August 15, 2023 • 49 mins
Hello booknerds!
We got to talk to award-winning short story writer Saras Manickam back on 15 July 2023 live at our favourite indie bookshop Lit Books, PJ. We get into her short story collection My Mother Pattu and it was such a lovely conversation.
Saras writes with much empathy and understanding of human complexities, tackling difficult issues like racism, mistreatment of migrant workers, and domestic abuse. Her short story collection is filled with violence, tenderness, and hope.
We hope you enjoy this episode and do pick up My Mother Pattu!
Cheers!
We got to talk to award-winning short story writer Saras Manickam back on 15 July 2023 live at our favourite indie bookshop Lit Books, PJ. We get into her short story collection My Mother Pattu and it was such a lovely conversation.
Saras writes with much empathy and understanding of human complexities, tackling difficult issues like racism, mistreatment of migrant workers, and domestic abuse. Her short story collection is filled with violence, tenderness, and hope.
We hope you enjoy this episode and do pick up My Mother Pattu!
Cheers!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
Hey, friends and book cluvers.It's Stephanie, the producer of Two book
Nuts Talking. I'm here to introducethe episode this week, which is an
interview between Diana and Honey, anaward winning short story writer Sarah's Manicam.
This interview was recorded live and litBooks and goes into her short story collection
My Mother Patou Enjoy. Okay,warm, Welcome to everyone. Thank you
(00:35):
so much for coming down here ona Saturday morning and spending some time with
us. I'm Diana Young, andnext to me, this love lady next
to me is my co host ormy Two book Nets Talking podcast. Okay,
and we basically we just heard outabout books. That's our job and
we're very very happy to be invitedhere today by lady minhan to come down
(01:00):
and get this opportunity to talk toSarah's. Yes, he's batrified. Actually,
oh just look at me and lookat how awkward I am. You'll
be fine next to me. Okay. So just a little bit about Sarah's
before we start. Okay, So, Sarah's Manicam has worked as a teacher,
(01:21):
a teacher trainer, copywriter, businessEnglish trainer. Bear with me,
guys, it's a very long resume, copy editor, writer of textbook,
school workbooks and copytable books. Thisis a storied life here all while writing
short stories at night. So hervarious work experiences enable insights into characters and
(01:42):
life experiences, shaping the authenticity whichmarks her stories. And she actually won
the k To Memorial Award for LiterallyExcellence in twenty seventeen and the Regional Prize
for Asia in the twenty nineteen CommonwealthShort Story Contest. Both of these award
winning stories are included in this anthology. We are here to talk about today,
(02:07):
Well, warm, welcome to you, Sarah's. Thank you, and
so many of my friends are here. Thank you, Thank you so much
for this support. Thank you.I really really value all of you guys.
So how about we have a tasterof your book? Yes, So
(02:28):
what we're gonna do today is thatSarah's will read an excerpt first Soday,
all of you who have not readher wonderful stories can have a taster,
and then we'll get sub chatting goingon. I'm going to read the first
paragraph of My Mother Pattu because itwon the prize, and then I'll go
on a little bit inside to givean idea of relationships my mother Pattu.
(02:54):
My mother pat To graized our liveslargely with her absence, for which my
father and I, to a lesserextant Grandma, were profoundly grateful. She
descended upon us once a month tocollect her allowance from Grandma, loose the
pantry, curse my father, andcuff me on the ear. We breathed
(03:16):
a collective sigh of relief when shewent away, except for Grandma, who
wept in secret for the daughter shecould not stand to lift with another.
Very brief When I was ten,I asked pot if she loved me,
love you, Lalita. She drawledstupid question, as stupid and ugly as
(03:39):
you. I was fourteen when Ihad you, that big horrid thing that
swelled my stomach, gave me heartburnand cost me my life. She cost
me my life, mamma, Butto insist it, everything came to end
with you, idiot girl, anddon't forget and hours of pain before you
were born. I was shocked atfirst that a mother would not automatically love
(04:03):
her baby, but it was asecret relief to hear her words. I
was free then to hate Pato withoutguilt. But was that vial that I
wretched out after each of her visits. She was screaming in my head whenever
I could not answer her quickly enough, receiving a sharp slap as reward.
(04:27):
She was the poison, leaching myblood, my bones. And that was
a real nightmare. For if youdiscounted a few details like my hair,
skin color, or eyes, Iwas a dead ringer for her. I
could not bear the horror of it. There's nothing of my father in me,
nothing, for he was not myfather. Everyone knew that story.
(04:49):
I knew it soon enough, inthe way children absorbed stories, almost to
osmosis. So Pato never talked aboutit. Nodded right now, thank you,
very wow. We can just listento you read your stories all day.
How does it feel like, thewhole collection of your stories in your
(05:12):
hands? Pretty just it's a thrill. It's also a validation people think it's
good enough to be published. No, that kind of thing I was.
I was talking to my book clubthe other day and I said, I
was describing your stories to them,and I said they were like bond bonds,
you know, you can pick andyou eat it. And some of
(05:33):
them are spicy, some a bitbitter. Some of them are sweet,
but I was so often there's alittle bit of glass in it, and
he goes, you know, they'rereally sharp, and I find that and
I like the way that it's atthe beginning. You start a bit.
You ease people into your the storyline. You know, you have you you
(05:54):
you tell people about Mumbang. There'sa community that so you kind of feel
quite when you first read your stories, but then you really go like,
ooh, you know, you're reallynot sentimental about your characters, you know,
so tell us a little bit aboutwhy the setting of a small town
is somewhere that you feel it's likea backdrop for your stories. Oh,
(06:15):
mum Bang, that's an easy question. Mum Bang doesn't exist. I could
make it up, you know,and maybe it's like kl or call a
slang or you need to get thefacts right, the streets, the places.
But I could create Mumbang and thatgave me the freedom to not be
blocked down by accurate. Accuracy isso important. You can't get things wrong
(06:40):
now people will check. So mumBang doesn't exist. So that's wonderful.
That is actually a something that isvery important. You're really a story you
always be questioning, Oh, letme go check it see if that's very
sidely? Yes, yes, andthen you sometimes right just always get it
(07:00):
wrong, you know, and thenit really puts you off when they get
it wrong because it's something that canre teckt. Yeah. But that's why
a lot of authors maybe take alot of time to write stories, because
you have to be researching so much, and you have to be careful about
everything that you put up there.And that's probably why. Okay, I
have a question that's a little bitrelated to that. So since Mumbang is
(07:25):
a creative place, a fantasy place, if you will, I'd like to
talk about the fantasy in your inyour stories, and by that I mean
the stories that people tell themselves andothers about who they are, right,
and that quality of you know,fiction that we that we we've into our
own lives all the time. Okay, can you talk about you know,
(07:46):
because you put a lot of thatinto your stories, right, And I
was very struck by by the way, like you know, like for example,
in My Mother Pack two, shebelieves certain things about her life and
what she was told and what herdaughter did to her and her daughta see
is completely differently. Can you tellus a little bit about that quality of
fiction and fantasy in the way thatpeople live their lives and what that means
(08:11):
to you as a storyteller. Asa storyteller, it is stories took a
long time to write, because youknow, I'm that slow slow you know.
In the beginning, every time Istart at my stories, I wanted
to put in my moral stand,my authorial ownership, and say, hey,
(08:31):
hey, hey, you behave thisway. This is the way the
story is going to start, thisis the way it's going to end.
I know exactly what's going to happento these characters, you know, and
I'm going to teach them a lessonbecause I'm so good. And it never
worked. It absolutely never worked,because you've got to let the story.
The characters speak their own stories.It's not about you, it's about them.
(08:56):
And that's why I took the longesttime ever, because I was trying
to push and ever learned the lesson. It be a long long time to
learn that you have to let thestory the characters. You have to respect
them enough to give them ownership oftheir stories and and and to tell their
(09:18):
stories the way they wanted it tobe almost no authorial interference. I tried
very hard, because the moment youstart pushing characters into situations, then your
own bigotry, your own prejudices,your own you know, believes, take
over. And that's and the storiesare not about you there, but other
(09:39):
people there, but lived experiences.But they're not trying to tell you how
clever you are, how good youare, or see me, I'm such
a good writer. It's nothing aboutyou. Is about the stories and the
stories the characters have to stand up, which is why, you know,
the moment I tried to interfere,they all became figures, honestly, you
(10:03):
know, and they were I wasbought by them, they were bought by
me, you know. So yeah, you have to honor. I think
we have to honor and respect thecharacters to let them tell their own stories.
So they're always The stories caught meby surprise because they were not they
were not going or they never endedthe way I thought they would end.
(10:26):
I thought they ought to end.You know. Is this why short story
is sort of like the medium thatyou think is the best way is because
you have all these characters coveroting inyour head, right, how do you
know when a story is done.I mean, I know there is a
bit of a craft question, buthow do you know when your story you
have told the story that you wantedto tell, do your characters tell them
(10:48):
tell tell it to you. Okay, there's the first story, you know,
number one Road, M and Lane. I thought it was done when
I wrote it, I thought itwas done. But when I really looked
at it for this collection, Ifound no, it was not done.
(11:09):
That's not the way the story ends, ought to end, ought to be,
And so I changed the second halfof it because the characterist like me,
No, it's not working. It'snot working. You're trying to be
too goody, you're not too good, and you're trying to push yourself in.
That is a problem I find,Is it right? I think I'm
so clever and you know, somoral and upright. I got to tell
(11:33):
everybody how to live and it's notwrong. It doesn't work at all.
And for every story it is ait is this task that you tell yourself
let the story speak for itself.I think that's a very interesting thing to
think about. And also that remindsme of something that you've previly previously said
(11:54):
in interviews that you when on theprocess of writing My Mother Part two,
you're not the same person at theend of the story as you were at
the beginning of it. Can youaltrate on that? What do you mean
by that Part two was different?I mean I think it worked because it
won a price. But the personwho started writing Part two was not the
(12:18):
person who ended it. Who sohowho wrote the last draft? When I
started Part two, I was angry. I was talking of this child abuser
who needed to be punished, andwe needed to be shown her whatever,
and she needed to be punished,She needed to be shown that she was
a beast, a monster. Thefirst one gazillion drafts were like that,
(12:43):
and it never moved the very fairly, I think gazillion drafts to finish the
story just tell you how slow andhow I never learned my own lessons,
you know, And it took timetoo many years. Part it took the
longest a number of time. Allowwas time to finish because I was so
full of myself. And Part twowas you know a mass of people whom
(13:09):
I had known, people, womenwho I heard stories about them. I
knew people like Part two and Ihated them because they were they abused their
children, abused their families, andI had to learn to step back and
say, I'm I forgive you.Can you forgive me for this hatred that
(13:30):
I have for you? And oncethat that forgiveness And also in the meantime,
your life happened. I was working, And you know, you go
through life and love and grieve andloss and sorrow and whatever, and you
change as a person. You're nolonger the same person, no longer the
same moralistic, harsh, hard person. You're gentler. You're softer with yourself
(13:54):
and with others. When I wasat that state, when I was gentler,
then I could write Part two theway she deserved to be described and
deserved to be told. Then Ithink she sort of wrote wrote it herself.
Oh yeah, I mean, Imean writing is an act of empathy,
isn't it. When you when youunderstand your characters and where and also
(14:16):
but you're not trying very you're tryingalso not to empathize too much because you
don't want to be all over them. Yes, yes, yeah, that's
not Munjake, and yeah, yeah, you know mun Jake and your characters.
But at the same time, youknow, you got to also tell
the story that feels real right tothe characteristic. It has to be authentic
(14:37):
to the characters and to the story. They don't need a pat on the
back, They need the storage tobe told honestly, openly. Yeah,
I mean, I mean that's whatI I. It occurred to me I
was reading your book how much Ilove the female characters and how they're unapologie
I think in some ways, butin other ways, right you again,
(14:58):
you don't glaze them over like youknow you So you have characters like Sitta
and Sundari and you know, Judith, and these are all some of them
are quite Gothic, even like youknow the Witch that story. I thought,
oh, this is really very gothic, you know, like this woman
who lives in a house by herself, living in her memories. You know.
So tell us a little bit onyou were you were already telling us
(15:20):
about how you did Patu. Butdo you feel that this kind of female
narrative, you know, like howsometimes you read and people feel it's really
hard to write them authentically, right, How how long do they covert in
your head before before you know,I'm out on the time. But I
think as a writer, what Ican tell you is that you're not sitting
(15:43):
down and thinking about them. Theidea comes in your head about this person
or this story or this picture orthis word sentence comes in, and then
you're going through life. You're cooking, you're washing, you're drying the clothes,
you're scolding the kids, you're fightingwith you know what, whoever,
and all the time that story isgoing on in your it is sort of
(16:04):
and then it comes out in bitsand pieces. I hate people who say,
oh, I just sat down andwrote the story into ours. I
hate them. Hate them. Yeah, I don't know how they exist enough.
Yeah, it's not like that.Sorry. One more thing. Having
(16:25):
said that, I think all peopleare complicated, and we are all flawed
in so many ways, and theflaws are not necessarily a bad thing.
They're just us. And that wasthe thing. You know, you're flawed,
So what you know, you havea story to tell, and you're
(16:45):
not there as a moral example ofwhatever. You're just a human being and
you have a story that's worth tellingand listening to. Having said that,
one of my readers recent read thatwhich Lady end said, I think I
know her, you know, she'sso real to me because this person,
(17:07):
this reader is in her sixties,seventies eight, you know, that kind
of thing, and she went throughthose kind of that that period when the
British were here and you wanted her, you know, a white husband and
stuff like that. Sorry. Yeah, I think it was very enjoyable to
read them because you did feel that, you know, these people that are
(17:30):
very disapproving auntie, you know,like the cousin that is arranged married to
marry somebody else, you know.So you know, it's very much stories
based in our society, and thatwas what's nice about them. But as
they moved they became a little bitdarker because they're talking about the cut present
realities. Yeah, since you're talkingabout complicated characters, Yeah, I'd like
(17:53):
to ask you about complicated relationships.There's a lot of complicated relationships in your
story. I found some of themost complicated ones to be the ones about
parents and children and what they oweeach other basically. So can you maybe
run through a few of the issuesthat you bring up in your stories and
(18:17):
give give us some thoughts about relationshipbetween parents and their children. There's a
lot about parents and children. Almostevery story is about that. I don't
know I think it's because people arenot always parents all the time. They're
human beings, the men, they'rewomen, they have their own agenda.
They're not constantly in that role asparents. And then sometimes it clashes.
(18:41):
In Chadren, the mother obviously wantedto be proud of her children, and
it was very strong, very importantto her that her children were successful.
Their success was a tribute to herabilities, of her sacrifice and everything.
And then she gets the husband isCRISTI said, and her children who is
(19:03):
not? Who is slow? Whocan never be? And that's one part.
The other part also is the narratorrealizes that all the time he was
so busy feeling sorry for children,feeling he has to he had to protect
him, look after him, henever once valued him. And that was
(19:26):
the realization when it was too late. And I thought, that's an important
thing to say, because when youhave special children, you feel the need
to look after them and you know, protect them. We never quite value
them. It's hard to value them. And he realized that he never valued
his son, and that's why hehad to atone for that. Yeah,
(19:49):
I think it brings back to yousaying that every what are the stories worth
telling? Right, everybody has astory to tell, and there's a lot
of stories in your collection that isabout that, you know, like the
invisible people so to speak, right, like the maids for instance, and
like one or two of your maidstories, I thought, yeah, you
know, like you don't really sometimeseven see them as they they're just part
(20:14):
of the furniture almost, you know, like sometimes in households, right,
and special children, women at thefringes, you know, like what you
call ye know, I love thefact that what is stab male references the
Dolly and Ritas, you know,the fallen women, you know, and
Tamil people will recognize that, youknow they in the sixties all the wicked
women, but the night club dancersand as it were not sort of doing
(20:37):
that always Dolly or Rita. Theywere very bad people. I mean,
good Hindu people are not called Dollyor Rita. You know. It's a
direct reference to that. Yeah.Yeah, so I can't be earned or
something. Yeah. So yeah,So maybe tell us a little bit about
(20:59):
why you feel that it's good togive a voice to these so called invisible
people, you know, because Ifeel like after I read stories like that,
I'm like, you know, shouldhave a conversation with like the people
who I work with and things likethat, you know, because it's so
easy to just get so carried onof your own lives that you don't see
how you affect those people around you. You know that this grunting because in
(21:21):
the in the story called the Invisible, the weight says, when the work
is done and the family gets together, I'm invisible. But this last week,
one of the readers told me he'sa father. He looks after his
kid the whole day because the momgoes to work. His house husband,
(21:41):
as it were, when the momcomes home, he becomes invisible, you
know. And he happened to readthis story and he just hit him.
I know exactly how she feels,because when the mom is there, that's
all the kid wants. I've doneall they know that the groundwork, and
(22:03):
I'm fine, I'll go away andI become invisible, is it. I
think a lot of housewives feel itthat for a very long time, Right,
yeah, I think I think thatThat's something that really struck me while
I was reading this is how wellyou describe families, and you know,
(22:26):
like the conflicts that exist, youknow, behind the happy family images that
we try to project to other people. Right, You have some pretty unorthodox
families in here as well, butevery one of them has their own flaws,
their own conflicts, their own problems, and it's it's it's it's tragic
how people tend to hurt the oneswho are closest to them, Right.
(22:52):
And and then you go on todescribing the Malaysian family. What I saw
is the Malaysian family where you havea lot of intertwined Indian, Chinese and
Malay communities families, right and yeah, can you maybe talk a little bit
about the things that you've explored inyour stories about being part of the Malaysian
(23:15):
family. I'm not sure how toanswer that question. I think what I
can say is that I have listenedto people. Now, I listened to
people to talk about the families.So these are lived experiences. I didn't
have to create anything off the topof my head. They were there and
(23:36):
the only thing was to put themdown authentically. And honestly, I think
all families are complicated, All relationshipsare complicated. Nothing comes easy. If
it comes easy, always comes ata price, you know. So,
and what else trying to tell todo show was, for instance, in
(23:56):
when we are young. It's froma narrator is Malay, and I needed
her to be tired of this Indianboy feeling victimized, because that's real.
You can't you can't play the victimgame, even if it's real, even
if it's you know, deserved withother people feeling tired, especially those who
(24:22):
are not feel experiencing it. Sohe's a double aged thought. You know,
I don't know what you're going through, but I'm tired of You're talking
about it all the time, butthe moment it touches me, I get
pretty upset. Thank you, youknow that kind of thing. Yeah,
yeah, I think that's I mean, that hit me when I was reading
your stories. I mean giving cutreels in the corridor, you know,
friendships and how innocent we were whenwe were younger, you know, like
(24:45):
who cares whatever, whatever race youare, religion, right, you're friends.
And then you realize, you know, like for me because obviously I'm
Malay, so I grew up justkind of yeah, I know this is
what is given to me. Inever really think about it. You know.
It's only after I started working andgoing to you know, for the
studies, that I realized that,oh, not everybody has the same opportunity.
(25:08):
It's not everybody, you know,Like, there's a lot of things
I take for granted. And Ithink these are very important stories in a
way, you know, because youhave to remind yourself again the privilege,
but also any other end of thespectrum is that you know, how people
get on with life and not asyou say, I played with the privilege.
Yeah, yeah, So I mean, do you think this is very
like for younger people who are readingthis book? How do you think I
(25:33):
mean, has anybody come up toyou and tell you like, oh I
never realized this or I've always feltthis way, or what they do.
I hope my children are reading thisstory so that they understand their privilege,
you know what I mean. Ihope, I hope they do. Would
be wonderful. I think we needto speak to the younger people. We
need to have conversations with the youngerpeople voice and girls, because they're the
(25:56):
future. And I was trying tovery very hard not to write to victimhood
because you don't need that. Youknow, we already that's that's an easy
path to follow, to go down, you know, the victims. No,
It's like there's a there's one storyhere where the victim is as much
a perpetrator. Many many stories theperpetrators also a victim. The victims are
(26:21):
also perpetrators. The reality of life. You never the villain of your own
story. Yeah right, You're nevergoing to be the villain. You're always
going to be the hero. Yeah. Do we want to have us read
something another excerpt or do you haveone more question? Yeah? Okay,
that's I think that's a good placeto segue into another excerpt. Okay,
(26:45):
we're talking about mates. Let methis is a bit if we have time,
little talk about something like it.But this is a little, you
know, a little bit of background. Rering thought she came in legally,
but she's actually illegal. And thenafter eight months in a very very abusive
home, she runs away. Butshe runs away with money and a phone
(27:08):
so that she will not be notreport the abuse to the police. Okay,
And she knows exactly where to gobecause being in donations, they have
their contacts, they know exactly wherethat the underground network is and that and
those networks exist. I found out, you know, they do exist.
So she's here and this is she'stalking to her mother in Indonesia. When
(27:40):
I speak to you next, Itell you I'm already cleaning several houses a
week. You are relieved. Wedon't mention her previous conversation. I speak
of my flats that I share withtwo other women, miRNA and Tinny,
both illegals. They work in aChinese restaurant. I tell her they were
in Malaysia for years. I don'ttell you, though, that quickly enough
(28:04):
I realized their lovers. How youmight ask, I'll tell you the way
Tinny slides a hand around Mirana's waistwith such tenderness that I almost weep for
no one has ever touched me thatway. Or when they're sitting on the
sofa with Tinny's feet on Mirana's lap. They're doing nothing, you understand,
(28:26):
they're not even talking, but thatintimacy, I feel it like a sunburst
inside me. There was a timewhen I when I would have been disgusted
at such things between women and women. Mah, except now that there's been
no loving in my life for solong, I'm gentler in my thought,
with my thoughts, I don't knowhow kind you'll be, so I cut
(28:49):
off my own tongue. I don'thave time. Now tell you what my
employers. But I learned this onthe billboards along the streets. They show
everybody being best ends with each other. But the Chinese, Indians, Malays
they live in their own bubbles andthe politicians make sure they don't trust each
other too much. Still, theyall have one thing in common. The
(29:11):
despises all of us, invisible creaturesthat live below the surface. From Indonesia,
Bangladesh, Menma, Cambodia, India, Petnam, Philippines, they despise
us. You think it's funny,you know, when you think that Indians
and Chinese were once immigrants themselves,you think they were kind to us.
(29:34):
miRNA knows it all. In thiscountry, all the chest thumping about race
and religion is just that empty sounds. In the end, only money counts,
rering and someone to blame when thingsgo wrong. Thank you. That
was very heart help. I meanthat's one of the qualities I love for
(29:59):
the story is in here that thatyou you're able to really give us a
sense of how people really go throughdifficult things, you know, And I
think and one of the I think, I think we all need a little
bit of a sobering when it comesof maids, especially I think yes,
like just like in in the othercase you were talking about before, we
tend to only see outside of thestory because we we all have stories about
(30:22):
maids run away, you know,bids who are lazy maids who don't you
know, we don't live up tothe contract, but we don't we forget
that, you know, they areoften victimized. We like to go into
some writing and reading story yes questions, if you don't mind, this is
there's something that we like to dobecause we think that, you know,
like we like to get a senseof what it's like to be a writer.
(30:45):
We like to try to put ourselvesinto your shoes. So let's say,
let's say bad story for example,how did you write it? And
how does a concept of the storycome to you? And how do you
start? And how do you knowwhen the story ends? I think a
story comes to me for me asanyway. Perhaps it's an idea, a
(31:06):
picture, a word, a phrase, and it's you know, someone has
told you something he stuck. Itgets stuck in your head and you think,
hey, there's a story there.I wonder how, I wonder why,
I wonder what if? And thenit just works on you as like
I told you, when you're cookingand cleaning and sleeping and reading, you
know, it just works in yourmind and then you feel, okay,
(31:30):
it's time to put it down.Then you put it down. It never
works, it looks horrible. Andthen you work on it. But you
know there is some kind of form, so you work and you work and
you work on it. And inmy case, it takes you sometimes,
you know, zillions of drafts untilyou you really you know it's working.
In my case, because I'm soegoistic, I think every time I think
(31:53):
a story is done and I leaveit, you leave it a site to
ferment, and then you realize,oh god, it's sucks, you know,
and then you go back and workon it. This time been more
truth, more honesty. So Ifind it very often I am changing the
stories, the endings of the stories, because I have to stop being so
(32:15):
full of myself. You know,how has winning the Commonwealth Short Story Competition
changed your life and changed Because thisis a question that a lot of my
friends wanted me to ask you aswell, because I think a lot of
people aspire to write short stories tobe writers. And yeah, so how
has it been for you, Ihas you know, like that was amazing
(32:37):
what the wind did, because it'san international contest, what it did,
in my mind was a validate thefact that I am a writer. So
get off your butt and proofs thatyou are a right Maybe you've been given
this recognition. Now you have tohonor that. The thing about me is
(32:58):
that I've always wanted to be awriter. I just thought, you know,
you just sit down and you're writeand you're done and never need to
such hard work. But I alsoattended a huge number of writing courses,
creative writing courses. Sharon Baker wasthe one who introduced me to my first
classes, and then after that Iwent off to other countries. One that
(33:22):
fundamentally changed how I looked at workand writing was Sprague, the product summer
program Post Writers was incredible. Sowhen I want this, it was time
to honor the white teachers, honorthe craft, and really start writing something
(33:43):
seriously, you know, not notlike you know you're dithering and you're like
a dially talented you're just right whenyou can, when you're not too tired.
It didn't work, and that thatwould happen. The common worth opened
doors both externally and internally in myown mind. My mother Pat two was
also published in this American anthology forcollege students, and when people said they
(34:09):
could relate to part two regardless ofracial or geographical boundaries, that was,
you know, affirmation that you've gotsomething. Can you just start working on
it? Yeah, that's amazing,that's that's so inspiring. Actually, what
happens in one of those retreats isit lots so very intelligent people wafting around
(34:30):
and sharing. I know, justme asthma. It's crazy. I was
always very often the oldest person there. Okay, but Sharon's class scharents extremely
nurturing teach, and I think it'svery very good for to begin creative writing.
The summer program was organized by thisAmerican professor universities, and okay,
(34:55):
they were not nurturing. They werevery they're treating you as writers. You
have producing a work, and Ineed to tell you within this space of
three weeks or four weeks, howgood you are, how good you can
be, and push you and sothere used to be this enormous energy because
(35:15):
you have got all your mentors arepublished writers and university lecturers. To die
back was amazing I'm not sure thatyou heard. He's Stu Dieback is one
of the foremost short story writers andteachers of creative writing and a lecturer himself.
You know, whenever he used torun classes would be like standing room
(35:37):
only because he was that good andhe was he would did at one end
of the table. In this particularyear when we had very few students,
you said, at one end ofthe table. And Richard Cutters was also
a poet, writer, playwright,everything, and lecturer would say at the
other end, and they will lookat work and then they would throw in
examples of other work. And thedynamics you just grew as a writer because
(36:00):
you're listening to experts, the peoplewho who loved with a passion what they're
doing. And you can't beat that, you know, it really just can't
beat that. It is enormous creativeenergy. And of course Prague is such
a beautiful place. You know,you walk around and you you just get
(36:21):
that those wives and we die forabout three weeks, you know, that
kind of thing. And and weused do readings in this wonderful bookshop called
Shakespeare and Sons. It's really aquaint bookshop, you know, so that
atmosphere. You can't get that whenyou're sitting at home with your pile of
(36:43):
clothes to be folded, gosh,and you're cooking to be done and the
kids yelling and your house. Youcan't do that. Really, that was
a gift. I had to honorthat gift. There's time I started honoring
gifts because PRAG was special. Whatthey did was they lacked my face.
(37:04):
I think you know, they letme come in every year and they waived
the face. Others I wouldn't havebeen able to afford it. And so
that was a gift. Yeah,and then I made use of it.
Yeah, that's that's great that thewriting community can also be very I mean
writers in general are very solitary people, right, you know, like you
always see that there's lots of selfdoubt and all that. But then when
(37:28):
you find the right writing communities,yes, it's quite wonderful. Any tips,
because you also teach short a storywriting. I met you at the
Language House and I actually wanted tolook for your class, but then I
was teaching scriptwriting and that. Right, So if you can give people three
tips for budding writers in the audienceor I mean, I know published writers
(37:50):
here as well. But yes,what's the sarahs I don't know, that's
hard. It was a Sara secretsource of writing, a secret sauce can
Amber. I think you have toin the first place, start writing,
and start writing without the editor atyour back telling you rubbish, rubbis shrubby
(38:14):
shrubbish. You know that's really veryhelpful. You know you're in a critic
yeast syndrome. Yeah, that's right. I don't know. I I think
you just have to embrace life andbe everything in life teaches you. You
know, everyone in life and youand you remember those lessons, you know,
(38:37):
like the made these are not imaginedexperiences that they lived experiences. This
I don't have made at what time? Made who comes once a week,
But she's got stories. She's there. You just listen. You listen to
them. I think that's the thing. You listen to lived experiences and you
(38:58):
write them as honestly as ow thegood tips. Can you tell us about
your reading life and what what areyou like as a reader? Do you
do you like to read the samethings you write or are you inspired by
anybody in particular? I read Igot that Christie, I used to read
I got that Christie, I'm ahorrible uh. I love directive fiction.
(39:23):
I'm you know. I love directivefiction, British directive fiction, and right
now I love Louis Spenny. I'vementioned this before because Luis Spenny writes directive
stories and a small town. Yeah, in a small town. But she's
got so much of soul, somuch of heart. It's not the crime
(39:45):
that's so important as the motivations,the people and and so on. I
think I love that because at theheart of any story is a person of
people. And every time I reada good book, I read it for
(40:06):
enjoyment. Then I go back againand read for the craft. I think
this is my learning curve I learned. I read for the craft to see
how they managed to convey what theywant to convey and why it remains so
fresh. It makes such an impact. In my point, I read for
the craft. Yeah, so anyplans on doing it? Who done it?
(40:28):
I can't. I can't write,you know, directive stories or whatever
to say in my life. ButI just loved them. I know people
really loved them too. I lovethem too. Yeah. At this point,
Honey and Diana are open questions tothe audience. I will let you
know what the questions are before heranswers. First question from the audiences.
(40:52):
Do you have a small circle ofreaders to give you feedback when you have
a draft? Not not the firstdrafts. It's not fair to let them
read the first drafts, and notbecause they're all mostly awful, but when
they read a little ritual level whereyou're comfortable with the quality, and then
you need feedback. Yeah. Areyou always satisfied with the end results or
(41:16):
do you feel that maybe I couldhave changed things a little tiny tweaks?
Yes, tiny tweaks works a phrase, but mostly you know when a story
is done? Yeah, many manytimes I've written a story, finish the
(41:36):
ending, put it away, andfound that, no, that's not That's
not how it's supposed to be.It's two commonplaces, two stereotypes. Sto
comfortable is to sleep, you know, as it were, and you need
something different, then you go backto it again. Do you get someone
to read the same story but ina different draft? People, No,
(42:01):
I let someone read. It's usuallylike the finest final towards the final draft
if you've given the initial draft,or it's really very painful for them because
it's awful. You know, shemay lose friends that way. Do you
(42:24):
ever feel unsure sometimes that you haveno right to tell a story? There
is no element of stealing a story, and and there's no one single story.
I would have heard a line ora thought, and then someone else,
and then someone else, and thenyou put it all together. So
it's never ever one person's story,you know, never, as far as
(42:49):
I can imagine, there's no oneperson who has done, who has experienced
everything. Maybe on one line shemay have said one line to me and
I think about it, you know, or like this thing when I was
writing The Invisibles, you know,the mates boss said, the Waits are
(43:09):
very clever people. You know,you think she's knew should just come down
from Indonesia. But when she go, when we go to the pasta Malam,
she says she she's salams other people. And then there's a piece of
paper there with her telephone number.And that was how I knew about how
they learned to connect with each other. So it does not It was something
(43:32):
I heard and added that into thestory, but it didn't really belong to
anybody. How do you navigate writingabout racial and ethnic complexities and yet not
offend. No, not so muchoffend. How do you You will definitely
offend. But I tried very veryhard not to write to victimpod. It's
(43:53):
so easy being an Indian to say, look at me and marginalized, I'm
this, I'm dead, you hateme. You never gave me a chance,
you know. But I need toshow ef I right to that.
Then I'm playing the game and Idon't ever want to do that. You
need to write to deliberately, notright to victimhood so very much in my
(44:16):
stories. In the last story,for instance, this girl is called a
cling and she stunned. No onehas ever called her cling because she is
you know, educated, beautiful,exotic. Just this that she thought cling
is only for the you know,the gangsters and the drug pushes and the
(44:37):
world working class people. She wasshocked. So it's very easy to go
along that line where I had toshow that when her mother was alive,
you know, when when when justgrowing up, her mother would get angry
when the father brought his office workersare factory workers for lunch. But she's
(44:59):
like, I don't know these people. What is the religion, what is
the cast, what is the race? How will I feed them? You
know, I wanted to show thatbigotry doesn't belong to one particular race,
so you don't can't write to victimher then, you know, but people,
you lose credibility when you do that. That's on your bayside table at
(45:20):
the moment. What are you readingat the moment? Sorry? Wi while
waiting for people to collect your thoughts, because some of your faces this is
like the weare book nets as well, so very people. Okay, I'm
rereading this book called brother and keepon pushing this moment, Brotherless Night.
You're reading it as well. Okay. It's by Webcanation, London, and
I've read it. I'm rereading itfor the craft now. She writes with
(45:45):
the civil war in Sri Lanka andit's absolutely awesome. Her style, her
writing is so awesome because everyone isa victim and everyone isn't is a perpetrator.
There's no good person there. Thiswhole civil voice is so messed up
that everyone is a perpetrator of somethingor other. And no one said the
(46:07):
good guys are the bad guys aswell, you know, and I liked
that honesty. You know, It'slike when you read that books she's staring
out a heart and putting it.Then I thought, wow, that's a
fantastic right. That's a lot ofcourage, isn't it to actually do something
like that. Yeah, any plansfor a novel, I'm not sure I'm
(46:30):
good enough. Novels required some mathematicalability to keep track at you know,
you know, you ask her,it's a novel, you ask her,
it's a huge, you know thing. You've got to keep track and and
uh, maintain interest and you know, keep track of characters and the actions
(46:52):
and the places aesthetics. I'm verybad at that match, you know,
And I was afraid that I loseinterests. That's the other thing, you
know. Yeah, well, youknow your novel, if you write it,
I have to say that that thequality are you're asking about before about
(47:13):
you know, picking up characters inthe story and then and then taking telling
a story about some of that isin the book. So there's a lot
of intercollection. I actually thought thatthere would be more of that. I
was kind of disappointed towards the endwhen we when we moved away from from
the original stories, and I thought, oh, I really wanted to know
more about that. So I doget that part of people said, you
must write about Kitchi bay Yea islovely. I need to write about him.
(47:37):
Yeah, I knew him, soagain authentic experiences, you know.
Yeah, and it did tell mewhen I was a kid, when I
was sixteen years so Kitchi by alocal gangster for those who haven't read Local
Gangster, you know. And hesaid, he told me, called me
about my name and said, ifany boy tries to be funny with you,
you're telling me a kitcher by Sisterwritened for life. See, I
(48:02):
thought that that could have been veryeasily translated into a novel just just you
know, just take all these storiesand put them together, just reshape them
in a coter way. I think. I think that's the premise of John
at Club. Actually she started asas story in short stories, and her
editor actually suggested to any time towork into a novel. So there you
(48:23):
go. That's that's a possibility tohave the startings. You have the chapters
already, so each of those storiesa chapter, right right, that's right.
Okay, thank you everybody for beingsuch a great audience. So at
thank you, thank you, thankyou much, thank you, and thank
you very much for sharing your storiesand tearing your experiences with it. Thank
you for your collection. I lovedit personally as a reader, I love
(48:46):
so much. We hope you enjoyedthe interview. As usual, you can
find Tooble nuts talking at TV andT Books on Instagram, two Booknuts Talking
on Facebook and TBNT part on Twitter. You can reach out to us at
(49:07):
booknuts talking at gmail dot com.Have a great bookish one, folks,
Hey, friends and book cluvers.It's Stephanie, the producer of Two book
Nuts Talking. I'm here to introducethe episode this week, which is an
interview between Diana and Honey, anaward winning short story writer Sarah's Manicam.
This interview was recorded live and litBooks and goes into her short story collection
My Mother Patou Enjoy. Okay,warm, Welcome to everyone. Thank you
(00:35):
so much for coming down here ona Saturday morning and spending some time with
us. I'm Diana Young, andnext to me, this love lady next
to me is my co host ormy Two book Nets Talking podcast. Okay,
and we basically we just heard outabout books. That's our job and
we're very very happy to be invitedhere today by lady minhan to come down
(01:00):
and get this opportunity to talk toSarah's. Yes, he's batrified. Actually,
oh just look at me and lookat how awkward I am. You'll
be fine next to me. Okay. So just a little bit about Sarah's
before we start. Okay, So, Sarah's Manicam has worked as a teacher,
(01:21):
a teacher trainer, copywriter, businessEnglish trainer. Bear with me,
guys, it's a very long resume, copy editor, writer of textbook,
school workbooks and copytable books. Thisis a storied life here all while writing
short stories at night. So hervarious work experiences enable insights into characters and
(01:42):
life experiences, shaping the authenticity whichmarks her stories. And she actually won
the k To Memorial Award for LiterallyExcellence in twenty seventeen and the Regional Prize
for Asia in the twenty nineteen CommonwealthShort Story Contest. Both of these award
winning stories are included in this anthology. We are here to talk about today,
(02:07):
Well, warm, welcome to you, Sarah's. Thank you, and
so many of my friends are here. Thank you, Thank you so much
for this support. Thank you.I really really value all of you guys.
So how about we have a tasterof your book? Yes, So
(02:28):
what we're gonna do today is thatSarah's will read an excerpt first Soday,
all of you who have not readher wonderful stories can have a taster,
and then we'll get sub chatting goingon. I'm going to read the first
paragraph of My Mother Pattu because itwon the prize, and then I'll go
on a little bit inside to givean idea of relationships my mother Pattu.
(02:54):
My mother pat To graized our liveslargely with her absence, for which my
father and I, to a lesserextant Grandma, were profoundly grateful. She
descended upon us once a month tocollect her allowance from Grandma, loose the
pantry, curse my father, andcuff me on the ear. We breathed
(03:16):
a collective sigh of relief when shewent away, except for Grandma, who
wept in secret for the daughter shecould not stand to lift with another.
Very brief When I was ten,I asked pot if she loved me,
love you, Lalita. She drawledstupid question, as stupid and ugly as
(03:39):
you. I was fourteen when Ihad you, that big horrid thing that
swelled my stomach, gave me heartburnand cost me my life. She cost
me my life, mamma, Butto insist it, everything came to end
with you, idiot girl, anddon't forget and hours of pain before you
were born. I was shocked atfirst that a mother would not automatically love
(04:03):
her baby, but it was asecret relief to hear her words. I
was free then to hate Pato withoutguilt. But was that vial that I
wretched out after each of her visits. She was screaming in my head whenever
I could not answer her quickly enough, receiving a sharp slap as reward.
(04:27):
She was the poison, leaching myblood, my bones. And that was
a real nightmare. For if youdiscounted a few details like my hair,
skin color, or eyes, Iwas a dead ringer for her. I
could not bear the horror of it. There's nothing of my father in me,
nothing, for he was not myfather. Everyone knew that story.
(04:49):
I knew it soon enough, inthe way children absorbed stories, almost to
osmosis. So Pato never talked aboutit. Nodded right now, thank you,
very wow. We can just listento you read your stories all day.
How does it feel like, thewhole collection of your stories in your
(05:12):
hands? Pretty just it's a thrill. It's also a validation people think it's
good enough to be published. No, that kind of thing I was.
I was talking to my book clubthe other day and I said, I
was describing your stories to them,and I said they were like bond bonds,
you know, you can pick andyou eat it. And some of
(05:33):
them are spicy, some a bitbitter. Some of them are sweet,
but I was so often there's alittle bit of glass in it, and
he goes, you know, they'rereally sharp, and I find that and
I like the way that it's atthe beginning. You start a bit.
You ease people into your the storyline. You know, you have you you
(05:54):
you tell people about Mumbang. There'sa community that so you kind of feel
quite when you first read your stories, but then you really go like,
ooh, you know, you're reallynot sentimental about your characters, you know,
so tell us a little bit aboutwhy the setting of a small town
is somewhere that you feel it's likea backdrop for your stories. Oh,
(06:15):
mum Bang, that's an easy question. Mum Bang doesn't exist. I could
make it up, you know,and maybe it's like kl or call a
slang or you need to get thefacts right, the streets, the places.
But I could create Mumbang and thatgave me the freedom to not be
blocked down by accurate. Accuracy isso important. You can't get things wrong
(06:40):
now people will check. So mumBang doesn't exist. So that's wonderful.
That is actually a something that isvery important. You're really a story you
always be questioning, Oh, letme go check it see if that's very
sidely? Yes, yes, andthen you sometimes right just always get it
(07:00):
wrong, you know, and thenit really puts you off when they get
it wrong because it's something that canre teckt. Yeah. But that's why
a lot of authors maybe take alot of time to write stories, because
you have to be researching so much, and you have to be careful about
everything that you put up there.And that's probably why. Okay, I
have a question that's a little bitrelated to that. So since Mumbang is
(07:25):
a creative place, a fantasy place, if you will, I'd like to
talk about the fantasy in your inyour stories, and by that I mean
the stories that people tell themselves andothers about who they are, right,
and that quality of you know,fiction that we that we we've into our
own lives all the time. Okay, can you talk about you know,
(07:46):
because you put a lot of thatinto your stories, right, And I
was very struck by by the way, like you know, like for example,
in My Mother Pack two, shebelieves certain things about her life and
what she was told and what herdaughter did to her and her daughta see
is completely differently. Can you tellus a little bit about that quality of
fiction and fantasy in the way thatpeople live their lives and what that means
(08:11):
to you as a storyteller. Asa storyteller, it is stories took a
long time to write, because youknow, I'm that slow slow you know.
In the beginning, every time Istart at my stories, I wanted
to put in my moral stand,my authorial ownership, and say, hey,
(08:31):
hey, hey, you behave thisway. This is the way the
story is going to start, thisis the way it's going to end.
I know exactly what's going to happento these characters, you know, and
I'm going to teach them a lessonbecause I'm so good. And it never
worked. It absolutely never worked,because you've got to let the story.
The characters speak their own stories.It's not about you, it's about them.
(08:56):
And that's why I took the longesttime ever, because I was trying
to push and ever learned the lesson. It be a long long time to
learn that you have to let thestory the characters. You have to respect
them enough to give them ownership oftheir stories and and and to tell their
(09:18):
stories the way they wanted it tobe almost no authorial interference. I tried
very hard, because the moment youstart pushing characters into situations, then your
own bigotry, your own prejudices,your own you know, believes, take
over. And that's and the storiesare not about you there, but other
(09:39):
people there, but lived experiences.But they're not trying to tell you how
clever you are, how good youare, or see me, I'm such
a good writer. It's nothing aboutyou. Is about the stories and the
stories the characters have to stand up, which is why, you know,
the moment I tried to interfere,they all became figures, honestly, you
(10:03):
know, and they were I wasbought by them, they were bought by
me, you know. So yeah, you have to honor. I think
we have to honor and respect thecharacters to let them tell their own stories.
So they're always The stories caught meby surprise because they were not they
were not going or they never endedthe way I thought they would end.
(10:26):
I thought they ought to end.You know. Is this why short story
is sort of like the medium thatyou think is the best way is because
you have all these characters coveroting inyour head, right, how do you
know when a story is done.I mean, I know there is a
bit of a craft question, buthow do you know when your story you
have told the story that you wantedto tell, do your characters tell them
(10:48):
tell tell it to you. Okay, there's the first story, you know,
number one Road, M and Lane. I thought it was done when
I wrote it, I thought itwas done. But when I really looked
at it for this collection, Ifound no, it was not done.
(11:09):
That's not the way the story ends, ought to end, ought to be,
And so I changed the second halfof it because the characterist like me,
No, it's not working. It'snot working. You're trying to be
too goody, you're not too good, and you're trying to push yourself in.
That is a problem I find,Is it right? I think I'm
so clever and you know, somoral and upright. I got to tell
(11:33):
everybody how to live and it's notwrong. It doesn't work at all.
And for every story it is ait is this task that you tell yourself
let the story speak for itself.I think that's a very interesting thing to
think about. And also that remindsme of something that you've previly previously said
(11:54):
in interviews that you when on theprocess of writing My Mother Part two,
you're not the same person at theend of the story as you were at
the beginning of it. Can youaltrate on that? What do you mean
by that Part two was different?I mean I think it worked because it
won a price. But the personwho started writing Part two was not the
(12:18):
person who ended it. Who sohowho wrote the last draft? When I
started Part two, I was angry. I was talking of this child abuser
who needed to be punished, andwe needed to be shown her whatever,
and she needed to be punished,She needed to be shown that she was
a beast, a monster. Thefirst one gazillion drafts were like that,
(12:43):
and it never moved the very fairly, I think gazillion drafts to finish the
story just tell you how slow andhow I never learned my own lessons,
you know, And it took timetoo many years. Part it took the
longest a number of time. Allowwas time to finish because I was so
full of myself. And Part twowas you know a mass of people whom
(13:09):
I had known, people, womenwho I heard stories about them. I
knew people like Part two and Ihated them because they were they abused their
children, abused their families, andI had to learn to step back and
say, I'm I forgive you.Can you forgive me for this hatred that
(13:30):
I have for you? And oncethat that forgiveness And also in the meantime,
your life happened. I was working, And you know, you go
through life and love and grieve andloss and sorrow and whatever, and you
change as a person. You're nolonger the same person, no longer the
same moralistic, harsh, hard person. You're gentler. You're softer with yourself
(13:54):
and with others. When I wasat that state, when I was gentler,
then I could write Part two theway she deserved to be described and
deserved to be told. Then Ithink she sort of wrote wrote it herself.
Oh yeah, I mean, Imean writing is an act of empathy,
isn't it. When you when youunderstand your characters and where and also
(14:16):
but you're not trying very you're tryingalso not to empathize too much because you
don't want to be all over them. Yes, yes, yeah, that's
not Munjake, and yeah, yeah, you know mun Jake and your characters.
But at the same time, youknow, you got to also tell
the story that feels real right tothe characteristic. It has to be authentic
(14:37):
to the characters and to the story. They don't need a pat on the
back, They need the storage tobe told honestly, openly. Yeah,
I mean, I mean that's whatI I. It occurred to me I
was reading your book how much Ilove the female characters and how they're unapologie
I think in some ways, butin other ways, right you again,
(14:58):
you don't glaze them over like youknow you So you have characters like Sitta
and Sundari and you know, Judith, and these are all some of them
are quite Gothic, even like youknow the Witch that story. I thought,
oh, this is really very gothic, you know, like this woman
who lives in a house by herself, living in her memories. You know.
So tell us a little bit onyou were you were already telling us
(15:20):
about how you did Patu. Butdo you feel that this kind of female
narrative, you know, like howsometimes you read and people feel it's really
hard to write them authentically, right, How how long do they covert in
your head before before you know,I'm out on the time. But I
think as a writer, what Ican tell you is that you're not sitting
(15:43):
down and thinking about them. Theidea comes in your head about this person
or this story or this picture orthis word sentence comes in, and then
you're going through life. You're cooking, you're washing, you're drying the clothes,
you're scolding the kids, you're fightingwith you know what, whoever,
and all the time that story isgoing on in your it is sort of
(16:04):
and then it comes out in bitsand pieces. I hate people who say,
oh, I just sat down andwrote the story into ours. I
hate them. Hate them. Yeah, I don't know how they exist enough.
Yeah, it's not like that.Sorry. One more thing. Having
(16:25):
said that, I think all peopleare complicated, and we are all flawed
in so many ways, and theflaws are not necessarily a bad thing.
They're just us. And that wasthe thing. You know, you're flawed,
So what you know, you havea story to tell, and you're
(16:45):
not there as a moral example ofwhatever. You're just a human being and
you have a story that's worth tellingand listening to. Having said that,
one of my readers recent read thatwhich Lady end said, I think I
know her, you know, she'sso real to me because this person,
(17:07):
this reader is in her sixties,seventies eight, you know, that kind
of thing, and she went throughthose kind of that that period when the
British were here and you wanted her, you know, a white husband and
stuff like that. Sorry. Yeah, I think it was very enjoyable to
read them because you did feel that, you know, these people that are
(17:30):
very disapproving auntie, you know,like the cousin that is arranged married to
marry somebody else, you know.So you know, it's very much stories
based in our society, and thatwas what's nice about them. But as
they moved they became a little bitdarker because they're talking about the cut present
realities. Yeah, since you're talkingabout complicated characters, Yeah, I'd like
(17:53):
to ask you about complicated relationships.There's a lot of complicated relationships in your
story. I found some of themost complicated ones to be the ones about
parents and children and what they oweeach other basically. So can you maybe
run through a few of the issuesthat you bring up in your stories and
(18:17):
give give us some thoughts about relationshipbetween parents and their children. There's a
lot about parents and children. Almostevery story is about that. I don't
know I think it's because people arenot always parents all the time. They're
human beings, the men, they'rewomen, they have their own agenda.
They're not constantly in that role asparents. And then sometimes it clashes.
(18:41):
In Chadren, the mother obviously wantedto be proud of her children, and
it was very strong, very importantto her that her children were successful.
Their success was a tribute to herabilities, of her sacrifice and everything.
And then she gets the husband isCRISTI said, and her children who is
(19:03):
not? Who is slow? Whocan never be? And that's one part.
The other part also is the narratorrealizes that all the time he was
so busy feeling sorry for children,feeling he has to he had to protect
him, look after him, henever once valued him. And that was
(19:26):
the realization when it was too late. And I thought, that's an important
thing to say, because when youhave special children, you feel the need
to look after them and you know, protect them. We never quite value
them. It's hard to value them. And he realized that he never valued
his son, and that's why hehad to atone for that. Yeah,
(19:49):
I think it brings back to yousaying that every what are the stories worth
telling? Right, everybody has astory to tell, and there's a lot
of stories in your collection that isabout that, you know, like the
invisible people so to speak, right, like the maids for instance, and
like one or two of your maidstories, I thought, yeah, you
know, like you don't really sometimeseven see them as they they're just part
(20:14):
of the furniture almost, you know, like sometimes in households, right,
and special children, women at thefringes, you know, like what you
call ye know, I love thefact that what is stab male references the
Dolly and Ritas, you know,the fallen women, you know, and
Tamil people will recognize that, youknow they in the sixties all the wicked
women, but the night club dancersand as it were not sort of doing
(20:37):
that always Dolly or Rita. Theywere very bad people. I mean,
good Hindu people are not called Dollyor Rita. You know. It's a
direct reference to that. Yeah.Yeah, so I can't be earned or
something. Yeah. So yeah,So maybe tell us a little bit about
(20:59):
why you feel that it's good togive a voice to these so called invisible
people, you know, because Ifeel like after I read stories like that,
I'm like, you know, shouldhave a conversation with like the people
who I work with and things likethat, you know, because it's so
easy to just get so carried onof your own lives that you don't see
how you affect those people around you. You know that this grunting because in
(21:21):
the in the story called the Invisible, the weight says, when the work
is done and the family gets together, I'm invisible. But this last week,
one of the readers told me he'sa father. He looks after his
kid the whole day because the momgoes to work. His house husband,
(21:41):
as it were, when the momcomes home, he becomes invisible, you
know. And he happened to readthis story and he just hit him.
I know exactly how she feels,because when the mom is there, that's
all the kid wants. I've doneall they know that the groundwork, and
(22:03):
I'm fine, I'll go away andI become invisible, is it. I
think a lot of housewives feel itthat for a very long time, Right,
yeah, I think I think thatThat's something that really struck me while
I was reading this is how wellyou describe families, and you know,
(22:26):
like the conflicts that exist, youknow, behind the happy family images that
we try to project to other people. Right, You have some pretty unorthodox
families in here as well, butevery one of them has their own flaws,
their own conflicts, their own problems, and it's it's it's it's tragic
how people tend to hurt the oneswho are closest to them, Right.
(22:52):
And and then you go on todescribing the Malaysian family. What I saw
is the Malaysian family where you havea lot of intertwined Indian, Chinese and
Malay communities families, right and yeah, can you maybe talk a little bit
about the things that you've explored inyour stories about being part of the Malaysian
(23:15):
family. I'm not sure how toanswer that question. I think what I
can say is that I have listenedto people. Now, I listened to
people to talk about the families.So these are lived experiences. I didn't
have to create anything off the topof my head. They were there and
(23:36):
the only thing was to put themdown authentically. And honestly, I think
all families are complicated, All relationshipsare complicated. Nothing comes easy. If
it comes easy, always comes ata price, you know. So,
and what else trying to tell todo show was, for instance, in
(23:56):
when we are young. It's froma narrator is Malay, and I needed
her to be tired of this Indianboy feeling victimized, because that's real.
You can't you can't play the victimgame, even if it's real, even
if it's you know, deserved withother people feeling tired, especially those who
(24:22):
are not feel experiencing it. Sohe's a double aged thought. You know,
I don't know what you're going through, but I'm tired of You're talking
about it all the time, butthe moment it touches me, I get
pretty upset. Thank you, youknow that kind of thing. Yeah,
yeah, I think that's I mean, that hit me when I was reading
your stories. I mean giving cutreels in the corridor, you know,
friendships and how innocent we were whenwe were younger, you know, like
(24:45):
who cares whatever, whatever race youare, religion, right, you're friends.
And then you realize, you know, like for me because obviously I'm
Malay, so I grew up justkind of yeah, I know this is
what is given to me. Inever really think about it. You know.
It's only after I started working andgoing to you know, for the
studies, that I realized that,oh, not everybody has the same opportunity.
(25:08):
It's not everybody, you know,Like, there's a lot of things
I take for granted. And Ithink these are very important stories in a
way, you know, because youhave to remind yourself again the privilege,
but also any other end of thespectrum is that you know, how people
get on with life and not asyou say, I played with the privilege.
Yeah, yeah, So I mean, do you think this is very
like for younger people who are readingthis book? How do you think I
(25:33):
mean, has anybody come up toyou and tell you like, oh I
never realized this or I've always feltthis way, or what they do.
I hope my children are reading thisstory so that they understand their privilege,
you know what I mean. Ihope, I hope they do. Would
be wonderful. I think we needto speak to the younger people. We
need to have conversations with the youngerpeople voice and girls, because they're the
(25:56):
future. And I was trying tovery very hard not to write to victimhood
because you don't need that. Youknow, we already that's that's an easy
path to follow, to go down, you know, the victims. No,
It's like there's a there's one storyhere where the victim is as much
a perpetrator. Many many stories theperpetrators also a victim. The victims are
(26:21):
also perpetrators. The reality of life. You never the villain of your own
story. Yeah right, You're nevergoing to be the villain. You're always
going to be the hero. Yeah. Do we want to have us read
something another excerpt or do you haveone more question? Yeah? Okay,
that's I think that's a good placeto segue into another excerpt. Okay,
(26:45):
we're talking about mates. Let methis is a bit if we have time,
little talk about something like it.But this is a little, you
know, a little bit of background. Rering thought she came in legally,
but she's actually illegal. And thenafter eight months in a very very abusive
home, she runs away. Butshe runs away with money and a phone
(27:08):
so that she will not be notreport the abuse to the police. Okay,
And she knows exactly where to gobecause being in donations, they have
their contacts, they know exactly wherethat the underground network is and that and
those networks exist. I found out, you know, they do exist.
So she's here and this is she'stalking to her mother in Indonesia. When
(27:40):
I speak to you next, Itell you I'm already cleaning several houses a
week. You are relieved. Wedon't mention her previous conversation. I speak
of my flats that I share withtwo other women, miRNA and Tinny,
both illegals. They work in aChinese restaurant. I tell her they were
in Malaysia for years. I don'ttell you, though, that quickly enough
(28:04):
I realized their lovers. How youmight ask, I'll tell you the way
Tinny slides a hand around Mirana's waistwith such tenderness that I almost weep for
no one has ever touched me thatway. Or when they're sitting on the
sofa with Tinny's feet on Mirana's lap. They're doing nothing, you understand,
(28:26):
they're not even talking, but thatintimacy, I feel it like a sunburst
inside me. There was a timewhen I when I would have been disgusted
at such things between women and women. Mah, except now that there's been
no loving in my life for solong, I'm gentler in my thought,
with my thoughts, I don't knowhow kind you'll be, so I cut
(28:49):
off my own tongue. I don'thave time. Now tell you what my
employers. But I learned this onthe billboards along the streets. They show
everybody being best ends with each other. But the Chinese, Indians, Malays
they live in their own bubbles andthe politicians make sure they don't trust each
other too much. Still, theyall have one thing in common. The
(29:11):
despises all of us, invisible creaturesthat live below the surface. From Indonesia,
Bangladesh, Menma, Cambodia, India, Petnam, Philippines, they despise
us. You think it's funny,you know, when you think that Indians
and Chinese were once immigrants themselves,you think they were kind to us.
(29:34):
miRNA knows it all. In thiscountry, all the chest thumping about race
and religion is just that empty sounds. In the end, only money counts,
rering and someone to blame when thingsgo wrong. Thank you. That
was very heart help. I meanthat's one of the qualities I love for
(29:59):
the story is in here that thatyou you're able to really give us a
sense of how people really go throughdifficult things, you know, And I
think and one of the I think, I think we all need a little
bit of a sobering when it comesof maids, especially I think yes,
like just like in in the othercase you were talking about before, we
tend to only see outside of thestory because we we all have stories about
(30:22):
maids run away, you know,bids who are lazy maids who don't you
know, we don't live up tothe contract, but we don't we forget
that, you know, they areoften victimized. We like to go into
some writing and reading story yes questions, if you don't mind, this is
there's something that we like to dobecause we think that, you know,
like we like to get a senseof what it's like to be a writer.
(30:45):
We like to try to put ourselvesinto your shoes. So let's say,
let's say bad story for example,how did you write it? And
how does a concept of the storycome to you? And how do you
start? And how do you knowwhen the story ends? I think a
story comes to me for me asanyway. Perhaps it's an idea, a
(31:06):
picture, a word, a phrase, and it's you know, someone has
told you something he stuck. Itgets stuck in your head and you think,
hey, there's a story there.I wonder how, I wonder why,
I wonder what if? And thenit just works on you as like
I told you, when you're cookingand cleaning and sleeping and reading, you
know, it just works in yourmind and then you feel, okay,
(31:30):
it's time to put it down.Then you put it down. It never
works, it looks horrible. Andthen you work on it. But you
know there is some kind of form, so you work and you work and
you work on it. And inmy case, it takes you sometimes,
you know, zillions of drafts untilyou you really you know it's working.
In my case, because I'm soegoistic, I think every time I think
(31:53):
a story is done and I leaveit, you leave it a site to
ferment, and then you realize,oh god, it's sucks, you know,
and then you go back and workon it. This time been more
truth, more honesty. So Ifind it very often I am changing the
stories, the endings of the stories, because I have to stop being so
(32:15):
full of myself. You know,how has winning the Commonwealth Short Story Competition
changed your life and changed Because thisis a question that a lot of my
friends wanted me to ask you aswell, because I think a lot of
people aspire to write short stories tobe writers. And yeah, so how
has it been for you, Ihas you know, like that was amazing
(32:37):
what the wind did, because it'san international contest, what it did,
in my mind was a validate thefact that I am a writer. So
get off your butt and proofs thatyou are a right Maybe you've been given
this recognition. Now you have tohonor that. The thing about me is
(32:58):
that I've always wanted to be awriter. I just thought, you know,
you just sit down and you're writeand you're done and never need to
such hard work. But I alsoattended a huge number of writing courses,
creative writing courses. Sharon Baker wasthe one who introduced me to my first
classes, and then after that Iwent off to other countries. One that
(33:22):
fundamentally changed how I looked at workand writing was Sprague, the product summer
program Post Writers was incredible. Sowhen I want this, it was time
to honor the white teachers, honorthe craft, and really start writing something
(33:43):
seriously, you know, not notlike you know you're dithering and you're like
a dially talented you're just right whenyou can, when you're not too tired.
It didn't work, and that thatwould happen. The common worth opened
doors both externally and internally in myown mind. My mother Pat two was
also published in this American anthology forcollege students, and when people said they
(34:09):
could relate to part two regardless ofracial or geographical boundaries, that was,
you know, affirmation that you've gotsomething. Can you just start working on
it? Yeah, that's amazing,that's that's so inspiring. Actually, what
happens in one of those retreats isit lots so very intelligent people wafting around
(34:30):
and sharing. I know, justme asthma. It's crazy. I was
always very often the oldest person there. Okay, but Sharon's class scharents extremely
nurturing teach, and I think it'svery very good for to begin creative writing.
The summer program was organized by thisAmerican professor universities, and okay,
(34:55):
they were not nurturing. They werevery they're treating you as writers. You
have producing a work, and Ineed to tell you within this space of
three weeks or four weeks, howgood you are, how good you can
be, and push you and sothere used to be this enormous energy because
(35:15):
you have got all your mentors arepublished writers and university lecturers. To die
back was amazing I'm not sure thatyou heard. He's Stu Dieback is one
of the foremost short story writers andteachers of creative writing and a lecturer himself.
You know, whenever he used torun classes would be like standing room
(35:37):
only because he was that good andhe was he would did at one end
of the table. In this particularyear when we had very few students,
you said, at one end ofthe table. And Richard Cutters was also
a poet, writer, playwright,everything, and lecturer would say at the
other end, and they will lookat work and then they would throw in
examples of other work. And thedynamics you just grew as a writer because
(36:00):
you're listening to experts, the peoplewho who loved with a passion what they're
doing. And you can't beat that, you know, it really just can't
beat that. It is enormous creativeenergy. And of course Prague is such
a beautiful place. You know,you walk around and you you just get
(36:21):
that those wives and we die forabout three weeks, you know, that
kind of thing. And and weused do readings in this wonderful bookshop called
Shakespeare and Sons. It's really aquaint bookshop, you know, so that
atmosphere. You can't get that whenyou're sitting at home with your pile of
(36:43):
clothes to be folded, gosh,and you're cooking to be done and the
kids yelling and your house. Youcan't do that. Really, that was
a gift. I had to honorthat gift. There's time I started honoring
gifts because PRAG was special. Whatthey did was they lacked my face.
(37:04):
I think you know, they letme come in every year and they waived
the face. Others I wouldn't havebeen able to afford it. And so
that was a gift. Yeah,and then I made use of it.
Yeah, that's that's great that thewriting community can also be very I mean
writers in general are very solitary people, right, you know, like you
always see that there's lots of selfdoubt and all that. But then when
(37:28):
you find the right writing communities,yes, it's quite wonderful. Any tips,
because you also teach short a storywriting. I met you at the
Language House and I actually wanted tolook for your class, but then I
was teaching scriptwriting and that. Right, So if you can give people three
tips for budding writers in the audienceor I mean, I know published writers
(37:50):
here as well. But yes,what's the sarahs I don't know, that's
hard. It was a Sara secretsource of writing, a secret sauce can
Amber. I think you have toin the first place, start writing,
and start writing without the editor atyour back telling you rubbish, rubbis shrubby
(38:14):
shrubbish. You know that's really veryhelpful. You know you're in a critic
yeast syndrome. Yeah, that's right. I don't know. I I think
you just have to embrace life andbe everything in life teaches you. You
know, everyone in life and youand you remember those lessons, you know,
(38:37):
like the made these are not imaginedexperiences that they lived experiences. This
I don't have made at what time? Made who comes once a week,
But she's got stories. She's there. You just listen. You listen to
them. I think that's the thing. You listen to lived experiences and you
(38:58):
write them as honestly as ow thegood tips. Can you tell us about
your reading life and what what areyou like as a reader? Do you
do you like to read the samethings you write or are you inspired by
anybody in particular? I read Igot that Christie, I used to read
I got that Christie, I'm ahorrible uh. I love directive fiction.
(39:23):
I'm you know. I love directivefiction, British directive fiction, and right
now I love Louis Spenny. I'vementioned this before because Luis Spenny writes directive
stories and a small town. Yeah, in a small town. But she's
got so much of soul, somuch of heart. It's not the crime
(39:45):
that's so important as the motivations,the people and and so on. I
think I love that because at theheart of any story is a person of
people. And every time I reada good book, I read it for
(40:06):
enjoyment. Then I go back againand read for the craft. I think
this is my learning curve I learned. I read for the craft to see
how they managed to convey what theywant to convey and why it remains so
fresh. It makes such an impact. In my point, I read for
the craft. Yeah, so anyplans on doing it? Who done it?
(40:28):
I can't. I can't write,you know, directive stories or whatever
to say in my life. ButI just loved them. I know people
really loved them too. I lovethem too. Yeah. At this point,
Honey and Diana are open questions tothe audience. I will let you
know what the questions are before heranswers. First question from the audiences.
(40:52):
Do you have a small circle ofreaders to give you feedback when you have
a draft? Not not the firstdrafts. It's not fair to let them
read the first drafts, and notbecause they're all mostly awful, but when
they read a little ritual level whereyou're comfortable with the quality, and then
you need feedback. Yeah. Areyou always satisfied with the end results or
(41:16):
do you feel that maybe I couldhave changed things a little tiny tweaks?
Yes, tiny tweaks works a phrase, but mostly you know when a story
is done? Yeah, many manytimes I've written a story, finish the
(41:36):
ending, put it away, andfound that, no, that's not That's
not how it's supposed to be.It's two commonplaces, two stereotypes. Sto
comfortable is to sleep, you know, as it were, and you need
something different, then you go backto it again. Do you get someone
to read the same story but ina different draft? People, No,
(42:01):
I let someone read. It's usuallylike the finest final towards the final draft
if you've given the initial draft,or it's really very painful for them because
it's awful. You know, shemay lose friends that way. Do you
(42:24):
ever feel unsure sometimes that you haveno right to tell a story? There
is no element of stealing a story, and and there's no one single story.
I would have heard a line ora thought, and then someone else,
and then someone else, and thenyou put it all together. So
it's never ever one person's story,you know, never, as far as
(42:49):
I can imagine, there's no oneperson who has done, who has experienced
everything. Maybe on one line shemay have said one line to me and
I think about it, you know, or like this thing when I was
writing The Invisibles, you know,the mates boss said, the Waits are
(43:09):
very clever people. You know,you think she's knew should just come down
from Indonesia. But when she go, when we go to the pasta Malam,
she says she she's salams other people. And then there's a piece of
paper there with her telephone number.And that was how I knew about how
they learned to connect with each other. So it does not It was something
(43:32):
I heard and added that into thestory, but it didn't really belong to
anybody. How do you navigate writingabout racial and ethnic complexities and yet not
offend. No, not so muchoffend. How do you You will definitely
offend. But I tried very veryhard not to write to victimpod. It's
(43:53):
so easy being an Indian to say, look at me and marginalized, I'm
this, I'm dead, you hateme. You never gave me a chance,
you know. But I need toshow ef I right to that.
Then I'm playing the game and Idon't ever want to do that. You
need to write to deliberately, notright to victimhood so very much in my
(44:16):
stories. In the last story,for instance, this girl is called a
cling and she stunned. No onehas ever called her cling because she is
you know, educated, beautiful,exotic. Just this that she thought cling
is only for the you know,the gangsters and the drug pushes and the
(44:37):
world working class people. She wasshocked. So it's very easy to go
along that line where I had toshow that when her mother was alive,
you know, when when when justgrowing up, her mother would get angry
when the father brought his office workersare factory workers for lunch. But she's
(44:59):
like, I don't know these people. What is the religion, what is
the cast, what is the race? How will I feed them? You
know, I wanted to show thatbigotry doesn't belong to one particular race,
so you don't can't write to victimher then, you know, but people,
you lose credibility when you do that. That's on your bayside table at
(45:20):
the moment. What are you readingat the moment? Sorry? Wi while
waiting for people to collect your thoughts, because some of your faces this is
like the weare book nets as well, so very people. Okay, I'm
rereading this book called brother and keepon pushing this moment, Brotherless Night.
You're reading it as well. Okay. It's by Webcanation, London, and
I've read it. I'm rereading itfor the craft now. She writes with
(45:45):
the civil war in Sri Lanka andit's absolutely awesome. Her style, her
writing is so awesome because everyone isa victim and everyone isn't is a perpetrator.
There's no good person there. Thiswhole civil voice is so messed up
that everyone is a perpetrator of somethingor other. And no one said the
(46:07):
good guys are the bad guys aswell, you know, and I liked
that honesty. You know, It'slike when you read that books she's staring
out a heart and putting it.Then I thought, wow, that's a
fantastic right. That's a lot ofcourage, isn't it to actually do something
like that. Yeah, any plansfor a novel, I'm not sure I'm
(46:30):
good enough. Novels required some mathematicalability to keep track at you know,
you know, you ask her,it's a novel, you ask her,
it's a huge, you know thing. You've got to keep track and and
uh, maintain interest and you know, keep track of characters and the actions
(46:52):
and the places aesthetics. I'm verybad at that match, you know,
And I was afraid that I loseinterests. That's the other thing, you
know. Yeah, well, youknow your novel, if you write it,
I have to say that that thequality are you're asking about before about
(47:13):
you know, picking up characters inthe story and then and then taking telling
a story about some of that isin the book. So there's a lot
of intercollection. I actually thought thatthere would be more of that. I
was kind of disappointed towards the endwhen we when we moved away from from
the original stories, and I thought, oh, I really wanted to know
more about that. So I doget that part of people said, you
must write about Kitchi bay Yea islovely. I need to write about him.
(47:37):
Yeah, I knew him, soagain authentic experiences, you know.
Yeah, and it did tell mewhen I was a kid, when I
was sixteen years so Kitchi by alocal gangster for those who haven't read Local
Gangster, you know. And hesaid, he told me, called me
about my name and said, ifany boy tries to be funny with you,
you're telling me a kitcher by Sisterwritened for life. See, I
(48:02):
thought that that could have been veryeasily translated into a novel just just you
know, just take all these storiesand put them together, just reshape them
in a coter way. I think. I think that's the premise of John
at Club. Actually she started asas story in short stories, and her
editor actually suggested to any time towork into a novel. So there you
(48:23):
go. That's that's a possibility tohave the startings. You have the chapters
already, so each of those storiesa chapter, right right, that's right.
Okay, thank you everybody for beingsuch a great audience. So at
thank you, thank you, thankyou much, thank you, and thank
you very much for sharing your storiesand tearing your experiences with it. Thank
you for your collection. I lovedit personally as a reader, I love
(48:46):
so much. We hope you enjoyedthe interview. As usual, you can
find Tooble nuts talking at TV andT Books on Instagram, two Booknuts Talking
on Facebook and TBNT part on Twitter. You can reach out to us at
(49:07):
booknuts talking at gmail dot com.Have a great bookish one, folks,
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