TBNT S07E03 | Food, Murder, and Power in Butter by Asako Yuzuki

We're talking about Butter by Asako Yuzuki (translated by Polly Barton) in this episode. Whew! There's a lot to unpack in this book, from delectable desciptions of food, to possible murders, the power struggle between the characters... this book is so much more than it seems. 

Inspired by the real case of the convicted con woman and serial killer, "The Konkatsu Killer", the books is about gourmet cook Manako Kajii sits in Tokyo Detention Centre convicted of the serial murders of lonely businessmen, who she is said to have seduced with her delicious home cooking. The case has captured the nation’s imagination but Kajii refuses to speak with the press, entertaining no visitors. That is, until journalist Rika Machida writes a letter asking for her recipe for beef stew and Kajii can’t resist writing back. What happens after this is a real roller coaster of a read. 

We hope you enjoy this episode and if you've read Butter, let us knwo what you think!

SPECIAL ANNOUNCMENT: The Aesop Women's Library is back this year! Stay tuned for our special epsiodes in collaboration with Aesop Malaysia to find out the book selections this year, author interviews, and more! 

Live, laugh, love, and read well. 

Episode Transcript

(00:11):
Hello, friends and book lovers.We are here to discuss a genre of
books that both me and Diana reallylove, which is a book written by
a Japanese author, something very mouthwatering, very subversive. I think this
is probably one of those really interestingreads for me this year. It's called
Butter, a novel of food andmurder. I know that was completely up

(00:35):
your ally, honey, another foodand murder. That's completely your bag,
right, So, and it isreally about food and murder, yes,
but it's about so much more.Oh my god, so much in this
book. I honestly think that ittook me so long to finish this book.
Not that it's a hard book toread, but it's just so much

(00:55):
to unpacking it. There's so muchto digest pun intended. It's not at
all what I expected it to be. Butter is by Asako Yuzuki. She's
quite a prolific writer, but Ihaven't actually read anything she's written. I'm
not even sure whether anything else hasbeen translated of her over So basically,
it follows a Rika Machida who isa journalist, but a journalist who I

(01:19):
suppose she's coming to a point inher life where she's not entirely sure what
she's doing where she's going. Youknow, like most of us get into
that stage of our life where youa little bit in a rat And she
starts striking up a friendship with ManakoKaiji, which is a convicted serial killer.

(01:40):
Kaiji is sitting in this woman's detentioncenter. People obsessed over her because
here is a female serial killer.Also, the nature of her crime is
in a sense, she cooks andcares for certain men, and eventually,
after transferring money to her and thingslike that, these men kind of just
die and seem to die naturally.But after three of them is found it,

(02:06):
they realize that, you know,it's more sinister than you think it
is. And she never gives anyinterviews, and they'll rica sends her a
letter asking her for her recipe forbirth palling on. I'm not saying that,
well, beef steel basically French beefstew. And they start kind of
like a weird codependency friendship. I'mnot doing you putting it that's a good

(02:30):
way putting it. I think Ithink it's more it's not really codependency,
because it's Rika who's kind of likefallen under her spell. Basically right,
Rica has her eyes really opened bythis woman, Like, because this woman,
she she is someone who you wouldnot think of as a fem fatale

(02:51):
because she is overweight, she's veryplain, she doesn't she doesn't dress up,
she doesn't do anything to know,to make herself look more beautiful.
But yet she seems to have boyfriendof the boyfriend and and and it tends
to be people who, Okay,they're a little bit older maybe, or
they're like, they're like not theusual guy that people tend to go for.

(03:15):
But these men get really obsessed withher. Right even the men that
she didn't kill, the one saidthat you know, she broke up with,
they still say good things about her. They still don't like, don't
think that she did anything really wrong. And it's fascinating to Rika because she

(03:35):
doesn't understand like she represents you know, the media, the general public who
just find this case so fascinating becausethey don't get why men get obsessed with
women like this, How did sheget so successful? What the public found

(03:58):
most alarming, even more than Kaiji'slack of beauty, was the fact that
she was not thin. Women appearedto find this aspect of the case profoundly
disturbing, while in men it elicitedan extraordinary display of hatred and vitriol.
From early childhood, every one hadhad it drummed into them that if a
woman wasn't slim, she wasn't worthbothering with. The decision not to lose

(04:23):
weight and remain plus sized was onethat demanded considerable resolve, and yet Kaiji
had given herself that permission. Ignoringother people's yardsticks. She had decided that
she was enough as a woman tobe treated well, to be adored,
to be showered with presence and affection, and to eschew that which she disliked,

(04:45):
including work and group socializing. Shewent on demanding these things as though
they were perfectly within her rights,and as a result, she had carved
out for herself an environment she foundcomfortable in which she could live apart from
the world. It was this accomplishment, more than the close to one hundred
million yen she had managed to extractfrom various men that seemed to record deserving

(05:08):
of admiration. In principle, allwomen should give themselves permission to demand good
treatment, but the world made doingso profoundly difficult. I think It's almost

(05:29):
that people are really just angry thata woman could just embrace being very feminine
right like cooking, and not beconcerned about her weight. That seemed to
be a very prevalent theme in thisbook, that women need to take care
of themselves, they need to dressnicely, they need to be slim.
She's like a Botticelli Japanese. It'sa ductress who just doesn't seem to care.

(05:57):
Yeah, can you imagine how hardit is to to be a larger
sized woman in Japan? Like whenI was in Japan last year, I
like Japanese fashions because they're a littlebit more like, they're more earthy,
and that's kind of thing that Ido like to try on. But the
thing is, you go into Japanesefashion stories and you realize one thing,

(06:18):
they do not have sizes because theyexpect all women to fit into the same
clothes. Okay, and their sizesski you really small. So if you're
anything beyond like size zero, Iguess basically the smallest size, you really
can't find clothes. So, youknow, for somebody to be larger than

(06:41):
normal, it just feels like yougo get the grain so much. But
that's her whole thing, right,She doesn't care what people think about her.
She thinks of herself as a domesticgoddess basically, and she thinks of
all these men as you know,she serves them because they make her feel
good about herself. But it almostfeels that when you're reading this book,

(07:04):
you just have to let the conversationtake you where where you feel it would
go, because it has so manythings about gender in this book. It
has so many little tiny nuances andobservations about modern life and about the things
that women do to themselves, thethings that women do to other women,

(07:25):
the things women think that they needto do for men. Kind of blew
my mind a little bit when Iwas reading it. I was like,
Wow, she managed to articulate alot of things that in a lot of
ways we kind of sweep under thecupet from modern society, right, like
the women need to have careers,the women you know, it has all
of those, and her characters kindof embodied the different facets of being a
woman in modern life. You know, Rica is one facet of it.

(07:48):
Kaiji and then Rika's best friend Rako. It's also another female character who who
who tries who was a career womanwho tries to be domesticated later and just
ends up her husband. You know, So he has all these complexities that
comes from being a woman. Ithink there's a lot to unpack here,
there really is. First of all, we guess that yes, yeah,

(08:11):
let's talk about butter the title,and there's a little bit of background to
it, so it's it's sort ofset in twenty eleven. It was a
time in Japan where I think theproduction of milk in the Japanese gary industry

(08:31):
actually went down a fair bit,and therefore butter became this kind of like
really rare commodity that had to beimportant overseas because they couldn't keep up with
the demand for it. The wholeindustry was just slowing down, and it
really leans into this whole thing aboutbutter being a really luxurious and really like

(08:56):
it's such an understated kind of kindof ingredient, but it's it's the thing
that seems to elevate almost everything ittouches. That's a very good way of
putting it. Yeah. So soyou meet Rika, right, and she
really is one of those characters ofpeople which you probably know who has focused

(09:16):
a lot on her career, whodoesn't really take care of herself, who
eat a lot of takeaway you know, who have very fleeting relationships. I
mean, she has sort of likean on and off boyfriend named Makato,
and they come, they sleep witheach other, and they just kind of
carry on your merry way. Andthis is very much an aspect of urban
life, and I think especially soin Japan, you know, where it's

(09:37):
very much a single person kind ofidea, you know, where you don't
necessarily even take meals together. Everythingis ondergo. And then suddenly her work
kind of slows down when Kaiji justbasically tells her, if you don't know
what good butter is, what isthe point. And then for like several
chapters you go into descriptions of butter, descriptions but they'll melting on rice descrips

(10:01):
it a, but they'll melting onbasta. And this book really makes you
hungry. Oh my god, Diana, I was like, Oh, I
need to see but Tekita, right, I really have to go home.
Maybe it'snassy mate Gita. I wasreading this during Flusting one and I'm just
like, I really want to seanow. The butter should be cold.

(10:24):
Remove it from the fridge just beforeSuperior quality butter should be eaten when it's
still cold and hard to truly luxuriatein its texture and aroma. It will
begin to melt almost immediately with theheat of the rice, but I want
you to eat it before it melts. Fully cool butter and warm rice first
of all, savor the difference intheir temperatures. Then the two will melt

(10:48):
alongside one another, mingle together andform a golden fountain right there inside your
mouth. Even without seeing it,you just know that it's golden. That's
the way it tastes. You'll sensethe individual grains of rice coated and butter,
and an aromatic fragrance is if therice are being fried, will ascend
to your notes. A rich,milky sweetness will spread itself across your tongue.

(11:20):
The food descriptions amazing. I tellyou, you know, it's not
something that you can just like writeoff. But then you really think about
the relationships that we have with foodnowadays, there's so much conversation around how
careful you have to be with alot of food, Like, you know,
like you have to make choices,you know, because it's going to
impact you. For the rest ofyour life, and you had to be

(11:41):
you had to be thinking about thesethings all the time. And and it's
something like you really think about itif you're so you just liberated from all
that and just don't care about whatthe long term effects of whatever you're doing
to yourself is. Just just enjoyit and just live in the moment and
you think about it. And it'sso it is liberating, and it feels

(12:03):
like there's a lot of people whocan never do that, especially women in
Japan. I think because you're socareful about what you're eating all the time,
it makes you think that how muchof our lives are governed by this
sort of like so called rules thatwe put for ourselves, and a lot
of them are probably unnecessary, butperhaps this is the way that people can

(12:24):
make sense of the stuff that they'redoing. Right, So they have to
put certain things so for instance,like delayed delay pleasure for instance. You
know, like you meet a lotof people who go like I would only
do this once I've achieved this orthis idea that I don't deserve anything nice.
I feel that it really kind ofgets down to the heart of the

(12:45):
matter of how a lot of yourdaily ramblings. I mean, you're daily
going through life. A lot ofit is fueled by a guilt, fueled
by imposter syndrome, fueled by notdeserving, not understanding, and even today
because everything is very much an onlineworld that we live in, right,
there is a lot of lack ofhuman connection in a lot of ways.

(13:07):
There's a lot of second guessing.Like Kaiji is refreshing because she just cuts
into the cuts it into the what. What's really basic is that you just
this ability to feed yourself something goodand the ability to feed other people something
good, and the weird gender politicsthat kind of like revolve around us this
simple action of nourishment. Yeah,and I feel that is why it really

(13:33):
speaks to a lot of us whowho sometimes don't even have the time to
cook for ourselves, you know,don't have the time to understand how powerful
a simple meal for somebody can be. Caring for, supporting and warming the

(13:54):
hearts of men is women's God givenrole and without fail performing it makes women
beautiful. They become goddesses, don'tyou see? You find so many hard,
spiky women these days because they lacklove towards men and are unsatisfied.
As a result, you have tounderstand that women can never hope to rival
men's power. That's nothing to beashamed of when you acknowledge the differences between

(14:20):
the sexes. When you accept menfor how they are and work to support
and please them, a future offreedom and abundance awaits you. Everyone is
suffering because they're trying to rail againstthe natural order of things. As she
spoke, Kaiji's face was contorted bya violent anger and frustration at odds with
the content of what she was saying. Women's obsession with work and independence and

(14:43):
so on is the source of theirdissatisfaction. When women surpass men, their
chance for romance slips away from them. Men and women alike need to understand
that they can't find happiness without eachother. If you scrimp on butter,
your food will taste inferior. Andif you scrimp on femininity and a wish
to serve your partner, then yourrelationships will grow impoverished. Why can't you

(15:05):
fathom that even just just when youknow Rica is like she first goes to
see you know, Kajimana, andand that's the nickname that you know that
they give to this to this personKaji and they call Kajimana as well.

(15:28):
So she she kind of like shetells her to just go and learn a
very very simple basically like you weresaying that the buttered buttered rice with soy
sauce. She's never even done asimple, simple thing like that for herself.
She's never cooked a meal like thatfor herself, maybe just instant noodles.
But she doesn't even have a ricecookercy she had to go buy one

(15:50):
and she had just and then shesuddenly realizes, like, you know,
this is something I've missed out onso much because I thought that cooking was
so difficult, so foreign, likeit's so unnecessary. Basically, it kind
of makes a house at home,right, because I remember reading that part
where she starts smelling the rice cookingfrom a rice cooker and then she suddenly

(16:12):
felt that her house wasn't so coldanymore. And then you know, and
of course later, honest you readthe book, you also find out the
real kind of like emotional complexities thatRica has with cooking because she also has
a trauma from her past you knownobody, and also that she has this

(16:33):
kind of like complex friendship with thisfriend Rico as well, right, who
is a fantastic cook who is tryingto get pregnant, and and you know,
in the idea of trying to havecontrol over the small world that she
inhabits as well, you know.And and so it also kind of like
as Japanese books tend to do alot of it is not necessarily very plot

(16:53):
driven. It's very character driven.So as as kind of like Rica meanders
through all this task that Kaiji likeset her on. So she basically said,
Rica, in order to gain hertrust, Rica has to do a
series of foody related tasks because ina way, Kaiji is trying to live
vicariously through Rica. So the ideathat you do this, you cook this

(17:18):
butter cake, you do this,you have sex, and then you go
out and eat this noodle or aspecific time, because it's not just the
food, it's also the context ofwhen the food is eaten. And it
feels like the more that she doesit, the more she starts to understand
Kaiji sort of like psyche. Sobeing a she's like a method journalist.
I was like really going, likethis is like method journalism, right,

(17:41):
when you try to imbue the personalityof the person you want to interview in
order to write an article, andthen she just gets locks into this world
because it was in such a hedonisticworld, isn't it, you know,
completely, Like she goes into herchildhood, you know, she goes and
interviews people that she spoke to asa child. It really it hit home

(18:02):
to me that this whole relationship thatpeople have with food. I think it
was interesting that she even went onthe journey that Cadji had had to become
this cook, right, she evenwent on the cooking course. As she
went on, she just tried tounderstand her from that perspective and like,

(18:22):
is this a bit much? Butat the same time, you know,
like you realize that we are aproduct of the experiences that we've had in
life, and if we don't tryand process that, maybe we don't realize
the reason that we ended up wherewe are. I think it's interesting to
think of that as not your ownjourney, but to try and go in

(18:45):
somebody else's journey to see what madethem who they are. But I don't
know, I mean, like Ifelt like in places the novel was reaching
a bit much and it goes weird, right, it goes pretty weird in
places. Yeah, if you wantto talk about the dairy cow thing,
I don't know. I feel ina way you need to kind of read

(19:08):
this book to sort of understand it. And yes, it is a hefty
book. If we want to justfor a short while go into why you
should read this book, it's becauseagain it has all these quite amazing descriptions
of food. It also really goesinto the idea of a cult of personality,
right, how people get really obsessedover syraculous and how and how mean

(19:33):
people are, you know, andhow tries to go and understand as you,
as Rika tries to understand Kaiji,you also start to understand how somebody
like her exists in this world becauseyou go into her childhood, you go
into her issues, and you understanda little bit about sort of like this

(19:53):
urban loneliness that a lot of Japanesebook have. It's so hard sometimes to
just find a safe space. Howfriends, how to be a good friend.
I mean, it has all thisstuff. So I feel that you
might have to plow through this booka little bit because sometimes it is probably
unnecessarily long in some places, buteventually it gets there. In many places,

(20:19):
it's very poetic. I really like, you know, like the way
that she describes things. And it'snot even just the food, although that's
the key, right, the wayshe describes food. It's just just think
of you know, the people thatyou follow, like you food bloggers,
basically food boat bloggers. They knowwhat they're doing with describing food and stuff

(20:41):
like that. So she does thatjust as well, and it really gives
you a really you want to goout and cook everything that she describes.
Oh my god, I want totry it? Right? Have you to
do a cream club thing? Butyou just have to find a recipe for
it. You know that a pastawith them that she makes, I really
wanted to make that pasta with thewith the role, with the role,

(21:02):
you know, the fish role,right. I Mean, it's just so
many things. Just a basic cakethat she talks about, you know,
like she's saying that this this isthis is like a very basic cake.
But you know, like you justdo it and it's just it just takes
the best elements and you put themtogether for a very simple yet very satisfying

(21:25):
result. And you think about it. That isn't that just basically the beauty
of food? Where you just like, with very little knowledge and experience and
effort, you can actually put togethersomething that is way beyond you know,
like just having something to fill yourstomach. The way that she talks about
just you know, the families andthe and the and the relationships that people

(21:51):
have. There's just a lot goingon in this book, and I think
that is the main thing that mighthope. Yeah, that that makes it
hard to read. It's pretty inthat sense, although it's not like linguistically,
it's not challenging, it's not it'snot difficult to to it's you don't
kind of feel like you don't likewhat's going on. Although some people have

(22:15):
said they don't like the characters becauseshe doesn't write characters that are straightforward.
You know, her characters are verymuch they're great characters. Yeah, I
mean, I think just being inRica's slightly neurotic brain as well. And
this book really like somewhere in themiddle of this book, suddenly it shifts

(22:38):
perception to another character. I'm like, whoa so bold? You know,
Like, I mean, like thisbook just really like I just feel like
you should now know the insights ofthis other character. And suddenly you actually
absolutely change point of view, becauseI think I read somewhere that you wrote
that she was thinking of doing somethinglike Silence of the Lambs, right where
you have this very clear eye,I'm the person being interviewed and changed fundamentally

(23:03):
by the serial killer. But it'snot as simple as that, you know.
She really takes you into Rica's mine, and she's a very prickly protagonist.
She's not a very likable protagonist,you know. And I think having
a journalist as a vehicle as wellis interesting because it means that she has

(23:23):
a way for somebody to articulate certainthings to you. So the taste of
food is articulated like a journalist wouldarticulate it, you know, So you
get all these untous descriptions of ambrosiolike food and stuff like that, because
at the end of the day,Rica is a journalist and she's trying to
make sense of the article that she'sgoing to write. So it also goes

(23:45):
into the kind of like the journalist'skind of mind, and it's a very
uneasy mind to be in, youknow. And the more that you start
feeling sympathy for Kaiji as well,the way that Rica does also makes you
feel a bit uneasy, right,because this is a woman that in a
lot of ways almost like modern societywants you to reject. Yeah, it's
such an interesting it's such an interestingkind of like window into into urban life.

(24:10):
I think, into like thee I'mnot just a Japanese psyche, but
a psyche of women who who haveto find support systems, who who takes
great satisfaction in being I don't knowwhether it's seducing men or being that safe
space for men, but where's yoursafe space? Right in that way?
Right? And then I talk alittle bit about this this sort of like

(24:33):
weird weaponized incompetence about about men.I mean you wrote something really good on
that, you know, like ohyeah, yeah, despite why, I
mean, not taking care of yourselfproperly is a form of violence. That's
just one thing that that was alsothe other theme in the book, you
know, like if you don't takecare of yourself, you are being violent
towards your own self. My motiveI was the same as yours. One

(25:02):
day out of the blue, theyjust became too much the faces of people
who thought nothing of making endless demands, of being constantly given things. The
way they sat at the tables,simply waiting to be served, not lifting
a finger, their certainty that theywould be taken care of without even having
to try. I began, inan instant to hate them. I couldn't

(25:27):
be bothered to buy seasonal ingredients,prepare them, cook, choose the plate,
serve up the food, then clearaway the dishes and wash up.
For people like that, when Istopped being in touch, when I stopped
doing the housework and the cooking,they panicked. Some of them became hyper
suspicious, and their behavior took ona stockerish air. Some of them,

(25:49):
after returning to life alone, beganneglecting themselves and suffered physically as a result,
like babies, all of them whosemother had ceased looking after them.
It's odd, isn't it. OnceI had found their incompetence, their reliance
on me adorable. I believed upuntil that point that I liked pleasing them.

(26:11):
Yet I suddenly saw that it wasalways just me working away frenziedly all
alone. Cooking is enjoyable, butthe moment it becomes a duty, it
grows boring. The same is trueof sex and fashion and beauty. When
you're forced to do something, itbecomes a chore and the pleasure disappears.

(26:41):
There's this thread in the novel whereshe talks about this friend of hers,
sort of a mentor of hers,and how he was divorced and he doesn't
really talk to his daughter anymore,his teenage daughter. So Rica, you
know, actually goes to his houseto bake a cake, like as you

(27:03):
do. Basically, I don't knowwhy she goes to his empty apartment he
doesn't even live in. He livesin a different place. It's a perfectly
lovely, nice house that he doesn'tlive in, and he lives somewhere else
and he never uses it, andhe doesn't he doesn't cook, he doesn't
do anything. He knows how to, but he doesn't do it. And
then Riquel's like she just she hadthis realization that not taking care of yourself

(27:27):
properly is a form of violence,and it's such an interesting concept. I
thought that I really had to highlightit because it's like you kind of like
if you don't if you if youneglect yourself and you don't want to do
anything for yourself, it's kind oflike being a victim. It's the kind
of thing that you do so thatother people will notice how much you're suffering.

(27:52):
You know, a very extreme formof passive aggressiveness, isn't it?
It is? It is, AndI think I think that's what men do
a lot. So men tend tobe reliant on women to do other things.
So there was this thing that whereRicae was thought about her mother,
and after Rica's parents divorced, andthen people will come to her mother and
say, oh, you know,you know, you know, he's so

(28:15):
sad, he's so lonely, noone feeds him. And Ricae's like,
nobody thought that about my mother.Nobody said to her that she had to
be looked after, you know,like no one came to her to no
one told her dad about how sadshe was and everything, because women just
get on with it. They justlook after themselves in their family. They
don't like wallow in, you know, like, no one's looking after me,

(28:40):
what's going to happen to me?Nothing? But he said that also
subversively a way of punishing somebody wholeaves you, right, So like I
feel like that there's just a fewinstances of men in this book where it's
punishment, right you you say that, okay, you leave me, you
have the audacity to leave me rightand look look at me now, I

(29:02):
am this shell of my former self. I you know, I'm sort of
like, I'm not looking after myself. I look like shit. I it's
because you left me. See whatyou have made me? Women, Yeah,
it is like straight male passive aggressiveness. I felt this book really kind
of got into the heart of that. It's just a female male thing perhaps.

(29:23):
I mean, I don't like totalk about gender, but in a
way, you know, like youend up looking after the house, you
end up cooking the meals, youend up taking care of the kids,
and men just go out and work, especially in quite a conservative society,
right and Japan to a certain extentis to pretty conservative in that sense.
Men go and bring in the bacon, women cook it, look after the
house. But the moment the marriagedoesn't work out and the woman leaves or

(29:48):
the man leaves or the divorce happens, suddenly men just seem incapable of taking
care of themselves. Like there areabsolute adults who clearly would have been perfectly
fine clothing and feeding themselves before theygot married, you know, unless they
went from being taken care of bytheir mom into taking care of by a
wife, you know, basically that'show they go I had to look up

(30:15):
themselves. I feel like when Iread it sometimes I'm like, oh,
you know, it really sort oflike gets into the heart of that of
this sort of like gender gender politicsand gender postage situations that you put yourself
in in order to tell women thatthis is what you've done to me.
I mean, this book is somethingelse, man, especially the way that

(30:37):
like, you know, you touchedon how Asako Uzuki actually did say that
she wanted to write like a reversesilence of the lambs, so it is
about you like this personality, right, So basically for her, she kind
of like reverses. She takes thismen's inability to see their own this thing,

(31:03):
and she she kind of turns itback. She becomes this this themetric
goddess to them, so she likeserves them and worships them, and then
they become obsessed with her. So, like is really interesting line in the
in the story that it says wherewhere Kaji actually says the quickest way for
a modern Japanese woman to gain thelove of a man is to become corpse

(31:26):
like so so like it's you know, like basically her idea is that women,
you know, you you have tosubmit yourself completely to men in that
way and just give them everything thatthey want. And and it's true.

(31:47):
It's like it's like you kind oflike you have to die. You know,
you don't have to You can't havea personality anymore. And you can't
have your own desire or an ambition, you kind of your ambitions, you
can't have your own life. Basically, you have to die in order to
submit yourself completely to what they wantyou to be. I become a zombiella

(32:08):
living dead. It's kind of bizarre, but at the same time, it's
kind of really true. Don't giveany pushback, right, don't have your
own I mean, don't make lifehard, honey than it is for men.
And this book is littered with theselittle, tiny insightful things, you

(32:29):
know, like the insights that thisserial killer has. And and you know
it's up to you to decide atthe end of the of the book,
right, whether she is a killeror not. I mean that is also
the question that Rica has to wrestlewith, you know, because people are
very quick. Because like the menthat died, one of them died on
a train track. One of themdied overdosing or sleeping pills. They are

(32:51):
all seem to be accidental deaths,right and clearly somebody could give him her,
you know, helping hand towards dying. But whether or not that is
Kaiji is up for you to decide. What does a killer mean? In
this book? I also think it'sit's also a question, and she also
questioned makes you a question who's responsiblefor people's actions? In many ways,

(33:14):
she doesn't feel responsible for who sheis. She blames her mother, she
says, her mother, you know, like she she actually worshiped her father
who left their family, like becauseshe that she thought that it was her
mother's fault for going out to workand not baking cakes for every day basically,

(33:36):
you know, like for not makingthe home warm, as if the
man is never responsible for making ahome warm, as if a man is
never responsible for trying to keep afamily together. It's only the mother's fault.
So she kind of like she wentagainst everything about to do with women.
She as an adult, she hateswomen. She doesn't want to spend

(33:58):
time with other women, right,she except, you know, like women
friendships are like ploying, like allnonsense where they just meet up in bathrooms
and talk bad about their husbands,that kind of thing. She only really
values men's opinions of her. Soit's kind of like a really interesting take
on responsibility, right, Basically,who is responsible for your life? How

(34:23):
your life turns out? And thatties in very much of what you were
saying before, but weaponizing competence becausea lot of men feel, like,
you know, like they are theydon't have a lot of choices, they
don't have any say in what happenswhen they are the ones who decide most
things in life. You know.There you're the one who has to propose
to a woman. Basically, you'rethe one who has to choose who your

(34:45):
wife is going to be. Youalways make the decisions basically in the house,
whereas women are the ones who haveto stay at home. They have
to be subservient, They have tolike you know, they just just just
serve their husbands and do whatever theythey need to give them the children they
need. You have to get thema household so that they're successful. Yeah,

(35:06):
yeah, I mean the measure ofsuccess as well, for you as
a woman and for you as aman is very different, right, it's
very conditioned, very differently. Butit is really amazing, you know that
when I was reading this book,and I remember various conversations I have with
my straight male friends, right,because this is very much straight man,

(35:27):
straight woman kind of story. Thisis very much a very traditional conservative view
on what society has given these roles, right, And it's amazing that the
amount of conversations I've had with someof my straight male friends, Like they
always say things like I just wanta woman to take care of me when
we talk about marriage as well,when when like some of my male friends,

(35:49):
I mean, like a lot ofthem are married now, but when
they were looking for a wife.You know, the whole idea that these
double standards, right, Like Iwant to have a lot of fun,
want to sleep around, but thewomen I sleep around with are not the
women I want to get married to, because I, at the end of
the day want to get married tothe mother or my children. I hear
this a lot, and a lotof the times when I call them out

(36:12):
on it, right, I golike, hey, double standards are and
most of the I'm quite aware thatthis is a very it's a double standard,
but they want what they want whichis at the end of the day
they be like, Oh, thisis a lot of fun, but she's
not going to take care of mefor me. The point there is it's
not just that they do see thatthere is a double standard. It's just
that that is the norm, thatis what they can expect to get out

(36:36):
of life, because that's what theyalways like they see from around them.
Everybody gets this, even though it'sa double standard, but that's what is
available. So you know, whywould I want to want that to change?
And I also feel it is acertain degree of kind of like survival
as well in the modern world thatthey know that in order to have a

(36:57):
better life, they actually need tofind this kind of women, you know,
and those who have had breakups ordivorces. I'm not saying that.
I mean some of the examples inthese books. In this book is quite
extreme. Some of the men inthis book, some of them are suicidal
and things like that, right,But I have actually seen like people that
I know who have divorced and reallyliterally right, just the inability to just

(37:20):
move on with their life, youknow, like they just can't the void
that a womanly lives, like likethe wife lives when she suddenly wakes up
one money and go like, whatam I doing ironing? It sucks?
You know, I want to goclimb Clemandaro, you know. And and
and suddenly realizing that, oh mygod, like how dependent they have actually

(37:43):
become and this and it's a horriblerealization for a lot of them, you
know, Like and then you suddenlyhave if you divorce it in your forties,
right, you suddenly have this sortof like population of divorced men who
are kind of very lonely and unableto actually just look after themselves really well,
you know, I mean, Imean most of them get on with

(38:04):
it, right, They get onwith it, or they find another woman.
And this happens a lot with menwhose wife dies as well. Eventually
they get married quite fast. AndI think this book kind of like bails
down a little bit of this sortof like dependency that you have on your
life partner and the weaponized incompetence thatsubconsciously happens sometimes when you relinquish a lot

(38:28):
of control over what makes you functionalin life to another person. And the
idea that the power that women holdis sometimes so it's so powerful, right,
you get you know what I meanlike in that sense, but not
realizing that you have this power ina way and also resenting the fact that
you are given all this responsibility toyou. You know. It just really

(38:52):
kind of it is a fantastic bookfor you to read and have a discussion
about gender. What is actually asuccessful life for a woman because you know,
like a lot of women are soldthe story that you're basically only trying
to get a career to be asplaceholder until you actually get a fulfilling life

(39:14):
as a mother, as a wifeand mother. Right, So this is
the story that a lot of womenare always sold like marriage is the goal
in life, to find that greathusband, you know, like and have
a successful marriage. I just wantto mental always you always think like that,
you know, like I'm going tobe a lady of leisure. You

(39:36):
be able to dress well all thetime and go out and and you know,
go to go go to cree classesand just and just always enjoy like
making nice food for my family.But that's the life that Rico lives.
And you can see like that there'sthere's holes in that story, right,
you know, So, so whatis it that actually makes a woman successful

(39:59):
in life? Like what is itthat women want basically, you know that
is it Rica's life where she is, you know, getting to a place
where she is going to be quitea force in her in her company.
A lot of people respect her forwhat she's She's the idea she's come up
with, and a lot of peoplecome up and say to her, you
know, like, you know,you could go really far. So is

(40:20):
she successful or is somebody like Racosuccessful because she she managed to come out
of the rat race, she managedto to be able to become a lady
of leisure? Or are you successfulbasically when you can become somebody like a
pop strategy? Like yeah, yeah, there you even have ye like yeah,

(40:43):
yeah that you're just a cat woman? Yeas. No guilt. The
great thing about our serracular character isthat it's just the absolute lack of guilt.
Right. She understood very early onwhere she wants to be in society.
She pursued it no guilt. Soin a way it just kind of
flows people that a woman could existwithout guilt And how can you live a

(41:07):
love and somebody who is so openlyembraces her desires, which is yes,
so anti like it's so anti Asian, right, to be just able to
like just have everything you want.But even that validation isn't that like the
push and pull within desires and validation, Right, do you want to pursue

(41:28):
whats you see as your desires ordo you want validation from your peers,
validation from the fact that you're asuccessful woman in every aspect. It just
sounds so exhausting. And they evengo, I mean, you were talking
about cooking classes, right, Theyeven go into the idea of this a
woman who has successfully married, notlike Rayco in a sense where she's starting

(41:49):
to think about what she has givenup in order to and the fact that
she cannot have children, and thatmade her even more feel like a failure,
right, because I've given up allthis and I can't even have a
kid. You meet a bunch ofwomen that actually go for cookery classes,
and how other women judge them,Oh, yalla lady or leisure right,
ladies who lunch rich married, richhusband can spend entire day sitting in a

(42:10):
cooking class, cooking like mixing asaba. And then and actually going into
that psyche about the fact that thisis for these women a safe space for
them. It's not the cooking,right. It is. Actually it's almost
the it's the support system. Thereis this trope even in Malaysian culture about

(42:34):
the Dutin lifestyle, right, AndI thought that was actually really quite interesting
because because you know this, thiswhole idea of the cooking club is very
upper class women, women who haveenough money and enough leisure to just just
cooking and learning about cooking just forthemselves. They're not really even doing anything.
But they're not going to be openingrestaurants or anything like that, you

(42:57):
know, nothing, nothing that requireslabor right there to enjoy the food basically,
if they're just doing it as ahobby. You know, I think
I think it's it's the whole ideaof the lady of leisure there. They
want to be a lady of leisure, but at the same time they just
hate on them all over time.You know. It's the same people think

(43:17):
that ladies with book clubs. Right, it's like, wow, you've got
time to read. We all noticeas bonets, right, Oh, you've
got time to see it. Youknow, beverages talk about books and ideas
were so laxurious, right. Soit's also like the find that people just
judge on other people are, youknow, like at an the end of

(43:37):
the data grass is always greener,you know, while you don't realize that,
half the time, these people arealso trying to figure out what their
identity is now, right Like suddenlythey have what they want and now they
have to figure out what to do. Yea, even though this book was

(44:08):
written or more than ten years ago, it's still very much it's quite relevant.
It's still very relevant, you know, because it's a lot of and
food as the vehicle. I mean, what is there not to like?
You know, like you read itand you just want to be part of
this cooking club. You want toyou know, also come home to the

(44:29):
smell of rice cooking right and eatvery good butter. And I could not
agree more. I feel, atthe end of the day, if you're
going to eat something that is luxuriousand fattic, you buy the best that
your money can buy. Buy thegood butter, don't buy the margarine.
Everybody, I really felt very,very like I felt it in my bones

(44:52):
about what you were just saying justnow about coming home and smelling you know,
buttered rice, right, that issuch a luxury. But it's just
are we the person who cooks itfor ourselves or is it that we expect
somebody else to be doing for us, Because there is a big line in
the story about how Cauji is verybitter about her mother not being that kind

(45:15):
of person, like who would bepreparing home, home cooked meals for them
when they comes from when they whenthey came home from school and stuff like
that. So for her having tocook food for herself, she doesn't see
it as empowering, which is it'skind of like very very narrow minded of
her, like she wanted somebody elseto do it for her, but she

(45:37):
now realizes how much power you havebeing that person to cook it for somebody
else. Yeah, you know,and I think I think the whole idea
of like the way that she sheblames her mother when she is become she
has become somebody who is, youknow, so free she has, she's
so much liberation, she has somuch ability to be independent. But yet

(46:01):
she resents her mother for her independence, you know, because her mother had
a career outside the home, andtherefore she thinks that that's the reason why
her father felt unloved. And yeah, and that's a very interesting thing because
it really shows how impossible it isto be a woman, you know,

(46:22):
it really shows how impossible it is. And and women and women like her,
right and and and again we're havingthis conversation. We're talking a little
bit about the fact that women generallywill have women friends right to to sort
of like ease, a way totalk about deep stuff. And in a
way, a lot of men don'thave this. And this is why you

(46:44):
find a lot of very lonely menwho say are divorced or or who are
just yeah. And you find thatsometimes when when they can have a female,
a female friendship that is not sexualin nature, they really open up
to them, you know, becausethey can't do it amongst themselves, right,
particularly among straight men, you know. But then you read a character

(47:06):
like Kaiji who is unable to actuallyform female friendships because of the way that
she has She has kind of pigeonholeherself into this one aspect, you know,
like, and she's also a veryintense character, right, and not
having that and how lonely that is, how lonely it is for a woman
not to have to be able toconnect with other women. And this is

(47:30):
where you have this weird friendship,this kind of like this guy like codependency
friendship between her and Rika as well, you know, because it's probably the
first time that she's really open upto another woman. Right. But it's
games, right, It's always likea power struggle, right, because it's
like who has more power. Foryou to have an honest friendship in a

(47:51):
way, you have to kind oftrust each other and almost submit to the
fact that you can be vulnerable withthat person, right, And Kaiji just
has this armor, right, shejust doesn't let it down until she she
is in prison, and then shejust needs that contact, right, she
she has no freedom to do whatshe usually does. On one hand,

(48:13):
Rica first is the one that's beggingfor this kind of like I want to
meet you. And then eventually it'sher that gets very that she wants Rica
to come and see her. Sheis begging her to meet up with her.
And it's just like it's good thisgood books. Good book, guys.
There's there's a lot going on here. I think I think there's there's
one small thread that I thought wasactually quite interesting as well. Really,

(48:37):
what you're saying before about how thisbook focuses so much on the heterosexual relationships,
did you pick up on the factthat you know, like Rica and
Rico because they were there were therewere school there were schoolmates, right,
And there's this idea that Rica,when she was in school, she was

(48:58):
a prince. Yeah, So basicallyI guess the idea. Yeah, the
idea was that, you know,like she was the girl that all the
other girls desired crushed on. Yeah, and that plays off against what Cauji
was saying, like she's the princessrole and Caugi she's she's always talking in
a very artificially high pitched kind ofvoice, and her appearance as well,

(49:23):
she's like whenever we can describe her, she's like she has this big,
round, grape like eyes and stufflike that, like like you know,
like anime kind of Yeah, likethere's a persona that people put on and
and and it really it's a fascinatingthing to think about how like we're always

(49:44):
presenting ourselves in different ways. There'salso a lot of interesting things to talk
about with gender politics in this book, because it's not just about the way
that men behavior affects women and women'sbehavior affects men, but also the way
that other women's behavior affects other women. The reason why I think that you

(50:07):
know, like Manako Kaji doesn't doesn'twear makeup, she doesn't dress up.
Is because when you generally, whenyou dress like that, you're doing it
for the benefit of other women.When we dress up, don't We don't
want men to notice us. Weas much as we want other women to
respect us or to see us.In certain ways, we dress to fit

(50:28):
in to show that we are whereare certain people in society when kast are
gaining weight from eating everything, likethe way that people would talk about her,
the way that it's not there wasn'tthe men who would say things,
and even her boyfriend didn't didn't seemto like worry about it. It's just

(50:49):
that other women were thinking these thingsabout how let yourself go? And I'm
like, oh my god, andheavy as she was fifty nine kilos.
Everyone that was heavy man. Youknow in Japan, what what she must
have been borderline and norexic before shestarted eating all that butter, you know,

(51:09):
and the fact that she has filledup and suddenly she's no longer the
sprint, right, because you're nolonger hetrogynous. But also, yeah,
I mean when you bring that up, sometimes there's a free gen there of
like a romantic friendships right between thewomen, and you even wonder whether there's
a bit of those kind of likeyou know, homosexual kind of like feelings
between The jealousy is very much almostlike a lover's jealousy. It's not like

(51:32):
if they've slept with each other orwhatever, right, but even Kaiji had
that, she had almost like alover's jealousy when when Rica's attention is elsewhere,
you know. And it's interesting becausein a way it makes Rica a
little bit of an unreliable narrator becauseshe has all these opinions about herself,
but you don't really realize what peoplethink of her and how people are dependent

(51:53):
on her for certain things because shedoesn't know that she is able to probably
have friendships if men which is notnecessarily sexual in nature, and women don't
understand that other women don't understand howcan you have a friendship with men that
not that eventually, like you know, doesn't end up in bed or something.

(52:13):
You know. I've spoken a bitabout it earlier, like why somebody
should read this book, but mepersonally, it kind of articulated a lot
of things that occasionally wolfed around inmy head. The idea of gender even,
you know, like why are peopleassized certain roles. It really represents
a lot of female stereotypes, likeyou know, the career woman. It

(52:37):
goes into the women who gather acareer for her home and the feelings that
come from it, the woman whodecides to be a homemaker. From the
very beginning, it goes into allthese different areas of female life. Yeah,
as Diana says, it also goesto weird places, you know,
like like the dairy farm or theidea that you know, at the end

(52:59):
of the day, milk comes fromblood, you know, even her having
that fall and the scaps on herknee, and the book kind of goes
there. It doesn't shy away fromshowing characters in lights that you almost feel
that these are very intimate things thatpeople don't want other people to know about
you. And it goes there,so you might bring it to some uncomfortable

(53:23):
places, and that's always a goodthing about a book. It's a great
book to discuss. I really actuallythought that there is so much packed in,
Like we haven't even gone into food, the culture and the whole idea
that you know, like you youcan actually hype up food, and and
also the comparison between Japanese and Frenchfood, and how you take a lot

(53:45):
of the ideas about French food andit's just because you call it boign and
not like be stew. It's suddenlyso elevated just because it's French. Yeah,
I mean, the people's still havethat notion about French food, though
I wonder because the branding is sostrong, right, even the taste of

(54:06):
very very traditional French food feels verycloying these days, you know, because
like my nephew went to Corduonblo andyes he cooks beautifully now, but when
I eat it, it feels outdated, you know, like the flavor feels
outdated because no, no, andbecause nowadays people do like like new cuisine
right where they take the traditions ofFrench cooking, which is a very good

(54:29):
base level and making your own.And I think there's also that part of
the book that I quite like abouthow Rika starts discovering the kind of cook
that she is or the kind ofeater that she is and eating alone as
opposed to cooking for people, andthe whole kind of emotional connection that you
get from that from not necessarily usingit as a weapon, like how Kaiji

(54:49):
does, you know, But atthe end of the day, making food
for somebody who is in a badplace is a simple act of love,
really, and it's simple act ofcompassion. Almost the book goes into those
areas as well, which I thinkis quite lovely, you know, like
it gives you a bit of hope, like even a serial killer, and
make you realize what matters to you. And I mean, it's interesting to

(55:13):
think about about the power of likethis, just because everybody is thinking in
certain ways and then somebody else throwsyou a curve ball bye bye bye by
thinking of things differently, like thatmakes you really realize that you're buying in
into certain stories that don't actually representwhat you really believe when you think about

(55:35):
it. Like, you know,like just just the way that foody food
blogs right, foody culture right tellsyou to really worship French food when you
really think about it. There's somuch to enjoy a Japanese food itself.
And like you were saying, ifyou just enjoy food and cook it the
way you want to cook it,rather than get tied into into thinking this
is the right way of doing thisdish, and nothing else you know,

(55:59):
should ever to try to come closeto it. There's gatekeeping in foody culture.
You can make. You can takea simple dish and make it so
complicated and write like five different booksabout just how to get one thing right,
you know, like I've read,because I've gotten into sour dough recently,
I've seen so much stuff about justhow how to do a starter.

(56:22):
At the end of the day.It just made it so complicated. Just
don't I still want to eat yourbuggets, Dine. I don't know why
you haven't given me a buget yet. You know, Diana got into get
Me, which is gonna make melike there's some people who tell you there's
nothing to it, just do itand it's and you'll come up perfectly,
And of course it doesn't. Andthen you try and look at other stuff

(56:45):
and people like, oh, thereason why you didn't do it is because
you didn't check the you know,like you don't have French flower, and
French flower is this is this isthis this, and then the city in
the air and the and the pHand and you know, you know,
like whether or not you're breathing whileyou're making it, and it's so complex.
Yeah, but also like you know, when you think about meals that

(57:06):
you really enjoyed through your life,right, yes, you've had some great
meals. I had some great mealsin restaurants, but I think some of
my more memorable meals have been justcooked by people, right, normal people.
And this goes back into the intentionbehind the cooking, which is always
like you know, me working asa food journalist for a long time and
having to get recipes, and youalways find that there's a common idea.

(57:30):
I mean, I'm not sure whetherthis is within the Chinese community, but
in the Malay community anyway, there'sa common idea that is the nead,
right, it's the intention behind thecooking. If your intention is to feed
a person something good, nine timesout of ten, it will work out
and the person eating it will feelwill feel good about it. Because if

(57:52):
a lot of cooking, especially inmodern cooking, is about following recipes slavishly
or showing off and stuff like that, nine times out of ten, it
will not really be a satisfying mealbecause the intention behind it is very different.
Is to show off, or isto or is to make money,
you know. So this is whysometimes you go to certain restaurants and you
feel, oh, that's very class. You feel that it's very there's a

(58:13):
lot of sincerity behind the food.And as a home cook as well,
like you and I both cook,and I think through different periods of our
lives we have followed recipes, butwe've also figured out the kind of cook
that we are. I think someof the best stuff you have cooked I've
always been for. I think becauseyour intention is to narish and to feed
somebody, and that's sincere right,So I think that's also that behind the

(58:37):
whole the whole idea of cooking andwhy people feel certain ways after eating certain
foods and cook by different people.I think, Yeah, I think it's
really interesting to talk about that andthe fact that you know, like you,
you make it someone's job to feedsomebody else, like like a a
mother is supposed to be like thisnurturer and this like the person who provides

(59:00):
nourishing, really good food. Butyou know, like it becomes a job
for them, like you make ita pressure that they have to get it
right. They have to make itso beautiful that it has to look it
has to be so healthy, ithas to be so bento boxes. Oh
my god, Japanese mothers make rightand oh you've got to put your Garrett

(59:21):
looks like a teddybare, you know, like all this, it's also how
they express creativity, right, andif this and I like those. I
like the fact that some people say, Okay, if I'm going to be
doing this, I'm going to makeit my own, you know. But
it gets competitive. It gets competitivebecause in Japanese housewives, right, they
have to they have to be likeeveryone's one upping each other with their bentle

(59:42):
boxes, and it becomes ridiculous atthat stage. So I think there's so
much to talk about with this book. It's just it's a fascinating look into
food and gender and society and justour relationship with each other and just it's
just using food to connect with eachother. I think that is It's such

(01:00:04):
a such an important thing to talkabout. Hmm yeah. Yeah. And
I think we should revive eating nastybutter and Chase I ever go away right?
Comfort food, right, I meanlike I eat it as a child
and I don't eat it enough asan adult. It's a kind of food
where you just cannot count your caloriesbecause it has to be your soft white

(01:00:27):
rice, which you know is fullof sugar and cups. It has to
be the good butter, lots offat. You know, it has to
be the good soy sauce because evennowadays people say that it can eat to
my soy sauce. It's almost likea symbol of things that people deny themselves.
What makes life worth living. Guys, nasty but the keycha or just

(01:00:50):
butter and everything that's just good.But don't skim under butter, everybody,
don't skimp on it. I understandif you're doing a business that you have
to make great a year and youhave to do like with margarine or whatever.
I have nothing against madrine. Madridemakes the best carry puffs there is.
There's a time and place to usemadrine. But on your rise,
try and buy button. If you'renot convinced by us, read the book.

(01:01:14):
It will convince you. All Right, as usual, you've been listening
to me Haney Ahmad and my partnerin reading, Diana Young. This show
has been produced by Stephanie, ourwonderful producer who's been very silent. She's
like been listening to us going onand on about this. Uh, and
you can always reach us on allour social media platforms at TBNT books on

(01:01:37):
Instagram, which where we are usuallyare two book net stalking on Facebook,
tb ad pod on x uh,and we have a TikTok that doesn't do
anything and can email us a booknet stalking at gmail dot com. The
TikTok is just decoration. Really,do you have a quote? Do you
put a quote down somewhere? No? I did not put a quote down.

(01:02:00):
I mean, you've already had somereally great quotes about, you know,
not scrimping on butter. Although Ihave to say that when I was
eating as a young girl hot rice, I'm pretty sure I probably have eaten
marjarine on rice with kitchen and that'salso pretty tasty. But yes, Butter,
thanks for listening everyone, Boy