January 1, 2025 • 88 mins
The Case Of The Cannibal Cop - True Crime Documentary Film
crime documentary #truecrime
Gilberto Valle, a former NYPD officer accused of planning to abduct and eat women, is the subject of the movie. With a life sentence on the line, Valle claimed that it was a fantasy and that he had no genuine ambitions, which resulted in an astonishing turn of events.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/true-crime-podcast-2025--6463449/support.
crime documentary #truecrime
Gilberto Valle, a former NYPD officer accused of planning to abduct and eat women, is the subject of the movie. With a life sentence on the line, Valle claimed that it was a fantasy and that he had no genuine ambitions, which resulted in an astonishing turn of events.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/true-crime-podcast-2025--6463449/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Oh stop, oh stop.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
When you're behind a computer screen late at night, no
one knows who you are, where you are. I became
part of this cyber community where people are exploring devian
thoughts and exploring their fetishes. If I'm not the only
(01:24):
one out there with these thoughts, they were accepted. The
anonymity makes you try not do the other person, who
could be the sicker one, who could be the more
to prave one. The baby was sleeping, the mom was sleeping.
(01:52):
There was just nothing to do. And then you shut
the computer off and that's it.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
They go back to being the regular me.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
But someone might say the anonymous nature could also bring
out who you really are. And my worst nightmare I
could ever guessed that this would have happened.
Speaker 4 (02:48):
Breaking news and almost unbelievable story. A New York City
police officer has been arrested in a failed plot to
kidnap dozens of women, cooked them, and then eat them.
Speaker 5 (03:00):
Gilberto Vale has become known as the Cannibal Coup. The
twenty eight year old's wife uncovered the alleged plot.
Speaker 6 (03:07):
Charge in a conspiracy to commit kidnapping and allegedly used
NYPD computers to get information on a list of victims.
Speaker 7 (03:18):
Defense lawyers did not deny his online activity, but called
it a sexual fantasy that he would never act on.
Speaker 8 (03:26):
These are thoughts, very ugly thoughts, but we don't prosecute people.
Speaker 9 (03:30):
For their thoughts.
Speaker 10 (03:32):
It comes down to this, is this guy just fantasizing
or is there enough evidence to suggest he was really
planning to do this.
Speaker 11 (03:50):
There's nothing we like better than at least in fection
a killer. You know, the worst, meanest, baddest, roughest to
a serial killer in the world. Let's get inside their
heart and mind and figure out exactly what they're about.
And there are story archetypes that we all sort of
adhere to. Gil as the cannibal cop was typed as well,
(04:18):
whether it was the monster of the week or as
this week's hannibal lecter, as a master criminal, or as
a vicious beast who needed to be controlled. Not only
was this someone who seemed to have been planning to
abduct and eat his wife and other women, but the
idea of him wandering around with a badge was something
(04:40):
so devious that it was unbelievable. But then when it
actually made it to trial, there were two sides to
this story, and when the defense stood up and said,
this is a thought police case, and then suddenly it.
Speaker 12 (04:57):
Got even more theatrical and more interesting.
Speaker 11 (05:03):
It was the best that true crime has to offer
because it was about a crazy side of human behavior
that we don't get.
Speaker 12 (05:10):
To see, and that's what was happening in real life.
Speaker 13 (05:13):
Here, audience, good human.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
Check one check too, check one, check too.
Speaker 13 (05:37):
There you go.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
There were a lot of myths about what was going
on here.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
You got a picture painted in your head, you got
a story, and you just start once you had that
initial concept, Once that you had that preconceived notion, you
start to seek out pieces of information and that that
go with that, that jive with it, and you disregard
things that go against that. You know, I want everyone
(06:09):
to have all the facts in front of them before
they make up the minds for themselves.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
I grew up in Queens, New York.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
My parents separated at an early age. Mom was more
soft love, you know, she was there for emotional support,
that would be the one to pick you in the butt.
He was very you know, strict, and we didn't want
to disappoint my dad.
Speaker 7 (06:44):
Vaya's arrest comes after the FBI obtained detailed accounts of
the barbaric plants. The government says Vaya made his sick
plans in online chat rooms. His father in disbelief, of course.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
I'm shocked.
Speaker 14 (06:57):
Is it possible?
Speaker 3 (06:59):
I don't think so.
Speaker 15 (07:01):
As a parent, now that all is has happened, a
lot of different things going to their mind.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Is he crazy? You know, all this stuff coming to together?
Speaker 16 (07:13):
What is he?
Speaker 13 (07:13):
Is he crazy?
Speaker 16 (07:20):
How did you feel when you heard the first allegations
about cannibalism and kidnapping.
Speaker 17 (07:25):
I couldn't believe it. I said, that's not my son.
I'm like, there's got to be a mistake. That's not
my son. Kiss The first time that I actually heard
these internet chats, that's when I noticed. I'm like, okay,
(07:49):
my son did have a problem. For the good boy
that I know, to be discussing women in such a way,
it was just horrible. But if anything, he needed help,
(08:15):
See a psychiatrist, see a therapist. I mean, I'm not
saying whether it's right or wrong, but you know, some
people choose to let out their frustrations by going to
the gym, punching a punching bag.
Speaker 18 (08:29):
That might work for them.
Speaker 17 (08:31):
For some it might be getting on a site like
this and fantasizing.
Speaker 18 (08:39):
You know, thoughts of horrible thoughts like that.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
He created a master.
Speaker 19 (08:52):
He's a good writer.
Speaker 15 (08:55):
I mean, how could anybody believe that one person they're
going to kidnap one hundred women and cook and eat
one hundred women. Which one was in the trunk of
his car, Which one was in the spit over the fire,
(09:17):
which one was in the oven.
Speaker 20 (09:22):
The fact that he's sitting there in his apartment while
his wife and baby are asleep in the next room
and he's talking about, you know, slitting her throat, and
the fact that he's going around in his police uniform
all contribute to a sense of dread around it. But
(09:48):
was he involved in the planning of a real crime?
And at what point is it appropriate to step in?
There was no real world attempt. But when they went
through his computer they found twenty four sets of conversations,
and twenty one of them people said, Hey, is this
(10:10):
for real? And gill Valley said, no, this is a fantasy.
No matter what I say, it's all make believe. But
in three he never said that. In fact, there were
some moments in those chats where one of the participants
would say, hey, are you for real, and gil Valley
(10:31):
would say yes he was. That could seem like evidence
that this was a real conspiracy.
Speaker 21 (10:47):
We do not have thought crime in this country. We
do not prosecute people for what they think. It is
permissible to have all of the thoughts from a criminal
law enforcement point of view that Gilberto v a hat.
What's impermissible is planning with another person to execute on
those thoughts. Two charges had been brought against him, conspiracy
(11:12):
to kidnap, as well as an unauthorized use of a
law enforcement database in order to gain some information about
one of the victims.
Speaker 22 (11:21):
Conspiracy is the prosecutor's fave or instrument. In order to
be convicted of an attempt, you have to not only
intend to do it, but you have to go beyond
preparation and cross a line that suggests that you're gonna
do it unless something stops you. Conspiracy allows you to
(11:43):
move that line back. If two people just talk about
doing something terrible and agree to do it and then
take one overt act, they can be prosecuted put in
jail for the rest of their lives.
Speaker 9 (12:01):
The overt act doesn't have to be a crime itself.
Speaker 23 (12:03):
You know, it's not like you say, let's go rob
a bank, and the overt act then is you steal
a car to be the getaway car. It could be
something that is entirely lawful. Otherwise it just might have
special meaning.
Speaker 21 (12:16):
Here. The defendant talked about disabling his victims using chloroform.
He then searched how to make chloroform. The defendants talked
about stalking their victims, and in fact, there was a
search of a proprietary law enforcement only database as to where.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
One of the victims lived.
Speaker 12 (12:38):
This is not a simple.
Speaker 22 (12:41):
Case of where you're going after somebody just w thought
some equal thoughts. He took lots of steps in the
direction of possibly doing terrible things.
Speaker 20 (12:54):
He traveled to Maryland to visit one of the alleged
intended dictims. This target of his supposed plot was his
college friend. If you think this is a dangerous, dangerous man,
then everything that he did in real life takes on
(13:16):
this really ominous color to it. This trip to Maryland
with his wife and baby could seem like a recon
mission for a murderous kidnapping plot.
Speaker 22 (13:30):
If he in fact was planning to kill somebody specifically,
then all of these would be overacts within any meaning
of the law. The question is what was in his mind,
and I'm not sure he knew.
Speaker 5 (13:49):
Opening statements today in the trial of the Cannibal Cup.
Speaker 21 (13:53):
In the words of both the prosecution and defense attorneys,
this is going to be a bizarre trial.
Speaker 24 (14:07):
I don't get to draw nudes very often. I usually
see people sitting in a chair looking straight ahead at
a judge. But I got to do people on spits,
women being cooked and roasted, and visuals of dark fetish
net If you pull.
Speaker 18 (14:27):
In you could see little naked bodies.
Speaker 9 (14:31):
It's pretty amazing.
Speaker 18 (14:33):
I've never really seen anything like that in a trial.
Speaker 10 (14:37):
There were reporters there from all over the country. We'd
heard a lot about this case, but now all of
it was being laid out in front of us for
the first time. There were three alleged co conspirators. Michael
van Hyes, somebody in Pakistan known as Ali Khan in
(15:00):
England known as Moody Blues. He had these plans written
out for how to kidnap women. He was planning on
building a pulley apparatus in his basement to string women
(15:24):
up and torture them and slow rose them. Says he
had a giant oven that he planned on stuffing these
women into It all sounded crazy but potentially true.
Speaker 19 (15:43):
We had a tome of the chats copied for us,
and we were in the position to determine how much
of it was real and how much of it was fantasy.
I think we all agreed, this man has a problem,
This is sick, is really quite sick. But we weren't
(16:03):
there to convict on his sick mind. We were there
to convict on a conspiracy to kidnap and kill and
maim and rape. What made it very real was that
he took pictures from real people in his life and
(16:24):
shared them on these sites, and that, for me, takes
a past fantasy. He had what was called a blueprint
and had made a list of what he needed. He
had the ability to retrieve all these materials. That made
(16:51):
it very real to us that any one of these
women could have been a true victim of his.
Speaker 10 (17:04):
Alicia Frisca early on became a major figure in the case.
Investigator said Gil had been stalking her.
Speaker 11 (17:37):
When Gill starts talking money with Michael Van Hyes, that
shifting tone is chilling. He's suddenly very grizzly and mechanical,
and let's talk Turkey. Here's how we're going to get
it done, and that feels like things are starting to
(17:59):
get more real.
Speaker 25 (18:10):
These fantasies were really really scary, and the level of
detail that Gil talked about and that other people talked
about on the Internet was also really really scary. The reality,
of course, coming back to the reality, is that none
(18:31):
of the things that they said ever came to pass.
They often missed dates. They said, I'll call you on
Tuesday and we'll do something then, and then nothing happens
on Tuesday. Nothing happens with three tuesdays, and then nothing
ever happens at all.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
These are fantasies.
Speaker 10 (18:54):
There was no giant oven that could fit somebody inside
of it. There was no polyapria, this being set up
in the basement. In fact, the basement was a laundry
room for everyone in his Queen's apartment building to use,
and wouldn't be a very good torture chamber.
Speaker 23 (19:12):
Let's put it this way, if this was done on Craigslist,
you would know you were being scammed. He didn't have
any of the things you would need according to his
own blueprints and plans on how to do this.
Speaker 9 (19:24):
He made up false information. It wouldn't be effected.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
You read about the case, you read about these chats,
and you're horrifyed, you're turned off, you want to step away,
and you're just like, this guy's a monster.
Speaker 14 (19:40):
Be for you.
Speaker 3 (19:42):
Whatever.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Yeah, this is the pray language and unconventional thoughts, but
there's no evidence.
Speaker 19 (19:56):
Shock in the courtroom guilty of conspiracy to commit kidnapping,
also guilty of wrongfully accessing a federal database.
Speaker 17 (20:08):
I almost frozen time, and all I kept hearing was guilty, guilty, guilty.
For me to see him in shackles, it's heartbreaking.
Speaker 26 (20:25):
But you know, through all.
Speaker 17 (20:26):
This, I haven't cried until now, and I feel like
I want to scream.
Speaker 18 (20:34):
I never let it out.
Speaker 17 (20:38):
He's not a cannibal.
Speaker 18 (20:40):
He never ate anyone.
Speaker 17 (20:44):
Isn't that The true definition of a cannibal is someone
that eats human meat.
Speaker 3 (20:56):
How are you doing? Out all due respect, how are
you doing?
Speaker 13 (21:02):
I'm strong.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
I went back to the prison and that's when I
broke down. I didn't want to do it in front
of my family, but I broke down. I hear a
couple officers talking outside. One of them comes in and says,
value are convicted, and another one says get the fuck out,
(21:29):
like I thought that God was going home.
Speaker 27 (21:33):
Obviously, the case involved thoughts that were unusual and bizarre
and frankly, very ugly, and.
Speaker 9 (21:42):
We think that the jury just couldn't.
Speaker 13 (21:44):
Get past that.
Speaker 8 (21:46):
The conviction was devastating to everyone on the defense team.
You're representing a human being whose liberty is on the line,
and when.
Speaker 9 (21:57):
You lose, you lost it for this human being.
Speaker 8 (22:04):
I just think the jury didn't want to have the
what if moment. Sure he didn't act in the real world,
sure this was all in cyberspace, but what if.
Speaker 28 (22:13):
We were always worried that that thought would prevail over
an objective, rational, non emotional view of the evidence. People
can be prosecuted for their thoughts and convicted, which is
even sad of.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
The thing about.
Speaker 29 (22:49):
Let's call this one, let's get a little prison.
Speaker 30 (22:53):
At this point, I'm very depressed. Every day everyone thinks
I'm facing say saying technically I'm not yet. I'm still
waiting to hear from the judge. They keeps saying a
couple of weeks more, and they gets pushed back. He
gets pushed back again and again and again. Julia emailed
(23:14):
me and she said she he doesn't think it's going
to be good.
Speaker 5 (23:21):
The cannibal copcase really raises the big question, what is
the line between thought and action, right between fantasy and crime?
Speaker 12 (23:34):
And it's so.
Speaker 31 (23:35):
Gray in a case where there's no victim, there's no harm.
Was there enough evidence to show there had been an
overt act?
Speaker 20 (23:47):
The government was saying that all of his Google searches
were overt acts in furtherance of the conspiracy. Gil at
some point is thinking about eating people, and he starts typing,
how do you up to?
Speaker 3 (24:00):
Girl?
Speaker 20 (24:02):
He starts doing research in to chloroform and baking pans
and knives for cutting people up. But the idea that
a Google search would constitute an overt act, I think
is dangerous. That's where you get into thought crime.
Speaker 11 (24:21):
When we think about thought crime, we think about George
Orwell in nineteen eighty four. You think about the thought police,
think about being put away simply because of something that's
in your head.
Speaker 12 (24:32):
I think a thought crime in the modern.
Speaker 11 (24:35):
Age, in the post George Orwell age, becomes more of
a question of technology and its power to see what's
on our minds much more often than it used to
be able to.
Speaker 32 (24:47):
It's possible for the Internet to know more about you
than your best friend does, than your family members do,
because what you type in the Google search box is
often a very very very private thing, things you wouldn't
even tell your friends and family.
Speaker 20 (25:06):
His wife is typing in things like my husband doesn't
love me. It's very sad to see, but I think
it shows that Google searching is just an extension of
the thoughts we have in our heads. Sometimes we're sitting
at our computer alone and we just type them in.
Speaker 11 (25:33):
A lot of the searches the Gill was doing are
as open to interpretation as those chats are, And one
of the cases made by the defense was that this
was storytelling, that the Dark Fetish Network was some sort
of communitarian storytelling exercise. The same way that the prosecution
(26:00):
is arguing that the chats are a window into Gill's thoughts,
we can also look at literature as a window into
the author's thoughts. Someone like Stephen King can write, you know,
any number of disturbing things about human behavior, and nobody's
putting him in jail.
Speaker 33 (26:25):
Why is it that we're fascinated by stories about violence?
If you read, if you view movies, our stories move
us immediately into a safe space. Where we can imagine
(26:47):
the worst thing possible, our darkest side.
Speaker 34 (26:54):
All these violent stories go back to what are our
most basic, part timal feelings are. We have propensity for violence,
we have propensity for all sorts of horrible acts. But
if you can act on those urges and stories, then
you don't act on them in real life and theory.
Speaker 33 (27:20):
The catable cup case worries me because we're entering a
new era and it's almost uncharted territory. It's always been
fairly easy for us to draw a line between fantasy
and reality. I mean, they're the stories and images, and
(27:46):
then there's what happens in real life. Well, we are
in the postmodern era where these boundaries are becoming more
and more difficult to draw.
Speaker 23 (27:59):
It's a prospect to think that everything we do on
the Internet is in fact a window into our true,
authentic selves. It's more that the Internet invites us to
be both who we.
Speaker 9 (28:12):
Are and who we are not. The fear that a.
Speaker 23 (28:17):
Space for open trading a fantasy becomes instead a police
zone in which your thoughts may signal your future action
is a real one. If we don't protect that space,
I think we'll find ourselves in a much different society
than the one that many.
Speaker 18 (28:37):
Of us that we signed up for.
Speaker 32 (28:49):
Anybody should be allowed to write a dirty story on
the internet or have a dirty fantasy, even if it's
gruesome and tasteless and not some something you would necessarily
want to talk to your mum about over dinner.
Speaker 9 (29:04):
That's fine.
Speaker 32 (29:05):
It stops being fine when other real people are involved.
That this guy used police databases to track down women
and use his privileges as an officer of the law
to do that. Oh, it just sends a shiver down
(29:26):
my spine. I just can't. I just can't even. It's
a extraordinary breach of trust between the police as an
entity and the public at large. It wasn't just thought crime,
(29:47):
it was real crime. The idea that everything that happens
on the Internet is a fantasy and it's not really
real it is dangerous. It's just another way of not
wanting to go front the fact that these evil thoughts
and behaviors exist within human beings. It's not a product
(30:09):
of technology or possession by the devil or any kind
of outside force. It comes from us. The darkness comes
from us.
Speaker 27 (30:38):
Look what I still have police uniform. I don't know
why I kept it, well, we're not gonna wear that,
certainly not. This doesn't the door I have to iron now.
Oh god, I'm so nervous. The judge is making a
(31:01):
decision today. I called my family, I called my closest friends.
Speaker 18 (31:06):
I'm like, pray for me, Pray for me.
Speaker 27 (31:09):
Because if there's going to be bad news, I've been
holding up all this time. Erin, I've been holding up,
and I've been strong. But if I were to get
bad news, I think that would be.
Speaker 26 (31:22):
The end of me.
Speaker 27 (31:24):
I just want to give him a really big hug
that nobody tells me.
Speaker 26 (31:29):
Ma'am, ma'am, you gotta leave, you know. I just want
to hold on to him.
Speaker 27 (31:47):
I hope he doesn't have to spend one more night
in that sell.
Speaker 17 (31:52):
Julia did say that, you know, if the news is bad,
we still have other options, and what I said to
her is like, well, in.
Speaker 9 (32:00):
The meantime, my son is sitting in jail.
Speaker 17 (32:04):
Another year, another two years, how much longer.
Speaker 18 (32:12):
It's going to be a media frenzy.
Speaker 9 (32:13):
But I'm not talking to anyone.
Speaker 3 (32:18):
Can you tell us what you know is going to
happen this morning?
Speaker 15 (32:21):
No, I want to see him not be a feeling
I want to see him be a quitting He didn't
commit any crimes.
Speaker 29 (32:36):
God, I'd like to make a very very pre savement.
Speaker 35 (32:51):
I want to take this opportunity to apologize to everyone
who's been hurt.
Speaker 29 (32:55):
Shot and offended by my infantile actions.
Speaker 35 (32:59):
I also want to my family from day one be
support and never waivered. I've needed that more than anyone
will ever know during this impossible situation, or gave me.
I'm tired and I want to go home and say
some time.
Speaker 29 (33:11):
I can't thank you every.
Speaker 34 (33:15):
Months in jail, do you feel like justice has been done?
Speaker 25 (33:20):
Granting a judgment of acquittal on sufficiency of evidence grounds,
which is what the judge granted.
Speaker 18 (33:26):
It's very very unusual, and it was.
Speaker 3 (33:30):
Front page news.
Speaker 25 (33:33):
And an acquittal means what it means, you're not guilty, Okay,
doesn't mean that you're innocent. One could interpret at least
some of the things Guilt did as something that wasn't
completely consistent with innocence. It could be considered an overt
act when he went to the police database looking for tarms.
(33:55):
How are you gonna feel if you let him off
and he goes out needs.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
There's people who have been there since seven this morning.
Even though I'm acquitted, I'm in home confinement. You know,
I haven't really gotten the cabin fever yet. But yeah,
I mean they like today. I'd love to be outside. Obviously.
Speaker 13 (34:37):
Last night I'm.
Speaker 36 (34:38):
Home and my son is here, and I thought I
was dreaming. I couldn't believe it until this morning when
he's like, Mom, I need them to wear my I
need this.
Speaker 3 (34:49):
Mon need that.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
Home.
Speaker 3 (34:55):
Everything got packed up from my apartment. I wasn't there.
Speaker 13 (34:58):
He doesn't know where anything is.
Speaker 36 (35:01):
There were.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
Nobody's alarmed. I have a fork in my hand with
people around. Everyone's good, alright.
Speaker 3 (35:08):
Take care, you gotta I gotta laugh about it.
Speaker 13 (35:10):
Of course, he's a danger to society. The victims are danger.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
The bigence. I read the ruling late last night. I
mean it's judges slammed them. It's somewhere in the page eighties.
There's like five straight paragraphs where he ends all of
them with uh. This can only make sense as the
(35:41):
fantasy role played. It means like it makes no sense
whatsoever in a real conspiracy. He ends like five straight
paragraphs like that, correct, Julia, thank you, goodbye, everyone, Thanks
take care.
Speaker 13 (36:00):
Does this come off or we have to wait for
the appeal.
Speaker 3 (36:05):
No, but we have to wait for the appeal.
Speaker 13 (36:08):
Oh, that can be. That can be months.
Speaker 11 (36:13):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
This is something that was private, anonymous. It was a
you know, a little bit of a skeleton in my
closet and I'll here everything, this massive skeleton is out.
It's the epitome of embarrassment to sit in that trial
and have all these emails and chats read. I mean,
it's like, did I how the hell did I come
up with something like that?
Speaker 31 (36:40):
It was?
Speaker 2 (36:42):
It was, It was bad. I really don't know how
(37:03):
I came across it at first, but.
Speaker 3 (37:08):
It was there.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
I tried it out and people thought I was pretty good.
People accepted it, you know. I mean, yeah, I had
(37:30):
a stressful job, but I don't know how much that
played into all that. You know, I could have gone out,
I got drunk. I could have stayed up and watched TV.
Speaker 37 (37:42):
So I don't know if that had to deal with
a lot of it.
Speaker 38 (38:06):
Sexual finishism is where it comes out to play sexually.
Speaker 3 (38:12):
An item.
Speaker 38 (38:13):
A predicament, a mood triggers on arousal that is much
greater than a simple bodily arousal. It's really difficult to
understand why someone would be interested in something like that.
Speaker 39 (38:31):
A lot of people have asked a question, where does
this come from? Because they think that something went wrong,
some abuse, some trauma, bad parenting, many things have been blamed.
Because we don't know clearly where things come from. There's
a lot of room for interpretation, and there's a lot
(38:52):
of room for judgment and a lot of room for
saying things like they chose this, This is something that
they could unchoose. But we don't choose what we're aroused by.
Speaker 40 (39:15):
We live in a very Victorian puritanical culture when it
comes to sexuality. The overt part of our culture sexually
is very open. We exploit it, we talk about it,
we model it, we advertise with it. It's in our music,
it's in our art, it's in our television, it's in
our movies. But covertly, I think people are pretty uncomfortable
(39:37):
with their own sexuality. And when you juxtapose that schism
between overt expression and covert inhibition, I think that's what
creates sexual pathology and sexual problems and sexually compulsive behavior.
Speaker 13 (40:02):
Did Gil ever ask you questions about sex growing up?
Speaker 3 (40:05):
Not really.
Speaker 15 (40:07):
When he went to college, I got a whole box
of trojans, you know, be careful. He was the one
that wants a bottle or something like that, but he
just laughed took him.
Speaker 38 (40:23):
I wonder, it sounds to me like he was raised
in an atmosphere where people didn't really talk about sex,
and anything that fell outside of what was considered acceptable
was horrifying, shameful, and something's wrong with me, and I'm broken.
Speaker 17 (40:49):
I thought about what led him to get on these sides,
and I wonder if it had anything to do with
our divorce.
Speaker 13 (41:00):
Why did you guys decide to get divorced.
Speaker 15 (41:04):
Early?
Speaker 3 (41:04):
Don't want to get into that.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
I was very young, so I didn't really understand what
was going on. My memories of them involve a lot
of arguments. Unfortunately, weren't many happy times.
Speaker 17 (41:26):
His dad was very possessive, controlling, and verbally abusive. I
didn't want my son to grow up thinking that that's
how you treat a woman.
Speaker 18 (41:39):
I mean, is he going to talk about it?
Speaker 17 (41:41):
Is he going to admit that, yes, that's what made
me do it?
Speaker 18 (41:45):
Or the devil made me do it? No, just kidding.
Speaker 2 (41:52):
People try to explain why has happened. I try and
explain it. It's tough sometimes. I guess most important thing
I got out of these chats, if there was anything
about had of it at all, was just acceptance. This
is the first time I'm really opening up about all
kinds of freaky stuff, you know, cannibalism and bondage.
Speaker 3 (42:16):
All these years it's all bottled.
Speaker 2 (42:17):
Up, and here's when I have my chance to finally
talk to somebody about it. It was such a relief
to get it off my chest. When you're typing it,
(42:38):
you don't really think about it. You're just sort of
in the moment. But as soon as the computer went off,
it's over. You know, I'm the person who I am.
Speaker 3 (42:54):
I'm incapable of any violence. I couldn't hurt a fly.
Speaker 11 (43:18):
Something that the defense really has to reckon with is,
even if he's innocent of planning a kidnapping, he's still
admittedly very interested in kidnapping. He's on the record talking
about it all the time. You can't get it out
of his mind. How do you prove that he would
never do this in the future. And the ramp up
(43:42):
to the trial, they were concerned that this might break
down into a he said, She said kind of case
where the defense would say he's harmless, and the prosecution
would say he's harmful. And what they really wanted was
the voice of God to come down from on high
and say I've looked at the guy and he's as
nice as you and me. And that's what they got
(44:06):
with parkdats.
Speaker 12 (44:10):
As he is a titan in the field.
Speaker 11 (44:16):
He's interviewed John Hinckley Junior, he's interviewed Joel Rifkin, he's
interviewed Andrea Yates, and almost for that exception he works
for the prosecution that he would draw the conclusion he drew,
which is that this guy's as safe as you and me.
Speaker 12 (44:36):
That's a huge deal.
Speaker 11 (44:40):
But then when the trial actually happened, they decided not
to bring him on the stand.
Speaker 13 (44:45):
To make two changes.
Speaker 41 (44:47):
Where doctor dates to have actually testified that devian sexual
fantasy doesn't relate at all to those who sadistically rape
and who sadistically murder, he would have been slaughtered on
cross examination. Doctor Deets himself has written about how people
(45:10):
with sexually violent intentions, not just fantasies but offenders to
be may seek out law enforcement positions because of their
ability to more easily access prey. But the defense suggests
(45:31):
that Officer Valley was indulging in these cannibalistic chats and
websites because he was coping. So let me get this right.
This kind of behavior is coping. You show me one
(45:51):
sex offender treatment program that tells people go on the
internet and cope with your devian sexual arousal. Just engaging
with chats about cannibalism people, Just boy, what a therapeutic remedy.
Speaker 7 (46:07):
A psychiatrist that as routine by the defense said that
looking at these websites was a way to cope with
those urges in your experience.
Speaker 13 (46:16):
Have you heard of anything like this?
Speaker 40 (46:20):
No, I have not heard of anything like that. I
don't know that I would say that looking at those
websites is a way to cope with or manage those urges.
I would personally not prescribe that to a patient and say, well,
if you're having these violent fantasies, just look at websites
(46:40):
online and that'll help quell those those thoughts and urges.
In fact, I would wonder whether it would excite those
urges if you exercise certain neural pathways. What happens is
there's a certain reward circuitry that gets activated in the brain,
(47:02):
and when you reach a certain threshold, it becomes an
habitual or compulsive pattern, and the pathways to the prefrontal
cortex that are responsible for judgment and reasoning and making
good decisions shut down simultaneously.
Speaker 3 (47:21):
So you have a.
Speaker 40 (47:22):
Combination of elevated and pleasurable stimuli in the brain with
poor judgment. And that's kind of a perfect storm for problems.
Speaker 41 (48:17):
What is the capacity of people who are otherwise strangers,
just connected by chatroom or internet connection to influence someone
into crime from fantasy? Some fantasies remain fantasies. Some fantasies graduate,
(48:52):
the website or the chat or the activity is no
longer interesting to them in the same.
Speaker 14 (48:58):
Way, but acting on it would be.
Speaker 40 (49:21):
The connection between fantasy online and subsequent acting out is
impossible to predict. You can't just assume that fantasy means
that they will enact and behavior, but you can also
assume that they will not.
Speaker 34 (49:40):
And I will be.
Speaker 40 (49:41):
The first to tell you in psychology and psychiatry, we
are not good at predicting violent behavior.
Speaker 2 (49:50):
The highly unusual facts of this case reflect the Internet
age in which we live. Valley had discussed kidnapping, torturing, raping, murdering,
cannibalizing women with twenty four individuals.
Speaker 3 (50:05):
At trial, the government.
Speaker 2 (50:06):
Conceded that twenty one of these communications there are nothing
more than fantasy roleplay. The government nonetheless contends that values
communications with Van Heist, Ali kannor Moody Blues reflect the
real kinetic conspiracy. Because the government did not offer sufficient
evidence to permit a reasonable jury to distinguish between the
valleys alleged real chats and he's conceded fantasy chats, the
(50:30):
jury's verdict on count one cannot stand. I like when
he says, when he ends with that, the jury's verdict
cannot stand, must not stand. I just hope you know,
the government doesn't appeal this, and this is officially over,
you know right now we have that looming over our
(50:50):
heads until this thing comes off. It's not over, you know.
Go to the beach, all right, make my cross country trip. Yeah,
(51:17):
those would be good times when it happens.
Speaker 13 (51:25):
Oh.
Speaker 41 (51:31):
Perhaps the most significant aspect of this story is that
Ballet's sexuality was hidden. If one has to wall off
an entire aspect of what turns them on, then one
has a fundamentally dishonest relationship with their partner, And when
(51:55):
you have a dishonest relationship with your partner, you may
be able to maintain appearances, but the story is never
going to end well.
Speaker 42 (52:06):
He always said that because he got home late, he
couldn't go right to sleep, so he could play video games,
watch TV, go on the internet for a couple of hours.
Speaker 9 (52:19):
Then after I got pregnant, it kept getting worse.
Speaker 42 (52:24):
He would stay up until three, four five in the morning,
or just not come to sleep in our bed. And
then all this really weird stuff started happening.
Speaker 2 (52:38):
She had installed spyware on the computer, and you know,
she found the chats everything that this case is about.
Speaker 3 (52:47):
She found it all.
Speaker 42 (52:49):
It logged every keystroke that is made on the computer
and every website that has visited and takes pictures every
five minutes or so of whatever is happening on the
computer screen. There were all of these websites that I'd
never seen, dark fetish, neet, sexy Amazons, dark fet motherless
fet Life. I mean, I know sn M is kind
(53:12):
of popular, like fifty Shades of Gray, you know, but
this seemed different. The girl on the front page was dead.
I noticed on one of the screen pictures that was
taken an email address that I didn't know about. So
(53:35):
I went to Yahoo Male and entered the password that
Ghila told me to use for everything. All of a sudden,
I was staring at pictures of my friends.
Speaker 9 (53:48):
Pictures of people we knew.
Speaker 18 (53:52):
There were thousands.
Speaker 3 (53:57):
She confounded me that morning and left with the baby.
Speaker 2 (54:02):
I didn't really know what she was planning on doing,
how long she was planning on staying.
Speaker 3 (54:09):
We did stay in touch throughout.
Speaker 41 (54:49):
Partners make question themselves and say, well, why didn't I
see this before? But we've had an unexpected proximity to
decide that he doesn't show to others, wouldn't even show
to his wife.
Speaker 42 (55:10):
I was going to be tied up by my feet
and my throat slit. They would have fun watching the
blood gush out of me over and over again. Just
kept saying that the suffering was for his enjoyment, that
he wanted to make it last as long as possible,
(55:31):
that he had no remorse.
Speaker 2 (55:39):
It was tough to listen to her, you know, talk
about our relationship.
Speaker 3 (55:47):
We were the guy for three years. I thought they
were three wonderful years. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (55:52):
I would do this at night, but it didn't affect
my personal life at all. It didn't affect my job,
it didn't affect my family. I was still the good husband,
I was still the good father. I was still doing
great at work.
Speaker 41 (56:16):
It's hard to say what to do with the input
of a law enforcement officer who's an accused sex offender.
Every person charged with a crime will deny, rationalize, and
distort facts and details in order to make his behavior acceptable.
(56:41):
I'm doing this on the internet, but you know, I'm
doing it because my wife is sleeping with our newborn.
Speaker 3 (56:47):
Oh, I get it, he gets it.
Speaker 2 (56:53):
As far as sleeping, I started talking to this guy
from England, so that that was It was just a
simple and banal is that the time difference. So I
would start chatting with him over there at eight in
the morning.
Speaker 3 (57:05):
Over here, it's two o'clock.
Speaker 2 (57:06):
Normally i'd be done by then, but yeah, now I'm
playing a game with this guy, and you know, so
I'd stay up a little later. And that's all it was.
(57:37):
Isn't that amazing?
Speaker 3 (57:38):
And it's the truth. The day she puts the Spirer
on this.
Speaker 2 (57:42):
The day I'm like, I'm moving on from this because,
like I said before, it was starting to affect my
family life, and that I was staying up later and
I didn't want. You know, I always said, once it starts,
so if it, whatever affects my family has gotta go.
Speaker 3 (58:00):
So I had to go and that day. If I'd
done it a day sooner, matter is what happened.
Speaker 2 (58:06):
Isn't that incredible? I told that to you know, my
lawyers indeed said, you know, I'm not making that up.
That's that's a god honest truth in my daughter's life.
I went on that day to delete everything. It's almost
like there's a higher power who said that this had
(58:28):
to happen, and maybe one day we'll know why.
Speaker 40 (58:40):
H You know, I honestly don't know about this guy.
(59:04):
This guy, I mean, this guy, I mean, I think
the fact that they got him off on that defense
is pretty lucky for him. It's pretty unusual to have
that kind of level of violent thought and fantasy and
to get off on the defense.
Speaker 3 (59:25):
I would not be shocked if he ends up.
Speaker 18 (59:27):
Back in jail. It disturbs me that mister Valley is out.
You know, do I worry for.
Speaker 41 (59:39):
Harm?
Speaker 14 (59:40):
Not really, but.
Speaker 18 (59:44):
You know, he's a disturbed man.
Speaker 19 (59:47):
We as the jury, were confident that from what we had,
what we were given we made the best decision we could,
and when it was overturned by the judge, I felt betrayed.
It was a very difficult decision. We were not in
agreement from the very beginning. Some felt more strongly that
(01:00:12):
he was guilty, others needed much more proof. Ultimately, the
weight of it was that this decision was going to
ruin this man's life. When the trial ended and the
judge read the charges before we even talked about anything,
(01:00:36):
and we wanted everyone to understand what the charges were
and what needed to be satisfied in order to convict
a legal use of his police database. The entire jury
agreed that he was guilty immediately, and it was just
(01:00:59):
the co conspiracy charge that we really needed to take
our time with. We dissected the chats that he had
with various people, and this particular line of chats with
Moody Blues was very different from the others. We collectively
(01:01:31):
as a jury felt the tone had changed. We read
them over and over and over again, and even the
people reading them had to stop at some point because
we just couldn't take it.
Speaker 18 (01:01:47):
It was very, very hard.
Speaker 19 (01:02:01):
He was taking the steps to take it to that
next level, to make his fantasy become real. How long
does one wait till one goes through with it? The
(01:02:33):
trip to Maryland was planned to meet this college friend,
and he was bringing his wife and his daughter along
on this trip. The defense maintained that this was just
a trip to visit a friend, but his chats with
Moody Blues indicated that he couldn't wait to go see her,
(01:02:56):
that he couldn't wait to think about what he was
going to do to her, and also find out where
she worked and get some more background information. It was
proven that he did drive by her office because he
(01:03:19):
had texted to her about was that you're building? Apparently
the building has some significance on this road. He did
meet her for brunch with his wife and his daughter,
and all seemed normal, just friends getting together and talking
(01:03:44):
and her meeting his wife and his daughter. A normal
person in real life comes back from a road trip.
They've been driving, they've been with their family and their baby,
and they come home and they unpack and they relax
(01:04:08):
and they figure out what they're gonna do for dinner.
Based on the timeline, this man went straight to his
computer and straight to his friend to chat, almost like
he was reporting in.
Speaker 18 (01:04:26):
And you could tell he was excited about it.
Speaker 19 (01:04:33):
The fact that he came back from this trip and
one of the first things he did was right to
Moody Blues, was enough to say that he had made
this trip, he had a purpose for this trip, he
satisfied that purpose, and he shared it with his conspirator,
and that I think ultimately led to his downfall.
Speaker 3 (01:05:23):
You know, we sort of expected this. I mean we
felt good. Maybe they wouldn't, but vicious buys some more time.
Speaker 13 (01:05:30):
Yeah, I look English.
Speaker 2 (01:05:43):
You know, I gave myself a couple hours just to
be down. But you know, if I'm down, they win.
So I don't want to let them win anything. You know,
I don't want to let them win anything, you know,
even in jail the rest of that all the time,
like if I'm down, the government's winning. Oh that's a lot, okay,
(01:06:09):
I al, I always overdo things. I guess I'm can
get used to having me at home.
Speaker 13 (01:06:22):
I think, get used to this.
Speaker 2 (01:06:24):
Really, I'm gonna be stuck in here for how many
more months? You know, I was looking at possible heat
going out this weekend.
Speaker 13 (01:06:42):
Yeah, I mean I thought it was over, and it's
not over.
Speaker 3 (01:06:48):
Doesn't mean they're gonna go through it and forget.
Speaker 2 (01:06:51):
They're smart people. They have to know I'm innocent. They
have to know there's no evidence. They have to know
they screwed up. Maybe they're thinking, how would it look
if we just dropped it. In a sense, they had
to go through with this just to save face. You know,
what are they going to do? Bs the Court of Appeals?
Now in paperwork they can bs a jury that can
(01:07:13):
ps the judges.
Speaker 22 (01:07:24):
My father always taught me to defend the underdog, and
the underdog is always the person who is on trial
with all the resources of the state, the police, the
prosecution being used against that person. I think juries have
(01:07:45):
often been unwilling to apply the presumption of innocence. When
I have a jury, the first question I ask is
if the evidence shows that the defendant probably did it,
did you convict and many of the jurisy, of course
we will. I say strike that DURA probably isn't enough.
(01:08:07):
You have to be willing to free somebody who will
probably do something bad and it was probably done something bad.
Probably just isn't enough. Better tend guilty go free than
one innocent to be wrongly confined. We just can't allow
our system to begin to err on the side of
(01:08:27):
putting people in jail if they might not commit crimes.
Speaker 2 (01:08:36):
They said that the line between fantasy and reality cross
and we had lunch with the girl in Maryland, So
that makes it seem like shit, Like when Gil had
a lunch with this girl, you know, maybe he was
thinking about something as far as coinciding with the chat.
(01:08:58):
I knew, like, yeah, I had the chat, but you know,
I was with my wife and daughter. Nothing ever happened
with the brunch.
Speaker 3 (01:09:06):
They made the whole weekend out to be a surveillance episode.
I went down.
Speaker 2 (01:09:10):
Friday night, I'd I saw five people that weekend. We
did things pad Lan as a family down in Maryland.
Speaker 3 (01:09:17):
And the whole weekend was about surveillance. I mean, it's
just in this of the database, right.
Speaker 11 (01:09:30):
When the prosecution makes a big deal of him using
this computer to look up information about these women. Yes,
it's a violation, and yes it's a crime, But looking
at the timeline between when he actually did those searches
and when he was having chats about those women with
other people on the dark fetish network, it's not exactly
(01:09:53):
clear that he's planning anything. They might have had more
(01:10:18):
of a case if he looked up that information and
then five minutes later, there's a record of him emailing
somebody from the Dark Fetish Network saying, here's the address.
But he didn't even give anybody on the Dark Fetish
Network their addresses.
Speaker 12 (01:10:31):
He didn't even give them their last names.
Speaker 11 (01:10:36):
There's one potentially very telling moment in the chats where
Moody Blue says, what's her address.
Speaker 12 (01:10:43):
And Gil says, I can't do that. I can't give
you that. Suddenly the bubble bursts.
Speaker 11 (01:10:55):
This is Gil googling someone he has the hots for,
only instead of Google, using the police computer because he's
at work and board and says, oh, I have the
hots for Kimberly. I'm going to check out the information
and the police database for her.
Speaker 3 (01:11:10):
And so he does.
Speaker 11 (01:11:12):
And that's sick and creepy and weird. But is this
the action of a guy who's planning and conspiring a kidnapping?
Speaker 23 (01:11:21):
The prosecution had to convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt,
the highest standard in the law, he actually was agreeing
to commit the crime of kidnapping women, And here in
this case, I don't think they did.
Speaker 9 (01:11:36):
There might be a tendency to want.
Speaker 23 (01:11:37):
To punish people for who we think they are as.
Speaker 18 (01:11:41):
Opposed to what they've actually done.
Speaker 9 (01:11:44):
And so this could be a case where the jury.
Speaker 23 (01:11:46):
Heard the evidence and thought, I don't maybe think he
was going to do it this time, but I'm worried
he might do it in the future.
Speaker 9 (01:11:54):
I'm worried about what kind of person he is. I
don't like this guy.
Speaker 18 (01:11:57):
I think he's creepy.
Speaker 9 (01:11:58):
And so the you know, the way they resolve that
tension is to convict.
Speaker 19 (01:12:04):
Well, we were convicting someone on what he wanted to do,
not what he did, So we had to believe that
he was going in that direction to actually commit a crime.
It's easier to make a decision when you have fact
(01:12:24):
beyond a shadow of a doubt reasonable doubt, and there
was not anything that was fully and completely compelling.
Speaker 18 (01:12:35):
We had to understand this man through these chats.
Speaker 23 (01:12:52):
When the police got this information, absolutely they were right
to act on it. No one in the right mind,
I think, would suggest when his wife came and said,
look what I have these disturbing chats and my husband,
by the way, is a police officer with some power,
that they should.
Speaker 9 (01:13:08):
Have said, you know, go home, man, No big deal. Right,
What should they have done.
Speaker 23 (01:13:12):
They should have initiated an investigation. It could have been
as simple as an undercover agent signing up for an
account on darkfetishnet dot com and trying to engage him
and make real plans.
Speaker 11 (01:13:28):
Since Stale's conviction and since it's been tossed out, there's
been movement on other cases related to the Dark Fetish
network where the FEDS took the extra step of creating
a sting operation, and there have been people who've been
convicted after they met with agents to plan the kidnapping.
Speaker 20 (01:13:49):
One of them, Ash actually went so far as to
create a kit. He started collecting items that one might
use in a real abduction and torture scenario. He had
needles and handcuffs and speculums. He even went and he
(01:14:10):
bought a stun gun. You can see that they took
this so much farther than Gilded. It makes you realize
that there is this whole so many steps before you
get to actually plunging out of a car at someone
and trying to hurt them.
Speaker 21 (01:14:33):
Some very reasonable people could come to the conclusion that
unless and until he's in a car with the rope
and the chloroform headed to wherever Victim III lives.
Speaker 3 (01:14:45):
It's not enough.
Speaker 21 (01:14:47):
Some reasonable people could also say even that's not enough.
It's not enough until he gets to the doorstep and
actually starts walking up the steps and is about to
hit the doorbell and say Hi, it's Gilberto.
Speaker 3 (01:15:02):
Can I come up?
Speaker 21 (01:15:05):
And some people would probably even quite reasonably conclude that
we really don't know what he's going to do in
that apartment.
Speaker 16 (01:15:19):
There is always reasonable doubt about whether or not someone
is going to take a particular action. We don't know,
right and police officers don't have some magical psychic wand
that allows them to know either. We don't want to
(01:15:41):
give the government the ability to decide what fantasies meet
the thought police's bar for acceptability.
Speaker 18 (01:15:52):
That bar is rightly high.
Speaker 16 (01:15:56):
Look, if the First Amendment protects someone fantasying about violently
raping and killing and eating a woman, it's going to
protect pretty much anything you're thinking about. And that's what
principles mean. They make us uncomfortable, and we apply them regardless.
Speaker 2 (01:16:26):
We're going down support from my sentencing for a misdemeanor.
The big news out of today will be whether or
not this house arrest is over number two is a
government going to go through with their appeal.
Speaker 11 (01:16:56):
The interesting thing about what's happening with Gil now is
that he no longer is just the cannibal cop. He's
patient zero in the thought police epidemic that might sweep
the nation. We're all determined to try and stop horrible
tragedies before they actually happen, and we feel like we
(01:17:18):
can do it that all we have to do in
the future is monitor the right things and set up
enough cameras and do enough computer surveillance.
Speaker 12 (01:17:31):
But to me, that is an extraordinary assumption to be making.
Speaker 23 (01:17:40):
For if we had an MRI that could read your mind,
would we want to comb through society and find the
true deviance among us who think these deviant thoughts and
really mean to execute them, or would execute them.
Speaker 9 (01:17:56):
In a perfect environment.
Speaker 23 (01:18:00):
In science fiction like Minority Report, where they talk about
pre crime, that's a dystopic vision. And I think that's
because when you think about it, it's often hard for
any individual person to even know themselves the line between
what they're imagining and what's real.
Speaker 9 (01:18:20):
It's part of the mystery of humanity.
Speaker 43 (01:18:38):
You know, There's been a lot said about me when
these allegations came out, and you know that's not who
I really am. That's every People who know me the
best know that, and I'm ready to show people who
I really am.
Speaker 3 (01:18:53):
That's it.
Speaker 12 (01:18:54):
Could you give us some idea what got you involved
in the.
Speaker 10 (01:19:00):
Issues in the first.
Speaker 43 (01:19:01):
Place, And I'm not gonna comment on that.
Speaker 1 (01:19:05):
I know.
Speaker 11 (01:19:06):
One of the most troubling gray areas of this case
is that most of us don't understand why someone would
act on an impulse like this.
Speaker 12 (01:19:18):
I don't think the jurors, I don't think the media.
Speaker 11 (01:19:20):
I don't think many people at all could really look
into his heart and really understand Gil as a person.
Is he a harmless, teddy bear of a guy or
is he a nefarious master criminal?
Speaker 3 (01:19:35):
I really don't know.
Speaker 42 (01:19:40):
For at this beautiful thing right here, I think part
of you wants me back, but the other part of
you wants to kill me. I don't know which Gil
is real. I'm afraid I don't know you at all.
Speaker 32 (01:20:02):
What makes somebody an ethical human being isn't what they think,
but what they choose to do with the thoughts. Somebody
can be having the most dark, depraved thoughts, but if
they don't do anything about them or find an outlet
that is entirely harmless, then that doesn't stop them being
(01:20:26):
a decent human being. And in the gap between thought
and action, that's where people actually discover what kind of
human being they are. And I think people have to
be allowed to make that discovery and then live with
the consequences.
Speaker 2 (01:20:45):
There's no news yet with the appeal. They haven't submitted
anything yet. Today's a deadline, so I guess they have
until eleven fifty nine. They'll probably wait till eleven fifty
But I got an appeal, I.
Speaker 14 (01:21:07):
Mean, ROB thought about it.
Speaker 3 (01:21:33):
I don't want to get my hopes up, but I
ain't mentioned it in court.
Speaker 11 (01:21:38):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (01:21:39):
I haven't filed it yet, but I don't want to
get my hopes up. It's already been such a good day.
You know, this really could be over time completely.
Speaker 3 (01:22:01):
They haven't until midnight, so we're waiting till midnight. Then
that's it. They never asked one more time, and that,
you know, the thing better be dismissed.
Speaker 2 (01:22:20):
Nothing we see it. TikTok, TikTok. Let's go midnight, go on.
(01:22:41):
What are an ending it would be?
Speaker 20 (01:22:42):
You know.
Speaker 3 (01:22:44):
Today it would all end. I'm you know, the supervision.
Speaker 2 (01:22:49):
I'm not worried about It's not like I'm gonna go
out and commit a crime or anything like that. I
have no desire, not the slightest inkle to get back
on any fetish website.
Speaker 3 (01:23:04):
Those days are gone. Nothing will be hanging over my
head anymore.
Speaker 13 (01:23:24):
I fell asleep and I woke up at after twelve.
I'm it's quiet down there. My heart starts raising concern.
Speaker 3 (01:23:31):
This is concerning me, though I don't know what this is.
Speaker 2 (01:23:42):
I'm on something called cases Selection Table, and we're on
the second circuit for sure.
Speaker 3 (01:23:54):
Yeah, I see it. Yeah, all right, but they file
it's around seven point thirty. Really, yeah, we were looking
at the wrong thing. I was expecting it. It's the
(01:24:33):
same arguments, you know that I conducted surveillance.
Speaker 13 (01:24:37):
Oh god, yeah, so they really make it.
Speaker 3 (01:24:41):
I attempted to establish trusts.
Speaker 13 (01:24:47):
It's laughable.
Speaker 3 (01:24:54):
I'm not worried, don't you know. Don't worry about it.
M today was you know, enough of a good day.
You know, I'm not worried at all. All Right, I'll stop,
I'll stop by tomorrow, right, all.
Speaker 2 (01:25:12):
Right, all right, see, all right, let's hope my cell
(01:26:03):
phone is not seven hundred yards from somebody I knew
in high school. Everything sort of overwhelms me sometimes with
the appeal coming and the notoriety that's now surrounding my life.
Speaker 3 (01:26:30):
Well, sometimes I feel like someone's watching me.
Speaker 2 (01:26:35):
But the first couple of weeks I was out, I
realized that no one was really recognizing me. So I
started getting more and more comfortable going out, and I
thought the next step was to get to dating again.
Speaker 3 (01:26:52):
It's been a long time, you know.
Speaker 2 (01:26:53):
I think sometimes I'm craving a little you know, I'm
creating some companionship.
Speaker 3 (01:26:58):
There's nothing wrong with that.
Speaker 2 (01:27:03):
If I do go, you know, out with a girl,
at what point in a dating process do I bring
this whole thing up, she either be you know, run
for the hills, or she'd be.
Speaker 3 (01:27:18):
Somewhat curious interested.
Speaker 2 (01:27:21):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (01:27:21):
There have to be people out there who are interested.
Speaker 2 (01:27:27):
But some people are gonna think I should be locked
up for the rest of my life. There's no getting
around that I made a bad mistake, the really bad mistake.
But you know, it's not going to cost me the
rest of my life.
Speaker 3 (01:28:02):
Sho
Oh stop, oh stop.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
When you're behind a computer screen late at night, no
one knows who you are, where you are. I became
part of this cyber community where people are exploring devian
thoughts and exploring their fetishes. If I'm not the only
(01:24):
one out there with these thoughts, they were accepted. The
anonymity makes you try not do the other person, who
could be the sicker one, who could be the more
to prave one. The baby was sleeping, the mom was sleeping.
(01:52):
There was just nothing to do. And then you shut
the computer off and that's it.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
They go back to being the regular me.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
But someone might say the anonymous nature could also bring
out who you really are. And my worst nightmare I
could ever guessed that this would have happened.
Speaker 4 (02:48):
Breaking news and almost unbelievable story. A New York City
police officer has been arrested in a failed plot to
kidnap dozens of women, cooked them, and then eat them.
Speaker 5 (03:00):
Gilberto Vale has become known as the Cannibal Coup. The
twenty eight year old's wife uncovered the alleged plot.
Speaker 6 (03:07):
Charge in a conspiracy to commit kidnapping and allegedly used
NYPD computers to get information on a list of victims.
Speaker 7 (03:18):
Defense lawyers did not deny his online activity, but called
it a sexual fantasy that he would never act on.
Speaker 8 (03:26):
These are thoughts, very ugly thoughts, but we don't prosecute people.
Speaker 9 (03:30):
For their thoughts.
Speaker 10 (03:32):
It comes down to this, is this guy just fantasizing
or is there enough evidence to suggest he was really
planning to do this.
Speaker 11 (03:50):
There's nothing we like better than at least in fection
a killer. You know, the worst, meanest, baddest, roughest to
a serial killer in the world. Let's get inside their
heart and mind and figure out exactly what they're about.
And there are story archetypes that we all sort of
adhere to. Gil as the cannibal cop was typed as well,
(04:18):
whether it was the monster of the week or as
this week's hannibal lecter, as a master criminal, or as
a vicious beast who needed to be controlled. Not only
was this someone who seemed to have been planning to
abduct and eat his wife and other women, but the
idea of him wandering around with a badge was something
(04:40):
so devious that it was unbelievable. But then when it
actually made it to trial, there were two sides to
this story, and when the defense stood up and said,
this is a thought police case, and then suddenly it.
Speaker 12 (04:57):
Got even more theatrical and more interesting.
Speaker 11 (05:03):
It was the best that true crime has to offer
because it was about a crazy side of human behavior
that we don't get.
Speaker 12 (05:10):
To see, and that's what was happening in real life.
Speaker 13 (05:13):
Here, audience, good human.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
Check one check too, check one, check too.
Speaker 13 (05:37):
There you go.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
There were a lot of myths about what was going
on here.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
You got a picture painted in your head, you got
a story, and you just start once you had that
initial concept, Once that you had that preconceived notion, you
start to seek out pieces of information and that that
go with that, that jive with it, and you disregard
things that go against that. You know, I want everyone
(06:09):
to have all the facts in front of them before
they make up the minds for themselves.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
I grew up in Queens, New York.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
My parents separated at an early age. Mom was more
soft love, you know, she was there for emotional support,
that would be the one to pick you in the butt.
He was very you know, strict, and we didn't want
to disappoint my dad.
Speaker 7 (06:44):
Vaya's arrest comes after the FBI obtained detailed accounts of
the barbaric plants. The government says Vaya made his sick
plans in online chat rooms. His father in disbelief, of course.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
I'm shocked.
Speaker 14 (06:57):
Is it possible?
Speaker 3 (06:59):
I don't think so.
Speaker 15 (07:01):
As a parent, now that all is has happened, a
lot of different things going to their mind.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Is he crazy? You know, all this stuff coming to together?
Speaker 16 (07:13):
What is he?
Speaker 13 (07:13):
Is he crazy?
Speaker 16 (07:20):
How did you feel when you heard the first allegations
about cannibalism and kidnapping.
Speaker 17 (07:25):
I couldn't believe it. I said, that's not my son.
I'm like, there's got to be a mistake. That's not
my son. Kiss The first time that I actually heard
these internet chats, that's when I noticed. I'm like, okay,
(07:49):
my son did have a problem. For the good boy
that I know, to be discussing women in such a way,
it was just horrible. But if anything, he needed help,
(08:15):
See a psychiatrist, see a therapist. I mean, I'm not
saying whether it's right or wrong, but you know, some
people choose to let out their frustrations by going to
the gym, punching a punching bag.
Speaker 18 (08:29):
That might work for them.
Speaker 17 (08:31):
For some it might be getting on a site like
this and fantasizing.
Speaker 18 (08:39):
You know, thoughts of horrible thoughts like that.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
He created a master.
Speaker 19 (08:52):
He's a good writer.
Speaker 15 (08:55):
I mean, how could anybody believe that one person they're
going to kidnap one hundred women and cook and eat
one hundred women. Which one was in the trunk of
his car, Which one was in the spit over the fire,
(09:17):
which one was in the oven.
Speaker 20 (09:22):
The fact that he's sitting there in his apartment while
his wife and baby are asleep in the next room
and he's talking about, you know, slitting her throat, and
the fact that he's going around in his police uniform
all contribute to a sense of dread around it. But
(09:48):
was he involved in the planning of a real crime?
And at what point is it appropriate to step in?
There was no real world attempt. But when they went
through his computer they found twenty four sets of conversations,
and twenty one of them people said, Hey, is this
(10:10):
for real? And gill Valley said, no, this is a fantasy.
No matter what I say, it's all make believe. But
in three he never said that. In fact, there were
some moments in those chats where one of the participants
would say, hey, are you for real, and gil Valley
(10:31):
would say yes he was. That could seem like evidence
that this was a real conspiracy.
Speaker 21 (10:47):
We do not have thought crime in this country. We
do not prosecute people for what they think. It is
permissible to have all of the thoughts from a criminal
law enforcement point of view that Gilberto v a hat.
What's impermissible is planning with another person to execute on
those thoughts. Two charges had been brought against him, conspiracy
(11:12):
to kidnap, as well as an unauthorized use of a
law enforcement database in order to gain some information about
one of the victims.
Speaker 22 (11:21):
Conspiracy is the prosecutor's fave or instrument. In order to
be convicted of an attempt, you have to not only
intend to do it, but you have to go beyond
preparation and cross a line that suggests that you're gonna
do it unless something stops you. Conspiracy allows you to
(11:43):
move that line back. If two people just talk about
doing something terrible and agree to do it and then
take one overt act, they can be prosecuted put in
jail for the rest of their lives.
Speaker 9 (12:01):
The overt act doesn't have to be a crime itself.
Speaker 23 (12:03):
You know, it's not like you say, let's go rob
a bank, and the overt act then is you steal
a car to be the getaway car. It could be
something that is entirely lawful. Otherwise it just might have
special meaning.
Speaker 21 (12:16):
Here. The defendant talked about disabling his victims using chloroform.
He then searched how to make chloroform. The defendants talked
about stalking their victims, and in fact, there was a
search of a proprietary law enforcement only database as to where.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
One of the victims lived.
Speaker 12 (12:38):
This is not a simple.
Speaker 22 (12:41):
Case of where you're going after somebody just w thought
some equal thoughts. He took lots of steps in the
direction of possibly doing terrible things.
Speaker 20 (12:54):
He traveled to Maryland to visit one of the alleged
intended dictims. This target of his supposed plot was his
college friend. If you think this is a dangerous, dangerous man,
then everything that he did in real life takes on
(13:16):
this really ominous color to it. This trip to Maryland
with his wife and baby could seem like a recon
mission for a murderous kidnapping plot.
Speaker 22 (13:30):
If he in fact was planning to kill somebody specifically,
then all of these would be overacts within any meaning
of the law. The question is what was in his mind,
and I'm not sure he knew.
Speaker 5 (13:49):
Opening statements today in the trial of the Cannibal Cup.
Speaker 21 (13:53):
In the words of both the prosecution and defense attorneys,
this is going to be a bizarre trial.
Speaker 24 (14:07):
I don't get to draw nudes very often. I usually
see people sitting in a chair looking straight ahead at
a judge. But I got to do people on spits,
women being cooked and roasted, and visuals of dark fetish
net If you pull.
Speaker 18 (14:27):
In you could see little naked bodies.
Speaker 9 (14:31):
It's pretty amazing.
Speaker 18 (14:33):
I've never really seen anything like that in a trial.
Speaker 10 (14:37):
There were reporters there from all over the country. We'd
heard a lot about this case, but now all of
it was being laid out in front of us for
the first time. There were three alleged co conspirators. Michael
van Hyes, somebody in Pakistan known as Ali Khan in
(15:00):
England known as Moody Blues. He had these plans written
out for how to kidnap women. He was planning on
building a pulley apparatus in his basement to string women
(15:24):
up and torture them and slow rose them. Says he
had a giant oven that he planned on stuffing these
women into It all sounded crazy but potentially true.
Speaker 19 (15:43):
We had a tome of the chats copied for us,
and we were in the position to determine how much
of it was real and how much of it was fantasy.
I think we all agreed, this man has a problem,
This is sick, is really quite sick. But we weren't
(16:03):
there to convict on his sick mind. We were there
to convict on a conspiracy to kidnap and kill and
maim and rape. What made it very real was that
he took pictures from real people in his life and
(16:24):
shared them on these sites, and that, for me, takes
a past fantasy. He had what was called a blueprint
and had made a list of what he needed. He
had the ability to retrieve all these materials. That made
(16:51):
it very real to us that any one of these
women could have been a true victim of his.
Speaker 10 (17:04):
Alicia Frisca early on became a major figure in the case.
Investigator said Gil had been stalking her.
Speaker 11 (17:37):
When Gill starts talking money with Michael Van Hyes, that
shifting tone is chilling. He's suddenly very grizzly and mechanical,
and let's talk Turkey. Here's how we're going to get
it done, and that feels like things are starting to
(17:59):
get more real.
Speaker 25 (18:10):
These fantasies were really really scary, and the level of
detail that Gil talked about and that other people talked
about on the Internet was also really really scary. The reality,
of course, coming back to the reality, is that none
(18:31):
of the things that they said ever came to pass.
They often missed dates. They said, I'll call you on
Tuesday and we'll do something then, and then nothing happens
on Tuesday. Nothing happens with three tuesdays, and then nothing
ever happens at all.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
These are fantasies.
Speaker 10 (18:54):
There was no giant oven that could fit somebody inside
of it. There was no polyapria, this being set up
in the basement. In fact, the basement was a laundry
room for everyone in his Queen's apartment building to use,
and wouldn't be a very good torture chamber.
Speaker 23 (19:12):
Let's put it this way, if this was done on Craigslist,
you would know you were being scammed. He didn't have
any of the things you would need according to his
own blueprints and plans on how to do this.
Speaker 9 (19:24):
He made up false information. It wouldn't be effected.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
You read about the case, you read about these chats,
and you're horrifyed, you're turned off, you want to step away,
and you're just like, this guy's a monster.
Speaker 14 (19:40):
Be for you.
Speaker 3 (19:42):
Whatever.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Yeah, this is the pray language and unconventional thoughts, but
there's no evidence.
Speaker 19 (19:56):
Shock in the courtroom guilty of conspiracy to commit kidnapping,
also guilty of wrongfully accessing a federal database.
Speaker 17 (20:08):
I almost frozen time, and all I kept hearing was guilty, guilty, guilty.
For me to see him in shackles, it's heartbreaking.
Speaker 26 (20:25):
But you know, through all.
Speaker 17 (20:26):
This, I haven't cried until now, and I feel like
I want to scream.
Speaker 18 (20:34):
I never let it out.
Speaker 17 (20:38):
He's not a cannibal.
Speaker 18 (20:40):
He never ate anyone.
Speaker 17 (20:44):
Isn't that The true definition of a cannibal is someone
that eats human meat.
Speaker 3 (20:56):
How are you doing? Out all due respect, how are
you doing?
Speaker 13 (21:02):
I'm strong.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
I went back to the prison and that's when I
broke down. I didn't want to do it in front
of my family, but I broke down. I hear a
couple officers talking outside. One of them comes in and says,
value are convicted, and another one says get the fuck out,
(21:29):
like I thought that God was going home.
Speaker 27 (21:33):
Obviously, the case involved thoughts that were unusual and bizarre
and frankly, very ugly, and.
Speaker 9 (21:42):
We think that the jury just couldn't.
Speaker 13 (21:44):
Get past that.
Speaker 8 (21:46):
The conviction was devastating to everyone on the defense team.
You're representing a human being whose liberty is on the line,
and when.
Speaker 9 (21:57):
You lose, you lost it for this human being.
Speaker 8 (22:04):
I just think the jury didn't want to have the
what if moment. Sure he didn't act in the real world,
sure this was all in cyberspace, but what if.
Speaker 28 (22:13):
We were always worried that that thought would prevail over
an objective, rational, non emotional view of the evidence. People
can be prosecuted for their thoughts and convicted, which is
even sad of.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
The thing about.
Speaker 29 (22:49):
Let's call this one, let's get a little prison.
Speaker 30 (22:53):
At this point, I'm very depressed. Every day everyone thinks
I'm facing say saying technically I'm not yet. I'm still
waiting to hear from the judge. They keeps saying a
couple of weeks more, and they gets pushed back. He
gets pushed back again and again and again. Julia emailed
(23:14):
me and she said she he doesn't think it's going
to be good.
Speaker 5 (23:21):
The cannibal copcase really raises the big question, what is
the line between thought and action, right between fantasy and crime?
Speaker 12 (23:34):
And it's so.
Speaker 31 (23:35):
Gray in a case where there's no victim, there's no harm.
Was there enough evidence to show there had been an
overt act?
Speaker 20 (23:47):
The government was saying that all of his Google searches
were overt acts in furtherance of the conspiracy. Gil at
some point is thinking about eating people, and he starts typing,
how do you up to?
Speaker 3 (24:00):
Girl?
Speaker 20 (24:02):
He starts doing research in to chloroform and baking pans
and knives for cutting people up. But the idea that
a Google search would constitute an overt act, I think
is dangerous. That's where you get into thought crime.
Speaker 11 (24:21):
When we think about thought crime, we think about George
Orwell in nineteen eighty four. You think about the thought police,
think about being put away simply because of something that's
in your head.
Speaker 12 (24:32):
I think a thought crime in the modern.
Speaker 11 (24:35):
Age, in the post George Orwell age, becomes more of
a question of technology and its power to see what's
on our minds much more often than it used to
be able to.
Speaker 32 (24:47):
It's possible for the Internet to know more about you
than your best friend does, than your family members do,
because what you type in the Google search box is
often a very very very private thing, things you wouldn't
even tell your friends and family.
Speaker 20 (25:06):
His wife is typing in things like my husband doesn't
love me. It's very sad to see, but I think
it shows that Google searching is just an extension of
the thoughts we have in our heads. Sometimes we're sitting
at our computer alone and we just type them in.
Speaker 11 (25:33):
A lot of the searches the Gill was doing are
as open to interpretation as those chats are, And one
of the cases made by the defense was that this
was storytelling, that the Dark Fetish Network was some sort
of communitarian storytelling exercise. The same way that the prosecution
(26:00):
is arguing that the chats are a window into Gill's thoughts,
we can also look at literature as a window into
the author's thoughts. Someone like Stephen King can write, you know,
any number of disturbing things about human behavior, and nobody's
putting him in jail.
Speaker 33 (26:25):
Why is it that we're fascinated by stories about violence?
If you read, if you view movies, our stories move
us immediately into a safe space. Where we can imagine
(26:47):
the worst thing possible, our darkest side.
Speaker 34 (26:54):
All these violent stories go back to what are our
most basic, part timal feelings are. We have propensity for violence,
we have propensity for all sorts of horrible acts. But
if you can act on those urges and stories, then
you don't act on them in real life and theory.
Speaker 33 (27:20):
The catable cup case worries me because we're entering a
new era and it's almost uncharted territory. It's always been
fairly easy for us to draw a line between fantasy
and reality. I mean, they're the stories and images, and
(27:46):
then there's what happens in real life. Well, we are
in the postmodern era where these boundaries are becoming more
and more difficult to draw.
Speaker 23 (27:59):
It's a prospect to think that everything we do on
the Internet is in fact a window into our true,
authentic selves. It's more that the Internet invites us to
be both who we.
Speaker 9 (28:12):
Are and who we are not. The fear that a.
Speaker 23 (28:17):
Space for open trading a fantasy becomes instead a police
zone in which your thoughts may signal your future action
is a real one. If we don't protect that space,
I think we'll find ourselves in a much different society
than the one that many.
Speaker 18 (28:37):
Of us that we signed up for.
Speaker 32 (28:49):
Anybody should be allowed to write a dirty story on
the internet or have a dirty fantasy, even if it's
gruesome and tasteless and not some something you would necessarily
want to talk to your mum about over dinner.
Speaker 9 (29:04):
That's fine.
Speaker 32 (29:05):
It stops being fine when other real people are involved.
That this guy used police databases to track down women
and use his privileges as an officer of the law
to do that. Oh, it just sends a shiver down
(29:26):
my spine. I just can't. I just can't even. It's
a extraordinary breach of trust between the police as an
entity and the public at large. It wasn't just thought crime,
(29:47):
it was real crime. The idea that everything that happens
on the Internet is a fantasy and it's not really
real it is dangerous. It's just another way of not
wanting to go front the fact that these evil thoughts
and behaviors exist within human beings. It's not a product
(30:09):
of technology or possession by the devil or any kind
of outside force. It comes from us. The darkness comes
from us.
Speaker 27 (30:38):
Look what I still have police uniform. I don't know
why I kept it, well, we're not gonna wear that,
certainly not. This doesn't the door I have to iron now.
Oh god, I'm so nervous. The judge is making a
(31:01):
decision today. I called my family, I called my closest friends.
Speaker 18 (31:06):
I'm like, pray for me, Pray for me.
Speaker 27 (31:09):
Because if there's going to be bad news, I've been
holding up all this time. Erin, I've been holding up,
and I've been strong. But if I were to get
bad news, I think that would be.
Speaker 26 (31:22):
The end of me.
Speaker 27 (31:24):
I just want to give him a really big hug
that nobody tells me.
Speaker 26 (31:29):
Ma'am, ma'am, you gotta leave, you know. I just want
to hold on to him.
Speaker 27 (31:47):
I hope he doesn't have to spend one more night
in that sell.
Speaker 17 (31:52):
Julia did say that, you know, if the news is bad,
we still have other options, and what I said to
her is like, well, in.
Speaker 9 (32:00):
The meantime, my son is sitting in jail.
Speaker 17 (32:04):
Another year, another two years, how much longer.
Speaker 18 (32:12):
It's going to be a media frenzy.
Speaker 9 (32:13):
But I'm not talking to anyone.
Speaker 3 (32:18):
Can you tell us what you know is going to
happen this morning?
Speaker 15 (32:21):
No, I want to see him not be a feeling
I want to see him be a quitting He didn't
commit any crimes.
Speaker 29 (32:36):
God, I'd like to make a very very pre savement.
Speaker 35 (32:51):
I want to take this opportunity to apologize to everyone
who's been hurt.
Speaker 29 (32:55):
Shot and offended by my infantile actions.
Speaker 35 (32:59):
I also want to my family from day one be
support and never waivered. I've needed that more than anyone
will ever know during this impossible situation, or gave me.
I'm tired and I want to go home and say
some time.
Speaker 29 (33:11):
I can't thank you every.
Speaker 34 (33:15):
Months in jail, do you feel like justice has been done?
Speaker 25 (33:20):
Granting a judgment of acquittal on sufficiency of evidence grounds,
which is what the judge granted.
Speaker 18 (33:26):
It's very very unusual, and it was.
Speaker 3 (33:30):
Front page news.
Speaker 25 (33:33):
And an acquittal means what it means, you're not guilty, Okay,
doesn't mean that you're innocent. One could interpret at least
some of the things Guilt did as something that wasn't
completely consistent with innocence. It could be considered an overt
act when he went to the police database looking for tarms.
(33:55):
How are you gonna feel if you let him off
and he goes out needs.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
There's people who have been there since seven this morning.
Even though I'm acquitted, I'm in home confinement. You know,
I haven't really gotten the cabin fever yet. But yeah,
I mean they like today. I'd love to be outside. Obviously.
Speaker 13 (34:37):
Last night I'm.
Speaker 36 (34:38):
Home and my son is here, and I thought I
was dreaming. I couldn't believe it until this morning when
he's like, Mom, I need them to wear my I
need this.
Speaker 3 (34:49):
Mon need that.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
Home.
Speaker 3 (34:55):
Everything got packed up from my apartment. I wasn't there.
Speaker 13 (34:58):
He doesn't know where anything is.
Speaker 36 (35:01):
There were.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
Nobody's alarmed. I have a fork in my hand with
people around. Everyone's good, alright.
Speaker 3 (35:08):
Take care, you gotta I gotta laugh about it.
Speaker 13 (35:10):
Of course, he's a danger to society. The victims are danger.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
The bigence. I read the ruling late last night. I
mean it's judges slammed them. It's somewhere in the page eighties.
There's like five straight paragraphs where he ends all of
them with uh. This can only make sense as the
(35:41):
fantasy role played. It means like it makes no sense
whatsoever in a real conspiracy. He ends like five straight
paragraphs like that, correct, Julia, thank you, goodbye, everyone, Thanks
take care.
Speaker 13 (36:00):
Does this come off or we have to wait for
the appeal.
Speaker 3 (36:05):
No, but we have to wait for the appeal.
Speaker 13 (36:08):
Oh, that can be. That can be months.
Speaker 11 (36:13):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
This is something that was private, anonymous. It was a
you know, a little bit of a skeleton in my
closet and I'll here everything, this massive skeleton is out.
It's the epitome of embarrassment to sit in that trial
and have all these emails and chats read. I mean,
it's like, did I how the hell did I come
up with something like that?
Speaker 31 (36:40):
It was?
Speaker 2 (36:42):
It was, It was bad. I really don't know how
(37:03):
I came across it at first, but.
Speaker 3 (37:08):
It was there.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
I tried it out and people thought I was pretty good.
People accepted it, you know. I mean, yeah, I had
(37:30):
a stressful job, but I don't know how much that
played into all that. You know, I could have gone out,
I got drunk. I could have stayed up and watched TV.
Speaker 37 (37:42):
So I don't know if that had to deal with
a lot of it.
Speaker 38 (38:06):
Sexual finishism is where it comes out to play sexually.
Speaker 3 (38:12):
An item.
Speaker 38 (38:13):
A predicament, a mood triggers on arousal that is much
greater than a simple bodily arousal. It's really difficult to
understand why someone would be interested in something like that.
Speaker 39 (38:31):
A lot of people have asked a question, where does
this come from? Because they think that something went wrong,
some abuse, some trauma, bad parenting, many things have been blamed.
Because we don't know clearly where things come from. There's
a lot of room for interpretation, and there's a lot
(38:52):
of room for judgment and a lot of room for
saying things like they chose this, This is something that
they could unchoose. But we don't choose what we're aroused by.
Speaker 40 (39:15):
We live in a very Victorian puritanical culture when it
comes to sexuality. The overt part of our culture sexually
is very open. We exploit it, we talk about it,
we model it, we advertise with it. It's in our music,
it's in our art, it's in our television, it's in
our movies. But covertly, I think people are pretty uncomfortable
(39:37):
with their own sexuality. And when you juxtapose that schism
between overt expression and covert inhibition, I think that's what
creates sexual pathology and sexual problems and sexually compulsive behavior.
Speaker 13 (40:02):
Did Gil ever ask you questions about sex growing up?
Speaker 3 (40:05):
Not really.
Speaker 15 (40:07):
When he went to college, I got a whole box
of trojans, you know, be careful. He was the one
that wants a bottle or something like that, but he
just laughed took him.
Speaker 38 (40:23):
I wonder, it sounds to me like he was raised
in an atmosphere where people didn't really talk about sex,
and anything that fell outside of what was considered acceptable
was horrifying, shameful, and something's wrong with me, and I'm broken.
Speaker 17 (40:49):
I thought about what led him to get on these sides,
and I wonder if it had anything to do with
our divorce.
Speaker 13 (41:00):
Why did you guys decide to get divorced.
Speaker 15 (41:04):
Early?
Speaker 3 (41:04):
Don't want to get into that.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
I was very young, so I didn't really understand what
was going on. My memories of them involve a lot
of arguments. Unfortunately, weren't many happy times.
Speaker 17 (41:26):
His dad was very possessive, controlling, and verbally abusive. I
didn't want my son to grow up thinking that that's
how you treat a woman.
Speaker 18 (41:39):
I mean, is he going to talk about it?
Speaker 17 (41:41):
Is he going to admit that, yes, that's what made
me do it?
Speaker 18 (41:45):
Or the devil made me do it? No, just kidding.
Speaker 2 (41:52):
People try to explain why has happened. I try and
explain it. It's tough sometimes. I guess most important thing
I got out of these chats, if there was anything
about had of it at all, was just acceptance. This
is the first time I'm really opening up about all
kinds of freaky stuff, you know, cannibalism and bondage.
Speaker 3 (42:16):
All these years it's all bottled.
Speaker 2 (42:17):
Up, and here's when I have my chance to finally
talk to somebody about it. It was such a relief
to get it off my chest. When you're typing it,
(42:38):
you don't really think about it. You're just sort of
in the moment. But as soon as the computer went off,
it's over. You know, I'm the person who I am.
Speaker 3 (42:54):
I'm incapable of any violence. I couldn't hurt a fly.
Speaker 11 (43:18):
Something that the defense really has to reckon with is,
even if he's innocent of planning a kidnapping, he's still
admittedly very interested in kidnapping. He's on the record talking
about it all the time. You can't get it out
of his mind. How do you prove that he would
never do this in the future. And the ramp up
(43:42):
to the trial, they were concerned that this might break
down into a he said, She said kind of case
where the defense would say he's harmless, and the prosecution
would say he's harmful. And what they really wanted was
the voice of God to come down from on high
and say I've looked at the guy and he's as
nice as you and me. And that's what they got
(44:06):
with parkdats.
Speaker 12 (44:10):
As he is a titan in the field.
Speaker 11 (44:16):
He's interviewed John Hinckley Junior, he's interviewed Joel Rifkin, he's
interviewed Andrea Yates, and almost for that exception he works
for the prosecution that he would draw the conclusion he drew,
which is that this guy's as safe as you and me.
Speaker 12 (44:36):
That's a huge deal.
Speaker 11 (44:40):
But then when the trial actually happened, they decided not
to bring him on the stand.
Speaker 13 (44:45):
To make two changes.
Speaker 41 (44:47):
Where doctor dates to have actually testified that devian sexual
fantasy doesn't relate at all to those who sadistically rape
and who sadistically murder, he would have been slaughtered on
cross examination. Doctor Deets himself has written about how people
(45:10):
with sexually violent intentions, not just fantasies but offenders to
be may seek out law enforcement positions because of their
ability to more easily access prey. But the defense suggests
(45:31):
that Officer Valley was indulging in these cannibalistic chats and
websites because he was coping. So let me get this right.
This kind of behavior is coping. You show me one
(45:51):
sex offender treatment program that tells people go on the
internet and cope with your devian sexual arousal. Just engaging
with chats about cannibalism people, Just boy, what a therapeutic remedy.
Speaker 7 (46:07):
A psychiatrist that as routine by the defense said that
looking at these websites was a way to cope with
those urges in your experience.
Speaker 13 (46:16):
Have you heard of anything like this?
Speaker 40 (46:20):
No, I have not heard of anything like that. I
don't know that I would say that looking at those
websites is a way to cope with or manage those urges.
I would personally not prescribe that to a patient and say, well,
if you're having these violent fantasies, just look at websites
(46:40):
online and that'll help quell those those thoughts and urges.
In fact, I would wonder whether it would excite those
urges if you exercise certain neural pathways. What happens is
there's a certain reward circuitry that gets activated in the brain,
(47:02):
and when you reach a certain threshold, it becomes an
habitual or compulsive pattern, and the pathways to the prefrontal
cortex that are responsible for judgment and reasoning and making
good decisions shut down simultaneously.
Speaker 3 (47:21):
So you have a.
Speaker 40 (47:22):
Combination of elevated and pleasurable stimuli in the brain with
poor judgment. And that's kind of a perfect storm for problems.
Speaker 41 (48:17):
What is the capacity of people who are otherwise strangers,
just connected by chatroom or internet connection to influence someone
into crime from fantasy? Some fantasies remain fantasies. Some fantasies graduate,
(48:52):
the website or the chat or the activity is no
longer interesting to them in the same.
Speaker 14 (48:58):
Way, but acting on it would be.
Speaker 40 (49:21):
The connection between fantasy online and subsequent acting out is
impossible to predict. You can't just assume that fantasy means
that they will enact and behavior, but you can also
assume that they will not.
Speaker 34 (49:40):
And I will be.
Speaker 40 (49:41):
The first to tell you in psychology and psychiatry, we
are not good at predicting violent behavior.
Speaker 2 (49:50):
The highly unusual facts of this case reflect the Internet
age in which we live. Valley had discussed kidnapping, torturing, raping, murdering,
cannibalizing women with twenty four individuals.
Speaker 3 (50:05):
At trial, the government.
Speaker 2 (50:06):
Conceded that twenty one of these communications there are nothing
more than fantasy roleplay. The government nonetheless contends that values
communications with Van Heist, Ali kannor Moody Blues reflect the
real kinetic conspiracy. Because the government did not offer sufficient
evidence to permit a reasonable jury to distinguish between the
valleys alleged real chats and he's conceded fantasy chats, the
(50:30):
jury's verdict on count one cannot stand. I like when
he says, when he ends with that, the jury's verdict
cannot stand, must not stand. I just hope you know,
the government doesn't appeal this, and this is officially over,
you know right now we have that looming over our
(50:50):
heads until this thing comes off. It's not over, you know.
Go to the beach, all right, make my cross country trip. Yeah,
(51:17):
those would be good times when it happens.
Speaker 13 (51:25):
Oh.
Speaker 41 (51:31):
Perhaps the most significant aspect of this story is that
Ballet's sexuality was hidden. If one has to wall off
an entire aspect of what turns them on, then one
has a fundamentally dishonest relationship with their partner, And when
(51:55):
you have a dishonest relationship with your partner, you may
be able to maintain appearances, but the story is never
going to end well.
Speaker 42 (52:06):
He always said that because he got home late, he
couldn't go right to sleep, so he could play video games,
watch TV, go on the internet for a couple of hours.
Speaker 9 (52:19):
Then after I got pregnant, it kept getting worse.
Speaker 42 (52:24):
He would stay up until three, four five in the morning,
or just not come to sleep in our bed. And
then all this really weird stuff started happening.
Speaker 2 (52:38):
She had installed spyware on the computer, and you know,
she found the chats everything that this case is about.
Speaker 3 (52:47):
She found it all.
Speaker 42 (52:49):
It logged every keystroke that is made on the computer
and every website that has visited and takes pictures every
five minutes or so of whatever is happening on the
computer screen. There were all of these websites that I'd
never seen, dark fetish, neet, sexy Amazons, dark fet motherless
fet Life. I mean, I know sn M is kind
(53:12):
of popular, like fifty Shades of Gray, you know, but
this seemed different. The girl on the front page was dead.
I noticed on one of the screen pictures that was
taken an email address that I didn't know about. So
(53:35):
I went to Yahoo Male and entered the password that
Ghila told me to use for everything. All of a sudden,
I was staring at pictures of my friends.
Speaker 9 (53:48):
Pictures of people we knew.
Speaker 18 (53:52):
There were thousands.
Speaker 3 (53:57):
She confounded me that morning and left with the baby.
Speaker 2 (54:02):
I didn't really know what she was planning on doing,
how long she was planning on staying.
Speaker 3 (54:09):
We did stay in touch throughout.
Speaker 41 (54:49):
Partners make question themselves and say, well, why didn't I
see this before? But we've had an unexpected proximity to
decide that he doesn't show to others, wouldn't even show
to his wife.
Speaker 42 (55:10):
I was going to be tied up by my feet
and my throat slit. They would have fun watching the
blood gush out of me over and over again. Just
kept saying that the suffering was for his enjoyment, that
he wanted to make it last as long as possible,
(55:31):
that he had no remorse.
Speaker 2 (55:39):
It was tough to listen to her, you know, talk
about our relationship.
Speaker 3 (55:47):
We were the guy for three years. I thought they
were three wonderful years. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (55:52):
I would do this at night, but it didn't affect
my personal life at all. It didn't affect my job,
it didn't affect my family. I was still the good husband,
I was still the good father. I was still doing
great at work.
Speaker 41 (56:16):
It's hard to say what to do with the input
of a law enforcement officer who's an accused sex offender.
Every person charged with a crime will deny, rationalize, and
distort facts and details in order to make his behavior acceptable.
(56:41):
I'm doing this on the internet, but you know, I'm
doing it because my wife is sleeping with our newborn.
Speaker 3 (56:47):
Oh, I get it, he gets it.
Speaker 2 (56:53):
As far as sleeping, I started talking to this guy
from England, so that that was It was just a
simple and banal is that the time difference. So I
would start chatting with him over there at eight in
the morning.
Speaker 3 (57:05):
Over here, it's two o'clock.
Speaker 2 (57:06):
Normally i'd be done by then, but yeah, now I'm
playing a game with this guy, and you know, so
I'd stay up a little later. And that's all it was.
(57:37):
Isn't that amazing?
Speaker 3 (57:38):
And it's the truth. The day she puts the Spirer
on this.
Speaker 2 (57:42):
The day I'm like, I'm moving on from this because,
like I said before, it was starting to affect my
family life, and that I was staying up later and
I didn't want. You know, I always said, once it starts,
so if it, whatever affects my family has gotta go.
Speaker 3 (58:00):
So I had to go and that day. If I'd
done it a day sooner, matter is what happened.
Speaker 2 (58:06):
Isn't that incredible? I told that to you know, my
lawyers indeed said, you know, I'm not making that up.
That's that's a god honest truth in my daughter's life.
I went on that day to delete everything. It's almost
like there's a higher power who said that this had
(58:28):
to happen, and maybe one day we'll know why.
Speaker 40 (58:40):
H You know, I honestly don't know about this guy.
(59:04):
This guy, I mean, this guy, I mean, I think
the fact that they got him off on that defense
is pretty lucky for him. It's pretty unusual to have
that kind of level of violent thought and fantasy and
to get off on the defense.
Speaker 3 (59:25):
I would not be shocked if he ends up.
Speaker 18 (59:27):
Back in jail. It disturbs me that mister Valley is out.
You know, do I worry for.
Speaker 41 (59:39):
Harm?
Speaker 14 (59:40):
Not really, but.
Speaker 18 (59:44):
You know, he's a disturbed man.
Speaker 19 (59:47):
We as the jury, were confident that from what we had,
what we were given we made the best decision we could,
and when it was overturned by the judge, I felt betrayed.
It was a very difficult decision. We were not in
agreement from the very beginning. Some felt more strongly that
(01:00:12):
he was guilty, others needed much more proof. Ultimately, the
weight of it was that this decision was going to
ruin this man's life. When the trial ended and the
judge read the charges before we even talked about anything,
(01:00:36):
and we wanted everyone to understand what the charges were
and what needed to be satisfied in order to convict
a legal use of his police database. The entire jury
agreed that he was guilty immediately, and it was just
(01:00:59):
the co conspiracy charge that we really needed to take
our time with. We dissected the chats that he had
with various people, and this particular line of chats with
Moody Blues was very different from the others. We collectively
(01:01:31):
as a jury felt the tone had changed. We read
them over and over and over again, and even the
people reading them had to stop at some point because
we just couldn't take it.
Speaker 18 (01:01:47):
It was very, very hard.
Speaker 19 (01:02:01):
He was taking the steps to take it to that
next level, to make his fantasy become real. How long
does one wait till one goes through with it? The
(01:02:33):
trip to Maryland was planned to meet this college friend,
and he was bringing his wife and his daughter along
on this trip. The defense maintained that this was just
a trip to visit a friend, but his chats with
Moody Blues indicated that he couldn't wait to go see her,
(01:02:56):
that he couldn't wait to think about what he was
going to do to her, and also find out where
she worked and get some more background information. It was
proven that he did drive by her office because he
(01:03:19):
had texted to her about was that you're building? Apparently
the building has some significance on this road. He did
meet her for brunch with his wife and his daughter,
and all seemed normal, just friends getting together and talking
(01:03:44):
and her meeting his wife and his daughter. A normal
person in real life comes back from a road trip.
They've been driving, they've been with their family and their baby,
and they come home and they unpack and they relax
(01:04:08):
and they figure out what they're gonna do for dinner.
Based on the timeline, this man went straight to his
computer and straight to his friend to chat, almost like
he was reporting in.
Speaker 18 (01:04:26):
And you could tell he was excited about it.
Speaker 19 (01:04:33):
The fact that he came back from this trip and
one of the first things he did was right to
Moody Blues, was enough to say that he had made
this trip, he had a purpose for this trip, he
satisfied that purpose, and he shared it with his conspirator,
and that I think ultimately led to his downfall.
Speaker 3 (01:05:23):
You know, we sort of expected this. I mean we
felt good. Maybe they wouldn't, but vicious buys some more time.
Speaker 13 (01:05:30):
Yeah, I look English.
Speaker 2 (01:05:43):
You know, I gave myself a couple hours just to
be down. But you know, if I'm down, they win.
So I don't want to let them win anything. You know,
I don't want to let them win anything, you know,
even in jail the rest of that all the time,
like if I'm down, the government's winning. Oh that's a lot, okay,
(01:06:09):
I al, I always overdo things. I guess I'm can
get used to having me at home.
Speaker 13 (01:06:22):
I think, get used to this.
Speaker 2 (01:06:24):
Really, I'm gonna be stuck in here for how many
more months? You know, I was looking at possible heat
going out this weekend.
Speaker 13 (01:06:42):
Yeah, I mean I thought it was over, and it's
not over.
Speaker 3 (01:06:48):
Doesn't mean they're gonna go through it and forget.
Speaker 2 (01:06:51):
They're smart people. They have to know I'm innocent. They
have to know there's no evidence. They have to know
they screwed up. Maybe they're thinking, how would it look
if we just dropped it. In a sense, they had
to go through with this just to save face. You know,
what are they going to do? Bs the Court of Appeals?
Now in paperwork they can bs a jury that can
(01:07:13):
ps the judges.
Speaker 22 (01:07:24):
My father always taught me to defend the underdog, and
the underdog is always the person who is on trial
with all the resources of the state, the police, the
prosecution being used against that person. I think juries have
(01:07:45):
often been unwilling to apply the presumption of innocence. When
I have a jury, the first question I ask is
if the evidence shows that the defendant probably did it,
did you convict and many of the jurisy, of course
we will. I say strike that DURA probably isn't enough.
(01:08:07):
You have to be willing to free somebody who will
probably do something bad and it was probably done something bad.
Probably just isn't enough. Better tend guilty go free than
one innocent to be wrongly confined. We just can't allow
our system to begin to err on the side of
(01:08:27):
putting people in jail if they might not commit crimes.
Speaker 2 (01:08:36):
They said that the line between fantasy and reality cross
and we had lunch with the girl in Maryland, So
that makes it seem like shit, Like when Gil had
a lunch with this girl, you know, maybe he was
thinking about something as far as coinciding with the chat.
(01:08:58):
I knew, like, yeah, I had the chat, but you know,
I was with my wife and daughter. Nothing ever happened
with the brunch.
Speaker 3 (01:09:06):
They made the whole weekend out to be a surveillance episode.
I went down.
Speaker 2 (01:09:10):
Friday night, I'd I saw five people that weekend. We
did things pad Lan as a family down in Maryland.
Speaker 3 (01:09:17):
And the whole weekend was about surveillance. I mean, it's
just in this of the database, right.
Speaker 11 (01:09:30):
When the prosecution makes a big deal of him using
this computer to look up information about these women. Yes,
it's a violation, and yes it's a crime, But looking
at the timeline between when he actually did those searches
and when he was having chats about those women with
other people on the dark fetish network, it's not exactly
(01:09:53):
clear that he's planning anything. They might have had more
(01:10:18):
of a case if he looked up that information and
then five minutes later, there's a record of him emailing
somebody from the Dark Fetish Network saying, here's the address.
But he didn't even give anybody on the Dark Fetish
Network their addresses.
Speaker 12 (01:10:31):
He didn't even give them their last names.
Speaker 11 (01:10:36):
There's one potentially very telling moment in the chats where
Moody Blue says, what's her address.
Speaker 12 (01:10:43):
And Gil says, I can't do that. I can't give
you that. Suddenly the bubble bursts.
Speaker 11 (01:10:55):
This is Gil googling someone he has the hots for,
only instead of Google, using the police computer because he's
at work and board and says, oh, I have the
hots for Kimberly. I'm going to check out the information
and the police database for her.
Speaker 3 (01:11:10):
And so he does.
Speaker 11 (01:11:12):
And that's sick and creepy and weird. But is this
the action of a guy who's planning and conspiring a kidnapping?
Speaker 23 (01:11:21):
The prosecution had to convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt,
the highest standard in the law, he actually was agreeing
to commit the crime of kidnapping women, And here in
this case, I don't think they did.
Speaker 9 (01:11:36):
There might be a tendency to want.
Speaker 23 (01:11:37):
To punish people for who we think they are as.
Speaker 18 (01:11:41):
Opposed to what they've actually done.
Speaker 9 (01:11:44):
And so this could be a case where the jury.
Speaker 23 (01:11:46):
Heard the evidence and thought, I don't maybe think he
was going to do it this time, but I'm worried
he might do it in the future.
Speaker 9 (01:11:54):
I'm worried about what kind of person he is. I
don't like this guy.
Speaker 18 (01:11:57):
I think he's creepy.
Speaker 9 (01:11:58):
And so the you know, the way they resolve that
tension is to convict.
Speaker 19 (01:12:04):
Well, we were convicting someone on what he wanted to do,
not what he did, So we had to believe that
he was going in that direction to actually commit a crime.
It's easier to make a decision when you have fact
(01:12:24):
beyond a shadow of a doubt reasonable doubt, and there
was not anything that was fully and completely compelling.
Speaker 18 (01:12:35):
We had to understand this man through these chats.
Speaker 23 (01:12:52):
When the police got this information, absolutely they were right
to act on it. No one in the right mind,
I think, would suggest when his wife came and said,
look what I have these disturbing chats and my husband,
by the way, is a police officer with some power,
that they should.
Speaker 9 (01:13:08):
Have said, you know, go home, man, No big deal. Right,
What should they have done.
Speaker 23 (01:13:12):
They should have initiated an investigation. It could have been
as simple as an undercover agent signing up for an
account on darkfetishnet dot com and trying to engage him
and make real plans.
Speaker 11 (01:13:28):
Since Stale's conviction and since it's been tossed out, there's
been movement on other cases related to the Dark Fetish
network where the FEDS took the extra step of creating
a sting operation, and there have been people who've been
convicted after they met with agents to plan the kidnapping.
Speaker 20 (01:13:49):
One of them, Ash actually went so far as to
create a kit. He started collecting items that one might
use in a real abduction and torture scenario. He had
needles and handcuffs and speculums. He even went and he
(01:14:10):
bought a stun gun. You can see that they took
this so much farther than Gilded. It makes you realize
that there is this whole so many steps before you
get to actually plunging out of a car at someone
and trying to hurt them.
Speaker 21 (01:14:33):
Some very reasonable people could come to the conclusion that
unless and until he's in a car with the rope
and the chloroform headed to wherever Victim III lives.
Speaker 3 (01:14:45):
It's not enough.
Speaker 21 (01:14:47):
Some reasonable people could also say even that's not enough.
It's not enough until he gets to the doorstep and
actually starts walking up the steps and is about to
hit the doorbell and say Hi, it's Gilberto.
Speaker 3 (01:15:02):
Can I come up?
Speaker 21 (01:15:05):
And some people would probably even quite reasonably conclude that
we really don't know what he's going to do in
that apartment.
Speaker 16 (01:15:19):
There is always reasonable doubt about whether or not someone
is going to take a particular action. We don't know,
right and police officers don't have some magical psychic wand
that allows them to know either. We don't want to
(01:15:41):
give the government the ability to decide what fantasies meet
the thought police's bar for acceptability.
Speaker 18 (01:15:52):
That bar is rightly high.
Speaker 16 (01:15:56):
Look, if the First Amendment protects someone fantasying about violently
raping and killing and eating a woman, it's going to
protect pretty much anything you're thinking about. And that's what
principles mean. They make us uncomfortable, and we apply them regardless.
Speaker 2 (01:16:26):
We're going down support from my sentencing for a misdemeanor.
The big news out of today will be whether or
not this house arrest is over number two is a
government going to go through with their appeal.
Speaker 11 (01:16:56):
The interesting thing about what's happening with Gil now is
that he no longer is just the cannibal cop. He's
patient zero in the thought police epidemic that might sweep
the nation. We're all determined to try and stop horrible
tragedies before they actually happen, and we feel like we
(01:17:18):
can do it that all we have to do in
the future is monitor the right things and set up
enough cameras and do enough computer surveillance.
Speaker 12 (01:17:31):
But to me, that is an extraordinary assumption to be making.
Speaker 23 (01:17:40):
For if we had an MRI that could read your mind,
would we want to comb through society and find the
true deviance among us who think these deviant thoughts and
really mean to execute them, or would execute them.
Speaker 9 (01:17:56):
In a perfect environment.
Speaker 23 (01:18:00):
In science fiction like Minority Report, where they talk about
pre crime, that's a dystopic vision. And I think that's
because when you think about it, it's often hard for
any individual person to even know themselves the line between
what they're imagining and what's real.
Speaker 9 (01:18:20):
It's part of the mystery of humanity.
Speaker 43 (01:18:38):
You know, There's been a lot said about me when
these allegations came out, and you know that's not who
I really am. That's every People who know me the
best know that, and I'm ready to show people who
I really am.
Speaker 3 (01:18:53):
That's it.
Speaker 12 (01:18:54):
Could you give us some idea what got you involved
in the.
Speaker 10 (01:19:00):
Issues in the first.
Speaker 43 (01:19:01):
Place, And I'm not gonna comment on that.
Speaker 1 (01:19:05):
I know.
Speaker 11 (01:19:06):
One of the most troubling gray areas of this case
is that most of us don't understand why someone would
act on an impulse like this.
Speaker 12 (01:19:18):
I don't think the jurors, I don't think the media.
Speaker 11 (01:19:20):
I don't think many people at all could really look
into his heart and really understand Gil as a person.
Is he a harmless, teddy bear of a guy or
is he a nefarious master criminal?
Speaker 3 (01:19:35):
I really don't know.
Speaker 42 (01:19:40):
For at this beautiful thing right here, I think part
of you wants me back, but the other part of
you wants to kill me. I don't know which Gil
is real. I'm afraid I don't know you at all.
Speaker 32 (01:20:02):
What makes somebody an ethical human being isn't what they think,
but what they choose to do with the thoughts. Somebody
can be having the most dark, depraved thoughts, but if
they don't do anything about them or find an outlet
that is entirely harmless, then that doesn't stop them being
(01:20:26):
a decent human being. And in the gap between thought
and action, that's where people actually discover what kind of
human being they are. And I think people have to
be allowed to make that discovery and then live with
the consequences.
Speaker 2 (01:20:45):
There's no news yet with the appeal. They haven't submitted
anything yet. Today's a deadline, so I guess they have
until eleven fifty nine. They'll probably wait till eleven fifty
But I got an appeal, I.
Speaker 14 (01:21:07):
Mean, ROB thought about it.
Speaker 3 (01:21:33):
I don't want to get my hopes up, but I
ain't mentioned it in court.
Speaker 11 (01:21:38):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (01:21:39):
I haven't filed it yet, but I don't want to
get my hopes up. It's already been such a good day.
You know, this really could be over time completely.
Speaker 3 (01:22:01):
They haven't until midnight, so we're waiting till midnight. Then
that's it. They never asked one more time, and that,
you know, the thing better be dismissed.
Speaker 2 (01:22:20):
Nothing we see it. TikTok, TikTok. Let's go midnight, go on.
(01:22:41):
What are an ending it would be?
Speaker 20 (01:22:42):
You know.
Speaker 3 (01:22:44):
Today it would all end. I'm you know, the supervision.
Speaker 2 (01:22:49):
I'm not worried about It's not like I'm gonna go
out and commit a crime or anything like that. I
have no desire, not the slightest inkle to get back
on any fetish website.
Speaker 3 (01:23:04):
Those days are gone. Nothing will be hanging over my
head anymore.
Speaker 13 (01:23:24):
I fell asleep and I woke up at after twelve.
I'm it's quiet down there. My heart starts raising concern.
Speaker 3 (01:23:31):
This is concerning me, though I don't know what this is.
Speaker 2 (01:23:42):
I'm on something called cases Selection Table, and we're on
the second circuit for sure.
Speaker 3 (01:23:54):
Yeah, I see it. Yeah, all right, but they file
it's around seven point thirty. Really, yeah, we were looking
at the wrong thing. I was expecting it. It's the
(01:24:33):
same arguments, you know that I conducted surveillance.
Speaker 13 (01:24:37):
Oh god, yeah, so they really make it.
Speaker 3 (01:24:41):
I attempted to establish trusts.
Speaker 13 (01:24:47):
It's laughable.
Speaker 3 (01:24:54):
I'm not worried, don't you know. Don't worry about it.
M today was you know, enough of a good day.
You know, I'm not worried at all. All Right, I'll stop,
I'll stop by tomorrow, right, all.
Speaker 2 (01:25:12):
Right, all right, see, all right, let's hope my cell
(01:26:03):
phone is not seven hundred yards from somebody I knew
in high school. Everything sort of overwhelms me sometimes with
the appeal coming and the notoriety that's now surrounding my life.
Speaker 3 (01:26:30):
Well, sometimes I feel like someone's watching me.
Speaker 2 (01:26:35):
But the first couple of weeks I was out, I
realized that no one was really recognizing me. So I
started getting more and more comfortable going out, and I
thought the next step was to get to dating again.
Speaker 3 (01:26:52):
It's been a long time, you know.
Speaker 2 (01:26:53):
I think sometimes I'm craving a little you know, I'm
creating some companionship.
Speaker 3 (01:26:58):
There's nothing wrong with that.
Speaker 2 (01:27:03):
If I do go, you know, out with a girl,
at what point in a dating process do I bring
this whole thing up, she either be you know, run
for the hills, or she'd be.
Speaker 3 (01:27:18):
Somewhat curious interested.
Speaker 2 (01:27:21):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (01:27:21):
There have to be people out there who are interested.
Speaker 2 (01:27:27):
But some people are gonna think I should be locked
up for the rest of my life. There's no getting
around that I made a bad mistake, the really bad mistake.
But you know, it's not going to cost me the
rest of my life.
Speaker 3 (01:28:02):
Sho
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