Ep. 2 - The Boy At The Window

In this second upisode of UNKNOWN HORIZONS, Micheal and Jesse interview their friend Zach, who experienced a UFO sighting as a young child growing up in suburban Pennsylvania.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Tonight on Unknown Horizons, a youngPennsylvania boy awakens in the middle of the
night to find an unidentified flying objecthovering in the sky just outside his window.
Could this be a case of luciddreaming? Or are we being visited
by extraterrestrial explorers. I'm Jesse andI'm Michael, and this is Unknown Horizons.

(00:25):
But first the News. Not Laboratory, a renowned forensic engineering and animation
firm, has digitally reconstructed the assassinationof President John F. Kennedy. This
reconstruction was commissioned to examine the validityof the single bullet theory proposed by the
Warren Commission report. The findings,released ahead of the sixtieth anniversary of the

(00:48):
assassination, suggest the potential involvement ofa second gunman and a wider conspiracy to
kill the president. Utilizing modern technologysuch as high definition laser scans and photogram
Not Laboratory accurately recreated the scene tosupport their theory. Led by CEO and
Principal engineer Stanley Stole, Not Laboratoryconducted a thorough investigation using techniques like match

(01:11):
moving and point cloud measurement. Bysinking frames from the zapruder film with images
from the scene. They meticulously establishedthe positions of Kennedy and Governor Connolly throughout
the incident. The team's analysis ofbullet trajectories based on the entry and exit
points on the two individuals revealed asignificant angle difference from Oswald's shooting position on

(01:32):
the sixth floor of the Texas BookDepository. These findings challenged the conclusions of
the Warren Commission and suggest that thereis more to uncover about this historic event.
Well, the interesting thing there,Michael is and this article doesn't really
go into it, but this isnot the first time this has been done,
believe it or not. They weredoing three D computer scans of Daly

(01:53):
Plaza trying to investigate the same theoriesall the way back in nineteen eighty eight.
There is a Nova special from PBSfrom nineteen eighty eight that they did
for the twenty fifth anniversary of theassassination where they do I mean we're talking
really really primitive here, you know, black screen, green lines, simple

(02:13):
angles and all that. And agentleman by the name of Dale Myers did
it around the fortieth anniversary. Iwant to say it was two or three
and again three D scana Daily Plazausing the subpruter film to establish the exact
position of the limousine and the distancesfrom the sixth floor window where Oswald supposedly
was. And the interesting thing hereis all of these prior three D scans

(02:38):
that I have mentioned, they allcame to the conclusion that, No,
the wound at the base of Kennedy'sneck, it's a straight line all the
way back to the sixth floor window. So we may have to dig a
little further into this and see whatthe data hinted towards it supposedly not lining
up because again going back thirty fiveyears, all of the prior ones have

(03:00):
established no, the trajectory does lineup to the sixth floor window. Yeah.
Interesting. Yeah, we'll definitely haveto do like a deeper dive into
this to figure out what they diddifferently and how that led to the different
conclusion. We should get Dale Meyerson the show. I bet we could
track him down. Yeah, that'dbe really cool. With over forty years
of experience, Not Laboratory has establisheditself as a leading provider of forensic engineering

(03:21):
services. Their team of experts includinganimators, accident and reconstructionist and investigators.
Caters to various industries such as lawenforcement, insurance companies, and construction.
Headquartered in Centennial, Colorado, withmultiple locations across the United States, Not
Laboratory is known for its comprehensive approachto investigations, analysis, animation, production,

(03:43):
and expert witness testimony and their veryfarm. Now, but speaking of
witness testimony, we've got a storycoming straight out of Hollywood. Listeners.
Legendary actress Goldie Hawn recently shared aremarkable encounter with aliens during the mid nineteen
sixties. Hawan, known for herroles in Hollywood, recounted the incident on

(04:03):
the Apple audio program Time to Walk. Hauan had been contemplating the increase in
UFO reports, and one evening,while staring at the stars in California,
she sent a message to potential extraterrestrialvisitors, expressing her desire to meet them.
Astonishingly, around four months later,Hawn claimed that three silver entities with

(04:25):
triangular shaped heads appeared to her whileshe was trying to take a nap in
a friend's car. Hauan described thesebeings as quote droning during the visit,
and said that they seemed to bediscussing her. Although uncertain if the experience
was real or not, Hauan vividlyremembered the feeling of benevolence and love when
the extraterrestrials touched her face, describingit as a powerful and enlightening experience.

(04:50):
And that's another good topic idea thatwe should consider down the road with unknown
horizons. There are a lot ofcelebrity UFO sightings throughout history that we could
very easily discuss. Jimmy Carter sawUFO. Even John Lennon. Yeah,
that's the one that I was thinkingof. Yeah, yeah, Well,
heading back to Colorado for the nextstory. Stetson and Shannon Parker's tenth wedding

(05:13):
anniversary celebration in Southwest Colorado took anunexpected turn on October eighth when the Wyoming
couple claimed to have spotted Bigfoot ooh. The couple even managed to film the
siding while on a train that passedthrough the San Juan Mountains, and the
video has since sparked a heated debateabout its authenticity. While skeptics argued that
the figure in the video could bea bear or even a person in a

(05:34):
suit, the Parkers remained steadfast intheir belief that they witnessed the real Bigfoot.
The controversy surrounding the video has reignitedthe fascination and mystery surrounding this elusive,
cryptid Bigfoot. Enthusiast and experts haveanalyzed the video, offering various interpretations.
One major point of contention revolves aroundthe possibility that the figure in the

(05:56):
video is simply a person in agilli suit, a type of camouflage clothes
made up of loose strips or strandsof fabric, often resembling foliage, designed
to help individuals blend into their surroundings. Skeptics argue that certain characteristics, such
as the movement and size of thisalleged creature align more with a human wearing
camouflage rather than an actual bigfoot.On the other hand, proponents of the

(06:17):
Bigfoot theory argue that the creature's movementsand proportions depicted in the video are consistent
with other eyewitness accounts and other evidence. They suggest that the gilli suit explanation
fails to fully explain the unique characteristicsdisplayed by the figure. Regardless of the
skeptics, there is a dedicated communityof Bigfoot believers who remain hopeful that undeniable

(06:38):
proof of the creature's existence will oneday come to light. Until then,
the mystery surrounding Bigfoot will persist,captivating both believers and skeptics alike. Well,
you know, Michael, I amjust as much of a believer in
Bigfoot as anyone else in the paranormalcommunity. But I don't know if you've
seen this video, but looks likea guy in a gill suit. I

(07:00):
mean, it has the movements ofa guy running up a hill. It
definitely does not look like anything that'sseven to ten feet tall. Definitely doesn't
look like it weighs anywhere near fouror five hundred pounds. It looks like
a guy in a suit. ButI tell you what, listeners, We're
going to put that video footage onour social media. You can follow us

(07:23):
at Unknown Horizons Podcast on Instagram.That's all one word, Unknown Horizons Podcast.
And for our last story coming fromthe news desk tonight, this one
comes straight out of the American Midwest. According to research from Bette Michigan,
Ohio ranks high in both ghost andUFO sightings, while it ranked thirtieth overall

(07:46):
in paranormal activity, Ohio had thethird highest number of ghost sightings, with
two than nine hundred and forty ninesuch sightings reported, following behind Texas and
California, respectively. In terms ofUFO sightings, Ohio ranked eighth with four
thousand, three hundred and seventy onereported encounters, with California taking the top

(08:09):
spot. You see, they gotthe Goldie hawn bump they did. Indiana
ranked nineteenth overall in paranormal activity withtwo thousand, six hundred and sixty six
UFO sightings and two thousand, onehundred and seventy eight ghost sightings reported.
Now, you see, they shouldhave had the sixty six to six in
the ghost sightings. That would havebeen a little more creepy. Yeah,

(08:31):
there would have been a little twoon the nose. Yeah, it would
have been great. But you know, I mean, I'm sure there are
people out there in the community thatthink demons have something to do with UFOs,
but we're not going to go thatfar. Even here on unknown Horizons,
Kentucky ranked slightly above Ohio at twentyseventh with one thousand, six hundred
and sixty one UFO sightings and onethousand, two hundred and fifty one ghost

(08:52):
sightings. The data was collected fromGhosts of America and analyzed by Bette Michigan
researchers, who compare aired the numberof encounters to the population data of each
state to determine the likelihood of asupernatural sighting. Ohio, particularly Greater Cincinnati,
is known for its eerie stories andlocal legends such as the Loveland Frog

(09:13):
and haunted locations like the Spring GroveCemetery. I wonder what draws all of
these paranormal encounters to Ohio, becauseit's hell and these people were sinners during
their lives and their trapped here.But with that in mind, speaking of
unexplainable sightings, we've got quite anepisode for you listeners, calling in tonight

(09:35):
all the way from the Great Commonwealthof Pennsylvania. Everybody please join me in
welcoming Zach to unknown horizons. Zach, You've got a UFO story for us,
correct I do? All right?So when was this and in what
part of the country was it thatit would have been a south central PA.
This would have been very early twothousands, I want to say,

(09:58):
like two thousands were two thousand andfive. I was about a nine or
ten at a time. Small bitof background. I'm a classic lash Key
kid. And there was a periodaround this time where both my parents ended
up working night shift, so Ihad to go sleep at the neighbor's house
while they were at work, andthe sheep would be on the bus the
next morning. So one night thishappened, and I used to sleep on

(10:22):
an air mattress in her living room, and I woke up just completely drenched
in sweat, like the wettest Ihave ever been. And I got up
and almost sort of instinctively went tothe window and I looked up into the
night sky like I always did,and I'll get to that in a second,
and there was this thing in thesky next to the moon. It

(10:46):
was a just an enormous sphere.It was like almost like a matte black
with scattered little lights all over it. And I'm not even gonna try I
reckon the size of it, justbecause space distance not really don't get compare
it to but I mean when itwent over the mood it blocked it out

(11:07):
to give them a little bit ofcontext, And I just sat there and
I stared at it and just watchedit move across the sky, and the
way it moved was a little odd. I guess, again, just a
little bit of context. South CentralPA is kind of a nexus of air
traffic. We have numerous small airportsaround the area, like Harrecksburg, but

(11:31):
we also obviously get a lot ofrunnover from like JFK in New York and
you know, Reagan and Baltimore,and there's a lot of air traffic around.
So I'm very useful in the skyand how they move. But with
the UFO, it just it movedlike it didn't belong in the sky.
And that's the only real way Ican describe it. I think the best

(11:54):
way I can compare the locomotion wouldbe like if you had like those fridge
mad Get letters and you just sortof slowly slid one across the fridge.
That's probably the closest thing I cancome to. And I guess what I
mean by that is it's very hardto describe it. It almost had this

(12:16):
weird two D effect, like somethingwas like moving in front of like the
normal plane of I don't know existence. I guess it was just very odd
that I can't to, you know, quote my favorite author. It's indescribable,
and so that was basically it.I watched the thing move across the
sky and soil it was no longerin my line of sight. And I

(12:39):
think the weirdest part about it wasjust sort of my reaction to the whole
thing. Immediately after. I wasjust kind of dumbfounded, and I sat
back down on my air mattress andturned on the TV, which has always
been kind of my uh, Idon't know, the thing that I go
back to that sort of proved thatI wasn't just dreaming or having some you

(13:03):
know, sleepwalking episode or something.Yeah, it was like the way you
grounded yourself, right, Yes,that's thank you. That's the term I
was looking for. So I turnedon the TV, and I always remember
because she had HBO and we didn't, and the water Boy was on,
and it was the first time Ihad ever seeing the water Boy. So
I just basically watched that until itwas over with the bed again around like

(13:24):
four o'clock, and that was that. Now, the reason I say that
I think my reaction was so weirdto it is when I was a kid,
I was absolutely obsessed with the supernaturaland the paranormal. I had trapper
keepers full of documents I printed offfrom like the Mothman's website I think,
I don't forget what exactly was called, but anything cryptid related, anything paranormal,

(13:46):
I would just printing off the computerand like stick hit in the binder.
I had books upon books that Ihad inherited from my dad and my
granddad about spooky stuff. Watched theX Files every week with my parents.
I mean, was my life likeit was based on the cornerstone of my
personality. So with all that said, you'd think having the UFO experience,

(14:07):
I would be ecstatic. I'd bejumping up for joy, and I feel
some sort of like vindication. Andthat's not really how it happened at all.
I just kind of moved on andstopped thinking about it, and it
didn't really recur to me or Ireally start actively thinking about it again until

(14:28):
I got into my twenties, andI realized at that point how odd it
was. This was so trivial inthe grand speed of things. And I
don't know, I don't know howmuch of my own philosophy is coloring the
incident or not, but I've alwaysfelt that my sort of lack of reaction.
To me, it's always indicated thatthere's something more going on up there

(14:50):
than just in debts and bolts craft. I mean, I think that could
be something too. I don't reallythink that there is one answer to the
UFO question. But to me,what I experienced, and I don't know,
it just it made me uncomfortable.It made me uneasy. There was
something almost like predatory about the presence, like I was looking at something that

(15:13):
I wasn't supposed to. I kindof compare it to and you ever like
walked into the house and you cantell that your parents have just immediately stopped
fighting, like the second you walkedin. When you like walk into a
room where somebody has been like sickfor a while, and you could just
kind of like feel it in theatmosphere, you know, there's just that
overwhelming like sickness in the air.It's kind of like that, but like

(15:35):
with anxiety, it's an oppressive feeling. Yes, yes, definitely. And
it was again it was like I'dseen something that I wasn't supposed to,
and so it felt dirty and wrong, and I didn't really want to talk
about it. And I suppose therewas also just the stigma of, you
know, worrying that like no onewill believe me. But I mean I

(15:56):
had probably the most accepting fan inthe world. My dad and grandfather would
have been fascinated, if anything,and I just had no desire to share
the experience. And like I said, it kind of colored my view of
what's up there, or at leastsome of what's up there, and I
think some of it and I justdon't like it's the benevolent space brothers of

(16:19):
like the fifties and sixties. Again, I'm very uncommitted. I don't like
to will about anything as far asthe UFO mystery goes, but I definitely
think something up there a little bitdarker, a little bit more sinister.
Of course, as you guys know, because I guess cats out of the
bad you guys know me in mypersonal life. I don't know how much

(16:41):
my sort of later interest in cosmichorror and nihilistic philosophy has kind of colored
the experience over time. And youknow, memory is a sickle thing,
and I admit all that, butI do I have to you know,
all that aside act to just theweird reaction that I had to it.

(17:03):
And that's why we stuck with memore than anything else. Well, to
go back to you just mentioned cosmichorror. This object that you observed in
the sky, did you get theimpression that it was a craft or an
organic being? That's interesting. Iwant to say that the lights on it

(17:27):
did seem to resemble more of likea buyer luminescence than a mechanical craft,
mainly just because they were very sporadicallyplaced. There was no pattern. There
was no sense that it was indicatingbits and pieces or warning like you know
the way you see like lights atthe end of an aircraft's wings or underneath

(17:51):
or or something like that. Therewas no real rhyme or reason to it.
And the lighting patterns were also verysporadic, so I would definitely compare
it or to something you'd see likein the deep seas than a traditional,
you know, flying saucer type deal. And were these lights static or were

(18:11):
they flickering? Were they glowing inand out of each other? They were
static location, but flickering on andoff. So it wasn't like a flow
or like a sort of like anled string or something. It was just
kind of one flash on a largerobject and then another one would go off
on another part of the object.It was very sporadic. Did you feel

(18:32):
as though this object in the skywas observing you at the same time you
were observing it? Yeah, Ormaybe the best way to put it is
the sense that it would have thecapability to acknowledge me, If that makes
sense. I don't. I feelalmost like it's too self centered or even

(18:53):
a little work to anthropocentric to thinkthat it would give a crap about like
a little ten year old kid,miss pajama up at it. But I
feel like everybody leaf in the presenceof something that could acknowledge me if it
shows. Yeah, I'm imagining almostlike the feeling you get when you,
I don't know, see like alike you go to the zoo or something
and the animal just like kind oflooks at you like it knows you're there

(19:17):
and sees that you're there, butit doesn't really like want much to do
with you. Was it something likethat that kind of vibe correct? Or
maybe kind of the opposite of that. It would be more like how an
ant would feel if a person waslike towering above it, if the ant
somehow had the ability to have aconscious thought. But I guess, so

(19:38):
just the thing seemed to be ona much graindier scale than to us.
Now, I know you mentioned itwould be a fool's errand to estimate the
size of this object due to allof the many factors at play here,
we don't even know if this objectwas within our atmosphere or outside of it.
But you did mention that at onepa point it's trajectory had it crossing

(20:03):
the moonlight. Once that happened,what was the size difference between the moon
and this object as it passed overit? In that sense, I mean
it completely covered the moonlight. Imean it was completely obscured and the sky
more resembled. Well, it's thearea I mean has a lot of light
pollution. I lived near a verylarge tech manufacturing facility, so it was

(20:27):
never pitch black, But I don'twant to say that it like, you
know, cast a shadow over theentire neighborhood or anything like that. But
it was definitely large enough that thisheared the moon of the pass over it.
Now, I don't know if thatjust means it was a lot closer
than it appeared, or if itwas more massive size, And just for
my own curiosity, can you describelike the movement. Was it kind of

(20:48):
like a quick, jerky motion orwas it kind of like a smooth like
like a gliding. Yeah, itwas a very slow, sort of ponderous
glide. When you described the movementas being similar to magnets falling down the
surface of a refrigerator, it conjuredup the visual of you know how when

(21:10):
it's raining, if you're sitting ina car, or you're sitting by a
window and you watch a droplet ofwater kind of navigating its way down the
pane and linking up with other streaksof water and gliding even further and even
more awkwardly. Was it that sortof movement or did it feel like it
had a clear path, a cleardestination of where it wanted to go?

(21:32):
I would say it definitely had moreof a clear path. Again, it
was a whole magnet thing. Asyou say, that's not a perfect metaphor.
It was more just like at leasttwo planes moving against each other.
Again, and maybe it's not avery effectual way to describe it, but
it just it didn't seem like itwas wholly here, I guess if that

(21:56):
makes sense. It did not seemlike it was moving in a way that
something in the sky should. Well, we see that a lot with these
UFO sightings. One of the thingsthat make these objects or crafts or whatever
they are stand out immediately is tothe human mind, the motion that we
see in these objects up in thesky does not correlate with our instinctive understanding

(22:19):
of the laws of physics. Thethings we see up there during these experiences
don't resemble the movement of an airplaneor a helicopter or even a drone.
As we've moved further into modern timeswhere that sort of technology is available to
the average consumer, and I thinkthat's why a lot more of these incidents

(22:41):
have been taken seriously recently. It'snot just the recent revelation of government documents
and videos regarding unidentified flying objects.It's I don't know, the movement is
just so undescribable and uncharacteristic of ourterrestrial technology here that it begs further examination.

(23:04):
Yeah, we've definitely like seen theconstraints of our technology and how that
can like affect aircraft and the waythey move in the sky or like shapes
like this, like Zach is describing, like it's almost like ponderous in the
way that it moves, like itdoesn't require any inertia or anything like that.
Like, it's really hard to describe, but I can understand why that
would be so incredibly eerie. Andwe've also seen I don't know if death

(23:26):
would be the right word, butwe've seen a serious decline in reported sightings
of the classic saucer shaped craft thatwe saw, you know, in nineteen
fifty science fiction lore. We've evenseen the decline of UFO culture staples like
the cigar shaped craft. Lately,we have seen more and more of these

(23:48):
strange objects, strange in shape,strange in demeanor, and definitely strange in
the trajectory of movement that definitely donot seemed to be inspired by any current
pop culture movement or media. Imean, let's face it, folks,
a lot of the alleged sightings duringthe Project Blue Book era, a lot

(24:11):
of them were people with a polaroidcamera throwing a hubcap in the air,
you know what I mean. Andwe are seeing less and less of this.
I honestly think the Gulf Breeze incidenthelped put a nail in that cough
and people began to realize that youcan't really fake saucer sightings that well anymore,
and a lot of that fraudulent reportingfell by the wayside, leaving what

(24:36):
I believe to be the more honestreporting out there. Yeah, definitely,
there's just so many different reports outthere of like credible sightings, and like
even with Zach siding, like Ihave a really hard time, like I
don't think that you made this up. Like I know that a lot of
people their first instinct might be that, oh, you know, you just
had like sleep paralysis or something.But there's a lot of things out in

(24:59):
the world that are unexplainable, andeven if it's not extraterrestrial, Like I
mean, the fact that you sawthis like it's I don't know, it's
amazing, Like I really can't putit into words like it's And I know
that we all come from like we'reall cut from the same cloth, Like
we're all interested in like the darkand creepy and the macabre and all that
stuff. And I don't know,like it's strange that you saw this thing

(25:19):
and your first instinct wasn't to likelike celebrate it or anything, cause I
know that, like I've had myown experiences and they were almost like similar
to yours, like they weren't.I don't know, it was like just
unexplainable, Like your brain is tryingto comprehend what you saw and the fact
that it doesn't comply with like whatthe technology we've been exposed to on Earth

(25:42):
is. Like it just like,yeah, I'm really having hard time putting
into words, but it's just thereare certain things in this world that once
you see them, your brain can'tunsee them. And I'm really trying to
figure out how to say that,but you guys know what I'm saying.
It also raises the question that Iwill posit here to you as well,
Zach, do you feel there wasany outside influence And I don't mean from

(26:06):
your peers, but do you feelthat there was some sort of influence emanating
from what you witnessed in the skythat encouraged or directed you not to speak
out about it. That's an interestingquestion. I've kind of gone either way
on it, and to be honest, I'm not sure that I want to
know. As I mentioned early onat the very beginning of the story,

(26:32):
the whole thing was jump started byme waking up in this cold slop sweat,
and I don't know if to arelated they seem to be. I
mean, I am a very humanheat box, but I've never had anything
at that level that I remember.I mean, this air mattress I was
sleeping on was sooked, and I'mnot did not ernate the bed, be

(26:56):
clear, I mean I was likehead to toe. It was closer to
like that I had just jumped intoa pool. And I don't know that
was some sort of instinctive reaction oryou know, the possibility has popped into
my mind on some late nights ifmaybe I wasn't experienced, if me waking

(27:19):
up in that bed in that statewasn't the end of the experience, and
maybe something more had happened, youknow, if it was an actual craft.
Who knows. I have very mixedfeelings on the whole abduction phenomenon,
and I don't put any stock inthe hypnosis or you know, recovered memories

(27:41):
in relation to alien abduction. SoI've never really had any interest in exploring
that. I've never had any youknow, nightmares that would imply that maybe
something happened. But in the factof my brain, I do wonder every
now and then, But I don'tlike to put too much spot in language
to tell you the truth because ofthe as I mentioned, the one vibe

(28:03):
I did get from it was thatit was not a benevolent you know,
green little man in the sky,whatever it was, whether the influence was
external, it was more of apresence or uh, you know, some
sort of or if it was justa sort of a more instinctual reaction to

(28:26):
the unknown, or more of ayou know, just an overwhelming sense of
shame or just being a kid notreally knowing how to process that are expressed
it properly, I'm not sure.I kind of lean more to that direction
that it was more of just notreally knowing what to do with it.
But I mean to really get intothat, i'd have to go into my

(28:47):
my thoughts on you know, thetrickster element of some of this stuff,
and uh it's you know, withoutgoing too far into that, I do
think whatever that is, or atleast one element of it does like the
attention and does kind of want yourrant and raise and make yourself with nuts
on the internet. I call itthe Chambers effect, much like the kids

(29:15):
referring to that the King in Yellowfor like the more exposure you get to
it the crazy area that you become. I do think a lot of people
to get to the paranormal suffer fromthe Chambers effect the longer they're in it,
as evidenced by a certain Bigfoot group. But I know we're both in.
Yes, I know exactly what you'retalking. But also to bring it

(29:36):
back around to something that you hadmentioned earlier, you said that when you
awoke in this state drenched in sweat, your first impulse was to go to
the window, and you said youwould touch on that later. Why was
that your first impulse? Ironically,because I would always be looking for UFOs,
so anytime I had the night sky, I would just stare up and

(30:00):
looked and hope to see something outof the ordinary. And again, it's
just a sort of increase of thecontrast there between what I had done every
night and then I finally I guessit's sort of a careful what you wished
for in situation, because I finallydid look up once and saw what I
wanted to see and didn't really gothe way I thought it would. Well,
it was definitely in the zeitgeist atthe time. We are of the

(30:22):
same age, we are elder millennialsas they refer to us, and the
early to mid nineties saw possibly thebiggest boom in UFO culture since the mid
nineteen fifties. Not only did wehave the Discovery Channel TLC and the Sci
Fi Channel running a slew of documentaryprogramming about unexplained phenomena in the sky,

(30:45):
we also saw one of the biggestwaves of UFO films, feature films in
the theaters and on television. Therewas Fire in the Sky. There was
the television movie Roswell with Martin Sheen. There was Independence Day, the X
Files, the X Files. Itwas everywhere at the time. So I

(31:06):
know a lot of skeptics might say, well, you know, the witness
was already infatuated with the idea ofseeing UFOs, but let's face it,
most children of that day and agewere, so I don't feel that that's
a reason to discount any eyewitness testimonyat that time. I always laugh when
people talk about how Roger Patterson wasa bigfoot buff and they're like, oh,

(31:29):
see, that makes the Patterson Gimmelinfootage suspect. He was a bigfoot
buff. He was on an expeditionto find Bigfoot and it's like, well,
if he was on an expedition tofind Bigfoot, that would make him
a very good candidate for someone whodid find Bigfoot. I personally believe that
footage is real because I have seengorilla costumes from the late nineteen sixties and
they look ridiculous compared to Patty,the name given to the sasquatch that appears

(31:56):
in that footage. And I'm notjust talking about what be bought in a
costume shop at that time. I'mtalking about big budget films. The creature
that appears in that footage looks muchmore like a biological animal than Planet of
the Apes or any of the KingKong movies or anything at that time.
So again, I think it's areal cop out when skeptics say, oh,

(32:21):
well, the witness already had aninterest in that phenomenon, So it's
suspect you don't mind if I couldpiggyback off of that just for a minute,
to kind of go back to somethingthat you had said earlier. By
all means, you know, inthat time period, the late nineties and
early two thousands, we were kindof coming off the end of I think
the Black Triangles moment in the spotlight, and he still had reports of cigar

(32:45):
shaped stuff, and popular media wasdefinitely upholding, like the whole Salcer idea.
And you know, what I sawwas more of a you know,
a fear, and we really haven'tseen that until the more recent and I
a little suspective anything the government putsout, but the more recent like tic
TAC videos and some of the moresome of the stuff that you know,

(33:07):
to the Stars Academy put out andwhatnot. And I mean, again it's
maybe it's a little self centered,but I've always been a little bit more
inclined to believe other reports that I'veheard from other people when the craft in
question doesn't really meet the standard ofthe time, because I think the more
standardized the report is, the betterchance that it was just actually probably government

(33:29):
tech that wasn't released yet. Well, of course, because there was all
of the sightings of the boomerang shapedcraft in the seventies and the eighties,
and then of course it came outthat it was the government testing stealth bombers.
At least that was the convenient explanationat the time. But you do
bring up a very interesting point becausethat was one of the leadings the Black

(33:50):
Triangle. There was again the boomerangshaped craft which we saw in the Phoenix
Lights sightings at the time, Sowe had definitely moved away from more traditional
quote unquote flying saucer sightings to somethinga little bit more mill tech looking,
something a little angular or geodesic,if you will. And that's why I

(34:14):
was more inclined to believe a lotof the strange footage that was coming out
at the time of the orb likecrafts, the smaller crafts which a lot
of ufologists have posited could have beendrones for larger crafts. I remember there
was footage that I saw on televisionwhen I was a child, and I
want to say that this footage wastaken and I believe Israel, and it

(34:36):
was of a city square at night, and this ball of light just came
down from the sky and sort ofhovered around, moved around in a series
of seemingly random directions, almost likeit was looking for something, and then
shot up quicker than any known aircraftthat was developed by humans at the time

(34:58):
and probably still to this time,just immediately zipped right off back into the
air. And I thought that thatwas very interesting because again if you were
going to fake something at that time, you probably would have made the video
feature a black triangle or a boomerangshaped craft or thrown a hub cap in
the air like the people did inthe fifties and sixties when they were faking

(35:20):
this stuff. But again, likeyou said, I am with you on
that that I am much more inclinedto believe the first hand eyewitness account of
someone who is describing something that wehave not seen before in prior UFO media.
Yeah, and kind of add onto that, like like Zach mentioned
before, like Jesse and I weboth know Zach were friends with him,

(35:42):
and we have been for a littlebit. We've never met before, have
we. But there's I can't thinkof a single reason why someone like Zach
would want to like make up astory like this, like for just for
clout. And I know that alot of people say, like, oh,
you know, people who make upthese stories are just looking for attention
or something like that, But weboth know Zac to be like a pretty

(36:05):
honest, like I don't want tosay cynical, but you're like, I
feel like you're the type of personthat when you see something like this,
like you're probably not going to tryand scream from the rooftops and draw attention
to yourself like you described, likeyou almost internalized it, Like yeah,
you started to doubt yourself and likethink that you were questioning what it was
instead of trying to tell everyone whatyou saw. And if I could piggyback

(36:30):
on that as well for listeners whodo not know, Michael and I appear
on a separate podcast, I guessyou could call it a side project called
Podcast twelve eighty nine, where weroutinely lampoon UFO hoaxers and fakers and generally

(36:50):
questionable stories, like we recently releasedan episode about the Travis Walton incident,
which when we were kids growing upin the nineties. Again, through the
Discovery Channel documentaries and the release ofFire in the Sky the Future film was
pretty much taken as gospel truth inthe UFO community that this was one of
the most compelling real life accounts ofan alien abduction incident, whereas now it

(37:15):
seems a little more suspect. Butthe point that I'm trying to make here
is we have no problem calling outpeople on their bullshit for lack of a
better term, if we feel thatthe story isn't true. And when we
have zach On as a guest onpodcast twelve eighty nine, Zach is one

(37:37):
of the most vicious critics of thesefake stories that are out there. He
will tear these stories to shreds.So again, you're going to have to
take our word for it, listeners, But as far as Michael and I
go, I would vouch for theintegrity of Zach in this story. And

(37:58):
also this is not too insane toyour account in any way, but I
feel like if someone was trying tomake up a UFO story, it would
be a little more compelling and excitingthan what you saw. I'm actually glad
you said that, because, especiallyin the modern era, indeed, like
sort of post Creepy Boss the world, I do think that a lot of

(38:22):
people try to add too much dramaticflare, and in my experience, people
who had a really experienced as aparanormal a very black and white and honestly
relatively kind of a boring story,And so the more cinematic it becomes,
the more ferociously my DS meter startsto go off. Again, I'm not

(38:44):
saying it's always the case, becausethere certainly are people who have gone through
really dramatic and traumatic things relationship tosupernatural. But there's a definite there's a
definite redditness about a lot of storiesthat you see out there the days.
I think if you're familiar with internetculture, they stick out like the fourth

(39:05):
I think unfortunately a lot of researchersand enthusiasts who a couple of years our
senior aren't really familiar with the waythe Internet works, and regularly the Stanton
Freedman's of the world. Yeah,well, likening back to like what Zach
was saying a few minutes ago,you know, like everyone tries to see

(39:27):
themselves as like, you know,the hero of their own story. And
I think in a lot of theseUFO stories, people try and insert,
you know, motivations for the youknow, the craft or whatever it is
they think they saw, Whereas,like Zach was talking about earlier, like
in his story, he was basicallythe ant. Like normally, if there's
a craft like that, it wouldnot notice something as insignificant to them as

(39:52):
an ant. And I think thatthat's what makes his story and other stories
like it more compelling, because youknow, there's not some motivation, there's
no I don't know there's no herojourney, like that's not real life,
Like real life is something is justyou know, inexplainable as this was.
And I think that's what is reallycompelling about it. Well, that's what

(40:13):
I like about some commonalities that yousee in the writings of HP. Lovecraft.
Like Zach had mentioned with cosmic Horrorand with popular uphologist John Keel,
it's almost the impossibility of knowing whatthe motivations of these entities are, if
they even have them. There isa great line in the film The Mothman

(40:37):
Prophecies where the character doctor Alexander Leak, who is a thinly veiled substitute for
John Keel, says to Richard Gear'scharacter, who is also sort of the
inverse substitute of John Keel, hesays, you're more advanced than a cockroach.
Have you ever tried explaining yourself toone of them? And I always
thought that really put things into perspectivethat if we are truly dealing with advanced

(41:02):
intelligence, utilizing advanced technologies from beyondthe stars to cross galaxies from one end
of the universe to the other tovisit us, would we even be able
to comprehend why and that's all forthis week. Listeners tune in next week
as we bring you our conversation witha caller who very nearly became the final

(41:25):
victim of one of America's most infamousserial killers. As always, I'm Jesse
and Michael and this has been unknownHorizons. They were talking, I'm learning

(42:01):
all across the issue, then acrossthe world and turning the head's s big,
I'm so crappish. I'm no,that's got to driving the sand fday
was filling scared. But my fatherspecial Fridge the dis turns his buds that
everybody ever, everybody was their memoriesand every Goddy and shows heard the most

(42:27):
to song and Russians from us.Were they sure again? And they say
by sing Marris the wi filled,I'm almost into the Vegas second. Well,
let's show they come so far longass just going scale