Behind the Badge: The Emotional Toll and Triumphs of a Law Enforcement Career

In this episode, Juette interviews E.W., a retired Amherst County sheriff with nearly 40 years in law enforcement. EW recounts his journey from Lynchburg ambulance work to K-9 handler, investigator, and sheriff. He shares memorable cases, the evolution of policing, and the challenges of leadership, including achieving department accreditation and navigating political pressures. E.W. reflects on the emotional toll of the job, the importance of teamwork and integrity, and his commitment to community service. Now retired, he enjoys personal projects while remaining proud of his legacy and dedication to ethical law enforcement.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:07):
I'm real happy to have Ewvyer retired chair from AMers County.
How many years of service did you end up with
having it? Well over thirty, wasn't it right?

Speaker 2 (00:17):
It was almost forty within a month or so from
being forty years.

Speaker 1 (00:20):
So you've been law enforcement for forty years, almost forty
years and just a great person to work for. I'm
really really happy to get into kind of how you
got to where you started, how you started, and how
you ended your career at the very top.

Speaker 2 (00:36):
So welcome and.

Speaker 1 (00:38):
Just let's talk a little bit about what it was
like growing up, where you grew up, what you remember,
and then how you got into your service.

Speaker 2 (00:47):
Well, I grew up in the city of Lynchburg. I
went to school in Lynchburg. A lot of people thought
I went to AMers because I was out there all
the time for my dad had a business there. Okay,
but I grew up in the city, worked in the
city as a young child. NG they used to have
what they call a private ambulance service. It wasn't run
by the city fire departments, run by a man named
Carol Ray Martin and Metropolitan Ambulance and that then that

(01:10):
turned into Lynchburg. It ended up turned into the fire Department. No,
it ended up turning into the fire department saving crew
for a while. Correct. Well, they had a light saving crew,
but they couldn't transport people. The only people could transport
was the ambulance service. So you had two different people
come to a car wreck. You'd have a restI squad
for removing people from the rerecords and stuff like that,

(01:31):
and then you'd have ambulance service come to transport you.
So you've worked on the transport side. Yeah. I was
first started at Washington Ambulances, just hanging out down there,
and there was everybody worked. There was a retired policemen,
and I had some with like my idols that I
thought a lot of, like Bobby Nash and I thought
a lot of him, and he worked there, George Toomlin
and Ronnie Coleman, a lot of the old guys.

Speaker 1 (01:55):
Old school kind of ran the city of lynch Really, yes,
So how does that transition? So you went to work
where at the Sheriff's office in Lynchburg.

Speaker 3 (02:03):
I went there in eighty five.

Speaker 2 (02:05):
The Roy Wainwright who gave me my job was the
captain of a Lynchburg Shiff's department. He talked to sheriff
and to give me a job, and I started as
a jailer in nineteen eighty five.

Speaker 1 (02:17):
Okay, and talk about talk a little bit about your
career in Lynchburg.

Speaker 2 (02:21):
Well, I worked in the jail for about four or
five years and the sheriff there was a man I
thought of him like a father. He was one of
the best men I've met my life, Lawrence Simpson, and
he wanted to get into law enforcement, which we was
in a law enforcement agency. We worked at courts, serf
summons is and basically that's what we did in jail,

(02:45):
in the jail, so it wasn't a full service. It
was not a sheriff office shriff's apartment, No, it wasn't.
But he wanted to get into a little stuff with
the law enforcement side, so he started. He wanted to
start a canine program, and uh, we had another that
tried to get it going but wasn't very successful. He
had some bad luck. And then the sheriff gave me

(03:07):
the opportunity to do it, and I was pretty glad
it went through real well, I remember your dog, big
old grif right, that was one of them. That was
the last one I had in the city. It was
the best dog I probably ever had one.

Speaker 1 (03:19):
Any good grif stories, I know you told me one
about that took you into Amerson County where you actually
didn't you find a weapon or something.

Speaker 2 (03:25):
Or I mean there's lots of things. I remember, you know,
the dog handling, you know everything, and the dog don't
know nothing. You know you But I know I went
to an arm robbery one night where cab driver was
shot and the other well he was stay up and
he shot the assailant.

Speaker 3 (03:44):
And the guy bailed out and ran.

Speaker 2 (03:45):
And when I got there, the dog got at the
police car and he was very aggressive towards siren. He
here sor he knew he was going to work. He
really wanted to go to work. And he was a
great tracking dog and a drug dog. And we started
track and I remember he was going down the street
and and all the media was there. You know, it
was a lot of cameras and everything. And the first

(04:06):
thing you're supposed to do when you get to a
scene somewhere is give your dog a break, because if
you don't, you go embarrassed, right, And I got him.
I got embursed. He didn't take a break, but he
started to go to the woods to take a break,
and I under my breath went rain, you know, which
was no. And the dog he just went back and
he basically like laid back, like I'm sorry. Dad wasn't

(04:29):
do wrong, you know, And he didn't track worth a dime.
It was awful. It was really awful. And I remember commanded.
Dave's scalf was there on the scene and he said,
he I don't know which way the guy went. Nobody
did you know, But he said, I just don't think
he went this week. I said, I don't know, he's
he's not doing very well. He said, go back and
do it again, and try it again. So I went
back to the same area where the guy got out

(04:51):
of the cab, and this time I didn't say anything,
and the dog took off and down the street and
went to the same area and broke to the left
and went down there. I don't know, it was a
hundred yards or so down there, this tall brush. There's
a guy laying there. The dog took me into it.
It was I did several I had several times. So
you learned a lot.

Speaker 3 (05:08):
I learned a lot to trust your dog.

Speaker 1 (05:10):
Yet, yeah, I think it's the biggest thing as a
canine handler is there are a lot of people that
won't take their dogs out of the car because they
don't want them to fail. Yes, but like you were
willing to put them in that position to fare.

Speaker 2 (05:20):
I had learned the hard way. I learned a lot
of stuff from him. I mean I told people when
I talked to the academy sometimes I used to tell them
my stories and people couldn't believe you telling yourself. But
how do you make a good police officer? Learned from
somebody else's mistakes and they I'll tell the truth and stuff.
I remember on a drug search one night we had
found the dog had found drugs and a lot of

(05:41):
places all over this house. And there was a little
room probably wasn't fifteen by fifteen. I remember it was
a or a clown of the share sitting there. It
was a stand up vacuum cleaner, a TV for them,
all the old TVs, and I remember it was one
of the little RC occupant little toys trucks, you know,
a little truck, ARCI truck. And the dog went in

(06:01):
and I was just they said, well you just run
all their rooms e W for me And I don't
we don't found all the dope. I didn't need too much.
That's going to look it out. He runs in, he
grabs a vacuum clean and starts throwing around. I said,
leave it alone. I walked out the room, and the
investigator was Bill Dance back then, okay, and he was vice,
I'll never forget it. And he comes in and looks

(06:23):
and pulls the bagg or the vacaton and shows it
to me. I thought, got me again. It's it's a
humbling experience of working dog. It really is. Oh, I
was most rewarding thing I ever did. If I wouldn't have
got old, I would have I would have stayed there.
I had no idea I was gonna be surefed and
didn't have any unmas, any admonistors to be the sheriff

(06:44):
I didn't want. So you work in Lynchburg. Let's run
through that a little bit.

Speaker 1 (06:48):
So your career, you you probably when did you go
Did you go through the law enforcement.

Speaker 2 (06:53):
Academy with the Sheriff's office? Yes, I did. I was
before after you got your dog. Oh I did that
way before. Oh no, I did it after that. All okay,
so you get a dog, you've gone through the back.
Then you had to go through the academy.

Speaker 1 (07:06):
Yes, for law enforcement, yes, two thousand and then you
get out on the street. Yes, talk a little bit
like I don't think people appreciate, like with all the
technology and everything else that we have, like the work
that people like you, Ronnie Coleman, all the people that
were on the tack team and everything else did with
very little technology. It was a lot of like knowledge

(07:27):
of the city, knowledge of tactics and things like that.
I don't think people realize that, actually, didn't they shoot
somebody at Heritage High School?

Speaker 2 (07:35):
Yes, this sniper. Yes, And I don't think we've got
he had a gun to another police officer's head. Yeah,
and they had to kill him. And it was I
wasn't on a tack team then. I wasn't there that
night with it.

Speaker 1 (07:47):
But I mean that's the kind of stuff that these
guys dealt with. They didn't talk about it, but yes,
they they are the reason that I think things have
gotten so much better.

Speaker 2 (07:55):
I don't realize the training and goes into be a
policeman and then especially on the special ops and all
the other things, k nines and all the investigations, all
that stuff and there's so much training there and this
mandated stuff, and it's just you have people in school
more when you do on the street. Yet to be
honest with you, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (08:13):
And so talk a little bit about the time in
Lynchburgh working with the Special Operations guys.

Speaker 2 (08:18):
What was that like.

Speaker 3 (08:18):
For Commanded Shockley UH and C. T.

Speaker 2 (08:21):
Carter was my hero. They're the ones that asked me
to be UH, to come be a part of the
tag team with them guys back then, and that was
the only ones I've ever done it. And it was
such an honor to be with those guys, it really was.
And we would train and of course they would shoot
a lot. They shot a lot, and of course they
made me shoot with them, and I never was a shot.
They were they were grave shots. They had a doll.

Speaker 3 (08:43):
That's what it said.

Speaker 2 (08:44):
The dog. That's that was the only reason I was then
attack team because the dog. There's no question about it.
But I remember we going in places and the dog
we had, our guy was looking for for murder one
night and the street units saw the guy and put
a perimeter on the up at eleventh and Wise, and
the tag team shot gas in the house and the

(09:07):
UH call out and yeah, called out and everything. Plus
they last banged it whatever, and they went in and
they couldn't find the guy in the house. And of
course they asking everybody, are you sure you kept a
get out on the house and whatever, and uh he
said yes, and I'll never forget it. CT always at
the was the end of stack. I nefinely went in.
I was at the back because the dog was gonna
try to get everybody. Yeah, and so uh he asked

(09:31):
me to bring the dog in. He said, we can't
find him. And the guy they're wearing, he didn't come
up this house. He's in the house somewhere. And I
sent the dog again, and the dog cleared upstairs already,
and then he goes down to the butt. These old
houses back in the old days had coal bends where
trucks were back of. But the coal truck went back
up and shoot coal in it. And they had a
furnace in the house. And when the dog went down

(09:53):
the steps, uh I and there was a platform then
turned and goes this way. And when the dog went down,
I seen the dog. He'd go black it and I
told him, I said, he's in the basement, and he said,
how do you know I said, I can read my
dog read him.

Speaker 3 (10:06):
I mean I could read him, you know.

Speaker 2 (10:07):
And it wasn't in the basement area but a few seconds,
and I heard him just whining and barking. You ain't
making a noise in bark And he said, what's the
matter with him? I said, he can't get to him.
And so of course they took you bunker guys. And
it was in the basement, and uh, they found a
gun to see it was forty four magnum laying up
under steps, and uh, they wasn't down there. And when

(10:29):
he he was in a coal bin, he was hired
any coal bind way, he couldn't he couldn't. He couldn't.
He couldn't get to him. Dog couldn't get to him. Yes,
and uh so anyway, uh, they opened the coal bind
up and he was yelling for the guy to come out,
and he wouldn't come out, and of course we tried
to they wanted. He kicked the door shut where the
dog couldn't get to him, and then he goes at
the back and the dog falls over in the cold

(10:51):
bind down and it was deep down there, so he
couldn't get out to go get him. And the guys
on the outside caught him when he ran out the basement.
You know, to get out of there. You had to
still get your dog out, didn't you. Yeah, had to
go get him out of that. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (11:01):
But they was just ecstatic that, you know that the
dog turned out.

Speaker 2 (11:06):
Nobody got shot. Oh yeah, Oh, we had another one,
you know, we had another one's brocade in the house,
and we send him in and he first thing he
went was a real nice place. The first thing he
did went into the big room where Rugg was and
Markey's place. Yeah, yeah, Grif was here, Yeah, and uh
basically went in and got up in the bathroom, was

(11:27):
balking and carrying on, and they found this guy hiding
up in the tail closet, you know, up in the closet.
It's just amazing. So where did you go? You didn't
train around here for you dog? I went to Porstmouth
and trained at Portsmouth Police Academy. I've been here probably
six or seven different times, like the twelve weeks schools
and the last one I the last school I went

(11:49):
to was m vy Mole was a retired troop or
who was very knowledgeable to probably the best, one of
the best. Ben Bennett O. Ben bennett'st the best. I
think he is the best god. But he trained the
guy that trained me too, was a guy in Rick
Humphrey's Okay.

Speaker 1 (12:05):
So, and I think what's really cool about that lineage
is a lot of those guys went on to train
the dogs that went to the seal teams.

Speaker 2 (12:13):
Yeah, they went to most everybody, Kevin Keeling, all those guys,
Mo Joseph, they went to Blackwater and ultimately and one
of the guys that used to be in K nine
in Chesapeake, I think he ended up owning one of
those companies. I don't know which. So they they're like
they were on cutting edge on the warm terror and
they oh, absolutely absolute. So yes, I think it's a

(12:35):
really cool transition.

Speaker 1 (12:36):
It was so talk about you leave Lynchburgh, you decide, hey,
I want to go out.

Speaker 2 (12:42):
I went through a divorced Yeah, I was going through
a divorce. My kids went to school there. Yeah, man,
you know, I fought for the custody of them, and
you know I had the physical custoy of both of them,
and so I wanted to be there at the schools.

Speaker 3 (12:55):
And at the time the sheriff had reached out Timmy ESM.

Speaker 2 (12:59):
We would have come right there and the medium and
I met I met him one day and he offered
me the job.

Speaker 1 (13:04):
And so ambers though you grew you know, you kind
of grew up there. Everybody every I don't think there's
anybody I've ever run into. And Amas kind of didn't
know e w Byer.

Speaker 3 (13:14):
Well.

Speaker 2 (13:15):
I did know a lot of people there. I was
really forced and I have a lot of friends there.
Very fortunate. It's home to me. Even though I went
to school in the city, I now a day of
the girl from Glass. Everybody went after the Amors girl. Yeah, okay,
all right.

Speaker 1 (13:28):
So as you transitioned, Uh, you kind of had your
career there at Amherst. You ended up as an investigator, correct, yes,
right before you for sheriff. Anything that stands out, I
know actually you actually called me on a case. People
don't think about the small crimes that lead into bigger crimes.
But do you remember the one that you worked at
a Walmart.

Speaker 2 (13:47):
That gost the old ten thousand dollars that stuff? Yeah,
that was that was Uh, I just back then, I
wasn't investigator. I was just came out handling, just taking
a report and going in and uh to be on
with you. You know, I received a call the guy one day.
He told me, he said, hey, man, I seen this
guy walk out with the TV set and put in
his car. And then, you know, I watched him. He's

(14:09):
looking around like is anybody watching me? And he says,
he goes back in. He comes right back with a
lawnmower in a box, and he puts a lawnmow on
his car and he left. You know, I said, So
I went into Walmart and talked to the Lost Prevention
people after they go back and look and see if
they't seen anything on the video, and of course he did,
and so I ended up working that case. It was

(14:30):
a poem shop then wrapped straight from Walmart, and I
went up there and talked to them, and the guy
had come in there and he bought some things and
ended up I kept going back and forth to Walmart
and another pone shop in Lynchburg, and it turns out
that Walmart family all kind of footage where this guy
was a heroin attic and he stoled over ten thousand

(14:52):
dollars worth of stuff in the last month. I mean
trolling motors or boats. I forgot how many laptop computers
I mean he stole with everything is steal. But it's
just the little things getting to the bigger thing.

Speaker 3 (15:03):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (15:04):
You just worked it all the way through.

Speaker 3 (15:05):
Yeah, I know.

Speaker 2 (15:05):
I talked to people.

Speaker 1 (15:07):
So talk a little bit about what it was like
to run for sheriff in the county you grew up
in and everybody knew you. Like, what what did you
think the key to your campaign when you ran for sheriff?
Because you you ran in a contested race. There was
what how many people ran when you ran?

Speaker 2 (15:25):
It was three one time, I think it was three
or either four. I know it was three. It was
a highly contested case. A lot of people. Uh.

Speaker 1 (15:36):
But so you had to run a campaign and you
had to you had to people.

Speaker 3 (15:39):
To really help. I had a girl, really a lady
to help.

Speaker 2 (15:42):
Me, and she she was at the time, she was
really good at that. She really devoted her time to
help me get in it. She did a good job
and then its last time with the girl was excellent.

Speaker 1 (15:52):
Yeah, and so talk a little bit. So you were
sheriff for eight years, correct, yes, two terms?

Speaker 2 (15:57):
Two terms?

Speaker 1 (15:59):
So first day in office in twenty sixteen, correct, What
was it like coming in there? After you win the election,
and you come in there and you realize I'm in
charge of all this.

Speaker 2 (16:14):
It's gout rich and I mean it's it didn't start
that day. It started really the day after election. You know,
you know you'd won, and you hit so many things
that you wanted to do better. You know, you wanted
to make this feel like you want to make the
place better. And one of the biggest things I really
wanted to do was get us a credit that I
felt like that was a real important thing to the

(16:36):
department and made everybody on the same page. And you
wasn't like Bonnie and Andy. You know what I'm saying.
You do things the right way. And so you were
in the sheriff's apartment for how many years were you
there before you? I came in two thousand, So you were.

Speaker 1 (16:49):
There for sixteen years at that point. Rrect how many
years of that sixteen years had they tried to be accredited?

Speaker 2 (16:57):
I was told they tried the whole time to do that.
And uh, and and you know, as I know how
hard you worked to help me get that. Uh, it's
a hard thing to do. You just don't you just don't.
You don't call somebody up say youre gonna get a credit,
then you're gonna be a credit. You got to show
that you'd show all these proofs, and and I was
been dowy and that I didn't know anything about that stuff.

(17:19):
You know, I didn't know anything. I was just hiring
people and and hoping they would do the right thing
and do what was supposed to be done to get
us a credit. And it turns out that after the
first term, when I didn't get a credit, that we
didn't even apply. Then we hadn't applied because when the
people would come look at they says, you're not you know,
we're close. And then so what was it?

Speaker 1 (17:41):
So what was it like that first term as far
as you have all these things that you want to
get done? How did I mean, what was that like
as a sheriff to be like, hey, I want to
get this done. What was the hardest part during that
timeframe that you felt like, man, I wish that I had.

Speaker 2 (17:56):
This well, getting resources and getting people just that catered
to to what you want your vision? Okay, really, so
what was your vision those eight years? What were your
I really I was getting up in age. I mean
I k you, I was really I wasn't gonna work
seventy years old. I wanted to get out. And you know,
I've already worked past all my leos money. I never

(18:17):
got any of that, but I'm good with that. But
I really I wanted my integrity was something I promised
the people I'd get the accreditation.

Speaker 3 (18:28):
I wanted that.

Speaker 2 (18:29):
And even you, I mean your dedications that you helped me,
and you really was a big part of that. Yeah,
all the it starts at the top, and you had
to make that decision. And well, it was hard. You
know a lot of times its real hard. It's manpower
getting resources. You got to have people designated to do
certain things, and uh, it pulls away from one thing

(18:51):
to get the other thing done. It's hard.

Speaker 3 (18:52):
It really is hard.

Speaker 2 (18:53):
Well, I think too, you have people pulling the opposite direct.
You had people that want me to get it, you
really did.

Speaker 3 (18:59):
You had people to get it down.

Speaker 2 (19:00):
Yeah, little while absolutely they didn't want me to get
it because it made them look bad. Yeah, it made
them look me. And it wasn't about me. The accreditation
is not about me, right, It's not about me. It
was about the battlement of the apartment. Uh, it's it
wasn't anything to make me look good. I don't. I
don't need to look good. So in any cases that
stand out to you your first four years, I know

(19:24):
we did a lot of drugs stuff. We did a lot.
We was we were probably topping the area for US drugs.
I think a lot of people or social media one,
especially running for sheriff. It wasn't any social media for that,
you know what I'm saying. Everything and social media is
a big, big thing that it can hurt you and

(19:46):
it can help you, you know, but it's it's something
we didn't have to worry about in my earlier part
of my careers. We didn't have all that. You just
put a press release, right, you know. We didn't have
you know, somebody showing up at a scene at a ho
aside and trying to film stuff right there and asked
you questions they know you can't answer, well you shouldn't answer, right, So,

(20:08):
like you were one of the more hands on sheriffs
that I've ever worked for. What is it like to be.

Speaker 1 (20:13):
A sheriff in a small town, a smaller area, like
people calling you all the time.

Speaker 2 (20:18):
Yeah, well, you know, I remember one Valentine's Day I
was going to get a Valentine's card from my girlfriend,
and my daughter called and said, Daddy, where are you at?
And I went to Walmart, which is four minutes from
my house. I was in there for two hours. I

(20:39):
couldn't get out of that. My kids didn't want to
go to stores with me, you know, because man, that's
that's part of the job. People didn't realize that. Even
my fiancee, you know, we was at a graduation one time,
and it was one of her siblings were graduating, and
it was important time for them, you know what I mean,
It was really important time, but wasn't about me.

Speaker 3 (20:58):
It was about them.

Speaker 2 (21:00):
And someone walked up and wanted to ask me questions
about something and went on in and kept on going,
and she.

Speaker 3 (21:07):
Got kind of fretted on. These people realize you're off.

Speaker 2 (21:09):
You never off when you're the sheriff, You're never off right,
You're never off, And and that was a hard thing
for her to realize. You know, it caused a whole
lot of stress between us. But because you didn't, don't
I think what you had told me before is during
those eight years, you really didn't take a vacation. No,
I mean, we used to go to bike week every

(21:30):
year just to get away. The last time I went
was the Yeah I want well fifteen I went to sixteen.
I went in October of sixteen. I never won again
until did you go to this? Did you go when
you retired? Yeah? I had been to Bike Week anymore,
we've been, We've been trayed. She took me on a cruise.
She took me on a cruise, my first guy boat.

(21:51):
Huh yeah, and it took me and uh that was
a big trip. And matter of fact, she's booked another
one for me this year. We go on in February again.
So you liked it.

Speaker 3 (21:59):
I enjoyed it.

Speaker 2 (22:00):
I really did it. I called COVID. I called COVID
on the fourth day and didn't know I had it.
You know, I just felt bad and it rained on
us every time we had a excuragion, like she had
planned a nice boat sailboat ride across the Caribbean and stuff,
you know. Then San Juan whatever it was, the name
of town was Saint Martin's Okay, but yeah, it was

(22:23):
fun and I really enjoyed it. Okay, you don't get
much time to relax.

Speaker 1 (22:28):
So uh, yeah, vacation is not something there you had.
You had several catastrophic events. Just talk about what it's
like to be a sheriff in a small town. You
have all the pressures of people coming to you and
talking to you and giving you information and everything else.
Was like, what is it like when you get that
phone call that says one of your officers has been shot?

(22:51):
I had it, I know what was it like for you?

Speaker 2 (22:55):
Rough? Okay, eleven thirty. I think the first one was
the matter. And he was shot in the head, and uh,
I got there for the ambulances. He moved him. I
was there that night. I got dressed and was there
before they moved him and pulled up and of course, uh,
he's bleed, bleeding profusely from a head, and of course

(23:18):
I don't know if he's gonna make it, to be
honest with him, and uh, I jumped in the patrol car.
I talked to the other two deputies there was there
was several of them. There was three deputies, two deputies
there and a town officer over there, and everybody's kind
of you know, and shot. Yeah, it's all messed up.
And uh, I go to his house and uh get

(23:39):
his wife up and they had a small child at
the time. Just a baby, and she's very young too,
And I drove her to the hospital, probably scared of
the deaf. I know I did, it ain't probably too it.
I was scared of the deaf and got out of
there and and went in the room. And like I said,
I didn't. I didn't I want her to have time
with him. It wasn't about me being in with him.
So I went out in the court. So I'm going

(24:00):
back to the scene and see what's going.

Speaker 3 (24:02):
On there and learn later on. He got out that night.

Speaker 2 (24:06):
Which is a miracle, by the grace of God, he
got out, you know that night. He was just a blessing. Yeah, yeah,
oh he has He is a He's a great police officer,
he really is. And his mental toughness got in through it.
I mean he was on the radio leading his troops
that night, just like if he wasn't even shot. It
was just amazing that he could do that. But that

(24:27):
was That was the first one, and of course we
had some other ones too. But the one.

Speaker 1 (24:31):
The one thing that I think people don't realize is
I think people talk about when a president has to
sign an order to send people into harms away, but
when you assume the role of the sheriff.

Speaker 2 (24:41):
You're doing that every day.

Speaker 3 (24:42):
Every day.

Speaker 2 (24:43):
Well, that's the same as it's attack any of them,
not only the tacticle office, but tactical officer. You're putting
your deputies that in high risk situations all the time.
The day you put your uniform and get in that
patrol card, you don't know if you're coming home that night.

Speaker 1 (24:58):
But what what is what I'd like you to talk
about more than anything, is what is it like to
be at the very top and have to have to
look at the wife of somebody that's just been shot?

Speaker 2 (25:11):
As as the shriff. You don't know what to tell them,
You really don't. You pray a lot, You pray a lot.

Speaker 1 (25:17):
But I mean, what what what goes through your mind?
I feel like there'd be so many different things.

Speaker 2 (25:22):
I'll tell you what I feel like. They have. You
have survivors guilt. You have all the guilt of you
do you know? You see and I'm sorry, I'm sorry,
I'm sorry. It's not your They're saying it's not your fault, sheriff,
but you feel like it is because you send them there.
You have them a job to do, and they work
for you, you know, but it is. It is gut wrenching.
It's really gut wrenching. It's people don't realize the stress

(25:44):
level that you have on you. They don't have any idea.
You know, we talk about you cut grass. You cut
your grass, and you say, we got other people apart
you're the sheriff, the ass and all them are wonderful people,
but the sheriff isn't want it. All one things go bad.
They don't save the major's name. It's always the shriff.

(26:05):
And uh. I used to cut my grass. I remember,
I have a phone. Land on my zero turn right here,
and land cut the ground. I had to look at
it every so often because you couldn't hear it from
the motor. Because if you got a swat call and
you got situations, they got to make decisions and they
got to call you and asked that. When you go
to church, everything had to get up, walk out of church.
You know, your hospital, doctors, whatever you're there, you still

(26:28):
have to have that phone with you. I did away
with my home phone as soon as I retired. I
did away with it. I did, I did away with it.
I didn't need it anymore. I just got a cell phone.
My immediate family and close friends still have my number.
They can't call me. But I don't keep up with
the social media or other church for me. And when
I left, it's done. I don't follow them. I don't

(26:51):
wish them no harm. I still think a lot of
other people that worked for me, although it wasn't many left,
but I don't keep up with it. Their show. They
can do it the way they want to do it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (27:03):
So one of the cases that I would like you
just to talk about, because I feel like there's been
a lot of media attention about it. You got blamed
for a lot of stuff that you had nothing to
do with. You had employees that made mistakes, and you
have to own those mistakes. But I remember having a
conversation with you a couple of years before.

Speaker 2 (27:22):
You were tired and you're like, this case, I can't
know what one you're talking about. Yeah, I can't. It
haunted me. It haunted me. This was eleven ninety some
year old lady is leaning in to be asleep, right,
ain't bothering anybody? Yeah, and her daughter is sitting in
another room reading a book. Good Christian type people, and
I'm not using religion, but they were good people.

Speaker 3 (27:44):
Yes, And somebody goes up.

Speaker 2 (27:47):
To the wonder and shoots through the winder and kills
the old lady, the ninety some of you old and
then shoots the daughter for nothing, right of course, you
know now you got a phone call for that. Oh yeah,
I was there. I went to everyone, every single homicide.

Speaker 3 (28:05):
I was there east one of them.

Speaker 2 (28:06):
I think you were there for any major anything there,
I was there. And of course, you know, we worked
investigat us. We had a good team and they worked
hard to We didn't have any clues, we didn't have nothing.

Speaker 3 (28:18):
We started that with nothing and.

Speaker 2 (28:21):
Is pretty incredible in and of itself. Yeah, I owe
us to get it solved, right. And then what happened happened.
And then, of course, you know, the common Attorney got
blamed for a lot of stuff that he had nothing
to do with. And that was more of a vendetta
of them against me, and they going after him because
he's my father in law. I missed father in law,

(28:41):
you know. And that's all that was. And uh, but
what does it feel like when you know the truth
for all that? Well, I had I had people calling
me news agencies, I had the guy does the podcast
he wanted to talk about it, and we have ethics.
I can't talk about it, and so does the common
with attorney, right, And the reason you can't talk about

(29:02):
it because you don't want to. First of all, I
don't want to try move to to AMers County with
all this stuff. They were running a campaign and talking
all this stuff about the crime scene and everything. They
didn't know anything about it because the stuff they were
reporting was not true, right, And the people they were blaming, Yeah,
it wasn't true. You see, it came out by the
grace of God that convicted the boy with ambers. People

(29:24):
convicted this boy. And I didn't watch you trial. I
didn't go up there. I didn't stay with it, but
I did set my mind. I wanted somebody on the
case to go at it a different way, to try
to fix what that person had messed up.

Speaker 1 (29:38):
So you would accomplish your mission of getting accredited. But
this case haunted.

Speaker 2 (29:42):
Oh it's something I went to my grave. It would
have killed me. It really worried me all the time.

Speaker 1 (29:48):
But what is it like to be in a room
and you have to make that decision as a sheriff
to say I am I am going to commit the resources.
That's a huge risk as a sheriff. It's a huge
risk to say I'm going to commit the resources to
fix this. First you had to own your mistake, that
your people.

Speaker 2 (30:04):
But I couldn't. I couldn't tell. I couldn't tell anything
about it. Then I couldn't say anything about it, right,
and so you know, it was haunting to I remember
going to see the victim in the hospital. I drove
over to see her, you know, and checked on it.
And I really care, but I still do. They're wonderful people.
They're wonderful. Of course they're mad. To me, they're mad

(30:25):
and everybody there. But I couldn't, you know, I couldn't.
How do you go to a scene and say you
to pick a gun up?

Speaker 3 (30:33):
How do you do that?

Speaker 2 (30:33):
I mean, it's say a b and sees the police work.
I mean, how do you do that?

Speaker 3 (30:39):
But it happened.

Speaker 2 (30:40):
I didn't do it. I didn't do it. I didn't.
I know you didn't do it. I know you didn't
do it. But at the end of the day, but
you know, by the grace of God, the truth came out,
and the truth came out, and uh, the citizens of
AMers seeing the evidence there and was able to convict
this monster. He's a monster.

Speaker 1 (30:57):
I think the crazy thing about it, And obviously we're
both are extremely biased towards the Koma's Attorney's office. But
I think the thing that I look at is where
else would you have a case where you have two
sworn police officers who testify in a case and that
are not believable and they still will.

Speaker 2 (31:18):
I just I know the Comma attorney did what he's
supposed to do, and he was and that was all
about me. They're going after him because of me. That's
the only reason that that is. That's that's what I
don't like. He's he's doing a great job. He is,
he cares, he's a real good loving man, a kid,

(31:38):
loves his family and does it what he's supposed to
do well.

Speaker 3 (31:41):
He and Amber does too.

Speaker 1 (31:42):
Yeah, they shouldered a heavy burden by having people run
a campaign first against you, saying that you didn't know
what you're doing and all your people made all these mistakes. However,
on the other other side, then they blame your relationship
and other relationships for the reason the case got messed
up and really really drove aways between you and the

(32:05):
family and the Commost Attorney's office and the family and
the reality is you owned your mistake. The Commost attorney
did the best they could with.

Speaker 2 (32:15):
What they had to head.

Speaker 1 (32:16):
Yeah, and they dont even now after all the all
the screw ups.

Speaker 2 (32:21):
You found an investigator that worked at when I when
I hired Chris Persons, retired Hampton police officer. I tell
you what that was. That was God sent to me.
What it was. He very knowledgeable, He worked time in
and him and Jordan both worked on that case a lot.
And Jordan's Sundrick who was on the Greg Jones, and

(32:42):
Clay the boss, so Clay, all of them, they worked
tirelessly on that case to try to get this thing
fixed right and uh and by the grace of all
we were able to do that and get a conclusion
where we can convict him. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (32:55):
And like I said, I think the thing that I
look at is despite all the negative that your successor.

Speaker 3 (33:01):
Probably to say a lot of things.

Speaker 2 (33:03):
I wanted to say a lot of things a long time,
and I've always been very vocal, but I had to
bite my tongue and I had a lot of old
sheriffs that I really admired a lot and still respect
him a lot retired and Mike Grahant was one to mean,
you you got to take take the heat, boss, and
just take it and it'll come at any end and
the truth will prevail.

Speaker 1 (33:22):
And so what's the So what after everything said and done,
what do you think the truth is?

Speaker 2 (33:28):
Like?

Speaker 1 (33:28):
What do you want to put out there of like
what happened at that scene and ultimately what happened on
to his conviction.

Speaker 2 (33:37):
What happened at the scene was somebody picked the weapon,
not at the scene, but at the at the search one.
Somebody picked that gun up that day, and of course
we all were ecstatic that they found. That's what we
were looking for, was the gun. We was at two
different places. I was at the other house with the
state police and we picked the gun up. And the

(33:58):
person that picked the gun up says he didn't pick
the gun up.

Speaker 3 (34:02):
And I mean that, I mean, how can I change that?

Speaker 2 (34:07):
You can't. I can't, You can't, I can't. But I
had to sat there and Edith for several years that
you know, I got to blame for what and stuff
like that, which I'm not I'm not about who gets
to blame. I'm not a worried about that and I'm
done with it. That's just yeah.

Speaker 1 (34:21):
But my question to you is this is I feel like,
I remember, we won't mention the news agency, but you
told me you didn't care.

Speaker 2 (34:29):
For him, and I didn't understand that a bunch I've
ever seen. I tell you right now, when I watch
the news, I watched anybody but them. Yes, I watched
Channel seven. I watched Channel seven. It's all I say.
Channel seven is a great Channel ten that great news. Yeah.
I mean, I've never seen anything like it. I just so,
what was the hardest about that?

Speaker 1 (34:50):
When you look at like you, I think a lot
of people are like, hey, the media doesn't do this.
The media doesn't do this, But you actually experienced it.
What what does it feel like for me?

Speaker 2 (35:00):
It puts out what they want to put out about people,
and and to me, you ought to have facts before
you do that. You should have facts in case now
just what somebody said, and you should research what you're
doing and know what you're talking about before you put
out things, because you can ruin a person's reputation in

(35:21):
the community, like and I think if some people would
hold them accountable for that and start sueing them, you'd
stop that you really would, But I don't. I don't know.

Speaker 3 (35:31):
I just don't know.

Speaker 1 (35:32):
I just think, like for me, I think about when
I think about the media, I think it should be
an unbiased fact.

Speaker 2 (35:39):
It should be factual, it should be facts.

Speaker 1 (35:41):
Right, and if you mess up, own it, own it. Yeah,
you had owned it. When do you think they're going
to own the fact that what they report on for
the last two or three years as well.

Speaker 2 (35:52):
I don't watch them, so I don't know. I don't
know what they do anymore. I just well, they haven't
said what you said. No, I'm just telling you I don't.
I don't watch them. I just I'll go to relative's
house and I'll be up there and there I turn
it that. I tell them to turn that off. I'm
not gonna watch it. It's just and my everybody in
my family and was friends pretty much the same field,

(36:13):
the same with them. It's the same politics. Politics can
ruin a lot of it. I'm not a politician, right,
I'm not a politician. And I didn't get in anybody's pocket.
I didn't. I didn't get anybody's pocket. I can't say
that we are the other people. I wouldn't in anybody's pocket.
If if somebody big got stopped for drunk driving, they

(36:36):
gotta take it. They got locked up. I had relatives
to get speed tickets. Members have family members got speed ticket.
I had family members got locked up. That didn't change
the thing, you know. I mean, that's the way it is,
you know. And I never called one of my deputies
and told them to get rid of a summons or anything.

(36:56):
I never did that, uh and unforced. And you know,
I had people that say they voted for me and
gave me money for contributions, and I said, you wanted
me to do my job, didn't you you know? And
so you think, based on your experience with law enforcement
running as the sheriff, you do have those people that
give money and then expect something return later. Oh absolutely.

Speaker 1 (37:20):
I I just think the hard people.

Speaker 2 (37:23):
I had companies that gave me money and these persons
dead and gone. And I loved him like a friend.
But he didn't want anything for what did He didn't
ask for nothing, But you know, but some people do. Yeah,
there's an expectation.

Speaker 1 (37:40):
So talk a little bit about what it's like like
when you walked out of the office for the last
time at the Sheriff's office.

Speaker 2 (37:49):
What was that like for you?

Speaker 1 (37:50):
I felt like it almost was like you felt like
you gained wings and you're ready to fly out of there.

Speaker 2 (37:55):
Well it felt good, but it was it was different too.
I worked my whole life, you know, that was my life, right,
forty years of work, and I worked other jobs pillar
with my uncles and contractors and stuff, you know. But
I'm talking about a job to support my family and whatever.
I did that my whole life basically, So it was
kind of, uh, it was. It was kind of scary.

(38:18):
I guess what you want to call it. You know
what am I gonna do tomorrow? I ain't got to
I ain't gotta have a police call. I had a
police call in my yard for years, you know what
I mean? And uh now I don't. But uh it
was a relief though I could lay down and not
where break the phone used. I used to hate the
phone to ring because you knew something about it, southing bad.
It happened when the phone rung at your house at

(38:38):
late at night. It was somebody's hurt, somebody's did or
somebody's been hurt seriously or whatever. Old one of your
people's hurt.

Speaker 1 (38:47):
Yeah, So like as a as a sheriff, as you
go through that, I just think it'd just be extremely
difficult to be the one that is ultimately responsible for
all that, and it had to be a relief not
to have that responsibility.

Speaker 2 (39:01):
It was.

Speaker 3 (39:01):
I'm very fortunate that.

Speaker 2 (39:05):
I was. I felt like good friends with all the
sheriffs in the area. We were all very close and
uh and the chiefs too, and we worked with everybody
and got along with everybody. I thought that was a
big part of everything, as far as I could reach
out and call somebody and I'd have resources coming from
everywhere in the state. Police was just absolutely incredible to

(39:26):
They always there for me and anything I needed. So
what do you think at the end of your eight years,
what would you say your legacy was at the Sheriff's
office and amors you got it accredited. What else do
you think there was for you? That's a big question,
you would I mean the accreditation was the top of
my list. I remember the night I got it and
the board was recognized us, and then people from the

(39:51):
agency was there that gives us accreditation. And you were there.
I lived you know, filapsing and you were there too,
and I told work at night, I said, this is
it for me, buddy, And he said, what do you mean.
I said, that's just what I promised that i'd get done,
and this is what I set my goal. We Oh, no,
you're gonna run again. I said, no, I'm not. I
didn't leave because anybody or anybody beat me. I think

(40:13):
I could have beat any of them, I know, but
I just didn't want to.

Speaker 3 (40:18):
I was done.

Speaker 2 (40:19):
Would your service? I'm done. I did what I wanted
to do, and by the grace of guard I got
the opportunity of service. Sheriff. I'm very lucky, humble, tackle
to death, just happy happy. So let's go back a
little bit. There's a couple of things I'd like to
cover with you. I'm biased, obviously, but what about your

(40:42):
canine program. I felt like you we had.

Speaker 3 (40:46):
We had a great we had a great program.

Speaker 2 (40:48):
Uh. And I really was. Of course, I was a
former can down handler, so I was pro cane down anyway.
And we had a we had a lot of dogs,
and we had, you know, one for every shift, and
and a lot of times we were going to other
ages is helping them all the time, you know. And uh,
and I was canine is a very important tool to
a police department. In a Surest department, they really are

(41:09):
I mean, you got they can do everything, they really can.
They're forcing. I mean when I was trained the first time,
I remember the guy was telling me, said, a dog,
if he could talk, he could tell you when you
cook chicken, you walk into your house at night time,
he could tell you having chicken and it's gonna have
a garlic, salt, butter and all this stuff and the chicken.
If they could talk, you know, the thoses are that good,

(41:29):
you know, it's just amazing. And I remember on calls
where people were tied to the skies drugs with moth balls.
I mean, I've had actual grease packed and kilos of
cocaine the dog found, you know. I mean it's just
it's such amazing coffee. You can't you can't fool them
like that. But they're human, do I mean like human too.
They feel bad some days and they make mistakes too,

(41:49):
you know, and that always it's not always an one day.
It always seems like the off days are on the
days you have to certify that. Yeah, oh god, I
used to be I I remember one of those days.
So I shouldn't tell him myself, but it was the
first one. I was down in Portsmouth and this dog
was just succeptually good. And I walked into a room

(42:10):
and the guy had rode on the chalkboard. He knew
I was nervous this crap, you know, and he rode
on the wall. There's no drugs in this room or
something in one room. And I went in in DAGs
and running room and he's I done, got him pinpoint
checking everything, and uh, the dog wouldn't find anything. And
he's he got to call it. You gotta call it blank.
And that's a big thing to say blank, because if
you miss something miss, you're gone, you know. I said this,

(42:34):
there's nothing in this room. So we go to the
next room and were running things and it's old school.
It's abandoned, so it's no furniture and whatever. It's a
desk there, it's a sink on the wall. The old
schools had sinks on the wall like kids would wash
their hand, you know. And so it was a cocaine
sitting on the sink air and with a running room
and dog and I'm staying there with him. He said,
what do you stay with this room, and I says,

(42:55):
I don't think it's nothing. In the I don't, I
don't think it's nothing. And the dogs cherking me to
the can. I said the camp he said, you lucky,
said you're lucky. You trust your dog and you wash
your dog. And but it was just, you know, it's
just amazing that the things I learned with that dog,
and uh my god, he was just exceptional. He was

(43:19):
a good one. So talk about your last crazy, last
crazy dog. I'm gonna give you. I'm gonna give you
an intro to this, uh full disclosure. Uh.

Speaker 1 (43:28):
We went to a you brought the guy that trained
that dog, came out here and did a seminar, and
I think we sent four people to the er. My
dog bit somebody through the hand, somebody else's dog bit
a leg or something.

Speaker 2 (43:41):
We had four four er visits.

Speaker 1 (43:44):
And I distinctly remember the instructor saying the guy in
the bite suit, which was me for your dog with
your dog was like a like a spring.

Speaker 3 (43:53):
Yeah he was a Tasmanian devil.

Speaker 2 (43:55):
Yes, yeah, I remember.

Speaker 1 (43:57):
And uh the instructions were handlers stand and still the
decoy will walk into you. So it was it was
a bite on the It was a bite on the
chest right there, right there, and that dog bit me
right at the top of the neck, his nose, and
you were so excited hard you were like, I was like,
get him off of me, get him off of me,

(44:17):
and you were just laughing and you were.

Speaker 2 (44:19):
I'll never forget that either, by the fact it's a
video somewhere that.

Speaker 1 (44:22):
Because I remember you squealing like he's an ass eater,
he's an ass sater, and I was like, you need
to get him off of me. I can feel his
we knows he's going to detach any time and gonna
bite me in the neck.

Speaker 2 (44:32):
That dog, he told me said, I had him right there.
People didn't realize what you have to do train these dogs.
They think you'd be You know, you have to You're surviving,
right you let you let him rule you.

Speaker 3 (44:45):
He gonna rule you. He's gonna eat you up.

Speaker 2 (44:46):
And this dog was down in the same semino and
I ain't gonna say the word. He said, that dog's
gonna f you up. And uh, I had him up
by the thing right here and he's looking rain and
face me like and I'm trying to telling I'm gonna
get you if you don't listen to me, you know.
And uh, but that was the hardest dog I've had
my life.

Speaker 3 (45:03):
He was bad, he was he was he was the
need right then.

Speaker 2 (45:07):
He was bad, but he wanted to get, you know, apprehensions,
so bad that heap run path or track where the
other one was just so good.

Speaker 1 (45:14):
He was just I think they always say that you
have one dog, and you really have and I know
Hammer was that for me. Bedford Like every other dog
I've had then I enjoyed. But that one right there.

Speaker 2 (45:26):
Too much to it.

Speaker 1 (45:27):
Yeah, because you're it's like a car. It's like your
favorite car. So talk a little bit about that. I
know that's something that you really enjoy talking about. So
now that you've retired, talk about what todays look like.

Speaker 2 (45:38):
I built me a nice man cave shop. I have
a shop, but I built another big one right beside it.

Speaker 1 (45:43):
And uh, but when people talk about building stuff, they
don't know e W virus version of building stuff. When
you build stuff, you do it all yourself, and you
do it top of the level.

Speaker 2 (45:55):
Well, I try to. I'm I have people do I've
seen I've seen the pictures. I've had guys do machine
work and stuff like that, and I I let a
guy put them together for me recently, just what they
call a long block and uh and I've been messing
with it now. I bought a truck just to have
an extra one. I didn't need it, but I had
to have something to do white. Yeah, everything all all

(46:17):
my my family people always talk to me about that,
even my daughters, my sons, my sisters, my brothers, everybody's
their vehicles are white. It's crazy. I've never it's crazy.
My and my and my hot rod, my my show
cars is blue, right, and my motorcycles are orange and

(46:37):
stuff like that. And Shannon's her vehicles room. She says
she definitely don't want a white one. Not getting a
white one now. But uh we uh, I don't know
what it is. It's just all I mean really, it's
probably about twenty different vehicles, all of us got white.

Speaker 3 (46:52):
It's crazy.

Speaker 2 (46:53):
So talk about what what it so?

Speaker 1 (46:55):
What is what is it like while you're trying to
be a sheriff, trying to build drone garage and getting
into the way you wanted? What was that like for you?

Speaker 2 (47:08):
Shannon tells me, I'm OCD. She says, I set my
mind saying no, I can't stop. Even when we was
building to garage, you know, I went home because it
was just one of the more prefab metal buildings, and
I went in and studied it and UH insulated it.
And but you put some beautiful wall, I did. I
put some rough cut. I had a friend owns a

(47:29):
saw meal. I put rough cut sawtmeal board in to
make it look nice, you know, because I stared him.
My girl works nice shift, and so do you working
on your cars. Well, when I stay at the in
the garage all day, when she comes in in the morning,
she's going to bed, She's going to sleep all day.
And so you know, if I'm in the house, she
hit a hardwood floors creaking, you know, I mean, and
all that stuff. So I stay in the shop all day.

(47:50):
I go out there and I stay all day long.
And I had several good friends of serfs and asked
me to come to work for him when I retired,
you know, come to a resource afo. Whatever's man, I
ain't giving that the top see to go be a
resource office. You know, nothing against them. I'm just I'm done. No.

Speaker 1 (48:05):
You So how close did you finish the garage to
when you were retired.

Speaker 2 (48:09):
Oh, the garage was finished. It was there, was finished.
It was finished. When I read the lift there, Yeah,
I'd put that in. One of the deputies helped me
put that in. We went and picked it up at
Virginia Beach and brought it back and.

Speaker 3 (48:20):
We put that in.

Speaker 2 (48:23):
The last car ip you oft the hot thirty seven.

Speaker 3 (48:27):
I hadn't. I hadn't finished that yet.

Speaker 2 (48:29):
I took a motor out there and they had a
vight chevelet three fifty mote in and I wanted to
put an ls over in it, which is technical. It's
a little bit different, a whole lot harder to work on.
But anyway, I put one of those in it, and uh.
I used to ride the motorcycle all the time, but
a lot of my friends have died out and my
best friend died of cancer, kind of killed it. I

(48:50):
hadn't rode it one time last year, so I don't
ride it anymore like I used to.

Speaker 1 (48:55):
But so you get to work on your trucks, you
get to apply that. How does like that compare to
like when you're as as a sheriff, all the things
that like you see that need to get done. I
think one of the hardest things for you was like
delegating because you got so used to doing it yourself, so.

Speaker 2 (49:15):
It was hard. It was hard to tell other people
to go and and and and Plus the vision you have,
you want everybody to have the same vision you have.
And you wanted it to be done right, you know.
And that was a big thing you. I had a project.
I'd said, tell you to do it, and you go

(49:36):
do it, you know, And you had the determination to
do it right. You was gonna get it done, and
you did. And I mean I'm not.

Speaker 3 (49:45):
Yeah, you did a lot of people will.

Speaker 2 (49:49):
I don't know what the world. I don't know if
it's you, al, I don't know what feelings. But it's feelings.
It's feelings.

Speaker 1 (49:54):
It's not it's dedication to a mission and feeling your
feelings instead of s.

Speaker 2 (50:00):
Brown used to tell me about you all the time too,
And then he had a lot of he still has
a lot of praise for you all the time.

Speaker 1 (50:05):
He gave me a lot of months off of that pay. Yeah,
but I but I say, what I've earned them.

Speaker 3 (50:10):
You've done it.

Speaker 2 (50:11):
When you messed up with me and I did the
same thing to you, you took it. You said, hey,
I did it, and that's that means a lot. Sonn.
You know, you got to do you got to treat
everybody the same, and you got to do that, and
that that's been a lot. You know when you got punished,
you got punished for me. I got punished a lot. Yeah,
I mean I know you yeah, but you made a

(50:32):
mistake and you and you owned it that right, you know,
And that's that's if everybody would do that, it'd be
a whole easier place to do.

Speaker 1 (50:39):
Uh, to talk about your So when you have a vision,
like I think, what's really hard is going from the
ranks where like I think that's one of the first things.

Speaker 2 (50:48):
You told me when I got promoted. You told me
you really don't have any friends anymore. You will everybody
when you became sheriff. It's the same thing. People think
you're gonna you've them something. Not people your employees. You know,
they were great friends with you. They think they can
get balle stuff and they do whatever they want. Yeah,

(51:08):
they do what they want to do. And uh, you
know we had rules and and then and and plus
you want to I always thought it was really important
to recognize people at the achievements before a while became sheriff.

Speaker 3 (51:22):
If you got.

Speaker 2 (51:22):
Promoted, you didn't know about it. We had a little room.
We had a little drop down boxes where our papers
were in and their stuff was the deputies room, and
of course we had nice The former sheriff fixed this
for uce where we had a nice building and uh,
nice offices.

Speaker 3 (51:38):
Each each deputy had a.

Speaker 2 (51:39):
Little room to go in. It's four different cubicles there
and the lieutenants and you had you know, your own space.
Well you didn't have that one was there. But I
remember when we had promotions. People got promoted, all you
didn't know about it. You looking in buckxet, congratulations so
and so on your promotion to sergeant.

Speaker 3 (51:55):
And you see your lapels inside the box.

Speaker 2 (51:58):
Let's how you need that promote? Yeah, And I mean,
you know, we we recognized that I wanted to have
it a thing where your wife could come and get
surely come and pen those pins on.

Speaker 3 (52:10):
Meant something.

Speaker 2 (52:10):
You had a pitchure with the sheriff or whoever there
besides you, and we could have the community of families.
They have to recognize you. And that was one of
the big things I think we did too to try
to make it better and we did it for quite
a while.

Speaker 3 (52:24):
I've heard I don't think they.

Speaker 2 (52:25):
Do it anymore. But anyway, well, let's s I think
one of the things that I would just like to
say to you is you were You are, by a
very definition of what you do is a very humble servant. Uh,
you feed people, You do all these different things. I
think about all the service that you you know, shop
with a cop. You were out there. We won't go

(52:48):
into what happens when somebody says something nasty to them.
You won't go into that. But it does make it
it irritated, Yes it does. It irritates, but I feel
like it. I do that. I do that name.

Speaker 3 (53:00):
I don't change that now because I'm not the sheriff.

Speaker 2 (53:03):
But you have always been a yeah.

Speaker 1 (53:05):
And so what do you think about these people that
are in leadership that are there to help themselves instead of.

Speaker 2 (53:10):
Well, I did fundraisers for formal colleagues that I work with,
and they did I had stays four colon cancer back
when I was a lot younger and I and they
did a fundraiser for me, friends did I don't never
forget that and they raised me like it was probably
eighteen thousand. Someone like that dollars and when I come out,

(53:32):
I didn't have any copay. I paid it all off.
I was able to pay that bill off. And I
was a young deputy, had a kids, you know, two kids,
and whatever. I wasn't full of money. You know, back then,
we didn't make nothing. I went to work in nineteen
eighty four. My salary nineteen eighty five, No. Eighty four,

(53:53):
eleven thousand, seven hundred and ninety dollars a years my salary,
and that was probably one checkers share. Well, no, it
won't that much, I tell you what it was. But
but it did get a lot better. It was a
lot better. But uh, and that was one of the
things that sheriff I went to the board and I says,
you got to do better, you know, we got to

(54:13):
do better.

Speaker 3 (54:14):
These guys on welfare, you know, some of.

Speaker 2 (54:16):
Them on welfare and they don't have any money, and uh,
I wasn't. Didn't you have a you just recovered from
your hip surgery when you came in and asked for Oh,
I just had had my hip replaced on Friday, and
my girl went crazy. You know, of course you don't
supposed to be an it was. It was one of time,

(54:36):
and uh, I got one of the deputies come get me,
and I took a walker and it's like to kill
me to walk out of that house, to walk here
and go to that board meeting that night and ask
for more money and for our deputies to get Sarah's
and we did. They were good.

Speaker 1 (54:50):
Well there, I think there. I think when I left,
when we left, it's probably one of the higher to
pay the departments.

Speaker 2 (54:56):
We were. We were and that was unheard of it,
that was that was your that was you well, that
was the board was was really good towards at first.
And uh then that's that's politics too. When you get
on the Bay side of politics and uh, people asked
you to adorse them and you wouldn't endorse them because
of things that's said about you, and it it it

(55:21):
turned to war down too.

Speaker 3 (55:22):
I didn't.

Speaker 2 (55:23):
I didn't. I knew I couldn't get anything anymore, you know. Uh,
But how does that make you feel? Like?

Speaker 1 (55:28):
From your standpoint, I feel like you're very ethical in
what you do, and you have a reputation. I feel
like a lot of people that are in politics, include
to some of the people you just mentioned. It doesn't
matter if somebody says something ugly about them because they
know they're unethical.

Speaker 2 (55:45):
Well, well, well I look at things like that. I
don't I don't want to get at that part. But uh,
the board people have to run on one precinct basically
in they precinct they live in to wind as a
serf for the Commwealth Attorney, I want every single precinct
both times. And I'm not bragging, I'm very humble to that.

(56:08):
But you but you and you live up to supposed
to be the standards that you say you're gonna be
and and that's that's that's I wish all of our
politicians would do that from the top to the bottom. Uh,
just don't forget where you come from.

Speaker 3 (56:22):
Treat everybody the same.

Speaker 1 (56:24):
Right, But what does it I mean, like, honestly, what
does it feel like when you know the truth and
you know your ethics and you know what you've done
to hear somebody lie about you like to.

Speaker 2 (56:34):
Have Well, it hurts, it hurts, and it's and it's that.
But they are politicians and that's what they are.

Speaker 1 (56:44):
Is that really an out for somebody that because you're
a politician, you don't have.

Speaker 2 (56:48):
To be honest. But that's all about integtive it. Yep,
it's all about tell them they can't. Who holds them accountable?
We should, We should, the citizens should. So that's where
they don't they they're not held that they should be
in jailed itself. They should be in jail, should have

(57:09):
been convicted. But that's just the way things are, you know.
And I'm not there tell the.

Speaker 3 (57:16):
Throwstones. I did my time.

Speaker 2 (57:19):
I've done, thankful, very humble to the citizens that gave
me the opportunity to do it.

Speaker 1 (57:24):
And well, I would like to be I'm probably not
the first one to tell you this, but congratulate the
fact that you made the commitment. You just assigned Chris
Persons to that case, and as a result of your efforts,
even though there was mistakes made throughout, you still were
on the right end of doing it the right way.

Speaker 2 (57:44):
That was very I was very excited and thankful, prayed
a lot nice about that case. But he is a
wonderful individual, I tell you what. I'm so thankful the
Lord send him my way. Yeah, and the rest of them,
and the rest of them, the rest of the guys
and ladies that work with him Clays dedication to to

(58:07):
to making it get help he get fixed to and uh,
it was a big thing. But thank god, thank God
above it. We hold him accountable. So I had to
feel good. That's feel good every time.

Speaker 3 (58:21):
A lot of all my shoulders.

Speaker 2 (58:22):
Man, they really did so you could go out.

Speaker 1 (58:25):
So now that that's all done, do you feel like
you can like move past it and have your head
held high?

Speaker 3 (58:31):
Held my head high anyway?

Speaker 2 (58:33):
But it does help. It does knowing that that all
of the things that people were saying it wasn't true.
And I kept telling them it'd come out at the
end when the trial, you'll see what really happened.

Speaker 1 (58:45):
And I think that's what's crazy about it is it
really hadn't come out though they even though they had
a live trial.

Speaker 2 (58:51):
Yeah. True. Then in the media, they're gonna report what
they want to report. They report, they put things in
there that they want the people to push forward. And
that's like politicians do to try to get somebody elected.
They do the same thing, don't they. They do the
exact same thing. They don't say everything, and they'll cut
speeches and show points that we if I messed up,

(59:13):
they would cut that show the bad part when I
messed up, and not the rest of it. You know,
it's just I am who I am, you know, I.

Speaker 1 (59:20):
Just I think for you, I think it has to
be a huge weight to know that even though you
got blamed for everything and had to keep your mouth
closed about it and did the right thing, didn't put
put stories that weren't true out there as a result
of your patients resiliency and your decision to put the
best of the best on the case and the work

(59:43):
of the commalst attorney's office.

Speaker 2 (59:45):
Oh absolutely, attorney, not because Lios who he is. He's
acceptable young man, he's very smart, and Ambrose too. I
mean they both worked hard, tiresly on that case. And
I know in spite a lot of people, right, I know,
I know that the weeks coming up to that trial. I
didn't stay involved in it, but I know and talking

(01:00:07):
to my family, Uh, he wasn't there nice and he
was gone and leaving it in the mornings at five
in the morning, and that he was working very hard
in that case.

Speaker 1 (01:00:15):
Well, they had to work in spite of that, oh yeah,
of the other people, Oh yeah, And I think that.

Speaker 3 (01:00:19):
That's the bad part.

Speaker 2 (01:00:20):
You know, you want you want somebody to be a
common attorney. It doesn't have any any law enforcement experience,
and all this force criminal cases. I mean, it's crazy.
It's just control. That's that's all one of this, that's
all it is. And uh and if you got that,
you got the whole county. You know, it's just but

(01:00:41):
all we got people like it is the Lord to
see through all of it. In the end. There's always
gonna be trials and tribulations about everything, but in the end,
God's still in control. Yes he is.

Speaker 1 (01:00:52):
Well, it's a good spot to end with. And like
I said, I really appreciate you taking the time. I
appreciate the fact that you gave me an opportunity to
come work for you.

Speaker 3 (01:01:00):
I'm glad you came out. You've done a good job
for me.

Speaker 2 (01:01:02):
You've always been a hard worker son, and I'm just
glad you're going on with your life and you finally
found you a good person to live life with. She's exceptional.
She is all right. Thanks, thank you so