Ep. 5 - The Princess And The Ghost Hunter

Join Micheal and Jesse as they interview Bob Behrent, the co-founder of the groundbreaking paranormal investigation group New Jersey Research For Psychic Phenomena, who assisted with the Princess Doe murder investigation in 1982.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Tonight on Unknown Horizons, Michael andI interview Bob Barrant, who, along
with fellow paranormal investigators Steve Bauman andTed Finland, founded the group New Jersey
Research for Psychic Phenomenon in the earlynineteen eighties, becoming one of the first
ghost hunting groups to utilize modern technologyin their investigations. During the summer of

(00:24):
nineteen eighty two, Barrant and hiscrew were recruited by Lieutenant Eric Kranz of
the Blairstown Police Department to help investigatethe at that time unsolved murder of an
unidentified young woman known only to themedia as Princess Doe. In July twenty
twenty two, after forty years ofinvestigation, Princess Doe was finally identified as

(00:48):
seventeen year old Dawn Olinik, whohad disappeared from her home but had never
been reported missing. Shortly after thebreak in the case was announced, Michael
and I sat down with Bob todiscover us his work with Lieutenant Kranz and
his history as a groundbreaking paranormal investigator. Bob was kind enough to provide his
original audio recordings from the early nineteeneighties and what you are going to hear

(01:14):
will shock you so dim the lights, Grab a drink and join us as
we go in search of unknown horizons. Tonight's guest is Bob Barren. Bob
is the co founder of New JerseyResearch for Psychic Phenomenon, one of the
first paranormal investigation teams in New Jerseyhistory, and to my knowledge, one

(01:38):
of the first paranormal investigation groups toutilize electronic voice phenomenon in their investigations in
the Garden State. All the wayback in nineteen eighty two, Bob's group
was brought in to assist with theongoing at that time Princess Doe investigation,
and if you haven't seen the news, that case was finally solved after forty

(02:01):
years this past Friday. So Bob, welcome to the show. Well thanks
for inviting me on. I appreciateit. JESSI, it's a pleasure and
I definitely wanted to have you backon because we spoke at length about four
or five years ago about the casefor Weird New Jersey magazine, and since
we cover the paranormal on this show, I thought what an interesting way to

(02:23):
bring awareness to the Princess Doe casewhile also talking about, sincerely one of
the most interesting stories with ghost huntingin the modern era, because as far
as I even knew at the timethat sort of investigation, at least those
techniques were not widely being utilized,especially not in pop culture. I mean

(02:44):
even in Ghostbusters two years later,you did not see the use of infrared
technology or EVP techniques. You know, it was proton packs and traps.
But you guys were doing what isnow considered the cornerstones of investigation techniques in
modern ghost hunting. So why don'tyou walk Michael and I through how the

(03:07):
group began. Well, there's alwaysan interest in things that are not normal,
and people will if you say,oh, yeah, I believe in
ghosts, they look at you likeyou're crazy. But you know, I
had an experience when I was akid. I was very young. I
guess I was maybe six seven yearsold. We moved into my grandfather bought
a three family house. There weretenants already in place on the third floor.

(03:29):
Grandpa and grandma were going to takethe middle floor, and my mother
and dad and me were going totake the ground floor. However, there
was a tenant in the ground floor. It was a couple who had a
very old father who was living there, and he was ill. He was
very sick, and I didn't knowanything about what was going on there.
But we were actually sharing the secondfloor with my grandparents for about a year,

(03:53):
and then all of a sudden wecould move downstairs because they were moving
out because the poor old guy passedaway. So okay, we went down
there. Now you got a picturethis. This was in Irvington, which
is right next to Newark, andit was an old house and kind of
railroad fashion. You walk in thefront door and you're in the living room.

(04:14):
Next room was the dining room.Then there's like a little kind of
vestibule, and the bathroom is onthe left, and there's two bedrooms,
one to the right on an anglebackwards and one to the left on the
same side on the right, andthat the kitchen is straight ahead, and
then there was another small bedroom offto the right of the kitchen if you
wanted to use it. I wasin that room and I used to see

(04:34):
something like flashing. It was likea blink almost, but a bright blink,
and then I would start to dozeoff and I would feel someone stroking
my face, you know, likemy mother used to do, but I'd
opened my eyes and there was noone there. This happened so often that
I started sleeping upside down with myfeet on the pillows and my head underneath
the covers. I could not havesomebody touch my face. Understandable, it

(04:58):
was frightening. It wasn't until manyyears later I found out that that was
the room that the old man wasin and where he passed away. So
apparently, in my estimation, itwas weird he didn't leave, and so
that kind of sticks in the backof your mind and you start to wonder,
and then you talk to people abouthearing sounds and things happening in their
attic. And there was actually itwasn't really a murder, but there was

(05:21):
a death, and the assumption wasand there was suspicion that this was a
house in Chester, New Jersey,that the woman, who was an older
woman, fell down this whole flightof stairs and died, and there was
some suspicion within the family that herhusband pushed her down the stairs because she

(05:42):
was quite a bit older than him. He was a younger guy, and
that was the weird thing. Pusheddown the stairs. And then I don't
know what happened to him or whathappened after that, but another family bought
the house, moved in, andthey were having all kinds of things.
We're going to play the voice wewant to reach the one left the Dora.
I am directing this message to seeyour personal life. I can only

(06:05):
regret never meeting you in this life. From what I understand, you're one
deceptional woman in your time. Everyonethat has ever been acquainted with you has
said so, including your grandchildren,children and friends as well. You have
spent many years in your home,and I have done a superb job.

(06:27):
However, I am presently living hereand I am trying my hardest to make
comfortable for your grandson and my children. I have to ask you to leave,
since you no longer belong here.If you are not resting comfortably,
or if you want me to resolvematter pertaining to your death, leave me
some indication, whether it be attackingSam twice or even a ticking of a

(06:53):
clock, whichever, anything of thatnature will do. I am leaving this
device here in the window. Itwill transmit your message to me. Since
I am highly receptag please let yourselfbe known if it is not you.
I am sorry to have to stirbyou in any way, the one whose

(07:15):
voice that is, I would liketo know who you are. We did
some research, and I did someresearch on the property itself and found that
it was actually possibly an Indian burialground because there was a lot of Indian
activity there and there was you knowa lot of relics still there that would
be dug up in a garden,you know, tomahawk heads made out of
stone, et cetera. So youknow, we kind of went in there

(07:39):
and the three of us and weset up cameras. I also had a
chart recorder. They were kind ofanalog then, you know. It was
actually an ink pen and a circulardisc that was moving, you know,
according to the time, and itwould measure temperature. And there was one
room that always would get all ofa sudden cold, and apparently we were

(08:00):
there. It was in the summerand it was hot, and we went
into this room where it was supposedlygoing to get cold, and it really
didn't. But we set up thechart recorder and we kind of like went
around. I checked up in theattic to see if there was any animals
up there or anything. Like that. When we came back maybe an hour
an hour and a half later,the temperature had dropped from like seventy eight

(08:22):
degrees and it dropped down to likeforty seven degrees. It only lasted for
about five minutes, and so it'slike something is wrong because they didn't have
air conditioning in the house number one. They had some fans in the window,
but not in this room. Thisroom was completely you know, I
mean the windows were closed. Itwas kind of sealed off the room where
she had found the cold spots youknow before. And then we took a

(08:46):
tape recorder and we left it inthe hallway. We said, come on,
let's all get out of here,and we took her and her daughter
and we just took a ride toa place to get some ice cream.
The weirdest thing is you can hearthe tape recorder. You can hear us
all leave, you can hear thecars start. It was a gravel driveway.
You can hear the crunching of thegravel as we're pulling out and we're
going. We come back maybe aboutan hour and a half later, played

(09:09):
the tape and there was all kindsof noise on it as soon as we
shut the door, it sounded likesomebody picked up the recorder. There was
a sound right before the gas station. There's a little area where we could
talk. We can do that.The time is uh fifty a place,
the bing box, recorders in thewindow, the main recorders on the table.

(09:30):
We're leading the house. Now ifyou'd like to leave the message,
please feel free to do so.There we are here, which I want

(10:09):
pause design why to pick up anyof her fonds. So now this is
kind of you know, saying tome, this is more than normal.
It's paranormal. And then there wasother things. We took some photographs of
what was uh it was an oldchurch goes back to pretty much back to

(10:31):
the Civil War when it was actuallya farmhouse then and then it became a
church. And there was actually amurder committed in the house supposedly. And
this is We went to the libraryin mount Oliff. This is in mount
Olif township, and this place becamea like a stage. You know,

(10:54):
there was a local acting you knowsituation there where they were it on plays
and things like that. But everybodywho was one of the actors said this
place is haunted, and they wouldalways have a story, so you know,
based upon that, I said,wow, this is pretty cool.
And then he also we kind ofhooked up with a woman who was she

(11:18):
was really a psychic. I mean, you can tell you tell you things
that you know, you didn't evenknow about yourself until she told you,
and you go, shoot, you'reright, you know, so, I
mean she was pretty good and shewas pretty sensitive. Eric Krantz, who
was the policeman, the detective incharge of the investigation for Princess Do at

(11:39):
the time, he was a littleskeptical in the beginning, but when she
talked to him, he said,I'm not so skeptical anymore. And he
would actually join us in our aretrying to communicate, you know, with
recordings, and you know, hewould add questions, you know, and

(12:01):
we would then play the tapes backand see if we had any kind of
answers. But sometimes what you wouldget is a pop, I mean a
loud pop, not like a gun, but you know, just just a
you know, you know, aloud one on the tape, how louder
than you know, the background,you know, hissing and cars going by,
you know, several hundred yards away, so you know, it was

(12:26):
really cool. But when the onequestion that was asked, and actually I
asked the question, I said,you're having issues and I'm talking to Princess
Stou's spirit if it's If that's whatit is, said, you know,
we're trying to help you, youknow, if you're if you're trapped here
and you're you're not free, youknow, just let us know so.

(12:48):
And then that didn't work. Andthen there's a theory that some people had
where there's always in a cemetery there'sa guardian. Yeah, the guardian is
usually the first buried and the firstone buried in the cemetery, and he
is kind of like grounded there forforever. And I approached and said,

(13:13):
let me, let me try addressingthe guardian. So I started doing that
and I said, you know,help us, please help us. And
then the recording is going and youcan hear it sounded like the background noise
was getting louder, and I gotthis thing that just sent chills up my
spine. It said no in likea gravelly whisper. So he heared the
daylights out of it. Yeah,I've heard this recording. It's a deep,

(13:37):
guttural voice and we'll play this forthe listeners and if you and I
have to warn you, it isvery shocking. If you're easily spooked,
you're definitely going to want to skipahead a little bit. On the episode,
the guardian of this hallied Brown.Your cemetery was desecrating inside this person.
I killed this girl. It's veryunholy thing. Help us in some

(13:58):
way, help this. When yousent me that recording, you know,
there are a lot of people outthere and they're sincere, but they'll say,
oh, well, while I wason an investigation, or I was
recording something completely different in my house. They'll say, well, there's a
voice on there, and you listenand it's you know, static, or

(14:20):
it could be a chair moving,it could be anything. But there is
no mistaking what is on this recording. It is one hundred percent a low
male voice saying no, very firmand very very eerie, and it's clear
as day. No noise removal technologyor filters are needed to hear it.

(14:41):
It is as if the source ofthis voice was standing directly above the tape
recorder's microphone and says it right intoit. And of course, you know
the humans don't hear anything at thetime. It's never really happened to me.
But they say, you could havea recorder that's not recording, it
will pick up various sounds like you'dbuy a brand new tape. Put it

(15:03):
in there, don't turn it on, leave it somewhere, you know where
it supposedly voices appear, and you'llget voices on it. Now, that's
never happened to me. It's onlyever happened weird sounds when we were actually
recording, so you know, butit was just it was just so spooky.
I said, you know what,there's got to be something to this.

(15:24):
And then you know, we wouldsee these these streaks of light.
The magazine actually published that photo thatI took, and you could see these
like curves of light. Now,this was late in the season. This
was like in round mid November,and it was a cold night. There's
no fireflies, lightning bugs at thattime of the year, and these things

(15:48):
are like streaks. And there wasanother story which actually it was supposedly a
true story that they made a movieout of it, and that was where
this woman, you know, wasconstantly plagued in her house by something,
so she moved and the thing followedher and one of the things that she
would see in the dark was theselittle curved things of light. The other
thing is is that because it wasbecoming popular and so were we for our

(16:11):
investigations, that what we did wasthere was in mont Olive township they have
you know, the adult night schools, you know, for various things.
He could be for making pottery orwhat have you. So Teddy and I
decided we're going to apply and doa thing called Ghostbusters. And this is
your co investigator, Ted Finland.Correct, that is correct, Yeah,

(16:33):
that's right. Now Steve wasn't involvedwith that, but Ted and I,
you know, put together a programfor several evenings. You know, it
was like, you know, oncea week for a couple of weeks,
a few weeks. And what wedid was on the last week, well
the next to the last week,we said, next week is the last
week. We're going on a roadtrip. Now we're going to go up
to the cemetery. We lobby dougOn. But there were people there and

(16:55):
they were shooting photographs of the flashesthat were around the area of where the
body was found. You know,her body was found now right next to
the where the body was found isa little building. It's actually an outhouse.
And the attendant you know for thecemetery who discovered the body, you
know, he would never go inthat that place because he said the spiders

(17:18):
were too big in there, soyou know, but I mean it was
an outhouse and right next to it, behind it was a very steep ravine
went down to a little creek andthat's you know, where they threw her
body or the guy through her body. So but I mean the people were
actually surprised that they actually witnessed somethings there, which is kind of cool.

(17:38):
Yeah. I wanted to kind ofgo back to something you were talking
about a little bit ago. Sowhen you started doing all of these,
you know, the paranormal researching andstuff, what was your process for kind
of like, I don't know,researching the properties that you would look at
and stuff like that. Yes,because this is a pre internet age,
mind you was this the late seventies, early eighties around this time period,

(18:00):
very early eighties, you know,maybe nineteen eighty and so, maybe nineteen
seventy nine. But I mean ifyou go to small town libraries, who
in towns in New Jersey, especiallyup in this area, a lot of
them have been around for hundreds ofyears and there's a lot of historical markers.
I'm in Roxbury Township right now andthere's a road called Emmons Road and

(18:22):
there's there's some houses on it thathave historical markers and they're still being you
know, occupied by people who purchasedthe houses over the years, and you
know, some of them will sellthe house, but you know, they're
old stone houses. And in fact, this one woman that I knew,
she was on a committee with mein town and you know, I asked

(18:44):
her, I said, is yourhouse haunted? She goes, no,
No, although we did have afew weird things happened in the past.
I said, like what she goes, now, I don't want to talk
about it. So all right,fine, I'm not going to force you,
you know, but I mean that'swhat kind of dragged us into it.
And the way we investigated is ifyou go to that town's library,
there's a lot of historical stuff inthere about that town. The one about

(19:07):
where the church which was converted overto a theater group. That one was
very interesting because supposedly I was takinginfrared pictures and what I used to do
is set up two cameras, onewith just infrared film. Now this is
film. This is not anything storedon a card or a tape or anything
like that. This is regular film. Has to be processed. And I

(19:29):
would take a second camera and I'dset them both up the same and I
would set it for a time exposurebecause we're shooting in the dark basically,
and the infrared actually picks up essencesof variations in temperature. But there's still
pictures. There's no no video,no movement, nothing like that. And
you can't just snap, snap,snap, because, like I said,
you have the lens open for fiveeight seven seconds something like that, and

(19:53):
once you get the neck of that, it's pretty good because you'll get a
picture. And if you do thatwith stand film, which would be an
ASA one hundred regular color film,normal color film, slides okay, and
I would get the slide version alsofor the infrared, and infrared was it
made everything look kind of red.But we took pictures of the side of

(20:15):
the church and there was a guystanding in the window, and we took
pictures of the backyard and there wasa tree you could see it looked exactly
like a woman sitting on the branchholding a small child on her lap,
and it looked like she had abackpack baby behind her, you know,
and it was so weird. Butwhen you did the historical research, there

(20:37):
were two renegades who were from theSouth during the Civil War, and the
owner of the house was away.He had to go down to this little
brook and get water because you know, they didn't have a well or piped
in water. They had to justyou know, bring buckets of it up.
In the meantime, the wife andthe children were in the house and
these renegades came in and apparently theykilled her, set the house on fire

(21:03):
and burned everything. Yeah, andI don't know what they did to her
other than killing her. But andjust to find that history after you've seen
this picture, Look there's a womanwith two kids sitting in the tree,
and you know, it takes alittle looking and go, holy crap,
yeah, there it is. Soand that's where they converted that to a

(21:23):
church, and then the church convertedit to a larger church somewhere else,
and it became you know, atheater group who bought the building and they
claimed that it was haunted. SoTeddy and I went there and kind of
did a little dissertation on it.We were on the stage and they were
sitting in the audience asking questions,and we were asking them questions, and

(21:47):
all of a sudden, this smokything it looked almost like a human shape,
but not really, but it waslike a mist just kind of went
between Teddy and I were at oppositeends of the stage and this thing just
kind of like came up from wherethe orchestra pit would be and just drifted
back to the back curtain and tothe left behind me, and I wasn't

(22:11):
really paying attention to it. Idid see something out of the corner of
my eye, but then everybody ispointing and going, oh look, and
it was chaos, so you know, so it's like, my god,
you know this is this is prettycool. You know, there is something
to this. But by the sametoken, most of what we investigated was
just explainable. It was just,you know, something like somebody had this

(22:36):
tapping all the time. And asit turned out, it was actually a
bad wire in the wall that wasactually arcing. Oh yeah, which is
good because I was there and Iheard this thing. I said, wait
a minute, that sounds like anelectrical or because electronics was my career.
Yeah, it sounds like a taser. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway,
that probably saved them a fire andburn down the house and whatnot. Yeah,

(23:02):
thank goodness, Yeah, thank godthey were superstitious or you know,
open to the possibility of the paranormal. If they had just wrote it off
as, oh, it's a mousein the wall, yeah, god knows
what could have happened. Yeah.Yeah, Well, i's can make a
lot of noise too, because theycan chew and when they're chewing on a
beam or something like that, youknow, because the rodents and rodents have
to keep their teeth from growing andgrowing, so they chew on things to

(23:26):
cut them down and grind them down. And I've had them here where there's
there's a mouse up in the atticwakes me up at the night because it
kind of Oh, wood is aconductor of sound, you know, it's
it's you chew it or you sawit at the other end. There's a
vibration as well, and you canhear that, so you know, that's
kind of spooky. But the PrincessDoe case was pretty amazing. In fact,

(23:52):
I had I had so many ideasabout it. I actually wrote a
book. It's a fiction novel,but it is based on the investigations that
were involved and that we did withthe Princess Dothing. And Eric Krantz is
in the book as a different character, you know, but you know it's

(24:14):
his name in the book was ErnieCappella. And the cemetery became Maple Ridge.
You know, it's not not anythingto do with Blairstown, so it's
Maple Ridge. And you know,the book. The book didn't sell very
well because it wasn't published right.And not only that, what they did

(24:37):
was the editor the thing really screwedit up. He didn't he didn't publish
the edited final at contact. Sothere's some you know, like words that
you know have have a letter missingor you know, a word missing somewhere
here and there, and he didn'tcatch it. So anyway, but it

(24:57):
was a good story. I gota lot of compliments on it, but
didn't make any money, that's forsure. Well, there's not a lot
of money to be made in writingunfortunately anymore, unless you're one of the
John Grishams or Stephen King's of theworld. But going back to Detective Krantz,
had he approached your group, orhow did the introduction to this case

(25:18):
come about. Was it something youhad read in the newspaper and said that
would be a good location for aninvestigation or was there an invitation walk us
through that. Yeah, well,that whole thing was awful, and the
weirdest part about it was and theonly reason, you know, myself,
Teddy and Steve were involved was thefact that Charlie was Ted's brother in law

(25:41):
and he was telling him the storyabout it, you know, and actually
had some videos of the crime sceneand Teddy saw those as well. And
so there was other people reporting strangestuff at cemetery, which is not unusual.
You know, there is strange stuffthat happens at cemetery sometimes and you
just don't know what it is.But as you well know, I was

(26:03):
kind of like, you know,the one that always said, well let
me see if I can debunk this. Yeah, and then, like like
I had said before, if youfind, you know, droppings of squirrels
and raccoons and that sort of nature, you've got to kind of be an
expert on that kind of identification.Yeah. But I mean, you know,
well you can look it up onwell, not online back then,

(26:23):
but now you can, and youknow then you know it's not Captain Howdy
and your addict, it's Rocky Raccoonup there or Roger Ratt you know,
something like that. So, butI mean that's too. I wish I
had some of the electronic equipment backthen what they have today. Oh yeah,
and you know, I don't evenknow if electronic equipment is bogus or

(26:45):
what. But you know, whenyou watch some of these paranormal you know,
type of things on TV, youknow, it'll signal that there's some
sort of disturbance, which, yeah, electromagnetic disturbances you know, can be
created by you know, spirits,and so people believe. I think it's
it's quite possible because I always said, from the scientific side, you know,

(27:07):
if energy cannot be created nor destroyed, it can only change its form.
So it's like, for example,you've got you know, water running
through a turbine creating electricity. Okay, so the water is speed and the
electricity is a whole different thing thatit's created when you first stop breathing and
your heart stops pumping, and yourheart is based on electromagnetic signals, so

(27:30):
is the brain does that stop immediatelyor does it go on for a day,
a week, an hour, aminute, you know what? Who
knows? And that's what, youknow, we created, you know,
this investigation team, you know,head, me and Steve, And that's
why we kind of went in andchecked, you know, because it was

(27:52):
supposed to be supposed to be somethinggoing on in the cemetery, so you
know, we went over there.It was kind of embarrassing, you know,
to go into the station say hey, yeah, we're going over to
the cemetery where that girl was killed. What are you going there for?
Well, we're kind of you know, paranormal researchers. Oh yeah, okay,
sure, you know, kind ofraised her go ahead. And then

(28:15):
of course Charlie showed up that firstnight and he was given us a little
more facts and whatnot. Charlie,which is Teddy's brother in law, was
he's on the Blairstown Police Force,and he told Teddy all about it,
who told Steve and I all aboutit, and and they had he had
mentioned that there were some weird thingshappening there. So okay, you know,

(28:40):
that got us, got us interested, and so we decided to one
night take a drive up there.So the three of us got in my
car, I drove up there.I drove right to the police station and
you know, there was only somegall there who was I guess, just
monitoring the desk at the point.She was on night shift. And when

(29:02):
when we said we wanted we're goingto the cemetery and what are you doing
there? Well, we're ghost hunters, you know, we're psychic investigators,
and so she just laughed and yeah, go ahead. But I guess she
told Charlie about it to go checkus out. And Charlie was on duty
that night. So he pulls upin the police car and I go,
oh, here we go. Butno, it was I had never met

(29:25):
him prior to that night. Andlong story short, eventually he introduced us
to Eric Krantz told him about someof the things that we were getting on
tape and on film, and Eriche tried everything and he couldn't find anything
to figure out, you know,who this was, who could have possibly

(29:45):
killed them, And he had hehad suspects in mine who were a little
sketchy that lived in the town,but you know, there was no identification
to this poor girl. And shewas just you know, battered and beaten
to death and and realistically, shewas all the way from Long Island,
you know, so how in theheck could you find any clues on that.

(30:07):
He thought it might have been anoverland trucker that may be picked up
a girl, you know, mayberaped her, abused her and killed her
and then you know, pulled offand jumped her in the cemetery. So
but he wasn't sure, and itwas it was very tough for him,
and I know it was kind ofgetting to him because I'm sure you know,
the police chief was on his backall the time, you know,

(30:30):
bugging him about that. You couldsee he was like a nervous trick.
But the one night we came back, we were Eric was with us,
and he was asking some of thequestions again, you know, and trying
to get you know, an EVPto see if somebody could just point something
in a direction. And we cameback and it was so weird because Eric

(30:55):
was in the police car with Ithink it was with Teddy, Yeah,
I think it was with ted andit was just Steve and I. We
drove back to the police station becausewe were going to listen to the tape
there. Well, the weird thingwas we got to the police station first,
and then I got two. Threeminutes later, the police car pulled

(31:15):
up, you know, with Ericand Teddy in it, and both Steve
and I went, did you seethat? We said it almost at the
same time, And it looked likea white smoky streak shot up through the
roof of the car and up tothe sky. It was like just a
big smoky line and it was onlyfor like a couple of seconds and it

(31:36):
was gone. So it was soweird. So, okay, we go
in. We're listening to the tape, and you know, we didn't hear
anything specific, but Steve looks downat his feet. Now, one of
the things was is her body hadbeen there hot summer. It was a
really hot, hot summer and itwas there for a while, and it

(31:56):
was full of maggots. And sobecause of that, who was really Steve
strange? Because Steve looks he's sittingon a desk, his feet are dangling,
not touching the floor. He looksdown at his shoes and both of
his feet and sneakers had maggots onit. Wow, I'm saying to myself,

(32:16):
oh, these smokes. And Ipointed it out, Steve, look
at your feet well, he panicked. He just went nuts. He just
jumped off of the things. He'sstamping his feet and stamping, you know,
the things are falling off and he'ssquashing him on the floor. So
what do we do. There wasa carpeted hallway to get to the office
that we went to the conference roomor interrogation room, I'm not sure what

(32:39):
it was, but anyway, wewalked down and we were looking for maggots
on the carpet. Nothing. Isaid, Steve, go check the car,
you know, And so we goout there and we look at my
car and got a flashlight. Therewas no maggots in the car. So
unless he was standing on a deadbird or dead mouse or something, these

(33:00):
maggots crawled up on his foot,which I don't know why they would do
that. Well they might, butbut I mean, after that, Eric
said, oh my god, youknow, he was like nuts. He
said, it's crazy, you know, it's just insane. Were the maggots
that fell off of his shoes?Were they there in the police station when
he went back inside after checking outside, Well, by stomping his feet,

(33:22):
he got him off and then hestopped him. So there were just little
wet spots there, but yeah,there was wet spots, but you couldn't
pick him up. And then youlook at the bottom of his shoes.
And by the time he got backbecause he was walking on carpeting in that
hallway. Time we got back therewalking at twice, there was nothing on
his shoes anymore on the bottoms.But I just don't know, you know,

(33:45):
Ted and I started to write somethingtogether and the title was starting to
be we don't know yet, soyou know, it's still questionable. Is
it your imagination or is it reallyfact? But there's so much of this

(34:06):
that happens that people have documented.That new TV show Paranormal Caught on Camera,
Oh yeah, yeah, that's agreat show. I mean there's some
weird stuff there, featuring my bossesat Weird New Jersey, Mark Moriana,
Mark Skerman. Yeah, they commenton all of those things, and they
have other people that you know,do the commentary on that as well.
But yeah, I like that showbecause it's all over the world. You

(34:27):
know, it's not just the localstuff. It's all over the world.
But yeah, we're in New Jersey. Is pretty cool. They come up
with some pretty interesting things that havehappened here. And are happening and then
they publish it. That's pretty cool. There definitely doesn't seem to be a
shortage of weird and interesting things towrite about. We're going on thirty years
of the magazine now, and youknow, there's always a backlog. There's

(34:50):
always a stack of stuff that didn'tfit into the issue. You know,
the letters never stopped coming in.Yeah, I know that's a great magazine
and there's some very interesting things init, very so. And I guess
you wrote most of the article forthe number fifty magazine yep, the fiftieth
issue, And that was a veryinteresting experience because that just was going to

(35:15):
be, I guess, a generaloverview of the case because I had started
interviewing Detective Lieutenant Kranz and Steven Spears, who took over the case after Kranz
retired for a book that I waswriting about the case at the time.
And I can't remember if it wasan anniversary that was coming up or I

(35:37):
just really wanted to write an articlebecause there wasn't a lot of correct information
that was out there. You know, you would have little pieces in the
newspaper every time the anniversary rolled around, and you'd see a mention here and
there on a website. But afterI interviewed Krans and Spears, I found
out that a lot of these thingsthat people were writing about weren't exactly true,

(36:00):
or they were mistaken or exaggerated.So I said, well, let
me write a really nice long formarticle for Weird New Jersey on this case
so people can use it as areference point, and you know, maybe
it'll help shake things loose, maybesomeone will recognize something. And then in
the middle of researching it, goingthrough a newspaper archive, I found out

(36:22):
about you and Ted Finlan and SteveBowman and the work you guys were doing
back then, and I was like, wow, this is such an interesting
and wild dynamic that you know,that sort of thing came about in maybe
the nineteen nineties, but even thenthat was mostly just you would hear about
detectives occasionally consulting a psychic. Thiswas a full fledged paranormal investigation group.

(36:47):
Again, because Kranz, he wouldn'tturn away any idea to solve this case.
He was hell bent on solving it. He would try anything. So
once I read about you guys andthe work you did, I said,
well, definitely this has to bepart of the article, and I've got
to interview these guys. So yeah, I get it's just a wild part

(37:08):
of the story. You really don'thear about things like that that often.
But let me hand this over toMichael. Michael, did you have any
questions going back to the princess docase? Yeah, I was going to
ask about the psychic that you wereattached to. Well, she was an
older woman. She was this isgoing back into like eighty three. She's

(37:30):
probably close to sixty, you knowthen, So I don't I lost touch
with her. But she was Shewas just good. I mean, you
know, it was she did somestrange stuff, but she would always come
up with the correct answers. Andone of these things where she would say
something and you would say, howthe heck could she possibly know that?

(37:52):
I mean, if you just meetsomebody and she knows nothing about you,
you know, and you haven't hadany conversations with her, and all of
a sudden she tells you all aboutyourself. It's like, my god.
You know, she must have somesort of talent. But she would be
able to feel certain things. Now, whether she was correct or not,

(38:15):
I don't know, but I doknow that there were times when she would
say, like, for example,I talked about the family whose house was
they had bought this house and didn'treally know that there was a suspicion that
the husband had pushed her wife down, his wife down the stairs and killed

(38:37):
her. And you know so,but she came with us to one of
the sessions at that house. Andthis was even before I was able to
find in the records from that housethat that thing happened with that woman dying
there falling down the stairs. Andshe said, yes, somebody died.

(38:59):
A woman died in his house andshe was pushed down the stairs. She
didn't say she fell down the stairs. She said she was pushed down the
stairs. Now it didn't say thatin the reports, but it said that
the husband was suspected of pushing her. So, you know, I don't
know what there are reasons were.It didn't go into details as to you
know what, Maybe the investigator wastold by somebody else, Maybe they bought

(39:21):
all the time. I don't know, but that's that's one thing that you
know, gave her some credibility tome. And apparently Krans also had some
credibility because she was talking about hewas thinking about truckers, you know,
like wall truckers, you know,picking up a girl and killing her and

(39:42):
bringing her to dropping her there.And she said something in front of Eric,
she said something about truckers. What'swhat's this with truckers? And you
know, that's what kind of convincedEric that, you know, this woman
may be able to help him.So but as it turned out, forty

(40:02):
years later, it finally got solved, but no thanks to us back then.
Well the interesting thing too, becauseEric had mentioned her when I interviewed
him for the book as well.I believe her name was Beatrice Palombo.
Yes, and he had said,correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not
sure if you Ted and Steve werein the vehicle when this happened. But

(40:24):
he had said that you guys weredriving either back from the cemetery or to
the cemetery, and out of nowhereshe just went, what's down that road?
That was one of the suspects.I remember that, Yeah, And
he had told no one, Hetold me, now, this guy was
my number two suspect. And hehad been a suspect because someone had called

(40:45):
the police and said, hey,there's a guy just standing around loitering in
front of Princess Do's gravestone. Sohe raced over there as quick as he
could, and the guy introduced himselfand said that he was a pastor with
some and he was just there payinghis respects. But Kranz said that it
immediately arose suspicion with him when hewalked away from the grave without saying a

(41:08):
prayer. So Kranz began looking intothis guy and found out that being a
pastor was not his main gig.He was a long haul trucker. So
he said, I kept that information, you know, close to the chest.
I really definitely wasn't out in thepublic, and he said, I
wasn't really talking to too many peoplein the police department either. So while

(41:30):
he was quietly looking into this guy, out of nowhere, Beatrice the psychic,
as you guys are passing the road, that this trucker his name was
Robert Pastor Bob. He called himand he told me, out of nowhere,
we're passing Pastor Bob's road. AndBeatrice goes, what's down there?
And he said, oh, Idon't know what. Why And she goes,

(41:50):
oh, I've just got a veryvery negative feeling about something is on
that road, and he told mehe goes. That sent a shiver up
my spine because there was no wayin how she could have known that I
was looking into a guy on thatroad for killing princess. Do we now
know, of course, that hewas not the one that was responsible,
But if you believe in psychic phenomena, this lady had somehow picked up on

(42:15):
that vibe or whatever you want tocall it in Kranz's mind. So that
was a very interesting part of thatstory. Wow, well I remember that,
And one thing that you didn't mention. I also remember b Plumbo mentioned
something to the effect about she sawmachinery, but as it turned out as
a trucker, that's usually what hecarried, some sort of you know,

(42:36):
factory manufacturing machinery, you know,large heavy machineries. So yeah, I
think that was one of the othertriggers. But I also when Eric saw
the maggots and when he heard theno you know it was, it was
convinced. You know. I also, and I don't know if this is
so or not, but I heardthat when he retired the police force,

(42:58):
he actually joined a an organization calledchildfind because you know, he had if
you did a computer print out,he had pages and pages, thousands and
thousands of names. But the thingis is if that girl who was murdered
found murdered they said at the time, they said she was somewhere between sixteen
and twenty, So if she waseighteen, she was now independent and she

(43:21):
would go off of that list.So he couldn't find anything to help that
scenario because she was probably over eighteen, but she wasn't and nobody reported or
missing back at that time, soshe wouldn't have been on that list.
So that was a shame. Yeah, So it wasn't for lack of trying
that she was not identified for fortyyears. And the type of identification that

(43:45):
they used. The DNA technology isso much more advanced than it was even
five years ago, let alone twentyfive years ago. I mean they managed
to pull I forget the number,but a significant amount of DNA information from
the root of a tooth. Andthis is a tooth from a skull that

(44:07):
was dried out and preserved back innineteen eighty two. Yeah, it was
actually boiled out. Yeah, andthe skin comes off and then they can,
you know, put paths on itand create an image. Yeah,
and Frank Bender had done that firstforensic sculpture of Princess Do and about a
decade later Frank got, I guessit was headline news. I know he

(44:29):
was on television. It was ahuge part of this story. He had
created a forensic bust of John List, who was still on the run at
the time, the family annihilator,who had killed his mother, wife,
and three children in Westfield, NewJersey, all the way back in November
nineteen seventy one. And the bustthat Frank Bender created of John List was

(44:52):
accurate all the way down to thetype of frames on his eyeglasses. And
when John Walsh showed that bust onAmerica's Most Wanted, his next door neighbor
in Virginia where he had fled torecognized him immediately and called in the tip
that led to his arrest. Soagain, the Princess Doe story, which

(45:15):
is thankfully now closed after nearly halfa century, had all of these interesting
detours. For all these years,by Kranz's account, at least thirty missing
kid cases were solved purely through aprocess of elimination of well, is this
person Princess Doe? And then whenthe authorities would look into it, they

(45:36):
would discover what had truly happened tothem. So you have that, you
have the connections with your organization,and then the Frank Bender connection. So
in that forty years, there isjust no shortage of compelling things. And
while it's tragic that it took solong, it is really heartwarming to know
that children were reunited with their parentsthanks to cops trying to see if they

(46:00):
were this missing person. And so, yeah, I mean again, no
shortage of interesting detours in that case. Yeah, that's for sure. Well,
recently, I haven't had much experienceswith any kind of paranormal stuff,
although as I get older, Ikind of believe somebody keeps stealing my stuff
because I can't find it, butI do find it eventually. Yeah,

(46:23):
right where I left it? Ohyeah, I left it there. You
know why did I leave it there? Yeah? But before you find it's
always the convenient poltergeist that did it. Yeah yeah, yeah, let him
defend himself. I don't want tobe responsible. I just want to ask,
with your involvement in the Princess Doestory, is there like one thing

(46:43):
in particular that sticks with you?Well, not really some of the things
that I've already mentioned. Well,I'll never forget. I'll never forget that
spooky no And it's just so weirdbecause there was some traffic out on the
road that was at ninety four Ithink it is, yep, and there's

(47:04):
some trucks and stuff going by,and the noise started to get loud.
And that's what I meant when Isaid the volume seemed to increase because of
the noise in the background. Andthen as it passed, you can tell
that it passed, you know,the area, because the sound was now
declining from that truck. You know, that no came up and it was,
oh my god, it just senta chill up my spine. But

(47:27):
because you know, I would wouldhave loved to have heard nothing, and
you know, said, well,I that this stuff doesn't work. It's
all bull, you know, butit does work. And there's weird stuff
that's happened on other tape recordings andother sessions. So you know, we
used to get calls all the time, and I would check it out first
because I didn't want to waste ourtime or their time, So you know,

(47:51):
I would you know, check,well, what exactly, you know,
and you know, if it waslike a room getting cold, I
would just set up my temperature recorderand that would actually give me a chart.
It was a circular chart. Itshowed the time, it showed the
temperature on the chart, and ithad a red ink pen in it.
And as it is slowly rotating,you know, for a click every minute,

(48:13):
you could see where the temperature wasgradually rising or not at all,
or it might you know, raizor drop a degree or two or three.
That's nothing. That's normal. Youknow, somebody walks by and a
breeze goes by, or you know, it's just getting cooler at it because
it's nighttime, or warmer because it'syou know, not nighttime. But usually
people didn't complain about the rooms gettingwarmer. You know, it was getting

(48:37):
cold for no reason was the questionablething. And I understand that. But
you know a lot of that waskind of you know, bogus, you
know, it just we couldn't catchanything on it. There was one house
though, that when I went backinto the history of the thing, it
was actually an Indian reservation type ofthing. They had also found during excavation
for homes on that area. Theyfound bones there so it could also have

(49:00):
been part of the burial ground.And you certainly don't want to build houses
on any kind of former burial groundif the bodies are not moved. No,
that's such a common thing. It'sbecome a movie trope almost. That's
it's definitely not advisable. Yeah,but I mean I don't know if that
if that means anything really, ifthat's why things get haunted, but it's

(49:23):
certainly disrespectful. Oh of course.So before we go, I wanted to
ask you just one more question.You know, you started, you know,
with your friends researching these psychic phenomena, you know, decades before ghost
hunters and ghost adventures were a thing. I just wanted to ask, why
did you guys start using tapes whenyou were recording the EVP sessions? Was

(49:45):
there like an inspiration for that?No, it was it was just that,
you know, I came out ofthe electronics world. I before I
retired, I spent fifty years inelectronics. I've seen resistors and transition and
diodes. Now, transistors and diodesare now smaller than specks of dust,
and there's thousands of them on somethingthat's smaller than your pinky nail. And

(50:08):
back then there was a lot ofelectronics, and tape recordings is one of
them. You had these compact youknow, little tapes, not the tiny
ones, but you know, therewere little panasonic recorders and whatnot. There
were no discs back then, youknow, there was nothing else. But
you know, being in electronics,I had access to some test equipment.

(50:29):
The chart recorder, for example,which there was actually a paper disc or
kind of cardboard disc, you know, which you could actually file it and
save it, you know, forthis is what happens the temperature on this
date such and such, you know, such times it rose, it closed,
it went up or down whatever.And they were using them also primarily

(50:50):
in refrigeration trucks because you know,they wanted to maintain the proof that you
know, the truck itself didn't failwith it's cooling and it was you know,
you had bad fruit or vegetables bythe time he got there. He
wanted to prove that, you know, this is it was refrigerated the whole
time. It must have been badwhen it was put in. So it's
not my fault, I'm not.Just the trucker was protecting himself on that

(51:13):
or the trucking company. But thatwas it. You know, we just
kind of got interested in it.I mean, it's just like you know,
you hear something, you've seen themovies, and you know it's like,
that's that's that's not possible. ButI read a couple of books,
you know that when I saw themovie, I said, there's no way
they can do what they said inthe book. And the one with Linda

(51:36):
Blair, I forget the name ofit, but oh the Exorcist. Exorcist,
Yeah, I said, there's noway they could do that. They're
not going to make her head spinaround. She's not going to be puking
up pea soup or whatever it is. But they did it, and they
did it very well. And Iremember you'd mentioned when we spoke for the
Weird New Jersey piece that some ofthe ideas for EVP investigations had come from

(52:00):
an interesting character, a Reverend EarlHoskins, who was at the Church of
the Mystic Light. Could you talkabout meeting this guy, because that was
a very interesting encounter you had toldme about. Yeah, him and his
wife had started doing some of thisstuff too, and he was talking about
things that didn't exist electronic devices I'mtalking about. At that time, he

(52:24):
would call them mag generators, andthat was a piece of equipment that would
detect electromagnetic fields like an EMF detector. Yeah, but I mean that was
something that was not really available tothe public. No, not at all,
not then. Yeah, and therewere thousands of dollars because it was
all new technology, you know,back in the late seventies and eighties.

(52:45):
Oh yeah, Now you can justget one for sixteen dollars on Amazon Prime
and it's at your door in twodays. But back then, no way.
Yeah, exactly. So I doremember if they had some sort of
a session at the building itself,at Church of the Mystic l Like,
have you ever seen that place?Oh, I've been there. About a
year after I spoke with you,some friends of mine we went on a

(53:06):
little road trip where we did someghost hunting in a few famously haunted locations
in New Jersey. We didn't goto Blairstown, but we went to places
like the Watch On Reservation, youknow, Suicide Tower, that sort of
thing. And because you had toldme this story about this strange church,
well, we said we've got todrive up to Flanders and see this place

(53:27):
with our own eyes, because Idid check the weird New Jersey archives and
an article had been done maybe twoor three years before. We're talked about
how it's abandoned. Now, itwasn't like a spooky article in the sense
of the things that you told me. It was just one of these,
Hey, check out this cool oldabandoned church in Flanders. So when I
realized, okay, well it's stillstanding and no one's there, that would

(53:51):
be a perfect place. And itwas very strange. I'll let you describe
in a minute what you saw whenyou went there back in the eighties.
But the time I went there,the things you had described on the floor
were gone. But we did godown into the basement, which was almost
like a half kitchen, half library, half living area. There were a

(54:12):
couple couches, a television, therewere sinks and kitchen equipment for I guess
cooking for events that the church wouldhold. But there was also and I
don't know if you went down thereand saw this during your time there,
there was a very large library.I'm talking wall to wall bookcases, and
they were not filled with religious texts. It was almost like what you would

(54:36):
expect to see in the offices ofWeird New Jersey. It was all about
the metaphysical, about ghosts, cryptozoology. There was a copy of Project Blue
Book in this library, you know, the government files on UFO sightings.
So it was very interesting to seethose types of items in the basement of
what was otherwise a rather ordinary liking church. But Bob, talk to

(55:01):
us about what you saw at thisplace when you went there to speak with
Reverend Hoskins for the first time.Well, when I went there, I
didn't get past that first entrance room. Oh wow, you had that circle
with the star on the floor andthe pentagram. Yeah, yeah, the
pentagram on the floor, And Isaid, this is not a religious church

(55:24):
unless you're on the negative side ofsome religion, you know, like the
evil worship and whatnot. So Ididn't see any of that. But he
was explaining to me what other peopleare doing. What is that couple who's
been doing it for decades of theWarrens. Yeah, the Warrens out in
the Midwest, and they've had somepretty bad experiences and they kind of wanted

(55:44):
to get out of that. BecauseI saw their their life story that was
pretty good. But he talked abouta lot of stuff that they did and
how they did it, and soyou know that was kind of interesting.
But then he was, you know, talking about some other things about like
I mentioned, you know, beable to pick up you know, with
a wristwatch or a little handheld devicewhere you could tell as a ghost there

(56:06):
because the electrom at magnetic field changed. And it's like, come on,
you know you're not going to getme to get me to go spend that
kind of money. I mean,tape recorders were expensive enough back then.
A good sony pressman or even awalkman could be upwards of fifty two one
hundred dollars back in the early eighties. That was that was a lot of

(56:27):
scratch back then. Oh yeah,sure, sure, well I had I
had a regular penisonic tape recorder becauseI used to use it sometimes for interviews
at my office, you know,hiring a salesperson or something like that.
And you know I wouldn't run atape background just so they didn't have to
take paper notes, you know.Yeah, And then I could you know,
go through it and then listen totheir inflections in the voice, et

(56:49):
cetera. I could tell sometimes ifthey're aligned to me or not. But
everybody lies, you know, ofcourse. Yeah, but I mean,
you know, so I had anice Panasonic that was pretty sensitive. You
can use the remote mic, butI never used the remote mic because I
didn't trust him. The built inmics were good enough, and for whatever
reason they did work. You know, we got some some weird things and

(57:12):
weird sounds in there. Sometimes youwould get sounded like somebody crying, but
way in the background. And ifyou were in a cemetery, you know,
certainly at night, you know,you of course you do all this
stuff at night. You don't goon bright sunny daylight, you know,
because other people would go in atnight. You know, people stay out
of cemeteries. So that's just likeone time, you know, the member

(57:35):
the legend of the hooker Man.Oh yeah, the Hookerman lights on the
railroad track. Well those tracks aregone and it's now a hiking path,
so it's called the Columbia Trail.But yeah, we Teddy and I and
my wife was with us to Maryand Steve were in the car and we
were looking for the hooker Man.Sure enough, we pulled up a side

(57:57):
road and we looked down the tracksand we saw this white light, and
we determined it wasn't a car becauseit was just a single white light.
It wasn't a bright headlight or anything, and it would have been like in
the middle of the tracks. Butmy research showed that that happens around the
world, and it usually happens wherethere's a lot of iron in the soil
or railroad tracks and quartz. Huh. And it's a visual electrical phenomenon.

(58:23):
So the Hookerman isn't real, neverwas, And those lights happen in you
know, other countries. Even so, Hawaii is known for two of them.
I think, I don't remember whichislands, but you know they have
that too. But I mean,we got stopped by the police. What
are you guys doing. We're lookingfor the Hookerman officer and he goes,

(58:44):
oh, you know you guys okay, So so we said, okay,
well we're done, So get inthe car. Everybody gets in the car
and we head out down you know, Drake'stown Road, and then I make
a left hand turn so I canturn around in the half is right behind
me. So I put my signalon to make a left and make a

(59:04):
left hand turn up this road becausethere's a cemetery on the left up that
road, and I turned into thecemetery and went off way up to the
back of it because I knew therewas a loop back there to come back
out, and the cop just kepton going. He probably figured we were
nuts, you know. Yeah.So yeah, you get pulled over,

(59:27):
you say, okay, well we'regoing to the cemetery again. You know,
we're looking for you know, ghosts. Well, I imagine that's that's
got to be a relief sometime forsome of these officers because it's, oh
well, it's it's these goofy kidslooking for ghosts. You know, at
least I'm not going to get,you know, involved in a shootout with
these guys. It's like define youknow. Yeah, we were all in
our thirties at the time, soyou know, oh yeah, and uh

(59:52):
before we go, I know youmentioned your book that you wrote on the
case earlier. Can that Is thatstill available on Amazon for our listeners to
check out? Yeah? It is, But to apologize to it, like
I said that, the editing onit is screwed up and I cannot correct
it. It's it's it's really yourpain. It's God, I can't even

(01:00:15):
remember the name of it. NowI'm getting old. It's god, it's
something on Haunted Hill? Was itThe Guardian on Haunted Hill? That's the
one. That's the one. Yeah, okay, I have I have several
books on there, but that's theonly fiction one that I wrote. Hmm.
Let's see here, let me makesure that there it is. Yes,

(01:00:40):
The Guardian of Haunted Hill, aparanormal murder. Hey, it's got
good reviews on there. You've gotfour point four out of five stars,
I mean, not bad. Yeah. Well, the only thing, like
I said, is is there's there'sthings in there that really ticked me off.
Oh yeah, I've corrected them onmy my you know, uh manuscript,

(01:01:04):
but I can't. I'm not allowedto you know, change it,
you know, so you know andupdated so to speak. But but it's
an interesting book. And at theend, I kind of, you know,
tell the story of what I what, what part of that story that
book would actually happened, because there'sa lot of things in there that of

(01:01:25):
course never happened. But you know, it has the three characters in it,
you know, Mee, Teddy andSteve Steve, and it has you
know, the police involved, andit has the victim, but the victim
is is trapped in there by theguardian. So that's that's pretty interesting,

(01:01:45):
you know phenomena that you know,she she wakes she wakes up and here's
buzzing noise, and then sees agroup of people who are also trapped there.
And the whole reason why they're trappedthere is because nobody ever said at
her death rest in peace. Andit's the same thing because there's a bunch

(01:02:07):
of victims from a train wreck fromdecades before that are also stuck there,
only about a dozen feet from hergrave. I'm glad that you mentioned that
because when I visited the cemetery backin twenty fourteen and Kranz showed me the

(01:02:27):
crime scene and we went and paidour respects at the gravesite. While walking,
I want to say, it's deadcenter in between, because she was
murdered in the southeast corner of thecemetery and she's buried in the northeast corner
and right in between them. Hetold me, he says, you see
that square kind of patch of dirtright there, And I say, because

(01:02:51):
there's there's no stone marking anything.And he said to me, that was
a train that derailed and that's themass grave for it. And I tried
looking into it online and I reallycouldn't find anything, so I wasn't sure
if he was mistaken or not.But you know about it too, so
yeah, what a crazy story.Yeah. The book says that it was

(01:03:15):
a train wreck from Pennsylvania to NewYork City and you know, people were
on it and back then it coulddo sixty miles seventy miles an hour,
I think I put and it wasa high speed rail at that point.
I've been on high speed rails inJapan and Taiwan and those things can do,
you know, almost two hundred milesan hour. I wouldn't want to

(01:03:37):
be in a wreck on that,but you know, it has the whole
sequence on the thing. And infact, if you if you look it
up on Amazon, you could seethe cover of the book. I designed
that cover myself and there's a there'sa stone Celtic cross on it, and
that cross I actually photographed that inIreland. Oh wow. And what I

(01:04:00):
did was is I photoshopped in aplacard on that And if you read that,
it's kind of cool. It's kindof cool. It's definitely worth checking
out I recommended to our listeners.I read it back four or five years
ago after I interviewed you for thefirst time, and it is a very
interesting piece of the lore, essentiallybecause it's this true life case that has

(01:04:29):
gone on to inspire a lot offictional media over the years. There was
another book that was written back inthe eighties. I believe it was called
Death among Strangers, and Princess Doewas even mentioned in a fictional aspect,
but in the MTV television show Fearabout twenty years ago, so it's a

(01:04:50):
pop culture cornerstone in true crime.Before she was identified, she also had
the notoriety of being the first personand added to that FBI missing person computer
system all the way back in nineteeneighty three, Krantz told me that he
was the person that hit the buttonon the keyboard in the FBI barracks.

(01:05:15):
So it's got a lot of loreto it. And Bob, again,
I can't thank you enough for comingon the show and talking about your involvement
in this case. I mean,you and I both breathed a sigh of
relief when the announcement was finally madebecause it was double announcement. It wasn't

(01:05:35):
just they had identified her, theyhad also identified her killer, definitively closing
the books on one of the mosttragic cold cases in American history. Yeah.
Well my book identifies their killer too, but it's not the real one
inspired by true events. I justwanted to say, you know, thank

(01:05:56):
you, Bob for coming on here. We really do appreciate your time and
you know, tell us a story. And I just want to say that
I'm kind of a fellow skeptic myselfof the paranormal, but anytime Jesse and
I talked to someone about, youknow, their paranormal experiences, I feel
that chiseling away just a little bit. So I just wanted to thank you
for coming on. Yeah, especiallyif you experience something yourself that's like,

(01:06:17):
I can't believe that that happened,you know, and then you go,
well, you know, who knows. We'll have to find out someday,
you know, and hope I'm aroundto do it, or from the other
side, I can harass whoever Iwant. You know, Well, thanks
you guys. It was my pleasureand I enjoyed, you know, kind

(01:06:39):
of reliving the story a little bit. And I'm just glad that it's it's
done, it's over with, it'ssolved, and now you know, the
poor dal can rest in peace hopefully, I hope. So yeah, Well
that's all for this week everyone.We'll be back real soon with further tales
of the unexplained, the paranormal,and the uncanny right here on Unknown Horizons.

(01:07:05):
Shot Across Across the Road. Bigis that we showed that it was

(01:08:02):
so far long ass just going