Episode 21: The Hateful Eight and Other Big-Screen Remakes of Western TV Episodes w/ David Lambert

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
You are now listening to the Someone's Favorite Productions podcast network.

Speaker 2 (00:15):
Welcome back to Tumbleweeds and TV Cowboys, a classic Western
film and TV podcast. My name is Hunter. This week
David Lambert is back and we're talking about episodes of
Western TV shows that were remade as movies. First up
as an episode of The Westerner called Line Camp, which
was remade as Will Penny. There's an episode of The
Big Valley called Teacher of Outlaws which was remade as

(00:36):
The Hunting Party. And we're ending with an episode of
The Rebel called fair Game, which we're pairing with Quentin
Tarantino's The Hateful Eight. This might be the most epic
conversation that we'll ever have on this show, and we're
going to get right into it. Here's our conversation, David,
Welcome back. We've got a pretty big discussion that we're
going to get into. But before that, what have you

(00:57):
been up to and what are some recent or upcoming
podcastspearances that you want to mention.

Speaker 3 (01:02):
What have I been up to just making art posting
about westerns. I've appeared on I'm going to be appearing
on the Men on Film podcast talking about the Missouri
breaks tomorrow and then I'll be I have a a
podcast with the Pink Smoke that I've recorded. I don't

(01:24):
know when it's coming out. It is about it's wider
Up movies without Wiater, so it's movies that are clearly
based on wider but change all the names and.

Speaker 4 (01:36):
Places and things like that.

Speaker 3 (01:39):
And that's a big epic episode, So I don't know,
I don't know when that's coming out.

Speaker 4 (01:43):
And then and then I'll.

Speaker 3 (01:45):
Be talking about I'm going to be talking about Law
and Order because that's going to get a blue Blu
ray release, the nineteen thirty two Law and Order, which
is technically the first wider up movie, but it you know,
they changed his name in that, and that's one of
the great westerns, I think, So we'll be talking about that,
and then also on Wrong Reel we'll be talking about

(02:10):
The Tall Tea and Alan Bray so two Elmer Leonard adaptations.

Speaker 4 (02:16):
Nice and then.

Speaker 3 (02:20):
Oh yes, and then also yeah, on Wrong Reel we'll
be doing Winchester seventy three and the Furies. So I've
got a few lined up.

Speaker 2 (02:32):
Oh that's awesome. Yeah, And anyone listening to this, I'm
sure probably follows you on Twitter already, but if somehow
you aren't, I do have the link to David's account
in the show notes, so definitely give him a follow.
And then, speaking of some recent appearances, you were on
James Hancock's YouTube channel and during the wagon Master episode

(02:55):
you mentioned that you suggested this topic that we're talking
about to him, and I just want to say, I'm
I would have enjoyed hearing you guys talk about it,
but I'm glad that it didn't work out that you
and I could talk about Yeah, these these TV series
episodes that were remade as movies.

Speaker 3 (03:10):
Oh yes, yeah, yeah, I pitched this to him years ago.
But since then we have We've done an entire episode
about the Westerner TV series, We've done an entire episode
about Will Penny uh, and we've talked about the Hunting
Party on an episode about the Bastard Sons of Sam,

(03:30):
Peck and Paw. So we kind of already a lot.
We've tilled this ground a little bit anyway. Yeah, So,
like you know, I'll take the concept somewhere else.

Speaker 2 (03:42):
Yeah, it's a perfect concept for my show, and we
are going to get started. We're gonna get started with
line Camp, which is the episode of The Westerner that
was remade as Will Penny. And this is a unique
situation where the writer director Tom Grice, Grice or Gryce.

Speaker 4 (03:59):
Uh, I think it's Grys.

Speaker 2 (04:02):
Grys okay to where Tom Gryse wrote and directed both
Line Camp and its remake and The Westerner. It was
a short lived series. It was created by Sam peckinpaw
that was and it was canceled after thirteen episodes. And
now because it's Peck and Paw, I feel like listeners
are at least aware of this series, even if it's
just by knowing the title. But can you give us
a little background on The Westerner in a kind of

(04:24):
a general overview of the series? Uh?

Speaker 3 (04:27):
Yeah, Peg and pawd got started like adapting gun Smoke
radio plays, you know, when gun Smoke became a TV show,
And then he co created The Riflement, but was dissatisfied
with the creative direction that was going. And then he

(04:51):
around that time, he had done a draft of One
Eyed Jacks, which then.

Speaker 4 (04:56):
Was not used. But he came back and he.

Speaker 3 (05:01):
Created the show The Westerner, which was supposed to be
a more downbeat, gritty, realistic take on the West, and
it's about this kind of saddle bum saddle tramp named
Dave Blasingame played by Brian Keith, and his dog which
is played by the dog that played Old Yeller, and they, yeah,

(05:27):
they just kind of they wander the West getting into trouble.
But it kind of a lot of the conventions and
things it purposely tries to turn them on their heads.
So like in one episode, for example, Dave blasing Game
is like tied up and his dog jumps through a
window like it's going to rescue him, but then just

(05:48):
starts eating some meat on the table stuff like that.
But it was a very critically acclaimed show and everything,
but it was I think up against the Flintstones, so
it was a bad time slot and and then got.

Speaker 4 (06:07):
Canceled after after one season.

Speaker 3 (06:12):
So yeah, uh so yeah, Tom Gryce had had wrote
and directed this episode and uh it is basically, yeah,
what happens in it is Dave blasing Game finds, uh
finds this guy's body, this cowboy, this line writer cowboy,

(06:33):
and so he he takes it, he takes it back
to to his the cattle outfit. Uh, Slim Pickens is
there and he, you know, he keeps accusing Dave blazing
game of having killed the guy to get his job
and stuff like that. And so then there's this conflict there.

(06:55):
And and in the meantime, there are these what they
call uh market hunters, which are so these it's still
a little bit like the Mormons in The Great Silence.

Speaker 4 (07:06):
They're they're these these these guys that are.

Speaker 3 (07:09):
Out living in the wilderness, and the catalog it doesn't
like them because they'll you know, they'll shoot the deer
and elk or whatever and kind of uh you know,
uh stir up the local native the indigenous population and everything.
So so you know, so there's some conflict there. And yeah,
we don't get too much into the every part of

(07:31):
the episode yet, but that's the episode line. Camp uh
and then later uh uh, Tom Grys adapted a bunch
of it into his script will Penny and then we'll
talk about that later.

Speaker 4 (07:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (07:45):
No, I gotta say, I think Tom Grys seems like
a perfect match with peckin Pond some ways, like they
were both in the Marines and leading up to this
point in their careers, they they kind of had similar trajectories.
I mean, you talked about Sam Peckinpaw, you know, had
started writing in TV adapting Gun Smoke, and they had

(08:06):
also worked on a couple of the same shows. They
both wrote episodes of Tombstone Territory and they wrote episodes
of Zane Gray Theater. And I think The Westerner the
first episode, like the pilot, ran as part of Zane
Gray Theater initially, or maybe The Riflemen did. I think
one or maybe both of the shows were the pilots
premiered on Zane Gray Theater. But yeah, at this point,

(08:26):
I think we can probably just get into our general
thoughts on the episode. What did you think of Line Camp.

Speaker 3 (08:32):
I think that's a great episode of television. It's it's
a very small, small story and it has it has
like a great cast. Robert Kolp is in it, who
would become like a lifelong fan of Peck and Pause
and and like I said, slam Piggins is in it.

Speaker 4 (08:55):
And yeah, what ends up happening.

Speaker 3 (09:00):
In the story is that Dave blaseing Game doesn't want
these these market hunters to uh to starve, so they trade.
So they trade with them for some whiskey which they're
not allowed to have, and so then they're gambling and
drinking and then uh, you know, the the Trail Boss

(09:20):
finds that they that they've broken the rules and fires
Robert Coulp and Dave Blasingame and and you know, Dave
Blaise and games like, we broke the rules. You know,
he's like a you know, a humble kind of guy,
and so he's gonna leave.

Speaker 4 (09:38):
Robert Colp's very upset about it.

Speaker 3 (09:40):
The the Trail Boss decides to rehire Dave blaiseing Game
but still fire Robert Culp and David Blaise.

Speaker 4 (09:47):
Game is like, no, I'm good, I'm good.

Speaker 3 (09:49):
You know, it's not fair that I get fired, that
he gets fired, and I don't. But then he tells
Robert Culp like, but I don't want to ride with you.
You know, you're a bum, You're loser. And he doesn't
take it well and a little bit pushed. Uh you know,
he's he's he's kind of pushed into not pushed into it,

(10:10):
but he's teased by the slim Pickens character, goaded into.

Speaker 4 (10:16):
You know, escalating things. And it comes to you know, uh,
Dave Black's game.

Speaker 3 (10:22):
And and and Robert Coulps shooting it out and uh yeah,
I mean I think it's I think it's uh I
think it's got a lot of great, great details about
about cowboy life and and yeah, just a lot of
great touches.

Speaker 4 (10:42):
And I know that later on, uh Peg and Paul.

Speaker 3 (10:48):
And Gray's you know, I think they remained friends and
uh he he he like is in an interview, he
complains that he got no credit on Will Penny, not
even a story by a credit.

Speaker 4 (10:59):
He's like, he ripped me off.

Speaker 3 (11:01):
So, I mean, I don't know how much writing Pack
and Paul even did online camp. I don't know how
the writing worked over there. If he gave Gry's the
basic concept and then let him go off, or he
was involved, but one writer got you know, all the credit, or.

Speaker 4 (11:18):
I'm not exactly sure how that works.

Speaker 3 (11:20):
But there are aspects of the Dave Blasing game character
that you can tell, you know, informed who the character
Will Penny is. You know, this sort of downbeat saddle
bum who can't read and and all that.

Speaker 4 (11:41):
But yeah, what do you what do you think about it?

Speaker 3 (11:46):
I kind of want to talk about it in relation
to Will Penny, but I want to give I guess
a little bit of a summary first before we jump
into how it relates to Will Penny.

Speaker 2 (11:54):
Oh yeah, yeah, definitely. I I enjoyed it. I think
the ensemble ensemble cast is real good. I love slim Pickens.
He's just so unique. I think the way he delivers
his lines is just always perfect, Like when Dave first
arrives at the cattle company, like when he brings the
corpse to them, and everyone is talking about what a

(12:16):
great guy Walt was, and and they're saying, like, you know,
he was pretty good on a horse, and they weren't
really buying Dave's story. I like how Dave says, it's
funny how after a man dies everyone likes him and
he never had any enemies, and slim Pickens says, are
you trying to say something smart? Yeah, there's just something
about his delivery of that line. I just love it.

(12:38):
But and that moment is repeated almost like nearly verbatim
and will Penny. But I love everything between Dave and
slim Pickens character Oscar and I think Robert Kulp is
really good in this as well. And I like how
it's established that they've worked together before, so there could

(12:58):
be some like built in us there, but Dave doesn't,
you know, And that's something that Dave doesn't share with
any of the other characters. But then when the final
showdown ends up being between Dave and I think Coulpe's
character is Prescott. I just I just like the way
that that develops. But yeah, I just think I think

(13:18):
it's a good script. I think it's really well written characters,
especially considering there's just you know, twenty five minutes to
tell this story. But that's really all all I had
to to say about line Camp. I just think overall,
it's a solid, solid half hour of TV.

Speaker 4 (13:35):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (13:35):
I mean, I'm not an expert on television westerns. I
it's just such a huge topic. And oh yeah, I'd
rather watch feature West old, you know, obscure feature westerns
before I really delve too far into television stuff. But
you know, I've seen stuff here and there, and and
like I said before, the Westerner was really praised for

(13:59):
being more of a of a of a realistic take
on the West in comparison to you know, other other
popular Western shows on TV at the time, by having
the character be like a saddle bumb a guy who
doesn't always follow the rules, who gets drunk, who's willing
to fight dirty, you know, like in this one, he

(14:20):
takes the guy's a human skull and uses it to
uh to start hitting uh slim pickens with it. But
in other episodes he does stuff like that, he'll have
liaisons with married women sometimes and stuff, so.

Speaker 4 (14:36):
That those kind of details I enjoy.

Speaker 3 (14:40):
And also when it uh, when it does get to
when it comes to gunplay, it's uh, it's it's it's
pretty violent, just in the sense that he has to
shoot that guy over and over.

Speaker 4 (14:57):
He has to shoot Robert like over and over again
to kill him.

Speaker 3 (15:03):
And other episodes of like The Westerner, there's there's one
which where David blazing game because he can't read. Lets
this like young city slicker who is always playing around
with guns and kind of wants to be a gunfighter.
He lets him come along with him because he wants
to learn how to read, which sounds like the plot

(15:23):
to a couple of other things we'll.

Speaker 4 (15:24):
Be talking about.

Speaker 3 (15:25):
Yeah, But in that episode, he has this whole speech
to him about you know what a bullet does when
it goes in the entrance wound, the exit wound. And
there's another character in that episode who has you could
see all these the scarring for previous bullet wounds and stuff,
and it's you can already see that, you know, Pekin

(15:49):
Paw was wanting to show, you know that violence is
not clean. Violence is not always easy, and oftentimes it
is pointless, and it's some small thing gets out of
hand and it gets bigger, you know, until somebody is you.

Speaker 4 (16:05):
Know, dead.

Speaker 3 (16:07):
So that part of it I enjoy too, And that
kind of spirit is where most of the Western genre
was going anyway. But it's something that Will Penny really
emphasizes and and that's I think that is definitely, you know,

(16:30):
something that is a holdover from you know, Grys's time
working on The Westerner and working.

Speaker 4 (16:39):
With Peg and Paul. So uh but yeah, Will Penny. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (16:48):
One last thing I wanted to say about David blasting
game is I do think with Peg and Paul trying
to make it kind of a more realistic show, I
think it's interesting how in this episode in particular. Of course,
I can't really compare it to the other episodes because
I haven't seen them in in in quite a long time,

(17:08):
but it's interesting that he is somebody who like needs
a job and then he has this opportunity and instead
of being someone who like you would typically see who
needs a job. He doesn't try to make them like him.
He's just himself and there's no like arc in him.
He just seems to be the same flat character that

(17:31):
never changes, which I think is is definitely different for
the for that era.

Speaker 3 (17:36):
Yeah, or he'll go through like changes like in one
it becomes like a mini sort of Treasure of the
Sierra Madre. So there's there are episodes where he where
he is very greedy and stuff, and then he kind
of comes back to his senses and stuff.

Speaker 4 (17:55):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (17:55):
But yeah, like you said, and actually the line that
you mentioned is a good is a good line about
how you know, once a man goes everybody liked him,
you know, never had no enemies, which they do repeat
in will Penny, but also him it's pretty fucking rude.

Speaker 4 (18:10):
I mean their friend just died, right, you know what
I mean?

Speaker 3 (18:14):
Yeah, definitely I've always been like, okay, maybe hold it
for later, Dave. But but yeah, but that's you just
see where that character and it's and it's a there's
a tradition of that in the Western like for example,
Harry Carey Senior and John Ford, you know, as opposed

(18:37):
to william S Hart type of character or a Tom
mix or a bronco.

Speaker 4 (18:42):
Billy or whatever. You know.

Speaker 3 (18:44):
The Harry Carey senior character is also a saddle tramp,
kind of bum loser, gambler, you know, drunk character.

Speaker 4 (18:53):
You know.

Speaker 3 (18:53):
So it's a tradition that's gone. You know, it's been
in the Western genre from from insanception, but oftentimes especially
on television, from my understanding, if that wasn't as common
to have a hero.

Speaker 2 (19:09):
Like that, yeah, definitely, all right. So yeah, I think
from here we can get into Will Penny. And for me, like,
out of the remakes that we're discussing, I think Will
Penny is the greatest like expansion on the original story.
I absolutely loved rewatching it. I hadn't seen this in
a long time, and I had forgotten like how amazing

(19:32):
looking this movie is. And it was shot by Lucian
Ballard who shot the episode Line Camp as well. And
Slim Dinkins is in this and he plays like basically
the same characters. He's the cook and and David Raskin
is it Raskin? I think it's Raskin. His score I

(19:53):
think is excellent, And I know Charlton Heston thinks this
is his best performance, and I completely agree he's fantastic
in it. But yeah, but what did you think of
will Penny and how how does it kind of flesh
out the original story?

Speaker 4 (20:09):
Uh? Yeah, I agree with you.

Speaker 3 (20:12):
This is definitely the best of the of this crop
of movies that were touching upon.

Speaker 4 (20:17):
It's uh, it is.

Speaker 3 (20:21):
It's one of the best, you know, attempts. I don't
like the term revisionist Western. I think they're all revisionists.

Speaker 4 (20:29):
In a way.

Speaker 3 (20:30):
Uh, but uh, in terms of you know, Western's starting
to try to be more realistic in the late sixties
into the seventies.

Speaker 4 (20:42):
This is this is up there.

Speaker 3 (20:44):
It's it's one of the best.

Speaker 4 (20:47):
It's yeah.

Speaker 3 (20:49):
Heston is great in it, and I know he talked
about how difficult it was to try to sort of
play this character shake. You know, Heston is uh, you know,
he's he's a bit of a ham sometimes, but he's
also known for like biblical epics or he's a very Yeah,

(21:11):
the way he speaks.

Speaker 4 (21:12):
Everything is very regal.

Speaker 3 (21:15):
So I know that it was a challenge to get
into this role of this guy, this illiterate in many ways,
like overgrown child like as the doctor says in the movie,
they're children with guns, right, and and yeah, I think
it's definitely his best performance. I think just about everything

(21:39):
about this film is note perfect except the villains and
one of them, or maybe the villain, because there's only
really one of the villains that I think is a problem.
But it's it's funny because in the the episode in

(22:02):
Line Camp, in the episode of The Westerner, the villain
of the piece, I mean, Robert Colpe is the villain
in a way, but it's just more so like, you know, uh,
this guy's it's just like this ego just there's a
lot of things. It's just that it's not there's no like,
there's no mustache troiling villain, right, it's just the kind

(22:24):
of a loser guy who who you know, uh it
takes things too personally and and and gets somewhat goaded
by this other guy, you know. Whereas in this one,
they take these market hunter characters who are sympathetic in
the episode of Line Line Camp and they turn them

(22:46):
into this sort of inbred.

Speaker 4 (22:50):
Family of.

Speaker 3 (22:53):
People just living out whatever, uh, out in the wilderness.
Uh with this patriarch, this religious patriarch played by Donald
Pleasants and and.

Speaker 4 (23:06):
Uh uh.

Speaker 3 (23:09):
They are it starts I don't know I don't know,
I'm getting too much into that without even describing the
plot too much. But in relation to the episode, like
that is that is one decision that I think, uh
hurts the film. It's really I agree, it's it's it's
really it's biggest flaw. And it feels like something that

(23:34):
comes from a completely different movie. And you wonder if
there's a version of Will Penny that doesn't have any villains,
you know, or or uh, because that's the stuff that works.
But we should probably get into the actual movie before
I start doing my complaints. But but, but, but yeah,

(23:55):
I love Will Penny. I think it's it's one of
the best of you know, one of the best sixties westerns,
I would say, and uh and a very in many
ways very authentic, like they they made sure like the
sets and everything, the guns, the costumes are not quite

(24:22):
but that's okay, But it's but it really is. It
is one of the better portrayals of like a cowboy,
you know, and especially an aging cowboy.

Speaker 4 (24:33):
And then that term I terms.

Speaker 3 (24:35):
I think it's better than the adaptation of Monty Walsh,
which a lot of people praise.

Speaker 2 (24:40):
Oh yeah, yeah, Now, like I already said, I mean,
I I love this movie. I I'm with you, Like,
if I have any issues with it, it is with
Donald pleasants. I think he's just he's a he's a
bit much and I just think he and his sons
could have been a little less psychotic.

Speaker 4 (24:57):
But uh oh.

Speaker 2 (24:59):
And also I do think it's a little convenient that
Blue and Dutchy arrived like just in the nick of
time towards the end. And maybe that is explained and
I just missed it, but I did think that was
a little bit convenient. Was that explained, David?

Speaker 3 (25:18):
Uh? I honestly don't. I honestly don't remember if they
explain it. If it's explained, it's it's done in like,
you know, some quick exposition. But yeah, that all of
that feels like, uh it yeah, that feels like it's
from a TV show. It doesn't, It really doesn't. It

(25:39):
doesn't fill of a piece with the rest of the movie.
And I know Peck and Paul had said that too
when he was talking about this film, that he liked
this film, but he thought he's like, all the action
in it was shit, you know, the betrayal, he.

Speaker 4 (25:52):
Was but hum but yeah, well so so this one
has the base basic thing.

Speaker 3 (26:00):
I don't think we've talked about the story real but
once again you have you have this this aging cowboy
who who's illiterate, and he gives up his place on
this drive so that this guy can visit his his
dying father. And so then he gets he finds this

(26:21):
injured uh person who ends up dying uh takes his
job at the line camp. And in this one, the
slim Pickens character from the last one kind of gets
split into two. So he becomes Pickens character at the beginning.
But then like the suspicious guy who doesn't like Will
Penny is uh now played by Lucas s q.

Speaker 4 (26:45):
Yes and uh.

Speaker 3 (26:50):
Uh so yeah, so that he goes he goes uh oh.
Before all that happens, though, uh he him and Anthony's
Zerbi and Lee Majors.

Speaker 4 (27:03):
Lee Majors is out.

Speaker 3 (27:04):
He shoots a deer or an elk or something or
he's hunting a deer or elk. Finds it turns out
that this uh uh, this family what are they called,
what's there? What other the Donald Pleasants's family, these hillbillies,
they'd already killed this the the elk or whatever, and
so there's like a little bit of conflict there and

(27:25):
then it you know, it goes in it becomes you know,
a gunfight and Zerby gets injured and everything.

Speaker 4 (27:32):
So later when.

Speaker 3 (27:36):
When Will Penny is working you know, the line camp,
he has to stay in the line the line writer's
shack and everything. This mother and her son whose husband's
basically abandoned her are living in there because they have
no place to stay before the winter, and h he
doesn't want them there. He tells them to get out.

(27:57):
But as he's doing his work he gets attacked by
the Hillbillies again. They nurse him back to health and
then a romance kind of grows between them, and uh so, yeah,
so if it's like I know, I like for me,
I presented a version of this movie that doesn't have villains,

(28:19):
and that's probably doesn't sound appealing to a lot of people.

Speaker 4 (28:22):
But the best stuff about this.

Speaker 3 (28:24):
Movie is, uh, you know, it's attention to detail, its characters,
it's sensitivity. Uh it's a really which sounds doesn't always
sound like the best thing for a Western, but you know,
it's a very gritty, realistic Western, but it's also very
sensitive and it and it's does the it's it does

(28:48):
the best kind of like romance in a Western, because
it's usually the weakest part of Westerns that it usually
feels like an afterthought. But just like the slow just
sort of building this blooming romance. But both but they're

(29:09):
they're both. They can't just grab each other and kiss
or whatever they they have. There's certain societal things will
Penny has his own you know, bashfulness and limitations, and
that is true in the West, like people, you know,
proper ladies were a small portion you know, the population,
and so when when you know, out the frontiersmen would

(29:31):
run into a quote unquote proper woman, they didn't know
what to do.

Speaker 4 (29:35):
You know.

Speaker 3 (29:35):
Oftentimes in boom downs you'll hear stories of them paying
like like twenty dollars for a pancake made by a
proper woman, you know, and that's their money at the time,
you know, So they so.

Speaker 4 (29:48):
And so.

Speaker 3 (29:49):
You know movies that are like My Darling Clementine or
or even like Shane, where it's like this, there's this
romance that they can ever act upon or even like
the stuff and the searchers about Ethan Edwards and his
brother's wife. Uh, that's the best stuff. That's the best
stuff that works in this movie.

Speaker 4 (30:10):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (30:11):
And as you're watching it grow, you know, they're churning butter,
which is sex seems like crass innu window right now,
but it's actually, I don't know if I want to
say it's a hot scene, but you're so invested in
the characters and you so want them to fall in
love that it's a little a little bit.

Speaker 4 (30:30):
You know. Uh.

Speaker 3 (30:31):
And then when they finally kiss, the movie goes, yeah,
remember these assholes, and then it becomes this bad action climax.
So yeah, I mean, and not only are they sea
blocking Will Penny, they're sea blocking the audience because it's like,
I'm into this movie. Why are these guys here, like
Bruce Dern and Matt Clark. Obviously they're they're fine, They're yeah,

(30:55):
they're you. You always want to see them. And and
but Donald Pleasance is just is so bad.

Speaker 4 (31:03):
He his accents terrible. He just he's awful in the movie.

Speaker 3 (31:08):
But more well, I don't want to say more than that,
but a big problem is just the way that they're written.
I feel that, uh, since they are technically in the
right in regards to the elk or the deer whatever
that they'd shot, I feel that like a misunderstanding that
just builds would have been and then it and it

(31:30):
results in one of them getting killed and then they
want revenge. If you're gonna have villains in the movie,
you could at least make the more human. Yes, you know,
the rest of the movie is trying to be that way.
It's trying to be more a more human, realistic take,
so you can't put these maniacs who feel like what

(31:51):
are the is the Angel Family or whatever from like
Judge Dread or something dis dropped and you know, and I.

Speaker 4 (31:58):
So yeah, it's it's it's really the biggest issue with
the film.

Speaker 3 (32:04):
But uh uh yeah, but yeah, it's full of great
character actors, uh Lucas k like I said, Ben Johnson,
Slim Pickens, uh g d Spradlin who will pop up later.
And it's beautifully shot by Lucien vallad. The music is
good until the end ballid. Yeah, and it's one of

(32:27):
those things where it's like, yeah, when when Will Penny
is telling and Joan Hackett is just is is great
in the film.

Speaker 4 (32:34):
Uh, I know she didn't, she didn't do a ton
of stuff. She was a couple of years later in
what support Your support truff I think, right, Yeah, she's
very funny in that.

Speaker 3 (32:47):
And I know she got like an Academy Award nomination
for a Neil Simon thing like only when it Hurts
or something, but she ended up dying in the eighties
of Bavarian cancer.

Speaker 4 (32:57):
Oh pretty young.

Speaker 3 (32:58):
So uh and then uh and then uh John uh
Grys who plays the kid. Uh. And I know that
Tom Grays did not want him. He did not want
to cast his son, you know, really because of nepotism.

Speaker 4 (33:18):
Yeah. And when they were on the lot what what
what what? What company released Will Penny what you know?

Speaker 2 (33:28):
Paramount?

Speaker 3 (33:29):
Okay, when he was out on the Paramount lot, Uh,
he just let his son run around. And I can't remember.
One of the producers or somebody you know, saw his
son was like, who's his kid? Like he should be
in the movie. He's like, Oh, that's my son. It's
some story like that actually. But uh, but he's good

(33:50):
in it. I know a lot of people don't like
the kid in Shane Brandon Brandon de Wilde. I think
he's great in Shane.

Speaker 2 (33:58):
But yeah, he could.

Speaker 3 (34:00):
This kid is is a lot more subdued. He's a
he's a great child actor and of course he's so good.
He's like on White Lotus now, and he's Uncle Rico
and Napoleon Dynamite and uh, the Wolfman and Monster Squad
and stuff. So he's had a long career that's still going.
I've never watched White Lotus. I don't know what he
does on there, but I know that he's got a

(34:22):
decent role on that.

Speaker 4 (34:24):
I believe.

Speaker 2 (34:25):
I've never seen White Lotus. I don't watch. I mean,
there's very few like recent things that I watch recent television.
I'm just out, I do not care for it. There's
I can't I can't even tell you the last time
I watched a new a new series. But oddly enough,
with John Gryce, I paid on a low budget movie

(34:48):
that he's in called South of Heaven and and so
I I mean I met him very briefly. I mean
I basically shook his hand. But if that is a
very interesting movie. Two of my friends are in the movie,
and then I know the director as well. And it

(35:09):
actually has a DVD release from a company called Synapse,
And if anybody wants to see just a really unusual movie,
I don't really it's very spaghetti Western inspired actually, but
it has almost like I know the director has mentioned that,
like the color schemes are almost like tex avery ish,

(35:32):
and then the tone, the tone is almost like David Lynch.
It's a very weird movie. But it's called South of Heaven.
It is available on DVD, I believe. But yeah, but uh,
but yeah, Okay, So back to Joan Hackett. So when
I first saw this movie, I had really mixed feelings

(35:54):
on her character and her performance, but I thought she
was great this time around. And uh, and I think
their relationship is so compelling, and I agree, like with you,
with a lot of Westerns that have a romance they
feel tacked on. I watched a couple Randolph Scott movies,

(36:17):
movies from the fifties recently, and they just have somebody
that he falls in love with, and it just feels
like a really forced part of the movie. But here
it's I think it's it's kind of what makes the
movie exciting is seeing them kind of be surprised by
how drawn they are to each other when they're when
they seem to be just complete opposite people, which I know,

(36:40):
like opposite opposites attract, but here it just plays so perfectly.
And I think the I think the very ending, like
after the action is is perfect. I think, like I do,
think you want to see them stay together so badly,

(37:01):
but you can also see it's kind of like an
act of mercy for Will to leave now because it's,
you know, like he says, he's kind of a drifter.
It seems inevitable that he'll leave them at some point anyway.
But yeah, I love the romance in this. I think
it's one of the best things about it for sure.

Speaker 3 (37:20):
Yeah, I I I I.

Speaker 4 (37:22):
I love her in the in the role because she's
not she's she's so they're they're like you said, they're opposites,
but they're also both very in a way, like humble
and quiet, you know.

Speaker 3 (37:40):
And so even when at the beginning when Anthony Zerby
is claiming that his friends left him and he was
attacked by hundreds of Indians or whatever, and and then
she's like chewing out Will Penny, it's not she's not shrill, uh,
you know, or anything like that.

Speaker 4 (37:59):
And she's also just like.

Speaker 3 (38:02):
A gorgeous woman that you don't ever that never looks
like they've made her up. She looks of the period,
you know, like she strikes that a balance of being
like just this beautiful.

Speaker 4 (38:18):
Person. But doesn't you know, you can't. I mean, I'm
sure there's.

Speaker 3 (38:22):
A lot of makeup on her because it's a movie,
but you don't see anything like that, you know, you don't.
It's a she just has this natural beauty and a
whole natural way. And yeah, just so how soft spoken
she is, how soft spoken they both are. Yeah, and
that ending is uh, you know, it's the it is

(38:45):
the Western ending, you know, he's got to go uh
and it's ah.

Speaker 4 (38:52):
And it's perfect. But at the same time, it's like.

Speaker 3 (38:55):
I'm like, throw away, the throw throw away what the West,
you know, the conventions of the Western or the mythology,
like you guys need to get together.

Speaker 4 (39:03):
Yeah, you're being stupid, will you know? But it's but yeah, of.

Speaker 3 (39:07):
Course you know you can't. That's that that would not
have been a good ending. But when you watch it, uh,
it's not just like yeah, this is this is the
perfect way to end this. It's like, no, will you idiot,
what are you doing?

Speaker 4 (39:20):
Right? Uh?

Speaker 3 (39:23):
So yeah, and and and that's yeah, that's that's that's
the best stuff in it.

Speaker 4 (39:31):
That's what that's that's what works about it.

Speaker 2 (39:34):
One thing I thought was kind of interesting. Was on
There's a Blu Ray special feature where Charlton Heston said
that he read the script and he loved it, and
he thought that they could get William Wiler or George
Stevens to direct it. And I do think that George
Stevens reference makes a lot of sense. I feel like
this is definitely influenced by Shane. But I'm I'm so

(39:54):
glad that Tom Grice made this because it does feel
like it feels like a very personal project in a way.
I don't know for sure that it was, but I
do think that that feeling could have been lost had
someone else made it. And I mean, I didn't know
that he didn't want John Gryce to be in it
until you said so, but obviously he wouldn't have been

(40:15):
in this without, you know, his dad directing it. And
I just think he's so good at HG. But yeah,
that's that's really kind of all I had to say.

Speaker 4 (40:26):
Now.

Speaker 2 (40:26):
Now, one question I kind of had for you about
this is I did look up some reviews of this movie.
I looked up just Roger Eberts and Pauline Kele's and
Ebert loved the movie. He said it was the best
Cowboy movie since hud But Pauline Klee was pretty harsh,
like she said that the film is trying to be
a classic, and you can tell because the hero really

(40:49):
hopes that all he really hopes to do is survive,
and then and though he meets a woman, he goes
back to his dull, solitary, solitary existence. And she also
said Joan Hackett gives the the film it's only freshness,
and I think she also was critical of the action
in the movie. But do you think will Penny has
much of a reputation at this point or do you
think it's kind of more of a minor Western?

Speaker 4 (41:12):
I don't.

Speaker 3 (41:12):
Yeah, I think it has a pretty decent reputation. Pauline
kel it was I, from my understanding, was not a
big fan of westerns period, not that she never recommended any,
but I think even I think even she admitted that that,
you know, that's it's not her her favorite genre. So

(41:36):
but uh, yeah, I honestly I don't really know where
it's where it's standing is. I think people that that
like Western's rank it pretty high. What you were saying
about Tom Grys this was personal. He would not sell
this script unless he was able to direct it. When

(41:58):
when Heston had he it was written by a historian,
and like you said, when he was trying to get
like Wyler or George Stevens to direct it, they Grys
would not sell.

Speaker 4 (42:11):
It for anyone else. So so it.

Speaker 3 (42:13):
Was so it was close to him, and it was
it was influenced by Shane And uh there's I I
think I posted I'll rough to repost it, but on Twitter,
I have all of like Charlton Heston's.

Speaker 4 (42:31):
Diary notes as he was filming it.

Speaker 2 (42:34):
Oh okay, yeah.

Speaker 3 (42:35):
So and he talks about a lot of that, a
lot of that stuff, and also the way that Grys
would shoot with multiple cameras and stuff, and how the
editors were like not sure if it was going to
cut together because you know, he came from TV like
Peck and Pahd and that was you know, they have
very similar styles where it was you know, the john

(42:58):
Ford way of shooting, know, almost storyboards in the sense
of like your compositions will cut into this. There's like
almost only one way to cut a john Ford movie,
you know, whereas these guys who came from television would
do multi camera you know stuff and all all this
coverage and then find it in the editing room. So

(43:20):
but yeah, I don't I don't really know where it's
standing is. I think people that have a passing interest
in the Western I think they I think they rank
it pretty high. But it's a it's a you know,
it's a kind of a low key, downbeat Western and
I know that. I think in Italy they changed that
the that end scene to where Will Penny says I'll

(43:43):
be back again or something I'll be back.

Speaker 4 (43:45):
After the winter to give it a more happy ending.

Speaker 3 (43:49):
But but yeah, I know that that Heston was unhappy
with how little the you know, the studio marketed it.
He said they could all burn in hell in his
note in his die stuff. But I think it's it's
definitely something well worth seeing, and it's it's worth checking
out the Westerner episode just to see everything that he develops,

(44:13):
mostly for the better and then just a little bit
for the worse.

Speaker 2 (44:16):
Yeah, yeah, definitely. All right, Well, any other thoughts? Are
you ready to move on to the Big Valley?

Speaker 3 (44:24):
I think we could move on to the Big Valley sure, yeah.

Speaker 2 (44:30):
All right, So I've only seen a few episodes of
the Big Valley, so I'm not super familiar with it
now for the most part, I actually have enjoyed what
I've seen. I know it ran for four seasons in
stars Richard Long, Peter Breck Lee, Majors Linda Evans, and
Barbara Stanwick, and they are the Barkley family. And I

(44:51):
and like I said, yeah, I watched this episode which
is called Teacher of Outlaws, and then I watched the
following episode Under a Dark Star, and that episode is
also directed by Michael Ritchie. And then I watched an
episode that I had, I think read about on our
scene on a list somewhere called A Noose is Waiting,
and I thought A newse was Waiting was pretty good fun.

(45:12):
But A Teacher of Outlaws was written by Gilbert Ralston,
with lou Moreheim or Morhem receiving story credit, and they're
both credited for story in screenplay on the remake of
this episode, which is called The Hunting Party, which we'll
get into in a little bit al and they're credited
along with William W. Norton, who also wrote episodes of

(45:34):
The Big Valley. But yeah, David, can you kind of
tell us what this episode's about.

Speaker 3 (45:42):
Yeah, so there's an outlaw gang, and the head of
the gang has Barbara Stanwick kidnapped under the impression that
she's a school teacher, and they don't know that she's
actually matriarch of this huge you know ranch, you know,

(46:03):
and this very wealthy person. But he has her kidnapp
because he thinks she's a school teacher and he is illiterate,
and he wants to learn how to read. And and
then of course a you might even say, a hunting
party goes out to try to find her, and and

(46:26):
then we follow him trying to learn how to read.
And also, uh yeah, basically, I mean, I mean, there's
other things that happened here or there, but that's basically
the concept, right.

Speaker 2 (46:38):
Oh yeah, it's pretty simple. It's pretty straightforward. But uh
but I gotta say I was actually kind of surprised
by how much I enjoyed this. Like, I wasn't really
aware of the Big Valley's reputation, so I didn't know
what to expect when I was, you know, watching these
few episodes. I think I was surprised by how poignant

(47:01):
I think Sam's reason for wanting to learn to read
and write was. I mean, I wasn't you know, I
wasn't moved to tears, but I did buy like stan
Wick's kind of growing admiration for him and how she
could like be sad at the end. But yeah, what
did you think of this episode?

Speaker 4 (47:19):
I liked it.

Speaker 3 (47:21):
When it first started, I was like, ooh, because this
is this is like almost an hour long. Yes, I did,
I did the I did the Big Valley start as
a half hour and then move to an hour long.

Speaker 2 (47:35):
I believe it was always an hour.

Speaker 4 (47:37):
It was. It was always an hour. Okay, maybe it's
a different show, but uh and uh yeah.

Speaker 3 (47:45):
And then also just because it just especially like TV
westerns at this time that were in color, I always
find very ugly. Uh So I was just like, oh,
this is gonna be this this one my be rough.
But uh but as it went along, I enjoyed it.
I enjoyed it a lot. Like you said, It's directed

(48:09):
by Michael Ritchie and so it has a lot of interesting.

Speaker 4 (48:14):
Touches to it.

Speaker 3 (48:15):
Timothy Carey plays a character named Preacher Clegg, which I.

Speaker 4 (48:20):
Assume is a.

Speaker 3 (48:21):
Reference to the Cleggs and wagon Master and uh he's
also like yeah, he's also a Bible quoting character. So
it's very similar similar to uh to Donald pleasant and
will Penny. So definitely, yeah, And I enjoyed the stuff
between them, him learning how to read, although at the

(48:44):
beginning when she's like first teaching him, he's only supposed
to be like repeating back what she says, but he
says it as if he's learning, as if he's reading it.

Speaker 2 (48:54):
One thing, now, Stanwick's teaching methods, I mean, Sam is
never gonna learned to reader write like, I mean, he
died too soon to learn anyways, but her approach was
never going to take him anywhere.

Speaker 3 (49:08):
No, but uh yeah, but then so then they end
up going his gang ends up going to rob this
a bank and it goes wrong. It's a bit like
the Northfield, Minnesota A. There's a big gunfight, which is
pretty fun. It's like some of it feels like a
stunt show, but not in a bad way, like kind
of a fun way. But then Michael Richie does some

(49:28):
interesting shots, low angle shots, handheld stuff to keep it interesting.
And uh, I like that it that it was showing
that his desire, his desire to read, was somewhat wrapped
up into him thinking that he was, you know, like

(49:49):
an idiot, you know, which then yeah, after everything goes
wrong with his gang and they all basically abandon him,
you get that there was something more there than just like,
well I want read because I just never learned how right,
And so that yeah, having a like that exploring that
like bit of sympathy because even his plan is stupid

(50:12):
because he does it. Even then they still screw it
up and he kidnaps not just the regular school teacher,
but this lady who's gonna have all these people looking
for her. Right, So even that part of it is is, uh,
you know, he somehow screws it up. So but yeah,
and then at the end of it, when they find

(50:34):
him dead, is it's supposed to be hint It's supposed
to hint that he killed himself, right or no, Oh,
I don't know. I don't know, because they're shooting at
the house and he's shooting back, and then you don't
hear anything and they keep shooting, and then when they
go in they find his body and he has the

(50:54):
gun in his hand.

Speaker 4 (50:56):
But it feels like and I could just be totally reading.

Speaker 3 (51:01):
Far way too much into it, but it feels like
had he had they killed him, they would have shown it.
They couldn't show it, you know, they couldn't show It's
like they almost had to just as subtly hint.

Speaker 4 (51:12):
It just felt like because he.

Speaker 3 (51:13):
Still had the gun in his hand and we didn't
see his death and he was at this place, I
was like, are they kind of sort of hinting that
he committed suicide? I don't know, but maybe if you
didn't read it that way, maybe I'm.

Speaker 2 (51:25):
Just yeah, I thought that he was killed. But yeah,
maybe maybe I could be wrong though, but yeah, I
thought that he was shot and killed.

Speaker 3 (51:34):
Well, from what I remember is he's shooting out the
window and everything, but they don't ever show him. Actually,
I don't remember them showing him get hit.

Speaker 4 (51:41):
You.

Speaker 3 (51:41):
They just keep our They continuously are firing, and then
eventually they go up to that until I just I
was wondering if they why. It just seems like a
weird thing to be like, uh wow, like like to
not show his actual death but then just to show
his body like, well, I guess we got it. Almost
felt the way I read that scene, I felt they

(52:04):
were as hinting as much as they could that the
guy killed himself, you know, for television at that time.

Speaker 4 (52:12):
But I could have totally read way too much into it. Yeah,
but yeah, overall overall it was a It was an
entertaining episode once it started getting a little dull.

Speaker 3 (52:24):
They had a big gun fight and everything. Like you,
I I never really watched The Big Valley, and even
though I love Barbara Stanwick, it just was like it
just nothing about it really I was. It didn't seem
like a show that what I just I didn't even
know what the concept. She just runs it. She has

(52:45):
a she runs a cattle ranch, and she has you know,
her family or sons and stuff there, and you know,
just the concept isn't like the most exciting to me.
So I don't even know what an average episode is
even like. But I found this one entertaining.

Speaker 4 (52:59):
I liked it.

Speaker 2 (53:00):
Yeah, And I would definitely be open to watching more
episodes for sure, because I do. I think the cast
is pretty likable and uh yeah and in this episode
now now Preacher Clegg, yeah, I agree that he he
did remind me of of Donald Pleasantce, like the script
scripture quoting kind of psycho. Now, everyone should look up

(53:24):
Timothy Carey who plays Cleg. His photo on IMDb is amazing.
It is, It's pretty special. But yeah, and Sam's Outlaw Gang.
It isn't as like sadistic of course as the Hunting Party,
but I do think they're pretty effective. Like there's a
moment where Cleig is looking at Stanwick's character and he

(53:44):
says that a woman gives a man an appetite, and
then Stanwick says, yeah, whatever you're gonna do to her,
like go ahead and get it over with, and then
one of the men says, like, you're not here for
the reason that you think you are, and they're all
kind of laughing. It definitely suggests something, of course, would
not happen on sixties TV.

Speaker 4 (54:05):
Yeah, yeah, but yeah, did you.

Speaker 2 (54:07):
Have anything else to add about this episode before we
talk about the Hunting Party?

Speaker 4 (54:14):
Uh? Not much really, most of it is would be in.

Speaker 3 (54:19):
Relationship to the Hunting Party, Uh so, but yeah, Timothy Carey,
he's always fun to see.

Speaker 4 (54:27):
Babousally lost a role in the Godfather.

Speaker 3 (54:28):
Because he kept farting in France Sport Coppolo's office. He
was like, was always farting constantly apparently, and if anyone
hasn't seen his h he's in many ways he's a
bit like the Nicholas Cage at that time.

Speaker 4 (54:43):
I don't know if nickels cage parts, but.

Speaker 3 (54:45):
Just his his acting style and his choices and stuff.

Speaker 4 (54:49):
But his movie The World's the World's Greatest Sinner? Have
you ever seen that? No, he wrote and directed and
stars in it.

Speaker 3 (54:57):
It has a soundtrack by a very young Frank Zappa,
and uh it's uh he's like a televangelist rock star
who declares himself God, and uh, it's it's just an
insane movie.

Speaker 4 (55:12):
I think you should watch it.

Speaker 3 (55:13):
He actually was filming and he got all his extras
to actually like, uh start, he started a riot with
his extras and they're smashing up cars.

Speaker 4 (55:21):
And he just filmed it.

Speaker 3 (55:24):
Then you ease World's Greatest Center Timothy Carrey and insane
insane guy.

Speaker 4 (55:30):
But uh yeah, I mean everything else is in relationship
to the Hunting Party. So uh but it's good. It's
a solid episode. Michael Ritchie is a good director.

Speaker 2 (55:40):
Yeah. Now of course this brings us to the Hunting Party. Now,
this is uh like the nastiest possible version of Teacher
of Outlaws. It was released in nineteen seventy one, and
you and James, I think he touched on this on
wrong reel The Bastard Sons of Sam Peckinpaw episode. But
in seventy one, it was definitely a year where filmmakers

(56:03):
were like pushing the envelope regarding violence and and even
I would say like sexual violence like a clockwork, Orange
Straw Dogs, The Devils, they were all released in seventy one.
Cutthroats nine was released in seventy one, and that's a
pretty grim western. And The Hunting Party was directed by
Don Medford, who like kind of Grys and Peck and Paw.

(56:25):
They both worked on Zane Gray Theater and The Riflemen,
and he actually did he directed Stanwick in an episode
of The Barbara Stanwick Show. But I think the idea
of combining Teacher of Outlaws with the most dangerous game
is actually a pretty solid premise. Unfortunately, I think it's

(56:50):
mostly of interest for its cast and how unpleasant it is.
But what are your thoughts on the Hunting Part and
and do you and do you think it expands on
Teacher of Outlaws like it is it in an interesting way?
Are you are you better or do you think you're
better off just watching the Big Valley?

Speaker 4 (57:10):
Uh?

Speaker 3 (57:12):
I know, I don't think it expands on Teacher of
Outlaws in an interesting way. If any, if if anything,
it's it's it feels like it has less character and
thematic weight, despite the fact that it's from the same writers.

(57:34):
The issue with the film and and and so in
the concept of this one is Oliver Reid is the
head of this gang. He wants to learn how to read.
He kidnaps the school teacher. Turns out she is the
wife of Ruger Brandt, who's some big guy in town
who's like an insane sadist who's on a hunting party

(57:56):
with these high powered rifles.

Speaker 4 (57:58):
Uh and on.

Speaker 3 (58:01):
Once he finds out she's been kidnapped, he goes with
his this hunting party of his friends with all these
high powered rifles to basically decimate Oliver Read's gang. So,
like you said, the concept of it is of an
outlaw who wants to learn how to read. If you're

(58:22):
gonna try to that concept is to a degree inherently humorous.
Not that you would want to bring this into a comedy,
but there's a humorous aspect to that whole idea. And
this is a movie that is completely devoid of humor
outside of like one part where they eat peaches, and

(58:44):
that's not very funny. So the movie is like it
needs to have with that concept. I think for it
to work being this dark, it needs to have a
line of dark humor to it that it just doesn't have.

(59:06):
There's we don't really know why Oliver Reid wants to
learn how to read. It's not it's not there's no reason,
there's nothing, unlike in the other one, we don't know why.
And and you have this character, Candice Bergen's character, who

(59:26):
is especially in comparison to Barbara Stanwick. It's just like
it feels like she has almost no agency and she's kidnapped,
and of course she keeps trying to get away.

Speaker 4 (59:40):
They're constantly trying to sexually assault her.

Speaker 3 (59:43):
Like the movie opens with basically her being I believe,
sexually assaulted by her husband. It doesn't look pleasant, And
it's intercut with cal being gutted, which is just like
the most like crass you know, uh, visual innuendo, like
just like it, but.

Speaker 4 (01:00:05):
We don't we don't.

Speaker 3 (01:00:08):
We don't have any of her agency out of outside
of her trying to run away from them. And then
eventually Oliver Reid rapes her and it doesn't play as
Stockholm syndrome, but she's now in love with him, you know.

Speaker 4 (01:00:23):
And it's like, had we had more of her character,
you could potentially develop.

Speaker 3 (01:00:29):
That as as Stockholm syndrome or of you know, just
how isolated she is with such a shitty husband and everything, right,
but it's never it's never developed, you know, had we
had we seen that she was already like trying to
get away from her husband, had she uh you know,

(01:00:53):
been cheating on him with someone else, or you know
what I mean, had we gotten something like that, something
where we because all we see Bewe in terms of
interaction between her and her husband is him essentially sexually
assaulting her and then being and then that's it.

Speaker 4 (01:01:12):
Yeah, And so it's like, uh, yeah, you.

Speaker 3 (01:01:15):
Just don't you don't know any of what any of
these characters are doing. Gene Hackman's character is just a sadist,
and you have Oliver Reid, who an actor I love,
not a great American accent.

Speaker 4 (01:01:28):
Supposedly he got it from like a hot dog vendor
in New York, that's how you based it on. And
then Gene Hagman, who just has this one note character.
And Gene Hackman is of course great, but uh it Yeah,
it almost feels like not that I want the Donald

(01:01:49):
Pleasants character from Will Penny in this movie, but you
almost feel like you want a little bit more of
that energy, or a little bit more of the Timothy
Carey weird preacher caaracter something else. You know, had the
villain been.

Speaker 3 (01:02:06):
One of like this, you know, that trope of the
religious psychopath outlaw in the Old West or whatever, Well,
he didn't have to be a psychopath, but what if
he had that angle to him and that's why he
wants to learn how to read so he can read
scripture or something. There could be a lot of motivation
here that we don't get. So what you're left with
is like lots of scenes of people trying to to

(01:02:31):
sexually assault candas Bergen. She said that basically her whole
role was just like like.

Speaker 4 (01:02:39):
Getting sexually assaulted and having orgasms.

Speaker 3 (01:02:42):
That's how you described the movie. And you're and it
and the movie is like an almost two hours long,
and you're like, what has even happened?

Speaker 4 (01:02:53):
Like it's just it's it's it's a movie that just
has no it has no it feels like it has
nothing on its mind outside of being unpleasant. Sorry you
you can talk. I'm going on a rent, but that's okay.

Speaker 2 (01:03:14):
So this, Yeah, this was the first time watched for
me and I you know, I wasn't crazy about it.
I I think that it's it's grim and ugly enough
that it makes the movie memorable, you know. I like,
I like the cast. I don't think anybody is really
doing their their best work here, although I Simon Oakland

(01:03:36):
and l Q. Jones actually thought were pretty good. I
do think like I'll like, I like like you. I
I'm definitely an Oliver Reed fan, but he is you know,
he's not good in this. He's always watchable, like he's
just an interesting he's performer to watch. He's got a
great screen presence. One thing that I think is really

(01:03:59):
interesting is like Hackman's catch and release sort of approach
to taking out Oliver Reed and his men. It's kind
of like the thrill of the hunt is either more
satisfying or at least equally satisfying to killing these people.
I mean, he takes immense pleasure out of both. But

(01:04:19):
I think the way Read's character just walks around in
plain sight and maybe other characters do, but like after
getting after characters are getting shot and killed is ridiculous.
Like there's no defense for why these characters don't take
cover immediately. And yet when when people are getting shot,

(01:04:41):
like standing out in the open trying to look, trying
to locate the person shooting at you, it's just a
really dumb idea. I don't know how there's a decent
amount of screen time of it feels like of that happening.
And yeah, there's not a compelling reason for are they
don't give you a reason really at all for Reid

(01:05:02):
to kidnap Oh no, no, no, Well, the reason, of
course is to learn English, but you don't learn how
to read and write. But you don't know why he
wants to do that, So I think giving him a
reason for wanting to learn definitely would have helped. And
and also the jar of the peaches scene, it's all

(01:05:23):
read has to do after you know, raping her is
open a jar of peaches, and it like makes her
laugh and smile and have feelings for him, and it's
and it's a movie that maintains a singular kind of
bleak tone throughout, and it makes this one scene feel

(01:05:44):
so absurd.

Speaker 4 (01:05:47):
Yes, and then.

Speaker 2 (01:05:50):
Another thing, I don't know if this is something that
you know much about but it seems very far fetched
to me the pricing of the rifles that Gene Hackman purchases,
like there's he says that he spent seven hundred dollars
apiece on these rifles, and uh, and I used it

(01:06:13):
an inflation calculator. I don't know how accurate these things are.
I've I've actually I don't know. I don't recall using
one in the past. But according to the calculator I used,
seven hundred dollars would be twenty three thousan twenty eight
dollars now, but which I don't know how accurate that is.
But does that seem like insanely high to you?

Speaker 4 (01:06:35):
Yeah, that that doesn't. That doesn't sound reasonable. I don't.

Speaker 3 (01:06:42):
I don't know exactly that I know the guns that
they that he's what he says they are is different,
okay then what they use in the movie.

Speaker 4 (01:06:52):
But that doesn't even that gun wouldn't wouldn't have been
that expensive.

Speaker 3 (01:06:57):
I I I'm not sure why, but I think it
was probably written in the script as one gun. But
the movie is like a British co production, I believe, okay,
and shot in Spain, and so I wonder if they
just didn't have access because I think the rifles they
end up using our British models that they might have

(01:07:18):
mocked up, or maybe they didn't even mock them up.
But no, that's that seems like absurd pricing to me.
I can't, I can't, but yeah, you're right.

Speaker 4 (01:07:31):
In that.

Speaker 3 (01:07:32):
It's like the movie is stripped down so much character
and story and everything to these bear essentials, well not
even bear essentials, not even essentials, but what maybe what
the filmmakers thought they were doing. But like you said,

(01:07:52):
you don't even get the joy of like the hunt
or the strategy because there's no strategy. It doesn't you know,
had they had it been like a cat and mouse thing.
But yeah, Oliver Reid's gang, they just they just keep
riding out in the open and and and it's yeah,
and then at one point he rides a horse to

(01:08:14):
them somehow and then he's shooting two pistols. No, and
they don't have rifles, none of them seem to have
rifles on their horses or anything.

Speaker 4 (01:08:22):
They only have pistols. Uh, And yeah, it's just yeah,
there's it's it's a movie that like.

Speaker 3 (01:08:32):
The riding is just it's very bad. But you're like,
why is this movie this long? Like as you said,
the value of it comes from like how to just
see kind of how mean and nasty a Western Western
can get, you know. It's like a curiosity in that sense,

(01:08:53):
the same way that's something like Dirty Little Billy is
like worth seeing just to see how like filthy and
pointless a western could be.

Speaker 4 (01:09:00):
You know.

Speaker 3 (01:09:02):
But but it's like, had they cut like thirty minutes,
I wouldn't say it would become a good movie, but
it might have been sort of a fun just piece
of you know, shitty pulp, you know, And it's not.
It's it's it's like a I don't even I don't

(01:09:25):
I don't know what the themes are. I know that
that Oliver Reed said, it's the villain in this movie
is violence. Like it's supposed to be like an anti
violence message, but it doesn't.

Speaker 4 (01:09:39):
But it's not.

Speaker 3 (01:09:40):
It's not anti anti violence. It revels in violence. It
just and it doesn't you know it because it's not.
Because it's not because there's no actual like joy in
the film, or there's nothing to contrast just the bleed.
Outside of eating peaches, everything else is just just.

Speaker 4 (01:10:02):
This bleak, dirty, bloody slog.

Speaker 3 (01:10:08):
So you're like, so it's not when you just when
you're fully just being like gritty and mean, and you're
just re emphasizing that point this is gritty and mean,
it becomes it becomes pointless because you don't have a contrast.

Speaker 4 (01:10:26):
You don't have you don't you don't you don't see
what these people are losing. They're just people riding around
getting shot, you know, right. And it's so it's not
a movie that's anti violence. It's like a movie that's
anti life.

Speaker 3 (01:10:40):
It's anti human because there's no this is not a
tragedy like oh, their lives were cut short, Like how
senseless it was.

Speaker 4 (01:10:50):
It's I mean, it would have been.

Speaker 3 (01:10:53):
If they were actually had a reason for him kidnapping her,
or reason for wanting to read that's just outside of
he just wants to do it. Then you could have
been like it was all because he wanted to read.
But it's not all because because he wanted to read.
It's because he kidnap a guy's wife.

Speaker 4 (01:11:11):
You know. Yes, So you can't.

Speaker 3 (01:11:13):
Even go like, oh, the absurdity of how a violence,
of how it got to that level you kidnap a
guy's wife, obviously, Gene Hackman is an evil character, but
if he hunts you down with rifles, I don't you know,
it's not like how sensens violence is, you know, So
I don't know. I don't know if they were trying
to do some kind of Vietnam allegory, which is always

(01:11:35):
a bad way to approach a Western. I don't know
what they were what they were getting at.

Speaker 4 (01:11:40):
But it's a movie that I feel, you know, could
have had you. I think it was originally.

Speaker 3 (01:11:52):
Proposed to Rod Steiger and Claire Bloom and not that
I think there's a version of this movie that would
work with the script it has. But you know, Rod Steiger,
who I in either of the lead roles, might have
brought something because Rod Seger is a bit of a
ham but he's might that might bring something to this

(01:12:15):
Where's like Gene Hackman is great, he's a great actor,
but he's not elevating this role. You know, he's just
not you know what I mean. He's not bringing much
to it. And he was very unhappy with this movie.
This is the movie that I think when they were
trying to get him to do the French Connection, he
was like, I don't want to do violent movies. This

(01:12:36):
was the movie that like swore him. I like, I
don't want to do violent movies anymore. I did that one.
I needed a I needed a paycheck. But he was
not proud of this. I think Oliver Reid was the
only one who kind of stood up for this movie.
But but yeah, it's just it's just too long. There's
I mean, the one outside of the cast. The scenes

(01:12:59):
of violence, the slow motion, squibbed up scenes of violence
are well done. It's really the one piece of direction
that that works in the film. The editor was Tom
was it Tom Tom Wolf And he later edited like
Taxi Driver, Heaven's Gate. He so he's like a great

(01:13:20):
editor at least of like, you know, scenes of of gunfire.
Uh but uh but yeah, and then the music by
Rizz Ordolani. They're trying to do a little bit of
a you know, it's it's it's a little bit of
a peg and it's definitely a peg and pauw riff,
but it's also uh, spaghetti western sort of riff in

(01:13:42):
a way too. But the his yeah, but his music
is just it's just drones. It's just kind of the
same theme over and over again. It's it's doesn't it
doesn't work for for whatever they're trying to do in
this movie, I don't think.

Speaker 4 (01:14:00):
So.

Speaker 3 (01:14:00):
Yeah, it's it's it's not great, but it might be
worth seeing just to see the most one of the
most nihilistic, violent, unpleasant lesterns.

Speaker 4 (01:14:14):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (01:14:15):
Like I said on the Wrong Rel episode, Michael Ritchie
honestly would have been a better choice for the film.
You know, he prime cut with Gene Hackman as the villain,
and it's like his kind of his kind of black humor,
you know, he you know, he had black humor. He's

(01:14:36):
a bit of a pervert, you know, Like, uh, that's
the energy this movie needed, and it doesn't have it.
So there's no it's just a joyless movie.

Speaker 2 (01:14:49):
It's funny that Oliver Reed thought that this movie was
about violence, because when when I was looking at the
like the character's name on IMDb, like the name Ruger
is of course a type of firearm or or is
it a type of firearm? Or is it just a company?

Speaker 4 (01:15:10):
Yeah? The company, the company.

Speaker 2 (01:15:12):
And then of course one character's last name is gun,
and so I started looking up other characters' last names.
I was like, I wonder if these have something to
do with firearms. But that theory went away very very quickly.
But I had one one more question actually about the guns.
So I think he says that they are accurate at

(01:15:34):
up to eight hundred yards. I was wondering if, like
I think the movie, I don't think they say when
it takes place. I'm assuming it's like eighteen eighties somewhere
in there. But a rifle shooting like accurately at eight
hundred yards would that be like science fiction like for
these characters. Is that one reason why they could be

(01:15:56):
looking around wondering where the shots are coming from.

Speaker 4 (01:16:00):
Yeah, eight hundred yards? Hmm. Let me I that's a
good question.

Speaker 2 (01:16:10):
Because it plays really poorly watching it, you're just like,
why aren't you running for cover? But maybe eight hundred
yards was just completely unheard of, unheard of at the
time that this movie takes place.

Speaker 3 (01:16:25):
Yeah, I think I think it's I think it's possible.
I think eight hundred yards is possible, but it was
that would Yeah, that would be a very powerful.

Speaker 4 (01:16:41):
Gun because at the at the Battle of Adobe Walls,
the Second Battle of Adobe Walls, Billy Dixon had shot
a commanche There's controversy as to like how how far
it was, but it was round a thousand yards.

Speaker 3 (01:17:03):
Okay, but so yeah, and I can't remember I don't
remember the specific guns that he says that they are.

Speaker 4 (01:17:11):
I just remember.

Speaker 3 (01:17:14):
I wrote I did a thread about misidentified firearms in
Westerns and so I have all the info there. But
but uh, yeah, but eight hundred yards, I guess would
be it would be possible. But yeah, that would be
a very you know, those would be a very long
range rifles.

Speaker 4 (01:17:33):
That would be your your average gun.

Speaker 3 (01:17:35):
Probably not when you're gonna spend twenty three thousand dollars
for whatever yet, but but yeah, it's yeah, it's like, yeah,
even even even even with its premise, it's it's it's
just they didn't even do like the homework to make it,
to make the hunt believable. So yeah, it's it's it's

(01:18:01):
it's a rough one and and it's always This was
a movie I had to buy like a bootleg VHS
of like twenty years ago to see it, and it
was very bad.

Speaker 4 (01:18:10):
And I remember at the time like kind of liking
it just because of how nasty it was.

Speaker 2 (01:18:17):
Yeah, but it.

Speaker 3 (01:18:20):
Is a movie that I think has grown somewhat in
stature amongst some people just because of how nasty it is.

Speaker 4 (01:18:28):
But but it's bad.

Speaker 2 (01:18:33):
Yeah, I'm glad. I'm glad I saw it. I think
it's worth watching once. But yeah, and I remember like
hearing you and James talk about it and being intrigued.
But I also knew neither one of you were very
positive on it, and I can I can see why
not now now that I've seen it, Like I.

Speaker 3 (01:18:54):
Enjoy I enjoyed now like really bleak, nasty westerns.

Speaker 4 (01:19:00):
I think that if you're if you're going to go
that route, you really have to know how to you know, like, uh,
like Blood Meridian is obviously that's got a lot of
depth and humor and a lot of other things going
on with it. But it's like, if you're just gonna
be a nasty, gross little Western, like, don't waste my time,
just get in, get out and make it entertaining, you know.

Speaker 3 (01:19:25):
But I but, like I said, a lot of people
enjoy the novelty of like a Cutthroat's nine or you know,
are the hero gets killed, you know, the great silence
and stuff, and this is definitely of a piece with those,
but but not.

Speaker 4 (01:19:41):
As well, I would say, not as well made as
those either.

Speaker 2 (01:19:45):
So all right, well, I think, uh yeah, at this point,
are you ready to move on to The Rebel?

Speaker 4 (01:19:52):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (01:19:53):
Yes, all right? So, uh, I don't think I had
seen I'm pretty sure I had never seen in any
episodes of The Rebel prior to prepping for this. I
know it was created by Nick Adams, who is the
star of the series. He plays Johnny Yuma and the
other creator is Andrew Finday. I think it is Infinity,

(01:20:16):
And I recognized Nick Adams from The Last Wagon, which
also which James Drewy has a very minor role in
as well. But Nick Adams was also another Western series,
like he was in the zan Gray Theater. I mean,
at some point all Western actors, writers and directors had

(01:20:37):
to go through the Zay Gray Theater. It was just required.
But he and Nick Adams was also in episodes of Trackdown,
which was Robert Culp's that was That was a series
that he starred in, and he was in Tales of Wells, Fargo,
Wagon Train.

Speaker 4 (01:20:52):
And then.

Speaker 2 (01:20:55):
Finity. He also produced a pilot for a series called
The Yank which which I believe would have starred James Drewy,
but it never got picked up. And uh yeah, in
the episode we're talking about did I say the episode
name is fair Game? I don't know if I did.

Speaker 4 (01:21:12):
Oh, well you did, now I did?

Speaker 2 (01:21:14):
Now it's the episode is called fair Game. Oh and
and uh oh yeah Infinity. He also wrote a couple
episodes of Branded, and he has a story credit and
was a producer on Chisholm. But yeah, and fair Game
was also it was one of thirty five episodes that
were directed by Irvin Kershner, who, of course he directed

(01:21:34):
The Empire Strikes Back. So it's kind of interesting to
see where his career started. But from what I've seen,
which is just a couple episodes, it seems like this
series is just Johnny Yuma wandering around, kind of getting
into adventures.

Speaker 4 (01:21:50):
Yeah, as the Johnny Cash song explains, Yeah, he's a rebel.
He roamed through the West. Johnny was a rebel. He
wandered along, right, Yeah, he wondered. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:22:05):
But yeah, and this way. This episode is written by
Richard Newman, and he wrote a couple more episodes of
The Rebel, and he also wrote episodes of Laramie and Bonanza.
But uh, but yeah, what did you think of this episode?

Speaker 4 (01:22:18):
Uh?

Speaker 2 (01:22:19):
I'd probably do a synopsis first.

Speaker 3 (01:22:22):
Okay, Uh yeah, So yeah. The rebel is about uh yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:22:29):
A Civil War veteran, a rebel wandering through the West
getting an adventures.

Speaker 3 (01:22:36):
And uh, and this one starts with him. He's he's
carrying his saddle on his back. His horse has died, and.

Speaker 4 (01:22:45):
He's, uh, he's gonna stay the night at this stage
coach station. Uh.

Speaker 3 (01:22:50):
A stage coach pulls up, a woman comes out, she's
in handcuffs. There's a bounty hunter with her. She's you know,
she's going.

Speaker 4 (01:22:59):
To be taken to be hanged for a murder. So
then they go into the stagecoach station.

Speaker 3 (01:23:05):
The regular owner, who the regular person who runs it
isn't there.

Speaker 4 (01:23:10):
There's a few other guys there.

Speaker 3 (01:23:13):
There's one guy who's very upset that this bounty hunter
is you know, being so you know as arrested a
woman and everything.

Speaker 4 (01:23:21):
It's not proper and all that. And then uh uh
somebody poisons the water supply. Uh.

Speaker 3 (01:23:30):
The bounty hunter character, uh, it is poisoned and dies.
The the rebel that Nick Adams character basically uh starts
interrogating everyone figuring out who's who's done it.

Speaker 4 (01:23:44):
Who's the person that's poisoned? Uh, you know who who
wants who's trying to get the who's trying to uh
rescue this this uh woman, this criminal woman, and yeah,
and then it becomes a mystery from there.

Speaker 2 (01:24:00):
All right. Yeah, So I thought fair Game was was
pretty good. I enjoyed it more than the other episode
of The Rebel that I watched. I'm a huge fan
of James Drewy. I love him in villain roles. I
actually got into The Virginian because I really liked him
in the episode of The Rifleman where he plays the villain,
which I think is the first episode Peckinpah directed, and

(01:24:24):
I thought he was really good in this. Nick Adams
isn't the greatest, Like for some reason, I just don't
buy him as a character who can walk into any
situation and find himself in control of how it unfolds.
So for me, like Drewy was the highlight of the episode.

(01:24:45):
And I will say I did assume he would be
the character who is trying to free Cynthia. But even
with even kind of having that feeling from the beginning,
I still kind of enjoyed watching the mystery unfold. But
but what did you think of this one?

Speaker 3 (01:25:07):
It's like you said, I enjoyed I enjoyed it. It's
the mystery of it, isn't Isn't that compelling? It's yeah,
I don't know. I mean, uh, there's outside of its
premise it's it's uh, it's just a it's a solid,

(01:25:29):
small little episode. I think that it's it definitely it like,
for example, like the in comparison to to the other ones,
the Big Valley episode had at least twice as long
to tell its story.

Speaker 4 (01:25:47):
But if you compared to like.

Speaker 3 (01:25:48):
Line Camp, uh, that one, I think, you know, has
so much more like detail and it's like, I don't know.

Speaker 4 (01:25:59):
It's it's it's a outside of I guess it's. It's
it's concept and it's and it's touched is about.

Speaker 3 (01:26:08):
Like this having a lady prisoner and and stuff. It's
not There's not a lot about it that like is outstanding.

Speaker 4 (01:26:17):
It's just a solid, uh little mystery that gets wrapped up.
Once again.

Speaker 3 (01:26:23):
It's the most interest that comes from it is in
relation to you know, the movie that you know took
a lot from it.

Speaker 4 (01:26:32):
Yeah, so yeah, it's just it.

Speaker 3 (01:26:35):
To me, it feels like a a pretty standard.

Speaker 4 (01:26:41):
Little, you know, Western story. I liked.

Speaker 3 (01:26:44):
I liked the guy who is so offended by this
bounty hunter, you know, having this female prisoner like that's inappropriate.
But once once like the poisoning happens, he's like he's like, uh,
what does he say to her?

Speaker 4 (01:27:00):
Like I'll throttle your neck or something or yeah, he
wants to he like he wants to like beat her
to death. So uh so that you know, that was
kind of a funny.

Speaker 3 (01:27:13):
Uh character switch, but but that felt natural.

Speaker 4 (01:27:17):
It didn't feel like it came out of nowhere.

Speaker 3 (01:27:18):
It's like, yeah, of course that asshole would you know
he'd be the one that reacted that way. But it's
one of those things too that it's like, uh, the
I think the reason that James Drury is obviously the
guy who is you know, the poisoner is just because

(01:27:38):
he's the one that he's just the one that has
the most character to him outside the other guy who complained,
you know, and and setting him up as the guy
who's who's already upset that she's in chains. You know,
that's not going to be the guy. Same thing with
the stage coach station guy who's who he's not the

(01:27:58):
regular one there.

Speaker 4 (01:28:01):
Uh, you know, that's probably not going to be him
because they're giving you that that clue which basically telling
you it's not him by by trying to get you
to think that, but also just because they don't give
him a whole lot to do outside of just cutting
a chicken, you know, right. So yeah, it's just it's
uh uh, there's there's nice little touches here and there.

(01:28:24):
It's got a nice setup.

Speaker 3 (01:28:27):
It is something that you go, yeah, that could be expanded,
maybe not three hours plus, but yeah, I thought it
was just like a yeah, a nice little one location
episode that was probably a throwaway, you know, like probably
one of the cheaper ones the season, like get everyone

(01:28:49):
in a room, you know, we'll set everything there.

Speaker 4 (01:28:52):
Uh, we don't have to go to you know, we
only have to go to one set.

Speaker 2 (01:28:55):
So yeah, and you know, I think this is maybe
one probab that's definitely a problem with it. Where the
other episode of The Rebel I watched was I can't
remember the title, but it was also a single location.
So I so based, of course, I'm basing this off

(01:29:16):
of seeing two episodes of a series that had I
think seventy six episodes or something like that. But the
more stage bound a series is just the obviously that
gives it a lower production value, and so even the Westerner,
you get a glimpse of exterior you seemingly like, you know,

(01:29:41):
on location shots with cattle. You know, it makes it
feel like a lived in world where this is obviously
a sound stage. And that's how the other episode of
The Rebel was that I watched as well. Yeah, do
you have any I don't really, Yeah, I don't really
have any other anything else to add on this. It's

(01:30:01):
a pretty simple, I'm like, mildly kind of entertaining episode.
Did you Did you have any other thoughts?

Speaker 3 (01:30:11):
No, not really, most of them are going to be
in relation to the to the movie.

Speaker 2 (01:30:17):
Yeah. Yeah. Now, now this I think is a moment
that I think quite a few listeners will actually be
sort of waiting for. So we were talking about Quentin
Tarantino's The Hateful Eight, and this is by far the
newest movie that I've covered on the show, and and
and maybe one of the most divisive as well. But like, yeah,

(01:30:39):
even lesser known movies I've talked about I think are
pretty well liked. But I know people who rank The
Hateful Eight very high in Tarantino's filmography, And then I
know people who thinks it is his worst movie. And uh,
and since this movie is so recent, I don't think
we need to go through like cast and crew and

(01:31:00):
all that kind of stuff. All these people are, as
far as I know, are still active and working.

Speaker 4 (01:31:08):
Now.

Speaker 2 (01:31:09):
I know you, now you didn't like The Hateful Eight
at least the first time around. But uh, but what
what what did you think of it?

Speaker 4 (01:31:17):
Did?

Speaker 2 (01:31:17):
Like? Did you rewatch it for this.

Speaker 4 (01:31:20):
Yes? Yeah, I did?

Speaker 2 (01:31:21):
Okay, Okay, So what what were what were your thoughts
on on a rewatch?

Speaker 4 (01:31:28):
Uh?

Speaker 3 (01:31:29):
I still don't love it. I got a lot of thoughts.
I kind of want to hear your thoughts. I kind
of want to hear your thoughts. I've got a lot
of thoughts. But I kind of want to because because
you are a fan, right.

Speaker 2 (01:31:43):
Yes, so I I am a fan. Okay. So now
I will say at this point, I've seen The Hateful
Eight quite a few times. I saw it three times
in theaters, okay. And I will say straight up, I
am a huge Tarantino fan. I he's one of the
filmmakers that really got me into movies. I didn't grow

(01:32:06):
up with a lot of friends who were into different movies.
I'll say, and so or like cult movies or any
you know, kind of different like subgenre movies. And so
when I kind of discovered Quentin Tarantino and started hearing

(01:32:27):
or like read or see seeing or reading his interviews
and finding out about all these movies, it just made
it expanded my kind of like my film watching. I
just started watching a way a much wider variety of
movies because of him. So yes, I'm a huge fan.

(01:32:51):
I saw this It opened on Christmas Day, and I
saw it with my wife, and she was absolutely miserable
during this movie, and her misery did affect my experience
a little bit, and I went back by myself and
I had a better experience. And then I saw it
a third time with I took my grandfather to go

(01:33:13):
see it. My grandfather's favorite movie was pulp fiction, and
so whenever there was a new Tarantino movie in theaters,
we would always go. And he that was the best experience.
He loved it, He thought it was hilarious. He had
just a great time watching it. And then I rewatched

(01:33:38):
I think most, if not all, of Tarantino's movies leading
up to Once Upon a Time in Hollywood and that
time the hatefully I still enjoyed it, but it was
going down in my rankings a little bit. And then
I rewatched it for this and it did it went

(01:33:58):
down a little more. I still enjoy it. I think
it's over long. I mean, it's definitely over long. And
one thing that unfortunately made it feel longer is it
took me three sittings to finish it. I watch movies.
I wake up early and watch movies, and one of
my kids woke up early each morning I tried to

(01:34:21):
watch it, so it took me three mornings, and so
watching it over a three day period really didn't help it.
I felt like the movie was I felt like I
was watching it, you know, for three days straight basically,
which made it feel even longer. Now, some of my
complaints one, this movie could lose seven minutes by cutting

(01:34:48):
out repeated lines of dialogue. They are so many instances
of a character. The one that comes to mind is
I think when they're ha dinner, Chris Mannix, the Walton
Goggins character is talking to Major Warren Sam Jackson's character

(01:35:12):
and he's like and he says, like you so you're
telling me you have a letter from Abraham Lincoln. And
Sam Jackson's like, yes, and then Mannix is like, so
you're trying to tell me that you corresponded with the
President of the United States, and it's just like, oh
my gosh, I don't think we really need this. And

(01:35:32):
then I like kind of what transpires because of this,
where Kurt Russell learns that Jackson has been lying about
the letter and that he uses it to whenever he's
in a situation where he is maybe has a run

(01:35:54):
in with potentially racist white characters. I'm pretty sure there's
other repeated lines. That's just the moment that stood out
to me. And then another issue. I know Tarantina well,
obviously we all know he loves non linear storytelling, but

(01:36:17):
I think this would be a better movie if it
started off with Channing Tatum and the Outlaws arriving at
Miny's Habitashar and killing everybody. I think seeing how all
the villains are acting during this scene, I think would
make their performances in the rest of the movie work
better because you know that they aren't being themselves when

(01:36:41):
you meet them. They are seemingly very fake, and this
is something Tarantino loves doing. He loves putting his characters
in a position where they have to be someone else,
you know, even if it's just for a scene. I
mean like in Pulp Fiction, you know, Vincent Vega and
Sam Jackson's character Jules, you know, they have a long

(01:37:02):
conversation about foot massages and then they say, let's get into
character so and then in that scene they go and
become you know, violent hitman. And then in Reservoir Dogs
there's a scene where Tim Roth's character is even like
rehearsing how he's going to act when he before he
tells this fake hight story. And so having a character

(01:37:25):
be someone else is just something Tarantino loves doing. But
I think if you see it them in the at
the beginning of the movie and you know, Channing Tatum
is in the basement, I do think it would create
It would create some more tension and suspense throughout the
movie instead of just having the moment where you're surprised

(01:37:47):
that Warren's you know, nuts get shot off, shut shot off.

Speaker 4 (01:37:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:37:53):
I still think the performances are mostly good. I especially
like Kurt Russell and Sam Jackson. Kurt also might actually
be my favorite actor. He's just so fun to watch
and him angry just really works for me. I just
think he's hilarious. Jennifer Jason Lee. I'm a little mixed on.

(01:38:16):
I don't think it's a bad performance, but I think
she's more effective when she doesn't have so much dialogue.
And then when you meet Channing Tatum and he's her
brother and he's this smooth talking gentleman, it makes it
I don't know, for some reason, that makes her performance

(01:38:38):
work even less for me. And I do think Channing
Tatum is just weird casting. I think that is a
kind of an unusual casting decision. I think, Yeah, I
do like that this is This movie is a bit
darker than other Tarantino movies, and I think it's interesting

(01:38:59):
that I like seeing Mannix and Warren kind of come
together at the end and kind of have to be
a team. So see, I still enjoy it. I do
think I was feeling the length and seeing the flaws
though much more this time around.

Speaker 3 (01:39:18):
Yeah, It's it's not a movie that I hate. I'm
I consider myself a fan of Tarantino.

Speaker 4 (01:39:28):
You know. Uh.

Speaker 3 (01:39:30):
Yeah, pulp fiction came out when I was like thirteen fourteen,
and I remember seeing that and being confused by it
but interested, and of course, you know, he Tarantino is.
You know, he did point a lot of us and
you know in the direction of you know, underseen movies
or exploitation or spaghetti westerns and stuff. You know, I

(01:39:52):
think that he was definitely influential for me with you
know that that kind of stuff. So, like, there's some
of those movies I love, some I don't like as much.
The kill Bills ones I've never truly loved because I
at that point I had already seen like Lady Snowblood

(01:40:13):
and they call her like every like he's making like
a genre sampler plate, and I don't feel that it
coheres for me because I'm like, Okay, I've seen this
scene and it's just kind of put together. And same
thing with like death Proof, I'm not I don't. I
don't love that one, but like everything else that everything

(01:40:34):
else he's directed, I've either like really liked or loved.

Speaker 4 (01:40:40):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (01:40:40):
But and I remember when the script got leaked for
this one, and so maybe it's a little unfair, but
I did read the and he was not going to
make the movie because it got leaked, you know r
and then he was gonna sue Cockera and all that stuff.
But but I was bored and I was at work,
and so I was like, I'll just read it, and
I remember reading it, and then when he canceled it,

(01:41:03):
I was like, ooh, good that. I don't know if
that was his best, you know, but I was like,
but I was like, I wanted to make another Western
as flawed as Jangle n Chain is. I find the
movie like wildly entertaining. It could be trimmed and it's
got issues, but if I find that, like, that's.

Speaker 4 (01:41:20):
A very enjoyable movie for me, but.

Speaker 3 (01:41:24):
U And then he announced he was gonna make it
again and he's rewriting it, and I was like, okay,
there's that's cool. Then it got leaked online and I
watched it online online, and then my girlfriend at the
time was excited. She'd gotten to Comic Con and saw
the panel and everything, and so we went out to
go to the seventy millimeter you know, theater to see

(01:41:46):
it the extended version, and and I'd already watched it,
and I had to pretend I hadn't seen it. So
then like, I'm like, maybe it's seventy millimeter, I'll like it,
and uh. And then my girlfriend ended up hating it
and everything and I was still kind of like, uh,
something I ever hated it. I was just like, ugh,
and for me, it's too long. It is it is,

(01:42:13):
and I think that I think it feels it feels
like it's like a first draft. Tarantino's dialogue sometimes could
be annoying, but it's usually it's usually very good, and
he's usually good at like hiding exposition in the dialogue.

(01:42:36):
You know, the way in fiction, the whole foot massage
thing is, you know, it's a whole monologue, but you're
actually but he's getting the exposition out about he's gonna
have to take his boss's wife out and Tony Rockery
horror got thrown you know whatever, off of building or something.
So you're getting backstory, but it sounds like conversation, right.

(01:42:58):
And in this movie, the first I don't know hour
of the movie, almost all of the dialogue is they
meet a character. One of the other characters knows who
that person is somehow. They just in the West, they
just all know each other spaces.

Speaker 4 (01:43:19):
And it's like every every single time it'll be one kid,
do you know who this is? The hangman? The hangman?
He always do is this, Oh, this is mister mal Quaz,
you know, he's the one, and it's like they know
their whole backstories, and it's like, I don't know if
he thinks that he's smuggling in the exposition by having

(01:43:41):
another character talk about it, but it's just and then
the character just sits there as a guy goes on
a monologue and he burned all those people to death,
and I don't you know, it's like and so and
then Colonel smithers Wow, and it's just uh, yeah, every
character they just give these speeches.

Speaker 3 (01:44:00):
And not only that, it's all played. It's all played big,
you know, yes, and so you know, at least in
some parts could be like hey, I know who I
know who you are? You know or something. It doesn't
oh general'sma, there's oh my god. So that I think
is a huge problem with the movie.

Speaker 2 (01:44:22):
And it also doesn't make sense when they don't know
who someone is, because if Joe Gage and Tim Roth's
character and Bob the Mexican or whatever, if they're part
of the Demingre gang and you know, and they have

(01:44:42):
rewards they're wanted to and I think that they say like, oh,
this person's actually got a twelve thousand dollars reward on them,
where Daisy has a ten thousand dollars reward on her
and like Channing Tatum hides in the basement. You assume

(01:45:03):
because of wanted posters and they would recognize him and
they would know that he's the brother. Why don't they? Also,
why do they not recognize these other three characters if
they run in the same gang?

Speaker 4 (01:45:15):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:45:15):
Or how does uh? How does John Ruth recognize Chris
Mannix from his dad?

Speaker 4 (01:45:23):
Yes, He's like, he's like, I know your father? Like
how like how did you just because of Walton Walton
Goggin's teeth, Like it's I got I know, I know
those choppers anywhere? Like what how does he know him
from his dad? I mean, uh, So that that's an issue.

(01:45:44):
I think that.

Speaker 3 (01:45:47):
I think that most of the performances in this movie
are not great, and I think Tarantino usually gets great
performances out of people.

Speaker 2 (01:45:56):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 4 (01:45:58):
Samuel Jackson is just Samuel L.

Speaker 3 (01:45:59):
Jackson and Brewstern is just Brewster and they're fine.

Speaker 4 (01:46:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:46:06):
Kurt Russell, I'm I'm a Kurl Spanning. He's not my
favorite actor, and he does things in this movie that
I do enjoy. Don't make me horse laugh and then
he does his like mustaching. I love that, Like that's
a great touch.

Speaker 4 (01:46:18):
And stuff it.

Speaker 2 (01:46:19):
Yeah, but.

Speaker 4 (01:46:21):
I and I don't put this on the actress.

Speaker 3 (01:46:23):
I feel this is Tarantino for some reason. But everyone
is so dialed up, Like everyone is so dialed up
outside of Michael Madson, who.

Speaker 4 (01:46:35):
Looks like he's about to fall asleep. So it's like
almost everything in Kurt Russell says, you go over there,
you know, and it's like there's a little bit if
he's doing a little bit of a John Wayne kind
of diction, but like very as opposed to like John
Wayne's sort of silently and it's just it's it's just

(01:46:56):
to me, it's too much. The same thing with Walton Goggins.
It's too much. The same thing with Jennifer Jason Lee.
It's too much Tim Roth. It's too much.

Speaker 3 (01:47:04):
It's like they're all they all feel like uh, caricatures.
And usually in in you know, like in Inglorious Bastards,
you get, you know, you get the Brad Pitt character
who's a little over top of but this is like
everyone is playing like they're the Brad pit character. It's

(01:47:24):
like everyone is. That's it's like take it down. And
so it's like it's all in this one location. It's
it's the The dialogue is not great and the actors
are so dialed up, so you're just kind of like
stuck there and if it works for you, it works
for you. I've heard people describe this movie like this

(01:47:46):
was like the tavern scene in Glorious Bastards, just like
stretched out and it's like if if that's how you
feel that that could be great, that sounds cool to me.

Speaker 4 (01:47:56):
There's no tension. It's like there's it doesn't this is
I know, he.

Speaker 3 (01:48:04):
Was like he drew like comparisons to like the thing
and stuff that I I didn't feel there was any
really any tension and very little suspense uh about it,
you know.

Speaker 4 (01:48:16):
And so.

Speaker 3 (01:48:19):
Yeah, and and and and it's and and you're like, well,
what is he even getting at. I know he's trying
to make some kind of uh maybe some kind of
message here about the school war and race and stuff,
but I don't know what it builds up to. I know,
someone's weird interpretation, which I don't think this is what
is his point.

Speaker 4 (01:48:37):
But it was like.

Speaker 3 (01:48:40):
It was like, yeah, that's America. The races come together
to oppress women, you know, because it ends with him
lynching this lady. But it's like, I don't think that
was the message. So uh so, yeah, I don't really know.
And in relationship to the episode, you know and turn,
you know, somebody who gets you know, he gets accused

(01:49:02):
of stealing a lot, right, and and he does steal.
And when he does it, well he will he recontextualizes it,
he uses it in a different way. He you know,
when when he's just like, I'm just gonna do this scene.

(01:49:22):
This is just my version of that scene when it's
just like when it's like a sampler plate, like you know,
I think it works, it doesn't work as well. And
whatever the morality of you know, of lifting a bunch
of different things. Everyone steals and stuff. This is a
really one to one steal from the that Rebel episode.

(01:49:48):
Outside of really the twist. You have the female prisoner,
you have the bounty hunter who gets poisoned. You have
the Civil War veteran whose horses died they're all stuck there.
You have the guy who's runn the place who is
not the regular person. He's even there cutting a chicken.

Speaker 4 (01:50:05):
Uh. It's just you know, it's it's it's a it's
a whole cell lift, and.

Speaker 2 (01:50:13):
Even down to details like when before they eat, she
wants her handcuffs off, and I think that he uncuffs
one of her cuffs like in then in Fair Game
as well.

Speaker 3 (01:50:26):
Yes, yeah, and yeah, and then just also the way
once the poisoning happens, how the the you know, the
the veteran character you know, lines everyone one up and starts,
you know, interrogating them and all that, and it's like, uh,
you know, I know that.

Speaker 4 (01:50:46):
With with Reservoir Dogs. Very early on Mike White.

Speaker 3 (01:50:50):
Who does the Projection Booth podcast, of which I did,
I guessed it on one time.

Speaker 4 (01:50:55):
I don't know if you ever heard of It's a
Good Movie podcast, very uh detailed. It's a good it's good.
But way back when in nineteen ninety two and when
Resve Dogs first came out, he had seen it and
he was already aware of City on Fire, and so
he's the one that cut together it was this thing

(01:51:15):
called who do you Think You're Fooling?

Speaker 3 (01:51:17):
And that was basically just cut together the scenes from
Resboo Dogs and City on Fire, And there was some controversy.
I remember there's like an MTV News segment where supposedly
Tarantino denies having ever seen City on Fire.

Speaker 4 (01:51:34):
This is in the nineties. They call it a.

Speaker 3 (01:51:37):
They called a kung fu movie, and they call it
a Japanese film. So MTV News wasn't the best for that.

Speaker 4 (01:51:43):
But but he's been ever since, he's been pretty open
and he's since acknowledged, you know, City on Fire was
an influence, and he's been open about his influences. But yeah,
he but he does things. He does things where it's like,

(01:52:04):
I think there's plausible deniability.

Speaker 3 (01:52:05):
He doesn't come out and say this one was the
one I'm basing it on.

Speaker 4 (01:52:11):
He'll kind of go around it.

Speaker 3 (01:52:13):
So like in the City, like in the restport or script,
he'll thank like Chalian fat or something. But that's not
an acknowledgment, you know. And I remember when he was
doing the press the rounds for The Hateful Eight, he
would talk about how every episode of the of a
Western TV show would have they'd be all trapped in
one set because of a blizzard or something else, and

(01:52:36):
it's sort of an outcast of poker flats kind of idea,
And so he was really basing it on those types
of episodes, and he would name a bunch of episodes,
but he never named the rebel, yeah, you know. And
I don't know if he has some.

Speaker 4 (01:52:51):
Backwards sing where he just pays off someone like I
don't know, because I feel that you could potentially have.

Speaker 3 (01:53:01):
You know, someone probably dead now the guy who with
the original. But I feel that they would have a
case here. Whether or not that doesn't I don't. I mean,
if the movie was good, I don't care. Like I
think with Reservoir Dogs, he does something different with City
on Fire. I still think he's obviously clearly steals from it.

(01:53:25):
And if ring O Lamb wanted to assume, you know,
I think he'd also have a case, but he does
something different with it. I don't think he does enough
different with this outside of changing the twist and then
just stretching it out and making it more unpleasant. But
I don't I don't really see where, you know, I

(01:53:46):
don't really see where he's really reworked or rethought the
material in any kind of way that that improves on it.
And I don't know if his twist is much better
than the one in the original.

Speaker 4 (01:53:59):
You know, so uh, you know, the stuff, I don't
know like like Fistful Dollars is still a good movie.
But should know me how it's been sued by Chris Sawa. Yeah,
he should have and he was right, you know, so
so I don't know, I just I know a lot

(01:54:20):
of people will kind of like, uh, you know, brush off.

Speaker 3 (01:54:24):
Oh he steals from everything, and and he does. And
that doesn't make his stuff like artistically counterfeit, but you know, uh, yeah,
you should acknowledge it, buddy, at least you know.

Speaker 2 (01:54:37):
And it's it is interesting. It is interesting because he does,
like I mean, before Once upon a Time in Hollywood
came out at the New Beverly, he programmed like a
month of you know, movies that influenced uh, Once upon
a Time in Hollywood, and he and and then he
does things like uh and that Once upon a Time

(01:55:00):
in Hollywood. I if there is a movie that it
is stealing from quite a bit, like I will say,
I haven't seen it. But with other movies like kill Bill,
he has never referenced The Bride War Black as a movie,

(01:55:22):
which is a movie which is a revenge movie where
a like a woman has a list I think of
five people that she's trying to kill and marks them
off on the list each time. Now, I don't think
that that idea is so unique that he would have
had to have seen it to have that in a movie.

(01:55:43):
But since you know, he's seen so many movies and
he's familiar with the French New Wave and France Bau Truffau,
I would think he has seen The Bride War Black.
I do think it's a little interesting when he will
and when he won't reference something.

Speaker 3 (01:56:03):
Yeah, I I believe he claims that he's never seen
the Bride War Black, which which is possible. But I
think it's I think i'like, I think it's a little
a little absurd. But but like in terms of like
the killed not only the Bride War, like, yeah, it's

(01:56:24):
just it. It feels like he got close enough to
referencing it because he's like all the TV shows would
do this kind of episode that if somebody ever did
call him out, he said, I kept talking about those
types of episodes, like you know. So, I don't know.
I think sometimes he'll similar to like you know, Django unchained.

(01:56:47):
He he really front loaded the idea that this is his.
He calls it Django, this is his Corpucci want you know,
movie and everything and and uh and then he references
like Mandingo and stuff, but like there's uh like skin Game,
Goodbye Uncle Tom, the sequel to Mandingo Drum like these

(01:57:12):
are clearly what he's stealing from, you know what I mean.
Django Unchain does not feel like a Corbucci Western, you know.

Speaker 4 (01:57:21):
It doesn't feel of a piece with the Django ripoffs either,
you know. So, I don't know, in a.

Speaker 3 (01:57:29):
Way, I feel that there's like a little bit of
sleight of hand where he's kind of trying to direct you.

Speaker 4 (01:57:35):
In in in this way, you know.

Speaker 3 (01:57:38):
And and so yeah, with with the hateful aid, he
he you know, he'll mention like the thing and the
great Silence. I don't know if you mentioned Cutthroats nine,
but that feels a little bit of an influence and
Daily Outlaw and all that stuff. But but but.

Speaker 4 (01:57:59):
Yeah, I mean it's just every beat for beat.

Speaker 3 (01:58:02):
It's it's a it's a remake of the of the
Rebel episode. But uh yeah, that's it's there's there's things
about it.

Speaker 4 (01:58:12):
I think that it's his best looking movie. Uh it
looks amazing, Yeah, it's yeah, it's it's gorgeously shot. The
set that they have is you know, it's it's it's
very detailed. It's a great set, and uh and there
are fun there are fun things here and there. But

(01:58:33):
like you said, all that all everyone everyone repeating things
that they say over and over and over again, and
it feels like it's when his dialogue is bad.

Speaker 3 (01:58:46):
That's when everyone feels like they're being quirky and kind
of cute and they all kind of sound like they're
talking like him. Yeah, and it's, uh yeah, it doesn't
it doesn't work great. And and he doesn't write the
best Western dialogue anyway, but uh, you know, yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:59:08):
And and and like you said, there could have had
had it open with that, with the slaughter there, there
may be there probably there maybe would have been more
tension there, just knowing. You know, it's like the Hitchcock thing.

Speaker 3 (01:59:23):
Right, if it's like a bomb going off, a bomb
going off under table, that's shock. A bomb not going
off under a table, that's suspense or something like that, right, right.
Uh so yeah, that's that you you you wonder if

(01:59:44):
you know, when you when you think about like the
jumping around narrative of resp woir dogs, like the jumping
around is you you know, it's uh it's it's it's
a lot more complex, but it has a far better
storytelling purpose. Yeah, and then and then in this one,

(02:00:06):
and it's just it's full of just a lot of
annoying things. When he tries to set up one when
he uh, when he when he just suddenly does a
voice over. He'll do that in his movies like Anglorious Bastard.
Suddenly we had like uh, Samuel L. Jackson talking about
how flammable film prints were right right, and then once

(02:00:29):
upon a time in Hollywood had Kurt Russell talking about
his DUI's Rick Dall c u I s and stuff
and and those ones work. But when it's Tarantino's voice,
it's like get out of here, dude, you know, being
you know, and then he's you know, uh it's yeah,
it's just uh, yeah, we don't need you here, buddy.

Speaker 4 (02:00:52):
And then just also, uh, the way.

Speaker 3 (02:00:55):
He tries to set up the habrid ashery like this
kind of unity and you have what's her name, Zoe
or something, the the death Proof stut lady.

Speaker 4 (02:01:08):
Yes, jumping around it just uh and then like I'm
gonna learn French and say how do I have a
big ass? And stuff. It just feels like he's really
he's trying to be cute.

Speaker 3 (02:01:18):
He's trying to push you into liking these characters as
quickly as he can so that when they get slaughtered,
you're it's supposed it's supposed to be like shocking and sad,
and it's just like you just made them annoying, honestly. Yeah,
but uh, well, also with the Lincoln letter, and this
is a small complaint, but if you've ever read the

(02:01:41):
original draft, it doesn't it doesn't turn out that it
was that it was a forgery.

Speaker 2 (02:01:48):
It's okay.

Speaker 3 (02:01:49):
And so then when he rewrote it, and I do
like the scene where uh that John Ruth, the hangman,
is so hurt at being lied to what doesn't make sense,
and it feels like it's like a like a vestigial
tale from the other draft is when Daisy damergu spits

(02:02:10):
on it and Samuel Jackson flips out and punches her
so that her that her and John Ruth fly out
of the stage coach out into the snow right right,
And it's like, okay, he has to keep up the
appearances that it's real so that he has to flip out,

(02:02:30):
but he just had he was just had to debate
for had a big debate, uh, and finally convinced John
Ruth to let him in the stage coach. So he's
gonna in the moment, go oh, I got to keep
up appearances. Let me punch her out so that they'll
both fly out. How do you know he's not gonna

(02:02:50):
be pissed and be like you're fucking gone, you're or sorry,
you're heffen out of my All the people that want
to hear about the hate polite. They don't want here
swearing though, but for sure, but uh.

Speaker 2 (02:03:04):
He could just you're you're, you're, you're unchained. You you
can swear as much as you want, Okay.

Speaker 4 (02:03:10):
Uh, So it feels more like he should have just
been like about to attacker or something. It just doesn't.
It feels like something left over from when the letter
was supposed to be real, because why would you why
would you in in order to trick this guy?

Speaker 3 (02:03:29):
Uh, and to him believing it do something that would
make him so mad that he would potentially leave you
out to die.

Speaker 4 (02:03:35):
You know. It just feels like, uh, it feels like
he rewrote one part but not the other. I don't know.
Maybe that's a small complaint.

Speaker 3 (02:03:43):
But if you just argued with the guy to let
you in so you don't die, and he's very hesitant
about doing it, don't don't basically essentially throw him out
of his own stagecoach, you know, in order to keep
up your your story.

Speaker 4 (02:03:58):
That's my opinion.

Speaker 3 (02:03:59):
But it's a yeah, it's a movie that, like, like
you said, it's also very mean and like, uh, it
feels a lot meaner than his uh, some of his
more recent work, which is like more you know, like
Django Unchain has very violent scenes in it, but it's
very much a crowd pleaser and this one's a downer.

(02:04:22):
But the violence is also cartoony that it's like you
it's like uh uh, you know, it's like it just
it feels it feels, it feels flippant. So then when
it goes dark, it just is like, why are you

(02:04:42):
going this dark?

Speaker 4 (02:04:43):
You haven't earned it? In my opinion, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (02:04:47):
I I think like.

Speaker 3 (02:04:50):
Restvoir Dogs, which tells a very similar story of you know,
almost one location, who's the rat? Uh, you know, and
essentially everyone dies at the end. Uh, But that is
that is a movie that still feels like not that

(02:05:11):
I want to the violence still feels like it has
weight to it. Where is this they're kind of yeah,
blow heads and.

Speaker 4 (02:05:22):
Yeah yeah. So I.

Speaker 2 (02:05:25):
Don't know.

Speaker 3 (02:05:26):
I just I just feel that it's, uh, it's not unwatchable,
even though it's so long. It's like, you know, it's
it's full of a lot of great things and a
lot of great moments, and it has some of Tarantino's
best work in terms of, you know, the way it's
shot and the way it the way.

Speaker 4 (02:05:47):
It looks and all that.

Speaker 3 (02:05:50):
But uh, yeah, it just it just feels it feels
muddled and half baked, and it feels like him indulging
his worst impulses, kind of like I think with like
the success of like kill Bill, and other people might disagree,
but then it feels like he's like, I'm going to

(02:06:12):
keep going in that direction.

Speaker 4 (02:06:14):
And then you get death Proof and people might love
that one.

Speaker 2 (02:06:18):
But it's but I do not like death Proof. I say, Okay,
So when I was very excited for the Grindhouse experience,
I and Grindhouse came out when I was I lived
in LA for a few years, and it came out
when I was there, and I saw it at the

(02:06:39):
Man's Chinese Theater and I was so I was so pumped,
and I was just I could not believe how let
down I was by Death Proof, and I convinced I
kind of convinced myself, like, hey, maybe I just need

(02:06:59):
to see it as not the second half of this,
you know, double bill with the Rodriguez movie that I
I can't what do you know the name of Robert
Rodriguez is part of Grindhouse.

Speaker 4 (02:07:13):
Yeah, drawing a blank Planet Terror? Planet Terror, Yeah, that's
like a it's like a It's like a bad version
of of Nightmare City City, Yes, the Lindsay movie. I
love Nightmare City Yeah, so yeah, it's there. Yeah, And.

Speaker 2 (02:07:33):
I think Planet Terror at least it was like it
had a task pace, it had a little more entertainment value.
And then Death Proof. I was so annoyed by the
dialogue and then there's that spectacular car crash in like
this in the middle of it, and I was just like, oh,
I hopefully this gets awesome. And then it introduces a

(02:07:56):
bunch of new characters who are equally as annoying as
the characters in the first half. And that's a movie
I've heard people defend and I've just never been able
to get on board with it. I think Kurt Russell
is cool in it, but yeah, death Proof is pretty challenging. Yeah,

(02:08:16):
and yeah, I agree with you on the Tarantino that
little scene where he has voiceover the kind of I
think that type of voiceover is like a literary narrator
when it's like a when somebody when it's someone who's
not in the movie. And I actually can't think of
a great example of that. Maybe the coward assassinations, the

(02:08:39):
assassination of Jesse James. I think that it kind of
works there. But when Tarantino does it, it is annoying.
And when he sets up that you know that somebody
poisoned the coffee, that him saying that didn't make me
perk up and be like, oh my gosh, who was

(02:09:00):
the one who did it? I can't wait to find
out who this is. It just it just isn't very effective.

Speaker 4 (02:09:07):
Yeah, it's It's one of those things that you feel that, like,
had the movie been working, you'd be like, oh, that's
so audacious, what a move, you know, because like I said,
he does he'll throw it in to a movie that
has no other voiceover, and that's you know, generally considered

(02:09:30):
a no no but yeah, well, but it usually works, but.

Speaker 3 (02:09:35):
It doesn't work here. One because it's not information I
think we need. And also because it's him doing it,
it feels almost more.

Speaker 2 (02:09:44):
It feels like more like William Castle, like something William
Castle would do in the fifties, especially since it's like
the director making it.

Speaker 4 (02:09:52):
Yeah, yeah, yeah exactly. So yeah, it's just yeah, that's
not I don't I don't feel that's a don't feel
that's a great choice. And also, uh, since I already
had read the I had already read the script and
i've and I usually usually his script's leak and I
usually read them before and it doesn't usually ruin the

(02:10:13):
movie for me. So maybe if I hadn't read the script,
my first viewing I would have been, you know, it
would have worked differently for me. But uh, oh what
I was gonna say, But about script, Now that I
I lost my train of.

Speaker 2 (02:10:33):
Thought, Oh that's okay. Uh, Now one thing or do
you do you want to try to think of this thought?
Or do you want me to bring up something?

Speaker 4 (02:10:43):
If it's good, it will come to me. Okay.

Speaker 2 (02:10:47):
Now, I do think one thing that we should say is, well,
this is influenced. Well, you you at least mentioned Cutthroats
nine and The Great Silence and Day of Outlaw. Did
you mention any other kind of obvious influences on this,
I can't recall. I think that was it.

Speaker 4 (02:11:09):
Yeah, I think yeah, so there, And.

Speaker 2 (02:11:12):
I do think there are probably other influences as well,
like have you seen Rawhide, the Henry Hathaway movie with
Tyrone Power. Yes, I think that that probably should be
mentioned as something that could be an influence. And then
there's also an episode of the raw Hide TV series
that the first episode where there is a there's like

(02:11:35):
a tumbleweed like wagon you're carrying your transporting prisoners, and
one of the prisoners is a woman and she is
apparently the most dangerous of this group who's being transported.
And there's even a moment where I guess it's a

(02:11:55):
marshal or maybe like a deputy marshal. Now he doesn't
hit her like the way John Ruth hits Daisy in
The Hateful Eight, but there is a moment where he
kind of like open hand slaps her and like takes
her down to the ground at one point, and Clint
Eastwood's character kind of confronts this guy and the guy

(02:12:18):
says that I can't remember exactly the dialogue, but he
says something to the effect that she's like basically not
a woman, so you can like treat her like this,
which I felt like is very in line with how
John Ruth treats Daisy. And I will say one thing.
And by the way, I hate when I say I
will say, I could just say something instead of saying

(02:12:42):
that I'm gonna say it. But it's just at this point,
it's just a habit that I can't break. Uhh, Where
was I going with this? Okay?

Speaker 4 (02:12:52):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (02:12:52):
Yes, so John Ruth the violence towards Daisy. When I
saw it in a theater, I think because it's a
Tarantino movie, people think it's okay to laugh at any violence. Yeah,
and the audience was like really laughing when he first

(02:13:14):
hit her with does he hit her with a pistol
or does he just punch her at the beginning? I
on the on the stage coach. I can't remember. When
she looks up and she's like bleeding from her nose,
I think.

Speaker 4 (02:13:29):
I think he pissed.

Speaker 3 (02:13:30):
I think he like hits her with the barrel of
his pistol once maybe because doesn't Yeah, because.

Speaker 4 (02:13:38):
I can't.

Speaker 2 (02:13:38):
I don't remember, but but I know like when I
saw it with an audience, they would laugh, and that
always struck me as being so weird. But I do
think Tarantino has maybe trained his audience to potentially laugh
at violence. But do you remember, like seeing it with
an audience and people laugh when he when John Ruth
was like, uh, beating up Daisy, I.

Speaker 3 (02:14:01):
Think some people did it's and I remember it being
uh controversial at the time. Yeah, I used to be
friends with the guy who was like that ahead of
his edit editorial department, Tarantino's before Django unchained. He was
like he was below Sally Minke And I remember he

(02:14:27):
when he had seen he was not a fan, and
he was like, yeah, there was a bunch of just
like violence. He was like very uncomfortable about the violence
towards her, and I know a lot of reviewers were too.

Speaker 4 (02:14:42):
And it's.

Speaker 3 (02:14:46):
It's, you know, it's hard to It's hard because I
feel that he wants it to be shocking, but I
think he wants it to be funny too. I think
he wants you to be like WHOA, because I don't
know if you have a take on this. It's because

(02:15:06):
but he makes her so unsympathetic, and I think it's
his way of being like, yeah, like in my movies,
the women are just as tough and evil as the men,
and they get as much punishment.

Speaker 4 (02:15:18):
Of course she gets the most.

Speaker 2 (02:15:20):
Yeah, but I don't know what he's.

Speaker 3 (02:15:21):
Trying to say with that, because he's because she's so
she's so unsympathetic that you're like, well, that's shocking.

Speaker 4 (02:15:31):
To do that to a woman.

Speaker 3 (02:15:32):
But at the same time, here, yeah, when she's being hanged,
you're not like, uh, like no, please don't do it.
You're like, yeah, she's you know, so I don't I
don't know if he's trying to say anything outside of
just like, yeah, the women are just like what is like,
what is your take on that?

Speaker 4 (02:15:52):
Because I do feel that it's supposed to be disturbed.

Speaker 3 (02:15:55):
I honestly feel that he wants it to be disturbing
to one portion of other audience, and I think he
wants another portion of the audience to laugh, or he
wants both reactions, you know, from the same people.

Speaker 4 (02:16:08):
I don't, you know what I mean, I don't I
don't know what he's getting with that. What do you like,
what do you think about that like, you know, I I.

Speaker 2 (02:16:17):
Think he is intending for it to be disturbing, like
you're saying, I don't. I don't think he's trying to
make it funny. Now if if he's making a statement
about it, I I think that's tough, because I I
I don't really know what it would be. I know

(02:16:38):
that he thinks that all of these characters are unlikable
and awful people and so, but he doesn't I don't
know you see that. I think that is actually one
of the problems with the movie is that there I
don't think he well, it's tough. I don't think he's

(02:17:00):
directing you necessarily to feel like it is making a statement.
I don't know if that makes sense.

Speaker 4 (02:17:10):
Yeah, well, I just I feel like some of the
times when Kurt Russell, like, well, like elbow her or something,
like the way it's timed or something, I think that
it's I mean, comedy is often shocking, and shocking scenes
often make you laugh. I think he wants both of

(02:17:32):
those things, because I just feel that a lot of
it's timed that way, and it's always like her doing
something and then you know this, you know reaction that
you know you're gonna get and it's and it's like,
what are we Like the end scene is them like
you know, we got to do this for John Ruth

(02:17:54):
uh and and it's like what do you I don't
you know what I mean, like a, uh yeah, what
are you saying here? I don't know.

Speaker 3 (02:18:05):
That was the thing I was gonna mention, which maybe
isn't even that grave of thought. But I remember when
it was announced that Channing Tatum was going to be
in this movie, and having uh read the script, I
was I thought, and I was hoping that it was
going to be uh General Smither's son in the flashback.

(02:18:25):
I thought that was it was gonna be is like
crazy cameo, which I thought would have been a hilarious
way to use him because he doesn't really work as
her brother.

Speaker 4 (02:18:34):
It's like, yeah, who raised these two people? But but
h yeah, yeah, it's it's it's like a it's it's
a weird question. And I don't uh yeah, I just
I don't. You don't necessarily go into Tarantino movies the

(02:18:55):
like what's he trying to say? But he seem he's
he seems to be wanting to say something.

Speaker 3 (02:19:04):
He's you know what I mean about race, about the
Civil War, about uh, you know, all these different groups
and viewpoints and things like he's throwing it out there.

Speaker 4 (02:19:14):
And he's also has like you know, uh tim Roth
give his.

Speaker 3 (02:19:18):
Speech about what is the difference between justice and frontier justice?

Speaker 2 (02:19:22):
Oh yeah, like dispassionate justice heah calls it, or passionate
versus dispassionate justice something like that.

Speaker 4 (02:19:30):
Yeah. And I don't I I just don't. I just
don't know what we're supposed to we're supposed to get
out of it. I don't know that get out of
the experience.

Speaker 2 (02:19:44):
And that speech comes. It's like the most inorganic thing.
It just all of a sudden cuts to him and
he's like giving them this strange lesson on justice. It
it comes from out of nowhere.

Speaker 4 (02:20:00):
Yeah, it feels like something that that one.

Speaker 3 (02:20:05):
It feels like he's like, I get to write a Western,
I'll talk about the difference between justice and frontier justice,
something that literally every Western has ever ever made, no way, right,
So it's like this is not an interesting, mod like
speech of any insight or interest, Like you're not breaking

(02:20:27):
any ground with this, so you're just it it. Definitely
you're like, oh, he's Sarantino, he's got to have the
character write a speech.

Speaker 4 (02:20:34):
You know. It's almost feels like that.

Speaker 3 (02:20:40):
When he is making a movie like a Western with
Django and Chain, because it's uh takes place, it has
a it has they have a mission. It's like kind
of like an an action adventure film in a way.
Uh it you can get you can get away with

(02:21:03):
these characters that are more you know, that's enough as
much as you need. But in this one, they're all
these characters that just have to sit around and talk.
But what can he have them talk about?

Speaker 4 (02:21:13):
Because his characters usually relate their issues with pop culture,
they don't have a pop culture outside of mentioning Lily Langtree,
you know, so you're left with that. So you're left with,
like I said, this speech and this speech.

Speaker 3 (02:21:28):
But then they're also speeches bade maade by characters who
aren't even who they say they are. So you're not
getting any You're you're spend you're spend all spending all
the time with characters that you can't get to know
because half of them are not who they say they are,
you know.

Speaker 2 (02:21:46):
Yeah, and they're kind of like the whole group, they're
kind of a group of villains like you really, even
though I think you kind of naturally probably root for
maybe Sam Jackson or Kurt Russell just because they have
been you know, heroes, but maybe maybe not even heroes,

(02:22:06):
but they've been people that audiences have cheered for for
a long time. But nobody's a good person here, so
you don't really have a rooting not having a rooting
interest in anyone. Even though Warren kind of seems like
he could be a good guy, he ends up, you know,
working with this racist white guy to hang a woman
at the end. So yeah, it just is uh, yeah,

(02:22:29):
it's very weird. Like Jango gives you someone to root for,
and the other trying like you said, he has a mission.
He's trying to save his wife from this plantation. But yeah,
there's hateful ages doesn't really have much of a point.

Speaker 4 (02:22:47):
Yeah, well, and that's that's the other The problem with
the with Samuel L.

Speaker 3 (02:22:52):
Jackson's character is that he, like you said, you're just
going to uh, you're gonna gravitate towards him. It's Samuel L. Jackson,
and he's the most entertaining character and you're the and.

Speaker 4 (02:23:09):
Really the only thing that makes you go, oh, maybe
he's not the best person.

Speaker 3 (02:23:18):
Is the exposition, the backstory exposition where he burned the
whole campet, including not only uh confederates but also some
of his own his fellow soldiers to in order to escape,
and of course he goes uh uh General smithers into

(02:23:40):
uh into a gunfight by what a terrible thing he
did to his son uh.

Speaker 4 (02:23:46):
And then of course that he lies about but you,
but none of that is like to me that none
of that makes him into like you. Still he still.

Speaker 3 (02:23:58):
Registers as the as the hero because you haven't seen
him do it. You only have a character saying he
did this thing, and it's like, well, that wasn't cool.
But he's just you know, it's self preservation, and you're
it's like you're you're also supposed to get off on
how hateful he is. In the scene when he's goating

(02:24:19):
General smithers into pulling a gun on him so he
can murder him. You're it's like, you know, like, okay,
this is not this is you know, not a nice
thing that he's doing. But especially in the world of
a Tarantino movie, you go, yeah, I could see Django
doing that to a guy, you know, so uh, and
that's a.

Speaker 4 (02:24:40):
Movie where you're supposed to be cheering him along the
whole way. So it's like, uh, yeah, you're you you
don't you are You're He doesn't That stuff doesn't.

Speaker 3 (02:24:55):
I think add complexity to the Samuel L. Jackson character.
He just seems like a uh, the Samuel L. Jackson
badass character, you know.

Speaker 4 (02:25:05):
So uh it's uh yeah, I don't know, I don't
and I don't know what he's trying to say.

Speaker 2 (02:25:12):
Say that that could that could be another thing, is
Tarantino kind of using his uh stable of actors that
that it could be working against him with this movie.
If he had cast people I don't want to say unknowns,
but if he had cast people that he maybe hadn't

(02:25:34):
worked with before, I think that it would be easier
to see Sam Jackson's character as being more of a
villain or someone more evil. But since he does like
to work with the same people over and over again,
you know, whatever that actor is, you're going to take
with you into the movie, and so it's hard to

(02:25:55):
see since Sam Jackson is kind of so fun and
uh and plays everything so big, even if he were
playing a villain, it would be in a cartoonish way.
It wouldn't be Yeah, it just it would make them
It would give the movie a different, like a very
different feel if there was actually some characters who were

(02:26:18):
truly you felt were more sinister, like like like DiCaprio
and and Django unchained. He feels like a true villain,
whereas none of these people really feel well, maybe John
Ruth might actually feel as much of a villain as anybody.
He's definitely one of the more violent characters.

Speaker 3 (02:26:39):
Yeah, yeah, well it's uh, it's just it's like to
go back to like to go back to reservoir dogs
that I mean, I think part of that is part
of it. What I'm saying is because it was a
lower budget movie and everything, but it's still Abus has

(02:27:00):
his his territory of style and and the violence is
a bit over the top and everything. But there's something
about it even though you know, if you really thought
about it for for too long, the movie probably doesn't
make a whole lot of sense, but there's something about
it that feels tangible and real and believable, and that

(02:27:21):
they actors.

Speaker 4 (02:27:23):
In it, uh play it that way too.

Speaker 3 (02:27:26):
No one's no one's like really hamming it up between
you know, Harvey Kai tell tim Roth like they're they're
they can get big and everything in their roles, but
they're not. They feel they feel believable, and they feel
like they have backstories and everything. And everyone here, like

(02:27:47):
I said, with the acting is so dialed up that
you don't you don't, Yeah, you don't, you don't.

Speaker 4 (02:27:55):
I don't believe any character in this movie.

Speaker 3 (02:27:58):
And then, like you're saying saying, when tim Roth gives
his speech, it's like he seems so delighted to be
giving this speech.

Speaker 4 (02:28:05):
It's like, what is this?

Speaker 3 (02:28:06):
He almost feels like he's doing it because I think
it was originally written for Christoph Waltz. It almost feels, okay,
a riff on that. Yeah, Michael Manson looks like he's
about to fall asleep. I like Michael Manson when he's
used well, but you're like between everyone repeating everything and shouting,
and then he just takes forever to get any line out,

(02:28:30):
and you're just like, uh, it's like, does everything in
this movie have to take forever?

Speaker 4 (02:28:35):
And yeah, so.

Speaker 2 (02:28:38):
Dogs. One thing that Reservoir Dogs, well, a couple of
things Reservoir Dogs really has going for it that this
doesn't is well, well, the characters are obviously a little
more human and the and there is it is about
kind of honor among low lives, like with Harvey Kaitel,

(02:29:01):
you know, taking care of Tim Ross's character after he
got shot. And there is a thing about being like
professional versus being an amateur. And Harvick I tell you know,
he he tells Tim roths to his first name, and
and and and he tells I can't remember who he's

(02:29:22):
talking to, maybe it's Steve Bushimi's character, but he he
says something like you this man was dying in my arms.
What am I supposed to do, like like not give
him my first name? And so there is something there's
a little relatability there. There's nothing to relate.

Speaker 4 (02:29:39):
To in this Yeah, yeah, well yeah, I mean he's yeah,
and that it's like he was, I think transferring the
quote unquote heroic bloodshed of the Hong Kong action films
like Citi on Fire and like the John Wu films
of like honor, you know, and and and so he

(02:30:00):
actually has a theme that he's like that he's that
he's working with and developing and yeah, like you can
you latch on to to those characters and yeah, he doesn't.
He doesn't.

Speaker 3 (02:30:16):
The themes here just seem like kind of vague, Yeah,
racial themes. But the other thing is too like that movie,
the violence is for the most part disturbing and weird
and maybe, ah, you could take it. Some of it
might be fun or exciting or but for the most

(02:30:37):
part it's disturbing. And then pulp fix and it gets
a little more crazy visceral. He pulls it way back
on Jackie Brown and everything. And then with the kill
Bill movies, it's like it feels like that's where the
violence of his movie has becomes just huge.

Speaker 4 (02:30:52):
Guys, there's the blood wild movie movie violence, and.

Speaker 3 (02:31:00):
And when he's doing his like Django and Chained uh
he he Basically he approaches the violence in two different ways.
When it's when it's like violence against slaves, it's very disturbing,
the guy being ripped apart by dogs, the other guy beaten,
the other guy with the death with a hammer. That

(02:31:22):
stuff is disturbing violence. And then it's uh and then
it's very you know, fun, exciting, super bloody, visceral, funny violence.
When it's revenge, you know, yeah, and uh, and he
seems to have he's he seems to have a handle

(02:31:42):
and when violence should be disturbing, when it should be
funny and wild and entertaining. And in this one, it's
like it almost feels like he's trying to combine the
two and it's and then so for me, it's the
violence isn't exciting and fun, but it's also really not
that disturbing either.

Speaker 4 (02:32:00):
You're just like, okay, you know.

Speaker 3 (02:32:04):
So yeah, just even just even his approach to violence
and and doing this movie that is so similar to
his first film, Uh, I think just to shows the
deficiencies and also shows that like he's you know, he
he like it feels like he gets self indulgent. Uh
Like with Death Proof it doesn't do as well, then

(02:32:25):
he has to kind of, uh you know, rethink going
in that direction. And I think that's what happened with
this one, which didn't do as well as he'd hoped
h And then with like then with Once Upon a
Time in Hollywood, which I think is a great movie
and one of his best, and I think in many ways.

Speaker 4 (02:32:43):
Is different from this. Oh, absolutely as as possible. So
uh yeah, but.

Speaker 3 (02:32:53):
Yeah, I don't know, I think he just maybe climbed
too far up his ass but I also wanted more
of you talking about stuff you like. I don't want
to make it completely negative on this one.

Speaker 2 (02:33:04):
If I know you like the movie, so yeah, I do.

Speaker 4 (02:33:08):
Yeah, I do like it.

Speaker 2 (02:33:09):
I like I said, it did go down. I think, yeah,
there's a lot. I mean, a lot of it just
comes from finding like Kurt Russell and Sam Jackson to
be entertaining. And I do agree with you that Kurt
Russell does have some John Wayne kind of things, like
the way he says, like, well, I'll be a dog

(02:33:30):
and a manger. You know, It's definitely kind of like
a John Wayne kind of thing. Yeah, I think it
just has very kind of simple basic entertainment value that
I get from out of Tarantino movies as far as
like he he has a tone and and I mean

(02:33:54):
to a lesser extent in this movie, but he has
a tone and kind of a voice that I just enjoy.
But here it is not to the extent, it is
not as much as his greatest stuff. It is funny.
I don't know, because at one point when I watched it,

(02:34:15):
this was like a top three Tarantino movie for me,
and I'm trying to think of what made it that
and I really am not coming up with what it
was exactly because it definitely has gone down now. I
wonder if I would enjoy it more if I was
able to sit and watch it in one sitting. Splitting

(02:34:37):
it up over three days was definitely kind of a drag. Yeah, yeah,
I feel like I don't have even though I would
say overall I enjoy the movie, I was definitely seeing
the flaws way more. And I'm also I was also

(02:35:01):
watching this movie. Most of the stuff I watch is
a movie or a show that I'm going to be
talking about for the podcast, and it's gonna be something
usually like before nineteen seventy, and it's gonna be shorter
and much tighter, and so watching something that feels this

(02:35:23):
drawn out it was a maybe maybe I've become more
conditioned to ninety minutes and so something three hours was
a little more challenging right now. But Yeah, oddly enough,
I have less. I have way more negative things to
say about it, definitely than I originally would have when

(02:35:46):
especially that one time I saw with my grandfather when
we both just loved it and I felt like I
was on the movie's wavelength at that point. Yeah, definitely
not on it as much currently.

Speaker 3 (02:36:01):
Yeah, when I this last time that I watched it,
I it was probably I probably enjoyed it more than
previous times. And like I said, I don't hate it,
and I think I think it's I think it's watchable,
like what you said, Like when I was watching it

(02:36:22):
in the moment, something might annoy me or something, but
I'm like, this is fine. I'm you know, like it's
still the Western. It looks great. There are still entertaining
things here and there, you know, every few minutes. So
it's not like when I came to rewatching it and
I was like, oh guy, this one.

Speaker 4 (02:36:41):
I uh.

Speaker 3 (02:36:46):
But I maybe because I've been so down on it
that watching it this time around, I was like, Okay,
it's not that bad. But all the problems that I've
had with it in the pastor are are still there.
So so yeah, it's uh, it's it's it's a mixed
bag and.

Speaker 4 (02:37:05):
And uh and I think it is a lot of
his it's it's a lot of his worst uh uh,
you know, he his worst, his worst.

Speaker 3 (02:37:17):
Indulgences I think are on display. And I don't think
it really I don't think it really builds on or
you know, subverts or has an interesting take on the
episode that it basically stole from right though, Uh, but

(02:37:40):
it's a Western, it looks good, it's it's it's fine.
I don't want to I don't want to totally denegrate it,
but yeah, I do.

Speaker 2 (02:37:49):
Think one thing. I do think that Tarantino a lot
of the times when he's at his worst is when
he has a movie where characters are talking about the
plot more. And I think that, like you said, and

(02:38:09):
a lot of his other movies they take place during well,
and it's a little bit of an undefined era when
some of his movies take place, but they are able
to reference pop culture, and that's you know, and that's
when and they reference it a lot when they're talking
to each other. But with this, they're only talking about
the plot. They're only telling you characters backstories. There's nothing

(02:38:34):
that is just fun to listen to and so and
when he's and so, he's not able to inject humor
in it because a lot of his humor is like
for better or for worse, reference based.

Speaker 3 (02:38:51):
Yeah, and it feels like to make up for it,
Like you said, it's a lot of repeating this, repeating
that Sometimes it can work like everyone having to nail
the door, everyone yelling.

Speaker 4 (02:39:06):
Yeah do two boards or whatever.

Speaker 3 (02:39:08):
I get a little use, but that stuff generally works.
And it also works because then you see, oh, this
is why the door's broken, you know.

Speaker 4 (02:39:17):
Uh but yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:39:20):
Everyone else, like you were saying, it feels like that's
the way he's trying to uh inject the humor or
like the you know, uh, his dialogue flourishes and uh
and it's not as much of a problem when with
Djangle Unchain because like I said, that is that is

(02:39:41):
uh you know, the it's the it's it's continuously it's
continuously moving.

Speaker 4 (02:39:49):
Uh. You know, it jumps from scene to scene. There's
a lot of action and other things.

Speaker 3 (02:39:54):
There are still speeches and stuff, but it's not something
where everyone's in a room and every all it can
and be a speeches and then people shoot each other
every once in a while.

Speaker 4 (02:40:03):
You know.

Speaker 2 (02:40:04):
One thing I had a question about in this movie
is now the cost the costuming. Do you feel like
it's like cartoonish or too stylized maybe or do you
think it's actually more period accurate?

Speaker 4 (02:40:22):
Uh? Oh, so Samuel L.

Speaker 3 (02:40:28):
Jackson's outfit is is uh pretty period period accurate and Okay,
I like, uh, I like Kurt Russell's for hat and
fur coat and stuff. It's the rest of the costumes
are not, I would say, not period accurate. Michael Madsen's
costume in particular. I don't know people care about this

(02:40:50):
stuff and stuff, but Michael Madsen's.

Speaker 4 (02:40:52):
Costume, especially when he's dressed like the cowboy. Uh, He's
like he has these like cuffs that look like they're
made out of like pleather, like fake leather.

Speaker 3 (02:41:05):
And then he's got like a black motorcycle vest which
are caught. You see those in a lot of wet
old westerns. But yeah, and then then he has this
a snap button shirt. They didn't have snap buttons at
the time. That's like from the nineteen twenties. So there's
stuff there. There's some cool costume choices, but then there's

(02:41:27):
just like, yeah, some pretty rough choice, like and Jenko
Chain has this problem too, Like.

Speaker 4 (02:41:36):
Michael parks In that has the worst hat I've ever seen.
It has a plastic string adjuster on his hat. He's
one guy's wearing a T shirt and so it's like
and people are like, well, he's not doing a period piece.
He's doing it like a spaghetti western, and I'm like,
this wouldn't this wouldn't be appropriate for a period piece
in nineteen sixty like this, you know, like it doesn't

(02:41:56):
even it doesn't look like spaghetti western costumes either. I
don't know what it is. So yeah, no, I would say,
you know, the costumes are not great.

Speaker 2 (02:42:10):
Yeah, I think that they're a little at least I
did find to be a little goofy.

Speaker 3 (02:42:17):
Yeah, like uh yeah, Samuel, I know, Samuel Jackson, he
was supposed to be like a bit of uh like Sartana,
Oh that makes sense, yeah, and and and his works.
Like I said that that one is I don't know
if every button and everything is is absolutely correct, but

(02:42:39):
it's generally that that looks that looks correct to me.
But uh yeah, the rest of them maybe not so much.
But Michael Mattson in particular, just as one of the
worst costumes I have ever seen in a Western. But
but authenticity, you know, it is not is not the

(02:43:00):
height of, you know, what a Western should necessarily be.

Speaker 4 (02:43:04):
I like some things authentic, but.

Speaker 3 (02:43:06):
And Tarantino especially, I don't I don't think he's necessarily
going for that. How do you know that you're they
didn't have snap buttons. I'd like to think he didn't
make that choice, but but yeah, he's not this Endjango
and Chain not exactly not the best historical representations.

Speaker 4 (02:43:27):
Of the nineteenth century.

Speaker 2 (02:43:29):
Definitely all right, well, uh yeah, do you have anything
else to add? I feel like I've said everything that
I've wanted to say about The Hateful Eight.

Speaker 4 (02:43:41):
Yeah, yeah, I think I think we're good. Uh.

Speaker 3 (02:43:47):
I hopefully this has been interesting that the episodes outside
of I think line Camp, I don't think we're like
super amazing, So hopefully in comparison to these movies that
kind of expanded on them that that's an interesting thing.
And if you've and like, if you like Will Penny.

Speaker 4 (02:44:08):
Or any or a Hounting Party or or Hateful Eight,
I'd say check out the these shorter episodes, just these
that they're.

Speaker 3 (02:44:15):
Based on, just to see, uh, you know what, what
what they change. And in the case of in the
case of the Hunting Party and Will Penny, it's essentially
being made by the same people who made the the
original episodes, at least the writers of The Haunting Party.

(02:44:36):
So that's an interesting It's interesting to see what some
people do with their own ideas that they've had before,
how they build on them, and how you know, Tarantino
builds on someone else's ideas.

Speaker 4 (02:44:48):
Uh but.

Speaker 3 (02:44:51):
Uh yeah, but out of these, you know, Will Penny.
If you haven't seen it and you like Westerns, definitely
watch it. It's outside of it's that the big Law
of the Villains.

Speaker 4 (02:45:01):
Uh. I think it's you know, I think it's a
I think it's a great Western. It ranks up there
as one of the best.

Speaker 2 (02:45:09):
Definitely, All right, cool, David. Where can people find you
on social media? You're You're pretty much exclusively on Twitter.

Speaker 3 (02:45:18):
Right, I'm on Twitter and I'm on uh Blue Sky, Okay,
so if you're not on Twitter, Uh, you could find
me there.

Speaker 4 (02:45:30):
I post. I basically post the same stuff between both places. Uh,
and then.

Speaker 3 (02:45:39):
And then and and on both of those, I'm under
David Lambert Art, and then I have an art page
on Instagram under David Lambert Art. And I have a
Patreon which is my art, which is also David Lambert Art.
And then I have another Twitter called I think it's
David figure Art. That's all my figure work. So that's
a lot of life drawing a lot of naked people.

(02:45:59):
So warrant, but yeah, David Lambert art, you'll find me.
I think I'm on Facebook too, but I don't ever
use that, but if you want to find some of
my old art there.

Speaker 4 (02:46:12):
Yeah, and then yeah, that's yeah, those are the places
to find me.

Speaker 3 (02:46:15):
And I post about Western's Western history, sometimes analysis, sometimes
just little trivia here and there, sometimes long stories about
the Old West, a lot of comparisons to where you
can see where, you know, things in the genre, how
you might think it's new, and just I like to
post like something from the thirties or the silent era,

(02:46:38):
to show that, you know, there's nothing new under the sun,
that the genre has always been in a state of
revision and a lot of the things that we think
something like unforgiven or.

Speaker 4 (02:46:51):
You know, the good, the bad, and the ugly or
whatever if we.

Speaker 3 (02:46:56):
Or you know, we think that these are the ones
that have broke ground in some way, and it's like, nope,
all that stuff of already being done in the genre
in different ways. So I like, so I like to,
you know, do those kind of comparisons or also just
a show where ideas from Western movies, how do they

(02:47:16):
correlate to like history, the history that they're either based
on or what they get right, what they get wrong.
So it's every aspect of the Western and the Old West.

Speaker 2 (02:47:26):
So yeah, David Amberdert, all right, excellent, all right, well, David,
thank you so much.

Speaker 4 (02:47:32):
All right, thank you.

Speaker 2 (02:47:38):
I hope you enjoyed this episode. It was great to
have David Lambert back on the show. He'll be returning
soon with a topic I can't wait to talk about.
What did you think of this week's episode And if
you've seen any of the TV shows or movies we discussed,
what did you think of them. I'm especially curious to
hear listeners thoughts on The Hateful Eight, so definitely let
me know via email or on Facebook, Instagram, or X.

(02:47:58):
All the links are in the show notes. Next week,
Dan Budnick returns to talk about gun Smoke episodes ten
through twelve, and episode ten was written by Sam Peckinpauds,
the first of five of his stripted episodes that we'll
be talking about as we continue to cover Gun Smoke's
first season until then. If you're looking for more film
related podcasts, please check out other shows on Someone's Favorite
Productions podcast network. Thanks for listening.

Speaker 1 (02:48:21):
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(02:48:43):
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Episode 21: The Hateful Eight and Other Big-Screen Remakes of Western TV Episodes w/ David Lambert

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