In this episode of The Unicorny Marketing Show, Jules Beriff, UK Marketing Director at ESET UK, reveals how businesses can build trust as a cornerstone for brand resilience.
Jules explains why trust internally—within teams and leadership—and externally, with customers and partners, is crucial for navigating crises and driving sustainable growth.
What you'll learn:
- The role of brand awareness in securing long-term customer loyalty
- Tips for fostering trust between marketing leaders and finance teams
- Insights into flat organisational structures that promote autonomy and collaboration
- How shared experiences and community-driven events spark channel partner loyalty
Don't miss this episode for a masterclass in turning challenges into opportunities. Listen now to better approach to brand strategy!
About Jules Berriff
Jules Berriff graduated with a degree in Economics and Master’s in Cultural Management from Northumbria University.
Jules started working for the University on international projects whilst studying, moved into film, was seconded to BAFTA, and then, seduced by a job title, hopped into the old Business Link Service. After being made redundant, she spent a year in legal work focused on offices in the Middle East before returning to the cultural sector with the Science Museum Group. Jules then moved to English Heritage as Territory Marketing Manager for the North of England, before joining the Continuum Group in 2016 as Head of Sales, Marketing, and Brand Experience. Jules now works in the very different but exciting world of cybersecurity.
Jules has a commercial head on creative shoulders and adores marketing, relishing the complex and conflicting mix of data science overlaid with creativity that, when done right, can yield fantastic results.
Links
Full show notes: Unicorny.co.uk
Watch the episode: https://youtu.be/PdZXTe7BNWs
LinkedIn: Jules Berriff FCIM | Dom Hawes
Website: ESET UK
Sponsor: Selbey Anderson
Other items referenced in this episode:
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Having witnessed them gothrough quite a catastrophic incident
this year, their brand is thething I would argue that has saved
them. We run quite a brutal360 program, so there's no hiding
from you being an asshole. Youmight be performing really well,
but if you're a dick, you'regoing to be called out on it twice
a year. The doors always open,call. And they do anytime, day or
(00:24):
night.
Presumably when they come inwith the door is open. You don't
say you forgot to knock?
No, no, I don't have an office.
Hey folks, and welcome to TheUnicorny Marketing show. I'm your
(00:46):
host Dom Hawes and today weare exploring the art and the science
of building brands thatresonate, retain and really matter.
And if I alliterate like thatagain, you have my permission to
find me in the street and hitme. But today we're joined by Jules
Berriff. She is UK MarketingDirector at ESET, the cyber security
company trusted by millionsworldwide. And Jules is a master
(01:09):
of navigating competitivemarkets with limited resources, something
I think we can probably allrelate to, especially in such austere
times. Not going to make acomment about the government. Today
she is delivering us amasterclass in turning those kinds
of challenges intoopportunities. And I think that what
makes this episode sounmissable is the focus on trust.
(01:32):
Jules is going to walk usthrough how investing in brand resilience
acts as a kind of insurancepolicy. Helping businesses weather
crises while keeping customersas close as possible. She's also
going to share how fosteringtrust internally with our own teams,
leaders, leadership teams, butalso our channel partners is the
(01:52):
secret source for sustainablesuccess. And here's the kicker. We're
not just going to be talkingabout strategy and frameworks today.
We're going to be diving intothe multiplier effect of shared experience.
Jules is going to explain howa single event like ESET's partner
conference can spark years andyears of loyalty and collaboration.
(02:13):
From reimagining channelmarketing, to crafting community
driven events, to building abrand that punches way above its
weight in very, very resourceconstrained environments. This episode
today is packed with reallyuseful things to take away. In short,
I think it's kind of yourroadmap to balancing your short term
wins with with your long termgains. I'm not going to waffle anymore
(02:35):
because Jules can tell youstraight from the unicorn's mouth.
Let's go straight to the studio.
Hello, how are you? I'm good.
And you've been down andLondon for.
A couple of days.
I Have lots of meetings backto back. A little bit of social,
which is nice.
Good.
Didn't drink too many ginslast night.
Didn't.
Didn't. Okay.
Okay.
Just thought I'd share. I'mvery glad you've made time for us
because we had a pre call aswe always do before the unicorny
(03:01):
podcast recording sessions andwe got stuck in some really interesting
stuff which we're going totalk about today. And we're going
to start with the B word brandand really the importance of long
term brand building which whenwe got together you felt was often
overlooked and it's a subjectwe've touched.
On before but you had some really.
Interesting angles on it. So Ithink it's really good, a good idea
(03:24):
for us to, to. To dive in aschat GPT might say the base premise
we're starting with is thatthat or that you and I would start
with because we're marketersis that long term brand building
is essential.
Agreed.
But it's not always seen that way.
Not everyone agrees. Why not?
I think because you can'ttangibly measure it.
(03:44):
Okay.
There is no direct output. Andin this world of performance marketing,
I think we've almost forgotabout the value of building brands.
Okay.
Which for me as a marketer isreally sad. And when you look around
and see the success of somebusinesses like for instance Octopus
Energy, who I had the fortuneof watching on stage at Marketing
(04:07):
Week recently, they are amarketing up marketing first business
and have grown exponentially.And not only are they growing, people
love the brand and they'vedone it. Or what I've observed is
they've done it in a way wherethe look and feel is isn't an energy
(04:28):
company. It speaks to theircustomers and their customer service
is phenomenal. I'm a customer.
Yeah.
I used to be one of theircompetitors customers. I will never
change because I can pick upthe phone and speak directly to them.
So I think in amongst thebrand building is also the product
side of things and alsotreating your customers really well.
(04:49):
Yeah, they've built a reallygood reputation to that they didn't
get my business, I must say.Someone else was five pounds cheaper.
So that's the price point.But, but, but it was a really hard
choice because I know, I knowinstinctively I guess because they've
done their branding well, whatthey stand for and that the service
is brilliant. I mean utilitieswas an area I guess that was ripe
for that because traditionallycertainly the received wisdom is
(05:13):
that customer service andutilities is terrible. So they've
Done really well there inbusiness to business maybe not so
much. I mean I think thenature of the relationships is slightly
different and I think some ofthe people that we come across would
argue that brand in a B2Benvironment is a kite mark and not
(05:35):
much more.
I would disagree.
Yeah, tell me why.
I think you can draw anexample. So I currently work for
a cybersecurity organizationwhich operates globally and our competition
is fierce and I look at othercompanies, our competitors who are
spending on their brand hugeamounts of investment. Huge. Their
(05:57):
brand is well known, it'sliked as seen as the cool kind of
company to be purchasing forleading edge, cutting edge, using
all the right terminology etcin their, in their marketing and
communications. But havingwitnessed them go through quite a
catastrophic incident thisyear, their brand is the thing I
(06:19):
would argue that has savedthem. And I think when talking to
CMOs, CBOs, that's a reallyvalid point and a proof point of
what, what the power of, of abrand. So not just in the building
and the reputation and the,the exposure of an organization but
(06:40):
actually how it can save abusiness when shit hits the fan.
It does buy you an enormousamount of goodwill, doesn't it? You
do that stuff well and we'renot going to name them because we
wouldn't want to give themeven one reference. But that sounds
something like Cloud Mike,something like that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So. But they did an amazing. Imean when that happened I thought
this company's dead same. Buthow do you come back from something
(07:00):
like this? But I looked whenwe were on, when we were on the line
online before on the line, asthough there's only one. When we
were online before I looked attheir stock price and it's actually
almost recovered now to, topre event which is extraordinary.
I mean it is extraordinary. Sothe base premise we've got so far
is your brand building isimportant especially I think in business
(07:20):
to business at the moment wedon't need to make the case in consumer
brand work because theyalready get it. How does investing
in brand development thoughimpact a company's growth compared
to someone who's prioritizingshort term?
I'm going to quote Ritson hereand we all know the 95.5rule, but
95% of our buy and we know thebuying cycle in B2B is anything from
(07:43):
a year up to five yearsdepending on contracts that were
in place previously. And whenwe think that 95% of your customers,
right now our customers, yourcustomers aren't in the position
to buy. So we've got 5% toplay with. Great. How? Without really
investing in brand, withoutlooking at that exposure, without
(08:04):
saying the right things,without making people feel that,
you know, X, Y and Z brand isa great brand to buy. They're doing
the right things becauseevermore we're invested in that as
well. Their purpose is goodand we like their product. You know,
in my case, their technologysound, we like what they do. They've
got history, they've gotrelevance, they've got credentials
(08:24):
sat behind them, they'reworking with companies that I can't
name but you know, really bigorganizations that trust them and
know them. Without talkingabout all of that loudly and proudly
and investing in it, how isthat 95% of the market going to even
be conscious of the fact thatwhoever your brand is exists when
they're at the point of purchase?
(08:45):
Well, they won't, will they?
They won't.
Yeah. And we also know fromthe same body of research that when
they do put a short listtogether, they've almost always decided
who's going to win itbeforehand. Yes, blimey. So we have
to do that work in brandbuilding. And so the challenge we
have is that all the thingsyou've talked about can be quite
expensive, but particularly ifyou're putting a media budget behind
(09:08):
something, justifying theexpenditure, sometimes hard, really
expensive.
And I think, you know, I'vedone this for over 20 years now.
I was in the space before wehad Facebook advertising or digital
advertising and that makes mesound really old. And we were buying
billboards and deciding whichside of the road we needed to buy
our billboard on, depending onwhich way the traffic was going to
whatever destination orwhatever it is that we were selling
(09:29):
at the time. I think we'vemoved to such a point of short term
thinking of the next quarter.The next quarter, the next quarter.
Performance marketing. Feedthe pipe, Feed the pipe. What's the
roi? What are we getting backoff? Every pound we forgot about
the importance of brand andwhat that brings, but also buying
(09:52):
into a long term strategy. AndI also think that as organizations
sometimes it's gone wrong. Andrather than accepting and learning
from the things that have gonewrong in perhaps a brand exercise,
taking stock, reevaluating,starting again, it's almost been
put in the bin and written offas this just doesn't work. And it
(10:14):
needs time, it needs time tobreathe, it needs time to grow, you
need to be optimizing all thetime. Did that work? And also it's
not just the investment in themedia buy and the Production and
the creative. But how are youmeasuring that? Because that's an
expensive business as well.
We know it's expensive, ofcourse, to build a brand. I mean,
we're going to talk a littlebit later, I think, about some other
(10:35):
ways of doing things thatdon't involve just buying media.
But we all have budgets, weall have a certain amount of money
we're allocated in order todeliver the return. But. And those
budgets are generally createdand or approved by financially focused
execs, CEOs or CFOs who don'talways understand the impact or the
(10:58):
importance of brandinvestments. Is there a way that
we can demonstrate tangiblevalue or how do we have that conversation?
I'm not sure, other than usingexamples in the marketplace. And
I've sat through many apresentation of. Please, Mr. Finance
Director, can I have X, Y,what am I going to get back off it?
(11:19):
Well, I think the mostimportant thing when putting your
case across is having a reallytrusting relationship with your finance
director. It's reallyunfortunate in the position that
I'm in now. Our head offinance is great, great guy. But
in previous role, where I wasfor six years, I had the fortune
(11:40):
to work with a very Yorkshire.Okay, Andrew was a Yorkshireman through
and through. Sorry for namingyou. Andrew and I had a great relationship
with him. And he would ask meevery year, we'd sit down, well,
what am I going to get backoff this? I'm like, we're not. Not
right now, but without it. Ifear for the future of our performance
(12:04):
marketing. And also your brandmarketing fuels your performance
marketing ultimately.Fortunately, in that role, I worked
with some really big brands.We worked with the suite of ITV brands,
so Coronation Street,Emmerdale, et cetera, et cetera.
And, and we're able toleverage that to really great effect.
So I think, how do you put ittogether? I think examples of best
(12:25):
practice where you've seen ithappening, but I think you've got
to have trust with your fd.They've got to be bought into you
as a human being and yourability to execute.
And what responsibility do youthink marketers have for helping
either? I was going to saydevelop, but that sounds a bit presumptuous.
But develop the lexiconcertainly of other executives. Because
(12:46):
I've on other podcasts, lesserpodcasts, obviously, I've, I've heard,
I've heard advice.
That says, oh, don't use the word.
Brand in the boardroom becausepeople think you're a marketer. And
it's such duff advice. I cansee by the way, you're screwing your
face up. You hate that.
I hate that. Yeah, I hatethat. And I think so. In my early
(13:07):
career, I had the fortune ormisfortune of working for a law firm
and I was referred to as thecoloring in corner.
Oh, God.
Yeah. That made me angry. AndI'm looking around and I'm like,
these are really talentedpeople that know their shit, that
understand the sales cycle,that understand the business. And
(13:28):
I think the reputation ofmarketeers is something that I'm
very passionate about becausewe are not. I would argue that most
of the people that I work withare really smart, really articulate,
understand communications in away that no other department in a
business will, and have a lotof value to add. And I've probably
been a bit pushy in the pastthat I've muscled my way into conversations
(13:50):
that I wasn't invited to or Iwasn't invited to the table. But
I've always had a lot to sayand I'm interested in the success
of a business. So, you know,whether that is product, whether
that is the people that we'rehiring, whether that is the revenue
and the P L. I've wanted to beinvolved in that. So to say that
brand isn't. Isn't invited tothe board table, I think is. Is really
(14:14):
naive.
It is. And I think, look, Ilove lawyers. Me and lawyers, we
love each other. If they callyou the coloring in department, I
think, you know, I would havejust called them value sponges and
see what seem they thoughtabout that. And some of my best friends
are lawyers. It's fine, but.
But it's a good point, right?
If they don't. I actually havea real problem with that whole coloring
(14:36):
in thing because. And we'vetalked about it on this podcast a
little bit. Partly we've doneit to ourselves because we've created
these large departments, theoutput of which is stuff, and what
the organization sees is thestuff. So a brochure or a website
or.
A this or that with a good.
Color scheme and good words.And while they might not understand
the nuance or thesophistication of the communication
(14:57):
in it to the rest of theorganization, it's stuff. That's
the stuff department. So Ithink part of it might be that. Part
of it, I think, is that wehaven't pushed hard enough in the
other direction to explain tothe rest of the business why marketing
matters so much and how muchvalue it creates. I think. I mean,
you mentioned 95.5rule, andthere's the long and short of it.
And there's all this othersort of effectiveness research now
(15:19):
that I think really does. Iwouldn't go as far as to call it
science, but it does help uscommunicate value. And I think it's
our job to, to, to take thatrole on internally.
And I think the science partis really interesting. I think everybody,
the perception of marketingthrough and through is the creative
people. And I'm like, yeah,okay, to a certain degree. But also
(15:42):
the data analytics, thescience, the research. And actually
when I talk around mydepartment, we talk around the team
in there, they get reallyexcited about a data set that tells
them something and things.That the perception of the marketing
team, that is the graphicdesigner or the copywriter, it's
not, it's that. And this isthe beauty of marketing, isn't it?
(16:04):
It's that real heavy datascience like smooshed in with creativity,
hopefully to create an amazingoutput and then that has commercial
value.
But the graphic design and thecopy, that's the, that's the bit
that sits above the water.That's what they see, right? That
it's built on. They don't get.Yeah, poor them. We can educate them
(16:25):
though before we move on.Slightly thinking about kind of CFOs.
You said you have a greatrelationship. What advice would you
have for other marketingleaders who don't yet have a strong
relationship with finance? Howdo they go about bridging that? Where
do they start?
You got to understand the waythe finance mind works and it's probably
not the same as the way thatthe creative mind works or the sales
(16:46):
guy. And I think what I foundin my career is like speaking their
language and also having yourdata. There's no point. I have been
criminal of it in the past. Iwant to do this really great thing.
Was going to cost loads of money.
Right.
That's never going to get overthe line. So that ability to take
a step back and say why, how,how long, how much, what is actually
(17:12):
the financial plan in terms ofspend, do you need it all right now
or is it a drip feed into herewith you know, what does that look
like? So coming armed, I thinkthat reassurance of. I've thought
about it. I've really thoughtabout it. I know why, I know who.
And this is my business case.I'll take questions. Yeah. And then
being ready and armed with theinformation to be able to.
(17:33):
So you nailed it. Businesscase. Gotta have a business case,
right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So if you don't have that,then basically you're Screwed.
And even to the smallerthings, you know, I am the gatekeeper
in our organization of areally healthy marketing development
fund that sales guys can tapinto even if they're asking for a
grand. I'm asking them why.Yeah, because it's really easy and
(17:57):
spend a thousand pounds, isn'tit? But why? And I think it's not
just about the output. It'sgetting into that rhythm of thinking
about what am I trying toachieve? Who is this going to help?
Even if there's no tangibleoutput now, like what's your long
play on it? And I just thinkthat that thought process is quite
solid.
So that's exactly what I do.Fun enough internally here. In my
(18:20):
day job. I say here becausewe're in the building. But in my,
in my day job, if someonewants to go in, in our case, for
example, sponsor a channelevent and we have an occasion like
this where the leader of oneof my units wanted to. Three questions
to answer. What's the shortterm opportunity this will create?
What's the long termopportunity this will create? And
(18:42):
how is this going to be amultiplier for your business? And
if they can answer those threethings and ask them. Well, and what
I look for is I look for arevenue short term, I want enough
revenue to cover the cost ofthe event just so that the cash flow
is covered.
Yes.
In the long term, I want toknow there's a multiplier that makes
sense from a, an ebitda, aprofit, profit level. And then the
(19:03):
multiplier is the otherintangibles that sit alongside it.
And that works. It does workwell. So the approach seems to work.
The activity doesn't always.
Right, right.
It's never a slam dunk.
But then I'm also notfrightened of failure. So let's try,
you know, if there's soundrationale. But we're still like,
we're not sure what's theworst that can happen. We lose a
(19:25):
thousand pounds. Okay. What dowe learn? Like what's the learning
off the back of that, youknow, and don't just write it off
of, you know, that was. Sitdown, let's have a talk about it.
What went well? Well, therewasn't the right people there. So
what do we need to be lookingat next time? Or there wasn't the
opportunities or the leadsthat we were looking for. Okay, fine,
let's talk about it. Let'stake the learnings. Let's not be
frightened to, to fail. Yeah.And again, you know, I try and foster
(19:48):
that culture within the teamof let's have a go.
Speaking of that, it's almostas if you magically segued into where
I wanted to go next, which isabout empowering your team and about
how you set your team up forsuccess. You've had a very good 12
to 18 months, I believe.
Yeah, we have.
Good.
Really good.
You've got a really flat orgstructure. Yes, talk to me about
(20:10):
that. That's like, that'slike. That's counterculture when
it comes to B2B.
I've worked in manyorganizations over the years, some
with huge amounts ofhierarchy. And it niggled me, I think
that I couldn't have access tothe marketing director because I
had to go through threedifferent people to speak to him
or her. But that's nonsense. Ijust want to talk to him. And it
(20:32):
was. Or her. It was him,actually. The company I'm talking
about at the moment, I want totalk to him. Well, no, you need to
come through here and then youneed to come through here. And I'm
like, my message is going toget diluted by the time it gets there.
And I want that relationshipas well. So it niggled me. And then
you go to other places and yousee other structures and there's
things that you like and youdon't like about it. In my. The role
(20:56):
before this, we had a reallyunique setup in that we had a central
marketing function and then wehad eight satellite businesses. So
we had a really great, greatcentral marketing function. Me, web
designer, you know,specialists in their fields, pr,
et cetera, et cetera. And thenwe had small marketing teams on site.
Okay.
(21:17):
So we were, we were. Thesupport office worked really nicely.
The temptation to centralizeall of that marketing into head office
was like always there. And Iplayed with it a few times and I
really realized that unlessyou are on the front line, you don't
know your market. So we, weleft those guys to be the conduit
(21:37):
to, you know, being on theground. And, and it worked. It worked
for a long time. But thetemptation was always there. I walked
in, I had the fortune ormisfortune of walking into the role
that I'm in now three yearsago, to essentially a pile of rubble.
The marketing departmentwasn't in a good place. People had
left. We were lackingexperience and skill, both in terms
(21:57):
of marketing, but both interms of cybersecurity. My background's
not tech, so this was like awhole new world to me. And we started
a really large recruitmentdrive and I wanted to be Close to
the people. I wanted to beclose to the people that I was gonna
be working with. And I justdidn't want to put that hierarchical
structure in. In what wasmeant to be quite a small team at
(22:19):
the time. The team is compactin size, but really broad in terms
of what we're delivering. Soit was recruiting specialists in
fields. So I needed a graphicdesigner, we needed a copywriter,
I needed a channel marketingmanager. We needed somebody to do
events, we needed somebody tolook after the enterprise side and
the structure. I just couldn'tmake a structure work out of it either.
(22:41):
You know, why would we havethe events person reporting into
the enterprise guy? It justdidn't work. So I was like, right,
okay, everybody's reportingin. There's no hierarchy. We make
decisions as a team. It'sgreat for a while until you get to
the point where there's morepeople coming in and more people
coming in and more peoplecoming in. And then my workload starts
to. Yeah, yeah. So I reallyfelt it last year, but. But I believe
(23:06):
it works.
So how many, how many directreports do you have now?
Some of the guys that are inthe team, we've now pushed into different
departments with dotted linesin. So the online business manager
is. Was reporting directly andshe now runs the whole of the online
business doing a cracking job,responsible for all the marketing
and the revenue. So she's adotted line now, which is fantastic.
(23:27):
So it's a similar approach, acentral resource with locally enabled.
Yeah, yeah.
People in the division.
Nice.
Yeah.
So you and Jensen Wang havesomething in common because you have
lots of direct reports. He'sthe CEO of Nvidia. I don't know whether
you've seen any of thematerial buzz around this. He has
60 direct reports.
60.
60.
That's mental.
Yes, 60 don't reports. Henever speaks to them one to one.
(23:49):
He never has one to ones withhis team. Yeah, he says any conversation
I have I need to have in theopen. Everyone needs to see it because
otherwise how is someone goingto learn from someone else's mistake?
I love that.
I quite like it. But can youimagine if you're the person who's
made the mistake and you'vegot 59 other people going, oh my
God, thank God it's not me.Maybe they're a little bit kinder
(24:11):
with that culture. It's quitea brutal culture that I feel.
Yeah, quite like it though.
It's quite nice A.
There's no hiding.
But also, I think as you said,like, you know, with a team of 10.
Even, like the amount ofinformation that you just automatically
know because you're living andbreathing every day.
Yes.
Is so different from that kindof rigid hierarchy thing where you
(24:34):
only get what people think youneed to know and you never quite
know whether what.
You'Re telling them is the truth.
Yeah.
You're telling you.
Sorry. Is the truth or whatthey think you want to hear. Yeah.
That stuff's like crapola.
My husband has a reallylovely. Because he's got two huge
teams. He's. He likes to beeyes on and hands off. And I really
like that because he's gotfull exposure of what's happening,
(24:56):
but he's got no interest ingetting involved in the detail. And,
you know that I want you toget there, how you get there, I don't
care. But he knows thatthey're on the journey and they're
going. So I really like that.And, you know, that really, really
stuck with me. I think thething with our team is, yes, we are,
like I said, a nice sizedteam, but we are going back multifaceted.
(25:21):
So the thing, the thing that Istruggle with sometimes is the breadth
and being involved ineverything. So everything from what
are we doing in the PR spaceto, you know, what's happening in
the channel team through to,you know, our designers going, can
you just have a look at this?What do you think about this? Is
this where we need to be? Soit's. It's the breadth of thinking
(25:44):
sometimes where, you know, forone meeting you're talking about
sales cycles, the next oneyou're looking at copy. It's that.
That sometimes just makes mybrain creak a little bit.
When you have that breath,sometimes the things being brought
to you can seem trivial. Howdo you handle that?
I think it's that thing oftaking a breath and realizing that
(26:05):
it's very important to theperson that's asking. Or they wouldn't
be.
Or they wouldn't be asking.
Yeah, yeah.
When you're running that kindof a team with lots of direct reports,
very flat hierarchy, you'regiving people a lot of autonomy.
Yes.
In return, you're asking for alot of transparency.
Yes.
I'm imagining you've alreadytold me that you quite like a bit
of failure here and therebecause it makes you learn. So there's,
(26:26):
you know, that I hate thephrase, but that psychological safety
thing is really important.There has to be structure somewhere.
And I know the answer to thisbecause I spoke to you about it before.
How do you structure your teamso that you can have that transparency,
flexibility and autonomywithout sacrificing the mission.
(26:47):
The fortunate thing at themoment is we work in a very structured
organization. So there is anumber that we've got to hit in the
UK and that's what's drivingeverything. Underneath that number
is some measures of successthat we get from our HQ team and
there's no ambiguity in those.So flowing that down into the team
(27:08):
isn't a difficult job. Youknow, these are the things that we've
got to achieve. And thenextrapolating that down into workload,
projects, et cetera for therest of the guys isn't difficult.
And we do it twice a year orwe do it once a year. Set KPIs at
the beginning of the year.Okrs I've worked with in the past
in old roles. We're very muchKPI driven where we are at the moment,
(27:31):
but with some flex as well.And I think how do you drive success?
I think the fact anybody beingmeasured doesn't want to fail first
and foremost. And I think whennice bonus payments are predicated
on that success that drivesmotivation even more. You know, we
all say that, you know, we'rehere because we love job. Ultimately
(27:52):
we're all here to fund ourlifestyles, I would argue. So I think
bonus payments that arepredicated on performance work really
well. We run Quite a brutal360 program as well. So there's no
hiding from you being anasshole. You might be performing
really well, but if you're adick, you're going to be called out
on it twice a year. Andthere's definitely no hiding from
(28:13):
it. We write out to 15, 10, 15of your work colleagues twice a year
and ask for anonymous feedbackthat forms part of your evaluation
process. So these are thethings that we need you to hit tangibly
X amount of leads from Xamount of campaigns. We want you
to do blah webinar on thiskind of content. We're launching
MDR products. Let's do this.They're all there but then around
(28:35):
that is how you're living andbreathing the values of the organization.
And if you are an easy personto work with and I saw something
on LinkedIn really recentlywhich said being easy to work with
is the most underrated workskill that like people possess. And
again that stuck with me. Youknow, you could be the smartest guy
in the room, but if you're abit of a dick, yeah, it doesn't make
(28:55):
for good teamwork, doesn'tmake for motivation. It you know
it. And I hate Rob. I Hate Robwithin a business. I've got no question
with anybody coming to me andsaying, you said that the other day,
and that really upset me. Allright, okay, let's pick that apart.
No worries. And I encouragethat within the team. I like open
dialogue, open feedback. Idon't like such and such said this,
(29:19):
such and such said that. I'vegot a problem with them. Like, go
and tell him, Go and tell her.Or I'll come in and do it, but don't
come and, like, don't niggleat me. That such and such has done
blah. So that culture isreally important to me. So really
clear, set objectives. Knowthat your people are gonna have things
to say about you twice a year.And given the opportunity and, like,
(29:40):
just come to work, Be easy towork with. Be a nice human being.
Work hard. I've got highstandards, you know, I expect my
boss has got high standards ofme. And I talk about it quite a lot.
I mean, talking about KPIadherence and things is quite boring.
And, you know, I do that alot. And everyone thinks I'm really
boring in my. In my day job.But they matter. I mean, they are
(30:02):
waypoints to success. How doyou communicate the importance of
those? Or do you not need to?Is your team.
No, we do. So we've gotcountry KPIs, so, you know, things
that we've got to hit as theguys know what they are, and then
they're extrapolated down intoour own personal KPIs, I think. And
the lovely thing about thatis, is these are the five or six
(30:25):
key things that we need you todeliver in this half. How you get
there, I've got no interestin. Unless you need me, then, yeah,
great, let's figure that out.How you get there is entirely up
to you. But these are thethings that I need hitting by the
end of the half. We'll talkabout them regularly. Let's talk
about them on a monthly basis.Some of them are joined, so you have
(30:47):
to work with your teammates onthem, but there's no ambiguity in
hitting them. We run a red,amber, green system. Like, are we
on track? Are we go? No go. Dowe need to pull back? Do we need
to. And. And, you know, a lotof the time we're green and we're
great, but sometimes it'slike, glaring red in there. Right,
okay. How do we, like, hustleas a team together around this to
put it into special measuresto move it forward.
(31:08):
So it's kind of okr, like,yes, but not okay. I Mean you haven't
got the rigidity. Presumablyyou're not running okrs where you
are at the moment?
No, have done in the past, butnot where we are now. But yeah, very
much. Kind of gathering aroundto make sure that the ones that aren't
quite where they need to be,let's try and push them forward.
(31:28):
But it leaves people thatspace to be able to work how they
want to work rather than being dictators.
It's not too rigid.
Not at all.
A very modern approach.
And the doors always open,call and they do anytime, day or
night.
Presumably when they come inwith the doors open. You don't say
(31:49):
you forgot to knock.
No, I don't have an office.
You're probably working fromhome, I guess.
Well, I work from home.
Working in the car or something.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And in withthe team in the office. And that's.
And there's an interesting oneas well. Like hybrid working, being
in the office, being not inthe office.
(32:09):
Yeah, don't get me started onthat one.
I love being here.
Hybrid shirking. I mean, Idon't have an opinion. Yeah, so do
I. I love it, I love it. I'mfive days a week in the office.
Yeah.
I miss it largely because I'mnot popular at home and it makes
me. Yeah. But let's talk aboutChannel a little bit because you
mentioned earlier, you know,that part of your role, you know,
(32:29):
one minute you can think aboutPR and the next minute you're thinking
about Channel. And wementioned market development funds,
mdf and you also mentionedthat you've got some partners of
really big budgets and their,their route to building brand and,
and long term activity. Thatbrand equity piece is to buy and,
(32:50):
and run media and youmentioned that you didn't have that
luxury. So how, how are youworking with Channel as a builder
of brand?
When I came in three yearsago, we were under our old CMO and
we were there. There'd beentalk in the years previous which
(33:12):
was around the set brand inthe UK and how it wasn't where it
needed to be. Fortunately inSlovakia, where our head office is,
we're at like 90 odd percentbrand awareness. It's huge. And across
the rest of Europe actually,But in the UK brand awareness was
about 4%.
I mean really.
Yeah, I mean really small.Really really small. So I came in
(33:32):
to an environment where someTV ads had been produced and there
was some budget allocated tobuying some media, blah, blah, blah,
blah. Great. And it justdidn't land for lots of reasons which
you know we could spendanother hour on. So I won't. But
for lots of reasons it justdidn't land is at that time you think,
(33:53):
right, okay, Christ, what'sour play here? I'm six months a year
in six months in just gettingto grips with the industry, just
getting to grips with, youknow, what all this means and just
the channel side of things,brand side, it was all over. I remember
having a conversation with ourHQ and it was like, well, what's
it going to take? I was like,to build a brand? I was like, probably
(34:13):
10 million quid every year forthe next five years. And they're
like, yeah, it is like that'swhat we're playing with here. We're
at such a low base and.
It'S a, it's quite a maturesector as well.
Mature market names, bignames, people spending like, I'm
gonna have to out buy thecompetition and that's going to be
expensive and it's going totake us time. No was the answer.
(34:37):
Okay, so, right, okay, how doI make this work then? How do I make
this work with the budget thatI've got? What can I do? And we'd
almost forgot about the factthat our partners are ultimately
our customers. So yes, brandawareness is important, but we sell
through a channel. 90% of ourbusiness goes through resellers and
partners. We'd almost forgotabout them. So I was like, right,
(35:03):
we're going to turn thismassively on its head. And the two
things I want to do wasrefocus most of our investment into
our partners. We know that youbuy from people that you like.
Yep.
Yeah. How do I get these guysto love Eset more? And you think
about the motivation of apartner, what they interested in,
ease of use, profit margins isthe product sound, is that right?
(35:26):
So we build everything that wedo around those things. And the other
thing was brand perception wasso two things. There's brand awareness
but there's also theperception of the brand was probably
quite low and actually ourproducts are shit hot. So I was like,
how do I raise the percept?Two things that I can do is get more
involved with these channelguys, get them to love Eset more
(35:48):
through the motivations I'vejust talked about. But I can also
raise the perception of ourbrand. I've got the money to do that
by narrowing the net, sonarrowing the scope. And we did some
things like we just inSeptember, gone. We held our first
partner conference since Ithink 2018. Yeah. And it was great,
(36:08):
Ben, it was fantastic. Wasn't it?
Tell me about the event.
So in the past we've donedriving days, we've done in. In quite
corporate environments. And Iwas like, I don't want to do that.
So I was like, right, this is,this is what I'm thinking, guys,
to the two. We look for anamazing venue somewhere central in
(36:28):
the country that people canget to easily and we take it over
and we give people the besttime and we're like, okay, so, guys,
like, brilliant. Off we wentand we found this amazing venue just
north of Birmingham calledHallcross hall. And we took exclusive
use of the entire place. Andit's beautiful, right? It's like
big bloody country manor.Lovely, lovely lawns out the back,
(36:50):
but stunningly beautiful. Soinstantly when people arrived, there
was the wild factor. And, youknow, we branded it all. He said,
stunning. Really lovely eventin the evening, great content during
the day. Really great content.Some external speakers, some internal
speakers, some workshops. Andwe just really looked after people
and not in that over the top,you know, loads of booze. It wasn't
(37:13):
that. It was just made surethat they felt valued and they are
valued and welcomed and theorganization, Amy and my team was,
you know, Mrs. Spreadsheet.And there was no deviation from the
spreadsheet, but she knewexactly who was coming, what time
they were coming. We printedbespoke agendas for every single
person. We did really greatgifts. We got commissioned. Lego
(37:36):
eset, Lego. Just every littletouch point was really well thought
through. So we did the 80% ofthe organization, the 20% of Flair,
and the feedback's just beenstunning, stunningly brilliant. And
people feel educated, so ourpartners feel much more educated
about our products andservices, so they're enabled to sell
(37:57):
eset more effectively. Theylove us more because we've built
those relationships. And I hadthe full sales team there and just
the camaraderie and theconversation and those again, that
ability to build arelationship in human form.
Human connection.
Human connections.
Great memories.
Yes.
And learning things new.
Learning things new.
(38:17):
Fantastic.
Yeah, yeah.
And that's going to paydividends, isn't it, that event?
It will. You know, we'realready seeing. We're starting to
see some of the stuff off theback of it. Oh, God. Tell me about
your MDR products. I didn'tknow you did that. Come and can we
do a joint webinar? Can we doa joint marketing campaign together?
And so Caitlin, the channelmarketing manager, is now like inflow,
being barraged with requestsfor joint marketing activity. So
(38:39):
even that is like the Momentumthat will then drive pipeline into
Q1.
Next year and beyond, I guess.I mean, we started today talking
about, talking about brand andthe long term effect of it. But I
think when you mobilize acommunity like that and when you
really get a hold of, yeah,your channel partners and they get
a hold of you and that kindof, that symbiosis starts actually.
(39:01):
That's years worth of valuethat you get from one event, isn't
it?
Yeah. And again, you know,it's that relationship piece. It's
really like you'll love doingbusiness with you even if they're
10% more expensive. I know inmy own experience I'll buy from the
guys that I like.
It's all relate everything'srelationships, isn't it? It's all
about relationships.
Can I call? You know, in myprevious role we had a really great
(39:23):
outsourced design agency. Theguy was Exelgivy Maeva, he was based
in Yorkshire and greatrelationship with him. Fantastic.
But I knew I could call on himfor a favor. Nobody could get me
to deviate from that contractbecause I really liked his. I liked
his personality. We gelled. Wecould have great conversation and
(39:45):
I could call and say, I'm inthe shit, can you turn this round
in 24 hours? And they'd alwaysstep up. So there was, you know,
my design contract wasn'tgoing anywhere.
And he lived in God's county, obviously.
And he lived in God's county,obviously. Yeah.
I've got form when it comes toYorkshire, so I'm not gonna say any
more than that. So channel'sreally important. But you also have
one other initiative that is,I think is really interesting and
(40:07):
that's your activity with Bournemouth.
So we're based in Bournemouth,Our head office is in Bournemouth.
We are Seaside, which islovely. And before my time. So before
I joined the organization, wehad a marketing campaign called Safer
Kids Online. Does what it sayson the tin. Yeah. Loads of information
(40:27):
and, and campaigns aroundkeeping your kids safe online. Grassroots
level. And we started talking,or they had started talking to the
football club about anoutreach program. So obviously ESEC
can't go waltzing into schoolsteaching kids how to be safer online.
But the football club had anoutreach program which worked with
(40:47):
local schools and communitieson various things. We set up a program
where they would go intoschools, we created content and they
would spend time with thekids. Fantastic. It renewed the year
before I came and then when Icame in, I was looking at the activity
that we were doing. I waslike, this looks really interesting.
And the team there are greatis another thing, loads of investment
(41:11):
going in the football club.They are massively invested in the
community but also thebusiness community as well. So they
work really closely withVitality Stadium and they work really
closely with the university aswell. So it's like a really natural
fit there for us. Then Iemployed brand and partnerships manager.
She came in and I was likethis, this has got potential, like
(41:33):
run with it. And she was greatwith it. She really kind of got under
the skin and it needs thatagain. Where do you prove the value
of somebody spending time in afootball club seven days a week or
whatever? I couldn't at first,but it snowballed and the more that
she was there working with theteam and working with the guys, the
opportunity started coming into the point where we were offered
(41:54):
the opportunity to sponsor thewomen's team and again that fell
really nicely in the women'sagenda that we were looking at. So,
you know, we really promotewomen in tech. We've just sponsored
a lady student who's about toembark on her cyber degree at Bournemouth
Uni. So it played reallynicely and it's something that I'm
really passionate about,really invested in. So we sponsored
(42:16):
the women's team. That wasgreat. And then the opportunities
just started to come in, comein, come in. We looked at, they came
across to Eset World for us.They spoke about communities and
partnerships for us and again,like I said, Lena just really worked
that relations to a pointwhere we got into a conversation
about them, them using ourproduct, really nice symbiotic relationship
(42:38):
and us securing what is nowPremier League club. So there's a
bit of, there's a bit ofcontra deal going on there, but it
allows us exposure to footballfans on a Premier League stage and
also ties into that bit that Iwas talking about earlier about raising
the perception of our brand.Eset is now associated with a Premier
League club and we protect aPremier League club. So that was,
(43:02):
that's really cool, reallygreat for us.
So we're talking, I mean, youknow, we started today talking about
long term and brand buildingand we've talked through then about
how you've enabled your teamby having a kind of a flat structure
and creating the environmentthat allows them to get on and do
stuff. And now we're talkingabout relationships and the communities
(43:24):
that you're building and allof these things feed each other so
that your in a position therewhere you're building a brand without
having to buy $10 millionworth of media a year. But it's building
one brick at a time, Right?
Definitely. And also theopportunity to then take our partners
and our customers to thegames. So everybody loves a bit of
corporate hospitality comealong. And there's the Eset brand
(43:44):
all over the stadium. So,again, that perception, that raising.
Raising the bar, raising theperception of the brand is there.
So they've. It seems like it'sall been really well planned.
Of course it has been.
What are you talking about?Yeah, definitely. All those things
have just fallen really nicelyinto place. But I think, especially
for Lena, you know, with thatcontract, the ability to have the
(44:06):
breathing space to talk aboutthe opportunities to spend the time.
It's been three years in themaking to get us to where we are
now. Brand building, you couldargue, takes time. Takes time. And
it's really starting to paydividends for us. Now, tying into
that, we also took a box atWembley, which was a massive expense.
Yeah.
But it was.
(44:26):
But again, allows us to. Andit's branded. It looks beautiful.
It's really nice. Reallybougie. We get 12 tickets to every
event that's happening atWembley. I mean, we were lucky. We
got Taylor Swift and thenaway. Yeah, I wasn't, but I am now.
Okay, okay. I'm not a Swiftie.I haven't yet been.
She was bloody brilliant.Yeah. So we had all the Taylor Swift
(44:47):
dates, then all the Oasisdates landed, and then the Coldplay
tickets landed on top of allof the football. So leveraging those
as incentives into ourpartners to say, hey, look, let's
come in, let's do a spiffyday. Yeah, We've got the normal champagne
voucher started up. I've gottwo Oasis tickets for the guy that
brings me the. Or the girlthat brings me the most leads. And
then it's hot property.
And then they go, stuff money can't.
Buy and then they go, and. AndI said to the guys, if we're inviting
(45:10):
people, let's not just invitesingle whoever on a. On a night.
Let them bring their daughter,their husband, their wife, like,
come as an experience. BecauseI. I know myself, I don't want to
spend Saturday nights awayfrom my family, but if it's like,
hey, jp, there's two ticketsfor Oasis. Are you coming? Yes. So,
you know, small things likethat, and I think it's just thinking
(45:31):
about the human psyche of whatdo people actually want?
Making happy memories. Again.
Making happy memories. And thebox looks amazing. So, again, that
perception of who we are andthe sphere that we're operating in
is Raised again. So that was areal win for us.
I know eset for other reasons,but you know, when you, when you
took on the brand, as you say,you had 4% awareness and really an
(45:56):
uphill struggle because of thesector that you're in and the strength
of competitors.
Yeah.
But you have found a way ofcarving your own niche and, and being
able to build experience andmemories and relationships and community.
Yeah.
And going back to where westarted. Then when you go to speak
(46:18):
to your CFO now who you have agood relationship with, they will
understand the value of all ofthose things.
Yes. Because we've just hadsomething tangible on decent period
of growth. Yeah. First twoyears were tough and this year we're
on double digit growthforecast for the year end. And I
(46:39):
can attribute a lot, you know,I'm also very fastidious about campaign
codes. In Salesforce, we canattribute a lot of that activity
back to the marketing eitherfunded or leads that have been generated
by the team. We can track itall back and there, you know, it's
(47:01):
taken a long time, but we cansee it.
And that is a wrap, folks.Wow, wasn't Jules fantastic? I think
she really took us into somelike nitty gritty detail about what
makes marketing color not justwork, but resonate. And again, not
in the marketing department,but around the business as a whole.
So, Jules, thank you so muchfor taking the time to come and talk
(47:24):
to us. I know how busy youare. Well, as we have been doing
recently, let's close outtoday's episode with very, very quick
bit of reflection. And I'mgoing to start by saying this trust
builds an unshakablefoundation. Whether you are a marketer,
a business leader, maybe evenjust a curious listener that surfed
(47:44):
your way in. Remember thistrust isn't just an asset to the
business. Actually, it'sreally kind of the lifeblood of any
meaningful relationship. Andin business that's both inside and
outside your organ. Julesreminded us how brands that cultivate
trust purposefully create asafety net for themselves, for growth,
(48:04):
for resilience, and for impactin the event that you have some cataclysmic
thing happen to your business.It's trust that's going to save your
company. So it shouldn't betaken lightly. You should be building
methods of how to grow trustinto your day to day. Secondly, I
would say we learned todaythat shared experience, it really
(48:27):
is a secret sauce. We knowalready, and I've waffled about it
on this podcast again andagain and again that marketers jobs
isn't just about runningcampaigns in Jules parlance, she
said today it's about creatingconnections. And she challenged us
to think about how our workcan multiply value for our businesses
(48:47):
through real human moments,events if you like, or partnerships,
even small personal touchpoints that might linger in people's
minds. That's that mentalavailability that Byron Sharp talks
about all the time. Andfinally today we learned that empowerment
breeds excellence. And wewaffled a lot in the early days of
this podcast aboutorganizational design and that kind
(49:11):
of stuff. And I'm talking herereally about things like flat structure
as giving your teams autonomyand that important element, psychological
safety. Jules showed us howgiving teams the tools and trust
to take ownership can drivereal creativity and improve your
outcomes, which ultimately isgoing to improve the effectiveness
(49:32):
of your department because youknow when your team thrives, your
brand is going to shine. Now,before we sign off, I have a little
bit of homework for you to do.And this week is this. I want you
to identify one thing that youcan do this week either to build
trust or to create meaningfulexperiences or to empower your team.
(49:53):
Take some time to reflect onthat and then take action. And then
I want you to do exactly thatnext week. And then I want you to
do the same thing the weekafter and so on. If you do that,
and every week you askyourself that one question, what
can I do to do one of thesethree things? You will be well, well,
well on the way to buildingsomething truly great. Now, if you
(50:13):
loved today's episode as muchas I did, please don't forget to
share it with your network andfriends to subscribe or even to leave
a review. You can find us onall of.
Your favorite podcastplatforms and you can.
Reach me directly on LinkedIn.As always, keep chasing those unicorn
y moments. Those are themoments that make your work and your
world a little bit more magical.
I will see you next time.
Having witnessed them gothrough quite a catastrophic incident
this year, their brand is thething I would argue that has saved
them. We run quite a brutal360 program, so there's no hiding
from you being an asshole. Youmight be performing really well,
but if you're a dick, you'regoing to be called out on it twice
a year. The doors always open,call. And they do anytime, day or
(00:24):
night.
Presumably when they come inwith the door is open. You don't
say you forgot to knock?
No, no, I don't have an office.
Hey folks, and welcome to TheUnicorny Marketing show. I'm your
(00:46):
host Dom Hawes and today weare exploring the art and the science
of building brands thatresonate, retain and really matter.
And if I alliterate like thatagain, you have my permission to
find me in the street and hitme. But today we're joined by Jules
Berriff. She is UK MarketingDirector at ESET, the cyber security
company trusted by millionsworldwide. And Jules is a master
(01:09):
of navigating competitivemarkets with limited resources, something
I think we can probably allrelate to, especially in such austere
times. Not going to make acomment about the government. Today
she is delivering us amasterclass in turning those kinds
of challenges intoopportunities. And I think that what
makes this episode sounmissable is the focus on trust.
(01:32):
Jules is going to walk usthrough how investing in brand resilience
acts as a kind of insurancepolicy. Helping businesses weather
crises while keeping customersas close as possible. She's also
going to share how fosteringtrust internally with our own teams,
leaders, leadership teams, butalso our channel partners is the
(01:52):
secret source for sustainablesuccess. And here's the kicker. We're
not just going to be talkingabout strategy and frameworks today.
We're going to be diving intothe multiplier effect of shared experience.
Jules is going to explain howa single event like ESET's partner
conference can spark years andyears of loyalty and collaboration.
(02:13):
From reimagining channelmarketing, to crafting community
driven events, to building abrand that punches way above its
weight in very, very resourceconstrained environments. This episode
today is packed with reallyuseful things to take away. In short,
I think it's kind of yourroadmap to balancing your short term
wins with with your long termgains. I'm not going to waffle anymore
(02:35):
because Jules can tell youstraight from the unicorn's mouth.
Let's go straight to the studio.
Hello, how are you? I'm good.
And you've been down andLondon for.
A couple of days.
I Have lots of meetings backto back. A little bit of social,
which is nice.
Good.
Didn't drink too many ginslast night.
Didn't.
Didn't. Okay.
Okay.
Just thought I'd share. I'mvery glad you've made time for us
because we had a pre call aswe always do before the unicorny
(03:01):
podcast recording sessions andwe got stuck in some really interesting
stuff which we're going totalk about today. And we're going
to start with the B word brandand really the importance of long
term brand building which whenwe got together you felt was often
overlooked and it's a subjectwe've touched.
On before but you had some really.
Interesting angles on it. So Ithink it's really good, a good idea
(03:24):
for us to, to. To dive in aschat GPT might say the base premise
we're starting with is thatthat or that you and I would start
with because we're marketersis that long term brand building
is essential.
Agreed.
But it's not always seen that way.
Not everyone agrees. Why not?
I think because you can'ttangibly measure it.
(03:44):
Okay.
There is no direct output. Andin this world of performance marketing,
I think we've almost forgotabout the value of building brands.
Okay.
Which for me as a marketer isreally sad. And when you look around
and see the success of somebusinesses like for instance Octopus
Energy, who I had the fortuneof watching on stage at Marketing
(04:07):
Week recently, they are amarketing up marketing first business
and have grown exponentially.And not only are they growing, people
love the brand and they'vedone it. Or what I've observed is
they've done it in a way wherethe look and feel is isn't an energy
(04:28):
company. It speaks to theircustomers and their customer service
is phenomenal. I'm a customer.
Yeah.
I used to be one of theircompetitors customers. I will never
change because I can pick upthe phone and speak directly to them.
So I think in amongst thebrand building is also the product
side of things and alsotreating your customers really well.
(04:49):
Yeah, they've built a reallygood reputation to that they didn't
get my business, I must say.Someone else was five pounds cheaper.
So that's the price point.But, but, but it was a really hard
choice because I know, I knowinstinctively I guess because they've
done their branding well, whatthey stand for and that the service
is brilliant. I mean utilitieswas an area I guess that was ripe
for that because traditionallycertainly the received wisdom is
(05:13):
that customer service andutilities is terrible. So they've
Done really well there inbusiness to business maybe not so
much. I mean I think thenature of the relationships is slightly
different and I think some ofthe people that we come across would
argue that brand in a B2Benvironment is a kite mark and not
(05:35):
much more.
I would disagree.
Yeah, tell me why.
I think you can draw anexample. So I currently work for
a cybersecurity organizationwhich operates globally and our competition
is fierce and I look at othercompanies, our competitors who are
spending on their brand hugeamounts of investment. Huge. Their
(05:57):
brand is well known, it'sliked as seen as the cool kind of
company to be purchasing forleading edge, cutting edge, using
all the right terminology etcin their, in their marketing and
communications. But havingwitnessed them go through quite a
catastrophic incident thisyear, their brand is the thing I
(06:19):
would argue that has savedthem. And I think when talking to
CMOs, CBOs, that's a reallyvalid point and a proof point of
what, what the power of, of abrand. So not just in the building
and the reputation and the,the exposure of an organization but
(06:40):
actually how it can save abusiness when shit hits the fan.
It does buy you an enormousamount of goodwill, doesn't it? You
do that stuff well and we'renot going to name them because we
wouldn't want to give themeven one reference. But that sounds
something like Cloud Mike,something like that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So. But they did an amazing. Imean when that happened I thought
this company's dead same. Buthow do you come back from something
(07:00):
like this? But I looked whenwe were on, when we were on the line
online before on the line, asthough there's only one. When we
were online before I looked attheir stock price and it's actually
almost recovered now to, topre event which is extraordinary.
I mean it is extraordinary. Sothe base premise we've got so far
is your brand building isimportant especially I think in business
(07:20):
to business at the moment wedon't need to make the case in consumer
brand work because theyalready get it. How does investing
in brand development thoughimpact a company's growth compared
to someone who's prioritizingshort term?
I'm going to quote Ritson hereand we all know the 95.5rule, but
95% of our buy and we know thebuying cycle in B2B is anything from
(07:43):
a year up to five yearsdepending on contracts that were
in place previously. And whenwe think that 95% of your customers,
right now our customers, yourcustomers aren't in the position
to buy. So we've got 5% toplay with. Great. How? Without really
investing in brand, withoutlooking at that exposure, without
(08:04):
saying the right things,without making people feel that,
you know, X, Y and Z brand isa great brand to buy. They're doing
the right things becauseevermore we're invested in that as
well. Their purpose is goodand we like their product. You know,
in my case, their technologysound, we like what they do. They've
got history, they've gotrelevance, they've got credentials
(08:24):
sat behind them, they'reworking with companies that I can't
name but you know, really bigorganizations that trust them and
know them. Without talkingabout all of that loudly and proudly
and investing in it, how isthat 95% of the market going to even
be conscious of the fact thatwhoever your brand is exists when
they're at the point of purchase?
(08:45):
Well, they won't, will they?
They won't.
Yeah. And we also know fromthe same body of research that when
they do put a short listtogether, they've almost always decided
who's going to win itbeforehand. Yes, blimey. So we have
to do that work in brandbuilding. And so the challenge we
have is that all the thingsyou've talked about can be quite
expensive, but particularly ifyou're putting a media budget behind
(09:08):
something, justifying theexpenditure, sometimes hard, really
expensive.
And I think, you know, I'vedone this for over 20 years now.
I was in the space before wehad Facebook advertising or digital
advertising and that makes mesound really old. And we were buying
billboards and deciding whichside of the road we needed to buy
our billboard on, depending onwhich way the traffic was going to
whatever destination orwhatever it is that we were selling
(09:29):
at the time. I think we'vemoved to such a point of short term
thinking of the next quarter.The next quarter, the next quarter.
Performance marketing. Feedthe pipe, Feed the pipe. What's the
roi? What are we getting backoff? Every pound we forgot about
the importance of brand andwhat that brings, but also buying
(09:52):
into a long term strategy. AndI also think that as organizations
sometimes it's gone wrong. Andrather than accepting and learning
from the things that have gonewrong in perhaps a brand exercise,
taking stock, reevaluating,starting again, it's almost been
put in the bin and written offas this just doesn't work. And it
(10:14):
needs time, it needs time tobreathe, it needs time to grow, you
need to be optimizing all thetime. Did that work? And also it's
not just the investment in themedia buy and the Production and
the creative. But how are youmeasuring that? Because that's an
expensive business as well.
We know it's expensive, ofcourse, to build a brand. I mean,
we're going to talk a littlebit later, I think, about some other
(10:35):
ways of doing things thatdon't involve just buying media.
But we all have budgets, weall have a certain amount of money
we're allocated in order todeliver the return. But. And those
budgets are generally createdand or approved by financially focused
execs, CEOs or CFOs who don'talways understand the impact or the
(10:58):
importance of brandinvestments. Is there a way that
we can demonstrate tangiblevalue or how do we have that conversation?
I'm not sure, other than usingexamples in the marketplace. And
I've sat through many apresentation of. Please, Mr. Finance
Director, can I have X, Y,what am I going to get back off it?
(11:19):
Well, I think the mostimportant thing when putting your
case across is having a reallytrusting relationship with your finance
director. It's reallyunfortunate in the position that
I'm in now. Our head offinance is great, great guy. But
in previous role, where I wasfor six years, I had the fortune
(11:40):
to work with a very Yorkshire.Okay, Andrew was a Yorkshireman through
and through. Sorry for namingyou. Andrew and I had a great relationship
with him. And he would ask meevery year, we'd sit down, well,
what am I going to get backoff this? I'm like, we're not. Not
right now, but without it. Ifear for the future of our performance
(12:04):
marketing. And also your brandmarketing fuels your performance
marketing ultimately.Fortunately, in that role, I worked
with some really big brands.We worked with the suite of ITV brands,
so Coronation Street,Emmerdale, et cetera, et cetera.
And, and we're able toleverage that to really great effect.
So I think, how do you put ittogether? I think examples of best
(12:25):
practice where you've seen ithappening, but I think you've got
to have trust with your fd.They've got to be bought into you
as a human being and yourability to execute.
And what responsibility do youthink marketers have for helping
either? I was going to saydevelop, but that sounds a bit presumptuous.
But develop the lexiconcertainly of other executives. Because
(12:46):
I've on other podcasts, lesserpodcasts, obviously, I've, I've heard,
I've heard advice.
That says, oh, don't use the word.
Brand in the boardroom becausepeople think you're a marketer. And
it's such duff advice. I cansee by the way, you're screwing your
face up. You hate that.
I hate that. Yeah, I hatethat. And I think so. In my early
(13:07):
career, I had the fortune ormisfortune of working for a law firm
and I was referred to as thecoloring in corner.
Oh, God.
Yeah. That made me angry. AndI'm looking around and I'm like,
these are really talentedpeople that know their shit, that
understand the sales cycle,that understand the business. And
(13:28):
I think the reputation ofmarketeers is something that I'm
very passionate about becausewe are not. I would argue that most
of the people that I work withare really smart, really articulate,
understand communications in away that no other department in a
business will, and have a lotof value to add. And I've probably
been a bit pushy in the pastthat I've muscled my way into conversations
(13:50):
that I wasn't invited to or Iwasn't invited to the table. But
I've always had a lot to sayand I'm interested in the success
of a business. So, you know,whether that is product, whether
that is the people that we'rehiring, whether that is the revenue
and the P L. I've wanted to beinvolved in that. So to say that
brand isn't. Isn't invited tothe board table, I think is. Is really
(14:14):
naive.
It is. And I think, look, Ilove lawyers. Me and lawyers, we
love each other. If they callyou the coloring in department, I
think, you know, I would havejust called them value sponges and
see what seem they thoughtabout that. And some of my best friends
are lawyers. It's fine, but.
But it's a good point, right?
If they don't. I actually havea real problem with that whole coloring
(14:36):
in thing because. And we'vetalked about it on this podcast a
little bit. Partly we've doneit to ourselves because we've created
these large departments, theoutput of which is stuff, and what
the organization sees is thestuff. So a brochure or a website
or.
A this or that with a good.
Color scheme and good words.And while they might not understand
the nuance or thesophistication of the communication
(14:57):
in it to the rest of theorganization, it's stuff. That's
the stuff department. So Ithink part of it might be that. Part
of it, I think, is that wehaven't pushed hard enough in the
other direction to explain tothe rest of the business why marketing
matters so much and how muchvalue it creates. I think. I mean,
you mentioned 95.5rule, andthere's the long and short of it.
And there's all this othersort of effectiveness research now
(15:19):
that I think really does. Iwouldn't go as far as to call it
science, but it does help uscommunicate value. And I think it's
our job to, to, to take thatrole on internally.
And I think the science partis really interesting. I think everybody,
the perception of marketingthrough and through is the creative
people. And I'm like, yeah,okay, to a certain degree. But also
(15:42):
the data analytics, thescience, the research. And actually
when I talk around mydepartment, we talk around the team
in there, they get reallyexcited about a data set that tells
them something and things.That the perception of the marketing
team, that is the graphicdesigner or the copywriter, it's
not, it's that. And this isthe beauty of marketing, isn't it?
(16:04):
It's that real heavy datascience like smooshed in with creativity,
hopefully to create an amazingoutput and then that has commercial
value.
But the graphic design and thecopy, that's the, that's the bit
that sits above the water.That's what they see, right? That
it's built on. They don't get.Yeah, poor them. We can educate them
(16:25):
though before we move on.Slightly thinking about kind of CFOs.
You said you have a greatrelationship. What advice would you
have for other marketingleaders who don't yet have a strong
relationship with finance? Howdo they go about bridging that? Where
do they start?
You got to understand the waythe finance mind works and it's probably
not the same as the way thatthe creative mind works or the sales
(16:46):
guy. And I think what I foundin my career is like speaking their
language and also having yourdata. There's no point. I have been
criminal of it in the past. Iwant to do this really great thing.
Was going to cost loads of money.
Right.
That's never going to get overthe line. So that ability to take
a step back and say why, how,how long, how much, what is actually
(17:12):
the financial plan in terms ofspend, do you need it all right now
or is it a drip feed into herewith you know, what does that look
like? So coming armed, I thinkthat reassurance of. I've thought
about it. I've really thoughtabout it. I know why, I know who.
And this is my business case.I'll take questions. Yeah. And then
being ready and armed with theinformation to be able to.
(17:33):
So you nailed it. Businesscase. Gotta have a business case,
right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So if you don't have that,then basically you're Screwed.
And even to the smallerthings, you know, I am the gatekeeper
in our organization of areally healthy marketing development
fund that sales guys can tapinto even if they're asking for a
grand. I'm asking them why.Yeah, because it's really easy and
(17:57):
spend a thousand pounds, isn'tit? But why? And I think it's not
just about the output. It'sgetting into that rhythm of thinking
about what am I trying toachieve? Who is this going to help?
Even if there's no tangibleoutput now, like what's your long
play on it? And I just thinkthat that thought process is quite
solid.
So that's exactly what I do.Fun enough internally here. In my
(18:20):
day job. I say here becausewe're in the building. But in my,
in my day job, if someonewants to go in, in our case, for
example, sponsor a channelevent and we have an occasion like
this where the leader of oneof my units wanted to. Three questions
to answer. What's the shortterm opportunity this will create?
What's the long termopportunity this will create? And
(18:42):
how is this going to be amultiplier for your business? And
if they can answer those threethings and ask them. Well, and what
I look for is I look for arevenue short term, I want enough
revenue to cover the cost ofthe event just so that the cash flow
is covered.
Yes.
In the long term, I want toknow there's a multiplier that makes
sense from a, an ebitda, aprofit, profit level. And then the
(19:03):
multiplier is the otherintangibles that sit alongside it.
And that works. It does workwell. So the approach seems to work.
The activity doesn't always.
Right, right.
It's never a slam dunk.
But then I'm also notfrightened of failure. So let's try,
you know, if there's soundrationale. But we're still like,
we're not sure what's theworst that can happen. We lose a
(19:25):
thousand pounds. Okay. What dowe learn? Like what's the learning
off the back of that, youknow, and don't just write it off
of, you know, that was. Sitdown, let's have a talk about it.
What went well? Well, therewasn't the right people there. So
what do we need to be lookingat next time? Or there wasn't the
opportunities or the leadsthat we were looking for. Okay, fine,
let's talk about it. Let'stake the learnings. Let's not be
frightened to, to fail. Yeah.And again, you know, I try and foster
(19:48):
that culture within the teamof let's have a go.
Speaking of that, it's almostas if you magically segued into where
I wanted to go next, which isabout empowering your team and about
how you set your team up forsuccess. You've had a very good 12
to 18 months, I believe.
Yeah, we have.
Good.
Really good.
You've got a really flat orgstructure. Yes, talk to me about
(20:10):
that. That's like, that'slike. That's counterculture when
it comes to B2B.
I've worked in manyorganizations over the years, some
with huge amounts ofhierarchy. And it niggled me, I think
that I couldn't have access tothe marketing director because I
had to go through threedifferent people to speak to him
or her. But that's nonsense. Ijust want to talk to him. And it
(20:32):
was. Or her. It was him,actually. The company I'm talking
about at the moment, I want totalk to him. Well, no, you need to
come through here and then youneed to come through here. And I'm
like, my message is going toget diluted by the time it gets there.
And I want that relationshipas well. So it niggled me. And then
you go to other places and yousee other structures and there's
things that you like and youdon't like about it. In my. The role
(20:56):
before this, we had a reallyunique setup in that we had a central
marketing function and then wehad eight satellite businesses. So
we had a really great, greatcentral marketing function. Me, web
designer, you know,specialists in their fields, pr,
et cetera, et cetera. And thenwe had small marketing teams on site.
Okay.
(21:17):
So we were, we were. Thesupport office worked really nicely.
The temptation to centralizeall of that marketing into head office
was like always there. And Iplayed with it a few times and I
really realized that unlessyou are on the front line, you don't
know your market. So we, weleft those guys to be the conduit
(21:37):
to, you know, being on theground. And, and it worked. It worked
for a long time. But thetemptation was always there. I walked
in, I had the fortune ormisfortune of walking into the role
that I'm in now three yearsago, to essentially a pile of rubble.
The marketing departmentwasn't in a good place. People had
left. We were lackingexperience and skill, both in terms
(21:57):
of marketing, but both interms of cybersecurity. My background's
not tech, so this was like awhole new world to me. And we started
a really large recruitmentdrive and I wanted to be Close to
the people. I wanted to beclose to the people that I was gonna
be working with. And I justdidn't want to put that hierarchical
structure in. In what wasmeant to be quite a small team at
(22:19):
the time. The team is compactin size, but really broad in terms
of what we're delivering. Soit was recruiting specialists in
fields. So I needed a graphicdesigner, we needed a copywriter,
I needed a channel marketingmanager. We needed somebody to do
events, we needed somebody tolook after the enterprise side and
the structure. I just couldn'tmake a structure work out of it either.
(22:41):
You know, why would we havethe events person reporting into
the enterprise guy? It justdidn't work. So I was like, right,
okay, everybody's reportingin. There's no hierarchy. We make
decisions as a team. It'sgreat for a while until you get to
the point where there's morepeople coming in and more people
coming in and more peoplecoming in. And then my workload starts
to. Yeah, yeah. So I reallyfelt it last year, but. But I believe
(23:06):
it works.
So how many, how many directreports do you have now?
Some of the guys that are inthe team, we've now pushed into different
departments with dotted linesin. So the online business manager
is. Was reporting directly andshe now runs the whole of the online
business doing a cracking job,responsible for all the marketing
and the revenue. So she's adotted line now, which is fantastic.
(23:27):
So it's a similar approach, acentral resource with locally enabled.
Yeah, yeah.
People in the division.
Nice.
Yeah.
So you and Jensen Wang havesomething in common because you have
lots of direct reports. He'sthe CEO of Nvidia. I don't know whether
you've seen any of thematerial buzz around this. He has
60 direct reports.
60.
60.
That's mental.
Yes, 60 don't reports. Henever speaks to them one to one.
(23:49):
He never has one to ones withhis team. Yeah, he says any conversation
I have I need to have in theopen. Everyone needs to see it because
otherwise how is someone goingto learn from someone else's mistake?
I love that.
I quite like it. But can youimagine if you're the person who's
made the mistake and you'vegot 59 other people going, oh my
God, thank God it's not me.Maybe they're a little bit kinder
(24:11):
with that culture. It's quitea brutal culture that I feel.
Yeah, quite like it though.
It's quite nice A.
There's no hiding.
But also, I think as you said,like, you know, with a team of 10.
Even, like the amount ofinformation that you just automatically
know because you're living andbreathing every day.
Yes.
Is so different from that kindof rigid hierarchy thing where you
(24:34):
only get what people think youneed to know and you never quite
know whether what.
You'Re telling them is the truth.
Yeah.
You're telling you.
Sorry. Is the truth or whatthey think you want to hear. Yeah.
That stuff's like crapola.
My husband has a reallylovely. Because he's got two huge
teams. He's. He likes to beeyes on and hands off. And I really
like that because he's gotfull exposure of what's happening,
(24:56):
but he's got no interest ingetting involved in the detail. And,
you know that I want you toget there, how you get there, I don't
care. But he knows thatthey're on the journey and they're
going. So I really like that.And, you know, that really, really
stuck with me. I think thething with our team is, yes, we are,
like I said, a nice sizedteam, but we are going back multifaceted.
(25:21):
So the thing, the thing that Istruggle with sometimes is the breadth
and being involved ineverything. So everything from what
are we doing in the PR spaceto, you know, what's happening in
the channel team through to,you know, our designers going, can
you just have a look at this?What do you think about this? Is
this where we need to be? Soit's. It's the breadth of thinking
(25:44):
sometimes where, you know, forone meeting you're talking about
sales cycles, the next oneyou're looking at copy. It's that.
That sometimes just makes mybrain creak a little bit.
When you have that breath,sometimes the things being brought
to you can seem trivial. Howdo you handle that?
I think it's that thing oftaking a breath and realizing that
(26:05):
it's very important to theperson that's asking. Or they wouldn't
be.
Or they wouldn't be asking.
Yeah, yeah.
When you're running that kindof a team with lots of direct reports,
very flat hierarchy, you'regiving people a lot of autonomy.
Yes.
In return, you're asking for alot of transparency.
Yes.
I'm imagining you've alreadytold me that you quite like a bit
of failure here and therebecause it makes you learn. So there's,
(26:26):
you know, that I hate thephrase, but that psychological safety
thing is really important.There has to be structure somewhere.
And I know the answer to thisbecause I spoke to you about it before.
How do you structure your teamso that you can have that transparency,
flexibility and autonomywithout sacrificing the mission.
(26:47):
The fortunate thing at themoment is we work in a very structured
organization. So there is anumber that we've got to hit in the
UK and that's what's drivingeverything. Underneath that number
is some measures of successthat we get from our HQ team and
there's no ambiguity in those.So flowing that down into the team
(27:08):
isn't a difficult job. Youknow, these are the things that we've
got to achieve. And thenextrapolating that down into workload,
projects, et cetera for therest of the guys isn't difficult.
And we do it twice a year orwe do it once a year. Set KPIs at
the beginning of the year.Okrs I've worked with in the past
in old roles. We're very muchKPI driven where we are at the moment,
(27:31):
but with some flex as well.And I think how do you drive success?
I think the fact anybody beingmeasured doesn't want to fail first
and foremost. And I think whennice bonus payments are predicated
on that success that drivesmotivation even more. You know, we
all say that, you know, we'rehere because we love job. Ultimately
(27:52):
we're all here to fund ourlifestyles, I would argue. So I think
bonus payments that arepredicated on performance work really
well. We run Quite a brutal360 program as well. So there's no
hiding from you being anasshole. You might be performing
really well, but if you're adick, you're going to be called out
on it twice a year. Andthere's definitely no hiding from
(28:13):
it. We write out to 15, 10, 15of your work colleagues twice a year
and ask for anonymous feedbackthat forms part of your evaluation
process. So these are thethings that we need you to hit tangibly
X amount of leads from Xamount of campaigns. We want you
to do blah webinar on thiskind of content. We're launching
MDR products. Let's do this.They're all there but then around
(28:35):
that is how you're living andbreathing the values of the organization.
And if you are an easy personto work with and I saw something
on LinkedIn really recentlywhich said being easy to work with
is the most underrated workskill that like people possess. And
again that stuck with me. Youknow, you could be the smartest guy
in the room, but if you're abit of a dick, yeah, it doesn't make
(28:55):
for good teamwork, doesn'tmake for motivation. It you know
it. And I hate Rob. I Hate Robwithin a business. I've got no question
with anybody coming to me andsaying, you said that the other day,
and that really upset me. Allright, okay, let's pick that apart.
No worries. And I encouragethat within the team. I like open
dialogue, open feedback. Idon't like such and such said this,
(29:19):
such and such said that. I'vegot a problem with them. Like, go
and tell him, Go and tell her.Or I'll come in and do it, but don't
come and, like, don't niggleat me. That such and such has done
blah. So that culture isreally important to me. So really
clear, set objectives. Knowthat your people are gonna have things
to say about you twice a year.And given the opportunity and, like,
(29:40):
just come to work, Be easy towork with. Be a nice human being.
Work hard. I've got highstandards, you know, I expect my
boss has got high standards ofme. And I talk about it quite a lot.
I mean, talking about KPIadherence and things is quite boring.
And, you know, I do that alot. And everyone thinks I'm really
boring in my. In my day job.But they matter. I mean, they are
(30:02):
waypoints to success. How doyou communicate the importance of
those? Or do you not need to?Is your team.
No, we do. So we've gotcountry KPIs, so, you know, things
that we've got to hit as theguys know what they are, and then
they're extrapolated down intoour own personal KPIs, I think. And
the lovely thing about thatis, is these are the five or six
(30:25):
key things that we need you todeliver in this half. How you get
there, I've got no interestin. Unless you need me, then, yeah,
great, let's figure that out.How you get there is entirely up
to you. But these are thethings that I need hitting by the
end of the half. We'll talkabout them regularly. Let's talk
about them on a monthly basis.Some of them are joined, so you have
(30:47):
to work with your teammates onthem, but there's no ambiguity in
hitting them. We run a red,amber, green system. Like, are we
on track? Are we go? No go. Dowe need to pull back? Do we need
to. And. And, you know, a lotof the time we're green and we're
great, but sometimes it'slike, glaring red in there. Right,
okay. How do we, like, hustleas a team together around this to
put it into special measuresto move it forward.
(31:08):
So it's kind of okr, like,yes, but not okay. I Mean you haven't
got the rigidity. Presumablyyou're not running okrs where you
are at the moment?
No, have done in the past, butnot where we are now. But yeah, very
much. Kind of gathering aroundto make sure that the ones that aren't
quite where they need to be,let's try and push them forward.
(31:28):
But it leaves people thatspace to be able to work how they
want to work rather than being dictators.
It's not too rigid.
Not at all.
A very modern approach.
And the doors always open,call and they do anytime, day or
night.
Presumably when they come inwith the doors open. You don't say
(31:49):
you forgot to knock.
No, I don't have an office.
You're probably working fromhome, I guess.
Well, I work from home.
Working in the car or something.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And in withthe team in the office. And that's.
And there's an interesting oneas well. Like hybrid working, being
in the office, being not inthe office.
(32:09):
Yeah, don't get me started onthat one.
I love being here.
Hybrid shirking. I mean, Idon't have an opinion. Yeah, so do
I. I love it, I love it. I'mfive days a week in the office.
Yeah.
I miss it largely because I'mnot popular at home and it makes
me. Yeah. But let's talk aboutChannel a little bit because you
mentioned earlier, you know,that part of your role, you know,
(32:29):
one minute you can think aboutPR and the next minute you're thinking
about Channel. And wementioned market development funds,
mdf and you also mentionedthat you've got some partners of
really big budgets and their,their route to building brand and,
and long term activity. Thatbrand equity piece is to buy and,
(32:50):
and run media and youmentioned that you didn't have that
luxury. So how, how are youworking with Channel as a builder
of brand?
When I came in three yearsago, we were under our old CMO and
we were there. There'd beentalk in the years previous which
(33:12):
was around the set brand inthe UK and how it wasn't where it
needed to be. Fortunately inSlovakia, where our head office is,
we're at like 90 odd percentbrand awareness. It's huge. And across
the rest of Europe actually,But in the UK brand awareness was
about 4%.
I mean really.
Yeah, I mean really small.Really really small. So I came in
(33:32):
to an environment where someTV ads had been produced and there
was some budget allocated tobuying some media, blah, blah, blah,
blah. Great. And it justdidn't land for lots of reasons which
you know we could spendanother hour on. So I won't. But
for lots of reasons it justdidn't land is at that time you think,
(33:53):
right, okay, Christ, what'sour play here? I'm six months a year
in six months in just gettingto grips with the industry, just
getting to grips with, youknow, what all this means and just
the channel side of things,brand side, it was all over. I remember
having a conversation with ourHQ and it was like, well, what's
it going to take? I was like,to build a brand? I was like, probably
(34:13):
10 million quid every year forthe next five years. And they're
like, yeah, it is like that'swhat we're playing with here. We're
at such a low base and.
It'S a, it's quite a maturesector as well.
Mature market names, bignames, people spending like, I'm
gonna have to out buy thecompetition and that's going to be
expensive and it's going totake us time. No was the answer.
(34:37):
Okay, so, right, okay, how doI make this work then? How do I make
this work with the budget thatI've got? What can I do? And we'd
almost forgot about the factthat our partners are ultimately
our customers. So yes, brandawareness is important, but we sell
through a channel. 90% of ourbusiness goes through resellers and
partners. We'd almost forgotabout them. So I was like, right,
(35:03):
we're going to turn thismassively on its head. And the two
things I want to do wasrefocus most of our investment into
our partners. We know that youbuy from people that you like.
Yep.
Yeah. How do I get these guysto love Eset more? And you think
about the motivation of apartner, what they interested in,
ease of use, profit margins isthe product sound, is that right?
(35:26):
So we build everything that wedo around those things. And the other
thing was brand perception wasso two things. There's brand awareness
but there's also theperception of the brand was probably
quite low and actually ourproducts are shit hot. So I was like,
how do I raise the percept?Two things that I can do is get more
involved with these channelguys, get them to love Eset more
(35:48):
through the motivations I'vejust talked about. But I can also
raise the perception of ourbrand. I've got the money to do that
by narrowing the net, sonarrowing the scope. And we did some
things like we just inSeptember, gone. We held our first
partner conference since Ithink 2018. Yeah. And it was great,
(36:08):
Ben, it was fantastic. Wasn't it?
Tell me about the event.
So in the past we've donedriving days, we've done in. In quite
corporate environments. And Iwas like, I don't want to do that.
So I was like, right, this is,this is what I'm thinking, guys,
to the two. We look for anamazing venue somewhere central in
(36:28):
the country that people canget to easily and we take it over
and we give people the besttime and we're like, okay, so, guys,
like, brilliant. Off we wentand we found this amazing venue just
north of Birmingham calledHallcross hall. And we took exclusive
use of the entire place. Andit's beautiful, right? It's like
big bloody country manor.Lovely, lovely lawns out the back,
(36:50):
but stunningly beautiful. Soinstantly when people arrived, there
was the wild factor. And, youknow, we branded it all. He said,
stunning. Really lovely eventin the evening, great content during
the day. Really great content.Some external speakers, some internal
speakers, some workshops. Andwe just really looked after people
and not in that over the top,you know, loads of booze. It wasn't
(37:13):
that. It was just made surethat they felt valued and they are
valued and welcomed and theorganization, Amy and my team was,
you know, Mrs. Spreadsheet.And there was no deviation from the
spreadsheet, but she knewexactly who was coming, what time
they were coming. We printedbespoke agendas for every single
person. We did really greatgifts. We got commissioned. Lego
(37:36):
eset, Lego. Just every littletouch point was really well thought
through. So we did the 80% ofthe organization, the 20% of Flair,
and the feedback's just beenstunning, stunningly brilliant. And
people feel educated, so ourpartners feel much more educated
about our products andservices, so they're enabled to sell
(37:57):
eset more effectively. Theylove us more because we've built
those relationships. And I hadthe full sales team there and just
the camaraderie and theconversation and those again, that
ability to build arelationship in human form.
Human connection.
Human connections.
Great memories.
Yes.
And learning things new.
Learning things new.
(38:17):
Fantastic.
Yeah, yeah.
And that's going to paydividends, isn't it, that event?
It will. You know, we'realready seeing. We're starting to
see some of the stuff off theback of it. Oh, God. Tell me about
your MDR products. I didn'tknow you did that. Come and can we
do a joint webinar? Can we doa joint marketing campaign together?
And so Caitlin, the channelmarketing manager, is now like inflow,
being barraged with requestsfor joint marketing activity. So
(38:39):
even that is like the Momentumthat will then drive pipeline into
Q1.
Next year and beyond, I guess.I mean, we started today talking
about, talking about brand andthe long term effect of it. But I
think when you mobilize acommunity like that and when you
really get a hold of, yeah,your channel partners and they get
a hold of you and that kindof, that symbiosis starts actually.
(39:01):
That's years worth of valuethat you get from one event, isn't
it?
Yeah. And again, you know,it's that relationship piece. It's
really like you'll love doingbusiness with you even if they're
10% more expensive. I know inmy own experience I'll buy from the
guys that I like.
It's all relate everything'srelationships, isn't it? It's all
about relationships.
Can I call? You know, in myprevious role we had a really great
(39:23):
outsourced design agency. Theguy was Exelgivy Maeva, he was based
in Yorkshire and greatrelationship with him. Fantastic.
But I knew I could call on himfor a favor. Nobody could get me
to deviate from that contractbecause I really liked his. I liked
his personality. We gelled. Wecould have great conversation and
(39:45):
I could call and say, I'm inthe shit, can you turn this round
in 24 hours? And they'd alwaysstep up. So there was, you know,
my design contract wasn'tgoing anywhere.
And he lived in God's county, obviously.
And he lived in God's county,obviously. Yeah.
I've got form when it comes toYorkshire, so I'm not gonna say any
more than that. So channel'sreally important. But you also have
one other initiative that is,I think is really interesting and
(40:07):
that's your activity with Bournemouth.
So we're based in Bournemouth,Our head office is in Bournemouth.
We are Seaside, which islovely. And before my time. So before
I joined the organization, wehad a marketing campaign called Safer
Kids Online. Does what it sayson the tin. Yeah. Loads of information
(40:27):
and, and campaigns aroundkeeping your kids safe online. Grassroots
level. And we started talking,or they had started talking to the
football club about anoutreach program. So obviously ESEC
can't go waltzing into schoolsteaching kids how to be safer online.
But the football club had anoutreach program which worked with
(40:47):
local schools and communitieson various things. We set up a program
where they would go intoschools, we created content and they
would spend time with thekids. Fantastic. It renewed the year
before I came and then when Icame in, I was looking at the activity
that we were doing. I waslike, this looks really interesting.
And the team there are greatis another thing, loads of investment
(41:11):
going in the football club.They are massively invested in the
community but also thebusiness community as well. So they
work really closely withVitality Stadium and they work really
closely with the university aswell. So it's like a really natural
fit there for us. Then Iemployed brand and partnerships manager.
She came in and I was likethis, this has got potential, like
(41:33):
run with it. And she was greatwith it. She really kind of got under
the skin and it needs thatagain. Where do you prove the value
of somebody spending time in afootball club seven days a week or
whatever? I couldn't at first,but it snowballed and the more that
she was there working with theteam and working with the guys, the
opportunity started coming into the point where we were offered
(41:54):
the opportunity to sponsor thewomen's team and again that fell
really nicely in the women'sagenda that we were looking at. So,
you know, we really promotewomen in tech. We've just sponsored
a lady student who's about toembark on her cyber degree at Bournemouth
Uni. So it played reallynicely and it's something that I'm
really passionate about,really invested in. So we sponsored
(42:16):
the women's team. That wasgreat. And then the opportunities
just started to come in, comein, come in. We looked at, they came
across to Eset World for us.They spoke about communities and
partnerships for us and again,like I said, Lena just really worked
that relations to a pointwhere we got into a conversation
about them, them using ourproduct, really nice symbiotic relationship
(42:38):
and us securing what is nowPremier League club. So there's a
bit of, there's a bit ofcontra deal going on there, but it
allows us exposure to footballfans on a Premier League stage and
also ties into that bit that Iwas talking about earlier about raising
the perception of our brand.Eset is now associated with a Premier
League club and we protect aPremier League club. So that was,
(43:02):
that's really cool, reallygreat for us.
So we're talking, I mean, youknow, we started today talking about
long term and brand buildingand we've talked through then about
how you've enabled your teamby having a kind of a flat structure
and creating the environmentthat allows them to get on and do
stuff. And now we're talkingabout relationships and the communities
(43:24):
that you're building and allof these things feed each other so
that your in a position therewhere you're building a brand without
having to buy $10 millionworth of media a year. But it's building
one brick at a time, Right?
Definitely. And also theopportunity to then take our partners
and our customers to thegames. So everybody loves a bit of
corporate hospitality comealong. And there's the Eset brand
(43:44):
all over the stadium. So,again, that perception, that raising.
Raising the bar, raising theperception of the brand is there.
So they've. It seems like it'sall been really well planned.
Of course it has been.
What are you talking about?Yeah, definitely. All those things
have just fallen really nicelyinto place. But I think, especially
for Lena, you know, with thatcontract, the ability to have the
(44:06):
breathing space to talk aboutthe opportunities to spend the time.
It's been three years in themaking to get us to where we are
now. Brand building, you couldargue, takes time. Takes time. And
it's really starting to paydividends for us. Now, tying into
that, we also took a box atWembley, which was a massive expense.
Yeah.
But it was.
(44:26):
But again, allows us to. Andit's branded. It looks beautiful.
It's really nice. Reallybougie. We get 12 tickets to every
event that's happening atWembley. I mean, we were lucky. We
got Taylor Swift and thenaway. Yeah, I wasn't, but I am now.
Okay, okay. I'm not a Swiftie.I haven't yet been.
She was bloody brilliant.Yeah. So we had all the Taylor Swift
(44:47):
dates, then all the Oasisdates landed, and then the Coldplay
tickets landed on top of allof the football. So leveraging those
as incentives into ourpartners to say, hey, look, let's
come in, let's do a spiffyday. Yeah, We've got the normal champagne
voucher started up. I've gottwo Oasis tickets for the guy that
brings me the. Or the girlthat brings me the most leads. And
then it's hot property.
And then they go, stuff money can't.
Buy and then they go, and. AndI said to the guys, if we're inviting
(45:10):
people, let's not just invitesingle whoever on a. On a night.
Let them bring their daughter,their husband, their wife, like,
come as an experience. BecauseI. I know myself, I don't want to
spend Saturday nights awayfrom my family, but if it's like,
hey, jp, there's two ticketsfor Oasis. Are you coming? Yes. So,
you know, small things likethat, and I think it's just thinking
(45:31):
about the human psyche of whatdo people actually want?
Making happy memories. Again.
Making happy memories. And thebox looks amazing. So, again, that
perception of who we are andthe sphere that we're operating in
is Raised again. So that was areal win for us.
I know eset for other reasons,but you know, when you, when you
took on the brand, as you say,you had 4% awareness and really an
(45:56):
uphill struggle because of thesector that you're in and the strength
of competitors.
Yeah.
But you have found a way ofcarving your own niche and, and being
able to build experience andmemories and relationships and community.
Yeah.
And going back to where westarted. Then when you go to speak
(46:18):
to your CFO now who you have agood relationship with, they will
understand the value of all ofthose things.
Yes. Because we've just hadsomething tangible on decent period
of growth. Yeah. First twoyears were tough and this year we're
on double digit growthforecast for the year end. And I
(46:39):
can attribute a lot, you know,I'm also very fastidious about campaign
codes. In Salesforce, we canattribute a lot of that activity
back to the marketing eitherfunded or leads that have been generated
by the team. We can track itall back and there, you know, it's
(47:01):
taken a long time, but we cansee it.
And that is a wrap, folks.Wow, wasn't Jules fantastic? I think
she really took us into somelike nitty gritty detail about what
makes marketing color not justwork, but resonate. And again, not
in the marketing department,but around the business as a whole.
So, Jules, thank you so muchfor taking the time to come and talk
(47:24):
to us. I know how busy youare. Well, as we have been doing
recently, let's close outtoday's episode with very, very quick
bit of reflection. And I'mgoing to start by saying this trust
builds an unshakablefoundation. Whether you are a marketer,
a business leader, maybe evenjust a curious listener that surfed
(47:44):
your way in. Remember thistrust isn't just an asset to the
business. Actually, it'sreally kind of the lifeblood of any
meaningful relationship. Andin business that's both inside and
outside your organ. Julesreminded us how brands that cultivate
trust purposefully create asafety net for themselves, for growth,
(48:04):
for resilience, and for impactin the event that you have some cataclysmic
thing happen to your business.It's trust that's going to save your
company. So it shouldn't betaken lightly. You should be building
methods of how to grow trustinto your day to day. Secondly, I
would say we learned todaythat shared experience, it really
(48:27):
is a secret sauce. We knowalready, and I've waffled about it
on this podcast again andagain and again that marketers jobs
isn't just about runningcampaigns in Jules parlance, she
said today it's about creatingconnections. And she challenged us
to think about how our workcan multiply value for our businesses
(48:47):
through real human moments,events if you like, or partnerships,
even small personal touchpoints that might linger in people's
minds. That's that mentalavailability that Byron Sharp talks
about all the time. Andfinally today we learned that empowerment
breeds excellence. And wewaffled a lot in the early days of
this podcast aboutorganizational design and that kind
(49:11):
of stuff. And I'm talking herereally about things like flat structure
as giving your teams autonomyand that important element, psychological
safety. Jules showed us howgiving teams the tools and trust
to take ownership can drivereal creativity and improve your
outcomes, which ultimately isgoing to improve the effectiveness
(49:32):
of your department because youknow when your team thrives, your
brand is going to shine. Now,before we sign off, I have a little
bit of homework for you to do.And this week is this. I want you
to identify one thing that youcan do this week either to build
trust or to create meaningfulexperiences or to empower your team.
(49:53):
Take some time to reflect onthat and then take action. And then
I want you to do exactly thatnext week. And then I want you to
do the same thing the weekafter and so on. If you do that,
and every week you askyourself that one question, what
can I do to do one of thesethree things? You will be well, well,
well on the way to buildingsomething truly great. Now, if you
(50:13):
loved today's episode as muchas I did, please don't forget to
share it with your network andfriends to subscribe or even to leave
a review. You can find us onall of.
Your favorite podcastplatforms and you can.
Reach me directly on LinkedIn.As always, keep chasing those unicorn
y moments. Those are themoments that make your work and your
world a little bit more magical.
I will see you next time.
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