20 Serial Killers - Last Words and Interviews

20 Serial Killers - Last Words and Interviews

20 Killers. 16 Executed, 3 Given Life Sentence, And One Ed Kemper.

This is a compilation of convicted serial killers last words or interviews before execution or death.
This video is meant for educational purposes only. Thank you for watching! Viewer discretion for distressing content.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:08):
Well, I'm a serial killer. I've killed eight women, six
in the state and two in New York.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
I'm not a big serial killer by way. Eight people.

Speaker 1 (00:15):
That's not of Lanners.

Speaker 2 (00:18):
There's a lot of other guys you can go see.

Speaker 1 (00:21):
I saw this woman walking along the road with a stroller.
I pulled off the side of the road. She came
into the driveway, walked up the driveway. I was behind
the house. She saw me, and I grabbed her. I

(00:47):
told her that if she didn't do what I wanted,
that I would smash the babyshead against the wall to house.

Speaker 3 (00:57):
Where.

Speaker 2 (00:57):
I think that's important.

Speaker 1 (00:58):
I've always said that I never understood why the women
never really resisted me. I never I'm not a big
strong guy. Nobody ever seen the fight, and I've always
had attributed to her that I must say something like that,
similar to to the other victims. I raped her strangler,

(01:19):
I left her for dead. The only reason she's not
dead has nothing nothing to do with me. So when
I attacked her, I don't believe I was in control.

Speaker 2 (01:28):
I don't think I could have stopped.

Speaker 1 (01:31):
The reason I say that is because it's a very
clear point to me. After she was dead, when I
was feeling. I didn't really feel anything. I mean, I
knew what was going on, and I saw what was
going on, but it was more like watching an old
film that we used to see as kids in the
high school, you know, I mean in elementary school, and

(01:53):
they've been played so many times. They're all spliced, and
it'd be going along in a jump. You would think
that if you killed somebody that you would have that
face imprinted in your mind and that you wouldn't be
able to get it out of your mind.

Speaker 2 (02:07):
I don't have that.

Speaker 1 (02:08):
I never had that.

Speaker 2 (02:09):
The only only face.

Speaker 1 (02:11):
That I can see is what was in the newspapers
a few days later when they were when they were missing,
you know, like the high school pictures.

Speaker 2 (02:17):
Anybody know where this girl is?

Speaker 4 (02:18):
Is type thing.

Speaker 1 (02:27):
That's when I think of them. That's the picture I see.
I don't see them as they were when I killed them.
I can't see them as I was killing them. When
I say I don't have any remorse, that doesn't mean
that I don't have any regrets. That I don't wish
that didn't happen, there was something I could do to
bring them back or anything. It's just that I don't
have any feelings towards them. I don't feel I feel

(02:47):
like I should be tormented by by by what they
look like when I was killing them, or by tormented
by what was happening immediately before I killed them and stuff,
and none of that's there.

Speaker 2 (02:57):
None, none of that's there at all.

Speaker 5 (03:05):
If I had to choose between whether I'm going to
be executed on Thursday or know that I'm going to
spend the rest of my days in prison and die
an old man, old and broken, I would rather die
in prison. I just swung at him with the tire
iron and kept swinging until he was down. It's like

(03:26):
banging your head on a brick wall, it really is.
The thing is nobody wants to listen. I never talked
to the police. I never gave a statement. I regret
that now. I wish I would have been more like
so many of these guys who do get arrested and
they just don't shut up, you know. I wish I
had told him everything up front.

Speaker 6 (03:52):
Maybe one of the benefits of me talking to you
today is that you'll see that maybe not everything is
true that you've heard about me. Well, am I am
I pure evil? Am I the face of terror sitting
here in front of you, or am I able to
talk to you man to.

Speaker 7 (04:07):
Man, but sitting down here now. And let me make clear, I'm.

Speaker 6 (04:18):
Not sitting here trying to influence you, and I'm not
putting on a game face.

Speaker 7 (04:24):
I'm not counting anybody.

Speaker 4 (04:26):
I'm just being me.

Speaker 8 (04:34):
So I gotta ask you, how are you?

Speaker 9 (04:36):
How are you feeling this morning?

Speaker 3 (04:39):
Mm?

Speaker 10 (04:39):
Hmmm?

Speaker 11 (04:41):
Hello?

Speaker 2 (04:42):
Numb?

Speaker 4 (04:44):
I mean, I don't know how does this How you
would expect someone to feel me if they told you
tomorrow you're dying, how would you feel? It's not something
we all die, but it's knowing your exact date and time.
That's that It's hard to deal with. But I'm at

(05:04):
peace with myself. I mean, as far as it's my release,
my punishment's over. I've been here twenty eight years now,
I'm tired.

Speaker 8 (05:17):
So you've been here twenty eight years.

Speaker 4 (05:21):
I've been locked up twenty eight years since December nineteen
eighty seven, so I'm a little tired and in confinement.

Speaker 8 (05:31):
And explain what that's like.

Speaker 4 (05:34):
Imagine I'm spending twenty eight years in this room. There's
no way to describe it. It's it's exceptionally difficult. I've
had a lot of support. A lot of people love

(05:55):
them andn't care about me, love it, a lot of
support outside. That's maybe a little easier, but still it's
very difficult to spend twenty eight years in a.

Speaker 8 (06:06):
Real mindness, a lot of thinking.

Speaker 4 (06:11):
You have to be able to look in the mirror
like yourself.

Speaker 8 (06:14):
Do you like yourself?

Speaker 4 (06:15):
Yeah, I'm comfortable with myself. There's a lot of things
that my younger in my past, you know, I wish
I could change, but I'm at peace with myself. The
state's about to kill me, and they think they're getting justice,
and I'm like, well, they're not getting justice. They're just
gonna kill somebody else. It's like and I'd like, they

(06:42):
killed me twenty eight years ago when they lock me up.
Now they're just releasing me.

Speaker 12 (06:51):
So you're saying you didn't murder these women. No, you
didn't murder Natalie Holly, Stephanie Collins, Oh, Terry Lynne Matthews.

Speaker 4 (07:00):
No, I didn't know. I've never seen them, never met them,
And I met them through photographs, to cram scene photos,
to newspaper articles. I've gotten to know them fairly well
through newspaper articles and crap scene photos, police reports.

Speaker 8 (07:21):
So ten juries convicted you though, yes.

Speaker 4 (07:25):
Ten juries heard the same evidence repeatedly, over and over
and over.

Speaker 8 (07:29):
Nothing changed, evidence linking you to the murders.

Speaker 4 (07:35):
Yes, people's testimony in the physical evidence, Well, physical evidence
actually linked me.

Speaker 8 (07:43):
There's hair and fibers, right, hair.

Speaker 4 (07:45):
And fibers that Mike Malone prepared, not from me.

Speaker 12 (07:53):
So I've been hearing you talk for the last twenty
minutes and you're going over the case. You're going over
the evidence and talking about it being flawed and tainted
and planted. So is Florida basically killing an innocent man?

Speaker 4 (08:07):
Yes, for the murder of Stephanie Collins, Natalie Holly, and
Terry and Matthews. And they're about to execute me for
Terry and matthews murder. They execute someone who absolutely did
not commit that murder.

Speaker 8 (08:21):
So you're innocent.

Speaker 4 (08:22):
There was another man confessed to it, So you're innocent,
absolutely innocent of the murder. I had nothing to do
with it.

Speaker 12 (08:31):
Are you gonna have anything final to say right before
the injection?

Speaker 4 (08:36):
No, it's my release. They're not gonna get no justice
out of that. They won't. If anything, they'll leave angry.
They'll say, well that was too easy. There was nothing there.
Is it gonna change anything for them when they wake
up the day after? Is anything gonna be different? Now

(08:57):
I'm not gonna be there. Where's their focus of their young? Now?
They're still gonna be without their child. There's still gonna
be numb. You know, maybe it won't happen today. Maybe
it'll happen a week or six weeks, or maybe something
will happen a year down the road or whatever that
they'll say, well, wow, maybe something won't change. They'll say, well,
maybe I want to look at the evidence. It might

(09:19):
be too late for me. But they owe it to
their child. I would if it was my child. They
owe their child that much.

Speaker 8 (09:30):
Are you going to be looking at them right before
you're executed?

Speaker 4 (09:33):
Well, if they're in the window, I probably will.

Speaker 8 (09:36):
I to eye. You're gonna look at all of them?

Speaker 4 (09:38):
Well, I don't know, depends if I can see them
or not.

Speaker 8 (09:42):
But you plan to or if I can see them? Yes?
And would you say anything?

Speaker 4 (09:48):
I don't know if I'll say anything because I don't
know if it would do any good. You know, what
would you say to them? I encourage you to examine
the evidence, hire an independent someone that you trust, someone
you feel comfortable with and go through.

Speaker 8 (10:04):
Is that what you're going to say?

Speaker 4 (10:06):
That's what I would say. That's all I can say.
I didn't do it. You're not gonna believe me, Fine,
then there's no point you're saying that. But don't take
my word for it. Don't take the police doing an
independent analysis. Let them do it.

Speaker 8 (10:24):
Did they tell you what time the execution takes place?

Speaker 4 (10:27):
Well, I think it's scheduled for six PM. I was like,
after twenty eight years of this, it's being in this

(10:49):
box for twenty eight years. It's a release. My punishment's over.
They can't hurt me no more.

Speaker 8 (10:55):
So what do you do in your cell? All those
years sitting there? Read?

Speaker 4 (11:01):
What books? I read all of them? The you know,
the works of our the philosophers, needs, I've read them
all uh history. I mean you're limited to what you
can do. The reading is pretty much the only thing
writing reading writing. H I had a TV. I watched

(11:26):
TV State upon the World, events and politics and stuff.

Speaker 8 (11:31):
What do you watch anything in politics that's interesting to you?

Speaker 4 (11:34):
Mostly watched the PBS shows, the offbeat news programs because
they're more in depth, more coverage. A lot of the
master Piece and mysteries and stuff like that. I didn't
watch a lot of the mainstream TV. Do art work draw?

Speaker 8 (11:52):
What do you draw?

Speaker 4 (11:53):
I did different types of drawings for Rosalie, for the kids.
I didn't draw for nobody.

Speaker 13 (11:59):
Else for her.

Speaker 4 (12:02):
But hopefully some day the truth will come out. Let's
I mean, it might be too late for me. It's
too late for me twenty eight years ago. I came
to prison twenty eight years ago. So had I not
been in prison for the Ohio case, maybe not just
would have happened. Maybe my credibility would have been different.

(12:23):
I don't know. That's in hindsight. You can sit back
and say, well, there's a lot of what elf Er
I should have, but you can't change that. We get
one go around, and I have to accept the hand
that has helped me. Some of us don't get the opportunity.
Dying down nurse not as bad as dying a car

(12:46):
wreck or upside down the ditch, or in a house fire,
or or like the victims died or I mean, there's
many worse ways to go. And at least I had
the opportunity to say goodbye to my people. I had
a chance to prepare myself.

Speaker 14 (13:05):
I have, you know, so, do you know how many
people you murdered?

Speaker 11 (13:24):
Yeah, but I'd rather I'd rather not mention it.

Speaker 9 (13:28):
By my account, it's twenty two people. Is that the
same number that you have?

Speaker 11 (13:32):
That's approximately it. I wish I could go back and
change things, but there's no way I can do it.
So I'll try to do, you know, make the best
of it. If I had some way to make amends
to them, I would try to do that, you know.
Being locked up in here on death row with the
execution data week away, I can't really do a whole
lot for them.

Speaker 9 (14:03):
Do you think about those two boys in Cincinnati?

Speaker 11 (14:06):
Uh? No, I don't really think about them. I mean
I can't go back and think about the cases, you know, individually.
I have too much other problems, too much other things
I have to focus on and worry about.

Speaker 9 (14:18):
You know, those are two young boys, just thirteen or
fourteen years old.

Speaker 11 (14:22):
Yeah, it was. You know, I regret the fact that
I shot them.

Speaker 9 (14:26):
Now, why did you shoot them?

Speaker 11 (14:28):
Well, I was just waiting. I was sitting on that
railroad track waiting for the first either interracial couple or
black to walk by.

Speaker 9 (14:37):
And what was your mission?

Speaker 11 (14:39):
Well, to try to get a race war started, I
mixed race couples and blacks. I figured that once I
started doing it and showed them how other white supremacists
would do the same thing follow suit.

Speaker 9 (14:51):
So you hope people would copy it?

Speaker 11 (14:52):
I would hope. Yeah, I hope that other white nationalists
would do the same thing.

Speaker 9 (14:56):
Do you think you're a hero to those hate groups?

Speaker 11 (14:59):
Well, that's what they take, you know. I just felt
like I was at war, you know, and it was
the survival of the white race, was at state stuff
like that. You know.

Speaker 9 (15:12):
Do you feel that way now?

Speaker 11 (15:14):
No, not at all. Now I can see now I
was wrong. It's wrong. Violence is wrong at any time,
you know.

Speaker 9 (15:21):
Do you feel that way because you got caught?

Speaker 11 (15:24):
No, not at all now. As a matter of fact,
it took me many many years to change. I actually
thought as misgod as I was, I was doing the
will of God, you know, I thought I was actually
doing right, this is what God wanted me to do.

Speaker 9 (15:41):
But the police were pursued.

Speaker 15 (15:51):
The first time I killed somebody, and it was such
a rush.

Speaker 16 (15:55):
How many people, lord, I.

Speaker 17 (15:58):
Don't know, I don't know.

Speaker 16 (16:03):
Ten, yeah, twenty probably suty it's up there, fifty.

Speaker 18 (16:11):
But see, I'm not Billy the kid making notches on
my poster soul. I know it's been a lot. I

(16:33):
am hatred. When you look at me, you look at hate.

Speaker 16 (16:36):
When I look at you, I look at hate.

Speaker 18 (16:38):
When you look at me, you know what hate is?
Because I don't know what love is to words. I
don't like to use this love and sorry because I'm
about hate.

Speaker 15 (16:48):
I don't have no feelings, no more, no motion.

Speaker 19 (16:53):
No.

Speaker 15 (16:55):
I like to watch the eyes fade, the pupil fade.

Speaker 16 (16:59):
What do you like about that?

Speaker 15 (17:02):
It's just like setting their soul free?

Speaker 16 (17:06):
You also killed children because some get killed? Yes, why
would that happen?

Speaker 15 (17:13):
I didn't want them to live through the pain I
lived through.

Speaker 16 (17:16):
What did you do to her, sir?

Speaker 15 (17:18):
Her neck was cut?

Speaker 16 (17:21):
How did you do that?

Speaker 15 (17:22):
Well for a knaft?

Speaker 16 (17:24):
So what if I called you something that you didn't
like and you think about killing me?

Speaker 18 (17:31):
If it was in fighting, you know, get your head
down in the concrete, then you.

Speaker 15 (17:38):
Know, so be it.

Speaker 16 (17:39):
But what happens when my head goes down to the concrete.

Speaker 15 (17:43):
Well, what do you think happened? It cracked like a
cop and nut.

Speaker 20 (17:56):
Why do you want to be executed?

Speaker 21 (18:00):
I have to be as I will kill again.

Speaker 15 (18:05):
No, I would do it again.

Speaker 21 (18:05):
I've been lasting kids NonStop since I was thirteen years old,
over half my life. Anything happened, I can guarantee I'd
do it again, and sooner or later I would kill
another child. I've done it before and at the time
I liked it.

Speaker 15 (18:28):
Did your execution do any good? I think it would.

Speaker 21 (18:34):
I think a few child more esters anyway, I'm going
to think twice before they do anything again.

Speaker 13 (18:42):
How do you live with yourself daily?

Speaker 21 (18:46):
At times, it's not easy, I said. There's times I
think about what I've done. I think about some of
the things the boys said before they died, and that's
real hard to think about. At other times you just
try to put everything out of my mind. If you
look forward to die in a way, yeah, I could

(19:11):
be a relief. I don't have to think about all
these things anymore. And I know that's the only way
I can guarantee I'm not going to hurt anybody else.

Speaker 22 (19:28):
Total isolation from everybody that I had been with for
our most six years. The first week I us here
was the worst week. The last ten years was just
like that.

Speaker 23 (19:45):
Years of.

Speaker 22 (19:47):
A drug nineman days of not knowing where you are
or why you've done. Living in prison every day is
a struggle, even at its best, and I know that

(20:10):
without him and his strength that has sustained me, I
couldn't have made it even that far. I'm sorry for
the hurt that I've caused so many people today. If
it were possible, I wish that I could take every

(20:32):
bit of hurt on myself.

Speaker 23 (20:40):
You want to control your destiny.

Speaker 11 (20:42):
That's that's right. That's right. That's a good way.

Speaker 23 (20:45):
I mean, that's what this is all about.

Speaker 11 (20:46):
That's a good way to say it. You got two
types of people.

Speaker 24 (20:49):
You got people that lead and people to follow, and
I just decided I wasn't gonna be a follower.

Speaker 23 (20:58):
How many people have you killed?

Speaker 25 (21:00):
I mean, what is it that you want to come
clean about.

Speaker 24 (21:03):
I have several homicides that I personally have dealings with,
and there's been other people that was involved, but I'll
never reveal their names ever because has nothing to do.
This is me. This is my end, my life. I'm
writing this story. When this all first started, I was
in the Ohio penitentiary. I'd come to a decision in

(21:26):
the Ohio prison that I was serving twenty six to
life there, and I just, I just I can't conceive
that amount of time.

Speaker 20 (21:34):
The information that.

Speaker 24 (21:35):
I have and the things that I know and the
things that I've been a part of could get me
to where I wanted to be, probably a lot quicker,
because I'd rather be, to be honest with you, I'd
rather be deceased dead than to be spend my life
in prison and watch my family drop off one by
one and when I die in the end of an

(21:56):
old man from being in prison, no one left to
mourn me I'm dead.

Speaker 25 (22:00):
Let me ask you, John, how does it does it
make it easier to kill someone? Because you you vision, everything,
you look at, everything other than your family is just
one and the same.

Speaker 23 (22:12):
That's basically an object.

Speaker 3 (22:13):
Right.

Speaker 23 (22:14):
Does that make it easier?

Speaker 24 (22:16):
I would have to say it would. For I can't
conceive or understand why people families want to they seek
for closure after things like this. I can't.

Speaker 20 (22:30):
I don't understand that. I don't understand how.

Speaker 24 (22:32):
You got people that, like in militaries that kill people
soldiers and then they have to go through therapy and
because they're I mean, I can't understand what it is
that people. I can't figure it out, why, why they
feel bad, why they feel that way?

Speaker 25 (22:52):
So what what is it that you want to happen next?
I know that you, you know, you basically want to
control your destiny and you want to listen and what
where where do you go next?

Speaker 23 (23:04):
I mean, what what happens?

Speaker 24 (23:05):
But I'm still see the end. For me, it's it'll
be soon, it'll be within it, it'll be within my
family's lifetime. And which is okay with me?

Speaker 23 (23:15):
Because what you want is to die.

Speaker 11 (23:17):
That's correct.

Speaker 24 (23:20):
That's the only thing.

Speaker 20 (23:22):
Worthy of a warrior.

Speaker 11 (23:23):
I guess you could.

Speaker 26 (23:24):
Say, m tell me in a sentence who you are?

Speaker 4 (23:34):
Nobody?

Speaker 15 (23:39):
I'm nobody.

Speaker 3 (23:41):
Death it happens to everybody.

Speaker 24 (23:44):
I'm not. I don't fear of being dying. The only
thing I that I even worry about is the emotions
that my family might feel.

Speaker 23 (23:53):
When you die. Where do you think you'll go? Do
you think death will be better?

Speaker 24 (23:59):
I personally feel feel that.

Speaker 20 (24:02):
That personally that.

Speaker 24 (24:06):
If there is a god, if if there is a devil.

Speaker 27 (24:11):
But you know I'm much an answering my direct question.
A lot was made that you're a devil worshiper. Do
you worship the devil? Have you ever studied Satanism.

Speaker 24 (24:20):
I personally don't care either way, because I refuse to
worship anything that I can't it's not, you know, tangible
or made yourself known to me, or I feel like
it's a conspiracy. You know what I'm saying, And so
I'll never bow down to anything or anybody gets not
in my blood. And if there is a god or

(24:42):
a devil, if I go, if I could get sent
to the whatever you hell, if I get sent there,
I'll spend my whole life trying to eternity, trying to
take over Hell, because I'll bow down to no person,
no entity, no being, no god of this world, no god.

Speaker 20 (25:00):
Of any other world or any other universe.

Speaker 3 (25:08):
Kill thirteen people.

Speaker 28 (25:10):
It would be improper for me to comment on my
li convictions and on my pending case here in San Francisco.

Speaker 4 (25:18):
Why because of my appeals.

Speaker 27 (25:21):
Are you appealing these because you say you're innocent. You
didn't kill thirteen people. That is correct, you didn't kill
thirteen people.

Speaker 28 (25:31):
Again, it would be improper from me to comment in
any regard to that question.

Speaker 27 (25:36):
You have now entered a very rare group of people
in this country. You're in the ranks of Charlie Manson,
Ted Bundy, you claim you didn't commit these murders, but
you're right in there now.

Speaker 3 (25:46):
As far as everybody else.

Speaker 4 (25:48):
Is going to see.

Speaker 28 (25:48):
Serial killers do on a small scale what governments do
in a large one. They are a product of the times,
and these are bloodthirsty times. Even psychopaths have emotions if
you dig deep enough. But then again, maybe they don't.

Speaker 3 (26:04):
Do you have emotions, Richard, no comments. Tell me what
kind of emotions you have going through you right now?

Speaker 28 (26:12):
I'll tell you what I gave up on love and
happiness a long time ago. Why I don't care to
explain that like them. Let the quote stand for itself.
People in this day and age are brainwashed and programmed
like a computer. It'd be nothing more than puppets. This nation,

(26:42):
this country's founded in violence. Violent delights tend to have
violent ends. It's madness is something rare in individuals, but
in groups, people, in ages.

Speaker 3 (26:53):
It is a rule.

Speaker 28 (26:55):
Killing is killing, whether done for duty, profit or fun.
And murdered themselves into this democracy.

Speaker 27 (27:02):
You got to read in your script, Richard, but you're
not much an answering my direct question. A lot was
made that you're a devil worshiper? Do you worship the devil?
Have you ever studied Satanism?

Speaker 28 (27:16):
There are different sects of Satanism.

Speaker 3 (27:19):
Have you still just yes or no? Have you studied? Yes?
I have? Are you? Are you a worshiper of the devil?
No comment?

Speaker 28 (27:26):
Come on, Richard, I can tell you a little bit
about Satanism.

Speaker 3 (27:29):
Well, I'm interested in hearing what you got to say.

Speaker 28 (27:32):
It is undefiled wisdom instead of hypocritical self deceit. It
is power without charity. A Satanist admits to being evil?

Speaker 3 (27:44):
Do you admit to being evil? Richard?

Speaker 28 (27:46):
We are all evil in some form or another, are
we not.

Speaker 3 (27:51):
I'm asking you the questions, my friend.

Speaker 28 (27:56):
Yes, I am evil, not one hundred percent, but I
am evil. Evil has always existed, perfect world most people seek.
She'll never come to pass, and it's gonna get worse.

Speaker 20 (28:16):
Your father positively, okay, on the tenth.

Speaker 10 (28:21):
My dad died thirteen.

Speaker 15 (28:22):
Days ago, June tenth.

Speaker 29 (28:24):
But you really die. You are scheduled for executions eight days.

Speaker 15 (28:30):
Yes, sir, how are you doing?

Speaker 30 (28:33):
You know?

Speaker 3 (28:33):
Uh?

Speaker 10 (28:34):
You know, I'm a Christian, so you know I believe
that you know, Paradise awaits one way or the other.
So I tell people all the time, I'm either going
home or home. So I'm either going home to the
world or home to God. So, you know, as the
days get closer, I can feel the pressure on my shoulders.
They call it clinical depression, where I just start having
less motivation to do things, less energy. You get frustrated

(28:57):
at the at the system. How can they not see
you know, my situation is wrong. Uh you know, I
used to write all the time and have a lot
of energy, and I just don't have it anymore. I
just feel like I've been beaten down.

Speaker 29 (29:10):
And you were sitting on the outward bound to trip.

Speaker 10 (29:15):
Yeah, well, you know, I'm a city boy at heart.

Speaker 20 (29:18):
You know what I'm saying.

Speaker 10 (29:18):
I'm really not into the nature and bugs and and
the weather and you know, so you know, when they
sent me on a two week canoe trip.

Speaker 29 (29:27):
Which sounds wonderful for me, but.

Speaker 10 (29:29):
Yeah, you know, you know I liked the canoe but
what what was It wasn't the canoeing. It was bad.
It was it is an everglades. I mean, we're seeing
alligators everywhere.

Speaker 2 (29:37):
Now.

Speaker 10 (29:37):
My question is, and I didn't even realize that until
I got here. What happened if I would have fell
out and got to eat my an alligator. Who would
have been responsible?

Speaker 11 (29:44):
You know?

Speaker 10 (29:44):
Did my parents sign some type of waiver because there
was alligators everywhere?

Speaker 29 (29:48):
Well, a young man of thirteen, you better watch out.
Didn't and handle the alligators earlier.

Speaker 20 (29:53):
But what happened then?

Speaker 11 (29:54):
You you didn't?

Speaker 10 (29:56):
Forday, we would canoe and until like nighttime and pull in.
I guess they had certain designations marked and sometimes we
pull in like at midnight.

Speaker 15 (30:06):
There's bugs.

Speaker 10 (30:07):
You could reach out and grab a handful of bugs,
and then they want us to cook dinner, and you know,
I'm like, man, I can't. And one of the things
that the program was to teach you immediate. You know,
every action there's a reaction, so immediate consequences to your decision.

(30:28):
And one of the things I learned is did if
I don't pay attention to the lessons? We had these
bags for a property and you had to see them
right or they would be waterproof. Well I didn't listen
and it fell on the water and all my stuff
got wet. So I didn't have my own tint. I
didn't have no toilet paper anymore, and I didn't like that.
So basically I was my typical stubborn self, and I
told me, know what, I ain't doing this no more,
take me home.

Speaker 29 (30:48):
But you went not to attack by.

Speaker 10 (30:49):
Now we were attacked by monkeys though absolutely monkeys were
jumping from one side to the trees on the other
side we were at and come trying to come over there,
and they could figure out where the monkeys came from.
But there was a whole bunch of 'em.

Speaker 20 (31:05):
A whole bunch.

Speaker 10 (31:06):
I wanna get out and get one, but they said
they have diseases.

Speaker 29 (31:08):
Right the details of uh of what happened, but uh,
in fact it is said three people were killed and uh, I, Y,
you'll deny that you were even close to the scene
or how how do you.

Speaker 10 (31:25):
Well, there's no longer a question. There's no longer a
question of my innocence. That's question is out the door.
The question is what is anyone gonna do about it?

Speaker 11 (31:31):
Now?

Speaker 10 (31:32):
I mean a A perfect example is, Y, you're here
with these guys. They show up at your hotel room
in a car. You're gonna assume that that car is
you know, these are your friends. So when Jason shows
up to pick me up in a car, I'm gonna
assume it's okay. You get it, and you get arrested,
and you come to find out and he just murdered
someone from that car. You're gonna end up on Texas
death row. You're gonna end up right here because you
trusted one of these guys to show up and pick

(31:54):
you up in a in a real car that wasn't
just stolen.

Speaker 29 (31:57):
But uh, trusting in chasing was a bad choice. Let's
let's face it, some sort of a bad app So
where you I.

Speaker 10 (32:05):
Was homeless and starving, so where could.

Speaker 11 (32:09):
I get using drugs? Stealing me drugs?

Speaker 10 (32:12):
He offered me a place to stay, he offered me food,
so I chose. I chose that, which I shouldn't have.
I regretted every every minute. Now, cherish every minute. Scherish
every minute, make the most of it because uh, you know,
they can they can, they can do. You, like me,
be in the wrong situation at the wrong time, and
there's no telling where you end up. You might want
to get out of Texas as soon as possible.

Speaker 17 (32:39):
You've got me annoyed with you, now, Yeah that's the truth.

Speaker 15 (32:45):
How mad are you?

Speaker 2 (32:48):
I bet.

Speaker 11 (33:00):
Pretty?

Speaker 17 (33:03):
I feel a little flushed, So that means that I've
reached the point in my life that I'm a little annoyed.

Speaker 20 (33:14):
What would you like to do?

Speaker 2 (33:16):
It doesn't matter.

Speaker 17 (33:18):
I don't think it's gone to the point that I'm
actually gonna do anything stupid. I'm just curious to myself
why it happened. I don't know why it happened. I'm
actually almost glad it did happen because you had a
chance to see something. But I don't know why it's

(33:38):
why it happened.

Speaker 4 (33:41):
Did you feel I was criticizing you?

Speaker 2 (33:42):
Yes.

Speaker 31 (33:54):
All I'm asking you can do if you can find
in your hearts to have it, is to give me
a second chance of life.

Speaker 32 (34:02):
How is the person you are now different from the
person you were when you got on death row twenty
one years ago?

Speaker 16 (34:14):
More thoughtful, love myself more.

Speaker 32 (34:19):
I've had the privilege of witnessing his compassion, his thoughtfulness,
and I'm not the only one. He's had many other
pen pals around the world and has had a huge
impact on their lives as well.

Speaker 31 (34:37):
I understand too that if I do you clean to
see I know that instead of dying on the nineteenth,
I may die youse later, but it won't be in
the free brow it'll be in prison, and I can
accept that because there's other avenues in prison that I
can take to better myself and to better others along

(34:57):
the way.

Speaker 30 (35:09):
And yeah, someone kills you something, it's.

Speaker 2 (35:15):
Bullshit right.

Speaker 30 (35:19):
To telling you something so they can set you up
for something they want you to do, but then so
they can move the situation around to what's going to
help them.

Speaker 2 (35:32):
I guess. I guess people do that.

Speaker 13 (35:34):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (35:35):
I don't.

Speaker 26 (35:37):
It's why I'm locked up forty five years this time, Yeah,
for over over some bullshit two years last.

Speaker 2 (35:46):
It's a long time.

Speaker 30 (35:48):
And you know why I've been locked up all these years?

Speaker 2 (35:50):
Why is that.

Speaker 30 (35:53):
Because I had no help? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (35:56):
I think you're one hundred percent right.

Speaker 30 (36:00):
My mother went to prison and it back for you.

Speaker 2 (36:06):
It's a long, hard road.

Speaker 30 (36:08):
Represents they want it back to you and tell me
I love each Arnie was some kind of game. They
won't meet it to run and tell you something, so
they send you for something.

Speaker 20 (36:20):
M h m hmm.

Speaker 30 (36:22):
And those guys that you're talking to, okay, and those
guys that you're talking let's call angela telephone. I'm lovely
monitored and they quit it. Did you ever read how
many gears they cut off.

Speaker 4 (36:37):
Who's that?

Speaker 30 (36:43):
I gotta picture of you?

Speaker 7 (36:46):
I know I sent you quite a few.

Speaker 30 (36:49):
Yeah, I want to get one phone call, and I
got three people I gotta call. Alrighty, I'm just telling you, man,

(37:11):
only just mind me.

Speaker 2 (37:14):
Okay, that's that's such good advice. Something.

Speaker 30 (37:21):
Don't tell she wants me in making it something to help.

Speaker 4 (37:30):
That's good advice, you.

Speaker 30 (37:34):
Said, I see it. Shove me in the car. They
all right, and get you. Then I tole the car. Right, Yeah,
the two cents to get they want. I gotta roll,
so I'll call you one again.

Speaker 13 (37:51):
All right, my brother, thank you for calling.

Speaker 33 (37:52):
Man.

Speaker 2 (37:53):
You take care of yourself.

Speaker 34 (38:03):
The clowning was relaxation for me. I enjoyed entertaining kids
like some people are, you know. They they unwind in
different ways, either either were going out drinking or that
I could put on clown makeup. And I was relaxed,
and I enjoyed doing it.

Speaker 16 (38:18):
It was twice, it was only twice a month.

Speaker 18 (38:21):
That I did.

Speaker 20 (38:22):
Yeah, this was not using for a lawyer to draw
kids to you.

Speaker 2 (38:26):
No.

Speaker 16 (38:26):
We would visit different hospitals.

Speaker 34 (38:39):
And entertain the children there, and we didn't entertain them
with handcuffs or anything like that. All we used was
balloon animals and small toys and stuff like that. But
we also did parades and in the summertime, like Fourth
of July, I used to be in four parades in
one day. I've always told people when I got into
clown makeup, I regressed.

Speaker 4 (38:58):
In the childhood.

Speaker 34 (38:59):
It was fun being a clown because you could you
could be yourself or just let yourself go and act
a fool. You could be slapstick and funny and have
a good time. That's why I always enjoyed clowning. Clowning
has taken a bad name because of what they've used
in Mike.

Speaker 35 (39:28):
I'm a patient person, got a good listing year and
try to help people.

Speaker 2 (39:36):
You're patient with a good ear, and you try to
help people. Yes, when you're not trying to murder them.

Speaker 4 (39:41):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (39:50):
When Kallenger's reign of terror ended, three were dead, including
his fourteen year old son.

Speaker 2 (39:56):
You murdered your own son, Yes, I did? Why did
you there?

Speaker 35 (40:01):
He was a sacrifice I wish to murder it three
million people the planet Earth, and he was a sacrifice
to see if I could murder the woman off my
own At the end, of murdering all the people on earth.
I was going to murder my own family and then
take my own life and become God.

Speaker 2 (40:20):
What do you think of the death penalty. I'm opposed
to it. The state has no right to take your life,
but you can murder other people.

Speaker 35 (40:26):
I don't think anyone has a right to take the
life except you. When I'm under hallucination.

Speaker 2 (40:32):
I do these voices from God, these hallucinations. Do you
still experience them? Yes, I do often often. Do you
ever feel violent? Yes? I do. What do you feel
like doing killing people? Do you still feel like killing people?

Speaker 3 (40:48):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (40:48):
M Describe the feeling that you get when you feel
like killing people.

Speaker 35 (40:51):
Well, last March eleventh, I was hallucinating and I took
a razor blade and I cut a man's throat.

Speaker 2 (41:00):
Here in the hospital. Here in the hospital, do you
think r to media, Yes, that's gruesome, Jeff, that's horrible.
Yes it is. And you don't blame me if I say,
I hope you never get out of this place.

Speaker 35 (41:12):
I hope I never do.

Speaker 3 (41:13):
Either.

Speaker 2 (41:23):
Altered, Well, they weren't really spontaneous.

Speaker 19 (41:25):
I altered how I approached these young ladies from the
point of capture, from the first time. What I had
wanted to do was to secure them and to suffocate
them with plastic.

Speaker 2 (41:39):
Bags over their heads. I had some.

Speaker 19 (41:54):
Completely unrealistic perspective that that was quick, that they would
lose consciousness rapidly. But the first young lady that was
in the back seat was Mary Anne Petch. I finally
secured her. She argued a lot. She was dialogue and

(42:16):
trying to change up control of the situation. She had
already decided I was in control. I was trying to
gain control. I was convinced she was in control of it.
So for about twenty minutes we were arguing back and
forth over what was going to happen, and I was
trying to keep it away from what was intended, which
was murdering. And I decided at that time I wasn't

(42:37):
going to tell anyone I was going to rape them.

Speaker 2 (42:40):
I didn't say that at the time, but.

Speaker 19 (42:41):
I left that wide openness the avenue that I was
going to be a sexual release and that got them
very distressed. And it was obvious to me that if
I was going to pursue what I was doing, that
distress had to stop.

Speaker 2 (42:57):
So I went into a.

Speaker 19 (43:01):
Unfortunately more effective behavior of letting them help me, I
let more of my personality come out, and I was suicidal,
very disturbed, grasping out of someone. I had abducted them,
and I wasn't going to let them out of the
car because I was tired of people walking away from me.
So some of that was very true, but I manipulated

(43:24):
that to allow them to help me to the point
of resolving their behavior until we got to a place
where they could be killed. And that as I had
the biggest problem with that on a guilt basis, because
obviously that entailed unusual trust between the captor of the

(43:44):
perpetrator and the victim of the crime. At one point
in fact, on the fourth victim of the crime.

Speaker 2 (43:52):
Miss Shaw, she actually got back into the trunk under
her own.

Speaker 19 (43:59):
Power, cast on my left arm it was broken, and
I walked her back to the trunk of the car,
where I told her I was going to keep her
undercover so that I could give her to my home
or we could talk. But I didn't want neighbor seeing
her coming to the house or leaving the house, and
I made that sound realistic to her, so she didn't

(44:19):
want to get in the trunk, but was willing to.

Speaker 36 (44:34):
In ninth grade in biology class, we had the usual
dissection of fetal pigs, and I took the remains of
that home and kept the skeleton of it, and I

(45:02):
just started branching out dogs, cats. I suppose it could
have turned into a normal hobby like taxi or me.
You know, all I know is that I wanted to
see what the insides of these animals looked like. I

(45:26):
there may have been some violence involved, some underlying subconscious
feelings of violence. I just it was a it was
a compulsion, became a compulsion.

Speaker 20 (45:36):
What would you do with the with the dead animals, Jeff?

Speaker 36 (45:39):
Take them back in the woods. Uh, skin them sometimes, Uh,
slit them, slit them all the way open, look at
the organs, feel them.

Speaker 20 (45:50):
Can you describe what you were thinking?

Speaker 3 (45:51):
Is I was?

Speaker 36 (45:53):
It was just mystifying to me how how the insides
of the animal looked.

Speaker 10 (45:59):
Uh.

Speaker 36 (46:00):
Uh there was a sort of ex uh general excitement
for me. I don't know why.

Speaker 2 (46:06):
Uh it was.

Speaker 36 (46:06):
Uh it was exciting to see and I acted on
my fantasies. And uh that's where everything went wrong. Did
you ever tell yourself, I have to stop this, I
must stop doing this.

Speaker 20 (46:22):
Yes, when it was going on.

Speaker 36 (46:25):
After After the second time, it seemed like the compulsion
to do it was too strong, and I I didn't
even try.

Speaker 20 (46:32):
To stop it after that.

Speaker 36 (46:34):
But uh after before the second time, things had been
building up gradually, UH going to bookstores, going to uh
the bars, the gay bars, uh bath clubs. When that did,
when that wasn't enough, uh buying sleeping pills and and
using it on uh various guys in the bath clubs.

(46:55):
It just escalated slowly but surely. And uh I after
the second time, which was not planned, Uh, it was
out of control. It felt like it was out of control.
Were you relieved to be arrested? Part of me, part
of me was, and part of me wasn't.

Speaker 20 (47:19):
Explain uh, part I don't know.

Speaker 4 (47:24):
It's it's like.

Speaker 36 (47:26):
I don't believe I have a split personality, but you y,
you know the feeling where oh, you're you're sort of
glad about something, but on the other hand, you're not.

Speaker 20 (47:34):
That's that's how it was.

Speaker 2 (47:35):
I was.

Speaker 36 (47:36):
It was a relief not to have to uh keep
such a gigantic secret that I had kept for so
many years. And once I saw that I had no
choice but to face it, I uh decided to face
it head on and UH make a full confession. So
y uh, I I am glad that the secrets.

Speaker 13 (47:58):
Are are gone.

Speaker 36 (48:03):
I just get angry with other people who think that
they have a right to to somehow try to blame
my parents for what happened. That's not right at all.
No one has the right to do that because they're
totally innocent. They had no knowledge of it, and that

(48:23):
angers me.

Speaker 15 (48:44):
Ted.

Speaker 13 (48:44):
It is about two thirty in the afternoon.

Speaker 26 (48:48):
You are scheduled to be executed tomorrow morning at seven
o'clock if you.

Speaker 13 (48:51):
Don't receive another stay. What is going through your mind?
What thoughts have you had in these last few days.

Speaker 37 (49:02):
Well, I won't kid you to say that it's something
that I feel that I am in control of or
something that I've come to terms with, cause I haven't.
It's a moment by moment thing.

Speaker 2 (49:14):
Uh.

Speaker 37 (49:14):
Sometimes I feel very tranquil and other times, Uh, I
don't feel tranquil at all.

Speaker 3 (49:21):
Uh.

Speaker 37 (49:22):
What's going through my mind right now is to use
the minutes and hours that I have left as fruitfully
as possible and see what happens.

Speaker 2 (49:32):
Uh.

Speaker 37 (49:32):
It helps to to live in the moment, in the
in the essence that we use it productively. So I'm
right now, I'm feeling calm and I I I in
large part because I'm here with you.

Speaker 20 (49:44):
For the record, you.

Speaker 13 (49:46):
Are guilty of killing many women and girls.

Speaker 20 (49:52):
Yes, yes, that's true, Ted.

Speaker 13 (49:54):
How did it happen? Take me back?

Speaker 26 (49:58):
What are the antecedents of the behavior that we've seen
so much grief, so much sorrow, so much pain for.

Speaker 13 (50:07):
So many people.

Speaker 37 (50:08):
Where did it start? How did this moment come about?
That's the question of the hour, and and when one
that not only people much more intelligent than I have
been working on for UH for years, but one that
I've been working on for years and trying to understand it.

Speaker 20 (50:31):
Yeah? Is there enough time to explain it all?

Speaker 3 (50:34):
Uh?

Speaker 20 (50:34):
I don't know.

Speaker 37 (50:35):
I think I understand it though, I understand what happened
to me to the extent that I I I I
can see how certain feelings and ideas UH developed in
me to the point where I began to act out
on them, certain very violent and very destructive feeling.

Speaker 26 (50:52):
Right, let let's go back then to those routs. First
of all, you, as I understand it, were raised in
what you considered to have been home. Absolutely, you were
not physically abused. You were not sexually abused, You were
not emotionally abused.

Speaker 37 (51:06):
No, no way, I And that's part of the tragedy
of this whole situation is because uh I grew up
in a wonderful home with two dedicated and loving parents
and one of uh five brothers and sisters. The home
where we as our as children, were the focus of

(51:26):
of my parents' lives, where we regularly attended church. U
two Christian parents who did not drink, they did not smoke,
There was no gambling, there was no physical abuse of
fighting in the home.

Speaker 20 (51:37):
I'm not saying this was leave it to beaver.

Speaker 37 (51:41):
It wasn't a perfect well no, I don't know that
such a home exists, but it was a fine, solid
Christian home.

Speaker 20 (51:47):
And nobody uh sh uh.

Speaker 37 (51:50):
I hope no one will try to take the easy
way out and to try to blame or otherwise accuse
my fuh my family of contributing to this because uh
I know. Oh, and I'm trying to tell you as
honestly as I know how what happened. And I think
this is a message I'm wanna get across. But as
a young uh a young boy, and I mean the
boy of uh twelve or thirteen, certainly that I encountered

(52:15):
outside the home again uh.

Speaker 20 (52:18):
In uh I the local.

Speaker 37 (52:21):
Grocery store, the local uh uh drug store, the softcore pornography,
what people call softcore. But as I think I I
explained to you last night, doctor Dobson and an anecdote,
the as young boys do, we explored the the back
roads and sideways and byways of our neighborhood, and oftentimes

(52:42):
people would dump.

Speaker 20 (52:45):
The garbage and whatever they were cleaning out of their house.

Speaker 37 (52:47):
And from time to time we'd come across uh pornographic
books of a harder nature than a more of uh
graphic you might say, more explicit nature than we would encounter,
let's say, in your local grocery store. And this also
included such things as, let's say, detective magazines and uh
more violence. Yes, yes, and I I I And this

(53:08):
is something I think I want to emphasize as the
the the the most damaging uh uh kinds of pornography.
And my again, I'm talking from personal experience, uh hard
real personal experience. The most damaging kinds of pornography are
those that involve violence uh and sexual violence. Because the

(53:28):
wedding of those two forces, as as I know only
too well, brings about behavior that it's just uh mm
is just uh too terrible to describe.

Speaker 13 (53:39):
Now, walk me through that. What was going on in
your mind at that time?

Speaker 37 (53:42):
Okay, before we go any further, I think it's important
to me and t A A. The people, the people
believe what I'm saying to tell you that that I'm
not blaming pornography and not saying that it caused me
and to go out and do certain things. And I
take full responsibility for whatever I've done and all the
things that I've done.

Speaker 20 (54:03):
That's not the question here.

Speaker 37 (54:05):
The question and and and the issue is how this
kind of literature contributed and helped mold and and shape
the kinds of violent behavior.

Speaker 13 (54:15):
It fueled your fantasies.

Speaker 37 (54:17):
Well in in the beginning, it fuels this kind of
thought process. Then it at a certain time it's instrumental
in what type would say, crystallizing and make it in
making into something which is almost an like a separate
entity inside. And that in at that point you're at
the verge or I was at the verge of acting
out on this on this kind of these kinds.

Speaker 26 (54:40):
Of things I want really wanna understand that you had
gone about as far as you could go in your
own fantasy life with printed material, and you made or
printed in video.

Speaker 20 (54:52):
Or film or film magazine. Is what happened.

Speaker 26 (54:55):
And and then there was the urge to take that
little step or a big step yu over to a
physical right.

Speaker 20 (55:02):
E and it happens.

Speaker 37 (55:04):
It It happened in stages gradually. It doesn't necessarily not
to me at least happen overnight. My experience with I
say pornography generally, but with the pornography that deals on
a violent level with the sexuality, is.

Speaker 20 (55:21):
That once you become addicted to it, and I look
at this as a kind.

Speaker 37 (55:25):
Of addiction, uh, like other kinds of addiction, of addiction,
you keep I would keep looking for more pope, more explicit,
and more graphic signs of material. Like an addiction, You
keep craving something which is harder, harder, something which which
gives you a greater uh sense of uh a of
uh excitement, until you reach the point where the pornography

(55:49):
only goes so far.

Speaker 20 (55:51):
You reach.

Speaker 37 (55:53):
That jumping off point where you begin to wonder if
if maybe actually doing it will give you.

Speaker 20 (56:00):
That which is beyond just reading about it or looking
at it.

Speaker 26 (56:04):
How long did you stay at that point before you
actually assaulted somewhere?

Speaker 18 (56:08):
Well?

Speaker 20 (56:08):
Yeah, you see, I that is a very delicate point.

Speaker 37 (56:13):
I mean I I I I in my own development
and we're talking about something, we're talking about having reached
the point or uh A a gray area that surrounded
that point.

Speaker 20 (56:22):
Over a course of it, you know, years, how long?

Speaker 37 (56:24):
Well I W I would say, I would say a
couple of years. And what was I was dealing with?
There were very strong inhibitions against criminal behavior, of violent
behavior that had been conditioned into me, bred into me
in my environment, in my neighborhood, in my church, uh,
in my school, things which said no, this is wrong,

(56:47):
I mean just I mean even to think of it
as wrong.

Speaker 20 (56:49):
But al certainly to do what is wrong. And you're
on wh I'm on that edge.

Speaker 37 (56:52):
In these the last they they they might say, the
last vestiges of restraint, uh, the bary to actually doing something.
We're being tested constantly and assault uh, assailed through the
kind of fantasy life that was fueled largely of bi pornography.

(57:16):
Do you remember what pushed you over that edge? Do
you remember the decision to go for it? Do you
remember where you decided to throw caution.

Speaker 13 (57:27):
To the wind.

Speaker 37 (57:32):
Again when you say pushed, I don't I I know
what you're saying. I don't wanna defer again that I
was ha W, that I was some helpless kind of
a victim. And yet uh uh we're talking about an influence,
which that is the influence of violent types of media
and in violent pornography, which had an't w was a

(57:54):
indispensable link in the chain of behavior, of the chain
of events that led to the behaviors, to the to
the dessaults, to the murderers and what h.

Speaker 2 (58:03):
And what have you.

Speaker 37 (58:07):
It's a it's a very difficult thing to describe, uh,
I mean, uh, the the sensation of the the I
uh of of reaching that point where you knew where
I knew that it It was like something had say

(58:30):
snapped that I knew that, uh, that I couldn't control anymore,
that these barriers that that I had had been I
had learned as a child, uh, that had been instilled.

Speaker 20 (58:41):
In me were not enough to hold me back with
respect to seeking out and and harming somebody.

Speaker 26 (58:47):
Would it be accurate to call out a uh, a frenzy,
a sexual frenzy.

Speaker 37 (58:52):
Well, yes, I that's one way to describe it. A
compulsion I A a building up both of this destructive energy.

Speaker 20 (59:04):
Uh again uh.

Speaker 10 (59:07):
I UH.

Speaker 37 (59:07):
Another factor here, the way I haven't mentioned is the
use of alcohol. But I think that the what alcohol did,
UH in conjunction with let's say, my exposure to pornography,
with alcohol reduced my inhibitions. At the same time, the
the the fantasy life that were fueled by pornography UH

(59:30):
eroded them.

Speaker 3 (59:31):
Further.

Speaker 26 (59:32):
See, in the early days, you were nearly always about
half drunk when you did these things.

Speaker 3 (59:37):
Is that right?

Speaker 17 (59:37):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (59:38):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (59:40):
UH?

Speaker 13 (59:40):
Was that always true?

Speaker 37 (59:44):
I I would say that that was generally the case,
almost w W without saying.

Speaker 26 (59:49):
Alright, I if I can understand it. Now, there's this
battle going on within. There are the conventions that you've
been taught. There's the right and wrong that you learned
as a child, and then there is this this t
s U unbridled passion UH fueled by your plunge into
hardcore violent pornography.

Speaker 13 (01:00:08):
And those things are at war with each other.

Speaker 26 (01:00:10):
Yes, and then with the UH alcohol diminishing the UH,
the inhibitions.

Speaker 20 (01:00:16):
UH, you let go, well I Y yes, And.

Speaker 37 (01:00:22):
To you can summarize it that way, and that's accurate, certainly,
and it it just occurred to me that some people
would would say that, well, I.

Speaker 20 (01:00:33):
I've seen that stuff and it doesn't do anything to me.

Speaker 37 (01:00:36):
And I can understand that I ll n virtually everyone
uh can be exposed to so called pornography and while
they're aroused to it to one degree or another and
not go out and do anything wrong.

Speaker 26 (01:00:47):
Uh, addictions are like that they affect some people more
than they affect others. Well, that there is a percentage
of people affected by hardcore pornography in a very violent way,
and you're obviously one of 'em.

Speaker 37 (01:00:57):
That was a major component. And I don't know well
why I was vulnera uh vulnerable to it. All I
know is that uh that it uh that it had
an an impact on me.

Speaker 20 (01:01:08):
Uh that was just so uh.

Speaker 37 (01:01:13):
Central to the development of the violent behavior that I
engaged in.

Speaker 26 (01:01:17):
Ted, after you committed your first murder, what was the
emotional effect on you?

Speaker 13 (01:01:23):
What happened in the days after that?

Speaker 20 (01:01:33):
Well, again this please understand that that even all these
years later, it's.

Speaker 37 (01:01:40):
Very difficult to talk about it, and it in in
reliving it through talking about it that It is uh
difficult to say the least, but I want you to understand,
uh what happened.

Speaker 20 (01:01:52):
It was like coming out of some kind of horrible
trance or or dream.

Speaker 37 (01:02:00):
I can only liken it too after, you know, I
I don't want to over dramatize it, but to have
been possessed by something so awful and so alien, and
then the next morning wake up from it, remember what happened,
and realize that, basically, I mean the in the eyes
of the law, certainly in the eyes of God, you're responsible.

Speaker 20 (01:02:22):
And to have to wake up in the morning and
and realize what.

Speaker 37 (01:02:27):
I had done, and with a clear mind and all
my essential moral and ethical feelings intact at that moment, uh.
Uh absolutely horrified that I was capable of doing something
like that.

Speaker 13 (01:02:47):
You really hadn't known that before.

Speaker 2 (01:02:50):
Uh.

Speaker 37 (01:02:51):
There is just absolutely no way to describe first the
brutal urge to do that kind of thing, and then
what happens is once it it has been more or
less satisfied and received you might say, or spent that

(01:03:15):
that sense that a kind of energy level receives, and
basically I became my myself again. I and I want
people to understand this too, And I'm not saying this
gratuitously because it's important that people understand this that basically
I was.

Speaker 20 (01:03:30):
A normal person.

Speaker 15 (01:03:32):
Uh uh I.

Speaker 37 (01:03:34):
I wasn't uh some guy hanging out uh at bars
or a bum or I wasn't a pervert in the
sense that you know, people look at somebody and say,
I know there's something wrong with him and just tell
I mean I I I w was essentially a normal person.
I had good friends, I I uh, I live a
normal life except for this one small but very potent

(01:03:57):
and very destructive segment of it that I kept very see,
very close to myself and didn't l let.

Speaker 20 (01:04:02):
Anybody know about it.

Speaker 37 (01:04:04):
And part of the shock and horror for my dear
friends and family wa years ago when I was first arrested.

Speaker 20 (01:04:09):
Was that they just there was no clue.

Speaker 37 (01:04:12):
They looked at me, and they looked at the you know,
the the all American boy, and I'm uh, I mean
that wasn't perfect, but it was just I I'm wanna
be potic with you.

Speaker 11 (01:04:20):
I was.

Speaker 20 (01:04:21):
I was okay, okay, I I was a The basic.

Speaker 37 (01:04:28):
Humanity and and the basic spirit that God gave me
was intact, but unfortunately it became overwhelmed at times. I
think people need to recognize that it's not some kind
of the the The those of us who are who
have been so much influenced by violence in the media,

(01:04:49):
in particular pornographic.

Speaker 20 (01:04:51):
Violence, are not some kinds of inherent monsters. We are
your sons, and we are your husbands, and.

Speaker 37 (01:05:00):
We grew up in regular families, and pornography can reach
out and snatch a kid out of any house.

Speaker 20 (01:05:05):
Today. He snatched me out of my home. It snatched
me out of the my home twenty thirty years ago.

Speaker 3 (01:05:13):
A A.

Speaker 37 (01:05:14):
And as diligent as my parents were, Uh, And they
were diligent in protecting their children, and as good a
Christian home as we had, and we had a wonderful
Christian home.

Speaker 1 (01:05:29):
Uh.

Speaker 37 (01:05:29):
There is no protection against the kinds that the kinds
of influences that are loose in the society that that
that tolerates.

Speaker 4 (01:05:38):
MM.

Speaker 13 (01:05:41):
You you feel this really deeply, don't you?

Speaker 26 (01:05:46):
Ten Outside these walls right now, there are several hundred
reporters that wanted to talk to you. Yeah, and you
asked me to come here from California because you had
something you wanted to.

Speaker 13 (01:05:59):
Say this hour that we have together.

Speaker 26 (01:06:04):
Uh, is not just an interview with a man who's
scheduled to die tomorrow morning. I am here, and you're
here because of this message that you're talking about right here,
you really feel that hard coreporography and the doorway to it,
soft corporography is doing untold damage to other people, in

(01:06:27):
causing other women to be abused and killed.

Speaker 13 (01:06:32):
The way you did.

Speaker 20 (01:06:33):
Listen.

Speaker 37 (01:06:34):
Ah, I'm no social scientists, and I haven't done a survey.
I mean, I I don't pretend that I know what
John Q Citizen thinks about this. But I've lived in
prison for a long time now.

Speaker 38 (01:06:47):
And I've met a lot of men who were motivated
to commit violence just like me, And without exception, every
one of them was deeply involved in pornography, ut.

Speaker 37 (01:07:00):
Question, without exception, deeply influenced and consumed by an addiction
to pornography.

Speaker 20 (01:07:06):
There's no question about it.

Speaker 37 (01:07:07):
The FBI's own study on serial homicide shows that the
most common interest among serial killers is pornography.

Speaker 13 (01:07:18):
Yeah, that's true, and.

Speaker 20 (01:07:19):
It's and it's real.

Speaker 13 (01:07:21):
It's true, Ted, What would your life have been like
without that influence? You can only speculate.

Speaker 37 (01:07:34):
Yeah, well, I I know it would've been far better,
not just for me and and it's uh, excuse me
for being so self centered here, it would have been
a lot better for me and lots of other people.
I know that lots of other innocent people, victims and families.
It woulda been a lot better. There's no question but

(01:07:54):
that it woulda been ah a a A a fuller life. Uh,
it's certainly the au a life that would not have
involved I'm absolutely certain would not have evolve involved this
kind of violence that I have.

Speaker 20 (01:08:08):
Been, that I have committed.

Speaker 26 (01:08:11):
I'm sure Teddy if uh you know, if I were
able to ask you the questions that are being asked
out there, mm uh, one of the most important as
you come down to perhaps your final hours, are you
thinking about all those victims out there and their families well,
who are so wounded. You know years later their lives

(01:08:33):
have not returned to normal, They will never have returned
to normal. Absolutely, are you carrying that load?

Speaker 13 (01:08:38):
That weight is the remorse they're.

Speaker 20 (01:08:45):
Again.

Speaker 37 (01:08:46):
I I know that people will accuse me of being
self serving, but we're beyond that now. I mean, I'm
just telling you how I feel. But through God's help,
I have been able to come to the point where
I've much too late, but n better late than never
feel the hurt and the pain that I am responsible for. Yes, absolutely,

(01:09:08):
In the past few days myself and a number of
investigators have been talking about unsolved cases.

Speaker 20 (01:09:15):
A murders that I was involved in.

Speaker 37 (01:09:19):
And it's hard to it's hard to talk about all
these years later because it revives in me all those
terrible feelings and those thoughts that I have steadfastly and
a and and uh diligently dealt with and I think
successfully with the love of God. And yet it's reopened

(01:09:40):
that and I've felt the pain, and I've felt the
horror again of all that.

Speaker 20 (01:09:45):
And I can only hope.

Speaker 37 (01:09:47):
That those who I have harmed, those who I've caused
so much grief, even if they don't believe my a
expression of sorrow and remorse, will believe what I'm saying now.

Speaker 20 (01:10:08):
That there is loose.

Speaker 37 (01:10:10):
In their towns and their communities, people like me today
who's dangerous impulses are being fueled day in and day
out by violence in the media in its various forums,
particularly s sexualized violence, and what scares me A And

(01:10:34):
let's come into the present now, because what I'm talking
about happened thirty twenty thirty years ago. That is in
my formative stages. And what scares and apalls me, Doctor Dobson,
is when I see what's on cable TV. Some of
the movies, I mean, some of the violence in the
movies are that come into homes today with stuff that

(01:10:56):
they that they wouldn't show in an X rated adult
theaters through years ago.

Speaker 13 (01:11:00):
This stuff, the slasher movies that you're talking about.

Speaker 37 (01:11:04):
That stuff is I'm telling you from personal experience, the
most that is graphic violence m on screen, particularly as
it gets into the home. The children who may be
unattended or or unaware that they may be a Ted
Bundy who has that that vulnerability to that that predisposition

(01:11:25):
to be influenced by that kind of behavior, by that
kind of of of a movie, that kind of violence.
Their kids sitting out there switching the TV dial around
and come upon these movies late at night or I
don't know when they're on, but they're on and any
kid can watch 'em. It's scary when I think what
would've happened to me if I had seen I'm scary enough,

(01:11:47):
m I mean that I just ran into stuff outside
the home but it's be to to know that children
are watching that kind of thing today or can pick
up their phone and dial away for it or send
away for it.

Speaker 3 (01:11:59):
Uh.

Speaker 26 (01:12:01):
Uh can you help me understand this desensitization process that
took place?

Speaker 3 (01:12:06):
Uh?

Speaker 13 (01:12:06):
What was going on in your mind?

Speaker 10 (01:12:08):
Well?

Speaker 20 (01:12:09):
By desensitization, I U I describe it in specific terms,
is that the.

Speaker 37 (01:12:17):
Each time I'd harm someone, each time I'd kill someone,
to be an enormous amount of uh uh, especially at first,
uh enormous amount of of of horror, guilt, remorse afterwards,
but then that impulse to do it again would come
back even stronger. Now believe me, I didn't I I.

(01:12:38):
The unique thing about how this worked, doctor Dobson, is
that I still felt in my regular life the full
range of of guilt and and uh remorse about other things,
uh regret and uh.

Speaker 13 (01:12:50):
You had this compartmentalize this very.

Speaker 37 (01:12:53):
Well focused uh uh, a very sharply focused area where
I'd it was like a black It was like a
you know, like a crack, and everything that fell into
that crack just disappeared.

Speaker 20 (01:13:06):
Does that make sense?

Speaker 35 (01:13:06):
Yeah?

Speaker 15 (01:13:07):
It does?

Speaker 10 (01:13:07):
Uh.

Speaker 26 (01:13:07):
I one of the the final uh murders that you
committed of course, uh was apparently a little Kimberly Leech
twelve years of age.

Speaker 14 (01:13:17):
Uh.

Speaker 26 (01:13:18):
I think the the public outcry is greater there because
an innocent job was taken from a from a playground.
What did you feel after that?

Speaker 13 (01:13:28):
Wha was there?

Speaker 26 (01:13:30):
Were there the normal emotions three days later? Where were
you did? I?

Speaker 37 (01:13:40):
I can't really talk about that right now? That's oh, yeah,
that's too painful. Yeah, I would like to, Uh, I
like to be able to convey to you what that.

Speaker 20 (01:13:57):
That uh that experience like that. I can't that, I
won't okay, able to talk about that. I'm king I
can't begin to understand. Well, I can try, but I'm I'm.

Speaker 37 (01:14:17):
Aware that I can't begin to understand the pain that
the parents of these of these children that I have
and these young women that I have harmed, feel, And
I can't d restore it really much to them, if anything,

(01:14:38):
And I won't pretend to and I don't even expect
them to forgive me, and I'm not asking for it
to the kind of forgiveness is of God. And if
they have it, they have it, they don't, well, maybe
they'll find.

Speaker 4 (01:14:48):
It some day.

Speaker 13 (01:14:49):
Do you deserve the punishment the state is inflicted upon you.

Speaker 20 (01:14:56):
Ah, that's a very good question, and I'll answer very,
very honestly.

Speaker 24 (01:15:00):
Uh.

Speaker 20 (01:15:00):
I don't wanna die. I'm not gonna kitch you. I'll
ki kid or not.

Speaker 37 (01:15:06):
I deserve, certainly the the most extreme punishment society has,
and I deserve. I think society deserves to be protected
from me and from others like me, That's for sure.
I think what I h O, what I hope will
come of our discussion is I think society deserves to be.

Speaker 20 (01:15:27):
Protected from itself.

Speaker 37 (01:15:30):
Because because if we've as as we've been talking, there
are there are forces that loose in in in this country,
particularly again, uh, this kind of violent U m uh
pornography where on the one hand, well meaning decent people
will condemn behavior of its head Bundy while they're walking

(01:15:53):
past a a a a magazine rack full of the
very kinds of things that send young kids.

Speaker 20 (01:15:59):
Down the road to beat head bundies.

Speaker 37 (01:16:00):
That's the irony we're talking here, not just about more
we're talking I'm what I'm talking about is going beyond retribution,
which is what people want with me, Going beyond retribution
and punishment, because there is no way in the world
that killing me is going to restore uh, those beautiful

(01:16:22):
children to their parents and and and correct an and
and and soothe the pain. But I'll tell you there
are lots of other kids playing in streets around this
country today who are going to be dead tomorrow and
the next day and the next day and next month
because other young people are reading the kinds of things
and seeing the kinds of things that are available in

(01:16:44):
the media today.

Speaker 13 (01:16:45):
Ted, as you.

Speaker 26 (01:16:46):
Would imagine, there's tremendous cynicism about you on the outside.

Speaker 13 (01:16:49):
And I suppose for good reason. H.

Speaker 26 (01:16:52):
I'm not sure that there's anything that you could say
that people would uh would believe.

Speaker 13 (01:16:57):
Some people would believe, yeah, An and uh and y y.

Speaker 26 (01:17:01):
You told me last night, and I have heard this
through our mutual friend John Tanner, that you have uh
accepted the forgiveness of Jesus Christ and UH are a
follower and a believer in him. Do you draw strength
from that, Yuh as you approach these final hours?

Speaker 20 (01:17:20):
I do.

Speaker 37 (01:17:22):
I can't say that, Uh, it's gonna being in the
the the valley of the shadow of death. It's it's
something that I've become all that accustomed to. And then
I'm you know, and then I'm strong and uh uh,
nothing's bothering me.

Speaker 20 (01:17:35):
Listen, it's no fun. It's it's you know, it's it's
uh it's gets kind of lonely. And yet.

Speaker 37 (01:17:45):
I have to remind myself that every one of us,
uh I will go through some day uh in one
way or another, and countless uh millions who have walked this.

Speaker 20 (01:17:55):
Earth before us have So this is just an experience
which we all share.

Speaker 38 (01:17:58):
And yeah, right, and.

Speaker 33 (01:18:16):
I'm telling you because the cops let me keep killing them.

Speaker 5 (01:18:19):
Nick, Not everybody is killing seven people.

Speaker 16 (01:18:23):
So there must have been something in you that was
getting used.

Speaker 33 (01:18:26):
You are lost, Nick, You are lost.

Speaker 35 (01:18:29):
Nick, You are lost.

Speaker 10 (01:18:31):
Nick.

Speaker 33 (01:18:33):
I was a hitchhiking hooker.

Speaker 23 (01:18:34):
You're inhuman.

Speaker 33 (01:18:35):
You're an inhumane bunch of fucking living bastards and bitches,
and you're gonna get your asses nuked in the end,
and pretty soon it's coming twenty nineteen a rock supposed
to hitch anyhow, you're all gonna get nuked. You don't
take fucking human life like this and just sabotage and
rip it apart like Jesus on the cross to say,
thanks a lot for all the fucking money I made
off of you. And not care about a human being

(01:18:57):
and the truth being told. Now I know what Jesus
was going through. They've been trying to tell the truth
and I keep getting it stepped on, concerned about if
I was raped, if I I'm not giving you book
and movie info, I'm giving you infro.

Speaker 15 (01:19:12):
For investigations and stuff.

Speaker 8 (01:19:13):
And that's it.

Speaker 33 (01:19:19):
We're gonna have to cut this interview. Nick, I'm not
going to go into any more detail.