Part Four | Did She Do it: The Investigation Into Karen Read

In this episode of Unspeakable, KJ brings you the 4th episode in this series, where she takes a deep dive into the death of Boston police officer John O'Keefe and brings you into the investigation of his girlfriend Karen Read to finally answer the question…Did she do it?

Timestamps
01:37 Baseball and Evidence
04:29 The Night of John's Death
09:13 The Missing Evidence
10:53 The Faraday Bag Mystery
15:50 In-Law Albert's Statements
27:48 Cell Phone Confusion
29:59 The Nature of the Calls
32:09 The Voicemail Evidence
38:32 The Group Text Messages
44:35 Carrie Roberts' Role
46:40 The Google Search Controversy
1:02:53 Deleted Evidence

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SOURCES
 https://www.cartwrightfuneral.com/obituaries/John-J-III-JJ-OKeefe obId=29113887 https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/236494717/john_j-o'keefe/photo  
https://whdh.com/news/john-okeefe-was-a-veteran-officer-and-devoted-father-figure/ https://www.today.com/popculture/officer-who-appeared-police-reality-show-bostons-finest-dies-2d11638373
https://www.patriotledger.com/story/news/2014/01/16/two-young-canton-kids-lose/40602672007 /https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2025/05/07/who-karen-read-trial-murder-case/83476129007/
https://www.masslive.com/news/2025/04/these-are-the-20-people-you-need-to-know-to-follow-karen-reads-2nd-trial.html

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to Unspeakable, a true crime podcast where I tell
stories of real crimes with real victims, whose cases are
so shocking that many are left wondering how is this
even real? I use my experiences in law enforcement corrections,
and combined with my years as a criminal justice educator,

(00:28):
dig deep into complex cases of evil acts, some so
evil many feel they are unspeakable. Warning, Unspeakable as intended

(00:52):
for mature audiences. If you are easily offended, then I'm
not your girl. Listening discretion is advised. Hey y'all, it's
kJ back with another episode of Unspeakable. I know y'all
have been rocking with me through this Karen Reid case
that has to do with John O'Keefe. So hopefully by
now you realize that there's a whole lot of players.
I know, I keep saying that you should be pretty
much having a grasp of who these major players are

(01:14):
and how they're related. So if you're unsure, or if
you like faces, maybe you're someone who likes to put
faces to the people, so you can help follow along.
On Patreon, I have posted a breakdown with faces so
that you can look at these people and you can
kind of assess what's going on, along with a million
other things, crime scene photos and whatnot. So that's for
your convenience and your understanding if you want it. If not,

(01:36):
don't look at it. Doesn't bother me. But I want
to warn you before I start here that this is
a part four. So if you have not listened to
parts one, two, and three, this one's not gonna make sense.
So please go back listen to one through three and
then jump in right here with us on part four.
So now that I'm approaching this, this wrap up of
this of this series, I got to thinking about baseball. Okay,

(01:59):
And I know you're like, what why I should think
of baseball? Well, if you're not a fan of baseball,
no worries. The point I'm gonna make is still it's
still going to resonate, I think because now in our
age of instant replays in sports, Okay, a coach can
contest a call if they think the officials got that
call wrong. But here's the thing. Whenever they're trying to

(02:22):
see if they're going to overturn a call that's been made,
there has to be overwhelming evidence that the call that
was made was wrong. It's got to be overwhelmingly clear.
It's not that they could have got it wrong. It's
that it's overwhelmingly clear that that call was wrong. The
runner that was called out at first base, if it's
a close call, when they go look at that instant replay,

(02:44):
you have to clearly see the runner's foot touch the
bag right before the glove closes of the first basement.
The problem with a lot of what I'm going to
be talking about in this portion of the series is
that we don't have the vantage point to prove one
hundred percent without a shadow of a doubt that what
is being seen on video necessarily dictates the argument of

(03:09):
what's being claimed to be happening. So it's just not
going to be as clear as what I'm trying to
tell you. You're gonna have to be the person that
decides while you're listening to this which you most agree with.
I'll kind of present you sometimes with two options, and
i want you, as the listener to decide, because it's
not going to be crystal clear, overwhelming like a sports replay. Okay,

(03:31):
so you have a job to do while you're listening.
So I've spoken a bit about the inconsistencies of whether
ATF Brian Higgins was at the in law Albert's home
the morning the in law Alberts and the mccabs were
being interviewed by Sergeant lank Well, it would really matter, Okay.

(03:52):
I made a point to say that that timeline, no
one was actually quite clear on what was actually happening specifically,
and it would really matter with respect to the fact
that it was discovered that ATF Higgins was on camera
as having gone to the Canton PD in the wee
early morning hours of John's death. So here's the argument

(04:16):
that's coming your way. Basically, someone or something or somehow
John O'Keefe had to be hurt before one am. That's
clear and convincing that that has to be the case.
So the question is really was it Karen that she
hit him? Was it ATF Higgins? Was it in law

(04:37):
Brian Albert? Even Colin Albert, which is Pizza Albert's son.
But I'm not going to go in depth on Colin
because look, he was seventeen. If you've been following this
case for a while, you know that he was brought
up a lot, but he was seventeen whenever that happened. Plus,
I'm gonna tell you that text messages, in my opinion,

(04:57):
vouched for Colin not being a part of what happened
to John real quick to get it out of the way.
There were texts between Colin Albert and his cousin which
have been would have been Ali McCabe, and he was
asking Ali if she was going to come pick him
up and bring him home, and those were provided to police.

(05:19):
Police looked at those and at eleven fifty four he
said to her, you can get me now if it's easier,
and she said, I'm driving people home right now, and
he said, word get me after And then at twelve ten,
Ali wrote here and he answered her and said okay.
So I know kids, I know teenagers, and he's not

(05:40):
going to say okay and then not go to the car,
especially when he was waiting on her. I don't think
it's plausible that he was, you know, like fighting with
John or something and then went to the car randomly
and she didn't see anything. And I just, I personally
am not behind the whole theory that some people say
that maybe Colin got in a fight with John. So
I just I'm not going to spend a lot of
time on it now. Karen said she didn't hit him

(06:02):
and she was gone by then, and this is verified
according to the GPS in her vehicle, combined with the
fact that her cell phone connected to John's home WiFi
shortly thereafter. So the time that they're trying to say
that the state is trying to say that Karen would
have hit him, it kind of doesn't give much time, okay,

(06:26):
because of what I just told you. So remember the
the flirty texts between Karen and ATF Higgins that I
mentioned last episode, and the fact that she had kissed
him once. Well, Karen told ATF. Higgins that John suspected
that something might be going on between them, and she

(06:46):
said that John had even showed her at one point
ring camera footage from whenever she walked ATF. Higgins out
of the house when he had come over one time.
So that's under did that that happened, and Karen wouldn't
have a reason to lie about that because it doesn't

(07:08):
look good for her in my assessment of these things.
So the defense was starting to think that maybe at F.
Higgins may have hurt John after possibly confronting John, or
John confronting him about his interactions with Karen. And then
it all boiled over that night after Karen dropped him off.

(07:31):
So that now begs some questions about at F. Higgins's
actions the night of John's death. Number one, why on
earth when they found this out, would you go to
your law enforcement place of work at one a m.
After an admittedly heavy, heavy night of drinking. That sounds

(07:55):
dumb as shit If I'm being brutally honest, okay, like
by total luck and probably divine intervention. Okay, I'll be honest.
I'm married to a man that is sober and he
doesn't drink. Thus, I personally have my own designated driver
because this heifer ain't drive in even after one drink.

(08:16):
I'm not gonna do it. Why Because it's not worth
it to me. I have too much to lose and
I don't want to risk other people's lives, So I
don't drink and drive. And now here we have a
police officer pounding drinks and then going to work when
he's not even on duty, nor is it even his
honestly his like place of legit business that he works for.

(08:40):
He just has an office there because he's friends with
the chief. So what could possibly be that urgent that
you would even do this after a night of heavy drinking.
It doesn't really jibe that you would do that. And
then the other question becomes where exactly did he go
and why did he go there? All this kind of

(09:00):
seems pretty curious. So here's a breakdown of that for
you ATF. Higgins because a lot of this is called
on camera. ATF. Higgins is seen arriving at the Canton
PD at roughly one o'clock in the morning. He wasn't
there long either, y'all. He left after like thirty minutes
or so. So when he was asked initially why did

(09:22):
you go to Canton PD at one am? He said,
he went to quote, fulfill some administrative duties. That's when
they originally asked him. And so it's kind of like
when you were blitzed from a night of drinking. Knofam,
I'm not buying that. That doesn't that's stupid. Who would
do that? So when more detailed, pointed questions were again

(09:46):
sent his way, then he got a lot more specific.
He said, well, I was moving some vehicles at the
PD because the chief had requested it before he had
gotten on to me. Because of where I parked my
vehicle that the plows, the snow plows were not able
to make it through that parking lot if I parked
on the outer spots of the parking lot. So you

(10:07):
do see him on camera. He arrives in his jeep
and he parks. You see him go into the building.
He goes down a hall, he enters for a few
minutes into a side room that doesn't have cameras, and
then he goes back out to the vehicles in the
parking lot. So the question was like, well, what are
you doing in the room. It wasn't quite clear. He

(10:27):
says he was getting the keys to those other vehicles
because he left them on his desk, so other people,
if they needed the keys, could move the car. So
I mean, that's absolutely plausible. But he had already been
there earlier. If you remember, I told you he and
in law Brian Albert went to that funeral in New
York and then they came back. They went back to

(10:50):
the police station, and he acknowledged, yeah, we went to
the Canton Pede. I went there and I got my
personal jeep and I dropped the work truck. So then
it's like, okay, well why didn't you move them when
you were there, like you knew a blizzard was coming in,
and you were already there. Why didn't you move them
then before going out for a night of drinking and

(11:11):
then come back at one am in the morning to
move them when you had already been there and it
was out of your way. And he would argue, because
it's been a long day. It was a long, hard day.
I wanted to go out, I was hungry, I was
ready to go relax and have some drinks, and I
didn't want to move the cars again. Okay, So this
is where my personal issues are raised with that statement.
If you left the keys on the desk so that

(11:32):
the cars could be moved if someone needed to, then
they could have moved them. He didn't need to go
the whole reason he left the keys there. And the
other issue I have is that he never went back
into the building to return the keys back into the building.
So if you had to go there to get the keys,

(11:53):
then it seems to me that you would move the
cars and then put the keys back, because those aren't
your cars, those are the state's cars. But he never
even went and put the So the other thing is
when I go back and I'm watching the video, He
never moved any cars. He went out and he got
some items from his work truck. He put those items
into his personal vehicles, but cars never moved. And so

(12:16):
I thought maybe I was tripping when I first watched
the video, like what did I miss? But I'm not.
He did not move any cars. So this is something
that the average Joe would not know, but I'm gonna
bring it up for you because I want you to
know about it. And it's a thing called a Faraday bag.
Do you know about those? If you're in law enforcement,
you might know about him. If not, it might be

(12:37):
new to you, but it's super important for an investigator,
which ATF Higgins is alcohol, tobacco on firearms investigator. Okay,
this would be something that he had. So in brevity,
these are bags that are carried and I would say
a standard practice by anybody that's an investigative level. And

(12:57):
what they're for is that they maintain electronic devices by
making it impossible for the phones to be accessed other ways,
Like they can't access a wireless signal, so like cellular,
Wi Fi, Bluetooth, it blocks all of that, so the
phone can't access that. Why would that need to happen
well thieves or accomplices in a crime that might involve

(13:21):
some type of electronic they can potentially remotely wipe data
from a device, and Faraday bags are used to prevent
this from happening, and they ensure the integrity of digital evidence.
But they also are a weird thing to put in
your personal vehicle, Like, why would you do that? If

(13:45):
that even happened. I can't tell you exactly what he transferred,
but I can tell you it wasn't a huge bag,
but it also wasn't a ten ninety bag, so like,
maybe he wanted to put that in his get, but
why Well then it's like, well, wait a minute, maybe
he put his own phone in it, maybe so that
people wouldn't know his identity of where he was his

(14:05):
whereabouts later on. It's just kind of a working theory.
And it was also suggested that maybe he wasn't just
getting a large Duffel bagasse it looks like it does
look like a large Duffel bag, but some people say
that's not a Duffel bag, that's a breakdown spineboard bag.
So I looked into that. I don't personally think that

(14:28):
bag looks like that, but it was brought up either way,
No one really knows what exactly he was transferring that night, regardless,
he never moves any cars and he gets in his
jeep and he drives away. But there's other purposes that
he might could have gone there, assuming maybe something did

(14:49):
happen to John at that house, and that's kind of
the avenue we're going down here. He would have access
to the dispatch nine when one center because he had
to walk past it. He did I'll tell you, I'll
tell you this. He did say that he didn't go
in nine one one, But then at one point it
was said that he opened the door and just said
hey and waved and said hello, and then he left. Well,

(15:10):
if he waved and he said hello, that's actually kind
of a big deal, because do y'all remember from the
previous episode who I told you was working in the
nine one one center that night? It was Sergeant Good.
Sergeant Good was the man who called Sergeant Lank to
respond to John's body. Five hours after Higgins stopped by

(15:31):
the office to move cars that he didn't actually move.
He was questioned and he said, oh, yeah, I did
see ATF Higgins when he got to the station early
that morning, and he said, I really wasn't sure why
he was there. He wasn't on duty and we didn't
call him in for anything, so I don't know why

(15:51):
he was there, but I did see him there. So
the question kind of became, well, wait a minute, is
it possible that Higgins stopped by to see if nine
one one had already gotten a call about something that
happened at that thirty four Fairview? Maybe just assessing to
see if he had time to go back to Fairview

(16:13):
to maybe move John's body or something of that nature
if he had been involved in it. Because again, there's
a lot of unknowns at this point, but it sure
did seem plausible. Also, the entire time that he was
at Canton p D. He was on the phone a
majority of that time with somebody, And are you curious

(16:34):
as to who he was talking to? I was, who
are you talking to at one o'clock in the morning
at Canton ped what? Maybe it was in law Brian Albert?
They what if something happened and they're talking to each other.
What if he went in waved hello just to see
if they're like, damn, man, you know John got hit
or something like that. But when that didn't happen, they

(16:56):
knew the call hadn't come in yet. Well, I wanted
to know, and maybe you want to know too. Maybe
you're like, well, who was he on the phone with?
Let's find out. Well, that will never happen because ATF
Higgins got rid of his cell phone. After that happened.

(17:17):
How did this go on? I don't mean that night
he tossed it. Follow me ATF. Higgins said he met
with state Trooper Proctor and Trooper Buchanic. Buchanic was Procter's
supervisor on February third. That was just a couple days
after John died. He died on the twenty ninth. He
provided his text messages to the state police. They had

(17:38):
not requested them. He volunteered them. Here you can. You
can have these text messages since I was there that night.
But there was something that ATF Higgins did not mention
about when he gave those messages up to the state.
He didn't mention that he accessed special ATF software to

(17:59):
extra information from his phone. I can't say whether this
happened or not. The next part. We know he did
access the software, but that software does and I confirmed this.
I called and asked somebody in the know about this,
and he confirmed it. This would also have allowed him
to manipulate the messages on his phone prior to handing

(18:21):
them over. And for the record, I want you to
know that because I asked, I wanted to know could
he have done something, and absolutely that's a possibility. After
he hooked it up to that ATF software machine and
extracted those messages for the state, he also then said, well, yeah,
I got rid of my phone shortly thereafter because I

(18:42):
had to get aw I needed to get a new one. So,
as an ATF agent who knew by that point on
February third, he knew that he was in question and
that he needed his text messages and they were going
to be looking into all that. He knew this. He
was an investigator, and he went and did all of

(19:03):
that knowing what he knows about investigations. And by the way,
this wasn't brought up really, but I want to tell
you this. Using ATF equipment for what would be deemed
quote unquote personal use is a violation of policy. Anywhere
you go, you cannot use any equipment for personal use.
Let me give you an example real quick. You know

(19:25):
police officers have their CAD their computer in their car.
They cannot just look up anybody's name to see where
they live or see stuff about them. It's tracked, it's logged,
you know what I mean. And so you don't have
a right to I'm going to I don't know if
the word's abused, but I guess it is abuse your
powers because you want to know about somebody in that manner.

(19:47):
But yet you think it's appropriate that you can use
your phone when you're a witness slash suspect and an investigation,
go download your materials and turn it over and then
get rid of the phone. That's idiocracy if you're an
investigator to even attempt that. Secondly, what he did in
that moment, if I were a supervisor, that would warrant

(20:09):
impeding or interfering with an investigation. Charges should have been
brought on him. And I even spoke to some law
enforcement supervisors I know whenever I was thinking about all this,
and they agreed with me. No, no, no, no, no,
you're not the investigator on this. You are a witness
slash suspect. Also, if you're going to get rid of

(20:29):
a phone because you need a new one, you're an
ATF agent, turn the son of a gun off and
put it in a drawer until you're cleared, and then
get rid of it. You didn't need to get rid
of it. You wanted to get rid of it. You
knew better. So the data Higgins ATF. Higgins said he
quote unquote handed over, in my opinion, sounds like it

(20:52):
was just an honor system that they just were going
to believe that what he gave them was what all
there was. The very data that was given to the
state to look at was what he provided them. A
possible suspect in a dead CoP's death, with years of
experience got rid of his phone, then they should go

(21:16):
and check and see what they can find out. But
now they can't because he got rid of it, y'all.
That stinks all day long. Well there's a way around this, though,
right because they could go get in law Albert, Brian
Albert's phone and they can check his records to see
was he on the phone with ATF Higgins. They could

(21:36):
just kind of reverse engineer it. You know, it didn't
rocket science, And you would be right if you were
thinking that to yourself. They could they could if he
too hadn't gotten rid of his cell phone just one
day before a court order was issued to preserve his phone.
I tell y'all that I do not believe in coincidences.

(21:58):
Do you do you believe coincidences like this? One day
before a court order is issued, he gets rid of
the phone. Two potential suspects ditch their phones, and both
of them seasoned the cops at that come on and ATF.
Higgins would later be asked if he called anyone while

(22:19):
he was at the police station, and he was like, no,
I mean if they were like, oh, so you didn't
call anybody, and he was like, well, I mean if
I did, it would have been a butt dial, because
records would show that at some point in this questionable timeframe,
they were able to see that ATF Higgins did call

(22:39):
Brian Albert, but he said it was a butt dial,
It wasn't a real call. Well, the question becomes with
your face, how do you butt dial somebody with a
phone to your face? That's weird And speaking of in
law Brian Albert. Okay, this is all about his house,
but I haven't told you much about what he said
in his interview. So so starting with let's go to

(23:02):
the day that John died. He confirmed that when he
was downstairs and that Sergeant Lank came into the home.
Whenever he was questioned about it, all he said was, yes,
Sergeant Lank was there, and they're like, by himself, he
was like, yeah, it was just sergeant Lank the very
first time that they spoke. And remember they're trying to
a lot of people are trying to say, oh, no, no,

(23:23):
that's not what happened, that's not what happened. Well, when
he was questioned, he said, yeah, it was just sergeant Lank,
and this was that meeting that was not recorded and
no notes were taken. So it's kind of hard to
argue that that didn't happen whenever you didn't realize what
you were being asked and you told the truth at
that moment. He also said that he called ATF. Higgins

(23:44):
before the cops returned the second time to talk to him,
so Lank came in the house, they talked. We have
no clue what that was about. And then he says
when Lank walked back outside, he called ATF. Higgins And
then the next time Lank came in with another officer
and they spoke again. So he said that the only

(24:05):
time that he realized anything was going on back up
before that was whenever he looked out of his bedroom
window after his sister in law, Jennifer McCabe, busted into
the room and woke them up, and he said, I
went and looked out of the window. I saw a
cop car. I saw some emergency vehicles. He said, I
couldn't tell you exactly which ones I saw, but that's

(24:26):
what happened. Later on in this questioning, he says that
he went to his sister in law, Jennifer McCabe's house
later that day and it just so happened that she
was being interviewed by the police when that happened, and
they're like, so you show up whenever she's being interviewed,
and he's like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, he said, but

(24:48):
that's just because I knew she had found John's body
and I wanted to go comfort her. But he said,
I did know the police were there, but I was
just going to comfort her. So they asked some more
questions about that. He said that Jennifer McCabe and Matt McCabe,
her husband, were spoken to separately in that home and

(25:11):
that it happened while he went upstairs, and that he
had no idea of what they were talking about, and
that you know, blah blah blah blah blah. Well, I
find that completely laughable that you just randomly showed up
to comfort her. You're in the exact same house being
questioned by police, and y'all both are considered witnesses slash suspects,

(25:35):
and they let that goes down in the same house.
He said that he had no knowledge when he was
asked about ATF. Higgins and the flirtatious texts between he
and Karen, he said, I didn't know anything about that. Well,
then on February third, that's when State Trooper Proctor interviewed
in law Albert and his wife another time. Okay, have

(26:00):
you ever watched television ever if you liked true crime
ever in your life and heard the saying that the
first forty eight hours is the most crucial timeframe in
an investigation. Hell, there's a show called the first forty
eight because that is the most crucial time that you
gather all of the information in an investigation after something happens. Okay,

(26:20):
so the question here is if it happened on January
twenty ninth. Why did you wait multiple days before you
even went and questioned the people that the very body
was found in front of their house. It's odd to
me that you didn't even ask them. But another question,

(26:41):
regardless of that, is if you knew something was going on,
because he said he looked out of his window, right,
why didn't you come outside when all of that commotion
was happening the morning John was found. Okay, you didn't
come outside even after Jen mckab woke you up, y'all
didn't come outside to see what was going on. And

(27:01):
his answer was, well, we just didn't hear it. We
didn't know what was going on. We were both asleep
and whenever she woke me up, that's whenever I went downstairs.
And then he's like, so, so Sergeant Lank was there
at that point, and we questioned, well, you said that
you looked out your window, so like, I'm trying to
understand this, I'm really trying to understand this. So they asked, okay,

(27:21):
well what happened the night before? And this is Brian
in law, Brian's account mixed with phone data because I
want it to be more cohesive as I'm telling it
to you. He says, when they got home, he went
upstairs and he put his phone in the bed with
him to sleep at night. And they asked, so you
don't you know, you don't put your phone on a

(27:42):
charger at night, and he was like, I mean, no,
not always. Sometimes you just throw it in the bed
with me at night. Ask yourself what you do with
your cell phone at night? Maybe you don't charge it?
I do, Jimothy, you're in here. Do you charge your
phone at night? You don't, really, So you you listened
to you put your cell phone on your like nightstand

(28:04):
and just listen to it while you're falling asleep, but
you don't charge it while it's on the night sand Wow.
All right, So there you go, two differing opinions on
what happens with cell phones. Well then asked, you know,
riddle me this. Why on the phone records does it

(28:25):
show that you called ATF. Higgins at two twenty two am.
He says, oh, I didn't call him, And they're like, yeah,
you did. I mean, it's in it's in the record
that you did. So he goes, oh, well, I must
have butt dialed ATF. Higgins. But y'all this was on

(28:46):
an iPhone, and so when this was further pressed, he
then says, okay, fine, I was having sex with my
wife and I guess I accidentally called him, butt dialed him,
sex dialed him. Whatever the hell, we're gonna call this
right now, so let's break it down a little bit more.
The call lasted. The first call lasted like two seconds,

(29:09):
but then there was seventeen seconds later Brian Higgins called
in law Brian back in law Albert back. He called
him back, and when he called back, that call lasted
twenty two seconds. So if you butt dialed him and
then he called you back, how was there a twenty

(29:30):
two second call after that? If it was just you
weren't answering the phone, And all in law Albert could
say was he didn't know. He said, I did not
know that ATF. Higgins ever called me that morning, and
then the next morning this becomes interesting. The next morning
he said he didn't ever recall seeing a missed call

(29:51):
from ATF. Higgins, and a voicemail wasn't left either. He
was like, I just don't know what you're talking about.
That there wasn't even a voicemail, So there was no
voicemail and you're claiming there was no missed call for
twenty two seconds, then what the hell happened? If he
would have said there was a voicemail, then I would say, oh, okay, well,
I guess he left a voice, you know, but dial
maybe there was a twenty two second just quiet type

(30:15):
message okay. But he said there was no voicemail. Something
happened for twenty two seconds, he admitted. He says, I
was awake because I was having sex with my wife,
but I never heard the phone ring. So then it's like, okay, well,
maybe his phone was on silent, like let's really talk
this through. But that didn't make sense either, because he
had said earlier in the interview that the whole reason

(30:36):
he had the phone in the bed with him was
because of his kids, and if there was an emergency,
he wanted his kids to be able to call him. Well,
if your phone is on silent, then you're not going
to hear your kids call. But then I got to thinking, okay,
well I have my phone set on silent at night,
except I have three people that if they call me

(30:57):
three times back to back to back, the call then
will come through and it'll be loud. Okay, but this
is not the pattern. You know that we can prove
happened or would have happened because nobody else called. Okay. Also,
when he says no voicemail was left, I need y'all
to know this, I'm gonna call my dad out. Okay.
My stepdad butt dials me all the damn time. All

(31:20):
the time he butt dials me. But the difference here
is that he always leaves me freaking voicemails. Okay. And
I sit there and he's talking to people at the
grocery store about how great candaloops are, or I hear
noises of him getting in and out of the car.
You know, it's obviously a voicemail from a butt dial.
But he said he already said there were no voicemails

(31:40):
on his phone, so it's just not jiving. They didn't
talk and there is no voicemail, yet the phone shows
doubt that there was a call. Here's the other caveat.
He said he had a four digit passcode on his phone.
You know, your phone locks automatically, so to open the phone,
you have to swipe and then either your face can

(32:04):
unlock it or you have to put in the four
digit coat. So now That means that you're having sex
with your wife and you accidentally swipe the phone open
while you're having sex with your wife, and then you
either accidentally had the phone in your face to unlock it,
or you accidentally hit a four digit code and then

(32:26):
butt dialed accidentally ATF Higgins. Okay, that's some weird type
of sex going on. I don't know what that's about.
But he says, oh, we I'll butt dial people a lot.
So he also told them that ATF Higgins the next
morning whenever he saw him after John died, he said,
I told him I may have butt dialed you last night.

(32:50):
But then again, how would he know that he butt
dialed ATF Brian Higgins if he didn't even know that
he had a missed call from ATF Brian Higgins, Because
you wouldn't see a butt dial, y'all. You wouldn't see
an outgoing call on your phone, and then you certainly
would have noticed first the red button on a missed

(33:11):
call on an iPhone on the phone thing, Are y'all
following what I'm saying? I hope so like that. That
doesn't make any sense whatsoever. He said when he woke
awoke to jen it was like Jennifer McCabe. He said
it was about seven twenty in the morning when when
he later called Brian Higgins, and then he said that
call lasted about two minutes. So here's another problem with

(33:34):
that being said. I told John past episodes, but I'm
gonna remind you Brian Albert's brother, Chris Albert. Okay, he
was tight with John. Chris Albert was tight with the
dead guy in the front yard, that was his good friend.

(33:55):
But yet Brian Albert finds out that John is dead
in his front yard and he doesn't call his family.
He doesn't call the brother that is tight with the
dead man in his front yard, his brother, he doesn't
call him. He calls atf Brian Higgins. That is weird

(34:20):
to me, first person, I'm calling his family, you know,
if something crazy happens. And he says, oh, well, the
reason I called him was because we had been all
out together the night before and I thought he might
want to know, like it's just weird. Maybe you disagree
and that's okay, And he says, oh well, all we
did was talk about what was going on with John,

(34:41):
and that was about it. But I want to give
you some more phone out of here, and I hope
you're following this, okay. After he spoke to him and
he says he broke broke it all down and told ATF.
Higgins what he knew at that point. Then ATF. Higgins
calls him back a few minutes later and they spoke
for five more minutes. Okay, so they must have a

(35:04):
lot to talk about, but then it goes even more Higgins.
They hang up. Then Brian Albert calls Higgins again and
they speak for twelve minutes, and then Homeowner Albert called
his Canton p D detective brother Kevin Albert for about

(35:27):
one minute. Then Chief Berkowitz called back to Brian Albert
about fifty minutes later, but he missed that call, so
Brian then called the chief back five minutes later after
he saw it, and they spoke for a few minutes

(35:50):
and hung up. Then Homeowner Albert called his sister in
law Jen McCabe at eleven thirty and then Jen called
him back around twelve fifty and they spoke again. And
then Brian called Canton PD detective brother Kevin again around

(36:13):
two pm and they spoke. Then he called Brian Higgins ATF.
Higgins around three twenty for six minutes. Then Brian Albert
called the chief the following day and he spoke to
him about one pm. They spoke for about five minutes.
He called Jen again. He then called the chief on

(36:36):
February first, and then he continued to speak to ATF
Brian Higgins for a couple of more days after that.
So there certainly are a whole lot of calls between
the major players in this case speaking to each other
and then speaking to law enforcement, and then speaking back

(36:57):
to each other. And I want to remind you again
that Canon p D had already been recused from this case,
so in law Albert as well as ATF Brian Higgins
at this point should have been both considered witnesses slash suspects.
Yet the chief of police is talking with both of them,
and then they are all talking to one another. And

(37:19):
I'll get to this further on in a minute, but
the evidence in this case was also at Canton PD. Okay,
it's being how's there, and that's going to play a
role in another issue whenever I'm speaking about that a
little bit later on. So we can pretty much establish
that there's some something going amiss here at what I

(37:40):
just told you. So what about Carrie Roberts, the one
who was with Karen and Jim McCabe whenever they found
John's body. Well, the very same day that Carrie found
John with them, she was interviewed by police at her house.
So Carrie's interviewed right then, but not the other people.
That's kind of interesting too. Well, some days later before

(38:03):
John's funeral, Jim McCabe called Carrie about meeting up again
at Jim McCabe's house to try to go over a
timeline of events to see if they could possibly figure
out what happened to John. So Carrie says sure, She
goes over to Jen McCabe's house and they sat together
writing out a timeline of events when there was a

(38:24):
knock on the door. So to their surprise, it was
two state troopers and they had some questions to ask
in regards to the investigation. But here's the kicker. Two
women who found a dead body together were now wait
for it, drumroll, please, interviewed as potential witnesses and suspects

(38:47):
in the same home, just like whenever the in law
Alberts were there, but in a separate room and had
no idea what the mccabs were saying. Well, it's kind
of like the same thing happened here because they were
interviewed in the same home, but in separate rooms. Because
we all know that houses are just completely soundproof once
you go from one room to the other. Right, yeah, right, Okay,

(39:11):
So the women who were sitting together trying to, based
on what you believe, either understand a timeline or maybe
create a timeline. That's up to you to decide. They're together.
And I am of the opinion that it was tactical
on Jim McCabe's part for her to call carry over

(39:35):
to go over a timeline. I think it was very tactical,
and I think that she wanted to put things in
Carrie's head. It's a personal opinion. Obviously you may not agree.
But why do I say this then, Because Carrie at
first had told police in that interview that Karen said
I hit him, I hit him, But later on, under

(39:57):
intense scrutiny, she admitted that she did not actually hear
Karen Reid say I hit him, I hit him, but
that Jen McCabe had reminded her that Karen said it.
So I find that Carrie was a pawn in all

(40:18):
of this from the get go, and she was being
manipulated by Jen McCabe in some fashion. And I'll add
another reason why. I think that while Jen McCabe was
quote in another room as Carrie was being interviewed, and
she said, well I couldn't hear what Carrie was saying.
They put me in another room while she was being
interviewed by police. Well that would be okay if her

(40:41):
text message history didn't say a few things that it said.
For instance, while that was going on, there was a
group text message that Jen McCabe had and in that
group it was like a family group. Okay, So by family,
I mean it's got the mccabs in it, and it's
got the in law Albert's in it, and so it's

(41:04):
family in this group. In this group text. Now, I
certainly don't want to read to you. I don't. I
know you don't want to be read to. But I
also don't want to infer anything more or less than
what was actually said. So I'm going to read you
about six messages. Here we go. So this is the
day that John died. Okay, I want to give you
perspective here. The day that John died. Jennifer McCabe texted

(41:25):
her sister, Nicole, which is in law Albert Nicole, and
she said, Carrie talked to the cops. Kept it simple.
Nicole responded back, Okay, try and get some sleep. We'll
talk tomorrow. And then a little while later, Jim McCabe
texted her sister again any updates, and her sister responded back,

(41:46):
we'll get more information tomorrow. Don't want to text about it.
And then jen said to her sister Nicole, right, and
then Nicole said to Jennifer, Okay, text me in the
morning or if you hear anything late. Well, if you,
in my opinion, if you didn't want to text about it,

(42:06):
that means that you've got stuff you want to say
that you don't want anyone to potentially see. Right, And
you're married to a detective, so you can decide though.
All right. But two days later, in that same groom
family group chat that includes the Albert and the mccabes,
this is when it gets interesting to me, all right,
in law Brian sends a message to everyone in the

(42:27):
group that says Julie, which is the pizza shop owner
Chris Albert's wife. Julie said Channel four is in the
pizza shop. Okay, So Julie was there at work or
at the pizza shop, and then told the whole family.
You know, oh my god, the media is here from
this point forward. I'm gonna say who's speaking only, but

(42:50):
I want you to know that it's to the group. Okay,
So whoever speaking, it's going to the whole group. So
Matt McCabe says, tell Chris, meaning Chris Albert, Pizza Albert owner. Okay,
tell Chris to ask some questions. Tell them the guy
never went in the house in law Brian Albert exactly.
Jen McCabe, omg in law Nicole Albert. I assume they're

(43:14):
there to eat, but if Julie is there, ask her
what the deal is? Ask her to ask them what
the deal is. Jen McCabe ask if we heard she's
in a mental hospital, and then she adds, Carrie is
here at my house. To go over the timeline, the
mental hospital is in reference to Karen Reid. Okay, so

(43:36):
she wants whoever Julie Albert ask if we've heard that
Karen Reid is in a mental hospital, like trying to
allude to the fact she must be crazy and then
tells the group and Carrie is here at my house
to go over the timeline. In law Brian responds, I
did hear that, Jim McCabe. We handed the phone to Carrie.

(44:00):
So she's updating the family that investigators have called for
whatever reason. And now Carrie's got the phone. Why would
they care? You know, why does that even matter? And
then Jen McCabe says, she's telling him talking about Trooper Proctor.
She's telling him everything, all the stuff. I don't know

(44:22):
what that meant, but all the stuff, y'all. Matt McCabe, yep.
If she pleads out, it's over. She fights it, It's
gonna be an episode. Who do you think he's talking about?
He's talking about Karen Reid in Lonaicle, Albert says, sitting
separate in law Brian. Albert says, okay. Then Jen McCabe says,

(44:45):
cops here again, and this is in reference to her
being with Carrie at the mccab house. Okay, the cops
are here again in Lonaicle, Albert says, call us after
so why are they so interested? You have to ask them?
Why are they so interested in everything that Carrie is
saying to the cops. It to me sounds like she's
been fed information. And I don't think that she's doing

(45:07):
it on purpose, but I think that Carrie Roberts was
kind of manipulated because she was so traumatized by what happened,
and Jen McKay was kind of feeding her information as
well as the other Alberts. So Matt McCabe says, this
girl could write a book, and he's saying this in
reference to Carrie talking to the police. She could write
a book. And Jen McCay responds, I love it. She's

(45:31):
telling them everything. And she says this because the mccabes
could hear the cops talking to Karen, because, like I said,
they were in the same house, but in a different room.
Why would you text that unless you were listening to
what was being said. She was listening to what was
being said in law Nicole Albert says good, and Matt McKay,

(45:53):
being snarky, says, we're gonna miss the basketball game at
this rate. It's proof to me that they are all
trying to verify the story that's being told and that
they're excited that Carrie Roberts is repeating things that were
said to her. I really don't think Carry Roberts is
a bad person. I don't. I think that she just
got manipulated and didn't know it. Because there were other

(46:14):
times too when they were talking that they pretty much
were kind of doubting her about like she talks a lot,
you know, how she is, so we got to do this,
and that they just didn't seem to respect her the
way that I would respect my friends. I wouldn't talk
about them like that. Now. I'm not sure if you
agree with what I'm telling you here, but a lot
of people would agree that this is what collusion looks like.

(46:37):
Collusion to verify that we're all going to say the
same thing. And the fact that they were supposed to
be in that other room yet they were listening and
reporting back to their family members sure does give credence
to that thought process too. And it would also become
later interesting that Michael Proctor Trooper Proctor interviewed Jim McCabe,

(46:57):
who in that interview, and this is also reflected in
the report that was written at the time about the interview.
Jen says that she told Karen the morning that John
was missing to come to her house, so it wasn't
like Carrie Roberts said, Jen, come over, let's try to
figure out what happened to John. No. Jen McCabe, who's

(47:20):
the sister of where John was found, told Carrie to
come to her house so that they could go over
a timeline. But her words were actually create a timeline.
So she also said in that report that was written
that she saw Karen Reid's tail light whenever they left
Karen's vehicle at John's to go look for him, that

(47:40):
she saw Karen's tail light was cracked. Okay, But Jen
McCabe now, when that was brought up to her attention
that hey, previously you said you just saw the tail
light cracked. Well, she says now that that's not true.
She says both things actually aren't true. She says, I
never told Karen to come to my house, which is

(48:04):
what she originally said. She changed her story. And then
number two, she said that the tail light was cracked
and it was missing pieces. But that's not what she
originally said in the original report. She just said the
tail light was cracked. Now she says that that's not true.
And the thing about it is her story never changed

(48:24):
until a little bit after John was found dead. You
know what I'm saying, Like a little while after they
started doing investigating and requestioning things. She also, whenever she
was interviewed the day of John's death, strangely did ask
the police, have y'all spoken to Carry yet? Why would

(48:44):
you need to know that? Why would it matter to
know if they had spoken to Carry yet? You both
were there when the body was found. Why do you
care if they spoke to Carry yet? Just tell your
story well, knowing what you know now since I've laid
it out for you. It was seeming like she was
wanting to make sure her statements aligned with Carrie's if

(49:06):
they had already spoken to her. Otherwise it wouldn't matter
if they had spoken to her or not. So whenever
the police went to get video from John's home ring camera,
it would serve a great purpose. Most importantly, it would
clear up whether the tail light was just cracked that
morning or if it was missing pieces, and they were

(49:27):
able to get the video, but they would realize that
they would have some missing footage whenever they went and
they got the video from from John's ring camera. So
the footage that was missing was from eleven thirty the
night before. For a couple of hours, so the camera
did though show at five am the morning John was

(49:50):
realized to be missing. When Karen backed out of the house,
she actually bumped John's car that was on video. And
still this day, no one's really clarified what happened or
why that section of tape was mysteriously missing. But I
don't know that anything happened in that timeframe that would
matter anyway. I mean, we know that she went home,

(50:11):
and I'll tell you why in a minute, and we
know that when she left it was called on camera.
So it was brought up to the police that Karen
had stopped by the house the evening after John died
to see the kids, meaning his kids, and went upstairs
with her dad for about fifteen minutes. So John was

(50:31):
pronounced dead Later that evening, Karen was released from the
hospital and then her dad drove her to John's house
where everybody had collected to kind of grieve and whatever,
and she wanted to go see the kids chuckle down,
and she and her dad went upstairs for about fifteen minutes.
So the question kind of became, was it possible that

(50:54):
maybe Karen deleted video that would show her tail light
was shattered, and then she might have gotten home at
a different time than originally stated, which would have given
her more room to have hit him with the car.
These questions came about because why would there be missing footage.
That's weird. Well, this would be answered soon enough because
Karen had left some unsavory voice messages or for John

(51:17):
after she left the in law Albert's home that night,
and included in those was an accidental voicemail that was
left on John's phone, and it would become important. Karen's
not talking or anything, but what you can hear in
the background is really telling about what's going on. It's
clear that Karen was home at the time she claimed

(51:38):
to be home at John's house because the voicemail that
was left accidentally. You can hear the sounds of her
car pulling into the garage. You can hear her door open.
You can hear that beeping of a car, you know
in open door. You can hear that. Then you can
hear her heels clanking on the ground in rapid fashion

(52:00):
as she's approaching the house and she's walking. This is
a very very obvious sound when you hear a voicemail
like the voicemail like this. It's something we all can
tell what's going on when you hear it. And if
that footage was deleted by Karen, which I personally don't believe,
her timeline was still solid because of that accidental voicemail
that she left and the fact that her cell phone

(52:22):
connected to John's WiFi at the exact same time. Okay,
So that is why I came to the conclusion that
I don't really buy that Karen would have deleted any
any footage. So I want to go through the events
of the voicemails too, and I'm going to play them
for you as I explain them for you. But they

(52:42):
are very tough to hear. They are very poor quality,
so you're going to have to listen, and I acknowledge
to you that they're not the best quality. So after
Karen left the in law Albert residence, she says she
dropped John off there in whatever condition at this point,
you believe that he was in, you believe that right now,
And she said she called him back to back to back.

(53:04):
I think y'all in total, it was like fifty three
calls or something like that, Like this was a lot
of calls, Okay. Karen called John, I'm gonna break them
all down for you. So Karen leaves John at the house.
She called John seven times and he did not answer
the phone at all, in rapid pace. She called seven
times before she left her first voicemail. Okay, And as

(53:31):
I mentioned, that voicemail was left at twelve thirty six am,
and she was connected to John's WiFi by this point
that I mentioned to you earlier. So there's no way
she was still at the in law Albert's house, is
what I'm trying to tell you. She had to be
at John's when that happened. Over the next two minutes
after that voicemail, she called John four more times, back

(53:53):
to back, and again he did not answer. And that's
when she left the second voicemail, which is the one
where you're gonna hear her walking and getting out of
the car. But I don't want you to just believe me.
I'm going to play it for you now. I want
you to make your own assessment and see if you
hear the same thing that I'm hearing and you think
it's the same thing. Okay. Now, after that voicemail, she

(54:50):
texts him, I'm going home. This is at twelve fifty five,
almost one am. She then calls him more times, a
couple more times, and then at twelve fifty nine she
leaves another voicemail and she is pissed with a capital
P when she leaves this one. Go ahead and listen
to that one, John, I'm here with you a fucking kid, Jill,

(55:13):
please Jose for the funky white, sucky herder. After that,
she seems to accidentally leave another voicemail, but it records
only these these background noises and there's no words to it.
It's not something I'm going to play here because you're
going to think there's something wrong with my audio because
it's literally just like silence and like some noises. And

(55:35):
either way, I just want you to know there was
another voicemail that was left. She then texted him at
one oh two am, and it said quote your kids
are fucking alone. End quote. Two minutes later, she texted
him quote I'm back in Mansfield. Your kids are home alone.
Now we obviously know that that's not true, y'all, because
she was pat you know, she was just pissed off,

(55:56):
and she was clearly trying to get him to call
her back, and she had connected to John's WiFi. She
was just trying to get him to call her back.
Then at one ten she leaves her fifth voicemail, go
ahead and give this one a listen one in the morning.
But this fucking needs to fu you fucking fer You're
fucking okay. From one ten am to one sixteen am,

(56:19):
she calls eight more times, and again they go unanswered,
and then she called at one seventeen, leaving voicemail number six.
You can go ahead and listen to that one.

Speaker 2 (56:30):
Now John's from going call. I cannot be to any
ends to go home.

Speaker 1 (56:35):
You You are fucking using me right now. You're fucking
as a girl. He's freaking next to me.

Speaker 2 (56:40):
You're fucking bolder blast itself.

Speaker 1 (56:45):
After that one, she does call one more time, which
he doesn't answer, and this is when Karen said about
that same time. She doesn't mention necessarily all these voicemails
and things, but she does tell investigators that she dozed
off or she must have fallen asleep, which seems to
be fired because she does not call his phone again
until four thirty eight AM, So some hours go by,

(57:07):
and when she starts calling, she calls four times between
four thirty eight and five twenty one am. Those go unanswered,
and then she leaves her seventh voicemail at five twenty
three am. And you can tell in this one there's
been a shift. She's very upset, almost in a scared way,
not an angry way. So listen to this one. After

(57:32):
that voicemail, she calls him eleven more times. And I
know right now you're like, damn, Kelly, how many freaking
phone calls? Hey, I didn't do it. I'm just here
to tell you what happened. She blowed him the fuck
up on this phone, all right, But she called in
between five twenty four and five thirty six am before
she left her eighth voicemail. But this one, again was

(57:53):
an accidental voicemail. Well how do I know that? Because
this is the time around when they found John the
three win and that voicemail, which is really long, okay,
it actually recorded that situation as it unfolded, and again,
very very hard to hear. But there's points where you

(58:13):
hear Karen screaming just I mean screaming, and then there's
times where there's breaks and you hear like the this
noise doom dun doom, dum, doom doom and I was like,
listen to it over and over, couldn't figure it out.
And then finally I realized that's the damn Winschell wipers
from the from the car going back and forth after
you know, they got out. I won't lie. It took
me a minute, but I think I figured that out

(58:35):
to be what it is. And then after you hear
the Winchell wipers, you hear parts of Jen McCabe whenever
she made that call to nine one one. Now I'm
gonna tell you I've shortened this call this voicemail because
I want you to hear something. It's just a lot
of silence, a lot of windshell wipers going back and forth.
It's so long that it would literally you would lose interest.

(58:57):
So I'm just gonna give you a certain snippet of
it where you can hear a lot that is happening
and you can kind of get a feel for how
Karen was behaving.

Speaker 2 (59:06):
So listen to this one.

Speaker 1 (01:00:03):
Sorry, I know I know that. Sorry, I mean, I'm

(01:00:25):
not so if. I'm just gonna be completely out there
with you and you'll know that's how I am. I
know I've been kind of snotty so far about not
believing in law Brian Albert and at F. Higgins whenever
there's these accidental butt dials back and forth. Okay, But
the difference between their claims of butt dialing and Karen

(01:00:47):
Reid's butt dials is that she admits that she was
on her phone, and she obviously had her phone open,
And it makes sense to me that you would accidentally
butt dial or dial again or hit call again, redial
when the phone is open and you have been chronically

(01:01:08):
trying to call somebody. Also, you know she was drunk,
and I think it's completely believable when you've called someone
in the range of fifty seven times that you might
dial them and not realize it while you're drunk and
you leave a voicemail. But the point is there's voicemails.
There's voicemails as to what was going on. The in
law Alberts and ATF. Higgins want us to believe that
they accidentally but dialed each other although they weren't actually

(01:01:31):
on their phones at that time. There's a big difference there.
And I just don't believe the men. I don't believe
what they're saying happened. So listening to Karen's voicemails. You
would be hard pressed to believe that she was not
mad at John and they weren't fighting when she dropped
him off at the house. Clearly that she was mad.
She was big mad. Okay, she was mad from the
second that she left, and not believe that firmly. I

(01:01:54):
believe that because of the voicemails and the fact she
admitted that they were fighting in the car before she
drove off. And I mentioned last episode about some Google
searches that magically changed timestamps. So I want to take
a minute to address this. But this is going to
require us looking further into miss Jennifer McCabe herself, the
name I've said a million times. When Jennifer McCabe was interviewed,

(01:02:18):
much of what she said originally aligned with the other
in law Alberts. Remember in law Albert Nicole. That's her sister,
the homeowner of the house where John was found. So
starting the day that John died, when Jen's phone was
taken and reviewed by police, it would be realized that
there was a very interesting Google search made on that phone.

(01:02:40):
She never mentioned it either. It was spelled wrong, So
I'm going to say it correct after I tell you
what it said here, It said has long to die
in the cold, meaning how long to die in the cold,
And considering all the suspicious activity to this point, it
sure does seem to be odd, right. I'd also like
to point out it wasn't readily in her search history either,

(01:03:04):
because it was actually a deleted search. So why would
you delete this search? That's obviously going to be a
question everyone's going to ask themselves. And I'm not getting
into the science of it here. That's what the court
case was for. It's technical and all of that. So
what I'm gonna do is tell you that this whole
situation became an argument in and of itself, she claimed.

(01:03:27):
Jim McCabe claimed she never deleted that search, but the
data showed it was deleted. Experts weighed in on this,
and both experts disagreed on the meaning of it. One
said she deleted. Well, they actually they disagreed on the
meaning of the word deleted. Okay. One said she deleted
it like she manually went in and she deleted it.

(01:03:48):
The other experts said, no, she didn't deleted, just means
she closed out a tab that was open well the
time that she made the search, which then also becomes
an argument. The phone showed that she made this search
at two am. Conveniently, just to point out, that's about

(01:04:09):
the time right before Brian Higgins atf Brian Higgins and
in law Brian Albert were making that butt doll call
back and forth to each other. It's like right before that. Okay,
Jen said, no, no, no, I did search that, but
I only searched that after we found John's body because
Karen asked me to search it. The phone shows that

(01:04:33):
she was using it and searching a sports website at
two twenty seven am. So one expert said, what happened
was that sports website was open, and then when she
went to go search how long to die in the cold,
she just reused that sports page that was up search

(01:04:53):
And that's why it looks like she did it at
two twenty seven am, but really it was done at
six point twenty two am the phone. So the reason
they came up with that too was that at six
twenty two in the morning, the data on the phone
showed a suggested search came up from like predictive text
whenever you're trying to search something, and it said the

(01:05:15):
predictive text came up how long to digest food? But
the user who searched it ignored that suggestion. So if
she ignored that suggestion, that would mean she was actively
on like looking at the phone, using it at that
moment and then typing in the how long to die
in the cold. So you have to decide do you
think that she did it at two am or do

(01:05:37):
you think that she did it at six twenty two am.
I'm gonna let you decide. The predictive text explanation for
experts did seem legit to me, and the fact that
it had to be manually ignored wasn't something that I
think in the moment she would be forward thinking about
if searching this for devious reasons, like if John had
gotten hurt in at their hands and then they searched it.

(01:05:58):
So while this is understand what isn't understandable is the
fact that she had also deleted some phone calls that
were deleted. So at twelve fourteen, she spoke to John voice,
spoke to John on the phone, twelve eighteen, she spoke
to him again. At twelve twenty nine, she called John
and he didn't answer, but she deleted that call. At

(01:06:22):
twelve forty one, she called John, he didn't answer. She
deleted that call. At twelve forty three, she called John,
it was unanswered. She deleted that call. So the argument
became they, as in the defense, started going, wait a minute,
this is about the time that John was believed to
have been killed in whatever killed him. So she called

(01:06:46):
him again at twelve forty seven, John didn't answer. She
deleted that, And at twelve fifty she called John, he
did not answer. She deleted that. So the defense started going,
wait a minute, she's kind of calling him through this timeframe,
John's already medically, you know, based on the evidence, believed
to be dead. Well, if you misplace a phone, or

(01:07:09):
you're trying to find somebody's phone, what do you do
when you're trying to find that phone, You ask somebody
to call it and they kind of chronic call it
until they're able to locate it. Well, when Jen was asked, okay, well,
why did you delete these calls or what are these
calls about, she says, Oh, those were butt dials. So
you butt dialed John six times in nineteen minutes. That

(01:07:32):
seems weird. And then if you butt dialed him, why'd
you delete them? Who goes in and deletes calls, especially
butt dials. The only reason that it was discovered all
of these calls had happened to wasn't because of Jen
McCabe's phone. You know where it was actually discovered in
John's phone. John's phone showed in a forensic audit that

(01:07:55):
all of those calls have been made. Then when they
went and looked at Jen's phone, that's when they realized
she's been deleting calls. So the only reason I can
think to delete a call would be to hide it.
I don't know any other reason of why you would
need to delete a call. Okay, So when would all
of these deletions have taken place? Well, I'm glad you asked.

(01:08:16):
It would have had to have occurred between January twenty ninth,
when John was found dead and February second, because that's
when her phone was taken and looked at. Again. I
just want to say this, I don't delete phone calls
unless there would be a reason to delete a phone call,
which only reason I would think you would do it
would be so no one saw it. No one else

(01:08:36):
is looking at no one's looking in your phone. Why
would you delete a call? Why do you care? You
know what happened and the voicemails. Okay, I delete voicemails.
I'll give you that I do because it gets full.
But I don't delete voicemails until it's full, so that's
the only thing I delete. Now, you might be having
a reason you delete calls. I don't know. But we
all are going to view things and evidence through our

(01:08:56):
own personal lens and our own personal experiences, and that's
all I have personally to weigh against this. I've been
talking to you for over an hour, and we've got
everybody in their Mama lion. We don't know who's telling
the truth. We've got deleted messages, we've got voicemails, we've
got everything going on, and I still have another hour
plus of stuff to give you that I cannot skip on.

(01:09:19):
So guaranteed, without question, next episode will be the final
episode where I wrap it up in this Karen Reid series.
I guess we'll just have to hang on the fact
that nobody really seems to remember what they said until
they're faced with someone pressing play on the voicemails, and
it's going to be really hard for these people to
try to clear things up. When everyone's neck deep in

(01:09:40):
their own bullshit,