TBNT S06E15 | How Kyoto Breaks Your Heart with Florentyna Leow

Hello booknerds!

We're talking to Tokyo-based Malaysian writer Florentyna Leow in this episode about her debut book How Kyoto Breaks Your Heart. The book is tender time capsule of her time working as a tour guide in Kyoto and the heartbreak that followed the end of a friendship.

We absolutely loved reading her book and we obviously had to talk to her about it. She's a kindred spirit and we hope you'll enjoy this episode (and pick up her book!).

Cheers!

Episode Transcript

(00:09):
Hey, friends, book lovers,It's Stephanie, the producer of Two Booknets
Talking. I'm here to introduce theepisode this week, which is an interview
between Honey and Dina and Tokyo basedMalaysian writer Florentina Leo, and they will
be talking about Florentina's first book title, How Kyoto Breaks Your Heart. Enjoy.

(00:35):
Hello Florentina, welcome to Two Booknet'sTalking. Hello. Hi, we
have in our studio today. FlorentinaLeo rhymes with meo es with me.
She wrote the book How Kyoto BreaksYour Heart, which is a really lovely
collection of essays of living in Kyoto, of cooking there, and being a

(00:58):
toy guide, I mean all kindsof stuff. She touches on all kinds
of stuff. So we're very excitedto talk to you. But first,
can I just ask you the questionthat probably our audiences want to know.
How do you end up living inKyoto? How long did I go?
So? Right after graduating university,I moved to Japan on the first work

(01:21):
visa that I could get, whichhappened to be a job in retail.
I worked for basically a corporate retailerof eyeglasses, and as you might as
expect from working in Japanese retail,I don't have the stamina for it,
or the mental mental world stamina forit, I should say. So.
Two months into the job and alluniversity friends reached out and asked me if

(01:42):
I'd like to work for a companythat she was hired at. It was
a travel company doing walking tours inJapan, and I at that point I
think I would have taken any jobthat wasn't this retail job. And the
job came with an offer of movingto Kyoto to live with her and work
with her. And bear in mind, this is maybe twenty fifteen before the

(02:07):
pandemic, so working remotely and livingtogether with your colleague, you know,
is not something that anybody was evertalking about. We had no models for
this. But I want out ofthe job, so I said yes,
and I moved to Kyoto and movedin with her. We became colleagues,
and we became close friends. Wedid all the things you're not supposed to
do when with with your colleague.Can I just say before we move on,

(02:32):
that I really like your line oflele rhymes with meo because I happened
to be married to a leal andmy children alio, So yeah, I'm
stealing that from my kids, sayingfantastic. I always have to explain it
to you know, people who arenot Chinese, right right, Yeah,

(02:52):
yeah, Chinese names can be alittle bit weird. I mean I had
got it a little bit. Well, you're used to them, not most
of the world. I would say, I remember somebody going low or right.
I mean, at least nobody hasgotten out, which is pretty terrible.
Yeah. Yeah, it's not easyfor them to wrap their mind around

(03:13):
that. You know, why doyou have so many like these different sounds
in your name? And yeah,my husband gets like lions and stuff like
that, So, I mean,Lion's pretty cool. How does he spell
it? I I digress. Let'scome back to the book, which is
I have to say, I reallyreally enjoyed reading this book. When it

(03:34):
came down to writing out, like, how would you describe this book if
you want to introduce it to theaudience, right, And I was like,
I'm not really sure what we wouldcall it. Would it be a
travel memoir, would it be likea personal It's it's got a little bit
of everything in it, I think, you know, like, would it
be would it kind of like feltto me like it was a way to
process your own thoughts and feelings.At the same time, it was kind

(03:57):
of felt like maybe it was aletter to a loved one. What would
you say as the way you woulddescribe this book. A friend used the
phrase time capsule or the other day, which I think is a very accurate
way of looking at it, becauseit is a time capsule of who I
was back then, and I think, like like a life, it contains
a little bit of everything that Iwas thinking of at the time. So
yeah, that's how I would describeit a whatever format you you know,

(04:21):
you choose to describe in essays,memoir and essays, but it is,
I think, yeah, very much, a little box of Kyoto those several
years in Kyoto. Person and blossomsemerge in June, petite and cream colored,

(04:48):
as though clusters of buttery pursed lipshave sprouted all over the tree,
or so I'm told. I can'trecall the person and tree in this garden
ever. Flowering bright green leaves oneday, fruit the next, they seem
to blink into a being overnight asJune's rainy season subsides oval lumps, swelling
over those summer months until blushing orangeand autumn like a thousand little suns festooning

(05:10):
the tree. Visiting crows peck awayat persemans on the highest branches. Some
ripen, all too quickly, landingin fragrant, messy puddles on the undergrowth,
a feast for wasps and songbirds alike. It is early October now,
a warm sunny afternoon with a dreamlikecast, and we're harvesting persmans. The
tree is still lush and green.In a few weeks it will be bare,

(05:31):
scattering leaves in a brilliant carbont ofmoultled tangerine and vermilion. She shimmes
up the ladder and snips away atthe fruit laden boughs with red cheers.
I catch them mostly and pries thepersemans from the branches by their calyxes.
If I close my eyes, Ican still hear our peals of laughter,
her yelps and curses as some fruitfalls onto the roof gutters. Oh fuck,

(05:53):
I feel myself shaking with laughter.I look up her hair glints in
the sun. When we have harvestedclose to three quarters the tree, we
call it a day. The personmeans spill out across the veranda by the
hundreds, far more than we canreasonly be eat by ourselves. We'll pile
them up in a corner. Butfor now we make person and angels,
arms spread, surrounded by an abundanceautumn sunshine streams in through the glass at

(06:15):
the sliding doors. My heart catchesa little, as though there's a glass
splinter inside. I'm already weeping forthe moment as it steps away. I'm
happy, it hurts. I thinkthis is where I'm supposed to be.
This is how I remember her,still luminous, laughing, hailed by sunlight
and sunset colored fruit. Where areyou living right now? I live until

(06:43):
Kyo Parking. Why do you missmost about Kyoto and miss the river?
Yeah? I really miss cycling bythe river. I miss that there is
a big body of water running througha town, and whenever you go down
to the river, you can seethe mountains in the distance. You don't
get that so much in the centerof Tokyo. You had to go up
to a really tall building to seeany mountains in the distance. But with

(07:06):
Kyoto, because it's a valley andit's ringed by mountains, you can wander
down to the river and you standon the bridge and you look into the
distance and there the mountains are,and that's really really nice. I think
I have been to Kyoto, andI actually did Kyoto by myself, and
it was a city that you canactually never get alone. Yes, yes,

(07:28):
but also I felt a bit lonelythere as well. I don't know,
I mean, I don't know whatthat. That's just Japan in general,
because you always feel that you're alwaysgoing to be the outsider there,
you know, because everybody's very polite, but you never know what everybody's thinking.
But I did Kyoto by myself,and then I ended up making friends
with people who are living there fromelsewhere, and yeah, I just ended

(07:48):
up doing really random things there,Like I hung out with a guy who
did manga. I did a guythat did six screening. Lots of foreigners
go to Kyoto and decided to pickup a skill. That seems to be
that kind of place, right itreally is. People come there and they
want to learn some kind of traditionalcraft. I've had a colleague who came
there in the nineties to studies inYeah, people go there and become photographers,

(08:09):
people who yeah, like you said, sel screen printing. It's a
real helpful traditional crafts and arts,which I really like as well. It's
just lovely how you describe Kyoto withthis book and I and you can definitely
see the love that you have forthe place there. So you title your
book How Kyoto Breaks Your Heart veryclickbait. What exactly do you mean by

(08:35):
that? And especially for our listenerswho may not have picked it up before,
can you share why you chose thistitle. I think I've not related
this particular anecdote anywhere before, butHow Kyoto Breaks Your Heart is a title
that has modeled off Bill hayes photographycollection, which is called How New York
Breaks Your Heart, And that photographycollection is his series of street photographs.

(09:01):
He basically walks around New York andtakes photos of as ordinary people of New
Yorkers, and many people have donethat, but I think you know,
he is a very tender touch tohis photos. He has this ability to
somehow capture like very sort of intimatemoments between like say a couple that you
know he happens to photograph. Hemanages to remove that sort of barrier that

(09:24):
you get with strangers and somehow getright to you know where they are right
there, and I think it's thatsame sense of rawnists that I wanted to
capture. And from the start ofw when this collection was conceived, I
knew that that I wanted that title, this particular title, how Kilto Breaks

(09:46):
your Heart, because there are somany ways in which I think moving somewhere
new can break your heart. Ihave no family in Japan, so there
you have to build your own communityfrom scratch. I do speak Japanese,
but linguistic barrier at the breaking down. A linguistic barrier can only do so

(10:07):
much because there are also emotional barriersto break down, and that's not necessarily
you know, language doesn't really itcan only do so much in that regard,
and for personal reasons as well.Kyoto is where I learned to be
an adult. It was where Ilearned to pay taxes, for example.
It's where I learned to like navigateJapanese rent, just really practical things like

(10:30):
that as well and in between.So it is very much a I think
a coming of age in the tin your twenties and trying to like find
some sense of identity that's different fromwhat you had before because you wrote here
to level places, to let itbreak your heart exactly. Yeah, you
let somewhere get under your skin.And yeah, you're essentially allowing yourself to
be vulnerable. I think that's trueof a city. I think that's also

(10:52):
true people. Mm. So youhave been a travel guide for almost two
years, right when you were inKyoto? Right, I started there and
I still do it occasionally, butnot very often at all. So I
mean when I was reading it,because I'm also a traveler, So there's
much in your essays about the appreciationof places, right, Like I guess

(11:15):
for you because you've seen the sameplaces again and again, you know,
so you get to know them quiteintimately. But there's also the fatigue of
constantly having to explain to people andLeah and all these kind of questions,
right, they have I felt that. I felt that. I mean,
what do you say to a personwho's traveling should what would they get from

(11:39):
engaging a travel guide as opposed todoing something dy Because now everybody seems to
think that they have a Google mapon your phone and they can find so
what is it? What do youthink travel guides can give you as opposed
to you know, just doing somethingon your own. I like there several
aspects to this one. From apurely practical standpoint, it just makes the
logistics of your much easier. Youwhen you are traveling by yourself, you

(12:03):
are constantly looking at your phone.You're the little blue dot trying to find
this random little place on the map. You know, maybe you haven't done
your research beforehand, and you're inthis era and you're like what do I
eat and what and particularly if you'resaying vegetarian or you have restrictions, you're
like what can what can I eat? And so having somebody that travel,

(12:24):
like a tour guide kind of removesall that legwork for you. So they
take care of all the logistics andessentially a lot of my customers can just
switch off their brain and not haveto think on holiday, you know.
So and it gets to a pointwhere like they're not looking when they cross
the road and have to go anotherstop. Oh my god. Yeah yeah,
yeah, So that's one aspect ofit. It's you can relax mentally

(12:48):
relax, and that's what a lotof people want from their holiday. If
they engage a tour guide, theydon't have to work for it. They
pay somebody money and somebody takes careof stuff for them, and they're also
like the repository of information about thatplace. So even the historical sort of
and the historical and cultural anecdotes aside, it's really it's things like where can

(13:11):
I Where can I buy clothes fromlocal Japanese designers, Where in the city
can I go to to get likea really unique accessory or item, Where's
the best ramen in town? Whereis where can I go find a particular
tea thing, you know, oras as somebody asked me in the restaurant,
where can I buy this particular chair? Because I really like it?
I want to take it out?Wow? Yeah, I mean, like

(13:33):
that's so true if you're if you'retraveling on your own, you kind of
have to you rely too much onGoogle. I think there's only so much
that Google can give you, right, compared to somebody who actually lives there
and actually knows what's happening there.Right. But I also feel that that
now when people travel there are justtoo much about trying to go to specific

(13:56):
places as opposed to letting the placeexactly, you know, Like for me,
one of the best things about beingin a foreign city is to just
get lost in it for a whilewithout actually looking down to actually, you
know, experience a market or experiencelike a place where locals hang out,
do you know. I guess that'smore. I guess it's a difference between
tourists and traveler, right, SoI feel that there's also a little bit

(14:18):
you lose a little bit out wheneverything is all reviewed, you know,
people are just constantly reading reviews,you know, And sometimes now when I
travel, I feel a bit sad, absolutely that you're kind of losing that
sort of like I do you feelthat? And you also have you know,
I think a lot of us arejust traveling with our phones in front

(14:41):
of our faces a lot of thetime. And I'm also guilty of that
when I'm on my own and it'sit's not a it's not the most pleasant
way to experience a place. Ithink. I'm not sure where I was
going with this yet. It's okay, it's a chat, it's an opinion.
There's a lamentation of a lost somethinglike gil. I mean, I

(15:03):
have to say, Matt reading isdefinitely something that people cannot do anymore.
Yeah, And that's the other thingI guess with the tour guiding. As
a tour guide, you could neverbe seen to be checking Google Maps,
right, because it's all in yourhead. That's supposed to be all your
head, and that's fine. LikeI have a fairly good sense of direction,
so I never really needed to lookat the maps. But yeah,

(15:24):
your customers definitely expect you to notbe looking at Google Maps, so it
does train you too. Yeah,I really look around. I know where
people supply chairs apparently. Yeah,yeah, I mean I did not know,
but I said I would try andfind out. But you know,
five minutes later, they've forgotten theyasked the question. So a lot of
these sort of questions you get arealso like, you know, spur of

(15:45):
the moment like, and they're justas easily forgotten. It sounds to me
like the definition of tour guide hasextended to being much more than just being
a guide. You're you're basically beinga concierge at the Stoh yes, oh
definitely, definitely. There's a goodway of putting it. Yeah, you
are very much a concierge, sometimescertainly for your high end clients, right

(16:06):
if you are planning them from startto finish. Yeah, they will email
your questions and text you with questionsright, wow, wow, Okay.
I try not to let it getto that point, but I know many
of my private tour grighte friends areyou know, basically on call twenty four
seven for their clients. I waslucky. Unpleasant customers were few and far

(16:32):
between on my tours. But everyguide has a story. But the customer
who tries to have you fired.Mine was a bretty socialite with a planchon
for horse racing. What amazed mewas the transformation some people underwent on tour.
Otherwise intelligent and competent adults switched offthe moment that tours started. I
was suddenly responsible for where they walked. They ate how to communicate. They

(16:53):
would forget to look both ways whencrossing the street, their attention snagging on
every cherry blossom tree. Strangely,clients and wide eyed, relying on you
to gently shepherd them to their nextdestination like herding cats. My colleagues grumbled
they were free from the burden ofchoice, free to delight in the mundane
details of daily life in Japan.Honestly, said a colleague, You're just

(17:15):
there to make sure they don't getrun over by Car, I mean,
I mean, it's it's so interestingto think about the way you describe,
you know, what it's like beinga tour guide in the book. It's
fascinating because you know, like,yeah, we don't think about these things
because you know, you haven't havingbeen a tour guide like that. But

(17:40):
what do you think has changed aboutyour personal attitude towards travel now having had
that experience? Right? What doyou think you know, like the other
things people mistakes that people make thatyou think people should be aware of.
One, I would not just goon any random to right now. Okay,

(18:02):
They're like, you go to anycity, and I think, you
know, you can take a pickfrom a lot of like inexpensive walking tours
or free walking tours or tours thatrandom people have set up. And personally,
I think I would try to ifI were to do a tour,
and I think a good tour guideis worth paying for because they have that
they have put in the work andyou are really benefiting from that. I

(18:23):
would be quite careful with trying tofind somebody who I think could give their
clients or their customers a really insightfulperspective and not one that they've just sort
of rattled off from like a randomguidebook themselves, something like I want a
guide who I would like. Iwould like to talk to a guide who

(18:45):
is deeply engaged in their community.Yeah, so that's that's something I you
know, I almost think that goingon a mediocre tour is worse than going
on no tour, because then youyou just you just get a really shallow
or slightly you know, pet impressionof a place and you don't get to,

(19:08):
I think, engage with it,or get as much of an insight
into it as you as much asyou could with a really good guide.
But the other thing is when Itravel now, I actively resist like curated
itineraries and stuff. I actually whenI travel, I just tend to not

(19:29):
I almost never visit the sites thatpeople are supposed to see because it almost
us like work for me. Ohmy god. Yeah, so so a
lot of travel now I feels likework for me. If i'm sometimes it's
actually quite nice to go to aplace and not know what the hell I'm
doing. It's wonderful, like it'svery much a that's the holiday for me,

(19:52):
and it's nice to go. ButI also really love traveling places where
I already have friends, and sothat way I get to see their city
and not the guidebook city. Ithink if it's very very interesting to reflect
upon what it actually means to goand visit a place, right, because
a lot of people go to aplace and they I don't know anything about
this place. I'm just going togo and see the places that people tell

(20:14):
me I need to see. Butyou know, what is the point of
you going? Are you actually interestedin these right exactly these places? Or
are you just doing it just becauseyou're told to? Right? So,
yeah, sometimes it's a list youjust need to think of you to do
this, you know. And peopleare supposed to go and see the bamboo
forest when they get kill them thatkind of thing, right, doesn't mean
you actually have a connection with that. So so what do you think it

(20:37):
tells you about the way we needto travel? Like the way that we
have made tourism into this industry thatbasically is kind of like it's so curated,
it's so it's it's just put intothis box that you know, everyone
said, oh, you must dothese things. Social media has been the
worst thing for the travel industry inthat sense, like not for the industry
as a whole, because I'm surelike there's lots of money involved there.

(21:00):
But social media has been very badfor our souls when it comes to travel,
because then it becomes it becomes aboutrecording that experience and then being able
to put that up to show everybodythat you have done it, whereas you
might not have been very engaged atthat moment. And I'm not trying to
rag on people who genuinely do enjoysocial media and stuff. You know,

(21:22):
it's a nice record of your timethere, but sometimes it feels like a
lot of effort for a bit ofattention, right, Yeah, I went
to a concert recently and everybody wasmore engaged in actually recording the concert than
actually watching it. That is sucha thing, and it's really annoying for
the person behind. Yeah. Yeah, but you just look at somebody's armpit

(21:48):
and I sat there for a whileI go like, Wow, concerts of
evolved, and I'm a bit sadby all this, you know, because
nobody is actually really kind of justdancing and enjoying the atmosphere. Right.
A lot of the times they're justtrying to record the entire concert. Why
why do you do that? Theentire council is a bit much, right,
because I also like I'll record alittle bit. Yeah yeah, me
too. Yeah yeah, but youknow, anyway, so I really love

(22:11):
how you wrote about romantic friendships.Yes, yeah, because I also do
kind of understand because I've had intensefriendships and friendships that are literally you're living
out of each other's pockets and youare literally seeing each other every day and
everything, and especially if a romanticfriendships among females, it gives a unique

(22:33):
kind of heartbreak and betrayal and pining. I feel, you know, can
we chat a little bit about thatand why this is actually quite a core
theme in your book. You know, this this almost very formative friendship that
you had in Kyoto where everything youknow from making person a jam to you
know where, and just the kindof sadness and melancholy that comes after it

(22:53):
when you realize it's old, whenyou didn't even realize that it was coming
to an end, and something thatyou know, I don't know what the
question was, where are we goingto start? Right? Where are we
going to start on this? I'mjust you know that when you when you
mentioned romantic friendships, and I wasreminded actually when I was speaking to a

(23:15):
friend in Hong Kong who had visitedme and so she knows this person and
me, and when I was tellingher in about the aftermath, she was
like, you know, this soundsmore like a romantic breakup than it does
a like just helping friends anymore.And I was like, And I didn't
think much of the remark at thetime, but I think it has stuck
with me for that reason, like, oh, there was much more gravity

(23:37):
to this than I envisioned. Andit's not like I haven't had, you
know, friendship breakups throughout my life, right, I think we all you
know, oh I don't friend youanymore, you know, that sort of
thing. But this, I thinkthis felt particularly heavy because it was my
first time living at somebody who Ithought who I considered a very close friend.
And you are up on each other'sbusiness a lot because you also worked

(23:59):
together. So we wait at tenam to six pm. We're working together,
and then maybe we've dinner together,and then you repeat for five days
a week, and then on theweekend sometimes you know, we could do
things together. That's a lot oftime to be spending with anybody. But
I also didn't know anybody else inKyota at the time, and I skew
introverts so at the time. Sothat's another thing I had to learn how
to make friends in a non anglophoneplace that have much for your English speakers

(24:27):
than it took you. For example. Yeah, it's selling yea. The
introverts have to make much more effortsto make fots. Yeah, because I
don't think that I've read that verymany books or essays that deals with this,
you know, this this particular thingthat I myself have felt and sometimes

(24:49):
find very difficult to articulate, youknow, because they were like going,
why are you so upset? It'salmost like I think with a friend,
it's love is almost unconditional because youthink those barriers down because that's there's there's
no kind of like preconceptions of Iwant to get married or I want to
have sex with you, you know, so it makes it purer, but
also in a way it makes italso very painful when you know I and

(25:12):
I think for all of you guysout there, I mean, pick up
this book and read these parts,because this is something that I think a
lot more people should kind of writeabout because it is a real thing,
you know, And when I readthose, I was like, whoa,
man, I know exactly how youfeel. I have been here. It's
so painful because suddenly you lose theperson you you could like just randomly text

(25:36):
at like twelve am about like,you know, whatever is on your mind
that day, and then when thefriendship ends, suddenly there is that void
at twelve am, when you're awakeand you're like, who do I text
now? Who can I who canI open up about my animals thoughts too?
Yeah, it's just like yeah,and that void is very hard to

(25:59):
express because we don't wait friendship asmuch as we do romantic relationships in society
overall. That's so true, yea, yeah, yeah, yeah, but
that's that's one of the things thatI feel like we try and make everything
about romance right, and people dotalk about like you know you have you
have a lot of authors who havehad very close friendship over the years with

(26:22):
people, and they and they oftenhave like especially when you're talking about way
back at the at the maybe turnof the of the twentieth century, they
write letters to each other and they'revery very close, and people always want
to make make out that that's aromantic thing, right, whereas we've never
really had many opportunities to to justconsider that this is just a very very

(26:45):
close friendship and a very close tothe stage where you feel like, like
I think a lot of marriages won'tyou won't really have that much time to
spend with each other as much asyou had with her, right right,
exactly? Yeah, So so justthat that that idea that beings close somebody
else it has to be something morethan that. But you know, just
isn't that enough that it's friendship?Right? Absolutely? I think one of

(27:08):
the things that I really felt likeso touched in the way that you described
it was that, you know,I basically just you just didn't understand how
it just went away. People wouldprobably say to you like, why is
this should big deal? Like somebodywas there and then they're not. How
how long did it take you toprocess that and to be able to write
about it? Five years? Yeah? Like I had been thinking about writing

(27:32):
about this for five years, butyou need that I needed that distance from
all those events and to maybe growup a little bit more to accept that,
you know, this is just theway some things are. Which is
it? On the one hand thatthat might sound a bit defeat as well.
On the other hand, that feelsmore like a sort of acceptance,

(27:52):
like some things have a season andsome and when that season is over,
you know you went to a differentseason, But that doesn't mean that season
was any less beautiful. M Butyou also have to grief for the end
of that friendship as well. Ithink, you know, and that is
the time it's almost like a littledeath. It is so much like a
little death. And I think youknow, I shelved that those two years

(28:17):
of Kyoto away for a long time, and I just didn't want to think
about it and I got on withlife. And when I started to write
this, and I finished this bookin a month, so I often joked
to people it was like five yearsof thera be condensed into one month of
writing. And I learned much moreabout, like how I felt about the
event and how I felt about thelast few years in that one month,
and I did maybe not thinking aboutit for five years, which brings me

(28:41):
to this this transient feelings that Danataught me. The name is Mono no
awari, you know, So Ithink there's a lot of things that you
capture in the book. So thebook is like a combo. It's like
a relation Japanese e kind of likethe way it's written, right, because
both me and Dan are huge fansof Japanese fiction, and how it is
there's a very particular feel to aJapanese story, right and you and it's

(29:06):
this. It is to capture allthese fleeting, kind of transient feelings that
I think the Japanese are very goodat. Tell us a little bit more
about why you think that these aremoments that we also should celebrate a little
bit more like just having a goodcup of tea or enjoying silence, you
know, cycling down the river,and how we lose this, I think
in today's world where everything is sobusy, because your book has that vibe.

(29:29):
Your book is a vibe, bythe way. I love that.
It's a vibe. I feel likethat should be on the back cover.
It's a vibe. The other descriptionof my book I actually really love is
somebody described it as it's a greatway to kill time on the plane,
and I just want that on theback of my book. I kind of
love it. That's a huge compliment. It is because like, wow,
somebody is bringing us on the planeto spend their like three hours on a

(29:53):
plane reading the book. This isgreat, Like I would love for that
anyway. Yes, it's no,no, no, Awari. It's the
kind of transient feelings that that thatyou feel the beauty in the fleeting.
Yeah. I think it's any Dillardwho says how you live, how you
spend your days is how you liveyour life or something like that, and
you know, your life is basicallya series of days that sort of pile

(30:15):
up on one on top of oneanother. And I'm just thinking about you
know, I think I read Iwas reading an anecdote from somebody who was,
you know, fretting about how theytheir work. Their writing was,
you know, just about the smallthings in life and like, you know,

(30:37):
small beautiful things. And they werelike, but this is very insignificant.
It's not very important. And thensomebody said, somebody who was an
activist or something said yeah, sure, my work we fight for like,
you know, all these noble andimportant causes, but we fight for that
so that we can enjoy your work. Something. It was something like that.

(30:59):
I think it was. Damn,I wish I could remember the proper
quote. It was really beautiful.It was like, we fight justice is
what we fight for, but beautyis what we live for. I think
was the was the sentiment there,and what is the point of living if
you can't enjoy beautiful things like thesmall moments from the day to day.

(31:22):
I think there is a lot ofemphasis placed on success with the capitals,
like the ticking off of the biglife goals more capital letters like I don't
know that promotion or whatever. Butthe stuff you remember, I think is
are like, you know, thestupid jokes with your friends, or like
the particular meal where somebody said somethingreally touching and important to you, or

(31:48):
a particular tree you might have meton on your travels somewhere. I think
those moments tend to stay with youmuch more than you know, your fifth
promotion at this particular job or whateverthere's people post on LinkedIn. Yeah,
yeah, but I do feel thatyou need to kind of go through life
a little bit to actually realize absolutelyright, Like yeah, absolutely, it's

(32:12):
really experiencing and realizing that all thesegoals don't mean anything unless you, you
know, have people to spend itwith, or you can actually enjoy a
meal without having to rush off tofinish a deadline. Absolutely. You know,
sometimes just being able to sit downand just enjoy a meal without being
your under clock could just be thatlittle mono no awari in your life,

(32:36):
right, you know. Like,but just to be able to be present,
I think that's that's what it is, to be present in your life
as supposed to just chasing the nextthing, the next thing. Absolutely,
And you couldn't have convinced me ofthat in my early twenties, because in
your early twenties, you're like,you're not a person. And I'm still
not a person yet my early thirties, but you you are. I was

(32:58):
so eager to prove myself to become somebody or to be somebody that you
know, you couldn't have convinced methat. Oh, actually the small moments
are really important because I was like, what do I have on my resume
that that you know, tells theworld that I am worth noticing or looking
at, which is ironic because thesedays all I want to do is not
to be perceived. I can resonatewith that, but definitely, I think

(33:24):
I think, yeah, we're we'reoften caught up in in wanting to make
a mark on the world, rightwe want to be to matter, we
want to be seen. But Ithink there's such wisdom in the way you
describe, you know how it's thesmall moments that really really hang on that

(33:45):
you hang on to, that youreally if you think about them, that's
when you really actually are living.That's one thing that this book can really
give you, that sense of understandingwhat it means to really put your hand
on something and really feel it andreally think about it. Yeah, especially
like the way you described drinking tea, you know, I think I think

(34:07):
that that's maybe the tea ceremony isone of those things where you really get
to slow time down and really bein the moment in a way that most
of us just really we are notconnected with that sense at all most of
the time. I think to enterthe tea room is to step into another

(34:30):
world. When we arrive, theroad in front of the entrance is wet
with freshly sprinkled water, letting usknow he's ready to welcome us. In
crossing the threshold, peace settles onme like snow on a tree. We
leave the chaos of the outside worldbehind the world of fire for the tranquility
of the tea room. The worldof water, we enter a space where

(34:52):
silence is possible. I grew tolove the moments of silence in the tea
room. In part it was aretreat from my work. I would constantly
talk to people for two days,lecturing, answering questions, offering hopefully funny
anecdotes and factoids. Sometimes I smiledso much my face her. But when
Michael began making tea, the conversationwould slow and fade as everyone else shushed

(35:15):
each other to watch. In atea room, I could let the tea
speak for itself. There are manydifferent forms of silence, the quietness of
snow piling up, the throbbing ofyour blood, Silence, animosity, Silence
is what you hear when you removenoise. It seems like tea itself.
At the heart of this right ofhospitality and all its trappings is simply this.

(35:38):
The host makes the tea, andthe guests drinks the tea. Everything
else's noise. One of the thingsthat really struck me when I was reading
this was that you know, youressays are very much akin to those objects
that you talk about in the teaMaster's tea room. You know, all

(36:00):
these are your memories that that you'veloved and they're as precious as these objects
to you, So how easy wasit for you to put them out there?
And and when your book is outthere essentially leaving the room, letting
your reader readers pick up handle runtheir fingers across your thoughts, and how
do you feel about that? It'sit's actually it's a huge honor for people

(36:25):
to for me to have people likewant to do that. I think one
of the things I've noticed with sincethe book was published is that it's not
because it's not an easy book todescribe in a sentence or like in like
catching marketing speak. It is oneof those books that does much better if

(36:45):
you leave it in a bookstore andsomebody picks it up and actually leaves through.
It is kind of hard to tellyou in an Instagram post what it's
about. And that's I think that'sokay. Like I'm not really wedded.
I've worked very hard to not bewedded to Instagram success in that regard.

(37:06):
But also because of the sort oftime capsule nature of the book, it
really does feel like somebody else atthis point wrote it. It feels like
it feels like a you know,when you release a book or any kind
of like creative work into the world, it kind of leaves you. It
becomes a separate part. And youknow, I don't know if I fully
believe in death of the author,but you know, in a sense,
it is death of the author,like people are going to have their own

(37:28):
relationships with it. So I findthat very meaningful. It's like when you're
saying that it's a time cap,so I liken it a little bit too
old friends, yes, because theyremember how you were at that age.
Yes, that person that you've forgottenalready, and sometimes just sitting there with
an old friend, it's kind ofreassuring to know that in either how far

(37:50):
you've come or how you have notchanged fundamentally. Yes, you know what
I mean. So maybe this bookfor you is that right, Like you
can read back it again and realizethat, oh, this was the person
I was, Yes, I know, and yeah, and how far I've
come or how I'm still save insome things you know, Yeah I don't.
In many ways, it's kind ofnice. Yeah, no, the
person everybody should write a little memoirof your time, even if nobody looks

(38:12):
at it, is really important foryourself, Like because like, you know,
that's the nice thing about creative work. I think you you know so
many years later, you know,the accolades don't really mean anything, but
then you have the thing you createdwith at that time, and I think
that's really precious. So speaking abouttime capsules, the stuff you write about

(38:35):
kiss Attends. Honestly, when Iread it, I desperately wanted to open
one. I don't know why.I just called that with a friend.
Yeah, I call up a friendbecause this friend of mine wanted to find
an office and I'm like why,He's like, a yeah, because you
know my in laws, I thoughton my head, so I don't think
I can work anymore at Hope.And then I said, hey, instead
of finding an office, why don'twe open a kiss attend And he's like,

(38:58):
wait what He's like, you know, it's kind of like an office,
but there's a big kitchen and whateverwe feel like cooking on that day.
And he's like, you don't evenlike coffee, honey, I mean,
it's that's fine. We can.We can serve high balls, you
know, right, we pay anold uncle to sit at a corner and
look very interesting, right, andthen and then whatever we feel like cooking.

(39:19):
We tell people to copy are standing, get eat it, and he's
like going, oh my god,who has the time for this, honey.
But anyway, so why I loveabout it is because it's a neighborhood
hang out. And why do youthink a place like that is important for
a community as supposed to just chasingthe latest restaurant, the latest cafe that's
pretty because you know, kissatans aredingy and he's said uncle Parler here,

(39:43):
he's an uncle pub. It's anuncle pub. Is a coffee gampy.
The closest equivalent is really the cornercoffee shop. But because part of it
is it really roots you in aplace in a way that some like cafe
hopping around the newest places and necessarilydo. One of the things that I
find really admirable about Japan generally islike the commitment people have to their endeavors

(40:09):
a lot of the time, especiallythese sort of small mom and pop businesses.
Once like, you know, there'sa real acceptance of their role in
life and what they do. There'slike, okay, I run the sky
Sutton, I'm going to run itfor like the next six decades, And
it's like, do you want todo anything else, well, no,

(40:29):
this is my role in the community, and so so so much of it
is based on like community relationships aswell, like oh if I if I
don't open today, then this personmight not be able to come and have
their favorite cup of coffee like theydo every every Wednesday or whatever. And
when they do close, it's likewhen they do have the close for emergencies
or whatever, it's like, Oh, I'm really sorry we got to close

(40:50):
today. They'll be back. Yeah. It is the importance of having a
third space, you know, thatplace where that is not work, that
place that is not your home life. I think some of the things we
miss the most during the pandemic,for example, where those spaces where we
could go out and be somebody slightlydifferent, but you know, in a

(41:12):
space that you didn't have to clean, you didn't have to and somebody was
who made stuff for you, andit was just and somebody you know,
who you could who you had apassing relationship with, but you weren't necessarily
best friends, but that was okaybecause seeing them kind of reassures you where

(41:32):
you are. It's kind of likewhen your favorite hawker shop closes down and
you know that bawl of like labsthat you look forward to every like weekend
or whatever. It was like,oh that that that that loss of the
anchoring routine or the thing that youthink is always going to be there and
isn't so so that that's another formof like breakup. I think it has
a very destabilizing effect I think onpeople, whether they realize it or not.

(41:58):
It's like, let chuck with yourlady is always going to be there.
I have a heartbreak or I havea bad day, she's there and
sudday she's no longer there, rightexactly you know exactly what you mean,
I mean, which is why Ithink I really I love that. But
and this idea that somebody dedicates theirlife to be this person that's always going
to be there, it's a kindof nobility in it isn't. Yes,

(42:19):
absolutely you know it feels like,oh my god, can can somebody do
this? But but you're right,the Japanese can really do it. They
can make the same thing over andover again to attain some kind of nivrona
of that thing. Right absolutely,like and and I have to add a
cava head not you know, hashtagnot all Japanese, right, guys,
But there is a much greater liketendency for that to happen in Japan.

(42:44):
Like, you know, you havebusinesses that they're running for five hundred,
six hundred years because they chose tocarry on this like tradition of making stuff.
And I'm not saying, you know, that is inherently noble in itself,
but it's kind of cool that someyou know, there are some families
or some people with that level ofcommitment and life's purpose. You know,
you know, it almost a bitenvious of people who have this kind of

(43:04):
like very steady life's purpose, right, Like it's to be the anchor to
somebody, right, which is liketo be this this place of solace for
lonely people or whatever, right,and to always be that that light at
the end of that dark road exactlythe way, right. Yeah. So
anyway, again, guys, readthis book. It's really good. Yeah,

(43:24):
it's so beautiful. I have toI have to say that a lot
of times you read a book andyou kind of feel like there's a certain
curation that people are doing with theirthoughts. But I thought that Florentina this
book, you were so honest withit because you know, you tell us
a lot of like you see,you're holding back a little bit when you're

(43:45):
talking about tourists. But yeah,there, there, there is that.
Honestly, there's very annoying Storists arevery annoying right now. We can't help
people when we are we are alsovery Yeah, I should add to this
claim, and I am also thatI can also be that annoying tour So

(44:05):
it's I'm not standing on a moralhigh ground here. But no, no,
there, there's no there's no stageI have to clarify. There's no
stage in which you descend into rantsor anything. That it was. It
was all very acceptable. I thinkA thinks definitely it's something that we don't
see. So it's it's good tosee it from your point of view.
What is it like do you thinkbeing a permanent resident of Japan compared to

(44:30):
being somebody who just passes through,just comes to you just just for the
sites. What what is your yourtake on Japan as being somebody who is
their long term, you know,compared to somebody who who just comes and
just sees the sites. You know, Like, what do you think the
benefits of takeaways that you get fromfrom seeing the country so in depth,
what what is what is something thatyou have you have understood about the country

(44:53):
from being that permanent resident, likethat Japan is extremely bureaucratic, Like I
mean, this is the stuff youyou deal with, like any I think
as a local anywhere, it's notthe pretty sites are not the primary thing
on your mind. It's the logisticsof the administration of your day to day

(45:14):
and particularly as someone who is selfemployed, the administration and the bureaucracy are
never very far from the front ofmy mind. So not the sexiest thing
I have to say, but youknow, it has its own interesting aspects
to it, like so during andI can't believe I'm about to descend it
to talking about taxes, but Iam. You know, I should say,

(45:37):
people like the tax officers are usuallyreally helpful, like that you go
to them during tax filing seasons andthey will help you file your taxes there
then as long as you have allthe documents. But it can also be
insanely annoyingly bureaucratic in that, youknow, you know how Japan's still a
lot of them still use stamps likechops And I went to go register to

(46:00):
my personal seal, which is ofmy Chinese name. And when I got
there to the counter, I waslike, hey, I want to reach
my seal so I can use itfor official documentation because we got to do
that. And then the guy looksat my seal and then he does that
thing that people do. They're likethe sucking air through your teeth, you
know, like and you know thatmeans trouble, right, It's like,

(46:23):
oh, there's this hesitation of no, what's going on? I was like,
okay, what's up? And hewas like, you're an Alasian,
right, I can feel that physically. I was like, yeah, I'm
Alaysian. What's up. He's like, well, your seal isn't kanji like

(46:44):
the Chinese characters. And I waslike, yes, is that problem?
That's my name? And he's like, well, Alasia's official language does not
include Chinese, so you cannot haveChinese characters on your seal. You must
have Roman or characters or the Catakanacharacters. You can't use Chinese characters.

(47:04):
And I was like, but whynot, it's my name. He's like,
and I was like, you knowwhat, it's it's impossible. It
is completely useless to be fighting thisso I had to go make a new
seal. Oh my god. Yeah. They have a lot of noises over
there to show different different degrees ofdisapproval, approval, happiness, right,

(47:29):
Yeah, and the teeth through yourteeth is one major one. If you
go to a government department and theydo that, Yeah, that's probably one
of the most terrifying things over here. It's not clicking your thought. Oh
my god, really like, ohmy god. Well, yeah, bureaucracy

(48:07):
exists everywhere, but yeah, Imean, you know, there's gotta be
something. There's something about Japan thateveryone feels like, you know, like
they would just love to move toJapan and just it's just gonna be all
about you know that lazy days ina cherry blossoms he has in the cherry
bloss and you know, just justjust everything's gonna be just so beautiful and

(48:30):
and and you'd be slipping green teaall the time, like you don't think
about the practical things like that.Yeah. Yeah, And I mean I
think people have that impression because whenyou travel there, things work like infrastructurally,
like Japan is a really great placeto be. The trains run on
time if they're late, like bythirty seconds, there is a major apology

(48:52):
for whatever reason, it's only thirtyseconds. Like you know, in the
UK, trains gonna be forty fiveminutes late and there's just another Monday.
But in Japan, the forty fiveminutes later and as a national catastrophe makes
the national news. I think abig part of society just functioning like smooth
reasonably smoothly is a big draw formany people who come to Japan because it's

(49:15):
often so different from like wherever elsewe are from. You know, people
stand on the left side of theescalator so that you can other people can
walk past them, or you know, people are people have a very strong
sense of personal space, so thatI mean maybe on the trains you can't
help it. Everyone's kind of squishedtogether. But like, yeah, there's

(49:38):
I think I was talking about thisyesterday somebody. But there is a Japanese
expression kugyo yomo to read the air, and so like it's kind of equivalent
to read the room, but readthe air feels like, as this person
points out, much more of animpossible task. And you're always aware of
your you are on some level,always try to be aware of your position

(49:58):
relative to others, And that's partof I think what makes things function,
because you're trying not to cause troublefor others. There's a there's a lot
of emphasis on rules and like alot of rules for that reason. You
are not supposed to be a nuisance. Like that's like one of the worst
things you can do. You youcause trouble for other people. And it

(50:19):
is a difficult. It's difficult,you know, even for Japanese people to
live up to those ideals obviously,Like it is stressful. I think we're
much more stressful to be Japanese thanit is to be a foreigner in Japan.
It's the sense of duty and beingpart of the collective right a lot
of the times, you know,like you know, civic, civic,
civic's right, and it's it's it'swonderful when it works right, you know,

(50:44):
Like you you see those clips ofJapanese fans at World Cup stadiums,
like always cleaning up after and Ithink that is a really wonderful aspect like
it. And I was I thinkI was talking about this yesterday again to
somebody, to other people. Butyou know, small actions on our part,
yeah, help make somebody else's lifeeasier. So and I see you

(51:06):
see this in customer service especially andhaving work customer service, Like, I
think it's something everybody should do becausewe are so we treat our stuff,
so customer service staff so terribly likejust stuff like you know, everybody,
a lot of people will just stacktheir plates neatly and bring it to the
counter where you know, then thestuff don't have to like walk over and

(51:27):
clean the table and stack everything.For you, you it only takes you
to do it, but for them, they are doing like dozens of tables
and like hundreds of customers a day, so it just makes their life easier.
And it's for almost no effort onyour part. And that's the sort
of conscientiousness that I really value.Over there, right, let's talk about
eggs. Eggs, Yes, eggs, you are food right though, you

(51:50):
know, I go after my ownstomach and you right here, I mean
knowing someone means knowing how they liketheir eggs. I have my own theory.
Oh no, I guess anecdote isthat I think everybody should know how
to make good scrambled eggs. Everybody, because it's the breakfast that you have
in the morning after you should knowyou should have bread eggs, but okay,

(52:15):
and making good scrambled eggs. Ifeel it's like it's almost like that
that intimate breakfast you have in themorning for somebody that you love or somebody
just had sex with, or youknow. It's that idea, right,
And I like when you say Ihave what egg tells you everything you need
to know about a person or howthey like their eggs. Right, So,
how do you like your eggs?You wrote it in the book,

(52:35):
but has it changed depending who you'rewith. Yeah, I think it's also
very much depends on my mood.But you know, because I'm back here,
I really enjoy the host softbolled eggswith the soy sauce and the white
pepper, because the gampong eggs heretastes different from than they do in Japan,
and I think it's just like youknow, how you raise your chickens

(52:57):
or when you feed them, buthere, I just like how they taste
with soy sauce and white pepper,whereas the eggs I get in Japan are
like super rich and I don't havethemselves boiled in the morning. They just
taste too rich, but they arefantastic broken over, like say, like
a rice and curry. How elsethey're like my eggs. There was a
period in my life I really likeFrida eggs. I have gone off Frida

(53:21):
eggs a little bit, charing Machiand steamed eggs, and I really love
those. There's no love quite likeegglove. I'm talking about that. Knowing
how someone likes their eggs. Doyou really know if someone if you can't
say whether they prefer eggs fried orpoached. My father loves his quick omelets,

(53:43):
cracked straight into the walk and flashstirred until just tender, streaked yellow
and white. His ideal half boiledegg has white, slightly firm and cooked,
but a guy yolk. My mother'sis closer to three quarters than half.
Mine is closer to on sin tamago, as it is my older sisters.
But I douse mine with ashings ofwhite pepper and too much soy sauce.
My sisters and I watch in fascinatedhorror as our youngest siblings stirs hers

(54:06):
until uniformly colored, not a traceof white permitted to remain. Half wailed
egg tells you everything you need toknow about a person. I know my
mother loves me because my minced porkomelet is exactly how I like it.
A surf eats small lovely bits ofegg meat coated an egg. I know
my partner loves me because he letsme break the yolk on a fried egg.
He knows how much I like watchingthe orange lava spill forth with an

(54:29):
almost inaudible sigh when I press myspoon onto its filmy surface. Love is
every single egg pun I give andreceive, And when we can make scramble
eggs to each other's liking. It'sjealousy that he learned to cook them from
someone I can't stand, but pridebecause mine are better. It's love when
we debate the merits of conveni eggsandwiches and who does it better. It's
love when friends wait for me tofilm an egg collapsing into rice before eating.

(54:52):
It's love too, when friends tagme in post because hashtag yolk porn
reminds them of me. Yeah,I mean, like, what's your favorite
kyoto food? I recently finished watchingmccannie house, and I just want to
eat everything. It's lovely, isn'tYeah, it's such a lovely sure,

(55:13):
I would like to watch more ofit, but it's it's just so pure.
Yes, yes, it's my favoriteKioto food. I think it would
be team Okay, it would beit would be green tea, the specifically
whist Marcher, and then followed byprobably so malk raman, which I absolutely
love. Wow, So you actuallymade the ramen in Sawyer. Yeah.

(55:35):
Yeah. Yeah. So there's thisone guy who I've been going to since
like twenty twelve, and his familyused to be a yudo fush He's around
a Yudofu restaurant and udo fool islike it literally just means boiled tofu.
So basically it's like a kyoto tofuhotpot, and it sounds like the most
boring thing in the world. It'sdelicious. I'm sorry, Oh okay,
no, no from anything, okay, So yes, so is basically like

(56:00):
you know kyoto, right, yeah, and they use savory exactly exactly.
Yeah. So it is like,yeah, just really good tofu in like
a cormbo like kelp broth. Butthen he switched over into making soy milk
raman. And raman is usually quiterich, right, really really fatty,
really heavy, but he uses it'san entirely vegan raman as well. I

(56:23):
mean, if you're if you careabout that sort of thing. But it's
just a really rich, soy milk, like the one, the one that
almost has a really velvety texture whenyou live just spoon. It's not like
the crappy, you know, sugarfilled stuff and you literally feel like you're
drinking tofu when you have it.It's just incredible. And then you're foot

(56:44):
too on top what they call you. But but it's basically really fresh foot.
That sounds amazing. Oh my god, Oh yeah, that would be
perfectly Yeah, yeah, that soundsamazing. I would definitely like to try
that. I was just just reflectingon on like you know, there are

(57:04):
so many traditions that are similar betweenlike you know, the Japanese food and
Chinese, also Malaysian food. Like, what what do you think if you
have you were to write a Malaysianversion of this book, have Malaysian essays?
Wow? What would you put init? A good question? She
always comes out with a very goodquestions. Yeah, yeah, and it's

(57:25):
a great question because, like youknow, I have thought about it over
the years, like could I couldI write about Malaysia? And I often
feel like because I don't live here, anymore. I don't know that I
could, you know, write aboutit with any like real depths hypothetically well,

(57:45):
just like you had to move slowlyaway from Tooto to process that.
Perhaps that distance plus used to havefamily here. Definitely going to be Luxo
in it. She mentioned Luxo severaltimes. My favorite, Oh my god,
Yeah, I had great us altsniclast week. Amazing. We used

(58:05):
to say, bit for are you? I think I think this might be
an idea for you to like tomull upon. I would love to see
what you would have to say aboutthis project. It's I think it's I
think it's difficult, because then thatmeans reckoning with you know, my quote
unquote identity here, which is whichyou do very very briefly touch upon book.

(58:30):
Yeah, it's I mean, Ithink I think for many of us
who leave overseas, it's kind offrauds, isn't it. I don't think
I fully really come to terms withit, because then you suddenly open up
the whole can of worms about raceand socio economic class and your place in

(58:53):
that and how you relate to otherpeople. In a sense, writing about
Japan as a foreigner, there isa lot easier because you have you as
foreigner versus like, and in Japanis not as homogeneous as people like to
think. But for all intents andpurposes, I think how many people perceive
it, it does make it easierto write about. And that's why people

(59:15):
can make blanket statements like the Japaneseeven though that's not strictly true. But
it's very hard to make blanket statementsabout Malaysia. The Malaysians, I don't.
You couldn't say that with any anyconviction because then a million voices pop
up and go, hey, butwhat about because that's true that there is

(59:36):
there is such a multiplicity of experiencesand viewpoints here that I haven't reconciled.
You know, I haven't figured outwhere I would sit in that sort of
multiplicity. M Is that overthinking?Probably not at all. So what's next?

(01:00:00):
Blown food memoir? Would you haverecipes? Oh? That's my question
because I love a good food memo. Yeah, because at that part set
of food that you wrote here remindsme a bit of one of my favorite
ones, which is Midnight Chicken.Oh, Mad Night Chicken's lovely. Yeah,
you know, so that's that's bitsof that when I was reading this
stuff where you wrote about food,right, because this is not essentially my
mom about food, but there's foodin it, right, So would you

(01:00:22):
would you? Would you want todo something like that? Would you?
It's funny because this started as afood memoir, like it started as a
primarily food driven like travel and essaysand I and then I realized that it
just wasn't enough. I felt towrite only about food. I have spent

(01:00:43):
I spent most of my teenagers andtwenties, you know, primarily like writing
about food, or at least definingmyself that way. And that is still
I think what most people know mefor, especially like some of my food
journalism in the last few years aroundJapan. But I also feel like,
not that I've outgrown it per se, but I feel like there's more.

(01:01:06):
There are other avenues I want toexplore, and I don't know what those
are yet. Stories, graphic novels. Yeah, Like you know, I
at the moment, I can't writefiction to save my life, at least,
that's why I always tell people.But I feel like that's something that
could be really interesting. I knowwhatever I decide to do next will require

(01:01:28):
whatever percolation time because like that tookfive years. I'm not saying the next
one will take five years, butand then write it in my mind,
yeah something. So so that's that'sThat's an interesting thing that I realized about
myself writing this. I cannot workon something for like, you know,
like an hour or day, butfive years. I can't do it.
I have to like fully commit tosomething, which means holding down an office
job is really bad because I wishit's not good for me because if I

(01:01:52):
am hit by this bug, Ihave to go chase it. Yeah.
So I'm not very good corporate slaveunfortunately, but maybe maybe life is better
for that. Okay, So,so since you do touch on how you
started the book, can you tellus a little bit about how what what
was the birthing process? Like howdid this book coming to being? Right?

(01:02:16):
So, the Mr Press who publishedthis book, I followed their work
for a while because they've released somestuff that I enjoyed, like Nina Minia
Pals and Tiny Moons and she wenton to write a lovely nature memoir.
And they put out a call foryou know, submissions for essay collection proposals,
and I had been mulling over essaycollection writing an essay collection for years,

(01:02:40):
but in the usual manner of likeyou know how we all procrastinate.
I would sort of write a listof topics down, like like I was
writing a menu, and then Iwould look at that list and then not
look at it again for like fourmonths a few months, and I would
write these in like random notebook andthen promptly lose them all like bits of
paper. But there were always therewere some very consistent things that thematic things

(01:03:05):
that kept coming back, like tMoss even personmans actually, because I had
kept journals and personments or whatever andwrote a few food blogs about personments,
which I've now taken down. Butwhen they put out that call for essay
submissions, I realize, Okay,you know what, maybe this is the

(01:03:25):
time to do it, because ifI don't do it, if I don't
do it now, I probably willnever do it, because I would keep
making excuses not to do it.So I wrote the proposal, I sent
in a writing sample, and thenpromptly forgot about it for like after the
deadline, for however long it was, three months. Yeah, I forgot
about it for three months. Ididn't expect to hear back from them.
And I was just like, youknow what, I did it. This

(01:03:45):
is great. I compat myself onthe back that I finished a thing that
meant to finish. And then theycome back in September and go, hey,
we've shortlisted you down to ten people. Do you were a manuscript for
us? And I was like,I have to write this fucking manuscript.
Oh my god. Yeah, yeah. You are obviously a date line based
person. I'm a dadline based person. This is why, like, freelance
journalism can work quite well for me, because it holds me accountable to something

(01:04:08):
like a very concrete expectation from somebodyelse. And so I was like shit,
and I had three months to submitsomething. Then whole of September and
October that year it's twenty twenty one, I was working non stop because it
was like tourist season and I wassuper busy. I actually no, that
was during a pandemic. What wasthat busy with. I was busy with

(01:04:29):
stuff like working and trying to paymy bills. So and then toward the
end of October, I was like, Okay, I need to take November
off. I need to like Ihad to like develope that month or I
will not finish this. So Imade all the money I could that month
and then took spent sixteen hours aday in November writing. I think my
partner nearly like threw me out thewindow because my mechanical keyboard is so loud,

(01:04:54):
Like I apparently I'm a really angrytypist. I just sort of like
my sister recently she was listening toher, She's like, like, it's
like if I own a typewriter,I think my neighbors would disowned me.
So but that that's how I wrotethe book. I would wake up about
eight nine am every day and justlike work until like past midnight, and

(01:05:15):
then repeat the process all over againnext day until it was done. It
kind of feels a little bit likelike like you experience this kind of cathasis
for writing it Is that how youfeel about it? Yet? Yeah?
Yeah, Like I like the jetLike I said, I think, I
said five years of therapy in onemonth because I had to like confront a

(01:05:38):
lot of stuff I didn't want tothink about, like, because the book
started evolving very quickly during the firstweek of like really sitting down to right,
I was like, oh, thisis not the you know, light
breezy travel food memor that I thoughtthis was going to be this is going
to be kind of heavy. Ohno, and yeah. I So that
required a lot of like sitting withmyself and like having to look through old

(01:06:00):
photos and remember stuff that I didn'twant to remember, like for the rain
essay. You know, that wasa I was a very close friend and
that was a friendship that I stillregret like losing. And I had to
look I had I hadn't thought aboutthat years, but I had to like
force myself to look through all ourold chat transcripts, and that was really
painful because we used to talk somuch, like despite time z own differences,

(01:06:27):
Like I would get a text fromthem, like text from them in
the morning, we'd have we'd watchmusicals on Skype together and then yeah,
so looking through all those photos wasvery painful. We have to probably answering,
right, because he has gone onfor quite sometimes. I'm so sorry,
but it's okay. I have somany questions, maybe wanted to a

(01:06:47):
book questions. What is on yourbitsite table at the moment, what are
you reading it? I read anygood books lately? I am reading Love
and Saffron at the moment which Minhanand Elaine Kay the gifted me after the
book talk last week? Last week? Was it last week? So that's
really kind of it. I'm reallyenjoying it. It's a lovely memoir of

(01:07:09):
a friendship between two women who likecorrespond through letters, like swapping recipes as
well, which I think is reallysweet. So I'm looking forward to continuing
that when I have a bit moretime. At the start of July,
I embarked on a rereading of Lordof the Rings. Oh. One of
my closest friends is a huge Lordof the Rings nerd, and I was

(01:07:31):
like, all right, you knowwhat, I'm gonna reread it so we
can talk about it. Oh that'sso cool. We need to do that,
honey. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm move with you to reread
it. Definitely definitely been a while, I would be too. Yeah.
Wow, yeah, I want todo more questions and we can as it
too. Yes, reading. Okay. So for those who have enjoyed this

(01:07:53):
book and would like to explore moreof your writing, is there somewhere that
they can look you up? Maybeon a blog or all you know where
you have collected all your writings,or maybe Instagram paths. Okay, Instagram
is not a bad platform. Mywebsite florentin La dot com has my portfolio.

(01:08:14):
I really should update it, butit has links to some of the
writing I care about, so likesome of my long form journalism for say
gastro Obscure, some of the stuffI've done to the Japan Times and so
this is not out yet, butI'm also working on a magazine with a
couple of friends, and this year'sissue is Raman themed. So the magazine

(01:08:36):
is Sankaku Magazine, and we areprobably going to try and come to kill
our book fair as well, sothat'd be fun. Yeah, yeah,
we'll do. It's very much.It's not like a guy. It's true
to how we like to do things. It is not a guidebook to ramen.
It is more like an in depthlook at things surrounding Raman. So,

(01:08:59):
for example, if you'd a secondJapanese woman who went to space and
I talked to about her experience ofeating ramen in space, Wow, she's
really cool. We also went tointerview one of the most famous noodle makers
in Japan, Noodle Factories, andthey're based like they're a tiny family run
factory in Kyoto, Like the factoryis maybe about twice the size of this

(01:09:25):
room, and that's kind of it. But they supply over eight hundred shops
in Japan, like to some ofthe some of the some of Japan's top
ramen shops, so their story isreally interesting as well. To be clear,
we are in a probably mid sizedbedroom, said I would say,
so it's not very big at all. Please say that the very the recipe

(01:09:46):
for the very very delicious ramen thatyou mentioned before will be somewhere somewhere in
this in this magazine as well.Last I don't think he shares his but
you'd have to go to Kyoto theplaces old tozen t ows at e n
and because it's a vegan ramen youget a lot of them non Japanese people

(01:10:06):
flocking them because there are a lotof people who could travel am writing this
down as we speak, ye whoare like vegan and the food options but
them, so he's been one ofthe reliable like places to go to for
vegans ramen. M hmm, I'mhungry already, so shall we shall we
end this? Thank you so much, Valentina. This was an amazing It

(01:10:30):
was an amazing experience. And privilegeto read a book and I don't know
somehow I feel like, you know, you don't know how I eat my
eggs, but I know like somuch about you. Now, yeah,
that's kind of scary. I realize, like you can tell her how you
like to eat your eggs. Well, well yeah, well yes I will.
But at the same time, youknow, like it just feels like

(01:10:53):
like I just this that whole experienceof you talking about that friend and you
never knew how she had her eggs. Then it makes me really think about
how we don't actually know people.You know, you think you know someone
really well, and then there's layersto them that you just never explored.
But now you've got this book outthere and people know so much about you,

(01:11:16):
Like people feel very close to youafter reading your book, you know.
So yeah, I mean like Idon't want to thank you for that,
thank you for thank you sharing yourthoughts like that. Yeah, and
thank you for making this happen.This is a real pleasure. I didn't
expect to have such a fun conversationand all that. So it's such a
good chat. We have to nexttime you come. As I'm like,

(01:11:39):
oh my god, yes, myfamily's as I'm like, yes, that's
a privilege right there. Well pla, are you still in town for a
while until Friday? No, that'snot much, so I think it will
have to be next time, orif we ever go to Tokyo. Yes,
please took me up. If i'mand if you come to Tokyo okay

(01:12:00):
aw yes, yes, very important. Hope you enjoyed the interview. As
usual, you can find two Booknutstalking at TBNT Books on Instagram, Two
book Nuts Talking on Facebook and TBNTpot on Twitter. You can reach out

(01:12:20):
to us at Booknuts Talking at gmaildot com. Have a great bookish month.