0107 | Oh, God

Season finale.

This episode was written, researched, edited, and produced by Josh Hallmark

Featuring:
Eric Carter-Landin from True Consequences and Crimelines & Consequences
Albert Perkins

Resources:

• Religiosity and Attitudes Toward Lesbians and Gay Men: A Meta-Analysis by Bernard E. Whitley Jr.
• How Religiosity Shapes Rejection of Homosexuals Across the Globe by Dirk-Jan Janssen
• The New York Times
• The Harvard Political Review
• The National Institutes for Health
• The National Institues for Health
• The American Psychological Association
• The Harvard University Press
• The Hill
• The Trevor Project
• The Human Rights Campaign

This is a Studio BOTH/AND production: bothand.fyi
For an ad-free experience: patreon.com/studiobothand

Music by: Adi Goldstein
Featured music by: Frank Ocean

Episode Transcript

(00:09):
This is a studio both and production. You can't explore the culture and anthropology

(00:32):
of homosexuality without discussing religion, whichis a bit of a Pandora's box.
Identity and religion are perhaps the twomost deeply personal and sensitive topics a person
can hold close or discuss, butreligion has played a huge part in how

(00:53):
gay people have been treated, howgay people continue to be treated, and
somewhat surprisingly in gay culture itself.And I thought my friend Eric carter Landin,
the host of the True Consequences podcastand co host of the Crime Lines
and Consequences podcast, was the perfectperson to discuss this with. I realized

(01:15):
that I liked boys pretty early on. I think I had crushes on boys
when I was probably like three orfour, and I didn't really know what
being gay was back then. Itwasn't something that was really talked about,
So I think it wasn't until Ihit puberty that I really started to understand

(01:36):
my attraction to the same sex andstarted to kind of grapple with the concept
of being gay and trying to stilllive in my very religious household. Tell
me how your religious household influenced yourcoming out but also your ongoing relationship with

(01:57):
being gay. It was really hard, you know. I was very connected
with my spirituality, or what Ithought was my spirituality at that time.
I was raised in the church andmy dad was a Pentecostal evangelist. So
it's like the fire and brimstone,and being gay is absolutely not okay.

(02:21):
It is the probably the worst possiblething that you can be, at least
as it pertains to the kind ofsermons that I listened to growing up.
And I would pray every single dayfrom probably eleven until seventeen to that God
would make me straight. And whenI turned seventeen, I realized that I

(02:46):
had my answer, because nothing happened, nothing changed, And so I was
actually outed by my cousin, whois also very religious and was What he
told me was that he felt likehe was intervening in my life to save

(03:06):
me from damnation. So he toldeverybody that I was gay, and I
was outed. I lived in avery small, very conservative town, and
that caused a lot of problems forme. People really started to kind of
mess with me, and I gotthrown out of my house. I was

(03:27):
living on the streets for a while, so there was a lot of things
happening along with coming out, Butat the same time, like all this
tragedy and terrible stuff is happening,I'm really starting to like find myself and
embrace who I am and love myselfand accept myself and start disclosing, you
know, my sexuality to some friends. So it was a very kind of

(03:52):
up and down, tumultuous time.How do you reconcile? I guess the
upbringing and indoctrination of gay is badwith the bad experiences in many senses,
losing your family because you were gay, with then developing an identity and a

(04:14):
fulfillment around being gay. Because Ifeel quite in conflict. Well, at
that point, it was more likeit didn't matter anymore. I didn't have
to hide it. I already knewwithin myself before I was outed that I
was going to come out and Iwas going to live my life as a
gay man, and I was goingto choose to be happy rather than choosing

(04:39):
to force myself into something that wasn'tfor me, that didn't work for me.
So I think I just resolved that, like, if this is it,
if my family doesn't want to evertalk to me again, then that's
fine. Like I'll go find otherpeople and they will be my family,
and I'll make my own way ifI have to, because it wasn't an
option for me to go back tothat. And even when my mom came

(05:02):
back to me and apologized and askedme to come back home, I told
her like, it's we're not goingback to me being in the closet,
Like this is just who I am. So if you want me back home,
like this is who you're going toget, and you can either like
that or not, right, So, I think there was like this very
liberating thing that happened by being outed, even though it was an ideal,

(05:28):
even though like my choice to comeout was taken away from me, I
felt very emboldened to pursue my lifebecause there was literally nothing in my way
at that point. And what wasdating like dating? Well, this was
before any of the apps, Thiswas before any online dating. It would

(05:54):
be like sneaking into the gay bar, mostly as an underage person and drinking
and dancing and having a good timeand meeting people that way. There was
obviously like call lines chat lines backthen that people would use. That was
like the precursor to the apps.And so I met people. I think

(06:16):
through there sometimes, but mostly itwas through the gay bars that was kind
of like the place where you couldfeel safe enough to be yourself in the
nineties and not have to worry andfeel comfortable talking to people about being gay,
and you felt safe in that kindof community. Yeah, it was
the first time that I didn't haveto hide who I was or pretend to

(06:36):
be something else. Did you feellike with other gay men there was a
brotherhood or that people were looking outfor each other. Yeah. I think
this is kind of a phrase thatisn't used anymore, but often you would
get asked are you family? Areyou family? And at first I thought

(06:59):
that was really weird, But thenas I kind of got immersed in the
community, I felt like, no, this is this is family. These
are people who get it. Theseare people who understand what it's like to
grow up in a tiny town andto be bullied your entire life and to
be told that your existence is awfuland you should die. So like,
there was that camaraderie that comes fromthat understanding, and a lot of the

(07:24):
pretense kind of falls away in thatsituation because you're like, no, I
can just fully be myself and I'llbe accepted. According to a study by
radbud University sociology professor doctor Jan Johnsontitled how Religiosity shapes rejection of homosexuals across

(07:47):
the globe, religiosity appears to beone of the strongest socializing determinants to explain
rejection of homosexuality. This relationship isbased on the premise that indi visuals moral
attitudes are adopted via exposure to socializingagents. In this respect religious institutions.

(08:09):
Although most religions emphasize that people shouldrespect others, most religions tend to categorize
homosexuality as something unnatural or impure.A study conducted by Bernardi Whitley, Junior
Emeritus Professor of Psychology science at balUniversity titled Religiosity and Attitudes toward Lesbians and

(08:33):
gay Men. A meta analysis,which was published in the two thousand nine
issue of the International Journal for Psychologyof Religion, panalyzed sixty four studies which
examined the relationship between religion and homosexuality. Here are some very high level findings
from that study. One possible mediatorof the relationship between religiosity and attitudes towards

(08:56):
lesbians and gay men is the extentto which people believe that homosexuality is controllable,
changeable, or a matter of choice. Editors note it is not.
In general, if people believe thata stigma is under the control of the
stigmatized person and therefore changeable and amatter of choice, the more negative the

(09:18):
attitude they will hold toward the stigmatizedperson. Homosexuality is one of the stigmas
to which this principle applies. Manyreligious authorities, especially those who are more
conservative, tend to portray homosexuality asa matter of choice and thus controllable and
changeable. As a result, peoplewho report hearing about homosexuality in church are

(09:43):
more likely than those who do notto perceive homosexuality as controllable. Not surprisingly,
then, several studies have found perceptionsof homosexuality as contro changeable or a
matter of choice. To mediate therelationship between religious and negative attitudes towards lesbians
and gay men, It goes onto say, another factor associated with multiple

(10:07):
forms of prejudice is perceived threat.The greater the extent to which in group
members believe that an outgroup poses athreat to the in group, the more
negative the attitudes towards the outgroup.This principle applies not only to threats of
physical harm, but also to threatsof important in group values. Lesbians and
gay men are frequently portrayed as violatingimportant American values and are perceived as threatening

(10:33):
those values because people who are religiousmay be especially sensitive to threats to their
values. The greater the extent towhich they perceive lesbians and gay men as
threatening those values, the more likelythey are to hold more negative attitudes toward
them. And Finally, the resultsof the meta analysis supported the hypothesis that
religiosity would be related to religiously permittedtargets of prejudice lesbians and gay men,

(10:58):
but not to a religiously prescribed targetof prejudice race ethnicity. This finding is
surprising given that different forms of prejudicetend to be correlated. For example,
people who score high on measures ofracial ethnic prejudice also tend to score high
on prejudice against lesbians and gay men. Based on this relationship, one would

(11:18):
expect that a given predictor variable wouldshow similar correlations with different forms of prejudice.
It is especially striking, therefore,that the meta analysis found intrinsic orientation
and endorsement of Christian Orthodoxy to becorrelated with positive racial ethnic attitudes, but
to be correlated with negative attitudes towardslesbians and gay men. This difference clearly

(11:41):
illustrates the distinction between proscribed and permittedprejudice, and comment that religion can both
make and unmake prejudice. So howdid we get here? According to the

(12:01):
American Psychology Association, homosexuality has beendocumented in every culture across the globe,
and it can be traced as farback as ancient Greece and ancient Israel.
In ancient Greece, it was commonamong both men and women. Indigenous peoples
in the Americas and East Africa hadrevered terms for homosexuals, but depending on

(12:24):
varying interpretations of the Old Testament,homosexuality was denounced by the Judaic and Christian
depictions of God, interpretations that manyscholars have since been able to negate.
Homophobia became widespread in conjunction with therise of Christianity and the invasions in and
expansion into the West, Northern Africa, and the South Pacific. The indigenous

(12:48):
acceptance and often reverence for two spiritpeople or same sex love appalled European colonizers
who rejected any practice's behaviours or beliefsthat weren't consistent with their own male and
female roles. Men were to presentand behave in a masculine way. Women
were to present and behave in afeminine way, whatever the fuck that means.

(13:13):
In fact, it was during thattime that the first documented death sentence
was committed against homosexual activity in fifteensixty six, when Spanish colonizers executed a
French settler in the Great State ofFlorida. And as the greater world was
colonized by European Christians, homosexuality wasshunned or criminalized across ancient cultures that once

(13:39):
revered it, and homophobia began tospread, and in a very reductive conclusion,
here we are today. Religious andgovernmental persecution of gaze, which happened
in conjunction and collaboration, has continuedto strip gay people of their etona identity,

(14:01):
community and safety for way over fivehundred years, and in some places
with little to no abatement. Asof this recording, laws explicitly provide for
the death penalty of sex between consentingadults of the same sex. In eight
nations. In five countries there isunclear law around whether homosexuality a criminalized act,

(14:22):
is punishable by death. In fiftyfour countries, people can be imprisoned
for homosexuality, and four nations practicewhat is essentially a don't ask, don't
tell law. And while ironically enough, many Western nations have progressed in their
attitudes toward homosexuality, as of thisrecording, there are still only thirty eight

(14:46):
countries that have legalized gay marriage,sixteen fewer than those who legally permit the
imprisonment of gays, and even herein the United States, there has been
an abundance of new and inactive antiLGBTQ legislation, and even in liberal Seattle,
just last week, three gay barswere rated by police. And all

(15:11):
of this matters because it contributed to, if not created, an environment for
the crimes of Lorenzo and Schweikert andmany many others who targeted the gay community
to flourish. In circling back tomy conversation with Eric, I'm struck by
a few things. One, justabout every gay person I know, myself

(15:31):
included personally, know someone who diedby suicide because of gay persecution, most
often because of familial or religious persecution. According to the Trevor Project, LGBTQ
plus young people are four times morelikely to attempt suicide than their peers,

(15:52):
and more than one point eight millionyoung LGBTQ plus people seriously consider suicide each
year in the US alone. Two, about half of the gay men I
know fled the areas where they wereraised, where their families are in order
to escape gay persecution. And three, just about every gay person I know

(16:14):
lost a loved one when they cameout of the closet, Some lost many,
and some lost all. So toEric's point, young and vulnerable gay
men often find themselves in new places, desperate for the community acceptance and love.
They were denied by their churches andfamilies, with little sense of social

(16:37):
or personal value due to a longhistory of broad and often personal homophobia propagated
by those very churches, which makesthem incredibly easy to take advantage of,
and according to the National Institutes ofHealth, psychosocial variables like persecution, isolation,
depression, increased drug and alcohol abusein gay men and women, which

(17:00):
make them even more vulnerable, Andthen the coping mechanisms gay pride, gay
clubs, promiscuity, drug and alcoholabuse are then used to both further persecute
and marginalize gay people, but alsofurther validate people's persecution of gay people.
There was something that my friend Jasonsaid back in episode two that has really

(17:22):
struck with me and cultivated quite abit of anger within me. In essence,
with a greater cultural shift toward acceptanceand tolerance of gay people, words
I find contextually quite disgusting, therewas no need for personal or cultural atonement.
Essentially, we tolerate you, now, stop complaining and never mind what

(17:45):
came before. It makes me thinkof all the people who called me or
other gay people words like faggot,sissy, fruit, queer, fairy,
degenerate, sinner, cocksucker, andso on and on and on, who
now refer to themselves as pro gayor advocates or allies or friends of because

(18:07):
culturally that's where we are now.And while I value their shifts in behavior
and thinking, I have to wonderwas there ever atonement, Was there ever
any acknowledgment of how they contributed tothe marginalization of the community they now stand
behind, Because if not, where'sthe personal growth and how pliable are they?

(18:30):
Especially now as we face a shiftaway from tolerance and acceptance for gay
people, it was the gay peoplewho had to do the work to get
where we are today, which isstill a far cry from where we should
be, and they have literally dieddoing it. From twenty twenty two to
twenty twenty three, there was athirteen point eight percent increase in gay related

(18:55):
hate crimes. There were more thanone thousand single bias LGBTQ hate crimes reported
just to the FBI in twenty twentytwo, the same year that saw more
than five hundred and fifty anti LGBTQbills introduced in forty three states. More
than eighty were signed into law.The problem not only persists, but is

(19:19):
getting worse, and quite frankly,if it's religious and straight and governmental people
who created the problem, it's religiousand straight and governmental people who need to
fucking fix it. Voting for apolitician and then saying you don't agree with

(19:40):
his social views is neither activism norconcession. Its willful ignorance and actual bullshit.
Now you reached out to me.What prompted you to reach out?
I stumbled upon in your podcast andthings that were in your podcast, I

(20:04):
were things that kind of weighed onme. Does it take a genius to
know that there are other victims outthere? That I'm sure of it.
And I've been told that somebody that'sbeen working on also working on the case,
can put Stephen in the vicinity ofwhere these men are have gone missing
the area, and so that leadsme to believe that they again, that

(20:27):
this investigation did a shoddy job.And knowing what he said, one of
his goals was to assault, makesomebody disappear on the holidays or any day,
just so the their family would suffer, you know, the heartache every
year. You know, I thinkabout my mom knowing if he did ultimately

(20:48):
carry out what he meant to doto me, that my mother, who
has an adible luxury, wondering whereI was so time really really upsets me.
I can't imagine a parent being onethat there are people not knowing what
happened to their loved one. AndI do believe that he's attached to other
cases that could be solved if somebodycared enough to dive in a little deeper.

(21:15):
Every time I've spoken with Albert Perkins, he's urged me to keep investigating
Steven Lorenzo and Scott Schweikert, atone point even asking if I would do
a second season focusing on them,which was never the plan. The plan
was eight episodes covering this case andthen next season would be a new case.
But over time, throughout both theseason and our investigation, I felt

(21:40):
more and more that I was doinga disservice by ending things after just eight
episodes. There is still so muchmore story to tell. There is still
so much more to this investigation,and at this point we've only just laid
out the facts of the case andthe anthropology and history that helped to cultivate
these senseless crimes. And yet we'vespent hundreds of hours investigating potential victims and

(22:08):
have a list of, in myopinion, at least eight very likely victims,
and I could just give high levelexplanations of who they are, rattle
their names out in a list inthe back half of an episode, but
not only would it be unkind,it would miss the entire point of this
podcast. This was never intended tobe a true crime podcast. This was

(22:33):
always about marginalization and visibility and selfexamination. How we've all contributed to the
problem, How we've all neglected tofix it. But it's also about the
victims of not just hate, butof these hateful men, Jason Galehouse and
his friends and family, Michael Wockletsand his friends and family, the unknown

(22:56):
and unnamed victims and their friends andfamily, Albert Perkins and his friends and
family, and the gay family atlarge, and so on and on and
on. So next season, I'lltake you deep into our investigation into Lorenzo
and Schweikert, as we continue todiscuss gay culture and persecution while shining a

(23:22):
light on the many missing and murderedgay men. And as this season comes
to a close, I ask youall to really sit with everything we've shared
with you, sit with how you'vecontributed to the problem and how you can
contribute to change, because none ofus are growing if we're not constantly interrogating
our values, our beliefs, ouropinions, and our pasts and how we

(23:48):
impact the people and spaces around us. Taxi driver, you must shrink for
the hour, leave the meter running. It's rush shower, So take the

(24:18):
streets. If you want me juststart running the demons? Could you?
He said? A lot? WhoI can bar? I told him don't
cut me for buying meat prayer.I guess it couldn't hurt me. If
it brings me to my name,it's a bad religion. The sun crowds

(24:53):
could in saynt must go from.This episode was written, researched, edited

(25:18):
and produced by me Josh Hallmark.Resources included religiosity and attitudes towards lesbians and
gay men, a meta analysis byBernard E. Whitley Junior, How religiosity
shapes rejection of homosexuals across the Globeby Dirk jan Johnson, The New York
Times, Time Magazine, the HarvardPolitical Review, the National Institutes for Health,

(25:40):
the American Psychological Association, the HarvardUniversity Press, The Hill, the
Trevor Project, and the Human RightsCampaign. This episode featured Eric Carterlandine and
Albert Perkins, and it was madepossible by the following Patreon producers Adrian I.
Yello, Amelia Hancock, Amy Baseland at El, Benjamin Chopp of
Casey, Jensen Richardson, Dana Keith, Drew Vipond, Hallie Reed, Jessica

(26:03):
Ally Hoadzig, Jillian Otale, JohnO'Leary, Kendall, c kimberly Ka,
Lauren F. Lindsay Curtis Lindley,tuscoff Manolas bullcous Nicole and Dennis Henry,
Sarah King, s C. ShelleyBrewer, Tuesday Woodworth, Vicky Russell,
Zach Ignottowitz, Warren Ashley Harris,Beth McNally, John Comery, Jordan Taylor,
Carly mcnat, Lana Sarah C,Shauna Harden and Lydia Fiedler. Thank

(26:25):
you to Studio both Ann's newest Patreonsupporters, Courtney B, Lisa c Ashley,
P, Steph F Kevin Di DeFranco, Nikki H, Christa Pe,
Tracy D. Hector, Christine Al A P. Carla s Emily P.
Colin A, Tory Y, OliviaR. And Quinnlin. To support
the investigation, go to Patreon dotcom slash Studio both And. This episode

(26:47):
included music by Otti Goldstein, withfeatured music by Frank Oceans. I can't
sell you the touth of my disguise. I can't shust no one goose who
I bar? I told him duncansme buy your kneed brash. I guess
they couldn't have me if it bringsme to my name. It's a bad

(27:15):
religion required a love to me.It's nothing but one man come in,
sying that my starter fall come.I can never make them love me,

(27:38):
never make them love me. No, no, it's a it's a bad
religion. You love some one wholove love you, Holy bad, only
bad religion. Have you feel theway I do.