Episode 24: Sam Peckinpah and The Rifleman with Henry Parke

Screenwriter and Film Editor for True West Magazine, Henry Parke, joins me to discuss Sam Peckinpah and his work on The Rifleman.  

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
You are now listening to the Someone's Favorite Productions podcast network.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
Welcome back to Tumbleweeds and TV Cowboys, a classic Western
film and TV podcast. My name is Hunter. This week,
screenwriter and editor for True West magazine Henry Park joins
me to talk about Sam Peckinpaw and his episodes of
The rifle Peck and Paw stint on The Rifleman was
short lived, but he managed to write six episodes, four
of which he directed, and it's always fun to talk

(00:36):
about Peck and Paw, and his work in TV is
way less discussed than his movies. So hopefully this will
motivate listeners to check out these episodes if you haven't already,
and at the time of this recording, they're streaming for
free and in pretty good quality on YouTube. But let's
get into it. Here's our conversation on The Riflemen.

Speaker 3 (00:58):
Oh Rifleman, starring Chuck Connors.

Speaker 2 (01:12):
Henry, thanks so much for coming on the show. How's
it going, terrific?

Speaker 4 (01:16):
Thank you, thanks for having me on. I've been looking
forward to this.

Speaker 2 (01:20):
Yeah, I've been looking forward to this as well. I'm
excited to have you on and I think we've got
a great topic for our discussion. But before we get
into that, can you tell us about yourself and your
history with westerns.

Speaker 4 (01:32):
Oh? Sure, thing. Well, I'm Henry Park. I wrote the
book The Greatest Westerns Ever Made and the People Who
Made Them, which is actually I'm the film editor for
True West Magazine, have been for ten years, and that
book is made up of about eighty of my articles.
So I've been writing about Westerns for a long time.

(01:55):
I've been writing the blog Henry's Western Roundup since ten.
And the odd thing is that, you know, I've been
a screenwriter. I went to film school, I've made a
couple of movies. But while I really was always a
big fan of westerns, I never thought of myself as
a Western guy. I was a comedy guy, in a

(02:18):
film noir guy, mainly because I didn't think I had
a good enough grip on Western history to write westerns.
Of course, once I realized how little history the people
who write westerns no I got right into it. But yeah,
I started. I really got involved back in twenty ten

(02:38):
when I started my blog, Henry's Western Roundup, just to
keep track of film festivals and things like that, and
right away I started getting contacted by spaghetti Western actors
and people with low budget westerns. They wanted to get
the word out on and it just grew from there.

Speaker 2 (02:58):
Right, that's awesome. Yeah, and I am including links to
your blog, Facebook page, and your book in the episode
episode description, So so listeners definitely definitely follow Henry and
track down his book. And yeah, now we've got a
really big topic. We are talking about The Rifleman, and

(03:18):
this is a series I wanted to talk about really
ever since I had the idea to start a classic
Western film and TV podcast. And we're going to get
started with a little bit of pre production history kind
of before we get into the individual episodes. So Henry,
can you talk about kind of the origin of the
series and how Sam Peckinpah got involved.

Speaker 3 (03:37):
Oh?

Speaker 4 (03:38):
Absolutely, well, the series was started out as one episode
of an anthology Western series, Dick Powell, the Great song
and dance Man of Early West, Excuse Me of early
musicals for Busby Berkeley had where youdefined himself as as

(04:00):
a film noir tough guy and later redefined himself as
a sort of Westerner and became a film and then
TV producer in the early days of television in the
mid fifties and he created this series, Dick Powell's zang
Gray Theater, which was an anthology show, so every episode

(04:20):
was a Western but about different characters. Between nineteen fifty
six and sixty one, he produced one hundred and thirty episodes.
Despite the title, only six of them were based on
Zane Gray's stories. But one thing that was the series
was very famous for was for all the series that
started out as single episodes Johnny Ringo, The Westerner, Black Saddle,

(04:46):
Track Down, Wanted Dead or Alive in The Rebel all
started out as essentially backdoor pilots from that show, and
eventually The Rifleman Wood two. The way Sam Peckinpah and
all the way it came together. There were three fellas,
fledgling producers Jules Levy, Arthur Gardner and Arnold Lavin who

(05:10):
had met when they were in the Army Air Force
Motion Picture Unit during World War Two, and when they
got out they were given a chance by Dick Powell
to create a story for the Zangry Theater. So they
were looking for material and there is Sam peckinpo Peck
and Pop had become a brilliant screenwriter as a means

(05:33):
to direct. That's always was his focus. But he learned
to be a screenwriter on Gun Smoke back when it
was a half hour episodes. And what he did was
he adapted ten radio scripts because it started, of course
as a radio show, and he adapted ten of them
to television and really learned the process that way. And

(05:54):
then he wrote two original stories for Gun Smoke and
they didn't want either one. So one of them was
called The Sharpshooter, and he offered it to Dick Powell
at Zane Gray Theater and Dick Powell snapped it up
and then handed it over to Levy and Gardner and Levin. Well,

(06:17):
the plot was simple and depressing. A skilled marksman enters
a shooting contest, but the town powers had thatt on
someone else. They let him know that if he wins,
he'll die. He throws the match. The end heartwarming. Yes,
of course they hated it. I mean, by the standards

(06:39):
of the West, the guy's a coward, right, But then
Arnold Lavin suggested, what if he has a boy and
it's the boy who's being threatened and to his like
lasting regret. Let me quote what sam Peckinpash says about
that quote, I said, that's a hell of an idea. Therefore,

(07:00):
he told me I do not deserve to get creator credit.
In other words, because Lemon came up with the idea
of the sun. He said, it's not your story anymore.
And which is kind of tragic when you think about it,
because creator credit isn't just nice with the writers Guild

(07:23):
contract the way it is. If he had gotten created
by credit, he would have been paid by the producers
for every single episode of the series. So that was
that worked out badly for Sam.

Speaker 2 (07:37):
Yeah, definitely. And so he already had the Sharpshooter. And
and this was at this point, I think this was
in nineteen fifty eight. And then by the popularity of
Western TV series at this time was unbelievable. I think
by like by nineteen fifty nine, there were forty eight
Western TV shows on the air, which is which is

(07:59):
just an incredible.

Speaker 4 (08:02):
Amount, mind boggling to think that there were that many
horses available.

Speaker 2 (08:07):
Yeah, but the Riflemen, I do think offered something a
little different from the formula that a lot of Western
series had become at the time. What are some of
the things that you think set the Riflemen apart from
other classic Western TV shows.

Speaker 4 (08:24):
Well, one thing probably the core thing. When you look
at all of the other great Western shows at the time,
I'm thinking Gun Smoke at gun Will, Travel, Wagon Train,
they were all about men, individual men, not married, no families.
The Riflemen was about family and not rich families like

(08:48):
say the Cartwrights or later on the Cannons from High
Chaparral Y the Lancers, the McCain's father and son were
barely scraping by. It was the realism, especially when lucas
powerful as he is, can't defeat all the bad guys
and win the shooting contest in the in the pilot,

(09:09):
I mean, yeah, he's strong and he's a great shot,
but sometimes he has to lose. He's human, and I
think the degree of reality of a hero who is
not you know, like wearing tights and flying as in
most Westerns in a sense, I think it was it

(09:31):
was Gun Smoke was I think the one that really
established a degree of realism and maturity that they never
had before in in Western television, and Rifleman took it
that much further by making it a story not just
about you know, individuals on the planes, by themselves, but

(09:53):
a family, even tho it was just two units.

Speaker 2 (09:57):
Yeah, I agree. I think that the the show is
like surprisingly mature, especially given the era, and that it
has like a child at the center of it. And
I'm actually going through gun Smokes first season as a

(10:18):
part of the podcast, and I've found that the Riflemen,
I feel like the stakes are higher and the violence
is more impactful than anything I've seen in Gun Smokes
first season. Now, obviously gun Smoke went on for a
long long time, so I'm sure it has some things

(10:40):
that will you know, potentially match the Riflemen, But here
in the first season, like right away, I do think
it's you see that this is a very mature show.
Even though it has you know, kind of it's it's
it's still mostly pretty safe for the whole family though.

Speaker 4 (11:01):
It is well now when you think of like the
the pilot episode where Leif Ericson makes it clear that
he's going to shoot Mark if the rifleman wins his contest,
nothing is said. He puts the gun next to the
kid's head. The kid doesn't see it. We get it,

(11:24):
but that's the sort of moment that might very well
go buy a kid watching anyhow, Oh, absolutely so that
that was what I thought. It really struck a wonderful
balance where it was appropriate for kids to see, but
it was it was not at all childish, right, And
you know one thing that I found interesting watching these

(11:46):
the six Sam peckenpot episodes back to back. People always
talk about how violent the show was. And an interview
I read Chuck Connters he talked he was talking about
how he killed an average of two and a half
p per episode, and which is kind of an interesting
statistic that it is. Yeah, and he pointed out that

(12:09):
Lucas would always tell Mark, you know that it's never
good to kill a man, but sometimes you had no choice.
It was, you know, kill or die. But unless I
missed some in for the six episodes, he doesn't kill anyone, right,
I think these were actually some of the less violent
episodes that Sam peck and Paul Bloody Sam made.

Speaker 2 (12:31):
Yeah, and who knows how accurate the two and a
half people per episode is. I think he may have
just he may have patted the numbers there a little bit.

Speaker 4 (12:41):
He might have.

Speaker 2 (12:42):
It's true. All right, Well we're going to get into
the first episode, now, Henry, do you have a synopsis
for this episode. You kind of you basically said it
when you broke down what Pekapa's original idea was, but
it did change a little bit.

Speaker 4 (12:59):
Sure, Well, here's hears my synopsis. If you want Lucas
McCain Chuck Conners, a man with a mysterious past, A
widowed father comes to North Fork with his ten year
old son Mark Johnny Crawford, and they decide to make
an offer on a ranch that's for sale. A shooting
contest is about to be held, and if Lucas can win,

(13:21):
he'll have a sizeable down payment on the ranch. His
main competition is a wet behind the ears professional shooter
Vernon Callo and cocky but likable played with startling death
by a very young Dennis Hopper. Ether Man could win,
but the money behind Hopper is Leif Ericson, who wins
all competitions he's enters at all costs. Erickson obliquely threatens

(13:44):
to kill Mark if Vernon doesn't win.

Speaker 2 (13:47):
All right, well done, well, since this is since we're
talking about six episodes, I don't think we're going to
go too deep into each one, but I think we
should at least give our general thoughts and talk about
kind of what stands out in each episode. Henry, what
did you think of this episode?

Speaker 4 (14:02):
Well, I absolutely love it. I think it was beautifully
directed by Arnold Leavin, and it's full of interesting characters.
Dennis Hopper's sort of dandy gunman who you realize was
robbed of his childhood so he gravitates towards little Mark.
It's I mean, it's so original. R. G. Armstrong is

(14:24):
a law man who has been corrupted by cowardice but
feels he can do a little good. Is I think
novel and I think we've all known people who try
to do good up to the point where it's like
of any risk, right. And I think one of the
really interesting things is having Armstrong in it because this
was the beginning of Sam's stock company. I think when

(14:50):
you think of a director having a stock company, people
just assume, well, he worked with somebody liked him, so
he brought him back. You know, it can rely on
them that it develops our organically. But I think that
this was really Pecking Pau's planned very early on.

Speaker 3 (15:06):
L Q.

Speaker 4 (15:06):
Jones told me about meeting Sam and in nineteen fifty
five on the set of an Annapolis story Don Siegal
was directing, and Peckinpa was a dialogue coach. And I'll
quote LQ who says, Sam said, listen, kid, we're going
to be working together because I'm going to be a director,
and I'll remember you. True to worried. And this was

(15:27):
when he was a dialogue director. He was nobody, but
true to his word. Once he got a little foothold,
here comes came the calls and he and l Q
ended up doing He thought it was about seventeen projects together.
What I would just say, what I really struck me

(15:47):
because it's the first time you see Johnny Crawford, although
for a twelve year old he had a heck of
a resume already he had been doing tons, but he
is such a good convincing act here. I put him
up there with like Roddy McDowell and Natalie Wood and
all the young Mickey Rooney, all those great adolescent uh

(16:10):
kid actors that you absolutely believe. You know. He got
nominated for a Best Supporting Actor Oscar uh and lost
it to Dennis Weaver as Chester in Gunsmoke. Yeah, he
was up against adults, but I just thought he was
a revelation.

Speaker 2 (16:32):
Oh yeah, he's he is tremendous, and I like you,
I love this episode. I think he's an outstand It's
like an outstanding first episode, and I mean, how could
you not want to see more like based on the
quality of this one, Like, I think Chuck Connors and
Johnny Crawford are perfectly cast as father and son, and

(16:52):
I think the supporting cast is great. And I agree
with you on on Dennis Hopper, uh and and overall,
I love seeing kind of a pre stoned out of
his mind Dennis Hopper. I mean, it's possibly he was
high as a kite during this, but he definitely doesn't
seem that way. It's just a great small story. I

(17:13):
think the ending lands beautifully, like that moment where you
see Mark after Lucas walks out of the saloon, like
after the shootout, Like the emotion on Mark's face is
so real. And I know a lot of people are
annoyed by child actors, but I'm with you on putting
him up there with someone like Natalie Wood. I think

(17:39):
that Johnny Crawford is just very natural, Like I can't
imagine anyone having a problem with his performance in the series.
And I think Lavin's direction is really top notch, Like
there's some nice camera movements and stylistically, I think I
would say this is superior to a lot of what
I've seen from in TV. From this, and even though

(18:03):
Peck and Pa wasn't able to receive a creator credit
because of this, I do think his adding the Sun
character is really one of the things that makes this
show so special. And yeah, I don't want to go
too much more into it. I feel like this we
could do a long, a long discussion on some of

(18:26):
these episodes, but I do think that it is just
a terrific half hour of TV and a wonderful introduction
to these characters. But did you have anything else to
add on this episode before we move on to Home Ranch.

Speaker 4 (18:42):
I don't think so. I think that we pretty well covered,
din't I always say it's a good idea to spend
less than the half hour talking about a half hour show.

Speaker 2 (18:53):
Yes, all right, Well, we are moving on to episode two,
which is titled Home Ranch. And Henry, do you also
have a synopsis for this episode?

Speaker 4 (19:04):
Yes, I do, and I want to point out what's
unusual about this is it plays like a continuation of
the pilot and I don't know if any other two
episodes that where the plot continues one to another. But
Lucas and Mark have just filed to buy the ranch
have barely started to get settled when two ranch hands

(19:26):
worked for powerful rancher Oak Jackford tell them the deed
that deed or no deed. Jackford needs the Landford grazing,
and when Lucas doesn't go along, one rokes and drags
him around the property. Then they burn his new house
to the ground. Well, Mark stays with the property that
what property they have left. Lucas tracks the ranch hands

(19:49):
and eventually gets a drop on them on another cowboy,
and eventually Jackford played by imposing Harold Stone. Lucas has
plenty of opportunity to kill them all, and he has
a huge brawl with Jackfred, demanding that Jackford keep off
his land and pay for the damage. Jackford grudgingly agrees,
and as Lucas joins Mark, they're joined by the two

(20:11):
ranch hands with a load of lumber and they set
to work rebuilding the house.

Speaker 2 (20:17):
All right, So yeah, like you mentioned right away, it's
so interesting that this episode picks up where the previous
episode left off, because I think at this point there
might have been some shows that had a story that
played out over two episodes, and I know that there
were some soap operas that were serialized, I think in

(20:37):
the late fifties. But the idea of a series that
isn't like purely episodic is still kind of new for
this time. But what did you what did you think
of this episode? Well?

Speaker 4 (20:52):
I liked it very much. I thought it was very
strong and interesting for a couple of sequences. Well, when
the house has been burnt and Mark says, looks to
me like the lord's dead set against us having a
place of our own. Now, Pekenpah often had characters who

(21:14):
were very religious, but very hypocritical, right, but Sam knew
his Bible. And there's a remarkable sequence where Lucas tells
Mark the story of job all the time while he's
doing business with harnesses and saddles. And I timed it.
It's an unbroken three minute monologue in a half hour western.

(21:34):
I'm just unheard of inspiring telling the whole story of job,
which really lifts Mark's spirits and really gives us insight
into Lucas's history and character, and you also thoroughly believe
him as a ranchers from seeing how well he handles
all that stuff right, And then while Lucas is stalking

(21:54):
and eventually fighting all the cowboys around the campfire, it's
intercut with Mark making his campfire, figuring out how to
unharness the team, feed himself try to sleep all the
time imagining bobcats and rattlesnakes around him, but cowboying up
and handling it. I just think it's it's that whole

(22:16):
parallel thing is so unusual and so well done, just elegant,
I think, And it just it creates this great respect
in you for this little kid who is winging it.
He doesn't, you know, he doesn't know how to do
any of this stuff, but he's learning it. And yeah,

(22:36):
I just I find the little guy inspiring. And his
dad's good too.

Speaker 2 (22:41):
Oh absolutely, yeah. Yeah. Now, I wouldn't put this on
the same level as The Sharpshooter, but I still think
it's a pretty strong episode. And I think that the
villains Y Steve Roland and Lee far I think that
they're pretty effective, as is Harold Stone, who's really like

(23:03):
the big Boss but doesn't doesn't really cause as much
harm to Lucas as Roland and Fardo.

Speaker 4 (23:10):
And right, and the the interesting thing I think about
that is they're doing it to please him, and he's
upset as as soon as he learns they burn the house. Right,
He's not as bad a guy as they think their
boss is. So it's yeah, sort of interesting levels there.

Speaker 2 (23:27):
Yeah, definitely, Yeah, And and and Harold Stone. I mean,
he's in a lot of classic Western TV shows, and
I think he's always good. And then the Yeah, the
opening where we see Lucas get dragged and their house
burned down in front of his son, I think is
another example of the of the show having steaks and

(23:48):
also not being afraid to have villains who are truly
awful people. And I enjoy uh the moments where we
see Lucas stalk the villains like in the dark, and
then the fight between Oak, Jackford and Lucas I think
is really solid too. Oh yes, and I I kind
of the scenes with Mark. I wish they had relied

(24:10):
a little more on audio and less on the visuals.
I think it could have been a little more effective
that way, but it doesn't. It doesn't really take away
from the quality of the episode. I still think overall
it's just pretty solid entertainment. But uh but yeah, that's
pretty much all I have on on that one. I think,

(24:32):
you know, it's it's it's it's not as impactful as
a few of the other episodes, but I still think
it's it's really strong.

Speaker 4 (24:39):
Yeah, I just started think of it as an extension
of the pilot. Yes, as that I probably like it
better than if it was completely a standalone I I
know what you mean. It's it's not plot heavy at all, right,
and uh, I'm sorry I missed the names of the
two actors in the beginning that you mentioned. Who are

(25:00):
you know, trashing the place and and dragging Lucas and
so on. But it's it's very interesting how they are
not playing it like your your standard sleazy bandit kind
of guy at all or very course they're like, hey,
you know, don't take this personally. We're just doing this

(25:22):
because this is what the boss wants and he'll probably
pay you for your land and all that. But you
just have to get out, but you understand, right, and
then drag him by the horse a little more. But
I mean, it's it's it's no there's no agster ish.

Speaker 2 (25:38):
Yeah, there's no passion or like anger in it. It
is almost just like out out of duty.

Speaker 4 (25:47):
Yeah, this is our job. We drag people. Yeah yeah,
it's so unusual.

Speaker 2 (25:52):
Yeah yeah, definitely. All right. Now we're moving on to
a two episode, number four, called the Marshall and this
episode is notable for a couple reasons. It's the first
episode of the series directed by Sam Peckinpaw and prior
to directing this, he had only directed the series finale
of Broken Arrow. And I know that's a show based

(26:15):
on the Jimmy Stewart movie of the same name, but
I've never seen an episode of the series. But this
is the first of four episodes that The Rifleman of
The Rifleman that Peck and Paw would direct, and it
features a few actors who he would work with we
once he started making features. I mean, you know, obviously

(26:36):
Warren Oates is in this and he's a key figure
in Peck and PAW's filmography. And you already mentioned R. G.
Armstrong and then James Dreweries in this episode. And then
another behind the scenes collaborator with Peck and Paw is
Jack Garris, and he has a story credit on this episode,
and he co wrote an episode of Klondike with Peck

(26:57):
and Paw, and he was also an associate producer on
The Westerner. All right, well, Henry, can you tell us
what this episode's about?

Speaker 4 (27:06):
Sure, three bad men drift into North Fork, and two
of a bone to pick with town drunk Micah Torrens.
Once a law man, Lucas gives Micah some tough love,
hiring him to do labor on his ranch and dry
him out. But with the two still gunning for Micah
and the third planning to take over the town, Micah

(27:29):
needs to dry out fast to help Lucas.

Speaker 2 (27:31):
Yes, now, this this is an episode I'm really looking
forward to hearing your thoughts on. So what did you
think of the Marshall?

Speaker 4 (27:38):
Well? I liked it a lot. I'm so glad you
pointed out that only four episodes in they trusted Sam
who had directed one TV half hour, as you say,
the last episode of a show that had been canceled,
and they let him direct episode for they must that

(28:00):
had great faith in it, which of course was very
well founded. Yes, yeah, but anyhow, it is quite a show.
It's as you say it, well, one thing, it's important
for the series, not only because it introduces Paul Fix's
character Michah Marshall Michaeh Torrence. It's kind of a first

(28:26):
draft a Peck and Pau's Ride the High Country. Yeah, definitely,
and it's loaded with those new members of the Stock Company.
It features Abby Dalton and what would become the Marriott
Hartley role of the lonely girl impressed and seduced by
a swab stranger, with James Drury as that stranger in
both the TV show and the movie m HM and R. G. Armstrong,

(28:50):
as you're saying is he's back as the weak lawman,
and here he plays the girl's uncle and guardian, and
in the movie he plays her father and Warren Oates, who,
as you say, had a longer history than anyone else.
I think with pack and Pop he'd be an I

(29:10):
think all of his Westerns except Deadly Companions. He plays
James Jury's no account saddlement in this episode and his
no account brother in the movie Ride the High Country.

Speaker 2 (29:22):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (29:23):
Going along with Ride the High Country parallels Lucas is
essentially the Joe mccraig character, whoor and hard working, disappointed
in Paul Fix's Micah, like the morally compromised Randolph Scott
in the film and in the end the perceived corrupt,
wicked man or weakened man. I should say, Micah has

(29:46):
to rise to the occasion, and even though Lucas is
the hero, he has to be saved by Micah, just
as I might point out in the pilot he had
to be saved by Dennis Hopper. Right, I'm not going
to say it takes a village. While most Western heroes

(30:07):
have to save the day alone, Pecan Paw allows his
heroes to have help and help from people that redeem
themselves by doing it. They're not just you know, heroes themselves.
They're slobs that have really triumphed over their weaknesses. So
I think it's a terrific show.

Speaker 2 (30:27):
Oh yeah, this is another episode that I absolutely love.
I think Pecan Pau's direction is terrific. I love kind
of the unhinged quality to the Shelton brothers you played
by Oates and Robert Wilkie. Oh yeah, And I think
that they're effective but also just really entertaining, like they

(30:49):
seem to be having a blast. You're destroying the saloon,
which they get to destroy it twice, right, And I
think that people who have only seen peckin Pau's move. Yeah,
we'll we'll definitely see these characters and be reminded of
other characters like like you mentioned in Peck and Pau's work.
And I do want to quote David Wettle's book if

(31:13):
they Move kill Him because I love the way he
says this. But he he describes the Shelton Brothers as
the first of many such rabbid jackals, and and then
he mentions the the Hammond and the Gorge brothers and
several other characters before saying who would trot through Peck
and Pau's landscape in search of fresh meat? And I
think that's just I couldn't say it better. So I

(31:35):
was like, I just I'll just quote him.

Speaker 4 (31:36):
Oh yeah, no, that that absolutely encapsules Yeah.

Speaker 2 (31:41):
And and I had seen James Drewry and other things
before I originally watched this episode. I mean Ride the
High Country being an obvious example. But this episode made
me seek out more of James Drury's work, and I've
become a big fan of his. It's and it's really
fun to see him as a villain. I think he's

(32:02):
so good in this episode, and I love the reveal
that he's actually the one in charge. He lets the
brothers kind of run amuck and have a certain level
of control. But the moment where he reminds him them
whose boss, I think is great. And like you mentioned,
this introduces Paul Fix's character, and I'm on board. Anytime

(32:26):
there's a Western character who starts off a drunk and
then sobers up and puts on a badge, that just
always works. Yes, but yeah, this is a great episode
and I think I would say this is essential for
Peck and Paw enthusiasts. If you're a fan of his movies,
I think that you would love this episode.

Speaker 4 (32:48):
Oh, I think so absolutely. It's I mean, you really
get an insight into so many of the relationships and
attitudes that are important to him you'll be seeing throughout
his career.

Speaker 2 (33:03):
Yeah, now, I know you at some point interviewed James
Drury and and talked I spoke with him about working
with Peg and Paul. Can you share some of the
things that that he said.

Speaker 4 (33:17):
Oh gosh, you know, I'm sorry, it's it's been a while.
Sin's okay, got over that. What you know, what I
what I think of what I think of James Drury
at our interview was that you started out being very annoyed.

Speaker 2 (33:31):
That he was.

Speaker 4 (33:33):
He had to. He had just completed a very long
drive and h I forget where, you know, where he
was going from place to place, but it was major cities.
It was, you know, like a thousand miles or something.
And I said, why didn't you fly? And he says,
because they won't let me bring my guns. Wow, they said, okay,

(33:56):
the Virgin Okay, that's yeah, that's well.

Speaker 2 (34:02):
Well that's a good little little little uh tidbit there
that that's wild. But but yeah, but I think that's
all I've really got on this episode. Like I said,
it is.

Speaker 4 (34:15):
You remind me about what I what I said that
he said about Peck and Paul, So if I can
join in there, I'm sorry, I haven't looked over that
in a while.

Speaker 2 (34:24):
Oh, no problem. No, I I remember seeing you post
the interview on Facebook and at some at some point
I feel like you maybe reposted it somewhat recently and
I read it, and all I really remember him saying
was that he knew that Peck and Paul was like
a very special talent, like from from from from the

(34:45):
get go. But other specifics than that I can't recall.
But yeah, up next is, uh, well, do you have
any other thoughts on the Marshal. I think we covered
it pretty well.

Speaker 4 (35:00):
I think so. I think we got it. We got
that one down.

Speaker 2 (35:04):
All right. So next up is episode twenty two. We're
still in the first season. In this episode is called
the Boarding House and it was written and directed by
Peck and Paw and Chuck Conners is uncredited, but according
to IMDb, the story was his idea, or at least
he collaborated collaborated with Peck and Paw on it. And

(35:25):
then the guest star is Katie Herado, right, and she
would work with Peck and Paw again on an episode
of The Westerner. And she's also in Pat Garrett and
Billy the Kid, right, And she was in other Western
movies and TV shows, I mean most notably. I mean
she's in High Noon and she's in One Eyed Jack's
as well. But she's great, and I think she's got

(35:46):
a pretty strong filmography. But let's get into this this episode.
What is this what is this one about?

Speaker 4 (35:55):
Well, when a disreputable gambler and his two female dealers
are run out of ten, they head north to rather,
they head to North Fork. There, Julia Katie Herado. Of course,
Gary Cooper's girlfriend from High Noon is running a respectable
boarding house, but she was once a crooked dealer card

(36:15):
dealer for sid Fallon played by Alan Baxter, and he
and his cohorts are determined to force Julia back into
the game and turn her boarding house into a saloon.
Lucas recognizes her, and he's unsympathetic she swindled a friend
of his out of his life savings. Well, when he's
convinced that she wants a simple, honest life, he helps

(36:35):
her and as he says to Mark, quote, we've all
done things we'd like to forget, and thank Heaven, most
of us are able to unquote.

Speaker 2 (36:45):
Yeah, Now, I like this episode quite a bit. But
what'd you think of it?

Speaker 4 (36:52):
Well, it's you know, it's funny because I changed my
mind on this. Of the six episodes, this was my
least favorite. Oh okay, and it just it seems so
contrived with the bad guys going around spoiling Julia's reputation
of forcer into being a crooked poker play dealer. What
and then I suddenly understood. I think that this script

(37:13):
was heavily censored. I think in the original story and
I'm just going by implication. I don't know this, but
I think Julia wasn't a crooked at gambler. She was
the madam of a brothel. That would make a lot
of sense, because I mean, that's a life that women
are forced into and can't leave when their reputation catches
up with him. I think sid Fallon was her pimp,

(37:35):
and she wears the knife scar in her cheek that
he gave her. I mean, no casino owner marks his
dealers with a knife. Yeah, it's a pit prostitute thing.
But I think it was considered a little too sordid
for the show, and so they cleaned it up. You know,
in a way, it's like with gun smoke. They never

(37:56):
say what Miss Kitty's business is. M But if all
those girls are waitresses, why are they always going upstairs
during working hours?

Speaker 2 (38:05):
Right?

Speaker 4 (38:06):
You know, It's it's a little confusing, definitely. You know,
I watched it twice in a row, once thinking brothel,
and then the whole thing made great sense to me,
and I liked it so much more. Although I do
think that what's his name, Baxter, Alan Baxter that he

(38:27):
has to fight with is just too weasily to be intimidating.
You know, I think they should have gotten a bigger pimp.
Yeah for Chuck Conters to fight.

Speaker 2 (38:40):
Yeah, I do. I like this one quite a bit.
I think that it does have kind of peck and
pause energy, like from the opening, and there is even
there there is some shattered glass early on, but it
does not turn into the destruction we enjoyed in the Marshall.
And this episode also has a pre credit scene. I
don't think any of the other episodes we're talking about

(39:01):
has one. But I think overall, I think it's got
a pretty good story. I think Katie herado Is is
really good in it, and you know, her character is,
you know, obviously trying to escape her past, but it
keeps catching up with her. And you know, this time,
I like that there are people in the town who

(39:23):
kind of want to see her basically be forced to leave.
And but this time she has a support system and
the people who are kind of like trying to bring
her back to the lifestyle she's trying to leave behind
won't bother her anymore because she's got you know, Lucas. Now.

(39:46):
I am really surprised that she didn't become a reoccurring character,
because it does feel like she's being set up as
a potential, you know, reoccurring character, and even as a
possible like romantic interest for Lucas, because at the end
of this episode, Johnny asks him us ask Lucas if wait,

(40:11):
am I getting this wrong? At the end of this episode, yeah,
Mark asked Lucas if he thinks Julia can run a
boarding house and be a mom, and Lucas sort of
laughs and says he reckons so, and so I am
kind of surprised that she didn't become a reoccurring character.

(40:31):
And maybe that was never an idea that Peck and
Paw or the other people involved in developing the series had,
but I think that could have been interesting. Now. The
one character that I did find kind of loathsome is Agnes,

(40:52):
who is the sister of a character John Hamilton, who
is a reoccurring character. I think he's in maybe fifteen
or twenty episodes. He's not in a bunch of them,
but he is. John Hamilton is somebody who is in
multiple episodes. But I'm glad she's one and done. She
is a rough character to take and I get that

(41:14):
he's supposed to be unlikable but yeah, I don't think
that's really all I have. I think it's a solid episode.
I don't think it is. I wouldn't say it's my
least favorite, but it's I would rank it towards the
bottom though, of these six episodes.

Speaker 4 (41:33):
Oh, speaking of miss Agnes there, I do particularly sort
of enjoy where Mark says a whole string of incredibly
rude things to her at the dinner table, because they're
all stuff that you know, he's correcting her, or the
way she eats and her matters and how she speaks

(41:56):
exactly like Lucas clearly corrects Mark. Yes, And the fun
of it is that I keep waiting for Lucas to
say something like shut up, son, but you can tell
everyone is disgusted with her, so they're just letting him
go on even though they really shouldn't. But that that
is one of the really endearing things.

Speaker 2 (42:17):
In that show. Yes, that that is an amusing moment there,
and uh and I and and he does eventually get
in get into trouble. I think he's mentioned something about
how old she looks, and then at that point Lucas
takes him to another room. But the things he's telling
her is I think the other adult characters in the

(42:38):
room probably agree with him.

Speaker 4 (42:41):
Yes, I think so too.

Speaker 2 (42:44):
All right, well we are moving on to uh still
in the same still in the first season. This is
episode thirty three and it's called the Money Gun. And
this is another uh This is an episode with another
behind the scenes collaborator that Paul worked with, and it's
his name is Bruce Geller, and he co wrote this

(43:05):
episode and he also wrote an earlier episode in the
series called The Gaucho, and he wrote four episodes of
The Westerner, and he went on and he actually went
on to create the Mission Impossible series, right, And he
was one of the creators on a series I used
to enjoy called Mannix. And this episode's guest star is
John Dayner, who he was in just about everything. I mean,

(43:29):
he has three hundred and three credits. And he was
in an episode of gun Smoke that my guest Dan Budnick,
and I talked about and he was loathsome in it.
We both wanted to strangle him. But here he's pretty
great and.

Speaker 4 (43:47):
The other stars loathsome, yes.

Speaker 2 (43:49):
Also loathsome absolutely. But the other guest star is Bert Freed,
and he plays Oate Jackford, who of course, has the
same oat Jackford from Home Ranch, so it is interesting
to see this character return, and this time played by
a different actor who I think also plays him very well.
But Henry, can you give us to the synopsis for

(44:12):
this one?

Speaker 4 (44:13):
Sure? Tom King played by John Dayner, a dapper lawman
turned hired gun, comes to North Fork to draw someone
into a gunfight so he can kill them. Lucas knows
King from when he was a deputy under King and
despises him when Lucas learns King has been paid to
kill landowner Oak Jackfred his enemy from Home Ranch, although,

(44:37):
as you point out, now played by a different actor
but also very good, Lucas does everything he can to
dissuade Oak from confronting him, but odinsists and ultimately wins
by beating King Haf to death with his bare hands,
and he and King both knowing it would be murder
if King pulled a gun. In the end, the weasel

(44:59):
who paid a King shoots him and is led off
to beat tried for burder.

Speaker 5 (45:06):
I mean it's just a plot, yes, yet now to
keep out of the way. Really yeah, now, what did.

Speaker 2 (45:17):
You what did you think of this episode? Uh?

Speaker 4 (45:21):
Well, I liked it a lot because it's fun and
it's it's so unexpected. I like that of all the
people they that they could decide to have be the
the guy who you know is going to be the victim,

(45:42):
they give us the guy that is so unlikable from
the past that Mark says, actually Mark says to his dad, gee,
I hope gets killed, yeah, which which gives Lucas the
chance to they don't ever be glad Man's gonna die.
But what I like is is Oak wins by using

(46:06):
his head smarter than Lucas or Micah or Tom King
about how to play this game, and about not bringing
a gun, and and of course he even makes the
point to break up King's gun hand, not knowing he's
going to be killed, to put him out of business,

(46:27):
which struck me just like Dennis Hopper got shot in
the hand at the end of the pilot. It's yeah, yeah,
It's just sort of a curious repeat. And Danner, I
think is terrific and an actor of great range. He
was on the radio. He was palid In on the

(46:49):
radio version of Have Gun Will Travel. He played Pat
Garrett to Paul Newman's Billy the Kid in the left
handed gun. I love that he is so sort of
aristocratic in his mind. He has such contempt for anyone
that would actually hire him rather than do their own fighting,
that he won't drink with the man who's paid him

(47:11):
five hundred dollars in advance. Yes, I just think that,
you know, it's another really great example of what could
be a very familiar character that I guess between Peg
and Pahn and Bruce Geller, they really made into this
terribly memorable guy. And yeah, I'm surprised as a matter

(47:34):
of fact that Old Oak did not come back again
as far as I know, because, yeah, bringing him back once.
And by the way, I agree with you. I thought
Katie Herrado was going to be back. Also, I thought
they really set that up with Johnny from the last episode.

Speaker 2 (47:52):
Yeah, that would it would have been really interesting. And
I can't I feel like they did have some love
interests later on in the series. I can't recall specifically.

Speaker 4 (48:07):
I'm trying to think of her name, Irish actress, Irish
American who was also the wife on the Daniel Boone series,
and she was on quite a few episodes.

Speaker 2 (48:21):
Yeah, I can't. I can't recall who it.

Speaker 4 (48:23):
Was and it will come to me.

Speaker 2 (48:26):
But but yet, now I'm going to sound like a
broken record. But I love this episode as well. I
like you. I think Danner is fantastic as Tom King,
and I think Bert Freed brings something different to Oat
Jackford character, to the Oat Jackford character Van Harold Stone?

(48:47):
Did he actually you mentioned that you were interested in
Noirs earlier on? And I thought Bert Freed kind of
remind reminded me of the type of character William Bendix
would play in an are kind of a little oafish,
but you have very tough and you know in home Ranch,

(49:08):
Haroldstone is a fighter, but you get the sense he's
more likely to use his henchmen than do the fighting himself.

Speaker 3 (49:16):
Yeah, but.

Speaker 2 (49:18):
There's one A brief moment that really stood out to
me this time around was early in an episode where
a character named Bert is telling Lucas that he has
to sell everything he has thanks to Jackford, right, and
he says Jackford never gave him a break and that
he's been having some bad weather recently, and Lucas's response

(49:39):
to him is that we all get the same weather.
It's not Jackford's fault that you get wet out of
a bottle, and I thought it was so interesting that
you naturally have sympathy for a character who has to
give up everything they have, especially since we know what
type of character oat Jackford is, and so you want

(50:02):
to root for people that he's hurting. But here Lucas
has no sympathy and is basically saying he's you're losing
everything because you're a drunk, not because of this character,
and so I I thought that was a really interesting moment.
And I also I love the way they build up

(50:24):
Tom King. He's this unstoppable gunman, you know, they even
say that Lucas is no match for him, and then
when he faces off with oat Jackford, yeah, Jackford has
no fear. He just walks right towards him, never reaching
for a weapon, and since he doesn't draw, of course
Tom King can't either, and King is no match for

(50:45):
Jackford when it comes to just hand to hand fighting,
and so it's almost comedic, like the way Jackford just
keeps walking towards King. And I think Danner's reaction also
to him just continuing to walk forward within you know,
never reaching for his weapon, is also kind of funny.

(51:05):
But yeah, overall, I just think it's it is a terrific,
terrific episode. But do you have any final thoughts on
this one? Are you ready to move on?

Speaker 4 (51:16):
Well, I would just throw in that, like so many
of them, they're full of these these little directorial touches
that are just unexpected. There's and they're so small, but
it grabs your attention. Like there's a point where they
slide a bottle of whiskey along the bar and there's

(51:38):
a glass on top of the bottle, so it rattles.

Speaker 2 (51:41):
The whole way.

Speaker 4 (51:44):
Oh yeah, little moments like that Lucas when he's sitting
on a horse waiting I think for I'm not positive,
but he's waiting for some character to come along, and
he's just sitting with one leg thrown over the top.

Speaker 2 (51:59):
Of the saddle.

Speaker 4 (52:01):
You never see a cowboy in a western sitting like that, right,
But it's just like, huh, he must really be comfortable.

Speaker 2 (52:09):
Up there, you know.

Speaker 4 (52:09):
It's just they're full of these little things that they
add that just make you pay attention. Just I'll just
throw back from a couple of episodes ago with Warren
Oates the fact that he was wearing shoulder holsters when
nobody wore shoulder holsters and westerns, but they were really

(52:31):
out there. Just the Peck and Pie episodes always looked
like they were made by someone who didn't see too
many other westerns. You know that they're happy to not
repeat stuff.

Speaker 2 (52:44):
Right, all right? Excellent? Okay, so we are moving on
to now. This is the only episode from season two
that Peck and Paw is credited on, and this is
episode twelve, and it's called The Babysitter and John Dayner
is back, and this time he's playing a religious psycho

(53:07):
named Wood Bartel. And the other guest stars are Lillian
Bronson who was in She actually was in the previous
episode in this season, playing a different character. And then
Phyllis Avery who plays Leona is the wife who's running
away from Wood Bartel. Yeah, but Henry, this is this

(53:27):
is our final plot, Sumery. Can you tell us what
this episode's about?

Speaker 4 (53:33):
Sure, as you say, John Dayner is back. Now he's Bartel,
a religious fanatic with a bull whip looking for his
wife who is run off with their baby daughter and
is singing in saloons. Lucas and most of the town
go to the mother's aid, helping her hide out the baby.
But when Mark is guarding her at the ranch. Bartel

(53:54):
locks him in the meat smoking house and escapes with
the baby. Lucas and Bartelovis show down in town. Bartel
whips the rifle from Lucas's hand, then flogs him until
Lucas grabs the end of the whip, jerks it from
his hand, and beats it, and the baby goes off
happily ever after with her mother.

Speaker 2 (54:14):
All right, now, I'm gonna say right away, now this
is actually my least favorite. Oh it's yours, Okay, excellent.
So I'm curious to hear your thoughts. What did you think?

Speaker 4 (54:26):
Well? The things I like. I love Danner's wonderful speeches.
I've washed my hands of that Jezebel outside chest Tis
when I've nothing left to offer. I followed where to
get my own back? They my daughter. I will not
have the small one following in the foot in the
steps of her mother. I mean, this is just you know,

(54:49):
when you have an actor with that kind of a
voice and delivery, it's it's wonderful. Yeah. But what among
the things that bother me is you could make the
argument that you know she's singing in a saloon. That's
the wonderful life that they're offering is singing in a
saloon like a euphemism, like say, being a crooked car dealer.

(55:12):
It could be My favorite moment in the whole thing
is marked resourcefulness using a smoked ham to smash his
way out of the barn.

Speaker 2 (55:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (55:23):
And uh, one way, you know that this was written
by a man and not a woman. Would a woman
write a scene where men are taking care of a
child for a short time they decide to change her name.
I mean, I know they never caught heed, right, is
just it's it's weird. Yeah, everyone's support of her just

(55:46):
seems so random to me. As you say to me,
this is the weakest of them.

Speaker 2 (55:53):
Yeah, now, I now immediately you know when you see
John Dayner in this he has this hitty is fake beard.
And if you've listened to any of the episodes where
Dan bud Nick and I have talked about the first
season of gun Smoke, you know, fake beards usually means
we're getting a bad episode. And I'm just really not

(56:16):
into this episode. I think the concept is okay. The execution, though,
is really lacking. And I don't know what Peck and
Paul contributed to the script and what Jack Curtis brought
to it. But I'm going to sign and I'm going
to sign a sign all of the blame to Curtis.
But I and on one thing, I was reminded, I

(56:38):
I don't know if you were, but of the movie
The Night of the Hunter, which is one of my
favorite movies. I absolutely love Night of the Hunter. But
I don't know if it's a movie Peck and Paw
was a fan of. But I think the idea of
a psychotic religious man like trying to track down his
child because he thinks his wife, who you know, works

(57:01):
as a saloon girl, isn't fit to raise the child
child anymore. Now that's not the exact story of Night
of the Hunter, but I do think there are some similarities.
And I think the scene where Wood shows up at
the ranch and it's just marking the baby at the ranch,
I think is pretty effective, just the way that Bartel

(57:27):
just kind of slowly walks Mark towards the smokehouse and
kind his head. Yes, yeah, that is pretty unsettling. It
is right, but the rest of it just didn't do
a whole lot for me. Now, now, the whip, I
think is a very odd choice for a weapon, but

(57:51):
I guess it's sort of fun. And maybe since he
is a religious person he is not using a gun,
maybe he's making maybe that's some sort of a statement.
I'm not really one hundred percent sure, but yeah, I
don't know. I mean, do you have any other thoughts

(58:13):
on this one?

Speaker 4 (58:15):
Not much, but I must say, yeah, the one really
chilling thing in the whole show is, as you say,
when he's pushing Johnny Crawford towards the smokehouse. And I
had not thought of Knight in The Hunter, but you know,
immediately I could see Robert Mitcham doing that. It's just

(58:37):
it's a really good comparison if the whole episode had
been of that level. But you know, I think that
this may really be sort of indicating the where the
problems were for Packing Pot in this because now we're
twelve episodes into the second season, so that's like fifty

(58:58):
two shows, right, and you can see that that there's
interesting stuff, but they're holding back too much because of
the child situation. It is becoming that sort of awkward
kid show that that Peck and Paw described it as

(59:21):
when he left.

Speaker 2 (59:23):
Yeah, yeah, I agree, I think, Yeah, it's definitely, this
is definitely a step down and and and maybe you know,
maybe maybe Peck and Pa basically had like both feet
out the door at this point and sort of phone
this one in. But yeah, it definitely is not up to,
uh the standard that had been previously set by the

(59:45):
other Peck and Paw episodes now kind of and bringing
this towards a close, I did want to touch on
the creative differences between Peck and Paw and the producing team,
right and uh Now, I know one issue was that
Peck and Paw wanted to see Mark grow up and

(01:00:07):
change as he got older, which I think makes a
lot of sense, but I can also understand why they
didn't do that. It's kind of safer to keep the
dynamic the same throughout in a way. And then I
know another issue was from Lavin's perspective, he said Peg

(01:00:28):
and Paul was going over budget on his directorial efforts
in this series, so that was an issue. But but
can you touch on any other creative differences that they had?

Speaker 4 (01:00:39):
Well?

Speaker 3 (01:00:40):
What the.

Speaker 4 (01:00:42):
Complaint that that Peck and Pa had, which you know
you have touched on. Is the one thing that I
that I always heard was the you know, creative difference
came down to the kid and was he going to
grow And you know, these scenes that we talked about
with Mark in all of these episodes are among the

(01:01:05):
most interesting things in it because he is a smart
but inexperienced kid, but he is learning and getting better
at it, and so you can see why it would
make for a more interesting show in the long run.

(01:01:28):
You know, The Simpsons is the only show where no
kid ever grows up right, and you know, and Bart
is played by a woman in probably your fifties now,
and you can't do that on camera. The amazing thing
is how many episodes they would do. They would do
thirty nine or forty episodes a year a season, so

(01:01:50):
it was an incredible amount of stuff. So I can
see how if you're going to show him growing a
little in every episode, he's going to get mature real fast. Yes,
do forty notches in a year. But at the same time,
over time, when you look you look at an individual
episode of the series, uh, and everything he does is fine.

(01:02:14):
But if you're looking at you know, like you're two
three seasons in and you've been watching them all and
the new stranger comes to town and he and immediately
Mark befriends him and you just want to scream. Don't
you know that every stranger who comes to town is
from your dad's past and wants to kill him?

Speaker 2 (01:02:36):
Right?

Speaker 4 (01:02:37):
They just, you know, stand alone, the episodes are great,
but you know, when they are combined the kids seems
extremely dense. So yeah, but but these this was at
a time when shows were expected to stand alone, not
the characters are not to build. So I mean it's
I don't think either one was wrong, really, it was

(01:02:59):
just that they could not see eyed eye. The peck
and paw approach would have made more interesting shows, but
a lot less of them.

Speaker 2 (01:03:08):
Yes, yeah, for sure.

Speaker 4 (01:03:10):
I think that's. I think it was good for everyone
and good that they parted. But I think that he
really created, even if he isn't credited with creating it,
that what he created there about the whole relationship between
them and Micah just just grew beautifully, you know over

(01:03:37):
the however many five seasons was it?

Speaker 2 (01:03:40):
Yeah? I believe it was five? Yeah, yeah, now it
has for me. It's been a while since I've revisited
any of the later seasons of The Riflemen, so I
can't really cite specific examples of other kind of Peck
and Paw esque themes or characters. But do you think
his influence can be felt through the series after he

(01:04:02):
moved on or do you think that if there's a
pretty clear change once he was out of the kind
of creative team.

Speaker 4 (01:04:12):
Well, I think he sort of built the dynamics so
that you really almost every episode that's you know, of
a serious nature, which is like three quarters of them,
you can't help but be influenced by by the way
he set it up, set up the character of Lucas

(01:04:35):
McCain and what he will and will not stand for,
what he is capable of, and what he's not. He's
kind of like a pre Rambo Rambo. Yeah, he does
stuff that you think, Wow, that is amazing that he
could pull things off like that. But I don't think that,

(01:04:57):
you know, there was like any attempt to consciously copy
its plots, but just by creating the basic relationships of
the core characters and knowing that you would have to
bring in someone from out of town every episode, it's
sort of it had to fit into the peck and
pum mold to some degree.

Speaker 2 (01:05:16):
Yeah, I think you're right. I think I really want
to revisit some of the later episodes because it's it's
been a while, but I think that jumping back into
a later episode, I'm sure I'll feel like Peck and
Baugh's influences is definitely still still in it. Now. I

(01:05:39):
do have one last question and then that'll kind of
lead to uh to wrapping up. But what do you
think is the show's legacy in TV history and do
you think that it still holds up today?

Speaker 4 (01:05:53):
I think it holds up really very well. And you know,
you made the point there were in the fifties and
early sixties, there was anywhere between thirty five and fifty
new Western series on in prime time. Yeah, every week.
It was incredible the amount of stuff that was there,

(01:06:14):
and you think how few of them are seen again
and the quality is there. I mean, I don't think
Chuck Connors was ever an actor that people compared to Olivier,
and I'm not making a cheap shot there. I think
he was very good at what he did, but I

(01:06:36):
mean nobody said he's a great actor, but he was
absolutely perfectly effective in that role. And we don't really
know what his range was because he wasn't, you know,
offered widely different Things, but I think he was excellent
in there, and Johnny Crawford was terrific and oh gosh,

(01:07:02):
a gentleman who played Micah.

Speaker 2 (01:07:04):
Oh, Paul Fix, Paul.

Speaker 4 (01:07:05):
Fix, Thank you. They You know, the professionalism of it
holds up when an awful lot of other shows in
the same period are embarrassingly dated and corny and stiff.
I think that the idea of frontier stories that are

(01:07:26):
focused on families and particularly giving children important roles more
than say Brandon Dewilda, who's great in Shamee but he's
mostly just watching what happens, to have them involved as
pretty unusual. And I think films like Old Yeller and
shows like The Riflemen proved that it could work in
a mature, dramatic way. I know the books predated, but

(01:07:48):
I don't think that we would have ever had shows like
Little House on the Prairie, right, or The Waltons or
Doctor Quinn Medicine Woman if we didn't first have The Riflemen.
And you know there's recently, I don't know if you've
caught the it's an excellent Nicholas Cage Western The Old Way,
where his relationship with his daughter I think is very

(01:08:12):
clearly influenced by the Rifleman. I think Kevin Costner's Horizon
Part one, the kids in that are you know, frontier
kids influenced that way in Taylor Sheridan's eighteen eighty three.
I think all of these shows owe a great debt
to the Rifleman, and really did Johnny Crawford man.

Speaker 2 (01:08:33):
I actually I haven't seen the Nicholas Cage western. I
actually haven't watched a recent western a while, but I
will have to track that down. It's called, as you said,
it's called The Old.

Speaker 4 (01:08:43):
Way, yes, and it's it's very good. And one of
the interesting things that I forget the name of the
girl who's in it, who's very good, but the old,
ordinary bad guy in it is Clint Howard, who is
Ron Howard's brother. Oh, yes, you know, the kid from

(01:09:06):
Gentle Ben and I got to talk to him about
working with this girl. And anyhow, he's somebody who always,
as a kid in westerns played this kind of old
soul and a little bitty body. But it's it's you know,
I think that, Yeah, there is a direct line between

(01:09:32):
Horizon and eighteen eighty three and The Old Way and
The Rifleman.

Speaker 2 (01:09:37):
Yeah. No, I think that The Rifleman absolutely holds up today.
I mean, I'm sure there are some episodes with very
dated elements, but I think Lucas and Mark are just
great characters. And even after Peck and Paul left, I mean,
there are other great directors and great guest stars that
worked on the show. You know. Le Van Cleef was

(01:09:58):
in several episodes, and he's in one episode that with
Warren Oates, so that's definitely worth tracking down. And Joseph H.
Lewis directed a bunch of episodes, something like fifty, and
he made one of my favorite b noir movies, Gun Crazy,
and that's wonderful. Yeah, Gun Crazy is awesome. And then

(01:10:22):
Richard Donner directed several episodes. I don't know if this
is the first show, the first series he worked on,
but this is definitely very early Richard Donner work. And
Bud Bettecker directed an episode, and Ida Lupino did an
episode as well, So there's other reasons to watch The Rifleman,
you know, even though Peg and Pau's contributions were mostly

(01:10:45):
limited to the first season. All right, well, Henry, I
think that we I think we did it. I think
that we have successfully spoken about the uh PEG and
Paw episodes of The Riflemen. So do you have do
you have any other podcast appearances or Blu Ray commentaries
or anything else that you want to tell listeners about

(01:11:06):
before we sign off.

Speaker 4 (01:11:07):
Oh well, as a matter of fact, Ken Olrber just
brought out they've been bringing out a lot of Audie
Murphy Blu rays. Yes, and working with my commentary partner
ce Courtney Joyner, we just did commentary on Drums Across
the River and The Cimarron Kid. At the first Thursday

(01:11:32):
of every month, I'm on rendezvous with the writer talking
Western movies and Western novels. I write a blog, oh,
I'd say about monthly for the i NSP channel about westerns,
and of course I keep writing Henry's Western round Up,

(01:11:52):
so it's I'm all over the place.

Speaker 2 (01:11:56):
All right, Henry, Well, thanks so much. This was tremendous,
great pleasure. I hope you enjoyed this week's episode. I
really enjoyed having the opportunity to talk to Henry about
a series I've been a big fan of for a
long time, and I'm hoping that Henry will return soon
to talk about another show in the near future. Next week,

(01:12:17):
will be a little different. Instead of talking about a
movie or TV series. I'll be joined by author Mark Archuletta,
and we're going to talk about his new book, The
Real Thrilling Events of Bank Robber Henry Starr, and the
conversation will cover early Western cinema and how outlaws and
lawmen of the Old West became entertainers, some of them
even going into the film industry. And we'll talk about

(01:12:40):
the main subject of the book, Henry Starr, who went
from being a bank robber to becoming an actor and
then went back to Robbie Banks again. So it should
be very interesting and I'm sure it's something that listeners
will enjoy. Until then. If you're looking for more film
related podcasts, please check out other shows on the Someone's
Favorite Productions podcast network. Thanks for listening. Hello.

Speaker 5 (01:13:00):
Oh.

Speaker 6 (01:13:00):
My name is Kevin Tudor, and I'm one of the
three hosts of almost major film podcasts dissecting many major
indie studios in the films they release. Every week, Myself,
Charlie Nash, and Brighton Doyle discuss overlooked, forgotten or bona
fide classic indie films via studio specific mini series. We've
previously covered numerous films from artists and entertainment, Lionsgate films

(01:13:21):
and New Line Cinema titles, including The Blair Witch Project,
American Psycho, Dogville, But I'm a Cheerleader, Saw Recording for
a Dream, and Ringmaster you know the Jerry Springer film. Anyways,
we have a fun time every week and we hope you.

Speaker 2 (01:13:35):
Will join us.

Speaker 6 (01:13:36):
Subscribe to almost major wherever you get your podcasts now
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Speaker 1 (01:13:50):
Thank you for listening to hear more shows from the
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Speaker 3 (01:14:00):
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