Bills Sign Josh Palmer, Michael Hoecht - A Free Agency Recap! | UR - Under Review

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:13):
Previous play. We'll go under Review.

Speaker 2 (00:42):
Happy Tuesday evening, everybody, and thank you so much for
being here for this week's episode of Under Review. My
name is Joe DeRosa and you can find me on
Twitter slash x at show Underscore DeRosa. Tonight's tagline is
pretty obvious. Josh Palmer, because of his free agency and
the Bills have made a swath of different moves from
extensions to individual free agent signings, re signings, and so

(01:04):
much more information that we got to know about in
the past forty eight hours, and I'm very excited to
talk about it with all of you and my guest tonight,
mister David Tilton, one half of the Air Raid Hour,
someone I love getting on.

Speaker 1 (01:16):
The show front of the network. David, welcome. How you
doing tonight, I'm good man.

Speaker 3 (01:22):
I mean, it was a slow go for a little
while yesterday until about three pm we started getting getting
some news about some free agent signings. Today a couple
more bits of news obviously that we're going to get to.
But look, I think this is the reality of what
it's like now to be a fan of a team who,
as we talked about in the studio, doesn't have a
ton of glaring holes, retooling, trying to find value in

(01:46):
a free agent market that's just seemingly every year gets
more and more out of control with the contracts and
the dollars. So it's just wild to see some of
the contracts that come out every year, and each year
it just seems like it keeps getting more and more crazy.

Speaker 2 (02:00):
Wow, definitely the market is so broken. I mean, even
for the receiving class this year that we were going
into free agency, even said like wasn't stellar by any stretch,
even like and not to downplay who's been signed, because
I'll get to our signing in a little while, but
it's more just like the value that you're seeing a
lot of these receivers who you could consider B tier,

(02:21):
even ce tier is kind of crazy. Like even the
two to two at Well contract that he got, I
was not.

Speaker 1 (02:26):
Expecting that money at all.

Speaker 2 (02:28):
It was very very like, oh wow, so it's gonna
be like that this year. But yeah, we talked about
this a little bit offline, David, and actually real quick
joining us in the chat right now, your responsibility, you
have a job to do that is going to be
to break any news to us if we don't happen
to see it already. If we don't catch it, people
in the chat, don't lie first and foremost, good etiquette

(02:49):
about it, because if someone says, oh my god, they
just traded for Trey Hendrick said, and that didn't happen,
that would be mean.

Speaker 1 (02:55):
Don't be mean, be nice. But no, just let us know.

Speaker 2 (02:58):
If you see anything that we might not have gotten to,
we'll be happy to talk about it here live. But David, Yeah,
that's a great thing you bring up. And we talked
about this a little bit offline the discourse around free
agency for the Bills and just opening up with this
and I'll pitch it back to you.

Speaker 1 (03:13):
But it feels like every year.

Speaker 2 (03:15):
We kind of have this reset of expectations for what
this team is really going to do. And every year
the offseason is typically prefaced with Brandon Bean saying, don't
expect too much. I'm not going to spend crazy amounts
of money. I'm going to spend reasonable amounts of money,
and I'm going to just try and put the roster
together as best as I can before the draft, and

(03:36):
everyone kind of hears it, sees it, and goes okay,
and then it's almost like Christmas, where like your parents
tell you they're not going to get you that gift,
and you're like, they're not going to get me that gift.
Only this time Brandon Bean really doesn't actually get you
that gift because he's usually pretty transparent about if I
have to make the move, I will, but also it
has to be reasonable. And this off season, specifically this

(03:59):
free agency cycle, it's.

Speaker 1 (04:00):
Kind of what it's been.

Speaker 2 (04:01):
It's just been reasonable moves, like contracts you either expected
or the value you kind of expected to get for
raising players, but not anything astronomy astronomical like a Miles
Garrett trade or a Max Crosby trade, and people kind
of talk themselves into it, like you told me offline,
and I'll pitch it back to you.

Speaker 1 (04:18):
Just talk to me about what your.

Speaker 2 (04:20):
Expectations were really going into this free agency cycle relative
to kind of the narrative, Brandon. I see your comment,
relative to kind of the narrative that you know, maybe
got stirred up from just fan base or really false
expectations compared to what branded be really sad.

Speaker 3 (04:37):
Yeah, I mean you can compare this to a couple
different things too, Right, It's like going into the season
like it's like, oh, you expect to win the super
Bowl and like, yes, only one of thirty two teams
actually will win the super Bowl. And even like going
into the playoffs, the Bills had obviously only like a
you know, one in how are many chances to win
the super Bowl even though we're in the playoffs. So
it's like when you start to kind of talk yourselves

(04:57):
into these moves about like trading for the trade in
or trading for a Miles Garrett, they sound great, right,
and if they happen, you're super pumped about it. But
the likelihoods of those happening were always going to be low, right,
I mean talked about it a couple weeks ago. Garrett's
contract was very difficult to get out of for both
the Browns, and it would have been difficult for an

(05:18):
accepting team also to work through that. We always thought,
or at least I always thought, given how much cap
space the Raiders have had, that they were certainly going
to try to do everything they could to retain Crosby,
and they did so. I never really thought he was
like a super realistic option. And then there's Trey Hendrickson, right,
who is going into the last year of his contract,
the Bengals trying to work you know, salary cap to

(05:39):
kind of fit t Higgins into the future. But also like,
do the Bengals really want to give away Trey Hendrickson
on his contract year for probably not going to get
a ton for him at age thirty as far as
draft pick compensation is concerned. And their defense really wasn't
good last year, so why would they give away or
trade away their best defensive place. So these things were

(06:01):
always not likely to happen. And it's sometimes hard because
there is a mountain of free agents out there, right,
and a lot of times what happens, especially on social
media or wherever is we end up talking about like
the tip right, the everest peak of the free agent class,
and we don't talk about everyone else. And I know

(06:21):
you've been producing for Eric and Anthony. They've been doing
a great job kind of saying like, hey, here are
some guys that could fit with the Bills look for
based on the trends, based on the film we've watched
over the years, these are the types of the guys
that we could see the Bills going after. And they
certain weren't They certainly weren't inactive right, Brandon Bean did
make moves, and I also believe that there were probably

(06:45):
moves out there that he was in on or phone
calls he made to other teams that we just aren't
gonna know about that We don't know how close he
may have been on some of these other things as well,
or some of these other players. So you just you
see the end result and you kind of you know.
Sometimes they do a really good job on the embedded series, right,
taking you behind the scenes and things of that nature.
But that's one area free agency you rarely get to

(07:08):
see the behind the scenes on kind of what really
happens because you don't really want to show your hand
on what you're really doing behind the scenes, especially in
free agency.

Speaker 2 (07:16):
I agree with that, and it's a process that again
I feel like it's almost I don't want to call
it a good problem to have, because obviously you want
to have more money to be able to make some
of these more dynamic players come to your roster and
stay there long term. And I would absolutely love it
if there was a realistic path for the Bills financially
to go get Miles Garrett or to go get Max Crosby.

Speaker 1 (07:38):
And I was one of those people that.

Speaker 2 (07:39):
Was willing to see that trade through, if it was
for even just a first round pick next year, this year, whatever,
and however you make it work, you make it work.

Speaker 1 (07:47):
But I'm also a believer.

Speaker 2 (07:49):
That the roster that you have now, the team that
you have now, in the position you are in, despite
it not being you know, a swath of cap space
that you're capable of using, you did just go to
the AFC Championship with a roster that is, you know,
good enough to get you there, and you just added
to a roster that's good enough to get you there.
And when you talk about youth infusion and the draft

(08:11):
coming up, I feel like the best course of action
if you are unable to make a move that's as explosive,
that's as impactful as getting a Crosby a Garrett, is
raise your four as much as you can. And if
you can do so, then the draft is how you
compound on that. And it's the way that I want
to to really exist as a franchise because so often

(08:31):
you see a lot of money get dished out that
just simply doesn't pan out the way you think it would,
and a lot of people buy every type of every year,
and Greg's made this point. A lot of people have
made this point. But you talk about the hype of
a free agency signing relative to what actually happens. And
it's cool to see your team spend the money and

(08:51):
get the free agent and see the graphic and have
them come to your team, but so often does it
not work out the way you thought, or every signing
does it work out the way you wanted it to
relative to how many you thought would stay on the roster,
who would be a contributor, and so on and so forth.

Speaker 1 (09:06):
So just narratives about it.

Speaker 3 (09:09):
But I would also say when it comes to football
in particular, right when it comes to free agency, like
unless it's a quarterback, and maybe in rare, rare cases,
like in a super elite, rare type of player, like
we have to remember there's eleven guys on offense, eleven
guys on defense. It's a fifty three man roster when
it comes to game like your final like individual free agents,

(09:35):
I think in football, like I'm not saying I don't,
I'm not going to underscore how important they are, but
I think relative to free agency, and let's say the NBA,
it's less impactful in football because unless it's a quarterback,
like I said, because so many things have to go
right for that signing to work out for you, Right,

(09:56):
they have to fit with what the team wants to do.
They have to avoid injury, they have to perform to
not just their prior performance, which is typically how NFL
contracts are given out. Like you're paying a guy for
essentially what he's already done in most cases, and not
what you think he's gonna do. And that's just the reality.
And yes, you like to think you're paying for what

(10:17):
he's going to do and that's why you give him
the contract, but in reality, you're paying for what he's done,
and there's no guarantee that that player is going to
do continue to do that because it's just how fluid
and nuanced and random football can be as a sport.
So anyway, yeah, Regie william resigns.

Speaker 2 (10:34):
Yeah, absolutely, Yeah, I wanted to get to that, but
I agree with you completely so, and it's a thing where,
again you want it to work out. We're so optimistic,
but even look at the Bond contract too, Like we
were so hyped about von Miller, and granted I think
it was panning out.

Speaker 1 (10:49):
The way we wanted to. But sometimes it doesn't work
out the way you hope.

Speaker 2 (10:52):
And that's honestly why I'm a little more hesitant to
just drop the bag on every free agent you see
and rather just find the people that are functional. Again,
that four Raisin group, it's cheaper, it's something that can
be sustained year after year despite your cap situation. And again,
if you find hits in the draft, now your death is.

Speaker 1 (11:11):
Just really solid. And that's a great world to be in.

Speaker 2 (11:12):
But let's get on to the fun part, and that's
the free agent signings we've had, and we'll start with
the most recent news, which as of tonight, literally over
the past like hour and a half, we got Ty
Johnson and Reggie Gillion Reggie Gilliam moments ago, and that's
by Mike Garrifoo that he's coming back on a one year,
two million dollar contract. Ty Johnson on a two year,
five million dollar contract, which that is great value for

(11:34):
the production you've got For Ti Johnson, I'm a huge fan.
Till we'll start with these two before we get to
the external signings. What do you think about bringing these
two back?

Speaker 3 (11:43):
I mean, to me, these were always like, okay, we
talked about I talked about this on air EAD Hour
last night too. Out of Mac Collins, Reggie Gilliam, Ty Johnson.
To me, it always felt like Mac Collins was the
most likely to leave the Bills because just because the
Bills really need to kind of, you know, do something
with that receiver room. Differently, I didn't think that, you know,

(12:06):
spending money on a guy like that necessarily like, yes,
we love the vibes, but like the vibes aren't everything.
Reggie Gilliam was an important piece to this running game
down especially down the stretch they've been used. They were
using him more in that running game and James Cook
really took off obviously this year with the help of
Reggie Gilliam kind of leading the way and the way
that the Bills use him as sort of like part

(12:29):
of that sort of power running game that the Bills
really established this past year. Would have good that offensive
line was Reggie Gillium in the mix. Special teamer obviously,
we know that his contribution special teams are huge, and
Sean McDermott in his past has always been a big
special teams guy as far as how he constructs the
roster so that one a no brainer. I think it's

(12:50):
a good deal for Reggie gilliam. I don't think he's
going to go into a different situation that's going to
be better for him personally. And then Ty Johnson two
years five million, I mean think that's a home run
again for the Bills. Two years kind of gives them
also some flexibility on kind of how they're going to
handle the future of the running back room as well.
We know the situation with James cooks up in the air.

(13:11):
I'm not saying Ty Johnson's like gonna be the running
back one in twenty twenty six, by the way, I'm
not saying that, but it gives them options now also
with the two fifth round additional compicks, they have to
go after a running back maybe in the draft, but
it gives them those core three guys back for twenty
twenty five that were so successful in twenty twenty four,
with Cook, Ray Davis going into his second year and
now Ty Johnson back, and again said on Twitter as well,

(13:34):
like maybe unfair to just call him a third down back,
right because he he does run the ball effectively. He
does not just catch passes like out of the backfield.
He goes down the field and catches passes as well,
and he just always made plays in big spots, I thought,
and it's really nice to have him back. So for me,

(13:56):
these were two no brainers that the Bills again makes
sense and now they have the ultimate flexibility when it
comes to not just going into the twenty twenty five season,
but in the to the draft as well for beyond
twenty twenty five. So good, good moves for the Bills
right here.

Speaker 1 (14:11):
Yep, I'm in lockstep with you.

Speaker 2 (14:13):
I think they're great moves and just two core pieces
to not only your locker room, because I think I
would label each of these guys as just people that
have been here a few years and really good Camarderie
with the rest of your staff and your coaching staff,
your offensive coordinator, really everybody, Josh Allen especially, but on
the field production and with Reggie Gilliam the numbers don't

(14:35):
reflect it. And Ty Johnson being a third down back
and pass protector, it's not going to look as flashy,
but Ty is just the role he has and the
value you have gotten him for what the output has
been from Ty Johnson has just been tremendous over the
past couple of years since he kind of came alive
in the back half of twenty twenty three and then
last season where you're talking about him becoming really an

(14:58):
integral part of just galvinzing your running game and being
an alternate option and someone who's been a reliable receiving back.
This was well deserved and honestly less than I kind
of thought Johnson was going to command, just given what
he was able to do and what teams might have
been able to see. But maybe the limitations of his role,
despite him being what I think is better than his role,
we're maybe enough to generate a team friendly contract and

(15:20):
that's what you've got here.

Speaker 1 (15:21):
And I'm very happy to have him back.

Speaker 2 (15:23):
And you know, I could have understood and kind of
accepted if they decided, like, hey, you know, not that
he's terribly long in the tooth, because he's not, but
maybe this is a really deep running back class and
we can go get somebody to just replicate that role.
But even with running backs, it's something where they still
have to develop all those components.

Speaker 1 (15:42):
And Ty Johnson is just.

Speaker 2 (15:43):
Here now, really reliable, able to help you in that
pass blocking, able to you know, kind of have the
route running prowess that pairs with his really good rushing
ability and his speed, but also the chemistry he has
with Josh Allen. And you know, people have cited the
ver Bronco's playoff game that touchdown in some of his
off scrip moments with Josh, which I think are a

(16:05):
really crucial part to keeping this offense going, even if
you know, you do have those same issues when it
comes to well, the team's getting defended well and they
can't really beat the man, so they have to go
off script and we need someone to be alive down
the field ready to go. Ty Johnson's really good in
that role. So I am really happy to have him back,
and I am you know, I'm ready to see two
more years of Ti Johnson with Josh Allen, you know,

(16:26):
and you kind of talked about it a little bit,
but the framework and the foundation laid out for if
the team whatever they decide to do with James Cook,
whether that's retains him, where that moves on from him
and does eventually end up bringing in a running back
that they would deem their new belcal or their new
running back of the future.

Speaker 1 (16:43):
I mean having him here.

Speaker 2 (16:45):
If it's something where James Cook moves on as early
as the draft if there's a chance they trade him,
or even next season. You know, you just have that
consistent piece of that foundation of the running back room
that's there for you that could still have that same
role and still be a spark plug if you need
him to be, especially if you have someone new that
might not be as quick or as chemistry written. As

(17:06):
you know James Cook has been with Josh Allen, and
if Ray Davis doesn't pan out, then this is still
a reliable option to turn to. So huge fan of
bringing him back. And then as far as Reggie Gilliam goes,
you know, I love fullbacks. I love Reggie Gilliam in
this offense with the you know, the physicality and the
power that they run with. You know, when you can
get him going downhill to set a block, he can
do it. I honestly feel like Gilliam is someone I

(17:28):
want to see them utilize a little bit more in
the passing game, just to be dedious and just really
hammered down that open field aggression and again you know,
being able to hurt people when the ball is in
your hands, and just any yards you could get by
being stubborn because he is, despite just being a fullback,
also has tight end history. Like it's a guy that
I want to see a little more involved beyond a
blocking role. I'm not saying, Please don't take that as

(17:50):
me saying let him be top three interceptions on this team.

Speaker 1 (17:52):
I do not mean it that way.

Speaker 2 (17:54):
I'd just be like, let's get a little more versatile
with the fullback and some of those prestat books you can.

Speaker 1 (17:58):
Have with him.

Speaker 2 (17:59):
But always good to have Dellian back again. He was
never going to command a lot of money, so it
seemed like a no brainer. It's literally two million dollars
chump change. I'm happy to have both of these guys back.
So any final thoughts on these two players before we
move on to the other signings we had from yesterday, I.

Speaker 3 (18:14):
Just I would say, on one last note on Ty Johnson, right,
is like he saw the type of production he could
have in a role where he kind of thrived with
the Bills, and like, you don't know if he goes
somewhere else, if he can kind of recreate that magic, right,
and if he would even be guaranteed the same type
of snap counts, and like, yes, if he was going
to go sign somewhere maybe they were going to promise

(18:35):
him a role, but like the role he has here
with Josh Allen, that chemistry and the best production he's
had in his career. Let's not forget the Jets kind
of screwed him over a couple of years ago when
they got rid of him. I think that left the
bad taste in his mouth. And I think this Bill's
organization has treated him well, so also that plays into
it as well. So yeah, glad to have him back.

Speaker 1 (18:57):
Definitely. Yeah, he was. He was a revelation.

Speaker 2 (18:59):
I mean when you got him was his arc kind
of reminds me a lot of Isaiah McKenzie, kind of
someone you brought in as like a journeyman in the
middle of the season and you were like, ah, right,
like i've seen the name before, what could this bring us?
Like maybe there's a role for him if you're desperate.
And then, like with McKenzie, they got him going a
little bit and you saw the speed kind of flash
on the field and they had a nice little gadget

(19:20):
role for him and you're like, yeah, you know, I
could rock with this for you know, for a role
for long term, like something super gimmicky and then it
continued to expand because the play was decent enough where
you could justify it. Then ultimately it didn't really pan
out the way you wanted to when you gave him
the slot role, but you got him to a level
where he was relevant and you had him for a
few years. And with Ty Johnson, it's kind of a

(19:42):
similar arc. Like you get him mid season, he gets
kind of floating around, You're trying to find a place
for him, and then just come up against the Jets
of all teams to have that big touchdown run and
the explosiveness, and you're like, let's see what we could do,
and the role just slowly expanded, and then you bring
it back on a one year contract because you're thinking like,
all right, this was fun, let's see and then okay,

(20:03):
he's doing it again and he's becoming even more of
a focal point. And now it's like you got him back.
It's gonna be probably the same role in my eyes,
and I'm happy about it.

Speaker 1 (20:12):
I just I really like keeping these foundational pieces in
this offense.

Speaker 2 (20:16):
But you know, for what he's getting paid, I think
his impact is significant. What he was able to do
for them this year significant and I gotta pull this up, Brandon,
you're distracting me. But Wendy's our taco bell tonight. I
saw you say, Dave, Wendy's. Yeah, just go with the.

Speaker 1 (20:32):
Wendy's, dude.

Speaker 2 (20:33):
Honestly, that sounds much better right now, like burger good
burger good fries combo.

Speaker 1 (20:38):
Okay, back to the conversation.

Speaker 2 (20:40):
So one other thing I wanted to talk to you
about where the external signings we had, And it's really
just two main guy unless you want to talk about
Darrenton Evans. But I'll go for the two most relevant guys,
which I know that you had Judge covered yesterday in
Josh Palmer and Michael Hoyt.

Speaker 1 (20:56):
Josh Palmer they got earlier in the day.

Speaker 2 (20:58):
Hoyt a little later on he addresses you know, kind
of the death the floor of the wide receiver room
that you know could use someone with this profile, again,
not a typical burner, but a route running specialist, a
more tactile weapon, which you know is good because they
need these guys that are capable of separating against man coverage.
You had someone like a few years ago Stefan Diggs

(21:19):
who was capable of doing that. Then they lost that
and they struggle to kind of replicate it, and now
they have an opportunity to find a player who is
serviceable enough against man coverage to give them more flexibility
and breathing room if teams decide to.

Speaker 1 (21:31):
Show them those looks.

Speaker 2 (21:32):
So, David, what were your thoughts on signing Josh Palmer
And where do you think he's going to fill in
with this wide receiver room.

Speaker 1 (21:38):
What do you really think the role will look like
for him this season?

Speaker 3 (21:42):
Yeah, I mean, look, I think I think Josh Palmer
fits in sort of the room as far as like
the Bills don't really have the alpha type of guy, right.
They have Shakiir. I get that. Going into the last season,
they're you know, their top four going into the season,
where Shakir rookie, Keyon Coleman, Curtis Samuel who was banged up,
and then Matt Collins who was kind of viewed more

(22:03):
as a special teamer. Now going into this season, they
have key On Coleman, Shakir, Keank Coleman, second year Shakir,
Curtis healthy hopefully Curtis Samuel, and now Josh Palmer, who
does bring that ability to beat man coverage into the
room is a It feels like a move, a similar
move to what they did at the trade deadline last

(22:24):
year to when they brought in Amari Cooper. As far
as his ability to beat man coverage, I think Josh
Palmer profiles a little bit a little bit similar to
Amari Cooper. To be honest, I think he can get
down the field maybe a little bit better on contested catches,
but he's still only twenty five years old. The Bills
are making this signing I think based on sort of

(22:46):
some of his past production with the Chargers. He's never
really been a hundred target or an alpha type of guy,
and I think that's going to be fine for what
the Bills need for him to do. And so I
think he knows he's coming in here into a role
that he's been comfortable in right as far as like, hey,
I've never had to be like the focal point of

(23:06):
an offense and I still maybe don't have to be,
which is fine because he's comfortable with that. Learn from
Keenan Allen all those years. That's a great mentor to have,
and now comes into a situation where he brings something
to the room that the Bills don't exactly have now
with Marii Cooper likely not back after this signing. So
I would say it fits what they need. Some of
the advanced metrics in his separation look good. I will

(23:28):
say this to fans though, I will say, and really
for me too, it's like, this isn't like we shouldn't
expect like, oh, this isn't like a wide receiver one
type of sign. Like the money looks like a lot,
and I get that, but when you look at two
two out, we'll getting ten million dollars. When you look
at Diami Brown getting a ten million up to twelve
million dollar deal, and you see then Josh Palmer getting

(23:49):
twelve million AAV which really probably is gonna end up
amounting to like a two year deal with the Bills
can get out of it, likely with minimal dead cap.
I would assume, again we don't have the full details,
yet it makes sense to me right as something that
they would want to add. Now you can quibble over
whether or not they should have allocated resources to other
positions whatever, but I think for the market and what

(24:09):
the Bills needed, a guy that will come into the
room and kind of fit well, right, because that's what
you're also looking for as guys who can fit into
your room. It checks those boxes. Right. I'm not telling
you he's like the best receiver in the world. I'm
not telling you he's the worst, right, I'm just saying
he fits what they need. I don't know that they're
going to be done yet at this position. We'll see

(24:30):
what happens in the draft. But it does fill a need.
And really, even though it looks like it not breaking
the bank on a guy like this.

Speaker 2 (24:38):
Yeah, and I will say that it's not breaking the bank.
This is just the skewed market for wide receivers. But
also I think that when you look at how this
offense treats wide receivers in general, as far as what
their roles are, they're very specific. You know, they want
guys that are capable of wearing a certain hat, whether
that's being kind of more of a power profile receiver

(25:00):
with you know, physicality and the ability to work at
the catch point, like Kean Coleman. Someone who is a
bit more of a middle of the field slot option,
whether that's Curtis Samuel or maybe some a thing of
a hybrid like a Shakir Samuel, or someone that's a
bit more tactical like Josh Palmer. They want to have
the versatility, and like you have said, he is someone
that fits that profile, someone that they really needed because

(25:23):
ultimately they struggled against man coverage last season, and this
is a guy who has excelled against that type of
coverage in numerous ways. And I think it's not so
much about the production with him as much as it's
just about the profile.

Speaker 1 (25:37):
And I'm very comfortable having him just be that role player.

Speaker 2 (25:40):
And I'm very comfortable bringing in a guy to just
be a role player because same thing that I said
before to what I'll say to this and our next
player that will cover. It's all about raising your flour,
and this is a guy who absolutely raises your flour.
He has never put up earth shattering numbers. His best
season looking here, he had seven hundred and sixty nine
yards on seventy two recis average, about ten point seven

(26:02):
yards per reception, three total touchdowns. You know, not overwhelming numbers,
but that's good enough to be productive in a Buffalo
Bill's offense that wants to spread the ball around.

Speaker 1 (26:11):
So if they are.

Speaker 2 (26:13):
Going to do that this year, then find me a
guy who just specializes in that role, and I'll be
comfortable with it. And this is that guy, So I'm
perfectly okay with the signing. Did I think it was
a little rich at the time, Sure, it did seem
like much, But seeing how it's breaking down and the
fact that at most two year deals or just or
most three year deals probably give you that out, I'll

(26:33):
rock with it.

Speaker 1 (26:34):
I'll see.

Speaker 2 (26:35):
I'm willing to see how it goes as far as
the money goes, and if it is a fair return
on investment, because i know people are a bit snake
bitten by the Curtis Samuel contract. But I'm very comfortable
with this, and the age is a big thing for
me to tilt. The fact that you got a twenty
five year old receiver on the open market who has
shown flashes of brilliance. Again, hasn't put it all together,
but has had his moments where he can win down

(26:56):
the field and create real separation.

Speaker 1 (26:58):
It's a skill set you needed. It's profile and need it, and.

Speaker 2 (27:01):
I'm very happy about it, and I am willing to
see how he does in an offense that maybe isn't
done adding to that wide receiver room, especially now that
Matt Collins is gone and maybe you don't look internally
to find the void or to fill the void at
that spot.

Speaker 1 (27:15):
So we'll have to see. But any final thoughts on
Josh Palmer, anything you want to add before we move
on to the next free agent.

Speaker 3 (27:22):
I will say this, I don't think it stops the
Bills from taking a wide receiver or maybe even two
in the draft. The question would be when. And I
think the question of when has a lot to do
with the positional group we're about to talk to you,
with Michael Hoydt and just generally the defensive line. I
think people are very very concerned there. So let's let's

(27:44):
go to Michael hoyd I guess, and start that conversation.

Speaker 1 (27:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (27:48):
Yeah, And the d line is something that they are
they're going to address.

Speaker 1 (27:54):
I don't even say I want them to address.

Speaker 2 (27:55):
They have to address it, right and they have needs
at edge rusher and they have needs a defensive tackle.
But I will say that the Michael Hoyt signing for
me was one that I was happy about for the
reason of he is just a Swiss Army man on
that defensive line. And you know this past year when
they brought in de want Smoot, You're kind of hoping
to get that out of him, and then he had

(28:15):
the injury mid season and you never really see it
live up to its potential. But there were moments for
Smoot where he generated pressure from different spots, whether that
was out wide as an edge rusher, whether that was
in the interior.

Speaker 1 (28:26):
And it was a cool concept.

Speaker 2 (28:27):
And I feel like they wanted to get a little
bit younger at the spot, and they wanted to find
someone who was just athletically capable, but also someone that
can wear those hats and also cover. And that's what
you get in Michael Hoyd. He is a very versatile player.
The Rams used him in a variety of ways. There
was a literal video clip of this man actually having
good quality coverage on DK metcalf on a slant, which

(28:48):
is the funniest thing ever. And I made a joke
in our discord today till I was like, you got
the tired which is cam Lewis as the backup Nickel,
but the inspired is Michael Hoyt is your backup Nickel.

Speaker 1 (29:00):
So I'm just going to start that narrative that's our
backup Nickel.

Speaker 2 (29:04):
Guys, we did it, But I really really like Hoyt
for what he could bring to this D line for
the versatility not just from him and where you can
line him up, but for the fronts you could present
to an offense and how that changes the dynamic with
maybe if you want to send whether it's one of
the odd mirror fronts, and have him involved with that
in a different spot. You have to account for where
this guy's lining up because he has the juice to

(29:24):
create pressure. And I really like it for that reason,
especially if we stay on the narrative of raising the
floor adding more youth infusion in the draft to the
D line with a defensive you know, whether it's a
defensive tackle and one tack or run stuffer or going
and getting that edge rusher and letting him kick inside
even though he might be a little undersized for it.

Speaker 1 (29:43):
Now at a consistent basis, I like it.

Speaker 2 (29:46):
I'm I'm really happy about this move. This is one
where I was like, yeah, let's go. I see the vision.
But till back to you, what do you think about
Michael Hoyt on this defense?

Speaker 3 (29:56):
Yeah, And like I know, some people I spin in
the comments I see he's asking about do we overpay?
This is one where we do know the contract details.
I don't remember the specific numbers Greg put them in
the discord, but this was definitely one where the cap
hits were like fairly low for twenty five and twenty six,
and there was quite an easy out I believe for
twenty twenty seven. So it seemed like this was a

(30:16):
very team friendly contract. On the surface, it's like, you know,
obviously up to twenty four million, I believe it was.
But in reality and just.

Speaker 2 (30:25):
Real quick, the cap hit for twenty twenty five is
four point four million or more point five million. His
twenty twenty six cap hit at his age twenty nine
season would be seven point five million. Then your potential
out in twenty twenty seven only gives you about two
point six million.

Speaker 3 (30:40):
Dead cap, so okay, so there you go. And how
much cap savings I don't know, probably about eight six,
six to eight. I'm guessing with a.

Speaker 2 (30:47):
Two total for the twenty twenty seven it would be
two year fourteen.

Speaker 1 (30:50):
Point six mil.

Speaker 3 (30:51):
Okay, So you'd be looking at about six million in
cap saving real cap savings if you got out of
that after two years. So it's a good problem to
have if the bills because he excels and he ascends
and he is a contributor, then it's a no brainer
that he's there for his twenty twenty seven season and
his age thirty season. And again a guy who is
only twenty seven years old. Both of these guys, Josh

(31:13):
Palmer and Michael Hoyt are just coming off their first
contracts in the NFL. So the Brandon means getting these
guys in their mid twenties, eyeing these guys as ascending players,
and that's where you can find value in the free
agent market. Yes, it's a risk, Yes you are taking
the risk that these guys will continue to ascend, but
sometimes you kind of have to do that, and when

(31:33):
you already have a really good team, it sometimes makes
sense to do those types of things because you're not
necessarily hanging your hat on the team's success is totally
reliant on these guys, but they can be significant contributors
to your team in twenty twenty five, Hoyt's versatility is
very intriguing. They can move them around. I do think
the Bills defense needs to be a little bit more unpredictable,

(31:56):
especially in big moments, and that's a guy that can
potentially bring some of that for you. Some three three
five alignments, some different linebackers you can put on the field,
different things that you can do. Now it's going to
be up to Bobby Babbage to kind of think about
how to use guys like that, but certainly something that
makes sense to me. The Bills use a rotation as
it is, so you don't have to expect this guy

(32:17):
to play more than fifty percent of the snaps anyway.
So I like the move. We'll see what kind of
his playing weight. If the Bills want to kind of
keep them at where he was with the Rams last year,
I think that makes sense. He was effective doing that.
We saw some of the struggles they had, was kind
of messing with Ajpanessa's body composition. I say, leave Michael

(32:37):
Hoyt where he is, that body type he had with
the Rams last year. I think at that weight and
sort of body type will work well for the Bills.
And by the way, I think this guy was like
a nine point something ras as well, so you know
he's an athletic guy too. So there you go.

Speaker 2 (32:54):
As Andre says, here a Sante Samuel Junior signing Sudon
Winki face. If that is the fake account that had
been for whatever reason, specifically reporting about the Bills signing him,
and I have no idea why.

Speaker 1 (33:06):
Yes, that is a fake account.

Speaker 2 (33:07):
I was very excited when I first saw because I
do like a Santa Samuel Junior. I hope he still signs,
but if that is based off that one account, I
can't even remember the guy's name. That is a parody account.
And unfortunately we got God so that Yeah, listen, it's again.
I'm not looking at Michael Hoydt as being your primary
edge rusher, but I like someone that's just a tactical piece.

(33:28):
I like getting that in free agency when you don't
have the crazy amount of cap to spend. Again, if
we're talking about not being able to physically afford the
trade for one of the premier edge rushers, then he
got to go with whatever the market has for you.
And this is an option, and there's still veteran pass
rushers available that you probably could get on relatively fair
deals to compliment that and still maintain your position in

(33:50):
the draft and plan in the draft. And for Michael Hoyt,
where you talk about the Bills that love having that
kind of amba positionless vibe to them, where you got
guys that are going to play multiple roles that might
line up like for example, Cole Bishop. Even though they've
had him be kind of a deeper field guy, he
also gets up closer to the box and maybe at
times could even be one of those dinebackers Michael Hoyd.

(34:11):
It's yeah, maybe we'll kick him outside, maybe we'll have
him on the interior. Maybe he lines up even as
a linebacker in certain looks. But we know he's capable
of doing it all and.

Speaker 1 (34:18):
I want to see it.

Speaker 2 (34:19):
And the athleticism for him is a thing that I
really am drawn to you because even though it's not everything,
as we have seen with freak rass scores that usually
for some players just translate to absolutely nothing, it's a
good component to have if you're talking about asking someone
to cover. If they are, you know, a defensive lineman
that just needs to drop a few yards back, and
I'm okay with that.

Speaker 1 (34:40):
And again the value is there.

Speaker 2 (34:42):
It's a very reasonable contract and what you are getting
is a functional piece, and that's all this is about
right now. And if they decide to do some sort
of splash move down the line, and then that's even
better because all you did was fortify your debt further
and that's what they're trying to do. That's what they
do every single season, and here they are with another
piece that serves that purpose. So I pleased with it.
Will it work out like anything, We will just have

(35:04):
to see. Maybe it crashes and birds, or maybe it's
the two best free agent signings and Bill's history and
we are just overwhelmed, or most likely it's something in
the middle where fans will love it or hate it
depending on what their intrinsic value of said player and
said production is. So basically every offseason with every single
player ever. David, any other thoughts on Michael Hoyt before

(35:25):
we carry on to the re signings that the Bill's bad?

Speaker 3 (35:28):
Yeah, just final thought. I for me, this feels a
lot like the Connor McGovern signing back in twenty twenty three,
when he signed a three year, twenty three million dollar
deal over whatever it was. You were betting on his traits,
you were betting on his physical profile. He came in
to start as a guard, and then we saw what
he ascended to when he became the center last year.

(35:48):
You know that season in twenty twenty three, that was
like kind of like the Bill's premiere signing obviously before
before that free or during that free agency period, And
so to me, the Michael Hoyt signing feels a little
bit like that, Like guy coming into a second contract
age twenty seven, You are getting him to be kind
of a chess piece on the defensive line. Maybe you

(36:09):
figure out over the first year where he best fits,
like you did with Connor McGovern, and obviously you saw
Mitch mor Sleeve. But you're betting on that ascension again
with a guy like Michael Hoyt. And so I do
feel like there's some parallels there between the signing they
did with Connor McGovern at the beginning of twenty twenty
three and this signing now with Michael Hoyt at the
beginning of twenty twenty five.

Speaker 2 (36:28):
And I think you're gonna see a lot of him,
even if they decide to go defensive line heavy in
the draft too, Like this guy again, is that what
I would deem in the smoot role unless you go
find someone who is an all over the place defensive
line prospect that maybe has played on the interior and
now on the outside a bit. But I feel like
you're gonna see a lot of Michael Hoyt, and you
always want that pick me up guy, whether it's as

(36:48):
someone has to sub out and you feel like he
could play like a de facto three tech role or something.
I like the pick I just or pick I like
the signing just for that reason, Like I feel comfortable
knowing that you got a guy that just can really
mess with you and what you're seeing pre to post.
And you got to think, like in your division, with
some guys that are maybe easier to fool, that have
recently got signed to a New York team, then that's

(37:10):
a really good thing to have if you're talking about
divisional games too.

Speaker 1 (37:12):
Just a random tidbit.

Speaker 2 (37:13):
There, but yeah, I mean, David, I want to move
on now to the Actually, before we get to the
re signings, let's talk about the compis because that was
other news that broke today. And now the Bills are
officially going to go into this draft with ten total picks.
You got your first round pick, you have your two
in the second, no third round yet, because they're probably
going to end up getting one at some point because

(37:34):
Brandon being likes doing that, and then they have an
abundance in the later rounds. I believe it's three six
round picks, two fifths, two fourths if I had that
correct off the top of my head. So, I mean,
we kind of saw this coming. We saw the amount coming.
It's something that we speculated for a while. As I
just refresh Twitter to see Trent Shirtfield, Buffalo Bill's legend
is now at Denver Bronco. Congratulations Trent, two years eight

(37:54):
mil Okay, was not expecting that. But anyways, competitory picks
again a value we all saw coming. Your thoughts really
on the draft capitol and what do you think as
of right now if you had to just say Brandon
Beach's draft strategy, what do you think it's going to be.
Do you feel like it's key to move up this
year or are you feeling more of a trade back

(38:15):
and let's just stack it and try to get as
many as possible.

Speaker 3 (38:18):
Yeah, I mean, so obviously you have the first rounder
and two second rounders. Yes, you sign Michael Hoyt. You
really haven't done anything of significance to truly address the interior.
I would say, although we know he's a chess piece
that can move inside, but really for what the Bills
need on the interior and you really you haven't gone
out and addressed the secondary in any meaningful way either

(38:41):
so far in free agency. So as it stands right now,
it would seem like the Bills would probably be eyeing
those two position groups. And what I would say as
far as like the chances of players making the team
ten picks, like the Bills really have two main position
groups right now, the defensive line and the secondary. Where
I think that is the path to likeliest chance of

(39:01):
draft picks making the team. Yes, the wide receiver could still, yes,
I get that. A running back as well. I think
Varion Bean's gonna trade up. I think what you're gonna
see is you're gonna see. I think what I hope
is a convergence of early day early draft picks as
far as Day one, day two. So what that means is,
I think you could see a little bit of a

(39:22):
trade back from thirty moving back into like the early
second round like we saw him dude with Keon Coleman
last year. But I also think you can then use
that ammo that you have with those two fourths, two fifths,
three six to also move up, maybe get yourself an
extra fourth or maybe even another third, and kind of
converge sort of in the in sort of the middle
of this draft and where you can concentrate and bring

(39:44):
in you know, five or six, maybe seven impactful guys
onto this roster that come in somewhere between late round one,
early round two and sort of you know, mid to
late round five is kind of the sweet spot. I
think would be great for the Bills to come out
of this with like seven picks and notably as it
stands right now, a couple a couple of those picks

(40:05):
on the defensive line, secondary, and then obviously throwing a receiver,
running back, whatever you want to do there. But I
think I'd love to see it kind of converge a
bit is the word I'm going to use into those
into those middle rounds.

Speaker 2 (40:17):
Yeah, I I'm so torn on what I prefer because
I'm a pick hoard. I love I love doing my
stupid little mock drafts and trading back and getting like
thirty eight picks because PFF system is still broken and
you could trade like for pick thirty.

Speaker 3 (40:32):
Used to like you, I used to be like, I
want I want early, I want I want fewer picks
and higher impact picks at the I agree with where
I am.

Speaker 1 (40:40):
Now that's not opposed to that strategy either.

Speaker 2 (40:42):
I want to stress if that's the if that's the
route you want to take, because I'm realistic about this roster.
Right if you have ten draft picks, do you as
someone pointed out, I got to find the comics, I
just had it. But do you think that ten players
are going to make the roster with ten picks? That's
I mean, yeah, they're They're not going to add ten
players to their active roster. There's always so many holes
to fill, so many places to start. What I will

(41:03):
say is when I talk about the Bills kind of
trying to sustain the quote unquote window or the youth
infusion of their roster, I do like having the abundance
of picks and kind of splitting it where you have
a portion to start or at the very least be
backups and be on your active roster, and a portion
to develop, kind of like they did in last year's draft,
where you saw that first half beat impact guys like

(41:24):
Keon Coleman Cole Bishop, Dwane Carter obviously pre injury Dwank Carter,
and then that back half of the draft was devoted
to just filling up the old line with some prospects
and like Daikwon Hardy as a backup nickel corner who
could eventually emerge. I don't hate that strategy, but I
do think, like anything, it's going to be how the
board falls relative to what the roster really looks like

(41:45):
after free agency and what the biggest needs remaining are.
Because I'll say, if I see like Derek Harmon fall
the pick number twenty five and they're at pick thirty
and they have an opportunity to go up and get them, like,
I'm not waiting because that man's not making it's to
pick thirty, or even like Kenneth Grant or one of
these guys, if you could go up and get that
penetrating one tech, you go up and get them, and

(42:06):
I'm for that.

Speaker 1 (42:07):
I don't hate that. It's more so if those guys,
like those.

Speaker 2 (42:11):
Really big need, perfect fit guys, go before it's even
in a realistic trade up range, then I'm okay with
trading back because I do think that the needs that
you see the Bills having right now, even after free agency,
will likely still be there to some varying degree, and
then you just trade back and try to get that
third round pick back and stack the youth infusion and
just bring as many players that you see fit as possible,

(42:33):
because even then you trade back from thirty, get a
third round pick back, and then you're still talking about
having four picks, four players that could still make an impact.
It's just a matter of scouting them appropriately. But with
how deep the edge rusher d line corner class is,
I'm okay with that.

Speaker 1 (42:48):
But either option works for me.

Speaker 2 (42:50):
For me personally, I think the more realistic one that
we'll see is being traded out of the first round again,
but maybe not a significant drop off.

Speaker 1 (42:57):
Maybe something can can to like pick thirty three picks.

Speaker 2 (43:00):
Back because maybe like someone maybe their eye is completely
set on corner at someone like Trey Amos or Darian
Porter or like one of those super athletic free quarterback
prospects is there for them. Or maybe they get lucky
and the guy like Tyler Williams falls down to like
the later thirties and they can go still get that
one tech and try to develop him. Like It's very
up in the air, obviously, but I'm cool with either or.

(43:23):
I guess it just depends on what the twenties look like,
because hindsight for a lot of these things is twenty twenty.
But there are certain players I look at now and
I'm like, man, they really could have gotten up and
got them right, and it would have made so much
sense as a schematic fit.

Speaker 1 (43:35):
Even like DTJ last year. Granted I wasn't the biggest
fan of him, but it stands.

Speaker 3 (43:40):
The one that's the one that stings. I think there
are a lot of Bills fans that actually like Brian
Thomas Junior. But he also it takes a team to
be willing to trade as well, right, and Brandon Bean
has to be willing to take that race to give up,
you know, premium picks to move up that far in
last year's drafting. So we'll see what happens this year.
I like, I kind of like where the Bills are

(44:00):
at thirty right now. I think there's going to be
multiple options for them, and I think you're right, you
could maybe see a slight trade down. I think if
you see a bigger trade down, like from thirty to
say like the late thirties, you could add a third
round pick that way by moving down that far, like
obviously you'd get you know, pick thirty nine, forty forty
one and add a third rounder, or you could use

(44:23):
your extra fourth and extra fifth to move up into
the third and kind of keep pick thirty. There are
a lot of ways this could play out for the Bills,
and I think it ultimately comes down to what the
Bills end up doing with that first pick. Do they
trade down, do they keep it, et cetera. So those
that first round pick and those two seconds are huge.
A bit unfortunate that the Vikings plate were so good

(44:44):
last year after we thought they were going to be trash,
because I really thought they were not going to be
a good football team in twenty twenty four. But kudos
to kick Kevin O'Connell man. He had that team, had
that team ready, and so it is what it is.
But it's still two second rounders that's still super valuable,
and yes it's going to be exciting. And again, this
is just the first wave of free agency, right the

(45:05):
Bills may be able to find some defensive tackle out there,
Dante Fowler junior at edge out there, like there are
guys out there that they could still go out and
find kind of solidity person before the draft.

Speaker 2 (45:19):
And just personal preference, I'd rather them find like a
stopgap edge rusher before a stopgap DT. At this point,
I'm not saying I don't want them to draft an
edge rusher at all, because I'd love it if there
was a really good profile guy on the board. But
I'm at a point now where I just I'm a
big believer in building from the interior out because when
you get a true rupt on your interior, I think
that elevates everything by default, and the edge rushers you

(45:41):
bring in just have to be good enough to really
capitalize on that, because it's so hard to just lose
focus on like talk about the Jeffrey Simmons of the league,
or even like the Quinnin Williams, or now the Jalen Carters,
who literally probably I would even say Jalen Carter alone
added so much money to what Josh sweat and oil willis.

Speaker 3 (45:59):
Oh absolutely open market. That did it for everybody.

Speaker 1 (46:02):
Dude, He's unbelievable.

Speaker 2 (46:03):
And that type of player is someone that I feel
when you think about the Bills and the lack of
blitz and the four man pressures and what they want
to win with, that is the perfect guy. So if
that guy you think at the very least has a
profile similar to those guys following to you in the end.

Speaker 1 (46:17):
Of the twenties.

Speaker 2 (46:17):
Go get him, Please go get him, because I'm telling
you right now, like I'm a Derek Harmon Truther.

Speaker 1 (46:23):
I don't think he makes it to thirty at this point.

Speaker 2 (46:25):
But if that man can be in that range, he's
perfect for this defense and he's my favorite DT in
this class. But I brought this up from Richie Fresh.
Thank you so much, Richie for your charitable super chat here.
That is very nice of you. And you say not
to be that guy. But isn't Palmer the guy in
a good amount of games last year at at have
Butterfingers and release Matt Collins. I don't know now. To

(46:46):
my knowledge, Josh Palmer's drops are well at PFF. They
got him charted at let's see here four total drops.
I've seen people say he had one, though PFF has
been weird.

Speaker 1 (46:55):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (46:56):
I had this with Anthony a couple of weeks ago
where we had like completely different stats on some thing.
But I'm looking at PFF's page, so it's probably just
what they charged as a drop versus other stat sites.
They haven't charted at four. But regardless it's still not
a high volume of drops in general.

Speaker 3 (47:09):
If our Profoile Ball reference also has them at four,
by the way, I.

Speaker 2 (47:14):
Think winds up so four fantastic four. So I'm really
excited for that movie. I'll mention it any chance I get.
He's surehanded, and that's something that Bill's value in this offense,
so I'm not sure about butterfingers for him. And then
going to the Mac Collins point that the mac Collins
departure was disappointing to me just because I am a
huge fan of guys that bring vibes to the table.

Speaker 1 (47:37):
I think that does matter.

Speaker 2 (47:38):
Over the course of a long season where guys are
getting worn out and it's very just, you know, oh
man like at the grind of the season, the bang
up nature of a season. But Matt Collins was just
a guy that got down and dirty in the blocking
game and.

Speaker 1 (47:50):
Was an actual reliable target for Josh.

Speaker 2 (47:52):
But when I think of like the one for one
trade off of going from Mac Collins who's thirty one
to a twenty five year old Josh Palmer puts up
similar production, I'm willing to live in that world.

Speaker 1 (48:03):
And look, Matt Collins was.

Speaker 2 (48:04):
A great one year rental for the Bills, but he
I don't think the Bills were going to give him
the money that he got from the Patriots. And frankly,
it's someone that even if you brought him back, would
probably have been on another one or two year deal anyway.
And I think that the role he had in this offense,
as good as he was at it on special teams
on blocking, can be replaced by someone in the draft
or even by someone who still remains on the open market.

(48:27):
So so what are your thoughts on this comment, Matt
Collins or just Josh Palmer, whatever you feel like saying.

Speaker 3 (48:32):
I mean, look, I mean Matt Collins reunites with Josh
McDaniels where he had his best season with the Raiders.
As far as receptions are concerned, I get that, like
it's a it's somewhere where he's going to go and
bring guys like Jalen Pole, Javon Baker, Like they have
a young receiving core there. It certainly looks like he's
going to have opportunity probably to get playing time as

(48:53):
well under Mike Rabels. So like, I don't blame him,
he probably wasn't going to get that type of money
from the Bills. I think the Bills probably would have
given him like a one year, three million dollars something
like that to come back, but for him to get
the two years eight point four, I don't exactly know
how much was guaranteed on that, But like, look, Mac
Collins is a guy that is a journeyman wide receiver

(49:15):
in the NFL. He brings really good locker room energy,
and he's gonna be a guy that, like every cycle,
is going to try to get the most bang for
his buck. And I would be the same if I
was him. So he's not the type of guy who's
gonna get that one big contract and be fine for
his career. Now he's gonna be fine because he keeps
getting these contracts. But like that's the type of thing

(49:37):
that I can't blame a guy like that for going.
Now do we hope he steps on broken glass? I
don't know with those bare feet, but we'll see. Some
people are a little bit bitter about it.

Speaker 1 (49:48):
I don't.

Speaker 3 (49:48):
I'm not bitter. I know, like I don't like the
Patriots whatever, Like it's a new era of the Patriots,
Like it's a different it's a different I feel differently
about the Patriots now than I did, you know, ten
years ago. I obviously still don't like them, but I'm
not going to like have any ill will towards Mac
Collins for going to a division team.

Speaker 1 (50:07):
No, And I like this comment from Timbo.

Speaker 2 (50:09):
Can't blame a millions matter to a guy like that
who hasn't gotten a big contract.

Speaker 1 (50:12):
That's a great point.

Speaker 2 (50:13):
Yeah, it's for someone like a journeyman wide receiver, the
guys that bounce around team to team and just get
a different role like his. The fact that he even
got to a point where he was getting two years
amail is a really nice opportunity.

Speaker 3 (50:25):
For him, So I think, yeah, and I think, but
I think RJ makes a good point, right, It's like
you could have had would you have rather kept Mac
Collins for two years eight nine million or go out
and sign Josh Palmer for the thirty six million? Like
I can understand some of that line of thinking, because
it's like, maybe your asset allocation could have been used elsewhere,
could have been used on a corner, maybe like a

(50:46):
Travarious Ward or a defensive lineman. But that's where we are,
right We signed Josh Palmer, So I can understand that
line of thinking from r J. I do think Josh
Palmer as a receiver is going to be better than
Mac Collins, or should I should say, I don't know
if he will, but he should be. But Matt Collens
did fit in very well with this team, so you
can't discount that. And yeah, we'll see how things play out, right,

(51:09):
But I can't understand that line of thinking for sure.

Speaker 1 (51:11):
Yeah, I like the asset allocation point.

Speaker 2 (51:15):
I think that does matter when you talk about, especially
in a bloated market, trying to find corner death. But
also I'm weird when it comes to corners on the
like again the reason why I want a Sante Samuel
despite the season ending injury, he's still pretty young. That
was kind of my push for Palmer being one of
my top guys, which just he's a younger guy. I'm
okay with giving that money to Palmer, just because again
you talk about giving weapons to Josh Allen and addressing

(51:37):
a need that was pretty pressing as far as how
this offense can move the ball through the air. He
does check a lot of those boxes in theory, and
I think if you do actually get that flash from
him that he's been showing in La on the chargers,
no pun intended, I guess because it's a lightning bolt
that is a very useful addition to your roster, and
I think something that would be worth its weight in gold,
especially when you think of what that would look like

(51:59):
for the market he got versus what the production could
potentially be for him if he does actually pan out.
So that's a wait and see thing. But I'm not
really upset. I mean, again, Hollins, was it like I
was sad just for the vibes. I'm not sad for
the concept of losing him. I think, yeah, replace that.
Richie did follow up with another super chat. Thank you again, Richie,
this is awesome. We appreciate you watching, appreciate all of

(52:20):
you watching. And he says, maybe a stretch, but do
you all think Bean hasn't gotten that big edge rusher
yet because the attitude is quote unquote we have, Josh Allen.
I say this to say, the Eagle showed us how
to beat our nemesis, quote unquote the Hump. That's a
fun way to call the The nickname for the Kansas
City Chiefs is the Hump.

Speaker 1 (52:36):
Till what do you think about this comment?

Speaker 3 (52:41):
I mean, it's not for a lack of trying, right,
as far as like investing in the defensive line right,
like they tried. They signed Von Miller to that huge deal.
They drafted Gregor Russau in the first round. They've brought
in guys like Mario Addison in the past, they brought
in guys like Quentin Jefferson, they brought in the signed
A J. Panessa, They signed Leonard Floyd last year. I

(53:03):
mean A J. Panessa was a second round pick. They
they go out now and go get a Michael Hoyt
like they they've tried, right, They've tried and they've swung,
but they just haven't hit. They just haven't hit on
a lot of these defensive line signings and or draft picks.
Like Greg Russau looks like the best one of the bunch,

(53:23):
and Vaughn situation obviously unfortunate because he was playing well
until that injury, right, and you just wonder what could
have been. So I don't think it's for a lack
of trying from Brandon Bean. I just don't think they've
they've really hit the home run yet. And that's you know,
Gregor Greg Russau looks like a triple to me, But
I don't know that it's a home run. You need
a home run guy. I think that the fact that

(53:47):
you have Josh Allen shouldn't stop you from doing that.
Like all of the like the Eagles and the Chiefs,
the two teams in the Super Bowls Jalen Carter and
Chris Jones, right are I mean, look at those two guys.
They're mental in getting those teams to where they got
to and so and then you look at other teams
who were in the playoffs who had disruptors on the interior,

(54:07):
the LA Rams with Brandon Fisk and their new defensive
like you know, these teams have made investments in the
defensive line. And I think again Pete and I have
talked about this too, Pete Nanna and the comments, like
we've talked about Brandon, mean, he's made swings and they
just haven't always plant panned out. So again, I don't
think it's for a lack of trying. I just think

(54:28):
it's for a lack of hitting.

Speaker 2 (54:30):
Yeah, and a lot of teams have low hit rates
until they don't. I mean, you can even look at
some of the best gms in the league at having
their blunders. Look at Howie Roseman when he got Jaalen
Rigor in the draft that had justin Jefferson, Like, there's blunders, right,
it's just for the Bills. Their unfortunate misses have been
at a position that really is something they rely heavily
on in their scheme duh every year.

Speaker 3 (54:50):
And those positions are expensive to invest in already, so
it's like when you miss on them, it hurts even more.

Speaker 2 (54:57):
No, absolutely, But where it's I think a lot about
twenty twenty two because I think it's also it's like
misguided because it's the assumption that not enough is being done,
whereas I think a lot is being done.

Speaker 1 (55:07):
But is it being done correctly?

Speaker 2 (55:08):
And that goes to that comment we had earlier about
free agency expectations relative to that first day and the
contract's getting signed and all the hype with that versus
what actually ends up happening most of the time. And
it's not to say it never works out, but there's
a lot of situations where it doesn't. And I mean
even the von Miller contract. But that year they get
von Miller, they bring in Tim Settle, de Kwon Jones,

(55:29):
they bring back Jordan Phillips, and Jack Wilson. Brandon Bean,
you know, at Von Miller's contract signing, hugged him and
there's a literal quote of him saying, we beefed up
that D line for you, like that was his whole
goal and intention. So it just didn't work out, and
it's unfortunate. And that is something that you can look at,
Brandon Bean and say, you got to be better at
this because this defensive line play has just not been
good enough.

Speaker 1 (55:49):
And that is an integral part of how this Bill's
defense can really own teams and get over that hump.
Is winning with for it something they just haven't been
able to do, and it's unfortunate, but you can't stop trying.

Speaker 2 (55:59):
Just that hasn't worked either. And that's my thing with
this draft and kind of how they're going about the
rest of free agency is I want to see more
of an investment in the D line that is realistic,
because they're not going to spend again, you know, thirty
million dollars or make a detackle the third highest paid
on the market, but show us some more allocation and
investment into that position because it doesn't work until it does.

(56:20):
And maybe this is the year that they draft someone
who actually takes it to a new level and you
have what.

Speaker 1 (56:26):
You want and can finally make that change.

Speaker 3 (56:28):
And I think that's why a lot of people wanted
to see a trade because I think they looked at
Brandon Bean's track record in the draft in when it
came to defensive linemen, and it hasn't been spectacular, right,
And so going after a guy that's a proven commodity,
proven NFL commodity, elite NFL commodity maybe was more attractive
to people because you know that. Then if he comes

(56:50):
in and he flops, then it's like, well, then there's
something wrong maybe with you know, the coach, whatever the
case may be. But like I do think that's why
some people lean towards trade versus draft because the track
crecord for Britna Mean and drafting defensive lineman has been
spotty at best, like Boogie Bash and was a bust.
Ajvanessa's solid as a second rounder, but not great. Greg

(57:12):
Russou a triple I would say, So it's been good,
but it hasn't been great, I would say, And so yeah,
we'll see, like do we trust him to make the
right call in the draft when it comes to the
defensive lineman. That's another question to ask, right, So, yeah,
it's all well and good if you if you draft him,
but you got to draft the right guy too. So
it's tough. It's the draft is tough.

Speaker 1 (57:34):
It is tough.

Speaker 2 (57:35):
It's a crapshoot, and I totally agree, and I get
the frustrations. I'm also on the mindset that, Okay, let's
say you did make that trade for Miles Garrett and
you had to pay Miles Garrett. Now, how does that
limit you in other spots? What draft capital did you
have to give up? And maybe you got the proven thing,
but was that enough individually to shore out the rest
of your roster and get you over the hump? Because, yeah,

(57:55):
you got one of the best defensive linemen in football,
and I'm a huge fan of him. But also, did
that make it so that we lost out on maybe
getting a top tier corner. Does that make it that
now these picks have to fall into later rounds and
even though the Bills have been typically good, there are
these players going to be impactful? Are you able to
pay free agents in the future decent enough contracts to
raise that four of your team and provide support for

(58:16):
that player. There is a risk with something like that too,
and also the guy is thirty years old, so you're
also wondering, hey, when does the cliff come for him?
Because for von Miller, when they made that signing for him,
I believe at the time he was thirty two years
old and now here you are a few years later
seeing the age catch up to him. And you never
know when that cliff is coming for somebody. So it's

(58:37):
not to say don't make the move, and I'm not
against it. I would have been happy, but rather you
do have to keep in mind that everything is a risk,
whether it's drafting or making that player. And for me,
I don't mind living in a world where you take
the swing for the prospects because in turn, if they
don't pan out, it's not really costing you much.

Speaker 1 (58:53):
You get the opportunity to try again without having to.

Speaker 2 (58:55):
Do a toll, a total rebuild, and some really difficult
cap decision making. It's well, this defensive end didn't work out,
Let's try again and hopefully it works this time. And
I'm hoping that it works this year. As Richie, again,
thank you so much. This is awesome, like truly truly
appreciate This just frustrated because we're arguably headed into Allen's
halfway career mark and we're watching hurt Stafford fulls with

(59:17):
super bowls before Alan.

Speaker 1 (59:18):
That's funny and I get this so much.

Speaker 2 (59:21):
And you know, again it hasn't worked out the way
they wanted it to. I don't think it's for a
lack of trying, as you've said here, and it's just
something where they have to get it working in the draft.
That's where it's going to stem from. You can make
that big trade, you can make that big signing, but
you do have to hit the home run, like these
teams that have been able to win the Super Bowl
have been able to do, and the Bills.

Speaker 1 (59:41):
Just haven't yet. And can they. I don't know. You know,
that's a question that they have to answer. Brandon Bean
is not blameless in this matter.

Speaker 2 (59:48):
He has to prove that his first round pick can
be a difference maker because so far the past, well,
Kean Coleman's on a first round pick, but you look
at the other two and Donton Kikaid and Kyrie Euhaman.
There's very soon serious question marks about both players right now,
so it has to be better. I agree and I
get fan frustration, but I don't think the frustration ask the.

Speaker 3 (01:00:09):
Point of a question mark. By the way, he's.

Speaker 2 (01:00:11):
Yeah, yeah, I'm being nice. He's probably gone, but it's
there's work to be done. There's more to prove for
Brandon Bean and I think that's on the way. But
will he get it done? Will we actually see that
difference maker in the draft?

Speaker 1 (01:00:26):
I hope.

Speaker 2 (01:00:27):
So that's where I'll leave it till I'll bring turn
it back to you before we get to the final
topic of tonight's episode.

Speaker 1 (01:00:32):
Any other thoughts on that?

Speaker 3 (01:00:34):
Now, let's get let's get to it all right.

Speaker 1 (01:00:36):
Extensions.

Speaker 2 (01:00:37):
So, a big part of the new cycle for the
Buffalo Bills prior to signing their two free agents were
the extensions that they made in Khalil Shakir, Torell Bernard,
Greg Russo, Reid Ferguson, which is obviously the most important one.

Speaker 1 (01:00:51):
Shout out to Reid Ferguson.

Speaker 2 (01:00:53):
And of course Josh Allen, who is making record setting
money all necessary and moves that I approve just for
the fact that they got to them ahead of the
curve and in my opinion, got great value on every
single player, including Josh.

Speaker 1 (01:01:07):
What do you think about these moves, David, you can.

Speaker 2 (01:01:08):
Highlight anyone you want of this list, but what were
your thoughts on Brandon Bead's approach to these extensions and
do you think more on the way with either Benford
or James Cook.

Speaker 3 (01:01:18):
You know, it's funny because we talk about, like do
the Bills even have any elite players outside of Josh Allen,
And like James Cook and Christian Benford might be the
two that have the claim to be the closest to
being elite outside of Josh Allen. But then you do
have to keep your core intact, right. You have Shakir,
ben Bernard, Rousseau, and Josh Allen's contracts specifically opened up

(01:01:39):
the cap space relief in twenty twenty five. Obviously, Bernard
and Shakir sort of you know, in theory will open
up things or reduce the cost that would have been
in future years. But all of these are core guys
to this team right now, Like Torol Bernard's a captain.
We saw his press conference the other day. I think
I haven't had a chance to watch the video yet,

(01:02:00):
but I think they released a video this evening around
behind the scenes on his contract extension and So to me,
it's like, on the offensive side of the ball, you
lock up. You already had Josh locked up, but obviously
gets the record and guaranteed money, essentially throws out his
four year deal that he had four years left he
had on his deal, replace it with a new six

(01:02:22):
year contract, sets the record for guaranteed money, but still
only puts him at thirteenth AAV when it comes to
contract value per year. So kind of a win for
both sides, right, Josh gets the guaranteed money, but also
gives the Bill's flexibility as a team to continue to
build around him. Gets Shakir. They're clearly their best receiver
in the mix now for future years. Stefan Diggs long gone,

(01:02:46):
Shakuiir is now the best receiver. That's not even a
question in my mind. And then on the defensive side,
you do have there were some question marks of whether
or not you should or should not have extended Greg Russo,
I think the money was right for him. I think
it's a fair deal for him. I thought he was
gonna get closer to maybe twenty five million a year,
So getting the twenty and what else did you have

(01:03:06):
in the room of your the bills. You didn't have
anything else. Von Miller's gone. Aj Panessa is not that dude.
He's a good rotational piece. Russeau is your best defensive end.
You had to keep him. You had to, like they
were in a corner. They had to do it. And
then Bernard, as I said, a captain now kind of
leading this defense with the green dot, getting guys in

(01:03:27):
the right spot. His size does concern me a little
as far as like picking up nagging injuries like we
saw this year. But man, the guy plays with heart.
He's instinctual and certainly a leader on the team. So
all of these make a ton of sense to me.
And yeah, happy they all got done before free agency started.

Speaker 1 (01:03:45):
Agreed completely.

Speaker 2 (01:03:46):
It's a group that I think everyone was not only
well deserving of the payday, but I love the fact
that it kind of is a two way street of
you get your money for the value that you've given us.
But I think, you know, the thing I really do
like about brand I mean that I'll always praise him
for is how he sets these contracts up where we're
going to get you before you really ascend into a value,
at least most of the time, before you really ascend

(01:04:08):
into significant value where it becomes more difficult to negotiate
and retain you long term, and in turn, we're banking
on the next step in your development, where if it happens,
this deal is of insane value to us the team,
But if it doesn't happen, then the contract is still
relative to the production we've been getting from you. So
it's not like a total waste of investment or a
waste of money. I mean, at Oliver kind of set

(01:04:31):
this precedent. You know, they've extended other people, but at
Oliver is a great example of it, because when they
extended him, you were like, yeah, I get it, and
this isn't crazy money, So I'm totally on board with this.
The year following he has the best year of his
career and all of a sudden that contract is absurdly.

Speaker 1 (01:04:45):
Good value and you love it.

Speaker 2 (01:04:47):
And now with Khalilshakir, who I think it just was
a great rate to begin with, and I think you're
going to get a similar kind of season from him.

Speaker 1 (01:04:54):
That's also money.

Speaker 2 (01:04:55):
To Rell Bernard, you know, in the second year of starting,
comes back from some injuries but played mostly well. I
think you got him at a great rate considering what
the linebacker market has kind of turned into. Greg Russeau
is my favorite one of the lists because that's a
great point you mentioned about well, he is literally one
of the only edge rushers you have left.

Speaker 1 (01:05:11):
Please lock him down.

Speaker 2 (01:05:12):
But Greg Russo to me, is the most likely to
springboard from this deal to someone who is more worth
this contract and makes it look even more valuable because
he is twenty four years old, he's still developing as
a player. He was a massive project and each year
has added incremental steps in his development. And I think
in turn, if you actually address the deficiencies of this

(01:05:33):
defensive line where you actually do find that no tackle
or one tech and you find the interior support to
really create more pressure, the first person on the outside
that's eating off of that is Gregory Rousseau, and he's
going to be more productive and he is going to
feast off that because he already has good numbers when
it comes to pressures and pass must productivity, so it's

(01:05:54):
not like he isn't generating any sort of production there,
and you already have the stout defense on the edge
as far as run goes.

Speaker 1 (01:06:00):
So he's someone that could really.

Speaker 2 (01:06:03):
See benefiting at the very least from that approach to
building the d line, and the Bills will benefit from
him blossoming because of that, which is why I think
investment in the defensive line is even more paramount this
offseason and something I'm hoping we see both in free
agency and the draft.

Speaker 1 (01:06:18):
But read Ferguson. I'm just kidding. It's read Ferguson.

Speaker 2 (01:06:22):
It's I'm happy they retained him, and I'm happy that
we're past parking lot for Reid Ferguson.

Speaker 3 (01:06:26):
He's just the least long snapper contracts haven't gotten out
of control yet.

Speaker 2 (01:06:29):
No, you know, I'm fully expecting, you know, if I'm
still doing this show in twenty forty six, the long
snapper market turning into like fifteen million a year, and
it's gonna be the funniest shit ever. And we're gonna
cite this one day and just be like, oh my god,
I can't believe it actually got to that point. But
I'm a fan of all these deals. None of them
scream anything to insane to me. And then the Josh
Allen contract to kind of rework it to be able

(01:06:52):
to have it so that you get the two years
for him and you kind of extend his value to
give him the contract deserves while still making it that
the cap hits are more painable at stretch thin or thinner.
I should say, over the long term, it's good for
both parties and Josh Allen was more than deserving of that.
And the bill's gone on it now because you wait
another year or two, the value only goes up, even

(01:07:12):
if the salary cap is going up, and even if
you have more room. I would rather get on that
now and have that number locked down so that when
the cap space increases, you're going to be able to
have more flexibility and hopefully be able to still be
wide open and free agency and get as many people
players pieces as you can. But David, I feel like
I'm running out of gas here. You got anything else

(01:07:33):
before we sign off for the rest of the night.

Speaker 3 (01:07:36):
No, this has been a good one. Really nice to
dive into sort of a little bit of a different
angle than we took on Air Raid Hour last night.
So definitely was a fun conversation. Comment section was feeling
it too, so a lot of good opinions there and
good to see some familiar faces as well. Yeah, comment section,

(01:07:56):
they always bring it so good job everything. Bring it.

Speaker 1 (01:07:58):
Yeah, you guys have been awesome to night.

Speaker 2 (01:08:00):
I appreciate every single one of you checking us out
this evening. Before we sign off, before you go anywhere,
listen to my spiel about the Cover one Insiders, because
I want to shout all you guys out that joined
us tonight who are in our discord to check the
link out. I appreciate each and every one of you.
If you are interested in becoming an insider, then the
link to the one pass sign up page is in

(01:08:20):
the description below. For just sixty Crescent Chards, you have
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(01:08:41):
to year basis for each and every one of you
in all of our content, whether that is the videos
post produced, whether that is the.

Speaker 1 (01:08:46):
Live shows, all that content is not possible without each
and every one of you.

Speaker 2 (01:08:51):
So if you are interested in signing up, go ahead
and check that out below. It is well worth your
time if you are a Bills fan looking to have
more access to our network and to the content create.
Thank you all who have already signed up, and for
all of you who checked us out tonight, thank you
so much. As Spin weaves, which, by the way, as
I've said many weeks, Spin is the devil on my shoulder. Sorry,
I'm slacking. I didn't get to roast Joe today. Spin,

(01:09:13):
you're slipping, so I'm gonna roast you. Get it together.
What the hell is wrong with you? Come on, this
is unacceptable, Hie.

Speaker 1 (01:09:21):
You got all this.

Speaker 3 (01:09:21):
Roasting unjudge Olt last night. Maybe that's why I'm tired.

Speaker 2 (01:09:24):
This is messed up. I wait for this every week.
It's the bright part of the show and you didn't
even bring it this week.

Speaker 1 (01:09:29):
You're slipping. You're slipping. I'm mosing faith in you.

Speaker 2 (01:09:32):
I might trade you for a six round pick maybe
even a seventh if you keep regressing. But all of you,
Thank you all so much for being here.

Speaker 1 (01:09:39):
This was awesome. I had a ton of fun. David.
I know they know where to find you.

Speaker 2 (01:09:43):
But for the people that might have checked us out
after the fact, maybe haven't checked our network out give
them the good word on what you got going on
for the foreseeable future.

Speaker 3 (01:09:52):
Yeah, Air eight hour right now with me and Judge
is Monday nights at nine. We're going to be starting
our deep dive in the positional pre views for the
Draft these next several weeks, focusing on areas of need
for the Bills, so edge, interior, D line, corner, wide, receiver,
and we may even sprinkle safety in there as well.

(01:10:12):
So you've got that to look forward to on the
Air eight hour coming up, and of course we'll stay
in tune with all any, any and all new free
agent signings and around the NFL as well. So Monday
night's nine pm and you can get a replay from
last night is out now on podcast as well.

Speaker 1 (01:10:29):
Absolutely check them out, guys. Air Raids an awesome show.

Speaker 2 (01:10:31):
Judge and David do amazing work for our network and
just in general, you know, great people to follow during
these trying off season times if you want some good
perspective and insight on the free agent class, but also
the draft class. They do a lot of great work there.
The Draft content is ramping up over here on Cover one, folks.
It's that time of the year, it's Christmas year round
when it's draft season, even though that's not the whole year.

(01:10:52):
But I just love the draft so much. I'm willing
to be wrong and it's going to be ramping up
on this show as well. I'm gearing up to do
some mock drafts as well as some prospect covering on
the show too. Our network is doing deep dives into everybody.
The Film Room is going to be doing some stuff.
I know Greg and Aaron got some stuff planned, so
stick around for that again. David, thank you so much
for me. You guys can find me on Twitter at

(01:11:12):
show Underscore de Rosa. I'm here every Tuesday night seven
thirty or seven thirty five pm to have this show
with all of you. I am also now producing for
Eric and Anthony on the Film Room, which is going
on every Wednesday, so if you have not checked that out,
feel free to check that out. And I may or
may not be on the C one Buff podcast this week,
so check that out as well tomorrow night. But everybody,

(01:11:34):
you guys are wonderful. We truly appreciate you. Thank you
for making this an awesome show this week.

Speaker 1 (01:11:39):
You always do.

Speaker 2 (01:11:40):
We'll be back next week, but stay tuned for hopefully
more free agency signings and more news on the bills front.
But for us, we will bid you a due say
good night, and as.

Speaker 1 (01:11:49):
Always, go bills. Take care of your bills.

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Bills Sign Josh Palmer, Michael Hoecht - A Free Agency Recap! | UR

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Bills Sign Josh Palmer, Michael Hoecht - A Free Agency Recap! | UR