Ep: 74 "Hart & Michael"

Hey Light Shiners! I am joined by Hart, who is a pre-birth match adoptee who is joined by their biological brother Michael. They speak about how reunification has been for them and Hart speaks about having a net-positive adoption, but still feeling the loss of their sibling 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:08):
Content warning.

Speaker 2 (00:09):
The Wards of the State podcast may contain material that
may be harmful or traumatizing to some audiences. Listener discretion
is advised. Heylight Shiners, Welcome back to another episode of

(00:38):
Wards of the States. We are going on. I think
this is our third year, y'all. We have over one
hundred episodes of so much lived experience. Today we have
a real treat. I think today might be the first
time where we have a pair of siblings. I know
we did have another set of siblings that was like
two years ago, similar situation. This girl, I don't know
if you guys remember her episode. I have to look
at the episode.

Speaker 1 (00:58):
I'll put it in the show notes.

Speaker 2 (00:59):
But she reached out to me on Instagram and she said, Carlos,
I just found out that I had a brother that
was born and he was adopted really young.

Speaker 1 (01:06):
Can you help me find him?

Speaker 2 (01:07):
And usually like, I don't answer my dms, but something
told me to just like answer her DM. So at
the time I was working with the research team, and
I said, give me as much information as you can.

Speaker 1 (01:17):
Long story short.

Speaker 2 (01:18):
After like four months of helping her, we find his
adoptive parents, which then led us to him and it
turned out like his adoption didn't go so great. He
was actually currently nineteen and homeless, and she went to
our brother and now they've been living together for like
two years. I actually have to do an update episode
with them. She's helping him through college, and she just

(01:39):
sent me a DM a couple of weeks ago, just
like she gives me updates every couple months, and she
says he's doing well in college, and you know, there's
been some growing pains and some adjustments, but she says
overall like she wouldn't change a thing. So I'm excited
to hear this episode that we have coming up with
you guys, because I think it's something similar to that one.
But I do want to remind you guys that to
keep this podcast going, we need you guys support, and

(01:59):
the best way for you support is to leave a one, two, three, four,
five star rating and review. You can do that on
Apple Podcast. You can also make sure that you're subscribing
to us on Spotify, and you can listen to us
on iHeartRadio, and we all leave those writing ratings and review.
Leave a rating and a review, so tell us how
you like it. Make sure that you guys will leave
some suggestions if you would like us to improve anything,

(02:21):
but that's the number one way that we're going to
be able to continue to support Lift Experience voices. We
also have some updates y'all. We have the Bringing Light
to Truth book Tour. That is my first book tour
that I'm doing for my first two memoirs. Our first
bookstop is going to be in Las Vegas. I'm super
super excited. That will be March twenty second. We also
have I believe Portland on May tenth, Seattle on May eleventh, Columbus,

(02:46):
Ohio on June fifth, and we just confirmed Atlanta and
San Diego. I just don't know the exact dates because
I don't have them in front of me. So if
you and we also have other cities coming, so if
you want to check out all of that information, I
will put the link in the sho show notes to
the website, or you can just go to www dot
Carlosdaler dot com, click on the events tap and you
will see all of our upcoming events.

Speaker 1 (03:07):
These booked signings are free.

Speaker 2 (03:09):
It's going to be a great way for you guys
to come, bring your foster youth, bring your adoptees, if
you're a foster, adopt the parent, or social worker, anyone
interested in learning about the child welfare system. We've made
all of our tour free for you guys. We do
ask that you take a ticket on event right, just
so we know how many people are showing up, but
I wanted to make it inclusive for everyone in all budgets.
If you would like to donate, you sure can. There

(03:29):
is a donate button on the event right. But if
you want to just show up, make sure you get
your ticket and I'll see you guys there. If you
want to know, if you want to suggest any cities,
make sure you interact with me on my social media
atwater the State on all platforms, just how I can
know where you guys want us to go. So, without
further ado, I want to introduce our next guest. We
have siblings, Michael and Hart. How are y'all doing today?

Speaker 1 (03:50):
Awesome?

Speaker 2 (03:50):
So I was really excited with my assistant said, Hey,
I have heart here and they want to bring their
sibling on and how will we do that. I was like, Hey,
bring them on, let's see, let's hear their experience. So
it's going to be a real treat for the listeners
to hear, like, you know, two sets of a story
that is kind of working in both of y'all's lives
at different times.

Speaker 1 (04:08):
I'm very interested, So let's just start from the beginning.

Speaker 2 (04:10):
I'm hard to going to introduce yourself and kind of
tell the folks how you got into the child weelfare system.

Speaker 3 (04:15):
Sure, well, thank you so much, Carlos. I'm just I'm
really excited, delighted to be here to meet you. I like,
I just found you and your work like in the
last few months, and I'm just really grateful for who
you are and what you're doing. So yeah, this is
really great. So yeah, my name is hard they then pronouns, and.

Speaker 4 (04:42):
I was born.

Speaker 3 (04:45):
It was a pre birth matched private adoption, same race adoption,
and my like our birth mother lived. She's from Michigan,
and she came out to California for the pregnancy and
the adoption, and my adoptive parents picked me up from
the hospital just a few hours after I was born,

(05:07):
and I was raised in California, the Bay Area, like
my whole life. Yeah, that's like kind of the overview
around adoption. I'm also a social worker and that's been
a really cool thing that we can talk more about too,
just of how our like family, like the connections and

(05:27):
similarities that I found when I was did get into
reunion with my family. I should say it was an
open adoption, but that can mean so.

Speaker 5 (05:38):
Many different things, for like there's not like necessarily like
an agreement or like what that looks like.

Speaker 4 (05:46):
So, so it was an open.

Speaker 3 (05:48):
Adoption, and my adoptive mom and birth mom were writing
letters until I was five or six, and then there was.

Speaker 4 (05:56):
Like lost communication for many many years.

Speaker 3 (05:59):
Now, like I mentioned, we are in reunion and it's
been a wild journey. So yeah, so I was saying
that it was an open adoption last communication, and I've
been in reunion for the last since twenty seventeen.

Speaker 2 (06:18):
So when you said you were a pre birth match adoption, HM,
what was the scenario of why your adoption occurred?

Speaker 3 (06:26):
Well, I think it's like a somewhat typical story, which
I found out later. A lot of people who were
like pregnant and like young aged and didn't have family
support or lots of shame in the Midwest came to
California or like the West Coast, especially with open adoptions.
So that was the situation with my birth mother.

Speaker 2 (06:48):
And you too share a birth mother or birth father
and birth mother birth mother.

Speaker 4 (06:53):
Okay, at my different birth father.

Speaker 1 (06:56):
So were you both adopted in Michael or you were not?

Speaker 2 (07:00):
So how much of an age difference is there then,
because usually that's what we see when one child is
adopted and then another is not. There's usually like a
ten plus age difference. What's y'all's age difference?

Speaker 6 (07:10):
I'm thirty two.

Speaker 4 (07:11):
Yeah, we're five years so I'm thirty.

Speaker 1 (07:13):
Eight only five.

Speaker 2 (07:16):
Well, there's hues they were just walking out.

Speaker 6 (07:22):
So just us and Joshua.

Speaker 1 (07:24):
How many maternal biological siblings do you guys have?

Speaker 3 (07:28):
There's five of us, five of us yeah, yeah, and
we're kind of like two years spread apart.

Speaker 1 (07:33):
Pretty much is the and who? And how many were adopted?

Speaker 2 (07:38):
Just me?

Speaker 1 (07:39):
Just the first friend?

Speaker 2 (07:40):
Okay, So you know we hear that sometimes with adoptees
that I speak And have you ever heart, have you
ever just like asked your biological mother like why like
why me? Or have you ever felt like dang, she
had four after me? But yeah, she cann't do it
with me?

Speaker 1 (07:56):
How did that? How did that feel finding that out?

Speaker 4 (08:00):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (08:00):
Well, I mean I knew I was adopted from when
I was little, but I didn't really talk like my
parents told me about it, but it didn't really like
make sense or like it wasn't relevant until later. But
I think a lot of adoptees, you know, are very

(08:23):
like empathetic because we've had to learn those skills to
get through the trauma. And so I felt like I understood.

Speaker 5 (08:31):
That she was young and she didn't have a partner,
and that like her family wasn't really supportive financially, or
like there was a lot of there was a lot
of shame, and like there was a religious it was
a Catholic religion was an important part of why.

Speaker 4 (08:47):
I was adopted and through this private agency.

Speaker 3 (08:50):
But yeah, there's there's definitely still feelings around it. I'm
exploring and that I've been able to talk with my
birth mom about about some of it. But for her,
it just it wasn't really an option.

Speaker 5 (09:04):
She didn't didn't want to have an abortion, like that
was not an option, and so the only option was
really an option that supported by her family.

Speaker 2 (09:14):
And so you said, growing up, your adoptive parents did
let you know that you were adopted?

Speaker 1 (09:20):
Did you?

Speaker 2 (09:20):
Did they encourage connections with your biological family at all
or siblings at all.

Speaker 5 (09:25):
So I only knew that I had one brother who
was two years younger than me because of those letters
that they wrote till I was about six, because my
older brother John, Yeah, our other brother John.

Speaker 4 (09:39):
So I didn't know that.

Speaker 3 (09:41):
I even had other siblings, Like, well, growing up my
life and yeah, there was I'd never talked to my
birth mother, you know, like it was not very much
a part of my life. And you know, I think
about myself now or like if I wanted to continue

(10:03):
like people supporting, people connecting, what that would look like.

Speaker 4 (10:08):
And I think for me it would look very different.
I don't think it was really encouraged or supported, like.

Speaker 5 (10:17):
I mean, you know enough to say, oh well we tried,
like we wrote letters. We tried, and I think she's
like moving on with her life.

Speaker 4 (10:25):
And that was pretty.

Speaker 1 (10:27):
Much now, Michael.

Speaker 2 (10:29):
Growing up you said you were five years younger growing up,
Did you know that you had an older sister.

Speaker 1 (10:34):
Was it something that your mother told you growing up
that you.

Speaker 6 (10:36):
Actually I did not know about heart until later on.

Speaker 1 (10:41):
They're simply sorry. I just caught myself.

Speaker 7 (10:44):
Sorry, Sea, I wasn't aware of heart growing up until
later on.

Speaker 6 (10:49):
There was a moment when I was I think in
high school.

Speaker 7 (10:52):
Maybe my mom had mentioned it, but I had a
really traumatic upbringing and I was like in a really
deep state of depression and a substance use. And I
didn't even like process that like conversation back then. So
it wasn't even until what was that twenty sixteen or
twenty seventeen where heart had reached back out or like

(11:13):
made the initial connection I think through Facebook Messenger, which yeah,
really changed everything, and it was like a lot I
was a lot more present at this point.

Speaker 6 (11:22):
I was sober. I was in New Zealand living in
a van.

Speaker 1 (11:26):
Wow, that sounds well, that sounds fun. Yeah, that sounds
really fun.

Speaker 2 (11:31):
So you grew up just, and I always ask this
when I have siblings who grew up in different scenarios
hard I want to ask you, knowing that you know
the trials and tribulations that your younger siblings went through.

Speaker 1 (11:43):
How do you compare that to your life.

Speaker 2 (11:45):
I'm sure you get asked that maybe often sometimes, or
like would you rather have been home or would you
would rather have had your experience as an adoptee.

Speaker 3 (11:53):
I mean, it's pretty complex. It's very complex.

Speaker 5 (11:57):
When I and Just to go back a little bit.

Speaker 3 (12:01):
When I connected through Facebook. That was actually my second
time reaching out. I had called phone call. I found
her number and I called randomly like when I was
in college in undergrad when I was eighteen, and was
just like hi, and and.

Speaker 5 (12:18):
Then I didn't really hear back, so I was I
kind of like, let that lie. So that was like,
I think that was the first time when she talked.

Speaker 6 (12:28):
About Okay, yes, I must have been pretty young.

Speaker 4 (12:31):
Yeah, well that was when Katie and oh.

Speaker 6 (12:33):
Yeah, yeah, there was a lot happening at the time.

Speaker 5 (12:35):
Yeah, which I didn't find out why there was so
much happening at that time when I called that I
got to learn about later. Okay, oh yeah, So it's
been Yeah, so many different layers of feelings around it too,
because I had no idea of like what life was

(12:58):
like for my siblings, and then just through getting to
know them and hearing, you know, their experience, it brings
up like you know, because my like adoptive family were
like good parents. It was stable, middle class, no not
much like no like physical abuse or anything.

Speaker 4 (13:23):
Some you know, religious.

Speaker 2 (13:24):
Stuff, religious trauma. We call that a net positive, a
net positive adoption. Again, as where it's like it's net positive,
but there's some issues that.

Speaker 1 (13:32):
We probably could have been solved.

Speaker 2 (13:36):
I always I always ask that question because I also
reunified with my siblings when I was eighteen, and they
we all went into foster care together and we grew
up together, and we got separated while we were going
through the system. So the last time I had seen them,
I was about eight years old. So I'm now it's
ten years later. And when I first reunified, it was
really joyful. I found my mom on Facebook, reached out

(13:58):
to her, drove up to Michigan, met everyone. But then
and I did have a really negative adoption, like complete
negative adoption, and I always I think meeting my family
kind of gave me a silver lining of even in
my negative adoption, there were things that I got opportunities for,
which was access to higher education, totally access to like

(14:20):
like Silver and Learning Center or Kuman or things that
I needed to help me catch up.

Speaker 1 (14:25):
And that's one thing.

Speaker 2 (14:26):
Even with my abusive adopted parents, I say thank you
for taking some of that money that the stay gave
you every month and at least making sure that I
would be okay. Because now I look at my siblings,
and they struggle with things that kind of come natural
to me. And even though we came from the same environment,
the only difference was I had access to different learning opportunities.
So when you were answering that question, I kind of

(14:48):
felt you were. It's just like it's hard and there's
a lot of emotions because did I want my siblings
growing up? Absolutely? What I would I don't know, especially
in my predicament. It's like, would you want to go
to a shitty home or shitty er home?

Speaker 1 (15:01):
Well, the shitty home.

Speaker 2 (15:02):
At least as my siblings, right, So it's like it's
a really hard.

Speaker 1 (15:09):
Conundrum to be in the middle of.

Speaker 4 (15:10):
Exactly.

Speaker 3 (15:11):
Yeah, I totally relate to that similar kind of thing around.
I went to private school growing up, I got to
go to you know, my parents put me through college
undergrad so opportunities and hobbies and all that stuff was
supported growing up.

Speaker 2 (15:30):
So when you were growing up, Michael, and you said
like you had no idea of your older sibling, You
had your current situation. What and after you went through
your personal experiences, like what encouraged you to kind of
breild this relationship with heart?

Speaker 6 (15:45):
Well, first off, I didn't get to do an introduction,
So I'll do that really.

Speaker 2 (15:48):
Oh yeah, we just kind of stipped over Michael. Yeah,
Michael's here, but it's going to introduce yourself.

Speaker 7 (15:53):
So Michael, he him pronouns I live in Michigan. So
when you mentioned Michigan, what.

Speaker 1 (15:58):
Part of Michigan.

Speaker 6 (15:59):
So I live currently in Rochester. I was born in.

Speaker 4 (16:02):
Detroit, outside of Detroit.

Speaker 6 (16:05):
Yeah, so it's like thirty five forty minutes north of Detroit.

Speaker 1 (16:08):
I'm from six malin Dexter, So Rochester is a little
bit north. I grew up.

Speaker 2 (16:12):
I was adopted in Alligan, which is like right outside
of Kalamazoo, very very small, small small town.

Speaker 6 (16:18):
Yeah. I do work out in that area.

Speaker 1 (16:21):
Awesome. All right, so thank you for introducing yourself. Michael.

Speaker 2 (16:24):
Sorry, I just kind of get into your stores. Is
so fascinating. So yeah, tell us about your experience. And
with that last.

Speaker 7 (16:30):
Question, Yeah, I get really emotional thinking back upon that time.
I was like having the biggest breakthrough in my life,
finally leaving my home environment, leaving a lot of my
friends in safety nets. I was newly into sobriety, really discovering.

Speaker 6 (16:47):
Who I was.

Speaker 7 (16:48):
And I was in New Zealand, which I had never
left the country like that, I had sold all my things.
I didn't have a lot of money to my name,
but like my wife and I now she was my
partner at the time.

Speaker 6 (16:58):
We were there.

Speaker 7 (17:00):
I remember getting this message and it was from Heart,
and I remember like being prepped for this, but I
wasn't like ready for like the message, I think, and
I read it and I was like I'd have to
go back and look at it, but I was just
I was just really like it felt really it's hard
to put into words, it felt really good to like
feel it. It was like, wow, like this is exciting.

Speaker 6 (17:21):
Who is this person? And I think I called you
and I.

Speaker 7 (17:24):
Was like walking around the square in this like town
in New Zealand and immediately I don't know what your
experience was, but for me, I felt like I had
just bridged this like longing connection to somebody that like
I felt like I already knew.

Speaker 6 (17:39):
And it was really weird to.

Speaker 7 (17:42):
Just like talk to this person that I didn't know,
but I felt like I knew my entire life. And
that's when we discovered this thread that Heart started alluding
to that we were both social workers. I wasn't a
social worker yet, but I was going into social work
and Heart was in social work, and then yeah, lots
of different things I learned about their.

Speaker 6 (17:59):
True and I'm like, I'm traveling now.

Speaker 1 (18:02):
Like that's awesome.

Speaker 2 (18:03):
So you guys already had like a lot of similarities,
you know. And it's crazy when people try to bring
up like the blank slate theory and adoption and they're
just like, oh, well, you know, you can adopt a
baby and they're going to have no similarities as to
their biological family. I'm like, no, you would be surprised,
like a child could never know their biological family and
be just like them. I see that happen a lot

(18:23):
when I went home, and I even like my nieces
and nephews, I'm like, oh my god, you are just
like me, you know. So speaking of nieces and nephews,
did you have children, Michael before your your unification with
Heart or your children are younger?

Speaker 1 (18:36):
Now?

Speaker 6 (18:36):
I do not have children.

Speaker 1 (18:37):
You don't have well who had children? Somebody? Everybody else got.

Speaker 6 (18:44):
Seven kids?

Speaker 2 (18:45):
And are there some older siblings that you had to
introduce yourself to Heart that are like that didn't grow
up knowing that they had an older How do y'all
say that in third person siblings or like it's not
a sibling but a family member.

Speaker 1 (19:00):
Yeah, family, I'm traumba this.

Speaker 4 (19:02):
Yeah, I know you're doing great.

Speaker 1 (19:03):
Well.

Speaker 4 (19:04):
I think it was similar.

Speaker 3 (19:06):
I mean Mike left for there's New Zealand trip the
day after I, so you.

Speaker 2 (19:13):
Like left New Zealand. Like were you already planning to
leave going to New Zealand? You left to New Zealand, okay.

Speaker 3 (19:19):
And so yeah, that's sorry. I get a little side
drapped neurodivergent like that was.

Speaker 6 (19:26):
It commercial breaks?

Speaker 4 (19:27):
Commercial break? So like that was a part of it too.

Speaker 5 (19:32):
Like when I reached out to my birth mom, she
was sad that they were leaving.

Speaker 4 (19:38):
They got a one way trip.

Speaker 6 (19:39):
Yep, we didn't have a.

Speaker 1 (19:41):
And so she was like, that's a very white thing
to do.

Speaker 2 (19:44):
I'm sorry, a one way trip to Have you ever
been to New Zealand before?

Speaker 1 (19:51):
Yeah?

Speaker 6 (19:51):
Yeah, my wife had been there before.

Speaker 1 (19:53):
Okay.

Speaker 7 (19:54):
And she came back and mind you, I was the
person that was like I would never do something like that,
And then she was like, I'm going back with or
without you. I was like, maybe I want to try
this out.

Speaker 2 (20:04):
It sounds fun in theory, but I'm went out a
return ticket.

Speaker 1 (20:08):
Oh no, that's bo, that's bot.

Speaker 6 (20:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (20:11):
Yeah, So what was your question again?

Speaker 2 (20:14):
So I guess we were talking about your response of
like him with other siblings.

Speaker 1 (20:19):
Yeah, with the other siblings and things and the kids.

Speaker 3 (20:21):
I think that my birth mom probably talked to you
all together, right, like that so fun.

Speaker 2 (20:29):
And Michael, how did your mother break it to you? Like, hey, guys,
I had a chow.

Speaker 1 (20:32):
I didn't tell y'all.

Speaker 6 (20:34):
Yeah, and yeah, I think now it's coming back to me.

Speaker 7 (20:36):
So I remember she had like explained that and how
she had mentioned it before. But now it's like we
actually like want Like I felt like all of us
were kind of excited about this.

Speaker 6 (20:47):
We were also like what the fuck mom, Like why
did you tell us?

Speaker 7 (20:52):
And yeah, I remember, like you know, looking up hearts
Facebook and being like who is this person?

Speaker 6 (20:57):
Like wow, this is really cool.

Speaker 7 (20:58):
So there was a lot of excitement on my and
and some of my other siblings just like I wonder
what this is going to mean.

Speaker 6 (21:03):
And we were also like, wow, heart looks a lot
like my mom.

Speaker 7 (21:06):
That was really I think the most features out of
all of us.

Speaker 6 (21:10):
A heart looks like mom.

Speaker 2 (21:12):
Now heart, did you have any reunification with your paternal
side of your family.

Speaker 5 (21:17):
No, that's a I think I found him on Facebook too,
and I did write him a message, although I was
much more wary because of just some of the things
I saw on his Facebook page looked like pretty racist,
pretty like conservative, and like as a queer person.

Speaker 4 (21:35):
It was like, I'm going to.

Speaker 3 (21:37):
Put this out there, but I don't really feel like
I want to connect with you.

Speaker 4 (21:41):
But I did put it out there, and I never
heard back from him. I messaged him twice, like a
few years apart, but I think he's in Ohio.

Speaker 1 (21:49):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (21:50):
And Michael, you and your other siblings, do you guys
all share the same fathers or you guys.

Speaker 1 (21:55):
Have different fathers?

Speaker 6 (21:56):
No, yeah, we have the same father.

Speaker 1 (21:57):
And are both of your parents in the live yep?

Speaker 6 (22:00):
Yeah, and they're still married?

Speaker 1 (22:02):
And how does that? How does that feel? Hard?

Speaker 2 (22:04):
Like do you say, like, is that your stepdad? Does
he treat you like a dad? How is that experience?
I'm asking I get real personal, y'all, because we want
I want to get into the nitty gritty of like
reunification and how this looks. Because on the podcast, people
and families are going to be in y'all similar situations possibly,
and I kind of want to use the podcast to
give them like some like this is what you do right,

(22:25):
is what you do wrong? So sorry if anything's ever
to personal, just like my new business Carlos.

Speaker 4 (22:30):
We are laughing just because of the relationship.

Speaker 7 (22:34):
Yeah, because he's it's a complex relationship, even for me
and I think we both like know.

Speaker 5 (22:39):
This, and my birth mom and him have their own
stuff that they haven't quite.

Speaker 1 (22:44):
Oh do they know each other?

Speaker 4 (22:46):
No, my birth mom and her husband.

Speaker 1 (22:48):
So are my parents your parents?

Speaker 2 (22:51):
Oh okay, I was gonna say, wait, how does your
birth mom know your stepdad?

Speaker 4 (22:56):
I didn't really. I call him Brian, call him.

Speaker 2 (23:00):
We love Brian, We love so how so you know?
And that's the thing. Also when funny enough, my mom's husband,
my birth mom's husband when I reunified, his name is Brian.
But Brian was cool. Brian was like the best thing
from my mom. Brian was like a little bit on
the spectrum, which I adored because like he really sold
my mom down, like slowed her down, but calmed her out.

(23:23):
Brian was awesome, awesome, awesome. She, my mom and my
sister died in a car accidents a few years ago.
And that's why I always am interested in how is
the relationship with you know, the stepparent or even like
that extended families.

Speaker 3 (23:38):
So yeah, well what I can say about it is
when I first went out, I met, I went out,
so I met, I connected on Facebook. It was like
maybe March twenty is that when you left during New Zealand?

Speaker 4 (23:52):
What month was that, Oh it's souch April before your birthday.

Speaker 3 (23:57):
It was like spring twenty seventeen. And then I went
out to Michigan from California the following summer or spring
to meet them.

Speaker 4 (24:08):
And I will say that.

Speaker 3 (24:09):
Like Brian is interesting to have someone who's not the
direct biorelative as like a bit of a buffer. And
also Elec Tricia, Mike's wife, has been very much that
just like someone who's like kind of sees the whole thing,
but they're.

Speaker 1 (24:26):
Not like in it, yeah, not attached.

Speaker 4 (24:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (24:31):
So he that was actually a really important piece. Like
he took me to Detroit, we hung out. He was
you know, telling me about him and the family from
his perspective and some of the drama and stuff that
had happened.

Speaker 4 (24:47):
So that was actually really like that was really important
and meaningful.

Speaker 7 (24:51):
Yeah, I mean, my dad's a really complex person. He's
also in therapy right now, which is really fucking awesome.

Speaker 1 (24:57):
Love that.

Speaker 6 (24:59):
Also swearing.

Speaker 1 (24:59):
Okay, this podcast, Yeah, it's an explicit podcast.

Speaker 7 (25:03):
Yeah, I just want to make sure you get monetized thuff.

Speaker 1 (25:07):
Yeah, it's hard monetizing, but we do. We got a
little bit of sponsor.

Speaker 7 (25:12):
Yeah, he's a really complex person, but I think he
tries to really show up for people.

Speaker 6 (25:16):
He is very selfish, but he's working on that.

Speaker 7 (25:18):
But I can imagine like that experience, you know, he
when he needs to show up, he does show up,
which is cool.

Speaker 1 (25:25):
Yeah, I love that.

Speaker 3 (25:27):
Yeah, but I would say we have much of an
ongoing relationship.

Speaker 1 (25:31):
I did.

Speaker 4 (25:31):
I did see him when I visit.

Speaker 2 (25:33):
But so I my husband just reunified with his dad
side of the family. Then he never knew who his
dad was. We did ancestry.

Speaker 1 (25:41):
We found him. We use a genealogist. The Hoosha Band
found his dad.

Speaker 2 (25:45):
He has like five siblings, a bunch of nieces and nephews.
And it's so funny because I do this work, so
I'm used to like families unifying and like the process.
So I was trying to prepare him, but like you said,
being that middle person, I'm not connected to it, so
I'm just looking from the outside and even like when
red flag show up, I might stay away from that person.

Speaker 1 (26:05):
That's reflax.

Speaker 2 (26:07):
That's a real right because I'm not connected. So I'm
just like, that might be your auntie. But that energy,
I like it, you know, And I think it is
important to have people on the outside who you know.
I know my husband, so when his family talked to me,
I can kind of give them like that buffer, like, hey,
this is who he is. Y'all met him in thirty
three years after his birth, so I've been with him
for half of that, and this is who he this like,

(26:30):
this is what makes him upset, this is what he likes,
is what he doesn't like. Because my husband, specifically, he's
very quiet. He's also kind of on the spectrum as well,
and he won't he'll just let things happen, like he
just doesn't. He's very care free, to the point where
he doesn't care even about how people treat him.

Speaker 1 (26:44):
And I always try to tell him, like, no, like
you do care.

Speaker 2 (26:47):
So I understand that that middle person is really really important.
And I love that you guys brought up the therapy fact,
because I think a lot of people overlook that in
their own personal lives. But also with reunification, always suggests families,
even whole families, go to therapy, even do two or
three family sessions, right with everybody, aunts, uncles, everybody who

(27:07):
can come, and you can do it virtually now right, No, listen,
if one of y'all got a professional job and you
get EAP, because y'alls somebody should have EAP, EAP will
cover virtual family sessions and you can get as many
people as you can in that virtual session to give
you four So check out your EAP programs. Sure, So
moving on, So we've talked about kind of like your

(27:30):
past a heart, We've talked about your past growing up.
I want to talk about more about how you guys
have navigated this reentification. Were there's some struggles? Was it
all easy? You guys seem very close to for not
be grown like raised together. So how has how did
that work? And I know you guys kind of touched

(27:50):
on a little bit, but where there are some things
where you had some growing pains or learning pains about
each other?

Speaker 4 (27:55):
Hmmm, good question.

Speaker 6 (27:57):
Do you want me to go?

Speaker 4 (27:58):
Yeah, you can start.

Speaker 7 (28:01):
I think the way it rolled out was really nice,
especially for me. I don't have kids, Like I was
like becoming a nomad person, so like, I think I
was also becoming so open to the world and new ideas,
and I was meeting people from all over the world.
And then I even traveled to like Southeast Asia, and
I was learning about Heart's life.

Speaker 4 (28:20):
And I've traveled a lot as well.

Speaker 7 (28:23):
Yeah, so I think we had this like really unique
connection that a lot of people don't ever get to experience, and.

Speaker 4 (28:29):
Especially within the family.

Speaker 3 (28:30):
Yeah, like no one else in the family lives Rochester,
like the Rochester.

Speaker 6 (28:35):
Home, Like it's a bubble.

Speaker 7 (28:36):
We all still live in Rochester, by the way, But
that's a whole other podcast that we could do. So
I think when I got to roll it out different
with Heart than my other siblings, And I was like,
when I get back home, I'm coming to go see
you meet your partner, like go see your life, meet
your parents. So like that was really cool, But there
was definitely growing pains, Like there was a lot around

(28:58):
the queer community that I was just starting to like
come into and learn about studying social work and like
more critical.

Speaker 6 (29:04):
Social work and learning history around racism.

Speaker 7 (29:07):
Like, so I was going through this like really major
growth period, and I really was admiring and looking up
to Heart as like my older sibling, which was really
inspiring because Heart was like a few years ahead of
me education wise, and I remember invited me to this
like ally training. So it was like challenging for me
because I was growing, but it was also so positive

(29:28):
from my experience. I also know, I talk a lot
and I take a lot of space, so that it's
been like the biggest thing between Heart and I. I
think from my like conscious perspective is like sometimes I
get really excited and hyper about things and I'm like,
wait a minute, Like I took too much, Like.

Speaker 6 (29:43):
Why don't you share it a little bit?

Speaker 7 (29:46):
So that's been a growth between us, like phone calls too, yeah, oh.

Speaker 1 (29:50):
My gosh, what about your heart?

Speaker 3 (29:52):
And I mean, what was really meaningful about what Mike
Michael just shared was that, like, so I was raised
with an adoptive brother from a different parents, also five
years younger, like almost the same birthday as Michael, which
is crazy, and we had such a different relationship and

(30:13):
like the perspective and experiences with adoption, and he's you know,
like kind of in a lot of the trauma still,
and that's been challenging. Like never we have the connection
of being adopted and growing up together but not close
as siblings, and so with Michael, it felt like like

(30:36):
that was it, Like I actually got to be an
older sibling to someone and like that was what I wanted.

Speaker 8 (30:43):
That was so meaningful too too, so like yeah, yeah, yeah,
I mean the first time I came to visit in
Santa Cruz, it was like a fair like in my mind,
it was just like such a positive like experience connecting
with heart and it was very healing and fun and
goofy and full.

Speaker 6 (31:02):
Of laughter and yeah, which is really nice. But it's
also sad like that I didn't.

Speaker 2 (31:06):
Get that you didn't get it growing up. Yeah, And
that's the part that we say. That's I say when
I talk about net positive experiences with adoption, I say,
at best, it's bittersweet because you're losing something, even if
you have good parents, like Heart sounds like you have
great parents, right, probably could be some improvement with that
religion stuff, but great overall, Right, but it's still just

(31:26):
bittersweet because look who you missed out on majority of childhood, right,
and a lot of folks don't understand. And this is
why I always say, even an adoption, sibling connections, if
safe and possible, are really important because there are memories
and foundations that you get with your siblings that are lifelong.
And it seems like you guys have been able to

(31:49):
because Michael, you were in you were still kind of
younger when y'all reconnected, and you were in a very
open spot in your life when you reconnected, So it
seems like you guys have solidified that. And sometimes that
relationship doesn't go to all the siblings.

Speaker 1 (32:01):
I know that I actually.

Speaker 2 (32:03):
Have a better relationship with my adopted brother who his parents,
And it's kind of weird because his parents be as
the fuck out of me and we reunified years later
because they left me on the street when I was fifteen.
I didn't know any of them until I was like
twenty five again, and I found him when I was
twenty five, and you know, he was like, I'm so sorry,
like my parents did that.

Speaker 1 (32:24):
But he was always nice to me.

Speaker 2 (32:25):
He was always my brother, and he and I now
have a super super close relationship. He just had his
second daughter or third daughter, no second daughter, and it
was her first birthday in Indiana.

Speaker 1 (32:35):
Similar things. Love his family races as hell, but they
love me though. So I went in.

Speaker 2 (32:44):
I had my hair flat iron, so if my hair
was like down to here, I wore like this bright
colorfood jacket. I was intentionally being very flab, more flamboy
than I normally is. And they came, but they pulled
up like w I They have like the Trump sticker
in their trucks that make it look like Trump's driving,
like that type of support, and they walked in and
they're like.

Speaker 1 (33:02):
Oh, hey, Carlos, how are you doing.

Speaker 2 (33:05):
And it was such a hard space to navigate because
when I was a kid, that was his.

Speaker 1 (33:11):
Mom's side of the family.

Speaker 2 (33:12):
We don't talk to our adoptive, my adoptive his dad's side,
because he was my brother's my dad's first son. So
my adoptive mother is his stepmother to just kind of
give you an idea. So we grew up together a
little bit, but it was like weekend summers, and then
the last two years he was full of time with us.
But his mom's side of the family, they are very conservative,
and it's really a hard thing to, you know, kind

(33:34):
of navigate. They're really nice to me.

Speaker 1 (33:35):
But I know, like.

Speaker 2 (33:36):
If you, if I, if I was just me without
you knowing me as a kid, then you probably.

Speaker 1 (33:41):
Wouldn't treat me this way.

Speaker 2 (33:43):
And that was also something that I had to struggle
with growing up in a white household. I was transracially adopted,
and I used to call myself the gay conservative atheist,
and now as at thirty three ar I'm like, what
the fuck is even that? That's a whole oxymora. But
I was trying to unpack. And I talk about this

(34:06):
when I do speeches and like educate a transfer to
adopted parents. It's really hard to grow up in a
conservative Christian Catholic households that have very conservative and right
wing ideals and then say like, oh, you're a good one.
So like when I would when we would see black
people on the news, they would say like, oh, there
are thugs, and then I would.

Speaker 1 (34:22):
Say, well, am I thugs? And then my grandpa was like, no,
you're one of us, and I'm like well, And I.

Speaker 2 (34:28):
Got adopted at eight, so like I already knew that
I really wasn't one of y'all, but I was trying
to be accepted. And it's something that I had to
unpack up into my mid twenties where it's really weird
to be a black person and go back to the
black community and.

Speaker 1 (34:42):
Not know nothing.

Speaker 2 (34:43):
Yeah, totally, not any of the music, not any of
the culture, not any of the language, as far as ave.
And also I tell people, please do give your children
biological connections and mirrors, even if it's not bodyological but cultural,
like they need to see someone who looks like them,
because oftentimes transracial adoptees, especially if we're raised by conservative Christians,

(35:04):
we end up being trojan horses to our own community.
So I look like you, but I'm not going to
vote like you, and I think i'm quote better than
you because that's what my parents have been telling me.
But the whole time, I'm just like you. Right, So
it's like they train, they raise you to vote against
your own personal interest. And it takes a lot of therapy,
it takes a lot of internal work, it takes a
lot of education totally. I went to college for African

(35:27):
American history studies so I could learn about me and
it was so enlightening. Then you know, to educate yourself afterwards,
but that's a whole different thing. I'm really happy that
you guys have had this connection. We're going to take
a quick break. When we come back, I want to
talk more about the connections with younger siblings, so your
other siblings, how that has I also want to talk

(35:48):
more about Michael, how your connection is with Hart's family,
because you know there are two different families here. We
talked a lot about yours biological families, but how's the
adoptive family taking it? And I'm going to talk more
about to heart about how you're the family likes what
you're doing now with your biological family. So we'll be
right back y'all. Until then, always shine your light. Hey
I Shiners, welcome back towards of this state. I want

(36:09):
to thank you guys for being here in supporting us,
but I want to remind you to please leave it
one two, three, four, five star rating and review and
that rating let us know if you like the show,
if you have learned anything from this show. Also, if
you guys would like to share your experience on the show,
click the link below and all the show notes. You
could also go to any links in my social media
bios and that will be a tab that says be
on the show. Sign out, fill out the Google form,

(36:32):
and my assistant will reach out to you to set
up a time. This show does not operate without others
lived experience, so I don't just sit here and talk
to myself, y'all. And so if you want to share
your experience, if you have, if you're an adoptee, an
adoptee sibling, I love that this with we have the
adoptee in their first sibling.

Speaker 1 (36:50):
That is awesome.

Speaker 2 (36:51):
And if you guys or lived experience and kinship, guardianship
or conservativeship, make sure you check out the links in
my bio, fill out the form and my team will
raked out to you so we can get to your
lift experience. I think that every experience is valid, and
I think the more that we talked to adoptees, the
better that we can see how we can fix some
of the issues a lot of the issues that happen

(37:12):
specifically with siblings separation. Also, like I said in the
beginning of the show, also while you're in the links
of my bio, check out our events.

Speaker 1 (37:19):
We have Las Vegas coming up March twenty second. It
is a.

Speaker 2 (37:22):
Free book signing, meet and greet Q and A and
then I do think we're going to dinner after that
as well. So if you guys are in the Vegas area,
if you know anybody in the Vegas area, send this
to them, send that link to them, and I hope
to see all there. So, without further ado, I want
to welcome back Michael and Harp. So, Michael, earlier, you
were saying that you got to meet Heart's family, the
adoptive families. How was that experience?

Speaker 6 (37:45):
Yeah?

Speaker 7 (37:45):
So was it the first time I visited that we second?
I think it was the second time. Yeah, so the
second time. So Heart and our relationship is growing a lot. Connection.
They were really helped me through school, which was amazing
because I'm first generation college student, so I didn't really
have a lot of guidance. So I was finally getting
like real legit guidance and it was awesome. So I

(38:08):
came back out to visit.

Speaker 6 (38:09):
And we went to go meet.

Speaker 7 (38:13):
Your parents, and it was a really interesting experience for
me because my family dynamic compared to theirs.

Speaker 6 (38:19):
And I remember, I don't.

Speaker 7 (38:20):
Know if I talked to you about this, but like
my first impression was walking in and I was pulled around.

Speaker 6 (38:25):
The corner by Heart.

Speaker 7 (38:26):
Their dad and he starts playing the piano and singing,
and I was just like, what is that? Like it
was just for me, it was like this, like it
felt like a fairy tale. Like I just never had
so much positivity in a welcoming space like that. And
we had like a really nice dinner, and you know,
there was like moments where like, yeah, I could see

(38:46):
that'd be really frustrating.

Speaker 1 (38:48):
And now I.

Speaker 2 (38:48):
Asked Heart this earlier. From their perspective, how was your
perspective did you compare? Like, dang, Heart, you got it,
you got you got a nice family growing up?

Speaker 1 (38:56):
Did you ever think like that, like I wish I
had a dad that would be It was.

Speaker 7 (39:01):
A very nice place, I mean with like incredible hiking
trails nearby, really cool food, and.

Speaker 6 (39:07):
The house was just incredible. And yeah, I felt very comfortable.

Speaker 7 (39:11):
And safe there, which for me wasn't the case. My
most of my life is feeling safe in environments.

Speaker 6 (39:19):
So I felt.

Speaker 7 (39:19):
Almost nurtured by their parents in a way that I
don't always experience. I'm starting to get to now with
my parents, but that's a whole other thing. In that
initial like first impression, it was really interesting and it
was healing for me in some ways.

Speaker 2 (39:35):
I bet bet like even though like you missed out
with cart growing up, did it give you.

Speaker 1 (39:40):
Any type of flight.

Speaker 2 (39:43):
Kind of what's the word I'm looking for, Like reassurance
like at least that they had a good life kind
of growing up like I missed out, but at least
they had a good life. Because I hear a lot
of the times, like when my siblings I had to
tell them they're like they thought that they like Carlos,
you got.

Speaker 1 (39:55):
Adopted, like you had an amazing life.

Speaker 2 (39:57):
I was I'm actually this, this, this is this, this,
and this happened and I ended up homeless. And my
siblings and like especially I was the youngest, so all
of my older siblings on my birth siblings are like, man,
I wish that we knew.

Speaker 1 (40:09):
I wish that we could do something.

Speaker 2 (40:11):
So how did it feel, Michael to know, like at
least my older sibling had you know, a pretty that
positive experience.

Speaker 7 (40:17):
I think if you asked me that a few years ago,
it would have been a very like simple answer. I
think now because heart and I communicate so much, which
I think is so important with this process in validating
experiences and realizing like trauma's trauma. It doesn't matter like
how intense or severe or you know, all those things.
I think I was very like relieved and excited that

(40:37):
Heart had the life that they had, but I also
had to acknowledge that, like there was a lot of
struggles that Heart went through and still is going through.
And that's something that I've been really trying to tie
into more in our relationship, is just learning more about
your experiences because Heart made a lot of space for
me early on because I was processing so much of
my trauma in my experiences, which was really like amazing

(40:59):
to have an older sibling doing that.

Speaker 6 (41:01):
But I think now it's really.

Speaker 7 (41:02):
Important for me to also hold more space for their
experiences because they helped me heal so much, like more
than I think I've ever told them how much they've
helped me heal.

Speaker 2 (41:11):
I love that, and I love that, and you know,
I'm going to say that clip to my siblings because
they need to listen to you because they just they
see they're like, okay, you have they they listen, but
they don't see. I don't know if that makes sense
to you, but they listen to me, but they don't see,
so that from their point of view, they're like, okay, well,
like you went to college and you had a good

(41:31):
life and now you're rich and you have all of
this stuff. And I'm like, but do you not see
what I had to do? And I think that idea
of not I call it the trauma Olympics. Everyone's trauma
is valid. And I think a lot of times, especially
with siblings who've both gone through traumatic experiences, were already
like kind of like sibling rivals. We're already naturally competitive

(41:53):
against each other. So it's like, oh, well I had
to go through this, this and this. And I remember
when I first reunified, my siblings would say, oh, you
look got lucky and adopted, and I was like, what
these white people.

Speaker 1 (42:03):
Made me know? On rice and I was sucking teedies
at nine?

Speaker 2 (42:06):
You got to stay with mom, right, But then they
would flip and be like, well, we we were poor,
we couldn't eat, and this, that and the other. So, like
Michael said, I had to get to a point where
I had to accept that their trauma was their trauma
and regardless of what happened to me, that was their
set of traumas and it was valid, and I need
them to do the same for me, they have started

(42:26):
to a little bit. My brother, he just got out
of prison. He imprisoned him so much good at the
last time. He's been three times. This time worked because
he didn't the first few times did not. This time
he actually you could hear it in his voice. And
I was on the phone with him the other day,
and he has this thing with accountability, and I'm a
very accountable person. I believe, like, yes, our childhood and

(42:47):
our past has affected our future, but it doesn't have to.
If you're the main denominator and all your issues. Maybe
it's not the numerator. Maybe it is the denominator that's
the problem.

Speaker 1 (42:58):
And do that math problem. You're like, probably get better.

Speaker 2 (43:00):
And I was talking to him and he was like
he took inhountability for something. And he said, and usually
what he would say was you don't understand because you
don't have you you you got you had a great life,
or you had white parents, and this time he was like, no,
I can't understand where you're coming from, even though I
don't agree.

Speaker 1 (43:15):
And I was like, oh, okay, cool.

Speaker 2 (43:17):
So it was it was huge, and you know, and
I love how Michael just said, like leave space for
your adopted sibling, because a lot of people, because society,
they say adoptions beautiful and it's this fantastic, grandiose thing.
Adoptees we deal with that, and it's really hard to
deal with that from your own siblings, especially if there
was any type of trauma. And we all know that
adoption starts with trauma. It starts with maternal separation trauma.

(43:40):
Do you think Michael and Heart do you think that
y'all's relationship has come from And I know, Michael, you
just started getting into therapies and like social work type things,
but because that was already kind of your interest, do
you think that that has helped y'all's relationship growth so
strong Because people just a lot of some people like
get over it, trauma doesn't exist. But when you have
two people who actually do know that, like trauma does exist,
it's a lot easier to navigate that relationship. Do you

(44:02):
think that that that's kind of a cause that you
both are wanting to understand trauma and that is also part.

Speaker 1 (44:08):
Of your work.

Speaker 6 (44:09):
Let you speak to that a little bit.

Speaker 4 (44:11):
Definitely.

Speaker 3 (44:12):
I think it's it's allowed our relationship to deepen the
most I feel most not like it's a competition, but
most connected with Mike because of the work that he's
done on himself and intentionally trying to communicate and understand
each other and prioritizing like knowing that mental health is

(44:35):
so important coming from that same perspective, and yeah, I
think it's I think it's been the biggest thing that's like, yeah,
brought us close.

Speaker 1 (44:43):
And how's your relationship with your other.

Speaker 4 (44:45):
Siblings, I'd say, let's see, it's different.

Speaker 3 (44:50):
So we've got three other siblings and most of them
have come to visit me in California, which has been
Those have been like the one on one and kind
of things because when I go on to Michigan with
everyone at once and the first time, it was like
so overwhelming and I didn't really have much support for myself,

(45:12):
you know, going into reunion and like I stayed with
them for like a week like in their house and
it was a lot. So having those like you know,
when when Katie and her son came to visit, we
got to have some good talks, like you know, there's

(45:33):
like some some foundation there.

Speaker 4 (45:35):
And then with John, like we got to have our
like a little bit of time connecting.

Speaker 5 (45:43):
And then with Monica.

Speaker 3 (45:44):
She hasn't come out to visit yet, but I feel
like again with like she's starting to like go to
therapy and look at her own stuff, so it's making
more space for us to have a relationship. And so yeah,
like I feel like our relationship is growing the most
right now. And also like it's been interesting to like

(46:06):
navigate with their kids too.

Speaker 2 (46:08):
I like, I'm gonna be my next question is how
is it because with my husband, he just like his
nieces and nephews, they just like they told him that
was their uncle and they're just like but they're just like,
I don't know this dude.

Speaker 1 (46:19):
I'm like, you don't know him either, So how is
it with your nieces and them?

Speaker 5 (46:27):
I mean, I feel like with Monica, she's made more
of a point to be like, this is your like
we came up with a gender neutral.

Speaker 4 (46:35):
Term like zz I like that auntie uncle thing as easy.

Speaker 3 (46:40):
So I think she's been a little bit more of like, yeah,
like this is this is like our family, and you know,
explaining they live in California and and I'm not quite
sure with I just don't talk to the other two
as much. So yeah, i'd say I don't know I
feel like union is not like a one time thing.

(47:02):
It's very much evolving like these relationships, as relationships do.

Speaker 2 (47:06):
But yeah, they just had a longer time to get
to know each other and you just kind of started
twenty five percent of the way in, right, so you
you got to grow with them as well.

Speaker 1 (47:17):
Has y'all families like.

Speaker 2 (47:18):
Mom, dad, mom dad, have y'all like done like a
big family group with the adopted family and the biological family,
because my family never did that, thank god.

Speaker 1 (47:26):
Yeah, but about y'all.

Speaker 3 (47:29):
Yeah, it was important to me, Like that was two
years ago, right, Yeah, two years ago when my birth
mother came out to visit me as an adult for
the first time with Mike and Trisha, his wife, that like,
I got us together. We had dinner at my parents' house,
and it was a very rushed thing because they're like

(47:51):
travel plans and we had like two or three hour
two hours together, which there.

Speaker 7 (47:56):
Was funny moments in that, like having dinner because my
mom and their were like starting to get religious on
us and we were like rolling our eyes or so
it felt like we were.

Speaker 6 (48:06):
Like really doing the sibling thing, like God, damn it,
here we.

Speaker 1 (48:08):
Go, here we go again.

Speaker 4 (48:11):
Yeah, it was.

Speaker 3 (48:12):
I don't know, I feel kind of it was important
to me, but it was kind of overwhelming the whole thing.

Speaker 2 (48:19):
So I wish that I probably should have gotten my
biological well, I don't speak to my adopta family, but
like even like my siblings, I'm trying to do this year,
get my siblings all together. So like my white brother
and then my black brothers, I want us all to
like be brothers, but that has never happened. So I
was really it's kind of good to hear that even
if it was like two hours of successful and it

(48:40):
can be successful, that's good to hear. And yeah, I
always encourage people to try to with unification, try to
get your family together because life is not promised.

Speaker 1 (48:49):
And you know, I wish I could.

Speaker 2 (48:51):
I would love to see if my mother, my birth mother,
was still alive. I would pay to see her meet
my adopted mother.

Speaker 1 (48:56):
I would I would give a year's salary for years
salary to watch that heart.

Speaker 2 (49:03):
And Michael, is there anything that we didn't cover that
you guys wanted to make sure that we covered and
that the audience knew about yours communication or yours families.

Speaker 6 (49:12):
See, I don't know, I mean, I feel like there's
so much that could be covered. Yeah, which is the
hard part.

Speaker 3 (49:20):
Yeah, I mean I think to go back a little
bit too, just some things that come up. I mean,
I'm still in therapy and working on you know, always
working on stuff, so like there's still things that come

(49:41):
up when you know, like my birth mom is like,
I'm so proud of Mike, especially for all he's been
through a little bit of that trauma Olympics thing.

Speaker 4 (49:50):
It just like comes up and it's.

Speaker 1 (49:52):
Like what you've been through. I gotta talked, but you
have to be like and you're conscious that you're.

Speaker 2 (49:57):
Like, like he has had his own struggles and I too,
throw but is that internal like, well you know what
that is?

Speaker 1 (50:04):
I think because I get that sometimes too.

Speaker 2 (50:06):
That's that's that that adopt that core adoption traumas, Like
you just hit it right at the core because it's
just like no matter how much therapy, no matter how
much anything, that's all that's the primal womb right there.
That maternal separation is that primal wound.

Speaker 1 (50:25):
It's strong.

Speaker 2 (50:25):
It can't get strong, but it does take a lot
of therapy and a lot of know with all right
and being awharewithal of understanding other people's traumas. Yeah, what
about you, Michael, what was there a question just something
that like really important that you wanted to just make
sure that that came through through during this interview.

Speaker 6 (50:45):
I mean, it's really cool where we're being interviewed right now.
So we're in Joshua Tree.

Speaker 7 (50:49):
We have made this a tradition in our life together
with and it's growing, like we have more friends that
do this with us every year. This is my fifth
year and I think it's your third year.

Speaker 6 (51:00):
So it's a really cool like meeting point for us.

Speaker 7 (51:03):
Like we have other meeting points throughout the year that
we check in, but this is like consistent. We spend
a decent amount of time together. And it's cool to
have like a tradition that we're creating. Yeah, family tradition, Yeah,
and new rituals. And I think Heart and I are
really trying to explore, you know, some of our ancestry

(51:23):
and like cultural identities that have been whitewashed and you know,
created more problems in America because whiteness is an issue.

Speaker 6 (51:30):
And so yeah, I think it's.

Speaker 7 (51:33):
Really just with Heart and I, it's really cool to
have somebody that has like the level of education that
we both seeked out, so we have a similar language
that we can bond around, which isn't always.

Speaker 6 (51:45):
Common different support systems.

Speaker 7 (51:48):
Yeah, so it's just been really great, and I think
I would encourage anybody who's really trying to create connection
to be very intentional with your time together. Really try
to like create reciprocity. That is what I'm trying to
do in all my relationships. Make sure conversations are circular
and you're actively trying to be there and listen, not
just like responding.

Speaker 2 (52:08):
Getting My last question is how does this experience, how
does that affected jaws work?

Speaker 3 (52:12):
Oh gosh, I mean I got into social work before
I came out of the fog or into my adopted consciousness,
But I think that was like a motivating part of it,
like you said, like getting to know who I am,
and like I think it's I've become more of an
advocate for adoptees in foster care, like in my work

(52:33):
and raising awareness in my work and in my life
just talking with people because I can understand it in
a different way now And it's amazing how much, like
how many people are impacted by these things that we
can't know that, but like you talk to five people

(52:53):
and there's a good chance one or two of them
are adopted or a foster former foster youth, or like
know someone firth mother, like adoptive parents.

Speaker 2 (53:03):
It's so ingrained in our society. Like think about it.
Name any movie. It's almost impossible to name a movie
or a show that does not have a subplot of
adoption or foster care. Read single thing like Batman, he
was kinshipcare right, every Spider Man, Kinship Carey, every superhero,
every movie, and when you start looking for it, you're

(53:25):
just like, it's everywhere. Yeah, And that's I think that
that was a subliminal way for these billion twenty five
billion dollar agencies to really lobby, because they do lobby
in our laws and our media.

Speaker 1 (53:37):
And our movies.

Speaker 2 (53:38):
Right when you when you think adoption, everyone the first
thing they think is the blind side, No bitch, And
they lied to that boy.

Speaker 1 (53:45):
That's not even true.

Speaker 2 (53:46):
They stole his money, right, So I think it's I
think what you just said was really really, really powerful.

Speaker 1 (53:52):
Michael, what about you?

Speaker 6 (53:53):
Could you repeat the question again? It was so what was.

Speaker 1 (53:57):
My original question that I hard? Do you remember my
original question?

Speaker 4 (54:00):
It was how has how has this experience.

Speaker 1 (54:03):
In your work?

Speaker 6 (54:05):
Oh? Our work?

Speaker 1 (54:06):
Thank you?

Speaker 7 (54:06):
So I when I reunified with HEART, I was doing
clinical social work, like that was my goal at the time,
but then I actually ended up taking a different turn
in social work and I went very macro like systems level,
and I studied global social work, and now I'm a
researcher for a center that does equity research. And I

(54:29):
think from that like grounding perspective and growing and like
interpersonal relationships and learning about these things has been so
beneficial in the macro space that is not common in
research centers. A lot of people that only went macro
their whole career don't have that like grounded perspective in
the interpersonal aspect of that work, which I think is

(54:50):
so crucial to it. So I try to really bring
those like relational aspects into research, which is can be
a struggle but also can be extremely waring, especially with
the type of work our center does now.

Speaker 2 (55:03):
And research is really important because y'all's research becomes our lives.
And I try to tell people that in my line
of work, I do a lot of keynote speaking, I
do a lot of conferences, and I was speaking at
the AACAP this year, and these are doctors and psychiatrists
and all they do is work around data, data, data,
And one part of my speech was this, this research

(55:24):
is true, Yes, this research is real, but this data
these are human lives. And I love how you said
connecting you know, the global to the micro of like, yes,
we can look at this.

Speaker 1 (55:36):
Research, but remember these are real people.

Speaker 2 (55:40):
These are and I think that that's what gets lost
a lot, especially in psychiatry specifically, everyone's just looking at data,
data data. I'm like, these are people, people, people, Please
remember that. So I love that you're into research. I
hope to see your name somewhere where I can give
like I know him and thank you for the research. Really, oh,
save me to link, save me to link.

Speaker 1 (55:58):
I love them. I would love to see the research.
Yeah all right, so I asked, go ahead, I'll my.

Speaker 4 (56:03):
Thing to the work.

Speaker 3 (56:05):
So I think it's like very tied to my personal experience.
Part of like I came. I started like coming out
of the fog a few It.

Speaker 4 (56:14):
Was like September twenty two.

Speaker 5 (56:18):
I think, and I it was so overwhelming, just like
having these like having so much grief but not having
words for it, and so part of me like creating
support for myself was creating the Adoptee Art Circle.

Speaker 1 (56:35):
Yeah, thank you tell me about the art circle to.

Speaker 4 (56:38):
Go back to the circle.

Speaker 3 (56:39):
So, yeah, I started a virtual community through I reached
out to some different adoptee Facebook groups. I hadn't had
many like adoptee friends, like intentionally connecting in that way
until this point, and so I got a bunch of
people who were interested and we started meeting every week
making art learn grief just with adoptees, and it was

(57:03):
really powerful. And like I've you know, facilitated groups. I
love group work, but being with adoptees and feeling so
seen and understood and these experiences and being able to
start processing them together in a way that actually can
explore these themes, like not through language because I've been

(57:24):
doing talk therapy, but in a pre verbal way to
address preverbal trauma and tap into other parts of ourselves.
And doing that together in a group was super powerful.

Speaker 1 (57:36):
So we meet.

Speaker 3 (57:39):
You're mating for about a year and we still have
a Facebook group. Some people post I'm wanting to shift
into doing more in person things, so hopefully starting that.

Speaker 4 (57:50):
Kind of you I'm in central coast San Cruis like
the Bay area, just like Weston.

Speaker 1 (57:58):
How far is that from San Diego?

Speaker 3 (58:00):
More like Sancisco, San Francisco?

Speaker 1 (58:03):
What about like Sacramento?

Speaker 4 (58:06):
Yeah, just a bit like it's like three hours from Sacramento.

Speaker 2 (58:10):
Okay, because I'm trying we're trying to do We're doing
one stop in San Diego for the book tour, but
I was trying to see if I can connect with
you because doing in person art, because we have a tour,
I'll have a bunch of adoptees and foster youth and doing.

Speaker 1 (58:22):
The art would be a really cool thing.

Speaker 2 (58:23):
So I'll actually reach out to you later and see
if we can make you one of my stops. That way,
I can do the book tour stop and then we
can do the art. That'd be so cool because I
want to do that too.

Speaker 3 (58:32):
Yeah, I was thinking of reaching out to you about
this too. Or two we have places we can host.

Speaker 1 (58:37):
So no, that'd be dope.

Speaker 2 (58:38):
So well, I'll reach out to you after this awesome
So Heart and Michael, I want to say thank you
so much for coming on the War to This Date podcast.
We do ask all of our guests one last question
every single show. And that question is what's one piece
of advice that you would give someone in your similar experience?
So for heart, for you, it's what's one piece of
advice you would give an adoptee? And Michael, for you

(58:59):
would be what's one piece of advice you would give
a birth sibling. You can go ahead first of a.

Speaker 5 (59:04):
Heart, Okay, I think my advice to adoptees or.

Speaker 3 (59:08):
Former foster youth going into reunion with siblings would be too.

Speaker 4 (59:16):
Like pace yourself.

Speaker 3 (59:17):
You're not going to be able to get to know
each other right away, Like, don't put the pressure on
yourself to that it looks a certain way, don't have
certain expectations.

Speaker 4 (59:27):
It will unfold.

Speaker 3 (59:30):
Yeah, that's what I would say.

Speaker 4 (59:33):
Yeah, that's been a huge thing.

Speaker 5 (59:35):
I just keep coming back to, like, we only have
this time together and I can like, you know, but
the yeah, the relationship is in process and unfolding to you.

Speaker 6 (59:45):
Good for you, Michael, I mean I echo that a
little bit.

Speaker 7 (59:48):
I think that at first, like we would just like
trying to talk about everything and get to know everything,
and we'd have very long, exciting conversations that would be
really draining because it's like.

Speaker 6 (59:58):
That's emotionally taxing to talk about.

Speaker 7 (01:00:00):
These things, you know, but yeah, realize like create spaces
together to where you can like connect and bond, create
rituals and traditions. I think has really been amazing for us.
And yeah, like if you're if there's a distance, like
find virtual ways to connect. That's more than just like
catching up on a phone call. I think having experiences.

Speaker 6 (01:00:22):
Together has been some of the coolest growth opportunities for us.

Speaker 7 (01:00:26):
They sometimes in our society it's mostly catching up all
the time.

Speaker 6 (01:00:29):
So get out there and like play.

Speaker 7 (01:00:31):
And draw or go on heights or you know, find
things that you both want to experience together or try
something new together.

Speaker 1 (01:00:38):
Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:00:39):
I just recently started traveling with my siblings and one
of my siblings my brother, and he was like, I
want to do this every year. So we've been making it.
We were in our third year. He either comes for
Christmas or we'll do My birthday is July. So I
really think it's important. Like you said, I think you
guys are right start making those family traditions. And I
have one last question that a lot of people, especially adoptees.

(01:01:01):
I guess heart, this is more for you. But Michael,
you can answer as well, was remuification worth it? Well,
not a lot of adoptees are afraid that you you
may not know what you find, so in your experience,
doesn't worth it?

Speaker 4 (01:01:13):
Yeah? Completely, completely?

Speaker 7 (01:01:17):
Yeah, Yeah, I mean this has been like one of
the coolest things in my life, and it's one of
my favorite things to tell people.

Speaker 6 (01:01:23):
I feel like it's yeah, it's it's really amazing.

Speaker 7 (01:01:27):
And it's worth like, you know, hard conversations and because
all that stuff is just growth as a person, and
I think that's really how we grow as people is
through tough conversations and internal reflection and having the hard
conversations and really trying to see and get to.

Speaker 6 (01:01:41):
Know people on a deep level. Yeah.

Speaker 7 (01:01:43):
So, I this has been amazing and I'm like, is
there anybody else hiding?

Speaker 6 (01:01:47):
I'm like, Mom, what's going on?

Speaker 1 (01:01:49):
Listen?

Speaker 2 (01:01:49):
Listen my brother My brother popped up thirty three years later,
so you know, you never know.

Speaker 1 (01:01:57):
You never know. Well, thank you guys again for coming
on the Wards of the Day podcast.

Speaker 2 (01:02:01):
I appreciate you guys sharing your lift experience and sharing
your reunification experience. I think this was a first for
a reunification with ooter siblings, so I really appreciate it,
and listeners, please make sure that you check out.

Speaker 1 (01:02:13):
All the links in the bio preces.

Speaker 2 (01:02:15):
Make sure you continue to support the podcast, and like
I say.

Speaker 1 (01:02:18):
Every week, continue to shine your life.

Speaker 2 (01:02:20):
And like Michael and Heart did today, Shining Light will
hopefully educate other siblings or even foster and adopted parents
on how they can create this type of relationship earlier.

Speaker 1 (01:02:30):
That would be my only thing.

Speaker 2 (01:02:31):
I wish that this happened for y'all when y'all are younger, right,
And I'm so happy that you guys have each other now.
But as a person who's lost a sibling, time is
not guaranteed. So if you are listening to this and
you are an adoptive parent or a birth parent, try
to connect to your children right because ultimately your children
are going to be therefore each other after you pass
right hopefully, fingers clossed. That's how life works, hopefully. But

(01:02:55):
I want to pray to thank you guys again and
light shiners, always shining your light. You never know who
you might be like adding to wait for I'll see
you guys next week