Hostile Divorce: The Case of Kayla Giles

KJ breaks down this tragic story of a shooting in Alexandria, Louisiana during the fall of 2018 involving a wife, Kayla Giles Coutee murdering her estranged husband, Thomas Coutee,Jr., an MMA fighter and Welding Instructor at an Alexandria Wal-Mart during a custody exchange. 

Chapters 
06:42 Thomas and Kayla  07:11 The 911 Call
16:42 The Shooting Incident
19:43 Aftermath of the Shooting
32:08 Video Evidence Review
46:43 Battered Woman Syndrome Discussion
50:43 Children's Accounts of Violence
59:36 Kayla's Arrest and Charges
1:00:37 New Evidence Emerges

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to Unspeakable, a true crime podcast where I tell
stories of real crimes with real victims whose cases are
so shocking that many are left wondering how is this
even real? I use my experiences in law enforcement corrections,
and combined with my years as a criminal justice educator,

(00:28):
dig deep into complex cases of evil acts, some so
evil many feel they are unspeakable.

Speaker 2 (00:50):
Warning.

Speaker 1 (00:51):
Unspeakable as intended for mature audiences. If you are easily offended,
then I'm not your girl. Listening discretion is advised. Hey, y'all,
kJ You're back with another episode of Unspeakable. What's happening?
How is your week going? It's fantastic here. The weather
is shit, but that's okay. That's no problem because that
gives us more time to listen to the podcast. Right,
you can sit inside or do whatever. And it's cold

(01:13):
where I'm at? Is it cold where you are? Because
Mama don't do well in the cold. I need it
to be hot. I want to be out on the river.
I want to be fishing, not cold in my house.
All right, So I've got a banging episode for you
this week. Worked really hard on this one as far
as there is so much going on, and I know
that this one's actually kind of popular, especially in Louisiana,
so I wanted to make sure to cover it for you.

(01:35):
Before I get started, though, I have to give some
shout outs, and I will start loud and proud in Laplace, Louisiana,
where Sarah Boudreau, girl, you better be smiling, you better
be big cheesing right now. As I promised, I was
giving you a shout out this next episode, so I'm
saying hello, I'm waving to you in the camera, Sarah,

(01:55):
so happy to have you. My family is actually Boudreaus,
so we might be cousin. I'll say that all the time.
Everybody's my cousin, right, So so happy to have you, Sarah.
And then right here also in Denim Springs, Louisiana, and
I know you personally, Melissa Burgess, how are you? Haven't
seen you in a little bit, but I'm waving at
you and it just made my day to see your
name come across as a member of my crime family.

(02:17):
And then we're gonna go to Thomasville, Georgia, where I
have Marcia, and I believe this.

Speaker 2 (02:22):
Would be Popell Popell, Popell Popell. It's Popell.

Speaker 1 (02:26):
Hey, Marsha, what is going on in your neck of
the woods. My friend, just my best friend actually just
moved to Georgia. That's bittersweet, but maybe y'all will meet
and y'all can be besties too. Then Greensboro, and this
is Pennsylvania. We've got Lorie Cowie. Lori Cowie, what a
cute name. How are you doing, Lori Cowie over there
in Greensboro. I hope that you're having the best time

(02:48):
this week and that you see me waving at you
in the camera. And then, last, but not least, all
the way from California is gonna be Miss Holly Pritchett.

Speaker 2 (02:57):
Hi, Holly.

Speaker 1 (02:58):
Please tell everybody that I said all the way over there,
never been there, but I do have plans to make
it your way now. Like I said, we are going
to be staying in my home state of Louisiana for
this episode. And if you have been around at all,
you probably have heard about this case and I took
a deep dive for you. So we are going to
go all the way to Alexandria, Louisiana.

Speaker 2 (03:22):
And this is not a city too far from me.

Speaker 1 (03:23):
It's located right in central Louisiana, and specifically this is
going to be in Rapid's Parish and it sits roughly
halfway between Lafayette and Shreveport. And it's the ninth largest
city in the state if you're curious about what type
of or what size this area is. And it lies
right on the south bank of the Red River. And

(03:45):
that city is known as the heart of Louisiana since
it literally sits right in the middle of the state
and it operates much like the rest of our state does,
full of you know, Cajun people and Southern Baptist beliefs.
It's different, I guess from other areas, depending if you
go north or south, but right there in the central area,
you know, they're right in the heart of things. So

(04:07):
while certainly not country life, it does maintain that old
time feel. It's known for cotton and sugar and alfalfa,
and then it's got these bayous that lazily, you know,
make their way through the state and through that area
full of wildlife, ones like Byou Rapids, by you Robert.

(04:28):
All of these are are known for that in that area.
So Alexandra is going to be home to a lot
of people. And this is gonna include Thomas and Kayla Kuti.
Now this isn't kuti or koty like you have cooties. No,
this is from French roots and it's pronounced kooti. Fun fact,
by the way, the name originates from the word kutil,

(04:50):
which refers to somebody that sold like this mattress ticking,
which is a type of strong cotton drill. But koutil
is Parisian French. And down here we got more kuon
ass going on than anything. And so cooton if I believe,
if I remember that correctly, that would be the kun

(05:11):
as cage and way to say cotton.

Speaker 2 (05:12):
So there's that. Now, while you may not speak French,
you should know your letters and so can you say
m m A, of course you can. Well, let's talk
about some of the people in this case and how
MMA fighting plays a role in it. So Thomas Kuti
had a hobby that he loved so much that.

Speaker 1 (05:35):
He was hoping that, I don't know, maybe he could
go pro one day. We all dream, right in some fashion,
that we make it to the top of our game.
And so while Thomas worked as a welding instructor at
Central Louisiana Technical College, that was his official job that
paid the bills. He also loved to fight, and he
was no professional by any means, like I said, but
he aspired to be a great fighter one day. Nobody

(05:57):
gets in the ring not wanting to be the best.
But for now he was just an amateur. He stood
six feet one inch tall. He weighed roughly two hundred
and fifteen pounds, which would put him in the light
heavyweight category on his card, and his welding job is
what put food on the table. But his passion for
mma was undeniable. So he was known as Thomas Hitman

(06:20):
Couti and he had a record of four wins and
one loss. And he also loved to race all terrain vehicles.
This is a dude's dude.

Speaker 2 (06:29):
If ever there was so welding, fighting and racing.

Speaker 1 (06:33):
What more can I say that would prove this point
to you that he was just a dude's dude. And Kayla,
his wife, she was a catch as well, but she
has a tiny little thing. She stood about five foot two,
one hundred and fourteen pounds, but she carried a sassy
punch with her and they say that dynamite comes in
small packages, so she would definitely exemplify that statement. She

(06:56):
was an Army veteran, but after her contract ended, she
didn't just up and completely leave the military in her
past because she was working for the Veterans Affairs Office,
which serves to aid veterans in their healthcare benefits things
along those lines. Now, these are just two regular people
living their regular lives. When on September the eighth of

(07:18):
twenty eighteen, at around eleven am, a nine to one
one call came into dispatch. This was a shots fired
call and it was right outside of the local walmart
in Alexandria, Louisiana, and basically stated a man was down.
So when police arrived, they did find a man on
the ground. He was being worked on and based on

(07:40):
witnesses at the scene, he had been receiving CPR prior
to even I think the paramedics arriving. Some help had
been given to him and they too continued working on
him once the medics got there. Upon their arrival, now,
while securing the scene, it was realized that the man
on the ground was Thomas Kotie and his estranged now wife, Kayla,

(08:05):
was also on the scene.

Speaker 2 (08:07):
So obviously this was very interesting.

Speaker 1 (08:10):
So police wanted to ask some questions as to what
exactly had taken place.

Speaker 2 (08:16):
For the shooting to have taken place.

Speaker 1 (08:18):
So Kayla was calm at the scene, but she was
on her phone initially before police were able to get
to her and to speak with her when they were
trying to kind of settle the area. And you're always
told one thing. Maybe you haven't been told this, but
this is a very common thing that you would be told,
and that is that anytime that you may be involved

(08:39):
in a potentially dangerous situation or one in which you
might be looked at as possibly a suspect, you definitely
should never speak to the police in that type of situation. Now,
every cop in America right now is going shut up, Kelly, No,
that's not true. I get what you're saying. But as
far as a defense attorney would say, they would tell you,

(09:01):
don't speak to the police, wait until you have an
attorney present. But sometimes it just isn't that simple. So
at first, when the police wanted to speak with her,
Kayla was hesitant because of that very notion of hey,
you know, you shouldn't speak.

Speaker 2 (09:16):
To the police.

Speaker 1 (09:17):
However, once she got to the police station, things became
much more tense, and she felt that she needed to
tell them everything to clear the air. So before I
get into what that questioning was, let me tell you
a little bit about Thomas and Kayla so that she
can become more acquainted with what the all around situation

(09:38):
was at the time of this shooting at Walmart. So
when the first two when the two first met, they
were both in their twenties. Kayla was one year older
than Thomas, and they were obviously attracted to one another physically,
but that was at first, and then that would grow
into a meaningful relationship well beyond the physical within time.

(10:00):
So Kayla was a pretty little thing, long brown hair,
almond shaped, brown eyes, tiny little features all the way around.
While Thomas was a handsome guy too, in a very
i would say, country rugged type of way. So like,
if you like testosterone, very obvious in your guy, he's
your type. He wasn't bulging with muscles or anything like that.

(10:20):
But he was fit, he was tall, he was manly.
He had this average guy's short brown haircut, and he
had a brown goateee. That was his typical look from
day to day. So as the relationship had become more serious,
Thomas knew that loving Kayla would also mean he had
to love every part of her, including the fact that

(10:43):
she was already a mother not of just one child,
but of two from a previous relationship. But luckily for her,
this was not an issue for him, and when he
finally proposed to Kayla, he did so with the full
intention of a loving stepfather to her children. The couple

(11:04):
was overjoyed to announce their engagement, and they eventually would
seal the deal in Waco, Texas on October twenty fourth
of twenty fourteen. So soon thereafter, as you can probably expect,
the couple would find out that they were expecting a
child together, and this was just a beautiful moment that
they were just both over the moon to not only

(11:26):
have their children through this marriage, but now they're going
to share a child, at least biologically, right through their union.
And blended families can be difficult, but considering the older
two girls were still really little, the transition would prove
very very smooth. Everyone loves a baby, especially two little

(11:46):
girls who are going to be promoted to big sisters,
and after waiting a few weeks, they found out that
they would be big sisters to none other than another
little sister. No boys in this house. Poor Thomas was
going to be completely and totally outnumbered in the household.

(12:06):
And I think everybody goes into a marriage expecting things
to last forever and to be wonderful, and.

Speaker 2 (12:12):
Let's at least hope.

Speaker 1 (12:13):
So why did you jump into a marriage if you didn't.
But as is all too common, after the baby was born,
things just began to unravel. The tensions of life and responsibilities,
all of it just became a lot, and the fighting
failed to have negotiation within it, and it just began
to escalate. And although it wasn't what they expected starting out,

(12:37):
their marriage was destined basically for failure. An inability to
compromise and an inability to work through and try to
have issue resolution would send their marriage into an absolute spiral.
So the couple would remain married for only about four
years before they decided they were just going to call
it quits, and they officially separated on February second of

(12:59):
twenty eighteen. Now Thomas would be the one who would
officially file for the divorce and start those proceedings, and
things seem to be moving along just as amicably as
you could expect when people no longer want.

Speaker 2 (13:12):
To be together.

Speaker 1 (13:13):
But the courts did have to get involved to help
them mitigate their differences and the separation of their lives.
And the main thing that was being considered as far
as the parents were concerned, was who would have custody
of their shared biological daughter. Neither side wanted to give

(13:33):
up their rights or give up their time with the child,
and so that was the whole issue that was at
the forefront of everything. Who would get to have her
for holidays and birthdays and everything that every friggin divorcing
family across America likely argues. And I mean, hell, they
couldn't get along in their marriage, so they sure as

(13:54):
hell weren't going to be getting along when it was over,
you know. And we're supposed to be making these these
agreements with one another. So the courts were doing their part,
and this included determining property settlement as well as things
like who would be covering medical and dental coverage for
the children or their child together, respectively. So they owned

(14:14):
a home in Pineville, Louisiana, as well as about five
acres of property in Rydell, Texas, and then they had
two vehicles, nothing extravagant, but it still had to be
dealt with. I mean, it's business as usual. So Kayla
would be determined to be the one that would provide
the medical and the dental insurance for their daughter through
the VA. So there was no problem there. That was

(14:37):
a good thing. There was coverage. But six months after
they separated and the divorce was now in full on
in progress, they would find themselves in family court on
August twentieth of twenty eighteen to get an official custody
order from the judge. So, after weighing all of the
information and considering what was thought to be in the

(15:00):
best interest of the child, the judge decided it would
be best if they shared custody of their daughter. Now,
the exact days or schedule, I don't have that to
give you. I don't find that to be even relevant. Honestly,
in the story, they were splitting custody in whatever manner
that was set in the courts. I'm assuming it was

(15:22):
fifty to fifty with alternating weekends, which is very common.
And you're like, Okay, well, why do you assume that, Kelly, Well,
I'm a child of divorce. I've been through it myself.
It's just something that I would assume to be the
general idea. So while this to me would be a
considered a win on both sides, I can see how

(15:43):
this would be stressful as a mother and as a father,
because a mama wants her baby all the time. You know,
Mamas don't want to give up. That's our role is
to nurture and to love and to take care of
And the thing is that that's the daddy's role too.
Daddies feel the drive to protect and to provide and
to love their children as well. So even with an

(16:06):
order in place for the exchanges, things became more and
more contentious. It just was not improving. I would say.
The custody exchanges weren't going well either, and no matter
what they fought. By the way, you can always do
a custody exchange at a police station if you feel

(16:28):
like things may go bad or may escalate. I'm just
throwing that out there. If you're going through this right now,
that's good advice. Take it or leave it. But custody
exchanges can be done in the presence of law enforcement
if you're have any worries about that. So that's where
we will get to this shooting at Walmart, which despite
heroic efforts that were given, they were unable to save

(16:51):
Thomas Coote's life, and he's still lay dead on the
ground when Kayla left the scene to be questioned by police,
and it was pretty clear that something had gone sideways,
and Kayla readily admitted that she had shot and ultimately
killed her estranged husband right there in that Walmart parking lot.

(17:12):
But there was one pretty big detail to this that
to me, adds so much more devastation to the already
horrible situation. All three of these little girls were there
and watched it happen with their own little eyes. All
three of these baby girls were right there, only two

(17:36):
years old, five years old, and seven years old, and
they watched their father and stepfather be shot by their
mother and then he collapse right there in front of
them during what should have been a simple custody exchange.
They heard this loud boom of the gun go off,

(17:58):
which is scary enough not to mention they were only
mere feet away when it took place, but they also
watched it from just these few feet away as he collapsed.
And then you know, strangers run up and they're trying
to stop this bleeding and trying to keep their daddy alive,
all while still buckled in to his truck, And it

(18:18):
paints a picture in my mind that.

Speaker 2 (18:21):
Is just devastating.

Speaker 1 (18:22):
It's just unnatural and something that we wouldn't wish on
our worst enemy for a child to witness. And they
never saw him stand back up, They never saw him
even move after he fell over. They never even got
to see an ambulance take him away either with the

(18:42):
hope of maybe he would live, because he died right
there in front of them. The crime scene was taped
off around their motionless and bleeding dad, and their mother
was then taken away for questioning as their little minds
sat there and just tried to absorb what was happening,
and to put yourself in the shoes of a two,

(19:03):
five and seven year old, and that they don't understand
the complexities of everything that's going on. I'm sure that
they were terrified, absolutely terrified. The two very people whose
job it was to protect them and shield their little
eyes from things too mature for them. They both of
those people had failed to do just that, one because

(19:26):
he couldn't he was lying dead on the ground, and
the other because she was so scared and upset and
unsure of what to do, made a split second decision
that would now affect everybody within a five foot radius
of that gun going off. So, as you can likely tell,
this episode is not going to be a huge who

(19:48):
done it?

Speaker 2 (19:49):
This is going to be a little.

Speaker 1 (19:50):
Bit different, but there will be more questions than answers.
Very shortly so, while CSI came in for the photos
and to document the scene, the coroner was also called
to come because they have to retrieve the body, and
upon detective's completion of gathering all of their evidence at
the scene, Thomas was then loaded into a van and

(20:11):
brought to the medical examiner's office for autopsy. The girls
were loaded up and they were taken away as well,
to the custody of trusted adults, while Kayla was brought
to the police station where the questioning of what the
hell just happened would begin. Now Initially wanting to maintain
her silence, like I already said, Kayla was hesitant to speak,

(20:33):
but eventually she would start to open up and speak
about the events of that morning as they unfolded, and
she explained that she and Thomas were separated. They were
well on their way to divorcing, but they had also
made arrangements that day to meet up for a custody exchange,
and it was going to be a fun day, specifically
for their youngest daughter, because she was heading to Chuck

(20:56):
E Cheese. That's right, y'all. It was her second birthday.
It was her birthday, and her daddy was gonna have
a little party for her in celebration at the Chucky Cheese.
Not only that, but Thomas had also invited his soon
to be ex step daughters to join them as well
at this party. Now, this was their half sister's birthday,

(21:19):
and y'all, regardless of the adult divorce drama, they were
still little girls and they wanted to be there. They
wanted to be there. Thomas also loved these little girls,
all three of them, and he was happy to invite
them along. Think about this, He had played and fulfilled
the role of daddy for these two non biological girls

(21:41):
for almost four years, and to act as if he
could just discard them, I would say, would be a
complete insult to his character. You know, he took care
of these girls, and he took a vow to take
care of these girls, and he did just that. So
although the girls were now five and seven, divorce means
nothing small children who just know that they love people

(22:03):
and they're not going to stop loving adults or their
half sister just because the divorce happens. Kids aren't wired
that way. It doesn't work like that. They don't lose
love for people because a divorce is in place. And
both Kayla and Thomas, to their credit, recognize this, and
so the plan was to meet up at the Walmart
parking lot around eleven AM, where Kayla would hand over

(22:26):
the children to Thomas for him to take them to
this birthday party. Now, Kayla was reportedly living in a
gated community right near the Walmart. I believe it was condos,
and so this was a very convenient and neutral site
for this exchange to take place. And Kayla would explain
to the investigators that what started out as a completely

(22:46):
normal ish I guess.

Speaker 2 (22:48):
You know, for what they were dealing with.

Speaker 1 (22:50):
What started out as a normalish exchange, with that typical
tension that you would expect of newly divorcing people, it
would soon escalate in a matter of seconds to something
well beyond just frustration with one another. She was very,
very clear to start that she in fact shot Thomas,

(23:11):
and the reason why was because she was absolutely positively
terrified of him, and he was demanding that she talked
to him more in depth after he got the children,
and she told him, no, no, I don't want to
do this. I'm giving you the kids. I'm not going
to talk to you. I don't want to fight, I
don't want any of that. I don't want any interaction

(23:31):
with you besides exchanging the children. I just was trying
to leave and telling him no. And when I told
him no, and when I rejected him and refused to speak,
that's when Thomas just he snapped and he got extremely
angry at her dismissal of him, and that's when he
turned very aggressive towards her. He became very irate and

(23:55):
was acting completely I don't want to say out of character,
but not not.

Speaker 2 (24:01):
What she wanted. He was very irate with her.

Speaker 1 (24:05):
So, in continuing that conversation, the detective was basically trying
to get Kayla to pinpoint exactly what scared her and
exactly what Thomas did that was so bad that she
would feel like her only option was to shoot him.

Speaker 2 (24:21):
And this is.

Speaker 1 (24:22):
Important because she absolutely can be afraid, you can be
afraid of anybody, but you've got to be able to
articulate to this detective what exactly took place. So I
think that's a fair assessment or a question by this detective.
So when he asks this, Kayla at that point was
answering in more generalities than specifics about their relationship issues,

(24:45):
So things like, oh, well he's you know, he's always
very loud and yelling and mean and aggressive. Well, that's
not a specific in the moment, and he was trying
to narrow it down to the moment that it took place.
So when pressured more in that regard, she eventually said,
and this is a direct quote, he was coming after

(25:06):
me and he called me a bitch twice. So the
detective kind of saddleness for a second before asking her,
you shot a man because he called you a bitch.
And I gotta say to sche Bro, like, if I
shot someone every time they called me a bitch, bruh,

(25:26):
I'd have a body count like none other. Not because
I'm a bitch, but because I can totally turn one
if need be, as can I think most of us.
But Kayla then went on to explain in more depth
that she had been scared of Thomas because he was
continuously doing things to intimidate her. And then she was

(25:48):
very specific that he had even hurt her in the
past on multiple occasions. And the shooting happened because when
she was wanting to leave, Thomas was wanting to continue
talking and she declined that, which made him do this
thing he did where he became enraged and wanted her
to do what he wanted her to do and there

(26:09):
was no other option whenever he got mad, basically specifics
breaking it down. After placing the girls in his truck,
he then came back to her vehicle. She said he
ripped open her driver's side door, at which point he
came inside, jumping on her or at her and screaming.

(26:29):
It was absolutely terrifying.

Speaker 2 (26:31):
She said.

Speaker 1 (26:31):
It scared the living shit out of her. She was panicked.
She just was afraid that he was literally gonna kill her. Now,
remember he's considerably larger than her. He's also training an MMA,
which is mixed martial arts. If that's not something that
you follow, and these small details adding up do matter
whenever there's violence that takes place. So at this point,

(26:55):
while calling you a bitch, and ripping open your door
are probably frowned upon as we can all agree, does
that really constitute shooting someone? Well, this is where this
totality of circumstances is going to come into play when
the detectives are investigating. And I want to go through
this with you as my listeners, because people who aren't

(27:16):
familiar with law enforcement or have never really actually understood
how an investigation takes place.

Speaker 2 (27:22):
These are the things that happen, These are the things
that matter.

Speaker 1 (27:26):
So was it possible that there was more that needed
to be looked at to understand why she was so
seemingly quick to pull the trigger and kill someone. On
top of that, was she quick to actually pull the
trigger or did she have to in that moment to
avoid impending violence and serious violence at that So, Kayla,

(27:50):
in further discussion, was able to outline some specifics of
the incidences that she said took place previously, which were
the things that led up to why she would so
terrified of Thomas. She told the detective that Thomas was
known to hit her in the past and that this
was nothing new. And this is when specifics questions were

(28:11):
asked about documentation in these incidences. Things like, Okay, did
you take photos of the abuse and the damage that
was done to your body? And she said no. Did
you ever go to the doctor for your injuries that
he caused you? Again she said no. She did explain

(28:33):
that she shared those incidents or those events with her
friends and some family, but when the detectives asked her
who they were, she was hesitant to give up the names.
But here's the thing. Nothing in life is black or white.
I would love it to be that way, but nothing
is black or white. There's a whole lot of gray

(28:53):
out there in this world. So was she being evasive
because she was lying, or was she telling the truth
but not wanting to get her friends or family involved
in this horrid situation. I know we all go back
to what would we do? I do that, how would
I act? But I always assume that I'm a prudent

(29:14):
and a level headed thinker. But experiences will change how
we interpret things. So this was going to be the
detective's job to muddle through and to figure out. But
here's the other thing. The detective decided to go and
check the report's database for any police reports of the

(29:35):
abuse that had taken place over these last four years,
but there was nothing in there of Kayla making a
report on Thomas. What was there were two documented reports
from Thomas alleging that Kayla had been allegedly violent during
prior custody exchanges with the kids. So this is kind

(29:58):
of going to raise some eyebrows. To be specific, one
of these incidentss was at a Kroger and another one
was at a parking lot of a of a tattoo parlor. So,
continuing in their questioning, police asked Kayla if they could
see her phone, to which she declined, but y'all stop stop, okay,

(30:18):
this isn't like in your face obvious stuff, Because in
Kayla's mind, she felt like the questioning had become pretty contentious,
and so when they asked for her phone, she became
pretty defensive at the way that they were questioning her,
and she said, look, I don't like the way that
I'm being treated in this room, and so no, I'm

(30:38):
not going to give you my phone. I don't like
the way that you're talking to me. I don't like
the way that you're you're treating me. So for detectives
to do a full investigation, they would need a search
warrant for a lot of things. Plus they would need
to search out things like surveillance tape to see if
that possibly existed, and they wanted to review everything to

(31:00):
try to figure out what went on. But believe it
or not, Walmart's cameras did not catch the event. There
was video, but it was not at a good angle,
and I think it was from too far of a
distance if I remember correctly. But Walmart's video was not
very good. So looking around the scene, detectives wanted to

(31:24):
see if they could find someone else maybe that would
have video. And they looked out and they noticed that
there was a Sonic food chain next door to Walmart
and they did have a camera. Police could see it.
They did have a camera on the side of the
building and luckily it was facing the direction where the
shooting had taken place. This is awesome, So detectives go

(31:45):
over there and they asked to review the tape, and
sure enough, there was a video right there at the
right angle. Now, detectives watched as the event unfolded. But
I have to tell you there are some obvious issues
with this video as well. And I'll tell you I
watched it myself, so I can confirm the following things.

Speaker 2 (32:06):
That detectives would say.

Speaker 1 (32:09):
Number One, it is from a very far distance, so
it is not completely clear. Also, even if the video
was clear, like in a moment, it's almost like if
the wind blew, or maybe if it was just pixelating
or something like that, but it would go from from.

Speaker 2 (32:31):
Clear to fuzzy, back to clear to fuzzy.

Speaker 1 (32:34):
And I can't tell if it's necessarily the wind, maybe
shaking the camera or what, but it's not one hundred
percent clear the entire time. Another issue is that the
angle of the video cuts off the top of the
cars as it's unfolding. As the event is unfolding, however,
you can tell what is happening in general. So here's

(32:57):
what the video shows. There are two narrow driveways that
are running parallel to one another with a grassy median
in between them. Very well manicured, very clean looking area.
And if you're from this area, it was on Coliseum
Boulevard to be specific. It was light outside, very nice
day in terms of weather. Picture perfect honestly. And in

(33:19):
the upper left portion of the video, this is where
you can see the two of them drive up in
separate vehicles.

Speaker 2 (33:26):
Kayla is in a.

Speaker 1 (33:27):
Gray four door Dodge Durango suv and Thomas is in
a white Chevy truck. It looks to me to be
a Silverado and probably has a few inch lift kit
on it. So when they pull up, they're basically facing
each other, and then when they come to park, they're
parking in opposite directions. So what I'm trying to tell

(33:48):
you is their driver side door to driver side door,
so you'll understand what I mean here, And his truck
is a little bit further towards the back of her vehicle,
So I hope that kind of gives you a visual
there of how the vehicles are parked. Now, understanding the
video cuts off right at the at the you know,
towards the bottom of the vehicle windows. You really can

(34:12):
only see their bottom halves of their bodies during most
of the exchange. Now, I want you to ask yourself
something real quick. How do people move in stressful situations?
I want you to really think about this for a
second before I go further. I know that you know
I'm a When I'm relaxed and I'm in a non

(34:34):
stressful situation, I'm not rushing around.

Speaker 2 (34:37):
I'm usually just doing my thing.

Speaker 1 (34:39):
But if I were to get excited, whether I got spooped,
you know, scared, or if I'm being playful with someone,
which I am a playful person, and so I'll jump
at people and stuff.

Speaker 2 (34:49):
That's just my style.

Speaker 1 (34:50):
If I were to get excited, whether it was playful
or fearful, whatever, for some reason, I would believe that
I would become more furtive in my movements or quicker
in my a A furtive, by the way, means let's
say this is a totally different hypothetical. But let's say
like there's a guy walking down the street at night,
and he's got his hoodie up and he's walking, and

(35:10):
then a police car happens to pull up in front
of him, and then all of a sudden, he turns
around the opposite direction and starts walking the other way.
That's a furtive movement. It's just an unnatural movement. That's
what I would think would happen. I'm calm and collected,
kind of bebopping along. But if I'm scared or excited,
then all of a sudden, you might see me get
a little more jerky.

Speaker 2 (35:29):
In in my movements.

Speaker 1 (35:30):
And I think most reasonable people would agree that that's
how we as humans operate. If you disagree, that's fine,
let me know on Facebook or message be on Patreon, whatever.
But that's what I think most of us would do.
So with that in mind, as the video unfolds, Thomas
gets out.

Speaker 2 (35:47):
He appears to.

Speaker 1 (35:48):
Be in shorts and a hoodie. Possibly Again it's from
a far distance and it gets grainy, but both of
them are out of the vehicle at one point, and
they're kind of moving between the two vehicles. I don't
personally see any type of movements that look fast or
jumping or lunging or furtive. I don't personally see that.

(36:11):
But as a podcaster, I think it's my duty and
it's my obligation to say, why don't you watch the video?
Why don't you go see what you see? Because that's
what detectives are doing. They're looking at it and assessing
what do they see when this event is going down.
And I will post this, by the way, on Patreon
for you so you can go look at it. So

(36:32):
both of them are out and moving between the vehicles.
Like I said, nothing looks suspicious, and I watched it
not only multiple times, but I also zoomed in as
I did so, and the thing I'll post for you
on Patreon. Is I've zoomed in so that you can
get a really zoomed in look too. But what I
do see is, at some point after the girls are transferred,

(36:55):
I do see Kayla move back towards her car and
get into the driver side seat, at which point Thomas
does turn and follow her to that door. Now I
cannot tell. I'm not sure if he pulls the latch
and he tries to open the door, or if the
door is still already a jar. I also can't tell

(37:17):
if he just pulls a latch once or if it's
just an easy tug, or if he's jerking on the door.
I can't tell. I can't see that. But within literal
seconds of him touching the door or going towards the door,
you see him, You see the door kind of come open,
and then he literally, without exaggeration, he literally flies backwards

(37:43):
very quickly in the frame, and then he collapses and
he's falling. He's the falling backward is faster than any
movement that I see during the entire video, minus cars
that are driving by.

Speaker 2 (37:57):
As this takes place.

Speaker 1 (37:59):
So what I'm I'm just basically trying to evoke to
you is that the motions and movements of everybody seems
very normal. And then the fastest thing that I see
is him fly back whenever the shot rings out. But
because there's no good sound and the video is grainy,
what Kayla says was happening could be true. It's not

(38:20):
like what she is saying is like, oh, that didn't happen.
I mean, watching the video, it definitely looks like what
she is saying could be true. But it's like there's
not enough to come to a conclusion one way or
another as to whether Thomas is just speaking with her
or whether he's jerking on the door or not. I'm
telling you, I really did look at this hard for you,

(38:43):
and I just don't have enough to come to a
conclusion at this point in the storytelling.

Speaker 2 (38:49):
I'm gonna tell.

Speaker 1 (38:50):
You I'd be fifty to fifty if I had decide
right now, I would be fifty to fifty on what's
going on now in a court of law, all right,
if if you were to have to say whether she
was guilty or not of like murdering him, per se,
you cannot be fifty to fifty.

Speaker 2 (39:08):
You have to.

Speaker 1 (39:08):
Be beyond a reasonable doubt to convict someone on this.
So we have two things, and I don't mean to
be teaching, but I want you to understand why I'm
breaking it down. We have a preponderance of evidence, and
then we have beyond a reasonable doubt. So a preponderance
of evidence would be more likely than not beyond a

(39:28):
reasonable doubt. Means you may not have one hundred percent
certainty of exactly what happened one hundred percent, but you're
beyond that doubt that whatever happened was wrong. Okay, so
just keep that in mind. What I found most interesting
were three specific things, three things that I'm going to
share with you because one in particular, I have not

(39:49):
heard brought up anywhere that I've looked, anywhere that I've read,
and I thought it was important to share it with you.
So Number one, the time between him approaching the door
of Kayla's to the time that she pulled the trigger.
What the question here is what is reasonable to believe

(40:12):
would be an appropriate amount of time for that to happen,
because multiple things had to have happened before she shoots
the gun. Number one, put yourself in this situation and
I'm gonna play. I'm gonna play it objectively here. Let's
say that he is attacking her. I'm not saying he is.
I'm not saying he isn't right now, But let's say

(40:33):
that he is attacking her. Number One, her brain has
to have time to assess the threat level. Number two,
her brain then has to react to that threat level.
And action is always faster than reaction, So she has
to assess the threat level. Her brain has to react

(40:54):
to that said threat, which means obtaining the weapon that
she had, the gun that she had for protection. So
if they were arguing and he wanted to talk more,
she could have turned and gone to the car to
get away. I will give her that benefit of the
doubt on this one. She could have just gone to
the car to get away from him. And then if

(41:15):
he was flipping out you can't tell from the video,
and he began to rage like she said. This brings
about my second issue to consider. How did she obtain
the weapon so fast? Why do I bring this up? Well,
it's because, in her own words, she told the police

(41:36):
that she kept the gun in her driver's side door
and it was in a holster. So if you're familiar
with guns, your law enforcement or maybe you're just you're
open carry or whatever it is that you do conceal carry.
I don't care whatever. All right, you should right now
at this moment, see what the obvious issue is. Okay,
if not, that's what I'm here for. How the hell

(42:00):
did you jump in the car, grab the gun, remove
it from its holster, and then not only aim, but
fire and hit him in a mirror two to three
second time frame. Now, if this is the movie is
I know what you're thinking. Oh, well, she just grabbed

(42:20):
the gun, she pulled it out, and she shot.

Speaker 2 (42:22):
Great. Love that.

Speaker 1 (42:23):
But I'm going to tell you this, and I've had
a lot of practice doing this, even in law enforcement work.

Speaker 2 (42:31):
Law enforcement officers.

Speaker 1 (42:32):
Literally practice holster withdrawals because we want to ensure quickness
in doing things under pressure. And that's the key under pressure.
When you are under pressure, you lose your your finite reflexes.
When you are under extreme pressure and you feel like

(42:53):
you're about to fight for your life, you know, your
eyes widened to take in what you're seeing, your heart's
going to are pumping faster, and all your blood is
going to actually pull you from your fingers and from
your extremities because it wants to focus on survival, and
all that blood is pulling into your heart to send
it to your brain and to these vital organs, so
your finite reflexes become very difficult.

Speaker 2 (43:17):
All right.

Speaker 1 (43:17):
So police train for this because you don't want to
lose that if you're in a fight for your life.
So even for someone who is trained, you still practice
that to make it fluid. Well, this is someone who
is not professionally trained, so I would say untrained to
assess the threat. And I doubt she sat at home
practicing withdraws from her holster. But even if she did,

(43:40):
even if she did have a holster and she practiced
withdraw it from it, this is the other issue I see.
Your holster has to be on your person, attached to
give you something to push against and pull on the withdrawal.
So if the gun was a holster in her door,

(44:02):
that means she had to grab it out of the door, pocket,
hold it with one hand, and then pull the gun
out and then turn and then aim and fire all
of that after assessing the threat. And he's on top
of her. Okay, this is just how I'm breaking it down.
So to me, it seems like she would have had
to have been prepared almost in a way and maybe

(44:23):
have already deholstered the weapon for this to go down
as fast as it did. And again that's my perception
of things at this point in the video. My third
issue is this, okay, and this is the one that
I haven't heard anyone bring up, and I want to
bring it up. My listeners know this. I'm a mother,
and I am a fiercely, fiercely protective mother at that

(44:45):
and I make no apologies for it, and I never will.
And considering the dynamics of this family, only one child
was biologically Thomas's, thus he only had a right to
that one specific child. With Kayla expressing how afraid of

(45:08):
Thomas she was and how he had hurt her in
the past so many times, and that she was just
so afraid she had to get a gun.

Speaker 2 (45:15):
She's that scared.

Speaker 1 (45:16):
Why on earth would you be willing to not only
meet this man, but also hand over the other two
minor children to spend time with him.

Speaker 2 (45:30):
That is something that is just hung with me for
a long time.

Speaker 1 (45:33):
While I was writing this episode, I'm like, I don't
think I'd be doing that. He has a propensity for violence.
I'm not handing over to additional children to him, no,
let alone. I don't want to give over the one.

Speaker 2 (45:44):
Child we share. Do you agree with that? Maybe you don't.
That's where I'm at and I just can't get past it.

Speaker 1 (45:51):
And I know someone will be thinking right now, oh, well,
he never hurt the kids, so maybe that's why to
me irrelevant, irrelevant if you you are scared enough that
you think you need to purchase a gun to defend yourself,
which means you think you might have to kill this
man potentially now.

Speaker 2 (46:10):
And she shot in the direction of.

Speaker 1 (46:11):
Her children, by the way, too, like the children in
the truck, and she's between he's between her and the children.

Speaker 2 (46:16):
Okay, then I just don't can't. I can't get behind that.

Speaker 1 (46:20):
You don't want to You wouldn't risk yourself not to
mention your children. If this is the level of abuse,
I just can't get behind that thought process.

Speaker 2 (46:28):
That's me, you do you, It's America. But this is
where things.

Speaker 1 (46:31):
Get a little bit more gray, because what is going
to be brought up at this point is the concept
of battered women or battered woman's syndrome. Okay, this does
come into play in this case. And let me start
by saying this, I want hundred percent, one hundred percent
agree that battered woman's syndrome is real.

Speaker 2 (46:50):
I am not.

Speaker 1 (46:50):
Disputing that fact at all. There's no doubt in my
mind that when people judge women from their own non
abused standpoint, of course, a batter woman's decision making may
look squirrely to you. Perception is everything in this world.
Experience is everything in this world. So for the sake

(47:10):
of acting as basically a juror in assessing this situation,
I want to explain a few things to you about
battered women's syndrome that you may want to take intoc
count while you're thinking through this one. There are signs
and symptoms that have commonalities in battered woman's syndrome. So
to be a battered woman and have that syndrome the
psychological effects of experiencing persistent domestic or intimate partner violence.

(47:35):
That is the definition per the American Psychological Association. I
didn't want to put it into my own words because
I want you to have a very valid explanation of it.
And these signs and symptoms, they can vary, but there
are commonalities that are undisputed. Okay, I'm just going to
tell you a couple of them. The first one is fear.
Healthy relationships do not leave you feeling like you are

(47:58):
walking on eggshells. Only abusive ones do. I hope that
we can all agree on that. Well, Kayla was expressing
how fearful she was of Thomas, so much so that
she had gotten a gun for protection, so that one
we might could check off and say, all right, I
got you.

Speaker 2 (48:16):
Lack of control. That is the next one.

Speaker 1 (48:19):
Healthy relationships are in general a fifty to fifty. Okay,
it may go a little bit more or less in
one direction, but abusive relationships typically have one partner who
holds the the only deciding vote in what happens in
that relationship relationship, and I'm not sure I'm seeing that
based on what we have discussed thus far. The next

(48:42):
one would be isolation. And this one's huge because people
who are living in abusive relationships often become isolated, and
it can be for different reasons. Either shame of their
situation and they don't want people to see them with
bruises and things like that, or they may pull away
away from family and friends because the abuser demands it

(49:03):
or requires that you know or convinces you that your
friends aren't good friends or whatever. Okay, but that isolation
comes into play well for me. It seems that they
both were kind of doling out the drama, whether with
cause or not, to this point, I know, I haven't
given you everything yet. And then the psychological shifts of

(49:25):
a battered woman, Okay, over time, they're going to show
shifts in their personality. Sometimes in their mental health. You'll
see increased depression, anxiety, guilt, shame, all of these things.
And I'm not quite seeing that either in Kayla's behavior.
And I will expand on this later on more in depth.

(49:45):
But the last one that I want to point out,
and this one sticks out to me, is that battered
women often miss work or other obligations. And the reason
that is is because they feel a drive to protect
not only themselves, but to protect children in these abusive relationships.

(50:06):
Abused people are commonly known to miss work or to
often cancel plans because they are just trying to keep
the peace at home. They want to stay back, they
want to protect the children. So that's where I come
to this conclusion of Okay, a court order to exchange
your child, I totally get it, But bringing additional kids
to the abuser really, like, really, you were so scared

(50:29):
that you ended up killing him. He's dead, but you
would hand over your five and seven year old to him.
This is where I started thinking, all right, something kind
of stinks here. Not necessarily at this point do I
think pure evil or anything at this juncture. But that said,
let's discuss the children for a second. When children are

(50:50):
involved in or they witness a traumatic violent event, it's
common for their account of things to matter in the
investigation into the police credit that's what the police did.

Speaker 2 (51:02):
What these kids saw could.

Speaker 1 (51:04):
Be beyond helpful, and that small children aren't necessarily going
to understand the full consequences if any of telling what
they saw. They don't know to filter, they don't know
that they shouldn't say certain things.

Speaker 2 (51:16):
They're little.

Speaker 1 (51:17):
So what's typically done is these kids are brought into
what's called a CAAC interview, or they go to the
Child Advocacy Center and interviews of these children are done there. Now,
these interviews are not going to be done like adults. Okay,
it's not an interrogation like or anything. It's designed that
these kids will remain feeling calm, they're not scared, they're

(51:38):
not pushed into answering these direct questions. The rooms are
fun and they're colorful, and there's crayons and couches and
stuffed animals, everything that a police station is not. And
this is on purpose. A trained interviewer will go in
with these kids and this did happen in this case
and interview the children. But it's more common versational in approach,

(52:02):
and it's after they've met this child for a little
while and they get comfortable with one another. But they
do not lead with their questioning, so they're a little
more vague, and the child's answer is all dependent on
what the child gives up. So, for example, the kids
saw their dad get shot, but the interviewer is not

(52:24):
going to flat out say, hey, what happened when your
mom shot your dad, because that's gonna that's so forceful,
that's so like jarring for the child.

Speaker 2 (52:32):
It would go more along the lines.

Speaker 1 (52:34):
Of, hey, you were supposed to go to a birthday
party yesterday, weren't you. Wow, what happened at the birthday party?
And then obviously the child would explain, oh, we never
went to the birthday party, Oh well why not?

Speaker 2 (52:45):
And then they'll say, oh my dad got shot, Oh wow,
what happened?

Speaker 1 (52:48):
And they let it snowball. But the child really takes
the lead on how they answer. Very conversational, not confrontational. Well,
like I said, the oldest child specifically I'm going to
talk about, was questioned in a CAC interview and the
answers that she gave were pretty solid insofar as what
they saw historically happened between their two parents. Everything in

(53:12):
this in this interrogation or this interview was videotaped, by
the way it always is, and this seven year old
daughter at one point during this, uh, this questioning, there
was a loud boom that happened outside of the room.

Speaker 2 (53:26):
I don't know what it was, but it was startling.
It was a loud boom.

Speaker 1 (53:30):
Well, after that noise was made, the child then starts
talking to the interviewer, saying, basically the loud noise reminded
her about the shooting that had taken place of her,
of her stepdad, and so as far as what she saw,
she tells the interviewer that she saw the door to

(53:52):
Thomas's truck, which is what they they called him, was Thomas.
They were in his truck. She said the door was
open whenever the shooting happened. She said that she did
not recall anything in terms of conversation between her mom
and Thomas. She didn't remember them saying anything, but she
did give an account of what was happening. And this

(54:14):
is a direct quote. She said, Thomas was in front
of mama. He was jumping at her, and then Mama
grabbed a gun and then she holds her hand up
kind of and she goes boom, boom, boom or click
click click, and kind of makes the noise of the gun.
Right after the boom, she said she saw a puff
of smoke and then Thomas fell back against his truck.

(54:35):
He grabbed his chest and then he collapsed to the ground.
That's when her mama called nine one one, and she
said her mama kept saying, I can't touch him, I
can't touch him. Before she then came over to the
truck and then really was trying to distract them from
seeing him on the ground. Now, again, those are my words,
not how the child said it. So the child's account

(54:57):
really seemed to line up perfectly with the video, minus
the blurry spot the viewer can't quite make out at
the exact time of what Thomas does at the driver's
side door of her mama, and the child was then
indirectly asked about any violence that she may have seen
between her mama and Thomas. You know. Ever, and the

(55:19):
child very matter of factly was able to recount it.
And she remembered her mama throwing a pan at Thomas
one time, like a frying pan, threw it at him.

Speaker 2 (55:29):
One time.

Speaker 1 (55:30):
She remembered Thomas jumping at her mom. Now, whether this
is the jumping at the shooting incident or a different time,
I'm not sure. I'm not even pretend I know, but
she did mention Thomas jumping at her mama. She also
remembered one time her mom got hit in the leg,
as well as her mom turning around and hitting Thomas. Now,

(55:52):
this is going to be important, don't forget that, because
this kid is a frickin' just genius. As far as
recounting things that she saw, she's a good witness. But
needless to say, whatever is going on, this child had
experienced domestic violence to some extent prior to and then
up to this shooting. And what she was saying was

(56:15):
that both of them were susceptible to pushing each other.

Speaker 2 (56:18):
Around at minimum is what I gather.

Speaker 1 (56:21):
So detectives now wanted to check the history between the two,
and more information would come to light that also backed
up the child's statements, specifically court records. We already know
that there was a custody hearing that had taken place,
given them each roughly fifty to fifty. But eight days
after the custody hearing, Thomas had requested a new hearing

(56:44):
about custody.

Speaker 2 (56:45):
That means just a week past and he was.

Speaker 1 (56:47):
Back wanting to go back before the judge. So detectives
are want to know why why would you need another
custody hearing just eight days later? But that's because Thomas
was now claiming to the courts that Kayla had turned
violet during their last child exchange. So I know you
want to know more specifics of what happened, because I
did two.

Speaker 2 (57:05):
So here's the answer.

Speaker 1 (57:07):
I wasn't there, I wasn't in court, and I wasn't
there when the exchange happened. But I can tell you
what Thomas's claim was. He said that Kyle slapped him
in the face during the child exchange. And I want
to stop here for a second.

Speaker 2 (57:22):
And say, look, we all know divorce sucks.

Speaker 1 (57:25):
It makes people sometimes act out of the side of
their normal character, and it also makes people on both
sides become almost all or nothing on who is right
and who is wrong. If you've been through divorce, you
know what I'm saying and what I'm trying to get
out here is I don't for one second think that
they pulled up and she got out, just walked up
slapped Thomas across the face out of nowhere. I could

(57:48):
be wrong, but I just don't believe that in my gut.
Usually the truth is going to lie in a dispute
somewhere between what both sides claim.

Speaker 2 (57:58):
He's going to put his.

Speaker 1 (57:59):
Best version for forward, She's going to put her best
version forward, and the truth is going to be somewhere
in between.

Speaker 2 (58:04):
Well, this was the court's job to decipher.

Speaker 1 (58:06):
Now. Thomas explained that at this exchange that had just
taken place, and now eight days had passed, he leaned
in to give these girls all a hug goodbye and
was going to leave for work. And when he did,
that's when Kayla turned around and slapped him on the
left side of the face. Now in rebuttal to that claim,
Kayla had a bit more to say as far as

(58:27):
what she says happened. She said that Thomas slammed her
leg in the car door, and in retaliation, that's when
she slapped him in the face. Now, this sounds personally
to me on par to the average objective person and
how they would think one thing probably sparked another. However,

(58:50):
this is a true crime podcast, y'all, and I think
we have an obligation to think like a juror. And
my question here is, what do you think is the
most probable thing that happened based on the evidence so far?

Speaker 2 (59:03):
Hopefully you thought.

Speaker 1 (59:05):
To yourself just now, I'm not actually quite sure what
happened or why it happened. I think I need a
little bit more information. And if you thought that, I'm
going to tell you I think that's completely appropriate because
only claims have been made by both sides at this point.
So would police be able to shure up this case

(59:25):
before trial? So many unanswered questions were there that a
jury would most certainly require answers to in order to convict.
Because I'm going to tell you this, they do place
Kayla under arrest and charge her with second degree murder
of her soon to be ex husband. So she sent

(59:48):
off to jail, but detectives realize they've got to have
more if they're going to get her convicted. Do you
think my question here is that do you think Kayla
was justified.

Speaker 2 (01:00:00):
In the shooting of Thomas?

Speaker 1 (01:00:02):
Do you think at this point in this story that
the case is solid enough that you, as a juror,
could convict Kayla for murdering Thomas? Because remember, if you're
charged with second degree murder in Louisiana, that carries a
maximum sentence of life in prison. It's a very steep penalty.
Where are you right now based on the evidence I've

(01:00:23):
given you, Well, if you think you know one way
or the other, you may want to just pump the
brakes real quick for a second, because police are about
to find out some information that's going to turn this
case completely upside down. Because one thing we know is
that failure to advise is the same thing as keeping
a secret. And you know what they say, two people

(01:00:44):
can always keep a secret as long as one of
them is dead.