October 13, 2024 • 32 mins
A riveting dialogue unfolds as LA Starks joins David McClam on the podcast, where she delves into the intricate worlds of energy politics and thrilling fiction. The episode begins with a heartfelt message from the host, addressing mental health awareness, which sets a compassionate tone for the conversation. Starks, known for her gripping thrillers, shares her journey from engineering to writing, highlighting her academic achievements and the unique perspective they lend to her storytelling. The discussion pivots to her latest work, 'Winner's Curse', which follows the formidable Lynn Dayton as she navigates a treacherous landscape of corporate sabotage and high-stakes energy dealings.
Starks elaborates on the character of Lynn Dayton, portraying her as a strong, multifaceted woman fighting against the odds in a male-dominated industry. This character is not just a representation of strength but also embodies the complexities of navigating power dynamics within corporate environments. The conversation further explores the thematic connections between Starks's fictional narratives and current global energy issues, showcasing how her real-world expertise informs her writing. The episode emphasizes the importance of representation in literature, especially strong female characters who challenge societal norms and expectations.
As the dialogue progresses, listeners are introduced to the broader implications of energy politics, with Starks drawing on her professional experiences to illustrate the challenges and triumphs faced by women in the field. The episode culminates in a compelling invitation for listeners to engage with 'Winner's Curse', framing it as not only an entertaining read but also a reflection of the pressing issues facing the energy sector today. McClam’s closing remarks reinforce the significance of storytelling in understanding complex societal issues, encouraging an appreciation for the narratives that shape our world.
Takeaways:
- The podcast emphasizes the importance of mental health awareness and encourages listeners to reach out for help.
- Lynn Dayton, the protagonist in LA Starks's book, embodies a strong female character in a male-dominated industry.
- The energy sector is depicted as high-stakes, providing a compelling backdrop for thrillers.
- LA Starks combines her engineering background with her passion for writing to create engaging thrillers.
- The conversation highlights how current political issues around energy are reflected in Starks's writing.
- Listeners are reminded of the significance of supporting authors by purchasing and reading their works.
Get your Copy of Winners Cures HERE
Chapters:
- 00:00 - Introduction to the Podcast
- 00:02 - Awareness and Support for Mental Health
- 00:20 - Welcome to True Crime Authors and Extraordinary People
- 00:39 - Meet the Host, David McClam
- 01:49 - Introducing LA Starks, Author and Engineer
- 06:55 - The Journey of Lynn Dayton: A Strong Protagonist
- 04:19 - Insights on the Energy Industry from LA Starks
- 04:46 - Exploring the Plot of Winner's Curse
- 05:47 - The Politics of Energy in Today's World
- 16:42 - LA Starks' Personal Experience in the Energy Field
- 26:23 - The Impact of the Pandemic on Energy and Environment
- 31:37 - Conclusion and Final...
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
You are seen.
You are worthy.
You are not alone.
The world loses one person tosuicide every 40 seconds.
Let's change the stats together.
We can say, not suicide, not today.
Welcome to true crime authorsand extraordinary people.
(00:25):
The podcast where we bring twopassions together, the show that
gives new meaning to the old adage
truth is stranger than fiction, and
reminding you that there is an extraordinary
person in all of us.
Here is your host, David McClam.
What's going on, everybody?
And welcome to another episodeof true crime.
All this extraordinary people.
(00:45):
Of course, I'm your man, David McClam.
Hey, if you guys haven'talready, make sure you follow us
on all of our social media.
One link to a link tree willget you every place you need to go
pertaining to the show.
As you heard coming in, if youare someone that is considering hurting
yourself or someone else, please
leavethis episode and go and dial 988.
(01:08):
That is the hotline if youneed help.
If no one's told you thistoday, let me be the first to tell
you, you are important, and I do
need you to be here.
All right.
If you're following thecalendar, you know, again, it is
time for yet another author.
And I have a good one here foryou today.
(01:28):
Let me tell you who our guest is.
She earned a b's inengineering at Tulane University
and anMBA at the University of Chicago
BoothSchool of Business.
Besides writing high stakethrillers, she is a paid contributor
toseeking alpha for her energy investment
articles and has run 21 and a half
marathons.
(01:49):
She is the author of winners Curse.
Please welcome LA Starks.
Hey, LA, how you doing today?
Great.
I'm delighted to be here.
Thanks so much.
David, I don't know if you area wrestling fan.
I told my daughter's gonna saythis, but she jumped out of her seat
because I said, I have an interview
with LA.
And she let me finish.
She goes, why would La Knight?
(02:09):
I'm like, no, LA Starks.
There's a guy named LA Knightsin wrestling.
I'll have to look him up.
But first, let me say happypub day to you.
At the time of this shooting,your book winner's curse was released
August 20.
So congratulations on gettingyour book out to the world.
(02:31):
It's very exciting.
We've worked on it a longtime, and it's a big day.
So before we jump into that,here's a question I ask everyone
thatcomes on the show.
Is there anything else aboutLA Starks that we should know that
we don't?
Wow.
Let's see.
It takes me a long time towrite the books.
How about that?
(02:54):
They don't.
It's not an overnight process,so nobody should get too excited
aboutthe next one soon.
Well, none of the great booksever comes quickly, and you are definitely
one in that as well.
I do want to tap into thiswhen we get into the book, because
there's a lot with this.
(03:14):
You know, you have a b's in engineering.
You do deal a lot with energy.
So can you tell us a lot aboutwhat your job is dealing with energy?
Well, yes, exactly.
In fact, I started as I was,I'm a reader, still a reader.
Love to write.
Authors are, you know, thepeople I really like.
(03:36):
But I grew up in a refinerytown, and there were lots of scientists
and engineers around me.
And plan b, when I figured outI needed to support myself, was engineering,
and I got into it.
And I particularly like theenergy side.
And the energy side reallylends itself to thrillers because
it'snot just in one place.
(04:00):
It's not just in the United States.
It's not just in Texas or Louisiana.
You're dealing with countriesall over the world, and they're either
trying to get energy, trying to buy
it or sell it, or both.
And the stakes are just reallyhigh, which is perfect for thrillers.
So that's, I've, you know,I've been able, I've been fortunate
towork in the energy business, and
tome, it was just a natural for this
other, you know, business that I
love, thing I love, which is writing.
(04:32):
Now I'm going to read theaudience the synopsis that's there,
because when I read the synopsis
of thisbook, and now that I'm reading the
book is very close to home right
nowwith what's going on in politics,
especially around oil.
So let me kind of read that first.
So the first ever woman tolead the drilling division of Trico's
energy protagonist, Lynn Dayton,
isdetermined to prove herself capable,
butfinds herself facing more than just
the usual water cooler backstabbing.
(04:59):
Undercutting her at every turnis former Trico's executive, Henry
van der Voos, who blames her for
his humiliating fall from power ruthlessness.
Competing with Lin for controlof Mitlin Oral, his own Playboy Sons
company has revolutionary energy
technology that people will kill
for.
Lynn must battle van der Voosand international power players who
conspire to eliminate her and her
colleagues for conspiracies to sabotage
natural gas plants and complete a
merger that will ensure that the
technology remains in the hands of
those that will use it to benefit
the world.
(05:33):
When I read this, my mind goesto Kamala Harris, Donald Trump, other
than just putting in there the presidency,
if you change a few things here,
itcould be swung that direction.
If anybody's paying closeattention to politics right now,
Donald Trump is making a big play
for oil and to drill on that, and
that's what he wants to do.
(05:56):
Do you realize how close yourbook is to current politics?
And if so, what made you wantto write that one?
These thrillers are kind ofthe work that I do.
I'm always kind of payingattention to what's going on.
So I'll look at who'sexploring where in what part of the
world, and because energy is so high
stakes and because it's the basis
ofthe economy, anybody, any country's
economy, of course, it's fundamental
topresidential politics.
(06:28):
So, yeah, it kind of all goes together.
And there is a scene, there'sa scene in Washington.
The plays on a national level,it tends to play sort of a regulatory
constraining role.
On an international level,it's much more kind of who's doing
what deals with whom, who's selling
to whom.
(06:53):
So let's talk a little bitabout Lynn.
So Lynn is the protagonist.
She is the main character ofthis book, a strong woman, for one.
Congratulations.
We don't have, in my opinion,enough stories that is done around
strong women.
In a lot of books that I'veread where a woman has a part, she's
usually very watered down or she
has a little power, but not as much
as the man.
(07:18):
Lynn Dayton has all the powerand she's fighting the big boys in
this book.
How did you come up with Lynnas a character?
It's drawn, of course, from myown experience and from experiences
ofpeople that I know, but also a lot
from reading and kind of a lot from
just what anybody would think.
(07:42):
You know, here's the situation.
What would I do in this situation?
It is true.
It is true.
It's kind of a weird thingwith, with oil and gas that there,
it's not a lot of people, but they
control a lot of resources.
What's the best way to put that?
(08:02):
Like reserves that are worth a lot.
And so in my other job, I talkabout oil and gas companies, and
there'll be a few thousand people,
butthe reserves they control will be
in the billions of dollars.
And so that is a natural partof the oil and gas business is not
specific to Lyn as a protagonist.
(08:27):
Well, whenever I read her, I,my mind goes to the show Yellowstone.
If you ever read that or watchthat show.
Beth is the woman that youreally don't want to deal with.
Well, here I think the rolethat she has that's maybe different
thanlike the prototypical sort of oil
and gas or, you know, Guy role is,
is that she is really focused on,
as all engineers are, safety, the
safety of her people.
(09:02):
You know, she's responsiblefor a lot of people and she feels
that responsibility very, very deeply.
And so when her people arethreatened, that's kind of, that's
herlike, call to action, if you will.
So I don't want to give toomuch of the book away because the
book is great.
You guys need to go and readthis book.
(09:24):
Now this is only one book inthe series.
There's three other books thatdeals with Lynn Dayton.
Does a reader have to readthose other three books before they
read these?
This one or is these asstandalone books?
These are these.
They work as standalones.
It's the same protagonist, butthe story, you know, and there'll
be areference here and there, but they
definitely work as a standalone.
(09:49):
So you can come in at any bookin this series and it's self contained.
So how did you come up withthe plot of the book and especially
Henryvan der Voost?
Henry van der Boost, well, heis a character from the first book,
but what I really drew from was situations
I've seen.
(10:13):
And this is a, for yourreaders who read the Bible, there's
Abraham and Isaac.
And this is kind of an Abrahamand Isaac story that's a father son.
And it's kind of how much willthe father, will the father sacrifice
his son?
I mean, I don't think I'mgiving too much away by saying that
that's sort of the meta part of it
with the plot.
(10:39):
I wanted to really start withthe hub of the energy business, which
is Midland.
But as you see when you readit, kind of goes everywhere.
So to Spain, to hungary, tothe UK and those threads that involve
all of those.
(10:59):
But I really, I have wantedfor a while to write about Midland
because it's not like any place else.
It's not, you know, sort of,it's not giant.
It's not east Texas.
It's real.
It's really fast.
It's really aggressive.
And the people there arereally just, you know, kind of wary
because there's, because there's,
it'sso boom and bust and so, you know,
you can be paying, you know, $500
for a hotel, you know, one night
and,you know, 100 the next or 75 the
next.
(11:30):
And it's, you're kind of like,okay, well, it's fine, you know,
whatever.
So that's, and it's, it's,it's sort of like the desert, but
not exactly.
So I wanted to, to capture all that.
Well, you do a good job indoing that.
I'm being very careful becauseyour book takes off.
(11:51):
Right.
So if you read the book,you're not Lily gagging around before
things starts to happen in the book.
So it's kind of one of those,when I interview other authors, if
I say, hey, I can tell you like five
minutes, but your book takes off.
I appreciate that because tome, in the thriller, I love authors
whojust gets to whatever I'm getting
tobecause I have a short period of
time that I can read throughout the
day.
(12:13):
And if I'm reading the first40 pages and it's leading me to the
story, I've lost interest.
And that is definitely not thecase in your book.
I'm like, wow, this was goingto really just introduce and we just
going to go.
So doing what you do, youknow, how did you go from being a
chemical engineer and how did you
wind up writing thrillers?
Well, I am, as I said, kind ofchemical engineering wound up being
sort of my plan b.
(12:36):
And I do, you know, I love it.
I mean, it's this, it explainsa lot.
And so, you know, got mybachelor's, decided I worked in a
refinery, decided I didn't want to
work in a refinery sort of the rest
of my life.
So went to business school,and then, you know, the energy business
kind of goes up and down, booms and
busts.
(13:03):
And I caught a like toward theend of, of a boom, and it was kind
of headed down, but worked in it
for a long, long time.
Took some time off with my kids.
I was lucky enough to be ableto spend time with my kids.
And then it sort of came back up.
And by this point, I wasstarting to.
(13:26):
The Internet was far moreavailable, and it was kind of like,
okay, I know something about this
business.
I really care about it.
I'm looking at the supply anddemand situation.
Is there something I can write about?
Is there a way I can writeabout investing in the business?
That's what I've been doingfor the last several years on what
you would call the nonfiction side.
(13:53):
Simultaneously, I was able tofinally start, you know, version
one ofbook one several years ago and 50
revisions later.
It was a book, but it's a any,as all I'm sure of your writers tell
you, it's a process.
(14:14):
And I seemed to find as manyblind alleys as anybody when I was
first starting.
So I'll ask you this question,because I ask all authors this, and
I usually get the same answer.
Some, I get one that's different.
So these characters that youcreate and you're, and, you know,
toput on paper, do they become a living,
breathing person to you?
Do you live with them in yourhead all times?
(14:38):
Sometimes they go to sleepwhen I've, when I, when I've paused
orwhen I'm not, you know, I'm, when
I'm not in the middle of writing
abook, I don't think about them as
much when I'm writing the book and
particularly when I'm revising him.
(14:59):
They are real to me.
And I do think particularly,why are they doing what they're doing?
What are they after?
What's their motivation?
And what drives all books,certainly, at least all thrillers,
is conflict.
How many kinds of conflictscan I put in there?
So then I am trying toperpetually put them in hot water.
(15:23):
Now, I know that this is bookfour in the Lynn Darton Dayton series.
Is it ending or do you haveplans of writing more books based
onLynn Dayton?
It's, you know, and that'sactually many people.
And this, one of the keys forwriters, at least for me, is to name
the characters.
(15:46):
And so Lynn Dayton wasn't herfirst name.
It was something else.
Very often you'll see thenames of cities, and that's here,
that's delivered.
Dayton, like Dayton, Ohio.
So that's, you know, sort ofreals, Ohio central, you know, kind
of basic american.
I would, I don't have acontract for the next book, but I
do have places.
(16:09):
I, you know, at least often Istart with locations, and I do have
two locations that I would love to
put into the next book.
So, so that's where I am withit now.
I know that probably thisquestion I ask you probably sparked
some of lint dating in the, in the
book.
But as a female, that is anenergy investor, how hard is it?
(16:31):
A lot of things we read in thebook is, you know, is that true?
I'm sure by other dudes.
Are you trying to be shut downby men because you are a woman?
How do you feel it is for youas an energy investor?
On the energy investing side?
I get a lot of what I wouldcall just sort of normal responses,
andthat's a measure, really, of how
far things have gone and how much
things have changed in that role.
(17:02):
I'm not exerting a particularkind of power.
And very often, you'll seethis kind of, oh, not psyop stuff,
butcertainly, you know, the backstabbing,
thestruggles, whatever, over something
that's really just lies, as with
thepresidential election we're talking
about, that has a lot of.
(17:25):
That's important.
That's really.
And here on the energyinvesting, it's, I think, a lot about
my investors.
I want to get things right.
I want to get things right formyself, but it's not life or death.
And so with the book, I'mreally trying to, you know, up the
ante, which means a lot less meetings
inthe book.
(17:50):
So I have to ask.
I know you probably knew I wasgoing to ask this, but I got to know.
So can you tell us exactlywhat a cooling tower is and how you
got trapped in one?
Okay.
Yes.
Well, this was when I was ababy engineer, and it was either
anaccident or it was hazing.
(18:13):
I really, to this day, I don'tknow which it was.
I was working in a refinery,and I was a tech service engineer.
All the baby engineers startout as tech service engineers.
And so you're doing projectsaround the refinery, and this project
was to measure the temperature differential
in.
In a water tower.
(18:33):
It's not the.
Not the cooling tower that youthink of with, like, a nuclear plant,
but it's more like a big, square
wooden box.
The water runs through it, andby, you know, being exposed to the
air, it cools off.
It has it.
And so I was.
I measured the water on thetop, you know, and that's great.
You measured the temperature.
(18:54):
But then I had to go inside,and inside, it's like, it's dripping,
it's wet, it's dark, you know, it's
like being in a cave, really.
And the door only latched fromthe outside.
So I'm inside, I'm taking thetemperature measurements, and I can't
open the door.
(19:15):
And I can't open the door, andI can't open it.
And it seemed like, you know,an hour.
Well, finally, somehow, someway, I got the door open.
But for everybody who's everexperienced any kind of claustrophobia,
it just.
It really.
And it came back really hard,you know, when I wrote this scene
because, oh, my God, that was awful.
(19:40):
That's.
That's.
That is.
That is that story.
People have been.
If you've been in caves andkind of like, are been lost, it's
like, oh, my God.
And that's.
That's what I was trying to portray.
I mean, and that, and that is,I mean that's what happened.
But that's also, I was tryingto describe that and that there's
areference to that experience in the
first book.
(20:02):
So tell me, why do you thinkpolitics and, you know, things like
energy and things like that, why
doyou think that those make great thrillers?
Because they, things happenfast, which is part of thrillers.
There's a strong, prettystrong element of suspense.
You don't know how things aregoing to turn out.
(20:22):
It affects millions, billionsof people.
So the stakes personally froma people standpoint are high and
from a financial standpoint are high.
I think about this a lot withnew economy, developing economies
andthere's some discussion.
(20:43):
Well they should start offwith renewables.
Well, most developingeconomies start off with the coal.
And the reason for that, whichis, you know, I, and which I totally
understand the reason for that is
it's affordable.
It's, you know, it's, it'salways there.
You know, it's, you can, youcan get your electricity twenty four
seven and you just, you know, people
know how to do it and that's, that's
okay.
(21:12):
I mean you start with, youknow, some basic energy and you build
your, your economy and then, and
then as we get richer and we're fortunate
to be in that position, you know,
wethink of ways to reduce emissions,
to becleaner, to be, you know, more environmental.
And that's all important, too.
Yes, it did greatly.
(21:33):
I just always wonder thatbecause, you know, a lot of the thrillers
that we read deals with kidnapping,
death, murder.
I have run into a couple thatdoes deal with politics.
And I always wondered, okay,why does politics really, you know,
make a good, I mean, with the scene
we have playing out now, I mean if
anybody wrote a book the way this
isgoing, it would be a great read.
But I always wonder that, Imean, to tack onto that question,
do youever get any backlash from people
thatis political or from people that
isin the energy field?
(22:06):
I don't think so.
I mean I, not really.
There are definitely peoplewho have, you know, this have a certain
view.
There's a stereotype, youknow, oil and gas is bad and then
they don't, you know, so they can't,
they don't, there's no nuance.
That's kind of like not interested.
(22:27):
I mean, in fact, the second,the third book, I have scenes, it's
set in New Orleans and in northern
California and I recall a northern
California bookstore, you know, beautiful
place, all that kind of stuff.
And they just said you know,you know, could you make your next
book about renewables?
(22:48):
So that's, I do, you know,people do definitely have opinions.
And what I, what I reallywanted to do here and throughout
is thereare these very interesting risk takers
in the energy business, in the oil
and gas business, and they're perfect
for thrillers.
And I wasn't seeing that and Iwanted to portray that not unlike
theway that we've been introduced to
ranch life in Yellowstone and kind
of how.
(23:22):
That works, being that you arean energy, I have this question for
you.
This is another thing that'skind of on the ballot this year,
iswhen it comes to, you know, gasoline
cars versus electric cars.
I know in my state, which isCalifornia, Gavin Newsom, who's the
governor here, is pushing a collective
tomove us more towards the electric
side.
(23:42):
Biden is trying to put thingsin play that I guess by 20, by 2030
they would all be gone.
Do you feel like that therestill is a spot for gasoline driven
vehicles when electric vehicles now
is cleaner, seem to cost less energy
than gas at the pump.
What's your thoughts on that?
(24:04):
I absolutely do, of course.
But for me, I've got somefriends who've got, for example,
Teslas,and they're sweet cars.
The acceleration is beautiful.
They're quiet, all the thingsthat we love about electric cars,
sothey are amazing.
(24:26):
Now, I will say in terms ofthem being clean, electric cars being
clean, you look to what your energy
source is.
Electricity is a secondarysource, and it's fueled by primary
sources.
And the primary sources thatwe think of as clean are solar and
wind, hydro.
(24:48):
Nuclear is coming back in, butthere's also a lot of electricity
that'sfueled by some still by coal less
and natural gas, which is kind of
low carbon.
So I think in California, theelectricity is natural gas and renewables,
and that's all pretty low carbon.
(25:12):
In China, your electric car isbasically, you're running your car
on coalition.
So it's not quite as clean asone would think.
I worked for a company thatbecame part of BP that was based
inCalifornia, and I went to, I was
out in Los Angeles several times,
andI just really, really, really sympathize
and understand it's a beautiful state.
(25:39):
And if you're in Los Angelesand you're there when there's the
bowl effect, you're getting the smog
and the clean air.
We're all about clean air.
We're all about clean water.
And I totally get that.
I've always said when it cameto clean air and water, things like
that.
(25:59):
As horrible as the pandemicwas, it showed us a lot of different
things.
The United States was never asclean as it was in 2020.
We had animals that has nevercommunicated with their young underwater
doing so again, I think there's a
lot of things to be learned from
that.
Do you think, in the energyfield and beyond that, they took
alot of cues of what happened and
tried to make things better.
(26:23):
At this point, after thepandemic, I.
Think that if you'll talk to,for example, when I listen to, and
I listen to a lot of different folks
in the energy business, but in Pennsylvania
and Midland, wherever.
But what strikes me asPennsylvania, because Pennsylvania
is first,where the.
(26:43):
Where the shale oil was developed.
Shale oil, more shale, naturalgas was developed.
And the guys who run thosecompanies say, we hunt, we fish,
wewant everything to be just as clean
as everybody else does.
So the industry has a prettyvested interest in keeping things
cleaned up and keeping it rolling.
(27:09):
It's absolutely true that whatthe pandemic showed us is just like
what we're doing right now.
We could have theseconversations at a distance without
being in the same room, and that
was just.
It was enlightening.
And honestly, it's a wonderful thing.
I go to write to my parents.
(27:31):
My parents don't live here inthe same town that I do.
They're 300 miles away.
But one of the first people Iknew who used Zoom was my mother.
And all of a sudden, we'recommunicating much better and on
amuch more regular basis.
So I almost think what it wasparticularly good for, what the pandemic
was particularly good for was improving,
enhancing our ways of communication
and.
(27:59):
Yes, exactly.
You didn't have to, you know,get on a plane every time you wanted
to talk to somebody.
So, in regards to winnerscurse, can you tell us, what do you
want readers to take away from the
book?
I really.
My first thing with every bookis I want people to be entertained,
and Iwant them to, you know, have a good
story and, you know, want to turn
the pages and.
(28:28):
And get to the end of it.
I, you know, I'm verycognizant and sensitive to the difference
between fiction and nonfiction, and
so there's some, you know, there's
definitely real life stuff in there,
and I want people to kind of, you
know, here's what goes on with Midland
and here, you know, all this kind
of stuff.
But.
(28:48):
But really, it's just, youknow, I want them to have fun with
the book, and that's a.
That's primary.
Why should someone go out andbuy a copy of winner's curse?
Well, it's, it's entertaining.
It's my quick summary.
It's a suspenseful thrillerfilled with energy intrigue, as my
folks say, ripped from today's headlines.
(29:15):
And it's a story aboutconspiracies to get control of a
valuable oil field technology and
to sabotage natural gas plants.
And as the first woman to leadher drilling division and her company,
the protagonist, Lynn Dayton, her
challenges escalate to thwarting
these conspiracies.
(29:37):
So it's a, I put a lot into,into making it a good story.
So in closing, is thereanything you'd like to say to your
fans or anyone that's listening today?
Buy the book.
But no.
Yes.
I mean, of course.
But I really, I appreciate allmy fans and all my readers and I
think of you as I write the book
andparticularly as I revise it to make
it interesting to you.
(30:14):
And so it's my, you are myaudience and I want to, I want for
you to find the book interesting
andsuspenseful and to be flipping the
pages past midnight.
Well, hey, thanks for comingon the show.
I could tell you the book is fabulous.
I'm going to go check out yourother books now because you write
really well.
(30:37):
It really was intriguing as apage turner and you're dealing with
today's headlines.
And I do think as an author,that's bold, because now in today's
climate, if we just say anything
aboutpolitics, whether it's for or against,
you get your throat jumped down.
So I do think that you werevery courageous writing about this.
Anytime you want to come backon the show, you know how to get
ahold of me.
(30:58):
Please let me know.
David, thank you so much.
This has been so much fun.
All right, guys, that was thefabulous La Starks.
You can get her book winter'scurse at Amazon and other places
booksare sold.
If you are a Kindle unlimitedsubscriber, you can read it for free.
However, I remind you, asalways, just because you download
itdoes not support LA.
(31:23):
You need to read the book andturn to pages for her to get paid.
Also, while you're there, goahead and check out her other books,
which I'm sure is just as great as
this one.
Alright, once again, thank youfor joining me today.
I know you have many choicesin true crime and interview podcasts.
I am grateful that for thelast two and a half years you have
chose me.
(31:44):
You have been listening to theonly three faceted podcasts of its
kind.
Be good to yourself and each other.
And always remember, alwaysstay humble.
An act of kindness can makesomeones day.
A little love and compassioncan go a long way.
And remember that there is anextraordinary person in all of us.
(32:05):
Ill catch you.
Catch you guys on the next one.
Don't forget to rate, commentand subscribe.
Join us on social media.
One link to the link tree hasit all.
Feel free to drop us a line@trucrimentauthorsmail.com.
dot Sound mixing and editingby David McClam intro script by Sophie
Wild and David McClam theme music
Legendary by new Alchemist introduction
andending credits by Jackie Voice.
(32:38):
See you next time on true crime.
Authors and extraordinary people.
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Welcome to true crime authorsand extraordinary people.
(00:25):
The podcast where we bring twopassions together, the show that
gives new meaning to the old adage
truth is stranger than fiction, and
reminding you that there is an extraordinary
person in all of us.
Here is your host, David McClam.
What's going on, everybody?
And welcome to another episodeof true crime.
All this extraordinary people.
(00:45):
Of course, I'm your man, David McClam.
Hey, if you guys haven'talready, make sure you follow us
on all of our social media.
One link to a link tree willget you every place you need to go
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As you heard coming in, if youare someone that is considering hurting
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leavethis episode and go and dial 988.
(01:08):
That is the hotline if youneed help.
If no one's told you thistoday, let me be the first to tell
you, you are important, and I do
need you to be here.
All right.
If you're following thecalendar, you know, again, it is
time for yet another author.
And I have a good one here foryou today.
(01:28):
Let me tell you who our guest is.
She earned a b's inengineering at Tulane University
and anMBA at the University of Chicago
BoothSchool of Business.
Besides writing high stakethrillers, she is a paid contributor
toseeking alpha for her energy investment
articles and has run 21 and a half
marathons.
(01:49):
She is the author of winners Curse.
Please welcome LA Starks.
Hey, LA, how you doing today?
Great.
I'm delighted to be here.
Thanks so much.
David, I don't know if you area wrestling fan.
I told my daughter's gonna saythis, but she jumped out of her seat
because I said, I have an interview
with LA.
And she let me finish.
She goes, why would La Knight?
(02:09):
I'm like, no, LA Starks.
There's a guy named LA Knightsin wrestling.
I'll have to look him up.
But first, let me say happypub day to you.
At the time of this shooting,your book winner's curse was released
August 20.
So congratulations on gettingyour book out to the world.
(02:31):
It's very exciting.
We've worked on it a longtime, and it's a big day.
So before we jump into that,here's a question I ask everyone
thatcomes on the show.
Is there anything else aboutLA Starks that we should know that
we don't?
Wow.
Let's see.
It takes me a long time towrite the books.
How about that?
(02:54):
They don't.
It's not an overnight process,so nobody should get too excited
aboutthe next one soon.
Well, none of the great booksever comes quickly, and you are definitely
one in that as well.
I do want to tap into thiswhen we get into the book, because
there's a lot with this.
(03:14):
You know, you have a b's in engineering.
You do deal a lot with energy.
So can you tell us a lot aboutwhat your job is dealing with energy?
Well, yes, exactly.
In fact, I started as I was,I'm a reader, still a reader.
Love to write.
Authors are, you know, thepeople I really like.
(03:36):
But I grew up in a refinerytown, and there were lots of scientists
and engineers around me.
And plan b, when I figured outI needed to support myself, was engineering,
and I got into it.
And I particularly like theenergy side.
And the energy side reallylends itself to thrillers because
it'snot just in one place.
(04:00):
It's not just in the United States.
It's not just in Texas or Louisiana.
You're dealing with countriesall over the world, and they're either
trying to get energy, trying to buy
it or sell it, or both.
And the stakes are just reallyhigh, which is perfect for thrillers.
So that's, I've, you know,I've been able, I've been fortunate
towork in the energy business, and
tome, it was just a natural for this
other, you know, business that I
love, thing I love, which is writing.
(04:32):
Now I'm going to read theaudience the synopsis that's there,
because when I read the synopsis
of thisbook, and now that I'm reading the
book is very close to home right
nowwith what's going on in politics,
especially around oil.
So let me kind of read that first.
So the first ever woman tolead the drilling division of Trico's
energy protagonist, Lynn Dayton,
isdetermined to prove herself capable,
butfinds herself facing more than just
the usual water cooler backstabbing.
(04:59):
Undercutting her at every turnis former Trico's executive, Henry
van der Voos, who blames her for
his humiliating fall from power ruthlessness.
Competing with Lin for controlof Mitlin Oral, his own Playboy Sons
company has revolutionary energy
technology that people will kill
for.
Lynn must battle van der Voosand international power players who
conspire to eliminate her and her
colleagues for conspiracies to sabotage
natural gas plants and complete a
merger that will ensure that the
technology remains in the hands of
those that will use it to benefit
the world.
(05:33):
When I read this, my mind goesto Kamala Harris, Donald Trump, other
than just putting in there the presidency,
if you change a few things here,
itcould be swung that direction.
If anybody's paying closeattention to politics right now,
Donald Trump is making a big play
for oil and to drill on that, and
that's what he wants to do.
(05:56):
Do you realize how close yourbook is to current politics?
And if so, what made you wantto write that one?
These thrillers are kind ofthe work that I do.
I'm always kind of payingattention to what's going on.
So I'll look at who'sexploring where in what part of the
world, and because energy is so high
stakes and because it's the basis
ofthe economy, anybody, any country's
economy, of course, it's fundamental
topresidential politics.
(06:28):
So, yeah, it kind of all goes together.
And there is a scene, there'sa scene in Washington.
The plays on a national level,it tends to play sort of a regulatory
constraining role.
On an international level,it's much more kind of who's doing
what deals with whom, who's selling
to whom.
(06:53):
So let's talk a little bitabout Lynn.
So Lynn is the protagonist.
She is the main character ofthis book, a strong woman, for one.
Congratulations.
We don't have, in my opinion,enough stories that is done around
strong women.
In a lot of books that I'veread where a woman has a part, she's
usually very watered down or she
has a little power, but not as much
as the man.
(07:18):
Lynn Dayton has all the powerand she's fighting the big boys in
this book.
How did you come up with Lynnas a character?
It's drawn, of course, from myown experience and from experiences
ofpeople that I know, but also a lot
from reading and kind of a lot from
just what anybody would think.
(07:42):
You know, here's the situation.
What would I do in this situation?
It is true.
It is true.
It's kind of a weird thingwith, with oil and gas that there,
it's not a lot of people, but they
control a lot of resources.
What's the best way to put that?
(08:02):
Like reserves that are worth a lot.
And so in my other job, I talkabout oil and gas companies, and
there'll be a few thousand people,
butthe reserves they control will be
in the billions of dollars.
And so that is a natural partof the oil and gas business is not
specific to Lyn as a protagonist.
(08:27):
Well, whenever I read her, I,my mind goes to the show Yellowstone.
If you ever read that or watchthat show.
Beth is the woman that youreally don't want to deal with.
Well, here I think the rolethat she has that's maybe different
thanlike the prototypical sort of oil
and gas or, you know, Guy role is,
is that she is really focused on,
as all engineers are, safety, the
safety of her people.
(09:02):
You know, she's responsiblefor a lot of people and she feels
that responsibility very, very deeply.
And so when her people arethreatened, that's kind of, that's
herlike, call to action, if you will.
So I don't want to give toomuch of the book away because the
book is great.
You guys need to go and readthis book.
(09:24):
Now this is only one book inthe series.
There's three other books thatdeals with Lynn Dayton.
Does a reader have to readthose other three books before they
read these?
This one or is these asstandalone books?
These are these.
They work as standalones.
It's the same protagonist, butthe story, you know, and there'll
be areference here and there, but they
definitely work as a standalone.
(09:49):
So you can come in at any bookin this series and it's self contained.
So how did you come up withthe plot of the book and especially
Henryvan der Voost?
Henry van der Boost, well, heis a character from the first book,
but what I really drew from was situations
I've seen.
(10:13):
And this is a, for yourreaders who read the Bible, there's
Abraham and Isaac.
And this is kind of an Abrahamand Isaac story that's a father son.
And it's kind of how much willthe father, will the father sacrifice
his son?
I mean, I don't think I'mgiving too much away by saying that
that's sort of the meta part of it
with the plot.
(10:39):
I wanted to really start withthe hub of the energy business, which
is Midland.
But as you see when you readit, kind of goes everywhere.
So to Spain, to hungary, tothe UK and those threads that involve
all of those.
(10:59):
But I really, I have wantedfor a while to write about Midland
because it's not like any place else.
It's not, you know, sort of,it's not giant.
It's not east Texas.
It's real.
It's really fast.
It's really aggressive.
And the people there arereally just, you know, kind of wary
because there's, because there's,
it'sso boom and bust and so, you know,
you can be paying, you know, $500
for a hotel, you know, one night
and,you know, 100 the next or 75 the
next.
(11:30):
And it's, you're kind of like,okay, well, it's fine, you know,
whatever.
So that's, and it's, it's,it's sort of like the desert, but
not exactly.
So I wanted to, to capture all that.
Well, you do a good job indoing that.
I'm being very careful becauseyour book takes off.
(11:51):
Right.
So if you read the book,you're not Lily gagging around before
things starts to happen in the book.
So it's kind of one of those,when I interview other authors, if
I say, hey, I can tell you like five
minutes, but your book takes off.
I appreciate that because tome, in the thriller, I love authors
whojust gets to whatever I'm getting
tobecause I have a short period of
time that I can read throughout the
day.
(12:13):
And if I'm reading the first40 pages and it's leading me to the
story, I've lost interest.
And that is definitely not thecase in your book.
I'm like, wow, this was goingto really just introduce and we just
going to go.
So doing what you do, youknow, how did you go from being a
chemical engineer and how did you
wind up writing thrillers?
Well, I am, as I said, kind ofchemical engineering wound up being
sort of my plan b.
(12:36):
And I do, you know, I love it.
I mean, it's this, it explainsa lot.
And so, you know, got mybachelor's, decided I worked in a
refinery, decided I didn't want to
work in a refinery sort of the rest
of my life.
So went to business school,and then, you know, the energy business
kind of goes up and down, booms and
busts.
(13:03):
And I caught a like toward theend of, of a boom, and it was kind
of headed down, but worked in it
for a long, long time.
Took some time off with my kids.
I was lucky enough to be ableto spend time with my kids.
And then it sort of came back up.
And by this point, I wasstarting to.
(13:26):
The Internet was far moreavailable, and it was kind of like,
okay, I know something about this
business.
I really care about it.
I'm looking at the supply anddemand situation.
Is there something I can write about?
Is there a way I can writeabout investing in the business?
That's what I've been doingfor the last several years on what
you would call the nonfiction side.
(13:53):
Simultaneously, I was able tofinally start, you know, version
one ofbook one several years ago and 50
revisions later.
It was a book, but it's a any,as all I'm sure of your writers tell
you, it's a process.
(14:14):
And I seemed to find as manyblind alleys as anybody when I was
first starting.
So I'll ask you this question,because I ask all authors this, and
I usually get the same answer.
Some, I get one that's different.
So these characters that youcreate and you're, and, you know,
toput on paper, do they become a living,
breathing person to you?
Do you live with them in yourhead all times?
(14:38):
Sometimes they go to sleepwhen I've, when I, when I've paused
orwhen I'm not, you know, I'm, when
I'm not in the middle of writing
abook, I don't think about them as
much when I'm writing the book and
particularly when I'm revising him.
(14:59):
They are real to me.
And I do think particularly,why are they doing what they're doing?
What are they after?
What's their motivation?
And what drives all books,certainly, at least all thrillers,
is conflict.
How many kinds of conflictscan I put in there?
So then I am trying toperpetually put them in hot water.
(15:23):
Now, I know that this is bookfour in the Lynn Darton Dayton series.
Is it ending or do you haveplans of writing more books based
onLynn Dayton?
It's, you know, and that'sactually many people.
And this, one of the keys forwriters, at least for me, is to name
the characters.
(15:46):
And so Lynn Dayton wasn't herfirst name.
It was something else.
Very often you'll see thenames of cities, and that's here,
that's delivered.
Dayton, like Dayton, Ohio.
So that's, you know, sort ofreals, Ohio central, you know, kind
of basic american.
I would, I don't have acontract for the next book, but I
do have places.
(16:09):
I, you know, at least often Istart with locations, and I do have
two locations that I would love to
put into the next book.
So, so that's where I am withit now.
I know that probably thisquestion I ask you probably sparked
some of lint dating in the, in the
book.
But as a female, that is anenergy investor, how hard is it?
(16:31):
A lot of things we read in thebook is, you know, is that true?
I'm sure by other dudes.
Are you trying to be shut downby men because you are a woman?
How do you feel it is for youas an energy investor?
On the energy investing side?
I get a lot of what I wouldcall just sort of normal responses,
andthat's a measure, really, of how
far things have gone and how much
things have changed in that role.
(17:02):
I'm not exerting a particularkind of power.
And very often, you'll seethis kind of, oh, not psyop stuff,
butcertainly, you know, the backstabbing,
thestruggles, whatever, over something
that's really just lies, as with
thepresidential election we're talking
about, that has a lot of.
(17:25):
That's important.
That's really.
And here on the energyinvesting, it's, I think, a lot about
my investors.
I want to get things right.
I want to get things right formyself, but it's not life or death.
And so with the book, I'mreally trying to, you know, up the
ante, which means a lot less meetings
inthe book.
(17:50):
So I have to ask.
I know you probably knew I wasgoing to ask this, but I got to know.
So can you tell us exactlywhat a cooling tower is and how you
got trapped in one?
Okay.
Yes.
Well, this was when I was ababy engineer, and it was either
anaccident or it was hazing.
(18:13):
I really, to this day, I don'tknow which it was.
I was working in a refinery,and I was a tech service engineer.
All the baby engineers startout as tech service engineers.
And so you're doing projectsaround the refinery, and this project
was to measure the temperature differential
in.
In a water tower.
(18:33):
It's not the.
Not the cooling tower that youthink of with, like, a nuclear plant,
but it's more like a big, square
wooden box.
The water runs through it, andby, you know, being exposed to the
air, it cools off.
It has it.
And so I was.
I measured the water on thetop, you know, and that's great.
You measured the temperature.
(18:54):
But then I had to go inside,and inside, it's like, it's dripping,
it's wet, it's dark, you know, it's
like being in a cave, really.
And the door only latched fromthe outside.
So I'm inside, I'm taking thetemperature measurements, and I can't
open the door.
(19:15):
And I can't open the door, andI can't open it.
And it seemed like, you know,an hour.
Well, finally, somehow, someway, I got the door open.
But for everybody who's everexperienced any kind of claustrophobia,
it just.
It really.
And it came back really hard,you know, when I wrote this scene
because, oh, my God, that was awful.
(19:40):
That's.
That's.
That is.
That is that story.
People have been.
If you've been in caves andkind of like, are been lost, it's
like, oh, my God.
And that's.
That's what I was trying to portray.
I mean, and that, and that is,I mean that's what happened.
But that's also, I was tryingto describe that and that there's
areference to that experience in the
first book.
(20:02):
So tell me, why do you thinkpolitics and, you know, things like
energy and things like that, why
doyou think that those make great thrillers?
Because they, things happenfast, which is part of thrillers.
There's a strong, prettystrong element of suspense.
You don't know how things aregoing to turn out.
(20:22):
It affects millions, billionsof people.
So the stakes personally froma people standpoint are high and
from a financial standpoint are high.
I think about this a lot withnew economy, developing economies
andthere's some discussion.
(20:43):
Well they should start offwith renewables.
Well, most developingeconomies start off with the coal.
And the reason for that, whichis, you know, I, and which I totally
understand the reason for that is
it's affordable.
It's, you know, it's, it'salways there.
You know, it's, you can, youcan get your electricity twenty four
seven and you just, you know, people
know how to do it and that's, that's
okay.
(21:12):
I mean you start with, youknow, some basic energy and you build
your, your economy and then, and
then as we get richer and we're fortunate
to be in that position, you know,
wethink of ways to reduce emissions,
to becleaner, to be, you know, more environmental.
And that's all important, too.
Yes, it did greatly.
(21:33):
I just always wonder thatbecause, you know, a lot of the thrillers
that we read deals with kidnapping,
death, murder.
I have run into a couple thatdoes deal with politics.
And I always wondered, okay,why does politics really, you know,
make a good, I mean, with the scene
we have playing out now, I mean if
anybody wrote a book the way this
isgoing, it would be a great read.
But I always wonder that, Imean, to tack onto that question,
do youever get any backlash from people
thatis political or from people that
isin the energy field?
(22:06):
I don't think so.
I mean I, not really.
There are definitely peoplewho have, you know, this have a certain
view.
There's a stereotype, youknow, oil and gas is bad and then
they don't, you know, so they can't,
they don't, there's no nuance.
That's kind of like not interested.
(22:27):
I mean, in fact, the second,the third book, I have scenes, it's
set in New Orleans and in northern
California and I recall a northern
California bookstore, you know, beautiful
place, all that kind of stuff.
And they just said you know,you know, could you make your next
book about renewables?
(22:48):
So that's, I do, you know,people do definitely have opinions.
And what I, what I reallywanted to do here and throughout
is thereare these very interesting risk takers
in the energy business, in the oil
and gas business, and they're perfect
for thrillers.
And I wasn't seeing that and Iwanted to portray that not unlike
theway that we've been introduced to
ranch life in Yellowstone and kind
of how.
(23:22):
That works, being that you arean energy, I have this question for
you.
This is another thing that'skind of on the ballot this year,
iswhen it comes to, you know, gasoline
cars versus electric cars.
I know in my state, which isCalifornia, Gavin Newsom, who's the
governor here, is pushing a collective
tomove us more towards the electric
side.
(23:42):
Biden is trying to put thingsin play that I guess by 20, by 2030
they would all be gone.
Do you feel like that therestill is a spot for gasoline driven
vehicles when electric vehicles now
is cleaner, seem to cost less energy
than gas at the pump.
What's your thoughts on that?
(24:04):
I absolutely do, of course.
But for me, I've got somefriends who've got, for example,
Teslas,and they're sweet cars.
The acceleration is beautiful.
They're quiet, all the thingsthat we love about electric cars,
sothey are amazing.
(24:26):
Now, I will say in terms ofthem being clean, electric cars being
clean, you look to what your energy
source is.
Electricity is a secondarysource, and it's fueled by primary
sources.
And the primary sources thatwe think of as clean are solar and
wind, hydro.
(24:48):
Nuclear is coming back in, butthere's also a lot of electricity
that'sfueled by some still by coal less
and natural gas, which is kind of
low carbon.
So I think in California, theelectricity is natural gas and renewables,
and that's all pretty low carbon.
(25:12):
In China, your electric car isbasically, you're running your car
on coalition.
So it's not quite as clean asone would think.
I worked for a company thatbecame part of BP that was based
inCalifornia, and I went to, I was
out in Los Angeles several times,
andI just really, really, really sympathize
and understand it's a beautiful state.
(25:39):
And if you're in Los Angelesand you're there when there's the
bowl effect, you're getting the smog
and the clean air.
We're all about clean air.
We're all about clean water.
And I totally get that.
I've always said when it cameto clean air and water, things like
that.
(25:59):
As horrible as the pandemicwas, it showed us a lot of different
things.
The United States was never asclean as it was in 2020.
We had animals that has nevercommunicated with their young underwater
doing so again, I think there's a
lot of things to be learned from
that.
Do you think, in the energyfield and beyond that, they took
alot of cues of what happened and
tried to make things better.
(26:23):
At this point, after thepandemic, I.
Think that if you'll talk to,for example, when I listen to, and
I listen to a lot of different folks
in the energy business, but in Pennsylvania
and Midland, wherever.
But what strikes me asPennsylvania, because Pennsylvania
is first,where the.
(26:43):
Where the shale oil was developed.
Shale oil, more shale, naturalgas was developed.
And the guys who run thosecompanies say, we hunt, we fish,
wewant everything to be just as clean
as everybody else does.
So the industry has a prettyvested interest in keeping things
cleaned up and keeping it rolling.
(27:09):
It's absolutely true that whatthe pandemic showed us is just like
what we're doing right now.
We could have theseconversations at a distance without
being in the same room, and that
was just.
It was enlightening.
And honestly, it's a wonderful thing.
I go to write to my parents.
(27:31):
My parents don't live here inthe same town that I do.
They're 300 miles away.
But one of the first people Iknew who used Zoom was my mother.
And all of a sudden, we'recommunicating much better and on
amuch more regular basis.
So I almost think what it wasparticularly good for, what the pandemic
was particularly good for was improving,
enhancing our ways of communication
and.
(27:59):
Yes, exactly.
You didn't have to, you know,get on a plane every time you wanted
to talk to somebody.
So, in regards to winnerscurse, can you tell us, what do you
want readers to take away from the
book?
I really.
My first thing with every bookis I want people to be entertained,
and Iwant them to, you know, have a good
story and, you know, want to turn
the pages and.
(28:28):
And get to the end of it.
I, you know, I'm verycognizant and sensitive to the difference
between fiction and nonfiction, and
so there's some, you know, there's
definitely real life stuff in there,
and I want people to kind of, you
know, here's what goes on with Midland
and here, you know, all this kind
of stuff.
But.
(28:48):
But really, it's just, youknow, I want them to have fun with
the book, and that's a.
That's primary.
Why should someone go out andbuy a copy of winner's curse?
Well, it's, it's entertaining.
It's my quick summary.
It's a suspenseful thrillerfilled with energy intrigue, as my
folks say, ripped from today's headlines.
(29:15):
And it's a story aboutconspiracies to get control of a
valuable oil field technology and
to sabotage natural gas plants.
And as the first woman to leadher drilling division and her company,
the protagonist, Lynn Dayton, her
challenges escalate to thwarting
these conspiracies.
(29:37):
So it's a, I put a lot into,into making it a good story.
So in closing, is thereanything you'd like to say to your
fans or anyone that's listening today?
Buy the book.
But no.
Yes.
I mean, of course.
But I really, I appreciate allmy fans and all my readers and I
think of you as I write the book
andparticularly as I revise it to make
it interesting to you.
(30:14):
And so it's my, you are myaudience and I want to, I want for
you to find the book interesting
andsuspenseful and to be flipping the
pages past midnight.
Well, hey, thanks for comingon the show.
I could tell you the book is fabulous.
I'm going to go check out yourother books now because you write
really well.
(30:37):
It really was intriguing as apage turner and you're dealing with
today's headlines.
And I do think as an author,that's bold, because now in today's
climate, if we just say anything
aboutpolitics, whether it's for or against,
you get your throat jumped down.
So I do think that you werevery courageous writing about this.
Anytime you want to come backon the show, you know how to get
ahold of me.
(30:58):
Please let me know.
David, thank you so much.
This has been so much fun.
All right, guys, that was thefabulous La Starks.
You can get her book winter'scurse at Amazon and other places
booksare sold.
If you are a Kindle unlimitedsubscriber, you can read it for free.
However, I remind you, asalways, just because you download
itdoes not support LA.
(31:23):
You need to read the book andturn to pages for her to get paid.
Also, while you're there, goahead and check out her other books,
which I'm sure is just as great as
this one.
Alright, once again, thank youfor joining me today.
I know you have many choicesin true crime and interview podcasts.
I am grateful that for thelast two and a half years you have
chose me.
(31:44):
You have been listening to theonly three faceted podcasts of its
kind.
Be good to yourself and each other.
And always remember, alwaysstay humble.
An act of kindness can makesomeones day.
A little love and compassioncan go a long way.
And remember that there is anextraordinary person in all of us.
(32:05):
Ill catch you.
Catch you guys on the next one.
Don't forget to rate, commentand subscribe.
Join us on social media.
One link to the link tree hasit all.
Feel free to drop us a line@trucrimentauthorsmail.com.
dot Sound mixing and editingby David McClam intro script by Sophie
Wild and David McClam theme music
Legendary by new Alchemist introduction
andending credits by Jackie Voice.
(32:38):
See you next time on true crime.
Authors and extraordinary people.
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