Voddie Baucham - Why Im Going to Africa

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
I was contemplating what I was going to share with
you on this evening and thought about a couple of things.
But when Jason decided to mention that we were leaving
the country, I knew what I was going to have
to talk about. I thought in that moment, I said, well,
if I don't talk about that tonight, I'm gonna have
to talk about it one hundred times before I leave.

(00:27):
And so, sure enough, we go over to the buffet
back there and two people ask me, so, what's the
deal you are going to Africa? And then we get
back to the table, somebody else asked me, so tell
me about Africa. Then Jason comes and sits back down
at the table and says, so tell me about Africa.
So I'm going to tell you about Africa, so that

(00:49):
we'll all know. There's a passage of scripture that comes
to mind, a versus Scripture two. Two versus of scripture
found in two Timothy First, beginning at verse thirteen of
chapter one. Follow the pattern of sound words that you
have heard from me in the faith and love that

(01:10):
are in Christ, Jesus, by the Holy Spirit who dwells
within us, guard the good deposit entrusted to you this
idea of a pattern of sound words. Chapter two, beginning
in verse one, you, then, my child, be strengthened by
the grace that is in Christ Jesus, and what you

(01:30):
have heard from me, in the presence of many witnesses
in trust the faithful men who will be able to
teach others also. And then if you move ahead to
the next book and look at Titus Titus chapter one,

(01:52):
I went too far. Titus chapter one and verse nine.
There we find that the elder must hold firm to
the trustworthy word as taught. There's that pattern again, so
that he may be able to give instruction in sound
doctrine and also rebuke those who contradict it. And in

(02:17):
verse ten is always amazing to me. We'll probably talk.
We'll talk more about this tomorrow. Why is this important? Four?
There are many who are insubordinate, empty talkers and deceivers,
especially those of the circumcision party. They must be silenced
since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for shameful

(02:39):
gain what they ought not to teach. It's amazing, well.
One of the main reasons that the elder has to
be able to hold firmly to the trustworthy word, give
instruction in it, and rebuke those who contradict it. Is
because there are individuals who are upsetting whole families, and

(03:00):
he needs to gird on his gert his loins and
be about the business of protecting these households as they
are communicating these truths to the next generation. This is
my life, this is my calling. This is what I've
been doing for the last twenty five years. This is

(03:21):
what I have been preparing to do, training to do.
This is what I've been teaching others to do, this
very thing, understanding this pattern of sound words, and in
trusting this pattern of sound words to others with a
view toward training men who can train men defending this

(03:42):
pattern of sound words through apologetics. This is my life.
It's been my life, and it is going to continue
to be my life. And I'm just going to have
an opportunity to do this. In another setting. Seven years ago,
a friend of mine by the name of Paul Washer.
Y'all know the name Paul Washer. Paul Washer, dear friend

(04:04):
of mine. He told me, he said, I have a
friend of mine that you need to know. He said,
his name is Conrad in Beway, And they called Conrad
the spurgeon of Africa, and you need to meet Conrad.
Y'all need to know each other. And he told Conrad, Conrad,
there's a guy in America you need to know. His
name is Vodi Bacham. You just need to know this guy.
Y'all need to know each other. I don't know how.

(04:26):
I don't know how we set this up. You guys
need to know each other. And he said heart cry.
He said, heart Cry will bring vote in if y'all
have him for your annual reform conference. And so Conrad
calls me and he says, listen, Paul Washer says, we
need to know each other. So they invited me to
come and speak at their annual conference that they have

(04:46):
and I went to Zambia for the first time to
speak at that conference. And when I got back, I
told my wife, Bridget, I said, Bridget, She said, how
was it? I said, I want to be buried there?

(05:07):
That good huh? And I just told her, I said,
I don't know how. I don't know how, but I
know that I'm going to make significant investment in that
place and then the work that God is doing there.
And so I've gone back numerous times over the last
seven years, Bridget has gone with me twice. A number

(05:30):
of our children have been with us. We went this
past summer with our seven youngest children, and it was
at that time that my wife said to me, after
we were there for several days, we can do this, said,
we can do what she said. We can move here.

(05:52):
We need to move here, and so we're moving. In
the midst of all of this the Zambians who have
done an incredible work over the last twenty five years.
The Reform Baptist movement in Zambia has been a vibrant
indigenous movement for the last two and a half decades.

(06:13):
For the last twenty five years. In that time, they
have planted between twenty and thirty churches in Zambia alone.
In every major city in Zambia and on all the
major routes between major cities in Zambia, and in most
of the major villages in Zambia. The Reform Baptists have
planted churches sound Reformed Confessional sixteen eighty nine churches. They've

(06:41):
raised up men and trained men and mentored men and
discipled men to do this work, and it's amazing work.
The first time I went and spoke at their annual conference,
there were six hundred people there. This past year there
were thirteen hundred, and they're coming from all over the region.
Zambia is in what's called it's at the bottom of

(07:01):
what's called Equatorial Africa. It is if you think about Africa,
South Africa is down at the bottom. Right above South Africa,
you have Zimbabwe. Right above that you have Zambia and
then right above that the Democratic Republic of Congo. Okay,
think about Angola. Angola is to the west, Mozambiques to

(07:23):
the east, you know, So it's in that region. It's
kind of in the heart of Equatorial Africa, and it's
completely landlocked. But God's been doing a tremendous work there.
Zimbabwe is a mess. D r C is a mess,
Angola is a mess. Mozambique is a mess. Zambia is stable,

(07:44):
as stable as anything in Africa besides South Africa. God's
favor is on that country and God's favor is on
these men. Spiritually, the country is a wreck. The Word
of Faith movement and the worst example of Pentecostalism are
ravaging most of Africa, and Zambia is no exception in

(08:06):
that regard. So there are significant obstacles there, and yet
in the midst of these significant obstacles, God is doing
this tremendous work. The age pandemic has wiped out much
of the African continent, and Zambia has been no exception.
The average age, the median age in Zambia is around

(08:30):
sixteen and it's just the age pandemic is horrific. And
yet God is over the last twenty five years, done
this tremendous work among the Reform Baptists there, and people
from other parts and regions of the African continent have

(08:51):
been coming to the Zambians basically saying can you come
do here? You know what you've done there? And so
for Mepia, from Nigeria, from Tanzania, from you know, from
all over. People are saying, can you help us? Can
you help us? Can you help us? And in the
midst of all of this there is a need to

(09:13):
train men. And so there's been this dream of starting
the African Christian University and the seminary at the African
Christian University, and this dream has been materializing over the
last several years and ACU is going to launch in
the fall and the seminary shortly thereafter. And so I'm

(09:34):
going to go be the first dean of the seminary
at African Christian University. And this is a strategic move
for a number of reasons. First, for evangelistic reasons. This
is strategic. Europe tried to evangelize Africa, but it tried

(09:55):
to evangelize Africa by colonizing Africa. That was harmful in
a number of It was helpful and that the Gospel
reached into that part of the world, and and praise
God for that, but it wasn't helpful in that it
didn't strengthen the hand of the Africans. And colonialism made

(10:17):
Africa dependent and and and you know, Zambia was a
British colony until fifty years ago. So five it was
the twenty fifth anniversary of the Reform Baptist Conference and
the fiftieth year of Zambian independence this year or last year,
this past this past summer, and there's still recovery going

(10:39):
on from that. And now Europe, the Church in Europe
is on life support. The Muslims are coming down from
the north, and they're coming down in force, and they're
coming down with violence, and they're spreading like locusts over
in northern Africa and over Eastern Africa, now Western Africa

(11:00):
Boka a ram and so you already had, you know,
in the East and Somalia and now in the western Nigeria,
all across the north of course, and so there's the
force of Islam. Europe is Europe can be no help.
If Africa is going to be evangelized, it's going to
have to happen from the south, and I believe it's

(11:23):
going to happen from Zambia. I believe the continent will
be evangelized and that Zambia will be the tipping point
because of what God has been building for the last
twenty five years. And it's strategic in that regard. It's
healthy planting solid churches, building solid sound man and so

(11:44):
from that standpoint, it's incredibly important. Also from the standpoint
of reclaiming the idea of the Christian university, African Christian
university is diversity that blends the best of what our
Harvard and Yale's started out to be with you know,

(12:07):
sound commitment to biblical worldview, biblical theology, doctrine, training individuals
in Christian worldview in every discipline and with a commitment
to training them in their lives as believers as well
and not compromising that with two added benefits. Number one,

(12:30):
African Christian University is under the authority of local Reform
Baptist churches, and it will stay under the authority of
local Reform Baptist churches so that it will not move,
so that it will not go liberal. It is confessional.
It is not just generally Christian. Is It is a

(12:52):
confessional Reformed Baptist school, and those who teach there are
Confessional Reform Baptists who are members of Confession or Reform
Baptist churches under the authority of their churches. So this
is a school that is submitted to local churches, and
the seminary serves local churches and is submitted to local
churches in order to serve as a bullwork in that regard.

(13:15):
The other thing that it has that those institutions didn't
have is it has a works program, and so on
the university level, part of your tuition, part of your
fees are paid through work. So students work in agriculture,
in carpentry, and in things like this, both to build

(13:41):
and sustain things that need to be built and sustained.
And secondly, so that when they leave they have a
skill that will allot of them feed themselves should God
call them into the ministry is somewhere where they're not
going to be able to be paid for that. And
so it's teaching a biblical work ethic, it's teaching skills,

(14:02):
it's teaching important trades for that region of the world.
So another thing which really sets the place apart. I'm
going and being sent by my local church. I'm not
being sent by an agency. I'm not going as a renegade.
I'm being sent by my local church. From my local

(14:24):
church to a local church. I will be supported by
my local church. All the support that comes to me
and my family from anywhere else goes to our local church,
who then supports us. And then our local church is
partnering with and supporting the university the seminary, which again

(14:49):
we believe that that is of strategic importance because much
of most of what we do, the overwhelming majority of
what we do in the name of global ministry, in
the name of so called missions, is grossly unbiblical to
start with, and secondly not missions, and so we want

(15:10):
to be able to set an example in this regard
as well. And so that's what we're doing. We are
raising funds through our church to get us there. And
then you know, I got this, I got a goal.

(15:33):
I was talking to Philip about this goal. You know,
one of the things that I want to do through GFBC,
one of the things that we want to do as
a church. We want to raise money to support this institution.
But we want to do it long term. I don't
want the person who succeeds me as the dean to
have to worry about whether or not he can raise
support to go be the dean. I want to endow

(15:56):
that position, and it will cost three million dollars to
do it. I believe God'll give it to us. I
not only want to endow that position, I want to
build a dean's house, so for the dean and guests
of the seminary. And so that's my goal. I want
to raise funds to endow this position and to build

(16:17):
a dean's house. Why. Well, here's why. If this school
is going to be what it can and must be,
have to be able to recruit people who aren't just
the folks who have the you know, great desire and zeal,

(16:38):
but don't have the skill set to go and do that.
We want to be able to recruit top not scholars
to come to Zambia and invest. And if we have
a dean's house, and if we have the position endowed,
then that position will be paid for and the person
won't have to come for like ever anymore. Never anymore

(17:01):
will the dean have to come and raise support. They
have a place to live and they'll have a salary
because his position has been endowed. And that's what I
and my church want to be able to give to
the Zambians, so that when we leave, the institution is
not only established and training men for the gospel ministry,

(17:25):
but that the school is in a position to where
they can talk to well qualified men and say we
want you to come here, and we got a salary,
and we got a place for you to live, and
we want you to come and do your work. A
couple other things that I think are very important. One
is that the school have a strong linguistics program. And
so I'm trying I'm recruiting people in those areas. Why

(17:47):
because Europeans and Americans from organizations like Wickliffe Prince God
for Wickliffe, But why are Europeans and Americans going into
Sub Saharan Africa to try to learn those dialects and
the Bible for those people. There ought to be a
seminary in Zambia. That is an example of how you
do that indigenously with people who speak those languages, who

(18:11):
are being trained in Biblical languages and in translation, so
that you can actually speed up the work because a
large number of the unriched people groups you don't have
the Bible in their language, are in that part of
the world. So that's that's what we that's what we
want to do, and we think that that's hugely important.
The other thing is that publishing needs to happen in

(18:32):
that part of the world. You know, you talk about
and we hear about the center of gravity of Christianity
moving south South America and Africa, and we hear about
things happening in Asia, and everybody's excited about you know
what's happening. You know God, you know the God, the

(18:53):
work that God is really doing is in Asia and Africa,
South America sort of. But if you get on the
ground in Asia, Africa and South America, what you realize
is that there are a lot of people who have
gone to Asia, Africa and South America with a horrible gospel,
and that there are many false converts, and that the

(19:15):
reports that we get here are grossly, grossly exaggerated. The
other problem that you run into is syncretism. When the
center of gravity and Christianity moved. Historically, you look at
the beginning and you see basically Athens and Alexandria, Okays

(19:36):
in Greece, Alexandria, in Egypt and North Africa. That was
the center of gravity. These gave us the great thinkers,
writers and scholars of early Christianity. The center of gravity moved,
and really in the Reformation there is an establishment in Europe.
But what do you then have in Europe? You have
Oxford and Cambridge and places like that. You have Calvin's Geneva.

(20:02):
And ultimately, when the center of gravity moved, what moved
was scholarship. What moved with scholarship, and that's why Europe
became what it was because the scholarship that they had established.
You look here in America and right now the center
of gravity of Christianity is in America. I know we
complain about what's going on in the church in America,
but here's what you need to know. In Asia, Africa

(20:24):
and in South America, when people come to faith in
Christ and they're excited and they're called and want to
go to ministry, they do not go get theology books
in their language. They get them in English and they
get them from America because this is the theological center
of gravity of Christianity in the world today. This is

(20:44):
where scholarship resides. Well, my passion is to see scholarship
in Zambia. Usually when we go train ministers in Africa
and South America and Asia, what we do is we
go bring a Sunday school level education know and teach
these guys, you know, rudimentary things equivalent to the abcs

(21:06):
and the one two threes, and then say, you know,
go out, you know, I have a degree from Bible
School and go be a pastor. And then they're ravaged.
They're tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine. No, no, no, no, no,
we're talking real scholarship. We're talking real scholarship. Okay, I'm
going to Zambia to work alongside Zambian men who are scholars,

(21:31):
to raise up Zambian men who will be scholars so
that this reformation will have roots and it can impact
the entire region and ultimately the entire continent. So that's
why I'm going to Africa. That's what I'm going to do.
Our plan as a family is to give three to

(21:54):
five years to this. My wife doesn't believe we'll ever
be back. She believes I'll be buried there, you know,
And I can live with that. But you know that
that's what we're doing, and all of those things together
all mixed up in that. The other the other arm

(22:15):
of that, I was going to say it was publishing.
There needs to be publishing in Africa. So I want
to see a publishing house established through the university in
the seminary because there are things that need to be
published there. You know. For example, you know, we write
apologetics books here. When's the last time you wrote you
read an apologetics book that dealt with animism an ancestor

(22:40):
worship not a big deal for an apologist here in America.
If you're an apologist in Africa, you've got to deal
with that. That's number one. Animism and family, you know,
and and ancestral worship. You've got to deal with that.
You know. We have all these wonderful marriage books over here,
and when's the last time one of them addressed the
idea of the bride price and the fact that you

(23:00):
have such confusion because in those countries people feel like
they buy a bride and she becomes their property. We
don't that that's that's not gonna be written from over here,
has to be written from over there. And those are
just two examples. Okay, those are just two examples of
things that need to be published from there for there,

(23:22):
And so establishing strong post publishing presents is also important.
All this stuff's gonna take time, but God has put
an incredible foundation in place there. I'm not going to
save Zambia. I'm going to lend my hand to some
very capable, very godly proven men and I and I'm

(23:47):
honored to be a part of it. So questions, Yes,
the vision of.

Speaker 2 (23:57):
Going through the local church and every next is and
ties between the local church.

Speaker 3 (24:02):
Is that creating any conflict with Southern Methodist Convention in
your mind?

Speaker 1 (24:07):
Or I'm just doesn't create conflicts with the Southern maps Convention.

Speaker 4 (24:10):
Known is there a difference at all?

Speaker 2 (24:13):
Because convention goes through you know, everybody pays into the cooperative.

Speaker 3 (24:17):
Program, right, and then right they send out it's it's
not so much a local back uh, local Baptist church
focus right as what you seem to, which I would
agree with you, right, but uh, as far as your
church being a Southern Baptist Convention church, there's.

Speaker 4 (24:34):
No no problem or miss or.

Speaker 2 (24:38):
Economy between's keep it a local church uh focus as
opposed to paying money in the cooperative program.

Speaker 1 (24:46):
The Southern Baptist Convention is a convention of confessing free churches.
Nobody tells us how to do missions, so there's no problem.
There's no there's nobody who has any authority over how
we do missions. So there's that a little problem. And
I've been on the phone with Dave Platt, who's now
the head of the International Mission Board, and you know,

(25:07):
we've had conversations about about this. We've been friends for
a long time since before he went to the i MB,
and he couldn't be more excited about about what's happening
and how it's happening. And there are some things that
need to be reformed in the i m B. I mean,
they need to be more of a local church focus,
because right now among Southern Baptists missionaries you know, you basically,

(25:29):
you know, somebody feels like they've been called a mission somewhere.
They go to the mission board and get some you
know testing done there, and you know, go and raise
their support, and then they're on the field and there's
nobody at their church who's evaluated them. There's nobody at
their church who's you know, really connected to them. There's
really no accountability. A large number of the missionaries in

(25:52):
Zambia right now, and the overwhelming majority of the missionaries
in Zambia are working with orphans, which is also hugely
problematic when you understand the African concept of orphan care,
because it's familial. So for example, if an African woman

(26:14):
has sisters, when that woman has children, each of her
sisters is mother to that child. Even in the naming
of the children, there's a pecking order in the family
about which female relatives you name your children after, and
so all the females in their mother and so the

(26:38):
daughter will call those women mother, right because they understand that.
And so if anything happens to this woman, that shall
belongs to her sisters. And we're going over to starting
orphanages that are intervening in that process, which by the way,
is a very healthy process. That's familial process where people

(27:02):
take care of orphans within the context of their families
and so on and so forth. And that you only
have orphan care outside of that in extreme cases where
you legitimately have that's that's an important concept, and it's
being circumvented by a lot of these institutions who are
now throwing money around and got people who are going

(27:22):
and you know, so anyway, and the overwhelming majority of
these people who are doing this work don't go to
church anywhere. They're not under the authority of a local church.
In America. They have you know, some five oh one c.
Three that they started completely separate from their church. They
left completely separate from their church. They are there, completely

(27:46):
separate from any church there. They don't not only not
only are they not under the authority of a church,
they don't go to church, and they come back here
and visit all kinds of churches, raising money, you know,
for their work with with with African orphans. This is
a problem. This is a huge problem. And and the

(28:06):
fact that you know so anyway, yeah, this this that's
an important piece of this for.

Speaker 2 (28:11):
Us with you that there needs to be some reforming.

Speaker 1 (28:15):
Absolutely, yeah, that's why there, that's why. Yes.

Speaker 5 (28:23):
I earlier you mentioned the missions work that churches are doing.

Speaker 4 (28:28):
And you give it a negative slant.

Speaker 5 (28:32):
Do you want to expand how you think churches should
approach missions?

Speaker 1 (28:36):
Yeah? Yeah. The idea of the question is about churches
doing missions and how do we approach missions from a
biblical perspective? Romans ten, you know, how can they hear
without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach
unless they are sent? Who sends? The local church sends.
That's the responsibility of the local church. Those passages that

(28:58):
we just read about intrusting these faithful men who will
be able to teach others. Also, this is what we do.
And so this this idea of people sending themselves, this
idea of people not being vetted by the local church,

(29:18):
equipped by the local church, sent by the local church,
supported by the local church, and then overseen and supervised
by the local church, connected to a local church where
they go that's partnering with their local church that sends them. See,
these are the things that we need to be doing
that we're not.

Speaker 5 (29:36):
So I'm in a church and flagstaff that's prenominally white
how do you see that playing out?

Speaker 4 (29:45):
Just like you're saying, I'm not going to go to Zambia,
I don't.

Speaker 1 (29:47):
Know the language, the speak English.

Speaker 4 (29:52):
You see the dilemma though, how do you see that
playing out?

Speaker 1 (29:55):
Why is that a dilemma? I don't know. I don't
see any dilemma.

Speaker 5 (29:57):
Well, you said earlier that you send somebody over and
they don't speak the language, versus having indigenous people training
them up.

Speaker 1 (30:07):
Oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no no. I'm talking about translators,
people who are translating the Bible. So when I talk
about translation, that's a different issue altogether. So what happens
is translators are coming into this area with these languages
that they don't know, right. So first thing you have
to do is learn those languages so that you can

(30:28):
then translate for those languages, right. And what I'm saying
is the next phase in that is that people who
are in these areas where there are language groups that
don't have the Bible in their language, that these people
become translators. You see. So for example, Conrad were talking

(30:50):
about Conrad uh Conrad is the chancellor of the university UH.
On the university side, Well, English is the official language
of Zambia, but there are seventy tribal languages in Zambia.
So Conrad speaks English, you know, as well as, if
not better than many of us you know here in
the room. But English is his third language, right, So

(31:14):
if I'm translating into language groups in that area, I
want him. I want him in charge of that and
people from that region who've grown up with those language groups.
And you understand when I say the language groups like
language group like the Romance languages like you know, French

(31:35):
in Spanish and Portuguese, and you know, it's kind of
a language group, you know, And so people who understand
one of those be pretty easy for them to work
in another. Same thing happens in those kind of language groups.
So I want people with familiarity with those language groups.
Not that people are wrong who translated the other ways,
you have to start that way. So my point there

(31:55):
was not that people were wrong. My point was that
it would be a lot more effective and efficient if
things happen in the opposite direction. M. Yeah, so you're
you're you're conflating two ideas there. Does that make sense?
Like on the one here we're talking about this the
idea of missions and people being said, but that was
specifically about translation and the translating aspect of the of

(32:19):
the seminary, the translating work at the seminary. Yeah, yes,
My question.

Speaker 4 (32:25):
Is to do the work faith? Uh I know that,
just Peter.

Speaker 1 (32:29):
I don't know what familiar, but yeah, I know justin
uh huh.

Speaker 2 (32:32):
Yeah, you've done a great work in the uh apologetic
against the word of faith heresy.

Speaker 4 (32:38):
That's probably our biggest export from here to there is
that word of faith.

Speaker 3 (32:42):
Yes, what strategy or what overall plan do you have
from an apologetic standpoint or fight that all their anxietia.

Speaker 1 (32:52):
Yeah. The strategy to fight off uh word of faith
in Zambia same as the strategy to fight off anything else.
It's tied us one. Train men right who hold faster
the trustworthy word so that they can exhort in sound
doctrine and refute those who contradict it. That's the strategy.

(33:13):
That's the strategy. Yeah, yes, boy, welcome.

Speaker 6 (33:19):
How do you plan to incorporate the Hebrew relational discipleship
model of family scripture. When we think of a university,
we think of a Greek model and so and you've
talked about you. You inferred in what you said that
how can you give us some examples of how you're going.

Speaker 1 (33:37):
To do that? The question is how we plan to
incorporate Hebrew relational models.

Speaker 6 (33:48):
Right doing life together?

Speaker 1 (33:50):
Of yeah, yeah, First let me first let me say
that I don't know if this is inherent in your question,
but that there's a sum that is we do either
the Hebrew model or the Greek model. And I wouldn't
accept that in economy at all. Uh, I think that's fallacious.

(34:10):
I don't think that the Hebrews have a corner on
you know, the market of how people are taught, and
and and actually the Greek model has has has brought
much and has done much good in terms of how
people are taught. And so our goal is not to

(34:33):
have a Hebrew model of education or a Greek model
of education, but a Zambian model of education. You know
that that's what we want. And so Zambian culture is
a very relational culture, so you can't get away from that.
But for us, the important thing is that local church.
See here's how here's what happens. Talk about missionaries, The

(34:53):
same thing happens with pastors. So you know, you go
to church, and a young man goes to church and
and then he you know, goes to the youth group
and then you know, he's a teenager getting ready to
go off to college. But he's really passionate about you know,
the ministry there in the youth group. And this is
most guy's path path to ministry. He's really passionate about
the ministry and youth, their youth group. So he thinks,

(35:15):
you know, I want to I want to do college ministry.
I want to do youth ministry, or I want to do
college ministry. So he goes to college and he's involved
in the ministry there, and maybe he you know, is
involved in the youth ministry at a church or something
like that, and maybe then he'll go and get some
training and he'll go to a seminary that now they offer,
you know, degrees in youth ministry, which are leading the way,
you know, as far as the kind of degrees that
people go and get. And so this kid goes and

(35:38):
he gets this youth ministry degree, and then he works
in youth ministry you know, for a while, and then
you know, maybe eventually he enters into another kind of
pastoral ministry because he gets too old for youth ministry,
you might notice anything missing there. Where's the church. Guys

(36:02):
are going to seminary and being trained by the seminary
and their church. There's absolutely nothing to do with it.
And then when they get their paper, they go to
some other church that doesn't know them, that hasn't watched
their life that you know, ask them some interview questions

(36:23):
and listen to a sermon brings mom as pastor, right.
And so the relational aspect that we're losing as far
as training people for ministry is the idea that it's
the local church's duty and responsibility to mentor disciple evaluate right.

(36:45):
So we're there as partners of and servants of local
churches who are training men for ministry. See, that's where
the relational model comes in. It's not our job as
an institution to become what the church is. Were there
to strengthen the hand and be a servant of the church,
you know, And that's way different than what we see,

(37:09):
you know, in in just about everywhere else in the
world today.

Speaker 2 (37:18):
Yes, sir, when do you think about the uh the
fairly recent events of what's going on in Uganda and
do you think that there's anything that's going on there,
there will help in the Zambia.

Speaker 1 (37:33):
What to where are you? What that's going on in
your goud. It's a lot of stuff going on in
your gun.

Speaker 2 (37:37):
I mean basically, the the the president of Uganda repented
personally and repented as a nation to follow the Lord Jesus.

Speaker 4 (37:47):
And uh, I.

Speaker 2 (37:48):
Think the latest thing that I saw was they were
going to pass a hall and you gone to the
They were when to.

Speaker 4 (37:54):
Give a death mity to homosexual behavior.

Speaker 2 (37:58):
Under some pressure, they backed off and said, okay, life
in prison. So there they they seem to be trying
to follow a spritcher the way it's intended to be followed.
And so it is that gonna be beneficial to the
work that's going on in Zark.

Speaker 1 (38:14):
In the ambient. Uh I, I think the Ugandans are
light years behind Zambia. Okay, light years behind Zambia. They
are running to the Zambians mm to be helped and
to be trained. And uh Zambia is uh a Christian nation,

(38:37):
it is a declared Christian nation. And so yeah, the
U the Ugandans are light years behind the Zambians and
need much help. Yeah, they they they need much help.
There's very little good theology happening in that part of
the world.

Speaker 4 (38:57):
Yeah, so when we go, how do you maintain that accountability?
You know, you're you're talking local church. Yeah, the local
church now is America and you're little little separation there.

Speaker 1 (39:12):
Yeah, they're sending me to a local church in Zambia.

Speaker 4 (39:14):
So you're gonna be part of a local church in.

Speaker 1 (39:18):
And infused in that ye uh huh.

Speaker 4 (39:20):
How is that relationship? What's that looking like for you?

Speaker 1 (39:27):
I'm not there yet, so.

Speaker 4 (39:31):
With an idea in mind, it's gonna be and then
we'd also know Leisure some problems over their face.

Speaker 1 (39:36):
Well, like I'm not sure I'm understanding the question.

Speaker 4 (39:39):
Well, how are you going to making the transition to
there and engaging? Are you gonna be an elder there?
Are you just gonna be a member and then you're
gonna have this focus there?

Speaker 1 (39:48):
Yeah. It depends on the church that we It depends
on the church that we join, Yeah, which is gonna
depend on where we live. My wife and I are
going in May to secure housing and so at that
time that'll probably give us v a better idea of
which church we would join. And what my role is
is gonna be determined by the church that we join.
I'm a man under under authority. I don't get to

(40:10):
say what my relationship is gonna be like. I'm gonna
be told what my relationship is gonna be. Like, I'm
gonna I'm gonna be told what's expected of me. I'm
gonna be told what's desired from me, what's needed from me.
And you know, to the best of my ability, that's
what I'll do. So hold on that.

Speaker 4 (40:29):
Is you have that, then you have I'm gonna be
in charge of the seminary.

Speaker 1 (40:34):
Uh huh. And how is that.

Speaker 4 (40:36):
Relationship with the local church, you know, because we see
that you know, a lo a lot of the churches
starting to have seminary, building the seminary within the church
itself to train them.

Speaker 1 (40:48):
That's a great Yeah, things happened.

Speaker 4 (40:51):
How's that gonna work with Now you be under one
of them. But you got all these other bodies of
churches that are gonna hold you know, in the seminary county.

Speaker 1 (41:02):
Yeah, that's called associationism. See, there's an association of reform
Baptist churches in Zambia, a very healthy association of reform
Baptist churches in Zambia, who've been working together for twenty
five years. They have a very healthy and effective working
relationship as an association of Reform Baptist churches. And so

(41:25):
it's that healthy working relationship that will leading guide to
seminary as opposed to any one church in particular. So, yeah,
they've been doing this for a long time. I mean,
they've planted, like I said, somewhere in the neighborhood of
thirty healthy confessional associated Reform Baptist churches in the last

(41:49):
twenty five years. They do the association thing really well. Yeah. Yeah,
I've learned much by working with Zambia. Uh. Our church
in Houston has has been has been enriched greatly over
the last seven years since since I've been going to Zambia.

(42:11):
I I've I've learned a tremendous amount about Reform Baptist
life from Zambian brothers. Yeah, yeah, did you.

Speaker 4 (42:23):
Some of what you've learned the city for.

Speaker 1 (42:25):
Us to know their understanding of association. Muh, they're they're
I'm gonna get to technical here with the confession, but
one of the beauties in the sixteen eighty nine is
the way that it balances the autonomy of local churches,

(42:46):
which is a hallmark of Baptist theology with the need
for association with fellow churches and how that association works
to benefit the individual church and the whole and the

(43:07):
way that they've forged relationships in and through their association
and the way they work through things in and through
their association is something that we've learned a great deal from.
And so we've planted a number of churches. Our church
in Houston is nine years old. I've been going to
Zambia for seven years, you know, seven of the nine

(43:28):
years that we've been in existence, I've been going to Zambia.
And as we've planted churches, things that the Zambians have
done in planting those churches and how they associate with
the churches that they've planted have been very helpful, very
helpful for us. How they accomplished tasks together. For example,

(43:59):
you know, we're going through a process right now with
some constitution by laws, you know sort of stuff. We're
you know, redoing updating constitution by laws. Well, our churches
that we've planted are now partnering with us, and we're
doing that in association with one another. Not that we
will then come out with the same thing for everybody,

(44:21):
but all of us will be enriched through that, you know,
process that we're going through. You know, those those sorts
of things that have been have been really helpful for us. Confessionalism,
how they handle confessionalism, that's been really helpful for us.
One of the churches that has been planted from our

(44:43):
church is not part of our association, not formally so,
because they don't subscribe fully to our confession, and there's
some significant areas where they differ. We love those men
and and we trained those men, and we you know,
helped those men, but we cannot partner with them. And

(45:08):
that's that's one of the areas where the influence of
what's happening in his Zambio was really helpful for us.
The things that they've done as far as their conference
and the way that they've handled that, some of the
logistics there that's been extremely helpful for us as well.
Some of the things that they've done in mentoring ministers

(45:34):
that's been really helpful for us as well. Just a
number of things, you know, little things like you know,
the first time I went in and to Conrad's office
and see all these little booklets that they had done
these little pamphlets that they had had bound and printed
on different issues of you know a lot of them,
different issues of family life or you know, things like

(45:56):
that that he'd put into these you know, little helpful things.
And I'm like, man, okay, cause we're answering a lot
of questions over and over and over again. Nope, to self,
we need to do some of these, you know. So
and we've bound our membership project up process and bunch
of other things like that. So just a lot of
little things like that have been it's just really helpful

(46:17):
for us, and then things that have been helpful for
them in turn. You know, it's just been good. It's
been a good mutually beneficial relationship. Conrads come up and
preach for us. You know, we'll probably have some of
the other men from there come up and preach for us,
cause their stable is deep man. So yes, and someone

(46:42):
rand new to you?

Speaker 5 (46:44):
Is this project?

Speaker 4 (46:45):
The best way to keep up to date?

Speaker 1 (46:49):
To go to votebachom dot org. Okay, yup, it's my name,
spell correctly dot O r G or just do a
web search for me and it'll it'll come up and
you'll you'll you'll find it there on the right on

(47:10):
the church website. My website, that's there together. So any other.

Speaker 4 (47:21):
Yes, wants the climate line.

Speaker 1 (47:25):
The political climate in Zambia. You know, I'm not as
well equipped to answer that right now because last I
think in October, the president died and so there's a
new president in Zambia now, and interestingly enough, he's white
and it's the first white president since the colonial area

(47:47):
anywhere in Sub Saharan Africa. So that's like a you know,
westside from South Africa with apartheid. He's Scottish born and
raised in Zambia, but his parents are Scottish missionary but
he was in the government and so so in that sense,
it was a healthy transition, you know, to him. And

(48:10):
I'm not sure I had to brush up a little
bit on Mozambian politics. If he was appointed or there
was an automatic succession. I think I think it was
it automatic. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so I think there was
like an automatic succession. So there's stability and yeah, so

(48:31):
things are good in that regard. You know, it's still
a third world country, so things are not like you know,
what what what we know and experience. But if you've
if you've been, you know, to the Third world before.
Zambia is as as good as you're gonna get in
terms of third world countries. So all of up them.

Speaker 4 (48:52):
Then what are some of the biggest challenges that you
see going in and what are some of the.

Speaker 1 (48:59):
Greatest blessed Yeah, some of the biggest challenges going in
right now. It's faculty that that's one of the biggest
challenges is faculty and facilities. There's some land that we
have m long term, it's not gonna be enough. Couple

(49:21):
of other places that we have. There's one place that
was basically you know, given, but the school's probably not
gonna take it because it's too far away from the
churches and they don't want to do that. We want
the people at the school to be part of the churches.

(49:45):
So that's that's a ch that's a challenge. You know, facilities. Uh,
somebody has donated uh money for us to buy a
library and so when we start, we're gonna have one
of the most significant theological libraries in all of Africa.
That's great, right, sh awesome, awesome, man, It's like Amen, Hallelujah,

(50:07):
praised the Lord. But before you shout too loud, where
you gonna put them books for so we've got to
build something to house these books. And you can't just
build anything to house books. You know, there's a certain
way that things have to be built to house books.
And so now there's there's there's that, you know, so

(50:30):
th so those sorts of things, you know that that
that's difficult. And right now everybody who comes there has
to be support raised, and you know there's you know,
there's there's difficulty with that, which is why no, man,
I just got this idea. Just want to endow the

(50:51):
position one more.

Speaker 7 (50:56):
Talk about the culture of Zanbia. I've had your privilege
of traveling outside of the United States, Yeah, but never
to Africa.

Speaker 4 (51:08):
So talk about the cultram.

Speaker 7 (51:09):
What do you see is some of the challenges that
you see?

Speaker 1 (51:12):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (51:12):
What do you see is some of the great blessings?

Speaker 1 (51:14):
Yeah, how do I see? Y? Yeah. One of the
major challenges in Zambia is is, like all Thirboro countries,
the huge disparity between rich and poor. You you'll go
places and you'll have you know, nice n nice nice
homes and neighborhoods and and then you you know, go

(51:36):
a few yards and there's a slum with you know,
cinder block houses and dirt floors and new electricity, and
then you go, you know, driv an hour and you're
in the bush w where where Comrades said when he
when he takes us to the bushes, I'm gona take
you to real Africa where there are mud huts and
thatched roofs, and you know, and so trying to do

(51:59):
what we're trying to do in that kind of environment
is going to be difficult. The linguistic issues, you know,
can be difficult. But Zambia, there's also the issue. One
of the things that the school wants to emphasize its entrepreneurship. Colonialism.

(52:23):
It cripples people. It crippled people. There was this European
culture that was imposed, it's superimposed on African culture, and
Africans were sort of outsiders in the colonial period. You know,
educated in colonial schools, they learned the language, but the
culture was foreign to them. There were advancements that came

(52:45):
and so now fifty years later, entrepreneurship is not something
that's sort of in the blood, you know, in the
bloodstream of the zambient or of most Africans. You know,
there's a kind of sit back and see if you know,
if if if somebody else is going to do it
kind of mentality, that's a challenge. And when you're trying

(53:07):
to do initiatives like this, you know that that can
that can be difficult, that could be a real that
can be a real challenge. The number of American and
Western missionaries who are there doing a variety of things. Uh,
some of them helpful, many of them not at all.

(53:32):
That's a challenge. You know. The these these are difficulties,
but the culture, it's a it's a peaceful place, it's
a beautiful place. It's you know, David Livingstone's legacy is
there in Zambia, you know, and Victoria Falls, you know,

(53:54):
the largest falls in the world. It borders Zimbabwe and Zambia.
And on the Zambia side the town is living Stone,
you know, and there's this big copper statue of David Livingston.
They're number one resources copper and that's their number one
industry is copper mining done by the Chinese. But anyway,

(54:17):
that's another huge problem in Zambia, not not that Chinese
people are a problem, but the fact that copper mining
in Zambia, or diamond mining in South Africa, or you know,
you all these natural resources people all over the world
are becoming filthy, stank, nasty rich off of those resources.
All people except one, and that's Africans. They're the only

(54:41):
ones who are not being enriched by the overabundance of
natural resources that they have on the continent. And that
that's another that's another issue, you know. So anyway, you know,
Livingston is a big copper statue of Livingston right there,
so that that legacy is m is there, tremendous. So

(55:05):
it's wonderful people man very I mean, just gracious. Yeah,
I I never felt unsafe there, you know.

Speaker 2 (55:18):
But.

Speaker 6 (55:20):
Was the You anticipate the demographic of your faculty and students.

Speaker 1 (55:27):
The demographic of the faculty and students. No way to
tell right now when we haven't had a class yet,
the university hadn't had a class yet. R y, they'll
start ideas on that. No idea, man, no idea. Uh,
all of that just depends on ya. You know. As
the word gets out, I expect people from all over
that region to come to the school. I eventually expect

(55:48):
people from all over the world to come to the school.
How soon will that happen? I don't know. Uh, I
don't know. I would expect it initially it'd be mostly Zambians,
that the demographic would be mostly mostly Zambians, but I
don't think that'll last long.

Speaker 4 (56:06):
Faculty and student.

Speaker 1 (56:08):
Yeah, and no faculty and students, yeah, be mostly Exambiens. Yeah.

Speaker 6 (56:13):
Maybe a model that you're gonna gets there a store
that other people would wanna come.

Speaker 4 (56:16):
There and learn how to do that.

Speaker 1 (56:18):
Yeah, we hope, so yeah, we hope, we hope that
it's a model that other people would wanna, you know,
follow by the way, you can go to ACU dash
usa dot com. ACU dash usa dot com to find
out about school as well. You know, there's videos there

(56:39):
and you know, all kinds of information there to find
out about what's happening.

Speaker 4 (56:43):
So yes, about this about the Family Integrated Church.

Speaker 1 (56:47):
In Zambia, The Family Integrated Church in Zambia, What do
you mean?

Speaker 4 (56:54):
What do you mean is that the church modeling these
reformed church?

Speaker 1 (56:58):
Is that the church model in these ru No? No,
that's not the church model in these for form batist churches. No.

Speaker 4 (57:03):
Uh, what influence do you hope to have?

Speaker 1 (57:09):
I'm not even thinking about my influence in that regard.
I'm I'm not going to have influence in churches. I'm
going to be a man under authority, you know, I'll
help however I can, you know, yeah, so and family
integration quite frankly, would be one of the last things

(57:29):
on my list. These guys got so much right, that's
so much more important than that, you know.

Speaker 4 (57:37):
So, yeah, and you maybe come to mind, then we
would notice what would we notice? And what did you
notice going over there?

Speaker 1 (57:45):
How Blaze died.

Speaker 4 (57:46):
Together, how they do church?

Speaker 1 (57:50):
What did I know? A couple, Yeah, a couple of things, alright,
and and we'll we'll end on this one couple of things.
First time I went, that just struck me. One. It
was three days before I saw a white person, and
then I saw a white person. I was like, hey,
that's a white person. That's just the weirdest thing. You

(58:16):
just I mean, as black people here in the United States,
we're you know, you can go days without seeing black
people depending on where you are, you know, and there's
just so few. And that's why black people, when black
people see each other, you notice that you got hey,
you know, I mean, we just do we just do, right,
because there's just not a lot of us. And so
now all of a sudden, I'm in a place where
everybody looks like me, you know, and I saw a

(58:38):
white person. I was like, hey, but yeah, that that
struck me. That that struck me, and I didn't realize
how much that would struck me. Another thing that struck
me is how these people sing there is that there

(59:04):
is an African harmony. It's very distinct, you know, and
you hear it. It was It was actually popular here
for a while. Who was that Paul Paul who is
the musician who brought a Ladybird black Mumbassa to sing

(59:26):
with him on his albums. This is yeah, Paul Simon, Yeah,
Paul Simon. And that sound when we hear it, we
know when you hear that African harmony, harmonization, you you
just know. And so culturally, folks, not a saying it
was great singing here earlier and being in the midst

(59:48):
of some places where churches obviously still sing music. And
and you guys know what I'm talking about, because now
in America we don't know how to sing anymore because
we drown a building with sound from instruments and scream

(01:00:08):
and you can barely hear yourself. And the last thing,
an American Christian knows how to do is to sing
with other Christians. We don't know how to do that.
And so, you know, I'm singing the bass part over here,
and I heard the tenors, you know, singing the tenor
part as we sang that, and like, okay. But that's
the extreme minority of churches where we still actually sing

(01:00:29):
songs and parts. And so go there, and these people,
because of their comfort level with voices singing together. I mean,
I felt like the place was going to shake sometimes,
you know, and it's everywhere they just sing out, you know,
And that was just a unique thing, just the way
people just sang out. And I would send videos back,

(01:00:51):
you know, like y'all listen to this. The other thing
that shocked me was I didn't hear the drum. I
just knew, Man, i'm going over there, I'm gonna hear
the African drum. I'm gonna hear that. You know, there
wasn't a drum. So I walked up with Conrad. I said, Conrad,
there's no drum. You know, somebody will play the piano
or whatever, and so I do it. I said, but
there's no drum. And Conrad said, well, you'll find that

(01:01:15):
in some of the Pentecostal circles, but the drum is
so intimately associated with animistic ancestor worship that we choose
not to use it. I'm like, oh, okay, that's another
one of those things where you got to be there

(01:01:37):
in order to write, in order to in order to
get that. So that was the other thing that struck me,
by the way, And another thing along with that is
that we're jeers and these people are, you know, singing
these songs that you go through their hymn though there's
not a note, it's just the words, and they know
the tunes and he just sang the tunes like I've

(01:02:01):
got a class or something for people to you know.
That was another thing that struck me, you know. And
they just just the relaxed atmosphere. Why it's not a hurry,
it's not a rush, you know. So those are things

(01:02:22):
that just kind of those things that just kind of
struck me, you know. Those those are things that just
kind of stood out to me. When the first time
I was there, I went to this place called John Lang,
and John Lang these are the poorest people I ever
appreciate to in John Lang, and this church was made
of cinder blocks, there's no running water, there's a squatty

(01:02:43):
potty outside, you know, you you know, whole deep hole
and anty a business. You know, you open the windows,
let air run through, no lights, no nothing, dirt floor.
And so I'm hearing John Lang and it's this project,
you know, you have to kind of work your way

(01:03:04):
through to get in there. And I get in there,
and I'm gonna preach, and then we're gonna have some
questions and this, that and the other. And so I
get into John Lang and I preach, and I feel like,
maybe I need to simplify, you know, what I'm preaching,
and so I kind of, you know, this simple message
there for these folks. And young lady had an epileptic

(01:03:24):
seizure while I was preaching. They just kind of took
care of her, wrote it out, and we went on.
I'm like, dude, we'd had to stop church, we had
to send you know it, you know, but they just
that's what's what happens. And we finished, and then we

(01:03:47):
had questions and one of the young men at this
you know, poorest people that I've ever preached to in
my life, where I simplified my message for these poor
Africans asked me what I thought about super lapsarianism. Evidently

(01:04:08):
you don't have to have shoes in order to have
good theology. And I was just broken and humbled. And
we spent the rest of the day talking about the
confession and talking about how they're trying to translate the
confession into you know, the native tongue and these sorts
of things, and you know, just all kinds of just wonderful, mature,

(01:04:32):
deep rich theological conversations with these people who are the
poorest people. I ever preached to it in my life.
It just, I don't know, man, just a different It's
a different deal. The other thing that struck me when
I was in Zambia is, like a lot of Third
world countries, they still have a servant culture. And as Americans,

(01:04:56):
we are so averse to that. The history of slavery
in this country is such a scar such it's like
almost still an open wound for us in this country.
You know, and you go there and there's a servant class,
and you know, people have servants who work for them,

(01:05:16):
and maids who work for them, and you know, gardeners
who work for them, and people who you know and
there's a lot of people there who live on you know,
less than two dollars a day. Right, They're dependent on
you know, folks who live in those houses over there,
hiring them to come sweep their dirt driveway, you know.

(01:05:39):
And that's something that just kind of gave me pause,
you know, and I had to kind of you know,
be able to wrap my head around. They drive on
the left side of the street. That's a problem. Yeah,

(01:06:01):
that's a problem. So yeah, those those are those are
just you know some of the things that just you know,
struck me. I'll tell you this and then and then
I'll be done. So I'm there for the first time.
And there's a man that I always look for every
time I go. His name is Grave Graves, and go go.

(01:06:24):
Grave is a pediatrician. He's a bivocational pastor, pastor and pediatrician, okay,
and he's you know sometimes teachers at the medical school.
And so again it just brilliant men all over in
the reform Baptist movement in Zambia. And so Grave was
pastoring at Emmanual Baptist Church and I preached at one church,

(01:06:46):
you know, one church in the morning, one church in
the evening on church in the afternoon, and I go
to preach at Graves Church and Grave's father. Whenever I
see Grave, I always ask Grave, how is our father?
Because when I first got there to the church, you know,
I come up and Grace's father, who's at the time
was eighty five years old. He's now ninety two. And

(01:07:10):
Grace's father came up to me. He had driven himself
to church. Shock old man. He walked up to me
and he greeted me and shook my hand, firm handshake, spry,
bright eyed, you know, and oh, welcome, you know. He said,
it's just your first time to Africa. I said, yes, sir,
it is. And he grabbed my face and he kissed

(01:07:34):
me and he said, my son, welcome home. And I
lost it. I lost it. And I'm standing there preaching
that day, and I think several hundred years ago, somebody

(01:07:54):
stole my ancestors, who were probably sold by my other
ancestors to the people who stole us, and took his
other ship and brought us over here. And it was horrendous.
It was horrendous what those people had to endure. And

(01:08:16):
now hundreds of years later, here I am at the
epicenter of Christianity with some of the best training and
discipleship that you can find in the world. And God
brought me back to deliver that to the place where

(01:08:37):
I was taken from.

Speaker 4 (01:08:40):
M Praise God.

Speaker 1 (01:08:43):
That's providence. That's providence, you know. So alright, I think
I've answered the question why Africa? Okay, alright,