June 17, 2025 • 52 mins
Clint Eastwood talks to the trees, but nobody wants to listen to Zach Bryant and me talk about the infamous comedy musical Paint Your Wagon. We also discuss Eastwood on the small screen in the first episode of Rawhide, 'Incident of the Tumbleweed.'
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
You are now listening to the Someone's Favorite Productions podcast network.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Welcome back to Tumbleweeds and TV Cowboys, the classic Western
film and TV podcast. My name is Hunter. This week,
Zach Bryant is back and we're talking about a movie
that may not interest very many people, but since we're
committed to going through Clint Eastwood's Post Dollar trilogy Hollywood Westerns,
that means we have to talk about Paint Your Wagon
to make up for it. We're also going to talk
about the first episode of raw Hide, the TV series
(00:37):
Clint Eastwood was in before he went to Italy and
became a star. Zach and I will be going through
the series and it may become part of what I'm
hoping will be a Western TV roundup where I go
through a few different classic Western shows with different guests.
But let's get our discussion on Paint Your Wagon over
with here. It is I talk to the tree, but
(00:57):
they don't listen to me.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
I talked to this star, but.
Speaker 4 (01:06):
They never hear me.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
All right, well, welcome back, Zach. How's it going.
Speaker 5 (01:11):
All it's going good man? How are you doing.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
I'm doing well. It's you know, it's good to have
you back.
Speaker 5 (01:17):
I do.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Part of me wish is it was under better circumstances.
But I think we'll have a good time talking about
Paint Your Wagon, and I'm positive we'll enjoy talking about
raw Hyde. But before we get into Clint Eastwood, can
you tell us what you're covering on They Live by
Film right now?
Speaker 5 (01:33):
On They Live by Film? I think I may have
alluded to this last time we've recorded, but we're in
the midst of currently recording the Mission Impossible franchise. By
the time you hear this, I think the second of
three episodes will have been put out. So I have
never seen these. I have menal seen the first three,
but I had before we even started. I had only
(01:53):
ever seen the first one, so this has kind of
been an experience. So that's that's mainly all we're working
on right now. We'll try to We're trying to do
like a action thing every summer. I think we did
Fast and Furious. This is so far is much more enjoyable.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Oh absolutely, yeah, very cool. Yeah. I was actually surprised
that Chris got any enjoyment out of the movies at all.
Speaker 5 (02:16):
Oh yeah, like I just kind of expected him to
hate them. Chris it's hard, Like it's hard to predict
what he will like and dislike, like it just it's
any week. I don't even know what he's gonna come with.
He honestly is kind of enjoyable just for being that
like wild card element to it. But yeah, I completely
expected him to come in and say the John wu
(02:38):
one was the only good one and he hated the
De Palma and the jj Abrams one.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Yeah. I'm actually a pretty big fan of the Mission
Impossible franchise, and at the time of this recording, the
new one isn't out, but I do have tickets, and
it'll be the first time my wife and I will
be going back to the theater since the last Mission
Impossible movie.
Speaker 5 (02:57):
Oh wow, So it's been wow. So you only go
about a couple times a year at most.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Yeah, Well, my wife, now, she is not a movie person.
She might watch four movies a year, and so I
go to the movies more often. But I don't think
I've seen a movie maybe since Nosferatu.
Speaker 5 (03:18):
Okay, so like the beginning of the year into last year.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Yeah, I kind of go there's a handful of directors
whose movies I feel like I have to see in
the Theater, and so Robert Eggers is on that list.
But for the most part, I've watched very few new releases.
Last year, I maybe watched maybe five movies five new releases.
Speaker 5 (03:42):
I think last year I was at one hundred and ten.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Oh wow, that's amazing.
Speaker 5 (03:48):
I'm doing a lot worse this year. I'm at like
twenty seven, so it's okay. It's quite a dipth this year.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Yeah, I really wanted to see Ciners. I'm hoping to
make it out to it, but at this point I'm
not sure I'm gonna make it.
Speaker 5 (04:01):
I would say go if there's a crowd, like I
don't always advocate for that, but honestly, that is such
a fun crowd movie. It really helps it a lot.
So if there's still people going, I would. If it's
already kind of died out, he's probably only gonna be
like a month or two before it's on video on
demand at this point anyway.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Yeah, at this point I might wait. I did want
to see it on the big screen, but I think
where I'm playing it's not playing on Imax anymore.
Speaker 5 (04:28):
Oh yeah, probably Thunderbolts probably took that out.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Yeah yeah, but yeah, but I will get around to it,
because I'm definitely curious to check it out. Now we're
getting into a movie that before I started this podcast,
if you actually, if you had told me i'd be
talking about Paint Your Wagon, I don't know if I
would have believed you. But since you and I are
going through Clint Eastwood's Hollywood westerns, we have to do it.
(04:51):
So I'm definitely curious to hear your thoughts on it.
But I'm going to go I'm going to do a
little kind of background or a little info in the
movie first, at least in nineteen sixty nine by Paramount.
It's directed by Joshua Logan, and he's got a pretty
interesting filmography. I think I've only seen Picnic and bus
Stop and Fanny, which is one of several musicals he directed,
(05:12):
but he did South Pacific and Camelot as well, which
Camelot was another big budget musical, kind of box office bomb.
But Painter Wagon stars Lee Marvin who plays Ben, Clint
Eastwood who plays partner, and Gene Sieberg as Elizabeth. Now Supposedly,
Lee Marvin chose this role over a role in the
(05:34):
Wild Bunch, which is unbelievable, but it's a wild choice.
But he was paid a million dollars for this movie,
which is a tremendous salary.
Speaker 5 (05:46):
And you'd think for a million dollars playing in a
musical you could sing.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
You you would think so yeah. And the screenplay was
written by Patti Chayovski. And it's hard to believe the
writer of Network had anything to do with this, but
he did. And Alan J. Lerner, who wrote the stage
version of Paint Your Wagon along with Frederick Lowe, also
has a screenplay credit. And Lerner worked on an American
(06:10):
in Paris, My Fair Lady and Camelot, And this is
the last person I'll mention, and then we'll kind of
get into our general thoughts. But it was shot by
William A. Fraker, and he shot some really great movies.
He did Rosemary's Baby, Bullet and he also directed Monty Walsh,
which is a Western starring Lee Marvin that I think
was released the year after this. I remember really liking
(06:33):
it when I saw it, but it has been a while.
But here I have a brief synopsis, and then we'll
kind of get into our thoughts. Two unlikely prospector partners
share the same wife in a California gold Rush mining town?
All right, Zach, So what did you think of Paint
Your Wagon?
Speaker 5 (06:50):
That was the shortest synopsis I think I've heard was
that on Letterbox.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
I can't remember if it was Letterbox or IMDb. I
know I went with whatever one was the show shortest.
Speaker 5 (07:00):
It was probably IMDb then because usually I was because
I'm so used to doing the Letterbox ones. I was like,
it's gonna be like eight paragraphs, yes, but uh, paint
your Wagon. So my first general thought, and I think
I kind of already told you this earlier, is why
is this movie nearly three hours long? But I will
say I enjoyed myself more than I thought I would.
(07:26):
I'll put it there. I don't like I had the
most complicated thought I had daring it is this really
doesn't need to be a musical. It's not really a
good musical. The musical numbers. There's like a couple that
are pretty good. I think each Eastwood and Marvin both
had exactly one song each that fits their like vocal
range at all yep, and the rest of them are
(07:48):
just whatever and they don't really progress the plot. I
kind of look at like music and musicals the same
way I look like action and action movies, which is,
if you're good at it, it progresses something. And I
never felt like the music progressed anything like. I think
the plot was just doing all the work here. So
I didn't look up anything before watching this, so I
(08:09):
didn't even know what it was about. So when it
takes the turn, I guess at about an hour and
a half, I have to admit I was a little
bit intrigued because I did not expect that out of
like a nineteen sixty nine movie to do poly polytype relationship.
I was like, Oh, okay, cool, it's interesting. Uh yeah,
I think it works better as a Western comedy than
(08:30):
it does a musical. But yeah, I think i'll leave
it there for now. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Now, Now, I wouldn't say that I hated it. I
did struggle a little bit getting through it, especially after
the intermission. Yeah, after the intermission, it was much harder
for me to stay engaged. But I do think that
there are some things to appreciate in this movie, Like
I thought that there was some genuine laughs in it,
(08:58):
and I think Leemar is mostly pretty fun to watch.
And apparently he arrived on set and started drinking immediately. Oh,
good each day, and I think his drunken energy does
add some entertainment value. And I didn't think anybody else
in the cast really stood out. I think Gene Seberg
(09:19):
is lovely, but I wasn't super crazy about her, and
I thought she was fine. I do think it's kind
of a shame that there's so much talent in front
of and behind the camera that they but they still
churned out like a pretty messy movie. Like it seems
like after Camelot failed at the box office that it's
(09:40):
a little weird that they brought back two of the
main team behind that movie to work on this next.
But the most positive thing I can say about the
movie is there are some moments that look amazing.
Speaker 5 (09:53):
Yes, I was one of the things. I was like,
production values ten out of ten.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Like absolutely yeah, Like I wish there was a Western
with this level of production value that didn't feature all
these songs, because some of it is visually just very striking.
And I do think I think we should talk about
specific uh Eastwood specifically in this. I know in an
interview he was critical of his own singing and and
(10:18):
he did not appreciate the length of this production. I mean,
we all know, Uh, Eastwood is very efficient.
Speaker 5 (10:25):
Yeah, under budget and ahead a schedule.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Yeah. But and I think maybe knowing how people generally
felt about this lowered my expectations for his performance. But
I actually thought he was decent in this, and even
his first song was a little better than I thought
it would be. And I also think, you know, at
this point, there have been more musicals with non singers,
(10:53):
and so I think audiences now might be a little
more forgiving of the quality of the singing in this
because it's just appeared in more movies since. But what
did you think of Clint Eastwood in this?
Speaker 5 (11:06):
Well, I'm glad you brought up like the first one,
the first song, because that was the one where I
was kind of like taken back. I was like, oh man,
he's got some pipes on him. Yeah, it's kind of
like what I talked about before. It's the only song
they gave him where I think it was in his
vocal range m and it sounded much more natural. It's
one of those things if I had to guess the
(11:28):
songs were made before they cast it, or they just
kind of had a basic idea that they could probably
do that instead of you know, working with whatever actor
they went with, if they were doing like what you're
saying with the not you know, using non music musicians
and things like that. But as far as Eastwood, Eastwood's performance,
I liked it. I mean I was actually because I
(11:51):
wasn't sure how this was going to go. I know,
this is long like his second Hollywood really at this point,
so I was like, oh, is he just going to
be kind of like the side character in this and
then he kind of takes more of a prominent role
as the film goes on. But I was actually thinking
he was kind of charming. Is this almost like a
comedy relief, like at the beginning of the film, Like
(12:13):
he just kind of supported Leave Marvin and added quite
a bit of levity and charm to it. So I
was I was pretty good with Clint for the most part.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Yeah, I agree, And I think this movie, more than
anything he had done previously, I think showed that there
is the possibility that he could be a romantic lead
because he is charming in this and he I mean,
like Raw Hyde, will we will get into but you know,
(12:45):
but his movies that came after Rawhide and before this,
there's not a lot of charm there. I mean we
talked about the chemistry between him and the character in
Hang Them High. I mean that was not fun to
watch at all, But here with Gene Sieberg, I think
(13:06):
the chemistry was much better.
Speaker 5 (13:09):
Yeah. And I think it was because, you know, like
we talked about Hang Them High, that they didn't seem
very concerned with the female writing and Hang Them High,
and I think we both kind of came to the agreement.
It could have been cut out completely. Yeah, nothing in
the film really changes, whereas in this one she plays
so much more of a vital role. She has got
to balance out two pretty big personalities, and I think
(13:32):
she does well with that because I think that is
when you're talking about you know, Marvin and Eastwood, very
different personalities, but both screen grabbing personalities.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Yeah. Now, one thing with this movie, so it was
based off of a stage play that was a hit
I think in nineteen fifty one, okay, and they had
tried to get it produced as a movie previously. Originally,
I think Bing Crosby was going to be the star.
So originally this was going to be a drastically different movie.
(14:06):
And over time, I think more actors and directors kept
getting attached to it and kept not getting made. And
to go from this being a fifties musical with Bing
Crosby to being a nineteen sixty nine musical with Lee
Marvin and Clint Eastwood and Gen Sieberg. I think, I
(14:30):
don't know. I feel like I could see a musical
western being pulled off really well. Like I wouldn't call
it a Western, but something like Seven Brides for Seven
Brothers I think is a really fun movie and is
a good mix of kind of of somewhat of a
(14:51):
Western esthetic but with like song and dance scenes that
really work.
Speaker 5 (14:58):
This.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
I think when they cast more Western style actors and
tried to put them in a musical, I think it
just didn't mesh. I think that's one of the big
issues with it.
Speaker 5 (15:11):
This almost seems like the dilemma ride with me here
that Ben Affleck brought up to Michael bay In for
the whole why would we train oil guys to be
astronauts and not train astronauts to be oil guys. Yeah,
it seems like it's the same dilemma.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
Yeah, very much so.
Speaker 5 (15:32):
Yeah. And you know, when I think of like a
musical western, Oklahoma is always my go to, especially that's
an early. That's one of the like me and my
girlfriends first started dating, like almost eight years ago now,
we went to go see a play of that, and
I think, you know, if I'm comparing these, which may
not be fair, I think the one thing Oklahoma does
well is it paces its songs out really well, whereas
(15:53):
this one will go super long, links with nothing, and
then they'll throw in like three songs at one time.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (16:01):
Like there's a part where they like, I remember their
mining song. I was like this, I think it's the
worst one in my opinion. I think that's the worst
song in the whole movie, is the mining one. I
was like, you could have just cut this one out.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Yeah, it was pretty poor.
Speaker 5 (16:16):
Yeah, it's like no one hear singing this song is
doing nothing, like just let it go.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Yeah, and there's a song like the kind of quieter
song that Lee Marvin sings when he's kind of like.
Speaker 5 (16:28):
I like that one. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
I liked it too. And visually it's very nice as well.
Like I mean, the movie, I mean, we've said this before.
It looks so great. It Like I I'm almost hesitant
to say this, but I think I could watch this
again and maybe knowing what it is, I might be
(16:51):
able to appreciate the messiness of it more and have
a little more fun with it. But on a first
time watch, like you said, the going in extent period
of time with no songs and then having back to
back to back songs, it just makes the pacing really tough,
especially since we're we have all these songs and there's
really no like great choreography or anything that makes the
(17:16):
songs exciting.
Speaker 5 (17:18):
No, it's just like they just start singing like and
there's no rhyme or reason why they start singing Like
if it was all like emotional bassed, you think there
would be like at least some type of number with
your three leads doing something mm hmm, And I just
there may be there's a song, but if there was,
I completely forgot and it was very unmemorable, even though
that would should probably be one of your main ones.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
That really Yeah, now I do have Now I don't
actually don't have a whole lot more to say. I
will say that the sets are amazing, and I think
the collapse of the town at the end is pretty awesome.
Do you have any other thoughts on the movie?
Speaker 5 (18:02):
This was just something I noticed, and this may be nothing,
but I thought it. I don't even think it can
connect anything. I just thought it was very interesting and
specific when you talk about the collapse of the town
that the two animals they brought to fight each other
was a bull and a bear, And I'm like, the
Wall Street symbols is that's kind of really random and strange.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Oh huh. Yeah, I did not think if it's.
Speaker 5 (18:27):
Not that purpose. I just when I was sitting there
watching it, and I'm like, that seems really specific, but
also could be accidental. But I have no idea. It
just seems weird. Like I guess they were like what
lives out the woods? A bear and a bull?
Speaker 2 (18:41):
Yeah, it could be a reference, especially since I do know.
I don't know if Clint Easwood had any influence on
this script like he did on Hang Them High. I'm
assuming he had little to no control, although I think
it was produced by his production company. But I mean,
like we talked about in Hang Them High, he he
(19:03):
he did. There is the line about, yeah, the thing
that the hangman is doing, he's doing it in front
of the American flag, so he I wouldn't put it
past Clintastwood to try to get some kind of political
reference or statement in a movie.
Speaker 5 (19:17):
Yeah, I do think this one would be harder for
him to have a whole lot of control end, because
it seems like as messy as you've mentioned, this movie
is obviously there is a lot of people putting in
a lot of work.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Yeah, oh yes, And.
Speaker 5 (19:30):
It's I feel like, you know, when you talk about
the big scale musicals, they feel to me, they seem
like they would be the hardest to like get your
like grips into because you have constant, like in this case,
Paramount producers there who need this to go a certain
way because they're spending so much money.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Yeah, and they they went so over budget. So, like,
one thing that I think is pretty surprising is the
movie did like perform well at the box office. It
was the sixth highest grossing movie in Paramount's history to
this point. But the movie went so over budget that
even taking in I think it made fourteen and a
half million dollars and it was the seventh highest grossing
(20:12):
movie that year, and actually a western, another Paaramount western,
True Grit, was right behind it, but it spent more
than it spent more than its budget. I think, well,
it'spent I think the budget ended up being like twenty
million dollars. But but Paramount they recut the movie after
its first run and they cut out some of the
(20:32):
musical numbers and that allowed Yeah, and that allowed for
an extra showing each day, but apparently it didn't help.
And another thing that the production was only supposed to
be two months long, but after four months they had
to move the production and rebuild the sets in Hollywood
because of the weather in Oregon. They were shooting on
(20:55):
location in Oregon, but then the winter was coming and
they had to move to hollyoo It and rebuild the sets.
Speaker 5 (21:02):
Oh I bet that did cost a fu coup of money.
Oh yeah, that's a lots after you were doing on
on on location. Yeah, that's wild. It seems like a
Heaven's Gate problem. Like honestly, every time we start talking
about issues, it's like it sounds like Heaven's Gate, and
it really is just the Heaven's Gate issue.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
Yeah. Yeah. And the only other thing I really have
on this movie is Seaberg was the only member of
the lead cast who had someone else sing for them.
And but yeah, that's that's That's really all I've got.
Speaker 5 (21:37):
I'm trying to think is the only other movie where
Eastwood sings is Grant Orino is the only one I
could think of.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
Oh it might be I I'm not sure. I of
course I do remember that end credit song, but yeah,
I don't know if he sings in any other movies.
Speaker 5 (21:59):
I don't. I feel like this is one of the
few he can get away with because I can't imagine
him singing anything and like any other Western place, because
I like, I think about Unforgiven, Pale Rider, Josie Wales,
and I'm like, no, I can't see any of those
characters singing.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Oh no me high Planes Drifter. He should sing in
that movie. That would be perfect. Now, No, Now, are
you at least glad that you've seen the movie now?
Or do you wish that you had just watched more
episodes of Rawhide instead?
Speaker 5 (22:33):
You know what, I actually am glad because I think
I told you, and I guess I'll bring this up
because I did bring it up to you. The only
reference I had for Paint Your Wagon was the Simpsons, Yes,
yag and that was the only thing I ever knew
about it, And I was kind of disappointed watching this
that there was no scene like that in this movie.
But at least they they paint a wagon and you
(22:54):
know the Simpsons one.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Yeah, it was funny. I actually saw somebody post about
this the Simpsons of reference to paint your wagon, and
they had mentioned that that and I might have to
cut this out because I can't think of the title
of the other movie, but they had mentioned that that
and another example of a Simpson's parody are the only
(23:18):
times where the parody by the Simpsons is more popular
than the movie.
Speaker 5 (23:22):
I know what you saw because I saw the same review.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
Oh you did, okay, and.
Speaker 5 (23:28):
I now I cannot think of what the other movie was.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
Oh, I can't either.
Speaker 5 (23:33):
It'll hit me later because I was like, oh, yeah,
that is true because I hadn't seen the I don't
think I had seen the other movie either. I was like, yeah,
I just know the Simpsons parody.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
Well, I'm glad you both saw the same review at least.
All right, Well, do you have anything else that you
want to mention? Or should we get into Rawhide?
Speaker 5 (23:54):
I think that's about all I have. We'll get to
a much better Western comedy next time.
Speaker 4 (23:59):
Sosolutely yeah, moving moving, Oh, they're just.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
Moving.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
Don't try all right now, I don't recall like when
when you were on for the day of the Outlaw episode,
did you mention were there any classic Western TV shows
that you have any history with?
Speaker 5 (24:28):
Really? And really it's just being a Peck and pop
fanboy like anything he kind of had something to do
with ivid least seen certain episodes specifically once he directed
or wrote. As far as before that. I grew up
with grandparents, so I have seen gun Smoke, Bonanza, things
like that, you know on TV, and uh, never, I don't.
(24:51):
I can't tell you. There's probably the only show that
I could say that I've started from beginning to end
that I have finished that's from this era is probably
The Westerner And that's thirteen episodes, so right hard, Yeah,
which should have been longer. Honestly, I wish The Westerner
was longer because it was really good.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Oh, I wish it was longer too. Yeah, that was
because if Sam Peckinpah had had like more seasons of that,
I think they're they're the possibility. The possibilities are just
limitless for what it could have done.
Speaker 5 (25:26):
Yeah, And I don't know if it was just from
that one. I'm sure you'll talk about it on here eventually,
or if you haven't already, but I wonder, like I
always feel like that one was a little bit darker
than a lot of the same era. Like I always
remember like there's that episode it maybe like the second
episode of the show where the teacher gets like murdered,
like the one that's teaching him how to read. Oh yeah,
(25:46):
and it's like this is kind of dark, like darker
than I expected it to be at the time.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Yeah, oh definitely.
Speaker 5 (25:52):
Yeah. And it's like it's Peck and Pa, so it's
it's expected, but you know, I was like, I don't
know if I'm sure the rifle Man does at some points,
but I haven't seen it all to no for sure,
But I don't know. Sometimes it's something about that. I'm like,
I wonder if audiences just didn't take to how dark
it was, how early it.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Was, Yeah, it could be. Yeah, Now I've seen I've
seen like a handful of a good amount of classic
Western series. I mean, I've talked about this a little bit,
but but I'm pretty sure this is my first time
watching raw Hide, and outside of knowing Clint Eastwood was
in it, the only other thing that I really knew
going into the series was was the theme song, and
(26:31):
I did not know it was composed by Dimitri Tiompkin
and random Yeah, and now he did the score for
Rio Bravo, like Last Train from Gunhill, High Noon Giant,
like he worked on these huge movies, so I was
kind of surprised that he did the did the music
for the theme. But I'm I'm excited not only as
(26:52):
a fan of Clint Eastwood to get into this, but
it's also another series created by Charles Marquis Warren, who
developed Gunsmoke for TV and also created The Virginian, which
The Virginian, I would still say is probably my favorite
Western TV series. I love The Virginian.
Speaker 5 (27:08):
I need to watch more of it. I know that's
another one. I was at a grandparents house and I
know I've seen them, but like point in anything specific
that would be tough. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
No, I do want to say The Virginian is on
I think all seasons except for season four are on
Hulu right now.
Speaker 5 (27:25):
Okay, Oh that's good, I do have Hulu.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
Yeah, and it's in of course, it's in HD and
seeing like a color and this is from when it's
in color, of course, And this is a shot on
thirty five millimeter film. Also so it looks really nice,
like it looks great. I hope we get a Blu
ray of it. I know there is a German Blu
ray of the Virginian and I've seen like screenshots from
(27:51):
it and it looks tremendous. So I'm hoping we get
that in the US at some point.
Speaker 5 (27:57):
Yeah, I mean, honestly, TV, I know other countries do
a lot better about it than we do in TV
and four K and Blu Ray, but it's disappointing how
much hasn't gotten anything past the DVD. Like I understand
them not doing like gun Smoke. The amount of time
it would take to do gun Smoke, Oh yeah, like
it would take. I mean they could have started on
(28:18):
it when Blu Ray started, and they probably you know,
probably wouldn't have came out till years later.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Yeah, yeah, but yeah. And then raw Hide was It
was the sixth longest running Western TV series and there
were two hundred and seventeen episodes in total. The first
episode is called Incident of the Tumbleweed and it aired
on January ninth in nineteen fifty nine on CBS. And
it's directed by Richard Wharf and he worked on a
(28:45):
lot of big Western shows. He directed six episodes of
Have Gun Will Travel, eighteen episodes of Gun Smoke, and
he directed sixty seven episodes of The Beverly Hillbillies. And
then he directed two more episodes of raw Hide and
including the next episode.
Speaker 5 (29:00):
Okay, so that that really hasn't changed in TV that
I've noticed, you know, even today, I'll notice a lot
of times directors will do a couple episodes at a time. Yeah,
and then it'll go to somebody else.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Mm hm.
Speaker 5 (29:11):
So I guess that that's one element that's just never changed.
I guess if they're already there, go ahead to another one.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
Oh yeah, Yeah. And then it was written by I'm
gonna say Fred Freiberger. I think i'll say for his
last name.
Speaker 5 (29:25):
Yeah, I was looking at his name earlier. That sounds right.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
And he wrote eight episodes in total. And and now
I'm going to read the synopsis and then we'll we'll
kind of get into our general thoughts. After a marshall
and deputy are wounded and killed, Gil and Rowdy volunteered
to finish the delivery of the prison wagon with seven
dangerous prisoners to Fort Craig for trial. Well, the outlaw
(29:49):
husband of one prisoner is in pursuit to free her. So, Zach,
what did you think of this episode?
Speaker 5 (29:56):
So it's gonna be really interesting to go through this
because to see if my theor is correct that this
was not filmed as the first episode. And I feel
that way because it feels very in the middle. Like
usually I would assume like a lot of pilots, even
though this is procedural, would be like, do have an
episode more dedicated to getting to know your main characters?
(30:18):
M M, and I don't really feel like you get
a lot of that, Like it feels very action oriented,
which may just be the Hey, this will sell a
little bit better. We're trying to get this picked up past,
you know, the first couple episodes, but I'll be curious
to see if you know, as we go through these,
if I get to one and I'm like, ah, this
feels much more like a first episode.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Yeah. I tried to look up the filming order of
the series because I had the same thought. I was
like that because because like you said, you this is
not a character based episode really, and I and I
will say, I think TV from this era is the
(30:58):
episodes are a little bit more like many movies. You know,
it is episodic television. There's not a continuing story. They're
all pretty contained. I think. I think Rawhide does have
in later seasons like part ones and part twos and
stuff like that, but but I think for the for
the vast majority it, the conflict is introduced and resolved
(31:22):
within a single episode, and so just based on the era,
there's not gonna be as much like character development. But
but yeah, I did have that same thought, because it
definitely doesn't feel like you know, it doesn't. There are
two characters who are in this episode who are like
(31:45):
recurring characters. They're like part of the like lead cast,
I guess you would say, but they have like a
b plot and and you don't after a certain part
of the episode they even aren't and they don't come
back into it. But I did, did did you say?
Speaker 5 (32:06):
Now?
Speaker 2 (32:06):
Did you enjoy this episode?
Speaker 5 (32:08):
I did? I did. I like it, like really, My
only complaint was and this is one of these things
where I think if I go back after I get
more like a custom of the show and I kind
of know more of the dynamic and like relationships between
this like main cast, that I will get a little
bit more out of it. Yeah, I think that was
really My main thing was, Oh, I really like these characters.
(32:29):
I just don't really fully grasp one hundred percent of
what's going on.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
Yeah, Now, I actually really enjoyed this. I thought it
was pretty well done. Now I do. I don't know
if you had this same thought. I wish we had
paired this episode with Hang Them High, because they do
have a few things in common, like they well, they
both feature a prison wagon, which is which is called
a tumbleweed wagon. I didn't actually know that until I
(32:56):
looked it up after seeing this episode.
Speaker 5 (32:58):
Yeah. This that's where I learned it from. Is when
I think, I think it's like the first thing somebody
says is like, oh, here comes a tumbleweed or something.
I'm like, oh yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
And then another thing that you know, they talk about
not having enough judges, and the idea of a wagon
going around to different places and picking up wanted men
and in this case a woman and then bringing them
to a town that has a judge where they're brought
to justice is definitely something that is in Hangham High.
(33:29):
And then the only other thing Bob Steele is in this,
and then he is also in Hangham High, but the.
Speaker 5 (33:36):
I didn't connect that.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
Yeah, but the similarities between them definitely stuck out to me.
And uh but yeah, but I I liked Eric Fleming
and Clinicewood as the leads, and I enjoyed the guest
stars in this one as well. I think a few
of them will be pretty recognizable for people who are
fans of classic Hollywood, Like Terry Moore is the main
(33:58):
guest star. She plays Dallas, and I know her. She's
from a movie called Peyton Place that I used to
really love. I haven't seen it in a long time,
but for it's like a it's basically a soap opera,
but for some reason when I was a teenager, I
loved Peyton Place. But she was in quite a few
Western movies and she guest starred on some Western TV
(34:19):
shows also, like she was in episodes of The Virginian
and Bonanza. And then John larch Is he's another one
of the prisoners, and he worked with Clint Eastwood a
few times. He's in play Misty for Me, and he's
the chief in Dirty Harry.
Speaker 5 (34:34):
Oh okay, oh okay, okay.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
Yeah, and he appears in Rawhide again in season five,
So is.
Speaker 5 (34:43):
This one of these things which is still a thing
with television now where actors will come back to play
a completely different character that had nothing to do with
their first one.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
Oh yes, with classic Western TV shows, like there are
actors who are in a lot of episodes of a series,
playing a different character each time. Like there are actors
are who are in like at least eight episodes of
gun Smoke and and they're always a different character. But yeah,
(35:13):
and then Tom Conway he plays the British prisoner and
he's in a couple of Val Luton horror movies. He's
in Cat People and I walked with a zombie I love.
Speaker 5 (35:22):
Uh wait, how do you say his last name?
Speaker 2 (35:25):
Oh Conway? Yeah, Tom Conway, Oh, Tom Conway.
Speaker 4 (35:29):
I was like the director, I thought you said the directors,
Oh val Luton, Luton, Okay, yeah, ok.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
Yeah, I won't go through. Uh. There's there's several more,
but I that that I won't go through. But I
think they're all pretty good. And I think the episode,
for the most part, does a good job of giving
like each of the bit part players something to do. Uh.
And there's there's one Uh. There are a couple moments
that made me think of Tarantino.
Speaker 5 (35:58):
Actually, glad you brought this up. I was going to
bring it up.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
Okay. So there's a moment during the climax where Dallas
shows her like her outlaw husband. I think his name
is Luke, I can't remember.
Speaker 5 (36:10):
I think it's Luke.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
She shows him the mark on her throat from being
choked by Tom Conway's character, and then her husband asks,
you know who did it, and she tells him like
the Englishman or something like that. And then the husband
shouts out to the prisoners who are on top of
the wagon like in the middle of the river. He says,
which one of you is the Englishman. Tom Conway stands
up and says he is, and then Luke shoots him.
(36:36):
That feels very Tarantino to me.
Speaker 5 (36:40):
Hateful Eight is is an Englishman? Oh that's right, yeah,
Tom Roth if it plays him? And then she just
feels straight like Jennifer jason Lee's character.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
Yes, especially the moment, Yeah, because I am assuming that
Dallas is somewhat of an inspiration for Jender for Jason
Lee's care because well, one, the idea that she's as
dangerous as the men I think is very similar. And
then Bob Steele's character slapping her like hard enough that
(37:11):
she goes to the ground, like, really reminded me of
the way Lee is introduced in The Hateful Eight, Like
when uh, because I think Kirk Kirk Douglas, I think
Kurt Russell like punches her like.
Speaker 5 (37:23):
In the film on her like the whole time.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
He really does this obviously isn't as aggressive, but it
definitely reminded me of Tarantino. Did it remind you of
him in any other ways?
Speaker 5 (37:38):
Well, you know, it's one of those things where I
guess you go into homage.
Speaker 3 (37:43):
You know.
Speaker 5 (37:43):
Obviously that feels a lot like Rick Dalton for once
upon a time in Hollywood. Seems to be what the
kind of things he was playing in the type of
westerns and his stunt double and everything else we're doing.
So yeah, he definitely feels very, very influenced by raw Hyde.
And it's fun to see how early that is, because like,
(38:05):
you know, if this came in like season three episode
like fifteen or something, I don't even know if I
would have thought much about it. But I was like, man,
very first episode already picking up Tarantina.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
And he, I mean, he talks so much about old
Western TV shows, like he's definitely a big fan now
now that I think, I think the writing, for the
most part is is pretty strong. There is one moment
with the prisoner who's the cook and another prisoner who
(38:37):
ends up helping Gil and Rowdy later that it's kind
of a little bit of forced exposition where they're talking
about like why they got arrested, Like like why they
would have that conversation right now? I mean, this is
a really minor nitpick, but I was just kind of like,
why why would they just be telling each other this
(38:57):
when they've been on the road to get Yeah, well, it's.
Speaker 5 (39:03):
Like anytime you sing in a movie, it's like, oh,
you know that you as my brother? You know. It's
like yeah, yeah, well who would say that, right? You
know our parents died four years ago, and it's like, yeah,
he knows that, he's aware, yesn't forgotten.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
Yeah. Now, I did read that this episode is a
bit of an outlier and and and that it's kind
of a weird choice for to be a first episode,
like and you and I have talked about this, but
I think that they more so focused on the on
the cattle drive and the team moving forward, and actually
did maybe we talked about this. Oh yeah, Pete Nolan
(39:39):
and Wishbone are two other main characters, and they're the
ones that leave. They kind of go with the cattle
while Rowdy and gil Uh kind of take over the
tumbleweed wagon and take these prisoners to I think it's
Fort Craig.
Speaker 5 (39:57):
Yeah, and did they mention where the cattle I was going?
I may have missed that. I haven't watched any episodes
to Head yet, So do we know exactly where they're
going or I.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
Want to say it's from I want to say it's
like from Texas to Kansas or something.
Speaker 5 (40:13):
That does not feel like enough, like enough space for
seven seasons. I don't were at the bottom of Texas.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
Yeah, that might be completely wrong.
Speaker 5 (40:23):
I know you're probably right. They probably just didn't think
it was gonna last that long.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
Yeah, that could be.
Speaker 5 (40:29):
It's like, oh, what was another Western show? Like when
you talk about like I'll hit it later, but like
they always talked about like how long did it take
him to do this? This show's been on forever? Like
why did they keep doing this? I guess because since
this is a Clint episode, we should talk about Clint
a little bit. Oh de Yeah, it's it's kind of
it's kind of funny to like see him so baby faced.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
Yeah, like I.
Speaker 5 (40:52):
Know, he's like I think he's twenty eight here because
I mean, I don't know. I don't think I've ever
seen one a teenage picture of Clint Leakes. I think
he's supposed to be nineteen when I'm reading. But he's
like played by somebody twenty eight, which is pretty normal.
But credit to the guy, twenty eight hasn't done anything.
He's still very charming. Yeah, Like you know when he
there's a part where he smiles and is joking with somebody,
(41:12):
I'm like, man, he's you can It's kind of interesting
watching back, and I kind of wonder if anyone kind
of saw I guess not because he ended up going
to Italy, but it's like, I'm surprised there wasn't a
producer that said we can do something with that, because
looking back, it feels obvious.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
Yeah, it's it is his career kind of trajectory. I
think is interesting because I agree, like you watch this
and you think, like this guy has something, like you
can turn him into a star and and and maybe
he was getting offers at for bit parts and just thought,
(41:53):
you know, why not take a chance on starring in
an Italian western and and and maybe that will be
like the thing that kind of pushes him to the
next level. And it obviously did.
Speaker 5 (42:09):
It was the right choice.
Speaker 2 (42:10):
Yeah. Oh, one thing I wanted to talk about, actually
going back to Paint Your Wagon just briefly. Clint Eastwood.
One thing he mentioned when talking about Paint Your Wagon
is he said at the time he was just ready
for anything and ready to take a chance. And I
think if you look at his filmography, he seems like
(42:33):
a very risk averse actor like I or and director.
I don't think of him as someone taking a chance.
Do you agree.
Speaker 5 (42:44):
There? You know, it's kind of interesting because I think
his chances he takes aren't huge swings. It's just like
a lot of little swings here. Yeah, like when I
think about something like Unforgiven, which eventually we'll talk about anyway.
Oh yeah, being like one of the most iconic Cowboys
stars ever and saying look, we're done, like this is it? Yeah?
(43:04):
You know, in a lot of ways doing things like that,
And especially because that's such a dark script. I think
the original title for that is something like Cutthroat Horrors
or something and they ended up changing the name. So,
you know, I think he isn't opposed to risks, but
he also sometimes I wonder if he's just aware of
what he can do. He's just very self aware of that.
(43:28):
And I mean it's not to say he's not a
great actor. I think he's shown he has range, but
I also think he finds comfort in playing like the
Preacher and Pale Rider, or playing Josie Wells or you know,
Dirty Harry, where he you know, his strengths are kind
of there.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Now, did did you have any
other moments that kind of stood out? Or is anything
else you wanted to mention about this episode?
Speaker 5 (43:53):
Yeah? You know, I actually was in you know, because
I guess you kind of get an idea when you
don't watch a lot of these like you know, you
kind of get an idea that they're going to be
very family friendly, and they are to a degree. I
don't think you might have a I have a problem
with their kid watching this, but I was kind of
surprised when they killed the English guy at the end.
I was like, oh, okay, and then they both kind
(44:14):
of get shot and killed at the end. I'm like, wow, Okay, yeah,
that's a lot at once.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
At the very end, Yeah, definitely, I did think I
was kind of surprised that that it was kind of
a I don't want to say completely brutal, but it
was definitely. I mean, like gun smoke. There is actually
like there are some scenes where people get shot where
(44:39):
there is blood and you know, even in the first
season from nineteen fifty five, but this did feel like
even having the mark on her throat, it seemed like
something that kind of pushed beyond what you would typically
see on a I don't know what night of the
(45:00):
week this is aired. I think maybe Friday, but it
does seem like something a little bit beyond which you
would normally see in nineteen fifty nine.
Speaker 5 (45:09):
And you know, I wonder too, because I was sitting
there thinking about like how they go about these different
type of things, like how they decide these endings, because
my initial things, we get to the end, he was
just going to let them go. She was going to
convince them, and that was just going to be the end. Yeah,
So for them to take that choice, and I mean,
it cleans up either way. You know, you rogue on it,
(45:30):
you clean it up and that's nice and tidy for
the next procedural episode. But I thought that was I
think I like that as a good sign of what
they're going to do. It's not just going to be
the quote unquote everything kind of works out sort of way.
I mean, obviously it is for the main characters for
the most part, but right not necessarily for your guest
stars and people coming in and out and things like that.
(45:53):
So that actually gives me quite a bit of hope
going forward, which I was hopeful anyway. I've heard nothing
but good things for raw Hyde and I've listened to
the Elephant sales sing this for years, so it's nice.
It's nice to hear in the show form.
Speaker 2 (46:07):
Yeah. No, I think this is a great start to
the series. So I'm definitely excited to go through at
least the first season and then we'll kind of see
where we're at now. One thing, one more thing I
wanted to talk about was the tumbleweed wagon itself, because
I looked up like photos and articles on kind of
these like jail wagons, and none of the images I
(46:30):
found really resembled the one in this episode at all.
But it I will say it's I think it's really
cool looking. It's you know, nothing like the wagon in
Hang Them High. This one is almost like a more
like luxurious version of of of one. And there's even
a separate room that Dallas Terry Moore's character is in,
(46:53):
but it's it's totally covered. And if i'm and I
guess it would have to be for the ending where
they're crossing the river and they put the wounded marshal
on top of, you know, with the remaining prisoners. But
I read that tumbleweed wagons were used in the eighteen
seventies and eighteen eighties, and that deputy marshals would take
(47:13):
a wagon or sometimes multiple wagons with more deputies you know,
with them, and they would go around picking up prisoners
from a number of jails and then they would bring
them back to Judge Isaac Park, who I think you
mentioned in the Hangham High episode. Isn't that right?
Speaker 5 (47:30):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (47:31):
Yes, okay, cool? But yeah, that's really all I all
I have. Do you have any Do you have anything else?
I can't remember if I asked you that already.
Speaker 5 (47:39):
No, I guess the last thing I'll brand because I
did want to bring it because I was asked, do
you know if this was just I'm assuming this was
just an hour.
Speaker 2 (47:45):
Block, right, Yes, yes, it was an hour.
Speaker 5 (47:48):
So it's really wild to me that we've went from
this was like fifty minutes long or like a little
over fifty minutes, and it's like, man, that's a lot
of TV for only nine minutes of commercials. I think
like an hour block. Now I'll get you like thirty
seven to forty two minutes, depending on what show it is.
Speaker 2 (48:04):
Oh really, wow, Yeah, that's I didn't even know that
it was that there was that much like advertisement time
at this point.
Speaker 5 (48:13):
Oh yeah yeah. And I mean, you know still and
plus the copy I watched actually didn't have the raw
hide beginning to it. They seem to cut it out.
I'm guessing to bypass the copyright, so they did cut
that out. So it's probably only like eight minutes of commercials, yeah,
which I was like, that's I wish we had that
(48:34):
now on certain teams.
Speaker 2 (48:36):
Yeah, no, that yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. I think with
gun Smoke, it like the first season, it's their half
hour episodes and I think they're twenty six minutes, so
four minutes of commercials.
Speaker 5 (48:50):
That's you know it, it's kind of wild. To think about, Like, honestly,
just for me, they I can see how my why
my parents are so annoyed by commercials. Now, Yeah, in
my whole life, it's been the same thing. You know,
thirty seven to forty two minute blocks, and theirs is
like West only get like four minutes. It used to
be four commercials and we got to watch a whole show.
Speaker 2 (49:09):
Yeah all right, well yeah, but like I said, overall,
I think really good stuff. I'm super pumped to be
talking about another series now, Zach. I know you're not
a big social media guy, but I do think you
should let everyone know where you can be found on letterboxed.
Speaker 5 (49:27):
On letterboxed, you can find me on Dharma Bombs one
oh eight. I think I do have one owaight, Yeah,
I think if you put either Dahmer Bombs or Dahma
Bombs one o eight, you'll find me. You can find
whatever I'm watching at the moment. I think the last
thing I watched was like Gothica. So you know, you
can see how long ago this was recorded and get
an idea. And yeah, so if you want to see
(49:48):
horrible takes on two thousands slasher movies, come find me.
Speaker 2 (49:54):
All right, excellent well that Zach, thanks so much.
Speaker 5 (49:57):
Thank you for having me again.
Speaker 2 (50:02):
I hope you enjoyed this week's episode. It's always great
to have Zach on and he'll be back next to
talk about Two Mules for Sister Sarah, which I've not
seen in a long time, but I do remember enjoying it.
Let me know what you thought of this week's episode
and let me know if you're a fan of Paint
your Wagon. Also let me know if you're a fan
of Rawhide and what are some of your favorite episodes.
You can reach me by email at Tumbleweeds Andtvcowboys at
gmail dot com. You can follow us on Facebook, Instagram,
(50:25):
and x. All the links are in the show notes.
Next week, western film historian David Lambert is back and
we've got a huge topic. We're talking about movies that
our remakes or were at least inspired by episodes of
classic Western TV shows. We'll be talking about The Hunting Party,
which is based on an episode of The Big Valley
called Teacher of Outlaws, Will Penny, which is based on
an episode of The Westerner called Line Camp, And last,
(50:48):
but not least, we're talking about The Hateful Eight, which
is based on an episode of the Rebel called fair Game.
The links to watch these episodes are in the show notes,
so please check them out. I think it's gonna be
a really interesting discussion. But until then, if you're looking
for more film related podcasts, please check out other shows
on the Someone's Favorite Productions podcast network. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 3 (51:09):
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Speaker 2 (00:15):
Welcome back to Tumbleweeds and TV Cowboys, the classic Western
film and TV podcast. My name is Hunter. This week,
Zach Bryant is back and we're talking about a movie
that may not interest very many people, but since we're
committed to going through Clint Eastwood's Post Dollar trilogy Hollywood Westerns,
that means we have to talk about Paint Your Wagon
to make up for it. We're also going to talk
about the first episode of raw Hide, the TV series
(00:37):
Clint Eastwood was in before he went to Italy and
became a star. Zach and I will be going through
the series and it may become part of what I'm
hoping will be a Western TV roundup where I go
through a few different classic Western shows with different guests.
But let's get our discussion on Paint Your Wagon over
with here. It is I talk to the tree, but
(00:57):
they don't listen to me.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
I talked to this star, but.
Speaker 4 (01:06):
They never hear me.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
All right, well, welcome back, Zach. How's it going.
Speaker 5 (01:11):
All it's going good man? How are you doing.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
I'm doing well. It's you know, it's good to have
you back.
Speaker 5 (01:17):
I do.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Part of me wish is it was under better circumstances.
But I think we'll have a good time talking about
Paint Your Wagon, and I'm positive we'll enjoy talking about
raw Hyde. But before we get into Clint Eastwood, can
you tell us what you're covering on They Live by
Film right now?
Speaker 5 (01:33):
On They Live by Film? I think I may have
alluded to this last time we've recorded, but we're in
the midst of currently recording the Mission Impossible franchise. By
the time you hear this, I think the second of
three episodes will have been put out. So I have
never seen these. I have menal seen the first three,
but I had before we even started. I had only
(01:53):
ever seen the first one, so this has kind of
been an experience. So that's that's mainly all we're working
on right now. We'll try to We're trying to do
like a action thing every summer. I think we did
Fast and Furious. This is so far is much more enjoyable.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Oh absolutely, yeah, very cool. Yeah. I was actually surprised
that Chris got any enjoyment out of the movies at all.
Speaker 5 (02:16):
Oh yeah, like I just kind of expected him to
hate them. Chris it's hard, Like it's hard to predict
what he will like and dislike, like it just it's
any week. I don't even know what he's gonna come with.
He honestly is kind of enjoyable just for being that
like wild card element to it. But yeah, I completely
expected him to come in and say the John wu
(02:38):
one was the only good one and he hated the
De Palma and the jj Abrams one.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Yeah. I'm actually a pretty big fan of the Mission
Impossible franchise, and at the time of this recording, the
new one isn't out, but I do have tickets, and
it'll be the first time my wife and I will
be going back to the theater since the last Mission
Impossible movie.
Speaker 5 (02:57):
Oh wow, So it's been wow. So you only go
about a couple times a year at most.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Yeah, Well, my wife, now, she is not a movie person.
She might watch four movies a year, and so I
go to the movies more often. But I don't think
I've seen a movie maybe since Nosferatu.
Speaker 5 (03:18):
Okay, so like the beginning of the year into last year.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Yeah, I kind of go there's a handful of directors
whose movies I feel like I have to see in
the Theater, and so Robert Eggers is on that list.
But for the most part, I've watched very few new releases.
Last year, I maybe watched maybe five movies five new releases.
Speaker 5 (03:42):
I think last year I was at one hundred and ten.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Oh wow, that's amazing.
Speaker 5 (03:48):
I'm doing a lot worse this year. I'm at like
twenty seven, so it's okay. It's quite a dipth this year.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Yeah, I really wanted to see Ciners. I'm hoping to
make it out to it, but at this point I'm
not sure I'm gonna make it.
Speaker 5 (04:01):
I would say go if there's a crowd, like I
don't always advocate for that, but honestly, that is such
a fun crowd movie. It really helps it a lot.
So if there's still people going, I would. If it's
already kind of died out, he's probably only gonna be
like a month or two before it's on video on
demand at this point anyway.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Yeah, at this point I might wait. I did want
to see it on the big screen, but I think
where I'm playing it's not playing on Imax anymore.
Speaker 5 (04:28):
Oh yeah, probably Thunderbolts probably took that out.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Yeah yeah, but yeah, but I will get around to it,
because I'm definitely curious to check it out. Now we're
getting into a movie that before I started this podcast,
if you actually, if you had told me i'd be
talking about Paint Your Wagon, I don't know if I
would have believed you. But since you and I are
going through Clint Eastwood's Hollywood westerns, we have to do it.
(04:51):
So I'm definitely curious to hear your thoughts on it.
But I'm going to go I'm going to do a
little kind of background or a little info in the
movie first, at least in nineteen sixty nine by Paramount.
It's directed by Joshua Logan, and he's got a pretty
interesting filmography. I think I've only seen Picnic and bus
Stop and Fanny, which is one of several musicals he directed,
(05:12):
but he did South Pacific and Camelot as well, which
Camelot was another big budget musical, kind of box office bomb.
But Painter Wagon stars Lee Marvin who plays Ben, Clint
Eastwood who plays partner, and Gene Sieberg as Elizabeth. Now Supposedly,
Lee Marvin chose this role over a role in the
(05:34):
Wild Bunch, which is unbelievable, but it's a wild choice.
But he was paid a million dollars for this movie,
which is a tremendous salary.
Speaker 5 (05:46):
And you'd think for a million dollars playing in a
musical you could sing.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
You you would think so yeah. And the screenplay was
written by Patti Chayovski. And it's hard to believe the
writer of Network had anything to do with this, but
he did. And Alan J. Lerner, who wrote the stage
version of Paint Your Wagon along with Frederick Lowe, also
has a screenplay credit. And Lerner worked on an American
(06:10):
in Paris, My Fair Lady and Camelot, And this is
the last person I'll mention, and then we'll kind of
get into our general thoughts. But it was shot by
William A. Fraker, and he shot some really great movies.
He did Rosemary's Baby, Bullet and he also directed Monty Walsh,
which is a Western starring Lee Marvin that I think
was released the year after this. I remember really liking
(06:33):
it when I saw it, but it has been a while.
But here I have a brief synopsis, and then we'll
kind of get into our thoughts. Two unlikely prospector partners
share the same wife in a California gold Rush mining town?
All right, Zach, So what did you think of Paint
Your Wagon?
Speaker 5 (06:50):
That was the shortest synopsis I think I've heard was
that on Letterbox.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
I can't remember if it was Letterbox or IMDb. I
know I went with whatever one was the show shortest.
Speaker 5 (07:00):
It was probably IMDb then because usually I was because
I'm so used to doing the Letterbox ones. I was like,
it's gonna be like eight paragraphs, yes, but uh, paint
your Wagon. So my first general thought, and I think
I kind of already told you this earlier, is why
is this movie nearly three hours long? But I will
say I enjoyed myself more than I thought I would.
(07:26):
I'll put it there. I don't like I had the
most complicated thought I had daring it is this really
doesn't need to be a musical. It's not really a
good musical. The musical numbers. There's like a couple that
are pretty good. I think each Eastwood and Marvin both
had exactly one song each that fits their like vocal
range at all yep, and the rest of them are
(07:48):
just whatever and they don't really progress the plot. I
kind of look at like music and musicals the same
way I look like action and action movies, which is,
if you're good at it, it progresses something. And I
never felt like the music progressed anything like. I think
the plot was just doing all the work here. So
I didn't look up anything before watching this, so I
(08:09):
didn't even know what it was about. So when it
takes the turn, I guess at about an hour and
a half, I have to admit I was a little
bit intrigued because I did not expect that out of
like a nineteen sixty nine movie to do poly polytype relationship.
I was like, Oh, okay, cool, it's interesting. Uh yeah,
I think it works better as a Western comedy than
(08:30):
it does a musical. But yeah, I think i'll leave
it there for now. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Now, Now, I wouldn't say that I hated it. I
did struggle a little bit getting through it, especially after
the intermission. Yeah, after the intermission, it was much harder
for me to stay engaged. But I do think that
there are some things to appreciate in this movie, Like
I thought that there was some genuine laughs in it,
(08:58):
and I think Leemar is mostly pretty fun to watch.
And apparently he arrived on set and started drinking immediately. Oh,
good each day, and I think his drunken energy does
add some entertainment value. And I didn't think anybody else
in the cast really stood out. I think Gene Seberg
(09:19):
is lovely, but I wasn't super crazy about her, and
I thought she was fine. I do think it's kind
of a shame that there's so much talent in front
of and behind the camera that they but they still
churned out like a pretty messy movie. Like it seems
like after Camelot failed at the box office that it's
(09:40):
a little weird that they brought back two of the
main team behind that movie to work on this next.
But the most positive thing I can say about the
movie is there are some moments that look amazing.
Speaker 5 (09:53):
Yes, I was one of the things. I was like,
production values ten out of ten.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Like absolutely yeah, Like I wish there was a Western
with this level of production value that didn't feature all
these songs, because some of it is visually just very striking.
And I do think I think we should talk about
specific uh Eastwood specifically in this. I know in an
interview he was critical of his own singing and and
(10:18):
he did not appreciate the length of this production. I mean,
we all know, Uh, Eastwood is very efficient.
Speaker 5 (10:25):
Yeah, under budget and ahead a schedule.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Yeah. But and I think maybe knowing how people generally
felt about this lowered my expectations for his performance. But
I actually thought he was decent in this, and even
his first song was a little better than I thought
it would be. And I also think, you know, at
this point, there have been more musicals with non singers,
(10:53):
and so I think audiences now might be a little
more forgiving of the quality of the singing in this
because it's just appeared in more movies since. But what
did you think of Clint Eastwood in this?
Speaker 5 (11:06):
Well, I'm glad you brought up like the first one,
the first song, because that was the one where I
was kind of like taken back. I was like, oh man,
he's got some pipes on him. Yeah, it's kind of
like what I talked about before. It's the only song
they gave him where I think it was in his
vocal range m and it sounded much more natural. It's
one of those things if I had to guess the
(11:28):
songs were made before they cast it, or they just
kind of had a basic idea that they could probably
do that instead of you know, working with whatever actor
they went with, if they were doing like what you're
saying with the not you know, using non music musicians
and things like that. But as far as Eastwood, Eastwood's performance,
I liked it. I mean I was actually because I
(11:51):
wasn't sure how this was going to go. I know,
this is long like his second Hollywood really at this point,
so I was like, oh, is he just going to
be kind of like the side character in this and
then he kind of takes more of a prominent role
as the film goes on. But I was actually thinking
he was kind of charming. Is this almost like a
comedy relief, like at the beginning of the film, Like
(12:13):
he just kind of supported Leave Marvin and added quite
a bit of levity and charm to it. So I
was I was pretty good with Clint for the most part.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Yeah, I agree, And I think this movie, more than
anything he had done previously, I think showed that there
is the possibility that he could be a romantic lead
because he is charming in this and he I mean,
like Raw Hyde, will we will get into but you know,
(12:45):
but his movies that came after Rawhide and before this,
there's not a lot of charm there. I mean we
talked about the chemistry between him and the character in
Hang Them High. I mean that was not fun to
watch at all, But here with Gene Sieberg, I think
(13:06):
the chemistry was much better.
Speaker 5 (13:09):
Yeah. And I think it was because, you know, like
we talked about Hang Them High, that they didn't seem
very concerned with the female writing and Hang Them High,
and I think we both kind of came to the agreement.
It could have been cut out completely. Yeah, nothing in
the film really changes, whereas in this one she plays
so much more of a vital role. She has got
to balance out two pretty big personalities, and I think
(13:32):
she does well with that because I think that is
when you're talking about you know, Marvin and Eastwood, very
different personalities, but both screen grabbing personalities.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Yeah. Now, one thing with this movie, so it was
based off of a stage play that was a hit
I think in nineteen fifty one, okay, and they had
tried to get it produced as a movie previously. Originally,
I think Bing Crosby was going to be the star.
So originally this was going to be a drastically different movie.
(14:06):
And over time, I think more actors and directors kept
getting attached to it and kept not getting made. And
to go from this being a fifties musical with Bing
Crosby to being a nineteen sixty nine musical with Lee
Marvin and Clint Eastwood and Gen Sieberg. I think, I
(14:30):
don't know. I feel like I could see a musical
western being pulled off really well. Like I wouldn't call
it a Western, but something like Seven Brides for Seven
Brothers I think is a really fun movie and is
a good mix of kind of of somewhat of a
(14:51):
Western esthetic but with like song and dance scenes that
really work.
Speaker 5 (14:58):
This.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
I think when they cast more Western style actors and
tried to put them in a musical, I think it
just didn't mesh. I think that's one of the big
issues with it.
Speaker 5 (15:11):
This almost seems like the dilemma ride with me here
that Ben Affleck brought up to Michael bay In for
the whole why would we train oil guys to be
astronauts and not train astronauts to be oil guys. Yeah,
it seems like it's the same dilemma.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
Yeah, very much so.
Speaker 5 (15:32):
Yeah. And you know, when I think of like a
musical western, Oklahoma is always my go to, especially that's
an early. That's one of the like me and my
girlfriends first started dating, like almost eight years ago now,
we went to go see a play of that, and
I think, you know, if I'm comparing these, which may
not be fair, I think the one thing Oklahoma does
well is it paces its songs out really well, whereas
(15:53):
this one will go super long, links with nothing, and
then they'll throw in like three songs at one time.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (16:01):
Like there's a part where they like, I remember their
mining song. I was like this, I think it's the
worst one in my opinion. I think that's the worst
song in the whole movie, is the mining one. I
was like, you could have just cut this one out.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Yeah, it was pretty poor.
Speaker 5 (16:16):
Yeah, it's like no one hear singing this song is
doing nothing, like just let it go.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Yeah, and there's a song like the kind of quieter
song that Lee Marvin sings when he's kind of like.
Speaker 5 (16:28):
I like that one. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
I liked it too. And visually it's very nice as well.
Like I mean, the movie, I mean, we've said this before.
It looks so great. It Like I I'm almost hesitant
to say this, but I think I could watch this
again and maybe knowing what it is, I might be
(16:51):
able to appreciate the messiness of it more and have
a little more fun with it. But on a first
time watch, like you said, the going in extent period
of time with no songs and then having back to
back to back songs, it just makes the pacing really tough,
especially since we're we have all these songs and there's
really no like great choreography or anything that makes the
(17:16):
songs exciting.
Speaker 5 (17:18):
No, it's just like they just start singing like and
there's no rhyme or reason why they start singing Like
if it was all like emotional bassed, you think there
would be like at least some type of number with
your three leads doing something mm hmm, And I just
there may be there's a song, but if there was,
I completely forgot and it was very unmemorable, even though
that would should probably be one of your main ones.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
That really Yeah, now I do have Now I don't
actually don't have a whole lot more to say. I
will say that the sets are amazing, and I think
the collapse of the town at the end is pretty awesome.
Do you have any other thoughts on the movie?
Speaker 5 (18:02):
This was just something I noticed, and this may be nothing,
but I thought it. I don't even think it can
connect anything. I just thought it was very interesting and
specific when you talk about the collapse of the town
that the two animals they brought to fight each other
was a bull and a bear, And I'm like, the
Wall Street symbols is that's kind of really random and strange.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Oh huh. Yeah, I did not think if it's.
Speaker 5 (18:27):
Not that purpose. I just when I was sitting there
watching it, and I'm like, that seems really specific, but
also could be accidental. But I have no idea. It
just seems weird. Like I guess they were like what
lives out the woods? A bear and a bull?
Speaker 2 (18:41):
Yeah, it could be a reference, especially since I do know.
I don't know if Clint Easwood had any influence on
this script like he did on Hang Them High. I'm
assuming he had little to no control, although I think
it was produced by his production company. But I mean,
like we talked about in Hang Them High, he he
(19:03):
he did. There is the line about, yeah, the thing
that the hangman is doing, he's doing it in front
of the American flag, so he I wouldn't put it
past Clintastwood to try to get some kind of political
reference or statement in a movie.
Speaker 5 (19:17):
Yeah, I do think this one would be harder for
him to have a whole lot of control end, because
it seems like as messy as you've mentioned, this movie
is obviously there is a lot of people putting in
a lot of work.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Yeah, oh yes, And.
Speaker 5 (19:30):
It's I feel like, you know, when you talk about
the big scale musicals, they feel to me, they seem
like they would be the hardest to like get your
like grips into because you have constant, like in this case,
Paramount producers there who need this to go a certain
way because they're spending so much money.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Yeah, and they they went so over budget. So, like,
one thing that I think is pretty surprising is the
movie did like perform well at the box office. It
was the sixth highest grossing movie in Paramount's history to
this point. But the movie went so over budget that
even taking in I think it made fourteen and a
half million dollars and it was the seventh highest grossing
(20:12):
movie that year, and actually a western, another Paaramount western,
True Grit, was right behind it, but it spent more
than it spent more than its budget. I think, well,
it'spent I think the budget ended up being like twenty
million dollars. But but Paramount they recut the movie after
its first run and they cut out some of the
(20:32):
musical numbers and that allowed Yeah, and that allowed for
an extra showing each day, but apparently it didn't help.
And another thing that the production was only supposed to
be two months long, but after four months they had
to move the production and rebuild the sets in Hollywood
because of the weather in Oregon. They were shooting on
(20:55):
location in Oregon, but then the winter was coming and
they had to move to hollyoo It and rebuild the sets.
Speaker 5 (21:02):
Oh I bet that did cost a fu coup of money.
Oh yeah, that's a lots after you were doing on
on on location. Yeah, that's wild. It seems like a
Heaven's Gate problem. Like honestly, every time we start talking
about issues, it's like it sounds like Heaven's Gate, and
it really is just the Heaven's Gate issue.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
Yeah. Yeah. And the only other thing I really have
on this movie is Seaberg was the only member of
the lead cast who had someone else sing for them.
And but yeah, that's that's That's really all I've got.
Speaker 5 (21:37):
I'm trying to think is the only other movie where
Eastwood sings is Grant Orino is the only one I
could think of.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
Oh it might be I I'm not sure. I of
course I do remember that end credit song, but yeah,
I don't know if he sings in any other movies.
Speaker 5 (21:59):
I don't. I feel like this is one of the
few he can get away with because I can't imagine
him singing anything and like any other Western place, because
I like, I think about Unforgiven, Pale Rider, Josie Wales,
and I'm like, no, I can't see any of those
characters singing.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Oh no me high Planes Drifter. He should sing in
that movie. That would be perfect. Now, No, Now, are
you at least glad that you've seen the movie now?
Or do you wish that you had just watched more
episodes of Rawhide instead?
Speaker 5 (22:33):
You know what, I actually am glad because I think
I told you, and I guess I'll bring this up
because I did bring it up to you. The only
reference I had for Paint Your Wagon was the Simpsons, Yes,
yag and that was the only thing I ever knew
about it, And I was kind of disappointed watching this
that there was no scene like that in this movie.
But at least they they paint a wagon and you
(22:54):
know the Simpsons one.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Yeah, it was funny. I actually saw somebody post about
this the Simpsons of reference to paint your wagon, and
they had mentioned that that and I might have to
cut this out because I can't think of the title
of the other movie, but they had mentioned that that
and another example of a Simpson's parody are the only
(23:18):
times where the parody by the Simpsons is more popular
than the movie.
Speaker 5 (23:22):
I know what you saw because I saw the same review.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
Oh you did, okay, and.
Speaker 5 (23:28):
I now I cannot think of what the other movie was.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
Oh, I can't either.
Speaker 5 (23:33):
It'll hit me later because I was like, oh, yeah,
that is true because I hadn't seen the I don't
think I had seen the other movie either. I was like, yeah,
I just know the Simpsons parody.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
Well, I'm glad you both saw the same review at least.
All right, Well, do you have anything else that you
want to mention? Or should we get into Rawhide?
Speaker 5 (23:54):
I think that's about all I have. We'll get to
a much better Western comedy next time.
Speaker 4 (23:59):
Sosolutely yeah, moving moving, Oh, they're just.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
Moving.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
Don't try all right now, I don't recall like when
when you were on for the day of the Outlaw episode,
did you mention were there any classic Western TV shows
that you have any history with?
Speaker 5 (24:28):
Really? And really it's just being a Peck and pop
fanboy like anything he kind of had something to do
with ivid least seen certain episodes specifically once he directed
or wrote. As far as before that. I grew up
with grandparents, so I have seen gun Smoke, Bonanza, things
like that, you know on TV, and uh, never, I don't.
(24:51):
I can't tell you. There's probably the only show that
I could say that I've started from beginning to end
that I have finished that's from this era is probably
The Westerner And that's thirteen episodes, so right hard, Yeah,
which should have been longer. Honestly, I wish The Westerner
was longer because it was really good.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Oh, I wish it was longer too. Yeah, that was
because if Sam Peckinpah had had like more seasons of that,
I think they're they're the possibility. The possibilities are just
limitless for what it could have done.
Speaker 5 (25:26):
Yeah, And I don't know if it was just from
that one. I'm sure you'll talk about it on here eventually,
or if you haven't already, but I wonder, like I
always feel like that one was a little bit darker
than a lot of the same era. Like I always
remember like there's that episode it maybe like the second
episode of the show where the teacher gets like murdered,
like the one that's teaching him how to read. Oh yeah,
(25:46):
and it's like this is kind of dark, like darker
than I expected it to be at the time.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Yeah, oh definitely.
Speaker 5 (25:52):
Yeah. And it's like it's Peck and Pa, so it's
it's expected, but you know, I was like, I don't
know if I'm sure the rifle Man does at some points,
but I haven't seen it all to no for sure,
But I don't know. Sometimes it's something about that. I'm like,
I wonder if audiences just didn't take to how dark
it was, how early it.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Was, Yeah, it could be. Yeah, Now I've seen I've
seen like a handful of a good amount of classic
Western series. I mean, I've talked about this a little bit,
but but I'm pretty sure this is my first time
watching raw Hide, and outside of knowing Clint Eastwood was
in it, the only other thing that I really knew
going into the series was was the theme song, and
(26:31):
I did not know it was composed by Dimitri Tiompkin
and random Yeah, and now he did the score for
Rio Bravo, like Last Train from Gunhill, High Noon Giant,
like he worked on these huge movies, so I was
kind of surprised that he did the did the music
for the theme. But I'm I'm excited not only as
(26:52):
a fan of Clint Eastwood to get into this, but
it's also another series created by Charles Marquis Warren, who
developed Gunsmoke for TV and also created The Virginian, which
The Virginian, I would still say is probably my favorite
Western TV series. I love The Virginian.
Speaker 5 (27:08):
I need to watch more of it. I know that's
another one. I was at a grandparents house and I
know I've seen them, but like point in anything specific
that would be tough. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
No, I do want to say The Virginian is on
I think all seasons except for season four are on
Hulu right now.
Speaker 5 (27:25):
Okay, Oh that's good, I do have Hulu.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
Yeah, and it's in of course, it's in HD and
seeing like a color and this is from when it's
in color, of course, And this is a shot on
thirty five millimeter film. Also so it looks really nice,
like it looks great. I hope we get a Blu
ray of it. I know there is a German Blu
ray of the Virginian and I've seen like screenshots from
(27:51):
it and it looks tremendous. So I'm hoping we get
that in the US at some point.
Speaker 5 (27:57):
Yeah, I mean, honestly, TV, I know other countries do
a lot better about it than we do in TV
and four K and Blu Ray, but it's disappointing how
much hasn't gotten anything past the DVD. Like I understand
them not doing like gun Smoke. The amount of time
it would take to do gun Smoke, Oh yeah, like
it would take. I mean they could have started on
(28:18):
it when Blu Ray started, and they probably you know,
probably wouldn't have came out till years later.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Yeah, yeah, but yeah. And then raw Hide was It
was the sixth longest running Western TV series and there
were two hundred and seventeen episodes in total. The first
episode is called Incident of the Tumbleweed and it aired
on January ninth in nineteen fifty nine on CBS. And
it's directed by Richard Wharf and he worked on a
(28:45):
lot of big Western shows. He directed six episodes of
Have Gun Will Travel, eighteen episodes of Gun Smoke, and
he directed sixty seven episodes of The Beverly Hillbillies. And
then he directed two more episodes of raw Hide and
including the next episode.
Speaker 5 (29:00):
Okay, so that that really hasn't changed in TV that
I've noticed, you know, even today, I'll notice a lot
of times directors will do a couple episodes at a time. Yeah,
and then it'll go to somebody else.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Mm hm.
Speaker 5 (29:11):
So I guess that that's one element that's just never changed.
I guess if they're already there, go ahead to another one.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
Oh yeah, Yeah. And then it was written by I'm
gonna say Fred Freiberger. I think i'll say for his
last name.
Speaker 5 (29:25):
Yeah, I was looking at his name earlier. That sounds right.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
And he wrote eight episodes in total. And and now
I'm going to read the synopsis and then we'll we'll
kind of get into our general thoughts. After a marshall
and deputy are wounded and killed, Gil and Rowdy volunteered
to finish the delivery of the prison wagon with seven
dangerous prisoners to Fort Craig for trial. Well, the outlaw
(29:49):
husband of one prisoner is in pursuit to free her. So, Zach,
what did you think of this episode?
Speaker 5 (29:56):
So it's gonna be really interesting to go through this
because to see if my theor is correct that this
was not filmed as the first episode. And I feel
that way because it feels very in the middle. Like
usually I would assume like a lot of pilots, even
though this is procedural, would be like, do have an
episode more dedicated to getting to know your main characters?
(30:18):
M M, and I don't really feel like you get
a lot of that, Like it feels very action oriented,
which may just be the Hey, this will sell a
little bit better. We're trying to get this picked up past,
you know, the first couple episodes, but I'll be curious
to see if you know, as we go through these,
if I get to one and I'm like, ah, this
feels much more like a first episode.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Yeah. I tried to look up the filming order of
the series because I had the same thought. I was
like that because because like you said, you this is
not a character based episode really, and I and I
will say, I think TV from this era is the
(30:58):
episodes are a little bit more like many movies. You know,
it is episodic television. There's not a continuing story. They're
all pretty contained. I think. I think Rawhide does have
in later seasons like part ones and part twos and
stuff like that, but but I think for the for
the vast majority it, the conflict is introduced and resolved
(31:22):
within a single episode, and so just based on the era,
there's not gonna be as much like character development. But
but yeah, I did have that same thought, because it
definitely doesn't feel like you know, it doesn't. There are
two characters who are in this episode who are like
(31:45):
recurring characters. They're like part of the like lead cast,
I guess you would say, but they have like a
b plot and and you don't after a certain part
of the episode they even aren't and they don't come
back into it. But I did, did did you say?
Speaker 5 (32:06):
Now?
Speaker 2 (32:06):
Did you enjoy this episode?
Speaker 5 (32:08):
I did? I did. I like it, like really, My
only complaint was and this is one of these things
where I think if I go back after I get
more like a custom of the show and I kind
of know more of the dynamic and like relationships between
this like main cast, that I will get a little
bit more out of it. Yeah, I think that was
really My main thing was, Oh, I really like these characters.
(32:29):
I just don't really fully grasp one hundred percent of
what's going on.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
Yeah, Now, I actually really enjoyed this. I thought it
was pretty well done. Now I do. I don't know
if you had this same thought. I wish we had
paired this episode with Hang Them High, because they do
have a few things in common, like they well, they
both feature a prison wagon, which is which is called
a tumbleweed wagon. I didn't actually know that until I
(32:56):
looked it up after seeing this episode.
Speaker 5 (32:58):
Yeah. This that's where I learned it from. Is when
I think, I think it's like the first thing somebody
says is like, oh, here comes a tumbleweed or something.
I'm like, oh yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
And then another thing that you know, they talk about
not having enough judges, and the idea of a wagon
going around to different places and picking up wanted men
and in this case a woman and then bringing them
to a town that has a judge where they're brought
to justice is definitely something that is in Hangham High.
(33:29):
And then the only other thing Bob Steele is in this,
and then he is also in Hangham High, but the.
Speaker 5 (33:36):
I didn't connect that.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
Yeah, but the similarities between them definitely stuck out to me.
And uh but yeah, but I I liked Eric Fleming
and Clinicewood as the leads, and I enjoyed the guest
stars in this one as well. I think a few
of them will be pretty recognizable for people who are
fans of classic Hollywood, Like Terry Moore is the main
(33:58):
guest star. She plays Dallas, and I know her. She's
from a movie called Peyton Place that I used to
really love. I haven't seen it in a long time,
but for it's like a it's basically a soap opera,
but for some reason when I was a teenager, I
loved Peyton Place. But she was in quite a few
Western movies and she guest starred on some Western TV
(34:19):
shows also, like she was in episodes of The Virginian
and Bonanza. And then John larch Is he's another one
of the prisoners, and he worked with Clint Eastwood a
few times. He's in play Misty for Me, and he's
the chief in Dirty Harry.
Speaker 5 (34:34):
Oh okay, oh okay, okay.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
Yeah, and he appears in Rawhide again in season five,
So is.
Speaker 5 (34:43):
This one of these things which is still a thing
with television now where actors will come back to play
a completely different character that had nothing to do with
their first one.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
Oh yes, with classic Western TV shows, like there are
actors who are in a lot of episodes of a series,
playing a different character each time. Like there are actors
are who are in like at least eight episodes of
gun Smoke and and they're always a different character. But yeah,
(35:13):
and then Tom Conway he plays the British prisoner and
he's in a couple of Val Luton horror movies. He's
in Cat People and I walked with a zombie I love.
Speaker 5 (35:22):
Uh wait, how do you say his last name?
Speaker 2 (35:25):
Oh Conway? Yeah, Tom Conway, Oh, Tom Conway.
Speaker 4 (35:29):
I was like the director, I thought you said the directors,
Oh val Luton, Luton, Okay, yeah, ok.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
Yeah, I won't go through. Uh. There's there's several more,
but I that that I won't go through. But I
think they're all pretty good. And I think the episode,
for the most part, does a good job of giving
like each of the bit part players something to do. Uh.
And there's there's one Uh. There are a couple moments
that made me think of Tarantino.
Speaker 5 (35:58):
Actually, glad you brought this up. I was going to
bring it up.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
Okay. So there's a moment during the climax where Dallas
shows her like her outlaw husband. I think his name
is Luke, I can't remember.
Speaker 5 (36:10):
I think it's Luke.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
She shows him the mark on her throat from being
choked by Tom Conway's character, and then her husband asks,
you know who did it, and she tells him like
the Englishman or something like that. And then the husband
shouts out to the prisoners who are on top of
the wagon like in the middle of the river. He says,
which one of you is the Englishman. Tom Conway stands
up and says he is, and then Luke shoots him.
(36:36):
That feels very Tarantino to me.
Speaker 5 (36:40):
Hateful Eight is is an Englishman? Oh that's right, yeah,
Tom Roth if it plays him? And then she just
feels straight like Jennifer jason Lee's character.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
Yes, especially the moment, Yeah, because I am assuming that
Dallas is somewhat of an inspiration for Jender for Jason
Lee's care because well, one, the idea that she's as
dangerous as the men I think is very similar. And
then Bob Steele's character slapping her like hard enough that
(37:11):
she goes to the ground, like, really reminded me of
the way Lee is introduced in The Hateful Eight, Like
when uh, because I think Kirk Kirk Douglas, I think
Kurt Russell like punches her like.
Speaker 5 (37:23):
In the film on her like the whole time.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
He really does this obviously isn't as aggressive, but it
definitely reminded me of Tarantino. Did it remind you of
him in any other ways?
Speaker 5 (37:38):
Well, you know, it's one of those things where I
guess you go into homage.
Speaker 3 (37:43):
You know.
Speaker 5 (37:43):
Obviously that feels a lot like Rick Dalton for once
upon a time in Hollywood. Seems to be what the
kind of things he was playing in the type of
westerns and his stunt double and everything else we're doing.
So yeah, he definitely feels very, very influenced by raw Hyde.
And it's fun to see how early that is, because like,
(38:05):
you know, if this came in like season three episode
like fifteen or something, I don't even know if I
would have thought much about it. But I was like, man,
very first episode already picking up Tarantina.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
And he, I mean, he talks so much about old
Western TV shows, like he's definitely a big fan now
now that I think, I think the writing, for the
most part is is pretty strong. There is one moment
with the prisoner who's the cook and another prisoner who
(38:37):
ends up helping Gil and Rowdy later that it's kind
of a little bit of forced exposition where they're talking
about like why they got arrested, Like like why they
would have that conversation right now? I mean, this is
a really minor nitpick, but I was just kind of like,
why why would they just be telling each other this
(38:57):
when they've been on the road to get Yeah, well, it's.
Speaker 5 (39:03):
Like anytime you sing in a movie, it's like, oh,
you know that you as my brother? You know. It's
like yeah, yeah, well who would say that, right? You
know our parents died four years ago, and it's like, yeah,
he knows that, he's aware, yesn't forgotten.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
Yeah. Now, I did read that this episode is a
bit of an outlier and and and that it's kind
of a weird choice for to be a first episode,
like and you and I have talked about this, but
I think that they more so focused on the on
the cattle drive and the team moving forward, and actually
did maybe we talked about this. Oh yeah, Pete Nolan
(39:39):
and Wishbone are two other main characters, and they're the
ones that leave. They kind of go with the cattle
while Rowdy and gil Uh kind of take over the
tumbleweed wagon and take these prisoners to I think it's
Fort Craig.
Speaker 5 (39:57):
Yeah, and did they mention where the cattle I was going?
I may have missed that. I haven't watched any episodes
to Head yet, So do we know exactly where they're
going or I.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
Want to say it's from I want to say it's
like from Texas to Kansas or something.
Speaker 5 (40:13):
That does not feel like enough, like enough space for
seven seasons. I don't were at the bottom of Texas.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
Yeah, that might be completely wrong.
Speaker 5 (40:23):
I know you're probably right. They probably just didn't think
it was gonna last that long.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
Yeah, that could be.
Speaker 5 (40:29):
It's like, oh, what was another Western show? Like when
you talk about like I'll hit it later, but like
they always talked about like how long did it take
him to do this? This show's been on forever? Like
why did they keep doing this? I guess because since
this is a Clint episode, we should talk about Clint
a little bit. Oh de Yeah, it's it's kind of
it's kind of funny to like see him so baby faced.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
Yeah, like I.
Speaker 5 (40:52):
Know, he's like I think he's twenty eight here because
I mean, I don't know. I don't think I've ever
seen one a teenage picture of Clint Leakes. I think
he's supposed to be nineteen when I'm reading. But he's
like played by somebody twenty eight, which is pretty normal.
But credit to the guy, twenty eight hasn't done anything.
He's still very charming. Yeah, Like you know when he
there's a part where he smiles and is joking with somebody,
(41:12):
I'm like, man, he's you can It's kind of interesting
watching back, and I kind of wonder if anyone kind
of saw I guess not because he ended up going
to Italy, but it's like, I'm surprised there wasn't a
producer that said we can do something with that, because
looking back, it feels obvious.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
Yeah, it's it is his career kind of trajectory. I
think is interesting because I agree, like you watch this
and you think, like this guy has something, like you
can turn him into a star and and and maybe
he was getting offers at for bit parts and just thought,
(41:53):
you know, why not take a chance on starring in
an Italian western and and and maybe that will be
like the thing that kind of pushes him to the
next level. And it obviously did.
Speaker 5 (42:09):
It was the right choice.
Speaker 2 (42:10):
Yeah. Oh, one thing I wanted to talk about, actually
going back to Paint Your Wagon just briefly. Clint Eastwood.
One thing he mentioned when talking about Paint Your Wagon
is he said at the time he was just ready
for anything and ready to take a chance. And I
think if you look at his filmography, he seems like
(42:33):
a very risk averse actor like I or and director.
I don't think of him as someone taking a chance.
Do you agree.
Speaker 5 (42:44):
There? You know, it's kind of interesting because I think
his chances he takes aren't huge swings. It's just like
a lot of little swings here. Yeah, like when I
think about something like Unforgiven, which eventually we'll talk about anyway.
Oh yeah, being like one of the most iconic Cowboys
stars ever and saying look, we're done, like this is it? Yeah?
(43:04):
You know, in a lot of ways doing things like that,
And especially because that's such a dark script. I think
the original title for that is something like Cutthroat Horrors
or something and they ended up changing the name. So,
you know, I think he isn't opposed to risks, but
he also sometimes I wonder if he's just aware of
what he can do. He's just very self aware of that.
(43:28):
And I mean it's not to say he's not a
great actor. I think he's shown he has range, but
I also think he finds comfort in playing like the
Preacher and Pale Rider, or playing Josie Wells or you know,
Dirty Harry, where he you know, his strengths are kind
of there.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Now, did did you have any
other moments that kind of stood out? Or is anything
else you wanted to mention about this episode?
Speaker 5 (43:53):
Yeah? You know, I actually was in you know, because
I guess you kind of get an idea when you
don't watch a lot of these like you know, you
kind of get an idea that they're going to be
very family friendly, and they are to a degree. I
don't think you might have a I have a problem
with their kid watching this, but I was kind of
surprised when they killed the English guy at the end.
I was like, oh, okay, and then they both kind
(44:14):
of get shot and killed at the end. I'm like, wow, Okay, yeah,
that's a lot at once.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
At the very end, Yeah, definitely, I did think I
was kind of surprised that that it was kind of
a I don't want to say completely brutal, but it
was definitely. I mean, like gun smoke. There is actually
like there are some scenes where people get shot where
(44:39):
there is blood and you know, even in the first
season from nineteen fifty five, but this did feel like
even having the mark on her throat, it seemed like
something that kind of pushed beyond what you would typically
see on a I don't know what night of the
(45:00):
week this is aired. I think maybe Friday, but it
does seem like something a little bit beyond which you
would normally see in nineteen fifty nine.
Speaker 5 (45:09):
And you know, I wonder too, because I was sitting
there thinking about like how they go about these different
type of things, like how they decide these endings, because
my initial things, we get to the end, he was
just going to let them go. She was going to
convince them, and that was just going to be the end. Yeah,
So for them to take that choice, and I mean,
it cleans up either way. You know, you rogue on it,
(45:30):
you clean it up and that's nice and tidy for
the next procedural episode. But I thought that was I
think I like that as a good sign of what
they're going to do. It's not just going to be
the quote unquote everything kind of works out sort of way.
I mean, obviously it is for the main characters for
the most part, but right not necessarily for your guest
stars and people coming in and out and things like that.
(45:53):
So that actually gives me quite a bit of hope
going forward, which I was hopeful anyway. I've heard nothing
but good things for raw Hyde and I've listened to
the Elephant sales sing this for years, so it's nice.
It's nice to hear in the show form.
Speaker 2 (46:07):
Yeah. No, I think this is a great start to
the series. So I'm definitely excited to go through at
least the first season and then we'll kind of see
where we're at now. One thing, one more thing I
wanted to talk about was the tumbleweed wagon itself, because
I looked up like photos and articles on kind of
these like jail wagons, and none of the images I
(46:30):
found really resembled the one in this episode at all.
But it I will say it's I think it's really
cool looking. It's you know, nothing like the wagon in
Hang Them High. This one is almost like a more
like luxurious version of of of one. And there's even
a separate room that Dallas Terry Moore's character is in,
(46:53):
but it's it's totally covered. And if i'm and I
guess it would have to be for the ending where
they're crossing the river and they put the wounded marshal
on top of, you know, with the remaining prisoners. But
I read that tumbleweed wagons were used in the eighteen
seventies and eighteen eighties, and that deputy marshals would take
(47:13):
a wagon or sometimes multiple wagons with more deputies you know,
with them, and they would go around picking up prisoners
from a number of jails and then they would bring
them back to Judge Isaac Park, who I think you
mentioned in the Hangham High episode. Isn't that right?
Speaker 5 (47:30):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (47:31):
Yes, okay, cool? But yeah, that's really all I all
I have. Do you have any Do you have anything else?
I can't remember if I asked you that already.
Speaker 5 (47:39):
No, I guess the last thing I'll brand because I
did want to bring it because I was asked, do
you know if this was just I'm assuming this was
just an hour.
Speaker 2 (47:45):
Block, right, Yes, yes, it was an hour.
Speaker 5 (47:48):
So it's really wild to me that we've went from
this was like fifty minutes long or like a little
over fifty minutes, and it's like, man, that's a lot
of TV for only nine minutes of commercials. I think
like an hour block. Now I'll get you like thirty
seven to forty two minutes, depending on what show it is.
Speaker 2 (48:04):
Oh really, wow, Yeah, that's I didn't even know that
it was that there was that much like advertisement time
at this point.
Speaker 5 (48:13):
Oh yeah yeah. And I mean, you know still and
plus the copy I watched actually didn't have the raw
hide beginning to it. They seem to cut it out.
I'm guessing to bypass the copyright, so they did cut
that out. So it's probably only like eight minutes of commercials, yeah,
which I was like, that's I wish we had that
(48:34):
now on certain teams.
Speaker 2 (48:36):
Yeah, no, that yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. I think with
gun Smoke, it like the first season, it's their half
hour episodes and I think they're twenty six minutes, so
four minutes of commercials.
Speaker 5 (48:50):
That's you know it, it's kind of wild. To think about, Like, honestly,
just for me, they I can see how my why
my parents are so annoyed by commercials. Now, Yeah, in
my whole life, it's been the same thing. You know,
thirty seven to forty two minute blocks, and theirs is
like West only get like four minutes. It used to
be four commercials and we got to watch a whole show.
Speaker 2 (49:09):
Yeah all right, well yeah, but like I said, overall,
I think really good stuff. I'm super pumped to be
talking about another series now, Zach. I know you're not
a big social media guy, but I do think you
should let everyone know where you can be found on letterboxed.
Speaker 5 (49:27):
On letterboxed, you can find me on Dharma Bombs one
oh eight. I think I do have one owaight, Yeah,
I think if you put either Dahmer Bombs or Dahma
Bombs one o eight, you'll find me. You can find
whatever I'm watching at the moment. I think the last
thing I watched was like Gothica. So you know, you
can see how long ago this was recorded and get
an idea. And yeah, so if you want to see
(49:48):
horrible takes on two thousands slasher movies, come find me.
Speaker 2 (49:54):
All right, excellent well that Zach, thanks so much.
Speaker 5 (49:57):
Thank you for having me again.
Speaker 2 (50:02):
I hope you enjoyed this week's episode. It's always great
to have Zach on and he'll be back next to
talk about Two Mules for Sister Sarah, which I've not
seen in a long time, but I do remember enjoying it.
Let me know what you thought of this week's episode
and let me know if you're a fan of Paint
your Wagon. Also let me know if you're a fan
of Rawhide and what are some of your favorite episodes.
You can reach me by email at Tumbleweeds Andtvcowboys at
gmail dot com. You can follow us on Facebook, Instagram,
(50:25):
and x. All the links are in the show notes.
Next week, western film historian David Lambert is back and
we've got a huge topic. We're talking about movies that
our remakes or were at least inspired by episodes of
classic Western TV shows. We'll be talking about The Hunting Party,
which is based on an episode of The Big Valley
called Teacher of Outlaws, Will Penny, which is based on
an episode of The Westerner called Line Camp, And last,
(50:48):
but not least, we're talking about The Hateful Eight, which
is based on an episode of the Rebel called fair Game.
The links to watch these episodes are in the show notes,
so please check them out. I think it's gonna be
a really interesting discussion. But until then, if you're looking
for more film related podcasts, please check out other shows
on the Someone's Favorite Productions podcast network. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 3 (51:09):
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