, that creeps
me out a lot. Don't like Yes, I don't like her,
but yikes. So John's mother protected him and brought him
into her social life, which centered on the church. Since
his father was a church trustee and also its treasure

(09:01):
Alma urged her son to follow in his footsteps. Most nights,
they read the Bible together, a practice John kept up
until he murdered her.

Speaker 2 (09:12):
Because practice wouldn't it Yeah, the classic helicopter parent. Alma
feared that John might get sick, so she watched him constantly,
keeping him dressed up to stay warm and dry. He
was not allowed to go out and play with the
other boys. She smothered him, giving him the impression that

(09:34):
the world beyond her was a dangerous place. For most
of his childhood, accepted this.

Speaker 1 (09:40):
In high school, John made some friends, but to the
spreads of no one, had no girlfriends. After graduating, and
over his mother's protest, he enlisted in the army. A
year later, in nineteen forty four, his father died and
he went home to attend the funeral. So people noticed
that he showed no signs of grief, and already he

(10:04):
seemed cold and unmoved. And I have this to say
about that. I mean, I have heard that kids who
have much, much older parents usually don't have that parent
child connection bond. You know, his dad would have been
in his eighties and was notorious for not liking children.

(10:27):
So the coldness, I don't think it's it's John's fault
and or weird. And I'm going to assure you all
this is the only freebie I'm going to give this
man tonight. Okay, this is it. I don't think that
makes him a psycho at this point in time, for
his dad being in his eighties and passing away when
he's a it is young boy man, that is.

Speaker 2 (10:49):
And it's hard on a young boy not to have
a father that's closer to him to well. After the funeral,
John was shipped overseas to the Pacific, but warld War
two was over before he had a chance to see
much action. He came home with an interest in firearms.
Oh yeah, and a new acquisition, an Austrian stires stire

(11:14):
that nearly three decades later he would use.

Speaker 1 (11:17):
On his own family. Yeah, this guy's a real piece
of work now. Alma urged John to go into accounting
for his career because of his personality. I'm sure after
his career after the war. No shade here, no shade

(11:39):
to the previous account. But you do have a personality
though some let's you worked with them. Let's be honest.

Speaker 2 (11:49):
I have worked with him. Yes, yes, I know what
you mean.

Speaker 1 (11:54):
But his mom wanted to have that job because it
was respected, stable and safe. You attend the University of
Michigan in ann armour. Hopefully eighties isn't listening. One of
his classmates was named Robert Clark, and John remembered him
well enough to later adopt his name as an alias,

(12:15):
though Clark could not recall ever having met him. It'd
be so that's so weird it is. It's kind of funny,
it is it is now. Almah visited once a month
and they would go out to dinner and attend church
services together. And they love to do their favorite thing,
which was to read and discuss the Bible. So real

(12:39):
party animal.

Speaker 2 (12:41):
Real party animals. He graduated with the Bechelor's degree in
a business administration and with his ROTC service, he became
a second lieutenant in the Army Reserve. He went on
to get an NBA. Just as he was starting a job,
he was called into service for the Korean War. Once again,
he saw no action and he ended up stationed in Virginia. Well.

Speaker 1 (13:08):
He did, however, meet his future wife while living in
Virginia at a bowling alley. So that's cute. Helen Taylor
had gone out that night with her sister, Jeane Seifert.
Helen was a recent military widow with a nine year
old daughter, Brenda. Gosh, those pictures are sold. Oh. It

(13:33):
was later said that Helen never really got over losing
her first husband, Marvin Taylor, whom she had married as
a teenager. In addition to Brenda, the young military couple
had a son who died before Marvin was killed in
action in Korea, So she's already kind of had a
tough we go.

Speaker 2 (13:55):
Has she has had a rep lap lap. John coured
her enthusiastically, and she was eager to find a new husband.
He seemed like a mama's boy, but she thought him
kind and stable. M John's mother, however, did not like
this arrangement one bit. Shock. Yeah, she was suspicious of Helen,

(14:19):
probably because the twenty four year old woman was a
young widowed mother, and because she did not belong to
their church. She was not one of them. Honestly, the
Alma would find any woman suitable for her baby boy.

Speaker 1 (14:32):
Oh no, not at all. How's it her fault? She's
a young widow.

Speaker 2 (14:37):
When there was a word, well, you know there are
there are people back in those days.

Speaker 1 (14:42):
Yeah, those people these days too now. Helen then announced
that she was pregnant. John knew they would have to
get married and soon, because that sounded great. He seemed
proud that there was some evidence that he had already
been to with her. I mean you right, Okay. They

(15:05):
tied the knot two months later after they met on
December one, nineteen fifty one. Then John introduced Helen to
his mother. Almah would never let John forget that he
had married beneath himself, because you know, he's her baby
boy and a king and deserves the best of everything.

(15:26):
I'll just say this, Almah sucks and it's horrible, and
she's the only one I do not feel sorry for
her in the story. I'm sorry she sounded like a
horrible dragon lady. Okay, I really did she did. Now.
Just before they were married, Helen told John that she was,
in fact not pregnant, but John felt the momentum pushing

(15:50):
them to marry anyway, so he did now before they
got married that she wasn't pregnant. You know, it wasn't
like a trap situation, right, and he sold her on. Now,
it was not long before she regretted her rush to
marry him.

Speaker 2 (16:03):
Yeah, two months is not long enough. Now. Oh. Look,
they were scheduled to go to California to an army
accounting center, and John decided to invite his mother since
she had never seen California. It was Helen's first taste
of how firm a present John's mother was in her
husband's life. They disliked each other, and John was always

(16:27):
caught in the.

Speaker 1 (16:27):
Middle don't say now. When the army discharged him, John
took Helen back to Detroit, where he resumed his accounting
job in a prestigious firm. After a series of miscarriages,
their first child, Patricia Marie, was born in January of
nineteen fifty five. Her first grandchild won over to her

(16:51):
son's marriage. Because this isn't in her notes, but he
solid earlier she was really upset that she kept having
miscarriages and was a bitch about it. That's what I
don't like you, Alma, Yeah, you're the worst. So then
John took a job in a growing company and moved
his family to Kalamazoo That I just say like that
because it's one of my favorite cities to pronounce. It's

(17:14):
so fun. Where another child was born, John Frederick, known
as John Junior. There's a lot just like our last
episode with there's a lot of similar names in this Witness.

Speaker 2 (17:27):
There's a lot of John, a lot of John's and Frederick's. Helen,
uninterested in John's religion, began avoiding attending church, leaving him
feeling abandoned. He began to feel angry into sulk in private.
Then Helen got pregnant again, which depressed her. So this
is number three. In like three years, four years Brenda,

(17:52):
Helen's first child was growing estranged. Now sixteen, Brenda wanted
to get out of the house and she was called
in send Brenda was pregnant and sent to a home
for unwed mothers. Oh yeah, that's what she did back then.
Not that it was right, but it's what he did.

Speaker 1 (18:11):
By the way, I don't know how Brenda old Brenda
was in the photo, but she is very beautiful. She
was just put that out there. So after Frederick Michael
was born in nineteen fifty eight, Helen took to the bottle.
She also became addicted to tranquilizers and began to see
a psychiatrist. I am sure is nineteen fifty eight. I

(18:35):
am sure they are leudes or something. They're gonna be
intense whatever she's on. Okay. She was spending more money
than John earned and neglecting the children, leaving much of
the child rearing to him. He rarely complained, but on
occasion when Helen pushed him too far, his face became

(18:56):
blotched and he would tremble with rage. Now once he
even overturned the kitchen table. I'm not saying I've done that,
but I've definitely been to a point where I felt
like I could have done that, So I get it. However,
it overturns it okay, and Helen simply said she was

(19:18):
not cleaning it up and left him to do it.
He got down on his hand on his knees and
picked up the broken dishes, as one should. If you're
going to do something like that's up to you to go. Yeah.
I mean I wouldn't do that either. Well we will
learn more about the children later, but for now, let's
continue on with John List, the director of this horror show.

Speaker 2 (19:43):
Tonight, the company that John worked for merged with another,
and he was let go as a result. Been there,
it does mess with your head just a little, So
I'll give him a little grace for that. Yeah, only
for a second. He then accepted a job in Rochester,
New York with Xerox. Hey man, he's moving up here.

Speaker 1 (20:06):
By the way, I'm pouring my prosecco. I am not peeing.

Speaker 2 (20:10):
Okay, okay, okay. Again, the Lists over spent and John
began to lie to people about their situation. Helen despised
him in his quirky ways and he grew angry when
she attracted the attention of other men, which I think
was kind of frequent.

Speaker 1 (20:27):
Actually, in less than a year at Xerox, he was
also let go. This is not going great for him.
He had a difficult time finding work, which is weird
but okay. And Helen's health was deteriorating. She did not
know it yet, but she had syphilis and her brain

(20:50):
tissues were shrinking. She had gotten this disease from her
first husband, Marvin, and it was too late for any
kind of treatment, and alcohol and pills only aggravated it.

Speaker 2 (21:05):
She's so pretty. Look at that picture.

Speaker 1 (21:07):
Yeah, that's really sad. No, that's so sad.

Speaker 2 (21:13):
John finally landed another job as vice president and controller
of the First National Bank of Jersey City in New Jersey.
They moved to Westfield, New Jersey in nineteen sixty five.
John asked his mother for the down payment for a
morge so they could purchase Breeze Noll, the mansion on
Hillside Avenue.

Speaker 1 (21:33):
Oh yes, oh one. I want to live in a
house that has a name.

Speaker 2 (21:38):
Now we can.

Speaker 1 (21:38):
You know, why don't people just make up names for
their houses? Is there a call? I can just call
my house? Whatever you could.

Speaker 2 (21:45):
Call your house, the bathroom repair, the terrain house. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (21:54):
Anyway, So Breeznol was a nineteen room, three story Victorian mansion,
maybe Lama's dream home, and it was the most expensive
house in an upper middle class neighborhood in Westfield, New Jersey.
This home was on the north end of Westfield, which

(22:16):
was considered the wealthy and most desirable part of town
because only the best for the list.

Speaker 2 (22:23):
Now.

Speaker 1 (22:23):
The spacious home even boasted its own ballroom, skippity manner
capain so mean time her outkiddy. Sorry, sorry for our
pod listeners. We do have comments that pop up on
the screen for our lovely life shatters that we love

(22:44):
all the time, so sometimes we get a little distracted.
That was a good one anyway. So this spacious home
even had a ballroom, which was described as the size
of a basketball court by one of John Junior's friends.
That's bigger than house, for sure. It's like three of
my houses.

Speaker 2 (23:03):
I know. It looked pretty large. Well. Alma readily agreed
to loan the money for the down payment on one
condition that she gets to live there with them.

Speaker 1 (23:15):
Yeah, it's always amazing when your mother in law moves.

Speaker 2 (23:17):
In yeah, for all the rest of her life would
be the unhappiest she ever felt.

Speaker 1 (23:24):
I think somebody on our team can really relate to
this one.

Speaker 2 (23:29):
Come on, and once she gave power of attorney over
to over her over her money to her son, she
lost everything she had.

Speaker 1 (23:38):
I have no sympathy for all.

Speaker 2 (23:42):
No, no, no, Well, this new job only lasted a year,
no surprise, because it was more a pr job than
an accounting job, and it require required social skills and
the ability to pull a new business. John was no salesman. Yeah,
also had very limited social skills with his coworkers and supervisors,

(24:03):
which if you can't talk to your supervisors, they're not
going to keep you around.

Speaker 1 (24:07):
So right, how even got this job in the first place?
Because he is not known to be a very personable man.

Speaker 2 (24:16):
He must do really bang up jobs on interview somehow,
that's all.

Speaker 1 (24:20):
He's probably reading that book that I hate that I
won't mention the book. That sall not there is now
is the time everybody's reading it? Now?

Speaker 2 (24:28):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (24:28):
Yeah? Anyway, very shortly, you guys guessed it. He was
fired again from another job. But is this four? Are
we on four now? Something like that? Anyway, he faced
a huge mortgage and high utility bills. You don't say
not to mention expenses for the family with children who

(24:51):
were becoming teenagers. Unable to tell Helen he left the house.
This fucking guy. He left the house each morning as
if going to work, and instead he sat in the
train station all day reading the newspaper or a book.
That's just what he did. And what was crazy to

(25:14):
me is why he bought a big ass expensive home
in the first place, knowing Dom well, they couldn't afford it.
You know. I'm sure Alma though told him. You know,
he was a special little boy in his early days
when he deserved all of the best. But like, also, sir,
why would you be making a purchase like that.

Speaker 2 (25:36):
I'd say. Helen wanted it too, She liked the stuff.

Speaker 1 (25:40):
Helen's brain is the part.

Speaker 2 (25:43):
I will give her that. He knows that I will
give her that. Yeah, her brain's not quite there. Yeah,
no photo pellets. He did. He did this for six
full months, bring the bills from his others count but
never telling her how, she said financially. He finally found

(26:06):
another job, but it was in New York and it
paid substantially less. This job too. In the last year
to pay his bills, he took out a second mortgage.
The train ride for this commute was probably about an
hour each way, which is not unusual for commutes in
New York City, but it may have been an acceptable
alternative sitting at the train station all day. You're gonna

(26:29):
say it, let's get paid to see it, right?

Speaker 1 (26:31):
How hard is it to get a job as an
account though? I feel like that's a necessary job, like
in so many.

Speaker 2 (26:37):
Places, like especially in that area, you know, like, yeah, that's.

Speaker 1 (26:46):
What always weirds me out, Like I don't understand.

Speaker 2 (26:49):
I don't know either.

Speaker 1 (26:50):
Well, you guys. Helen was diagnosed with cerebral atrophy, which
is not that's not good. It's really bad for your brain,
and John was advised to have her institutionalized, but he refused.
To escape his troubles. He lost himself in his hobbies,
books on military strategy, crime and weapons. Great choices for

(27:15):
hobbies always works out well. It was at this time
that he mentioned to his brother in law how easy
it would be for a person like him to start
another life. In October of nineteen seventy one, he did
apply for a firearms registration for home protection However, he

(27:38):
had something altogether different in mind.

Speaker 2 (27:42):
M yeah, well, he got another job sailing mutual funds
from his house.

Speaker 1 (27:53):
Oh, work from home jobs.

Speaker 2 (27:54):
That means he was home all day with Alan and
Helen continued to drink during this time, of course she did.
John tried to please her by buying her things, but
seemed never to meet her approval. He began to sleep
in other rooms of the house to avoid her sharp tongue.

(28:14):
He prayed to God for answers, for help in some form,
but he did not get it. His home, bought to
be haven from the world, was becoming a burden.

Speaker 1 (28:24):
Well yeah, well. To add to his troubles, the social
upheavals of the sixties were dissolving society as he knew it.
Oh my goodness, terrible, oh gosh. And he felt trouble
at every turn. It seemed to him that his life

(28:45):
was disintegrating and for a rigid man who needed control,
it was a disaster.

Speaker 2 (28:51):
And it was.

Speaker 1 (28:52):
It was a disaster for the most part. He's a disaster.
He began to take a very firm hand with his
children and trying to force them to obey his royals,
which always goes well, always.

Speaker 2 (29:05):
Goes, well, those evil sixties.

Speaker 1 (29:08):
I know. Right now, Before we go further, let's take
a few minutes to meet the list children. In interviews
with their childhood friends, they seem to be relatively normal teenagers,
the kind of kids most would like to hang out with.
Look at how adorable they are. They're so long, they're.

Speaker 2 (29:32):
The eldest was Patricia, also called Patty or pat by
her friends. She was almost eleven when they moved to Westfield,
and she was sixteen when she was murdered by her father.
Put her hair gorgeous. A junior at Westfield High School,
she was a good student at school and had joined
the community theater group just the year before she was killed.

(29:56):
This most recent passion of hers brought resentment from her father,
and not like theater kids, no, he vamily opposed her
taking on adult roles, as well as having general misgivings
about what he considered to be a subpar vocation or hobby.

Speaker 1 (30:14):
But let's don't talk about his hobbies, huh. I mean,
at least her hobbies didn't result in a annihilation of her
entire family. But okay, at the theater, watch out, yeah,
the horror. Well, her friend ed Sardaki was in the
theater group and a few years older than Patty. He

(30:36):
considered their relationship to be an older brother younger sister's
type of thing, and he said she reminded him of
the girl described in the hippie song about the girl
with the flower in her hair, most likely the flower
girl by the costless Huh.

Speaker 2 (30:53):
I can't tell you. I mean you look at her
and you say, yeah, I can see that. Yeah, it's
hid Patty. They had long brown hair and hazel eyes,
and it was easy to see her as the girl
described in the song. He said she was just finding
herself a bit of a rebel, if only in the
way teenagers would begin to rebel against the restraints placed
on the end by their parents in society. He said

(31:17):
she was simple, easy to understand, and really sweet.

Speaker 1 (31:21):
Oh yeah, okay, there we are. So Patty's friend Susan
talked about how she and Patty spent hours playing the
guitar and singing together in the breeze and almost huge
ballroom and how cool would that have been. That'd been
awesome cool. She remembered the acoustics were amazing, probably so,

(31:44):
she said for them as two dreamy teenagers singing and
playing music in that huge ballroom was like Hollywood, and
that would be awesome.

Speaker 2 (31:54):
Yeah, it probably was.

Speaker 1 (31:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (31:58):
John Junior was almost nine when the family moved to
Westfield and was fifteen when he was killed by his father.
He was a big boy, tall for his age, and
a big geeky. He was said to be very nice
and super well mannered. That's in quotes because I can
imagine he probably was, and a dilgent student. He wasn't

(32:19):
a dummy. He wasn't gregarious, but just rather shy.

Speaker 1 (32:23):
He looks so much like his dad though Duni though
he does, he does. But he is a good smile.
He has a U He does a realistic smile, you know,
a genuine smile. That's the word I'm going for there, anyway.
So his friend Charlie and John Junior were close friends

(32:44):
and played soccer together and ate lunch together. We also
hung out together after school, with John Junior's younger brother
always welcome.

Speaker 2 (32:52):
To join them.

Speaker 1 (32:53):
Charlie said hanging out at John's house was a strange
spot because of his father, John Lisz. Charlie said he
didn't remember ever seeing the older man smile, probably not.

Speaker 2 (33:06):
Probably not Charlie said the house felt cold. But this
may or may not be the way he felt at
the time, but maybe how he felt when he thought
about it later after all this happened. I don't really know,
but he said it didn't have It was sparsely furnished,
which might be another reason he said it felt cold,
and he and John Junior played floor hockey with brooms

(33:27):
and tennis balls in the expansive ballroom. Now, despite that
ballroom seemingly to be a fun and gathering place for
the teenagers, I don't think I like it very much.

Speaker 1 (33:39):
Yeah, yeah, it's not great. So Fred was the youngest.
He was seven when he moved into the breezeennoll in
just thirteen when he was slain by his father. Charlie,
we just talked about having John Junior's friend. He said
Fred hung out with him a lot, and he was
a nice kid, a mini version of his older brother.

(34:03):
And he said that John Junior and Fred considered the
other brother to be their best friend. Oh mg, that's
so sweet.

Speaker 2 (34:12):
Isn't he the cutest face?

Speaker 1 (34:15):
He is so cute.

Speaker 2 (34:17):
He looks like boys I went to school with. That's
old I am. This is the way brothers should be.
I agree with you, it's so sweet. I think it
also might be because they felt like they needed each other,
maybe as a united front in that home just didn't
seem to have been a very nurturing place. Charlie and
the List brothers were in the Boy Scouts together, and

(34:40):
John List was one of their Scout leaders.

Speaker 1 (34:46):
So the List brothers, unlike their outgoing sister Patty, they
were very shy. Fred more so. He was sweet, innocent
and agreeable, and he had a bit of a lisp,
and when Patty good heartedly tease him about it, he
never seemed to mind. He was the picture of a

(35:06):
boy scout. I mean, yes, yes he was.

Speaker 2 (35:10):
Yeah, he was. But as pat as she aged, Patty
began to rebel. She wore the fashions of the time,
which probably means mini skirts, I'm thinking. Marsha Brady grew
independent and developed a strong interest in theater. Uh oh, Dad.
Probably didn't go over well with Daddy. Her father did

(35:33):
not know it, but she also began to smoke marijuana
and had developed an interest in the occult, to the
point she called herself a witch among her friends, which
kind of freaked him out a little bit. She says
that her father did not like her and they had
frequent conflicts at home.

Speaker 1 (35:51):
Yeah. Two months before, Patty had been picked up by
the police for walking the streets after midnight and smoking.
I mean, this is so kind of like typical teenagers
even now, years after the diabolical sixties.

Speaker 2 (36:06):
Right.

Speaker 1 (36:09):
But to John List, his daughter was trouble and he
was certain she was going straight to hell because of course,
of course, and that his wife, who no longer went
to church, protected Patty from his anger and was a
sure indication that things were getting out of hims. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (36:33):
On November fifth, nineteen seventy one, John List made a
decision to change everything. He gathered his children together after
dinner in the kitchen. He told them that they must
prepare to eye and asked if they prefer to be
buried or cremated.

Speaker 1 (36:47):
Just normal, normal dinner conversation.

Speaker 2 (36:48):
Conversation, no big deal. They were shocked but managed to
say they preferred to be buried. Without another word, he
walked out. Patty and John both believed that their father
and and to kill them, and soon it wouldn't be
until December seventh that anyone realized what John had done.

Speaker 1 (37:08):
M Yeah, that conversation freaked me out too. I'd be like, Oh,
that's a really like weird thing to ask. Then I
think about it. Eli side note, I did ask me
this question the other day, well not are you prepared
to die? Like, what do you want to be buried? Created?
What do you want to do? And I was like, oh,

(37:29):
I probably want to be created? And he was like, Okay,
I'm going to need you to tell all of your
friends that right now, so that way, if you die
and I creamate you, they won't think that I'm doing
that to cover something up.

Speaker 2 (37:43):
See he's been thinking, hey, yeah.

Speaker 1 (37:45):
I mean I guess.

Speaker 2 (37:49):
Yeah, what I'm gonna say it? You just telled us all.

Speaker 1 (37:51):
Well yeah, but still investigated though, just in case I'm
just kidding. Yeah. Anyway, back to this, So, the List
children were close to each other, but their parents were
a different story. While they're often bed redd and mother
seems supportive of them, John List was distant, judgmental, and

(38:14):
detached shucking. He would drive neighborhood kids off his yard
if they dared walk across it, even threw rocks from
the gravel driveway at them, which of course caused them
to cross his line just to set them off. Of course,
John list was literally the original get off my god.

Speaker 2 (38:40):
And I don't think we.

Speaker 1 (38:41):
Included this in our notes, did we? But he does
this thing when he mows the yard. What he's wearing.

Speaker 2 (38:48):
We'll get Yeah, we'll get to that.

Speaker 1 (38:50):
Okay. I couldn't remember if that was like in the
notes are my research of it? But okay, okay, well
don't bring it up then.

Speaker 2 (38:56):
Yeah, we will definitely talk about that.

Speaker 1 (38:57):
Becakay, we have to okay. Sure.

Speaker 2 (39:01):
While his children tried to be respectful of their father,
Helen felt, no, so is that where I'm supposed to be?

Speaker 1 (39:07):
Yeah, it is no.

Speaker 2 (39:08):
Such compunction to be so. With her husband, she believed
him often, and was even overheard by their pasture, telling John,
if you were half the man my first husband was,
we wouldn't be in this position. She analyized her her
first husband. It was rumored there was a photo of
him in her bedroom. So she seems to have forgiven

(39:30):
Marvin for his infidelity and infecting her with syphilis. But
she does have a right to that notion that she wants.
I mean, her brain is also had to feeling, I know,
because of Marvin.

Speaker 1 (39:48):
But so in John's mind, Marvin was seen as a
Korean War hero. While he had nothing to show for
his military EXPERI variance. John felt his structured world was
falling apart. His marriage was ill fated from the start
and miserable. His children were rebelling, and he worried they

(40:12):
would follow their mother and pull away from the church.
And he was unemployed and seemingly unemployable. I'm gonna go
with it's because of his personality and the aura he
gave off, Like, there is no reason a man like that,
with that experience should happen. I mean, you're not even

(40:34):
talking to people a lot of the time. How are you?

Speaker 2 (40:37):
No, you don't talk to people a lot of the time,
which is why I liked it. You don't have the
people that you just when you would. I wonder what
Ada would think of his aura.

Speaker 1 (40:50):
Good big brother choked, Yes.

Speaker 2 (40:53):
It was everyone enlisted. Family trickster was hurtling toward the cliff,
and rather than apply the brakes, John was in cruise control.
He decided to put the peddle to the middle and
take his family with him on a swan dive over
the cliff.

Speaker 1 (41:08):
Yeah, that probably would have been nicer had they done
that than what he is about to do.

Speaker 2 (41:13):
Yeah, they didn't go to see Wally Moose or whatever
his name was.

Speaker 1 (41:18):
So for the past month, a neighbor next to the
mansion on four point thirty one Hillside Avenue had noticed
all of the lights on in the house and thought
it was quite odd. She knew the Lists family had
been away on vacation, but now the lights were burning
out and the house appeared abandoned. Although she spotted a

(41:40):
strange car in the driveway on several occasions. She finally
decided to notify the police.

Speaker 2 (41:47):
At this point, well around the same time, the neighbor
picked up the phone Patty's drama coach it and ed
Iliano I just got grapes looking at his picture had
his own concerns, so he decided to check them out.
Patty was supposed to be at a rehearsal for an

(42:08):
upcoming play and had not even sent a note to
say when she was returning from North Carolina. He went
to the house several times in this month all this
is going on, and finally decided to get them police involved,
but they were already on their way while he was there.

Speaker 1 (42:26):
Now finding a window unlatched, the officers entered the house.
There was no heat, so the temperature inside was almost
as cold as outside. Clearly, no one was there, although
they heard church music playing loudly over an intercom system.

(42:47):
The police seemed the police the place seemed barren of furniture,
as if the family had moved. Well, I just don't
think they had furniture, but it probably did. And you
buy a half like that, you can't afford the to
go in, what's the.

Speaker 2 (43:04):
Point of buying it. The officers made their way through
the empty dining room and into the pantry, where they
noticed dark stains on the walls. In the kitchen, the
striped floor was stained with dark streaks, as was the

(43:24):
hallway beyond. They noticed that a terrible smell was getting
stronger from down that direction and knew that something terrible
had happened. It appeared as if someone had tried to
own successfully to clean up blood.

Speaker 1 (43:36):
I'm just wondering, I can't really tell. Is that blood
on the door or is that an elephant door?

Speaker 2 (43:43):
Stop?

Speaker 1 (43:45):
You think it's okay? I was like, Oh, that's really cute.
I was like, it's not. Is it what an elephant sheep?
I don't know. So the police followed the scenes down
the hallway towards the ballroom. In one area near the fireplace,
there appeared to be mounds of clothing stocked up, and

(44:06):
the odor in there was heavy. When their eyes adjusted
to the dark, they looked at four corpses placed side
by side on boy scout sleeping bags. Boy scout sleeping bags.
I really really hate this guy, do.

Speaker 2 (44:29):
Not like it? Yeah. There were rags over their faces,
trails of blood up to where they lay, indicating that
they had been dragged there from other rooms. The drama
coach immediately identified them as Helen List and her three children.
Three children was side by side and Helen was placed
at a t angle above their heads, and it was

(44:49):
clear that they had been there for some time. Now,
look a police sketch.

Speaker 1 (44:57):
Look, yeah, they even did those back in nineteen seve whatever. Yeah, okay, yeah,
to use the state police track. It's not a new
concept to do a sketch or a diagram. Goodness, yes,
stick men, Yes, but at least they tried.

Speaker 2 (45:17):
At least they have a diagroom.

Speaker 1 (45:19):
It make measurement.

Speaker 2 (45:20):
It looks yeah, and everything.

Speaker 1 (45:24):
Now the officers checked the rest of the house while
the eerie organ music continued to play. And soon found
John Lyst's mother, Almah, murdered in the attic. She had
been closed into a storage haul off the kitchen and
a dish towel was placed on her face. She was
positioned on her back, knees spread and her calves under

(45:46):
her as if she had fallen to her knees and
then gone over backwards. They lifted the towel and saw
an expression of horror on her face and she had
been shot above the left eye. And I will say
that is exactly what it looks like, because.

Speaker 2 (46:04):
That's what it looks like. And so that's not going
to be shown here.

Speaker 1 (46:07):
No, no, we're not. We're not showing that. You can
find it yourself, but yeah, because don't like gold. But
also it is kind of gross.

Speaker 2 (46:18):
Yeah, So more police arrived and lasts were brought in
to reveal the killer's mo Hilen had been shot in
the left side of the head in the kitchen and
dragged by the feet down the hall to the ballroom.
Her arms were heavily streaked with blood. The killer had
left her with her not gown ridden up, exposing her thighs,
and her stomach was badly distended.

Speaker 1 (46:41):
Patty lay on her left side. She was wearing a
coat as if she had just come in. She too
had been shot in the head and then dragged to
where she lay. Fred was on his stomach, also wearing
a jacket. There was a pool of blood under his head,
and both brother and sister appeared to be merely asleep.

(47:04):
Now John Junior was another matter. His winter jacket was
on zipped, showing that he had been shot repeatedly in
the chest and face an attack more savage than the
others had suffered. Hm m mm.

Speaker 2 (47:22):
The house was searched to determine the killing pattern. Walls
and floors were streaked with blood, and efforts had been
made to clean up blood. Soap, towels and newspapers, now hardened,
were found in paper bags in the ballroom and the kitchen.
It looked as if the killer had expected to take
them with him out with the rest of the trash.
Bullet holes and several walls indicated that many shots were fired.

(47:46):
It was Westfield's first murder in eight years, and it
was a slaughter.

Speaker 1 (47:51):
I was gonna say, this isn't even a murder, This
is a mass murderer. For the times, you know, Like
holy crap. I know now. Doctor Ehrenberg, a Union County
medical examiner, arrived. When he examined John Junior, he suspected
the kid had put up a fight since he had
been shot multiple times, but looking more closely at the bodies,

(48:16):
there was apparent disintegration of the fingers and toes in
small maggots had begun their work and the bodies were bloated.
A neighbor, a doctor, came in to identify the bodies,
and he mentioned that there was one member of the
family who was not president. Oh my gosh, you gotta

(48:37):
be the children's father, John list Hugh.

Speaker 2 (48:43):
Well where he's at. While the officers talked over what
they knew of the man, a discovery was made in
what appeared to be in office on the filing cabinet.
Will take a group of notes, each addressed to a
separate person. One told of the location of keys to
the file cabinet Nurves, the founder of the note, to
contact the proper authorities. In the bottom drawer were two

(49:05):
games nine millimeters automatic and a twenty two caliber pistol
and some ammunition. These were impounded and tagged Well.

Speaker 1 (49:15):
This freaking guy. So inside inside the desk was a
large Manila envelope addressed to the pastor of lists church,
Eugene Awinkle. That's a fun last name. Inside of that
were checkbooks, bank books, insurance policies, and tax records. But

(49:36):
I don't know what was he just like leaving those
to the church or something. Mister, I have no freaking money,
so I'm gonna kill my family, but I'm gonna give
all this stuff to the church.

Speaker 2 (49:46):
Maybe you wanted him to write the last bills, pay
the last bills with I don't know what.

Speaker 1 (49:51):
Anyway. There was also a book that showed lists accumulating debts,
five notes and a long letter express condolences to family members,
gave advice to associates because this guy you want advice
from John List He is so successful in everything he does, obviously,

(50:14):
and he wrote out the final arrangement for his murdered family.
The audacity of this guy.

Speaker 2 (50:22):
Here's what I want you to do. It made it
beat for you. To his boss, he wrote, I'm sorry
that it all had in this way, but with so
little income, I just couldn't go on keeping the family together.
And I didn't want them to experience poverty, Like it's
the bosses problem.

Speaker 1 (50:40):
You didn't need to live in that house, though you
could have tried. Oh my gosh, his whole I'd rather
my family be dead than in a four bedroom house
with no ballroom is astonishing to me. I know, you
know who Jesus because he freaking loved Jesus. You know who.

(51:01):
Jesus really had a thing for the poors. Yes, yours,
but not not, mister, I'm so religious. No, we can't.
We can't be poor living in a normal size house.

Speaker 2 (51:13):
No, I know, Goud, it's terrible. He made the same
excuse to Helen's mother, the children's maternal grandmother. He also
means that he cannot be sure that their soul remain
pure in the future, giving the impression that he believed
he killed him for their own goods, so to save
his own mother from me, which he'd killed her too.

(51:36):
What a giver this guy is, Yeah, looking out for you,
you know.

Speaker 1 (51:42):
To be honest, I'm surprised he did go He didn't
go over kill with Almah, like with what happened with
John Junior. I am kind of surprised he didn't blame
her for a lot of things. It's like the first
I think I've come across that doesn't have well, he's
have super mommy issues, but you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (52:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (52:06):
Now, So to his pastor, he scrawled a five five
page confession which provided the whole story in detail of
how he had done the grizzly deed. He said his
wife was sick and had been turning away from God.
His daughter was doing the same. He had prayed for guidance,

(52:29):
but God had not answered him, so he goes to
kill them. I guess that's that's speaken to that conclusion.
But okay, no, it was an answer. I'm sorry, right,
Like silence is also an answer. It's like, no, why
would you even think I'd give you an answer? Okay.
So John feared that the conditions of the world would
be harmful to his children's souls as they reached adulthood,

(52:54):
insisting that he had taken care to ensure that their
deaths were not painful. List right List mentioned that John
had put up a fight but had not suffered long.
Then Liszt had gotten on his knees and prayed for
each one. I hate this guy. I hate this guy

(53:17):
so much. He's like, oh, don't worry John Junior, who
looks just like me. The guy shot a bunch of times.
He didn't suffer long, even though we looked eyes the
whole time as his own dad is shooting him.

Speaker 2 (53:29):
You don't think that emotional pain was worse than the
physical bind You know it was fair points whoaugh. He
gave detailed instructions for cremation with services that would ensure
a quick passage to heaven. He was grateful that they
had all died as Christians. Then in a PostScript, he added,

(53:50):
mother is in the attic. She was too heavy to
move a the PostScript for his mother. What a guy flight.

Speaker 1 (54:02):
Mm hmm, sight of my face love clue.

Speaker 2 (54:07):
Okay, it was time to search the house worth early
to piece together what had happened on that gruesome day.

Speaker 1 (54:12):
Yes, because it's it's not great. So Chief James Moran
led the investigation, and he was determined that List should
not be allowed to escape the consequences of what he
had done. Agreed every effort would be made to track
him down and bring him to justice. Look at that guy,

(54:33):
that's guys, I'm here to bring justice. Within an hour
of the discovery of the bodies, a teletype alarm was
sent out for John Emil List. I think that's what
like a telegram or something. I don't know, but that's
how it sounds like to me. Then the bodies were

(54:54):
removed for autopsy, and a shell and shellcasings were picked
up to try to determined how many times the victims
were shot at. And not Hicks.

Speaker 2 (55:11):
He's like a stormtrooper. Such a stormtrooper I had. I
had to fuddle war Stars. Yeah, I had to have
war Stars tonight from Kerry. It came out later that
Liz had numerous books on how to commit murder and
get away with it, and then he had spoken about
how easy it would be for an accountant like himself

(55:33):
with access to Social Security numbers assume a new identity.
I don't think that, and I'm an accountant too. He
also had developed an obsession with military strategy games, so
he made himself a winner when he cannot be a
successful winner in real world.

Speaker 1 (55:50):
Typical. Typical. But here's the thing. He didn't really get
all these books on how to commit murder and get
away with it. But he didn't get away with murder
though he told him saying this is what I've do,
I'm pretty sure that's not what it's said to do
in the book. Okay. You literally was like, oh me,
I did it. Here's why. Here's my full confession to
like seven people.

Speaker 2 (56:10):
It's like he's the worst.

Speaker 1 (56:12):
Right, Like I don't think he understood the full assignment.
Like okay, okay, you know how to like change your identity,
but the getting away with murder part, it's step one
and you failed. Miserable.

Speaker 2 (56:28):
Oh he's crazy, Oh idiot. Oh let's see where are we.

Speaker 1 (56:35):
Oh it's my turn. Myraine is just.

Speaker 2 (56:38):
Like no, I'm like, I'm getting this craziness.

Speaker 1 (56:41):
Oh my goodness. So, his missing blue Chevrolet in Paula
was located at the Kennedy International Airport in a long
term parking. The voucher was dated November tenth, and he
was not listed as having taken a flight, but his
passport was missing from the house. Now. The trail ended

(57:03):
there and the FBI was given jurisdiction for the search.
In iSentia. List was indicted by a New Jersey grand
jury on five ounce of murder and on fleeing a
crime scene across state lines.

Speaker 2 (57:21):
His record showed that he had failed miserably as an
insurance salesman, only surprised and was several thousand dollars in bed.
He was behind on his mortgage and utility payments and
had made less than five thousand dollars for the entire year.
Now it was nineteen seventy one, but I've done the
math for you. That is the equivalent of thirty nine thousand,

(57:43):
six hundred and eighty seven dollars in twenty twenty five
with a master's degree. You sucked, John List, You just suck.

Speaker 1 (57:53):
Then he's too good. It's too poor.

Speaker 2 (57:56):
Yeah, it's too poor for him.

Speaker 1 (58:00):
And this guy it's insufferable. So he also owed his
mother ten thousand dollars for payment for his house, so
double whatever the number, lady and Gray just said yeah,
and for closed proceedings had already started. So he was
going to lose this big, beautiful mansion that he could
never afford in the first place, had no furniture in it,
definitely wasn't going to get a good resale value now

(58:22):
that it's a freaking crime scene. So good job with that.
And he had taken all of his mother's savings as well,
some two hundred thousand dollars, which what is that like
a million dollars close to.

Speaker 2 (58:37):
Now, probably it probably be more than that because things
we'll find out later. We had a thousand dollars that
is almost a million dollars today, So it's a.

Speaker 1 (58:50):
Buffalo the money he spent with nothing to show for it.
That's true now. As people request, and it became clear
that List not only had a trouble marriage to a
wife who despised him and who was growing increasingly ill
in housebound, but also that he was caught between her

(59:14):
and his over protective mother.

Speaker 2 (59:17):
The children had been unsettled and distressed as well, showing
signs of fear and panic. In the weeks before the
day of the murder. Patty even told her drama coach
that should he hear that they were about to go
off on a vacation, that would be a signal that
her father was about to murder them.

Speaker 1 (59:34):
It's crazy. A sixteen year old girl.

Speaker 2 (59:38):
Well Edieleano did not take this seriously at the time. Well,
who would, right likely? When Patty told her friend Ed
Saradaki that her father was making wills and other official
documents for her and her brothers, he also brushed off
her concerns as Liz just being an accountant who liked order.

Speaker 1 (59:59):
Sure, totally normal thing to do. Yeah, the right wills
for your fifteen year old year old.

Speaker 2 (01:00:05):
You might do that or have insurance policies for them,
but you're not going to sit down and ask him. Now.
You need to be ready to die.

Speaker 1 (01:00:11):
Yeah, right, are you side some peas and pork chop?

Speaker 2 (01:00:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:00:19):
So. As bullet patterns in the bodies and the walls
were examined, along with blood spatter and the evidence of
attempts to clean up, police were able to roughly determine
all of the events of that day and list of
preparations for it, including canceling deliveries of the newspaper, mail

(01:00:42):
and milk. So's a lot of things.

Speaker 2 (01:00:47):
He was he was checking off his list.

Speaker 1 (01:00:50):
He was it's interesting how he can, like, you know,
take care of a budget now and come back instead
of I don't know, a couple of years ago before
he said, Oh, I guess I got to kill my
family now.

Speaker 2 (01:01:00):
He really needed it. On November ninth, nineteen seventy one,
after his children had left for school, Liszt watched the
mailman drive away for the final time and then put
his plane in motion. The first victim was Helen. She
came into the kitchen in a red satin titty and
robe to get something to eat. Oh, Liszt left his

(01:01:20):
first floor office and came up to her from behind us.
She stood looking out the window. As she sat looking
at the window, I'm sorry she was sitting. He raised
his Shiite Stier nine millimeters automatic handgun about eighteen inches
from her head and shot her in the jaw.

Speaker 1 (01:01:40):
Not even a nice shot, like and you don't mean
that is inline, but that can be crude, like that's
not an instant. I pretty sure if it's just in
her jaw.

Speaker 2 (01:01:52):
Well, it probably he shot her in her head, but
it probably was like this side instead of like in
back in front from Oh.

Speaker 1 (01:01:59):
Okay, I see what you're okay, So she may have Probably.

Speaker 2 (01:02:02):
He probably get close to her and shut it out.
Why but he was eighteen inches away.

Speaker 1 (01:02:06):
Oh, I was just wondering if she would have suffered
or not, you know what I mean. Well, but we'll see. Okay, guys,
guess what. She hit the table and then fell to
the floor and died instantly. So that just answered my question.
Maybe we don't entirely.

Speaker 2 (01:02:22):
Oh but yes, that's probably what the autopsy, he said,
but it may not be the case.

Speaker 1 (01:02:29):
Right. Blood gushing from her wound the toast she was
eating jammed in the back of her throat, which is
like one of my hors choking and so like, oh oh, Helen.
It is likely that she had caught a glimpse of him.
As he raised the gun. Liszt fired several more shots

(01:02:51):
into the wall beyond the table. One bullet ricocheted into
the adjoining room.

Speaker 2 (01:02:58):
Why well, now, I did look at this research's gun.
And you know how people say automatic, but it's really
a semi automatic where you have to pulled the trigger
each other. This one was not. This one was a
real automatic, which means his finger on the trigger, it
would go, It's like a machine gun.

Speaker 1 (01:03:15):
Okay, that makes a little bit more sense.

Speaker 2 (01:03:17):
So I know I had to look that up too,
because I though, why does he keep on the trigger
when he knows when you can see that she's not
I believe that particular gun. You probably can't get one anymore.

Speaker 1 (01:03:28):
I mean inherited there or something that makes a little
bit more sense there.

Speaker 2 (01:03:33):
But also Stormtrooper. While Hill lay on the Linolan floor,
Liz went up the backstairs to the third floor, and
without knocking, he entered his mother's apartment. He surprised her
in the kitchen. She was holding a plate waiting for
some toast to pop up from the toaster. She was

(01:03:54):
startled by his intrusion and asked him what that noise
was she had heard downstairs.

Speaker 1 (01:04:00):
His response was to shoot her point blank over the
left eye, and then shot two more bullets into the wall,
apparently from an automatic reflex, as lady and Greg just
did an amazing job explaining that to us. It is
also possible, though, that he shot at her missed, and
she tried to run from him, but he caught her

(01:04:22):
and shot her in the face. His intent had been
to take her downstairs, but she was a large woman
and too heavy for him to move very far. She
didn't look very large to me.

Speaker 2 (01:04:34):
I think he was just a wamp.

Speaker 1 (01:04:35):
I think she did not look at all like a Why.

Speaker 2 (01:04:42):
I think he was just a wamp. Probably he didn't
want to go take her down three stairs.

Speaker 1 (01:04:47):
Could it be bothered?

Speaker 2 (01:04:49):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:04:50):
Anyway, so he pushed her onto a carpet runner and
shoved her into the storage area. Why he had to
hide her? Why why would you even do that?

Speaker 2 (01:04:59):
Whatever? Understand either? When he displayed the others, it seems
really strange.

Speaker 1 (01:05:03):
Right, It doesn't what's the point it's in the attic.

Speaker 2 (01:05:08):
I didn't figure that one out either.

Speaker 1 (01:05:11):
Falling, he tried to clean the floor with a dampened
newspaper and a towel, because.

Speaker 2 (01:05:20):
Your manse gonna kill five people, come on, newspaper, that's
all he had. Jeez, maybe his mother didn't have any towels.
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:05:31):
This guy's a joke. By the way, everyone may be like,
why are you guys joking and laughing so much? This
is horrible, and it's true. It is right what to
stay here and make fun of this pos is exactly
what he deserves. We're not making fun of the family.
They did not deserve any of this.

Speaker 2 (01:05:49):
But he deserves mockery, very terrible.

Speaker 1 (01:05:55):
Yes, he does deserve all the mockery in the world.

Speaker 2 (01:05:58):
Then List went back down and dragged Helen by her
feet down the center hall and into the ballroom. He
left a forty foot trail of blood and nothing. He
took three boy scout sleeping bags and opened two of
them side by side, and then he laid one perpendicular
to those two. And this is the one where he
put Helen's corpse face down. He covered her with a

(01:06:21):
bath towel and placed the kitchen towel on her head.
As with his mother, he attempted to clean up the
trail of blood. It was at this point he realized
his own clothing was soaked in the blood of his victims. Well,
I can't imagine, but.

Speaker 1 (01:06:37):
I just why did he move from in the first
So weird anyway, So then he went into his wife's bedroom,
which he did not share with her, and sat on
the unmade bed, wiping his blood stained hand on the sheets.
Then he went into the bathroom and vomited, leaving a

(01:06:59):
bloody on the toilet lid. Afterwards, he showered and changed
into a fresh business suit and tie, leaving his soiled
clothing and spattered shoes in a pile in the bedroom,
because yeah, of course.

Speaker 2 (01:07:15):
Why not, We're just gonna get dressed and ready to go.
The next step was to leave a message for his
boss that he could not attend a scheduled meeting and
did not know when he could reschedule, because he was
taking the family to North Carolina to see There's mother's
mother who was very ill. Now she was in fact
eel which had prevented her from making a planned trip

(01:07:37):
to visit them, which is a good thing because she
would have been victim number six.

Speaker 1 (01:07:42):
Oh for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:07:43):
He wrote notes to the children's schools and after school
places in employment with the same message.

Speaker 1 (01:07:49):
You know all the things he just did. Pretty sure
those weren't in his how to get Away with Murder books? No,
none of that's the race stuff to do. But okay,
glad you're a dunda. Now he waited all right, already
took care of his wife and mother. Now the children
would not be home for several hours, so to pass

(01:08:12):
the time, as one does, he went out into his yard. Yes,
weirdest freaking things about this guy, Okay, So to pass
the time after killing his wife and his mother, he
went out into his yard dressed in his suit and
tie and raked leaps. By the way, he was known

(01:08:35):
to have mowed the yard in a suit and tie
on the wreck for some reason.

Speaker 2 (01:08:42):
And even if he didn't have a jacket, who was
still in a bress shirt and tie.

Speaker 1 (01:08:47):
Yeah, okay, that die so a neighbor though, And that
day a neighbor saw him, but he John Liss pretended
not to notice her. Then he made lunch for himself
because he works up as sweat and he was hungry.
He was very busy morning. So then the phone rang,

(01:09:07):
startling him. Oh and it was Patty, his oldest daughter.
She did not feel well and wanted a ride home.
This presented a problem, though, since List had not planned
for it, even though he didn't really plan anything, but
he didn't plan for this. But he begrudgingly went and

(01:09:32):
picked her up at Westfield High.

Speaker 2 (01:09:36):
Oh, look, there's Westfield High School. Back at home, Liszt
hurried to be the first into the house. He crouched
behind the door waiting. As Patty entered, he show her
at close range in the back of her head. She
fell forward, dying, lying on dying on the floor. List
dragged her by the feet down the center home and
placed her on one of the open sleeping bags. Mmm.

Speaker 1 (01:09:58):
Makes to steal meowed mmm. List washed up once again,
and this time he went to go run some errands,
gathering what money he could by closing what was left
of his mother's account and also his own. He mailed
the letters he had written to the school and places

(01:10:18):
of employment and those who encountered him later. Remember how
blatchie his face looks and how nervous he acted. I
think by blotchie. They mean hives, right, It sounds like hives.

Speaker 2 (01:10:30):
Did I think red spots from what stress and exertions? Yeah? Yeah,
if I was sweating even though it was November or
yeah November?

Speaker 1 (01:10:38):
Yeah, that's cold in New Jersey and November yoh yeah
it is by that Atlantic Ocean which is cold, ye know.

Speaker 2 (01:10:46):
Later that afternoon, he picked up young Fred from his
after school job. Once again, he heard into the house
and grabbed his gun from behind the kitchen door. Fred
did not have time to even remove his coat. He
was dead in an answer from a single bullet to
the head. Liz took him to the ballroom and placed
him next to Patty, positioning his head to touch his mother's.

Speaker 1 (01:11:10):
You know it's crazy, is young Fred? How was he
at thirteen? Fifteen? I forget howld he at thirteen? Well
he has a job, unlike you. John, the thirteen year
old can keep a job. What's your problem? But okay?

Speaker 2 (01:11:25):
He had the children get jobs, he said, in order
to teach them responsibility. But it's not lost. It was
for the money, right exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:11:33):
So John Junior was not expected home until after his
soccer practice, so Liz prepared himself to leave as soon
as the last of his children were dispatched was dispatched.
At one point, he looked up to see John coming
down the driveway much earlier than expected, and Liz was

(01:11:54):
not prepared, but he dared not let John see the
mess in the kitchen.

Speaker 2 (01:12:01):
John Jr. Came in through the laundry room and spotted
his father level of gun at him. He grabbed his
father's hand and the bullet that was fired pierced the ceiling.
They struggled and two shots went into the floor. Another
hit the cabinet, and if it hit the dining room
window frame, John Junior dodged away. The next bullet caught

(01:12:22):
him in the back behind the neck, and another hit
him in the head. He fell and broke his jaw.
This fired another, but the boy was still alive. With
a gun in each hand, he fired wildly and unmindful
of the noise. Desperate to kill his oldest son, John

(01:12:42):
Junior crawled across the floor to escape the barriage of
bullets from the twenty two. The boy turned over, face
up and list fired straight into his son's eyes. Still
he was not dead. The list fired again, mutilating his
son's body with each bullet. The boy was hit ten pounds.

(01:13:04):
John Junior was said to be his father's favorite child favorite.

Speaker 1 (01:13:09):
Looks a lot like him.

Speaker 2 (01:13:11):
Mm hm, and he was probably They said it was
tall for his age of fifteen. He probably was as
tall as his dad.

Speaker 1 (01:13:17):
Probably, I would think probably. M Finally, the gun was empty,
and John Junior lays still he was dead. Liz dragged
him into the ballroom to place him with the others.
He straightened out the sleeping bags and then placed Helen's
stiffened arm over Fred. He covered each face with a towel,

(01:13:40):
then listed note down and prayed for each one, bidding
their souls to depart in peace. Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:13:52):
Around seven pm, Liz called his pastor, Reverend Ray Winkle
at Redeemer evangebl Luthor Church, because that's what you.

Speaker 1 (01:14:02):
Do a redeemer. Yeah, I know, there's no redemption in
this story, guys.

Speaker 2 (01:14:07):
He said that his family was en route to North
Carolina and he was about to join them. He could
not teach Sunday school. It is, isn't it?

Speaker 1 (01:14:15):
Yeah, them beautiful church.

Speaker 2 (01:14:18):
He could not teach Sunday school the following week as planned. Well, yeah,
I would love to have heard what he talked about
the pastor said he would remember the List family in prayer.
Listen called ed Iliano to keep him from nosing around.

Speaker 1 (01:14:35):
But did he though?

Speaker 2 (01:14:36):
And I recalled Patty's eery words about a family vacation.

Speaker 1 (01:14:40):
Hmmm. The last task for List was to sit and
write the letters on a pad of paper labeled quote
a few words from John E. List com a career builder.
Get the fuck out of here, bro, What are you

(01:15:03):
talking about?

Speaker 2 (01:15:04):
That is like the best? Okay?

Speaker 1 (01:15:08):
Oh my gosh, career builder, What you're gonna write your
manifesto on? Get out here? What are you talking about?
Oh my gosh, I can't even with this guy. So
he writes all these bullshit letters and he put the
letters into an envelope for Reverend Rinwinkle, all ready to
be mailed. Then he wrote a lengthy confession to the

(01:15:31):
pastor because he was the one He was the one
person who would understand what okay? He asked that they'd
be cremated, as the children had agreed to, and his
mother had a plot in Michigan and was to be

(01:15:52):
sent there.

Speaker 2 (01:15:56):
Now, he says, the children agreed to be cremated, but
they told him something different.

Speaker 1 (01:16:00):
If I remember, yes, they said buried. Okay, I wasn't
going to bring that because I was like, oh, did
we accidentally.

Speaker 2 (01:16:05):
Like, No, I don't think that's I mean, I don't.

Speaker 1 (01:16:08):
I think he did the opposite of what he he
was going to do, what he wanted to do.

Speaker 2 (01:16:12):
I don't know. I don't know why he even asked.

Speaker 1 (01:16:13):
Him that, to be honest with you or anyway.

Speaker 2 (01:16:15):
I think he thought if they were cremated, then there
would be no upkeep.

Speaker 1 (01:16:21):
I think, honestly, in my opinion, this is offscre off,
off topic here, but I think he did that to
his family because they didn't mean anything to him. Where
his mom is the only person that ever actually meant
anything to him, and so she was going to get
a proper burial, but not his family, who have only
brought him down, made him less of a man. They

(01:16:42):
are the reason he is unsuccessful in life. That's my theory.
I don't know if it's true. It's my theory. It's
with vibes I'm getting from this guy.

Speaker 2 (01:16:52):
Well, the vibe makes sense to me too. I mean,
I hadn't thought about that, but probably for seventy one
a lot of people weren't creamy.

Speaker 1 (01:17:01):
No, not that they are now, I don't know if
it's an okay for a thing for Lutherans. I don't
really know that religion myself, you know, because some are
like hard nos. You know, some I don't know. But
I would think by the seventies that wasn't a very
popular time for no it really do those kinds of things.

Speaker 2 (01:17:22):
He also mentioned that he originally had planned this mask
for All Saints Day, but he had been delayed. Well,
I'm so sorry, John, I know why am I telling
you this. I don't know what I had to tell
you anyway, because you have to know it all I do.

Speaker 1 (01:17:39):
I do, it's true.

Speaker 2 (01:17:42):
Then he asked to be dropped from the congregation roles.
He felt sure that God would forgive him since Christ
had died for him along with all other sinners.

Speaker 1 (01:17:53):
Okay, here's something like right before we finish this up,
can I just say okay? So he said he this
is his mindset. And again, I'm not a very religious person.
I'm not speaking ill of anyone's religion, okay, but according
to this guy, all right, he says that God and
Christ are going to forgive him for murdering his entire

(01:18:14):
family because Christ had died for him in all their sinners.
So why was he so concerned that his children and
whatnot were going to hell if they were just going
to be forgiven for smoking some weed and being in theater, Like,
what are we doing here?

Speaker 2 (01:18:31):
I'm glad to me. I'm going to quote you my
favorite quote from Criminal Minds. It only has to make
sense to the end.

Speaker 1 (01:18:38):
So I mean, I'm gonna go with it, my sense, people,
I'm gonna go with this is not a popular belief
among these these people that this is crazy nonsense, and
it is. But also, but why didn't that apply to
your family?

Speaker 2 (01:18:58):
Like I don't Well, it's like it's like people who say,
well against their religion did get divorced. Gosh, they can murder.

Speaker 1 (01:19:06):
I'm sorry, I forgot Patty smoked after midnight, which is
a devil's hour.

Speaker 2 (01:19:11):
He's a devil girl, devil girl.

Speaker 1 (01:19:16):
Oh gosh, okay, so let's around this. So, feeling hungry,
List prayed again as one does, and then made himself
some dinner okay, which sorry slowly and okay, more commentary
for me because I'm getting off because my brain is

(01:19:38):
just like drop anyway, So he ate some food that
he made for himself. He betted down in the billiard
room in the basement. Why in the you have fourteen
freaking rooms but okayen nineteen well ones occupied in the
end and the ballrooms occupied. Yeah, you're got so into

(01:20:00):
another room. The pillared room in the basement is where
I want to be, not far from the bodies of
his family. And he slept until dawn because he was exhausted.
When he awoke, he turned the thermostat down to fifty degrees,
which again I have quite why when did you want
it to be higher?

Speaker 2 (01:20:21):
No, because the bodies would you don't. They're not gonna
It's sort of slow decomp. I know.

Speaker 1 (01:20:27):
Somebody asked the How to Get Away with Murder book
very well, because it would be the opposite. Then he
switched He switched lights on in every room and put
music on the intercom system, which is so creepy, and
he turned it up loud. He also cut himself. He

(01:20:51):
cut himself. Matters all of the photos and the family album.
The time it must have taken and to be like nope,
I wonder what he did with all his faces. Did
he throw them away? Did he keep them?

Speaker 2 (01:21:06):
No? He must have them with him because they didn't
have him. That was part of their problem with him.
We'll find out.

Speaker 1 (01:21:12):
As like they're like, oh, nobody knows what he looks like.

Speaker 2 (01:21:15):
Ever, we'll find out Part two.

Speaker 1 (01:21:18):
Freaking weird thing to do, man, anyway, So he cuts
the photos out of his family albums of himself and
then with nearly twenty five hundred dollars which is about
nineteen eighth and forty three dollars in twenty twenty five
in his pocket, some clothes and his suitcase, and with
no one left to think about, he drove away towards

(01:21:41):
a new life, as one does.

Speaker 2 (01:21:45):
Well, here's a creepy thing at Iliano recalling Patty's warning.
Drove past the house the evening of November not and
saw that all the loss were on, and he figured
everything was fine, and he drove away.

Speaker 1 (01:22:00):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 2 (01:22:01):
I mean he could have stopped anything.

Speaker 1 (01:22:04):
He could have stopped for what was going to happen next. Yeah, yes,
so I'm not blaming that guy. That guy had, I
know that's really not with this anyway. But we're not
blaming you, bro, Just like how interesting, how interesting? Well
with that, that's all we got for you for part one.
So let's do our closing thoughts and wrap up tonight,

(01:22:27):
so we'll start with closing thoughts by Lama. Really, the
only thing you need to know about John List is
that he was a basic bitch. Okay, he excelled at
literally nothing ever in his life, there was really nothing
exceptional about him, no matter how much he yearned and

(01:22:48):
probably thought he deserved it. He wasn't a good man, son, friend, husband, father, employee,
or Christian for that matter. The only reason he was
able to do anything that we will be discussing in
next week's part two is only because of the time
period this takes place. Because, as we all saw, he

(01:23:11):
is an idiot doing what he did. All family annihilators
are pieces of shit, and I will give John less
credit that in this was the only thing he ever
was successful at being in his life. Congratulations John, Yes, John,
bravo to you.

Speaker 2 (01:23:31):
You were at the top of the heap on that one.

Speaker 1 (01:23:36):
Number one big guy.

Speaker 2 (01:23:38):
Yeah, I mean, what a guy.

Speaker 1 (01:23:40):
If his life I'd send him a coffee bug number
one piece of shit.

Speaker 2 (01:23:46):
Well you's a problem with doing that, now.

Speaker 1 (01:23:50):
Make sure to send on Father's Day.

Speaker 2 (01:23:52):
Yeah exactly, I mean, what a guy. He's a mama's
boy who failed his mama, not that she was terrific,
but still the husband who failed his wife, father who
failed his children. He was just a failure, except as
you said, he excelled as a family annihlighter. John, You suck.

(01:24:12):
I got to say. That's all I can say. Next
week we will see another John who does not suck.
Help take this loser.

Speaker 1 (01:24:20):
Now, that's right, Good John, Good John John. Now, before
we go, if you like what you heard tonight, be
sure to follow us on all of our socials and
subscribe to our YouTube channel. It's free. Or if you're
listening to our podcast, please download and give us a
rating or review. All of that helps us tremendously in

(01:24:41):
getting our channel out there. Now, you guys, next week
on True Crime and Wine Time, we will be covering
part two of the man who vanished after killing his family,
The John List Nightmare. And you guys do not want
to miss how this concludes. I know we already know
he did it, but what comes next is wild. Yeah
it is, so you do not want to miss the

(01:25:01):
conclusion to this story. Now, if you need more of
Terry's True Crime and I, you can always find us
doing something on our True Crime in Onetime YouTube channel.
Now Terry is out for the next few weeks, so
there will be no Midday Missing until September first. But
I know they're trying to return with a bang, But

(01:25:22):
you guys, couch Core with Loma is back at ten
am Eastern Monday through Friday for the next few weeks.
We are currently covering the trials of Brooks House and
Joseph Lawson, as well as Stephen Lawson. And I've already
went on several rants today because I I just can't.
I can't even there, Okay, I yes, yes, So these

(01:25:49):
are the people who have been tried in the disappearance
and presumed murder of Crystal Rogers. If you're unfamiliar with
the Crystal Rogers case, I did a huge, very long,
multi hour dive covering everything about her case, as well
as other unsolved cases in Bardstown, Kentucky. Yes, Jade Officer
Jason ellis the Netherland mother and daughter who both of

(01:26:11):
those stories need to get out there more so go
to our Crystal Rogers playlist to catch up. If you
haven't yet, please like this video, subscribe and hit the
notification bells so you don't miss when we go live
or drop a new episode. That was really fast. I
need to do with that. I want to thank Lady
and Gray for being a lovely co host tonight. She's

(01:26:33):
got two under her bell. Good show, You're doing great. Everyone.
Let her know how she did an amazing job in
the comments and is there anything you would like to
say before we sign off.

Speaker 2 (01:26:46):
I just want to thank you again for having me
on his co host again. It was fun. It gets
a little easier and more comfortable every time, and so
I'm going to encourage other team members to give it
a try. And I'm spot a couple right now on
the chat, but I'm not gonna name anybody, but I'm
just gonna say thank you everyone for being here, and

(01:27:07):
good night all y'all.

Speaker 1 (01:27:09):
Well, thank you everyone for listening and supporting us. Until
next time, take care of your mind, take care of
each other, and never stop asking the hard questions. Now,
go forth and be amazing. Bye, guys,