March 8, 2024 • 42 mins
Join Micheal and Jesse as they interview Dr. Brigid M. Burke, Ph.D. who witnessed an extraterrestrial encounter with her father while at the Jersey Shore during the 1990s. Dr. Burke is also an accomplished author and the host of the Chthonia podcast, and you can follow her impressive work at www.chthonia.net
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Welcome curious minds to another episode ofUnknown Horizons, where we navigate the unexplored
realms of the paranormal. Tonight,we're in for a real treat as doctor
Breese Burke shares a personal encounter aUFO sighting she experienced with her father during
the nineteen nineties in New Jersey.So grab your tinfoil hats and join us
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as we explore this extra terrestrial encounterwith doctor Breese Burke. I'm Jesse and
I'm Michael and this is Unknown HorizonsNow listeners. As I mentioned before,
tonight's guest is doctor Breese Burke.Doctor Burke is no stranger to the mysteries
of the unknown. With a PhDin literary studies from Drew University, She's
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delved deep into the enigmatic world ofliterature. But doctor Burke's journey doesn't end
there. She's also an accomplished authorand the insightful host of the Catonia podcast,
where she unravels the threats of mythand legend and like me, she
is also a contributor to Weird NewJersey magazine. So, without any further
Ado Breeze, welcome to Unknown Horizons. How are you tonight. I'm doing
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good. How are you doing verygood? Now? Michael, and I
understand that you had a UFO sitingout in New Jersey. Could you give
us some background about yourself and thentell us about this experience. Ah?
Sure. I'm actually a professor.I teach a religion and myth at Munckler
State University, and right now I'msort of retired from my previous career as
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a librarian, and now I'm justdoing a lot of different freelance work and
writing, working on a book fora publisher in Germany right now. So
just a lot of different stuff goingon. The particular incident that happened to
me was back in nineteen ninety four. This is I think beside had been
the year I got married. Yes, it was, because that was the
last time I think I ever wentdown to the Jersey Shore. We just
go out by family every year.It was the standard two week vacation,
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you know, you know, Dadto take off work for two weeks and
we'd all go, you know,we go somewhere an ocean beach, usually
down the Lavalette, and we wouldgo, you know, rent one of
those crappy cottages that had no airconditioning and it was so it was one
of those and I think it wasthe last year that I had gone down
with them. Now my father wassomebody who was he was at you know,
he actually so he just died aboutsix weeks ago. But he was
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an Air Force crew chief and pilotback in the nineteen fifties, and he
was really like into airplanes. Hewas really into flying machinery of all kinds,
and even you know, throughout hisentire life, that was like his
obsession. He just loved airplanes.And so what he did was he always
whenever we went down the shore,he would always bring his binoculars with him
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because he was he just loved tolike see like, you know what way.
And then he'd tell me, oh, yeah, this is this kind
of a jet, or it's this, or it's that, you know,
like he was just his thing.And I remember we had gotten down there
in the evening and he was standingoutside and we stood kind of you know,
in the driveway or kind of nearthe road there, and he was
looking up at the sky and Ithought this thing that I thought was like
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a planet, you know, likeI don't know, it was a planet
Venus or something you know, itjust looked like this star just just sitting
there in the sky, and hewas looking at it in his binoculars,
and all of a sudden he calledmy name and he said hey, he
says, come over here, andI said to him, I said,
well, you know what's up.He hands me the binoculars, he points
to it. He goes, youlook at that, and you tell me
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what that is. So I tookthe binoculars, which I own now actually,
and I pointed them up at thesky and I looked at it,
and there's this weird looking saucer shapedobject. Now, mind you, I
am not a I'm really into thekind of ghost thing. UFOs have never
really been my thing. Okay,for him, they kind of are,
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because he likes anything that has todo with anything that flies through the air.
That was kind of his thank soto me. It's not like I
would have been out looking for it. I never was really a big believer
in it or anything like that.I just thought, okay, you know,
it's one of those things. Butwhen I looked at this thing,
it was like, no, itwas literally your traditional. It was like
this silver It was like kind oflike that cigar shape you know that they're
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very like loud oval shape. AndI looked at my father, I'm like,
I don't know, and he's like, you know, he's just I've
never seen anything like that either,And again he's somebody who would be much
more qualified to know what that wouldbe rather than myself of course. Yeah,
So when I looked at that,I was just like, Okay,
that's just really it was just reallykind of a creepy kind of a moment,
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but kind of cool at the sametime, because I was like,
wow, you know, I don'tknow, maybe there is something to that,
you know, I mean, butit was just one of those really
really weird things. And I don'tremember how long it was there before,
but it sat there for a veryvery long time. It just seemed to
me. It seemed to me likewhen I looked back, you know,
ten minutes later, twenty it wasstill there, like right in the same
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place, yeah, exactly. Andso I don't know. He didn't really
say too much more about it,other than he wanted somebody else to look
at it and kind of verify that, Okay, I'm seeing this correctly,
right like you're seeing what I'm seeingright now. So I don't know.
It was pretty weird actually, LikeI said, I think I got married
a month later, and I said, maybe they were coming to warn me
not to do that, but itwas, you know, it was you
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know, but it was interesting.And I have to say that I've had
some other kind of weird experiences afterthat, where I've seen again things out
in the horizon that I'm like,I don't know what that is, but
that one was like very very clear, like to me, I'm not sure
if these other things I ever sawlater on were just you know, I
don't know, like I'm just misinterpretingan aircraft or something like that, but
that was something that was really reallyvery clearly fit the kind of classic UFO
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shape and dynamic you know, ohno, one hundred percent. And you
know, any aircraft that we knowabout as civilians or even like your father,
a seasoned military professional, they don'tjust hover in one spot for over
ten minutes. This is I'm notgoing to say definitively it's not of our
world, but it's definitely not somethingthat people are used to seeing. And
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I know we're going back a longtime, nearly thirty years, but could
you describe anything else you remember aboutit, like did it have reflective qualities?
Were there any lights on it?I can't remember seeing any lights to
me. It just looked I mean, it probably did. It was probably
just sort of you know, butI didn't see anything that would specifically say
like windows or anything like that.It was disc shaped from what I can
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remember, and it was silver andcolor and it seemed to have kind of
like that rounded top to it.But that was about all I could see
of it through the binoculars. Butyeah, it was definitely. I just
remember it was this very, veryweird shape that I'm like, Okay,
I don't I've never seen any youknow. It's not an airplane, it's
not a helicopter. It's not nota wet or balloon, it's not you
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know, it's not a satellite.It's just this weird thing. And yeah,
it was just hovering. It wasn'tmaking any sound, which is something
that we hear time and time again, certainly with every UFO interview that we
have conducted on this show so far. Yea, these things are always,
without exception, silent. Yeah,and that seems to add to the kind
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of like the eerie feeling of itbecause we think of planes, you know,
even if they're going to hover,you think of like a helicopter,
Like that's probably the loudest thing inthe sky. And this you were describing
as just sitting there motionless, notmaking any sound. It just defies everything
you would expect, right, andthe fact that from the ground without the
binoculars, it did actually look kindof like a bright object, like a
planet, you know, it justthat's what it looked like. So yeah,
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so I guess in terms of light, yes, it was kind of
from the ground it was this brightthing, but when you actually looked at
it, I didn't really see thelight in it. It just looked like
this silver object that I was like, what, you know, it was
just really really strange. Now wasthe illumination on this object in the sky?
Was this a light being refracted fromthe sun? This was actually at
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twilight, so the sun was alreadylike gone down kind of below the It
wasn't totally below the horizon, butit wasn't being refracted. And I'm not
even sure that it was a moonthat night. I don't remember seeing one.
Do you remember what the weather waslike that night? Was like a
pretty clear night, was very clear, yes, okay, and as far
as I mean, obviously from theground, even with binoculars, you can't
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really judge how far up or evenif it's within the atmosphere or outside the
atmosphere. But in your memory abouthow far up did you have to crane
your neck to look at it?Was it high up like the moon in
the middle of the night, orwas it closer to the horizon. I
didn't have to crane my neck.It wasn't like something way way, way,
way way far away. That said, it wasn't like really super close
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to the horizon line. But tome, like I said, it looks
kind of like when you had likethe evening star or something like right there
in the sky and it's like reallybright and it's right there and not this
little pin point that's far away,you know what I mean, So I
imagine it's not. While wasn't superclose to the ground, I didn't feel
like it was anything like it wassuper far away either. Would it have
been within the realm of possibility thatsay, this object appeared to be within
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the atmosphere at the same like sortof cruising altitude as you'd see a commercial
jetliner, or did it seem likeit was closer to the ground or further
away from the ground. I thinkit was lower than cruising altitude, because
cruising altitudes is usually like about thirtyeight thousand feet, right, m hmm,
Yeah, I would say it waslower than that. I guess if
I had to guess it based onthat, I'd have to say maybe twenty
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thousand feet. Okay, it wasa little bit lower than that. Yeah.
This is such an interesting thing too, because you have the element here,
and this is something that isn't verycommon with the sightings that we've discussed,
at least on this show, isyou have the element of the binoculars
in this one. So it isalmost like, and I don't want to
assign anything ominous to this sighting,but it is like almost the perfect cover
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because for this craft, if anyoneis looking at it on the ground with
the naked eye, they may assumewhat you would initially assumed, Oh,
it's an evening star, or it'svenus or mercury, or a handful of
other things. But the fact thatyour father happened to have the binoculars with
him and got a better look atit, it just makes it all the
more interesting. Especially since that thiswas at the very least it seemed to
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be stationary. Yeah, exactly.And if he hadn't had binoculars and had
had his habit of looking at thatstuff, I mean, I never would
have noticed it. I never wouldhave assumed that it was anything other than
a planet. It didn't look likeanything else from the ground. But when
I saw that, I just thought, WHOA, that's really compelling, you
know, for somebody who didn't reallythink any of that really happened at all.
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So I'm not sure if you'll beable to answer this, because you
know, it was so far awayand you're only able to see it through
binoculars, but were able to seealmost like the color of it or like
what it was made out of.Was it like transparent or was it just
kind of like a dark shape thatwas up there that looked bright. It
seemed metallic to me, Like Isaid, it was more like a silver
gray kind of a color like notsuper you know, shiny, but it
was kind of like a like adark metallic gray, is what I remember.
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Okay, when I had the binocularson it, it didn't look as
bright to me as it did fromthe ground, So it just almost seemed
to have a duller finish when Ilooked at it through there. But that's
why I was really surprised, becauseit was just this disk that was this
very metallic ray color. Again fromwhat's burned into my memory about it and
those sort of light conditions at thebeach. I mean, I was at
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the beach this past June, andI remember it was a very very clear
day. It wasn't at twilight,it was mid afternoon, but I just
remember looking up at the sky andbeing very struck at how clear the vantage
point was because from one end ofthe horizon to the next, because of
no light pollution, there's no skyscraperswhere I was or anything like that,
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no mountains bordering the beach. SoI had this very clear view from one
end of the horizon to the next. And a commercial jetliner flew over,
and I just remember it caught myeye just because of the way that the
sun in conditions like that reflects offof a metallic surface, especially that high
up in the air, and it'sunmistakable. It's not like you know,
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looking at something else that would beup there. Your eyes are looking at
something you recognize that, Oh no, that is sunlight being reflected off of
a metallic surface. It's something thatyou recognize right away. And it is
very interesting too because again, likeit defies the logic of well, it
could have been a plane like theone that I just described to you,
because it wasn't moving, Which leadsme to my next question, what ultimately
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happened to it? Was it theclassic thing where it zipped off into some
other realm or did it fade away? Did it just in the blink of
an eye vanished? What ultimately happenedto it? That's actually a good question.
I don't remember, like seeing whatthe finale was, if you will,
so I don't know if it didfly off, But it just seems
to me that it was there,and that at another point when I looked,
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it just wasn't there. So Idon't know. My inclination would be
to say that it sort of justfaded out and it just wasn't there anymore.
But I can't swear that that's actuallywhat happened, because I didn't see
where it went to. Like Isaid, I watched it for a while
and it just seemed like it wasthere for you know, you know how
it is with time. You know, you think, oh, it's a
really long time, but you know, just because your arms are tired and
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your board of standing there with somebinoculars, you know, yeah, five
minutes could seem like, you know, a half an hour. But I
think my father watched it for sometime after that, and I don't know,
I want to say that again,this is just more of a feeling
than an exact time thing. ButI just kind of feel like it was
maybe there for about a half anhour and then it was just not there.
Well, even if it was onlythere for five minutes as opposed to
a half an hour, that's stillmore than enough time to judge if it's
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moving or not. You know,it only takes a matter of seconds,
especially with the aid of binoculars,to determine if an object in the sky
is moving towards you, away fromyou, to the left, to the
right. No, this thing wasstationary, and then for it to just
be gone a moment later is verystrange. You know. It's not one
of these things where it's like,oh, okay, well it eventually moved
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far away off into the distance andwe lost track of it. I mean,
it still could have just zipped offand you and your father could have
blinked and missed it. But thefact that something sat there that long and
then suddenly was no longer there againhints to some sort of technology that we
do not necessarily have, at leastpublicly on this planet. Yeah, exactly.
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And to me, I almost wonder, like when I see that's something
like that where, you know,because like I said, I've seen things
not exactly like that, but Ihave seen other things, you know,
on the horizon where I live nowin Hunter and County, and it's like,
it just seems like it's there.It's just sitting there in the sky,
and then all of a sudden it'sjust gone. And I'm always like,
is it like disappearing into another dimensionor something. It's just I don't
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know, it's very strange to me. Well, it definitely could be if
you believe in the theory that thesecrafts or whatever they are are using the
aid of wormholes to go between locationsin the universe. So who knows where
they're coming from, where they're going, how they get there. And I
think that's why these stories really capturethe imagination of the public at large,
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because it is ultimately unanswerable, andfor so many decades, either you believed
in it or it was laughed off. But I mean, Michael, we've
discussed this several times on the show. Now, ever since that bombshell report
by the government was eighteen months agosomething like that, acknowledging that, you
know, the military, we've beenwatching this stuff for a long time,
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and even with all of the advancedtechnology that we have now, they cannot
pinpoint what this stuff is, tothe point that they've even changed the nomenclature.
It's no longer UFO, it's whatis it UAB or something a UAP
unidentified aerial phenomenon. Yeah, forthe government to actually come out and admit
this stuff and release some of thesevideos that are taken with I believe infrared.
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Either way, it's footage taken onUnited States military aircraft showing these things
moving the way that no aircraft thatwe know of, or even spacecraft designed
by NASA can move within the atmosphere. It's just I wonder what we're going
to know twenty years from now.Because as a kid growing up in the
early nineties watching all the Discovery Channelspecials about Area fifty one and Roswell and
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the the government refuses to acknowledge anyof this, and now they're talking about
it and backing it up with video. I can only wonder where it's going
to go from here. Yeah,you know what I find interesting too,
Like I think about my father asan air force man, okay, and
again, very practical, very downto earth. I mean, he was
not you know, this is aguy who was not spiritual. He was
not really like, he didn't haveany kind of He was like one of
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the most down to earth people you'dever know. And so for him,
you know, the fact that hewas very fascinated with that and seemed to
be very convinced of their existence.You know, I often kind of wondered,
I'm like, okay, well,as a guy who you know,
works on airplanes and stuff like that, I mean I often wonder if,
you know, because he wasn't nevermuch of a talker either, But I
just don't know there was something thathe ever experienced to make him feel that
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way while he was in the military, you know what I mean. Yeah,
I mean that's all speculation, butit was just something I always wondered
about, you know, And Ithink about that. Yeah, now that
they're saying that, Yeah, there'syou know, I imagine there's probably a
lot of pilots and a lot ofmilitary who see this kind of stuff,
and you know, they were justkind of like, yeah, don't don't
report that, don't talk about that, you know. And that's what I
wanted to bring up next too,because even though this happened in nineteen ninety
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four, if you're a career AirForce pilot, engineer, anything, you
know, down to the guy thatmops the floors, all the way up
to you know, join chiefs ofstaff, you didn't talk about that stuff
even in the nineties, which wasfour decades into UFO's being in the public
consciousness five I think because Kenneth Arnoldwas nineteen forty seven, I believe,
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so, yeah, fifty years eventhen, you did not talk about seeing
strange things in the sky when youwere working for the Air Force. So
much so that Michael, have youseen the nineteen ninety four Michigan UFO episode
of Unsolved Mysteries that just dropped?I have? That is actually a really
great episode that might have been myfavorite of the New Bunch. Yeah,
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and look at the meteorologist in Michigan, Jack Bushong just your run of the
mill meteorologist in a little Michigan area. He was practically, for all intents
and purposes, forced out of hisjob because he acknowledged seeing these things on
radar during official communication with a policeofficer, and even that with that much
providence to back up a sighting likethat, he was still run out of
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his job and run out of Michigan. He had to take a job.
And I believe Georgia and even now, like government agencies, if you work
for him, like, they don'twant to be known as the agency that
like condones UFO work basically, Sothere's just everyone is going to want to
distance themselves professionally from those claims andyou know, those sightings and stuff like
that. So there's still like that, like Jesse's hinting at, like that
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ostracition that comes from yeah, whichagain just further underlines why I believe everyone
out there and I'm not saying peopleshould panic about this or anything, that
everyone out there should be taking thatreport from the government about these unidentified aerial
phenomenon very seriously. This is thesame government that did not encourage people to
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speak up about seeing these things,whether they were commercial airline pilots, to
civilians, to military officials, andnow they're finally acknowledging it and releasing video
evidence to back it up. Idon't know what their end game is by
releasing the stuff. I don't knowif their hand was forced through the Freedom
of Information Act. I mean,not that that's ever really stopped these people
before, But it is very interestinghow much UFO culture is evolving this decade.
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Again, I've said it before,I will be very, very curious
to see what we will know twentyyears from now. I mean, look
how long it took them to acknowledgethat there was even a base at Groom
Lake. Now, of course theysay Area fifty one, Oh no,
it's a band and nothing's there anymore. But yet they still have guards there
saying like, hey, you crossedthis ridge, we can shoot you and
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get away with it. So,yeah, Breeze, did your kind of
like thinking of UFOs and that typeof stuff. Did that change after this
incident? Well? Yeah, Imean it was something. I can't say
it was something that became like anew obsession for me or anything, but
it did make me think that,okay, there could be something to this.
My whole approach to UFOs and actuallyto anything that you might think of
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the say, paranormal. I've alwaysbeen the type of person who, you
know, while I'm not just likesort of like, yeah, I believe
everything that I hear, at thesame time, I also acknowledge that there's
a whole lot out there that isnot. I mean, as an academic,
okay, yeah, I'm obviously traineda certain way and to think a
certain way, But I'm also perfectlyaware that the kinds of methods that we
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use to determine what we think ofas factual or truthful don't always necessarily apply
in anomalist situations. They only applyin predictable situations, you know, where
you cause an effect and you canalways determine a repeatable result on something,
And this is the kind of stuffthat falls outside of that. And to
me, I find all of thatvery fascinating, and I feel like that's
just a piece of things that peopletry to pretend, you know, kick
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under the rug and try to say, well, yeah, it's probably just
people making it up. It's probablyfake, it's probably this. So I
think, if anything, it justkind of says to me, whatever it
actually is, whether it's actually aliens, whether it's some kind of interdimensional thing.
Honestly, after I've been to Ireland, I fully believe at this point
in sort of interdimensional kinds of stuffor you know, bendings of time and
space and stuff like that. Idon't know. I have a much different
(21:15):
attitude on it over the years,but that particular incident, Yeah, that
was probably the first time that Iactually thought about the idea that there could
be something potentially out there, whetherit's there or whether like some people say,
whether you're coming from under the earth, like under the water or something.
You know, there's I've seen awhole bunch of theories since that time,
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and it just seems to me whilewhile some of them seem far fetched,
I mean, there's also other onesthat I'm like, well, I
don't know, we don't know,and I wouldn't discount it. It's a
very healthy attitude to take because thereseems to be a perception among more skeptical
people that in order to believe inthe existence or the possibility of extraterrestrial life
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or being visited by extraterrestrial aircraft,spacecraft, whatever you want to call it,
means that you have to accept everythingin the lore and every reported sighting
and it's just not true. Imean, I'm a believer. I believe
in these things. I've seen thingswith my own eyes that I cannot explain.
But I can also sit here andconfidently say that a good eighty to
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ninety percent of the popularly reported UFOsightings that have stuck around in paranormal culture
for whatever reason are dudes in theirbackyard with a polaroid that threw a hubcap
in the air, or people withtheir low resolution camcorder seeing a helicopter in
the air and thinking it's a flyingsaucer because it looks weird in the cloud.
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Stuff like that. You look ata lot of these old photos that
were you know, in Project blueBook and even on stuff like Unsolved Mysteries
and Sightings. Sightings is one ofthose shows from back then that no one
talks about anymore, but that wasa big one in the zeitgeist at the
time, and you go on YouTubeand watch old UFO episodes of sightings and
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it's like, that's a fucking hubcap. So yeah, you gotta be reasonable
with stuff like that when you havephenomenon that is so unexplainable and defies such
logic and convention. You have totreat everything on a case by case basis.
Of course, there's people out theretrying to make a name for themselves
with these sightings and thinking, youknow, well, I'm gonna get a
(23:25):
book deal, and you know,I'm gonna be like Travis Wallton and get
a movie made about me, oryou know, whatever their motivations may be.
There are frauds out there, butthere are also things like again the
Michigan incident, where there's just somuch corroboration between radar police, sixty different
counties calling in emergency services to reportit, and even smaller microcosms of things
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like that, like your experience withyour father, a trained Air Force officer
who observed it. So those arethe things that really need to make people
pause and not be so skeptical.Like I always laugh at people when they
don't know the aliens fly. UFOsnotes, it's impossible, is it in
(24:08):
an infinite universe? That yeah,the universe is a really big place.
It's a really big place. Andgoing back to what you were saying before
about could it be alternate, multipledimensions and stuff like that, of course
that's possible. The brightest and bestastrophysicists. You want to stump one,
ask them, where does the universebegin an end? They don't have an
(24:29):
answer for it. It's nonsensical,the concept of the universe as it is,
anti matter, all this stuff.It defies what our brains have been
hardwired through evolution to accept as understandable. And yet we're still here experiencing these
things. Yeah, well that's definitelytrue, you know, when I think
about it, I mean just thinkingabout it from my own profession, from
the own field that I that Iwork in, which has to do with,
(24:51):
you know, archetypes and psychology.Because one of the big theories about
UFOs is like that there are acontinuation of things like fairies or things like
that, like aliens or the nexthorizon, the next thing that we don't
know about, and this is thebeing that we attached to it or something
like that. But I don't know. I only feel like with these things
there's some kind of a reality toit as well. It's not, you
know, it's not simply that.I mean, I've heard material scientists.
(25:15):
I had got listened to a Societyfor Psychical Research talk by this guy who
was a material scientist from Cambridge butthey lived in China talking about I mean,
this is completely different time. Buthe was just talking about how he
had four wisdoms. He's taken outlike in an hour with no anesthesia.
And he's like, how did thisguy do this? But you know that
was his whole thing. And theguy says, oh, yeah, I
use a mantra. Well you know, okay, but literally doesn't sound possible.
(25:37):
He's like, but he did it. And I'm like, so his
point was just are we looking atthe universe the right way? He's like,
we're always looking at everything in termsof matter. Maybe we need to
look in terms of like units ofconsciousness, and maybe at different types of
places and different types of consciousness.Maybe there's different laws that it functions.
And he'd written this up for apeer reviewed article and it was just a
really interesting idea that we always tendto think of things in terms of the
(25:59):
matter of the universe when we say, yes, but you know this can't
happen because of this, and notbecause we look at everything in such these
very strict concrete material terms. Butmaybe that's not the way to look at
it. Yeah, Well, eventhinking about just time itself. Like we
think of things in a very linearlike everything starts at midnight and ends at
midnight frame of you. But youknow, space doesn't really work that way.
Like if you go out into space, time operates differently and there's different
(26:22):
things to you know, just gettinginto space and time. It's almost confusing.
It hurts my brain to think about. But just I always write it
off as time is a human conceptand that's about as serious as we should
take it. Yeah, exactly,it's the arrow of time. Yeah,
and they've talked about how that's anillusion. Yeah, space and time are
absolutely an illusion, but that's justhow we experience things, and we don't.
We experience everything that's measured, youknow, we measure everything. Yeah.
(26:45):
Well the interesting thing too is Imean it kind of touches upon what
you had mentioned just a few momentsago. But it also it addresses another
criticism of the UFO zeitgeist of ohwell, it's just the current like sort
of sad thing or oh you know, well that grew out of post World
War two paranoia and all that,but it's really not that much of a
(27:07):
modern phenomenon. I mean, oneof the things that always really freaked me
out, especially when I was akid, and you know, cracking open
the Old Time Life books about theparanormal or watching stuff like In Search of
with Leonard Nimoy. Was all ofthe cave paintings that have been discovered through
the years, showing things that looklike your classic gray aliens, things that
(27:29):
resemble sasquatch or even the moth Man. There are certain cave paintings and even
examples of Native American artwork that resemblethe classic cryptozoology designs that we've become familiar
with in the late twentieth and earlytwenty first century. So this stuff isn't
as new as a lot of jadedpeople want to say. I mean,
granted, these paintings were made byearly humans who were afraid of what the
(27:55):
sun did. But still you lookat some of these designs and you go,
what were they seeing? And werethey seeing things that are too different
than what we're experiencing now. Someof those paintings are really talking. They're
bizarre, they're very eerie. Haveyou seen the now listeners, You'll have
to forgive me if this has beendebunked in the thirty years since I saw
(28:15):
these appear on a Discovery Channel documentary. But they were these I don't know
if they were carved out of goldor something similar, but they were like
these little I guess they were toys. I want to say they were done
by the Aztecs. And one ofthem looked like a seven fifty seven jumbo
jet carved out of gold or woodor whatever it was. And they're like,
no, this is hundreds of yearsold, but it looks like something
(28:37):
Boeing made, Like I remember seeingsomething like that, and it always sort
of tied into that one theory that'sout there that maybe these aren't extra terrestrial,
Maybe these are cumans from thousands millionsof years down the road time traveling
back, and that's why we're seeingthese modern looking things and cave paintings and
trinkets and toys made by quote unquoteprimitive cultures. I don't know. It's
(29:02):
all so strange and weird, andI guess that's why we're sitting here talking
about it. Yeah, it's likeour brains are trying to figure out reason,
but sometimes there just is none,so we just end up, you
know, talking about it and theorizing, and it really gets the imagination going.
Well, that's it you can onlyspeculate, and that's yeah, that's
always been my thing. Reason.I mean, reason is obviously a very
useful tool, but it only goesso far with some of the stuff.
(29:25):
And that's where it gets interesting,because it becomes it's like a pump.
I'm looking it up right now.It's got a name. It's I'm going
to butcher the pronunciation of this.I think it's called the Kimbaya artifact.
When you see it, you mightknow what I'm talking about because it's so
bizarre looking. I thought on aprogram once. It definitely is familiar to
(29:48):
me, but I can't remember ifit's something that they had debunked or not
that I cannot remember, yeah,because they always have, Like you know,
there's a ninety percent chance with allthese cool discoveries that two weeks later
they're like, oh, yeah,it' psych now it's a fraud. Like
I remember when I was in highschool, there was that huge controversy with
the Ossuary of James when they hadsaid, no, we found the bone
(30:08):
box of Jesus's brother James, becausethey found some old box made out of
stone that said James, brother ofJesus on it, and they were like
this proves Jesus was real, Andof course, like a month later they're
like, not, it's fake.So coming from my point of view,
I'm like, yeah, definitely fake. But yeah, I do remember that
too. Yeah, you have toalways be careful with artifacts, as you
(30:29):
never know if the hoax or not. Yeah, just like the I'm not
sure if it's been definitive or not. Dan Ackwright will be very disappointed if
it is proven to be a hoax. But from what I understand, I
think the Crystal skulls ended up beinga load of bullshit too, But I
don't have the paperwork in front ofme. Listeners, you'll have to forgive
me. I know a lot ofpeople who are into the whole Crystal skull
thing, and I'm like kind oflike, I don't know, I'm not
(30:52):
particularly impressed by that myself. Yeah, they're undeniably cool, but not really
paranormal. Yeah. Yeah, No, if you're like a nerd like me
or like Zach Began's and like youhave these ideas of like I want to
be like the paranormal Indiana Jones andhave a shelf full of cool things,
like this is a haunted doll Igot from a voodoo tribe and this is
(31:14):
a crystal skull from the Aztecs,Like, yeah, that's awesome, but
if it's made up by some dunein California in the fifties, like yeah,
that sucks. And that shit washappening a lot in the fifties and
the sixties, people like carving somebullshit in their garage and like dumping it
off at an excavation site and beinglike, see, look, this is
a proof of something that I'm tryingto sell and get rich off of.
(31:37):
And unfortunately, a lot of peoplefell for those things, and it cast
a lot of doubt on the fieldof research. And I'm not going to
try and get all high and mightyand be like, you know, the
field of paranormal studies should be takenas seriously as oncology. Like no,
at the end of the day,it's a cool, unanswerable question that leads
(31:57):
to interesting conversation like we're having rightnow. But it definitely made it a
lot easier for people to roll theireyes at these conversations. And I fear
that we're getting back to that witha lot of this paranormal reality television garbage
that's out there, like I thinkit's setting us back well. And you
know what you got to think abouttoo, is the fact that, like,
okay, do you think about whatphotography was Like, people take photographs
(32:22):
that are supposed to prove, sothey've seen certain phenomenon, whether it's ghosts,
UFOs whatever, And now, ofcourse with all the tools that we
have with digital photography, people go, oh, yeah, let's probably say.
And the way that they faked thingsback then was so ridiculous too.
Like I remember when I was Idon't want to say I was a toddler.
I was probably like maybe five orsix. There was this movie that
(32:42):
came out that was about what wasit in Ireland or Scotland or England one
of the UK countries that guy atthe turn of the century claimed that he
had taken photos of his daughters withfairies in them. Yeah, and the
movie the way that the movie didit with special effects and all this stuff.
Like I remember watching the movie beinglike because my sisters were really into
it, and I remember seeing itand I was like, holy shit,
(33:06):
someone got pictures of fairies and likeI went to the public library the next
day and saw like the actual photosand it's like they're holding up piece as
a cardboard that someone drew fair Theseare drawings and like apparently there were enough
people in the UK at the timelike I, oh my gold day.
She's proof that, like we're stillremembering it and like they made a movie
(33:27):
ninety years later about it, whenit's just like, how did this shit
fool anyone? And also that's likeif anybody knows anything about fairy lore,
I mean, you know, thelittle cute see Victorian fairies. It's like
angels. You know, people arelike, oh, look at these cute
little bit I'm like, no,they're they're not cute. They're nasty.
You know, they're scary. They'relike ten feet tall and would scare the
crap out of you, just likeangels, like they've got a million eyes
(33:49):
and like you know, foreheads,yet like they're not. I made myself
an authentic angel treetop for one year. My mom, pull the hell's up,
I'm coping angels and you ever readthe But yeah, yeah, if
they're not, they're not. Ifsomebody's showing you that, and like,
yeah, that's the thing that struckme as pretty eerie was if you look
at the artist representation of the biblicallyaccurate angel, the one with all the
(34:14):
owl wings and the way that itdoesn't seem to have a head but it
has legs. If you look atthat and you compare it with like the
original eyewitness pencil sketch of one ofthe first Mothman witnesses, Roger and Linda
Scarberry, the ones that were ridingin the car past the teen t area
and saw it. Yeah, thesimilarities between those two are very striking.
(34:35):
And now I'm not trying to saylike the Mothman is a Biblical angel,
but it did strike me as kindof eerie, especially when you consider the
whole Silver Bridge collapsing and people wonderinglike, was the Mothman a quote unquote
angel of doom, an angel ofdeath? Was it there to warn it?
Did it cause the bridge collapse?It's just like, if you know
about the actual biblical description of angelsand then you look at those eyewitness sketches,
(34:59):
it is a little unsettling. ButI had actually even thought about that.
Yeah, well yeah, and thething about the biblical angels too,
is just that well, supposedly twothose were actually if you look at ancient
Babylonians, some of their like wingedkind of intermediary creatures, they also look
remarkably similar and very likely of courseit was copied from there. But that
(35:20):
whole thing I mean of the intermediaryyou know, really it comes down to
angles and demons. Really harn't anydifferent. But yeah, some people get
upset with me that that is afact. I mean, they're they're intermediaries.
That's the whole idea, that theykind of mediate between you and something
else. That's what they're supposed tobe anyway. Well, their visual representation
is also so cemented with European likethe Romance period in art, like the
(35:45):
whole like the vision of the archangelMichael and all that stuff like that's all
rooted with Leonardo da Vinci and hispaintings of it, you know, which
he used himself as a model ofLike how modest of him. But yeah,
if you look at the other culturesand their winged creatures and stuff like
that, they all seem to beunited in being different from that. You
(36:07):
look at like the thunderbird in NativeAmerican culture and all these other ones,
and it's more animalistic and strange asopposed to Oh, look at this gorgeous
Aryan with his dove wings and hisgreat shield of armor. It's just linked
to the art of the time.And that's another thing that has made bullshit
(36:27):
meters for lack of a better term, much more effective as time has gone
on, because you can weed outa lot of those fake UFO reports and
sightings from the forties, fifties,and sixties by seeing like how quickly these
crafts fall out of fashion, Likethey don't look like stuff from the day
the Earth stood still anymore. Youknow, it's not a hubcap in the
(36:49):
sky, like I said. Andthat's once you get into the eighties and
the nineties. That's when you getinto the more like the cigar shaped craft
or the lights that start in acluster and then eventually random eyes and stuff
like that. And those are theones that I tend to take more seriously
because they're not romanticized. They're notlike, oh yeah, no, it's
just like in a movie, andit acted just like a movie, Like
(37:10):
I like sightings like yours, whereit's like no, like you know,
you would think like, oh yeah, no, we saw you know,
zip across the sky at speeds thatwe can't even dream of approaching. No,
you saw something that hovered around twentythousand feet for several minutes, and
that is not something a human aircraftcan do, right, Yeah, it
(37:31):
was. It was definitely strange.And I remember there was that show which
has kind of gone downhill unfortunately.I know Mark and Marks and Weird New
Jersey were on it that paranormal caughton camera, Yeah, which is kind
of a but I remember somebody hadsubmitted a video of this thing that just
looked like it almost looks like it'skind of like it's like that. It
reminded me of those cat toys thatyou know, you throw and they like
(37:51):
they make the rainbow lights to comeoff of them, but it's just like
in the sky and it was therefor a long time, and I've seen
something like that in Hampton where Ilive. I looked out and I was
like, what the heck is that? And it hovered there for a very
long time until it disappeared, andI was like, that's really weird.
And then my friend told me,she's like, oh, yeah, it
was on nextdoor dot com. Somebodysaw it more in County two and I'm
like, well, I don't knowwhat that was. But again, I
(38:13):
didn't get a really good look atit, So I'm kind of like,
I don't know that that's what itwas, but it was just weird,
you know. Yeah. And Imean now in modern times, like we
have commercial drones, military drones,and even like the little ones that you
could buy a Walmart for twenty orthirty dollars, but they can't go twenty
thousand feet up in the air andjust sit there for a half hour.
Physics does not work like that.It just doesn't, no, And they
(38:37):
make noise to those drones. Imean, even if it's just like a
hum, they make a noise,you know. Yeah. Before we wrap
up for tonight, you had mentioned, of course that you, in addition
to writing papers and stuff like that, that you have books out and of
course your podcast. Can you tellour listeners where they can find all things
you My podcast is called Katonia andthat's spelled chta O ni A, and
(39:01):
I talk about what I call thedark feminine because my specialty has to do
with the underworld and different conceptions ofthe underworld and particularly female figures like goddesses
things like that that are connected withthe underworld. So that tends to be
my focus. And Katonia Dot netis my is my website, and my
podcast is hosted on spreaker. Ialso do a video version of it on
(39:23):
YouTube on the Katonia channel, andI have, yeah, the books I'm
working on, I mean, allmy books are on Katonia dot net.
I'm currently working on a book fortheon publishing on the goddess, the Irish
Goddess Morgan, which is called PhantomQueen, and that's actually a nonfiction book.
So that's a new thing that we'llbe coming out in twenty twenty four.
(39:45):
And you know, I've got severalother new things in the works,
but yeah, that's the main thingright now. That's where most of my
creative output, podcast and writing outputis a Katonia dot net. Excellent and
we can't thank you enough for joiningus tonight, and we will. I'd
love to have you back on becauseI know you have had further brushes with
the paranormal and even aside from that, with your expertise with the lore of
(40:07):
the underworld, especially the female characterswithin a lot of mythology pertaining to that.
I would love to have a discussionabout the origins of Lilith and her
connection with sort of modern vampire lorebecause we're seeing a lot of resurgence in
that, especially in quote unquote gothculture now, So I think it would
(40:29):
be interesting to actually get back tothe roots of all that and talk about
that, because I've always found thatvery fascinating. The whole Adam had a
first wife portion of it. Imean, you know, that's a whole
other thing we can get into.But yeah, we would definitely love to
have you come back on and talkabout that. Yeah, I doesn't love
to do that. Yeah, andthanks so much for coming on. Yeah,
Hey, thanks a lot. Michael'sgot to meet you virtually, and
(40:50):
yeah, and I'll hopefully talk toyou guys soon. Yeah, hopefully we'll
chat soon. Explorers of the Unexplained, thank you for joining us on yet
another journey through the mysteries of theparanormal. Keep seeking the truth beyond the
veil, and until our next encounter, may the unknown always spark your imagination.
I'm Jesse and I'm Michael and thisis Unknown Horizon, signing off across
(41:38):
across the Ash show heard the mostsong and Rush Gus from Rush Sure again
(42:06):
and they share you once. Marswas filed almost in to the Vegas second
show that comes so far this,as long as it's just going stand
Welcome curious minds to another episode ofUnknown Horizons, where we navigate the unexplored
realms of the paranormal. Tonight,we're in for a real treat as doctor
Breese Burke shares a personal encounter aUFO sighting she experienced with her father during
the nineteen nineties in New Jersey.So grab your tinfoil hats and join us
(00:22):
as we explore this extra terrestrial encounterwith doctor Breese Burke. I'm Jesse and
I'm Michael and this is Unknown HorizonsNow listeners. As I mentioned before,
tonight's guest is doctor Breese Burke.Doctor Burke is no stranger to the mysteries
of the unknown. With a PhDin literary studies from Drew University, She's
(00:47):
delved deep into the enigmatic world ofliterature. But doctor Burke's journey doesn't end
there. She's also an accomplished authorand the insightful host of the Catonia podcast,
where she unravels the threats of mythand legend and like me, she
is also a contributor to Weird NewJersey magazine. So, without any further
Ado Breeze, welcome to Unknown Horizons. How are you tonight. I'm doing
(01:11):
good. How are you doing verygood? Now? Michael, and I
understand that you had a UFO sitingout in New Jersey. Could you give
us some background about yourself and thentell us about this experience. Ah?
Sure. I'm actually a professor.I teach a religion and myth at Munckler
State University, and right now I'msort of retired from my previous career as
(01:33):
a librarian, and now I'm justdoing a lot of different freelance work and
writing, working on a book fora publisher in Germany right now. So
just a lot of different stuff goingon. The particular incident that happened to
me was back in nineteen ninety four. This is I think beside had been
the year I got married. Yes, it was, because that was the
last time I think I ever wentdown to the Jersey Shore. We just
go out by family every year.It was the standard two week vacation,
(01:56):
you know, you know, Dadto take off work for two weeks and
we'd all go, you know,we go somewhere an ocean beach, usually
down the Lavalette, and we wouldgo, you know, rent one of
those crappy cottages that had no airconditioning and it was so it was one
of those and I think it wasthe last year that I had gone down
with them. Now my father wassomebody who was he was at you know,
he actually so he just died aboutsix weeks ago. But he was
(02:17):
an Air Force crew chief and pilotback in the nineteen fifties, and he
was really like into airplanes. Hewas really into flying machinery of all kinds,
and even you know, throughout hisentire life, that was like his
obsession. He just loved airplanes.And so what he did was he always
whenever we went down the shore,he would always bring his binoculars with him
(02:37):
because he was he just loved tolike see like, you know what way.
And then he'd tell me, oh, yeah, this is this kind
of a jet, or it's this, or it's that, you know,
like he was just his thing.And I remember we had gotten down there
in the evening and he was standingoutside and we stood kind of you know,
in the driveway or kind of nearthe road there, and he was
looking up at the sky and Ithought this thing that I thought was like
(02:59):
a planet, you know, likeI don't know, it was a planet
Venus or something you know, itjust looked like this star just just sitting
there in the sky, and hewas looking at it in his binoculars,
and all of a sudden he calledmy name and he said hey, he
says, come over here, andI said to him, I said,
well, you know what's up.He hands me the binoculars, he points
to it. He goes, youlook at that, and you tell me
(03:19):
what that is. So I tookthe binoculars, which I own now actually,
and I pointed them up at thesky and I looked at it,
and there's this weird looking saucer shapedobject. Now, mind you, I
am not a I'm really into thekind of ghost thing. UFOs have never
really been my thing. Okay,for him, they kind of are,
(03:39):
because he likes anything that has todo with anything that flies through the air.
That was kind of his thank soto me. It's not like I
would have been out looking for it. I never was really a big believer
in it or anything like that.I just thought, okay, you know,
it's one of those things. Butwhen I looked at this thing,
it was like, no, itwas literally your traditional. It was like
this silver It was like kind oflike that cigar shape you know that they're
(04:01):
very like loud oval shape. AndI looked at my father, I'm like,
I don't know, and he's like, you know, he's just I've
never seen anything like that either,And again he's somebody who would be much
more qualified to know what that wouldbe rather than myself of course. Yeah,
So when I looked at that,I was just like, Okay,
that's just really it was just reallykind of a creepy kind of a moment,
(04:25):
but kind of cool at the sametime, because I was like,
wow, you know, I don'tknow, maybe there is something to that,
you know, I mean, butit was just one of those really
really weird things. And I don'tremember how long it was there before,
but it sat there for a veryvery long time. It just seemed to
me. It seemed to me likewhen I looked back, you know,
ten minutes later, twenty it wasstill there, like right in the same
(04:46):
place, yeah, exactly. Andso I don't know. He didn't really
say too much more about it,other than he wanted somebody else to look
at it and kind of verify that, Okay, I'm seeing this correctly,
right like you're seeing what I'm seeingright now. So I don't know.
It was pretty weird actually, LikeI said, I think I got married
a month later, and I said, maybe they were coming to warn me
not to do that, but itwas, you know, it was you
(05:10):
know, but it was interesting.And I have to say that I've had
some other kind of weird experiences afterthat, where I've seen again things out
in the horizon that I'm like,I don't know what that is, but
that one was like very very clear, like to me, I'm not sure
if these other things I ever sawlater on were just you know, I
don't know, like I'm just misinterpretingan aircraft or something like that, but
that was something that was really reallyvery clearly fit the kind of classic UFO
(05:32):
shape and dynamic you know, ohno, one hundred percent. And you
know, any aircraft that we knowabout as civilians or even like your father,
a seasoned military professional, they don'tjust hover in one spot for over
ten minutes. This is I'm notgoing to say definitively it's not of our
world, but it's definitely not somethingthat people are used to seeing. And
(05:57):
I know we're going back a longtime, nearly thirty years, but could
you describe anything else you remember aboutit, like did it have reflective qualities?
Were there any lights on it?I can't remember seeing any lights to
me. It just looked I mean, it probably did. It was probably
just sort of you know, butI didn't see anything that would specifically say
like windows or anything like that.It was disc shaped from what I can
(06:17):
remember, and it was silver andcolor and it seemed to have kind of
like that rounded top to it.But that was about all I could see
of it through the binoculars. Butyeah, it was definitely. I just
remember it was this very, veryweird shape that I'm like, Okay,
I don't I've never seen any youknow. It's not an airplane, it's
not a helicopter. It's not nota wet or balloon, it's not you
(06:39):
know, it's not a satellite.It's just this weird thing. And yeah,
it was just hovering. It wasn'tmaking any sound, which is something
that we hear time and time again, certainly with every UFO interview that we
have conducted on this show so far. Yea, these things are always,
without exception, silent. Yeah,and that seems to add to the kind
(07:00):
of like the eerie feeling of itbecause we think of planes, you know,
even if they're going to hover,you think of like a helicopter,
Like that's probably the loudest thing inthe sky. And this you were describing
as just sitting there motionless, notmaking any sound. It just defies everything
you would expect, right, andthe fact that from the ground without the
binoculars, it did actually look kindof like a bright object, like a
planet, you know, it justthat's what it looked like. So yeah,
(07:23):
so I guess in terms of light, yes, it was kind of
from the ground it was this brightthing, but when you actually looked at
it, I didn't really see thelight in it. It just looked like
this silver object that I was like, what, you know, it was
just really really strange. Now wasthe illumination on this object in the sky?
Was this a light being refracted fromthe sun? This was actually at
(07:45):
twilight, so the sun was alreadylike gone down kind of below the It
wasn't totally below the horizon, butit wasn't being refracted. And I'm not
even sure that it was a moonthat night. I don't remember seeing one.
Do you remember what the weather waslike that night? Was like a
pretty clear night, was very clear, yes, okay, and as far
as I mean, obviously from theground, even with binoculars, you can't
(08:07):
really judge how far up or evenif it's within the atmosphere or outside the
atmosphere. But in your memory abouthow far up did you have to crane
your neck to look at it?Was it high up like the moon in
the middle of the night, orwas it closer to the horizon. I
didn't have to crane my neck.It wasn't like something way way, way,
way way far away. That said, it wasn't like really super close
(08:28):
to the horizon line. But tome, like I said, it looks
kind of like when you had likethe evening star or something like right there
in the sky and it's like reallybright and it's right there and not this
little pin point that's far away,you know what I mean, So I
imagine it's not. While wasn't superclose to the ground, I didn't feel
like it was anything like it wassuper far away either. Would it have
been within the realm of possibility thatsay, this object appeared to be within
(08:52):
the atmosphere at the same like sortof cruising altitude as you'd see a commercial
jetliner, or did it seem likeit was closer to the ground or further
away from the ground. I thinkit was lower than cruising altitude, because
cruising altitudes is usually like about thirtyeight thousand feet, right, m hmm,
Yeah, I would say it waslower than that. I guess if
I had to guess it based onthat, I'd have to say maybe twenty
(09:13):
thousand feet. Okay, it wasa little bit lower than that. Yeah.
This is such an interesting thing too, because you have the element here,
and this is something that isn't verycommon with the sightings that we've discussed,
at least on this show, isyou have the element of the binoculars
in this one. So it isalmost like, and I don't want to
assign anything ominous to this sighting,but it is like almost the perfect cover
(09:35):
because for this craft, if anyoneis looking at it on the ground with
the naked eye, they may assumewhat you would initially assumed, Oh,
it's an evening star, or it'svenus or mercury, or a handful of
other things. But the fact thatyour father happened to have the binoculars with
him and got a better look atit, it just makes it all the
more interesting. Especially since that thiswas at the very least it seemed to
(09:56):
be stationary. Yeah, exactly.And if he hadn't had binoculars and had
had his habit of looking at thatstuff, I mean, I never would
have noticed it. I never wouldhave assumed that it was anything other than
a planet. It didn't look likeanything else from the ground. But when
I saw that, I just thought, WHOA, that's really compelling, you
know, for somebody who didn't reallythink any of that really happened at all.
(10:16):
So I'm not sure if you'll beable to answer this, because you
know, it was so far awayand you're only able to see it through
binoculars, but were able to seealmost like the color of it or like
what it was made out of.Was it like transparent or was it just
kind of like a dark shape thatwas up there that looked bright. It
seemed metallic to me, Like Isaid, it was more like a silver
gray kind of a color like notsuper you know, shiny, but it
was kind of like a like adark metallic gray, is what I remember.
(10:39):
Okay, when I had the binocularson it, it didn't look as
bright to me as it did fromthe ground, So it just almost seemed
to have a duller finish when Ilooked at it through there. But that's
why I was really surprised, becauseit was just this disk that was this
very metallic ray color. Again fromwhat's burned into my memory about it and
those sort of light conditions at thebeach. I mean, I was at
(11:01):
the beach this past June, andI remember it was a very very clear
day. It wasn't at twilight,it was mid afternoon, but I just
remember looking up at the sky andbeing very struck at how clear the vantage
point was because from one end ofthe horizon to the next, because of
no light pollution, there's no skyscraperswhere I was or anything like that,
(11:22):
no mountains bordering the beach. SoI had this very clear view from one
end of the horizon to the next. And a commercial jetliner flew over,
and I just remember it caught myeye just because of the way that the
sun in conditions like that reflects offof a metallic surface, especially that high
up in the air, and it'sunmistakable. It's not like you know,
(11:43):
looking at something else that would beup there. Your eyes are looking at
something you recognize that, Oh no, that is sunlight being reflected off of
a metallic surface. It's something thatyou recognize right away. And it is
very interesting too because again, likeit defies the logic of well, it
could have been a plane like theone that I just described to you,
because it wasn't moving, Which leadsme to my next question, what ultimately
(12:09):
happened to it? Was it theclassic thing where it zipped off into some
other realm or did it fade away? Did it just in the blink of
an eye vanished? What ultimately happenedto it? That's actually a good question.
I don't remember, like seeing whatthe finale was, if you will,
so I don't know if it didfly off, But it just seems
to me that it was there,and that at another point when I looked,
(12:33):
it just wasn't there. So Idon't know. My inclination would be
to say that it sort of justfaded out and it just wasn't there anymore.
But I can't swear that that's actuallywhat happened, because I didn't see
where it went to. Like Isaid, I watched it for a while
and it just seemed like it wasthere for you know, you know how
it is with time. You know, you think, oh, it's a
really long time, but you know, just because your arms are tired and
(12:54):
your board of standing there with somebinoculars, you know, yeah, five
minutes could seem like, you know, a half an hour. But I
think my father watched it for sometime after that, and I don't know,
I want to say that again,this is just more of a feeling
than an exact time thing. ButI just kind of feel like it was
maybe there for about a half anhour and then it was just not there.
Well, even if it was onlythere for five minutes as opposed to
a half an hour, that's stillmore than enough time to judge if it's
(13:18):
moving or not. You know,it only takes a matter of seconds,
especially with the aid of binoculars,to determine if an object in the sky
is moving towards you, away fromyou, to the left, to the
right. No, this thing wasstationary, and then for it to just
be gone a moment later is verystrange. You know. It's not one
of these things where it's like,oh, okay, well it eventually moved
(13:39):
far away off into the distance andwe lost track of it. I mean,
it still could have just zipped offand you and your father could have
blinked and missed it. But thefact that something sat there that long and
then suddenly was no longer there againhints to some sort of technology that we
do not necessarily have, at leastpublicly on this planet. Yeah, exactly.
(14:03):
And to me, I almost wonder, like when I see that's something
like that where, you know,because like I said, I've seen things
not exactly like that, but Ihave seen other things, you know,
on the horizon where I live nowin Hunter and County, and it's like,
it just seems like it's there.It's just sitting there in the sky,
and then all of a sudden it'sjust gone. And I'm always like,
is it like disappearing into another dimensionor something. It's just I don't
(14:24):
know, it's very strange to me. Well, it definitely could be if
you believe in the theory that thesecrafts or whatever they are are using the
aid of wormholes to go between locationsin the universe. So who knows where
they're coming from, where they're going, how they get there. And I
think that's why these stories really capturethe imagination of the public at large,
(14:50):
because it is ultimately unanswerable, andfor so many decades, either you believed
in it or it was laughed off. But I mean, Michael, we've
discussed this several times on the show. Now, ever since that bombshell report
by the government was eighteen months agosomething like that, acknowledging that, you
know, the military, we've beenwatching this stuff for a long time,
(15:11):
and even with all of the advancedtechnology that we have now, they cannot
pinpoint what this stuff is, tothe point that they've even changed the nomenclature.
It's no longer UFO, it's whatis it UAB or something a UAP
unidentified aerial phenomenon. Yeah, forthe government to actually come out and admit
this stuff and release some of thesevideos that are taken with I believe infrared.
(15:35):
Either way, it's footage taken onUnited States military aircraft showing these things
moving the way that no aircraft thatwe know of, or even spacecraft designed
by NASA can move within the atmosphere. It's just I wonder what we're going
to know twenty years from now.Because as a kid growing up in the
early nineties watching all the Discovery Channelspecials about Area fifty one and Roswell and
(15:58):
the the government refuses to acknowledge anyof this, and now they're talking about
it and backing it up with video. I can only wonder where it's going
to go from here. Yeah,you know what I find interesting too,
Like I think about my father asan air force man, okay, and
again, very practical, very downto earth. I mean, he was
not you know, this is aguy who was not spiritual. He was
not really like, he didn't haveany kind of He was like one of
(16:21):
the most down to earth people you'dever know. And so for him,
you know, the fact that hewas very fascinated with that and seemed to
be very convinced of their existence.You know, I often kind of wondered,
I'm like, okay, well,as a guy who you know,
works on airplanes and stuff like that, I mean I often wonder if,
you know, because he wasn't nevermuch of a talker either, But I
just don't know there was something thathe ever experienced to make him feel that
(16:45):
way while he was in the military, you know what I mean. Yeah,
I mean that's all speculation, butit was just something I always wondered
about, you know, And Ithink about that. Yeah, now that
they're saying that, Yeah, there'syou know, I imagine there's probably a
lot of pilots and a lot ofmilitary who see this kind of stuff,
and you know, they were justkind of like, yeah, don't don't
report that, don't talk about that, you know. And that's what I
wanted to bring up next too,because even though this happened in nineteen ninety
(17:07):
four, if you're a career AirForce pilot, engineer, anything, you
know, down to the guy thatmops the floors, all the way up
to you know, join chiefs ofstaff, you didn't talk about that stuff
even in the nineties, which wasfour decades into UFO's being in the public
consciousness five I think because Kenneth Arnoldwas nineteen forty seven, I believe,
(17:30):
so, yeah, fifty years eventhen, you did not talk about seeing
strange things in the sky when youwere working for the Air Force. So
much so that Michael, have youseen the nineteen ninety four Michigan UFO episode
of Unsolved Mysteries that just dropped?I have? That is actually a really
great episode that might have been myfavorite of the New Bunch. Yeah,
(17:51):
and look at the meteorologist in Michigan, Jack Bushong just your run of the
mill meteorologist in a little Michigan area. He was practically, for all intents
and purposes, forced out of hisjob because he acknowledged seeing these things on
radar during official communication with a policeofficer, and even that with that much
providence to back up a sighting likethat, he was still run out of
(18:15):
his job and run out of Michigan. He had to take a job.
And I believe Georgia and even now, like government agencies, if you work
for him, like, they don'twant to be known as the agency that
like condones UFO work basically, Sothere's just everyone is going to want to
distance themselves professionally from those claims andyou know, those sightings and stuff like
that. So there's still like that, like Jesse's hinting at, like that
(18:37):
ostracition that comes from yeah, whichagain just further underlines why I believe everyone
out there and I'm not saying peopleshould panic about this or anything, that
everyone out there should be taking thatreport from the government about these unidentified aerial
phenomenon very seriously. This is thesame government that did not encourage people to
(19:00):
speak up about seeing these things,whether they were commercial airline pilots, to
civilians, to military officials, andnow they're finally acknowledging it and releasing video
evidence to back it up. Idon't know what their end game is by
releasing the stuff. I don't knowif their hand was forced through the Freedom
of Information Act. I mean,not that that's ever really stopped these people
before, But it is very interestinghow much UFO culture is evolving this decade.
(19:26):
Again, I've said it before,I will be very, very curious
to see what we will know twentyyears from now. I mean, look
how long it took them to acknowledgethat there was even a base at Groom
Lake. Now, of course theysay Area fifty one, Oh no,
it's a band and nothing's there anymore. But yet they still have guards there
saying like, hey, you crossedthis ridge, we can shoot you and
(19:47):
get away with it. So,yeah, Breeze, did your kind of
like thinking of UFOs and that typeof stuff. Did that change after this
incident? Well? Yeah, Imean it was something. I can't say
it was something that became like anew obsession for me or anything, but
it did make me think that,okay, there could be something to this.
My whole approach to UFOs and actuallyto anything that you might think of
(20:10):
the say, paranormal. I've alwaysbeen the type of person who, you
know, while I'm not just likesort of like, yeah, I believe
everything that I hear, at thesame time, I also acknowledge that there's
a whole lot out there that isnot. I mean, as an academic,
okay, yeah, I'm obviously traineda certain way and to think a
certain way, But I'm also perfectlyaware that the kinds of methods that we
(20:32):
use to determine what we think ofas factual or truthful don't always necessarily apply
in anomalist situations. They only applyin predictable situations, you know, where
you cause an effect and you canalways determine a repeatable result on something,
And this is the kind of stuffthat falls outside of that. And to
me, I find all of thatvery fascinating, and I feel like that's
just a piece of things that peopletry to pretend, you know, kick
(20:53):
under the rug and try to say, well, yeah, it's probably just
people making it up. It's probablyfake, it's probably this. So I
think, if anything, it justkind of says to me, whatever it
actually is, whether it's actually aliens, whether it's some kind of interdimensional thing.
Honestly, after I've been to Ireland, I fully believe at this point
in sort of interdimensional kinds of stuffor you know, bendings of time and
space and stuff like that. Idon't know. I have a much different
(21:15):
attitude on it over the years,but that particular incident, Yeah, that
was probably the first time that Iactually thought about the idea that there could
be something potentially out there, whetherit's there or whether like some people say,
whether you're coming from under the earth, like under the water or something.
You know, there's I've seen awhole bunch of theories since that time,
(21:36):
and it just seems to me whilewhile some of them seem far fetched,
I mean, there's also other onesthat I'm like, well, I
don't know, we don't know,and I wouldn't discount it. It's a
very healthy attitude to take because thereseems to be a perception among more skeptical
people that in order to believe inthe existence or the possibility of extraterrestrial life
(21:57):
or being visited by extraterrestrial aircraft,spacecraft, whatever you want to call it,
means that you have to accept everythingin the lore and every reported sighting
and it's just not true. Imean, I'm a believer. I believe
in these things. I've seen thingswith my own eyes that I cannot explain.
But I can also sit here andconfidently say that a good eighty to
(22:18):
ninety percent of the popularly reported UFOsightings that have stuck around in paranormal culture
for whatever reason are dudes in theirbackyard with a polaroid that threw a hubcap
in the air, or people withtheir low resolution camcorder seeing a helicopter in
the air and thinking it's a flyingsaucer because it looks weird in the cloud.
(22:41):
Stuff like that. You look ata lot of these old photos that
were you know, in Project blueBook and even on stuff like Unsolved Mysteries
and Sightings. Sightings is one ofthose shows from back then that no one
talks about anymore, but that wasa big one in the zeitgeist at the
time, and you go on YouTubeand watch old UFO episodes of sightings and
(23:02):
it's like, that's a fucking hubcap. So yeah, you gotta be reasonable
with stuff like that when you havephenomenon that is so unexplainable and defies such
logic and convention. You have totreat everything on a case by case basis.
Of course, there's people out theretrying to make a name for themselves
with these sightings and thinking, youknow, well, I'm gonna get a
(23:25):
book deal, and you know,I'm gonna be like Travis Wallton and get
a movie made about me, oryou know, whatever their motivations may be.
There are frauds out there, butthere are also things like again the
Michigan incident, where there's just somuch corroboration between radar police, sixty different
counties calling in emergency services to reportit, and even smaller microcosms of things
(23:47):
like that, like your experience withyour father, a trained Air Force officer
who observed it. So those arethe things that really need to make people
pause and not be so skeptical.Like I always laugh at people when they
don't know the aliens fly. UFOsnotes, it's impossible, is it in
(24:08):
an infinite universe? That yeah,the universe is a really big place.
It's a really big place. Andgoing back to what you were saying before
about could it be alternate, multipledimensions and stuff like that, of course
that's possible. The brightest and bestastrophysicists. You want to stump one,
ask them, where does the universebegin an end? They don't have an
(24:29):
answer for it. It's nonsensical,the concept of the universe as it is,
anti matter, all this stuff.It defies what our brains have been
hardwired through evolution to accept as understandable. And yet we're still here experiencing these
things. Yeah, well that's definitelytrue, you know, when I think
about it, I mean just thinkingabout it from my own profession, from
the own field that I that Iwork in, which has to do with,
(24:51):
you know, archetypes and psychology.Because one of the big theories about
UFOs is like that there are acontinuation of things like fairies or things like
that, like aliens or the nexthorizon, the next thing that we don't
know about, and this is thebeing that we attached to it or something
like that. But I don't know. I only feel like with these things
there's some kind of a reality toit as well. It's not, you
know, it's not simply that.I mean, I've heard material scientists.
(25:15):
I had got listened to a Societyfor Psychical Research talk by this guy who
was a material scientist from Cambridge butthey lived in China talking about I mean,
this is completely different time. Buthe was just talking about how he
had four wisdoms. He's taken outlike in an hour with no anesthesia.
And he's like, how did thisguy do this? But you know that
was his whole thing. And theguy says, oh, yeah, I
use a mantra. Well you know, okay, but literally doesn't sound possible.
(25:37):
He's like, but he did it. And I'm like, so his
point was just are we looking atthe universe the right way? He's like,
we're always looking at everything in termsof matter. Maybe we need to
look in terms of like units ofconsciousness, and maybe at different types of
places and different types of consciousness.Maybe there's different laws that it functions.
And he'd written this up for apeer reviewed article and it was just a
really interesting idea that we always tendto think of things in terms of the
(25:59):
matter of the universe when we say, yes, but you know this can't
happen because of this, and notbecause we look at everything in such these
very strict concrete material terms. Butmaybe that's not the way to look at
it. Yeah, Well, eventhinking about just time itself. Like we
think of things in a very linearlike everything starts at midnight and ends at
midnight frame of you. But youknow, space doesn't really work that way.
Like if you go out into space, time operates differently and there's different
(26:22):
things to you know, just gettinginto space and time. It's almost confusing.
It hurts my brain to think about. But just I always write it
off as time is a human conceptand that's about as serious as we should
take it. Yeah, exactly,it's the arrow of time. Yeah,
and they've talked about how that's anillusion. Yeah, space and time are
absolutely an illusion, but that's justhow we experience things, and we don't.
We experience everything that's measured, youknow, we measure everything. Yeah.
(26:45):
Well the interesting thing too is Imean it kind of touches upon what
you had mentioned just a few momentsago. But it also it addresses another
criticism of the UFO zeitgeist of ohwell, it's just the current like sort
of sad thing or oh you know, well that grew out of post World
War two paranoia and all that,but it's really not that much of a
(27:07):
modern phenomenon. I mean, oneof the things that always really freaked me
out, especially when I was akid, and you know, cracking open
the Old Time Life books about theparanormal or watching stuff like In Search of
with Leonard Nimoy. Was all ofthe cave paintings that have been discovered through
the years, showing things that looklike your classic gray aliens, things that
(27:29):
resemble sasquatch or even the moth Man. There are certain cave paintings and even
examples of Native American artwork that resemblethe classic cryptozoology designs that we've become familiar
with in the late twentieth and earlytwenty first century. So this stuff isn't
as new as a lot of jadedpeople want to say. I mean,
granted, these paintings were made byearly humans who were afraid of what the
(27:55):
sun did. But still you lookat some of these designs and you go,
what were they seeing? And werethey seeing things that are too different
than what we're experiencing now. Someof those paintings are really talking. They're
bizarre, they're very eerie. Haveyou seen the now listeners, You'll have
to forgive me if this has beendebunked in the thirty years since I saw
(28:15):
these appear on a Discovery Channel documentary. But they were these I don't know
if they were carved out of goldor something similar, but they were like
these little I guess they were toys. I want to say they were done
by the Aztecs. And one ofthem looked like a seven fifty seven jumbo
jet carved out of gold or woodor whatever it was. And they're like,
no, this is hundreds of yearsold, but it looks like something
(28:37):
Boeing made, Like I remember seeingsomething like that, and it always sort
of tied into that one theory that'sout there that maybe these aren't extra terrestrial,
Maybe these are cumans from thousands millionsof years down the road time traveling
back, and that's why we're seeingthese modern looking things and cave paintings and
trinkets and toys made by quote unquoteprimitive cultures. I don't know. It's
(29:02):
all so strange and weird, andI guess that's why we're sitting here talking
about it. Yeah, it's likeour brains are trying to figure out reason,
but sometimes there just is none,so we just end up, you
know, talking about it and theorizing, and it really gets the imagination going.
Well, that's it you can onlyspeculate, and that's yeah, that's
always been my thing. Reason.I mean, reason is obviously a very
useful tool, but it only goesso far with some of the stuff.
(29:25):
And that's where it gets interesting,because it becomes it's like a pump.
I'm looking it up right now.It's got a name. It's I'm going
to butcher the pronunciation of this.I think it's called the Kimbaya artifact.
When you see it, you mightknow what I'm talking about because it's so
bizarre looking. I thought on aprogram once. It definitely is familiar to
(29:48):
me, but I can't remember ifit's something that they had debunked or not
that I cannot remember, yeah,because they always have, Like you know,
there's a ninety percent chance with allthese cool discoveries that two weeks later
they're like, oh, yeah,it' psych now it's a fraud. Like
I remember when I was in highschool, there was that huge controversy with
the Ossuary of James when they hadsaid, no, we found the bone
(30:08):
box of Jesus's brother James, becausethey found some old box made out of
stone that said James, brother ofJesus on it, and they were like
this proves Jesus was real, Andof course, like a month later they're
like, not, it's fake.So coming from my point of view,
I'm like, yeah, definitely fake. But yeah, I do remember that
too. Yeah, you have toalways be careful with artifacts, as you
(30:29):
never know if the hoax or not. Yeah, just like the I'm not
sure if it's been definitive or not. Dan Ackwright will be very disappointed if
it is proven to be a hoax. But from what I understand, I
think the Crystal skulls ended up beinga load of bullshit too, But I
don't have the paperwork in front ofme. Listeners, you'll have to forgive
me. I know a lot ofpeople who are into the whole Crystal skull
thing, and I'm like kind oflike, I don't know, I'm not
(30:52):
particularly impressed by that myself. Yeah, they're undeniably cool, but not really
paranormal. Yeah. Yeah, No, if you're like a nerd like me
or like Zach Began's and like youhave these ideas of like I want to
be like the paranormal Indiana Jones andhave a shelf full of cool things,
like this is a haunted doll Igot from a voodoo tribe and this is
(31:14):
a crystal skull from the Aztecs,Like, yeah, that's awesome, but
if it's made up by some dunein California in the fifties, like yeah,
that sucks. And that shit washappening a lot in the fifties and
the sixties, people like carving somebullshit in their garage and like dumping it
off at an excavation site and beinglike, see, look, this is
a proof of something that I'm tryingto sell and get rich off of.
(31:37):
And unfortunately, a lot of peoplefell for those things, and it cast
a lot of doubt on the fieldof research. And I'm not going to
try and get all high and mightyand be like, you know, the
field of paranormal studies should be takenas seriously as oncology. Like no,
at the end of the day,it's a cool, unanswerable question that leads
(31:57):
to interesting conversation like we're having rightnow. But it definitely made it a
lot easier for people to roll theireyes at these conversations. And I fear
that we're getting back to that witha lot of this paranormal reality television garbage
that's out there, like I thinkit's setting us back well. And you
know what you got to think abouttoo, is the fact that, like,
okay, do you think about whatphotography was Like, people take photographs
(32:22):
that are supposed to prove, sothey've seen certain phenomenon, whether it's ghosts,
UFOs whatever, And now, ofcourse with all the tools that we
have with digital photography, people go, oh, yeah, let's probably say.
And the way that they faked thingsback then was so ridiculous too.
Like I remember when I was Idon't want to say I was a toddler.
I was probably like maybe five orsix. There was this movie that
(32:42):
came out that was about what wasit in Ireland or Scotland or England one
of the UK countries that guy atthe turn of the century claimed that he
had taken photos of his daughters withfairies in them. Yeah, and the
movie the way that the movie didit with special effects and all this stuff.
Like I remember watching the movie beinglike because my sisters were really into
it, and I remember seeing itand I was like, holy shit,
(33:06):
someone got pictures of fairies and likeI went to the public library the next
day and saw like the actual photosand it's like they're holding up piece as
a cardboard that someone drew fair Theseare drawings and like apparently there were enough
people in the UK at the timelike I, oh my gold day.
She's proof that, like we're stillremembering it and like they made a movie
(33:27):
ninety years later about it, whenit's just like, how did this shit
fool anyone? And also that's likeif anybody knows anything about fairy lore,
I mean, you know, thelittle cute see Victorian fairies. It's like
angels. You know, people arelike, oh, look at these cute
little bit I'm like, no,they're they're not cute. They're nasty.
You know, they're scary. They'relike ten feet tall and would scare the
crap out of you, just likeangels, like they've got a million eyes
(33:49):
and like you know, foreheads,yet like they're not. I made myself
an authentic angel treetop for one year. My mom, pull the hell's up,
I'm coping angels and you ever readthe But yeah, yeah, if
they're not, they're not. Ifsomebody's showing you that, and like,
yeah, that's the thing that struckme as pretty eerie was if you look
at the artist representation of the biblicallyaccurate angel, the one with all the
(34:14):
owl wings and the way that itdoesn't seem to have a head but it
has legs. If you look atthat and you compare it with like the
original eyewitness pencil sketch of one ofthe first Mothman witnesses, Roger and Linda
Scarberry, the ones that were ridingin the car past the teen t area
and saw it. Yeah, thesimilarities between those two are very striking.
(34:35):
And now I'm not trying to saylike the Mothman is a Biblical angel,
but it did strike me as kindof eerie, especially when you consider the
whole Silver Bridge collapsing and people wonderinglike, was the Mothman a quote unquote
angel of doom, an angel ofdeath? Was it there to warn it?
Did it cause the bridge collapse?It's just like, if you know
about the actual biblical description of angelsand then you look at those eyewitness sketches,
(34:59):
it is a little unsettling. ButI had actually even thought about that.
Yeah, well yeah, and thething about the biblical angels too,
is just that well, supposedly twothose were actually if you look at ancient
Babylonians, some of their like wingedkind of intermediary creatures, they also look
remarkably similar and very likely of courseit was copied from there. But that
(35:20):
whole thing I mean of the intermediaryyou know, really it comes down to
angles and demons. Really harn't anydifferent. But yeah, some people get
upset with me that that is afact. I mean, they're they're intermediaries.
That's the whole idea, that theykind of mediate between you and something
else. That's what they're supposed tobe anyway. Well, their visual representation
is also so cemented with European likethe Romance period in art, like the
(35:45):
whole like the vision of the archangelMichael and all that stuff like that's all
rooted with Leonardo da Vinci and hispaintings of it, you know, which
he used himself as a model ofLike how modest of him. But yeah,
if you look at the other culturesand their winged creatures and stuff like
that, they all seem to beunited in being different from that. You
(36:07):
look at like the thunderbird in NativeAmerican culture and all these other ones,
and it's more animalistic and strange asopposed to Oh, look at this gorgeous
Aryan with his dove wings and hisgreat shield of armor. It's just linked
to the art of the time.And that's another thing that has made bullshit
(36:27):
meters for lack of a better term, much more effective as time has gone
on, because you can weed outa lot of those fake UFO reports and
sightings from the forties, fifties,and sixties by seeing like how quickly these
crafts fall out of fashion, Likethey don't look like stuff from the day
the Earth stood still anymore. Youknow, it's not a hubcap in the
(36:49):
sky, like I said. Andthat's once you get into the eighties and
the nineties. That's when you getinto the more like the cigar shaped craft
or the lights that start in acluster and then eventually random eyes and stuff
like that. And those are theones that I tend to take more seriously
because they're not romanticized. They're notlike, oh yeah, no, it's
just like in a movie, andit acted just like a movie, Like
(37:10):
I like sightings like yours, whereit's like no, like you know,
you would think like, oh yeah, no, we saw you know,
zip across the sky at speeds thatwe can't even dream of approaching. No,
you saw something that hovered around twentythousand feet for several minutes, and
that is not something a human aircraftcan do, right, Yeah, it
(37:31):
was. It was definitely strange.And I remember there was that show which
has kind of gone downhill unfortunately.I know Mark and Marks and Weird New
Jersey were on it that paranormal caughton camera, Yeah, which is kind
of a but I remember somebody hadsubmitted a video of this thing that just
looked like it almost looks like it'skind of like it's like that. It
reminded me of those cat toys thatyou know, you throw and they like
(37:51):
they make the rainbow lights to comeoff of them, but it's just like
in the sky and it was therefor a long time, and I've seen
something like that in Hampton where Ilive. I looked out and I was
like, what the heck is that? And it hovered there for a very
long time until it disappeared, andI was like, that's really weird.
And then my friend told me,she's like, oh, yeah, it
was on nextdoor dot com. Somebodysaw it more in County two and I'm
like, well, I don't knowwhat that was. But again, I
(38:13):
didn't get a really good look atit, So I'm kind of like,
I don't know that that's what itwas, but it was just weird,
you know. Yeah. And Imean now in modern times, like we
have commercial drones, military drones,and even like the little ones that you
could buy a Walmart for twenty orthirty dollars, but they can't go twenty
thousand feet up in the air andjust sit there for a half hour.
Physics does not work like that.It just doesn't, no, And they
(38:37):
make noise to those drones. Imean, even if it's just like a
hum, they make a noise,you know. Yeah. Before we wrap
up for tonight, you had mentioned, of course that you, in addition
to writing papers and stuff like that, that you have books out and of
course your podcast. Can you tellour listeners where they can find all things
you My podcast is called Katonia andthat's spelled chta O ni A, and
(39:01):
I talk about what I call thedark feminine because my specialty has to do
with the underworld and different conceptions ofthe underworld and particularly female figures like goddesses
things like that that are connected withthe underworld. So that tends to be
my focus. And Katonia Dot netis my is my website, and my
podcast is hosted on spreaker. Ialso do a video version of it on
(39:23):
YouTube on the Katonia channel, andI have, yeah, the books I'm
working on, I mean, allmy books are on Katonia dot net.
I'm currently working on a book fortheon publishing on the goddess, the Irish
Goddess Morgan, which is called PhantomQueen, and that's actually a nonfiction book.
So that's a new thing that we'llbe coming out in twenty twenty four.
(39:45):
And you know, I've got severalother new things in the works,
but yeah, that's the main thingright now. That's where most of my
creative output, podcast and writing outputis a Katonia dot net. Excellent and
we can't thank you enough for joiningus tonight, and we will. I'd
love to have you back on becauseI know you have had further brushes with
the paranormal and even aside from that, with your expertise with the lore of
(40:07):
the underworld, especially the female characterswithin a lot of mythology pertaining to that.
I would love to have a discussionabout the origins of Lilith and her
connection with sort of modern vampire lorebecause we're seeing a lot of resurgence in
that, especially in quote unquote gothculture now, So I think it would
(40:29):
be interesting to actually get back tothe roots of all that and talk about
that, because I've always found thatvery fascinating. The whole Adam had a
first wife portion of it. Imean, you know, that's a whole
other thing we can get into.But yeah, we would definitely love to
have you come back on and talkabout that. Yeah, I doesn't love
to do that. Yeah, andthanks so much for coming on. Yeah,
Hey, thanks a lot. Michael'sgot to meet you virtually, and
(40:50):
yeah, and I'll hopefully talk toyou guys soon. Yeah, hopefully we'll
chat soon. Explorers of the Unexplained, thank you for joining us on yet
another journey through the mysteries of theparanormal. Keep seeking the truth beyond the
veil, and until our next encounter, may the unknown always spark your imagination.
I'm Jesse and I'm Michael and thisis Unknown Horizon, signing off across
(41:38):
across the Ash show heard the mostsong and Rush Gus from Rush Sure again
(42:06):
and they share you once. Marswas filed almost in to the Vegas second
show that comes so far this,as long as it's just going stand
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