Ep: 70 "Tara"

Hey Light Shiners! I am joined by Tara who is a transracial adoptee and she shares her experience with dealing with religious trauma from the Mormon church. She also speaks about how she still loves her white adoptive parents but struggles with her racial identity.

Watch the video of this episode only on Patreon! https://www.patreon.com/user?u=45714095&fan_landing=true 

If you would like to be on the show please fill sign up here https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeZwdv6RQrI49p0kqtzBblV5eQIGAE81dV3Ey3ZQRgmWOeS1A/viewform?usp=preview 

Please help us keep shining light on the truths of the foster care system by donating. Please click the link to donate! https://karlosdillard.com/checkout/donate?donatePageId=611ab8be7dbb68767abf984e

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:08):
Content warning. The Wards of the State podcast may contain
material that may be harmful or traumatizing to some audiences.
Listener discretion is advised. Haylight Shiners, Welcome back to another

(00:38):
episode of Wards of the State. I am just continuously
gracious that these stories and people continue to want to
share their lived experience with us, but I have to say, y'all,
we do need some more stories. Listen. The podcast can
only go if we have y'all sharing y'all stories. And
so far we're in almost to one hundred episodes, which
in podcast world, that's amazing the fact that we've been

(00:59):
a which to sustain for three years, a space of
lived experience, a space of education, and a space of
sharing you know, the hard truths, the laughs, the sad parts,
the angry parts, because y'all, I'll be get angry listen
to some of these stories. I just want to just,
you know, hit somebody. But I really want you, guys,

(01:21):
if you know anyone an adoptee, a former false youth,
someone who is in kinship, shared the podcast with them
and let them know if they want to share their
experience to hop on On. We love to just get
all different types and it's not just the bad. I
know a lot of people think. I know a lot
of people think it's just all bad, but it's not.
There are some good episodes where people who had good experiences,
but that just is a reflection of the adoption community.

(01:42):
Right in the child welfare system. There's more bad than good,
and we see that with our stories. So all stories
are accepted, good, bad, and indifferent. We just want to
continue to be able to share so people can learn. Right.
Speaking of learning, we have a new guest today who
is an adoptee and they Yeo from the state of Utah. Oh,
my worst favorite. Y'all know, I hate you. I hate Augden, Utah.

(02:07):
That is that Utah is Ogden in Utah, I believe,
so y'all know on podcasts why I hate Ogden specifically,
I had to go to court there one time because
some lady on TikTok tried to steal a baby name
Hope I can talk about it because I won the case.
She tried to steal a baby, so of course you
know I did, my little dude, and you know I'll
be exposing people online. I exposed her being a fraud
and then she tried to take me to court because

(02:29):
she wanted to what if she was seeking I think
she was seeking restraining order And I was like, girl,
you can't restrain me from talking about you online. She tried.
We had to go to Augden, Utah. If you've never
been to Augten, Utah, don't go. There's nothing there. There's
one Starbucks. There's a bunch of hillbillies, and like just
a little town square. Also, they if you order, don't

(02:50):
order anything alcoholic unless you're ordering a shot. And they're
only going to give you a quarter of the shot
because they have an alcohol. It's just like the worst stick.
It's the worst stick right now in my line. Well,
let's introduce our nice guest, Tara. Tara, how are you?
I'm good?

Speaker 2 (03:07):
Everything you said true valid.

Speaker 1 (03:10):
The last time I went to Utah was in opting
and this black lady walked past me and she stopped
and she looked at me and she was like, can
I help you? And I was like yeah. She's like,
I just we don't see a lot of us here,
and I was like, dang, is that bad.

Speaker 2 (03:23):
That's how I am too. I'm like hey, waving to
everyone that I see. I'm like, oh my gosh, you
live here.

Speaker 1 (03:30):
You live here? Oh all right, Tarah, Well let's just
start from the beginning. Introduced the light Shiners to yourself
and kind of how you ended up in Utah.

Speaker 2 (03:38):
Yeah. So I'm Tara Herbert. I was adopted as an infant,
like a couple of weeks old through LDS Family Services,
which is the Mormon Church's adoption agency that they started.

Speaker 1 (03:52):
They got shut down, y'all.

Speaker 2 (03:54):
Yes, yeah, they're no longer an agency anymore. But I
feel like the damage that they have done is already
done and really really invasive and is spreading across I
feel like the United States with some of the laws
that they got past. But I was adopted through that

(04:17):
in Louisiana, I grew up. So I was in Louisiana
for like two weeks after birth and then was adopted
by a white Mormon family and that's how I ended up.

Speaker 1 (04:28):
This was this like a pre birth match adoption. Did
your adopt the parents ever meet your birth mother or
kind of know anything about your birth side of your family?

Speaker 2 (04:38):
Yeah, so it was definitely a pre birth match adoption,
which I don't even know with LDS Family Services, Like,
I feel like that's like what they specialized, and like
I didn't realize until like an adult that like, yes, yeah,
I just thought that's how it always was, right, Yeah,

(05:02):
So it was before I was even born that they
were matched. They met one time and that was when
they went to pick me up and then they didn't
know each other's names because it was a closed adoption completely.

Speaker 1 (05:18):
So yeah, and for the listeners, I mean, this is
an adoption in Foscar podcast. So I would hope that
you would know what a pre birth match adoption is,
but adoptees don't even know what that is all the time, right,
you know? A pre birth uh, pre pre birth match
adoption is when usually an agency they have like scouts
or baby brokers, that's what they call them, and they

(05:40):
go around the country looking for usually impoverished children or
younger adults who have a struggle. They use the church specifically,
not even just the Mormon church. They interact with all churches, yeah,
to try to kind of like you know, broker these babies.
They usually have some type of like they call like
a look book, so they have different families that are

(06:02):
available for adoption, and they hand out these books to
women who may be interested in adoption. Or may be
young or maybe being usually coherced into adoption by either
a family member or the church themselves. Right, and then
they pick a family and they look at photos. I'm like, oh, right,
I want to choose that one. Sometimes there's like a

(06:23):
phone call, but back in the day, like in the
nineties and eighties, there usually wasn't anything more than a
phone call, maybe a letter, or they met them the
same day, like in your Circumstance, Tara, where they met
the mom the same day that they met the child.
And that's what a pre birth match adoption is. The
adoption has already pretty much happened. It has to still
be sealed and legalized after the child is born, but

(06:44):
the parents get rights, usually immediately right when the baby
is born, the adoptive parents.

Speaker 2 (06:49):
Yeah, and that's something that the LDS Church, at least
in Utah, really got changed because before you'd have to
go to a judge and it could take up to
six months or longer. But they got it changed so
that like the day they sign, you don't even need
the judge that it's official and law.

Speaker 1 (07:09):
And a lot of people also doesn't don't know that
there's a retraction period. Even in prefirth adoptions right. Some
states is three days, some states is three weeks, some
states is three months. It depends on the state. But
I believe that pre birth matching is so invasive because
as a mother, if the child gets removed from you
immediately and you still have three days, three weeks, or

(07:30):
three months to change your mind, how likely are you
going to change your mind if you haven't even got
your moments with your child right, like you weren't able
to build that bond. And a lot of times they
don't tell you about that right right, or they will
cohorse you and say, well, if you decide to take
your child, they'll end up in foster care, or will
they'll be an open investigation. Or I've even seen adoptive
parents threaten to sue the mothers and say, hey, if

(07:53):
you change your mind, will sue you. Yeah, you'll have
your baby, but we're going to sue you for all
the things that we gave you and provide it for
you during your pregnancy. So it's it's just very manipulative
in my opinion.

Speaker 2 (08:03):
It is, and it still goes on, Like even though
the Mormon Church no longer has their agency, there's so
many agencies now that are basically the same thing where
they're flying women out to Utah because the laws are
so lax and one hundred percent for adopted parents here

(08:23):
in Utah, they want to fly the mothers out here
so that it's legal quicker.

Speaker 1 (08:29):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (08:29):
There's stories of moms like saying I actually don't want
to do this and them saying we're not going to
pay for your ticket back, so they're stranded in Utah
with their newborn babies like just wild, and then also
not telling the biological fathers.

Speaker 1 (08:45):
Like at all. Some of these mothers are flown in
from other countries, y'ah. They fly them in for so
like can you imagine them being like, I'm not going
to pay for you to go back home, and now
you're an illegal immigrant with a newborn. But come on,
now they know what they're doing. So Tara Tara tarah,
Ye see I did it. I did it. Yeah, I
talked about it, Sarah. Were your parents white? I'm assuming

(09:07):
you're yes, okay, because I was like most Mormons are,
aren't we there's a few black ones. Yeah. I don't
know how that, but because if you know anything about
the more so since I've done this podcast, I've learned
so much about Mormonism, like way more than I ever
and I was spoken is usually like the one that
taught me so much. White and the light Zome, Like
you have to get bonded or branded or something like

(09:30):
a blood packed or some crazy shit when they they
bond you to your adopted family and they're like seal seal,
Seal seal. You get sealed to your adopted family. And
then another little fun thing that I learned that is
in Mormonism, like black people can't go into heaven. You
have to like get sealed, and then when you come back,
you come back white.

Speaker 2 (09:50):
Yeah, And it's like debated on whether like I one
hundred percent as a child like believed that like I
would be like resurrected or like you know after this
life like that I would possibly be white. So it's
definitely like that's like an definitely implied teaching that you

(10:11):
kind of learn. And now I feel like in twenty
twenty four they would try and distance themselves.

Speaker 1 (10:16):
Oh they always do. They just like the Catholics trying
to distance themselves from their issues. So, like, tell about
your growing up, how was your life being adopted?

Speaker 2 (10:26):
Yeah, so my parents had three biological children and they
adopted four children. Yeah, so seven all together in South Jordan, Utah.
And I think like for me growing up, I did
have other black siblings. We weren't like biological siblings, but

(10:50):
I did have other black siblings, so like it was
a place of like safety in my home to get
away from just everyday school life of realizing like, wow,
like I'm so different like than everybody here, and my
hair is so different than everybody here. And I just remember,
I think in elementary school, the first realization of that

(11:12):
was like somebody was talking about my gums because like
I have.

Speaker 1 (11:16):
Brown yeah gums to some of us got brown gum.

Speaker 2 (11:20):
Yeah, And he was saying just how like oh, like
are you dirty? Do you brush your teeth? Like why
your gum's brown? And I'm like I don't know, I
don't know why my gums.

Speaker 1 (11:28):
Are brown, Like, oh my god.

Speaker 2 (11:31):
Yeah. And so that was kind of my first realization
that like like legitimately I felt like growing up like
I wanted to bleach my.

Speaker 1 (11:39):
Gum gum yeah, that you can't do that, you can,
I know.

Speaker 2 (11:44):
And now I'm just like so silly, like why would I.

Speaker 1 (11:47):
Want to you have a beautiful spout. Listen, people used
to pick on me for my black gums and my
big teeth, but now as an adult, I grew into
my smile. But also it just gives it like a
nice little background like it.

Speaker 2 (11:58):
Does, and it makes it to me. Wi, Yes, it
makes our teeth look so white, so we're not gonna
have to pay to get all those bleaching done. But yeah,
I think like for me, I really gravitated towards Mormonism
because of that identity issues that come with adoption. And

(12:19):
in Mormonism, you know, they teach that like we all
were pre like before this life, you chose your family
and you chose your struggles that you would have. So
that's like what was taught to me all growing up
is like I chose to like be adopted, and I chose,
you know, this family so that I could be raised

(12:41):
in Mormonism and be saved after this life. Yeah. So
even then, like I feel like my parents, like I
don't know if they had any like black friends or
anything before adopting, like black chillildren.

Speaker 1 (13:01):
I know, there's just not.

Speaker 2 (13:02):
Yeah, and you will see in Utah there's a lot
of Mormon families that adopt like.

Speaker 1 (13:08):
Black children specifically.

Speaker 2 (13:09):
Yeah, and it's because of this idea that black children
need it more, which is false, right, most statistically most
children that are adopted are white children.

Speaker 1 (13:20):
White children in care than there are black children exactly.

Speaker 2 (13:24):
So it's just this idea of like poor black children,
like this white saviorism idea, And part of that is
eventually for me, I find out really sad because I
always pictured like my biological parents is like being so young,
like too young to take care of a child, or

(13:45):
maybe they were like drug addicts or maybe they were
you know, doing bad stuff because like in Mormonism, like
if you're not Mormon, then everything else is like bad.
You know, that's a cult.

Speaker 1 (14:03):
It's our way and if you don't go our way,
you're going to hal We're no.

Speaker 2 (14:07):
But yeah, and so that's just like what I thought
was like, oh, like this is where I'm supposed to be,
like I'm supposed to like be Mormon, Like this is
what God wanted for me. And in part, like the

(14:29):
Mormon theology, like that story of like this is what
you chose, like for an adoptee at a young age,
that can help because you are feeling a sense of loss,
like I've always felt that sense of loss and like loneliness,
if that makes sense, Like I've always felt that like

(14:50):
I'm just alone, like I don't like my It's like
a forever schema probably that like I'm alone.

Speaker 1 (14:58):
Like you know, I always go back and forth with
at birth adoptees, like not to compare, but there's always
like you know, a silver lining and everything. And I
was adopted at nine years old, so I definitely knew
my mom. I knew my dad. I knew my aunts
and uncles and my siblings. And I always questioned, like
would it have been better just like not to know anyone?
And when I hear y'all stories, I was like no,

(15:18):
because like that isolation, that loneliness. Even though I was
physically lonely, I knew that I had family out there.
I knew who they were, I knew their names, like
I knew that one day I could potentially find them again,
and I did. But I don't think I would trade
that before, not just that long. That justds so isolating,
right and like so hopeless, especially growing up in an

(15:40):
all white neighbor I grew up in all white neighborhood,
but at least I knew the black people exist. Yeah,
there was a different type of life.

Speaker 2 (15:50):
No, it really does, Like I think, like for me,
it was like any black person I saw was like
could that be my mom? Or could that be my dad?
You know? And I think it created even like it
made me really believe in Mormonism even more because it's
like I felt like I needed to just rely on God,
you know. And I think like it was now that

(16:12):
I'm an adult and looking back, like until I met
my biological family, Like I'm telling you, Carlos, I would
look in the mirror and like every time I'd look
in the mirror, I'd be like surprised that that was
like me. Like it's like I couldn't recognize until having
met my biological family to see like where those features
came from, to like solidify my like self identity. Like

(16:37):
I don't know how to explain it. It was like almost
dissociative when you're like, oh, that's me, Like I don't
know realize that like I look like that, Like am
I pretty? Am I ugly? I have no idea like.

Speaker 1 (16:49):
And then you know from social standards, you know, especially
growing up in predominantly white neighborhoods and institutions. Pretty is
only black hair, blue ied maybe brown hair? Right?

Speaker 2 (17:00):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (17:00):
Is never you? Right? So and then you don't get shown.
Did your parents do anything to help, like with the
racial isolation and identity issues growing up? Like did they
get you involved any like adoption programs or like, I
don't know, there's not much as far as like black
programs in Utah, But did they what type of effort
did they give?

Speaker 2 (17:17):
So I did know a lot like and still to
this day, like I know a lot of black adoptees,
right because they we did hang out a lot a
lot with a lot of other adoptees. But I think
like what would have helped would be knowing like black adoptees,

(17:38):
Like I do feel like that can ship between us,
but all of us are like at a loss of
identity of like what it means to be black, you know.
So I did have friends that, like I remember like
my first friend that like wasn't adopted and she was
half black, and I was like, oh, so your adopted.
She's like no, like my dad's black, like and like

(17:59):
meeting her dad and stuff. Because he was also from Louisiana.
He grew up in Louisiana, and like I just was
over at their house like all the time. And I
think it's just because I felt that, like gosh, she's
gonna make me emotional, but like just that safety and

(18:20):
like that because you know, like all growing up, I
was called like an oreo and you know, like, yeah,
so you're like white, white on the inside, black on
the outside. No, but it's like what makes us all
black is like our ancestry. Yeah. Yeah, So I just

(18:42):
loved going to her family's house because of just that
understanding of like race, Like that was when I first
really learned about like racism, and like they were also Mormon,
so like which is so surprising, but like we could
actually talk about people being racist to us at school,

(19:04):
you know, and the things that people would say about us.
But at least we had like each other to like
talk about that and understand.

Speaker 1 (19:16):
Because absolutely I don't know if even to.

Speaker 2 (19:19):
This day that my adopted parents like understand, like they
don't believe racism still exists.

Speaker 1 (19:27):
You don't see color, they don't see color. Yeah, it's
just good and bad in the world. And that's I feel,
you such on a deep level. And one I just
know that like the pain of being racially isolated that
stays inside of you. And even on top of that,
even when you make it out quote unquote and you

(19:49):
start to discover your identity of being a black individual,
you then deal with you're whitewashed. Yeah, you talk white,
you dress white. Yeah. So it's like, damn, my whole
life urging trying to find this part of myself and
this part of my identity, and then I finally do

(20:11):
find it, and it's like our own community sometimes will
slap us in the face, right, And I think that
that's like a double sided sword that no one will
understand unless you're a transracial adoptee. Bi racial people kind
of get it a little bit, but the main difference
is they always, like you explain, they have at least
one black parent that can stand by, that can answer questions,

(20:34):
that can be that safety net that can talk to
them about racism when you grow up in a white household.
I remember going home and telling my mom like they
called me the N word, and she was like, well,
what did you do? And then that would get me upset.
I was like, I literally did nothing, and then now
I'm just like everything was my fault. And it was my fault,
and I would try to change everything. I would try

(20:57):
to wear the same clothes as them. I would try
to MANI my hair like theirs, which never works. I
just was bald and then like it never works. So
I understand just like that inner pain. And I think
a lot of transracial adoptees, even as we enter adulthood,
we carry that with us, right And I, even as

(21:17):
a thirty three year old man going on, I made
sure my man was black. That was one thing. When
I was dating. I was like, because I dated some
white dudes, but I was just like, no, no, no, no,
I need my spouse because the person I'm going to
spend my life with me to understand what I'm going through.
Because I've already lived a life of having people that
I'm close to not understand what I'm going through. I
can't be married to someone who can't not saying that

(21:39):
white people are bad. I just can't. I knew I
was never going to marry one, and I just think
that now relearning like his meeting his black family and
reunifying with my black family and friends and seeing that
like black being black is beautiful, bling black is does
it has all different shapes, color, sizes, financial abilities, and ranges.

(22:01):
It's it's very powerful. But when you miss that growing up,
no matter how much you fill it up, it just
it's just it feels like it's gone. Yeah, you feel
like that sometimes, Like it just feels like no matter
how black I am, I'm just never going to be
black enough. Yeah, I missed that in my in the
key points.

Speaker 2 (22:20):
I think, like what also hurts the most is like
my own biological family has become strangers to me, right
because we're so like I the realization that like I
have been raised like a white person, like the way
I think is like a white person, you know, And
then I.

Speaker 1 (22:42):
Call it being touched by white hands.

Speaker 2 (22:44):
Yeah. And so then like literally sometimes like my brother
will be talking and I'm like I literally don't even
understand a word you just said, Like like I'm so
far We're so different, like we were raised so just
completely different that it's like now created that divide of
trying to like reconnect.

Speaker 1 (23:05):
And that's really hard even for Foster e'fe like myself.
I left. The last time I saw my siblings, I
was like nine or ten. The next time I saw them,
I was nineteen or twenty and I had gotten adopted,
I had gone through you know, the white life quote unquote.
And I think for me it's a little bit different
because I'm the youngest of four children, so I remember

(23:26):
always having older siblings. Yeah, my siblings, even though we
spent ten to fifteen years apart, I grew up with
them for eight years. So but that even made it
worse because when I came back, they would be they
told me that you're not the same person that left,
oh Man, and they were like, Wor's car and I
remember even my sister being like Wor's like where's Carlos Like,
and I'm like, I am Carlos, and They're like, no,

(23:48):
you're not. And to me, like that was just so
harmful and it created kind of like a a disconnect
and for a long time, my siblings and I, you know,
we just kind of like played the role of siblings.
We didn't. It was just kind of like playing the
role because you're my siblings. So I got to call
you Mary, Christmin things like that. It wasn't until my

(24:09):
mom and my sister died in a car accident where
my brothers and I got super close, and I think
that that is because like it brought us back to
being very young children and our mother always telling us,
no matter what happens, you will always see you always
only have each other. And my mom always say, when
I'm gone, you only have your siblings. And I had

(24:29):
forgotten about that because I laughed at it when I
was in Fostercare because I was like, well, you're gone,
and I don't have my siblings, I don't have anybody.
I'm in the system by myself. So when she died
the second time, and I say that, and people say, well,
she died the second time because when she got her
rights removed and I was told I would never see
her again, I grieved her death like I grieved her death.
I grieved my siblings death. So when I found them again,

(24:50):
it was kind of like they were like angels and
I had gotten a new chance. But when she died
the second time, I knew she wasn't coming back, and
I knew that all I had left was my siblings.
So we worked really hard to kind of build that relationship,
and it's gotten better over the last eight years since
she's died, but it's still not my brother. My husband

(25:10):
just found his siblings like last year like his dad
had him. He went thirty three years not knowing his father.
The way that they're connected, like they call each other
every day, the text, they like plant family. They just
met each other like a year and a half ago,
and they're so close, And I'm like, how am I
not like I know my own siblings? How am I

(25:31):
not as close as you? And I just think it's
I think it's different for every every child in your situation,
but I feel like adoptees when you have that, he
didn't get raised with another family. He just didn't know
that side. So like he got to start off like fresh,
But for adoptees, we don't get to start off fresh.
There's always trauma connected to that. We have to remember
that as well. Like our siblings is a is a

(25:53):
live and action figure of our trauma in human form.
Like yes, I couldn't grow up with you. I didn't
know you, I didn't get to know you. I know
were related by blood, but you are a physical embodiment
of my trauma. And I think that that people need
to be real with themselves and say that sometimes.

Speaker 2 (26:08):
And that's why that is so No, that is great
insight because my older brother, my parents kept and then
they weren't together anymore, and so she got my biological
mother got remarried and had like I think my brother
and I are like eight or nine years apart, but

(26:31):
it is true, Like when I first met them, it
was very hard to see that, Like they had a
house that like my brothers like both had their own rooms,
Like they had cars, Like my younger brother was in
private school, you know, and now has like a full
ride scholarship to LSU. And whereas like I, you know,

(26:51):
when we talk about like adoption, a lot of people
are like, look, you were like given a better life,
but like I'm the only one out of my family
who hasn't been to college because I was raised Mormon,
and Mormon women were raised to be moms and wives,
and so sometimes I'm like is it better? And then also,
like we were talking about socioeconomical like where you are

(27:15):
and that I had so many siblings, Like I always
thought we were poor, you know, because we had a
one income household and had seven of us off of
that one income, and so you are raised kind of
like you're poor, you know, Whereas like my biological family,
like they're like they'll talk about like yeah, we were

(27:37):
Like my mom will talk about how she was like
so poor and dust you and I'm like, I've been poor,
like I could, I could be poor.

Speaker 1 (27:45):
He's like, I've been poor. That is so funny. That
is so funny. No, it's it's it's really something to recognize. Especially, So,
how's your relationship with your biological parents. I know you
spoke a little bit about your biological siblings here, but
what about your biological parents. How's your relationship with them?

Speaker 2 (28:05):
Yeah, so my biological father passed away before I found them,
so I never got to meet him, but my biological mother,
like I don't know even that is like trying. I think,
like what you said of like like my how you
felt like your mom like died like that, Like it's

(28:28):
like really resonates with me because I think something in
me had to like grieve and kill that off.

Speaker 1 (28:35):
Yeah. You literally, as a your brain can only take
so much. And this is why we say and now
spoken says it's a lot too. There is no blank
slate babies, right, Yeah, your body remembers your mom. You
may not remember your mom, but your body does. And
for your brain, who's now missed you know, the colosstrum,
the feeding, the skin, the skin security, the smuth everything

(28:58):
you were acknowledging. You had to internal contract with your
mom saying, hey, when I pop out of your mom,
you're gonna be the right. And humans are the only
mammals that keep their babies like our babies are babies
for a long fucking time. Have here to like a
diraft bitch, you got it? They popped them. Have you
seen a giraft good birth? The Bishes are running in
five minutes, they pop them, bushess out, they say, get going,

(29:19):
I just run.

Speaker 2 (29:23):
You got five?

Speaker 1 (29:24):
Do you know you have thirty minutes? Thirty thirty?

Speaker 2 (29:29):
You know?

Speaker 1 (29:29):
But humans, our children stay infantile for like seven years
until they can really start kind of doing things on
their own right. So we are expecting our mom to
be there, and when they're not, you have to kill
that expectation and part of your brain like it's a
chemistry that does not connect. And I think as we
learn more about maternal separation trauma and adoption trauma and

(29:51):
just our technology advances, we're going to start to see
I'm telling you adopted brains. If I'm not a doctor,
I just want to if your doctor's listening to this,
Please do this research.

Speaker 2 (30:01):
Quote Carlos all the time.

Speaker 1 (30:03):
Right, do the research. I bet you that if you
look at adoptee brains and compare them to non adopted brains,
that adopted brains like, there's something that's like similar, there's
something that's like missing or highlighted or it's it's trauma,
it's maternal separation. I agree, because we all have that
same feeling, no matter if you're adopted at birth, no
matter if you're adopted as a foster youth international. How

(30:25):
can we all have different totally different experiences, but we
can all acknowledge the same feeling.

Speaker 2 (30:32):
Yeah, And I think it like disregulates your nervous system, right,
Like for me, I've like I tantrum or like like
you know, people call it tantrum, but like I could
not regulate my nervous system until very much older age,
Like I was just so triggered by like little things,
like I'd get angry so quick, you know, and have

(30:54):
like big emotions. And now I feel like it's like
I do think it altered your nervous system and alters
your brain chemistry, and then you pass that down to
your kids and like especially when I had my first child,
was like the whole time while I was pregnant, I
felt like no connection, you know, Like I was like

(31:16):
everyone talks about especially Mormonism. You know, babies are so
like the biggest thing ever, right, and like how you
can feel them like before they're here on earth, Like
you know that, like they're supposed to come to earth
and like you're supposed to get pregnant and YadA, YadA,
you know, just all this wo wo stuff around babies.

(31:37):
And I'm like, I don't feel any of that, Like
I don't feel connected to my baby at all. Like
I'm pregnant and I don't feel connected. I gave birth
and I was like, I this is like such a
weird feeling because that was the first time I met
a biological like family member. Yeah, and it was yeah,

(31:57):
And I felt like it took a long time.

Speaker 1 (32:00):
The first person that you meet in your family that
that's it. That's the testimony right there, Yeah, testimony right there.

Speaker 2 (32:08):
It messed with my head. Like that's when my adoption
trauma really came to the forefront. Is like after I
had a baby, and like you know, people say it
was postpartum, but I think it was just like my
brain like for so long had been shut off of
like thinking like, oh, you should be grateful, like your
life was so much better than.

Speaker 1 (32:30):
I mean one way that you can also look at
like I'm not a doctor or anything. I just listen you.
Your brain finally understood maternal separation and maternal connection.

Speaker 2 (32:39):
You're right.

Speaker 1 (32:40):
Yeah, And it was like that gap that has been
missing that it's been like why do I I look
myself in the mirror and I don't even see myself.
Bids you see yourself and this baby is right here.
You couldn't you, you couldn't help but to see you
in that baby. So then all of these years of
that part missing, it was like, oh, that was connection.

(33:00):
But then because of that your maternal separation trauma, it
was like you didn't know that maternal connection was a thing. Yeah.
A lot of adoptees deal with that when they become parents. Right.
Oh yeah, and it's clocked it right, that's what it is. Yeah,
you can't feel something you never felt, baby girl.

Speaker 2 (33:18):
Yeah, because then that's what like I always said that,
like no, like I'm happy with my family, like I'm
happy that I was adopted, Like I don't know if
I'll ever want to find my biological family. And that's
like what kicked it into gear is like.

Speaker 1 (33:32):
How can you? How can and I tell this to
a lot of adoptee mothers, how can you give your
child maternal connection? That's something that you never had eight
And that's what I was like, you can't do it,
but it's kinda will take you a lot longer, a
lot harder.

Speaker 2 (33:44):
And I kept telling like when I would talk to
people about like having kids, I'd be like, I feel
like I'm just like the babysitter, Like I don't feel
like like that connection, that deep connection feels like it's missing.
And then I'm like, have I ever had that? Have
I ever had that with anyone in my life? Have
I felt deep intimate connection?

Speaker 1 (34:04):
Right?

Speaker 2 (34:04):
And like intimacy in Mormonism is scarce in every single region, right,
Like we're not allowed you're not allowed to masturbate at all,
you're not allowed to have sex at all. And those
are like just sexual intimacy. So then when you talk
about emotional intimacy, that is just lacking on so many

(34:25):
levels as well. And it's like.

Speaker 1 (34:28):
Cross everything every problem. Take it to the cross. Take it. Yeah,
Cothlics do that too. You be like, girl, I got
syphlist take it to the cross. Girl, that's not gonna
help syphilis. Yes, like the cross made sometimes we need
human interventions.

Speaker 2 (34:43):
Yes, And I think like some of it just gets
because you're lying on God so much, or because you're
lying on in Mormonism, the institution that is the church, right,
and this like policies and that, like it stops this
deep connection. And so I started experiencing religious psychosis.

Speaker 1 (35:04):
So oh, explain I'm not familiar. Explain that to me.

Speaker 2 (35:08):
Yeah. So it's like you're hearing I think you take it.
It's psychosis is when you hear voices or you see people,
and when you it's religious, it means that like I
just thought, like these voices are from.

Speaker 1 (35:23):
God or God. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (35:25):
Yeah, it takes on the form of like, well, if
you're belief.

Speaker 1 (35:28):
Most people who are religious have religious cycles. Because my
birth my adoptive mother dead, like God spoke to me.
And if God is speaking to you, yeah you he
that's not possible. Yeah, you can pray about something and
maybe get inklean up word, but if she literally says
God spoke to me, I stopped my car and I
had to listen to him. If you're listening to a

(35:49):
voice in your head speaking to you, babes, that's psychosis. Yes,
it's psychosis.

Speaker 2 (35:53):
And it is like people don't realize that, like there's
a level and I don't know what the line is
between like inanity and religion. For me, it was like
all of this is insane and I have to stop
religion like all together, because there's no like there really
is no boundaries, no lines you know of this and that.
And it was like being so involved in Mormonism, I

(36:17):
didn't realize until going to a counselor and him suggesting,
like you, like maybe you take a break from like
these beliefs, like maybe you just like relax and figure
out like what's important to you. That I was like, Oh,
my God, is my religion like yeah, causing this pain?

Speaker 1 (36:33):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (36:34):
And it definitely was. And the way that I was
raised like had caused a lot of pain because we
never talked about the pain that you feel of not
being with your biological family. Right. It was always like
this is a blessing, this is this is great, this
is God's plan for you. And then you talk about

(37:03):
the ceilings, which we talked about earlier, and that's when
you go to a Mormon temple, because if you're not
born into like to two Mormon parents and you're adopted,
you have to go to the temple to have this
ceremony to say that like you're sealed and you'll be
with each other in the next life. And even that
became triggering to me because I was like, when I

(37:25):
found out my biological father was dead, I was like, wait,
I don't want to be sealed to my Mormon family
like my dad, Like I'll never meet him. Then if
I'm sealed, you know, like I want to be with
your family, yes, And so because he's also like not Mormon,
and because I'm sealed to them, I'm like, well, what

(37:47):
if I want to be you can only be sealed
to one family, like you can't be sealed to multiple.

Speaker 1 (37:54):
So yeah, this sounds like a cult. Like every time
I hear and it's not my first time hearing it, Yeah,
every time am I here, And I'm just like, damn,
like that if you believe that, like truly, that that
is that's abused, that's that religious that's religious abuse. That's it.

Speaker 2 (38:12):
Definitely was like these.

Speaker 1 (38:13):
People like you feel like you have no other choice
and you're not going to see these other family members
because of this ceremony. And I think that's why I
say a lot of a lot of religious not just
the Mormons, like it's cult to y'all. It's called the Catholics,
the Presbyterians, is it's culty, the Seventh day Adventist, y'all
are caull t Like y'all real cult. And when you
finally and it's so crazy that you said you had

(38:36):
to make a decision to get all the way out
and you couldn't stay half in. I grew up Catholic,
and I kind of like you Catholicism. Coming up Catholic one,
there were different goals, which I think like successful religions do.
Like you get baptized and you have your first communion,
then you have your confirmation, then you get your marriage,

(38:58):
and then you have like your first These are different
rights that you have, so it's kind of like a
progression of your beliefs, right. And I remember my adoptive
parents kind of explaining Catholicism to me and I never
like I didn't understand it. I was like, so we're
gonna eat and drink Jesus Christ, Like that's weird, but
I really wanted at that moment in my life. I
really wanted to make them happy. And I really wanted
to be Catholic because they're Catholic and kind of like

(39:20):
that bonding, like it sealed me if I had the
same relief beliefs and religious belief system, like that sealed.
So I went through the baptism and the Confirmation and
the first Communion and I did all of the stages, right, Yeah,
And then when I became an adult, and I wanted
to hold onto some of those beliefs because I do
think that you know, the Ten Commandments, ain't nothing wrong

(39:42):
with that. You know, do be nice to other people, right,
but don't kill people. Right. But you just said something
that really touched me when you said I had to
like go of all religions so I could find myself.
And I had to do that as well, and I
became an atheist, like a staunch age like I don't
believe in nothing like. And then I started going further

(40:02):
into like atheism and being agnostic and looking at the
history of like there were different Jesus and all of
these different times and like the Son of soul, the soul,
the soul God like they had all were born of
the Virgin Mary's. I was like, oh, these are sounding
like the stories that I listened to. And after my
mom died, I was like twenty six to twenty seven,

(40:23):
I went through a root like I was depressed. I
had to even go on anti anxiety meds because I
was just like I was done. I was it was
so much happening in my life, and part of me
wanted to turn to religion because that's what my foundation was, like, Oh,
just if you're feeling harm, if you're feeling upset, go
to God. But I didn't have. I have so much
distrust in that because of all of the beliefs that

(40:45):
I was wrapped up to have and then figure out
all of this is bullshit, right. So one thing that
I've done over the last three to four years is
I'm not religious and not I don't go to church
and I haven't reintroduced myself to any religion, but I
have reintroduced myself to spirituality, where it's just like I
know that there's good in the world. I know that
there's good people, just like I know there's evil fucking people.

(41:08):
And if I believe, and I definitely believe in demons
and the devil, so I definitely believe that there's something
out there. I just don't know what it is. It's
not my place to say it. And I think that
the problem with religious trauma is that like it forces you,
like you said, to either believe in it fully or
you don't. And I really want to encourage people to
find your own if you're listening or even for you
it may not be in the next five, ten or

(41:28):
fifteen years, to find your own spirituality of just human existence,
like I find spirituality in humans. I think humans are
God like literally if you look at it, if you
really look at the Bible, and I use some of
my religious back they said God made us in his image,
so we are God's if you paid, if I may,
if I make a copy of myself in my image,

(41:48):
that's me, right.

Speaker 2 (41:50):
Yeah, exactly. And I just think that like our you,
because I'm exactly the same way Carlos, like I've gone
to like spirituality and like what feels good to me.
Because also I have children, right, I have two boys,
and I also want them, like I don't want to
take away religion for them, Like if they find peace
and comfort in that, then find peace and comfort in it.

(42:11):
Like they love Jesus right now, especially Christmas time. They
love baby Jesus, like obsessed with him. And I'm like
that's great, Like I'm glad you really love that and
that touches you. You're right, Like it doesn't matter to me. Yeah,
what they choose to believe in. I want them to
be open to whatever. But like I agree, for me,
it's taken on more of spirituality because especially as women

(42:36):
in most American religions, it's so patriarchal, it's so over
over the top, like wanting submission from women, and so
that's another aspect that it's like it's hard for me
to want to hop on board with that and have
to view myself as less than right because that's what

(42:58):
I had to do in Mormonism, right unless than because
I'm black and un less then because I'm a woman,
I'm not able to do these things because just simply
because of my gender.

Speaker 1 (43:09):
You know, absolutely, especially in Utah. Well, Tara, we're going
to take a quick break when we come back. I
want you to finish talking about how it was growing
up in Utah and a transfatial adoption, where you are now,
and how your adoption has affected you. So we'll be
right back, guys, and welcome back light Shiners. Make sure
you guys are leaving us a one, two, three, four,

(43:30):
five star rating and review on Apple Podcasts. Also, make
sure you're subscribing to us on Spotify and send us
a link to your family and friends. You know your
grandma will still listens to iHeartRadio, Send her this link,
Send her the link. Every episode is going to be
completely different, y'all, So if and let them know that
if they listen to an episode. I know that there
were some reviews, y'all. There are some reviews that were
not so nice. I'm listening, y'all. Somebody said in the

(43:53):
run review, they said I interrupt too much, so I've
been trying not to interrupt people. And then someone said
that sometimes I sound too happy when people are having
sad stories, and I just I don't know how to
respond to that because I'm just like a happy person usually.
And then also like smiling and and enjoy is like
my trauma response, so like it's like I'm just gonna

(44:15):
smile and you're gonna be Like I was waiting for
my brother, I was like, what, girl, That's just how
I survive. And then someone else also said that they
didn't like the type of stories. So if you've if
you heard an episode and you didn't like that lift experience,
guess what, there's about one hundred different other ones. They're

(44:35):
going to be completely different. I'm sure that you will
find an episode that will fit for you. But just
keep listening and keep supporting the podcast. Make sure that
you are also sharing it with people who want to
be on the show. Like I said earlier in the show,
we do need more people to share their lift experience.
So if you're listening and you want to share your
lift experience, please reach out. The link is in my

(44:55):
all of my social media bios. Also at the show
notes of every episode, there's a link to take you right. Well, actually,
I have to fix that because there's a new link now.
I'm thinking about it now. I just did it online.
The link don't work on the show notes, but they
will now I will redo the link so they still
they will start working. But if you have any issues,
just go to my social media platforms. Guys, all the
links on my social media's are up to date. Alrighty girl,

(45:18):
you just you. I feel like we've had a lot
of same experiences. I feel like, yeah, and I think like,
but like, even though we were adopted at different times
of our lives, Like I said earlier, it's so crazy
that we have similar feelings even with our religious trauma. Right, Yeah,
And how we've how we've gone through that. How is
your upbringing being a transracial adopting the Mormon Church? How's

(45:40):
that affected you're parenting? You spoke about your boys a
little bit, but has that has that truly affected how
you parent? Has it been harder, easier? What do you think?

Speaker 2 (45:53):
Yeah? I absolutely feel like it's been harder because I
think when I realized that, like Mormonism is for me,
not only was it not for me, it like felt
against everything that I am, like who I truly am, Like,
I feel like it felt like it stole in essence
of like what I wanted out of life. So it

(46:17):
took a lot of mourning, Like, and it's very hard
to have kids too young, which is what we do
in Mormonism. We have kids way too young, we get
married way too young, and so especially experiencing those traumas
and trying to heal from that and also being discouraged
from therapy because it's very looked down upon again in

(46:38):
Mormonism to go to therapy. It made it really hard
for my first like my kids younger years, like as babies,
Like I think throughout that whole time, I was just
so depressed and just like trying to survive and like
keep them alive. Like there were days that I'd like
get my son up and get him ready and get
him fed and like put him in front of the TV.

(46:59):
And I would just like go to our downstairs bathroom
and just like scream and cry while I was staying
a shower because I just was like, what is this,
Like this just feels like not my life. Like I
never I never envisioned myself as a stay at home
mom right. Anytime like they would talk about like it's
best for kids if you are a stay at home mom,

(47:20):
I would always think that, like I don't want to
do this.

Speaker 1 (47:22):
But I wasn't like what's best for me, yeah, but
I thought that, like I.

Speaker 2 (47:27):
Need to do this because this is what God wants
me to do. Right, So any decision that like I
wanted to make felt always in opposition of like what
God wanted for me. You know, it was like always opposite,
like be a stay at home mom, I didn't want
to do that. I get married. I didn't want to
do that, but I got married, you know, or just
every single little decision that I'd make. It's like everything

(47:49):
that I want is opposite of what God wants for me.

Speaker 1 (47:52):
Now, as you were going through this transition with your
religious trauma, your spouse i'm assuming was Mormon as well.
How did that work out? Was that?

Speaker 2 (48:00):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (48:00):
For you or your relationship that they support you in it.

Speaker 2 (48:03):
Yeah, so my spouse is still Mormon. He's still Mormon,
and so that was love Jesus.

Speaker 1 (48:09):
I was one of the love Jesus.

Speaker 2 (48:13):
Well, they also, like our family and stuff are still Mormon,
and like I feel like we live in Virginia, so
a lot of people there are still very Christian and
very religious. And I'm like, yeah, I love Jesus all
you want, but doesn't mean you're gonna get baptized. So
my spouse and I like, I think for him, he's
deconstructed a lot too. Like I think, like when I

(48:35):
describe him, he's mentally still in Mormonism, but physically definitely
not there. He doesn't go to church every week he
drinks alcohol, which is a big no no against Mormonism,
but he still considers himself Mormon. And part of that
is just like it goes deep, right, like this is

(48:57):
how we were raised, and like I don't think that,
like I understand where he's at because I've been there.
And I also don't think that like I would get
the same level of understanding because you know, he's half
black and was raised by his mom who's white, and

(49:17):
so I feel like there's so much of us that's
so similar of that understanding and that connection that we're
able to work it out. And it was hard because
he was very I was incredibly triggered, especially after going
through religious trauma, like everything you're just so heightened, you know.
And then he was very triggered because he's still very

(49:37):
much so at the time was in the religion, going
every week and trying to like you know, when you're
going to church, and like I had to. I was
like a leader in the church. So I had to
tell the pastor or bishop is what we call it Immormonism,
that I no longer was going to attend and that
like I didn't want to be a part of this,
and so like by that effect, like the whole congregation knew,

(49:59):
you know that I was.

Speaker 1 (50:00):
No longer and you guys don't do because I know,
like the Amish, and like I think the Seventh Day,
the event is they start shunning people. Do the Mormons
shun y'all?

Speaker 2 (50:08):
There's levels to it, so they wouldn't say that they do,
but there is, like you are considered like an outsider,
like my family, Like I consider this a type of
shunning of like they've never asked me why I left.
They don't ever want to hear any like any of
that of what my reasons were for I left. What
I believe now, Like I did a podcast called Mormon Stories,

(50:32):
which is for Mormons who leave, and they were very
hurt by it, but also never listen to it, you know.
So that but that to me is like I don't
feel like my family knows who I am now, right,
So I consider that a type of shunning. Like yes
they see my kids, Yes we talk, but it's like

(50:54):
surface level, it only goes so deep. Yeah, And I
so I feel like that's like I don't know, I
would love to have a deeper relationship with them, but
that's as far as they'll let it go Like I
think anytime I've tried to have a conversation with my parents,
it's kind of been shut down and like redirected of
how great Mormonism is. And so I do consider that just.

Speaker 1 (51:16):
Like it must be crazy to not be able And
I kind of deal with the same thing with my
adoptive parents. But my adopt parents was just crazy as fuck.
But my dad seems to be kind of coming around
a little bit. But they won't leave the church. They won't.
And then part of them not leaving the church is

(51:37):
that they won't have those conversations that need to be
at right, Yeah, those hard conversations, And then that just
means like if you're just going through the flow, going
with the flow, Like what is that though?

Speaker 2 (51:47):
Is that really?

Speaker 1 (51:48):
And it's just like it's hard to have parents and
not have parents, Like that's what I'm trying to say.
It's like, once again, I'm like, I'm kind of glad
my parents left me on the street because I don't
have to do with this.

Speaker 2 (52:02):
I'm glad my parents abandoned me. I'm not glad they
left minds.

Speaker 1 (52:07):
Well, I mean, every every experience has a silver lining,
I believe in that was it hard. Yes, did I
get human trafficked, Yes, but I became a very strong
independent person. Yeah, need no parents for nothing, And now
twenty years later, I have a fantastic life. So like, yeah,
I don't know if I would have stayed, if they
would have, I don't know what how I would have been.
I definitely would have been more traumatized when it came

(52:29):
to religion. I would have been more traumatized when it
came to my sexuality. Yeah, And I can understand, Like
that's why I said, I'm not like glad that they
have left me on the street, But I wouldn't want
to be in your predicament where like I want my
children or I want even for myself to have a
relationship with these people, but they don't want to acknowledge me. Yeah,
I'd just go. So I'm like, thank thank you, Dabby,
thank you Daddy, because if he was never going to change,

(52:51):
just go. Yeah. I know.

Speaker 2 (52:53):
Like one of the hard things is like, yeah, I
do think the religion gets in the way of like
having those deep, meaningful conversations about race and are upbringing.
Like I have no hate towards my adopted.

Speaker 1 (53:03):
Parents, talk about race. Let's talk about race real quick, Yeah,
do your parents, Like, I'm sure after you started unpacking
things like you really, I'm assuming we let me know,
Like your idea of racism and being a black woman
has definitely changed since you've been a young child or
look yourself in the mirror. So how has it been
not being able to have those conversations like hey, mom,
Like I'm a black woman and I go through different

(53:26):
scenarios even being a mother, Like black women have the
highest mortality rate for worse, Like, how how do you
how do they not acknowledge any of that and how
is that for you?

Speaker 2 (53:36):
Yeah, I've had to go to my biological mom for
stuff like that. Like that's who I've been leaning on,
and I think it has healed my relationship with my
own children. Like my sons are four and seven right now,
and it's like like this time of life that we're
in has just been life changing for me because I like,
I love being a mom. I love like my kids,

(54:00):
and I love that I get to do it how
I want to do it right, Like I just like
I just want my kids to like be and like
for my whole life, I've just wanted to be and
just like be understood and be heard. And so now
that's like what I can offer to them, right is
like I don't know how to do it perfectly, but

(54:22):
like like they have someone that's like not going to
judge them no matter what they do, I'm not going
to judge them. And like in Mormonism, it's very much
like once you turn eighteen, you're some family's like my own,
like you're kind of on your own.

Speaker 1 (54:40):
And like for my kids, it's like I don't.

Speaker 2 (54:42):
Want that for them, Like I want my kids to
live a soft life, you know. And just when it
comes to race, it's like I have to acknowledge that
these things do play into effect.

Speaker 1 (54:55):
And I'm so.

Speaker 2 (54:56):
Happy I married a black man who understoo and that
as well for our sons, because our sons, my husband
is very light skinned, but our sons are not like
and so I'm glad he understands like like how they
operate in the world and like the values that we're
instilling in them. And so I don't think my parents,

(55:19):
like my adopted parents, I will ever be able to
have the conversations of how like racially traumatized, I didn't
do you.

Speaker 1 (55:31):
Think so got the I got the opportunity to talk
to my adoptive mother about race. It was about five
or six years ago. I recorded it. If you want
to listen to it, it's actually quite hilarious. I do
need to listen. She says white privilege doesn't exist, racism
doesn't exist, Black people just need to put themselves up
by their bootstraps, and pretty much like she has a

(55:55):
very white supremacist like Reagan Republican mindset. Do you think
if your parents were to say that, would that make it?
I guess my question is if your parents were to say, like, hey,
we just don't see color, we never will, like racism
doesn't exist, would that be even some sort of a
better conversation than no conversation.

Speaker 2 (56:13):
I mean, I've had conversations where like, yeah, I feel
like they are definitely like more on the color blind side,
and like also the what I think they fall more on,
like the white saviorism right, Like they're going on a
Mormon mission to Africa this next year to like, you know,
save the black children. So it's like ironic because like

(56:36):
when you talk about like these things that are affecting
like black Americans and Africa in general, like they will
never admit that like missionary work and that colonization is
what's caused this, you know, and like are you really
helping it? Like do these people really need this fucking

(56:56):
religion or do you need or they just need you
to stay up their lives and stop like messing with
their natural born you know, in Africa specifically, we took
all of their minerals and stuff, you know, like we
just would leave them alone and let them use their

(57:16):
own resources instead of exploiting them. And I see like
missionary work. I went on a Mormon mission, unfortunately, and
it is exploitation.

Speaker 1 (57:27):
Of a lot of people who actually don't also understand
that missionary work directly coincides to colonization when it comes
to they're not just teaching them how to pray in
their religion, they're also teaching them how to interact with
the Westerners so they can come in and like you said,
drill for colbalt, drill for diamond minds, communicate with them better,

(57:48):
right or like see like hey we civilized. Yeah, our
friends are going to come too, and they're going to
help you too. No they're not. They're going to come
take all your resources. So it's been directly connected since
the very existence. Colonization started with religion. I don't know
why people don't understand that exactly. He started like they
Jesus had go out and prosper and share his word.
That didn't mean take people's countries, babe.

Speaker 2 (58:09):
Yeah, And I feel like it's like even I have
to show you Carlos because it's like it's hard for
me because I like what I want to say. It
gets hard. But like even when they're sending us like
pictures of like can't like can't wait for this.

Speaker 1 (58:28):
That's giving Sarah McLaughlin the Angel And it's.

Speaker 2 (58:32):
So awkward to be like stop, like I get it
you like little black children.

Speaker 1 (58:38):
Like, oh my god, that's crazy.

Speaker 2 (58:41):
So at least it's not I guess it doesn't come
at the this. They're not racist in the sense of
like black people, we hate black people or this. It's
like we infantile, infantilize black people, We look down on
like think that they like like just need help getting
it to get other like we we take care of

(59:01):
their children because like they can't do it. You know.

Speaker 1 (59:06):
Yeah, yeah, did you just describe racism? Yeah, I get
you there.

Speaker 2 (59:17):
Yeah, there's levels because I've also experienced like I went
to Georgia on my mission, horrible experience Mormonism. That's when
I learned a lot of Mormon history that we don't
get taught and like that was like full blown, like
get off my lawn, nigger, like we're gonna kill you.
Like so that's why I'm like, there's levels like you

(59:37):
do you.

Speaker 1 (59:38):
Want to kill me? You want to use me for
my body and resources? Which one is it?

Speaker 2 (59:43):
Yeah? Let me know so I know.

Speaker 1 (59:46):
To Tara, thank you so much for sharing your emotional
and really really eye opening, you know, uh experience. I
think the stories like yours are even more powerful then
experiences like mine because of a lot of people say
they I get because I don't have contact with my
adoptive parents. People just don't take what I say seriously
and they're like, well, you could just try it. But

(01:00:07):
then I love talking to people like you who are
like I still have contact and there are still issues here.
It's a lot of things we just ignore them and
it's a very surface level, and it really gives people
a perspective, like at the end of the day, it's
the adoptive parents who made the decision to do the
adoption right and they should have given you all of
the things that you need for your racial identity, for

(01:00:27):
your religious identity, or there are not or too less
religious identity, you know. And then also at the end
of the day, no matter if you're a religious parent
or not, your children or your children and they are
especially if you chose them. And that's what really pisses
me off about adoptive parents who like shun or disconnect

(01:00:51):
or disabuse their children. You chose this. This wasn't an
one night stand because you had to ki after the
cheesecake factory and a few drinks, like you went through
a process. Yeah, chose this, and you should be my
biggest supporter. And when I hear that like parents aren't
or they choose religion over their children, you know, it
just makes me really sad. And I do hold out

(01:01:13):
hope because you know, I'm a hopeful person. I do
believe that if people have life and air and their lungs,
they always have a chance to change or learn or
improve or fix what they've done in the past. So
I'm going to hold that for your doctored family especially
just like just for you and your kids, because I
just I just know that like just having family, I
wish that even through all the trauma that I mean,

(01:01:35):
I'm rebuilding my relationships not with my parents because that's
just done, but with my brother. So I'm going to
see him this year. I saw him last year. I'm
going to his daughter's birthday in February, and I'm really
making it an effort to rebuild that relationship with him
because I do yearn for family, and that is my family,
and I do know how it feels to just be like, oh,
you have your faults, but you're still my mom and

(01:01:57):
my dad, and I think that that's the hardest thing.
So I hope that for you. I hope that mom
and dad and you know, other people in the Mormon
religion can just learn to like even have those conversations.
I'm not saying that they have to leave their religion,
but I hope that they learned just to accept to
who you are today and who you've always.

Speaker 2 (01:02:13):
Exactly, yeah, exactly, and like that's what life is all about.
Like I'm always going to keep the door open of
like when you're ready, but also I'm going to build
relationships with people who do want to know me, who
do value me. But I love it and I'm so
grateful that you let me come on this podcast, and
I would love to have you on my podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:02:34):
Yes, if you come, send me the information, I would
love it. Yeah. One last thing we do on the
show is we always ask the guests if there was
one piece of advice that they would give a child
and their similar circumstances, what would that be. So if
you could talk to a black, transracial adoptee who's going
through Mormonism right now, what would be one piece of
advice you would give them?

Speaker 2 (01:02:54):
I would say that you can leave all of the
bad stuff. I like, get connection with yourself and find
deep connection with your knowing who you are, because you
don't need Mormonism right like, I get that you have

(01:03:15):
to live it right now, but eventually you can walk
away if that's what you want to do, and you're
gonna be okay. I know it, Like is scary because
I held on to Mormonism for so long because of
abandonment issues and being afraid that I was going to
be abandoned if I left. And in some ways those
things do become true. But face your fears, know yourself,

(01:03:38):
and it's more important to live for yourself than for
other people.

Speaker 1 (01:03:43):
Be you. I love that. I love that before be
for you first, Well, thank you so much, love for
being on and I would love to come on your show.
Reach out to my assistant, she'll set it up. I'll
have to just schedule it with her. What is your
podcast about? What does it call it? Give it a
little shut out?

Speaker 2 (01:03:56):
So my podcast is called poudy Mouth and it's for
ex Mormon adoptees and women, just talking about the religious
trauma in general for Mormonism and then adoptees specifically.

Speaker 1 (01:04:11):
Can we drink on the show? Yeah, I'll be there.
I'll be there.

Speaker 2 (01:04:16):
You can drink, you can smoke, you can do whatever.

Speaker 1 (01:04:20):
I'll be there.

Speaker 2 (01:04:21):
I take it edible right before.

Speaker 1 (01:04:23):
So I wish I could drink on this show, but
then I can't because there's too much information.

Speaker 2 (01:04:32):
Yours is very serious. Yours is very serious. I don't
feel like mine is as serious. Why it's mine's just
like a kind of a dick around show.

Speaker 1 (01:04:40):
I love that, I love it. I love that. Yes,
I would love to be on that. Well, thank you
so much for sharing your lived experience, and I just
can't wait. I can't wait to see how you prosper
and grow and continue to share your experience, might shiners
make sure you are sharing, And like I keep saying,
I keep pushing it because we need y'all to listen
to the show and hear stories the one we just heard.

(01:05:01):
It's just it just brings it. I feel like yours
is I would consider it a feel good story. It's
like it's not horrible. Yeah, yeah, but it's not. It
ain't the best, no, And that's.

Speaker 2 (01:05:12):
Why I think it's like I've always felt bad because
I'm like, my experience is not like horrible, Like I
still love my family, but like that you still get
there's still trauma, there's still damage from it.

Speaker 1 (01:05:22):
And that's what we need. And like experiences like yours
where it's like, hey, there's little fixes that we could do, right,
we just little things. We're not anti adoption, We're just
anti ignorance. And also like adoption rights, we got to talk.

Speaker 2 (01:05:35):
More rights for adoptees. Yeah, like change my fucking birth certificate.
And I'm still a little salty that my name was
changed too.

Speaker 1 (01:05:42):
Oh no, it's okay. I was salty about that the
entire time. I've also been salty about the birth certificate.
I've made it my mission to try to get like
that change for us all adoptees. But I have I
have now come with older age and my adoptive mother
is getting older. I'm your firstborn son according to my
birth certificate. Oh I just can't wait for you to
get older, and especially if you have me do your

(01:06:04):
elder care. Oh I can't wait. Oh girl, I cannot wait.
Don't let you die because I'm Finn. Show the funk
out at that funeral. Like we're like, now, I'm the sun,
I'm the eldest.

Speaker 2 (01:06:19):
I'm the eldest. Take care of it.

Speaker 1 (01:06:22):
You're like, OK, I'll take care of it. Girl, we're
having your funeral. I'm like, the memorrow will be out
the parking lot of the Popeyes.

Speaker 2 (01:06:30):
I thought you're gonna say cracker barrel.

Speaker 1 (01:06:34):
We're having the memorrow and cracker barrel. Guys there, We're
not paying for anything. Bring your own money. Yeah all right?

Speaker 2 (01:06:44):
Yea.

Speaker 1 (01:06:44):
Well, like shiners, make sure that you are continuing to
show the story. Thank you for being here with us.
Thank you so much Tara for sharing your experience. I
really truly appreciate it. And like I say every week, y'all,
keep speaking out, keep being yourself, keep shining light because
you never know how your light might and wants other
people to start shining there. So until next week, guys,
it's always shine your light,