S5E P21 - The Man Who Vanished After Killing His Family_ The John List Nightmare Episode 2 - True Crime and Wine Time

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:12):
Oh look there we are.

Speaker 2 (00:14):
Hello one, Hello, Hello, Hello, look at that kid.

Speaker 1 (00:20):
We're here on a Thursday. I'm excited. I'm excited. Hello everyone,
and welcome to another episode of True Crime and Wine Time,
where we dive into the most jaw dropping true crime stories.
Well sipping something smooth to take the edge off. So,
you guys, let's pour our glasses, lock your doors, and

(00:41):
let's uncork the truth behind some of the darkest of crimes.
And oh boy, is this one of those that's really
I'm sure it is, Yes, it is. Well, you guys,
I'm your host, Lama. You're probably familiar with me now,
and The Lovely Terry True Crime is out for the
next few weeks, so I'm bringing on some fabulous guest
co host tonight. I have the Lovely Lady and Gray

(01:04):
with me again.

Speaker 2 (01:06):
Yes, hi, oh y'all. I have had such a pleasant
time in the past couple of weeks. So despite this
difficult topic, I had to return to finish this disturbing
case because it took decades to reach resolution. The story
has been fascinating yet difficult to cover.

Speaker 1 (01:23):
Yeah, yeah, it has. It makes me very angry. It
makes you very angry too, Yes, maybe mad. It's between
I think everyone is just like Lama. Can you please
stop picking out these cases?

Speaker 2 (01:38):
Please rough?

Speaker 1 (01:40):
This one was rough, but you guys before we begin.
If you're watching us on YouTube, please hit the like
button the little thumbs up. Please subscribe to our channel
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Just click the join button. Pick which here works for you.

(02:03):
And if you're listening to this as a pide, please
leave a rating and a review or download as it
helps our little podcast noticed. All right, leading Gray, why
don't you tell us what we will be covering tonight.

Speaker 2 (02:17):
I'll be glad to tonight. We'll be covering part two
of the story of John List, who was a devout
Lutheran father and lived with his beautiful family and mother
in a quiet New Jersey mansion. That is, until he
murdered them all. It would take eighteen years. A Clay
Bust in an episode of America's Most wanted to finally

(02:40):
unmask the man who thought he could outsmart time and
get and get some long awaited justice. This is the
story of Faith control and one of the most cold
blooded family annihilators in American history.

Speaker 1 (02:54):
Agreed, and I'm sure I will have just as many
rants tonight as I did last week. I'm sure Terry
has rubbed off on me so much, so it'll be
in spirit of Terry. I'll make sure to have all
my rants. But before we get into that leading gray,
what are you drinking tonight?

Speaker 2 (03:12):
Well? I plan to have my normal tonic water with lime,
and I was going to add a splash of Canton Mcalbert,
but I don't have any crystal crystal light. So I
was gonna add this, oh to my tonic water. Okay,
that's Sonic Cheerry Limy flavoring, but you can. You can

(03:35):
get this up. I got it at Walmart, I think,
But instead I went Sonic and got the real thing.
So I got my rock forty four Cheerry limaylorious ice
from Sonic.

Speaker 1 (03:47):
Is it like a slushy? Is that what?

Speaker 2 (03:49):
Oh? No, it's got that bullet eyes.

Speaker 1 (03:52):
Oh okay.

Speaker 2 (03:54):
Don't you have Sonic up there in Ohio where you live?

Speaker 1 (03:56):
We do, yeah, but I've never I've never been to one,
now that I think about it.

Speaker 2 (04:02):
I also have a pretzel for later when we don't
watch Big Brothers.

Speaker 1 (04:05):
So pretzel. We love snacks. Well tonight, you guys, I
got a bottle of Barefoot moscato tonight. Nothing fancy, but
does the job for the price. And that's what both
feet picked up for me. No peach wine, like you
said he would earlier, jerk, I should fire him already.

Speaker 2 (04:26):
Well no, he brings you those V eight things and
they look pretty taste.

Speaker 1 (04:30):
That's true. Peach mango. I know you've been talking about
get them, but it's the peach mango. That orange pineapple
is good, but it has a bit of a there's
tea in it. That's where the coping from. And it
does have a hint of the tea and the aftertaste,
and I do not like tea. The other one that
the peach mango does not, so it was just fruit.

Speaker 2 (04:50):
That one, well, no, it has tea in it as
well as you just can't taste the aftertaste, isn't.

Speaker 1 (04:56):
Yeah, it doesn't, you don't.

Speaker 2 (04:58):
I'm going to try those this weekend. I'm gonna get
some of those and try that.

Speaker 1 (05:01):
I don't know if the tea is very prominent, but
again I don't like it, so other people may not
even notice that.

Speaker 2 (05:08):
I don't like tea, so that probably won't hurt me.

Speaker 1 (05:12):
Okay, let's get into Okay.

Speaker 2 (05:16):
When we left John emil List, he had just murdered
his entire family, his wife, three children, and his mother,
and left town for a new life with a zero
balanced ledger. He was free of his obligations and all
concerns for his family. He told himself their souls were safe,
he had seen to that, and he would join them

(05:37):
later on. He was sure God would forgive him of
his grievous sin, and if he repented and lived a
pass life from this moment on, he would be forgiven completely.
Sure he would see them again one day, That's what
he told himself.

Speaker 1 (05:55):
After cutting himself out of all the family photos, he
took the scraps of himself as well as this passport
and burned them and his weber grilled to prevent officials
from having a recent photograph for their wanted posters list.
After leaving the family car in long term parking at
the airport, took trains and buses in a non direct

(06:18):
path westward, even traveling back through his home state of Michigan,
using cash and fake names to buy tickets he wanted
to get as far as he could and had considered
a few different cities. Ugh, hmm, I had a stupid face.

Speaker 2 (06:36):
I know, he's just like punchable.

Speaker 3 (06:37):
In the.

Speaker 2 (06:40):
Immediately after the murders, officials believed that List would turn
himself in. The List himself was sure he would be
caught within a week or two. Both would be incorrect. Well,
they thought he would turn himself. Who turns themselves in?

Speaker 1 (06:55):
After that?

Speaker 2 (06:56):
Like? How often did that occur during this timeframe where
they're like, yeah, that's probably what's gonna happen. They just
turned themselves in after murdering their own family, you know,
I mean back then and the time we're talking about,
you could literally move like thirty fifty miles away and
start a whole new life.

Speaker 1 (07:12):
Nobody would know.

Speaker 2 (07:15):
But I don't think. I don't know. I don't know.
Unless they thought his money would run out because he
didn't really have that much.

Speaker 1 (07:23):
You know, Well, you know he's a broke bitch. We
know that. Yeah, we know a basic one.

Speaker 2 (07:28):
Yeah. Yeah, and well his pastor sent out a message
begging his lost congrement to contact him. No one expected
that search for John emil Les mess Burger would last
nearly eighteen years. I don't even think John Liss thought
that eighteen eight years ago.

Speaker 1 (07:48):
Right away, police wondered how a family could be missing
for an entire month without the school or church sending
anyone to investigate. It turns out that some people had
rung the doorbell fight getting no answer, they just left.
The only person who had cared enough to push it
further had been the drama coach. We won't stay on

(08:12):
him too long. He's kind of weird.

Speaker 2 (08:14):
No.

Speaker 1 (08:15):
He had asked a friend on the force to investigate
much earlier, but lacking evidence of something amiss, had been
unable to get any action.

Speaker 2 (08:28):
Investigators came up with one hundred and fifty pieces of
evidence from the crime scene in preparation for the prosecution
of the killer. Since his passport was missing, they suspected
he might have left the country. Even so, a dozen
officers guns ready kept watching the funeral service in burial side.
Alma was flown to Michigan, but the other four were

(08:49):
buried side by side in cheap metal caskets. Since there
was no money to give them a better funeral. Helen's
mother and sister insisted on burial, contrary to what List
had specified in his letters. List did not show up.

Speaker 1 (09:04):
I don't understand why they're in cheap metal casket, Like,
was money not raised or services donated in the wake
of a truly, truly horrific and tragic situation?

Speaker 2 (09:16):
Well, I mean the times nowadays, somebody would do a
go fund me and it'd be.

Speaker 1 (09:23):
They lived in a rich people neighborhood.

Speaker 2 (09:25):
Okay, I know, but back then people minded their own
business too, But that was one of the problems.

Speaker 1 (09:33):
You're right, You are right different times at different times.
So the FBI published a wanted flyer with an older
photo of List and a physical description. This is one
of my favorite parts of this whole freaking story. You
guys ready for this? Yeah, they also learned that he
suffered from severe hemorrhoids and was badly near sighted.

Speaker 2 (10:01):
That is not surprising, is it.

Speaker 1 (10:03):
No, No, I find them. I find the selling of
him having severe hemorrhoids hilarious because, I mean, no one
is looking at this guy's butt, like, why is this
the information you're putting out? And I think it was
just to humiliate him, and I applaud because it has
stood for decades. We're still talking about it, we're still

(10:26):
talking about its severe hemorrhoids. So the flyers were sent
to pharmacies and eye doctors all over the country, but
they refrained from sending flyers to the Lutheran Church, which
I don't know why.

Speaker 2 (10:42):
They didn't think of that. I mean, he's so religious,
it's crazy. But so they searched through list file and
discovered that he had rented a private post.

Speaker 1 (10:53):
Office box a PO box for the kiddos to receive pornography.
Mm hmmm, yeah, yeah, the pious man did have a
vice other than then murder. I'm just gonna say this,
aren't you kind of curious though, like what his pun was.
I mean, come on, oh, hello, Anthony Christopher. I hope

(11:19):
you're doing well. Saw the big announcement the other day.
Good for you.

Speaker 2 (11:26):
Anyway, I want to sell the details because I think
Terry uh will want to deliver some of that news
when she gets back.

Speaker 1 (11:33):
But I love seeing you. I hope you're doing great.
All right, So back to the story, John List had
simply vanished poof gone. No hemorrhots are being talked about,
nobody knows where he is.

Speaker 2 (11:50):
Nine months after the murders, on August thirtieth, nineteen seventy two,
breeze Noel burned it down. Now, numerous kids had been
out of the notorious abandoned house, but its destruction was
not due to their cattle seances, because of course they
had salances in that house. The cause of the fire
proved to be the work of an arsonist, a crime

(12:12):
that also went unsolved.

Speaker 1 (12:15):
Well, this makes me very sad because it was historic
and gorgeous, and I have a thing for those. It
makes you so sad it's not very anymore.

Speaker 2 (12:26):
One thing I didn't see, though, was that it had
become like a tour on a tour, you know, people
will drive by and look at it. So I wonder
if the neighbors didn't get tired of that and said
let's get rid of their house. I don't know, but anyway,
a new house was built on the property several years later,
and despite it being a new home with new homeowners,

(12:47):
the residents of Westfield called it the list House.

Speaker 1 (12:52):
Oh that's what it looks like now. I mean, that's nice,
but a nice place.

Speaker 2 (12:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (12:57):
I like the other one better, to be honest, But
what are you gonna do? Yes, Michael, you are listening
to the Lovely Lady and Greg who's off also one
of our mods if you guys don't know, But she's
a mod, she's a researcher, she's a rider. Now she's
a guess co host. So I love that. Ye Now

(13:21):
John was not. I'm sorry. John was now a man
on the run and he wanted to live his new life.
He of course grew a mustache because disguises, and wore
a hat low on his head to hide his features.
M the good old mustache trick. Gonna confuse everybody with
that he trade? Maybe it was for the porn.

Speaker 2 (13:51):
Y?

Speaker 1 (13:52):
Oh is that an ed hardy? Had he would? He would?
So he traded in his suit and tie for more
casual clothes. He began to look for a new place
to call home and researched several different cities in the West.

Speaker 2 (14:08):
I love this part. Phoenix was considered, but he dismissed
it as too hot. No lives detected there. I would
think it was too hot too. San Francisco was also considered,
but he dismissed that lovely city due to too many hippies.
It's damn hippiest because, of course there were too many

(14:29):
hippies for John Lynz right, so he settled on Denver, Colorado.

Speaker 1 (14:34):
I mean, Denver is gorgeous, so he did pick a
good spot. I love Colorado, it's so beautiful. So he
knew he had to lay low, so he rented a
room under his assumed name of Robert P. Clark Boring,
and then went to a local Social Security Administration office.
He walked in off the street, claimed he had lost

(14:56):
his card and needed a new one. He completed a
piece of PA paper, signed his name, and a few
minutes later he was presented with his new card. The
simpler times, don't even get me started on that process,
because it has been vane lately.

Speaker 2 (15:11):
So life in nineteen seventy one, We're getting a new
ID was as simple as that. Why without twenty four
to seven news coverage, CCTV cameras on every street corner,
and technology tracing every step he took made it much
easier to disappear than it would be today. Not to mention,
he didn't have to contend with true client crime sleuths

(15:33):
salothing all day every day as we are wont to do.

Speaker 1 (15:38):
Like us, because we're nosy, we will find you. John
emil List went into that office and Robert P. Clark emerged.
Bob Clark took a job as a line cook at
the Holiday Inn. Yes, yes, you heard correctly. A line

(15:59):
cook is exactly what he should have done before he
murdered his family. He took an unglamorous job to pay
the bills. It wasn't that hard, was it. John.

Speaker 2 (16:12):
Look at that nice pool there though, he use that pool.
So he laid low. He didn't spend a lot of money,
nor did he make friends. He paid cash for a trailer. Also,
for the first time in his life, he did not
attend church. He felt it too risky. As his Lutheran

(16:35):
face was well known in Westfield, New Jersey. He had
a pretty low key life for a few years.

Speaker 1 (16:42):
Now we need him to take a quick break because
this has to be mentioned, not because it is credible,
but because it is funny as hell. So in nineteen
seventy two lists, remember he's on this wanted list list list.
I can't believe I just signed it anyway, So he

(17:03):
was also proposed as a suspect in the dB Cooper
air piracy case. Because of the timing of the murders
and his disappearance, which was two weeks prior to the
air lane. Jack came because this is wild.

Speaker 2 (17:20):
Though. Now, if you don't know who dB Cooper is,
because well you are young, here is a brief synopsis.
In nineteen seventy one, a man using the name Dan
Cooper hijacked plane, demanded two hundred thousand dollars ransom and parachutes,
then jumped from the aircraft moonflight over Washington State, vanishing

(17:41):
without a trace. Part of the ransom was found in
nineteen eighty, but the rest and Cooper himself were never
seen again. The FBI closed the case in twenty sixteen.
But it's still kind of wild, so a rabbit trail
search might be worth your while later.

Speaker 1 (17:57):
I mean, it is a fun crazy like that doesn't
look like Lisz really, I don't know, so, No, I
don't think so. A few reasons for the suspicions were
multiple matches to the hijackers description and the reasoning by
law enforcement officials that a fugitive accused of mass murder

(18:20):
has nothing to lose. Well true, yes, but.

Speaker 2 (18:24):
Well after his capture, Liz was questioned about this, but
he denied any involvement in the Cooper case. His name
is still occasionally mentioned in Cooper articles and documentaries. There
was no direct evidence to implicate him. The FBI no
longer considers him a suspect, but sure he had nothing
to lose. But John Lisz jumped out of an airplane.

Speaker 1 (18:46):
Come on, I mean, that is a wild I did
not know until this story that those events were only
two weeks apart.

Speaker 2 (18:54):
I didn't realize either wild news cycle.

Speaker 1 (18:57):
That must have been for the people in the seventies,
like what yeah, what is happening? Fascinating on both of
those Well, Eventually, surprisingly, he began to make friends. He
shaved off his secret mustache and helped prepare tax returns.

(19:18):
Several years later, he went back to full time accounting,
and by nineteen seventy six he decided he was ready
to go back to church, and he joined Saint Paul
Lutheran Church in Denver.

Speaker 2 (19:31):
That's a pretty church, It's very pretty. The following year,
he acquired a driver's license again nineteen seventy two seventy three.
It's easy to get, and bought a car he used
to drive old in a firm members of his church
places is that?

Speaker 1 (19:51):
Did he has a car? Did he have an orange beetle?

Speaker 2 (19:56):
I don't know, cap'n did that? So what do you think?

Speaker 1 (19:58):
Oh, oh, we know beatles in the seventies of people
who kill is not great.

Speaker 2 (20:05):
Actually, actually had a friend in college who had one
of those weeks. Now that I'll look at it, it's
like maybe I'm he was a little creepy, was he?
Because yep, yep, yep. He then became part of the
church's finance council because of course he did as he
realized he would not be caught. He grew into his
new life, and he now decided he was ready to

(20:26):
start dating.

Speaker 1 (20:28):
Oh God, could you imagine Dolores. Dolores was thirty five
years old and described as reserved, a bit indecisive, and
a bit of a worrier, so she was perfect for
John List. They met at a Lutheran gathering for singles

(20:51):
in nineteen seventy seven. They actually kind of look a leg.

Speaker 2 (20:58):
Oh Bill, get that out of my head, all right?

Speaker 1 (21:02):
Sorry to If you wind YouTube, I can see the
Sledge show. So they actually dated for eight years before
they married in nineteen eighty five, and then John as
Bob Clark, moved into her condo in Aurora, Colorado. Their
next door neighbor was none other than Wanda Flannery. Then

(21:25):
neighbor who would ultimately bring an end to John list
double life. Yeah, Wada, there's a Wanda with their cat.
Look at that cat, A cat I knew.

Speaker 2 (21:38):
I liked to Wanda. The Lords and Wanda were described
as best friends, always at one or the other's home,
having coffee, chearing gossip. Wanda was described as fun and
a bit of the grandmother everyone would love to have.
For some reason, I see a mix of Lucy and
Ethel were still Magnolia's here with these two. John's soon

(22:00):
found out though, that even if he could temper out
run his past and the things he had done, he
could never outrun himself.

Speaker 1 (22:09):
No, no, Surely, after his marriage, List was fired surprise
from a job for failing to keep up with company changes,
and also was asked to leave his posts as a
Sunday school teacher because he was too strict and demanding
of the students. What no surprise, Okay. His attempts to

(22:32):
become an independent financial consultant also failed. It seems that
his former life was repeating himself. It turns out John,
you're the problem. You are the problem problem.

Speaker 2 (22:47):
Yeah. He had a difficult time finding work in a
poor economy at his kliend age of fifty five, and
Delores began to regret twining her life to his, imagine
that she grew continued us and spoke of leaving him
as long as Liszt sat alone each day at home.
After an unsuccessful outing, his neighbor Wanda Flannery, got to

(23:10):
know him pretty well, and it would not be long
before he regretted allowing her into his life.

Speaker 1 (23:17):
A series of bad things happened in the life of
List and his second wife. He was once again unemployed
and unemployable. Their neighborhood deteriorated and property declined in value,
and their dog was Sadness was beaten to death outside
their gate.

Speaker 2 (23:38):
Now, I don't want that.

Speaker 1 (23:39):
I don't like that either. I was going to ask
more questions and I was like, no, you know what, No,
I don't. I don't need to. I'll live blissfully aware
that please and thank you. But anyway, something had to
change now.

Speaker 2 (23:54):
Wanda Flannery had a particular hobby that ultimately to the
end of his running. She liked to buy tabloids. They
came home each week with several of them to entertain herself.

Speaker 1 (24:06):
I want to be bussies with Wanda so.

Speaker 2 (24:09):
Much tabloids are a lot of fun back there.

Speaker 1 (24:14):
Now you just have the Internet, which is really just tabloids.

Speaker 2 (24:17):
It really is.

Speaker 1 (24:18):
But I remember being little seeing those while they were
check out at the grower, and that one that one,
and my mom would be like, those things aren't true.

Speaker 2 (24:28):
Don't read those. It's not even true stuff. They're just
making making news, so people buy them. And now here
we are internet are will people just believe anything they
see on the Internet. Will She was ahead of her time,
wasn't you? But yeah. In February nineteen eighty seven, she

(24:52):
looked through an issue of World Weekly News and spotted
an article about a man, John List, who had murdered
his entire family.

Speaker 1 (25:03):
That boy.

Speaker 2 (25:07):
Many years earlier and hand gotten way.

Speaker 1 (25:10):
I asked the boy just real quick with the tabloids.
I don't know if it's still on HBO match, but
there's a documentary about the National Inquirer. I believe it is,
and it's fascinating. I recommend everybody go watch it. It
was very, very, very interesting, and I watched weird documentaries
all the time, but that was my my faith anyway.

(25:33):
So it stuck out to Wanda that the photo of
this killer looked remarkably like her neighbor Bob Clark.

Speaker 2 (25:42):
Even their odd habits were the same. She glanced up from.

Speaker 1 (25:46):
The newspaper to see her neighbor out on the porch
and fell at once that she was looking at the
man who had committed the perfect murder. I don't, I don't.
I don't know how it's a perfect murder when they
know who did it. But okay, yeah, She read the
article through again and wondered to herself about the possibilities.

(26:08):
Like List, Clark usually wore a code and tie both
and both were religious men who taught Sunday school. Hmmm.

Speaker 2 (26:18):
Then she read the ipiot description of the scar that
List had behind his right ear through a mastoid ity.
Bob Clark has just the same scar. He was an
accountantuck List and from Michigan. Both had chronic money problems,
had travel holding jobs, and seemed to overspend.

Speaker 1 (26:39):
Hmmm, so maybe all the financial problems weren't all because
of Helena after all. Oh, look, before we move on,
look who it is. It's the lovely Terry issue crime.
Hey babes, Harry, I hope you're doing good. We're not
burning the channel down.

Speaker 2 (26:56):
So yeah, keep it safe for you glad to see it, Babs,
I too detect a pattern here. He just yeah. Bob
also looked several years older than Eh claimed, just old
enough to be John List.

Speaker 1 (27:16):
So Wanda wondered if she should tell Dolores about her suspicions.
I mean, it's a tough choice. I mean, surely Dolores
knew more about the man's background and could assure her
that Clark was legitimate. So she took the paper over
to Dolores's house when John had left for a temporary job.
He had somehow managed to find he probably just at

(27:38):
the train station, and showed it to her. She urged Dolores,
who was mystified, to show it to Bob and see
how he reacted.

Speaker 2 (27:52):
Delores said she would, but then tossed the paper out,
so Wanda said nothing further. Then Bob found a job
in Richmond, Virginia, and he knew packed up and moved
to the East. Wanda remained uneasy. I don't know how
you go to your bestie and be like, oh, by
the way, Tolores, I'm pretty sure her husband for the

(28:13):
last fifteen whatever years, killed his whole family and is
one of the most wanted men in America and then
be like, yeah, you should show him this and see
what happens. Wanda, girl, what, how do you think that
was a good plane?

Speaker 1 (28:32):
Just could you imagine?

Speaker 2 (28:34):
I guess Wanda thought, you know, if Nick be she
could take him, even came after her. I don't know,
it's hard.

Speaker 1 (28:41):
That was all crazy. Yeah, Well, while looking for a
job what he spent most of his life doing. It
sounds like to me he found himself in Virginia interviewing
for jobs doing tax returns, and was ultimately hired by
a downtown Richmond firm thirty six years after he had

(29:03):
met his first wife in the state while he was
still in the army. Ooh, it's never a good idea
to probably go back, but we'll see what happens. It
was sixteen years since the murders, sixteen years, and now
he was back East. John was sixty two, but told

(29:23):
everyone that he was fifty six. Okay, So I was.

Speaker 2 (29:29):
Just looking at that office building. It looks like a
save in new office building, doesn't it.

Speaker 1 (29:33):
Of course, you don't know.

Speaker 2 (29:35):
That's going to say, you don't even know what that
looks like. I just don't know how he keeps losing
all these tax jobs, Like, how can you keep getting
fired from these? I don't understand.

Speaker 1 (29:45):
I know you have experienced, but like, I just don't
get it.

Speaker 2 (29:49):
No, I don't think it was his work. I think
it was his I meant, don't have to be you know,
you don't have to be like a salesman's boisterous and all,
but you know you got to be to talk to people.
It's a little bit. You do have clients. Okay, true,
you do have clients, So it's trip. So John was

(30:09):
of course a commergion. Commergion at work. I even wrote
that word in and I can't even say it.

Speaker 1 (30:15):
Curmudgeon, curmudgeon, thank you with the assistance. Yeah, work.

Speaker 2 (30:22):
Easily made grumpy. I can't figure that out. He didn't
seem the type it all to get grunty about nothing.
He refused to carpool with his coworkers, and he was
insist when the paper towels ran out in the bathrooms.
He expressed his displeasure to all, but since he was
a low level employee at the firmer only could do
was complain. Here's the thing, John, take your own paper

(30:44):
towels to work. I'm even sell them for a dollar apiece.

Speaker 1 (30:47):
You know, make some money that he's not gonna do it.

Speaker 2 (30:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (30:55):
So he had run in a room when he first
moved to Virginia, and then soon Dolores joined him. That's
a nice house, Oh, that is it is. It is
very cute. Now they didn't have a lot of money,
but they soon found a home an unincorporated mid Lothian

(31:16):
m sorry whoever lives there outside of Richmond. It was
an unensuming ranch on a call to stacked in a
planned community called brander Mill. Again, I don't know how
these people don't have any money at their age, like
I just.

Speaker 2 (31:31):
I know at their age. Yeah, I don't either. They
should have I know.

Speaker 1 (31:36):
It was a tough time.

Speaker 2 (31:37):
Right, but he didn't have a marketable skill. He just
couldn't market it's, you know, yeah. Reverend Joseph Vote described
the couple as shah and somewhat retiring, not extroverted, but
seemed devoted to each other. They attended church every week,

(31:58):
and Bob especially seemed to take his faith seriously. He
had also told the reverend that he had taught Sunday
school when he lived in New Jersey. It appears by
this time John living his ball wasn't trying to hide
his past life in New Jersey, right, Why would you
say that nobody knows?

Speaker 1 (32:21):
Oh well, he's not the smartest now. Jerome Kendall, another
friend in Virginia, said, nothing stood out about Bob Clark.
Oh there's your bro, not at all what I thought.

Speaker 2 (32:34):
Jerome was gonna okay, and.

Speaker 1 (32:39):
Looking at that, all that crazy hair and the beard,
all right he was.

Speaker 2 (32:44):
He described him as brown, and my immediate thought was, oh, brown,
because John's a piece of shit. But no, no, apparently
that's not what that means. Kendall said, if Bob Clark
wore a brown suit and was in a brown paneled room,
he might fade into the background. Though I'm sure Kendall

(33:06):
would agree with me on the piece of ship.

Speaker 1 (33:07):
Hard I do, but you do? Oh look at that.
He also got the impression that Bob and Dolores preferred
to keep to themselves. He also mentioned that on occasion,
the man he knew as Bob Clark seemed a bit
nervous and looked over his shoulder frequently. Still, for many years,

(33:30):
John List, living as Bob Clark, and his second wife, Dolores,
continued on with their simple and private lives in peace.

Speaker 2 (33:42):
Just moving on with the life. Meanwhile, back in New Jersey,
all this time has been going on. Detective Jeffrey Paul
Himmel had worked the case hard for years. In finally
nineteen eighty five, he turned to the extreme of talking
with a sackic I'm not going to go there except

(34:03):
to say it was a desperate move for a desperate
man who had followed every lead, sent out numerous aged
photos of John List, and felt he had nothing to lose.
The crimes were fourteen years old and the case was cold.
The psycha gave him no information that led to anything.

Speaker 1 (34:20):
Surprise. You know how confident this man is.

Speaker 2 (34:24):
Look at that picture.

Speaker 1 (34:25):
What he's wearing, a striped suit with a polka dot tie.
I lot the tie too. I think we know that.

Speaker 2 (34:35):
Part isn't probably o natural, But look at himself. He
looks very serreous. Oh yeah, but.

Speaker 1 (34:41):
That striped suit and polka dot tie is up to things. Yeah, anyway. So,
for example, this is what the psychic person had to say.
She said, John List didn't fly sorry DP Cooper enthusiast,
but he traveled a rossland when he fled, and that

(35:02):
he was most likely in the southwest. Now this sounds
spot on, but I'm a cynic and I see this
as just good guess work based on information the detective
provided her from the case. I mean also, if you
want to get far away, where do you go? You
go west? So she added that List might also return

(35:27):
to the cemetery on birthdays. So Hummel actually staked out
the cemetery on John's sixtieth birthday, as well as the
birthdays of his children. Of course, pos John List didn't
show up because he wasn't feeling any guilt or remorse.

Speaker 2 (35:49):
The case was soon transferred from Hummel to Captain Frank Marinka.
This doesn't seem to have anything to do with the soak,
But are I know? I like this guy. He's got
that Stephen Queen thing going there, doesn't he? But it
was just a transfer of a normal cold case and

(36:11):
needing fresh eyes. The Crown was now nearly two decades
old with little hope of being solved. Marinka was not
as willing to give up on it as one of
Flannery had been. Something new was on the horizon and
he wanted to take advantage. And he is that car.

Speaker 1 (36:28):
Car's pretty awesome.

Speaker 2 (36:29):
He is the bullet he looks kind of he's got
a Stephen the Queen thing going. And also I see
like James Rockford for some odd reason from Rocker.

Speaker 1 (36:37):
Johnson and the shoes.

Speaker 2 (36:39):
Must be I don't know.

Speaker 1 (36:42):
Well, we don't want to spend a lot of time
talking about John Walsh. I mean, I could bitterly talk
about him for hours, so I'm going to refrain because
he would absolutely be multiple episodes series of his own
and we all got time for that. Okay.

Speaker 2 (36:58):
John Walsh isn't icon in the true crime world, but
he got his role in the most devastating way.

Speaker 1 (37:05):
Now, please research this man. Leader. I promise you won't
be sorry if you don't know who he was, because
you haven't.

Speaker 2 (37:13):
Been around as long as some of us. Some of us,
but John Walsh is amazing and fantastic. After the tragic
abduction and murder of his own son in nineteen eighty one,
as Adam Walsh became a fierce advocate for missing children.

(37:33):
He used the platform he was given a TV movie
about his son's case to publicize other missing children's photos,
leading to thirty seven missing children being located from a
movie a television movie. With this success, he realized the
power of using the media as his battlefield, and luckily

(37:54):
a Fox executive agreed. Oh I guess you guys, if
you're don't know the story of his son, I know
I would never be able to tell that Story's awful.

Speaker 1 (38:04):
It's awful.

Speaker 2 (38:05):
But let's talk about one of my two favorite shows
for my childhood.

Speaker 1 (38:10):
And they're both gonna be mentioned tonight. I think the
first one. Oh wait, it is the other one. Maybe anyway,
we'll talk about this one. Maybe the other one doesn't
pop up all talk about at the end. So America's
Most Wanted was a television show about serious crimes fugitives

(38:31):
that enlisted the aid of its viewers to help identify
potential suspects, and.

Speaker 2 (38:37):
That is John Walsh.

Speaker 1 (38:39):
They dramatized the crime and then provided what information they
could to assist those who might be living near someone
who is wanted for a crime. Each weekly segment soon
averaged about six thousand calls, which is amazing. This is
crazy Internet, you got Yeah, that's a all right. So

(39:01):
some of these tips led to arrest of nearly one
per broadcast. That's amazing statistics. That doesn't sound like a lot,
but it is. And in nineteen eighty eight, Westfield Captain
Moranka decided to get his unsolved case on the air.
I just realized, my other show's not going to be

(39:23):
talked about because it's not a mystery of what well.

Speaker 2 (39:25):
But you can mention it later. I will. However, the
List case was considered too old for Maria's most wanted
The television show initially turned it down. Then the executive producer,
Michael Linder, was scheduled to speak at a law enforcement
conference in Delaware, so Captain Marinka in Detective Hami went

(39:47):
taking the List files with them. They approached Linder with
the case.

Speaker 1 (39:53):
Linder was originally hesitant because of the age of the crime.
It had been, you know, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen years, but
they showed him the case file and crime scene photos.
When he saw the photos of the children laid out
in what was obvious premeditation, he changed his mind. And

(40:14):
the show had also been under pressure from the FBI
to showcase older cases. I don't know want FBI is
pressuring them, but okay.

Speaker 2 (40:24):
At the time, John List was the FBI's third oldest
missing fugitive, and Linda thought this would be a great
test case for the show. So the more Lander thought
about it, the more he found it all around captivating
and ordered a segment on it. It seemed to the
tech detectives the last possible shot they had to ever

(40:47):
bring John lizz to justice, and all of the witnesses
were still and available.

Speaker 1 (40:54):
Which is that's a lot.

Speaker 2 (40:56):
I mean, that's kind of been heard of when things
go in solved long period of time. But you guys,
there was one problem. No one had a recent photo
of List that had been one of the most important
factors in other arrests.

Speaker 1 (41:13):
Right, they put up their little photo have you seen
this guy? And that usually helps, but he burned all
this photos so they didn't really have one. The one
they did have of John List was nineteen years old Linder. However,
new Freak Bender, a forensic sculptor and photographer in Philadelphia.

(41:35):
Bender was able to use clay to reconstruct faces of
decomposed bodies, and he might be able to show what
List would look like many years later, so he agreed
to do a bust for the show. These are like
my favorite people evers, I don't know how they do it.

Speaker 2 (41:51):
They're just amazing.

Speaker 1 (41:52):
It's amazing, it's amazing in your computers.

Speaker 2 (41:56):
You guys, Yeah, this is all done with Clay's crazy.

Speaker 1 (42:00):
It's fascinating.

Speaker 2 (42:02):
And Bender was also called a conjurer in clay because
he could conjure the face in three D. I mean,
that's different, so much better than a photograph. And he
would be sent skulls of unidentified people, mostly children, and
he would recreate their heads to assist authorities in identifying them.

(42:22):
In the list case, Bender had just th reeal photos
and needed to make a guy in his mid forties
into a sixty three year old man. And so he
did what creative people do. He got creative, and he
enlisted some expert help.

Speaker 1 (42:40):
Bender worked with an anthropologist on the normal aging process,
on phone structure and skinfolds, and a criminal psychologist, Richard Walter,
on personality characteristics that might show up in his physical features.
They figured that since Liszt had lived such a rigid life,
he would not have changed that much. Aside from being

(43:02):
pawnchier with dripping skin, he may have a pronounced, receding hairline,
he would still have the scar behind his ear, and
he would still dress conservatively. Bender also included the horn
rim classes and the final touch of the clay bust
made by Bender. Was he turning down of the corners

(43:24):
of List's mouth, not of guilt or sadness, but out
of fear of getting caught, and also just because he's miserable.
He's a miserable person. And I think that's actually fairly good.
Some people don't think so. It's it's impressive for not
knowing anything.

Speaker 2 (43:41):
It's pretty good. It's creepy good, actually it really is. Yes.
And I think that the formal clothing, you know, the time,
the suit, I think it makes it. I think that
was a big key for that well. The show aired
on May nineteen eighty nine. John Walls, program's host, introduced

(44:03):
the segment as New Jersey's most famous murder case. The
story ran for ten minutes to an estimate of twenty
two million viewers.

Speaker 1 (44:14):
That's wild.

Speaker 2 (44:16):
Twenty too many people at one time saw that bust.
If Liz was out there, someone would have seen him, surely. Now.
John List himself generally watched the program, ling the challenge
of figuring out the crimes.

Speaker 1 (44:29):
Go fucking figure yeah, figures now.

Speaker 2 (44:32):
However, that night, Hendeloris went to a church social, so
he missed the show, but back in New Jersey, Patty's
ballroom singing companion Susan Cousins was watching. She said, when
she saw the show, she was frozen in time as
a grieving sixteen year old.

Speaker 1 (44:50):
I bet, I bet Now back in Colorado, our homegirl,
Wanda Flannery was also watching with her daughter and son,
and it is creepy but amazing. So she had seen
the thing right, but to her, the bus did not

(45:13):
look like Robert Clark, her former neighbor. Nevertheless, though she
still felt that she had made the right connection, she
knew she had to act. If only to say to Lores,
she had her son in law call the phone number
provided on the show and give them the clerk's new
address in Virginia. I probably would have made somebody else

(45:34):
call from here. I'd been like, oh if he when
we need you to call this number, Okay, I can't
do it, but I need you to do it for me.

Speaker 2 (45:40):
He said, yeah. For long day, stepping up girl. Our
three hundred calls came in about the list case that evening.
Just that night, fielded by a FI agents now. Bernard
Tracy was a Westfield detective who was nineteen years old
when the murders happened, and he had worked on the

(46:00):
case at some point over the years, and he was
at the station when the tips came in, but he
missed that call, so it was sent onto the FBI
and then forwarded to the Richmond office.

Speaker 1 (46:13):
Isn't it a wild how that happens.

Speaker 2 (46:15):
I wonder if he'd got in the call, if he
would have done something that not. But it's still it's
still work out.

Speaker 1 (46:22):
It's funny. I'm working on another story at the moment,
and there's similarities between that one and this one, and
I've been getting them a little confused because they both
involved these big shows and you know, calls, tips getting missed,
and it's just it's interesting. So anyway, two agents checked

(46:44):
out the leads that Thursday, June one, nineteen eighty nine.
The Clerk address was first on the list, and agent
Kevin August approached the house and knocked on the door.
He heard a vacuum being turned off and a woman
opened the door, Robert P. Clerk. He asked, he is
at work? Delores told them the.

Speaker 2 (47:09):
Two agents asked to come in and speak with her. Obviously,
she didn't think they were the ice cream men in
the ice cream truck. She invited them in.

Speaker 1 (47:20):
I just got that.

Speaker 2 (47:22):
Sorry slow, I thought I missed it. Anyway, she invited
them in. She didn't line say she was her sister,
and they showed her the FBI flyer on john List.
They asked if this could be her husband. She paled
noticeably and bean a tremble as she tried to read
the flyer. She admitted there was a resemblance, but denied

(47:42):
that this man could be her husband. She then began
to cry. She offered a wedding photo, and when they
looked at it, they knew there was no doubt this
was their man.

Speaker 1 (47:55):
He literally hadn't changed at all. No, he had all yes.

Speaker 2 (48:01):
Here and it's grayer, that's all.

Speaker 1 (48:04):
No.

Speaker 2 (48:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (48:06):
So they asked about the scar, where her husband was,
from what he did for a living, and it all
added up. One agent stayed behind and the other drove
off to Bob Clark's place of business, alerting to other
agents to meet him there. They entered the offices and
saw Bob Clark coming down the hall with the xerox

(48:28):
machine with papers in his hand, and guess what, he
didn't look surprised at all.

Speaker 3 (48:34):
No.

Speaker 2 (48:36):
They identified themselves as if BI and asked for his identification,
asked him several identifying questions, which he answered affirmatively, and
then they asked if he was John emil LIUs. No,
he said without hesitation. His response was too quick, as
in practiced mentally for this moment. He showed no annoyance
or curiosity, which in itself is suspicious. What are you

(49:01):
talking about?

Speaker 1 (49:02):
I do feel kind of bad for like his wife,
like Dolores, Like could you imagine like wait what.

Speaker 2 (49:08):
I know she would be like no, it looks like
but no, it can't be there, you know, Yeah, I
can feel sorry for her.

Speaker 1 (49:16):
They searched him for a weapon and then said your
John List, aren't you. He told them he was Robert Clark.
Now red blotches broke out on his face, which we
talked about in the first episode. So August cuffed him
and told him he would have to come to their
office for fingerprinting, and he passively allowed them to do

(49:39):
whatever they needed to do, and he never even want
asked what he was charged with. And that's how you
know how you know, that's how you know that they
are that because they're not any one of us.

Speaker 2 (49:53):
I'd be like, what the what what did I do? Yeah?
Fighting it and yeah, he just went on wrong with him. Well,
fingerprints proved that List had finally been arrested for the
murders of five people, his own family. He requested a
court appointed a lawyer, which was denied. He was held

(50:13):
without bail. The Laurus arranged for a lawyer, David Peaball,
to compose a statement for the press. She repeatedly told
reporters and anyone else who would listen to her husband
was not John List and had not done these terrible things.

Speaker 1 (50:27):
Oh sweet sweet to Lauris.

Speaker 2 (50:30):
I know. I think there's just a mental block there
of not wanting to accept that reality.

Speaker 1 (50:36):
And I don't blame her.

Speaker 2 (50:37):
That's normal my opinion.

Speaker 1 (50:39):
Yeah, Like, how do you even wrap your het around
such a thing? You know?

Speaker 2 (50:44):
Really? Oh there he is, look at that, But he
looks a lot like the bus. The glasses are the same,
Yeah they are. Like did you take his classes, off
of his faith, off that bust and put him on
this for this smuke shot?

Speaker 1 (50:58):
I kind of wonder, wonder so Liszt pleaded not juty
and his veil was set at a million dollars.

Speaker 2 (51:09):
He wasn't going anywhere.

Speaker 1 (51:11):
Anywhere, you know, Like this is nine that's a buttlad.
It was bail, you know. So he was remanded into
state custody pending an extradition hearing to New Jersey. Surprisingly,
he agreed to be extradited, but insisted that he'd be
allowed to return to New Jersey as Bob Clark, even

(51:34):
though he had been unable to prove that he existed
as Robert Clark before nineteen seventy one. At the end
of June, he was in New Jersey again for the
first time since he fled in nineteen seventy one. He
was now eligible for a court appointed attorney, and Elijah
Miller was appointed. Look tall he is.

Speaker 2 (51:59):
He was tall?

Speaker 1 (52:00):
He is tall. Yeah, I didn't realize that's all he was.

Speaker 2 (52:03):
Well. The guest defense attorney, Elijah Miller, pressed for a
change of venue and suppression of the confession letter. Remember
that was the five facilary he wrote to his pastor
eight seventy and half years ago. But in order to
do this he had to drop the insistence that the
state proved that he was in fact John List, not

(52:23):
Robert Peter Clark. Both requests to the court change the
venue and suppression of the letter were denied on top
excess that List looks like an Ostrich, and it's so true. Yeah,
not John List.

Speaker 1 (52:45):
Yes, John List looks like an Ostrich.

Speaker 2 (52:47):
Yeah, I just look like.

Speaker 1 (52:50):
Animals sometimes and you feel like that's him. He would
put his hand head in the sand anyway. So in
his opening statement, Miller conceded that List had done what
he was accused of doing. On November ninth, nineteen seventy one,
his attorney presented that List had a fragmented, obsessive, compulsive

(53:12):
personality and was ill equipped a function in the face
of overwhelming difficulties. He had acted he believed for the
salvation of his family in a godless world that no
longer made sense to him. He's doing his job, all right.

Speaker 2 (53:32):
Yeah, he's.

Speaker 1 (53:34):
Court appointed attorney. All right.

Speaker 2 (53:37):
We can only work with what they've got, which in
this case was nothing. Eleanor Clark, one of the prosecutors,
described him as cruel and calculating to the point of evil.
He wanted a new life, so he seemed closed the
accounts on the old woman and left it behind. He
had voluntarily committed the murders with full knowledge and with malice.

(53:59):
The face to Brand's ballistics reports, autopsies in his own
letters indubted him beyond shadow of a doubt. At the
same he's a happy woman. He's happy.

Speaker 1 (54:13):
They have the same hairstyle.

Speaker 2 (54:18):
Oh boy, they do anything.

Speaker 1 (54:20):
Yes, now. The defense entered information that Helen List had
been suffering from excuse me, syphilis acquired from her first husband,
John had found out about that in nineteen sixty nine,
after she has successfully hidden that from him for most
of their marriage. This piece of information failed to have

(54:43):
any mitigating effect. I don't know why it would, right,
this is Marvin.

Speaker 2 (54:49):
I'm just I was laughing about Marvin Taylor better husband.
But it's a pretty low bar. That why it is
a low bar. Let's see. The prosecutor brought in a
psychiatrist who rebutted the Defensi's idea that List had a
character disorder. I don't know, I'm not sure I agree

(55:14):
with that, but a situational depression from midlife crisis. He
talked about how Liz believed that if he killed his family,
he was sending them to heaven, but he could not
kill himself because that meant he would go to hell.
He claimed that once he started killing, there was no
more control. Once he had fled, he put it behind him.

(55:35):
And finally reached the point where he only thought about
what he had done on the anniversary of their deaths,
so he only had to think about him once a
year because they all died at the same time. Won't
this guy got this guy?

Speaker 1 (55:50):
The trial on five counts of murder in the first
degree lasted seven days. That's not really not surprising because
he had already like admitted to all of it. So
I don't think they need a whole lot of witnesses.

Speaker 2 (56:08):
Probably just place and those leaders and I see it.

Speaker 1 (56:11):
I mean it's still quick though. Seven days for this
kind of case is pretty sure.

Speaker 2 (56:16):
But probably not nineteen ninety. I was gonna say that
was My next thing was that on April twelfth.

Speaker 1 (56:22):
Ninety we didn't have like, well, I.

Speaker 2 (56:26):
Don't know, we did have groundbreaking new technology DNA. You
guys watched Forensic Files.

Speaker 1 (56:34):
They say that in every episode of for.

Speaker 2 (56:38):
All like two hundred episodes, round breaking new technology.

Speaker 1 (56:44):
Anyway, sorry guys. On April twelfth, nineteen ninety, List was
found guilty on all counts. Surprise.

Speaker 2 (56:54):
This was less than one year after America's Most Wanted
episode had aired on May twenty first, nineteen eighty nine.
He was given life in prison five consecutive terms, and
he would never be released.

Speaker 3 (57:10):
Good John and the Lizard would be eternally synonymous with
concepts of selfishness, horror, and even He is a man
who could coldly, calculatingly and cunningly conceive and carry out
a cowardly plan to assassinate each of his three children that.

Speaker 1 (57:31):
Look at him like right there, he just seems angry
that this is happening to him.

Speaker 2 (57:35):
I know, it's like, how dare you kind of you know,
I have it all worked out with God, so you
don't need to worry about this for something, and things
about me disgusting. I think that it's interesting where you
were talking about it being the trialing only last than
seven days. I think it's more fascinating that it took
less than a year after he was arrested, because well

(57:56):
nowadays it takes like three years. Now.

Speaker 1 (58:00):
He must not have waived a speed trial though that
I'll do it.

Speaker 2 (58:03):
Well, that could be he may not have trying to
predict the next sea word. No, we're not going to okay.
We have talked several times during this two part series
about the letter that List had left for his pastor.
This letter was basically his confession and used against him

(58:25):
a trial as evidence. After his conviction, he appealed his
verdict because everybody gets rit to do that study of
this letter being a confidential communication who his pastor should
not have been entered as evidence. He lost his appeal.
Here's a partial text of the letter John wrote his
pastor in New Jersey after he murdered every member of

(58:47):
his family.

Speaker 1 (58:48):
Right, are we ready? Guys? Are you prepared for a
bunch of Lana side eye? Because it's going to happen.
It's coming. It's gonna be a lot of eye rolls
inside eye. All right, dear Pastor Renwinkle, I am sorry
to add this additional burden to your work. He means

(59:08):
murdering his whole family.

Speaker 2 (59:11):
I know that what has been done is wrong from
all that I have been taught, and that any reasons
that I might give will not make it right.

Speaker 1 (59:19):
But you are the one person that, while not condoning this,
will at least possibly understand why I felt that I
had to do this.

Speaker 2 (59:32):
What suck.

Speaker 1 (59:38):
No one.

Speaker 2 (59:42):
I wasn't earning anywhere near enough to support us. Everything
I tried seemed to fall to pieces true. We could
have gone bankrupt and maybe gone on welfare.

Speaker 1 (59:57):
No, but that.

Speaker 2 (59:59):
Brings me to my next point. Obviously, knowing the type
of location one would have to live in, plus the
environment for the children, plus the effect on them knowing
they were on welfare was just more than I thought
they could and should endure. I know that they were
willing to cut back, but this involved a lot more

(01:00:22):
than that.

Speaker 1 (01:00:23):
Are you.

Speaker 2 (01:00:25):
Fucking hitting me? Yes, middle fingers all around this guy?
Oh no, Heaven forbid if you're poor or on welfare?
Oh my goodness.

Speaker 1 (01:00:38):
With pat being so determined to get into acting, I
was also fearful as to what that might do to
her continuing to be a Christian. I'm sure it wouldn't
have helped, Okay, all right? Sure? Number four. Also, with

(01:01:01):
Helen not going to church, I knew that this would
harm the children eventually in their attendants. I continue to
hope that she would begin to come to church soon,
But when I mentioned it to her that mister Jewbell
wanted to pay her an elder's call, she just blew
up and said that she wanted her name taken off

(01:01:23):
the church rolls. Again, this could only have an adverse
result for the children's continued attendants. Okay, sure, sure, okay, sir,
So that is the sum of it. If any of
these had been the condition, we might have pulled through.

(01:01:48):
But this, oh, this was just too much. At least
I'm certain that all have gone to heaven now. If
things had gone on, who knows if this would be
the case. Of course, mother got involved because doing what
I did to my family would have been a tremendous

(01:02:09):
shock to her at this age. Well, their said I. Therefore,
knowing that she is a Christian, I felt it best
that she be relieved of the troubles of this world
that would have hit her. After it was all over,

(01:02:31):
I said some prayers for them all from the hymn book.
That was the least I could do.

Speaker 2 (01:02:40):
What least?

Speaker 1 (01:02:42):
Are you kidding me?

Speaker 2 (01:02:46):
Now?

Speaker 1 (01:02:47):
For the final arrangements, Helen and the children have all
agreed because I asked them at dinner before I killed
them that they would prefer to be cremated. Please see
to it that the cost her CAPSULEO. What a chief
escape this guy her mother. She has a plot at

(01:03:10):
the frankenmuf Church Cemetery. Please contact mister Herman schecklists. He
is married to a niece of mothers and knows what
arrangements are to be made. This fuck face. That is
the end of that letter. But the audacity of this man.

Speaker 2 (01:03:32):
It's so bad. I'm gonna said a prayer, so everything's
cool now time.

Speaker 1 (01:03:37):
It's the least I could do.

Speaker 2 (01:03:39):
Yes. List later stated he had also prayed, this is
over them while they're dead. He's lying them all up.
Your family, father, upbraiding you. In the name of Jesus,
our Savior, please take the family into your family home.
They are also innocent in this matter, and he felt

(01:04:01):
that with the Lord prayer. Of course, John Liz continued
his letter with more lame justifications with regard to his
thoughts on his forgiveness, how others will no doubt think
what he did was horrific, but he didn't see any
other alternative.

Speaker 1 (01:04:20):
I mean the welfare come on that right there, forgetting
forget you know, Jesus loved the poor people. Yeah, you know,
different things, I guess, but okay, well now Another interesting

(01:04:43):
thing is psychiatrist Stephen Simmring talked with John List for
hours after List's arrest. Doctor Simmring is board certified and
adult psychiatry with subspecialty certification in forensic psychiatry. He is
tested in hundred or testified in hundreds of civil and

(01:05:04):
criminal trials as an expert witness.

Speaker 2 (01:05:08):
Now.

Speaker 1 (01:05:08):
Doctor Simmering said that in nineteen seventy one, John List
was so rigid in his thinking he only saw three
options for himself himself. One runaway that seems fine, okay.

Speaker 2 (01:05:26):
Two go bankrupt boom, No, you're not getting to heaven
if you're poor.

Speaker 1 (01:05:32):
Apparently. Three kill his family. That one that's the one
he went with. Apparently.

Speaker 2 (01:05:40):
So okay, I'm so glad that this doctor's name is
doctor Simmering and not doctor Lewis because I'm good to
done that one. I couldn't have done it.

Speaker 1 (01:05:51):
Oh boy, it would have been that would.

Speaker 2 (01:05:54):
Have been bad because this one sounds like he knows
what he's talking about. Uh. John rejected bankruptcy as he
considered it a sin. He rejected suicide because it was
the unpardonamal sin.

Speaker 1 (01:06:08):
Just just.

Speaker 3 (01:06:10):
What is it?

Speaker 1 (01:06:11):
It's like number two? Right, that shall not kill? Or
is it one? I don't it's at the top, all right,
that one is?

Speaker 2 (01:06:17):
Yeah, okay, that left his family. He knew this was
a sin, but he was convinced he can repent and
live a pious life and be forgiven. Now I'm no expert,
but I have been to Sunday School and I have
taught it, so I know a little bit, a little bit.
But I'm unsure why he thought he could be forgiven

(01:06:38):
the sin of murder but not the sin of bankruptcy.

Speaker 1 (01:06:42):
No.

Speaker 2 (01:06:43):
I mean, you know, come on now, John, After all,
to God, sin is sin. I mean, if bankruptcy is
a sin, it's no different than anything else can be
forgiven with the right you know, belief and following and everything.
I mostly wonder, though, why he didn't consider coming clean
to his family, selling that house, getting into something more reasonable,

(01:07:05):
or at least take a second job, because that's what
normal people do, right.

Speaker 1 (01:07:10):
I mean, I live in this big ass mansion that
they can't even afford. They don't have, you can't still
get you could downside to what a four bedroom house
that's being too poor for you or something.

Speaker 2 (01:07:23):
Like.

Speaker 1 (01:07:23):
I just I don't even know what that even means
to them. Oh God.

Speaker 3 (01:07:31):
So.

Speaker 1 (01:07:31):
Doctor Simmring also said lists actions weren't a result of psychosis.
They were not some sort of break in reality. I agree,
they were not. It's very obvious he described John List
as not a psychopath, but as having an obsessive compulsive
personality disorder, which is not the same as obsessive compulsive disorder.

Speaker 2 (01:07:55):
Those are two very different things. I just want to
establish there is a personality disorder and then there's another disorder,
and those are two very very different things, because one
likes to clean and the other one likes to kill
or I don't know, but anyway, rather than have zero
care for others, which is a psychopathic trait, List had

(01:08:18):
a lack of normal empathy. Was how doctor Simmring described it.
His personality would allow him to rationalize his actions until
he didn't feel strongly about them. As a result, his
ability to cartmentalize his life allowed him to move on
without guilt. Now I'm pretty good about compartmentalization, but I

(01:08:41):
couldn't do this. There's no way, There is no way.

Speaker 1 (01:08:47):
Wild.

Speaker 2 (01:08:48):
I know, it's just absolutely wild. He was able to
rationalize what could not be rationalized and justify what could
not be justified, and this was how he was able
to live his life by doing Texas by day and
reading historical books by night. Oh hello, Amy, have you

(01:09:09):
joined the show?

Speaker 1 (01:09:11):
It is It's fine. You can join us.

Speaker 2 (01:09:18):
You won.

Speaker 1 (01:09:19):
That's fine, We would.

Speaker 2 (01:09:22):
Like for you to join us. Oh okay, But John List,
it seemed that once he was in prison, Oh yeah,
that's right, he might be forgiven, forgotten get. In March
two thousand and two, television journalist Kan Chin interviewed John
List for ABC's evening magazine show Downtown. It was promoted

(01:09:47):
us the first time in thirty years that List had
spoken about the murder of his wife, three children, and mother.
While that was true, List had been a fugitive for
almost eighteen of those years. He was sixty three when
he was captured in nineteen eighty nine with the help

(01:10:07):
of America's Must Want a Tip, So that made him
around seventy six years old when he sat for this interview.
The way he shuffled into the room and slurred his
words as he responded to questions gave the impression that
he was much older. He lost most of his hair,
and it appeared to have trouble with his teeth. Also

(01:10:29):
sound no pity, no pity, hare, no pity for me, not.

Speaker 1 (01:10:34):
Me either, Nope.

Speaker 2 (01:10:37):
Well, much of the program was a recounting of the crime.
Liszt did speak about what he had done He described
shooting his wife as he came on her from behind
while she ate toast at the kitchen table. After he
dragged her body to the barroom and clean up the blood,
he sat down at that same table and head lunch.
We do have a brief audio clip of his interview

(01:10:59):
with Connie Chung.

Speaker 1 (01:11:00):
Were you determined to kill.

Speaker 4 (01:11:02):
Them once I made the plan? Yeah, then it's just
like you going and you're there's no stopping them after
after you start.

Speaker 2 (01:11:13):
In two thousand and two, ABC's Connie Chung spoke with
John Listen, his first on camera interview about the murders.
You ate lunch in the kitchen where you had shot
your wife in cold blood.

Speaker 4 (01:11:23):
That's correct.

Speaker 1 (01:11:24):
How could you?

Speaker 4 (01:11:25):
I was hungry, just the way it was, you would
be too.

Speaker 2 (01:11:36):
Sucking guy, Yeah, it's just normal. I'm hungry. He claimed
also that he kissed his mother before shooting her, kind
of like Judas did Jesus. I really hate this guy,
but I don't believe he kissed his mother at all.

Speaker 1 (01:11:57):
I don't think so either either. So Doctor Simmring, who
had evaluated List while he was in prison, mentioned that
something was missing in him with regard to relationships and
that he was probably more angry at his family than
he'd ever admitted, because he can't be angry at himself. Right, No, no, no,

(01:12:20):
it's never his fault. Some of the murders had involved overkill,
although Liszt explained that overkilled to be the release of tension. Quote.

Speaker 2 (01:12:31):
After I'd completed my assignments and assignment, asked Chung, and
he said, well my self assignment. Who who says that?
John List, it's terrible? Asked why he had just not

(01:12:51):
killed himself when he saw dat mounting up. He explained
that suicide bording from heaven. Okay, we've heard him say
that before. He said he had a better tser going
to heaven if he murdered his family and then sought forgiveness.
In fact, he fully expected not only to see all
of them again in heaven, but they would either have

(01:13:13):
forgiven him or would not know the tragedy had happened
at all. As he put it in his trial statement
to the judge, he suspected they would all get along
as before. I don't well, I would hope if it
was heaven they get along better than that.

Speaker 1 (01:13:30):
But you know it's a fair point. But also I know,
fuck this guy. Sorry you guys, says told you I
was kinda ran and drop a lot of f boss,
because this is one of the worst people, the worst.
So even as Liz described himself, he referred to himself
in the third person as he rather than I, which

(01:13:54):
indicated that he distanced himself somewhat from who he was
and what he did. Yeah, also left out a significant
fact that he had once had a family and that
he had murdered them. Chung pointed this out, and he
shrugged it off.

Speaker 2 (01:14:11):
Hmm, this guy's kind of a stupid face.

Speaker 1 (01:14:15):
Oh there is again.

Speaker 2 (01:14:16):
There it is again.

Speaker 1 (01:14:17):
Yes, that's fine.

Speaker 2 (01:14:19):
Liszt expressed no real remorse or pain over to the
fact that his children had never even had a chance
to grow up and have their own families. About his
mother's murder, he said that he'd fulfilled his father's requests
that he'd take care of her and not let her suffer.
Did you ever think of that, Jess Chung as if
there was another way to interpret the event. I was

(01:14:40):
that an old blooded murder for selfish reason? I mean,
did you ever think maybe I just said to do
take care of her, let her supper?

Speaker 1 (01:14:49):
Can you believe that? Did you ever think of that?
Whoa sir? Okay, Now it was clear that he had
been planning the murders for oh wild. The family dinner
regarding the disposition of their remains proves this. He expected
his own children to say how they wanted their bodies

(01:15:10):
handled in the event they died. It's crazy, is.

Speaker 2 (01:15:15):
It any wonder Patty believed her father wanted to kill them. Nope, no, no,
it's totally believable. Well, he expected to be caught fairly
quickly after he left the grizzly scene. When that didn't happen,
he felt no responsibility to turn himself in. It was

(01:15:36):
up to the police to catch me, he said, I mean,
in fairness, yes, well I agree. I mean I kind
of get that thinking it's like, well, you know, they
must don't want me that bad or Heaven forbid. He
thought that, you know, God said it was okay, I'm
gonna let you away. Because I could see him thinking,
oh my God, yes, you know, God must want me
to get away with this or I'd be caught. I

(01:15:57):
could see him thinking that.

Speaker 1 (01:15:58):
Think about that. Yeah, you're probably totally right. He definitely, yeah,
definitely probably did. At one point, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:16:07):
He claimed to have seen the tilly end of the
America's Most Wanted episode that spelled the beginning of the
end of his days of freedom, although the authorities doubt
this due to his schedule. That specific night, He admitted
he started to sweat, but he figured he'd wait and see.
He had already decided that he wouldn't run again. If
the police caught him, then it was over.

Speaker 1 (01:16:27):
It was clear that Chung thought her subject was cold
and somewhat inhuman, I mean look at him, yes, as
he spoke about what he had done to his family.
This seemed amused and asked her if she'd ever had
a more grisly In her view, he was oddly content

(01:16:48):
in prison doing accounting work for the prison, but of
course he was probably the longest he ever held his job,
the longest stretch security here.

Speaker 2 (01:17:05):
But also what why are prisoners doing? You're accounting what
is happening? And he was living a structured daily routine.
Given his rigid personality, he actually probably found it very comforting.

Speaker 1 (01:17:19):
He was probably just fine in there now. On March
twenty first, two thousand and eight, List died of complications
from pneumonia at the age of eighty two while still
in prison, m don't care. In reporting his death, the
New Jersey Star Ledger referred to him as the Boogeyman

(01:17:41):
of Westfield. Mm hmm.

Speaker 2 (01:17:45):
That picture, ladies. He second Salem, Sam says, finally a
coworking environment where he fits in. Yeah, he's just one
of the guys. He didn't have to impress anybody. Okay.
Oh and if you're interested. John listrote his memoir while

(01:18:05):
in prison. It is entitled Collateral Damage, and it is
entirely self serving. Of course, he blames his entire lifetime
of troubles on the forty one days of combat. Forty
one days of combat he said for in World War Two,
claiming a diagnosis of PTSD was to blame. Sorry, John,

(01:18:25):
I'm not buying your story or your.

Speaker 1 (01:18:28):
Book, you know, and she buys all the books. It's true.

Speaker 2 (01:18:36):
I looked for a free PDF version. I'm not gonna
lie I did. I couldn't find it. So if anyone
has a FREEPDF version, they can email me Tara at
TWT Media dot com and we will happily read it altogether. Yeah,
it thumbs down, but I will totally read it. Would
money even go for his book, just to the publisher

(01:18:59):
I don't. Oh, that's a good question, because since he's
the worst. No, I think they got divorced, so probably not.

Speaker 1 (01:19:08):
Even Libby doesn't. It's not even on with Libby. Oh wow, Okay,
Well I'm saying a lot. Well, let's get to our
closing thoughts.

Speaker 3 (01:19:19):
You guys.

Speaker 1 (01:19:20):
I wrote nothing out for my closing thoughts because I
don't know what to say. I don't really know what
to say. There is one grip. We cover a lot
of crimes. I've been into true crime for well since
America's most Wanted and unsolved mysteries, Babysitters Club, the box
Car Children. Mysteries and crime have always been my thing,

(01:19:43):
but one group in particular. I have never been able
to understand our family Annihilators. I can't. I can't wrap
my head around the selfishness of that. I generally try
to with other crimes to see where where are these
people coming from? You know, how did they get to hear?

(01:20:05):
And unfortunately, with family annihilators, there is no nothing, There
is no good reason why not? Just why take out
the children and your whole family for what is usually
an ego driven reason. All right, you weren't living in
a box car, your family wasn't going to be living

(01:20:25):
in cardboard boxes. Oh no, you would have a four
bedroom Brady Bunch style fucking house in the suburbs. And
that's that's unacceptable for you. John List, like, get out
of here. This is guy. I hate this guy. This
is probably one of the worst, the worst guys I've
ever The coldness of it is beyond disturbing. And uh,

(01:20:50):
that's really all I have to I am glad he's
not in this world. I don't think he is where
he thought he was gonna be. If that's your bag,
that was his. And I don't think whatever it is
you believe is what's gonna It doesn't mean it's all
the same.

Speaker 2 (01:21:02):
But I don't think he's gonna I don't think that's
gonna work out how he died in the first place.

Speaker 1 (01:21:08):
And if you think of his justifications, none of it
makes any sense now, none of it.

Speaker 2 (01:21:14):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:21:15):
Oh oh we we can't be poor, Oh no, we
can't be on welfare. Oh no, I can't put my
wife who's suffering from syphilis.

Speaker 2 (01:21:26):
Well, just one thing that got me about him with
her is that she was sick. She was basically bedridden.
I mean, obviously she could get around a little bit
because he didn't kill her in the kitchen, but I
mean she was homemound, if nothing else, and he still
thought she should be able to go to church every Sunday.
And I'm like, no, it just didn't always work out
that way.

Speaker 1 (01:21:47):
I mean by then, like, if you don't know what
cephalis does your brain, it's not great.

Speaker 2 (01:21:51):
No, she was not by this point, I don't think
she was Helene. You know, she probably wasn't between that
and the drinking and the tranquilizers.

Speaker 1 (01:22:04):
You yeah, and then the children. The children seem like
very happy kids considering what they are dealing with. But anyway,
considering yeah, anyway, that's my rant. I don't like the
Stanley and Elands, and this guy is really one of
the worst ones.

Speaker 2 (01:22:21):
He's one of the worst. Well, this story made me
really angry for several reasons. You've mentioned a couple of them,
but also it's really revolting when the cover crimes against
children in any form or fashion, but when it's their
parents are the doers of the event, it's abhorrent to me.

(01:22:44):
And I'm it also grieves me when some jackwagon wagon
it's that face. How about that bastardizes religion to justify
they're crazy. Now they have really burns me up. I
have a lot of respect for people with strong convictions.

(01:23:04):
I do so when a human piece of garbage like
John Liszt, who his thought his actions were some sort
of sick type of honor killings, that's the only thing
that can use to describe them, because that's what he
thought they were. In a way, he had to honor himself,
so they have whatever. It's just disgusted me because he
thought he had he was their savior as what he

(01:23:27):
was in my opinion, he thought I can save them.
I can make sure they go to heaven if I
kill them right now where they have time to go back.
I mean, I mean, I mean, you know, Patty, poor Patty,
the you know, wanting to be an actor or an actress.
You know, that's not He's just not gonna let that
happened because that's like the devil incarnat or something in

(01:23:49):
his mind. But you know, faith is something meant to
bring people peace, comfort them when they grieve, and give
them strength during difficult times. If you don't feel that way,
I respect people who do feel that way, and I'm
not going to tell them they're wrong or they need
to give it up or whatever, ridicule them or or
try to turn it around on them like people will do.

(01:24:12):
And then you have some loser like journalist come along
corrupted an attempt to justify what you can't justify. It
just makes me sick. This is terrible. I agree that
that posses me off so much as well when people
I'm not a very religious person, but like this.

Speaker 1 (01:24:30):
Okay, buddy, sure he just it was like.

Speaker 2 (01:24:36):
I mean, I feel like he thought because obviously he's
got an ego problem with his personality disorder that he
has to save everybody. It's up to him to make
sure they stay on this path. Forgetting that well, I mean,
if you read the Bible, God's all about free will,
don read it more.

Speaker 1 (01:24:57):
Well, leading great, Thank you so much.

Speaker 2 (01:25:00):
I'll get off that, I know. Right.

Speaker 1 (01:25:02):
We've literally sat and talked about John List before forever,
like we will go on just ranting about him because
you think his garbage. If you guys don't know that
by now, Oh we do not like him, but you guys,
before we go, we're gonna wrap up. If you like
what you heard tonight, please be sure to follow all
of our socials and subscribe to our YouTube channel. It's free,

(01:25:23):
that's right, you don't want to do anything. Or if
you're listening to our pod, please download and give us
a rating or review, depending on which platform you're using.
All of that helps our helps out tremendously in getting
our channel out there. Now, you guys, next week on
True Crime in one time, we will be covering the
Athens murders of nineteen eighty seven, when senseless crimes changed

(01:25:49):
the landscape of a southern college town and the subsequent
trial ended up changing the Georgia death penalty law. And
you guys, I have a guess com and it's gonna
be the Lovely Cabin. She'll be joining me next week,
next Thursday, eight pm Eastern when we cover this. And

(01:26:09):
I don't really know anything about this, so I am
very interested in at least I don't think I do.
Maybe it's one of those that once I'm like, oh yeah,
I remember, but it's not ringing a bell actually, so
I'm excited about it.

Speaker 2 (01:26:23):
Now.

Speaker 1 (01:26:23):
If you need more of Terry true Crime, who's not here,
but she's here in Spirits and I, you can always
find us doing something on our True Crime and wide
time YouTube channel Terry is out for the next few weeks,
so there will be no Midday Missing until September. But
you guys, couch Court with Lama is Bad. Yes, right now,

(01:26:44):
we are currently covering the trial of Stephen Lawson, one
of the people who have been tried in the disappearance
and murder of Crystal Rogers. If you are unfamiliar with
the Crystal Rogers case, I did a huge deep dive
covering everything about her case, as well as other unsolved
cases in Bardstown, Kentucky, and we just wrapped up yesterday

(01:27:06):
the trial of Brooks House and Joseph Lawson, who are
also responsible. I guess I don't know. I have a
lot of opinions on them. They're probably unpopular ones, but
it's still worth a watch. I thought it was. It
wasn't you know, no Karen Reid trial, but it certainly

(01:27:28):
is interesting. So I encourage you. You can find all
of that in our Crystal Rogers playlist to catch up now.
If you haven't yet, please like this video, subscribe and
hit the notification bell so you don't miss when we
go live or drop an episode. And I forgot to
mention it this week but if you like the show
Big Brother that has nothing to do with true crime. Well, actually,

(01:27:51):
this year the theme is murder mystery, though they haven't
tapped into it at all, and I'm very annoyed about
that too.

Speaker 2 (01:27:57):
Actually, I am so annoyed.

Speaker 1 (01:28:00):
Who loves throwing murder mysteries?

Speaker 2 (01:28:02):
It could be even a game of Clue all season,
and so I'm disappointed in them.

Speaker 1 (01:28:07):
I'm so disappointing their production. Hire me, Big Brother, Come on,
I'm a good producer.

Speaker 2 (01:28:14):
Anyway, join our discord, the Courtyard, because here in about
fifteen minutes, I'm going to stream the live episode tonight
where they're getting evicted.

Speaker 1 (01:28:22):
Anyway, we love true crime, we love reality TV. We
do both over on our discord.

Speaker 2 (01:28:27):
That's where we all hang out when we're not live,
So you can find the link in chat or I
think in our about section or something like that. Now,
I want to thank Lady and Gray for being a
lovely co host tonight.

Speaker 1 (01:28:39):
And last week she took a big gamble coming out
making her appearance as a co host. Round of a
clause for her, Everyone let her know she did an
amazing job in the comments section, and is there anything
you would like to say Before we we sign off.

Speaker 2 (01:29:00):
I want to thank you for having me as co
host again. I've had so much fun doing this, and
I want to encourage other members of the team to
give this a try. And I am looking forward to
happen next week because I love when she does this
because she really I understand this is kind of like
her story, and if it's her story, she's really gonna

(01:29:22):
bring and it's gonna be amazing. I just know it.
So I just want to thank everyone for being here.
Come on this corn and watch Big Brother with us.
It's eviction night and not well.

Speaker 1 (01:29:35):
Thank you everyone for listening and supporting us. Until next time,
take care of your mind, take care of each other,
and never stop asking the hard questions. Now go forth
and be well amazing.

Speaker 2 (01:29:49):
Bye guys,

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S5E P21 - The Man Who Vanished After Killing His Family_ The John List Nightmare Episode 2

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}S5E P21 - The Man Who Vanished After Killing His Family_ The John List Nightmare Episode 2