AFC North Preview - The Buffalo Bills vs The Most CHAOTIC Division in the NFL | UR - Under Review

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:14):
Previous play, we'll go under review.

Speaker 2 (00:43):
What's going on, everybody, And thank you so much for
tuning into this week's episode of Under Review. My name
is Joe DeRosa and you could find me on bous Guy,
under Review, c one dot Besky dot Social. One day,
I'll get through the intro without having to look down
at the tag, but unfortunately it's very long and I
have not remembered it yet. So I am very excited
to be back. I was off last week, but this

(01:05):
week we are returning with some more off season content
for you. And now that we're past Mini camp and
in that little break period before we get to training camp,
I figured it would be fun to get back into
the divisional previews. A few weeks ago, I brought on
Travis D. Holmes from Big Cat Country to preview the
AFC South. And now we're going to flip directions and
we're going to talk about the Lawless Wasteland, the ever

(01:27):
opened Pandora's Box that is the AFC North. And as
you know, for these episodes, I am bringing on a
representative of each division, and in this case, I am
bringing on someone who is covering the Cincinnati Bengals a
first time guest of the show, someone who I have
followed for a while. I very much value their opinion
and their insight, and they do awesome work, and I'm

(01:48):
very excited to speak with them tonight. And that is
mister Max Soscano. Max, Welcome to the show. I'm very
happy to have you here. How are you doing on
what is this Thursday evening, even though people are probably
seeing this on Friday.

Speaker 1 (02:00):
Oh yeah, No, I'm doing well. I had a pretty
good day today. I haven't really thought about the Bengals
at all in the last couple of days, like days
which has been actually quite nice. I really kind of
tune I'm really trying to tune as much of the
stuff out beyond a need to know basis until camp starts,
just because you know, there's no reason to be sitting

(02:23):
outside in the nice weather thinking about Shamar Stewart's contract
situation if I don't need to. So. I'm doing all right, though,
doing all right.

Speaker 2 (02:32):
No, I'm glad to hear you doing all right. I
know in bengal Land it has not been a pleasant
offseason and I do not mean to, you know, I
don't bring you on here to rub salt in the
wound or anything like that, as much as it is
unfortunately part of the discourse surrounding the team when you
talk about previewing them for the season. And I will
get into the nitty gritty of the Bengals with you
in just a moment, but before we do, I just

(02:55):
want to talk to you about this division as a whole.
As I mentioned in the intro Whiles Wasteland, it is
one of the most competitive divisions in football, year in
year out, where even the worst teams could still give
some of the best teams incredible run. You know, we
talk about Cleveland as being this like body feat of
the division, but even then, their defense is still pesky
and has given trouble to every team. And it seems

(03:15):
like every year you just always see stories coming out
of the North of its insanity, the intensity of every matchup.
And I want to ask you, with someone who cheers
for a team within this division. Obviously your team as
competitive as ever, paired with a bunch of teams that
have retooled and reshaped their rosters, what are your thoughts
on the AFC North going into this upcoming year and

(03:36):
do you think it's going to be close like it
usually is.

Speaker 1 (03:38):
Yeah, it's not really changing all that much, right. I
think that the dynamic from the last couple of years
is probably going to be exactly what it is. I
don't think that the Bengals are going to lose a
million one score games again. I think that even if
they were, they feelded the exact same team as last year,
which is clearly not a Super Bowl contender and a
team with incredible existential laws. It's still probably a ten

(04:02):
to eleven game winner that's going to make the playoffs
more often than not, just with with all the stuff
that didn't break their way last year in tight situations
in large parkers of the defense, but in large park
as a luck I mean, they lost a couple of
games on misfield goals, on this that or the other thing,
and if a little bit of that breaks the other way,
you go from nine wins to eleven, maybe even twelve

(04:22):
if you get on the luckier end. So I think
that you're obviously going to have the Bengals probably be
very very competitive like they were a year ago. The
Ravens are still probably pretty clearly the best team in
that division since the Bengals have kind of hemorrhaged out
a little bit, and they haven't. But I think that
that's sort of the state of play. At the top

(04:43):
of it. The Steelers are the way that they are.
I don't think that they've really changed that much. I
don't think that the Aaron Rodgers situation really changes them
that much. I don't think that the we'll talk a
little bit more about this as the beginning of the teams,
but I don't necessarily think that that's going to take
them from their baseline whatever they were to back into
something higher. I just don't think that's really the case.

(05:04):
So I think that you know, they're probably around five
hundred team and the Browns are terrible, but like they're
they're also not truly devoid of of of game wrecking talent,
specifically on the defensive side of the ball. So like
you said, they're they can get you on a on
a bad day and and and make it unpleasant for you.

(05:24):
So it's it's the AFC North, you know, these these
these teams are so entrenched in how they build their
in how they build things right, Like the Bengals front
office has been in place forever, the Ravens front office
has been in place forever, and the Steelers front office
and operation has been in place forever, so I think
that the consistency and continuity in in both identity and

(05:46):
competitiveness is due in large part to the consistent identities
of the franchise. And I think it's sort of a
bygone thing in modern sports, but it's it's something to appreciate.
It's really cool.

Speaker 2 (05:57):
Yeah, I love watching AFC North f every single season.
I think it's even the fact of a Cleveland game
and Pittsburgh game in the middle of December can still
be a close game. And you know, if you are
not a fan of defensive football, then maybe it's not
a matchup for you. But when you're someone who just
like all aspects of the game are welcomed, it's football.
You know, we're here in the middle of June thinking

(06:19):
about what football could look like on the TV right now,
so we miss it. And in the case of those matchups,
I agree, they're always intense, always competitive. And I really
like that you bring up the front offices because it's
not so much that it's all like these new regimes
or young head coaches or anything like that. It's like
a mostly experienced group of front offices and coaching staffs
that have been there and have seen each other, which

(06:41):
just means each matchup gets more and more intense because
tendencies are recognized. You know, the scheme of one team
isn't the new isn't a new thing next year, and
we're going to try and build to not only play
our brand of football but also try to stop you.
But that might get you in trouble with other teams.
Like it's there's so much like chess that goes on
in the AFC North that I think happened more than
really any other division, because like the West has kind

(07:03):
of been the Chiefs to lose, and they haven't until
maybe this year. We'll see what happens. You know, the
East has been the Bills pretty much in control, and
then the South is kind of just like the inverse
of the North, where there is a new winner, but
they kind of are always switching hands. So I love
this division just as a football fan. I hate that
the Bills have to play these teams this year because

(07:24):
like it's just always always a headache every single team
you have to face. But that's a testament to how
good these teams are, even with some of the you know,
performances last year that kind of led to scratching your
head or just being upset because it wasn't expectations lived
up to. And with that being said, you are the
guest here today. So we are going to begin with

(07:45):
the Cincinnati Bengals. And how I want to break this down,
Max is, I want to start just on the offensive
side of the ball, transition to the defensive side of
the ball, and then when we wrap up each team
semi final points you want to present. But since this
is your team, you cover them. They are coming off
a year that offensively was exciting. I mean, and how
could you look at that team and say they weren't.

(08:06):
You had the firepower of Jamar Chase, you had Joe
Burrow as surgical as he's really been in his career,
coming off a lot of concerns of his injury history
and whether that was good or rear it's ugly head.
He stays healthy, he is as good as he's been
MVP conversation. They're offensive rankings seventh and DPA per play fifth,
and passing EPA sixteenth, and rushing EPA. Although I still

(08:27):
am a huge fan of Chase Brown, I want to
hear your thoughts on the Bengals offense coming into this year.
They have Jamar, Chase and T Higgins now locked down
for the foreseeable future. They are bringing back Chase Brown.
They add in another rookie running back who I really like,
and uh top, oh my god, I thank you. I
almost said Boyd. I always almost say Boyd. So I like,

(08:49):
I go too fast and I mess it up. So
TODs Brooks, thank you. Though, yes he is. And that's
why I always get the name out first and I'm like, nope,
it's not the same TV. But with Brooks, it's like,
I think you've added a true compliment. Now, Zach Moss,
former Bill running back, you know I have a sawt
spot for because I believed in the potential. It didn't

(09:09):
pan out. He gets there, he gets hurt. Chase Brown
obviously emerges. I think he is your clear cut one.
I think that you do have competition for that backup role.
But all this to say, with MIKEASICKI the skill positions
are set for this team. This offense is not the concern.
What are your thoughts on it going into this year
with the additions they've made and how last season panned
out to now.

Speaker 1 (09:28):
Yeah, Well, I mean, the nice thing about the Bengals offense,
in addition to obviously the overwhelming talent they have at
quarterback and receiver, is the fact that the coaching staff
is really adaptable. We've seen we've seen them shift identity
so much from when they first got there with Andy

(09:49):
Dalton and they were just trying to retro fit Sean
mcvay's system to now they're doing something truly truly Andy Reid,
almost Mike holmgreenich that's really suited to to what Joe
Burrow does. Well. It's one of the few offenses that
still really really works with this level of complexity in
the drop back pass game, and I think that they
do as good of a job of it as anybody

(10:10):
in the league. But at the same time, they've recognized
the limitations of a spread attack in the modern day,
and I think that, you know, as they've sort of
encountered problems as a result of that with defenses selling
out to the pass and all that, they've done a
lot of good work schematically to address that with the
run game. Now it hasn't borne fruit because they just

(10:33):
cannot get the guard position right and no matter what
you do you need force on the interior toun the
football and you need movement up front, especially if you're
going to be a downhill duo gap scheme attack like
they want to be, which is good for attacking light boxes.
Right Like it's the schematic answer, it's the right answer.
It's again speaks to the coaching staff understanding exactly how

(10:55):
they need to construct this thing. They've used more two
tight end. They drafted Eric All unfortunately got hurt. He's
to miss the entire season. Is you know, with his history,
you don't know what that means for the rest of
his career. But at the same time, they really understand,
they really understand what they need to achieve. The tough
thing is that they just can't get the guard position right.

(11:16):
So I think that that's going to create limitations. But
you combine a coaching staff that is going to eventually
get to the right answers, that is able to be
presented with problems at points in the season, get on
the whiteboard and come up with answers that keep the
ship moving and counter punch at least a little bit.
So that's encouraging. I think again, we're going to run

(11:38):
into a little bit of a ceiling here because of
that guard situation. I think if the Bengals could could
come up with a top ten to twelve run game,
they would have the number one offense in the entire NFL.
That won't be the case until they do that, no
matter how good their quarterback and receivers are, just because
you look at Buffalo, you look at Baltimore, who in

(11:59):
my opinion, are the class of the league offensively by
a distance. They have those elite quarterbacks, but they also
have those elite run games as well, and and the
conflict created therein even if they don't have the same
level of receiver talent as the Bengals, is a huge
force multiplier. So I think that the bottom line, though,
is that the Bengals will be top five just having

(12:21):
an offense that's that's just hard not to do with
with Borough, Chase, and Higgins, And I think that's why
you lock them down is the combination of the three
on the field together is going to give you a
certain level of floor as an offense that you want
to anchor your franchise too. I'm all for that. It's
similar to what what the Colts did with Peyton, Reggie,

(12:42):
Wayne and Marvin Harrison, and I think that that is
that is not something anybody should be should be concerned about.
But you know again, I think the offense is going
to be really good. It's it's yeah, it's the other side.

Speaker 2 (12:58):
And we will get to the other side. But offense
specifically great analysis, and I think the Bengals have nothing
to worry about offensively as long as the course stays healthy.
I know that. Just starting with the receiver group, I mean,
there's nothing to be said about Jamar Chase that hasn't
already said. He is, in my opinion, the best receiver
in the NFL. He is an individual force of nature

(13:19):
that can carry an entire receiving corps even when he
is bracketed double covered safeties are selling out. However it
may be, he will find a way to get the ball,
and Joe Burrow knows that. And it's not forcing the issue.
When you have someone that good that can separate at
the ability he can to have the reliable hands that
he has, to be able to be a presence in
the red zone. Everything about him is a force multiplier
to and already in my opinion, elite top five quarterbacks.

(13:42):
So enough set about him with T Higgins, I genuinely
a year ago thought he would be gone before even
the season started. I thought it was a trade deadline
move or he would just might as well not play
on the tag and get traded and all this. So
when they locked him down, I didn't think it was
the wrong answer because T. Higgins is a very good
wide receiver. I think the class of wide receiver twos,

(14:03):
but I honestly consider him a one B. He plays
a different style of football than Jamar Chase. He has
the physicality, the reach. He is someone that will you know,
his athletic profile I think is great at the receiver position.
I feel like isn't as smooth, but doesn't need to
be as smooth either, And that's not saying he doesn't
have that in his game at all, but rather just
it's so hard to kind of outclash Jamar Chase and

(14:24):
the same offense, but a reliable, fantastic receiver that I
don't think is a bad idea to pay. Even in
the total roster building construction and the finances allocated to
other positions which we'll get to, I still think that
to make this Bengals team elevate, if you want to
immediately quell any sort of doubt about what next year

(14:44):
looks like. You hammer and invest in the shore thing,
which is your passing attack. It is the strength of
your team, It is the strength of your offense. And
the Bengals did that. So it's a sound investment in
my opinion, for a receiving core that paired with Mike Kasiki,
who seem to really find more like than he ever
had in his career in Cincinnati, paired with again Eric
All is not going to play, but someone who was

(15:05):
very promising could return. I think that this is a
skill position group of pass catchers that are just going
to continue to establish themselves as one of the best
I guess, full on units in the NFL. So I
don't have any doubt about that. I love your point
about the rushing attack for the Bengals because this is
the biggest thing for me. When I looked at sixteenth
and rushing EPA per play, it didn't feel that way,

(15:25):
And I truly felt like the best version of the
Bengals were when they were having downhill rushing success and
when it was with Chase Brown, who was extremely explosive,
especially when he reaches the second level, I think the
combination of better interior play, which we would have to
see if that happens this year, especially if they're trying
to establish themselves with a more physical run game, which
a lot of teams in the NFL seemed to be

(15:46):
catching up to the trend and trying to invest in
that and do more. I think with that, paired with
the potential of whether it is p Ryan, whether it
is Brooks, whether it is a healthy Zac Moss actually
having a full consistent compliment to Chase Brown, I think
that individually would elevate your rushing attack, even if by
a few spots, But that alone, like you mentioned, I think,

(16:06):
just continues to put the Bengals at the forefront of
offenses in the NFL, because if you could sell out
against the pass, you're still gonna get punched in the mouth,
you're still gonna give up points, but you could still
feel a little bit comfortable knowing that there's still in
a bit of a one dimensional spot, not fully, but
like half one dimensional, where it's like, all right, well,
we don't have to drastically change things because we still
trust that even with the white box will shut the

(16:28):
run game down. But now it's we can't do that,
So now we have to worry about an explosive rushing
attack in addition to Joe Burrow just navigating a pocket efficiently,
full on accuracy, and taking advantage of a really talented
skill position group. So for the Bengals offense to put
a bow on it, I fear it. I genuinely fear it.
As a Bills fan, We're gonna have our hands full

(16:49):
when they come to Orchard Park in December. And I
think that this is a unit that almost like you
brought up earlier about the one score games, Max, and
I actually really glad you did it early because it
wasn't a sustain way of losing, like the same way
the Bills had this one score game problem a few
years ago. I think they were zero to seven that season,
and everyone was like, this is gonna come back to
the mean at some point, even if they go to

(17:10):
five hundred, that's going to happen with the Bengals. And
they did that in a year where it was probably
the worst defense you have seen with Zach Taylor's whole group.

Speaker 1 (17:19):
And I won nine games exactly.

Speaker 2 (17:21):
Exactly, and it was nine games that if they didn't
have external help or I'm sorry, if they didn't have
a team externally win a game, could have made the
playoffs and end up facing Buffalo as a seven seed.
Like they still pulled themselves with them position. Just off
this offense alone, So we'll get to defense. But just
to wrap this up, improve it to the rushing attack
paired with an already explosive passing attack. This Bengals team can,

(17:44):
with the addition of getting back to the met in
their one score games, just be a playoff contender off
of that alone. And that's still going to be giving
a team too much to deal with in a playoff
game where even if the defense doesn't do anything different
this year as far as output and production, it's still
going to be that could potentially go on a run.
So it's a good unit. It's just there's no other

(18:05):
way to say it. It's really good. But I'm gonna turn
it back to you, Max Ady, final thoughts on the
offense before we get to the not as fun part. Right, Uh?

Speaker 1 (18:12):
But yeah, I mean, I'm I think that a full
compliment and a full backfield, like you said, is gonna
be a big deal because anytime Chase Brown would come
off field, Zach Moss. You know, he's had a great career,
but athletically he's kind of been diminished by injury from
an already underwhelming profile, and at this point he's just
like it's just not happening with him. TODs Brooks, I
think is a really good player. He's very efficient, He's

(18:34):
he's smart, he reads blocks well, he reacts well, he's
sufficient in how he runs. I think he's got a
little bit of wiggle and quickness in the short area
to him that I think can help him make guys
miss and tight spaces, which is really good in this
kind of offense because teams are gonna bring those safeties
down late into the alley from those two high looks,
and you're gonna have to be able to shuffle him

(18:56):
out if you want to, if you want to get
by him, because we're not we're not to block them.
Uh So, you know it's it's you need that a
little bit. And I think that he's he's a good
he's a you know, I wrote a piece about this
right after the draft. Texas text run blocking was just
he was just awful, and he was just consistently cleaning

(19:17):
up bad looks and finding ways to get five to
seven yards in situations that would get him, you know,
zero to two. So that's that's that's great, that's great.
The Bengals desperately need that and they need that to translate.
I think that'll help. I don't think anything will change
monumentally until they figure out the guard position, which they
just aren't doing. They're just not doing it, So that's

(19:38):
you know, that's that's gonna be what it's gonna be.
But I think the Bengals passing game continues to find
more answers. I'm not really expecting anything from Jermaine Burton
after last year, but if if you know, somehow that
can happen, that would be incredible. I don't think they
need it to I think they drafted him in the
anticipation that they would let Te Higgins walk, and they
got into a position where that was not longer tenable,

(20:00):
so they resigned him, and now they don't necessarily need that,
So I think that that would be great. Kasicki is
obviously a good Tyler Boyd kind of replacement, and he's
sort of settled into that role in the Bengals have
had had a tough time replacing that when Tyler Boyd
took a step back. That's a big thing they have,

(20:21):
especially on third downs. So yeah, it's a good unit.
It's a good unit. Burrow especially is just he's just
he's just so good when it's not easy and when
it's not clean, because he's able to consistently find answers
from the pocket, which is just the only sustainable way
to really really beat difficult defenses. And I think that

(20:42):
when you have that guy who can do that, that
is kind of the ultimate security blanket. So it's gonna
be hard to have a bad offense with with that
guy and good receivers.

Speaker 2 (20:52):
Yeah, Joe Burrow is kind of the closest thing we
have to like the true old guard of NFL quarterbacks,
like from that mid two thousands on, where it's just
pure pocket navigation and just surgical precision with his arm,
good arm strength, just able to throw all three levels
of the field cleanly, but also like manipulate with his
eyes when he has a clean pocket, like be able

(21:12):
to lead and not put you know, not kind of
put it on your chest, but put it ahead of you.
Like all these factors of him is what makes him
such a good quarterback and why I'm a huge fan
of him as a football fan, not as a Bills fan,
but one person I also want to highlight on their
offense too. I'm a big Yoshi Bash fan. I just
think as a complimentary wide receiver three, he is just

(21:33):
like obviously not to the prowess of Jamar Chase to
Ta Higgins, but I really like him as a boundary
option rotating in, especially when those two are commanding so
much attention, and I think he's come through in significant
spots for them, and I think it's just another testament
to this receiving group that, you know, people could say
what they want about the Bengals, the organization, how they're
building the roster. This receiving group, especially if you get

(21:55):
any sort of positive development from Jermaine Burton, is in
my opinion, very effective, very deep with elite talent, and
also serviceable role playing talent too. So I wanted to
note that. But as someone who watched Cody Ford for
many years, I wish you the best. Maybe he has
a late bloom, I don't know. It just it was

(22:16):
just infuriating to watch in Buffalo, and he was kind
of a part of like the similar issue that you
just described and I don't want to only single him
out because it is like a whole line problem. But
like the Bills used to have terrible interior guard point,
like it just was that way they couldn't run effectively,
Like I remember that that year. I think it was
actually the year we lost to you in the divisional
round where it was Singletary and Moss and they just

(22:38):
had no push whatsoever from the interior. And Singletary is
not an explosive player. He's more of like, I'm hard
to knock down, but I need to follow my blockers
kind of Boss is like kind of a power guy.
You didn't have the proper push to you for either
of those skill sets, so you just kept getting stalled
out or making Josh Allen have to scramble or use
his legs and putting him in bins. And it's like

(22:58):
seeing that that's still the unfortunate because again, as a
football fan, if that's the key to unlocking this offense,
you're you're really holding yourselves back. And I'm hoping that
in the future they can allocate enough resources to that
position to find someone whether it's in free agency or
the draft, that can just again elevate that rushing attack
because there is potential there.

Speaker 1 (23:18):
But yeah, it's going to have to be in the draft.
I mean, they drafted a couple of interior guys, so
you hope that they find something, but you know they didn't.
They didn't draft them super high. I kind of wanted
them to take Tate Ratleige in the second. That didn't happen,
but you know it's we'll.

Speaker 2 (23:33):
See, we will see, and we will see about this defense.
And this was I talked to. I don't know how
I got in this conversation when it was the AFC,
well it was the AFC South Show, So I was
talking about the Colts because I think the Colts defense
is going to be a dark horse for top ten,
top five in the league. With lou An Arumo. The
departure of an Arumo, I want to start with that

(23:54):
because I am a firm believer that he should not
have been fired. I'm just adamant about I believe in
him as a coach, what he does, what he brings,
the disguising, the like. Not inconsistent, that's the wrong word,
but just I will send as many rushers as I want,
but I will only send three and drop everyone to
coverage and I'll show you a blitz, but it's not
going to be a blitz. I'll show you creepers, I'll
show you everything. It was just such a fun defense

(24:16):
when he had the pieces, and last year obviously he
did still have some of his pieces, but it felt
like between injury and an experience, like, yes, it was
a down year for this defense. I didn't think firing
him was the answer. What do you think about the
departure of Van Rumo, your new defensive coordinator? I mean,
what is this transition in your eyes? Is something you're

(24:36):
embracing or is it something you're kind of like, I
am very iffy about this. I wish we kept Flue well.

Speaker 1 (24:41):
I mean it's kind of a little bit of both, right, Like,
I think that the reason that they moved on from
him in addition to the biggest reason, which is just
like some headhead to roll after that, and that's just
the nature of the game, fair or unfair most of
the time unfair, but at the same time, as great
of a game planner as Ana Roumo has been, the

(25:03):
tough thing has been the construction of a and this
kind of goes hand in hand with how good of
a game planner he is is is that they've had
issues developing and fitting talent to roles, and a big
part of that is that their system is so amorphous
and undefined under Anarumo in the sense that they could

(25:24):
go week to week and do everything, which has been
their greatest asset in the postseason and is why they
always played up in the postseason. But at the same time,
when it comes to replacing and developing talent, you have
huge issues with that because you don't know what kind
of puzzle you're trying to build. And so if you
look at the best defenses and Buffalo is a great

(25:44):
example of this that develop talent, especially at specific position groups,
they have a very defined system, very defined roles, and
they know how to identify the skill sets for those roles.
It was ultimately Bill Belichick's superpower, right like Bill Belichick
wasn't Bill Belichick was a great game planner. Bill Belichick
was a great problem solver as a defensive mind, but

(26:06):
his great superpower was understanding that the roles that he
needed and constructing a unit. And so the Bengals had huge,
huge issues doing that over the last couple of years,
in large part because of that that you know, ill
defined structurelessness of the defense. And so when you lose
guys like von Bell who left kind of you know,

(26:29):
declined athletically and then came back and Jesse Bates, who's
one of the best problem solving all around do everything
safeties in the league. When you lose guys like that,
your your ace communicator and you're do everything guy who
can come down and cover the tight end of man coverage.
Who can you know, buzz down to the flat and
make plays, And you know, as a as a rotating safety,

(26:51):
who can rotate to the post, who can you know,
come down and fit the run as well? Who can
just do everything? You lose those do everything guys that
do everything kind of system becomes a little bit more
difficult and that was devastating to them, and so they
tried to replace it with Daxon Hill. But Jackson Hill,
by nature is a corner. I think they've found out

(27:14):
that he's actually an outside corner rather than even just
a nickel. But like he's a cover guy, he's long,
he's athletic, he's not Jesse Bates, And so they drafted
him to replace Jesse Bates, and that did obviously didn't
work because he's not Jesse Bates, and so when you
lose that, you know, it starts to become like what
are you building to? How do you use these players?
And as a result, like they've had a bunch of

(27:37):
picks flame out. And I think that the development arc
of Daxon Hill is kind of the best example of
how that goes, and so I think that it's justified
to make a change from that, especially when when it
bottoms out like that. But at the same time, like
you know, for a confer event defense, like he's almost

(28:01):
kind of this is more of a hockey thing, but
there are developing coaches and coaches that you hire to
get a roster over the top, like you're like Pete
de Boor is a great example of this, Like you'll
hire him for two years with a completed roster because
he's to die for it and he I think lou
Ana Rola as a coordinator is one of those guys.

Speaker 2 (28:22):
And I think for him going to Indy, That's why
I highlighted it because I think Indy has all the
pieces to be a successful defense, especially the defensive line,
which like I look at their death chart and I
like I went out a sigh. I was like, holy crap,
Like there's so much talent on this line, and I
feel like it doesn't get acknowledged nearly as much as
it should that I think he'll do really well there.
I like your points, and I just have to ask,

(28:43):
do you feel like that coaching decision to move on
from him and what you just described as maybe trying
to build this kind of I guess you want to
call it like a matching defense, one that can be
tailor made to really any offense. But this, I guess
you want to call it the peril of the development
when it comes to we need to have an identity
but also don't want to stick to one thing. Do
you think that has anything to do maybe with the

(29:03):
front office too, and limitations to who he is able
to have access to, who they are able to sign,
who they do want to go after, or who they
do want to draft, Like because given kind of a
contract situation which we're going to talk about, I just
wonder how much of a hand they had and maybe
Anne Roomo not being able to fully realize the approach
he had to roster building at least on his side
of the ball, and if that might have led to

(29:24):
a clash that ultimately led potentially to his department.

Speaker 1 (29:27):
Yeah, yeah, this huge one. They should have just signed
Jesse Bates, Jesse Bates thirteen million dollars right now. Like
the solution to losing Jesse Bates is not to lose
Jesse Bates. Jesse Bates would be great right now and
it would solve a lot of problems. And they probably
would have won twelve thirteen games last year if they
had Jesse Bates on the roster and made no other changes. Like, seriously,
as bad as the run defense was, and that was

(29:48):
really the beginning of the end for everything, jesse Bates
would have put out so many fires and gotten them
just a few spots better and made that system work
so much more so. Yeah, yeah, they've placed huge limitations
on him. Losing jesse Bates again is just was sort
of the beginning of the end of everything. They also

(30:12):
they lost DJ Reader, they let him walk and they
replaced him with a three technique and Sheldon Rankins, which
makes no sense whatsoever because then you go into the
season with no nose tackle. So the construction of the
roster was very incoherent, and that's not necessarily his fault.
I mean, look, I don't know how much knowing the Bengals,
not as much as you would like, but like you know,

(30:33):
maybe you know who knows what he said he needed.
But at the same time, like you keep Jesse Bates
and you replace d because they just signed TJ. Slayton
to do that role. And if they had made a
signing like that a year ago and kept Jesse Bates,
we are not having this conversation right now. I think
they still would have been bad, but they would have
been able to rebuild.

Speaker 2 (30:52):
It would have been a little more appealing. It would
have at least had more high moments rather than kind
of being like a consistent script every week of laps
in converage lapses and tackling from depth and also run defense,
which had been a big pain point for them. And
I want to get into the actual roster construction of
this defense because it is right.

Speaker 1 (31:09):
I mean, they would have won like three more games.
They would have beat the Ravens twice. They had double
digit leads and this year ago they have double digit
leads on the Ravens twice. They gave up like a
bazillion points to Oh God, to Washington, Washington. I don't
think punch it a single time. As good as their
offense was, they would have won that game. They would
have beat the Ravens twice. They would have like and

(31:31):
that right, there is three more games. That's twelve.

Speaker 2 (31:33):
With even one more game after last year ten and
seven probably gets them a playoff spot too. They probably
are able to take. I would say maybe that Washington
game or maybe one of those Ravens games. They like,
they were a team that I really again think they're
not going to have that same bad luck this year.
And it really just depends, in my eyes more so

(31:53):
on this this roster right now, which just starting with
the d line, the obvious the elephant in the room,
but the Hendrickson situation and the Stewart situation and the
the roster beyond those two players, it would be very
problematic if those two players, I mean Stuart, you know
it's a projection because he's a rookie, right, but there's
a lot of upside with his athleticism and obviously the

(32:14):
tape when he was in college. You know, people look
at the production profile, but it's like, no, don't look
at that d Lin's production profile because it is very misleading,
Like he is a very talented athletic player. And then
of course with Hendrickson, one of the best pass rushers
in the NFL, consistently putting up numbers. And there are
members of this interior D line and then the death
that I do like but not enough to elevate as

(32:34):
starters like McKinley. Jackson to me was more of like
a true one technique like run stuffing defensive tackle Chris
Chenkins Junior, a three tech that had potential, but someone
that I feel like is still developing. You gotta have
these cornerstone players, or at least the cornerstone player and
the first round pick. I mean, the four is yours
on this defense. Max, I want you to just give
me your unfiltered, honest thoughts about it right now. Did

(32:56):
they do enough? What if not, then what is still needed?
And what do you think happens with this unit this
upcoming season? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (33:03):
I mean they kind of did nothing. In fact, if
they if Trey Hendrickson doesn't play, they did so much
less than nothing. They made it so much worse. The
fact of the matter is, like you know, there's there's
the old there's the old adage in life, right, it
could always be worse. The Bengals defense could be worse.
There's a path to them being considerably worse next year.
And so yeah, all this luck and even out, and

(33:25):
they'll still be nine to eight with an elite offense
because the defense instead of being like twenty eighth was
like forty second beyond half of the sec So like
they could they could be one. They could be horrible
without Hendrickson. So they need that needs to get figured out.
He needs to be on the team this year. They did.
They have not put themselves in a position where they

(33:47):
could let a guy like that walk or not play.
So he's got to play, regardless of the merits of
signing a guy of his age to whatever. You don't
have a choice. They they don't have a choice. So
that's that's got to get done. Shamar Stewart, I think
is only I think is a really good play is

(34:07):
a really good player. I think he's gonna for what
he is, which is a strong side defensive end that
is nasty against the run and occasionally just is not
a productive pass rusher but crushes pockets a little bit
and it's kind of just disruptive. Doesn't get the kind
of quality of pressure to ever run up sack totals,
but in conjunction with a guy like Hendrickson who is
commanding resources and winning clean, that gives you enough of

(34:30):
a compliment that your your edges are both as a
collective really good. And of course that that strong side
run defense compliment is huge because Treed Hendrickson is terrible
against the run, so that's that's big, and they did
not have that last year with Sam Hubbard declining, and
that was such a big part of of their defense previously,

(34:50):
is that Hubbard was able to do that. So if
you're signing up for Hendrick or for Stewart, is that
that's great, But that does kind of require a little
bit that you have have Hendrickson on the other end.
So they both have to be on this team. They
both have to be on the field, and they both
have to have a proper camp because you can't go
into the season again with a situation like they had

(35:13):
with Chase last year where he didn't participate in camp
and wasn't up to speed again until week three and
you start zero and two because of that, like they
would have beaten the Chiefs and the Patriots had Jamar
Chase at a full camp, and that's two more wins.
It's two more wins on that total. So it's you know,
it's you can't they I don't even it doesn't even
feel like worthwhile even say this, because they're just probably

(35:35):
gonna do it anyway and let this, let this ride
out to the point where it's kind of productive, but
they can't beyond that. I think the interior has a
chance to actually be okay. I liked I liked TJ.
Slayton as a true run stuffing knows. I think he's
one of the better ones in the league. Doesn't do
much else, but they don't need anything else from that position.

(35:56):
I think BJ Hill is a pretty decent player. I
don't think he's great or anything, but I think he's
a pretty solid player. And if you line up with
those four, I think you have something average to slightly
above average, which I can really live with. The linebackers
I think, are you know, not great. Logan Wilson's a
really good player, but beyond him, you know, did Jermaine

(36:17):
Pratt not living up to that contract was a huge issue,
just athletically and in coverage. They had to hues at
that spot. Demetrius Knight is not who I would have
picked with that second round pick, but you know, we'll see,
we'll see. I think that he does do some things well,
and I think he gives you a lot of that

(36:37):
run defense that that pract give you, that Pratt gave you,
because he runs and hits well. So you know, we'll see,
we'll see about them. I think the back end is
just like is a total grab bag. It's a super
weird group. They have, they have some promise. I know
they like Cam Taylor Britt a little bit more than
I do. He's he's He's shown a lot of flashes

(36:59):
as a man corner earlier in his career. I don't
think he has the athleticism necessarily to recover, so when
he gets beat, he gets beat pretty bad. He's he's
good with his with his hands, He's he's strong, he's good,
he's good at jamming guys up at the line and
sticking with him. But when he gets beat, he can't recover,
so that can get ugly. Jackson Hill, on the other
side at outside corner, showed a lot of promise before

(37:21):
his injury, but you know, we we haven't really seen
him at that position for any sustained period of time,
So that's an unknown. You know, Mike Hilton's gone, which
is tough, but he he hadn't been the same in
the last year or so anyway, So they're they're trying
to roll with Dejon Anthony at that position. He showed
some promise as a spot guy and as a as

(37:43):
a dimebacker, and and they got Josh Newton, who I
actually thought was pretty nice at the end of the
year last year. So you know, it's just an interesting group.
It's a it's just an interesting group, and I think
that that they're just going to try to cobble that
thing together. Uh. If they get everything right on the front,

(38:06):
then I think they have a chance to be okay.
They need a leap from Jordan Battle. But the problem
that I have personally is that they're running a system
that demands excellence a corner rather than just like getting
good enough, like they're gonna be playing so much cover
one if Al Golden's doing anything like what he did
at Notre Dame, and you need you need guys outside

(38:28):
for that. And they have they have okay, they have
the potential to be okay. They don't have the potential
to really survive doing that, So I'm worried about that
a little bit. But if they can figure out that front,
you know it, it can create a little bit of
a high variance situation, which for them is fine because
last year it wasn't high variants. It was very consistent
in what was happening. So if they can get from

(38:51):
bust to boom or bust, they can live with that.
So I think that's path, but it's I don't think
it's a great unit. It's just it's just.

Speaker 2 (38:58):
Not so considering last season, not great to even average
would still be in that positive when you talk about
a team that finished nine and eight with the one
score game discrepancy. So I definitely think that that's a
path for them. What I do wonder without Golden is
considering that he did coach your linebackers during that kind
of you want to call it Golden era where you

(39:18):
did have that group really fortified and they were making
a lot of plays. Does that room improve and then
with that improvement, you know, kind of mixing them in
with your front and being able to again disguise different
blitzes and be able to kind of mix things up,
whether it's going with odd fronts, whether it's just setting
and shooting, whether it's Logan Wilson or maybe Demetrius Knight
through the gap, Like, is that the path for them

(39:39):
to really, again, like you said, create, have it, create
disruption and offset some of the lapses on the back
end while they still build that unit. There's a player
you guys still have, and I know you brought him
up briefly, but with DJ Turner, you know what the
speed he has and and the fact that he's been
kind of a player that's been coming along and ramping
up each season. Does this system help him when it
comes to kind of capitalizing on that speed and maybe

(40:00):
if it's single coverage, if he is man demand, can
they put him in better positions to succeed. Can they
develop him a little more, because I think that position
getting elevated a little bit more, if he's able to
stay healthy during the duration of a season, is a
huge benefit for your defense. But again, it really just
rests on the shoulders of what happens with Stewart and Hendrickson.
And you know, I like that you brought up the
fact that Stuart's more of like, at least in the

(40:21):
context of this defense, potential to be that setup man
for Hendrickson, because that is all you want when you
have an all world pass rusher, and that is something
that individually can make this defense really a threat, even
if they're one that you know gives up rushing yards,
gives up points, because you can offset that if you're
generating negative plays, if you're creating disruption in the backfield,
and I think with them, that potential is still there.

(40:43):
I don't think it's all doom and gloom, but it
is a lot of what ifs and a lot of
question marks that again, within a rumo, even if you
were worried about development of young players, you at least
knew what the defensive game plan was going to look like.
We can week out based off a matchup. If you're
paying close attention and you know how he likes to
run his system without Golden. Is it going to be
a one for one copy of what he did in college?

(41:04):
Is it going to have tweaks based off the scheme?
Is that going to inhibit what he wants to do
in year one? Is it a growing pain season. That's
the question I have, And to kind of just summarize
it within context of the division, I think that that's
going to be the thing that either propels them to
actually you know, if it's Baltimore being right up there
with them towards season, then maybe lapping them or unfortunately

(41:26):
not getting to that point, but rather fighting for a
wildcard spot, which I think even if they are doing that,
that's not to dismiss the talent on the team or
the potential of them in a playoff run, but rather
just for division's sake and who can exploit who and
who can win the chess match more and who has
more firepower that would be the thing that I would
worry holds them back, as well as some of the
points we made on offense. But I don't think like

(41:47):
for Bengals fans, it's a group that is, you know,
like you've pointed out void of every void at every
position that there's nothing to be optimistic about. Like, yes,
if they go through camp and Hendrickson isn't on the field,
it's worried some, but he's a thirty year old, experience
all world pass rusher. Those are the guys that can
ramp up fairly quickly. It's almost like those guys that
sit at home and wait for a team to call

(42:08):
him when the season ramps up because they don't want
to do training camp. Like Leonard Floyd did for the
Bills a couple of years ago, he came right in
and was their most productive pass rusher. Like, I don't
worry about the time away as much, but I still
do think you want to get that situation resolved. But
even if not and he ends up playing it out
this year, it's still Trey Hendrickson. I don't see a
Hubbard like drop off for him. And again, Stewart's athletic profile,

(42:28):
even if it's not consistent sacks, like the disruption he
could create in the backfield, that'll be great for your defense.
And I think it's a realistic thing, Like it's not
a pipe dream, it's not over optimistic. It's this is
why you drafted him in the first round. Get the
contract situation resolved and that production is going to be
there for you, and maybe more considering what his role
was in college and how limited him. So that's all

(42:49):
I really got. You got anything else on this, Max
before we move on? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (42:52):
No, I mean it's I think that the path for
them is just to be is to be advanced. Joseph
Ish variants defense ends the year average to slightly below average,
but is able to burn bright in some games. And
I think, you know, in the games where you get gashed,
the offense needs to pick you up like they did
last year. I mean, it's not like it's not like
their choices are being stably good or being boom or bust.

(43:16):
Their choices are being are just getting destroyed or or
creating variants. So I think that I think that they're
going to be a team that is aggressive, is sending
a lot of pressure, and it's playing a lot of
tight coverage, and I think the Chips they're going to
try to let the chips fall where they may and
and gamble a little bit, which I think is probably
the move. So, you know, they just got to get

(43:38):
the situation right with these guys, because even if Hendrickson
can ramp up quickly, which I definitely think he will
be able to, they don't have time. They have so
much pressure on them at the beginning of the season
because of how poorly they have always started that they
don't have that luxury.

Speaker 2 (43:54):
Yeah, I forgot about that too. It's like a slow
start out of your Pokemon guy, Max. But they're the
Reggie giggas of the league. They just they have an
ability that makes it three turns until they actually have
full attack power, and in their case, it's three to
four weeks. It's so strange because it's a very consistent
thing they did. But like I remember the Brady era
Patriots did that every year too. It was like they
started out two and two and then you get the

(44:14):
ooh are they done, and then they go on like
a ten win run. It's the Bengals. It's a team
that I think I will be at the forefront of
the playoff conversation all year long. They just missed it
this year. I don't think that's going to happen again.
I fully expect them to go back, especially if those
defensive improvements happened. But for something that Bengals fans can
hang their hat on, that offense is going to be
just fine. It's going to be the crux as long

(44:36):
as everyone stays on the field together. Burrow is going
to have another great year with a very talented group
of pass catchers and marginal improvement to your rushing attack
if that is possible this year with the four to
five complimentary role to Chase Brown and also I didn't
mention this before. But even if it's bad interior guard play,
the kind of cop out, if you want to call
it of just extension of the run with the short

(44:57):
pass the swing the screen, I still think could be
a very serviceable thing. The Bengals already do it, but
even more so with some of their new additions. I
really like that for them if they can't get that
going consistently, even because it might be a break in
the action where the threat of the backfield now becomes
something where we're trying to sell it to defend that
pass if it's burning us, and they actually do get
some push in the middle or of success, whether it's

(45:18):
a gap or duo run. So I'm excited to watch
it for them, but I want to move on to oh,
did you have one more point I find No, No,
I was cool.

Speaker 1 (45:26):
I'm excited to watch.

Speaker 2 (45:27):
It, just want to make sure because we're moving on
to the Ravens and this roster stack. There's no other
way to put it. They had a season and no,
I am not trying to rub in the salt in
the wounds for Ravens fans. A season where they fell
short in the playoffs to US humble bragg but also
that is the objective truth. But it does not take
away from how talented this roster is. It does not

(45:48):
take away from the potential of this team as a
Super Bowl contender. The Ravens are also at the forefront
of the league when it comes to death, when it
comes to just overall threats at every single position having
some level of explosive to elite talent. They have an
MVP quarterback, all Pro running back, a really talented group
of wide receivers that has the luxury of making DeAndre

(46:09):
Hopkins a wide receiver three. They have one of the
best tight ends in the league. They have a fullback
that blocks his ass off and is a huge chess
piece when it comes to how they run schematically with
the rushing attack and their passing attack. They have an
offensive line that has retooled itself yet never really lost
its stride. It is an insanely deep group that is
as threatening as ever, and Todd Munkin is just the

(46:33):
perfect remedy for some of the woes they had a
couple of years ago with Greg Roman, who I felt
limited this team a bit, made him a bit too
reliant on the run to a point where they were
just kind of kryptonite to their passing attack and it
wasn't as effective. Tom Munkin has just found that balance.
The RPO game is menacing the threat of Lamar's legs,
pair with Derek Henry and even the death pieces like

(46:54):
Justice Hill and eventually ket and Mitchell when he returns.
There's just an explosive threat everywhere. So Max, you have
seen this team, you have face them, Your team has
faced them many times. Let's start with the offense for
the Ravens, and I want to hear your thoughts on
what this looks like this upcoming season.

Speaker 1 (47:09):
Yeah, I think in many ways, if you know you
had to build the ideal modern offense, it's just Baltimore.
I think that they are the best offense in the league.
I think they that I think overall, the them, the Bills,
and the Eagles are just cut above the entire rest
of the league going into next year. And I think

(47:30):
that that obviously starts with their offense. They you know,
they were insanely efficient last year, almost historically, so I
don't think that's going to go anywhere, and I think
there are very clear reasons for that. I think that
like when you look at how they run the football
first and foremost, and how they force you to defend them,
which is like it's in large part not just due
to Lamar's legs adding an extra number, but with how

(47:55):
good their auxiliary blockers are. With Patrick Rocard taking Patrick Card,
it's listed a fullback, and he does do some fullback stuff,
but he is there starting wide tight end now in
this in this offense, so he's doing all the inline blocking,
and he's just dominant. He's dominant. He's one of the
arguably the best in the league as an inline blocker
because you know, he's three hundred pounds, He's he's bigger

(48:17):
than every defensive end, which you can't say about any
other tight end except for maybe darn Old Washington. He's
he's a total road grader, and he's one of the
most important players in the roster. I think they could
stand to lose Mark Andrews way more easily than they
could stand to lose Patrick or Card.

Speaker 2 (48:35):
I totally agree with that.

Speaker 1 (48:37):
Just schematically. And and they have Charlie Kohler to go
along with him in the f spot, which most teams
use a majority of the time as a slot receiver
for them Is Andrews are likely almost all the time,
so they are they are a twelve and thirteen personnel team,
like a good seventy percent of the time I've wrote

(48:57):
about this, But they were there in eleven in the twenties,
which is absurd. The average team is in the mid
fifties in eleven personnel usage. The Ravens are in the
high twenties. So they're built like a service academy. They're
the closest to the closest the NFL will ever see
to a service academy, So you have to defend them

(49:18):
that way. But like, they're still putting pass catchers on
the field, and they still have an elite passer and
they have a fantastic play action game off of that,
so they're passing game. And you know, Lamar's job is
a pro as a true dropback passer. Is so much
easier than Burrows, is so much easier than Allen's, and
is so much easier than Patrick Mahomes, who has probably

(49:40):
the hardest job in the entire NFL quarterback right now,
aside from the guys like Drake May who are just
playing in you know, disaster situations. But but like you know,
As much as that seems like as as like a
discredit to Lamar, it's not because he's the one who

(50:00):
creates those conditions. So he is a human dominant run game.
And so the result of that and what that means
about him as an offensive engine, as a powerhouse of
an offense is just is insane. He is just the
fact that you can get that kind of run game

(50:22):
just by having him there and building around him in
a way that makes sense, is a force that no
other NFL team has. No other NFL team has that,
and so it's such a unique force and it makes
it interesting to evaluate him as a quarterback. But it
definitely goes into it and whether you want to, you know,

(50:44):
talk about the pure dropback stuff, which is still really
really good from him. It's just not on the same
level as Burrow and Mahomes who I don't who are
you insane? It doesn't really matter at the end of
the day because of what he because the run game
is just part of the whole. So the fact that
they're able to create those conditions just makes them so efficient.

(51:05):
It makes them so explosive in the passing game because
you have to you have to sell out against it,
or they'll just rush for three hundred yards on you
and you'll never win a game. Giving up through under
yards in the ground, You'll never will. They will, especially
now with Derrick Henry, which has taken it to a
whole other level because he is also a home run threat.

(51:26):
Those other guys were solid, and they were still able
to have the best run games in the NFL with
those guys, but with Henry it's a totally different thing.
So they're undefendable in many ways unless they're just not
playing well, which is not really going to happen a lot.
So yeah, they have the best offense in the league.
I expect that to continue. They Flowers just continues to

(51:46):
get better and better and better. Rashad Bateman has become
consistent in what he is now that he's been able
to stay a little bit healthy. He's not a volume guy,
but he's a good downfield threat and he can do
enough to not just be one dimensional. Again. Flowers is
really good as well and has developed into a stud.
Mark Andrews I think still has it as a power slot.

(52:08):
When they do want to play more eleven personnel stuff,
they just flex him out into the slot and have
him do that. He's still really good and he's still
one of the best red zone targets in the league.
Their O line was young last year. Roger Rosengarten has
become a stud so that's really coming along. Charlie Kohler
as another blocker in the core is a huge element

(52:29):
for them. So they've they've just got it all right
there they are. They draft Le Chante Western, who I
think is another good vertical threat target and just a
classic raven smart move. It's the best offense in the
league until it's not.

Speaker 2 (52:45):
I I yeah, you said it perfectly. It's the just
the constant threat of the run. It's like the the
elephant in the room when you discuss how you defend
their offense, because even if you're worried about maybe them
going for a more conventional drop back game based off
how defensive lines with them, it's always they can do that.

Speaker 1 (53:02):
They can still do that. Yeah, I don't want to
take away from there. It's just not as good as
some of the other teams. It's still in top ten
in the league easily.

Speaker 2 (53:11):
Yeah. I think that their offense is just truly heightened
by that constant threat and all it trickles down into everything.
You talk about having to defend the Baltimore Ravens, and
it's not just the fact that Derek Henry's in the backfield.
It's not just the fact that Lamar Jackson can also
run with the ball or pass off the run. It's
not just the fact that they have these all world
skill positions. But the biggest component is the fact that

(53:33):
they're effective at blocking at every single every single spot,
whether it's their offensive line, whether it's even some of
their receivers, even if they're just willing blockers, their tight ends,
like they have push at all spots, and they just
wear you down with constant physicality too, because it's also
a lot of big framed guys, so of course with
an no line, but especially you know, you're not talking

(53:53):
about like a questionable frame tight end. You're not talking
about like again with pat Riccard, who's a human bust.
It's we want to just basically make you fear how
physical we're going to play and getting you punched in
the mouth constantly, to a point where now you have
to always worry about them pulling that on you at
some point in the game, and honestly, they will. It's

(54:14):
not even a matter of can we stop this and
shut it down? You know, in the playoff game that
we played against them, they still had a lot of
success on the ground in the third and fourth quarter.
It was just a matter of we had time of possession.
And that's honestly the way you gotta beat them is
bleed out the clock. Take the running game out of it.
But if they have to go to true drop back passing,
munkn has the concepts to make it so that they

(54:36):
are still very difficult to defend, whether that is using
motion or misdirection, whether that is crowding aside of the field,
and then whether it's got to be Mark Andrews or
Isaiah Likely or someone who comes out of the slot
unguarded because you didn't account for him, because you didn't
expect him to go up field. Like it is a
million different factors that make them like a constant Rubik's
cube to solve in real time. That's kind of what

(54:57):
I compare it to and it's why they are one
of the best of not the best offense in the league.
Right now, you know, saying this is a Bills fan
who got to watch, you know, historic performances from the
offense this past season, but I still tip my cap
to what they are able to do because they have
just mastered, as you said, pure efficiency and it's it's
just set up so well for Lamar Jackson too, who

(55:17):
I already praised as one of the best quarterbacks in
the NFL before Monka got there. I'm a huge fan
of Lamar Jackson. There's never any ill will from me
on this show, especially after this past season, which was
just a bloodbath between Bills fans and Ravens fans, which
I hope never happens again. It unfortunately will because that's
just the NFL right now, and you have these quarterbacks
at the front of it. But Lamar Jackson right now

(55:38):
is playing the best ball of his career and he's
going to continue to do that for probably the next
half a decade decade as long as he stays healthy.
His deep ball accuracy, in my opinion, is just is
just each year improved. But now that you have Monkin
to scheme people to get separation, building a room of
separators too. Rashaan Bateman, who each year has progressed but
has really shown that development this past season. Zay Flowers,

(56:01):
who I really like is a downfield threat like all
of these guys. And this isn't a knock on Lamar. Oh,
he's just throwing the wide open guys. But rather like,
how do you help the consistent development of someone's deep
all accuracy. Get them guys that are getting open, get
them guys that are going downfield, be able to throw
in stride and not have to fear about like any
sort of defensive breakup where you can now develop hold

(56:22):
your craft to a point where when they are covered,
you're still throwing. It is what I'm seeing from Lamar Jackson,
Like you have this cast of characters, this blocking prowess,
this ability to do anything they want Schematically, do you
want to show misdirection and just run downhill? Do you
want to do an end a round and still get
the blocking on the perimeter where you're going to have
someone wide open? Do you want to not do either

(56:43):
of those things and just drop back? You have all that,
and then you have a quarterback who's just developed his
game to such a ridiculous level that he executes it
so well that they just have no weakness And it
really just takes a team to outpace them and outscore
them to be able to beat them, and it can happened.
It happened to any team, but with the Ravens, especially
this year, with the defensive side of the ball, which

(57:05):
I want to get to now, they just don't feel
like a team that is going to get punched in
the mouth on defense either, especially in that front. Their
secondary is fortified. I mean, Max, I want to talk
about really their draft, because I mean they walked away
with two basically two first round talents, like obviously with

(57:25):
Malachi Starks, who I really liked. I thought the Bills
actually had a chance to get him when he was
falling in the twenties and I was like, oh my god,
I don't care about corner anymore. I want Malachi Starks.
He goes to the freaking Ravens to pair with Kyle Hamilton,
who now they're going to interchange those safeties. They're going
to move them all over the field, they're going to
disguise everything with them, and you're gonna have no idea
what it's going to look like post snap. And then

(57:46):
of course Mike Green, as an individual talent alone was
getting originally top ten buzz just for his ability as
a pass rusher. They take him in the second round
obviously drops due to the off field issues. But if
you have him playing and pairing him with the Daffejoway
and Mattabuke and Travis Chilms at all of these talented

(58:07):
members of their front, I mean, it's a defense that's
just relentless. I don't see a weakness truly, bringing in
jy R. Alexander as a veteran presence, a guy that
was just like a top of the league corner not
very long ago. If he stays healthy, I look at
this team and I'm like, what is the weakness? I
don't think there is one. What do you think about

(58:28):
the Ravens defense?

Speaker 1 (58:30):
Yeah, it's gross, right, it's insane, And they were playing
so well at the end of last year when they
kind of got pieces into different places. So there's obviously
that the loss of our Darius Washington until the middle
of the season is a tough one because he puts
the whole thing together, right, Like, at that point, you
could just put him and Starts at safety, move Kyle

(58:52):
Hamilton back to the Star and then keep Wiggins and
Humphrey at corner and then you have the best secondary
probably in the league arguably. But you know, it's a
little tougher when you don't have that other safety spot.
You can always sign a guy. But yeah, I mean,
the one thing that I thought they lacked was one

(59:13):
peer pass rushing edge. And and this is the defense
that doesn't necessarily need the size at edge as much
because they are our a three down team and they
use those those outside linebacker types, so when they really
want to defend heavy personnel groupings, those guys are never
gonna have to bump inside like a four down team would.
Uh So, so you can have that that speed, and
I think Green is just a perfect fit for them.

(59:35):
It's an it's a it's a it's questionable ethically, especially
in the in light of the Justin Tucker stuff that
they're dealing with. I think that they need to be
They should have been a lot more sensitive to that.
But this is not how NFL teams run, unfortunately, So
you know, we have to deal and and comment on
the realities as they are. So I think from a
football perspective, that is that is is that he and

(59:59):
Star are the two missing pieces to a complete truly elite, elite,
elite defense. But you know, we'll see I think that
you know, if Green, and hypothetically, if Green isn't great,
then I think that they need more on the edge.
I think that obviously he's a rookie, so you don't know.

(01:00:20):
So that's still technically an unanswered question because they just
don't have any juice on the edge as far as
pass rushing goes. But they push pockets and they scheme
up pressure and they do and they cover well. So
that's enough and that has been enough for them. They
had the best defense in the league two years ago,
so you know, we'll see how that goes. I don't

(01:00:40):
really see too many weaknesses, and I think that they
can really do a lot of the stuff that they
want to do. But you know, I think injuries could
potentially cause them some problems on the back end. If
we're looking for things that can get them in trouble.

Speaker 2 (01:00:54):
Yeah, if there's any reliance on Jay, you're Alexander, you
worry about if he's going to be able to stay
on the field, or would Sie you know, who's had
injury problems in the past. I like your point about
it too, because they were it felt like a team
that always had an imposing d line, but it wasn't
like the most productive when it came to pass rush,
like they didn't have that, like Alpha Eliga guy. I
really like adaf Alway, but like when you compare him

(01:01:16):
to like Trey Hendrickson or like some of the other
class like TJ. Watt, I don't put him in that tier.
I think Mike Green again, just speaking purely from a
football perspective, because I agree with you on the off
the field stuff and it's why he felt to where
he fell, to a point where I thought he wasn't
going to get drafted. But when we talk about him
purely as a pass rusher, I mean the upside for
him was just pure speed, explosion off the edge. And

(01:01:37):
if they have a guy to do that now, I mean,
I don't know how you can feasibly go up against
the Ravens defense and put anything close to like what
you saw. I don't know the Bengals do last year
to them, where it was just a shootout. I mean,
every every team's gonna have its day. Everybody gets god
every once in a while, but it's so loaded and
it's also got the death too. It's not a top

(01:01:58):
end team where it's like there's no one to wrote hated.
I mean they also took Anias Peebles, who had great
pass rush productivity. I know he's a bit undersized, but
if this is a.

Speaker 1 (01:02:06):
Rotation relational guy, right exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:02:08):
Exactly, like a perfect rotational like probably three tech for them.
I mean low center of gravity, could probably play one
tech if he's in a rotational role. But like, if
this guy is coming in as a pure pass rusher, like,
come on, man, that's not even fair. And like I
even see some of the other players they have like
deep in their lineup too, and talking about their linebackers,
like Trenton Simpson was someone I really liked for the

(01:02:30):
Bills a couple of years ago. I think his speed
when you talk about him as a blitzer, but also encoverage,
the athleticism he plays with. He is a very fluid,
athletic guy that I think if you're talking dropping him,
especially if he's just playing as like a weak side guy,
he's awesome. But again, ro kwand Smith one of the
best linebackers in the league. Kyle van Ney emerged as
an amazing pass rush threat for them, and now he's

(01:02:51):
complimenting a d line that might have just improved. Like
it's just good luck facing the Ravens defense. It's it's
one that I think even if they stick to their guns,
schematically can go to totel with anybody is going to
give anyone fits. I'm very excited to see their matchup,
not just with us as a football fan, but like
against Kansas City and against the division, just because I

(01:03:12):
want to see if there is really a team that
can exploit them, because if no one can, like we
might be seeing another situation where this is the one
seed and the championship goes through Baltimore that year. Because
it's so talented, I think Or is emerging as a
very good defensive coordinator for the group too. I got
nothing negative to say about it, man, It's a group that, like, yes,

(01:03:32):
you could find something to say, like, well, if Mike
Green doesn't pan out, or if Malachi starts as growing pains,
or with Washington's injury or injuries to their secondary, it's
going to have faults. But at the surface, looking at
on paper, I'm just like it it's gonna be a
tough out for anyone in this league and we'll just
have to see what happens. But Max, any final thoughts
on this Ravens defense before we move on to another

(01:03:53):
AFC North team. That's polarizing. I guess it's the right word.

Speaker 1 (01:03:57):
Yeah, No, like you said, I mean, the Bengals were
able to get to them because Burrow played two of
the best games of the season of anybody, especially in
the second one when he was pressured like on like
fifty percent of his shropbacks I think, yes, like it
was high forties if I remember correctly, It still dropped
four hundred and four touchdowns just because he was just
doing insane stuff in the pocket, and Jamar Chase went

(01:04:18):
nuclear both games. So you know, that's that's what it takes.
That's what it takes. And it's just and they're gonna
be better. They're so much better defensively next year and
at the end of last year than they were during
those two games. So that makes me certainly nervous. I
just at a certain point where I just don't even
have any hope necessarily that the Bengals are going to

(01:04:40):
win this division. And that doesn't And again I just
made the case for the Bengals probably winning eleven to
twelve games next year just on how they are as
a team. It's not gonna be enough.

Speaker 2 (01:04:51):
Yeah, it's again anything can happen in that division. That's
why it's the Wild West, because it's even though it's
anoint probably a bad metaphor, but we're still going to
go with it, like anything could happen. These teams have
matched up with each other so many times to a
point where it's just a constant chess match, and I
do believe that, Like I don't think there's gonna be
a team in this division that goes undefeated against their opponents.

(01:05:13):
Just winning record probably the best case afford to probably
the highest. But the Ravens are just that it stares
to lose, and the only way I see them truly
losing it is with injuries, because I think there's just
simply too much talent. But in the case of the Bengals,
with how Joe Burrow played against them, anything's possible because
those two games he played, I mean, the shootout he
had in Baltimore was one of the best games I've

(01:05:33):
seen in recent memory. I mean, and as a Jamar
Chase Fantasy owner that year, that was pretty nice.

Speaker 1 (01:05:38):
But yeah, it was it was decent good.

Speaker 2 (01:05:42):
Yes, But I want to move on now to the
Pittsburgh Steelers. I call them polarizing because I just don't know.
I don't know what the hell they're doing on offense.
I'm gonna be transparent, especially because I really bought into
a DK Metcalf George Pickens, drafting Caleb Johnson, even though
Caleb Johnson came later, but like, thinking about it now,
Caleb Johnson in the backfield when you have Jalen Warren

(01:06:03):
an offensive line that's pretty good at blocking downhill, and
then you talk about Friarmuth Washington is an ancillary piece.
Like I was seeing the vision for an Arthur Smith
offense with Aaron Rodgers, with that group of guys, giving
up Pickens now to go to Dallas and kind of
making this receiving corps with through DK, who I really
like as a receiver, was just questionable to me because

(01:06:24):
they're coming off a year they finished twenty first and
EPA per play they were twentieth in the past and
twenty fifth in the rush. I think the rushing offense
is going to improve. I think removing Najee Harris, replacing
him with Caleb Johnson, who I think has more dynamic
ability and a younger player, someone that I think is
going to do fair pretty well. There, especially in tandem
with Jalen Warren home run hitting ability. I like that group,

(01:06:46):
but I just don't know if bringing in Aaron Rodgers
to that situation and having him with one really And
I want to say this, like, because it's not trying
to disrespect Calvin Austin and Roman Wilson, but like a
proven vile target, I just don't know what that looks
like for them. And I feel like when we just
talked about what a Raven's defense could potentially look like,

(01:07:06):
a full health even Bengals with a pass rush that
they could have, and Aaron Rodgers kind of as he
gets older, growing a bit more skittish in the pocket, like,
did you do enough to really make yourself have any
presence or threat as a contender in this division? And Max,
I'll turn it back to you. What do you think
about the Steelers offense this year?

Speaker 1 (01:07:24):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:07:24):
I don't.

Speaker 1 (01:07:25):
I don't get it. I don't think this. I don't
think any of it makes sense together if we're being
totally honest, And I think the Aaron Rodgers of it
all makes that so much worse. Even I do understand
the Pickens trade because Pickens and Metcalf are so redundant
that like they both really only do one thing. Well,
just stretch the field from the X that like you

(01:07:46):
can't put one of them in another role because they're
gonna be really really bad at it, And so at
that point you basically have like and then it's and
then you have the fact that they're just their personalities
are are so big, and it's it's a lot. But
at the same time, and like you can also make
that from an asset management argument that George Pickens is
just a much more DK Metcalf is now a much

(01:08:07):
more expensive version of George Pickens, which I think is
a pretty good argument because he costs so much money. However,
you can get it if you can get it under
the cap for this one year. They're just going year
by year at this point, so it's there's no like
cap concerns beyond what's cap compliant in a given year.
And so you know, by that reasoning, go for it,
I guess, especially since I don't think they really ever

(01:08:31):
wanted to extend to George Pickens. I just I don't
think that that's something they were ever gonna do, So
you know, I get it. But at the same time,
these pieces just don't make sense together. This is an
offense that is built in its best in its best form,
to get under center, to get into twelve and thirteen personnel,
to run the hell out of the football like the
Arthur Smith offenses did in Tennessee. And as a passing game,

(01:08:56):
it's a lot of you know, play action over the
middle of the field, like your glances, your your cross ors,
your deep digs, all that stuff that they would always
hit with A. J. Brown and Corey Davis on hard
heavy play action. Not a lot of the not a
lot in the gun, not a lot of eleven personnel,
a fair amount of motion and dressing stuff up in
the run game, you know under center eighty percent is certain,

(01:09:20):
and that's a little much, but like a lot of
the time, a clear majority of the time. Does any
of that sound like what Aaron Rodgers wants to do?
You know, not even close. So Aaron Rodgers can talk
about how all in he is on the Steelers, how
you know much of a good teammate he's gonna be,
But do you really believe it? I certainly don't, uh
I and and and even if we do, like there's

(01:09:44):
gonna be some degree of compromise, and I don't. I
think Arthur Smith is Arthur Smith needs a very specific
type of offense to be successful. I think he struggled
to adapt in a lot of cases. And you know,
they built the off of line a certain way that
is kind of built for this. I'm excited about Mason
McCormick in year two on the interior. I'm excited about

(01:10:07):
them finally getting to get Troy font New on the field.
He's so good potentially at least we haven't really seen him,
especially as a run blocker, and so I like that.
I love Darneld Washington as a blocker. Connor Hayward's solid fullback,
so they have the auxiliary guys, and DK Metcalf's a
great vertical threat on play action. So I think that

(01:10:29):
that all makes sense. But like, how do you square
that with what Aaron Rodgers is going to want to do,
which is to get an eleven personnel, be in the gun,
be static, not motion, have full control of protections, run
a ton of quick game and and that kind of stuff.
And honestly, really Mike McCarthy's stuff, which is it's so

(01:10:49):
funny that he and McCarthy feuded because all he's been
trying to do since is run Micha McCarthy's offense again.
It's what he loves, like he would have loved being
in Dallas last year's with what they were doing with Dak.
So that doesn't fit with Arthur Smith. It doesn't fit
with their players because they only have one receiver that's
really viable right now, and he is a pure outside

(01:11:10):
vertical threat. So they don't have anybody to work the
underneath and intermediate zones consistently and be that volume driving
slot guy or in the case of DeVante Adams, that
volume driving move him around and throwing the ball all
the time guy. They don't have that. So I just
don't get it unless he's really willing to do the
Arthur Smith thing, get under center and play like Ryan Tannehill,

(01:11:32):
which he's you know, he's kind of like a border
collie in a lot of cases, like I've called Joe
Burrow and Patrick Mahomes border collies too. But like if
you just kind of have him sit in the apartment
and be bored, like he's gonna start to he's gonna
get go crazy. He's not. His mind isn't built for that.
Like he wants it to be hard, and not just
for the challenge, but because he has the capacity as

(01:11:55):
an operator and a processor the same way all these
other truly elite drawback past do to have that level
of control, and those guys when they don't have it,
they just don't love being on offenses like that. Like
Joe Burrow would hate playing for Kyle Shanahan, Patrick Mahomes
would hate playing for Kyle Shanahan. Peyton Manning would have
hated it, Tom Brady would have hated it. Allen right, well,

(01:12:17):
I actually think Josh Allen would be pretty good at it,
just because I think that so much of him as
this pure playmaker, Like I think he's just brock purty
on like a ton of steroids with what he is
as far as athletic gifts. But like Allan is really
good at the line at this point in his career.

Speaker 2 (01:12:34):
I just think he would get bored.

Speaker 1 (01:12:36):
Yeah, I mean, like he'd get bored if he can't
leave structure and he you know, I don't think Shannonhans
this is kind of a tangent. I don't think Shanahan's
huge problem with that. I think Shannonhan's a huge problem
with people fucking with timing in structure, and that's what
these guys really like to do, and changing their reads
and changing the order of their reads based on what
they're gonna do. So Aaron Rodgers is not He's again,

(01:13:00):
he's a border colleague cooped up in an apartment in
an offense that's just you know, a ton of play action.
He's just going to get bored and he's not going
to like it.

Speaker 2 (01:13:09):
That's such a good point, and I mean, you saw
it last year with the Jets, and I almost wonder
if that's why the Nate Hackett pairing was so enticing
with him over the past couple of seasons, because Hackett
would just cave into.

Speaker 1 (01:13:19):
That and also where he wants he was. Aaron Rodgers
was the offensive coordinator of the Jets.

Speaker 2 (01:13:23):
But also too like Hackett, as an offensive coordinator is
also just not the most imaginative, being nice like it's
it's a very static, like basic, kind of poorly managed
offense when you hear some of the stories that came
out of that building, and it's like for that reason,
I could see why the pairing was so desired. And
now you have Arthur Smith who wants to run it
his way, and I mean, like he's he's a detailed guy,

(01:13:46):
and he's a very I'll give him this, he's a
creative guy, especially with how he scheps certain people open
that you're not expecting to actually be a pass catcher.
I mean in Atlanta, you were looking at everybody but
Kyle Pitts getting a football, and I feel like in
Pittsburgh it's going to be kind of a similar situation
where we're going to see like Scottie Miller getting some
work down the boundary. But that's also because they kind
of have to because outside of Calvin Austin and DK Metcalf,

(01:14:07):
who the hell else are you asking to roam the
boundary besides maybe like a Roman Wilson. But also like,
is Roman Wilson going to emerge as kind of a
true slot option this year? And is that where the quick.

Speaker 1 (01:14:16):
Game they need that so desperately. I don't know. I
didn't love that prospect.

Speaker 2 (01:14:21):
Yeah, I mean Roman Wilson. I liked him because he
felt like more of a like a he's a run
blocking a willing run blocker, and like he's one hundred
percent effort in every play he has, which I think
gives him some credit, but also like, how effective is
he going to be if you're asking him to kind
of match up against someone in man coverage and go
down the field. Can he separate consistently? Is his route
stunm going to get interrupted? Those things? I was like,

(01:14:43):
he probably better suited as a slot and I think
he can be. But also you bring in Robert Woods,
but Robert Woods is longer in the tooth. He's not
the same player he once was. I love Robert Woods
as a Bills fan who's watched him leave the team
and go to better pastors back in the drought era.
But it wasn't his fault. I'm happy for him. I
do think now it's kind of it's used parts. It

(01:15:04):
feels like you went thrift shopping in this offense, and
I think that when you talk about long term projections
for the Steelers, it doesn't really exist here outside of
a couple of players and kind of feels more like
a patchwork offense while you try to build the real thing.
Maybe next year when you have an abundance of quarterbacks
coming out and you might be able to make a
move to go up and get one and maybe become
a bit more threatening. Maybe retool it with a new OC.

(01:15:25):
If you don't think Arthur Spit is the guy to
pair with them, this feels like a transitional offensive year
for that man. It sucks because there is talent there.
Like again you talk about the offensive line. I really
like Zach Frazier their center. Oh yeah, someone actually him
fallt the new as you pointed out, se you mollow,
Like there's pieces there that I think like you'll build
around them and you'll have sustained success on their offensive line.

(01:15:48):
But it just doesn't feel like you're going to get
crazy output. And if Aaron Rodgers is trying to command
it into like a very vanilla eleven personnel quick timing offense,
like what's that going to do for you in this division?
Because even every team, it's not even just like teams
are gonna see just in your division, like all over
the league, it's just predictable. I mean, teams could just

(01:16:09):
drop into coverage and you know, rush four, and like
even if you're not really really getting too much pass
rous threat with four, if Aaron Rodgers isn't trying to
consistently air it out down the field, then just contain
and fly to the ball. And that's it, and you'll
bleed clock and you'll die towards the red zone. Maybe
you get a few field goals, and then you get

(01:16:30):
kind of low scoring games, which seems to be the
emo of this offense. I just it didn't feel like
they did enough. I don't know if this year was
the projected plan. I also like, I feel bad for
Mike Tomlin because I think the discourse around Mike Tomlin
has been heavily clouded by the fact that a post
Ben Roethlisberger Steelers offense has kind of looked the same
every single year and been consistently underwhelming. And I think

(01:16:51):
that he is a great coach that just needs to
get someone who is running this offense effectively with young
talent that is actually explosive, which is than possible, but
they've made it seem that way. I just I don't
like how it's constructed. I don't think it's the long
term answer. I think they have pieces to build around,
but ultimately I think it's just let's ride this year
out and try to do it next year when there's

(01:17:12):
more talent in the draft and we could probably do
more in free agency or just find receivers and hopefully
we can build this thing with a little more of
a dynamic component going forward. I mean, do you have
any other thoughts on this, Max before we go to
their defense?

Speaker 1 (01:17:25):
Yeah, I mean, I think the gambit for them is
just to get from one of the worst offenses in
the league to like seventeenth, and but I really just
think that that's like a difference of maybe a winner
two And I think that, you know, it's if the
Bengals are even slightly better, then that's that's tough. And
you know, it's are they probably gonna win nine games

(01:17:48):
and threaten the playoffs? Yeah, because you know, we've said
they wouldn't the last three years and they have, so
that just is what it is. But at the same time,
you know, I'm not I'm not really expecting it, right,
I mean, I just don't think they're that good. Maybe
maybe they get something and it's and Aaron Rodgers just
enough of an upgrade over the complete vacuum that they've had.

(01:18:12):
And they are frustrating and bad, but good enough that
their defense can carry them the tenel of winds. But
they really just have no ceiling. I don't understand what
the path contention is here.

Speaker 2 (01:18:21):
Yeah, I'll say this too, I mean, and it was
a worse offensive line, although they did try structuring it
to be good, but it just didn't live up to
the height. But with the Jets last year, I mean,
they couldn't lean on a Breisee Hall running attack, and
it was a very predictable running attack. And I think,
like with the Steelers this year, it will be a
bit more complex. I think they are going to window
dress things a little bit more, and I think they

(01:18:42):
have a substantially better offensive line to work with this season.
But even then, like Caleb Johnson, I really like Jalen Warren,
I really like, But is that going to be enough
where Aaron Rodgers can ride on the coketails of a
successful rushing attack to a point where the quick game
works because he's consistently getting short yardage situations and that's
where he can shine. But that's also a lot of

(01:19:02):
work to put into an offense and a lot of
things to ask of them to be consistently great, Like
and you're gonna meet your match when you face really talented, penetrated,
penetrating fronts which you have in your own division. So like, yeah,
I'm not bullish on their offense. I feel like it's
gonna be an average unit at best. Maybe they prove
us wrong and it exceeds expectations. Maybe there's a positive

(01:19:22):
development from Roman Wilson, or maybe really immediate impact from
Caleb Johnson to a point where he is this dynamic
back like top of the league, in the rookie in
the rookie class, and all of a sudden, they're a
real threat on the ground and Rogers lives off that.
But I have to see that to believe it. Right now,
I don't moving on to their defense, I am a
lot more optimistic. I mean adding a Derek Harmon. I

(01:19:43):
absolutely loved Derek Harmon in this process. I mocked into
the Bills a few times. I really like the player. Again,
when you talk about violent, disruptor, havoc creator, he is that.
And just adding him to a defensive line that already
had another player I really loved a few years ago
in Kean U Benten and Cameron Hayward and obviously TJ.
Watt one of the best pass rushers in the league.
You could argue the best. You have an abundance of

(01:20:05):
death there. Like the front is great, their linebacking group.
I really like that they took Peyton Wilson, who I
think is an extremely talented linebacker, pairing him with Patrick Queen,
who out of Baltimore hasn't been as dynamic of a player,
but I still think is quite talented. And then the
secondary Minka is still there. Porter Junior is an emerging
young talent, a really Darius Slay, who might be a

(01:20:26):
veteran I still think is a great complimentary piece. And
also just when you talk about the Steelers always having
a nasty factor to their defense, he adds that, so
there's juice there along with the physicality. He plays with
and still has some juice in the tank. I mean,
your thoughts on this defense what it could bring for
them this upcoming season, Yeah, I.

Speaker 1 (01:20:44):
Mean it should be really good, right. I certainly have
concerns about the back end, and I think that that's
just been a consistent issue for them where they have
a very good defense, but like they have two thirds
of a top three defense, and the back end just
puts a lid on them and what they can achieve.
I don't think that issue is going away. I still

(01:21:05):
think they have guys make if fitz Patrick's obviously a
superstar in future Hall of Famer, but like they haven't
gotten as much out of Joey Porter Junior as they
as they had hoped. We'll see what Darius Slay is
at this point in his career. If he gives him
one good, one solid year, then I think that's a huge,

(01:21:26):
huge upgrade. So they just need to get to average
in the secondary because the front is elite. It's it's
it's ill there will see what you know. Cameron Hayward's
you know, year by year at this point just given
how old he was, but how old he is, but
he was insane last year again, so he could be
he could have one more year in him. I think

(01:21:46):
if he if he falls off the cliff, then they
have serious problems potentially. But I agree Derek Harmon's a
stud and Keanu Benton is a solid player, so you
know you have a succession plan. I just think that
like the three of them on that interior with with Harmon,
Benton and and Hayward in their three down front is

(01:22:08):
like I think that they need that to hit what
it can be, which is if if Hayward does one
last ride in him and Harmon is what I also
think he's gonna be. I loved him as well. Then
that's gonna be with Watt, who of course they're gonna
get done is they're not the Bengals. This isn't gonna
be a that's that's a front four. That's just insane.

(01:22:34):
Right when you're when you get your nickel packages and
you're in a four four cross. Look when you're in
base and you're you know, three down with those two
outside linebackers. You get Alex high Smith out there, who
is himself just stud Like he always pops on tape
when I watched the Steelers, he's he always pops on
tape against Bengals. He's a huge He's been a huge issue,
uh for for us. He's a great, great pass rusher,

(01:22:58):
not just to compliment Watt, but in his own right.
He was extended a couple of years ago and that
was a great deal. That looks like a steal right
now because he's a legitimate volume pass rusher who can produce.
He's not, you know, one of the tops of the league,
but like as far as those next few tiers, like,
he's a legitimate producer in the in the pass rush.

(01:23:20):
So like that's another serious player, and I mean, they
can't even get Nick Krbig on the field consistently in
a in an every down role, and he is a
player with serious juice and so when you start to
get into the the third down stuff that they can
get into, it's really nasty with with what with high Smith.

(01:23:41):
With Benton, you can you know, load manage Hayward a
little bit on in some situations. Uh, but you know
he can rush the past obviously as well. So that's
just that's just a group of of of quarterback hunters
up there. And of course run Stuffer is if they
can get that front three to be I think it's
going to be. So that's that's just a difficult front

(01:24:03):
to deal with. And like you said, I like Peyton
Wilson a lot too. I think he's going to take
a step, He's going to continue to grow as he
did last year. And it's just it's it's one of
the best fronts in the league, and they really know
how to play it. They've been so consistent with how
they designed this system and how they identify guys and
how they fit to it. Like we were talking about earlier,
I mean, this is kind of a great example with

(01:24:23):
what they look for upfront with guys like Hayward way
back in the day. It's still the same defense with
guys like with guys like Watt, and then a guy
like Highsmith, who's the high Smith, who's the exact same
archetype and skill set, who is fitting well, and then
a guy like like Benton to play the nose like
they've crushed it. They've crushed it because they know exactly
what they're looking for and they know how to find it,

(01:24:44):
and they know how to teach it. That's a replicable
formula and they've nailed it. So they're going to continue
to be nasty, especially for teams like the Bengals who
don't have good interiors. That's that's why the Steelers are
such a pain in the ass for Cincinnati because like,
the pockets just get crushed from the inside of burrows
like that. It's even really good pass rushes give the

(01:25:08):
Bengals less trouble than the Steelers.

Speaker 2 (01:25:11):
Yeah, it's collapsing the pocket. It's forcing you to hurry up,
go up tempo. And unfortunately, if I had to say,
where you're going to exploit burrow is if you're making
them uncomfortable in the pocket and having to speed up
Obviously accuracy ken suffer. Obviously vision of the field can suffer,
and you could lead to turnovers or just mix missed
assignments execution errors. And the Steelers do that to everybody.

(01:25:32):
I mean when they are healthy, and it's really when TJ.
Watt is healthy, because I still think they're very talented
d line, but TJ. Watt as that end piece who
is just again a prolific pass rusher. He individually, despite
the talent, also carries them to a new level, to
a point where they are just one of the most
stubborn and difficult fronts to deal with in the NFL
consistently year in and year out. That just got in

(01:25:53):
my opinion better because what I love about starting with
the front and specifically Derek Harmon, that addition for the
Steelers is you already had the ability to kind of
play sound run defense and hold your point of attack,
you know, good gap integrity. That's just something that they
instill for the Steelers in general for as long as
Mike Tomlin has been there. But I think when I
love Derek Harmon's projection if he went to the Bills

(01:26:15):
was even though he's not a true one tech profile
like you could slot the more as a three attack. Again,
it's all fluid, but like if you want to talk
about frame and what he was at Oregon, I still
believed in him as like that Bill's one tech role
because I thought he had the strength to hold his
own against doubles. It wasn't consistent, but I could see
the vision of it developing. But the pass rushing prowess
was really what sold me on third down in a

(01:26:36):
true pass rush situation, whether it's third and five, third
and long, however you want to call it, He's the
guy that I want to unleash because I know he's
going to generate pressure. Now imagine taking that and now
putting him in this scheme, this defense where he's unlocked
to just be that he will be defending the run.
But when you have that like stability in Keanu Beten
to fortify that interior. When you have Cameron Hayward, who

(01:26:58):
even if he is a VET, you're probably we're going
to see a healthy rotation, and Heyward still has juice
in the tank. Hartman could just be unleashed in a
very limited but effective role to start in his rookie year,
and I think that's going to pay dividends for the
Steelers defense even if TJ. Watt has to cycle in
and now due to injury, just because again it's not
like they don't have other pass rushing options to fill

(01:27:19):
in the Boid if he has to miss a couple
of games, which unfortunately seems like something that's going to
consistently happen. He's one of those really talented ed rushers
that just unfortunately, due to physique and grinding in the gym,
will somehow strain a muscle during the year. Happens to Bosa,
it happens to Hendrickson, It's just a seemingly recurring trend
for pass rushers. Happened to TJ. Watt, or I'm sorry

(01:27:41):
JJ Watt happening the same way. It's just getting older.
But I think now what they've done is really built
this front up with a lot of depth to a
point where I think the drop off will be as
damning if it's only for short term. And Derek Carmon
is just an awesome piece to have there. I mean,
and you talked about Nick Caribig, who I love is
a rotational pass rusher, has flashed consistently as one, and

(01:28:03):
I think now you make his role a little bit
better and a little bit more effective if you don't
have want long term, just because again that presence, if
you can get the other guys of this line to
stay healthy, is just now aided by enough of a
floor where he can shine more consistently as a pass rusher.
So the front of the Steelers is never the concern.
They are at their healthy. They are going to be

(01:28:24):
in every single game. They're going to give every team fits.
And it's individually a unit that I think carries them
to that nine and eight record every year because Tom
Win coaches them up. They play with the nasty factor.
They're just menaces. They get into the backfield, they generate
pressure consistently. It's really just even if you have concerns
kind of like we talked about earlier with Cincinnati about
the secondary and some of the members, whether it's well,

(01:28:46):
Darius Slay's older and he's not playing at the same
click like we hoped. He came to this defense and
he didn't really deliver like he did in Philadelphia. If
you're worried about Trice as a backup and he's just
not panning out, Beanie Bishop not slotting as a slot corner.
Then I still think they're gonna offset it by just
having enough pressure consistently up front where even if it's
not as sound in coverage, if there's a blown assignment,

(01:29:08):
you're not gonna see it like you you just won't
read it consistently. You're just gonna be submerged in a
in a sea of dudes to a point where it's
you're gonna either have to get that ball out of
your hands quickly, you're gonna have to leave the pocket
and hope you can go off script, or you're gonna
take a sack. And that's just how they beat you.
And it's what makes them so good when they're healthy
and why I'm not bullish on the offense for the Steelers,

(01:29:29):
but praise this defense just because of that front alone,
and I'll turn.

Speaker 1 (01:29:33):
Yeah, final, that's hard to play against. Right, Like they're
they're they're they're like they're kind of like the Carolina
Hurricanes of except they're not as good, but like they're
they're just they're gonna go in and they're just gonna
run you up and down the ice and they're gonna
they're gonna hit you. They're gonna for check you. They're
gonna be on every puck and by the end of
that game, no matter how much more talented than them

(01:29:55):
you are, you weren't just exhausted and you are bruised
and you're tired and you've maybe barely won or you
lost because they dragged the game into the mud. It's
what their identity is, and I think it's to their
detriment as far as Steiling goes. But the fact of
the matter is, like when they had a quarterback they

(01:30:16):
were This made them one of the best franchises in
the NFL because they were combining this with a legitimate
quarterback and a consistently above average offense that at times
was even elite but mostly wasn't. Like when they were
winning Super Bowls, it was fine, right, but like they
combined a top twelve to fifteen offense with a defense

(01:30:41):
that is just coined. It, no matter who you are,
is going to take you all twelve rounds and it's
going to bloody your eye and you just you just
don't want to deal with it.

Speaker 2 (01:30:51):
It's funny you bring up the Carolina Hurricanes too, because, like,
if you want to talk about the Achilles heel for
the Hurricanes, it's usually goaltending. So we could just call
the Steelers offense goaltending because.

Speaker 1 (01:31:00):
It's like you have no high end finishers.

Speaker 2 (01:31:03):
No, I mean yeah, yeah, because like I love as
a player, I love Setchnikov, but like, yeah, it's like they're.

Speaker 1 (01:31:11):
Just like I wanted so much more out of him
for years.

Speaker 2 (01:31:14):
Yeah, I thought it's also especially in the playoffs guy. Yeah,
I mean there are plenty of other players that you
kind of see that offensive output from, and they had
similar track records when they first came into the league,
and he just kind of stayed at like he's always
been like, in my eyes, like a super high four guy. Yeah,
which is like still really good. But like that's the
thing the Carolina Hurricanes. I love that we just got

(01:31:34):
into this conversation like they're a bunch of gears turning
but doesn't feel like they have the true individual separator.
And like with the Steelers, defensively, I think they have superstars,
but talking about their offense, if you talk about it
being their goaltender, like that's what holds the Hurricanes back
every year is they play such relentless defense. They're so physical,
but they just have soft goaltending and it gets by them.

(01:31:54):
And now you're talking about a Steelers, a Steelers offense
that I think that's the Achilles heel. It's going to
hold them. And you talked about it like their philosophy
has been like we build this bully of a defense
that's relentless and menacing aggressive. It's going to create having
it's going to generate better field position opportunities for us.
Whether we win or lose. It's going to be a
low scoring, ugly game. It doesn't have to be that way.

(01:32:15):
And that's what gets me the most annoyed, just as
a fan of football watching good teams like this offense
doesn't have to be this way. It doesn't have I mean,
it's hard to find quarterbacks in the NFL. I'm not
saying they grow on trees. Trust me, as a Bills fan,
we went through years of quarterback purgatory. But they have
an opportunity, I think, in this upcoming draft to like
actually fully see this thing through on offense. If they

(01:32:37):
can go get someone in the top ten. I'm not
saying be bad enough to get there, but just make
the trades and get up. This is a team that
once they put that back together, if this defensive structure
stays the same. And I see it because there is
a lot of young talent there, even with eventual departures
of like Hayword and you know, even TJ. Watt in
a couple of years. I think that just the philosophy
they have on defense, paired with finally finding another talent

(01:33:00):
in a draft that's better than the ceiling of a
forty one year old Aaron Rodgers or Will Howard and
Mason Rudolph, they will be back to the premiere. I
just don't think it's going to be this season. I
see another like nine to eight, ten and seven from them,
which still knocking on the door of playoffs, but kind
of limited, like we get to the first round and
we know what's gonna happen. Thing again, only because I
just don't see right now on paper what takes them

(01:33:24):
above the Ravens or what takes them above the Bengals.

Speaker 1 (01:33:26):
But yeah, nothing that.

Speaker 2 (01:33:28):
Isn't just an injury. And again I say these things
not to slight teams. It's just how I view it,
Like I'm a very like I try to be objective here,
but it's just it doesn't instill a lot of confidence.
And speaking of not instilling confidence. Let's talk about the
Cleveland Browns. And the Cleveland Browns last season offense thirty
second in EPA per play because they were thirty second

(01:33:48):
in passing EPA, but they were sixteen.

Speaker 1 (01:33:50):
That's higher than I expected.

Speaker 2 (01:33:52):
Oh yeah, yeah, you thought what like thirty ninth, fortieth.

Speaker 1 (01:33:55):
Yeah, I thought the model would shut down.

Speaker 2 (01:34:00):
You can't stick to the model because it's dead. But
it was. It was.

Speaker 1 (01:34:05):
Oh.

Speaker 2 (01:34:05):
Man, Like the thing about Cleveland, their defensive numbers thirteenth
at DPA per play, there were fourteenth at passing EPA,
but twenty six and rushing. But their passing defense was
pretty good. And again you have I would argue the
best defensive player in football, and Miles Garrett. I think
Miles Garrett is just yeah, he.

Speaker 1 (01:34:21):
Might be the best player of football.

Speaker 2 (01:34:23):
Yeah, because like the and I'm just gonna take this
because like this episode will be on YouTube. I'm sure
Steelers fan will find it. And I have said not
great things about their team. And one of the debates
had been TJ. Watt versus Miles Garrett. To me, it's
just so small. Miles Garrett is all over the line
for them. Man, It's not just in one role. He's
as effective as he is as like an edge rusher

(01:34:45):
as he is on the interior. He can do anything,
and he does it to such a degree that it
lifts all the boats around him. But they also have
other talented players on this d line. I want to
flip this one and start because we're just talking about
their defense now. They drafted Mason Graham. I know they
traded out of the spot for Travis Hunter, but like,
tell me what you think is going to help them
be more competitive in the division right now given their

(01:35:08):
uncertain quarterback situation. Given the uncertainty, do you think it's
Travis Hunter where you are in a quarterback carousel and
you have no idea who's starting. Do you think it's
a really awesome, probably best in the Class three technique
that now gets to help Miles Garrett either move around
more freely or just maybe even maintain an edge role

(01:35:28):
and you can move other people around like in a
defense that butches the shit out of you. I really
really liked the way Cleveland drafted. I also really like
the fact that they took Carson Schweisinger, especially with ja
Okay having to miss the year and getting what I
thought was one of the best, if not the best
lineback well, actually no, not the best linebacker in the class,
but one of the best linebackers in the class. Again,

(01:35:49):
in a very pressure heavy defense. I think Cleveland, for
the defensive side of the ball, can be optimistic. I
think there is a lot to like about them. I
love Jim's Schwartz as a defensive coordinator. I love the
pressure he consistently generates. I love the fact that that
it's just even last season when you talked about like
how bad their offense was, they were losing close games,

(01:36:11):
I think the well just broke on them after a
certain point, because again, when you have Deshaun Watson who
has one shoulder throwing with the arm that has no shoulder,
and just the ball dying mid air and just not
having enough options having to turn to Jameis Winston for
a spark. It was fun. It wasn't sustainable, like the
defense is going to break at some point eventually. But

(01:36:32):
I really think that they have built something there that
can be competitive, not elite. Besides Miles Garrett and maybe
potentially Mason Graham. I don't think that they are going
to be the worst team in the NFL. I certainly
don't think they're going to win their division. But what
I do think they are going to be this year
if they have competent quarterback play with maybe if it's
Joe Flacco, if it's sad Or Sanders, Dylan Gabriel, is

(01:36:53):
a team that is going to be the thorn in
the side of every other team in this division. They
are going to be hard to play against. They are
not going to be a roll over and die kind
of team. They are a team that I think because
of the talent, because of the coaching, because of the
additions they made to their defense, if these do pan out,
I think they actually have potential to be a talented, fun, disruptive,

(01:37:14):
and turnover generating defense that ultimately can keep their heads
above the water by the end of the year. What
do you think about their defense.

Speaker 1 (01:37:21):
Max, I think Mason Graham fixes so many of their
problems with run defense immediately. I think that's kind of
his superpower. I think he's a nice penetrator and pass rusher,
but like just the way he controls space and controls
controls blockers and eats gaps is just like it's it's
so special. So I think that fixes a lot of
their problems right away. I think the defense is going

(01:37:44):
to be really good. I think they have a couple
holes on the back end, just as far as like
that that CB two spot isn't necessarily locked down yet.
I know they're they're they're kind of trying stuff there,
but I don't think they have like a great answer there.
And safety, you know, I like Grant to help it,
but he can't stay healthy, and the rest of it's

(01:38:05):
just like not great. But like you know, it's the
pairing of Miles Garrett and Mason Graham is again, like
you said, the potential to be just such a force
multiplayer for them. Uh Sweesssinger has so much pressure on
him right away, and and and adjusting as a cover
linebacker is one of the harder, harder things you can do.

(01:38:27):
So we'll see about that. Obviously, they need this defense
to be top five to ten if they want to
be even viable as a team. Uh So, I think
that there's I think that you know, that's that's just
gonna depend on a lot of things. I think they
have a lot of good players. I don't think they're
going to get there. I just think they have too
many holes. But they do have the chance the potential

(01:38:48):
to be fantastic, And like you said, Miles Garrett is
one of the greatest defensive players ever, I think at
this point, like I think, you know, it's weird that
we haven't really started the legacy talk with Miles Garrett yet,
But like, Miles Garrett is one of the greatest, is
one of the greatest footballers of all time. In my opinion,

(01:39:08):
it's such a shame that it's been so so wasted
in Cleveland. But like comparing Miles Garrett to it to
t J. Watts, so it's so ridiculous, Like it's it's
like having a conversation about Patrick Mahomes and Matthew Stafford,
Like let's let's please be serious here for a second.
He's on his own planet in in every conceivable way.

(01:39:31):
So you know, they're they're gonna be good. I think
they're gonna be pretty nasty on defense. On defense, especially
for teams with tackle issues like the if the Chiefs frints,
I don't know if they even play Kansas City. But
like teams like the Chiefs who have issues at tackle
are gonna have real problems with them just because like
it's it's it's hard to it's hard to deal with
Garrett period. But then you're gonna deal with interior pressure

(01:39:53):
as well. And when you're kind of when you're kind
of dealing with an ace interior rusher potentially combined with
an ace perime a rusher, you have serious problems because
you can't just you can't just gear your protections toward
toward one thing, right, Like you're not just gonna fan
out your protections and chip and you're not just gonna
squeeze stuff inside to deal with interior stuff. So it's

(01:40:15):
it's it's gonna be a nasty pass rush. I just
don't think they have the stability at all the spots
to be as good as they need to be on defense,
but they're gonna be really good.

Speaker 2 (01:40:27):
Well that's and I think it's more I'm speaking from
the lens too of like I know that this team
is not winning this division. I know that they're probably
going to be in the bottom half of the league.
I think it has more to do with the me
first off, just trying to instill some hope, but also
because I do genuinely believe in the front there building
that does have holes all over at certain positions, whether

(01:40:47):
you want to talk about opposite of Denzil award and
the safety if you are worried about Schweisinger immediately panning out. Also,
again like not having Jok is a huge blow. He's
a cornerstone of their defense. He's an extremely talented player.
I hope he comes back because I know it was
a neck issue. I also like the uncertainty around Michael
Hall Junior, and like, I know there was off field
things going on there, but I loved him as a

(01:41:08):
prospect and like I think he is an extremely disruptive
interior guy. So I think even if Mason Graham is
that guy, there is a rotational potential for him as
well if he stays there. Like I know they got
rid of Okuranquoll, but it's I think Jim Schwartz can
get pressure off in his first year. I not first year,
it with a newer group with some replacements, and I
think that that alone can make them more difficult to

(01:41:29):
play against. I think a lot about the weather factor too,
which we haven't really covered much in this episode, if
at all, but in the AFC North, like the home
field advantage you get when you play in Cleveland or
in Pittsburgh, or really any of these cities in the
winter months that can rain really heavy. If you're talking
about building up your trenches and building up your front
to be as effective at penetrating as possible, and I

(01:41:50):
think Cleveland does have an opportunity to be one of
those teams that can do it and really make noise
if they get those home field advantages and lake effects,
though is a real thing. You saw it last year.
It could happen for them too. It levels a playing
field when you're a bad team. I mean, it's just
it is a team that I view, in regards to
your division, as one that I think is going to

(01:42:13):
be again ugly football. But I don't think they get
blown out very often. I think they probably will have
their games where they just fall the hell off, and
it would probably be more to do with the offense
not living up to their end and kind of keeping
them in games and stringing them or hanging them out
to dry. But I think they are in the process
of building something there that can be a really solid

(01:42:35):
group for years to come. It's just a matter of
how they do in their future drafts. But this past draft,
I think they did pretty good, at least on the
defensive side of the ball. And again, when you have
Miles Garrett, you're gonna have productivity if he stays healthy.
With Mason Graham, I think that one two punch, that
combination is going to be incredibly effective. And just again
when you can move Miles Garrett around, like he's that

(01:42:55):
type of player that just elevates everybody, like this entire
division as stars, like on their D line to some degree,
Like you know, there's there's teams that are kind of
a sum of their parts, but I feel like we
could talk about every single team having like someone that's
just notable enough to be a game wrecker, and like
Cleveland is no exception, and I think that alone will
ovate them. So for their defense, it's kind of where

(01:43:16):
I leave it because I don't really have too much
else to add because again, like the holes they have,
it probably will set them back a little bit, But
will it be to a point where they're going to
get destroyed, I don't know. On the offensive side of
the ball, I mean, oh man, it's I really like
Jerry Judy. I've liked Jerry Judy since he got drafted.

(01:43:37):
I think Jerry Judy is a better receiver than he
got I don't want to say credit for but I
think he is a separator. I think he's a good
route runner. I think when he had volume come his
way when Jameis Winston took over, he was delivering what
I thought was always there and just never really tapped
into because the quarterback play he was around was very,

(01:43:58):
very bad. I think that if they go with Flacco,
if they go with honestly, really just him, I think
you're gonna see some productivity out of Jerry Judy. I
also really like Cedric Tillman, and I thought he had
a bunch of flashes last year as an all over
the field threat. Obviously Elijah Moore no longer there, but
you still have David and Joku, who is just one

(01:44:18):
of the best tight ends the league. I know you
did your threat tight ends that you had him at
number three, right.

Speaker 1 (01:44:24):
Yeah, we'll see where I have now. But I don't
think I don't think he certainly don't think he's any
worse of a player. He's a stud. I think somebody
needs to trade for him. So I got to get
him the hell out of there because he's such a
I mean, he's only making eleven million dollars this year,
which is crazy a good tight end, it's the tight
end surplus. But like he is to any team that

(01:44:48):
needs a tight end that can play the y, play
in line and catch the ball and not just catch
the bubble, flex around and play in space and run
routes and create after the catch and bale jitimate like
sustainable receiving threat. Not just the guy you know you
get the ball in his hands kind of guy, Like
that's certainly true, each great after the catch, but like

(01:45:09):
a guy who can really get open for you and
run routes and move the sticks. He got he got
to get him out of there. And there are so
many teams that need this guy. The Bengals could really
use him for starters as their starting tight end for
a year, and they have the cap space. I don't
think they would do that, but like, there are so
many teams that could use him. I mean, Philly has

(01:45:33):
god Hear and he's on a one year deal, but
or Joke is on a one year deal, so they
probably wouldn't trade got it and then trade for Ndjoku.
But like, I'm just trying to think of all these
teams that that are contenders that could use this guy.
The Commanders could use him. Oh, yeah, for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:45:53):
Even though zach Ertz had a career resurgence.

Speaker 1 (01:45:55):
Yeah, what like thirty eight? I mean, who knows.

Speaker 2 (01:46:00):
Yeah, he didn't play like he was thirty eight. I'll
tell you that much. He was very productive.

Speaker 1 (01:46:06):
Yeah, they could trade for him Buffalo. I don't know
what Buffalo's cap situation is, but they could use him
to pair with Dawson Knox if they really want to
get over the top. Kansas City could use him. They
don't have the cap at all, but just to pair
him with with Kelsey. It's somebody's got trade for him.

(01:46:29):
I can't watch him play in Cleveland again.

Speaker 2 (01:46:33):
He Yeah. I mean I appreciate who the.

Speaker 1 (01:46:37):
Good teams are right now, like all of them.

Speaker 2 (01:46:39):
Yeah, I mean you could say maybe La, did you
say La?

Speaker 1 (01:46:42):
Oh? They could. I don't know what their I don't
think their cap situe. I don't know what their cap situation.

Speaker 2 (01:46:46):
Is, right, Yeah, Oh my god. I've wanted I've wanted
to see them get like a truly top flight tight
end for a long time because like they haven't. They've
had good tight end play, but never like top of
the class tight end playing like imagine what McVay is
gonna do with someone like a Rock Bowers, like someone
who individually has block.

Speaker 1 (01:47:05):
And he's just gonna put him in the coup as spot.
That's what they try to do, and they can't move
him the coup outside, so it doesn't have to block
anymore because they can't keep getting him hurt.

Speaker 2 (01:47:13):
Yeah, that that worries me for him too, because he's
so talented, but he his body is just put through
the blender in a season and receiver it's like going
to boot camp. I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:47:24):
The Broncos probably have Russell Wilson money still, uh for
the next couple.

Speaker 2 (01:47:28):
I think they have it for like two more seasons.
I don't I don't remember. I'd have to look. But
their room just talking about their tight end room too.
Like I also love the fact that they drafted Harrold
Fan and Junior because like, if you're gonna build around
in Joku, I think with Fan and Junior, who, I
don't know what the hell he's gonna look like in
the NFL. Again, Like he was very productive in the MAC.
He was. He was an extremely talented prospect, but I

(01:47:50):
don't know if the frame holds up at the next level.
If he's truly like a blocking option, I think more
of like an ancillary piece too to Djoku. If you
go in twelve p where now maybe you have a joke,
go in line and new wide out fan and wide.
That could be a lot of fun and could be productive.
But it's gonna live and die with this quarterback situation.
I mean, Sean, it's gonna probably die. Unless Sanders actually

(01:48:13):
does emerge as this really nice prospect to start for
his rookie season. I really wish he didn't go there.
But again, I think Kevin Stefanski is a pretty good
pairing for him. Again, if you look at him as
a prospect, someone who I think is more of like
a better suited as a conventional pocket option in the NFL.
He can go off script, but I think where he
really shines is his quick reading, his accuracy, his quick timing,

(01:48:36):
his delivery. He's not someone that I think you're gonna
win with down the field, like a true three level threat.
But if you're putting him in a West Coast system
that's just asking him to get the ball out and
you're scheving people open, I think Stefanski can do that
for you. I think he can do it for Gabriel too,
to be honest with you, but I like Sanders more.
But if let's just say that quarterback situation isn't gonna
pan out, whether it's flack O, Pickett, Watson, whoever, then

(01:48:57):
it's all moot. But it sucks because like I look
at this step chart and there are options here where
I'm like, you get a good quarterback for these guys,
even above average one, And I think they could make
some noise. I mean, I like what they did with
their running back room, like Ford, Judkins and now Samson.
Adding in Judkins and Samson as the young dynamic back
duo could be a lot of fun for them. Their
online has always been very stable and consistent. But then

(01:49:19):
like Judy Tillman thrashes what we'll have to see, I
don't know what ends up happening with him. And then
Deontay Johnson who just admitted as a football player he
didn't want to play in the cold, but like it. Also,
I don't think the game he was describing was also
like crazy cold. Wasn't it like forty degrees or Something's.

Speaker 1 (01:49:40):
Gonna be a tough year for him. Yeah, that one's
gonna get cold up there.

Speaker 2 (01:49:46):
Yeah, it's gonna be colder, it's gonna be worse, like again,
lake effects, no sub zero temperatures, you're next to a
body of water. It's not getting better.

Speaker 1 (01:49:55):
But he needs to play against the Steelers defense in
fifteen degree weathering Cleveland, Like, you're not really not going
to like that at all.

Speaker 2 (01:50:04):
Or the Ravens who probably listen. I mean, it's not
that there's a bounty.

Speaker 1 (01:50:08):
On him, but oh yeah, yeah, yeah, he's not in.

Speaker 2 (01:50:12):
Your good graces for admitting he wouldn't come back into
a game because it was cold. Like that's bad, that's
just bad.

Speaker 1 (01:50:18):
Just why would you not if I ever, if I
ever like about anything, decided I don't want to do
it because it's cold, I should not be doing that thing.

Speaker 2 (01:50:29):
Yeah, Like, dude, I don't. I don't play in the NFL,
So I could admit to you when I don't want
to do something it's cold because it's not expected of
me to do something because it's cold.

Speaker 1 (01:50:37):
But also like like you know, like it's okay if
you don't, it's okay. Yeah, I'm not saying retirement is
a bad thing.

Speaker 2 (01:50:44):
Right, fine, and Max, if he just retired I think
everyone would have been like, oh okay, that was like
his Vonte Davis moment or like that.

Speaker 1 (01:50:51):
Was like or like what comes for everybody.

Speaker 2 (01:50:54):
Like Darren Waller just described like he lost it, you
know what I mean, Like he's like, it's cold, I
don't want to do this, I'm leaving. But no, you
you said it was cold, You took yourself out, said
you didn't want to put up bad film. Then you
signed with Cleveland where it gets colder, and now you
have two teams in your own division. Well, Bengals will
probably just dislike him because he played for them for
so we're played for rivals for a while. But now
you have two teams that you used to play for

(01:51:15):
that are snake bitten by you, and there's players that
know you on those teams have practiced against you and
probably don't like you very much for that very reason.
So I don't get that. But if let's just say
he does put in full effort for the Cleveland Browns,
it's not a bad option to pair with Jerry Judy
and Cedric Tillman. It's not a bad option to include

(01:51:38):
with those tight ends. It's not a bad option to
include with the running backs that they have. But again
to say all of this, this offense lives and dies
without the quarterback situation like anyone in the league, but
especially for them, where it's just a question mark. I
don't know what it'll be training camp quarterback battle is
going to be one that everyone watches, but like there's
no excitement for it, you know what I mean. Like
it's not like I don't know when Burrow was in

(01:51:59):
his rookie year or when Allen was in his rookie
year and it was like, well, we got this awesome
prospect that we know is going to be our starter,
but is he going to do it? Now it's it's
Joe Flacco, and it's Kenny Pickett, and like Dylan Gabriel
was taken in the third, third round, I believe and
should earn the fifth. Like these guys aren't guaranteed starters,
let alone guaranteed players in the NFL long term, Like

(01:52:21):
is this a battle we're going to be hyped for
or are we just hoping that truly the most average
player comes to light. And then if it's Joe Flacco,
then it's like woh, Like Joe Flacco, who is forty
years old just beat out two rookies and like he
had a very good year in limited games with them
a few years ago, then died out in the playoffs
and played demonstrably worse in Indye, Like, is it going

(01:52:43):
to be any better this year? It's hard to be
excited about this quarterback situation. And like the Steelers, I
think for Cleveland, it's a situation where it is we
are building something for the future, but this is not
our future offense Like next year, that draft with those
quarterbacks is what we're i and that is where we
could probably find a play like a like a playmaker

(01:53:04):
or someone who we can keep in structure, go off
script and we can trust. So I mean, Max, I've
rambled your thoughts on this offense before we wrap it up.

Speaker 1 (01:53:11):
Yeah, they're gonna be horrible. They're gonna be like they're
gonna be. They're probably gonna be thirty second again there there.
I don't think I don't think enough. I think some
people have talked about it. I don't think enough attention
is being given to the two how much their offensive
line might fall off Cliff this year. Those guys are
those guys are old and they were not very good
last year. And they're not getting better. They did not

(01:53:35):
inject a lot of youth into it, and all they're
proven really good names are are super old, and I think,
like you know, Jerry, look, Jerry Judy is a really
nice player in the role that they've they found him
in and they teams have tried to turn him into
a sloth for way too long. It's just not his game.
But like you know, and again, Joke is a great

(01:53:56):
player fan, and I think as a Kyle used check
type flex fullback is a nice piece. But like you're
just missing so many key elements. Like again, I think
their offensive line might be a disaster, and I think
that that will be horrible for their quarterbacks, especially Shador,
who you know is I mean, what's his big issue

(01:54:19):
has been pocket management as a player, So I think
that that's all that's a rough fit. I don't think
they're really gonna be able to run the ball just
because of how bad the offensive line is, even though
they've invested so much at the running back position. For
some reason, I don't I like, I like, I like
those guys, and I'm all four drafting running backs, but
do you really need two of them in zero offensive linement.

(01:54:41):
I thought that was weird. Uh, you know, I I
think Cedra Tillman is like a solid number three. I
don't think Deontay Johnson is going to make it through
the year. It's like if he's if he's doing stuff
like that, like a season in the AFC North with
a team bad as Cleveland is not, that's gonna be

(01:55:03):
the thing that gets you into retirement. So I don't
think that's gonna be super viable. They're gonna be really, really,
really rough, and I think that they're just gonna have
to eat their medicine until until the Deshaun Watson contractors
off the books, or until they until they offer ramp
to a high end rookie quarterback, which I think is

(01:55:25):
gonna be hard in large part because of that Shaun
Watson contract. It's gonna be hard to fill around them.
So they're in a bad way. And they they made
a deal with the Devil to trade for Deshaun Watson.
They got absolutely less than nothing for it, as they
deserve to. But like they're they're just they're they're just
cooked until that's off the books. That's just the reality

(01:55:47):
of the situation.

Speaker 2 (01:55:49):
Yeah, I again try to find things to be optimistic
about with every team, but they're their situations dire and
until they're they're out of that contract, it is a
rough go unless you walk into true talent. Now, I mean,
I do think the sky's can clear for them, even
if Watson has to stay on the books. It's just
a matter of walking into a quarterback. But when have

(01:56:09):
they ever you know, when have they ever been able
to do it? And there's the first time.

Speaker 1 (01:56:13):
God, who was the guy they trade? It was the
guy that got rid of.

Speaker 2 (01:56:16):
Which they shouldn't have. You know, I still don't think
they should have. I like Baker Mayfield a lot, and
I think he's a good pairing with Stefanski. But maybe
it was not wanting to be there anymore, which is
always the unspoken devil. But they got to get out
of Watson. But if they don't walk into a rookie quarterback,
it's just going to be a mainstay of either late
round picks that you hope pan out into something serviceable

(01:56:38):
or Joe Flacco. So I mean, it's great, Yeah, it's
it's hard to be happy about your offense if you're
a Cleveland fan. I do wonder if there's any chance
of a resurgence for this offensive line. If there isn't,
then the thing that I think was kind of a
shining thing for them. Yes, it's going to inhibit everything
else offensively, and an offense that's already inhibited. So and

(01:57:00):
I feel for Stefanski because I like him a lot.
As a coach, I think the praise for him is
certainly warranted. I think as a play caller, you know,
good game feel gets his players into positions of success.
A lot of it has just had to do with
poor roster construction from a bad front office that's put
him in terrible spots. And he's still managed to coach
some impressive teams or at least impressive moments through it all.

(01:57:21):
And he's dealt another shitty hand and he has to
somehow work through it. And I'll tell you one thing.
If that man can take this roster right now and
get it to even just like seven wins, please don't
fire him. Like I don't think he deserves to be
fired for something that I truly feel is out of
his power. And we'll just have to see Max. But
I have nothing else to contribute for the Cleveland Browns conversation.

(01:57:45):
I will wrap this up by and just thank you again.
You were a tremendous guest. This was an awesome episode.
I think this is actually the longest episode I have
ever done, but I'm glad we were able to give
enough detail and insight into all of these teams. You know,
you brought the juice. You're an awesome follow I trust
your opinion and your input, and I want you with
the flour right now to tell the good people where

(01:58:07):
they can find you, what do you have going on?
What can they expect from you in the future.

Speaker 1 (01:58:12):
Yeah, so, I mean, you can obviously find me at
my Twitter. The handles is right below my name on
the little banner there. That's that's pretty much the the
train station where all my stuff ends up. That's kind
of a you know, where you can find pretty much everything.
I do. Remember, the tight Ends is my sub stack
that's dedicated entirely to the tight end position and reframing

(01:58:35):
public discourse and understanding of it, just because it's such
a it's such a misunderstood and overlooked in a lot
of ways position that I think that when it comes
time to think about it, we don't have the necessary information.
So it's a great place where where that's the only
topic of discussion. We're going to be doing a lot
of stuff for the rest of the off season. I've

(01:58:57):
got some some you know, bigger like trend stuff. I
got some player specific stuff looking back on their seasons
and projecting them forward. And then we're going to get
into the stuff that people like, which is the ranking stuff.
When we get closer to camp. I'm going to do
another one of my I did a big thread ranking
the top ten tight ends last year. I'm going to

(01:59:20):
do that again, both in thread form and on the site.
And I'm also going to do the same thing but
for fantasy. That's so that's going to be you know,
there's such a there's such a difference in invaluation between
real life and fantasy, especially at the tight end position,
and I think that a lot of people want to

(01:59:42):
know about the fantasy implications of it. So I want
to do both lists just to just to honor both
of those different those different criteria for evaluating these guys.
And yeah, I also do some Bengals stuff with with
SiO there with with them, I'm doing I got a

(02:00:05):
big quarterback piece coming out that's that's a big overview
for just what the position is where we're getting it
so wrong in how we evaluate it as a public
now where that's changed, where quarterbacks have gotten worse, and
where certain quarterbacks, you know, and and things that certain

(02:00:28):
quarterbacks are doing that are you know, s tier levels
of difficulty that are just getting overlooked for in relation
to certain other things that that get a little bit
more play in the modern game, or at least in
in modern understanding of the modern game. So that's that's
a big thing. That's that's insanely long. I don't know

(02:00:49):
how much that's going to end up being because it
was I mean, the my final draft that I you know,
put a bow on earlier this week with six thousand words. Oh,
it's like twenty pages double face if it were a paper,
So it's almost like a bit of a bit of
a it's almost like a legal paper. But I think

(02:01:11):
it's good. I think it's it's a big you know,
it's a big potential inflection point for quarterback discourse, just
to give people a lot of stuff to see, a
lot of stuff that they haven't really noticed to start
to see. So that's that's the big thing that's next.
And like I said, earlier. You can just find all
of it circulating through my Twitter.

Speaker 2 (02:01:32):
And you all should follow Max on Twitter again, a
great follow someone that I have personally learned a lot
from just following his work. But I think all of
you will be able to be taking away something from
everything that he puts out content wise, especially when it
comes to tight ends, which is just like again, the
thread that you originally posted was one of the most

(02:01:53):
fun things I followed because I loved again your detail
just to how their role the usage matters and kind
of how that can alter the perception. And also the
fact that you had Kittle above Kelsey and your mentions
were on fire. I commend you for braving that story.

Speaker 1 (02:02:07):
I don't really get it. That's so it's.

Speaker 2 (02:02:12):
The nature of it's the nature of discourse, man, and
listen like it's all in good fun. It's all football
and we love it and that's why we cover it.
But again, I appreciate your time, Max. This was an
awesome episode and I think we really covered this division
in the strengths and the weaknesses of the teams, what
we can expect from them realistically. Again, I think with
your team, the Bengals, I don't think they're going to

(02:02:35):
be going away anytime soon, despite some of the concerns
over their defense and lack thereof when it comes to
addressing the roster move wise. But I think that will
especially for Bills fans who are watching this episode like
it's going to be a bloodbath. No matter how you
spin it, it's just how the division breaks down. It's
just what it is to play a team that comes

(02:02:56):
from a division where it's essentially just a fight and
boxing match. Every time you face up with just really
deep trench teams that are going to bring pass rush juice,
that are going to defend your run well, and they're
going to make you have to assess things schematically on offense.
So I'm looking forward to those matchups. I hope this
preview for any fan of any of the teams in

(02:03:16):
this division serves you well. Again, I know not everything
was positive, but there are things to like about every
team and a lot to watch out for.

Speaker 1 (02:03:24):
But yeah, if you hate that, come at me, don't
come at you.

Speaker 2 (02:03:27):
Yeah, all the lightning rod of the divisional hatred from
other fan bases. But Max, again, you're awesome. You're welcome
back anytime. Thank you for joining me, for all of
you who tuned in, Thank you so much for watching
this week's episode. I know this one's pre recorded. Wanted
to do it this way because I knew this was
going to be a long episode given the nature of
the discussion. Wanted to give it the due diligence and time.

(02:03:50):
You could check us out on our channel right now.
We have a ton of things going on this off season.
Air Raid has been doing a series on prospects coming
out next year. Because these dudes are cycle pats, I
want to talk about next years draft already, which is awesome.
Eric and Aa've been doing awesome work and disguised coverage.
The Cover one Buffalo podcast has been going strong. A
lot to like on the network, So check out all

(02:04:10):
the content we have going on. Subscribe if you haven't
already again Maxis channel, Maxis Twitter is linked right below.
Check it out if you can. But we are going
to say good night in your case if this is
airing tomorrow during the day, have a great rest of
your day. We appreciate you falling along. We'll see you soon.
We'll be back with another divisional preview, but take care everybody,

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