Ep. 3 - The Final Victim

Join Micheal and Jesse as they interview an Illinois native who very possibly avoided a fateful encounter with one of America's most infamous serial killers.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Tonight on Unknown Horizons. December nineteenseventy eight, a young Illinois boy is
followed home by a strange man inhis car. A simple case of stranger
danger or could he very nearly havebeen the final victim of one of America's
most infamous serial killers. With youasoways, I'm Jesse and I'm Michael,

(00:21):
and welcome to Unknown Horizons. Butfirst the news. A former US Air
Force security officer has spoken publicly forthe first time about a UFO sighting in
California twenty years ago. In Octobertwo thousand and three, military contractors working

(00:41):
for Boeing in the Air Force Policewitnessed an unidentified flying object described as quote
a gigantic floating red square floating overan air base in California. The object
was over one hundred yards long andwas allegedly seen hovering over a launch site
at Vandenberg Air Force Base. Theincident recently came to light during sworn testimony

(01:03):
given before Congress by Lieutenant Ryan Gravesin July. Now, an ex United
States Air Force Senior patrolman, JeffNucatelli, has come forward to shed further
light on the eerie events. Nukatelliemphasized the credibility of witnesses, stating that
they were contractors with top secret clearancesand trained observers. He also revealed a

(01:26):
second reported encounter where two of hisfellow officers were quote buzzed by the UFO.
Nukatelli believes that at least eighty peopleare aware of the alleged sighting,
and he has shared his knowledge withthe Pentagon's All Domain Anomaly Resolution Office,
also known as ARO. The interestin UFOs has been growing, with hundreds

(01:47):
of sightings reported in recent months.A senior Pentagon official stated that their office
received approximately eight hundred reports of unidentifiedobjects as of April twenty twenty two.
Public interest in US UFOs was furthersparked by that July hearing in Congress where
a former member of the National GeospatialIntelligence Agency testified about the US government's possession

(02:09):
of quote non human craft. Furthermore, a formal office to investigate reports of
unidentified aerial phenomena was established under theBiden administration and over to you, Michael.
In some more spectral news, theLincoln, Nebraska Transportation and Utilities Department
has released a video capturing what appearsto be a ghostly siding on one of

(02:30):
their Startran buses. The video recordedby the buses security cameras shows the ghost
enjoying a peaceful ride around the cityand even engaging with other passengers. According
to LTU director Liz Eliot, thedepartment believes the ghost to be friendly and
perhaps even a bit mischievous. Ina press release, Elliott stated, it

(02:52):
appears the ghost is choosing transit toget to where it needs to go safely,
efficiently, and in an environmentally friendlyway. This unique encounter has left
many intrigued and wondering about the mysteriesof the supernatural. For those interested in
learning more about Star Trein and thetransportation services provided, additional information can be
found on the city's website. Justgoes to show that in this economy,

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even ghosts have to take the bus. And back to the subject of UFOs
ring, the home security company recentlyreleased a selection of amusing video clips from
there Out of This World competition.The competition offered a one million dollar prize
for capturing quote unaltered scientific evidence ofa real extraterrestrial life form using a ring

(03:38):
device, Although most participants fell shortof capturing such Evidence. Ring encouraged users
to submit creative and funny alien videosfor a chance to win a five hundred
dollars Amazon gift card. Submissions werejudged based on creativity, humor, and
engagement. The contest ran from Octoberfourth to November third, and while no

(03:59):
fe finalist winners have been announced yet, Ring shared a few notable submissions online.
These included toy green aliens with ahumorous sign about car warranties, an
alien hanging on a string claiming tohave forgotten their pants on their spaceship,
and a skit featuring an alien usingtelekinesis to knock out a human and take
their candy with extra terrestrial flair.And we will share some of those highlights

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on our social media page. Youcan find us on Instagram at Unknown Horizons
podcast. That's all one word,Unknown Horizons Podcast and back over to you.
Michael Rex Huerman, the suspect inthe Long Island serial killer case,
appeared in court on Wednesday, Novemberfifteenth, with his wife Assa Ellup present

(04:46):
for the first time since his arrest. Ellerup's attorney confirmed that she had visited
Huerman in jail for an hour,marking their first meetings since he was taken
into custody. Hureerman is currently facingcharges related to the murders of Melissa Bartholome,
Meghan Waterman, and Amberlin Costello,and is also a strong suspect in
the murder of Mariene Brainerd Barnes.Speculation has arisen regarding their Massapequa home,

(05:10):
with some suggesting that Rex Huerman mayhave brought some sex workers back there,
implicating his wife. However, herattorney vehemently denies these allegations, stating that
Asa Alerip had no involvement in Huerman'salleged crimes. All four victims in Huerman's
case were sex workers, and theremains were among those discovered near Gilgo Beach
between twenty ten and twenty eleven.Hureman's next court date is scheduled for February

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fourth, twenty twenty four. Andin one last piece of bizarre news Listeners,
Whitney Thor, known for her appearanceon My Big, Fat Fabulous Life,
recently shared her belief that she hasbeen abducted by aliens. It's a
very alien heavy newsweek Listeners. Thorexplains that whenever she goes through airport security,

(05:59):
she consistently, he receives a patdown, with particular attention given to
a specific area on her inner leg. According to Whitney, airport security personnel
have mentioned that it appears there isa small piece of metal in that area.
During the conversation on a recent episodeof My Big, Fat, Fabulous
Life, Whitney's brother Hunter asked herif she believes she has a probe in

(06:19):
her leg. Whitney responded in theaffirmative, stating, that's what I'm saying.
Whitney admits that she generally doesn't shareher abduction theory with others, but
that she genuinely believes that aliens havetaken her and implanted something in her leg.
Now, with all of that outof the way, listeners, tonight
we have a very very unsettling story. I don't want to give too much

(06:43):
away because it is definitely one ofthe most harrowing tales we have been told
yet, So without any further ado, listeners, I hope you will all
join me in welcoming our next guest, Paul, to unknown horizons. Paul,
could you, as far as youare comfortable, introduce yourself a little
background and walk us through the storyyou told us about Yeah, my name

(07:09):
is Paul Russell. I'm a extvideo game industry artist who worked on Halo
for twelve years, and I alsodid a bunch of artwork for punk bands
like Screeching Easel. Anyway back inDecember of nineteen seventy eight, I was
walking home from school, Junior High. It was cold, sunny, three

(07:30):
thirty in the afternoon, sun wasstarting to set, and as I'm walking
up my street, you know,crunching in the snow, I hear a
car coming up a hill behind me, very slowly, kind of matching my
walking speed with its tires kind ofcrunching because I didn't really plow my street
very often. And as I turnedinto my driveway, I turned to look

(07:51):
at the car, and the carhad flowed down to nearly a stop and
then kind of sped up and thentook off down the street. It was
a black like two door, kindof a newish carpet you'd be you look
at Brnolds or something. And Iget to the front door, I let
myself in, and I'm a littlecreeped out by that, so I lock
the door when I get inside,and I go to my room and about
twenty minutes later, the phone ringsand I pick up the phone and it's

(08:16):
being you know, my parents' bedroom, which is really kind of dark,
and my parents have like the wallpaperthat look with the forest seen green shag
carpeting, and I just kind ofremember that mood is in the room.
There was lights coming in from theguest bedroom and all that kind of stuff.
And I pick up the phone and, uh, you know, hello,
and the voice on the other endsays, Hey, I saw you
walking home alone, look kind ofalone. What's your name? My name's

(08:41):
Paul, My name's John. Sohow old are you? Paul? Eleven?
Eleven is a good age to start? And I said start what des
And I found the phone right andwe got crank calls like this all the
time, not too unusual, verycreepy, and I hung up and that

(09:03):
was that. About a week later, all of a sudden, we're getting
all these news reports about the serialkiller in my talent displays Illinois and how
they had dug up thirty three bodiesin his crawl space had gone missing the
same week that this guy called me, and the killer's name was John Lee

(09:26):
and Kathy, and I said tomy parents, I'm like this mo o
sounds the same. You know.He would kind of groom kids after kind
of following them or meeting them orpicking them up or whatever, and kind
of groomed them to kind of youknow, lonely kids, you know,
kind of come by his place andplay video games, and then he torture

(09:48):
them and kill him and bring himin his crawl space. And I said
to my dad, I was justlike, I think that was him.
I think that guy that called,you know a couple of weeks ago,
I think that was I think itwas John Gayzy death. Like now,
it's just some prank college just coincidence, good, you know. And there's
this thing where I think about thisstory a lot, you know, and

(10:09):
I want to be cognizant and thefact that I could just be filling in
blanks and that there's a lot ofit. It could be just coincidence that
it happened around the same, youknow, the same couple of weeks.
The guy's name is John Gaycy,drove a two door black Oldsmobile or something
is in the same town. Youknow it. Yeah, all this stuff
lines up to me, But itreally could have just been a prank call,

(10:31):
and it could be you know thatsomebody was driving on the street looking
for an address. But that partof it is interesting to me. But
it really like, for the longesttime, I was pretty convinced that it
was Gayzy, and I still thinkthere's a case to be made for it.
You know that I could have endedup being his last victim. Oh
understandably, Yeah, But it wasone of those things where you find out

(10:52):
when a story came on the newsand they broke the thing, I was
just like, oh crap, thatwas probably that guy. Well also,
so well, you mentioned the possibilitythat it could have been a prank call,
and of course we all know thefun that we had as kids going
into maybe even early to mid teenageyears prank calling. But growing up as
a child in nineteen seventy eight,displanes would it have been common to get

(11:15):
a prank call from an adult,because I'm pretty sure you recognize John's voice
on the phone as an adult andnot another eleven year old or even a
fourteen year old. Right, definitelyan adult. I'm not going to say
it hasn't happened, you know,I mean there were a lot of you
know, I mean, my friendsand I have gotten pervy calls before becus

(11:39):
its prey answering machines, pre callerID. Yeah, so when the phone
rang, you pretty much picked itup, you know. So there were
a couple times where we got kindof like, hey, you seem pretty
cute. You got a cute littlevoice, you want to you know,
stuff like that. So there wassome pervy stuff, and then there was
other stuff that was just kind oflike more child's play. Yeah, but

(12:00):
I mean like calling up a kidand saying, how old are you?
That's a good age to start.That's not a funny haha prank, you
know. No, And the voiceon the other end of the call,
it wasn't just a cold call ofwho is this what's your name? They
made clear reference to the fact thatthey had been watching you and following you.

(12:20):
Yeah, they had just seen you. Yeah that's creepy. Yeah.
That stuck with me and that's whatmade that's what made that feel chilling to
me. And then of course,you know, having the news reports come
out so shortly after that, andthen talking about what he did that he
would moore I would have been hisyoungest too, if anything had happened,

(12:43):
But it wouldn't have because I wasinstantly frechilded. I didn't have that.
I didn't have any kind of likelike lonely void in my life where I
needed to follow a strange man inhis house, right, Yeah, you
know, and the guy said hepicked up I think they were they started
off older. I think they werelike, what like nineteen eighteen years old,
and then I think his last victimwas fifteen. Yeah, because he

(13:05):
was sourcing victims from young men thathe would employ for his business, so
they had to have been working perage at the very least when he started
out. Okay, yeah, yeah, And if I recall like during the
latter like the last few years wherehe was active, I'm pretty sure he
was just becoming more like, Idon't know, bold in the way that

(13:26):
he was trying to like pick upvictims. Like I think he would actually
like go to uh was like theGreyhound bus terminal and just like basically proposition
young men there. Like he wasjust looking for like runaways, you know,
people that didn't seem to have ahome. But yeah, yeah,
I mean that definitely tracks right,even if it wasn't him, it was
it was freaky. But you know, this is the thing, I mean,

(13:48):
there was no follow up after hegot arrested, right, Yeah,
some part of me thinks that ifit wasn't him, that whoever it is
I called me probably might have calledback still or maybe not. I mean,
I pretty definitively hung up on theguy. But yeah, So it's
like, as I get older,I feel like it's kind of I'm more
more inclined to say, you know, I got a call that might have

(14:11):
been John Wayne Gacy, but butI used to say it was definitely him.
But again, you know, it'sjust like the more I find out
about him and how he did that, how he committed his crimes, the
more it seems to just kind oftrack with, you know, with how
I remember the story. And youalso have to consider that if it had
been one of your peers or oneof your friends, nineteen seventy eight is

(14:33):
a long time ago. You figureat some point it would have come out,
like, oh, you remember thattime we called Paul and told him
it was a good year to start. It would have come out eventually,
most likely. Yeah, yeah,true, definitely, Granted I've been I
don't really talk to very many ofmy junior high grade school friends anymore,
But for sure, I mean Ithink that if they had, you know,

(14:56):
if they had pulled the prank,I'm sure I would have found out
about it. Yeah, and twentyminutes is more than enough time if you
live in the same town which Gaseydid to get back home after watching what
door number, you know, whathouse number you just walked into and grabbing
his copy of the White Pages andflipping to that address for the phone number,

(15:18):
or even then you probably could havecalled information and said, I need
the phone number two twenty three MapleAvenue. There was probably no concept of
privacy back then, So a phonecall like that after the creepy auto encounter,
it just seems like too many thingsline up for it to be a
coincidence in my opinion at least.Yeah, I can't. I mean,

(15:41):
it's like one of those things whereit's just like I you know, I
can't rule it out right. It'sjust too much going on, you know.
And as weird as the seventies were, and as unsupervised and strange as
being a child, you know,in that time period, you know,
because of the parents, there wasalmost no parenting happening back then. It

(16:02):
was just kind of like the firstgeneration of latch key kids. Yeah,
it was an odd thing. Imean, I'm sure, I'm sure that
there was probably a lot a lotof autonomy in earlier decades too. I
mean, you know, not notso much like you know, kids running
on the streets is you know,industrial era New York City or something like
that. But i mean, youknow, the parents during summer breaks,

(16:26):
the moms up and down the streetthat were ostensibly looking after the kids,
what they would do is they wouldget together in the street, you know,
in a screen porch or something likethat, agree all afternoon. And
the only time that they ever,you know, really like paid attention is
usually around like lunchtime or any kindof meal time, where if there was
some kind of planned activity that wewere doing, or one of the kids

(16:48):
broke their arm or something like that. But for the you know, for
the most part, it was justlike everyone would just to like get out
of the house, don't be inside, and get away from us and be
back when the street lights come on. Yeah, something like that. Right,
Yeah, you know they'd are tobe yelling the kids name from the
front porch or ringing a bell ordoing whatever. But normally, you know,

(17:10):
it's just like so we'd be climbingup under the roofs of houses and
jumping from the roof to the garageroof and then onto a tree and making
ramps out of pieces of plywood anda log or a rock or something like
that, and never good to befalling off a bikes and scraping themselves up,
you know, making tire swings thingslike that. That was definitely my

(17:30):
childhood and I was there for theadvent of razor scooters, being like,
let's see if one of us cancan do a razor scooter off of a
ramp. Bikes weren't good enough anymore. Skateboards it's been done. But let's
see if someone could pop a wheelieon a cheek on a razor scooter.
Yeah, a razor scooter made ofaluminum. Great idea. Well, like,

(17:52):
yeah, I was just saying that. I'm like twenty years old.
We had razor scooters and the Bungeeoffice in Washington nice. So yeah,
we had a couple of those.And anyway, which is funny because at
the Razor Scooter age where like everythingis like pizza roles and awesomeness, like
an office where you can have razorscooters sounds like the fantasy of that twelve

(18:18):
year old like man, wouldn't itbe great if like we could have these
like in an office while we workedand make video games. There's an awful
lot of arrested development in the videogame industry. I mean, no big
surprise there, right, Yeah,But going back to the strange phone call,
once you had made the very reasonableassumption in your mind that it was

(18:42):
Gacy who had called you, Imean it took the state quite a while
to execute him. I want tosay he was around at least fifteen years.
Yeah, after he was sentenced todeath. Was there ever any sort
of worry in the back of yourmind that you know, this guy might
get out or break out and youknow, come look for me. It's
like one of those things where it'sjust I you know, I forgot about

(19:04):
it for a really really long time. That's just it just never. I
didn't really think about it until somebodywould mention Dacy and then I'd be like,
oh, yeah, I think thatguy called me. I think I
would have been his last six Youknow, we see that a lot,
Michael, with the two previous guestswe had on the show where they've had
this intense event I won't say traumatic, but an intense event that was out

(19:29):
of the norm in their childhood,and then at just as time quickly went
on, they no longer thought aboutit. And then they always say the
same thing when we bring it upduring the interview, it's oh, you
know, come to think of it, I really didn't think about it for
a long time. It's almost like, I don't know, maybe the mind
is just kind of like filing itinto a back cabinet for its own sake,

(19:51):
not to dwell on it. Yeah, it's like any other weird memory,
right, Yeah, or any otheryou know. I mean, it's
distinctive enough that the brain worlds itaway in a place where you can easily
access it. But I think becausehe didn't actually throw me in the back
of his car or anything like that, I think I was able to pretty,
you know, pretty much say well, gee, that was that was
a scary close call, you know. And of course I have a bunch

(20:12):
of memories like that in my life, you know, almost drowning, almost
being hit by train, car accidentsI was in, you know, lots
of little near death experiences and stuffwhere I feel like, oh, I
really got away with living, youknow, and when I should have been
down a bunch of times. Beinga kid in the seventies, eighties,

(20:32):
and nineties was kind of dangerous.But I think it's interesting, like you
were saying with this is like thethird episode in a row, where you
know, the person who's had thisexperience has kind of filed it away,
And I feel like that's almost likeI've had similar instances where like something weird
happened, but I don't know,I didn't want to make a big deal
out of it because I didn't wantto be seen as like overreacting or like
being an alarmist or something like that. And I wonder if that's almost like

(20:56):
a defense mechanism for the mind,Like I don't know, like maybe you
didn't You just didn't make a bigdeal of it because in your brain you
didn't want to be seen as likehysterical or something for you know, something
that wasn't a huge deal but wasstill strange. I kind of feel like
maybe the horror of the story asit was unfolding, mm hmm, kind
of became its own thing for meto focus on. Yeah, you know,

(21:19):
we were all drawn into that thatstory. I mean, you know.
God know, Chicago had plenty rightbecause we had that. There's the
Tailan All thing. Oh yeah,the Tilan all murders yet still unsolved.
Wow. But I mean the reasonwhy we have childproof caps and seals over
everything now is is because of that, you know, the whole it changed

(21:41):
the world that this story, andit was yeah, it was a Chicago
thing. And then we had LoriDan. Not a lot of people remember
Lori Dan. She walked into uhyeah, grade school and it was a
you know, an early school shooting. They made a TV movie where Valerie
Burton Elly played She shot up asecond grade classroom and then went to a

(22:03):
house and helped some people hostage andthen eventually killed herself. Right m hm.
And apparently, according to the Internetat least, she was actually investigated
as a possible suspect in the ThailandAll murders. So it all circles back.
Yeah, yeah, well that's right, because she was She had poisoned
a bunch of a bunch of schoollunches that day. I think she had

(22:26):
put I think she puts strychnine orsomething in a bunch of milk cartons for
the babysitting poison the kids. Theydidn't die, I think, but they
got really sick. And then Ithink that she ended up back at the
house again where whether it's a hostagesituation for a few hours. And I

(22:48):
remember I was in college at thetime, and we're all kind of yes.
I don't know how, I don'tknow how we were keeping up the
date with it. I guess wewere listening to the radio or something,
because there was you know, wedin't have the internet that or anything,
so oh so much was word ofmouth back then, yeah, yeah,
or just you know, catching anafternoon edition to the newspaper or something,
m his papers in whatever. ButI mean, yeah, Chicago had definitely

(23:14):
had a share of you know,kind of national I mean, because it
was a pretty early, you know, mass shooting in the school, right.
I can't think of a lot ofcases before that, you know that
were bell Weathers for that. Therewere some dating back a few decades before
then, but they were like veryfew and far in between. Yeah,
yeah, like in the fifties.And of course now it's like a like

(23:36):
a fucking halftime tragically, it's verhar But I think Laurie Dan was like,
you know, especially shocking because itwas, you know, kind of
like who does that? Who shootskids? And I think she was using
a revolver. Yeah, she hada three fifty seven magnum Yeah, because
there are you know, and Ithink this year that's something like a four

(23:59):
over four hundred mass shootings. Twicein my life I've had a loaded and
cock gum pointed at my head.Jesus Him. The first time, my
friend Nisha, who was this kindof high energy punk rock girl, a
friend of mine from the eighties andearly nineties sis you go to Screeching Easel
shows. And we were in Winetkaat her parents' house and she said,

(24:22):
hang on, hang on here,close your eyes, close your eyes.
And I closed my eyes and shewent they could hear going down the hall
and then coming back and I heard, you know this like the hammer pulling
back in the gun and I andshe goes, okay, open your eyes,
and she was pointing this kind offancy and engraved revolver right at my
head. And because it's a revolver, I could see the you know,

(24:44):
the drum, the bullets in it, and I was like, that gun
is fully loaded, Misha, Andshe said, what wait, what do
I do? What do I do? And she didn't move the gun away
from my head. She's just pointystill pointing it out my head, going
what do I do? And Isaid, well, please take your finger
off the trigger. Reasonable request,and I said, maybe go outside point

(25:06):
it at the gun, but wellaway from you, not at the ground,
but not straight down, but justkind of at an angle, you
know, at the soil. Andthey think you're supposed to pull the hammer
all the way back, then pullthe trigger really slowly and then let the
hammer back into it like super slowand then you know, put the safety

(25:26):
arm and take all the bullets out. And she get it. Anyway.
The last time I talked to heris she said, you know, I
teach firearms safety now. She said, that incident rock me to my core
and it defines the rest of mylife and what my career was going to
go. There you go, yeah, life turns on a dime, as

(25:47):
they say, yeah yeah. Andthat's all for this week. Listeners,
be sure to tune in next weekfor more tales of the unknown, unexplained,
and unexplainable. As always, I'mJesse and I'm Michael, and this
has been Unknown Horizons. I wasshow us as they were to cross the

(26:37):
across the roads, still feeling scared, feelings turned his sci I heard the

(27:00):
most song on Russias from rushing wheresure again and they share your b Smericaus
was built almost did to the Nagasshow that comes so far. This is
a long ass just going