Episode 28: The Connection Between Once Upon a Time in Hollywood and Lancer w/ David Lambert

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
You are now listening to the Someone's Favorite Productions podcast network.

Speaker 2 (00:17):
Welcome back to Tumbleweed's and TV Cowboys, the classic Western
film and TV podcast. My name is Hunter. This week,
David Lambert is back, and in this episode, we're going
to discuss Quentin Tarantino's Once Upon a Time in Hollywood
and it's connection to the short lived Western TV series Lancer.
I assume that pretty much every listener has seen Once
Upon a Time in Hollywood, but just in case you haven't,

(00:37):
I want to go ahead and let everyone know that
there will be spoilers, So if you don't want it
to be spoiled for you, go watch it and come
back later. I've also included a link to the Lancer
pilot in the episode description, which I do recommend watching,
but you don't necessarily have to see it before listening
to this episode. All right, and now we're going to
get into our conversation on Once Upon a Time in

(00:57):
Hollywood and Lancer. Well, welcome back, David. I'm very happy
to have you back, and I'm very excited that you
suggested such an awesome topic, because you a couple months
ago sent me a message after Jodn Baker passed away
and suggested we talk about The Lancer Pilot, which features
jo Don Baker as the heavy and talking about it

(01:19):
in relationship to Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, in
which DiCaprio's character Rick Dalton plays the Jodn Baker character
in kind of the fictionalized recreation of the making of
the Lancer Pilot in the movie. And I've been really
looking forward to this ever since. But before we get
into that, what have you been up to and what
are some recent or upcoming podcast appearances you can tell

(01:39):
us about.

Speaker 3 (01:41):
Uh, yeah, just making art, just posting about Westerns on
Twitter and Blue Sky and stuff. And then yeah, yeah,
I've got some somewhat recent podcast appearances. I was on
an episode of The Pink Smoke and we did a

(02:01):
very long episode all about Wyaer movies that don't have Whiaer.
So they're basically movies that are clearly based on Wider
but they changed the names and some of the details
and things, so that'd be like Warlock forty guns IgE City,
and you know, a whole slew of Westerns. And then

(02:23):
I did a few with on Wrong Reel, So we
did Winchester seventy three and The Furies together, and then
we did The Tall Tea and Ombre together, and then
I was on the Men on Film podcast and we
talked about the Missouri Break, so yeah, and then of

(02:44):
course I was on this this show talking about Westerns
that were based on episodes of television, including The hay Flake.
So yeah, I think we might be a little nicer
Tarantino this time around.

Speaker 2 (02:59):
I don't know, Oh absolutely, I know I will be
for sure. All right, well, excellent, Well, yeah, I will
be putting the links to some of your recent podcast
appearances in the description so that people can find them easily,
and I also put the the social media links in
the description as well. And I'm pretty sure everybody is
following David at this point. But if you're not, and

(03:21):
you're and you must be a fan of western's listening
to this, so you should be following him and listening
to all of the podcast appearances as well. All right,
now we are going to first get into Once upon
a Time in Hollywood and then at some point where
we'll kind of transition into the Lancer connection. So this
was Tarantina's follow up to The Hateful Eight, which you
and I talked about. I think it was five or

(03:42):
six weeks ago, and and like Once upon a Time
in Hollywood, it is also connected to a Western TV
show a little bit, and I think it's a little
more connected than some people would like to admit. But
we had some issues with The Hateful Eight, which I
originally originally love, and it went down for me on
this rewatch. But you didn't care from it from the

(04:05):
first time seeing it. So, knowing how you felt about
The Hateful Eight, were you looking forward once amount of
time in Hollywood or at this point where you're starting
to feel like maybe Tarantino's best work was behind him.

Speaker 3 (04:18):
No, I was looking forward to it. I mean, for
the most part, I I love Tarantino's movies. But you know,
he's but he can be a little hit and miss.
He can get a little indulgent, you know, Like it
feels like he sometimes will go in one direction that
gets maybe a little too indulgent, and he'll I mean,

(04:40):
actually Once upon a Time in Hollywood is super indulgent.
But yeah, it feels like it feels like he'll, like
like he did with you know, like Grindhouse, like he
can't like he was taking like the stuff he was
doing on Kill Bill and all that, and then he
just took it to what I thought was a very
self indulgent level and it didn't do well. So then

(05:01):
like he felt it felt felt like he kind of
had to like straighten up and do inglorious pastors that
I think is, you know, mostly a pretty great movie. Yeah,
and then so so I kind of just I felt
that this was gonna I was looking forward to this one,
and uh uh when it was announced, and it seemed

(05:22):
pretty pretty wild that it was like, had this whole
Manson family thing about it, and I know there was
a lot of speculation like He's going to be very
tasteless and stuff, but I always knew he wasn't gonna
get He wasn't going to do a tasteless, you know
movie about the Manson murders. That's just not his his thing.
So but yeah, so I was excited for it. When

(05:44):
I first saw it, I liked it, but I didn't
I didn't love it the first time I saw it,
just because I I didn't know what to expect and
I kind of had to get on its wavelength. You know,
when you you know your because your imagination goes like,
where's she gonna take this, Why is Steve McQueen in
the movie, Why is Bruce Lee in it?

Speaker 1 (06:05):
What?

Speaker 3 (06:05):
You know, like, uh and all and all that stuff.
So I think I thought it was gonna be maybe
a little bit more like a pulp fiction of different
like maybe different stories and like, you know, actually like
a plot line, and you know the fact that it's
so much of just like a day in the life

(06:25):
kind of hangout movie. I like, but I had to,
you know, I kind of had to to get on
its wavelength. So then when I saw it again, I
liked it a lot more. And I and I and
I do like it a lot. I love I love it.
I think it's a I think it's a great movie
for the most part. So uh yeah, he redeemed himself
after the hate pat for me.

Speaker 2 (06:47):
Oh yeah, absolutely, yeah, I was. I was definitely excited.
I mean, obviously, you know, I'm a huge Tarantino fan,
and uh so, I I'm I'm always welcoming to a
new Tarantino film. And I did have the trailer, and
for the most part, I think trailers for Tarantino movies
are pretty terrible, like especially anything released after Kill Bill,

(07:10):
like The Glorious Bastards, trailer has this terrible rock like
new metal sounding music, and it makes it look like
this amped up action movie. Yeah, which it isn't at all.
But but I do think, like within Glorious Bastards, it's
when you have a bunch of twenty minute scenes of
dialogue that doesn't really make great trailer material.

Speaker 3 (07:28):
Yeah, exactly. Everyone got gonna be like a big action
you know, he's big war epic, and yeah, most of
it is, you know, just people sitting at tables talking. Yeah,
that's great, you know.

Speaker 2 (07:40):
Yeah, and then no one thing. I was wondering. I
know that you had read the Hateful Eight script before
you saw the movie. Did did the Once Upon a
Time in Hollywood script leak?

Speaker 3 (07:49):
Like?

Speaker 2 (07:49):
Did you read it before seeing it?

Speaker 3 (07:51):
I didn't. I didn't really. I didn't really try to
look for it either, But yeah, I I do. To
be honest, I do feel reading the hay Pot before
seeing it probably hurt it a little bit for me.
But I haven't really had that issue in the past.
Like I read Gloria's Bastards before it came out. I
read Django and Chain before it came out. I read

(08:13):
the Kill Bill script. I'm not in Love with that movie,
but I don't think reading the script is what you know.
I still think it's fine. It's not a bad movie.
So but yeah, with this one, I didn't. I didn't.
I kind of didn't want to ruin it for myself,
but I don't think if I had read the script,
it would have really ruined it for me, like the
hay point, which kind of hinges on a mystery or

(08:35):
something that's really not that interesting.

Speaker 2 (08:38):
So right, yeah, now, Inglorious Bastards and Django Unchained, I
think are the only scripts that I've ever read before
seeing the movie. And then with Once upon a Time
in Hollywood, I knew that it involved the Manson family
and that DiCaprio played an actor in Brad Pitt played
his stunt double, and I'm pretty sure that's all I
knew about it. And it was funny because I mentioned

(08:58):
the last time we talked that one of my grandfathers
was a huge Tarantino fan and Pulp Fiction was his
favorite movie and he and I would always go see
Tarantino movies together in the theater, and unfortunately this is
the only movie he didn't get to see, and he
he was I think ninety five when the movie was
in theaters and then and he just wasn't up for

(09:20):
going to see it in the theaters. And then by
the time he had passed away, like before, it was
on HBO or streaming anywhere. But before I saw the movie,
I told him that the Manson family was somehow involved
with it or somehow part of the story, and he said, well,
we know the hippies aren't going to survive a Tarantino movie,
And for some reason I didn't realize how obvious that

(09:43):
was until after he said it. One more thing I
kind of wanted to get into before we get into
more general thoughts is Once upon a Time in Hollywood
is a mouthful, and so to keep from saying the
title too many times, I have a couple of friends
that are big fans of the movie, and we will
often refer to it as the ninth film because it's
Tarantino's ninth film, And if you want to do that,

(10:06):
I aim, I'll just give you permission to. I might
call it the ninth film because I refer to it.
It's just something I have referred to it as being.
But it's up to you if you want to do
the same, because just saying the title over and over
again might be a bit much.

Speaker 3 (10:21):
I'll probably just say the title and I might too.

Speaker 2 (10:25):
Well, we'll just kind of see how it goes, all right.
So you're so the first time you saw it you
thought it was okay, and then it really grew on
you the a on a rewatch. Why do you think
it grew on you so much on the second time around?

Speaker 3 (10:38):
I just think I think, like just knowing what he's doing,
you know, the first the first viewing, you're kind of
like you have preconceived notions or you know what I mean.
There's just like a certain level of excitement and you're like,
where's this going to go? And everything, and then when
it is just kind of like this day and the
life thing of you know, it just like I enjoyed it,

(10:58):
but it was just like I was expecting maybe something else.
So then knowing what to expect, I could appreciate, you know,
everything I could, just because the movie is just so dense,
you know, period detail and all this stuff. You can
kind of once you once you know kind of where
the quote unque it's not really even much of a story, right,

(11:20):
but but once you kind of know where that's going,
you kind of luxuriate in nineteen sixty nine in La
and all that, you know, And that's one of the
pleasures of the movie is just you know, the it's
it's I know, I called himself indulgent with the Hateful Ake,
but this is like, you know, hey, maybe him and

(11:40):
his most self indulgent, but in a way that worked.
Like this is his wheelhouse, right, So this is absolutely
you know, so he can do everything. He doesn't have
to worry about trying to write Western dialogue and stuff,
you know what I mean, everyone can kind of just
talk about whatever old episodes of combat or you know whatever,

(12:02):
you know, whatever, you know, my new shirt. He wants
to talk about movies in the sixties. So so yeah,
I think I think just knowing where and just like
how is he going to resolve it? And there was
like speculation. So I was friends with the guy who

(12:23):
was he was He wasn't the Tarantino's main editor. He
was the editorial department, okay, up until Jango and Chain,
and then he went to edit that terrible rhythm movie
The Man with Iron Fists. So he hasn't worked with
Tarantina since. But I remember when it was coming out,
we were kind of speculating, and he he thought he

(12:46):
was going to do another inglorious Bastards alternate history thing.
He was like, maybe maybe Steve McQueen and Bruce Lee
get involved, like you know, they get revenge on the man,
you know, like they all team up. He was, you know,
just a lot of speculation. Yeah, And and I was like,
and I was like, is he going to do the
alternate history thing again? And there was part of me

(13:07):
where I was like, ah, is that's a little I
don't know, that's a little cheap to you know, is
he going to go through every atrocity and history and
try to have you know, I mean rewrite right? But
I mean but who cares? Whatever he could he can
rip himself off, that's fine, ye know. So yeah, he's

(13:30):
he's kind of made a whole movie about all that,
you know, all this esoteric stuff. Yeah. Absolutely, But but
he makes it work you know way that you know, uh,
maybe something with a tighter plot or something, you know,
which happens in his movies sometimes where you're like, okay,

(13:52):
can these can these characters shut up for a second,
you know, right? So, but but this one it worked,
So I think it's I think it's one of his
better movies. It's not my favorite, ebiss, but I think
it's it's up there. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (14:07):
No, I went opening weekend, of course, and I was
a little nervous to start because I wasn't crazy about
and I'm still not a big fan of the scene
after the credits where Rick and Cliff or at Musso
and Franks with Schwarz al Pacino's character. For some reason,
the way that scene is edited, like cutting back and

(14:28):
forth between like Leo and al Pacino's conversation and you know,
Schwarz at his house having a Rick Dalton film festival,
and then clips from Dalton's movies. I don't know all
of that stuff is it's maybe a little I don't
know if sloppy is the right word for it, but
it doesn't have a rhythm to it, and I do

(14:51):
think the movie takes a little bit of time to
establish a rhythm and kind of find its footing. But
once it does, I do think it's awesome. And I've
rewatched Once upon a Time in Hollywood so many times
at this point, and I would actually say, I think
this is my favorite Tarantino movie. And I know this

(15:12):
is a very common comment on the movie, but it's
one that I agree with. I think it's a bit
more mature than a lot of Tarantino's work, especially post
Jackie Brown. And I think one aspect where you really
see that as in the dialogue. Like the dialogue, which
is something you know Tarantino's definitely known for, I feel

(15:33):
like it really serves the characters in this well. It's
not overly stylized, it's pretty natural. And Tarantino says that
when he's writing dialogue, he just lets the characters guide
the conversation. I don't think I totally agree with that
for each movie. I mean, like, for example, one bit

(15:54):
of dialogue that I just don't buy as the character
just guiding him is Bill's monologue about Superman and Kill
Bill Volume two. Oh yes, you can't convince me that
that's just Tarantino letting Bill riff. But but here nothing
stands out to me as being like overly written or pretentious.

(16:17):
And I love the performances, Like I think Brad Pitt
is iconic as Cliff Booth. I think it's one of
Tarantino's best characters. And I think DiCaprio is great as well.
And I think that they're great together. Like I think
it's fun to just watch their scenes where they're just
kind of like friends. I love the scene where they're

(16:40):
watching Rick's guest starring spot on the on the FBI.
Like their commentary during the episode I think is so funny.
And the humor throughout the movie I think is great.
And uh. But yeah, I just love Rick Dalton and
Cliff Booth and uh. And of course I enjoy other
characters in the movie as well, like Margot Robbie Is,

(17:00):
Sharon Tate, and I enjoy pretty much everybody who is
all the actors who play the Manson family. And I
know now there is some controversy about Bruce Lee and
the way he was portrayed, and I know there's even
a little bit of a negative reaction to the way
Sharon Tate was written. And I know like some of

(17:21):
the criticism was that she didn't have enough lines of dialogue,
which which I don't know if that's only based off
of that one press screening at Cannes, but I think
a journalist asked Tarantino why she had so few lines,
and I remember Tarantino said something like, I reject your hypothesis. Yeah,
and Margot Robbie. Yeah, she is defended the portrayal quite

(17:43):
a bit. And Sharon Tate's sister, Debortate, I know, approved
or the way she was portrayed. But yeah, but what
did you think of Margot Robbie as Sharon Tate? And
also what about the way Bruce Lee was depicted in
the movie.

Speaker 3 (17:58):
I I like Margo Robi Robbie as as Sharon Tate,
And yeah, I remember seeing that, and I and and
I know this was also kind of like we were
still in that very like hot bed of me too stuff,
you know, yes, and which which you know that was

(18:19):
you know, it was good, but there was a lot
of things and I know a lot of people are
going after him Tarantino for shitty things he's done in
the past and his association with shitty people and shitty things.
He said he didn't explain it at that press conference,
which is fine because you know, sometimes just that kind
of shit like yeah, it's not helpful, like it's just stupid,

(18:40):
but you know, why does she have more lines? But
but he has explained to other places, and you know,
he's like, I didn't want to write her as a
Tarantino character, you know, like he didn't you know what
I mean, he didn't want to have her, uh, you know,
sitting there talking about whatever vanishing point. So yeah, so

(19:01):
uh yeah, and I and and that's the thing. I
do think that he's I think it's I think he's
respectful of her, and he's respectful of the material. You know,
there was a movie that came out around the same
time as a very cheap movie with Hillary Duff where
she plays Sharon Tate, who apparently, yeah, and that was

(19:24):
like just horrible exploitation, you know.

Speaker 2 (19:27):
Oh, I'm sure.

Speaker 3 (19:28):
Yeah. So, And I also like that he he kind
of demystifies the the Manson family. He shows them as
kind of silly and stupid as opposed to these like
weird otherworldly this weird otherworldly evil you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (19:46):
Oh I love that too.

Speaker 3 (19:48):
Uh the Bruce Lee stuff, like, I get why people
are mad. I don't think he was very I don't
think he was particularly kind to Bruce Lee. I know,
he defended himself by saying that Bruce Lee was kind
of like a braggart. And there's other things, and he
cited like some guy's biography and that guy's like, oh,
I love the movie, but I didn't say that, So

(20:08):
I don't I I get why people are mad. At
the same time, it's like it's I don't know, they
treat some people treat Brucelely like he's a religious figure
or something, and it's exactly yeah, it's not h. He
wasn't making fun of like Muhammad or something, but uh.

(20:29):
And I and I also think that Terry I don't like.
I don't know if he's like not the biggest fan
of Bruce Lee, but I know he likes other martial
arts and he's kind of conduced stupid. He has these
stupid ideas that I like guards, So I can't like
Truffau or I like, you know what I mean. So
I like Sonny Cheebah. So you know, I don't know
about about uh overall portrayal, but I do think that

(20:53):
it's I mean, I think it serves a purpose in
the sense that you know, everyone kind of thinks Brucely
it was like this kind of like the greatest martial
artists or whatever. Right, So when you set up your
your stomach character who can go toe to toe with
him and you're kind of it's like exponditory in the

(21:14):
sense that now you know you know that clip booth
can kill people, you know what I mean. So, and
did they have to portray so much of like an
Ergan asshole? I don't know, maybe not, but but I
I'm I'm I was personally like offended. You know, if
you made fun of Randolph Scott, maybe I'd be upset.

(21:36):
But but and I and I and I respect that,
Like I know that the movie China wasn't gonna like
have it released over there unless they cut that scene.
And he's like, I'm not, so he's just gave it
the old Chinese market. I'm not going to cut it,
you know. So I respect that. But yeah, so I
guess it's a little disrespectful, but I'm not. I don't know,

(21:58):
I don't have any kind of sacred cow. Was like,
you can't you can't make fun of this person or
that person. So, but you made a good point about
like the dialogue is not for the for the most part,
it's not as in a way, it's not as I
don't know if the word is indulgent, because this movie

(22:20):
is so indulgent. It's but it's it's I think because
the movie is so dense in in movies, in TV,
in what Tarantino loves that it's constantly on the screen,
it's constantly being talked about, so like he doesn't have
to stop his crime movie so that everyone can you know,
sit around and talk about, you know, an old episode

(22:42):
of Green Acres or something. So so it's almost like
he's making a film in this, in this, in this
like nostalgic kind of uh fantasy world of his memories. Right,
It's like he's already living in it. So he doesn't
need to get that stuff right. It's like it's already there.
He doesn't have to, yeah, go on some stupid Superman monologue.

Speaker 2 (23:07):
So which that is a low point in Tarantino's writing,
is that monologue. And even in well we don't have
to talk about kill Bill too much, but even like
little lines like l driver saying, uh, gargantuan and she's
and she says like, I've always loved the word gargantuan,

(23:27):
but I've had like very few reasons to use it
in a sentence. And I'm glad I can hear like
stuff like that's get that out of here.

Speaker 3 (23:35):
Yeah, yeah, that kind of stuff. It feels huh, it
feels like you're hanging out with like a really annoying,
quirky person and you're like, it's okay, cool, you know
what I mean, right, Like I'm so weird. Oh I
love you know. It's just like so you're saying he
can he threads the needle, right, you can get he
can either either it works and it sings or it's

(23:58):
just like oh this is this.

Speaker 2 (24:00):
Yeah, yeah, Now with the Bruce Lee stuff like it. Uh,
you know, I'm a fan of Bruce Lee and uh.
But and I will say I'm actually a huge fan
of Hong Kong movies in general, like I love Shaw
Brothers and Golden Harvest. I'm a big Samuel Hung fan
and Jackie Chan. Uh but yeah, I can't say that
the Bruce Lee scene, like with Cliff Booth bothered me.

(24:22):
And uh and yeah, and I think to this day
it's still is not like it's still banned in China
or is it or just hasn't been released there. But
and I really like the way Sharon Tate is portrayed.
And I think the ending, I like, of course he
is doing the rewriting history thing, but in this movie,

(24:43):
I think it's it's actually like very sweet, like like
having her and her friends Survive. I actually think is
like there's something like pretty moving about it. And and
I also like the with Sharon Tate and Margot Robbie.
I love the scene where she is at the movie

(25:04):
theater watching the real Sharing Tate on screen in The
Wrecking Crew. I think that's a great scene. Although I
do think now Tarantino, you would think he knows this,
But there's posters. Of course, it's the Wrecking Crew and
the Mercenary, the Sergio Corbucci movie or the Posters at

(25:24):
that theater, and both of those movies came out in
sixty eight. They didn't come out in sixty nine, which
is when this takes place.

Speaker 3 (25:32):
Well, I think it's I think he's kind of leaning
into maybe the alternate world of it because also the
Lancer Pilot came out sixty eight.

Speaker 2 (25:43):
It was already Yeah, that's true.

Speaker 3 (25:45):
Yeah. In the book it talks about like how the
director has a feature I think with the Jil Brenner
or something coming out or oh that came out and
that came out. I think I believe it after the pilot.
And then also in the novel it talks about like
jodahn Baker how he was in a recent Magnificent Seven sequel.

(26:06):
I think Gun's the Magnificent seven is Yeah, and that
came out after wait I think wait, yeah, that came out.
I think that came out the after the Lancer Pilot.

Speaker 2 (26:16):
Yeah, I think that came out in sixty nine.

Speaker 3 (26:19):
Yeah, So so he's not It's like it's more so
like kind of his his memory of things, because uh,
I don't think he's trying to get make it totally
totally correct, Like, so there's some stuff in there. I
think he probably knew and just kind of leaned into it.
You know, he probably just really wanted to do this

(26:40):
Lancer thing for some reason, but also the Manson thing,
so he's like, well, Lancer who remembers that we can
move it up a year.

Speaker 2 (26:48):
So yeah, no, I think that makes sense.

Speaker 3 (26:51):
But you are right, like like for me knowing that
he was going to like going into it thinking he's
going to do alternate history and being kind of like,
well that's a little cheap, but like you, I think
it works. He pulls it off, and I think it's
great and I think it is sweet. So so I
can't really complain. I know a lot of people love
this movie and tell the ending because I guess it

(27:14):
is more and then it becomes that and I could
see the tone change and stuff, but it still works
for me.

Speaker 2 (27:20):
So yeah, I know a lot of people have a
problem with it being kind of like a quiet movie
and it's like Tarantino making him being kind of a
more mature filmmaker. But then it's still ending with like
extreme violence. He just can't make a movie that is
that has like zero violence in it, I think is

(27:40):
like one of the problems that people had with it.

Speaker 3 (27:43):
Yeah, and then also with that the ending is the
music they play is is Maurice Jar's music from the
Life and Times of Judge Ward being oh okay, kind
of sort of I don't know what the music is.
It's not sad, it's like a little melancholy maybe. But

(28:06):
that movie opens with the title card and don't I
can't remember the exact wording, but it's basically, this might
not be the way it happened, but it should have been,
or something to that effect.

Speaker 2 (28:19):
Oh gotcha. Yeah, I haven't seen that movie in a
long time.

Speaker 3 (28:23):
Yeah, so yeah, but it opens basically like, this isn't
what happened, this is what should have happened. And that's
essentially kind of the thesis too Once upon a Time
in Hollywood.

Speaker 2 (28:32):
Too, you know, yeah, definitely, yeah, And around this part
of the movie, like you know where Sharon Tate is
or where Margot Robbie is, that you're seeing the real
Sharonate in the movie theater. This is to me where
the movie like really picks up. It's probably like a
forty five minutes it's maybe like forty five minutes to

(28:53):
an hour of the movie where it cuts back and
forth between like Sharonate at the movies, Rick shooting Lancer
and Cliff picking up pussy Cat and taking her to
spawn Ranch. And to me, that is the other standout
character in the movie. I love Margaret Qualley. I think
she is awesome, but this whole section to me is

(29:17):
just perfect, like I think it is. This is like
Tarantino at his best. And from here I kind of
think we can start to get into the connection to
Lancer and I think, yeah, and I think we can
talk about the novelization as well.

Speaker 3 (29:32):
Yeah, I did. I do want to talk about the
alansation a little bit. Well. A lot of the things
that I did look up in in my research is,
you know, I Rick Dalton has that big poster of him,
and yes, in his driveway space. Apparently Tarantino went to
go like tour Lee van Cleef's old house or something,

(29:55):
or somebody did or and he had this huge poster himself. Yeah.
I don't know if he if somebody else did, because
I don't I can't remember the next story, but either
he saw it himself years later after leebank Cleep was dead,
he wasn't hanging out with lebank Cleep, right, or somebody
else told him. I can't remember, but he's he heard

(30:15):
about Levank Cleep hand this giant poster himself and kind
of thought that was hilarious. So that's why that's kind
of that's at the beginning of the movie. Yeah, yeah,
Once upon a Time in Hollywood. It's it's it's great.
The Damian Lewis is Steve McQueen. He looks just like him.
He doesn't have the voice though.

Speaker 2 (30:34):
No, he doesn't have the voice, and that is that
is kind of a bad That's a low point in
the movie. I that you you could just have them
at the Playboy Mansion partying and just drop what he says, like, yeah,
she was engaged to him. She flew over here to
make a movie with him. I mean that that could go.

Speaker 3 (30:58):
It doesn't feel it doesn't feel like Steve McQueen. You know,
it doesn't. It doesn't I don't know. It doesn't feel
like something he would say. It feels like it should
just be more so in dialogue to Gossiping, not here's
a speech about this guy. Like to me that brings
me back to my complaint one of my biggest complaints

(31:19):
about The Hateful Eight, which is that a character will
just point to another character and then explain their whole
story to someone. It it felt like a little bit
of leftovers of that, except in hate light it's much
worse because and that he's doing it right. They are
always doing it right in front of the person they're
talking about, and each character does it. But that felt like, yeah,
that feels like yeah, that feels like kind of lazy,

(31:43):
lazy Tarantino. Also, they can't they put Bruce Lee. They
have him with his seventies hair even tho it's supposed
to be the sixties. That's fine to recognize him, But
I'm like, why didn't they have Steve mcquin with his
like potato head haircut, you know, like that big fluffy
here he had like in like one movie. I don't know.
It's like, if you're gonna do Bruce Lee as his

(32:05):
most iconic because you could he looks just like Steve McQueen,
but with that hair, you you're almost like, is that'
supposed to be Steve McQueen. It's more like his turtleneck
is doing the work.

Speaker 2 (32:16):
Yeah, the hair is definitely off, because I mean, this
is the air. I mean, this is I mean sixty nine.
I don't know what Steve McQueen movies came out. I
think Bullet was sixty eight, and he definitely didn't look
like that in Bullet.

Speaker 3 (32:29):
Yeah, he probably had it on that time. But it's
just who cares. It's it's a dumb thing to say.
It's not even a complaint really, but it's just you know,
he gave Bruce Lee later hairslely more recognizable, right, but
but but you know whatever. But yeah, it's it's uh,

(32:50):
despite despite its flaws, it's I think it's great. I
love it.

Speaker 2 (32:54):
Oh yeah, me too. All right, now, I'm going to
give a little bit of background on Lancer. I don't
know how much background is really necessary, but I have
some of it, and if you have any additional background
in anything you want to add, feel free. It was
a short lived series. I mean, it just ran for
two seasons. It's just fifty one total episodes. And by
the time it was created, I think in nineteen sixty eight,

(33:17):
like Western TV shows were really already kind of on
their way out. I mean, the only Western series from
the late sixties that I can think of that ran
for more than a couple of seasons was The High Chaparrale.
Everything else that I thought of was that I could
think of was one to two seasons. And Lancer was
created by Samuel A. Peoples. And he wrote episodes of

(33:38):
a lot of classic Western TV shows, like he wrote
episodes of One to Dead or Alive, Tales of Wells Fargo,
and he wrote actually a really good episode of The
Rifleman called The Angry Gun, which Vic Morrow is the
guest star of. And he created a couple other Western yeah,
a couple other Western series. He created one this sounds
absolutely horrible, but he created one called Frontier Circus about

(34:01):
a circus that travels throughout the West in the eighteen eighties.
That only ran for one season. And I'm assuming that
the quality is pretty poor. And he created another series
that ran for one season the year before Lancer, and
it's called Custer, which starred Wayne Mander, who plays Scott

(34:22):
Lancer in the series Lancer. And this pilot episode was
written by Dean Reisner, and I think he's probably best
known for collaborating with Don Siegel and Clint Eastwood, Like
he co wrote Coogan's Bluff play Misty for Me, Dirty
Harry and Charlie Verrick, and he worked on a bunch
of Western TV shows, I mean, like everyone from this era.

(34:44):
And we'll get into the rest of the cast and crew,
like at least for the pilot episode. But I've only
seen one episode of Lancer. Have you seen any other episodes?

Speaker 3 (34:52):
No, I've only seen the I've only seen the pilot
all the way through, Okay. I I kind of just
kept it playing. And so there was an episode, it
was episode twenty two called the Not and that one
had a very young Martin Sheen and Tom Scarett. Oh okay,

(35:16):
and that one was interesting, which we'll get into with
the novelization and stuff too, Because the pilot of Lancer
is you know, setting up the sons going back to
the father and all that and the stakes are essentially
this this villain played by Joe Don Baker keeps wrestling

(35:39):
the cattle and all that. We can get into the
actual plot later, but there's no there's no there's no
kidnapping in it or anything like that. And a difference
between the movie and the show is that in the
show there's this character, this female character who is not

(36:00):
related to the Lancers but lives with them, and her
father's I don't know if he's the one that's killed
at the beginning of the episode or what. I can't remember,
but but she's, you know, she's essentially like a surrogate sister. Yeah,
and but she's much older than in Lancer, where she's
you know, this eight year old girl is playing her.

(36:22):
But in that episode she does get kidnapped and held
for ransom, and Martin Sheen is like the only one
that's like sympathetic to her and starts falling in love
with her and all that, so that it doesn't really
come up in the Once upon a Time in Hollywood
movie so much. But it seems I don't know if

(36:43):
that episode if a mix of the two episodes. I
don't know how common these kidnapping type plots are on
old Western shows, but they seem to be kind of common. Yeah.
But anyway, that was interesting because that one just came
up and I was like, oh, this is actually that
whole section where the girls kidnapped by the uh, you know,

(37:06):
the villain. Uh. It seems it seems kind of inspired
by that, especially in the in the novelization, which goes
further into that aspect we can get into. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (37:19):
Yeah, Now the series, so I am not you know,
I'm not really aware of the series reputation at all.
I know that it has a similar setup to something
like Bonanza. I mean, both shows are about families, you know,
who are on a ranch, like defending their ranch and
uh and Bonanza has you know, more than just that

(37:40):
and and I'm assuming Lancer probably has more than that
as as well. And it's probably Lancer like just being
created later in the sixties, it's probably like a more
mature show than Bonanza. But yeah, and then the the
star of the series was James Stacey, and he plays
Johnny Madrid and once upon a Time in Hollywood James

(38:01):
Stacey is played by Timothy Oliphant. And now I did
kind of like Schwarz with Rick Dalton. I had a
little bit of a James Stacey TV festival and it
was very much inspired by Tarantino's novelization of the movie Yea,
and he talks quite a bit about James stas Stacey

(38:22):
in the novel. I think there's even a chapter just
titled James Stacey. And then once upon a Time in
Hollywood they refer to him as Jim Stacy, but he
mentions the role. He played in a two part Gun
Smoke episode from the thirteenth season, and for some reason,
only part two is on this streaming service called Pluto TV.

(38:44):
I don't know why part one's not available, but I
couldn't find it. But I did enjoy the episode and
I thought that James Stacey was pretty good in it.
And then I watched an episode of Have Gun Will
Travel that he was in and it was It was decent,
but nothing special. But I watched a late episode of
gun Smoke he was in from season nineteen and it's

(39:05):
episode seven. It's called The Widow and the Rogue, and
it's excellent. It is a great episode of gun Smoke.

Speaker 3 (39:14):
What era of gun Smoke is like late sixty Is
that before Lancer or after.

Speaker 2 (39:18):
It's after so I think it's seventy three, so this
is the next to this is like season twenty is
the final season of gun Smoke, so it's the next
next to last season. And Stacy's really good in it.
He's kind of like a criminal with a heart of gold.
And it looks really great, like it's definitely been there's

(39:41):
definitely like an HD scan of it. It looks great
on the streaming service. And yeah, and all twenty seasons
of gun Smoke are on Pluto TV except for this
one episode. Part one of the Vengeance is not on there.
But when when Tarantino writes about gun Smoke in the
novelization he mentioned, he mentions that James Arnest was hardly

(40:02):
in the series after a certain point because he just
didn't want to work, and he never really worked outside
of Gun Smoke during its run. And it's funny because
in this episode from season nineteen, James Arnest shows up
at the end and says one word. He just says festus.
That's all that he contributes to the episode. And I

(40:23):
just thought that that was really funny. And there's like
a lot we could get into with James Stacy, especially
regarding his personal life. I don't know if we want
to go too much into that. We can if you
think we should, but.

Speaker 3 (40:39):
I mean, I don't know, we can't get into it.
But it's a little messy. They show me they at
the end of this, they show him ride away on
his motorcycle and he ended up, you know, getting hit
by a drunk driver while he was on a motorcycle.
His girlfriend was killed, he lost a leg. Yeah, and

(41:03):
then later on he molested an eleven year old or something. Yeah,
And there's, uh, I don't know, there's something very it's
there's something there's I don't know. I don't know what
if Taredy was trying to make a point or or
or if it's just that there's so many people in

(41:24):
old Hollywood that were just dirt bags, you know. But
I know that he got in trouble. You know, before
this came out from an old Power Stern interview and
he was talking about Roman Polanski and what he did,
and he kind of portrayed it like she was a
party girl and all this, like it was very flipping

(41:46):
and horrible, and he apologized for it and everything, but
it was just and and obviously with his you know,
Bud Harvey Weinstein kind of you know, uh, getting in trouble. Uh,
it was, I don't there's a lot of it weird.
I don't know what weird, but interesting things in the movie. Uh,

(42:11):
and especially in the novelization where you know Pussycat, is
that the character's name Mark Margaret Quality's character. Yes, that
gets way graphic in the in the novelization, yeah, it
really does. But but you're also like, well, okay, why

(42:31):
are we getting this descriptive here? You know, the characters
supposed to be at her at her age and then
also the character of what's what's the actor Julie Julie
Butters or Julia Butters. Yeah, and that in the novelization
is it's number one. There's a scene where she jumps

(42:53):
up on James Stacy's lap and is talking, you know,
and I'm like, oh, I don't like that knowing Yeah,
and just sort of this thing where she's talking about
their character motivations and how they kato that his name?
How do they say it? In the in the Lancer episode,
it's day party but uh, and he says to Keith,
think it's pronounced Dakota, right, But she is, you know,

(43:18):
she's like keeps like pushing him that they're in love.
You know, like the characters might actually be in love
and all, you know what I mean, all that kind
of stuff, and it's it's weird, and I don't know
if he's like I don't know if he's trying to
go to people, like like you said with the I
don't know if we want to get to the conversation

(43:39):
now or what or or after we talk about Lncer.
But like with the character of Cliff Booth, you were
saying before we started recording about like it makes it
clear that he murdered his wife, that he had he
you know, he was like a dog fighting guy, that
he was a pimp, that he's got away with all

(44:01):
these murders and stuff, and you know, and that's fine.
You kind of get an idea that he, you know,
he's a little bit of a shady guy. But it's
he's at least in the novelization, he seems to be
maybe goating his critics in a way. It's a lot

(44:23):
more the novelisation is a lot more nasty in some ways.

Speaker 2 (44:29):
Yeah, And you know, he kind of talked about maybe
was on Pure the Pure Cinema podcast I can't remember,
but he talked about kind of the difference between writing
for a movie and writing for a novel, and he
said with a like, with a movie, controversy can like

(44:51):
kill a movie, But with a novel controversy, can you
get a book to more readers? Basically? And so I
I kind of wonder if he was like, Okay, I'm
gonna really push the envelope here because I've just released
this huge movie and you know, so people will probably
buy fans will buy the novelization, but maybe it needs

(45:14):
to be to be talked about more. Maybe I need
to kind of push some elements that will just get
people talking about it. I don't know for sure that's
what his intention was, but there is there is some
weird stuff in the novelization, like with James Stacy. He
there's a line where he says something like James Stacy

(45:36):
had like an edge to him, like somebody who could
end up in jail. And there's something like knowing, of
course that James Stacy did end up molesting somebody like
decades later. I think this happened in the nineties. There's

(45:56):
something kind of gross to me about writing that line
into the book, like taking place at a time before
like James Stacey had you know, been in the accident
and you know his girlfriend had died. I don't know,
did that rub you the wrong way at all or
just stand out to you as being kind of weird

(46:17):
he would include that detail.

Speaker 3 (46:21):
Yeah, yeah, Yeah, it's like, yeah, it's weird because it's
like he's like, I don't know if he's skirting a
line to be to be controversial or because one thing
that he does make clear in the movie and the
novelization when like Cliff finds out or suspects and then

(46:41):
you know, de deuces that Margaret Cauley's characters underage. He's like,
I'm not going to do it, So like he's kind
of underlining these characters don't do that. Yeah. The novel
the same thing, where the girl seems to have a
crush on Rick Dalton then is trying to you know,
it seems like she's kind of pushing it and this,
and he's like, no, I'm not cover like not comfortable
with that. So it's like in a way he's sort

(47:03):
of by getting to that edge, he's allowing the characters
to draw the line that they don't do that kind
of stuff. But do we need that? I don't know.
It feels I don't know. I don't I don't know
what he's doing. Should we sure? Do you want to
talk about the novelization? I want your thoughts on it.

Speaker 2 (47:20):
Well, I'm trying to think if if we want to
get a little more into Lancer first, Yeah, let's do yeah.
So uh so yeah, so I guess, well we kind
of talked about, uh, James Stacy in general, but like,
what did you think of like what did you think
of Timothy Oliphant's portrayal of him in the movie and

(47:41):
kind of just that character.

Speaker 3 (47:44):
Uh, I mean I thought I thought it. I mean,
I don't I know James Stacy's stuff, but I'm not
like James Stacy expert, you know. Yeah, but uh it
was fine. It feels like he was uh because he's Tarantino,
he could get pretty you know, he can get that
necessarily big name actress. But you know it's pretty solid

(48:06):
actors at the smallest of roles, so you know, uh
like Mary and all these other guys. And I think,
at least according to the novelization, I think Scoop McNary
is kind of supposed to be playing Bruce Dern, even
though he's not in that Lancer episode. Oh okay, I
think they said that in the novelization. I could be wrong. Yeah,

(48:28):
I don't do that. I like some of the stuff
in the novel about how they passive aggressively kind of
insult each other.

Speaker 2 (48:35):
Like, yeah, I like that too, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (48:36):
That's that stuff is fun. What I thought was interesting
about the show the episode of Lancer things in it
that I that I that he that Tarantino doesn't recreate
or doesn't include in the novel in his novelization, or
at least or changes that I felt was like felt
it was very like spaghetti. Well you could you could

(48:58):
see where Italian Western started kind of bleeding in two
in the American ones. Yeah, so I thought was what
was one of the things that was interesting, at least
in the in the in the TV episode was the
introduction of of Johnny Madrid, James Stays's character, where he's

(49:20):
going to be executed by some Mexicans. You know, Yeah,
it's clearly it's clearly the same hills. It's it's like
the same hills where the other the though I think
the whole episode was shot or not, the whole episode
but a lot of the episode was shot in uh Carmel,
uh In, which is like a very nice, beautiful California

(49:41):
town that Clint Eastwood actually became the mayor of uh
for a certain amount of time. But yeah, you could
clearly tell this isn't Mexico. They're all just by a
tree that you know, it's very cheap looking but that.
But he's about to get executed, and then right in it,
the guy summoned to him and pays the the Mexican

(50:02):
executioners off. That felt very much like something you see
in a spaghetti western, or at least like a watered
down version of it. It felt like something you would
see in the Mercenary or Compagnio's or something something franco'neero,
Sergio Carbucci. What you know, They there's always a scene

(50:23):
where they're about to get executed by a firing squad
and they dig a hole, they dig a tunnel and
the character falls through or they do what wacky wacky stuff.
So uh So, I thought it was funny that he
didn't even like in the novelization, he doesn't even include that.
It's just he gets a telegram or something. Right, So,
but I thought the overall I thought the episode was

(50:46):
was solid. It wasn't it wasn't amazing, but you know,
I found I found it entertaining. You watch it and
you see the petet, but I don't know if it's
fully uh realized, you know. Yeah, but I liked that

(51:11):
what what is the what is the old guy's name?
What is the old Lancer? Andrew Duggan.

Speaker 2 (51:15):
Yeah, yeah, he plays yeah Murdoch Lancer.

Speaker 3 (51:18):
Uh. I like that he's portrayed as as as like
kind of gruff and I'm unsympathetic, you know, like he
specifically says to sounds like this land is is like yeah,
he's like this is the best thing ever, Like this
isn't the best thing God ever created? Or so he
says some kind of line where it's like what about
the sun man? So I liked that dynamic of him

(51:42):
being a bit of a bastard. But I felt that
that that could have been that could have been maybe
leaned on a little bit more. It just it, you know,
like I I felt that there could have been a
more interesting dynamic between them. I don't I think that

(52:03):
Wayne Maunder's character is whatever.

Speaker 2 (52:07):
Yeah, he's kind of dull.

Speaker 3 (52:09):
Yeah, he's he's he is dull. But I like James
Stacy and it I like James Stacy's characterization. It just
it feels like it wants to go a little further
than it does with some of the you know, the
conflict or it feels like there's things that maybe should
continue and I don't know if they do continue throughout

(52:30):
the show, but like the resentment that he has towards
his father and stuff, it gets resolved pretty easily where
the girl's just like, no, he was sad she left him,
you know, right, and at the same time you also,
I mean you you know, but but while you're watching it,
I don't ever really fully buy that, Uh, Johnny Madrid

(52:55):
is gonna join up with Jodn Baker again. I don't it.

Speaker 2 (52:58):
Donh yeah, me neither.

Speaker 3 (53:00):
It feels like they're trying to like, oh, will he
won't he? But it's like they don't. They don't. They
don't push him far enough in that Joe Don Baker
direction to make that in any way I think suspenseful
or once again, he's a hero, he's not actually going

(53:20):
to do that, But it just feels like they could
have leaned on that more. You just it's it said
some things that get resolved very easily that you go, well,
should this be a running thing in the show, are
you guys anyway?

Speaker 2 (53:35):
Yeah, And it's tough because in this era, they're they're
like having a you know, so the majority like of
series that are on TV are episodic, and so any
conflict is introduced and resolved within an episode. Like there's
very few and unless there's like a part one and

(53:55):
a part two yea, because TV shows back then really
weren't serialized except for like soap operas, So so conflicts
are introduced and resolved, you know, within fifty minutes or
thirty minutes of course if it's a shorter episode. So

(54:16):
so yeah, which is which is a problem I think
with some series, like with some series having kind of
a different story each week, it really works. But like
introducing a dynamic like this which should be interesting and
one that you would like to see continue throughout a series.
Since they do resolve it so quickly, it kind of

(54:36):
is it's it's a little bit of a bummer, but
but yeah, I agree. I did like Murdoch Lancer. I
like that character, and I do think that we should
talk about Jodan Baker because he is, of course the
character who like Leo, you know, plays that character in

(54:58):
the Once Upon a Time in Hollyoo would and I didn't.
I never would have thought that they could look so similar,
like I think of them as being so different looking.
And you actually have a post on Twitter about Lancer
Almost upon a Time in Hollywood with photos of them

(55:21):
that are kind of like the photos are like side
by side, and it's amazing how much they've made Leo
like look like Joe Don Baker. And this was actually
this was the first of three appearances of Joe Don
Baker on Lancer. He was in two other episodes. Yeah,
and this is really the point where Tarantino does use

(55:47):
not necessarily dialogue, but he does use a couple scenes
that are similar to the Lancer pilot.

Speaker 3 (55:56):
Oh yes, yeah, oh yeah. But yeah, just real quick
about the thing about Johnny Madrid, like resenting his father, huh,
the thing that it feels like that's baked into the premise.
So that's why it feels like weird that it gets
resolved so quickly, not that you would necessarily want him like, uh,
you know, every episode he's like a vacillating between wanting

(56:19):
to kill his father or not. But it feels like,
once that is resolved, what is your show now? It's
just this guy. It's just these two sons and their dad.
I don't know. I haven't watched it, so I can't say,
but it's just that's why it's just like it feels
like that is the the interesting hook because otherwise, why
you know, yeah, what makes this what really makes this

(56:41):
different from the million other westerns on at the time, right?
But but yeah, no, yeah, Jodahn Baker, Yeah it is.
It is shocking how much he looks like uh DiCaprio,
because yeah, they don't. They're two very different actors. Oh yeah,
and uh yeah you almost. You always better if like

(57:03):
Tarantino just was like watching Lancer one day, He's like
that looks like Leo, you know. But but but the
other thing that is kind of funny, not to insult
the Cabri. You could definitely see the difference even though
he's playing an actor, acting like Jodahn Baker, just his voice,
just his twang, you know what I mean. He doesn't

(57:23):
have to do much, right, He's already commanding, you know.
So when you see like DiCaprio trying to be like
a heavy you know, and he does he doesn't have
the voice, he doesn't you know, he just but uh,
that's one of the things that feels very different is
there's there I don't know, I would say acting styles,

(57:44):
but just uh, you know, one guy see one jo
with Jodahn Baker, it seems effort lives. Yeah. And that's
also interesting too because uh, he he didn't pick like
a like an Ed Burns or something. He didn't pick
like an like having Rick Dalton fill in for like

(58:06):
an actor whose you know, career is kind of waning
and as dow guest starring because jod On Baker was
on the come up, you know at this time. So
so it's it's a uh so it's a it's a
bit different there. And I was recently when I was
at Nottsbury Prom when I was at the hotel. You

(58:27):
have to just you know, you you know, go through
the channels that they have available, and there was a
Joda on. There was an episode I think it was
Hot Chaparral. Uh is that what the one with leaeve Erickson. Yes,
And in that one it's Edmund O'Brien and he's the
leader of a gang. And then jodahn Baker is like

(58:50):
he's second in charge and they like take a bank
hostage or something. But that one was interesting because joed
o onn Baker has like and so like in the
movie and in the novelization they talk about the wig
that they give Rick Dalton to give him hippie hair. Yeah,
and jod On Baker does not really have that much
but otherwise looks very close. He doesn't really have his

(59:10):
hair that long. But in this episode of High Chaffer
he had like no phasial, just long hippie hair. It's
very interesting, but it was. It seemed like a pretty
solid episode. But but uh, yeah, people are always shocked
because they don't, uh you don't really think about Joe
don Baker and Leon order DiCaprio uh in the in

(59:33):
the same breath there.

Speaker 2 (59:34):
Yeah, and like you said, they like you said, they
both they perform it very differently. I mean, Joe Don
Baker you know, is like you said, effortless and Leo
is like he's working so hard and and I feel like, uh,
DiCaprio is doing like a little bit of a Kurt
Russell impression, like the way he says, uh, you know,

(59:56):
like fetch your fiddle and her bow and entertain entertain
my guest like there's something like kind of Kurt Rustley
about it. Did you feel like.

Speaker 3 (01:00:03):
That at all? Uh? I mean I didn't. I didn't
think about that when I was watching it, but I
could probably see that. I like that just jumping back,
I like, I know we can. I complained in the
eighth lade about Tarantino just popping up as a narrator suddenly. Yeah,
I like, I like it in this movie where there's
like I think what like two times maybe maybe three

(01:00:25):
at the most, where Kurt Russell just comes in and
it gives like a voiceover that's how fucking lie he's
drunk driving or whatever. Yeah, And I think that works here,
just like how in Glorious Bastards when Samuel L. Jackson
just suddenly has a voiceover real quick talking about flammable
film prints. That works there because it's not Tarantino's voice.

Speaker 2 (01:00:45):
Yes, that that definitely helps.

Speaker 3 (01:00:48):
Yeah, Well, what did you think about the Lancer episode?

Speaker 2 (01:00:51):
I think the Lancer episode is okay. I wasn't crazy
about it. I think that I did like James Stacey,
and I liked the Dad. I think I don't know.
Sometimes you with a series, it's very hard to tell

(01:01:13):
the quality based on one episode. I think for the most.

Speaker 3 (01:01:18):
Part, especially a pilot. Pilots are always kind of the worst.

Speaker 2 (01:01:23):
And I think that fifty minute series like like hour
long series at this point. I mean, it's like some
shows I think made the transition from being thirty minutes
to an hour and it's successful. But some series that
started off an hour, I almost wish they had started

(01:01:43):
off at thirty minutes and kind of perfected their storytelling
there before going an hour, because it seems like an
hour runtime, like like I mean it's fifty minutes because
of course there was you know, ten minutes of commercials,
but it at fifty minutes, I actually felt a little
long to me, or I felt like I would start

(01:02:03):
losing focus at some point.

Speaker 3 (01:02:06):
Yeah, I agree with you. I mean I remember like,
like you know, like things like this, like this The
Answer Show was like on for two seasons, right, yes,
And so I was like, oh, I had two seasons,
and then I was like, wait, how many episodes are?
And it's like, how like there's twenty something episodes in

(01:02:27):
the seasons back then? Right, there's fifty one episodes, right? Right?

Speaker 2 (01:02:30):
Yeah, So yeah, there are fifty one episodes, and I
don't know. I'm actually gonna look it up real quick anyways.

Speaker 3 (01:02:37):
But the point I'm I'm making while you look that
up is with like thirty minute episodes of like Western
TV shows, like like The Westerner or some others, you
oftentimes are like, you're like, oh, I wish it had
like ten minutes, Like it feels like The Speace Spot
is like forty five minutes, like short, but has a

(01:03:00):
little bit of room to breathe or things to develop.
Sometimes the thirty minute ones you're like, Okay, that was
that was cool. You kind of so, but I agree
with you, especially considering that they are doing twenty three
or whatever twenty five episodes twenty five hour long episodes

(01:03:21):
a season, and it's like, wow, that's a lot. Yeah,
and it does feel like there's a bit of wheel spinning,
Like it feels like this episode, I don't it didn't
need to be in an hour if it or the
hour could have been used better. Maybe it's just like

(01:03:41):
there's just some things where, you know, like the Wayne
Maunder character Scott Lances, right, that's his name. Yeah, when
he's like shopping for clothes and he gets beat and
then later at James, Stacy doesn't interfere, and then later
they're there and they have a fist fight with the
water and there's just like stuff like that where you're like, ah,

(01:04:04):
this this, you know, this could be tighter. They could
have figured this out better. But I also get it,
they've got twenty five more hour long episodes. They really like,
h we could just put a fistfight here. We'll put
a you know, we'll put a couple of things, bit
bits of action there. Yeah. It feels it. Yeah, it

(01:04:25):
just does. Yeah it doesn't. It feels like a I
thought it was solid. It feels like a blueprint. It
feels like something that and you kind of and you
kind of get why it stuck with Tarantino because you
kind of you in his novelization, you see sort of
like him being this kid watching it and everywhere everywhere,

(01:04:49):
his imagination goes like, oh, Johnny Madrid is like just
the best character on TV. He's so porchard and he
has this crazy backstory and it's all so fascinating and
all that, and then you kind of watch it and
he's like, ah, he's he's kind of mad at his dad. Yeah,
maybe he's a little shady here. I don't know, so

(01:05:10):
you kind of you see like how much something that
Tarantino will watch like would catch his imagination and he
would build all this stuff around. It feels like that's
the way he writes this movie. He's in a lot
of ways.

Speaker 2 (01:05:22):
Yeah, and he definitely like what Tarantino is filming, like
as the Lancer Pilot is a way better script than
the actual Lancer Pilot has. Like the dialogue is is
really good, and there's you know, like definitely better you
know acting as well.

Speaker 3 (01:05:41):
The sets. The sets are way bigger.

Speaker 2 (01:05:43):
Yeah, and it's just more cinematic. I mean, I mean
like there's yeah the camera moves, so yeah, he definitely
kind of elevates it. But I and I think that
like Tarantino, like having a movie where he's showing the
making of a show or a movie. I think he's

(01:06:06):
like perfect for this, like because that sometimes well actually
most movies about Hollywood I actually tend to enjoy. But
like him doing this I think is perfect and taking
a show that nobody probably really knows about. I mean
the first time I saw the movie, I did not

(01:06:26):
know Lancer was a real show.

Speaker 3 (01:06:29):
Yeah, I think most people are pretty are not aware.

Speaker 2 (01:06:32):
Yeah, yeah, I'm trying to think. Do I don't know
if we want to if we have anything else to
say about the Lancers show. I mean, I think it's
it's okay, and I will say I included I'm including
a link to the pilot episode in the episode description.
I don't think it's necessary. Yeah, I don't think you
have to watch it to listen to this conversation. I mean,

(01:06:53):
I'm saying this an hour and fifteen minutes in, But
but I do think it's it's it's worth watching, even
if if it's just to see Jodn Baker and then
like DiCaprio made up like as that character. Oh and
another thing, Jodn Baker was in an episode of FBI
around this time as well. He was in an episode

(01:07:14):
of FBI in nineteen seventy, so maybe he's taking a
little more from Jodn Baker's filmography there with Rick also
being an episode of FBI.

Speaker 3 (01:07:25):
Yeah, I believe the one that they show in the
movie is like one that Burt Reynolds was in. Oh okay, Yeah,
if you look it up, it's like almost the one
where they're giving their commentary. Yeah, it's like almost like
I think they found the actual truck that they filmed
that and they repainted it and you actually used it.
It's like pretty like exact, an exact recreation of it.

(01:07:50):
And I do love that scene. I also live the
part where where Cliff comes home and he's they have
the I love the miniature drive through. They use miniatures there.
I love that, yeah, uh, but not drive through drive in,
drive through, driving theater and uh, he's being the dog
and he puts something on TV and then like one
of the characters is like, you know, the musicians are

(01:08:13):
you know, they're flaky or something, and then he goes like, yeah,
like I love I love like how much he uh
seems to really just get into like when he's watching
you know uh which uh which yeah, I think Tarantino
tries to develop into the novel. We'll talk about that
in a minute. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:08:34):
Yeah, and that that episode that he's Cliff Booth is
watching Mannix. Is this series that he's watching when when
they talk about the musician and he says, yeah, yeah,
that's an episode of Mannix.

Speaker 3 (01:08:44):
Oh okay, there were there was some I thought they
were they were in the Lancer pilot directed by Sam
want Wantamaker was an actor and then he got blacklisted
and still acted. He's like he's like one of the
gangsters or something in that Arnold movie Orraw Deal. I think, yes, uh,
And he's in a few other things, but but he

(01:09:07):
mostly directed a lot of TV stuff, and I think
he does some interesting stuff. Some interesting he gets like
nice shots and things in there. I there's like a
I like the part where they they try to be
a little graphic but they can't because of TV. So
Jodahn Baker's gang goes and like starts attacking the Mexican
ranchers or whatever that are like on Lancer's Land or

(01:09:32):
or something to that effect. And they go and they
find one guy like hang like hanging like by his
feet or something outside the barn or yeah, this quick
over and then they have to cut before you see it.
I paused it. You could see that it's a really
very fake looking dummy, but uh and uh uh, and
then they find like the lady in there. It's very

(01:09:52):
much like the Searchers like, and that's steps cool, but
it also it also feels, yeah, it feels like it
feels like it like the episode starts like becoming stepping
things up and becoming way more uh bleak or serious
in a way that doesn't you know what I mean,
like a guy getting his whole family massacred and stuff

(01:10:15):
that doesn't really have any weight to it in the
overall episode, I don't even know I did they did
they show that character earlier? Or which characters gets mad?
They're like, oh, no, we got to go like the
the Vacaro's, the Mexican Vicarroo's ride down and are like
something is being do you got to see this or
or whatever? And then they see the aftermath. Was that

(01:10:37):
a character in the show who got that was established?
Who got his family got slaughtered? Or was it just
like one of his one of his Mexican hands was killed.

Speaker 2 (01:10:47):
I don't he it was just one of his ranch hands,
but I'm not positive though.

Speaker 3 (01:10:51):
Yeah, so they it was just but they didn't really
establish the character early. I remember watching it being like, well,
who is this guy? Like what I mean, it's sad,
but I don't I don't. I don't know if he
has any scenes before he's strung up, but yeah, it's wild,
and especially where he takes it in the in the novelization.

(01:11:15):
But yeah, I mean the Lanser episode. Like you, I
was like, well, I don't think it needs to be
an hour. It seems kind of be spinning its wheels.
It never really fully like becomes engaging. But it's I
think it's solid. It's it's competently directed, it's acted well,
and there's some good actors in it. So it's not

(01:11:38):
something you need to rush out to see. But uh,
I don't know. When it comes to like Western TV shows,
it's probably it's probably gonna be more interesting than a
lot of them for people just because of his connection
with this movie. But even on its own, it's it's
a fine, solid, little, uh episode of TV. It's it's

(01:11:59):
a it's a okay little Western I like it, Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:12:03):
Yeah, yeah, it's it's not bad. Now I'm kind of
wondering because there are a couple of scenes that I
would like to talk about in the movie, Like I
want to talk about spawn Ranch, but now do you
want to go into the novelization first?

Speaker 3 (01:12:19):
Yeah? Yeah, let's put a pin in this bonn Ranch thing.
Let's talk about the novelization. Okay, okay, So do you
feel about it? All? Right? So?

Speaker 2 (01:12:28):
I well, well, one, I was really looking forward to it,
and I got it, I think as soon as it
came out and I started reading it, and I and
there are things that I that I like in it. Overall,
I wouldn't say I'm a fan. I there are some

(01:12:49):
highlights though, Like I think the chapter where Cliff Booth
gets uh, Brandy the dog his dog. Yeah, that's a
pretty strong chapter. I enjoyed that my but my least
favorite thing about the novel, well, one of my least
favorite things is what he did what he does with

(01:13:13):
Cliff Booth. It it feels like, I think, like I
told you before we started recording, like a betrayal of
that character, like thinking about Cliff Booth being like almost
like a sinophile. Like it's like Tarantino tried to make

(01:13:33):
Cliff Booth a little more like himself. I mean, I
think that there's a part of the novelization where Cliff
Booth has, like you see his list of his favorite
Curasawa movies, and there's basically a section where there's a
review of Trifo's The four Hundred Blows and then there's

(01:13:53):
you know, they talk about Cliff Booth going to movies
to see foreign to go see foreign films, in the
in the movie theaters, and based on what we get
in the movie, I just don't believe that about that
character at all. And and then also making it clear.

(01:14:16):
I mean, I think that watching the movie, you know
that he kills his wife, but they do leave it
ambiguous a little bit, but here they just straight up
say he's a he's a murderer. And that aspect of
the book I I thought I really didn't like. And

(01:14:37):
then some of the stuff the chapter where he's a
pimp in France or I think it's France, Yeah, because
I think it's like either because he's a war a
war hero also so it's I guess it's right after
World War War, World War two. I I I hated that.
I thought that was terrible.

Speaker 3 (01:14:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:15:00):
Yeah, So yeah, the Cliff Booth stuff I had like
a real problem with. And it's a bummer because in
the movie he's so awesome and and Brad Pitt is
amazing in it. What else about the book, So I
I like the chapters that are kind of like more
of like a Western novel, I enjoy I enjoyed that. Yeah,
And like I love in the movie where Cliff Booth

(01:15:22):
picks up Pussycat and takes her to Spawn Ranch. And
in the book, I think it is absurd, Like, I.

Speaker 3 (01:15:33):
Just how does it go in the book?

Speaker 2 (01:15:35):
Again, I don't so in the book, you know, he
he he picks her up. Now there is a weird
thing before he before she actually gets in his car,
a couple other cars pull over and talk to her first.
I can't remember why or like what the who those
characters were, what the point of that was, But he's

(01:15:56):
kind of waiting to pick her up. And then she
gets in the car and then they're on the highway
and while they're driving, yeah, while they're driving to Spawn Ranch,
Pussycat takes off her shorts and then takes off what
Tarantino describes as her soiled panties. And I think that

(01:16:18):
he I think she asks Cliff to finger her. Yeah,
it's something like that. And it's just it's and I
understand like with the novelization, you can't do a rewrite
of the screenplay. You kind of have to offer something different,

(01:16:42):
But this is not what you should be offering as
the difference, because.

Speaker 3 (01:16:48):
It is.

Speaker 2 (01:16:51):
It just feels, well, like we talked about it, it
feels like he's trying to push the envelope because he
maybe has more freedom too in a novel where he
has no intention of filming any of this.

Speaker 3 (01:17:07):
Yeah, it's it's weird how graphically sexual the novel is,
because his actual movies are I want to say sexless,
but they're you know what I mean, they're they're you know,
he's not a movie he's not a director that, like
you know, has a lot of sex scenes in his

(01:17:29):
movies anything I can think of it, like Robert de
Niro and brist Fawn and Jackie Brown, which is what
I would call that much of a sex scene. So, uh,
yeah it is.

Speaker 2 (01:17:40):
And even in the movie Once upon Time in Hollywood
at the Playboy Mansion, there's no nudity. And there's even
in Kill Bill Volume two. Oh you know, well there's
this Bud works at a strip club, but I guess
when he arrives to work there, it's not open yet,
but there's like a scene in a strip club I
guess where there's no nudity either.

Speaker 3 (01:18:01):
Yeah, so it's it's weird. Yeah, it's weird. I don't
know what. I don't know. I don't know why it's
okay that he doesn't include nudity, but it is weird
considering how or even if scripts alvid nights will be.
It's very I don't know, crass, like in terms of
describing sexual stuff that he doesn't either necessarily film or

(01:18:24):
or what so, I don't, yeah that stuff, it's weird.
I I don't think the novel's very good. I didn't.
I didn't hate it. I enjoyed reading it. It's very
much written like a script. It's it's written in present
tense like a script. Yeah, and I'm like you, there's

(01:18:47):
stuff about I know that with the see I love
the I love the clip Booth character. I love how
Brad Pitt plays him. I've never been like the biggest
Brad Pitt fan. I've never thought he was like bad.
But this is where this is the first movie where
I was like this totally. The character, his acting, everything

(01:19:08):
like vibes in a way that just works. It's great.
I think it's it's a it's a great he's a
it's a great character. And I wonder so I know
that when he was you know, when he wrote it,
he was thinking about, you know, these dirty kind of
spilsy stuntman. Uh. That's why he didn't initially want a

(01:19:31):
cast Brad Pace like this guy, he needs to be
kind of like this more of a crusty you know,
not this hands of beautiful guy. Right, So I wonder
what once he you know, once he cast Brad Pitt
and all that, you know, he's like, I can't believe
I ever thought that this is perfect, right, So I wonder,

(01:19:54):
but I wonder if that clip with stuff is like
like the leftover either idea from his script or you
know what I mean, where he's less of Uh, he's
clearly he's clearly the most sympathetic character in the film,
outside the fact that he maybe killed his wife. Yeah,
you know, he's like yeah, he's like self sacrificing. He's like, yeah,

(01:20:14):
he's like the best friend you wish you had. Right.
So I also get why in a novel or a novelization,
when you don't have like Brad Pitt in that charisma,
you know what I mean, like it might not jump
off the page like that. So I don't know if
this stuff is like remnants of that. I'm not I'm

(01:20:36):
not as like upset about making him less sympathetic. I
wonder if that was terror. I don't I wonder if
it was either stuff that's left over or once realizing
everyone loves his character, Tarantino going for sure, but what
about this? You know, I don't know, But that's also

(01:20:58):
another interesting aspect of like kind of the movie with
these abusers and stuff, you know, and then he casts
what if Emil Hirsh what's this guys? What's the what's
the guy? What's his name?

Speaker 2 (01:21:09):
Yeah, Emil Hirsch plays j C.

Speaker 3 (01:21:11):
Bring, Yeah, and he as something where he attacked some
lady at a party years ago. Like there's a lot
of screwed up things about it, but the idea of
him being kind of the zen guy, he's you know,
he wants he likes movies. He wants to see the
horny European movies. He likes the foreign films because they

(01:21:34):
seem more you know, less bull of bullshit or whatever,
you know, like the Italian neorealism stuff Like I get that,
but like you, I go, all right, you know what
I mean? And yeah, it it feels like this is
just terror. It feels like, yeah, it feels like you're
reading cinema speculation right during those poetry like all right,

(01:21:58):
I don't know. And then also it was gonna make
that movie? What was it? About the film critic or something.
Oh and then he decided not to. Yeah, yeah, it
feels like that. It feels like you're seeing the genesis
of that, you know what I mean? And uh, and

(01:22:19):
this novelization especially.

Speaker 2 (01:22:22):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:22:22):
But the other but the other issue is that, you know,
like your grandpa said, the hippies won't survive with Tarantino movie.
And I know a lot of people criticize this film
when it came out as kind of being like reggressive.
You know, it's sort of like this old dinosaur of Hollywood,

(01:22:43):
this whole old kind of system where that was really
screwed up and everything, and he sees longing for that.
And you know what I mean, Right, I don't I
don't necessarily. I mean, I know that there's part of that,
but I don't necessarily think that like Tarantino hates hippies.
I think he kind of. I think he in a

(01:23:04):
way a lot of ways, will you know, sort of
take on the not take on, but his movies, if
they are about these characters, will Albendimes have those perspectives, Right,
Rick Dalton isn't like if he's That's why I don't
think that because Saratina's in the seventies is his favorite
decade from movies. So I don't think he's like, let's

(01:23:24):
lament that that, you know, the hippies or this, you know,
this whole counterculture movement took over the movies because he
loves those movies. He loves that era, right right, But
these characters would love that, you know what I mean.
So he's so he's taking that kind of perspective, I believe.

(01:23:44):
I don't think he's pining for a more regressive age.
I don't know. Having said that, when he starts writing
like long passages about movie opinions, I'm like, just you, you know,
like this is you just defying your tastes and saying, yeah,
well there's this veteran who thought these movies were more real,

(01:24:06):
you know, and that's fine, but you're like, uh, like
you said, it's like, are you really trying to explore
what this character would be watching or is this just you?
I don't know, he's creating, he creates a character, seeing
he can say he could say clip booth, how the
top ten Krosa was, I don't know, But like you,
it's like, all right, that might be a little much.

Speaker 2 (01:24:30):
Yeah, I mean, in the movie, like Cliff Booth wears
a Hawaiian shirt and his his trailer is full of
like Western comic books, and he's watching manics and like
eating like like Kraft macaroni and cheese. Like I just
don't buy the idea that he could be a cinephile.

(01:24:56):
And and I and like I said, the chapter with
him getting brand is really good. I don't and I
don't mind that he is a killer. I like the
idea that he is actually this really violent person who's
just kind of waiting for the perfect opportunity to be violent,

(01:25:18):
Like like at the end with Uh, it's almost like,
I mean, I don't want to comparing it to taxi
driver sounds might sound ridiculous, but it's almost like a
violent person becoming a hero, but they actually just want
to kill people and they're just violent people. He doesn't
play like that in the movie. Maybe he wants it

(01:25:39):
to be more like that in the book.

Speaker 3 (01:25:42):
I don't know. I kind of well, yeah, hey, I
mean all this stuff about about him possibly killing his
wife is like if it feels like that should be
almost enough. But the character comes off and the way

(01:26:03):
brad Pitt plays him as so charismatic and so like
Zen and stuff. So you're kind of you're just like it,
kind of you don't even really necessarily think about it,
so that when he does a novelization makes the character
wayless sympathetic. It may be a little bit of a shock,

(01:26:25):
but like I said, I don't I don't mind that.
I like. What I like about the character is that
he is, he had, He has like a he has
a code that doesn't line up with uh laws, regular laws, right,
He has a call it a friendship. He has certain

(01:26:47):
things which is and this is an aside, but the
just to jump back, a movie that came out that
was a big influence same year, big influence on Tarantino.
The wild bide that.

Speaker 4 (01:27:01):
Moved to that movie was was Roy Sickner, a stuntman
and uh but he only had the action scenes kind
of worked out.

Speaker 3 (01:27:13):
But when he took his idea to to Wayland Green
or Wallend Green, I don't know how to say the
guy's name. Uh. Green had known some stuntman and there
was one crazy stuntman who decided to hold up a

(01:27:33):
liquor store. Uh and he and everyone disliked this guy.
All the stuntmen hate this guy. He's a crazy guy,
you know, don't you know. But they had this weird
kind of fraternity. So he went and I think he
held a lick store and might killed someone too, I
don't know, but he went and testified, perjur perjured himself

(01:27:55):
to get this guy off, even though he didn't like
the guy and everyone thought he was the he's shit,
but they had this code and Green was like, why
did you do that? And he said, well, when you
side with the man, you know, you stick with him.
And even if he's like he used some swears we
won't go into. But but that became the whole basis

(01:28:15):
of kind of the wild bunch of like, is there
a higher morality? Not even a higher morality, but is
there they have a morality that isn't laws. They don't
live up to it till the end, but it's an
interesting thing. And so I don't know if there's something
people know about Stuntman, at least at this time, like
a level of like loyalty even among even for someone

(01:28:41):
that you don't like, you know, but you're part of
this fraternity guys that kind of feels like what his
character is. He's not he's not a moral character. He
is he just sticks with the dude that you know
that's his friend. Yeah, so yeah, I I I. I
don't mind him pushing back on that so much. But

(01:29:03):
at the same time, I kind of think maybe the
movie could have used Not that the movie needs it,
but if you really felt that that was necessary to
get across and the Cliff was character, maybe he could
have done a little more. Maybe he thought just suggesting
that he killed his wife was enough. I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:29:21):
Yeah, I don't know. Now. Actually, while we're talking about
Cliff Booth, I do wonder if we should kind of
talk about a couple of characters who likely inspired that character.
So when I recorded an episode recently with a writer
named Henry Park and kind of after we had finished

(01:29:45):
recording the episode, he was a guest on the Rifleman
Sam Peckinpaw episode and we were actually talking about Tarantino
and Once upon a Time in Hollywood came up and
he had mentioned that he asked if I had read
the I think the biography of the actor Clayton Moore,

(01:30:06):
who played the Lone Ranger and like the fifties TV
show version of The Lone Ranger, and I was unfamiliar
with it and Henry Park had interviewed Don Moore, who's
Clayton Moore's daughter, and she told him a story. And
it's also in Clayton Moore's autobiography about in nineteen sixty nine. Well,

(01:30:30):
first off, the Lone Ranger was shot on Spawn Ranch
and Clayton Moore had become friends with George Spawn and
in nineteen sixty nine, he hadn't seen George Spawn in
like ten years at this point, and he decided that
he wanted to take his daughter out to Spawn Ranch

(01:30:52):
and you say, you know, hello to George. And they
got there and of course the Manson family was there
and they did not treat them very well, but they
did let him go see George spawn. And at this point, Uh,
George was blind and he was talking to to George,

(01:31:15):
and he was kind of like I think he asked
like are you okay? Like like do you want these
people here? And uh and and the way he writes
it in his in his book, he says that when
he when he calls out called out to George, uh,
George spond started crying and said and recognized his voice

(01:31:36):
as being Clayton and and and and George and Clayton
asked like, are you being treated well here? And George
was just like, yeah, I'm just very lonely. You please
come back and see me again. But it But then
Dawn Moore, who Claytonore's daughters, saw Once upon a Time
in Hollywood and and she loved it. But and and

(01:31:58):
she thought that that scene she wasn't one hundred percent
sure it was inspired actually by her dad's story when
she saw the movie. But there is a picture of
the Lone Ranger in George Spond's house, which I guess

(01:32:18):
is like Tarantino's way of acknowledging it. It is kind
of Clayton Moore's story that he is drawing inspiration from
for this scene. But I thought that was a cool story.
And I wanted to kind of credit Henry Park with
telling me because I wouldn't have found out if he
hadn't mentioned it.

Speaker 3 (01:32:35):
Yeah, I wasn't aware of that either. I also love
Henry Park. He's the true esque guy, right, true, Yeah, yeah,
And there was I was mentioning to you there was
a no, there was a there, and you're aware of this,
but there was like a ranch hand slash stuntman name

(01:32:57):
well they call him Shorty Shay and he was murdered
by the family. I think they didn't find the body
till way later. And I wonder if that was something
that was in Tarantino's head. He had he had to
know of it. There's a whole I think. I know
Tarentina listens to podcasts, uh, but there's a whole series

(01:33:24):
on Karina Longworth's the you must remember this?

Speaker 2 (01:33:28):
Oh, yes, Charles Manson's Hollywood. It's awesome.

Speaker 3 (01:33:32):
Uh, And I I think Charenton is a friend of
hers too, but I'm almost certain that that there was
some influence there on this on this film.

Speaker 2 (01:33:45):
And he referenced the the book is it called Chaos?

Speaker 3 (01:33:49):
I think that's the that's the one. It's a little
bit of a conspiracy stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:33:55):
Yes, that involves Charles Manson.

Speaker 3 (01:33:57):
Yeah, Charles Manson MK ultra kind of Uh, did tests
on him or Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:34:04):
I think he mentioned reading that book and kind of
being inspired or I don't know if he was inspired
by necessarily, but he it was something that he at
least really enjoyed.

Speaker 3 (01:34:14):
Yeah, well that's a well, that's one of the things
about that that that you must And that's a good podcast.
I some of it I don't like so I get
annoyed by her sometimes, but I do too. But that
what was that What was interesting about that is that
it was like not trying to so much be a

(01:34:35):
picture of the Manson family, but trying to be a
picture of La Hollywood at that time. So I'm almost
certain that influenced him. Like I know, his cinema speculation
book is sexual on taxi Driver. I know he got
that from this podcaster Amy Nichols. Okay to critic caster.

(01:35:01):
She's interviewed him sometimes, but this he has this whole
section about how Travis Bickgel isn't actually he isn't actually
a Vietnam veteran, which is so stupid. It's something she
suggested somehow. It's like one of his favorite movies. But
he went along with it, and it makes no sense.
You could see, you could see that Travis Bigel is
a huge scar on his fact that they added. Why

(01:35:21):
would they do that if he wasn't a veteran? Yeah,
you know, none of it. It's just like this is
your favorite movie you have you actually watched it anyway,
But I do, honestly think because I remember listening to
that years before this came out. I was like, Oh,
he's gonna he's kinda gonna riff on that, and that's
that's kind of what he does. The Manson family is

(01:35:41):
in the background, and it's just what is going on
at the time that you know, uh, I don't want
to say builds to that, but how not only is
how what it was before that, because you know, that
was a huge thing that in many ways changed Hollywood,
I would say. But but one thing that's interested without

(01:36:03):
the novel h in regards to the Manson stuff is that,
you know, the whole mascer at the end is just
kind of it's mentioned earlier on in the book and
it's never like fully described or anything. It's just kind
of a passing where I think it jumps forward some

(01:36:23):
at some point and it's like, yeah, the hippies kind
of came in and he killed him. They killed him
all and whatever, and that helped his career a little bit.
And then but you have all this, all these other
sections about the Manson family, and it's way more into
it than the movie does. And I didn't. I only
skimmed the book this time. I read it a couple

(01:36:43):
of years ago. You know, the kind of the thesis
of the movie is like Rick Dalton should be thankful,
you know, be thankful for you have. Cliff Booth got
away with murdering his I spent a bunch of other
terrible things, and he's out like zen because he's done that.
And Rick Dalton is concerned about these things. But he's

(01:37:07):
got it, you know, he's he's it's he has it's
sweet right. Oh yeah, And that's the thing that's also
like I think that's one of the reasons people kind
of say it's a more mature Tarantino movie. I think,
along with like Jackie Brown, which is about like aging
and stuff. That's well, one, it's a nice best coming
from Tarantino because it does seem like a guy who

(01:37:30):
loves vengeance and has a lot of grudges, you know
what I mean. That's oftentimes the driving force for his movies.
So it is kind of nice to see. I mean,
it's easy for him to say, right, uh, like be
thankful even if your career is not that great. Right.
But anyway, well, I went I went way form so

(01:37:54):
h what was I What was I saying? But how
did I start that? Sorry? I go on these brands.

Speaker 2 (01:38:01):
Yeah, we're let's see where did that start? So you
were talking about, oh, the portrayal of the Manson family
in the novelization, he goes way more into it. Yeah,
and I know, like they do. There's a chapter called
Creepy Crawl, right, and I think they go into that.

Speaker 3 (01:38:18):
They go into that's the point I was thinking, Thank you.
They go into a lot more detail about the Manson family,
and then it also goes into how Manson is trying
to make it, you know what I mean. Yeah, so
you're kind of you're you're seeing a guy who's made
it and wants to keep it, but wants to keep

(01:38:40):
it at a certain level, Like he's not gonna be
satisfied with just you know what i mean, getting by
and doing his own thing. He has to be a
you know, a star or a hero, you know what
I mean. Yeah, and then you have this Manson character
who wants to be part of Hollywood and that's a
huge you know, and so maybe him I'm exploring that

(01:39:01):
is supposed to be some kind of contrast with the
Rickon story or what in the novel. I don't know.
It feels like a waste of time to me. It
doesn't really for me, resonate and the fact that the
whole climax is taken out, which I don't care whatever,

(01:39:22):
but I don't need to have him describing it to
me once I've already seen it. But I try to
think about his the noblization in isolation. If I just
read this, when I go, what was the point? What
was the point that Manson stuff? Because it doesn't build
them killing them, right, So you're just like it's and

(01:39:48):
you're right. I mean, I guess it is. The novel
just see it seems like an almost it doesn't stand
on its own and what kind of crazy person would
read it without having seen the movie. I don't know. Oh,
but right, but it feels to a certain level like
it should stand on its own kind of right. And
I was reading this whole thing, and it's like keeps

(01:40:09):
talking about the Manson family and then just off handling
so yeah, some of them broke in and they slaughtered them,
and then keeps talking about them, and then just I'll
be like, well, I don't what was that. I don't
know why that was there.

Speaker 2 (01:40:21):
So yeah, I don't know why the I don't know
why the kind of the Manson family slaughter is not
there and then also I think the ending of the
book is like, because let's see, so Steve McQueen actually
shows up at the Tate Polanski house at the end, right,

(01:40:42):
and doesn't he talk to Rick Dalton oh manby.

Speaker 4 (01:40:47):
I don't.

Speaker 3 (01:40:47):
I don't, I honestly don't. I don't remember. I remember
there's a whole part at the Drinkers Club. Oh yeah,
shows up and then it's like, uh, he's on the
phone with the butters the girl. And that's another thing

(01:41:08):
that I guess kind of with the movie. I don't
hate it, you know, the precocious smart kid, right, It's
just you know, I know there's something there about like
how she tells him he's the greatest actor, and that
like means something because she's so precocious and so like
on her shit, you know, like she's not like it's

(01:41:32):
like he says it's great, like it's it's he It
kind of means more because he's maybe more pure or something. Yeah,
but I don't know, the really smart, precocious kid kind
of cliche. He does it fine. I don't hate it,
and I understand it's function and I'm not saying he
should have done something different. I don't love stuff. I enough.

Speaker 2 (01:41:54):
I do love the scene. I do love the scene
with the first scene with him and Julia Butter. I
think that she's pretty awesome and honestly, like, I have
a five year old daughter, who she might say that
to to somebody like who's much older than than she is,

(01:42:15):
Like I could see her being that kind of precocious.
But and so maybe maybe that. Of course I didn't,
she hadn't been born when I first saw once spent
time in Hollywood. But I actually do enjoy her, and
it's the kind of character I don't like.

Speaker 3 (01:42:35):
I think most people do. Most people love that scene.

Speaker 2 (01:42:38):
Yeah, yeah, I think most people do.

Speaker 3 (01:42:41):
I thought. I know I'm on Paul Schrader's side. I
know he posted about he he really liked the movie,
he loved His complaint was the precocious kind of kid cliche,
and I think he does a good job with it.
But it is like, I don't hate. It's one of
those things where it's like it's necessary. I can't find
a better way of doing it. I'm not mad at it,

(01:43:05):
just the same way of him repeating the Ultimate History.
I'm not mad at it. It's just not my favorite thing.

Speaker 2 (01:43:11):
Yeah, I do like that aspect of it. I think
it's a funny scene. I I really I really enjoy her.

Speaker 3 (01:43:20):
And if you've seen the Oh was that? How do
you feel it plays in the novel though, with the
extra stuff with her on the phone and all that.

Speaker 2 (01:43:29):
I don't like the extra stuff And apparently that was
going to be how the movie ended originally too, And
so I'm definitely glad it didn't end that way with
the phone call or whatever between them.

Speaker 3 (01:43:42):
But some of the things about the novelization, I'll just say, really, okay,
Like I said, I don't think it's like a great thing.
I think it's very I think it's very readable when
it gets into the Lancer stuff, and it's like he's
kind of trying to write like a just like a

(01:44:04):
pulpy Western in a way, like he's he's trying to
sort of write it like a pulpy Western, right right,
And there's a lot about that is uh, you don't
You're like, did he build on this? Is he extrapolating
or is this really what he got from it? Like
about the character, about how he's like the best character

(01:44:27):
of tu Westerns, he's like the most conflicted and and
all this kind of stuff about how he's on the edge,
he's this anti hero and then he kind of watched
this shore and you're like, it's not really yeah, and
you god, he is that how he took it as
a kid, like I can't believe that this guy isn't
just being immediately good and he kind of built that

(01:44:49):
in his head or you know, I'm I don't know,
but what I found funny is I think he thought
it he he's not a good novel writer, or he's
good in the sense that it's very readable, but it's
very much written like a script. Like I said, it's
present tense and it's pretty straightforward. The pros is almost

(01:45:15):
conversational like his scripts, and that works like you know,
you're but then when he jumps back to like the
Western stuff, at least at the beginning of it, it
feels like he abandons it. But at least at the
beginning of it, he has this kind of prose like

(01:45:35):
it's no, he's no longer like being conversational with his pros.
He tries. It's like she feels like he's trying to
be like, uh, evocative and descriptive and stuff, and he
just doesn't have it. He's just not there, you know
what I mean? Uh, I was listening in the interview

(01:45:56):
like yesterday, Well, how did he say it? He was
trying to say the word elegaic and what did he say?
I can't remember now it's point he was complete whatever.
It was a malaprophism. But anyway, he has this part
in it where he's writing and he goes the backlit
sunshine rays filtered through the gauze like brown dust in

(01:46:18):
the way Tristram, Now all cinematographers of Western movies would
hope to duplicate, okay, in a way one hundred years
from now, all symmet West movies. I read that wrong,
but whatever, And I'm reading that like you're trying to
this like kind of pulpy Western thing, and you can't
just go with a description like this is what like this,

(01:46:39):
someone would want this in cinematography later, But what what
is that? That's that's terrible, that's very bad writing. And
when you read his scripts, he'll oftentimes be like Jango
gets an outfit and it's a mix of Elvis and
Flaming Star and Little Joe and Bonanza or something, and
he has these kind of reverence is where it's like

(01:47:01):
he'll just say, like a movie or a director or scene,
it's like this right and that. To me, it feels
like he wanted to put a very specific scene he
saw in a movie. He's like, I can't put that there,
and it's just like something beautiful as cineercogover would shoot
a hundred years from now. What that's not a voga,
that's terrible. So anyway, I just it felt like he

(01:47:23):
was being conversational, and at least at the beginning when
he was doing the Western stuff, it felt like he
was getting a little bit more verbose and trying to
be a little bit more like descriptive of things and
stuff and try to be a little bit more purple prose,
and he can't do it well at all. And then
it feels like he gives up and just kind of

(01:47:46):
writes it conversationally like the rest of it, which works
a lot better. But you're like reading it and it's
just like, yeah, you could yeah once it Yeah. And
there's also a whole section just to talk about weird
ify maybe problematic shit. There's a whole sexual with Lancer's

(01:48:07):
mom and in the show it's just like she left him. Yeah,
you don't know. And there's this whole part which you
have maybe some sympathy. She married this older guy and
there's a younger ranch hand that she runs off with
or whatever. But is this whole sexual where like she's
a whose she can't do nothing better. It's her nature,

(01:48:28):
you know what I mean. It's like, uh, is this
supposed to be the you? You're like, is this supposed
to be this weird sort of uh Western novelization point
of view or is this your point of view? Like
it's very uh, it's very disparaging. Like Lancer's mother just
a whrror. She could never beat her horror nature. And

(01:48:51):
you're just like, all right, that's a little that's a
little much. Maybe I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:48:56):
I think that's just him. I think that is kind
of the way he talked. And it's it's funny because
he presented the Oscar for Best Director to Sean Baker,
and Sean Baker was talking about like honoring sex workers

(01:49:17):
and all this stuff in his speech, and you know,
and I think deep down inside Tarantino's what Tarantino was
probably like wanting to roll his eyes because, like he
was on Pure Cinema podcast recently because talking about Michael Madson.
Michael Madson had he just passed away, like maybe two

(01:49:37):
weeks ago, it was pretty recent, and he was on
Pure Cinema and they talked about I think like ten
Michael Madson rolls or five or ten Michael Madson rolls,
and he described one of the roles as Tarantino is
like saying the plot and he says, and Michael Madson's

(01:49:59):
care kills whores. And that's just kind of that's just
like the the way that he would talk about that.
He he that. I think that's just him.

Speaker 3 (01:50:11):
Yeah, that's the thing where where you're like, uh yeah,
you're like are you adopting the point of view of
your characters, you know, or or or is this your
point of view? Not like it's it's I don't care honestly,
but it is one more funny thing, especially the controversy

(01:50:34):
surrounding the movie. So yeah, in some ways, I feel
a lot of the novelization is a middle finger, not
only the critics of the movie like I'll him do whatever,
but I may be in a way also fans, Like
we were talking about the way that they the way
he portrays clip lous, so you love this guy all right.

Speaker 2 (01:50:53):
Well, so it's almost like he's saying, like, oh, so
you thought that I like matured with Once upon a
Time in Hollywood. Well, I'm going to show you that
I actually haven't matured at all. I'm still the guy.
I'm still the same guy who wrote True Romance and
Reservoir Dogs. It's almost like that kind of I don't think.

Speaker 3 (01:51:16):
That's wrong because I know that, you know, it's uh,
I know it's a it's a maybe a pretentious cinepholicalichade.
But you know a lot of people's you know, are
like Jackie Brown, that's his best movie. Uh, I think
it's up there. I don't know if it's my favorite,
but it's up there. And and it has I think

(01:51:37):
the most human you know what I mean. It's about
it's about stuff that doesn't seem like it would especially
him at that age. Yeah, it would be interesting to
him about aging and all that. And so it is
in a way a companion piece to this movie. That
one is one of where I do think that he

(01:51:59):
was very specifically trying to from portraying gory violence. It
has violence in it, but almost I think only one
time is you really see blood, you know, it's not
like a big you know, it's it's not a gruesomely
violent movie like a lot of his other movies are.
And I know later later on, you know, I have

(01:52:22):
friends and nomos and he and he said that he kills.
The people that say Jackie Brown best movie are people
that are not fans of the rest of his movies.

Speaker 2 (01:52:32):
Yes, yeah, I've heard him say that, and.

Speaker 3 (01:52:35):
I don't I don't agree with that, but it is
kind of funny, uh that after that one, he immediately
goes to like maybe his most violent movie. He goes
to kill. I won't say immediately, but he goes to uh,
you know, it does does guys. You know, it's like

(01:52:57):
he's almost doing, uh, the movie that people have in
their head when they think about a Tarantino movie, you know.
And the violence in his movies since then has usually
been very much like over the top. Uh No, now
that it's not over the top in like Resbord Dogs,
but there's a there's an edge there, There's a it

(01:53:18):
feels the more steaks there. You know, maybe tim Roth
would have would have died earlier before he bleed out
so much, but other than that, the violence feels more
grounded and more weighty and.

Speaker 2 (01:53:30):
Yeah, definitely, And so I don't know, I don't.

Speaker 3 (01:53:34):
I don't know what that is. But I, like he said,
I don't know if he's like fuck you, you don't get me,
you know, or or something you know. Yeah, but I
honestly don't even think he has that in him. I
think he loves praise too much. But but yeah, I don't,
I don't, I don't know.

Speaker 4 (01:53:54):
I I.

Speaker 3 (01:53:56):
The novel very much feels uh undiscipline and indulgent in
a way, in an annoying way.

Speaker 2 (01:54:08):
Yeah, And I think I feel like now, like I said,
I read the book when it came out, and then,
like you, I skimmed it kind of in the last
week or so. And I feel like in the novelization, uh,
Sharon Tate gets a little more like overshadowed. Like I don't,

(01:54:28):
I don't. Really nothing about the writing of her really
stood out to me. I can't even remember anything about
her specifically.

Speaker 3 (01:54:38):
In it gives her some extra scenes where she's first
going to Hollywood. I think it's talking about truck driver
or something.

Speaker 2 (01:54:46):
Oh, yes, I remember that, And then.

Speaker 3 (01:54:48):
There's some other stuff with Polanski, but I don't. I
don't fully remember but I know he rehactioned the off
repeated story of Mary's Baby the door, like where it's
the doorway and you can't see the character and uh
and they're like, why did you frame it that way?
You can't see the care what are you doing? And

(01:55:10):
he's like just watch and then the entire audience leans
over trying to see around the door. Oh yeah, yeah,
so he yeah, and I remember that he reacts to
some of that, but uh yeah, yeah, it's one of
those things like I guess you just can't do in
a novel unless you make her into a Tarantino character.

(01:55:34):
But uh yeah, you can't just kind of have her
going to the movies and stuff. When you see Marveo
Roaby doing it stuff, you're like, okay, cool, but but
uh uh when it's in a novel, you don't have
just the same way with Cliff Boot you don't. You
don't have the r that that actor is bringing to it,

(01:55:56):
you know, right. So yeah, I think I think the
novelization is a mess, But I but it's fun. I
didn't I didn't purchase it. I downloaded it illegally, so.

Speaker 2 (01:56:12):
I did purchase it. I think it was a day
one purchase of the paperback for me. Oh, I don't
know if this is what I was trying to bring
up a little bit ago. Oh okay, So you had
mentioned the showing a contrast between Charles Manson and Rick Dalton,

(01:56:36):
and in the movie, I think that they do. One
thing that I think does work is the contrast between
Sharon Tate and Rick Dalton where she's like on the
rise and she's this kind of rising potential star and
and Cliff Booth is kind of on the way out

(01:56:56):
and I and and that does really work. I think
those characters knt contrasting really works, you know, Like and
Rick Dalton is is like kind of whiny, and you
know he is I'm trying to think of the best
way to describe it. He kind of feels sorry for himself.

(01:57:18):
And then everything about Sharon Tate is just you know,
very positive. You know, Rick Dalton, you know, they show him,
you know, he hates the hippies. And then we see
Sharon Tate giving what I would say as a hippie,
like a hitching a ride. You know, she gives this
hippie a ride and they talk about her going to

(01:57:40):
Big Sir, and they are very friendly you know, she
can kind of walk within you multiple circles and kind
of accepts everybody, and he kind of can't stand anybody.
I think that that part of the movie works well.
I think that was the point I was trying to
remember actually when you were talking about the contents between

(01:58:00):
Manson and Rick Dalton.

Speaker 3 (01:58:03):
Yeah, that well that that's a good point. And that's
also uh that also kind of like like but then
not only do the contrast between Rick Dalton and and
Sharon Tate, but also between Rick Dalton and Cliff Booth.
And I think in the novelization he's trying to Cliff

(01:58:26):
Booth is like kind of a more open minded guy
about stuff, which, okay, I get that, that's fine. I
still don't think he's going to make a top ten Crosawa,
but but but he but you know, like like uh uh,
Rick Dalton has this, you know, a disparaging opinion of

(01:58:47):
spaghetti westerns, which a lot of people had at the time.
I can kind of see that Cliff Booth is like
have you seen one? You know, you kind of see that.
And he's also the one that's like, oh, I'll take
an I'll take an acid dip cigarette, you know, he's like, uh,
He's like, Hippy's okay whatever. There is not necessarily my scene,

(01:59:08):
but you know, I'll be a part of it, you know,
if I get laid or whatever else. But you see
that he's like he's grateful for what he has and
he's more open minded and and and uh and yeah,
and and you can see that in Sharon Tate, and
that is and that is one one of the good

(01:59:30):
things about it. I think maybe Terry over states it
a little bit, like he does with everything, but but
I do appreciate that it tries to show that.

Speaker 5 (01:59:42):
She wasn't like dumb she you know, like she picks
out this you know, she buys a book from Blue
Gallagher that was going to be what it becomes tests later, right, yeah,
which Polanski dedicated to her.

Speaker 3 (01:59:59):
So yeah, I appreciate that stuff about him. What I
like is that he has this love of Hollywood and
stars and what I appreciate and it's still doing it
to a certain degree. But he's trying to show you,
this is Sharon Tate, removed from these murders. This is

(02:00:21):
how she's been defined, right, yes, And he's saying, this
is somebody who had potential, you know, what I mean,
and I do appreciate that.

Speaker 2 (02:00:31):
Yeah, I think the idea of like the movie kind
of giving the audience a way like you kind of remember.
I think his intention and maybe he's even said this
was too, Like for decades, when you think about Sharon Tate,
you only think about the way she died, and this

(02:00:53):
movie kind of will make you think about like the
way she could have lived kind of. And I do
think that there's something like kind of powerful about that.

Speaker 3 (02:01:04):
Yeah. And also you know, and this has been talked
about a lot, but the way he uses your of
it to build in not only suspense but just sadness,
especially in those scenes with the with you know, with
the rolling stones, you're out of time and all that. Uh,

(02:01:28):
so that so that when you're hearing that, you're seeing
them going about their day, you know, the day that
it is.

Speaker 5 (02:01:35):
It.

Speaker 3 (02:01:36):
Yeah, it uses that too, uh, not only uh have
a certain level of suspense or what's you know, what happened,
and it builds into the climax. It really is like
it is in a way, it's a very beautiful tribute
to to share a Tate. Yeah, last sequence where it

(02:01:57):
works on two levels, where you are in the world
of the movie and you're you're, you're saying that his
stuff and it builds to what it is, but you
have your knowledge of what actually happened and this is
the last night. And I think he does create like
that where the restaurants they go to and all that
or anything. Yes, so it works on two levels where

(02:02:20):
you're getting sad because you know this character gets murdered
even though it doesn't actually happen in the movie. It's
a it's a good trick. He doesn't very it's a
very it's very effective.

Speaker 2 (02:02:32):
Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 3 (02:02:34):
I can't think of a lot of things where you
are you're I mean, obviously they will cast actors and
things that have a history and stuff, but where you're
kind of lamenting what is gonna happen but it doesn't
happen in the movie, but it makes you sad about
what really happened before he shows you his version, you know.

(02:02:56):
And I do think that is is uh uh pretty brilliant,
you know. And that's why that that's why he pulls
up repeating himself because he does it well.

Speaker 2 (02:03:08):
Yeah, definitely, yeah, and I I I really do love
the ending now I do it. Maybe it is I
mean Obviously it's very over the top violent. But I
don't always love like drug related humor in movies. It
doesn't always work, but here it does. Like I like

(02:03:30):
Brad Pitt putting like the dog food in the bowl
and saying like whoa, Like that's great, and even uh
oh yeah, he's trying to remember the Manson family because
and he's like, oh, I know you from spawn ranch
and and he says like you are you know to
text and Text says I'm the devil and I'm here
to do the devil's business and and and Cliff kind

(02:03:53):
of pauses and says like, no, it was dumber than that. Yeah,
Like that stuff is so oh great. I remember the
first time I saw that, I just thought it was
absolutely hilarious.

Speaker 3 (02:04:07):
Yeah, and I'm known to take acid sometimes. I don't
think you can smoke it, but but if it was dipped,
then you had it near mouth long enough, I think
that it would work. But I think you could smoke acid.
I could be wrong, but but no. But beyond just

(02:04:28):
how like funny and entertaining that is, it's also works
because it allows Cliff Booth to remain his kind of
amused zend character. Right, So like, had he not been high,

(02:04:50):
it would have maybe been a more not that he's
not violent or anything, but him, he himself might have
been more ferocious or something, you know what I mean, Like, yeah,
might have felt like a different character. But the fact
that he's on acid now he could be zen as
she smashes the lady's face into you know, telephone, you know.

(02:05:13):
So that works because it's almost like, yeah, get him
on acid so he can retain what his character has
been this whole time while he's massacring people. So that
I like that that works well. One thing I know
love is Bikey Madison her little tear speech in the car,
like oh yeah, we're gonna get one. It feels like

(02:05:35):
leftover kind of Dennis Hoppery, you know what I mean,
the hippie kind of come on, man, we gotta do this.

Speaker 2 (02:05:42):
Man Like it's a bit much.

Speaker 3 (02:05:45):
It's a bit much. It feels I mean, it feels
like just out of nowhere in a way, let's kill him.
They shocked, they taught his violence. And it also feels
like a kind of I don't know if it's cheap
shot because I don't like these critics either, but it
was a little bit like a chief shot of uh
Tarantino about constantly being asked about violence in his movies

(02:06:08):
and the people that hand ring and go violent. You know,
violent movies inspire violence, and it feels like he's like
making he's putting that in the mouth of this of
of this Banson murderer, you know what I mean. Yeah,
they taught us violence, so now let's kill him. You know.
It feels a little bit like a revenge on the

(02:06:29):
critics who constantly ask him about violence. But just the
whole thing about you know, come on, I just don't.
I don't. I don't like the writing there, and I
honestly don't really like her performance in that part. I
did like her and Anora, so yeah, that, yeah, that
the whole But yeah, demystifying them and making them the

(02:06:52):
idiots that they were, uh is great. And I remember
too when it came out, a lot of people complain that,
you know, violence against women, misogyny and all that, and
people like, well, they're the Manson murderers. And then the
people that were upset were like, well, they haven't actually
murdered anyone yet, how does he know? Yeah, And it's like, well,

(02:07:16):
but well, outside of just the fact they come up
with knives or anything, but he does set up that
will kill a woman. Yeah yeah, oh yeah, right, So
so it's also not like it's not like the character
has to you know, know that they're these manson murderers.

(02:07:37):
He's just like, no, fuck these people, I'm gonna slaughter them,
you know. So Anyway, a lot of this is reaction
against people that had these kind of weird complaints about
the movie, that maybe had a grudge against Tarantino or something.
But I do also, at the same time, like I said,
feel that he's he's kind of nudging those those critics,

(02:08:00):
especially in the novelization.

Speaker 2 (02:08:04):
Oh yeah, yeah, all right, Well I'm trying to think
if I have anything else to add. Do you have
any kind of final thoughts or anything else that you
feel like we need to mention.

Speaker 3 (02:08:20):
I don't know about really much more to talk about.
I uh, yeah, I no, not really, but it's not
it'd be weird to list them now. But but yeah,
I I I think the reason I kind of want

(02:08:43):
to do this outside of just the fact that that
that there was, you know, a TV show associated with it.
I don't know Western TV shows that well, I know
them a little bit, but not as well as like
Western movies and so. But I just felt this was
a good a good topic for your show, specifically because

(02:09:04):
you have so much about Western TV shows and all that,
and this is very much in that world. But uh,
I think Once upon a Time in Hollywood is is
uh oh, outside of my nitpicks is overall great. Uh.
The novelization is interesting. Yeah, And I mean, if you

(02:09:31):
love them movie, I would say, wat's the Lancer Pilot
just just because yeah, definitely it's for the fun of it.
That's for the Lancer Pilot itself. Now, I don't think
it's that uh, it's not something that anyone really needs
to see, but I but I think it was still
a solid piece of entertainment. It's it's hard for me

(02:09:53):
to really get like really seeing the praises of like
a episodic televisi at that time. It's I, you know,
there's good stuff that comes out, but it's like, I
don't know, it's a it's a different grading scale.

Speaker 2 (02:10:09):
So definitely yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:10:12):
Yeah, but anyway, check all three of them out. They
all the good times. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:10:19):
I definitely appreciate you bringing up the topic to me
because because like you said, I think it's great for
this show, for you, for you know, this podcast, you know,
connecting like a TV show to a modern like you know,
huge movie and talking about like, uh, you know, so
few people you know really probably know about Lancer except

(02:10:43):
through this movie. So I think it's kind of cool
took kind of spotlight the series a little bit, because
anytime somebody will mention Lancer, it's just in referencing Once
upon Time in Hollywood. So I think it's good that
we got to talk about the pilot a little bit.
But yeah, like you said, it's not a show that
I would like, I'll never watch commit to watching this

(02:11:07):
whole series, even though there's only fifty one episodes, Like
there's there's like just better quality you know, Western TV
shows that I would rather uh spend my time on.
But yeah, but once one Time in Hollywood, I absolutely
love it and it was it was great to rewatch
and uh and yeah, that's kind of kind of my

(02:11:28):
final thoughts. Although now skimming through the novelization, even skimming
through it was a little tough for me. But but
I do think, yeah, if you've seen the movie, if
you're a big fan, you might as well read it
because it is it's a pretty easy read, and.

Speaker 3 (02:11:50):
I would say, OK, ahead, and it does give.

Speaker 2 (02:11:53):
You a different Uh, it does give you some some
different there. There are things that are in the book
that aren't in the movie that you'll probably enjoy, and
then there's things that you will probably wonder why if
this is in the novelization at all?

Speaker 3 (02:12:14):
Yeah. I think if you are a big turned you know, fan,
obviously see the movie and you're gonna want to read
the book. Sure, But I would say, what, watch the
Lancer Pilot because I think what what is interesting here
is that he is uh, you can you can see

(02:12:39):
you can kind of see in a way, not I
wouldn't say his writing process, but how his mind works.
And like you could feel that he watched this Lancer
Pilot when he was however old eight at nine, I
don't know, I don't know, and there was probably something
there that him or whatever and maybe build up in

(02:13:00):
his mind later. And when you especially when you read
the novelization, you can see how much he's built off of,
you know, kind of this threadbare skeleton of a show concept. Yeah,
And that on its own, I think is interesting because

(02:13:22):
I think most of his movies are him something that
affected him at some point or whatever, and him wanting
to do his version of that or the version that
he remembered, the version that he built up in his mind,
and uh and uh yeah, and I I think it's
fascinating to see that. I think it's fascinating to see that.

(02:13:47):
Not when he's you know, not acknowledging his influences like
the Hateful A. I mean, he's a guy who loves
to acknowledge his influences, but that's not the you know,
not the specific one that triggered the whole.

Speaker 2 (02:13:58):
Thing, will omit certain titles and.

Speaker 3 (02:14:04):
Yes, yeah, uh, but so in this one, when he's
actually you know, giving it, laying it all out, it's
just fun to see and he and it's something he's
even trying to write the best Western ever when he's
doing his rewrite of the Lancer thing. But you can
kind of just even from that limited thing and even

(02:14:25):
a limited and he and obviously when he films the
Lancer pilot in the show, he's filming it like a movie.
He's not. It's not like the Bounty Log, different aspect ratio.
He's not doing camera moves that they would do on
the show. He's trying he's filming it like a Western. Yeah.
So it's just it's just interesting to see an artist
their influences and what they're bringing to it. So yeah,

(02:14:49):
if you if you are a big Tarantino fan, and
if you want to read the novelization downloaded illegally and
then watching the Lancer pilot, I think it's an interesting.
Uh way, see how is my works and how he
can take like Johnny Madrid character and build all this
mythology backstory around that is just not there in the

(02:15:12):
original text right outside of the thinnest thing. So but yeah,
once Upon a Time in Hollywood it's great. Uh, the
novelization it's interesting, and Lancer it's okay. So check them
all out.

Speaker 2 (02:15:31):
Oh man, all right, well, uh well, David, this was
this was awesome. Thank you very much.

Speaker 3 (02:15:38):
Oh, thank you.

Speaker 2 (02:15:43):
I hope you enjoyed this episode. It was great to
have David Lambert back on the show. And I had
a blast talking about Once Supon Time in Hollywood, which
I rank very high on my list of all time
favorite movies. But what did you think of this week's
episode and what do you think of Quentin Tarantino's Once
Upon a Time in Hollywood. You can let me know
on Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter, or you can email me.
All the ways you can reach me are in the

(02:16:05):
episode description. Next week, Zach Bryant is returning to talk
about another Clint Eastwood movie. This time we're talking about
Two Mules for Sister Sarah. Until then, if you're looking
for more film related podcasts, please check out other shows
on a Someone's Favorite Productions Podcast Network. Thanks for listening.

Speaker 6 (02:16:22):
Hey, this is Jason Kleeberg from The Force five podcast,
a show that forces a guest to come up with
a movie themed top five list topic and then we
reveal our picks on air. Top five heist Films, top
five tier Jerkers, Top five movie Dogs. Every show you'll
be asking yourself what would be on my list. Guests
include directors, screenwriters, actors, podcasters, musicians, authors, and even a

(02:16:44):
professional wrestler. Subscribe to the Force five podcast and you
won't just be a listener, you'll be a list nerd.
The Force five podcast available wherever you are listening now.

Speaker 1 (02:16:59):
Thank you for to hear more shows from the Someone's
Favorite Productions Podcast Network. Please select the link in the description.

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Episode 28: The Connection Between Once Upon a Time in Hollywood and Lancer w/ David Lambert

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