A Mother's Secret - Gail Eastwood-Ritchey - ‘Geauga’s Child’

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to your top true crime hob for the variety
in episodes you're looking for.

Speaker 2 (00:05):
Enjoy real recording, good listening to your share though us.

Speaker 3 (00:13):
I just want to see if we can talk to
you for a couple of months. Yeah, okay, do you
have any idea what we want to talk to you about,
because I kind.

Speaker 4 (00:23):
Of think you might.

Speaker 5 (00:24):
Well, my parents said that you were.

Speaker 3 (00:26):
At their house, and what do you think that's about?

Speaker 6 (00:33):
Yeah?

Speaker 7 (00:33):
What about a baby that was left?

Speaker 3 (00:40):
Can you tell us about it. We're not here to
judge your gail. We don't know what was going on
at the time. We don't want to speculate either, okay,
So I don't think I think you want us to speculate.

(01:02):
We're not here to arrest you, okay. We are here
to take your DNA, okay, and we would like for
you to tell us you're side of the story, cause
we'd like to know. As of right now, you're not
under arrest. You're not gonna be arrested today, but we
wanna know what was going on. And I think after

(01:23):
twenty six years, it's time, don't you. It's had to
be weighing on you.

Speaker 7 (01:38):
Should we go inside?

Speaker 3 (01:39):
Well, what we'd like to do is get your DNA, okay,
and then we would like for you to come back
to our our sheriff's office so that we can talk.
You're not being arrested, okay, but we need to sit
down and we need to hear your side.

Speaker 6 (01:55):
Of the story.

Speaker 3 (01:58):
Okay, okay, alright. So I'm gonna get my stuff real quick.
We're gonna take your DNA here. I have a signed
search warrant from a guy I'll be coming. Come and
please judge mm okay, and I will give you a
copy of that long you will have a copy for
you to keep. The The DNA process is a very

(02:21):
non evasive process. I'm just I'm sure your parents probably
told you just uh swipe a Q tip on the
inside of your mouth. We'll collect it real quick, and
then we'll go back to the sheriff's office. At some
point today we'll we'll bring you back here.

Speaker 6 (02:35):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (02:39):
Alright, So let me grab my stuff real quick and
I'll be right back.

Speaker 4 (02:42):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (02:42):
And obviously our car is right down the street. I
have all the all the stuff to grab that stuff.

Speaker 5 (02:49):
I let my employer know that I'm not gonna be
into work.

Speaker 1 (02:51):
That's where I was going, uh, just just want Minna
right right now. I don't want you to make any
phone calls.

Speaker 5 (02:56):
In the morment.

Speaker 4 (02:57):
Okay, I was just gonna text her.

Speaker 8 (02:59):
Okay, where's your phone?

Speaker 5 (03:00):
It's right here on my tip.

Speaker 8 (03:02):
Okay, where do you work?

Speaker 5 (03:10):
A marine laundering?

Speaker 6 (03:11):
In school? A dance.

Speaker 8 (03:36):
All right, yep, that's fine.

Speaker 1 (03:40):
And then I'm actually gonna just hold your phone just
for officer safety reasons. Okay, we'll explain that to you
in a second.

Speaker 5 (03:47):
Close my daughter.

Speaker 8 (03:49):
Sure you said you're a a dance instructor.

Speaker 5 (04:18):
Now I'm the author's younger.

Speaker 8 (04:20):
Oh it's a dance school though.

Speaker 7 (04:22):
Okay, do you wanna give you a copy.

Speaker 6 (04:24):
Of the warrant? Okay? Said your your copy of the school?

Speaker 3 (04:44):
Where's your copy of the warrant that is signed by
the cops that coming and coming please judge?

Speaker 6 (04:48):
Okay, that's sorry.

Speaker 3 (05:10):
To do this right here, but you have to understand that,
uh weren't a signe here at Taga.

Speaker 4 (05:14):
County, so we need to execute again Tiger County.

Speaker 3 (05:22):
The real subject you have with.

Speaker 7 (06:00):
Where did you say you worked at? Your telling the
sergeant youre in Monder in Stold, Oh where's it at?
Do you think the works make feel goes.

Speaker 1 (06:10):
She just text her boss and just let her know
she's something came up.

Speaker 7 (06:14):
So you wrote that on the inside of your let's
say it, you say in the other side of the

(06:48):
what just does it? Just fut some skin cells from
an outside of your mouth?

Speaker 2 (06:59):
Alright, alright, we're gonna go ahead and jump in the car.

Speaker 7 (07:18):
Then we'll give you a ride. Okay, if you.

Speaker 2 (07:20):
Wanna jump in on the side back here, they'll start
doing something on that.

Speaker 1 (07:24):
Yeah, you don't have any nice weapons coppers for or
anything like that, do you.

Speaker 6 (07:28):
Okay, that's sorry, makes sense.

Speaker 7 (07:32):
A little dirty there, but we have a seat.

Speaker 6 (07:37):
Check your all.

Speaker 3 (07:38):
I mean you want to take her first?

Speaker 8 (07:40):
Yeah, because I'm just gonna put your person in the back.

Speaker 4 (07:44):
Could you ever thought of water? Is there anything else
we can get your gail? You don't like that, There's
some fishes there in the box and we'll be right
back with you. Okay when you pose the door, just
to give you a price or hum.

Speaker 5 (08:31):
Your coat.

Speaker 4 (08:32):
J alright, were have my partner that's coming in? Oh right,
got you? What is there anything else where can get
your team? You to use the facilities or anything that you'll.

Speaker 6 (08:50):
Know.

Speaker 4 (08:51):
H're sure you're Okay.

Speaker 5 (08:52):
There's some issues there for you as we any kid
you uh.

Speaker 4 (08:57):
At the house or our intentions at this point not
to rest your non under rest okay, and uh, we
would like to give your side of the story, though
we just didn't wanna do it there in your house
and the kids come in or anything. That's just kind
of a good situation obviously with the topic at hand.
But I do wouldn't need to, you know, because we
brought you back here. You know, I wanna go over

(09:19):
a couple of days. You know, again, at this point,
you're not under arrest. Okay, you are free to leave. Okay,
So I'm gonna just read you right real quick. You
have the right to remain silent. Anythn't you say again,
we'll be used against you in quirt a lot? Do
you have the right time attorney? We'll provide one free
free before any question. If you desire, you could stop
answering questions or anything. Do you understand that I do? And

(09:43):
with that being said, we do appreciate your your cooperation.
You know, obviously you're an indicator that your parents had
had told you that we had been out, so I'm
sure that you had kind of knew that this day
was coming, Uh, that we were gonna be coming out
to talk to you. And you know that we we
got their DNA, and which is you know, what ultimately

(10:03):
led us to you. And what we would like to
do is, w We're not here to judge you. We
don't know what was going on in your life at
the time. You know that, you know, we probably we
weren't as many options for for people at the time,
you know. And uh, but with that being said, we'd
like to, you know, get your side of what happened.

Speaker 5 (10:35):
So at that time, my husband and I were dating,
We were sexually active. They did use contraceptive but apparently
one didn't work. M. I did not know I was
pregnant at the time. Okay, I still had my monstual cycles.

Speaker 4 (11:02):
M where there from years.

Speaker 5 (11:09):
And then my monstrual cycles and that stopping.

Speaker 4 (11:13):
Kay.

Speaker 5 (11:14):
They don't know how long they were that you need
to know that.

Speaker 4 (11:21):
I I don't know, but at some point during the pregnancy.

Speaker 5 (11:24):
They stopped it. Yes, it didn't stop.

Speaker 4 (11:31):
Do you know about when that would have been?

Speaker 5 (11:33):
They don't in relation? I mean was it winter time?

Speaker 4 (11:37):
When was it? I mean, is there anything you could
kind of put to it that would tell you is
the about when most mountrial cycles stopped.

Speaker 5 (11:52):
I wanna say about three months before the baby was
actually born. Okay, and I honestly do not remember the
date for the day when baby was born. I do
know it was the winter. I was at work. I

(12:21):
was a nanny for a family and shake your heights.
I was waiting for them to.

Speaker 4 (12:30):
Come home from school.

Speaker 5 (12:32):
I hadn't been feeling well at all that day. The
next thing I knew I was giving birth to a baby.
It was a toilet. I didn't know what we kids

(13:04):
had yatten home from school yet.

Speaker 9 (13:07):
Hm.

Speaker 5 (13:13):
The lady, I think it was.

Speaker 10 (13:17):
Baby had a baby. I have no idea what the
sex was. I never looked at it.

Speaker 5 (13:43):
I just get upped like her.

Speaker 4 (13:48):
Place.

Speaker 9 (13:48):
Did have the trunk that we look out room?

Speaker 4 (14:13):
Was the baby still in a bag at that time?
M Did you put it in something else? What was
it bad?

Speaker 5 (14:21):
Like your goach?

Speaker 4 (14:22):
Bet? Okay?

Speaker 5 (14:24):
Yep. They went on with the rest of the evening
with the kids, and then I went home.

Speaker 4 (14:48):
Where were you living at the time.

Speaker 5 (14:50):
Uh, my parents? I lived in Hollwich there, yees. I
wasn't sure what to do. No one knew then we

(15:22):
had and I don't know the time frame from when
to when, but camps that were associated with Quininius out here.

Speaker 4 (15:43):
I came.

Speaker 5 (15:45):
Out with our youth group for a weekend, and I
I didn't I got in my car, I left the

(16:08):
camp for a while. I got in my car.

Speaker 4 (16:12):
From Camp coin here. Yeah, I had a trouble sitting there.
I thought it.

Speaker 5 (16:16):
Yes, I got in my car and just drove. I
don't know where I ended up. And I just ended

(16:36):
up stopping on a road. I don't know which road
I took. The bag was a trunk and I laid
it in the woods.

Speaker 4 (16:56):
I didn't know t two about how far from the camp?
Or do you remember that?

Speaker 5 (17:07):
I I have no idea. I I really don't know.
I I don't other than driving you to the camp,
I really don't.

Speaker 4 (17:21):
You couldn't know too far cause you didn't know the road.
So how would you get back?

Speaker 5 (17:24):
Right? I I guess.

Speaker 4 (17:29):
Was there anybody with you in the car?

Speaker 5 (17:30):
No? No, nothing, probably was by myself.

Speaker 4 (17:44):
About how far off the road? Do you do you
remember you went like with with the bag, like how
far from the road where you would have went? Or
was there anything specific by there?

Speaker 5 (17:57):
Nothing specific?

Speaker 4 (17:59):
No, nothing that seems about to you or anything.

Speaker 5 (18:04):
No, Uh, I just I remember stopping on the road.
There was a lot of snow. I I I do
you remember a lot of snow? And I walked in

(18:29):
as far as I could and then I left the back.

Speaker 4 (18:39):
Did you ever follow or read any stories or anything
you know in the news or seeing news clipping, you know,
stories or anything like that about.

Speaker 5 (18:48):
Anything that didn't No, I they did not know the
baby was found?

Speaker 6 (18:54):
Kay?

Speaker 4 (18:55):
At what point did do you know that the baby
was found? Did any was there? Was it recently or
was it a long time ago? Or no?

Speaker 5 (19:04):
I you were and my parents.

Speaker 4 (19:07):
I know that's your first son that you've known that
the baby was found.

Speaker 5 (19:11):
Case that a baby was found.

Speaker 4 (19:14):
Right now, getting back to uh, you said you were
at this this family's house and chack Or Heights when
the baby was born, right, yeah, mkay? Do you remember
their name or where they lived at?

Speaker 5 (19:32):
They do? Okay?

Speaker 4 (19:34):
What was their name?

Speaker 5 (19:36):
I'd rather not.

Speaker 4 (19:40):
And why is that? Just said?

Speaker 5 (19:43):
I pay time?

Speaker 4 (19:45):
Well, you you canna understand that we know we need
to kind of verify some things. And I'm not trying
to do a hard time, but you know, I obviously
what you've told us that we need to go back
and try to verify some of those things. It's been
a long time, so.

Speaker 5 (19:59):
You know.

Speaker 4 (19:59):
And and you said it was during the week correct,
because the kids weren't home from school yet. That is correct, right,
So you were kind of a nanny in the afternoon.

Speaker 5 (20:08):
It was a nanny all day, all day okay.

Speaker 4 (20:10):
But he said it some some of the kids we
went to school.

Speaker 5 (20:13):
There were three children, there.

Speaker 4 (20:15):
Was two children, and they would go after school, yes,
And then what time would they come home from school?

Speaker 5 (20:23):
Three three thirty and you.

Speaker 4 (20:26):
Would stay till about.

Speaker 5 (20:27):
What time mm six usually six.

Speaker 4 (20:31):
Six o'clock and then you would go and that's when
you went home from there. Yeah, okay, So do you
remember what day it was? Was it Thursday day or Friday?

Speaker 5 (20:43):
I honestly don't remember the day or the month.

Speaker 4 (20:47):
But you said you went to a weekend camp.

Speaker 5 (20:49):
At that weekend, right, And I don't know if it
was that weekend. It may it's been a whole week
okay before I I don't remember.

Speaker 4 (21:00):
So you don't remember if the if the baby was
in your trunk for.

Speaker 5 (21:04):
Like a week or just a couple of days, could
have been.

Speaker 4 (21:06):
It could have been as long as a week possibly
yet okay. And you said that you were in the
in the bathroom of the home, yes, when the baby
was born, but but nobody else was home at the time. No, No,
you were by yourself. Yeah, okay, obviously there would have
been you know, the after birth and the umbilical cord.

(21:30):
How were you able to you know, cut the umbilical cord.

Speaker 5 (21:36):
And as you didn't cut the umbilical cord no, no, okay,
I think you were born.

Speaker 4 (21:42):
So you left this basically everything attached to the baby.
It did the the after birth, everything was was still
attached to the baby. And obviously you know that, Uh,
the baby was born a lot life.

Speaker 11 (22:01):
I I don't don't remember. I don't recall it ever crying, mkay.

Speaker 4 (22:08):
But it's not like it was still born or anything.
I mean that the Corners report shows that it it
actually was breathing.

Speaker 5 (22:15):
Okay.

Speaker 4 (22:15):
So at some point you, I mean, there had to
be some something kind of that you heard or or saw,
and the baby had any moving or.

Speaker 5 (22:27):
It. It's possible. I I don't I don't remember, m
I I remember picking it up and placing it in
the bag.

Speaker 4 (22:37):
Did it actually fall into the toilet when you when
you give birth. Yes, so everything just kind of fell
into the toilet, yes, okay, a note onto the floor
or anything on there? No, okay, So the baby was
actually in the.

Speaker 5 (22:49):
Toilet, yes, okay.

Speaker 4 (22:52):
And then where did you get the bag from and
all that that?

Speaker 5 (22:57):
Believe it was under the kitchen sink in.

Speaker 4 (23:00):
The kitchen saying, so just a normal trash bag. Yeah.
Do you remember what color it was or anything?

Speaker 7 (23:07):
Uh?

Speaker 4 (23:07):
Don't say. It could be clear white, black.

Speaker 5 (23:10):
I believe it was black.

Speaker 4 (23:11):
Okay, It's like a dark colored trash bag.

Speaker 5 (23:13):
Yes.

Speaker 4 (23:14):
And everything was still attached to the baby when you
were sing ye? Yes, alright when you put it into
the bag? Was it still moving or anything?

Speaker 5 (23:22):
I I don't recall it moving.

Speaker 4 (23:24):
You don't recall no, okay. You said you were able
to to clean the bathroom up prior to the kids you.

Speaker 12 (23:31):
Were nanny and returning home, yes, okay. And did you
after after you put the baby into that bag, did
you immediately take it out to the car or was
there some time laps when you were cleaning.

Speaker 11 (23:45):
I probably cleaned and that and took it out, Okay,
I I don't I don't remember, Uh, what.

Speaker 4 (23:56):
I understand. It's been twenty six years.

Speaker 5 (23:58):
You don't any I know any of'em? Remember what year
it was born?

Speaker 12 (24:01):
Okoyoud you y if you say you say you know
it was some time between when the kids would have
left for school and when they returned from school.

Speaker 5 (24:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (24:12):
When did you marry your husband?

Speaker 5 (24:16):
Ninety four?

Speaker 4 (24:17):
Right? So it was prior to that? Correct?

Speaker 11 (24:19):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (24:19):
Okay? And when did you move into the house that
you current?

Speaker 5 (24:23):
September of ninety three?

Speaker 4 (24:24):
Okay? And was it prior to that that that this
baby was born? A yes, cause you were still live
in that home? Correct?

Speaker 5 (24:34):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (24:35):
Did did you move right in with Mark into that home? Yes,
in September ninety three? Yees? In your positive? It was
before that? Yeah? Okay. Were you at that camp at all,
you know, during those those couple of years or were
you you in Mark involved in that camp or anything

(24:56):
during that time frame? Oh? You said you went to a.

Speaker 5 (24:58):
K u A a weekend camp right right with the
believer in chaperone some of our youth group in on
that church.

Speaker 4 (25:09):
Was Mark there as well? No?

Speaker 5 (25:11):
No?

Speaker 4 (25:15):
So Mark, was he ever involved with the camp out there?

Speaker 5 (25:18):
Yes? He was?

Speaker 4 (25:19):
Okay at that age or later on in life.

Speaker 5 (25:22):
Or uh well not? I mean he went as a camper.
He didn't go as a He wasn't never a counselor.

Speaker 4 (25:33):
So he would have went in when he was younger
than correct?

Speaker 5 (25:36):
What what?

Speaker 4 (25:36):
What did what age?

Speaker 5 (25:37):
Do?

Speaker 4 (25:37):
They basically age out of being a camper?

Speaker 5 (25:40):
Seniors?

Speaker 4 (25:41):
You went in high school, So once you graduate high school,
you're no longer in attendee. You can choose to be
a counselor, right, okay, alright, so but when you graduate
high school you can still kind of go that summer correct, yes, alright,
so and then after that you're kind of uh aged
out if you yeah, and then you can come back

(26:02):
to the councilor or something like that.

Speaker 5 (26:04):
Yes, okay.

Speaker 4 (26:10):
How long before you moved into that house? Do you
say that maybe he was born? Was it months? Weeks? Years? Well?

Speaker 5 (26:17):
It was the winter.

Speaker 4 (26:19):
It was in winter. So was it like that winter
before you moved in? Or was there a couple of
winters before?

Speaker 5 (26:38):
Hum? M, maybe the January of that year?

Speaker 4 (26:47):
I I don't so do you think it was that
year in ninety three when you moved into the house.

Speaker 5 (26:53):
I I don't. I don't remember what year it was, Okay,
but at school, you know, I guess it could have
been at the end of ninety two, maybe December ninety two,
but so kids would have been home for Christmas break,

(27:15):
so it must have been January of ninety three, January ninety.

Speaker 4 (27:23):
Three somewhere around there that the baby was actually born. Yeah, okay,
were you active sexuary with anybody on the sites Mark prior.

Speaker 5 (27:30):
To or what was not?

Speaker 6 (27:31):
No?

Speaker 4 (27:31):
So your your confident that Mark is is the.

Speaker 5 (27:35):
Father or father is? Mkay?

Speaker 4 (27:41):
Now getting back to the like, how the baby was
born and placed in the bag, the uh umbilical cord
was caught, it was not still attached.

Speaker 5 (27:55):
I did not cut it.

Speaker 4 (27:56):
Okay, Well, how did that umbilical cord get cut?

Speaker 5 (28:00):
I I don't know. I didn't. I didn't cut it.

Speaker 4 (28:04):
You didn't cut it?

Speaker 13 (28:05):
No, you're positive that I am?

Speaker 4 (28:08):
Ka. I mean, obviously we're talking about twenty of years,
so there's you know, as you said, did you.

Speaker 5 (28:12):
Know it's some things that you're not real Yes, I understand.

Speaker 4 (28:17):
But there's no possible way that you cut that in
vocal cord.

Speaker 5 (28:22):
I M almost certain I didn't.

Speaker 4 (28:28):
Is it possible or are you positive that you ain't
cut that in vocal cord? Cause there's a couple of

(28:48):
things that you, you, you, You've told us a lot,
but there's a couple of things that I am kind
of struggling with. And some of that is, is you know,
to do with the baby, because you know that a
full autopsy was done, that that that the baby was found.
Obviously that's corner and your local cord was cut, and
the corners of your report can show that the that

(29:10):
the baby was born alive, okay, and that the baby
had taken breast okay. So that tells me that the
baby was moving and and there had to be some
type of screaming or something that you heard or saw.
And I don't know if it's just something that you
don't wanna remember. Obviously due to the circumstances, it's.

Speaker 5 (29:31):
Possible, but I I really don't remember it ever making
a sound.

Speaker 4 (29:38):
How about in the bag? Was it still moving around
in the bag or had it kind of maybe drowned
in the toilet or was it still kind of moving
around in the bag? I can tell you it didn't
drown drowned in the toilet because it didn't have water
in its lungs.

Speaker 5 (29:55):
H So no, I don't think it stayed in the
toilet long before I put it in the bag.

Speaker 4 (30:05):
So, but even in the bag, it's it's got some
oxygen in there, it's it's it's breathing, it's taking some breasts,
it's probably moving, it's it's gotta be making some kind
of noise.

Speaker 5 (30:20):
I really don't remember it making noise. I really don't.

Speaker 4 (30:27):
Do you remember the bag making any noise of the
bag around.

Speaker 5 (30:30):
Crinkling, hm, not that I'm aware. I suppose it what
could have been when I put it in.

Speaker 4 (30:41):
The car, But either in the toilet or when you
quickly put it in the bag, you have to be
making some kind of noise they're moving around or I
ultimately you do it to your condition at the time,
your intention was no matter what, you were going to

(31:03):
keep this baby.

Speaker 5 (31:05):
I didn't know what to do.

Speaker 4 (31:07):
You didn't what to do, but I under I I mean,
because of those circumstances, you didn't know what to do.
Was it because you were young, because you weren't married,
you know, you were afraid to tell your parents, and
understand your Baptist.

Speaker 5 (31:22):
It was I'm definitely afraid to tell my parents. My
father was very eminant about not having children before you're married,
because his sister and nieces all had children and didn't

(31:46):
want that. I could understand that stereotype.

Speaker 4 (31:53):
What else was going through your mind at the time?
Why you why you said that, you know, I'm uh,
you know, I didn't know what to do. I'm not
keeping this baby. What else was going through your mind
at the time.

Speaker 5 (32:04):
Well, I think part of it was more just where
I was at and worried about the kids coming home, and.

Speaker 4 (32:14):
I didn't know what to do. But you had known
for some time that you were pregnant, at least a
couple of months when you were mentioned, and and you
were afraid to tell your parents that you were pregnant,
so you had known.

Speaker 5 (32:30):
Them for some time that you're president, So.

Speaker 4 (32:35):
At least for a couple of months. Correct, You can
say that you you said initially you didn't know you
were pregnant, and you were start having a mental strikeles and.

Speaker 5 (32:41):
And that does happen. But I and I also, I
think because of that, I didn't know how far along
I was.

Speaker 4 (32:53):
But you hadn't told anybody. They had not and you
weren't sure what to do, and it was not and
I mean it was was I mean, did did you
intend on having the baby? Or I mean, what were
your intentions should it kind of come U unexpectedly that day,
But it sounds like you you had made your mind

(33:15):
up that you know you weren't in the right spot
at the time. You weren't telling anybody this was kind
of what you were planning on doing. For lack of
better words, I I suppose, I mean, how'd you pun on?
I I mean, w what were your plans when you
found out you're pregnant?

Speaker 5 (33:35):
And I I I don't, I don't know, I I
don't know what alright, I don't remember. They don't know
what my intentions were.

Speaker 4 (33:49):
M I mean, were you gonna I I mean it
at least for some period of time. You you know
you're pregnant and you're gonna you're gonna keep this baby,
or you're gonna tell Mark at some point? Were you
just gonna get rid of it? And anythink it never happened.

Speaker 5 (34:11):
I'm I'm not sure. I've never been.

Speaker 11 (34:17):
Never been good with confrontation, so I think I've always
tend to heed things to myself to avoid.

Speaker 5 (34:36):
Confrontations. I'm so, I'm I'm not sure what. I don't
know if I ever had a plan or what I
was gonna do, or.

Speaker 4 (34:55):
If I don't.

Speaker 5 (34:56):
I don't remember.

Speaker 4 (34:57):
What do you think Mark would have said if you
would have told 'em me the time? I'm not sure
that you thought about that, like when you were gonna
tell Mark or when the baby came.

Speaker 5 (35:09):
I don't.

Speaker 13 (35:09):
I don't even know if I thought about it, I
I think if I don't know, I don't know if.

Speaker 5 (35:24):
I was gonna tell him or.

Speaker 4 (35:36):
Did you think there was gonna be confrontation with him
when you told him?

Speaker 5 (35:45):
Not in a in a bad way. But I've I've
always had trouble dealing with things that situations, M.

Speaker 4 (36:19):
I. I. I don't know how long had you and
Mark should have been dating when this happened. When when
did you meet Mark?

Speaker 5 (36:29):
We went to church together, so I'd known him most
of high school.

Speaker 4 (36:37):
And then.

Speaker 5 (36:41):
When they say I liked some when I was sixteen,
do you remember that? And then we separated for a while,
and then I want to say when I was seventeen?

Speaker 4 (37:03):
Kind of hooks back up?

Speaker 5 (37:05):
Okay?

Speaker 4 (37:05):
Can is there have been dating you ever since? Pretty
much dating or married since seventeen? And when were you born?
Nineteen seventy nine s eighty seven? Is you had met
so in high school?

Speaker 5 (37:16):
Right?

Speaker 4 (37:16):
I say? And he was out of high school.

Speaker 5 (37:19):
Yeah, okay, so.

Speaker 4 (37:23):
He had been dating for a couple of years.

Speaker 5 (37:25):
Yep at that point.

Speaker 4 (37:27):
Yes, And I've said later that year you you moved
in together, and following year you got married.

Speaker 5 (37:34):
Right, ninety three you moved.

Speaker 4 (37:36):
In together, and then you got married in ninety four. Yeah, okay,
So how do you think he would have taken that
at the time? What do you think he woulda said?
Were you afraid that he was gonna leave you?

Speaker 6 (37:51):
What?

Speaker 4 (37:51):
What was your concern was telling Mark? Make you understand
you said your dad didn't want you to have kids,
that it was alive.

Speaker 5 (38:02):
I've it was probably yes, I was probably afraid that
that he would he would leave and want nothing to
do with.

Speaker 4 (38:16):
With that. And what what makes you think that about Mark?
You'd I have seen know him for quit sometime?

Speaker 14 (38:24):
That is true.

Speaker 5 (38:30):
I think I was afraid also for what his family
would think.

Speaker 4 (38:49):
HM.

Speaker 5 (38:49):
So I always go to the worst scenario and not
the best scenario.

Speaker 4 (38:57):
And what was the worst scenario in your mind? What
d you You didn't leave him? That was the worst
scenario and you didn't want him to leave you, so
your in your mind the way to keep him is
to not have this baby because you wanted to keep
him around, right, So that's why you hadn't told him,

(39:22):
and that's why you hadn't told your parents. And I'm
not tryna put words in your mouth. So it seems
like this was kind of your plan, whether or not
it happened that day or another day, but this is
what what you had anticipated happening, or the outcome being.

(39:42):
You weren't gonna tell anybody. You weren't gonna let anybody
know that this was happening. And whether it happened that
day or another day, this was your intentions cause you
didn't wanna lose market, you didn't wanna upset your families.
M I guess, so I don't wanna put my was

(40:12):
that your intention night? It would appear that way, cause
in your mind, if you tell Mark, he's gonna leave you.
If you tell your parents, you're gonna be ashamed. And
if his family finds out, you don't know what they're
gonna say. And we're not here to judge again, But

(40:44):
if that.

Speaker 14 (40:44):
Was your intention, you, finn, I don't think it was
my end.

Speaker 7 (41:03):
I d.

Speaker 4 (41:12):
Had you seen a doctor at all?

Speaker 6 (41:14):
No?

Speaker 4 (41:15):
No, I w w had you been to a doctor
prior to that. No, no, you did. You didn't go
to a regular doctor. You didn't have like a family
doctor that you saw if you got sick or anything
like that.

Speaker 5 (41:30):
Now once, once we were older than pediatrician, we didn't
my parents didn't you know? I think I said a doctor.

Speaker 4 (41:43):
You didn't have like a annual physical or anything like that.
Did you play any sports in high school?

Speaker 5 (41:47):
Now?

Speaker 4 (41:48):
No, you didn't do any kind of extracurriculars where you
were required to. No, when's the last time you saw
a doctor prior to the baby being born? What you said? Oh, I.

Speaker 5 (42:00):
These maybe fifteen or sixteen.

Speaker 4 (42:06):
You're fifteen or sixteen? Was the last time you went
to a doctor? Yeah? So what would happen if you
got sick like a cold, or you got the flu?
Where where would you go?

Speaker 5 (42:17):
The didn't go anywhere.

Speaker 4 (42:19):
You didn't go anywhere if you need an intibiotics or
anything like that, strip throat your infections.

Speaker 5 (42:26):
No, I don't recall going.

Speaker 4 (42:29):
Did you did your family have health care insurance?

Speaker 5 (42:32):
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (42:33):
You don't remember.

Speaker 6 (42:34):
No.

Speaker 5 (42:34):
I I don't even know if my mother has healthcare now,
mm I I don't know if we had health care then?

Speaker 4 (42:46):
So you hadn't been to a doctor. Even when you
found out that you were pregnant, you had never been
to a doctor or anything like that. Did you think
about seeing a doctor?

Speaker 6 (42:56):
No?

Speaker 4 (42:57):
Was it something that came up in your mind, like
maybe I should see a that after Obviously for a
couple months you knew you were pregnant, right.

Speaker 5 (43:05):
Type pigeonn't? No, I didn't. I didn't know who to
go see or who to contact.

Speaker 4 (43:14):
HM. So for basically the last twenty six years, you've
just kind of kept this bottle up inside. Have you
an anybody that you've confided in or knew that you
were pregnant or Hypno? And nobody knew that you were pregnant.

Speaker 5 (43:37):
Nobody knew what I was pregnant.

Speaker 4 (43:40):
You've never told anybody about it.

Speaker 5 (43:42):
You never told anyone about it.

Speaker 4 (43:46):
How about Mark?

Speaker 7 (43:47):
How?

Speaker 4 (43:47):
How how do you think he's gonna deal with fighting
out what happened?

Speaker 5 (43:54):
I'm not sure?

Speaker 4 (43:55):
What do you think he's gonna say about it? I'm
sure how do you think he should go about finding out?

Speaker 5 (44:10):
Oh? Hope you that I can tell him? Mkay?

Speaker 4 (44:13):
And what would you say to him?

Speaker 5 (44:22):
Think I always just go through what we just went through.

Speaker 4 (44:28):
And tell him, and you're not sure how he's gonna
take that.

Speaker 5 (44:35):
Sure he'll be upset.

Speaker 4 (44:37):
I think you mean him. Do you think he deserves
any any decision back then? There any right to know
and be a part of that decision that you made
for the duties.

Speaker 5 (45:04):
Back then? I didn't I didn't know what to do today. M.
It's a whole difference.

Speaker 4 (45:14):
Interesting that you may have made uh a different choice
knowing what you know now. But do you think that
it doesn't really answer the question? Do you think that
he deserved a right to have with a choice in
that decision that you made for the two of you?

Speaker 14 (45:28):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (45:35):
What do you think his choice would have been back then?
If if he would have known?

Speaker 3 (45:52):
Mm?

Speaker 5 (46:01):
Do you have been accepting of it?

Speaker 4 (46:14):
If he wasn't really given that opportunity? Is it because
he would have wanted you to keep it? No? No,

(46:45):
so you would? Do you think he would have wanted
you to keep it?

Speaker 5 (46:50):
Probably?

Speaker 6 (46:55):
So?

Speaker 4 (46:56):
Is that why you didn't tell him because you didn't
wanted to cause you want? Sure?

Speaker 7 (46:59):
What do.

Speaker 4 (47:02):
You didn't want him to have you keep it cause
you weren't ready? Does that kind of make sense why
you wouldn't tell him? I don't think It makes a
lot of sense if you wouldn't he did, he wouldn't
stick with you because he married you, or you bought
a house together and you had kids together. Do I

(47:24):
think his intentions were that? But I don't think you
were ready for a child at that time. He was
obviously a little bit older something.

Speaker 5 (47:31):
You were more scared.

Speaker 4 (47:37):
About being a mom.

Speaker 5 (47:39):
No, no, I w worked with children. I it was okay,
but how do you children?

Speaker 4 (47:48):
I think I was.

Speaker 5 (47:56):
More concerned as his loving me, cause I always been.

Speaker 4 (48:06):
In the back of my.

Speaker 5 (48:09):
Mind.

Speaker 4 (48:10):
So do you think you would have thought a job
better or.

Speaker 5 (48:13):
More Nona, No, no, no, I. It's really the only

(48:40):
man that ever loves me. And I wasn't sure if
we'd get married.

Speaker 14 (48:59):
H m hm.

Speaker 5 (49:01):
I was always afraid of of losing him, so kah,

(49:31):
I didn't want to lose him, And I think.

Speaker 13 (49:37):
Back then.

Speaker 5 (49:41):
My thoughts must have.

Speaker 4 (49:42):
Been that.

Speaker 5 (49:50):
That I would lose him because I didn't feel any better.

Speaker 4 (49:59):
So you were now they lose a child and take
the risk of lose a mark to the only man
that's ever loved you. So that was your thought process
at the time.

Speaker 5 (50:23):
I think so, well, that's something.

Speaker 4 (50:25):
That this is a very traumatic experience. And this is
not something that goes away. This is something that you know,
I would say, has been in your mind for the
last twenty six years. I can't imagine a day who's
gone by.

Speaker 5 (50:38):
That you haven't thought about it, well, not ever knowing
if the baby was found I dinner.

Speaker 4 (50:52):
So you never saw I mean there was news articles, newspapers,
news stories. Even up until two thousand sixteen, there were
news stories on and w KYC and different news and
and there was you know, reward posters and all kinds
of stuff they had. Uh uh the ceremony for the baby,

(51:15):
pitch is I No, you never heard that throughout the years,
did it not? What did? What was there in mind
when you found out that we were at your parents'
house two weeks ago?

Speaker 5 (51:30):
So my dad called me, so I was at home.

Speaker 4 (51:37):
M and they just.

Speaker 5 (51:48):
Went through a whole anxiety and couldn't bring kind of

(52:12):
been like that for the last two weeks, hopping on.

Speaker 4 (52:18):
You have an an good idea attacked M.

Speaker 5 (52:22):
I wanted to call them attacks just hypertension. I guess
thinking about what what was going to happened?

Speaker 4 (52:49):
Did you tell your to 'em when you spoke with them,
did they tell him. What did did he know? Did
you express to him that that it was your child?

Speaker 5 (52:59):
It did not?

Speaker 4 (53:01):
Do you think he was able to determine that while
he was on the phone with you when you when
you had your anxiety straight?

Speaker 5 (53:08):
I don't think so. I was short cause I was
getting ready to leave for work. So and his memory
of the details weren't the best.

Speaker 4 (53:24):
So was it older? Getting a little bit older?

Speaker 5 (53:27):
And he was he is?

Speaker 4 (53:29):
He do so little bit?

Speaker 5 (53:31):
Yes, he had a massive heart attack three years ago, and.

Speaker 14 (53:36):
This is.

Speaker 6 (53:42):
So.

Speaker 5 (53:42):
I just kind of let him ramble on like he does.

Speaker 13 (53:47):
And he told him that I had to go.

Speaker 5 (53:50):
Cause I had to leave her work.

Speaker 12 (53:57):
So right now, the only people that you've ever talked
two about this, or the two of us sitting here
in this room, there's no one.

Speaker 4 (54:03):
Outside of this room you've ever spoken to about this
or that would know about this. I have not the
uh the house that you said you you gave birthat.
Oh yeah, where where was that located?

Speaker 5 (54:20):
At? Shaker Heights, Shaker Heights, Woodbury Haven't or Woodbury Road,
wood Gray Road?

Speaker 4 (54:26):
What was the the name of the owners? The last
name of the owners.

Speaker 5 (54:31):
Cancer McNulty family.

Speaker 4 (54:33):
Cancer MacNalty family. How long had you worked for them?
And when this occurred?

Speaker 5 (54:43):
Oh, I worked up Let's see, my twins were born
in ninety seven, and that's when I left m I
stopped working in June the excuse me, June the ninety

(55:04):
seven or May of ninety seven, and I had worked
for them for four and a half years.

Speaker 4 (55:16):
At that point when you left in in ninety seven. Yeah,
you worked for four and a half years.

Speaker 5 (55:20):
Four yeah, four and a half and may have been
the I think was foreign and a half at that point.

Speaker 12 (55:29):
So you you stayed working for them for the duration
of time than after all this occurred and until you
said the birth.

Speaker 4 (55:34):
Of your twins. Yes, and those are your your oldest children,
of the twins. Yeah, okay, back back to the the
day of the birth, you said you would trade a
bag from under the kitchen sink. Is that correct?

Speaker 5 (55:49):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (55:50):
Okay. What method of closing the bag up did you
use when you put it in the trunk of the car.

Speaker 5 (56:01):
I think I just tied it down on.

Speaker 4 (56:03):
Just tied a shot and it was a a a
plastic uh. And he said, the black plastic trash type bag.
Say correct, yes, okay, And you said you can't recall
if it was in the trunk for a week.

Speaker 12 (56:17):
If it was a a week had gone by prior
to when you went to the the youth retreat, or
just a few days, that's correct.

Speaker 5 (56:23):
Okay, don't remember the time frame at all.

Speaker 4 (56:27):
Would anyone else have driven that vehicle?

Speaker 5 (56:30):
No?

Speaker 4 (56:31):
That was your your car?

Speaker 5 (56:33):
You owned that car? Okay, what kind of car was it?

Speaker 4 (56:36):
Do you remember.

Speaker 5 (56:39):
That time? I had afford tourists?

Speaker 4 (56:41):
What color was it?

Speaker 5 (56:43):
Uh? Tam?

Speaker 4 (56:44):
What cam for tourists was it? Did you purchase the
car or was it something your parents bought and it
was just you were the only one who drove it.

Speaker 5 (56:53):
Oh, I'm pretty sure it was a lightning wasn't your name?

Speaker 4 (56:56):
Yes? So this was in ninety three? So what year
would there a car then? Was it newer?

Speaker 5 (57:02):
Older?

Speaker 4 (57:03):
It was older? It was a used car. M.

Speaker 5 (57:07):
I don't remember what year it was.

Speaker 4 (57:11):
Do you remember how long you had it for? Mm?
Did you still have it when your twins were born?

Speaker 5 (57:22):
Oh? No, no, no, no, I don't even think. I
don't even know if I can remember if I had
it when we were married, it wasn't a very good car.

Speaker 4 (57:47):
Yeah, it was older. It was what year did you
get married?

Speaker 5 (57:53):
Ninety four?

Speaker 12 (57:53):
October first, October ninety four. You said you moved in
what September Ortember eighty ninety three, and that's the house.

Speaker 4 (58:00):
That you currently live in now. Yeah, during during your pregnancy,
Mark never knew that you were pregnant. He didn You
could never tell. Did you remain active with him during
that time frame?

Speaker 5 (58:19):
I believe so, yeah, And you.

Speaker 4 (58:22):
Could never tell that you were pregnant and never came
up like m.

Speaker 5 (58:27):
He never said anything. I never said anything.

Speaker 4 (58:31):
Obviously at that time, you guys had to be talking
about some type of a future together, cause just a
future of months oila. You kind of moved in together
and within a year and a half you're getting married,
So there had to be some kind of talk.

Speaker 5 (58:42):
So we did pursue the house in ninety three. Mm.
But he never let on that uh, that he was
gonna I had no idea that he was gonna propose
to me and of ninety three, so it.

Speaker 4 (59:02):
It wasn't even something that you guys had talked about
about having a future and kids and never came up
in conversation. It just kind of came up by a blue.

Speaker 5 (59:13):
Right. I mean, we had we had talked about it,
but he was because of purchasing the house. Just felt
like it wasn't a time that he could purchase a
ring or anything like that.

Speaker 4 (59:31):
And he enjoyed.

Speaker 5 (59:32):
He was kind of true, Yes, he felt strapped.

Speaker 4 (59:36):
But typically you know, people talk about, you know, their
futures and getting married and whether or not they want
to have kids and yeah, so at some point they
had to kind of come up in conversations like I'm
sure it did. Yeah. And and what was I mean,
was he always of the opinion he wanted like a
large family or what what did you do?

Speaker 5 (59:54):
I mean, we both were about the green that we fought.
Three children was a a good nice number of kids.

Speaker 4 (01:00:05):
So you both had wanted kids, yes, and and talked
about having a couple at least three yes, Oh it
was a good number. So yes, And they had come
up throughout your dating.

Speaker 5 (01:00:17):
Periodically. I mean, it wasn't point of conversation all the time.

Speaker 4 (01:00:22):
Oh m, I'm not sure it would be. But you
guys talked about having a future together and yes, and
raising her family yes. So it seemed like he wanted
to have kids, yes, and the adventurely you you did
have kids, yes, so well again, and what is it
that it was going through your mind during March, if

(01:00:45):
that made you think, if if this was coming up
in conversation when you guys were talking about having a
future and getting married and having three kids, what what
what is it that you know and he wants kids
when because you're dating, you're talking about it in the future.
What is it If it didn't make you not wanna
tell him?

Speaker 5 (01:01:04):
I am I really, I I was scared. I was
scared as to what my father would think. And I yeah,

(01:01:25):
I think I was scared just because we weren't married and.

Speaker 4 (01:01:31):
You knew you wanted kids eventually.

Speaker 5 (01:01:33):
Yes, he didn't know that yet.

Speaker 4 (01:01:36):
Yes, you you told us earlier too that you think,
as you told him at the time, that he would
have wanted you to keep the child.

Speaker 5 (01:01:44):
It's possible, yes, but I don't think that was what
was going through my head. That wasn't going through my head.

Speaker 4 (01:01:59):
And you're staying you said you're scared, but I I
just don't quite understand what you're afraid of, other than
I understand your parents knowing that that you're pregnant at
would like. But as far as you know, telling Mark
you you guys are dating for for a five years
at that point, at least you guys are talking about
having a future. You're talking about occasionally, not not every day,

(01:02:19):
but talking about getting married, talking about having kids. You
both want kids. You know, later that year he buys
a house and proposes to you. It It doesn't I
I I'm I'm struggling with the fact that you're you're
scared to telling him. I mean, it's you know, it's
not a kid, it's just masterism.

Speaker 5 (01:02:39):
One night, I know, I've I I don't.

Speaker 4 (01:02:56):
It seems like there's more and and you're giving us
a lot, but they're there's just something. Don't know else
what was going through your mind at that time, and
I don't know what it is. If you know, again,
I don't want put words in your mind, if you
just weren't ready at the time, or you know what,
what what was going through your mind. I could see

(01:03:19):
if Mark saying listen, I don't want kids, I never
want kids, or never getting married. But he's talking about it,
and you guys are having conversations about it. Guys were
even talking about we want three kids, and they'll behold
you have three kids. I'm very shortly after you're moving in,

(01:03:44):
you're getting engaged, you're within a year and a half,
you're you're married and living together.

Speaker 5 (01:04:04):
H I'm not sure you really haven't thought was it then?
I was afraid of losing him because of it?

Speaker 4 (01:04:21):
Pretty game? He's talking about it A didn't he wants
to have.

Speaker 5 (01:04:24):
I I understand. I.

Speaker 4 (01:04:29):
I would think most women would think, how was it
that it was a way to keep him? That it
would almost be a way to keep him. We have
a child together, and it's it's kind of a way
to But I I don't understand how how that would
make you afraid to lose you. Guys have had a
relationship for several years.

Speaker 5 (01:04:46):
Your your inter relations We yes, yes, we were in
a relationship. It it's I I was afraid. I it's

(01:05:18):
my father finding out.

Speaker 14 (01:05:32):
That's all I can think of.

Speaker 5 (01:05:34):
I I it's afraid of losing him. I was never, ever,
ever felt certain that he loved me, So.

Speaker 4 (01:06:07):
I didn't understand it.

Speaker 5 (01:06:08):
There was the prettiest girl.

Speaker 15 (01:06:10):
I wasn't skinny, I wasn't the smartest girl, and never
thought hired of myself.

Speaker 4 (01:06:42):
Was there a concern that it could be somebody else's no,
m m.

Speaker 5 (01:06:49):
M nope.

Speaker 4 (01:06:53):
I could see that if you're worried that you know
maybe these somebody else's and you're afraid to tell me.

Speaker 5 (01:06:58):
I all.

Speaker 4 (01:07:00):
Just really struggle with that the other seeing that you
know what did just in a few months you guys
were moving in and getting.

Speaker 5 (01:07:06):
Married or well we were, they were looking at houses.

Speaker 4 (01:07:09):
I understand that, but but again it had to be
coming out of the conversation. And you know, even if
it's just occasionally so much you guys are building your relationship,
have been together, you know, but I.

Speaker 5 (01:07:31):
A long time to feel truly loved by it.

Speaker 4 (01:07:48):
To what again, was it that maybe that would did
hurt something that loud from you to to the baby,
and the baby would beginning of the attention and you
wanted his attention?

Speaker 5 (01:08:02):
No, I no, I don't think I thought that at all.

Speaker 4 (01:08:09):
Why don't you take out grade step out? Do you
need to be the lazier on or anything?

Speaker 5 (01:08:13):
Oh I, it's not too much trouble, oh I, sun,
I don't.

Speaker 4 (01:08:16):
Wan't take it out of all that. Its just right
across the hall here time did you make a ray here? Pay?
You'd uh? Usually one across from my go wards office
and stuff? Okay take with you? Okay you anything else

(01:08:43):
I can get you? Get off that water is there

(01:09:08):
something you need? H okay, guess your other water.

Speaker 14 (01:09:16):
If you want one?

Speaker 5 (01:09:17):
There? You don't ga do you?

Speaker 4 (01:09:20):
Oh? Would they do the best on Ris Funny Story?
Oh don't, I don't be sorry. Nope, it's been a
little while given you what would my faforite? Mm? You?

Speaker 5 (01:09:36):
Okay though?

Speaker 4 (01:09:38):
And kind of coming down a little bit, Yeah, you
ever thought of anything else? In the meantime since we
can d maybe you think we should know about.

Speaker 5 (01:09:51):
I really know?

Speaker 4 (01:09:52):
No, what's kind of taking a whole while is We
also had a search one for your husband's DNA too,
m okay, cause we had believed that he was the
father as well.

Speaker 3 (01:10:03):
Uh.

Speaker 4 (01:10:03):
We had kind of connected some family members on his
side of the family as well, not not as uh
extensive as we had on your side of the family.
We've actually been working your side of the family for
quite some time. We have probably thirteen fourteen hundred people
in a family tree that we amasked, uh, you know,
work in the did DNA back until we recently haven't

(01:10:26):
seen any contact with your parents. But we believed that
he was, you know, related to the baby as well,
so we made contact with him. He had made some
statements that were a little contradictory to what you had
told us. Had you ever been pregnant prior to this pregnancy?
Oh no, there's besides your three children that you have

(01:10:49):
in this baby that we're talking about today. Is there
any other pregnancies or children or anything besides those four
h throughout throughout your own whole you know, life up
to this moment, even prior to ninety three. Huh, cause

(01:11:10):
your husband indicated that he was aware that you were
pregnant at some point, and that you told him that
you were going to a doctor, and that you had
told him that you were pregnant. We have other investigators
that were out with us today and they're actually speaking
with your husband right now and have been for quite
some time.

Speaker 5 (01:11:37):
Oh, never told I was pregnant and then he was
going to a doctor.

Speaker 4 (01:11:48):
He's he's pretty adamant that he did know. He wasn't
sure the time from he said it could have been
around ninety two ninety three. It might have been a
little bit, you know, a couple of years prior, but
he wasn't sure. But he was in fact a where
and you were telling him you were going to a
doctor's office on a regular basis since seeing a doctor,
and he knew that you two were having a child.

(01:12:14):
Is there any other pregnancy or any way that he
knew about this? Maybe you just don't remember you ever
talked about a long time ago.

Speaker 5 (01:12:22):
Yes, if he knew, he never told me he knew.

Speaker 4 (01:12:27):
Well, he said that you guys had talked about it
and you had told him that you were going to
see a doctor. M Were you pregnant again prior to
this baby? Were talking about today? And he never told

(01:12:48):
him no, So you for sure are only been pregnant
three times in your life.

Speaker 5 (01:12:56):
I had this carriage before the twins that we were married.

Speaker 4 (01:13:00):
Then, Okay, what do you think that was?

Speaker 5 (01:13:04):
Ok I wanted to I think it was ninety five?

Speaker 4 (01:13:09):
Okay, and he was obviously aware of that pregnancy or now, yeah,
do you recall about how long you were pregnant?

Speaker 5 (01:13:23):
Pretty sure you heard I heard the heartbeat.

Speaker 4 (01:13:27):
Do you know what trimester that would have been?

Speaker 5 (01:13:35):
It was ninety five? I know I lost the baby
in September.

Speaker 4 (01:13:49):
The ninety five youthin Yes, Okay, which doctor were you
seeing at that time?

Speaker 5 (01:13:55):
Uh?

Speaker 10 (01:13:56):
Ye?

Speaker 5 (01:13:56):
This doctor Hermann?

Speaker 4 (01:13:58):
Then more of his office is okaying at Hillcrest at
Hillcrest's Hospital.

Speaker 5 (01:14:04):
I think he was across the street in those m
medical buildings.

Speaker 4 (01:14:07):
Okay, how many times did you go to see doctor.

Speaker 5 (01:14:10):
Herman for that pregnancy and then for the twinth? Okay?

Speaker 4 (01:14:18):
Uh? How many times did you see him for that pregnancy?

Speaker 5 (01:14:20):
Specifically the the first one, the one that you had
a did you was the miss carriage? Yes? Two or three?

Speaker 4 (01:14:35):
Three or three appointment you had with him?

Speaker 5 (01:14:37):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (01:14:39):
And was he aware that you had the miscarriage?

Speaker 5 (01:14:42):
Yes, good doctor had Yes, so it was a hill crest.
Then you had the best carriage.

Speaker 4 (01:14:46):
You were in the hospital when it happened.

Speaker 5 (01:14:48):
Yeah, so that one is documented m leeve so yes,
Well if you're in that hospos could be okay, Yeah, then.

Speaker 4 (01:14:55):
It was ninety five or sh you said September of
ninety five? Y. Yes, the you were sure how long
you were? How far long you were?

Speaker 5 (01:15:09):
Maybe two months two and you after three and most.

Speaker 4 (01:15:17):
Likely still in the first Trandmester, Yeah, was there ever
a time.

Speaker 12 (01:15:25):
Prior to you that the incident we're talking about today
that you ever thought you could have been pregnant?

Speaker 4 (01:15:34):
Yeah? Oh you said that you Uh, you and your
husband do you liked him when you were sixteen?

Speaker 6 (01:15:42):
Did you?

Speaker 5 (01:15:42):
Guys?

Speaker 4 (01:15:43):
Date a little bit when you were sixteen?

Speaker 5 (01:15:44):
We did what?

Speaker 4 (01:15:46):
Uh, what caused you guys to separate?

Speaker 5 (01:15:47):
You said you separated, didn't ask me out anymore?

Speaker 4 (01:15:53):
Okay, So he went on like a couple of dates
or were.

Speaker 5 (01:15:55):
You guys kind of you know, exclusively seeing each Oh?

Speaker 12 (01:15:57):
Yeah, no, it just in a couple of dates, not
a couple of days.

Speaker 4 (01:16:01):
Okay. You guys have like a argument or a disagreement
over something specific.

Speaker 5 (01:16:08):
You just never called to ask me out again. And
then I reached out to him after a period of time.

Speaker 4 (01:16:16):
And how long was that a period of time?

Speaker 11 (01:16:18):
Oh?

Speaker 5 (01:16:18):
I don't know. I I was seventeen.

Speaker 4 (01:16:24):
I what made you what made you reach out to him?

Speaker 5 (01:16:31):
I liked him. I was curious if you'd go back
out with me again?

Speaker 4 (01:16:41):
Have you said?

Speaker 12 (01:16:42):
Obviously, during the time around this event and before that,
you were you were sexually active with your husband.

Speaker 4 (01:16:49):
Now your boyfriend at the time. When when were you
guys first active?

Speaker 5 (01:16:53):
Mm? Not till maybe eighteen when you were eighteen? Yeah, okay,
I think so. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:17:06):
So was it the second time that you guys had
started dating again?

Speaker 5 (01:17:10):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (01:17:13):
Kay? Did they tell you what what caused you to
have in this carriage? Was there anything like, were you
having some type of a medical issue.

Speaker 5 (01:17:19):
I know, I just started leaving during the night, okay.

Speaker 4 (01:17:24):
And you got taken a hospital, then I take it
merch to me a hospital worked too, kids to a hospital.
And and of course they did you disclose during that
pregnancy that you had been pregnant prior? No? No, did
they ask you that?

Speaker 6 (01:17:37):
No?

Speaker 4 (01:17:38):
Uh, they never asked you if you had prevised pregnancy.
Did any kind of doctor's paperwork? Normally when you go
to a doctor and you said you hadn't been to
a doctor previously, right for many years, So normally they
make you filling out some you know, can take paperwork.

Speaker 5 (01:17:52):
If you were pro would they filled out paperwork?

Speaker 4 (01:17:54):
And so I I would think that that was on there,
you know, any previous pregnancies, especially when you go to
see uh you know, or a kind of college story, right,
that's some one of those lines that you know they
would ask you, yes, you know if you had previous pregnancies,
previous you know, the times that you lost babies. So
I would think that was on there. But you don't

(01:18:14):
remember it was or it wasn't, or you don't recall.

Speaker 5 (01:18:18):
Or I don't recall it.

Speaker 4 (01:18:20):
I'm it could have been like I don't but you
don't remember if you would have put it out accurately
or if you would have lied about that about the
previous pregnancy that you had.

Speaker 5 (01:18:32):
Well, if it was on there, I probably didn't mention it,
so you probably would have lied, correct.

Speaker 4 (01:18:38):
Is that fair to say if it was on there?

Speaker 5 (01:18:41):
Yeah? Okay?

Speaker 4 (01:18:46):
Have you ever gone to act to the the area
where you dropped the the bag with the baby? Inn?

Speaker 5 (01:18:51):
I have not. Have you ever tried to find the
area again?

Speaker 4 (01:18:54):
Yeah?

Speaker 6 (01:18:54):
No?

Speaker 4 (01:18:57):
Kay? Well you've been Okay, camp? So what's that then?

Speaker 5 (01:19:00):
Right? Cause you any kids went there?

Speaker 4 (01:19:03):
I think?

Speaker 5 (01:19:05):
And anything?

Speaker 4 (01:19:05):
Do do? Do your kids work there with you?

Speaker 5 (01:19:08):
Yes? I have two that are working there this summer.

Speaker 4 (01:19:10):
And what are they doing there?

Speaker 5 (01:19:12):
I sound is doing maintenance. And when Courtney's done with
her first round of internship at a daycare in Geneva,
then she'll go out and she's kind of program manager.

(01:19:37):
I guess is a good way to explain it.

Speaker 4 (01:19:41):
And you've been out to the camp since since it's
into the correct Yeah? Yeah, how does that make you
feel when you go out there? Can you prove you? Now?

Speaker 5 (01:19:52):
You just go to camp, but.

Speaker 4 (01:19:55):
Obviously you know that you left and left your child,
you know, just in a in a very close practice
when you did that.

Speaker 5 (01:20:01):
I I don't remember where.

Speaker 4 (01:20:04):
But ahs, so you were at a camp and you
drove from there, so it was somewhere close by. If
that doesn't yeah, Ki kind of those those memories or
they hadn't No, No, it's something.

Speaker 12 (01:20:14):
You just left in the past when you were out
at the camp at at the time that you you
got rid of the baby. You were you were functioning
that weekend as a youth counselor, is that correct?

Speaker 14 (01:20:28):
Yes?

Speaker 5 (01:20:28):
I think I had a couple of teams there.

Speaker 4 (01:20:31):
Okay. Was there any other counselors with you that weekend
or were you the soul? No?

Speaker 5 (01:20:36):
I think I was the only one.

Speaker 4 (01:20:38):
How many how many teams do you think would have
gone with you?

Speaker 5 (01:20:41):
It's just one counselor there were three or four girls?

Speaker 12 (01:20:45):
It was there like a weekend long retreat or so
you stayed at a couple nights.

Speaker 14 (01:20:49):
Yes, Okay.

Speaker 4 (01:20:51):
Do you remember any of those girls names by chance?

Speaker 5 (01:20:54):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (01:20:54):
Yeah? Who would they have been.

Speaker 5 (01:20:58):
At the time when they were teenagers?

Speaker 4 (01:21:01):
That was.

Speaker 5 (01:21:04):
Erica and Monica Wilkins, and I don't recall well their
older sister might have.

Speaker 4 (01:21:10):
Been there, Chris, what are Erica on Monica's names?

Speaker 5 (01:21:15):
Now?

Speaker 4 (01:21:15):
Do you know what their mary names are?

Speaker 5 (01:21:20):
One of Stobell and mm I'm joining a blank on Monica's.

Speaker 4 (01:21:42):
How old would they have been? Said their teenagers?

Speaker 5 (01:21:48):
Maybe sixteen seventeen.

Speaker 4 (01:21:52):
You know it's cold like winter time. What was was
there any any kind of a special purpose friisci?

Speaker 5 (01:21:57):
Probably a winner retreat.

Speaker 4 (01:21:58):
And winter retreat. So would have been like spring break
maybe or no, no oncees a weekend get away, right?

Speaker 5 (01:22:06):
Kay?

Speaker 4 (01:22:11):
And you said it doesn't bother you to go after
that camp at all?

Speaker 5 (01:22:15):
Well it hadn't M.

Speaker 4 (01:22:18):
Did you ever wonder what happened or or think about?
I wonder what happened?

Speaker 5 (01:22:22):
Or I think I did for a while after M.
But then I never heard anything.

Speaker 4 (01:22:29):
So I think it just and three kids that I
was raising and involved with.

Speaker 5 (01:22:48):
You.

Speaker 12 (01:22:48):
You said you were obviously still with your husband during
during the pregnancy. You s stayed together and you said.

Speaker 4 (01:22:55):
He was not aware of it. Uh, what measures did
you take to hide that pregnancy? You said you were
still in a mine involved with him. How were you
to keep him from knowing you were pregnant?

Speaker 5 (01:23:04):
Well, like I said, I I was always heavy set,
So I don't recall really showing.

Speaker 4 (01:23:15):
Or like other than do Did you get in a
lot of weight? Do you remember? No?

Speaker 5 (01:23:27):
I don't think so.

Speaker 14 (01:23:28):
Yeah, I I don't.

Speaker 5 (01:23:34):
I think I probably stayed about the same as I
always was. It always over two hundred two thirty mm
in weight.

Speaker 4 (01:23:48):
You know, every woman's different from different pregnancy. Sometimes you
gain weight, sometimes you don't want to mm you show
every time? It could be different. Did you take any
other sho have to trying to hide it from Mark?

Speaker 5 (01:24:04):
No?

Speaker 4 (01:24:04):
No, cause I obviously you don't want him to know, right,
but you don't have to do anything else to keep
it from him.

Speaker 6 (01:24:15):
He just.

Speaker 5 (01:24:19):
I don't think so. M M.

Speaker 4 (01:24:28):
Since this has all been kindled up in the last
two weeks, L what what's going on with you?

Speaker 5 (01:24:33):
What? What is this? Uh?

Speaker 4 (01:24:35):
What are you feeling right now?

Speaker 5 (01:24:41):
Machine? Embarrassed? Wa thought about taking a bunch of pills today?

Speaker 12 (01:25:06):
When did you think about that today? When when you
saw us or earlier before that?

Speaker 5 (01:25:09):
No, all day, all day even I woke up with
that feeling.

Speaker 4 (01:25:13):
Are you still thinking about that now?

Speaker 5 (01:25:18):
So when I was got myself to go to work,
still had it in the back of my mind that
I would do that, And what.

Speaker 4 (01:25:31):
Would the goal of that behavior be to end your life? Yes? Okay,
either your told your gear, we don't wanna see that.
We're not here to judge you.

Speaker 5 (01:25:45):
Well, there's a lot of other people judging me right.

Speaker 4 (01:25:47):
Now, and that's who who who's judging you?

Speaker 6 (01:25:51):
Are?

Speaker 5 (01:25:51):
Well myself? M M God and now that my husband knows.

Speaker 4 (01:26:11):
Hope did? That is our concern at this point is
your safety not only from yourself but from other people?
Do you how do you think Mark will react to this?
I mean, are you concerned that he has he ever
been violent with you?

Speaker 5 (01:26:32):
No? Never, No, He's been a wonderful husband and father.
Couldn't have ask for a better person in my life.
I wou say is is and that's why I struggled

(01:26:52):
so much with trying to tell him.

Speaker 4 (01:26:57):
Or what about his family? Are they oh?

Speaker 5 (01:27:12):
Kind, I'll be national. We have a wonderful family.

Speaker 3 (01:27:28):
Uh.

Speaker 4 (01:27:28):
How do you think they're gonna react? Would you be
concerned for your safety from their family? M?

Speaker 5 (01:27:34):
Are there safety? No? Mm? Now as it's I think
I would be spoken to again.

Speaker 4 (01:27:43):
Where do you think the safest place for you would be?
Right now? We're not so sure it would be back
with Mark. I'm not saying it it's not safe, but
you know, we're not sure how he's going to deal
with that. This is something obvitually you've known this for
ending back over with it for twenty six years. This
is something that has been literally dropped in his lab

(01:28:06):
today out of nowhere. And I I don't know how
he's going to react to that. We're concerned for him.

Speaker 5 (01:28:16):
And for you.

Speaker 4 (01:28:29):
We have no intention of running out if you're telling
everybody what what the crust of our conversation was today. However,
you have to understand over the last twenty six years,
this was a very big case.

Speaker 5 (01:28:40):
And and and in that regard, I.

Speaker 4 (01:28:42):
Don't know how you didn't know about it. There's been
news stories, newspaper articles, ye, like I said, even ask
E even in his recent as two s two thousand
and sixteen, there was a a news story that some
of the original investigators UH did uh on the news.
It was probably a twelve fifteen in the article that

(01:29:02):
they did on the news. So this is something that
you know was and is something today very big in
the community here in Jarvie County. There's people that ugly said,
you know, UH donated clothes they donated the burial expensive.
There's a headstone, Yeah, there's a headstone in a memorial.
They they they did a ceremony and and did a
headstone im memorial and uh, your child is is referred

(01:29:25):
to his job as baby because so many members of
the community donated different things for your child mm in
they and they maintain that their grief. So so th
this is something that is very big in the community.

(01:29:47):
And with that being said, you know, we are concerned
for your welfare, and you know what is the best
place for you? So where do you think the best
place would it be with your sister? Maybe?

Speaker 5 (01:30:01):
Probably not?

Speaker 4 (01:30:02):
No, Why why do you think that we have not
told her? We did have a search one for her
dama as well. Uh, but we did not execute that
to d to so we have not made contact with her.
We only made contact with you and your husband today.

(01:30:30):
Where do you think you'd be saved at scale? I think.

Speaker 12 (01:30:42):
You are you still having thoughts or or considerations of
any of your life or harming yourself?

Speaker 14 (01:30:51):
I guess not.

Speaker 5 (01:30:52):
It's all out on the table. I guess probably not.

Speaker 4 (01:30:56):
Do you feel better and those it's all out on
the table? In some there's gotta be some burdens left
off to you. You know, it's it's something you've kept
in for twenty six years.

Speaker 5 (01:31:07):
Well, it's only been something that I've known sometimes it
was a lot of burdens.

Speaker 4 (01:31:16):
What other burdens have you dealt with?

Speaker 14 (01:31:22):
Growing up?

Speaker 5 (01:31:22):
Was uneasy and in my house? And what is that?
My father was an alcoholic for sixteen years of my life.

Speaker 4 (01:31:33):
It's not easy to deal with.

Speaker 5 (01:31:35):
No, he's verbally abusive. So when I said I never
thought highly of myself, that's where that comes from.

Speaker 4 (01:31:47):
Dealing with the alcoholic and speaking to a lot of
your family, I understand even though your dad was adopted,
that and that was something that was uh, you know,
his parents were were not known to be great parents.

(01:32:09):
I didn't know that.

Speaker 3 (01:32:10):
M M.

Speaker 4 (01:32:14):
Is you know if your father and two of his
siblings when your grandmother passed, they were given up for
a doction and your father was only on the.

Speaker 5 (01:32:23):
Tea team that's told her.

Speaker 4 (01:32:23):
I believe when he was given up for a doction.
Is there a place that that you can be safe, Tony,
or that you would feel safe?

Speaker 5 (01:32:41):
I don't know. Do you remer not allowed to see Mark?

Speaker 4 (01:32:50):
I don't know how that's gonna go go to check
on out. Yeah, I I'm not gonna tell you yes
or no. That's a Again, we don't know.

Speaker 12 (01:32:58):
How Mark is taking this cause that we we haven't
seen him yet.

Speaker 4 (01:33:01):
He's not here right now, and and obviously if he's
highly agitated, I don't wanna expose you to any type
of risk of harm. Our concern in our responsibility is
your safety at this point, and where is the sage
that it's placed to be not only from other people,
but from yourself. And in talking to you, you've already

(01:33:22):
had thoughts of harming yourself today.

Speaker 12 (01:33:28):
I'm gonna venture to guess was not the first time
that you consider taking those pills?

Speaker 5 (01:33:33):
It was it was the first time.

Speaker 12 (01:33:34):
Did you did you consider harming yourself any days prior
to today?

Speaker 5 (01:33:39):
No?

Speaker 4 (01:33:40):
What what triggered that?

Speaker 5 (01:33:41):
Today? Just blocks in my head?

Speaker 4 (01:33:49):
What were those thoughts?

Speaker 5 (01:33:50):
Kids? Trying to spare family embarrassment, shame and didn't want

(01:34:18):
to make kids to see me?

Speaker 4 (01:34:25):
Your kids still love you again? Hm, that's how going
to change your up for you? Your still the mother.
What was it specifically about today that changed though? Cause

(01:34:48):
you've kind of known for probably close to two weeks
that this day had to be coming.

Speaker 5 (01:34:54):
Right. I knew that what you just said him, hadn't
I don't know.

Speaker 6 (01:35:02):
I just.

Speaker 5 (01:35:07):
Guess going over in my head what what to do
or how to tell Mark?

Speaker 4 (01:35:16):
Had you try to tell him? And I am ver.

Speaker 5 (01:35:24):
I've tried in my head to think how to tell him.

Speaker 11 (01:35:28):
Yes, like I said, I've never been good at confrontation.
I've gotten better over the years.

Speaker 5 (01:35:50):
MM, so what all to me? Don't wanna do it

(01:36:27):
just because I don't wanna make kids coming home and
finding me?

Speaker 4 (01:36:40):
And need you think about your kids cause it's gonna
harm them even worse what's done and done and the
mistakes you've made. But to do something like that, it's
only gonna hurt them even worse. Have you ever see

(01:37:10):
seen any other mental health professionals or some counselors or
anything ellen on AAA, anything like that to deal with
some of the issues from your father in previous to
it to be spoken of and maybe he's just have

(01:37:32):
you ever previously had down to froming yourself? Yeah, No,
it's never been an issue. What is it about your
sisters that you don't think will be safe?

Speaker 5 (01:37:44):
Oh, supposed to be safe? But her husband's a police officer.

Speaker 4 (01:37:48):
M some, I don't. Did you go along with him?

Speaker 5 (01:37:54):
Yep, to get along with them? Fine?

Speaker 4 (01:37:57):
Do you think he's gonna I mean, is you're a
concern with him? Or I mean he you can know
your brother in law, I know.

Speaker 5 (01:38:06):
But your friends that don't wanna chase this into their house? Good?

Speaker 4 (01:38:14):
And you don't think you'd be safe at your parents' house?

Speaker 5 (01:38:18):
Well, I probably would, but they don't know yet, Interfuent.

Speaker 4 (01:38:34):
We haven't told them. I don't know if they'd put
it together. I don't think that they have. Is there
any way that you could think of that you would
be safe?

Speaker 5 (01:38:55):
Gues, I don't wanna take my mess into anyone else's house.

Speaker 4 (01:39:03):
Uh. As we told you earlier, intent was not to
put you in jail tonight. But we do have a
duty for your safety as well. Yeah, if we if

(01:39:23):
we had to talk to to amount of health professional
would be willing to do that. When you speak with someone,
if you were able to find someone to talk with you, sure,

(01:39:47):
let's say, if we can get something set up. You
know we we we do you know any concerns for
your safety at this point? Mm? You may not think
so what we do? So we need to see if
we can get something worked out for you. So if

(01:40:10):
there's anything you could think of. I understand that you
don't wanna bring your issues into somebody else's house, and
I respect that, but we also don't know. I mean,
your kids don't know, your husband's just found out. We
don't know how that's going to go. Okay, what was

(01:40:32):
the last time you eat? To eight.

Speaker 5 (01:40:35):
Mm?

Speaker 4 (01:40:36):
Shall be more an hour before last or we'll see
if good you o you onlay see any use something
to eat? What was your can give you something and
then is it your choice if you wanna eat it? Okay, well, hey,
if you use it to may us a little the
time to to find somewhere out that we know is
gonna be able to ensure you're safety. Okay, that's so

(01:40:57):
good there. The last thing I mean, we we feel
like we we need to talk about with you is
the fact that obviously you know now we had a
s a certain form for your DNA, alright, and we
have your DNA and that is not only gonna be

(01:41:19):
compared into the the the child, but also into the database.
And there are many unfortunate any other cases out there,
and your da your DNA is gonna be in the system.
That's gonna be compared to all those cases. And now
is the time. If there is anything else that you
need to get out there. You've come, you know, UH

(01:41:42):
clean with this what's happened here, You've told us what happened,
what's happened. If there is anything else that your DNA
is going to link you to, uh because unfortunately there
are other baby cases that happened and those are still open.
And then there's other homicide cases here in Jugge County,

(01:42:03):
in a Nashville County lincount and now that we have
your DNA, it's gonna be compared to all those cases.
It's gonna be in that system. So if there is
any other issues out there that we need to talk about,
now is the time to do it. Cause I'm not
getting ware of a fuzzy that this isn't the only time.
That there may be some more times and it's gonna

(01:42:25):
be compared to all those other cases. Guilt, and the
last thing you wanna do is say that you came
in here and be honest with us, because you know
part of what happens is you know, truth and sentence, inion,
showing genuine remorse and coming clean. And if there are
other issues. Now is the time that we need to
talk about And I truly believe that you know that

(01:42:50):
there is other issues. And we're here to listen. We're
not here to judge you. We're not yelling and screaming.
But you know and I know this isn't the only
time that there's more times that this has happened, and
now is the time that you need to tell us

(01:43:11):
about those, Gill, How many other times has this happened?

Speaker 5 (01:43:19):
One other time?

Speaker 4 (01:43:20):
One other time? And when was that?

Speaker 9 (01:43:26):
Oh?

Speaker 4 (01:43:27):
Was it before or after this child?

Speaker 5 (01:43:30):
Before?

Speaker 4 (01:43:31):
Before? Was that what Mark was talking.

Speaker 5 (01:43:33):
About in ninety ninety one?

Speaker 4 (01:43:35):
To see he had told our investigator's namey ninety one
that there was another pregnancy that he was aware of.

Speaker 5 (01:43:45):
I didn't tell him, Okay, Hi, those pregnant?

Speaker 4 (01:43:49):
MM, so.

Speaker 5 (01:43:53):
He may have known MM.

Speaker 4 (01:43:57):
When was his previous pregnancy? Right?

Speaker 5 (01:44:00):
Probably about that time, not the.

Speaker 4 (01:44:02):
Ninety ninety ninety one time. How How old were you
at the time? Would you remember that on the beaz
you remember?

Speaker 5 (01:44:07):
Oh? Well, twenty twenty one?

Speaker 12 (01:44:11):
Okay, twenty can explained that situation to us, tell us
what happened?

Speaker 4 (01:44:17):
Is there a Mars child as well?

Speaker 5 (01:44:19):
Is it?

Speaker 4 (01:44:20):
Okay? And tells what happened on that in that situation.

Speaker 5 (01:44:36):
Pretty much the same situation other than I had the
baby at his rental house in Mursider. Who was he?

Speaker 14 (01:44:56):
Golod?

Speaker 5 (01:44:57):
You clin?

Speaker 4 (01:44:58):
Was that in Harwich?

Speaker 6 (01:45:00):
H What?

Speaker 4 (01:45:00):
What streetment that?

Speaker 5 (01:45:01):
I know? It's it's where he was living in to
forty eighth street. Okay he mentioned from his brother gave

(01:45:28):
birth to it in the toilet?

Speaker 4 (01:45:34):
Is it an employer or a girl?

Speaker 5 (01:45:35):
I I don't know, and I never.

Speaker 4 (01:45:40):
You didn't want to know.

Speaker 5 (01:45:41):
I never looked.

Speaker 4 (01:45:43):
Ok. Think they don't know what what happened after you
give first the show?

Speaker 5 (01:45:54):
They did the same thing, but I didn't garbage back?

Speaker 4 (01:46:03):
And what did you do with their garbage bed?

Speaker 5 (01:46:14):
I left it?

Speaker 4 (01:46:16):
What do you mean you left it? What does that
mean to do?

Speaker 5 (01:46:19):
I took it and left it over by medical buildings
in new Wood.

Speaker 4 (01:46:31):
Where'd where did you leave it? Exactly there?

Speaker 5 (01:46:36):
M there's a road called brush Road that goes up
behind very tall medical buildings that are there, and I
just left it over in the tall.

Speaker 4 (01:46:56):
Grass, kind of like a field area. Leftn't telegraph? Yeah,
what time of year was this? Summer?

Speaker 12 (01:47:13):
Think of the summer summer and you think you're twenty one.
Would do you remember what year would have.

Speaker 5 (01:47:17):
Been m either ninety or ninety one.

Speaker 4 (01:47:29):
I don't.

Speaker 5 (01:47:31):
Don't wear in college a year it was okay?

Speaker 4 (01:47:34):
Would it would have been summer ninety ninety one?

Speaker 5 (01:47:37):
Yes?

Speaker 7 (01:47:38):
Hm?

Speaker 4 (01:47:39):
How would Mark have known that you would have been
pregnant around them? That's that's what he's advised or other investigators,
that you were pregnant around them, that you would have
had a miscarriage.

Speaker 5 (01:47:48):
You tell him that, Oh, I didn't have a miscarriage.

Speaker 4 (01:47:53):
I don't understand that. But uh, would you have told
that to Mark if he maybe he he figured out
if you were pregnant at the time and you told
him you had a miscarriage, cause she seems to think
that around that time you were pregnant and you told
him you had a miscarriage.

Speaker 5 (01:48:08):
I don't recall telling him then.

Speaker 4 (01:48:15):
What colored trash bag did you put to the baby in?

Speaker 5 (01:48:18):
Oh? I'm not sure what he added at the time.

Speaker 4 (01:48:31):
Do you remember tying the bag?

Speaker 5 (01:48:34):
Probably? Did?

Speaker 4 (01:48:35):
I mean, do you remember?

Speaker 5 (01:48:36):
Though? I most likely very not sure.

Speaker 4 (01:48:48):
If you're not sure, don't say you're not sure.

Speaker 5 (01:48:50):
I probably hide in in the nuse.

Speaker 4 (01:48:55):
Was the baby moving in the bag?

Speaker 5 (01:48:58):
I don't remember. You don't remember me?

Speaker 4 (01:49:00):
Do do you never remember? Do you just kind of
block that out of you? Remembery may I?

Speaker 5 (01:49:06):
I really don't remember. You don't remember?

Speaker 6 (01:49:09):
No?

Speaker 4 (01:49:09):
Yeah, And can you describe this building to us? Now?
You said Mark lived on two forty eight? Yeah, and
it was Brush Road, And I'm my fami dad, tell
me what you could? So would you was Brush Road
close to to forty eighth where his house was?

Speaker 5 (01:49:25):
Yes? It wasn't wasn't It was up the road about
half a mile.

Speaker 4 (01:49:40):
So would you have gone s south or north on
two forty eight? Do you know, like towards the lake
or away from the lake?

Speaker 14 (01:49:46):
South?

Speaker 4 (01:49:46):
Away away from the lake?

Speaker 5 (01:49:48):
So it was off of you put out anue right,
So then you had to.

Speaker 4 (01:49:51):
Go two forty eighth to you could? And which way
would you go on? Ucuid? Uh?

Speaker 5 (01:49:56):
East?

Speaker 4 (01:49:57):
East? And then you would come to.

Speaker 5 (01:49:59):
Brush turn do you have to turn on the Richmond Road?

Speaker 4 (01:50:02):
Okay? Which way would you.

Speaker 5 (01:50:04):
Turn on the Richmond right? Right?

Speaker 4 (01:50:07):
And then Brush is off off for Richmond, off for
Richmond And you're describing turning left on to Brush, Yes?
And then which side was the office building.

Speaker 5 (01:50:18):
On on the left and the left.

Speaker 4 (01:50:23):
Do you think if we took you there, you'd be
able to show us the area.

Speaker 14 (01:50:28):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:50:31):
Do you remember if that baby was ever found or
I don't know or I never heard? You never heard? Yeah,
and this building was under your left? What color was it? M?

Speaker 5 (01:50:45):
I think there either white or brown? What are two
large medical buildings by by side?

Speaker 4 (01:50:56):
Can if we give you a piece of paper, can
you kind of draw the area where where you left
the baby? Mm h? How was your just pickure lit? Yeah? Yeah,
when you come back, I'm right right, I'm grabbing an overview? Deal?

Speaker 7 (01:51:17):
Is that?

Speaker 4 (01:51:18):
Is that the only other time? There's only two times?
Are you being honest with me about that?

Speaker 14 (01:51:25):
Yeah?

Speaker 12 (01:51:26):
Okay, cause like like the type of seem and explain
to you your DNA at the database in a matter
of days and it's gonna connect all those files, all
those missing unidentified persons. So if you're not being honest
with us, we're gonna know. So now is your chance
to be able to get on the front end of this.

(01:51:46):
There's nothing else you need to tell us?

Speaker 4 (01:51:48):
Yeah, okay, was there result these kids? You've forgotten another incident?

Speaker 6 (01:52:04):
No?

Speaker 5 (01:52:04):
I don't think so.

Speaker 4 (01:52:05):
Can you kind of drives how that like shows were
like maybe where Richmond and brushes.

Speaker 5 (01:52:12):
Okay, is.

Speaker 4 (01:52:17):
Hang been over here? Okay? I good.

Speaker 6 (01:52:22):
O.

Speaker 4 (01:52:23):
You can you watch a couple watchers? Oh did it make.

Speaker 5 (01:53:09):
Enough room for a two buildings?

Speaker 4 (01:53:10):
Oh that's right one. Did you buy that first building?

Speaker 5 (01:53:14):
I think so?

Speaker 4 (01:53:20):
So the baby was here, let's yeah, somewhere in that
So this is this is part of brush road? Or
is just like a driveway for the building.

Speaker 5 (01:53:28):
Oh, this is this is brush and that's the driveway
A right, So.

Speaker 4 (01:53:31):
That's a driveway right there, and the buildings here and
the other building is a great here, yes, alright. Was
there anything over in this field at all?

Speaker 6 (01:53:40):
No?

Speaker 5 (01:53:41):
Just really tall grass. There were houses here there.

Speaker 4 (01:53:49):
Houses kind of behind here, right. Was there anything else
distinguishable about the area?

Speaker 5 (01:53:56):
Hm? M m No, it's that's what it is. M so.

Speaker 4 (01:54:00):
And you birth that child is a full term baby,
they believe so.

Speaker 5 (01:54:06):
Mm uh.

Speaker 4 (01:54:07):
But it was a full term night something.

Speaker 5 (01:54:10):
Think they even looked at it.

Speaker 4 (01:54:12):
Well, you had to have I mean, you grabbed it,
you moved it. You had to have seen it. Whether
or not you're blocking that out of your memory because
you don't want to see it. But you did see it, okay,
mm but it was you believe it was a full
term baby. Not true. Well, I'm not sure you went

(01:54:33):
into ignormal labor, right, how do you think?

Speaker 6 (01:54:37):
So?

Speaker 4 (01:54:39):
Alright? And that was in ninety ninety one. Yeah, And
how do you know the difference between that child and
that child that we found? I mean, what what is
so distinguishable? Was it because of the location? That's what
remembered er reminded you of, you know, the child that

(01:55:01):
you birth on two forty eighth and the child that
you birth at the home and chick Or Heights. But
it's very similar in nature how it happened, right, Yes?

(01:55:29):
Anything else that did? Do you think that we should
know about about that case or that child?

Speaker 5 (01:55:35):
Do you know?

Speaker 4 (01:55:36):
You don't know if it's the boy or girl it.

Speaker 5 (01:55:37):
Don't you know? I did not.

Speaker 4 (01:55:40):
Did you ever think about any names for these show 'em? No? No,
you didn't want to cause you didn't want guess No, right, okay,
So that's two. So again, your DNA is not going
to be a I mean, it's gonna tell us so

(01:56:01):
and I understand, and it's going to make you to
one another bowl link mark uh, much as it did
in our case. What other ones are there? There are
none others there are no others. You're positive with that, Yeah, okay.
Any other issues that think you think are gonna come
up when your DNA hits the system here in the

(01:56:23):
next few days, any other crimes or criminal acts or well, uh,
it goes into a big database just like a finger prints,
you know. So it's called KOTS and that's where your
DNA will go and uh it will uh you know,
be checked against any other you know, crime victims, crime,

(01:56:45):
you know evidence that was collecting the prospects.

Speaker 5 (01:56:47):
Of off You don't say to any any one of 'em, know,
just these.

Speaker 4 (01:56:51):
Two children right hang out that second when you see
always doing the area on the areas and we're gonna
figure how to get your over there is the check
checked grown.

Speaker 5 (01:57:05):
Kay? So are these the medical buildings?

Speaker 4 (01:57:12):
Yeah?

Speaker 12 (01:57:12):
If you would have, I mean you could see you
were brush braced off of Richmond and then.

Speaker 4 (01:57:15):
These are orthopedic and pediatric buildings.

Speaker 5 (01:57:17):
And those are the buildings. So kind of U m hm.

Speaker 12 (01:57:30):
And understand this may have looked different.

Speaker 5 (01:57:32):
You know in nineteen ninety ninety.

Speaker 12 (01:57:33):
One you said as you came up rush from Richmond,
the building on the left right.

Speaker 4 (01:57:45):
Yeah, okay, so that would be good okay, trying to
yss so when you went.

Speaker 12 (01:57:56):
To the right side of the drive as you would
be entering.

Speaker 4 (01:57:59):
Off the right hand sides, were you so like in
this area here as where? Okay?

Speaker 12 (01:58:06):
Can you just initial buy that dot for me?

Speaker 4 (01:58:14):
Okay, I'll be right back again. A bunch of people

(01:58:42):
who like to eat it, how you obviously don't have to?
What's others? Some some food for you? Sorry, Well, we're
gonna take your hospital. Have you talked about official.

Speaker 5 (01:59:01):
Air or professional?

Speaker 4 (01:59:02):
Is there anywhere else you could think of that you
that you would be safe? Kind there anywhere you think
you would be safe?

Speaker 5 (01:59:18):
Sure, there's plenty of places, but I don't.

Speaker 4 (01:59:20):
Want Well, we're gonna take you over there and have
them check you out and make sure you're okay. And
uh uh you're you're willing to go talk to mental health?

Speaker 5 (01:59:30):
Right? Okay?

Speaker 4 (01:59:32):
Why won't your grab stuff? Will take you over with
appreciate your patience. Do you wanna take that lunch with
you or anything?

Speaker 5 (01:59:44):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (01:59:44):
I think, uh, hospitals right across the streets that would
take you over there, export over whatever.

Speaker 7 (01:59:54):
Now you've listened.

Speaker 4 (01:59:55):
Now go to your thing.