April 16, 2025 • 34 mins
In this episode, Sarah sits down with Michael Bane, an incarcerated man fighting to prove his innocence. Michael opens up about the details of his case, what keeps him going behind bars, and how the public can help get his case the attention it deserves. Law students are now reviewing his case — and you can help, too. Reach out with tips, ideas, or support via his socials and donation page below. Every bit helps bring justice one step closer.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to Voiceles Behind Bars. I'm your host, Sarah Dearmund.
It's no secret that wrongful convictions happen all over the world,
but sadly, America's number one when it comes to the
most wrongful incarcerations, and that's not a good thing to
be number one at. However, here on this podcast, we
(00:25):
aim to give the mic to the wrongfully convicted, so
everyone can hear from their mouth what happened in their cases,
what went wrong, and hopefully together we can spread the word,
say their names, and give them the justice that's been
long overdue. Despite what people say, change is possible, but
(00:49):
none of us can do it alone. We need each other.
Change start with us. And while it's not easy, it
is definitely worth it. And again it is possible. Plus
the easy rouse boring anyway, So ready to make history.
This is Voiceless Fine bars.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Zomby, afraid of inside, be carefoodstacks, not every light's gone,
and got your baby.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
Don't let a vain I spike, keep.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
It close to your heart.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
I love the pressures. Kind of job.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
You crazy because you ri to the manness in the morning.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
It's all kind of van It's jon.
Speaker 4 (01:34):
Be afraid of it.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Side be care for woodstackes. Not every lad is gone
and guide you.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Yeah, when I blow up, I'm gonna saw a highlight.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
Peter Pan real life, be living out my dreams.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
I'm waking up persent a four whole risk cover up. Hello,
Welcome to Voices behind Bars. I'm your host Sarah d'arman.
Today on the show, we've got Michael Vain, who is
Watson convicted Austinessey's death row for nearly three six years. Michael,
thank you so much for coming on the show. Could
you please introduce yourself and tell us a little bit
about you.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
My name is Michael Bain, and like you said, I've
been on death row for thirty six years. Over thirty
six years now, oh yeah, over thirty six years.
Speaker 4 (02:21):
And this trial was quick, wasn't it.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
Yes, it was. We started picking a jury on a
Tuesday morning about nine o'clock and by Wednesday afternoon at
three thirty, I had to death only so I was
on a fast moving train going nowhere.
Speaker 4 (02:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Yeah, And the lawyer, the lawyer walked into the court
room with a legal tab in his hand, and I
knew I was in trouble. So he had his hand.
Speaker 4 (02:48):
And lawyer didn't try at all.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
Oh, he didn't try, you know. I mean he's at
that time, he had several people that was up here
on death row, and one of those guys got out
several years ago, and a couple of them been executed.
John Man.
Speaker 4 (03:07):
Yeah, Now, can I see starting up executions again, aren't they?
Speaker 3 (03:11):
Yes? The first one would be April to twenty second,
Oscar Franklin Smith.
Speaker 4 (03:19):
Yeah, so sure, so, okay, we're gonna walk back. This
happened in nineteen eighty eight, correct, Yes.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
No, remember the nineteenth and nineteen eighty eight, Okay, but
it was this when I was arrested. It happened. The
crime happened in November the seventeenth.
Speaker 4 (03:36):
All right, So what happened? Your girlfriend at the time
called the police and said, boyfriend's the motel and other girls.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
Yeah, she said, I was in the motel with another
girl and told the police she wanted them to come
down and arrest me, and the police order said I
can arrest him for that, you know, And she said, well,
she says, what if I tell you about a murder
that I committed? And he helped me and then after
that it just went off. Oh, it just went spiraling.
It changed, the story changed, Well, he committed the crime
(04:05):
and I hipped him and all this kind of stuff.
One of her sons was involved in it and all
that kind of stuff. He was the one that testified
against me. She never testified against me. She'd give a
statement to the police, but she never testified.
Speaker 4 (04:16):
Even the sons basically were there to kind of protect
their mom in a way.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
But yeah, yeah, that's what they've done. That's basically what
they've done. I mean, when you give several different stories,
and I'm sure somebody was feeding them all that information
and everything.
Speaker 4 (04:30):
Yeah, and he said their stories kept changing too, Like
we weren't they changing on the stand too.
Speaker 3 (04:35):
Yeah, the one had done all the testifying, the most
of the testifying, that wanted to put his help in
the crime and all that kind of stuff. He changed
his story several different times while he was on the
stand testifying. And my lawyer finally told him, he said, look,
he said, I've been out to that property. He says,
you can't see all that stuff you said you've seen.
He said, well, I lied, He said, I give the
police a statement lying about that. He says, Michael told
(04:58):
me all this stuff, and so that's how they found
me guilty.
Speaker 4 (05:04):
Well, so there are other people on the standard. They
never tied you to this crime, correct, No, no.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
No police, no police ever put me into say of
the crime or anything like that right there, or or
done said anything to hurt me in any kind of way.
Matter of fact. Uh, before the trial they had a
motion to suppress. That's where they tried to suppress evidence.
And the police that testified there, he testified him mostly
for me. He told him, he said, I don't think
(05:32):
this man done his crime. But they didn't use the
same officer at the trial, right, so they used to
somebody else that never even never even questioned me in
any kind.
Speaker 4 (05:43):
Of way because there's no investigation that the that your
warrior did because it's slicial at least to investigation. But
they never did anything like that.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
The lawyer on my trial, he never investigated that. He
I think he made a couple of calls and went
out to that's right, the man where the man was
murdered it and took pictures of the house. And that's
all he ever done. He never questioned none of my witnesses.
And I didn't face to face, you know, And people
don't even let you know. So you call somebody that
sad to tell them, say, well, I'm investigating this murder
(06:14):
for so and so and so and so, will you
talk to me about it? Most of them ain't even
really talk to you any more.
Speaker 4 (06:19):
It's true. Yeah, yeah, they don't, you know, Like I've
tried that a couple of times, you know, just to
get a statement for somebody who will help them with
the rows of conviction, you know, who was previously witnessed,
and they're just they're not interested. And so usually, like
you said, they're not gonna talk.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
So no, no, no, no no. And then when they
when they finally do get somebody to go do an investigation,
it was years later. I mean, this case happened in
eighty eight and I didn't get a private investigator on
my case until nineteen ninety. I'm in nineteen ninety five. Uh,
and that was during their resension here.
Speaker 4 (07:00):
And okay, so plain that I have learned from you, actually,
because I didn't. I'm yeah, I'm still worrying about the law.
So it's that for the capital murder trial, you don't
get bailed while you're in waiting in jail.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
No, no cap murders.
Speaker 4 (07:16):
Now, so there you go. So, but how long did
you went in jail before the trial?
Speaker 3 (07:23):
Say that again?
Speaker 4 (07:24):
How long did you went in jail before the trial?
Speaker 3 (07:28):
I got, like I said, I was in jail from
Noriver to the nineteenth until February the twentieth.
Speaker 4 (07:34):
Okay, so do you add all things in that home
you're in jail there might be some hope or did
you think the odds are against me?
Speaker 3 (07:43):
No? No, no, I actually thought, you know that they
would figure out the truth. You know what I'm saying. Yeah,
the law you're come to see me like two or
three different times while I was in the county jail.
And then we went to the trial and it was
just I mean it was it was just so fast
and so I don't know, it was hilarious to some degree. Yeah,
(08:04):
I thought, man, I thought, O lord, I mean I'm
in trouble. When when the lawyer was, you know, pushing
the people and all that kind of stuff, I said,
oh lord, I'm in trouble. I wouldn't have hired that
guy to be a Doug Catcher.
Speaker 4 (08:16):
Because there's some cases I'm working on. But it seems
stranger than fiction, like like it's almost hilarious. These cases
are truly like, if you were to look at this,
it is stranger than fiction. You would think, Okay, I
would never make this up because it is that chaotic.
I guess I could. I don't know what else to think,
because I'm like I if I were to make this
(08:38):
up for like a fictitious movie, people would think, Okay,
she's doing too much, she's being a extra. But no,
the stuff is it is all that horrible. It is
that I guess you could say messed up. I'm trying
to censor my language.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
But oh yeah, most definitely, most definitely. And here's the thing.
Right back in Memphis, back in that time, the prosecutors
would the judges, they would take that they would what
you call courtroom shops, so they would get the judge
that was on their side most of the time, and
(09:16):
they would say they would give you an attorney that
was gotten, not gonna do much. I mean, most of
the people up here that from Memphis had the same
problem that I have. The lawyers didn't do anything. That's
why they're here. Oh yeah, you know, there's no there's
no weak man on death row. I can promise you
that there's no wik man on death row. If he
had money to hire his own attorneys, he wouldn't be here.
Speaker 4 (09:34):
Oh, it's true. I was worried about that Equal Justice
Initiative statistics for death row that if you've got a
high power attorney, chances are better getting off but normally
off order. I mean, I couldn't afford a high power attorney.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
Oh no, no. And I don't know nobody that's here
with me right now that could do that, you know. Uh,
and and and that's that's a bad thing when you know,
if it's about the money, you know what I'm saying,
And it's not about you know, in the gift, it's
about money. And that's you know, it shouldn't be that way.
It shouldn't be that way at home. But it makes
(10:11):
sure it boils down to that. I mean, and and
and you think about it. I mean from from just
you know, I can't speak for anybody else, but from
just from my just from my experience. Uh. Most of
the times when you get locked up on a crime
like here, tell your family, your friends, they all turn
against you. That that's what happened to me. I mean,
like I said, I really didn't have any help until
(10:32):
the last couple of three years, I met some I
met some people here at the prison and we got
to be friends. And then the next thing I know,
they're you know, they're offering to help in any way
they can. You know, they just ain't got no money either.
Speaker 4 (10:46):
At the college career, everything's expensive and like just get toilets, trees, everything, it's.
Speaker 3 (10:52):
Oh everything expective. In our commissary, you can spend one
hundred and twenty five hours a week and that's own food.
And I want to tell you something. That bag is
so small for one hundred and twenty five dollars. It
is unreal. Yeah, it is unreal. And I have to
eat out of the commissary because the food here is
so bad. And I have a heart problem. I mean,
(11:13):
I've had a quadruple bypass several years ago, and I've
had several heart attacks, and I'm also a diabetic, so
I have to eat I can only eat certain kinds
of food or I'm in trouble. And they don't care about.
Speaker 4 (11:26):
That either, you know, no, they don't. And so with
I know you've reached out different organizations like Innocence Project,
and I've heard about this many times. With them, they
want you to exhaust all your appeals until then, and
by then, I mean, it's just your life is already
(11:50):
on the line. But then it's like it's even closer.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
Here's the thing right at you in the state of Tennessee.
At you run out of peals, no judge has to
hear anything you say anymore. So it's just an act
of God that gets you back into court for any reason.
It's just so. It's right now, I've still got appeals
going on. I'm into my last round of appeals, but
my appeals are still going on, so I've got time
(12:16):
to try to get some help. You know what I'm saying.
And it is unreal. It is unreal. What you have
to do. You have to study the law when you
first get it. When I first got so bad, I
had to start studying the law. I read every case
on Tennessee's death Row. Not because I want to know
what the crime was. I won't even know what kind
of issues the court was overturning cases on. And the
(12:41):
lawyers that, like I said, the lawyers like my lawyer
charged for sixty eight hours, charged the court for sixty
eight hours. That's all he worked on my case, and
that's not just through the trial, that's through my appeals
and everything until they took him off my case. Well,
they didn't take him off my case. I fired him, righted.
I fired him to get new attorneys in in ninety five,
nineteen ninety five, he had to go. I mean, he
(13:04):
filed in the peel brief for me that was only
like seven pages long, with sicking Oh god, and they
had already been ruled on in other cases, so they
was mute. There wasn't no good. Those issues wouldn't any
good for my case at all. But the people I
turned in the streets, they wouldn't realize just how bad
it is until they're involved in that situation themselves. Yeah.
(13:27):
I mean, you can tell people, you know, you know
people you know, you can tell people, hey, look I
didn't commit this crime. I mean this and all this
kind of stuff. But here's the thing. Right in nineteen
ninety three, I seen this episode of law I think
it was Law and Order. I'm not mistaken, but they
had DNA testing on them on some kind of crime.
And so I called my lawyer up. I said, hey, man,
I said, is that DNA testing stuff? Really? He said yeah.
(13:49):
I said, well, why don't we get a DNA testing done?
And they always say, well, I don't think that's a
good idea of Michael, And I'd say, okay, okay, well
we'll try it later on then. And every lawyer I've
ever had, I've asked for DNA testing and they'd always
say the same thing, I don't think that's a good idea.
To me, the way I look at that, if you
tell somebody you don't think that's a good idea when
(14:11):
that could prove your client's innocence, I feel like that
my client is guilty, you know what I'm saying. My
clind is guilty, or they'd be asking for this DNA.
So in twenty twenty two, in July twenty twenty two,
I told both of my lawyers I wanted to see him.
And I had gotten so tired and so frustrated with
the courts and with my lawyers and everything. And I
(14:32):
told him, I said, look, you got till September to
twelfth to file these motions and to get me back
in court on DNA testing or I said. I handed
them a six stateh motion that I had made up myself,
and I told him, I said, you can keep this copy.
You can read it and everything, and basically what it was.
It was me filing into the federal course. I'm in
federal court right now, but i' mean I got back
(14:54):
in state court to get to the DNA testing. I
got back in state court and I all the DNA.
But I told him, I said, look man, And I
was crying because I was so frustrated and so aggravated.
They hadn't done anything to try to hit me. So
I told him, I said, look man, I said, I'm
on fivebvious. If you don't do what I asked you
to do by September twelfth. On September thirteen, I said,
(15:14):
that motion is daily for September thirteenth. You can look
at it and read it. And I said, I'm gonna
drop my appeals and ask the court for an execution date.
I said, because I'm tired of this mass. I said,
it's not I'm gonna end up being execute anyway. So
it don't really don't matter if I let y'all keep
on doing what y'all doing. And there's they're federal uh
hate they're federal uh federal uh uh. We call them
(15:35):
a pointed lawyers, you know.
Speaker 4 (15:37):
Yeah, yeah, pull bunch offenders. Yeah, just thinking about federal
public defenders because I was thinking about another case on
off federal They work ye yah.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
Work for the same government they're trying to kill me.
Speaker 4 (15:51):
So that's exactly right, exactly because they're not going to
go against the bass.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
No, no, you know that. You know that, and I
know you know so I just but I told them,
I said, look, you know, if I do this right here,
the judge is gonna call me into the courtroom and
gonna ask me why am I doing this after all
these years, And I'm gonna tell them what it is.
Y'all are not doing anything to try to help me,
to help me get off the death road, try to
get me out of prison. And still, you know, it's
(16:21):
just crazy. All the stuff you have to go through
this place is nothing physical. I mean, I've had a
lot of stuff happened to me since I've been here.
I've had several heart attacks. I've had more than I've
had more than more than seven heart attacks.
Speaker 4 (16:34):
I've had fine pass.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
Surgeries in nineteen On September fifth of nineteen ninety four,
somebody that I thought was my best friend walked up
behind me and cut my throat and me in a heart,
cut my kidneys open, and I mean, that's just so
crazy in a place like this, you know what I'm saying.
And so I've lived through so much stuff, it's it's
(16:57):
totally unreal. I couldn't believe all the stuff I've you know,
when I tell my friends about all the stuff I've
been through, they can't believe it. I mean, the doctor
told some interns the very next day after I woke
up from having us the surgery, after my throat was cut,
he said, if I'd had to have a half a
cup of blood out of this man's body yesterday, he
said he would have been dead. He said he didn't
have no blood in his body. And because he cut
(17:19):
my juggle band completely into right, so I believe it.
You know, that was an act of God. You know
what I'm saying. Only God can can keep you from
dying in a situation like that right there. Nobody else can.
You know, you got to have faith in something, And
I believe in God. I'm not a Christian and I
don't claim to me, but I'm a spiritual person and
(17:41):
I do right. God he just crashes my lord and
save it. So that makes a difference to me. It
might might not make a difference to anybody else, but
it does me.
Speaker 4 (17:51):
Yeah, I understand. And you know with the DNA testing,
didn't they eventually get that done.
Speaker 3 (17:59):
They've got some of it done, They've got most of
it done. We've got four more items that need to
be tested, and uh, that should be done by sometime
in April. Okay, but here's the thing, right, my lawyer said, well,
if this comes this is what my lawyer tells me. Now,
we got we got, we got most of the DNA testing,
and it comes back and it's not me, it's they
(18:19):
know it's somebody else, but they don't know whose it is.
And so we're gonna run it all through COCAS in April.
And and they said, well, we got to prove who's
done it. I said, no, we don't. Why don't we
Are we trying to prove is that I didn't do it?
I said, I'm not trying to do the state's job.
Speaker 4 (18:32):
That's not my job exactly.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
But these lawyers and well, will we get to other
we get we're trying to get the DNA testing on
on on the murder weapons, right and stuff like that
right there, and she said, well, if it comes back
it's not you. I said, what do you mean, if
it comes back it's not me? And here's the thing
that that these people think. I got a copy of
all the DNA testing we've done so far. It comes
back to be female. It's on Even though they're going
(18:57):
to test this these last four items, they've already they
already know that it's female DNA on this thing. It's
not male DNA on this stuff, so they know it's
not mine. You know what I'm saying, right, But the
best you say, the best you say you can do
for me is give me, get me a new sense
in here, so maybe I can get a life sentence.
Guess what, I'm not trying to do a life sentence.
I've already done a life sentence. You know what I'm saying.
That's right, But that's what these lawyers, these quarter pointed
(19:20):
lawyers tell you. You know, we can get you a
new sense here. Are you really serious when you say
something like that, when you're gonna have the DNA to
prove that I didn't commit this crime? My my DNA
and my fingerprints are not on these murder weapons or
anything like that. Right there, that's.
Speaker 4 (19:33):
Crazy, that's ludicrous exactly. It's like and like you said,
you're not trying to do the state yah for them?
Is that the proof right there? Like that makes me speechless, right,
It's it's unreal.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
I mean, I mean, I mean, not only do you
have to prove that you didn't do the crime, but
then when you do do that, they're gonna change the
theory of the crime altogether. You know what I'm saying.
They always do that. They always do that. It's like
any case you ever seen were they do dnaks and
well he might have not done this, but he was there.
You know what I'm saying, that's crazy and ludicrous. That
(20:10):
wasn't your theory of the crime when you told it
to the jury. You know what I'm saying, The jury
might the one that found you get based on the
evidence that they heard.
Speaker 4 (20:19):
And recently I was I could do some people online
about and they said, you know, without a reasonable doubt
did the jury all were they able to prove that
this person all was guilty without a reasonable doubt? And
I would say no, I to let person bing go.
They did not prove that without a reasonable doubt. And
(20:42):
people forget that, especially the jury themselves.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I had one lady on my
jury that years later autil they'd done an investigation in
ninety five, when they had done an investigation, she said,
I didn't even want to vote he was guilty. She said,
I didn't even want to do that, she said, but
I I was bullied in this vote because they it
was they would wanted to go home.
Speaker 4 (21:03):
Mmhmm. You know, and you didn't want woman like not
pay much attention there in your trial, like, yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:11):
One of the women was sleeping during the trial and
then she's still voted for.
Speaker 4 (21:14):
Guilty there yeah mm hmm.
Speaker 3 (21:18):
And the judge, and the judge knew that she was
asleep and didn't say or do nothing about it. M
And then when added to the court, when you start
finding your appeals and everything, uh, them justices they don't
want to hear stuff like that. They'd rather go against
the law and keep.
Speaker 4 (21:30):
You on death row exactly, you know, ruling your favor
and all. This is a bailiff also talked to jurors
as well, because that's go ahead, Yeah they are.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
What they've done was the bailiff told the Jews, said,
you don't have to worry about finding him guilty him
getting the dead and said, they don't execute people in
Tennessee anymore.
Speaker 4 (21:57):
And do you want to say they're not supposed to
do that, they still do it.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
Yep, you'll do it.
Speaker 4 (22:06):
Yeah, yeah at all. Now one of the people that
testify against you think one of them the kids you know,
doesn't he recanted since then?
Speaker 3 (22:19):
Yeah, uh the youngest boy. He recanted and said that
that uh, that most of the stuff he said was
was wasn't true, that his mother and brother was the
one that told him to say that stuff, and that
I wasn't even around when most of that stuff they
was talking about happened. Mm hm.
Speaker 4 (22:38):
Has he been helpful since then?
Speaker 3 (22:41):
He's tried to be uh m, he's tried to be,
but that you know, the lawyers that I mean, they
really don't want to talk to him. They mean to
talk to him one time, you know what I'm saying.
It didn't really get a lot at him. I don't
think they was even trying to get a lot out
of him.
Speaker 4 (22:57):
No. So I know that you have the free Michael
band accounts, which we will link, But so I guess basically,
you know, like I we talked about this too while
I'm so glad that ron convictions like the word is
out more than ever. You know, it is a bit oversaturated,
(23:19):
so it's a bit harder stand it out. So, yes,
sharing does help. I'm going to keep saying that. I'm
going to keep singing that it helps, but I'll but
what can we do to help you? Basically?
Speaker 3 (23:35):
You know, I really don't have a flu except just
trying to raise money to get a lawyer. Other than that,
you know what I'm saying, that's aid bet that most
anybody can do. And you know that takes a lot
of money.
Speaker 4 (23:49):
It does takes a lot of money.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
Most people won't even touch a diffility case for less
than one hundred and fifty thousand dollars. That is no joke.
I mean, I mean you said you was trying to
help somebody else in the federal court system, in the
federal death road and everything, or wherever he's at. And
you know that if you try to get a law
unless you can't get somebody to take the case pro bono,
(24:11):
you're shot in the dark. Oh yes, yes, yes, yes, yeses. Yes.
I had a friend of mine that it was my
attorney when I first got in the federal court me
and her got that we didn't start out is to
be good friends, but we got to be good friends.
And it was probably she is probably the only lawyer
that I've ever trusted in my whole entire life. That
(24:34):
is no joke. But after she left here, she lived
here in twenty sixteen and moved to New York to
work for the NAACP. Yeah, the NAACP. And then she's
quit that job and went to teaching that what was
she teaching at? What was that law? She's been teaching
it at several colleges there in New York. One of
(24:56):
them was Brooklyn Law. One of them was what was
it Cambridge?
Speaker 4 (25:01):
It wasn't to look that up real quick, I'm gonna
be telling you about.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
That several It was several of them. And she got
all this power and influence with all these lawyers all
across the country, cost every She's really very intelligent. She's
a very intelligent woman. And uh uh I called her
up here. But let's see, it's been about a year
ago last month that I called her and I said, hey, Alexis,
I said, look here, I said, I know you care
(25:26):
about me and everything, I said, but look, you got
all this power. You know, all these these these lawyers
and everything. I said, all these big time lawyers that
didn't know the law and know how to help people
and everything. I said, why can't you get one of
them to help me? And uh, she said, I feel
like I've done all I can do. And I mean,
she wouldn't even try to lift a finger to help me, so, uh,
(25:47):
she she apologized for that. And when I sent her
a copy of the d I sent her a copy
of the DNA or I had somebody send her a
copy of the DNA stuff before it comes back that
it wasn't me and everything, and she apologized right away.
I mean, she said, you know, I'm sorry. I said,
you know what I said when you told me that
you didn't feel like it was a good idea, I said,
I kind of figured that you thought I was guilty.
(26:08):
And she just said, I'm sorry. That's all she said.
But since that time, since that conversation, she's never reached
out to talk to me again.
Speaker 4 (26:17):
And how long has it been.
Speaker 3 (26:19):
It's been a year ago last month and I've talked.
I haven't talked to her, but I know some of
her friends that they're still working on my case and
They asked me all the time, Hey, have you talked
to a Lectis lady? I said no. They said, well,
why have you reached out to her? I said that
reaching out and goes both ways. I said, she know
what how she treated me, She knows what she's done.
(26:39):
You know, it wasn't right. I feel like I feel
like this right here. I don't I let myself get
get too involved with her because we got to be friends,
like I said, but you can't be friends with a
lawyer when they're not trying to help you like they
you know they can't do it, you know what I'm saying.
You know that they can do better than they done,
and they know they can do better than they're done,
(26:59):
but they didn't do it. You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 4 (27:01):
Yeah, it is incredibly incredibly disappointing, disheartening. And you know,
like I have friends who are are which they got friends,
people I once respected in the nonprofit sector who I
know can do more and they have not. They choose
to do not to it, And like I say, it's disappointing.
(27:23):
And with all nonprofits, I just I'm more wary of
them a lot more.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
You know, I probably shouldn't say this, but I'm going
to You've got so many organizations out there that could
help if they wanted to.
Speaker 4 (27:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
But sometimes to me, sometimes to me, when I when
when when when when I reach out to these people
in these organizations, these nonprofits and in all these places,
and and they tell me, no, I'm wondering, are they
just playing games with the public to get all this
money from the government? Stuff? Like they her to say
they're doing this, and they're doing it, and they're really
not doing a thing if.
Speaker 4 (28:00):
What they're doing, That's what I wonder, because there's that's
from my end, what I see are a lot of
empty promises with a lot of these organizations, a lot
of empty promises.
Speaker 3 (28:10):
Most definitely, I get that. I get that a lot.
I think about that a lot. You know you're doing
you say you're doing this, and you say you're doing that,
and may and sometimes they I think they pick and
choose who they want to help.
Speaker 4 (28:22):
Yeah, Now sometime I thing you help people, but it's
more about pick and choosing.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I completely agree with it.
Speaker 4 (28:32):
Yeah, And.
Speaker 3 (28:34):
It doesn't seem to be getting any better.
Speaker 4 (28:37):
No, it's not.
Speaker 3 (28:38):
No, And.
Speaker 4 (28:39):
Like I said, when I first, well start advocate. I'm
like bright a bushytails all the all these nonprofits are
doing great. It's gray chart. No, no, it's like you said,
the facade, you know, to keep that federal funding going
and keep the donations going all that, and oh but
I do think more than but that doesn't mean that.
(29:01):
You know, first, I think first of all, smaller organizations,
the ones that are you know, have kind of our
shoe spring budget. Better way to go. Go fund these
and also go and watch to straighten the source such
as you like, loads are the best ways to go.
That's where you really know where your money's going.
Speaker 3 (29:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (29:25):
Yeah, so that's of course way right there to help. Also,
like I said, sharing petition also, I uh, I did
want to ask, Oh I want to put out there.
You know when it comes to somewhat law schools, I
know that this is something I'm looking into myself. Sometimes
(29:47):
they will study case. Help out, So that would help.
Submitting his case to a law school maybe see if
they will study it. You need to call me back,
Oh yes, please run it out. Yeah all right, So,
like I said, so then you get to a law school,
(30:09):
see if they school will study the case, because I
know they've done that with a lot of wrongful convictions
such as Dusty Turner, and also I will I'll leave
additional ideas down below, like I know some places where
you can submit all cases all, like some websites where
you can submit cases for like both articles on the
(30:32):
site who spread the worry about wrongful convictions they have
That helps a lot. I've submitted some cases, but yeah,
have I got anywhere now?
Speaker 3 (30:45):
With me?
Speaker 4 (30:46):
It helped a little bit with the petition and with
some donations, so it helps a little bit. Yeah, So
it didn't help dramatically, but it helped a little bit
with the signatures and some a little bit of money.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
So yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (31:02):
But I also really like the way they wrote it
because I, you know, worked These are some of my colleagues,
so I worked alongside them with you know, writing somethings,
making sure all the facts were straight. I can always
want to show you example if you'd like, because this
is something they do for a living. So I really
(31:24):
I was very happy with it. But like I said,
well cover that you know very soon.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
So but like.
Speaker 4 (31:33):
I petitions, the reason why I stress those is because
that is something I've seen them take into account when
the appeals process. But it also helps get the word out.
It helps people research the case, which we do encourage,
you know, don't just listen, you know, fall blindly. We
do want you to do your research because I mean,
(31:56):
got nothing to hide.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know. I would really like to
have a lawyer on this DNA testing. I think that
would solve all. A good lawyer on my DNA test.
I think that would be a good I think that
would be better for me than a lawyer on appeals.
I really do stops everything. If you get the case
overturned on the DNA testing alone, that stops everything. You know,
you don't have to going to any other peels.
Speaker 4 (32:19):
Yes, if you know a lawyer, absolutely submit this to them.
And so again thank you for coming on. We're gonna
keep people updated the DNA testing. Please keep us updated
and we'll have you back on and everyone, as always,
keep spraying that word. Show me afraid. It's the care
(32:40):
food stacks. Not every light is gone and carry baby
does that a very nice big keep.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
It close to your house, Oh love.
Speaker 4 (32:50):
The pressure's kind of jove you crazy because your right
to the bad.
Speaker 3 (32:56):
In the morning.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
It's all kind of then it's showing me.
Speaker 4 (33:00):
Iv is, be careful wisides, and that's a wrap for today.
Thank you so much for tuning in.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
If you haven't already, please click that follow button so
you can get updates for new episodes and if you'd
like to get more updates about the people we've not
only featured on this podcast, but also updates about other
cases as well as other ways to fight against this
injustice system, please follow me on social media Instagram, TikTok,
(33:29):
and blue Sky under the same user name.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
It's Sair only.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
I T S s A R A h O N
l Y. It's Sair only. I also have my own
five oh one c three nonprofit, Voiceless behind Bars. That's
Voiceless behind bars dot org. And while I run and
own that nonprofit, this podcast, while it has the same name,
because we stand for the same thing against romple convictions
(33:57):
and we stand against this and J system, this podcast
is one and owned by the wonderful Prison.
Speaker 4 (34:04):
Audio, so one be transparent about that one.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
So again, thank you for tuning in. Let's continue to
make change happen together.
Welcome to Voiceles Behind Bars. I'm your host, Sarah Dearmund.
It's no secret that wrongful convictions happen all over the world,
but sadly, America's number one when it comes to the
most wrongful incarcerations, and that's not a good thing to
be number one at. However, here on this podcast, we
(00:25):
aim to give the mic to the wrongfully convicted, so
everyone can hear from their mouth what happened in their cases,
what went wrong, and hopefully together we can spread the word,
say their names, and give them the justice that's been
long overdue. Despite what people say, change is possible, but
(00:49):
none of us can do it alone. We need each other.
Change start with us. And while it's not easy, it
is definitely worth it. And again it is possible. Plus
the easy rouse boring anyway, So ready to make history.
This is Voiceless Fine bars.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Zomby, afraid of inside, be carefoodstacks, not every light's gone,
and got your baby.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
Don't let a vain I spike, keep.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
It close to your heart.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
I love the pressures. Kind of job.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
You crazy because you ri to the manness in the morning.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
It's all kind of van It's jon.
Speaker 4 (01:34):
Be afraid of it.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Side be care for woodstackes. Not every lad is gone
and guide you.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Yeah, when I blow up, I'm gonna saw a highlight.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
Peter Pan real life, be living out my dreams.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
I'm waking up persent a four whole risk cover up. Hello,
Welcome to Voices behind Bars. I'm your host Sarah d'arman.
Today on the show, we've got Michael Vain, who is
Watson convicted Austinessey's death row for nearly three six years. Michael,
thank you so much for coming on the show. Could
you please introduce yourself and tell us a little bit
about you.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
My name is Michael Bain, and like you said, I've
been on death row for thirty six years. Over thirty
six years now, oh yeah, over thirty six years.
Speaker 4 (02:21):
And this trial was quick, wasn't it.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
Yes, it was. We started picking a jury on a
Tuesday morning about nine o'clock and by Wednesday afternoon at
three thirty, I had to death only so I was
on a fast moving train going nowhere.
Speaker 4 (02:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Yeah, And the lawyer, the lawyer walked into the court
room with a legal tab in his hand, and I
knew I was in trouble. So he had his hand.
Speaker 4 (02:48):
And lawyer didn't try at all.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
Oh, he didn't try, you know. I mean he's at
that time, he had several people that was up here
on death row, and one of those guys got out
several years ago, and a couple of them been executed.
John Man.
Speaker 4 (03:07):
Yeah, Now, can I see starting up executions again, aren't they?
Speaker 3 (03:11):
Yes? The first one would be April to twenty second,
Oscar Franklin Smith.
Speaker 4 (03:19):
Yeah, so sure, so, okay, we're gonna walk back. This
happened in nineteen eighty eight, correct, Yes.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
No, remember the nineteenth and nineteen eighty eight, Okay, but
it was this when I was arrested. It happened. The
crime happened in November the seventeenth.
Speaker 4 (03:36):
All right, So what happened? Your girlfriend at the time
called the police and said, boyfriend's the motel and other girls.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
Yeah, she said, I was in the motel with another
girl and told the police she wanted them to come
down and arrest me, and the police order said I
can arrest him for that, you know, And she said, well,
she says, what if I tell you about a murder
that I committed? And he helped me and then after
that it just went off. Oh, it just went spiraling.
It changed, the story changed, Well, he committed the crime
(04:05):
and I hipped him and all this kind of stuff.
One of her sons was involved in it and all
that kind of stuff. He was the one that testified
against me. She never testified against me. She'd give a
statement to the police, but she never testified.
Speaker 4 (04:16):
Even the sons basically were there to kind of protect
their mom in a way.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
But yeah, yeah, that's what they've done. That's basically what
they've done. I mean, when you give several different stories,
and I'm sure somebody was feeding them all that information
and everything.
Speaker 4 (04:30):
Yeah, and he said their stories kept changing too, Like
we weren't they changing on the stand too.
Speaker 3 (04:35):
Yeah, the one had done all the testifying, the most
of the testifying, that wanted to put his help in
the crime and all that kind of stuff. He changed
his story several different times while he was on the
stand testifying. And my lawyer finally told him, he said, look,
he said, I've been out to that property. He says,
you can't see all that stuff you said you've seen.
He said, well, I lied, He said, I give the
police a statement lying about that. He says, Michael told
(04:58):
me all this stuff, and so that's how they found
me guilty.
Speaker 4 (05:04):
Well, so there are other people on the standard. They
never tied you to this crime, correct, No, no.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
No police, no police ever put me into say of
the crime or anything like that right there, or or
done said anything to hurt me in any kind of way.
Matter of fact. Uh, before the trial they had a
motion to suppress. That's where they tried to suppress evidence.
And the police that testified there, he testified him mostly
for me. He told him, he said, I don't think
(05:32):
this man done his crime. But they didn't use the
same officer at the trial, right, so they used to
somebody else that never even never even questioned me in
any kind.
Speaker 4 (05:43):
Of way because there's no investigation that the that your
warrior did because it's slicial at least to investigation. But
they never did anything like that.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
The lawyer on my trial, he never investigated that. He
I think he made a couple of calls and went
out to that's right, the man where the man was
murdered it and took pictures of the house. And that's
all he ever done. He never questioned none of my witnesses.
And I didn't face to face, you know, And people
don't even let you know. So you call somebody that
sad to tell them, say, well, I'm investigating this murder
(06:14):
for so and so and so and so, will you
talk to me about it? Most of them ain't even
really talk to you any more.
Speaker 4 (06:19):
It's true. Yeah, yeah, they don't, you know, Like I've
tried that a couple of times, you know, just to
get a statement for somebody who will help them with
the rows of conviction, you know, who was previously witnessed,
and they're just they're not interested. And so usually, like
you said, they're not gonna talk.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
So no, no, no, no no. And then when they
when they finally do get somebody to go do an investigation,
it was years later. I mean, this case happened in
eighty eight and I didn't get a private investigator on
my case until nineteen ninety. I'm in nineteen ninety five. Uh,
and that was during their resension here.
Speaker 4 (07:00):
And okay, so plain that I have learned from you, actually,
because I didn't. I'm yeah, I'm still worrying about the law.
So it's that for the capital murder trial, you don't
get bailed while you're in waiting in jail.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
No, no cap murders.
Speaker 4 (07:16):
Now, so there you go. So, but how long did
you went in jail before the trial?
Speaker 3 (07:23):
Say that again?
Speaker 4 (07:24):
How long did you went in jail before the trial?
Speaker 3 (07:28):
I got, like I said, I was in jail from
Noriver to the nineteenth until February the twentieth.
Speaker 4 (07:34):
Okay, so do you add all things in that home
you're in jail there might be some hope or did
you think the odds are against me?
Speaker 3 (07:43):
No? No, no, I actually thought, you know that they
would figure out the truth. You know what I'm saying. Yeah,
the law you're come to see me like two or
three different times while I was in the county jail.
And then we went to the trial and it was
just I mean it was it was just so fast
and so I don't know, it was hilarious to some degree. Yeah,
(08:04):
I thought, man, I thought, O lord, I mean I'm
in trouble. When when the lawyer was, you know, pushing
the people and all that kind of stuff, I said,
oh lord, I'm in trouble. I wouldn't have hired that
guy to be a Doug Catcher.
Speaker 4 (08:16):
Because there's some cases I'm working on. But it seems
stranger than fiction, like like it's almost hilarious. These cases
are truly like, if you were to look at this,
it is stranger than fiction. You would think, Okay, I
would never make this up because it is that chaotic.
I guess I could. I don't know what else to think,
because I'm like I if I were to make this
(08:38):
up for like a fictitious movie, people would think, Okay,
she's doing too much, she's being a extra. But no,
the stuff is it is all that horrible. It is
that I guess you could say messed up. I'm trying
to censor my language.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
But oh yeah, most definitely, most definitely. And here's the thing.
Right back in Memphis, back in that time, the prosecutors
would the judges, they would take that they would what
you call courtroom shops, so they would get the judge
that was on their side most of the time, and
(09:16):
they would say they would give you an attorney that
was gotten, not gonna do much. I mean, most of
the people up here that from Memphis had the same
problem that I have. The lawyers didn't do anything. That's
why they're here. Oh yeah, you know, there's no there's
no weak man on death row. I can promise you
that there's no wik man on death row. If he
had money to hire his own attorneys, he wouldn't be here.
Speaker 4 (09:34):
Oh, it's true. I was worried about that Equal Justice
Initiative statistics for death row that if you've got a
high power attorney, chances are better getting off but normally
off order. I mean, I couldn't afford a high power attorney.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
Oh no, no. And I don't know nobody that's here
with me right now that could do that, you know. Uh,
and and and that's that's a bad thing when you know,
if it's about the money, you know what I'm saying,
And it's not about you know, in the gift, it's
about money. And that's you know, it shouldn't be that way.
It shouldn't be that way at home. But it makes
(10:11):
sure it boils down to that. I mean, and and
and you think about it. I mean from from just
you know, I can't speak for anybody else, but from
just from my just from my experience. Uh. Most of
the times when you get locked up on a crime
like here, tell your family, your friends, they all turn
against you. That that's what happened to me. I mean,
like I said, I really didn't have any help until
(10:32):
the last couple of three years, I met some I
met some people here at the prison and we got
to be friends. And then the next thing I know,
they're you know, they're offering to help in any way
they can. You know, they just ain't got no money either.
Speaker 4 (10:46):
At the college career, everything's expensive and like just get toilets, trees, everything, it's.
Speaker 3 (10:52):
Oh everything expective. In our commissary, you can spend one
hundred and twenty five hours a week and that's own food.
And I want to tell you something. That bag is
so small for one hundred and twenty five dollars. It
is unreal. Yeah, it is unreal. And I have to
eat out of the commissary because the food here is
so bad. And I have a heart problem. I mean,
(11:13):
I've had a quadruple bypass several years ago, and I've
had several heart attacks, and I'm also a diabetic, so
I have to eat I can only eat certain kinds
of food or I'm in trouble. And they don't care about.
Speaker 4 (11:26):
That either, you know, no, they don't. And so with
I know you've reached out different organizations like Innocence Project,
and I've heard about this many times. With them, they
want you to exhaust all your appeals until then, and
by then, I mean, it's just your life is already
(11:50):
on the line. But then it's like it's even closer.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
Here's the thing right at you in the state of Tennessee.
At you run out of peals, no judge has to
hear anything you say anymore. So it's just an act
of God that gets you back into court for any reason.
It's just so. It's right now, I've still got appeals
going on. I'm into my last round of appeals, but
my appeals are still going on, so I've got time
(12:16):
to try to get some help. You know what I'm saying.
And it is unreal. It is unreal. What you have
to do. You have to study the law when you
first get it. When I first got so bad, I
had to start studying the law. I read every case
on Tennessee's death Row. Not because I want to know
what the crime was. I won't even know what kind
of issues the court was overturning cases on. And the
(12:41):
lawyers that, like I said, the lawyers like my lawyer
charged for sixty eight hours, charged the court for sixty
eight hours. That's all he worked on my case, and
that's not just through the trial, that's through my appeals
and everything until they took him off my case. Well,
they didn't take him off my case. I fired him, righted.
I fired him to get new attorneys in in ninety five,
nineteen ninety five, he had to go. I mean, he
(13:04):
filed in the peel brief for me that was only
like seven pages long, with sicking Oh god, and they
had already been ruled on in other cases, so they
was mute. There wasn't no good. Those issues wouldn't any
good for my case at all. But the people I
turned in the streets, they wouldn't realize just how bad
it is until they're involved in that situation themselves. Yeah.
(13:27):
I mean, you can tell people, you know, you know
people you know, you can tell people, hey, look I
didn't commit this crime. I mean this and all this
kind of stuff. But here's the thing. Right in nineteen
ninety three, I seen this episode of law I think
it was Law and Order. I'm not mistaken, but they
had DNA testing on them on some kind of crime.
And so I called my lawyer up. I said, hey, man,
I said, is that DNA testing stuff? Really? He said yeah.
(13:49):
I said, well, why don't we get a DNA testing done?
And they always say, well, I don't think that's a
good idea of Michael, And I'd say, okay, okay, well
we'll try it later on then. And every lawyer I've
ever had, I've asked for DNA testing and they'd always
say the same thing, I don't think that's a good idea.
To me, the way I look at that, if you
tell somebody you don't think that's a good idea when
(14:11):
that could prove your client's innocence, I feel like that
my client is guilty, you know what I'm saying. My
clind is guilty, or they'd be asking for this DNA.
So in twenty twenty two, in July twenty twenty two,
I told both of my lawyers I wanted to see him.
And I had gotten so tired and so frustrated with
the courts and with my lawyers and everything. And I
(14:32):
told him, I said, look, you got till September to
twelfth to file these motions and to get me back
in court on DNA testing or I said. I handed
them a six stateh motion that I had made up myself,
and I told him, I said, you can keep this copy.
You can read it and everything, and basically what it was.
It was me filing into the federal course. I'm in
federal court right now, but i' mean I got back
(14:54):
in state court to get to the DNA testing. I
got back in state court and I all the DNA.
But I told him, I said, look man, And I
was crying because I was so frustrated and so aggravated.
They hadn't done anything to try to hit me. So
I told him, I said, look man, I said, I'm
on fivebvious. If you don't do what I asked you
to do by September twelfth. On September thirteen, I said,
(15:14):
that motion is daily for September thirteenth. You can look
at it and read it. And I said, I'm gonna
drop my appeals and ask the court for an execution date.
I said, because I'm tired of this mass. I said,
it's not I'm gonna end up being execute anyway. So
it don't really don't matter if I let y'all keep
on doing what y'all doing. And there's they're federal uh
hate they're federal uh federal uh uh. We call them
(15:35):
a pointed lawyers, you know.
Speaker 4 (15:37):
Yeah, yeah, pull bunch offenders. Yeah, just thinking about federal
public defenders because I was thinking about another case on
off federal They work ye yah.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
Work for the same government they're trying to kill me.
Speaker 4 (15:51):
So that's exactly right, exactly because they're not going to
go against the bass.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
No, no, you know that. You know that, and I
know you know so I just but I told them,
I said, look, you know, if I do this right here,
the judge is gonna call me into the courtroom and
gonna ask me why am I doing this after all
these years, And I'm gonna tell them what it is.
Y'all are not doing anything to try to help me,
to help me get off the death road, try to
get me out of prison. And still, you know, it's
(16:21):
just crazy. All the stuff you have to go through
this place is nothing physical. I mean, I've had a
lot of stuff happened to me since I've been here.
I've had several heart attacks. I've had more than I've
had more than more than seven heart attacks.
Speaker 4 (16:34):
I've had fine pass.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
Surgeries in nineteen On September fifth of nineteen ninety four,
somebody that I thought was my best friend walked up
behind me and cut my throat and me in a heart,
cut my kidneys open, and I mean, that's just so
crazy in a place like this, you know what I'm saying.
And so I've lived through so much stuff, it's it's
(16:57):
totally unreal. I couldn't believe all the stuff I've you know,
when I tell my friends about all the stuff I've
been through, they can't believe it. I mean, the doctor
told some interns the very next day after I woke
up from having us the surgery, after my throat was cut,
he said, if I'd had to have a half a
cup of blood out of this man's body yesterday, he
said he would have been dead. He said he didn't
have no blood in his body. And because he cut
(17:19):
my juggle band completely into right, so I believe it.
You know, that was an act of God. You know
what I'm saying. Only God can can keep you from
dying in a situation like that right there. Nobody else can.
You know, you got to have faith in something, And
I believe in God. I'm not a Christian and I
don't claim to me, but I'm a spiritual person and
(17:41):
I do right. God he just crashes my lord and
save it. So that makes a difference to me. It
might might not make a difference to anybody else, but
it does me.
Speaker 4 (17:51):
Yeah, I understand. And you know with the DNA testing,
didn't they eventually get that done.
Speaker 3 (17:59):
They've got some of it done, They've got most of
it done. We've got four more items that need to
be tested, and uh, that should be done by sometime
in April. Okay, but here's the thing, right, my lawyer said, well,
if this comes this is what my lawyer tells me. Now,
we got we got, we got most of the DNA testing,
and it comes back and it's not me, it's they
(18:19):
know it's somebody else, but they don't know whose it is.
And so we're gonna run it all through COCAS in April.
And and they said, well, we got to prove who's
done it. I said, no, we don't. Why don't we
Are we trying to prove is that I didn't do it?
I said, I'm not trying to do the state's job.
Speaker 4 (18:32):
That's not my job exactly.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
But these lawyers and well, will we get to other
we get we're trying to get the DNA testing on
on on the murder weapons, right and stuff like that
right there, and she said, well, if it comes back
it's not you. I said, what do you mean, if
it comes back it's not me? And here's the thing
that that these people think. I got a copy of
all the DNA testing we've done so far. It comes
back to be female. It's on Even though they're going
(18:57):
to test this these last four items, they've already they
already know that it's female DNA on this thing. It's
not male DNA on this stuff, so they know it's
not mine. You know what I'm saying, right, But the
best you say, the best you say you can do
for me is give me, get me a new sense
in here, so maybe I can get a life sentence.
Guess what, I'm not trying to do a life sentence.
I've already done a life sentence. You know what I'm saying.
That's right, But that's what these lawyers, these quarter pointed
(19:20):
lawyers tell you. You know, we can get you a
new sense here. Are you really serious when you say
something like that, when you're gonna have the DNA to
prove that I didn't commit this crime? My my DNA
and my fingerprints are not on these murder weapons or
anything like that. Right there, that's.
Speaker 4 (19:33):
Crazy, that's ludicrous exactly. It's like and like you said,
you're not trying to do the state yah for them?
Is that the proof right there? Like that makes me speechless, right,
It's it's unreal.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
I mean, I mean, I mean, not only do you
have to prove that you didn't do the crime, but
then when you do do that, they're gonna change the
theory of the crime altogether. You know what I'm saying.
They always do that. They always do that. It's like
any case you ever seen were they do dnaks and
well he might have not done this, but he was there.
You know what I'm saying, that's crazy and ludicrous. That
(20:10):
wasn't your theory of the crime when you told it
to the jury. You know what I'm saying, The jury
might the one that found you get based on the
evidence that they heard.
Speaker 4 (20:19):
And recently I was I could do some people online
about and they said, you know, without a reasonable doubt
did the jury all were they able to prove that
this person all was guilty without a reasonable doubt? And
I would say no, I to let person bing go.
They did not prove that without a reasonable doubt. And
(20:42):
people forget that, especially the jury themselves.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I had one lady on my
jury that years later autil they'd done an investigation in
ninety five, when they had done an investigation, she said,
I didn't even want to vote he was guilty. She said,
I didn't even want to do that, she said, but
I I was bullied in this vote because they it
was they would wanted to go home.
Speaker 4 (21:03):
Mmhmm. You know, and you didn't want woman like not
pay much attention there in your trial, like, yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:11):
One of the women was sleeping during the trial and
then she's still voted for.
Speaker 4 (21:14):
Guilty there yeah mm hmm.
Speaker 3 (21:18):
And the judge, and the judge knew that she was
asleep and didn't say or do nothing about it. M
And then when added to the court, when you start
finding your appeals and everything, uh, them justices they don't
want to hear stuff like that. They'd rather go against
the law and keep.
Speaker 4 (21:30):
You on death row exactly, you know, ruling your favor
and all. This is a bailiff also talked to jurors
as well, because that's go ahead, Yeah they are.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
What they've done was the bailiff told the Jews, said,
you don't have to worry about finding him guilty him
getting the dead and said, they don't execute people in
Tennessee anymore.
Speaker 4 (21:57):
And do you want to say they're not supposed to
do that, they still do it.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
Yep, you'll do it.
Speaker 4 (22:06):
Yeah, yeah at all. Now one of the people that
testify against you think one of them the kids you know,
doesn't he recanted since then?
Speaker 3 (22:19):
Yeah, uh the youngest boy. He recanted and said that
that uh, that most of the stuff he said was
was wasn't true, that his mother and brother was the
one that told him to say that stuff, and that
I wasn't even around when most of that stuff they
was talking about happened. Mm hm.
Speaker 4 (22:38):
Has he been helpful since then?
Speaker 3 (22:41):
He's tried to be uh m, he's tried to be,
but that you know, the lawyers that I mean, they
really don't want to talk to him. They mean to
talk to him one time, you know what I'm saying.
It didn't really get a lot at him. I don't
think they was even trying to get a lot out
of him.
Speaker 4 (22:57):
No. So I know that you have the free Michael
band accounts, which we will link, But so I guess basically,
you know, like I we talked about this too while
I'm so glad that ron convictions like the word is
out more than ever. You know, it is a bit oversaturated,
(23:19):
so it's a bit harder stand it out. So, yes,
sharing does help. I'm going to keep saying that. I'm
going to keep singing that it helps, but I'll but
what can we do to help you? Basically?
Speaker 3 (23:35):
You know, I really don't have a flu except just
trying to raise money to get a lawyer. Other than that,
you know what I'm saying, that's aid bet that most
anybody can do. And you know that takes a lot
of money.
Speaker 4 (23:49):
It does takes a lot of money.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
Most people won't even touch a diffility case for less
than one hundred and fifty thousand dollars. That is no joke.
I mean, I mean you said you was trying to
help somebody else in the federal court system, in the
federal death road and everything, or wherever he's at. And
you know that if you try to get a law
unless you can't get somebody to take the case pro bono,
(24:11):
you're shot in the dark. Oh yes, yes, yes, yes, yeses. Yes.
I had a friend of mine that it was my
attorney when I first got in the federal court me
and her got that we didn't start out is to
be good friends, but we got to be good friends.
And it was probably she is probably the only lawyer
that I've ever trusted in my whole entire life. That
(24:34):
is no joke. But after she left here, she lived
here in twenty sixteen and moved to New York to
work for the NAACP. Yeah, the NAACP. And then she's
quit that job and went to teaching that what was
she teaching at? What was that law? She's been teaching
it at several colleges there in New York. One of
(24:56):
them was Brooklyn Law. One of them was what was
it Cambridge?
Speaker 4 (25:01):
It wasn't to look that up real quick, I'm gonna
be telling you about.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
That several It was several of them. And she got
all this power and influence with all these lawyers all
across the country, cost every She's really very intelligent. She's
a very intelligent woman. And uh uh I called her
up here. But let's see, it's been about a year
ago last month that I called her and I said, hey, Alexis,
I said, look here, I said, I know you care
(25:26):
about me and everything, I said, but look, you got
all this power. You know, all these these these lawyers
and everything. I said, all these big time lawyers that
didn't know the law and know how to help people
and everything. I said, why can't you get one of
them to help me? And uh, she said, I feel
like I've done all I can do. And I mean,
she wouldn't even try to lift a finger to help me, so, uh,
(25:47):
she she apologized for that. And when I sent her
a copy of the d I sent her a copy
of the DNA or I had somebody send her a
copy of the DNA stuff before it comes back that
it wasn't me and everything, and she apologized right away.
I mean, she said, you know, I'm sorry. I said,
you know what I said when you told me that
you didn't feel like it was a good idea, I said,
I kind of figured that you thought I was guilty.
(26:08):
And she just said, I'm sorry. That's all she said.
But since that time, since that conversation, she's never reached
out to talk to me again.
Speaker 4 (26:17):
And how long has it been.
Speaker 3 (26:19):
It's been a year ago last month and I've talked.
I haven't talked to her, but I know some of
her friends that they're still working on my case and
They asked me all the time, Hey, have you talked
to a Lectis lady? I said no. They said, well,
why have you reached out to her? I said that
reaching out and goes both ways. I said, she know
what how she treated me, She knows what she's done.
(26:39):
You know, it wasn't right. I feel like I feel
like this right here. I don't I let myself get
get too involved with her because we got to be friends,
like I said, but you can't be friends with a
lawyer when they're not trying to help you like they
you know they can't do it, you know what I'm saying.
You know that they can do better than they done,
and they know they can do better than they're done,
(26:59):
but they didn't do it. You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 4 (27:01):
Yeah, it is incredibly incredibly disappointing, disheartening. And you know,
like I have friends who are are which they got friends,
people I once respected in the nonprofit sector who I
know can do more and they have not. They choose
to do not to it, And like I say, it's disappointing.
(27:23):
And with all nonprofits, I just I'm more wary of
them a lot more.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
You know, I probably shouldn't say this, but I'm going
to You've got so many organizations out there that could
help if they wanted to.
Speaker 4 (27:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
But sometimes to me, sometimes to me, when I when
when when when when I reach out to these people
in these organizations, these nonprofits and in all these places,
and and they tell me, no, I'm wondering, are they
just playing games with the public to get all this
money from the government? Stuff? Like they her to say
they're doing this, and they're doing it, and they're really
not doing a thing if.
Speaker 4 (28:00):
What they're doing, That's what I wonder, because there's that's
from my end, what I see are a lot of
empty promises with a lot of these organizations, a lot
of empty promises.
Speaker 3 (28:10):
Most definitely, I get that. I get that a lot.
I think about that a lot. You know you're doing
you say you're doing this, and you say you're doing that,
and may and sometimes they I think they pick and
choose who they want to help.
Speaker 4 (28:22):
Yeah, Now sometime I thing you help people, but it's
more about pick and choosing.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I completely agree with it.
Speaker 4 (28:32):
Yeah, And.
Speaker 3 (28:34):
It doesn't seem to be getting any better.
Speaker 4 (28:37):
No, it's not.
Speaker 3 (28:38):
No, And.
Speaker 4 (28:39):
Like I said, when I first, well start advocate. I'm
like bright a bushytails all the all these nonprofits are
doing great. It's gray chart. No, no, it's like you said,
the facade, you know, to keep that federal funding going
and keep the donations going all that, and oh but
I do think more than but that doesn't mean that.
(29:01):
You know, first, I think first of all, smaller organizations,
the ones that are you know, have kind of our
shoe spring budget. Better way to go. Go fund these
and also go and watch to straighten the source such
as you like, loads are the best ways to go.
That's where you really know where your money's going.
Speaker 3 (29:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (29:25):
Yeah, so that's of course way right there to help. Also,
like I said, sharing petition also, I uh, I did
want to ask, Oh I want to put out there.
You know when it comes to somewhat law schools, I
know that this is something I'm looking into myself. Sometimes
(29:47):
they will study case. Help out, So that would help.
Submitting his case to a law school maybe see if
they will study it. You need to call me back,
Oh yes, please run it out. Yeah all right, So,
like I said, so then you get to a law school,
(30:09):
see if they school will study the case, because I
know they've done that with a lot of wrongful convictions
such as Dusty Turner, and also I will I'll leave
additional ideas down below, like I know some places where
you can submit all cases all, like some websites where
you can submit cases for like both articles on the
(30:32):
site who spread the worry about wrongful convictions they have
That helps a lot. I've submitted some cases, but yeah,
have I got anywhere now?
Speaker 3 (30:45):
With me?
Speaker 4 (30:46):
It helped a little bit with the petition and with
some donations, so it helps a little bit. Yeah, So
it didn't help dramatically, but it helped a little bit
with the signatures and some a little bit of money.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
So yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (31:02):
But I also really like the way they wrote it
because I, you know, worked These are some of my colleagues,
so I worked alongside them with you know, writing somethings,
making sure all the facts were straight. I can always
want to show you example if you'd like, because this
is something they do for a living. So I really
(31:24):
I was very happy with it. But like I said,
well cover that you know very soon.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
So but like.
Speaker 4 (31:33):
I petitions, the reason why I stress those is because
that is something I've seen them take into account when
the appeals process. But it also helps get the word out.
It helps people research the case, which we do encourage,
you know, don't just listen, you know, fall blindly. We
do want you to do your research because I mean,
(31:56):
got nothing to hide.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know. I would really like to
have a lawyer on this DNA testing. I think that
would solve all. A good lawyer on my DNA test.
I think that would be a good I think that
would be better for me than a lawyer on appeals.
I really do stops everything. If you get the case
overturned on the DNA testing alone, that stops everything. You know,
you don't have to going to any other peels.
Speaker 4 (32:19):
Yes, if you know a lawyer, absolutely submit this to them.
And so again thank you for coming on. We're gonna
keep people updated the DNA testing. Please keep us updated
and we'll have you back on and everyone, as always,
keep spraying that word. Show me afraid. It's the care
(32:40):
food stacks. Not every light is gone and carry baby
does that a very nice big keep.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
It close to your house, Oh love.
Speaker 4 (32:50):
The pressure's kind of jove you crazy because your right
to the bad.
Speaker 3 (32:56):
In the morning.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
It's all kind of then it's showing me.
Speaker 4 (33:00):
Iv is, be careful wisides, and that's a wrap for today.
Thank you so much for tuning in.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
If you haven't already, please click that follow button so
you can get updates for new episodes and if you'd
like to get more updates about the people we've not
only featured on this podcast, but also updates about other
cases as well as other ways to fight against this
injustice system, please follow me on social media Instagram, TikTok,
(33:29):
and blue Sky under the same user name.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
It's Sair only.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
I T S s A R A h O N
l Y. It's Sair only. I also have my own
five oh one c three nonprofit, Voiceless behind Bars. That's
Voiceless behind bars dot org. And while I run and
own that nonprofit, this podcast, while it has the same name,
because we stand for the same thing against romple convictions
(33:57):
and we stand against this and J system, this podcast
is one and owned by the wonderful Prison.
Speaker 4 (34:04):
Audio, so one be transparent about that one.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
So again, thank you for tuning in. Let's continue to
make change happen together.
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